What it's been doing, where we're at revenue versus expense, so you know what the deficit is because we have one, um, and then our priorities for how we're gonna is a lot of that deficit because of the property tax thing that we got screwed on last a million dollars of it is, but yeah, a good about almost half of it probably the total deficit looks like it's all exploit too.

Depends we it just depends on how it and how you calculate it.

Well, no, it depends on where the sales tax is.

Apparently, so in my 18 years of doing it, it's never been I've never seen it year over year down like it was the year before and then this year, but but all I'm saying is John has a lot of information, but I just want to get to the most important information, which and I let them ask questions, John.

But we're thinking what's the revenues, go over the sales tax issues, and then let's get to what our budget deficit is and how we might close the gap.

Okay, so that'd be item number one.

Then we'll go to facilities, talk about public works building potential site where we think fire department needs um, and then we need to talk about this constant town center pressure about our 10 acres and have a good discussion about where you all are at with the town center, so we can be public and clear.

If the if the issue is you want to do a town center, then after you hear the budget discussion, I won't know how.

But if you do, then we can move.

If not, let's make it clear that we're sitting on that land until we are 100% ready to do something, and we don't even know what it is yet.

Okay, go ahead, John.

Give us the revenues and the sales tax numbers.

All right.

Um, so I have lots of slides.

Really, I think Mike, I would say what do you want to know?

What do you want to see?

So let's have property tax to start with.

Um, this is just a projection of where property tax.

Well, it's not a projection, this is actual the where property tax has been.

So you can see property tax is meant to be steady.

Um, it remains the same unless we do a truth and taxation hearing.

So you can see 2025, there's a jump.

Um, 2026, the that decreases because the bond falls off.

We did not pass that to be able to stay flat.

So then next year we project basically a flat budget again.

Um can we recover that 900 grand that we lost this last year?

We can do another truth and tax.

Yes, we can go through truth and taxation to be able to do that.

Yes.

Well, depending on what the legislature but this projection does show that new correct.

Uh this projection just shows if we remain the same, what would it look like?

So without any property tax increase.

Catherine, for your benefit, the truth in taxation we did in 26 was only to the amount of money everyone was already paying on the bond we bought all the open space with.

So it wasn't like it was a new tax increase because it could have gone away like you did, but it wasn't you weren't gonna feel it because you're already paying it.

Now you got to not pay it.

I was in the truth and tax interest.

I remember yeah.

So this is just a historical look at property tax rates across the the Salt Lake uh County.

Um you can see that it always is a general downward trend.

Um the upward bumps are when uh individual entities do uh property tax increases, so you can kind of follow that trend.

Draper is the blue line at the very bottom of the page, second from the bottom there.

We have the low second lowest.

So Buffdale is the lowest.

Uh we are second lowest.

But we have a fire department, they don't.

So we have our sandy is they don't.

Okay, correct.

They rent one.

Oh, and the school districts are high.

So school districts are your top five if I if I counted right.

Um when we now Harriman, look at Harriman's, and the reason Harriman is like it is, is Harriman.

Well, in and I think the way Riverton does it too.

Maravin and Riverton.

So, in order, in instead of having a blended in property tax that pays for all the bills, they're they'll tell you we have a really low property tax, but we have these special districts that cover public safety, a fire one and a police one, and those are of course above.

When you add it all together, they have higher property tax than we all do, but they make you feel better about it by telling you X amounts in public safety and the other parts around the rest of the city.

I was interested in talking to you about going that direction.

Um, primarily because I think the public, our biggest increases are typically in public safety, both personnel and equipment.

I think the public appreciates good public safety, at least it seems like our citizens do.

If we were to separate it out, we could get to a point where public safety was carrying itself with its own levies.

But that would be a big increase to get there.

So you could have a fire one and a police one like Clinton has pays in airman, right?

Like and then you could have a small or you maybe even eliminate the general fund one, but I don't think we'd want to do that.

I think we want to have a small general fund one that covered the rest of the city, but put public safety.

It also puts the chiefs in the position of when they need an increase, they gotta come in front of the public and make the case.

It's different.

I'm assuming that's what they do in Harriman.

They have the public safety come and make their case.

Which we were making our case for public safety anyway, but that's just what how do you guys feel about looking at that model?

I like it because it makes it more clear, it's transparent on where it's going.

But so this slide shows our current rate is 0.000936.

Um, that brings in a projected amount of 10 million one eighty-six.

Um, you can see the deficit, right?

So, what would it take to get there just strictly by property tax increase?

Um, you can see where we could find well, where we would have to go to get to the point where we would break even.

Um, and that's at this at the 50% increase line.

Now take that aside, and if you looked at a property tax specifically for police, um, the police budget is currently 13,5625.

Our current rate wouldn't even cover just police.

So if you if you did that, you would need to do an increase that would basically take you to point one, two, four, six, two just to cover police.

Um obviously we would look at the general operations and we could decrease that one, it would not need to stay this high.

Um I can't remember which one does completely zero.

I think Harriman does completely zero for general operations.

I think really yeah, it is Riverton does complete zero.

Are you talking increasing a sales tax or property tax?

Oh, why does that say that?

I don't know who wrote sales tax right there.

That would be me.

But that is property tax.

So property tax is at.00936.

I've always felt that covering police and fire out of sales tax.

No, we have to pull some out of the sales tax revenue because it's not really funded from property tax.

I've always thought that that was a risk and venture because when we see these depths in sales tax, it could potentially fall away off and leave a hole in our public safety budget.

I think there is a good argument to be made that it should be fully covered from property tax, it's a more secure source.

So we would need to have two our public safety fund that raised about 22 million dollars to cover public safety.

Right?

15, 13, and 7.

Am I doing the math wrong?

Right.

And that rate, so the rate for police would be 0.101246.

The rate for fire would be slightly lower than our current, which is 0.000734.

Combined uh 19.7, 19.8, if I did my math right.

Um, that represents about a hundred percent, 112% increase in property taxes.

You're at nine and then rank.

So how did Ruberton and Harriman do it?

Did they at some point just make the big switch?

They were in the so when they were part of UK UPD and UFA, which they're still part of UFA, but part of UPD, UPD created a service area.

Okay.

And so when they left UPD, they left that service area also, and basically substituted their service area for the one that had been um in the city.

So it had always been a different bucket.

Yeah, okay.

Which was not the case for us because when we were getting service through UFA, yeah, it was a contracted fire service.

So we were not part of a taxing entity for fire service.

It was we were just paying a contracted rate from general operations, and you can see that.

But that worked out way better for us.

How did you charge how did you charge the residents?

Clint.

That worked out way better for us over factored into that property tax, or was it it?

This is a lot less money.

I mean, we can go back to the property tax rates, and they were it was just part of that property tax rate.

It wasn't itemized separately, it was just nope.

Right.

And then when we brought it back here, there was enough that we've been sending it.

Right, and then I mean if you look at this graph, right?

This this graph is showing the expenses by category, and you can see this is this these are contracted rates, and then well, that doesn't really okay.

I got a ni let me go to a different slide.

Sorry, I got way too many slides in here.

Well, that was showing the revenue broken.

That was the revenue, I want the expense side.

So let's go expense by type.

That's actually this.

That's not this is a general fund revenue.

I thought I had an expense one.

I wouldn't have to do that.

No, but this is helpful because this showed us how we're getting our budget.

But the personal services, what we basically did was we took it from a contracted rate and moved it to a personal services, meaning to personnel.

And it was equivalent.

Yeah, I mean it was a fairly cost neutral project.

But you can see our sales tax is just growing generally speaking over time.

Which is kept us out of big taxes.

Yeah, and 26 and 27 still look healthy.

Yeah.

Um sales tax.

But I was thinking what we ought to do is if we want to move to the public safety bucket, we ought to when we do a treatment taxation, we ought to talk to the public and say, look, we're gonna do an increase this year.

We're trying to move to this direction.

It's gonna take us you know a few years.

We're gonna have to we want to get it to where it covers itself, but every as we increase the public safety bucket, we can lower some of the other rate.

But what do you think about that and get people on the idea of getting to the property tax covering it eventually?

I mean, obviously we can't raise it a hundred percent, but it wouldn't need to be that high, right?

But it I'd be curious to know are we lowering something else simultaneously.

So it would just be how we message that out of the way.

So you're you're you're lowering your general property tax rate and creating the service district and creating service districts that have their own particular assessment, so you can zero those out.

You can leave your general rate a little higher if you want to generate a little bit more revenue for general operations.

But the idea but the idea is you lower this as you bring on somebody their public safety service areas.

So if you look at this chart, what I've tried to do is take everyone's combined rates.

So if somebody has um UFA as a contracted service, or if they have their own fire service, I have added those together.

So you can see here Harriman, nice top line right there.

Um that's a combined rate because that's the Herriman Police Service District and the Harriman Fire Service District, as well as their general operations rate.

So the combination of those three rates.

And it's safe to say it's double ours.

So yeah.

Is that what that shows?

Almost triple.

Yeah.

I struggle to understand why if they are their way.

Cost so much more, and they're like charging unless we're trying to like this doesn't seem to me like a way to keep costs reasonable.

I so it's just a way to get people, our taxpayers to be paid with higher taxes, basically, is that this well it's a way to make sure that the police and the fire expenses are always covered reliably through property tax instead of being dependent on our sales tax revenue.

Because on those years when sales tax takes a nose dive, it moves us sometimes in the merch to cover those expenses.

We're we're never gonna say to our public we're gonna lay off five firefighters and five police officers, because one, they won't stand for it, they won't want it, and it won't are it'd make our fire response ineffective, it'd make our police department ineffective.

I mean, the other alternative is we just say, okay, we we've got to have a big tax increase next year, we've got to do one, you know, every other year for a while to get where we're you know covering more of it because I think people and I guess when you say it's just a better way of telling it to them, people care about public safety enough to pay for it.

They always are suspect when we're raising taxes and saying it's for public safety, right?

Are we really doing public safety or are we doing sending the mayor to Barbados for his annual conference?

Whatever else, you know, you know what I mean?

Whereas if you have the police chief and the fire chief coming in for the increase because they need another fire truck, or we need three more people or whatever, people know it's going right to there.

So you cannot impose a public safety fee, which is how UPD originally had done done it.

Okay.

I was at that public meeting when they first proposed that it was it was a who and then so but you can a service area can well our our service area, TRSSD has a property tax.

You know, they have a they have a tax rate that they charge everybody in the service area, and so it'd be the same with public safety.

So the question really to your point is are you more comfortable doing a general tax increase or targeted tax increase?

What would be better for residents?

Yeah, or they I think just looking at those numbers, I'm uncomfortable just uh trying to move toward the Harriman Riverton route where we're just charging a lot more taxes.

Do you think like I want to fund our but I but I think it's really interesting to look at that and look where we are.

I don't know that we need to be at the bottom.

But I I don't know if I I am not excited about trying to get to the top.

I don't think that's the point.

Yeah, it's just like Germany doesn't have a lot of sales tax revenue.

Right.

So that's why they have to, you know, you have to have money somewhere.

So you know, we don't have to do as much as a waste.

So that's why that's the one.

This doesn't take into account total budget, like for the city with the city.

That's why you go back to show that slide that's our revenue by type.

Um here's where I don't know is where where would you lower your tax because you know here's all the different areas we're getting funded.

Where would we lower our fees or property tax to balance this out because sales tax is such a big part of our budget?

Right.

Well, I mean am I making sense when I'm saying I just don't know where you'd lower it.

Just not sure if it's the better direction to go to have these districts, or if it's better to just suck it up and go to West Valley City model where you're doing a general property tax every single year to keep up with inflation.

Because that's where we're falling off.

Like we're waiting 17 years between tax increases, and we're not keeping up with basic expenses.

I mean, we all are failing the pinch from the grocery to home remodeling, right?

Like we need to have some extra money coming in to just keep up with expenses.

And I know no one wants to do food and taxation every single year, but I actually think that might be the most transparent way to do it.

And if it's just a nominal percentage.

It's just a nominal percentage.

And it would probably be rough at first, but after you're like three years into it, people are like, oh, I understand my taxes are only going up $22.

Well, one of the proposals our legislature has right there.

Well, I don't know where it's, I think it's fallen off out of favor, but I'm not sure.

What's falling out of favor is the increase in the uh residential exemption.

So so there's not unanimity between the houses and there's not unanimity within the Senate and then how one of their things was they were they were gonna cap the max increase of five percent a year.

Well, that would force every single city to do if you didn't do five percent a year from that minute forward, you would go bankrupt because you have to get takes us a decade to catch up with five percent a year with our current deficit at our current deficit.

So you so you kind of see the our our revenue source of we're living high on the sales tax for our all our funds.

Go to the let's go now to the um the budget deficit from how we're how we're do you'd like you understand the revenue side see where any questions about that?

Just keep for a minute and think about whether you want to switch to the the districts.

Maybe it does make sense just keep going the way we're doing it.

It does ch make it more challenging for us to switch to the districts over Harman because of our sales tax base.

We have such a strong sales tax base.

I mean, we you wouldn't necessarily have to fund everything, a hundred percent of your police and fire through through a service district.

You could say we want to fund 70 or whatever percent uh we wanted to justify through that.

And and that would be the op that would be a different option on how to be able to do that.

When I talk to Harriman and Riverton, they're both they're both like I would do it again in a heartbeat.

So they they love the model and would continue to do it.

Now they're at a point where they're either they promised residents they weren't gonna raise it, they weren't gonna raise those rates ever, but they're at a point where they either need to raise them or they're not gonna be able to do that.

So they're currently funding a little bit of it from their sales tax and other tax other, you know, revenue streams.

So the general fund is chipping in for their police and fire.

I definitely not the intent.

Which was not necessarily their intent, but they're like we can't justify it's it's to your point, right?

All of your points that sales tax really there's a portion of sales tax that's there because of police and fire.

Right.

And really whatever that percent would feel like it is, then that should really cover a portion of police and fire.

But we'd we'd want to do a study on what that percent should be and what it looks like, and then you could come up with what that dollar figure we need for police and fire is.

I hear Catherine's concern though, but it looks like a card trick where we're shuffling things around.

Yes, which is why that to get more money to get more money to justify getting more money to raise taxes, but I think that that annual increase is the message.

Like the annual increase.

I feel like that's a better morality.

Then go into this districts and have the expensive I think the messaging is clearer doing a small, a very small annual.

Tell you what, I've been to so many meetings since I got elected with Riverton officials where they're like, we don't have property tax.

So we have the like they brag it up and down, but it's just not true.

But yeah, it's not really true.

The challenge we've got, and I'll and I'll this isn't picking up public safety, but it's indicative, and quite frankly, public works.

Back when I worked at UPD, we were buying uh explorers for 27,000 dollars.

Now that same vehicle is 605, 65, fire trucks claim you can you can attest to it it's almost like the basics to even do the job are rising so much faster than our ability to generate revenue to offset those.

But I feel like that's true across the board.

I feel groceries used to be three hundred dollars, and now I've spent six hundred dollars, and Jason's like, what the hell?

Why is there no food in the pantry?

Like, and that and so that that's a budgeting challenge that we're we're facing is how to how to provide the services that this the residents want without taxing them to death.

I mean, it's a it's a challenge.

I mean, our fire service is so good that they they get the best insurance rate you can possibly get.

Like you not every city has that.

I mean, not every city has the best insurance rates you can get from fire to service in however many minutes five minutes claim four minutes, whatever what is that rating again that um it's the ISO ISO one is the m is the highest you can get and we're and we're we're a three, yeah.

But there are a lot of these are fives, um, and their residents pay it one way or the other.

Probably get it better than that because of our hillside and rush.

I fully I fully believe at our next rating will actually go to it too.

Really?

I do.

We've increased we've increased our mediation if we meet well one what they look like at in the ISO rating, really, is four categories, and it's it's water, it's it's response force, so our people um it's our dispatch and it's our training, and we have made improvements in all of those areas.

Now, a couple of them we don't have direct control over uh the water in the dispatch, but we've made significant improvements there um in across all those boards.

I believe we were not too far off on the two last time.

I totally believe we'll go to a two on our next review, which quite honestly could be this year.

We're ready for one.

Great.

But anyway, my point is the public safety is valuable.

It's it's saving you money, you know, having good public safety is a is is what makes the community a nice place to live.

So yeah, I don't think any of us disagree.

So I think we just maybe stay with the model how we're doing it, just we're gonna have to do some.

I do see how like I how you can't brag to the Riverton people.

Yeah, yeah, I can't.

But I do see how if it is separated like that, like it does make it easier to explain to your um constituents, right?

Because uh lots of people I knocked a lot of doors and lots of people told me about how the city how Troy Walker's getting rich out of this, or whatever.

Do you know what I mean?

And and I'm like, wait, I've lived here a lot of time and we haven't raised taxes, or whatever, like there are not people in understanding the bill in general, they don't understand that it's library fees.

This is a school district has gone up like this, and Draper City has gone up like this, and so they think it's all us.

They don't see all the yeah, and so if it is separate, I think you can be like, no, actually, our city budget hasn't changed.

We have had to so I can see how explaining that sometimes could be easier if it was separated.

I I just guess I didn't understand it does seem like it's a city cities have been drawn into the wake of the school districts.

Right.

And and that's been the discussion on all these property tax bills, is really the genesis is the legislature is tired of the school district increases being so high, and we're getting pulled along for the ride as the cruise ship leaves the port.

We're on our little jet ski, yet the school sectors aren't really fighting that they're really participating.

They're letting other entities, i.e.

leave leave the charge on this, which is not it's irritating to me because we're we're behind the boat getting drunk.

Senator Bill 97 actually excludes the school districts from the 5% cap.

That they can wait a second.

They're the problem.

Yeah.

Well, but they're also stripping funding from the school districts, too.

Well, I mean, I think they're having a fruit.

That was a huge issue in every school circuit.

We have these field houses that are just ridiculous, and we're buying the eBay property that nothing's happening with.

Like we see a lot of spending going on, frankly.

So do you always want to stay with the that our typical taxation model where we're all in the big pool, or do you want to move towards the separation?

I would really be interested in moving the Western Capital.

At least looking at it.

Yes.

Yeah, I think it could be a lot of the same thing.

An annual cost of living adjustment.

But would you like John to come back to you with a proposal how it might look?

What was Salt Lake Cities?

We talked about Salt Lake City last year.

Salt Lake Center City does something similar.

Um they take advantage of the state allows the way the state does tax property taxes, they you get what you got last year, what you budgeted last year, not what you got last year.

So Salt Lake City has always incrementally said we want what we got, not what we were budgeted at.

And so they will look for that additional piece.

And for them, it's a million, two million dollars that they're getting above what was actually budgeted.

So they come in and say, right.

They just say, let's just adjust the rate so that we get exactly what we got last year.

And then why we're falling off is because we're not getting that.

I mean, if you look at Salt Lake here, Salt Lake's rate still goes down.

They're the brown line that was clear at the top, and notice they're not even the leading the charge anymore.

Thank you, Riverton.

Yeah, they did they held held the truth in taxation hearing almost every year.

I was there.

I think that is really probably the most transparent and upfront way to do it.

And there's there's bills, there's bills going through right now that are going to address portions of the truth in taxation hearing, how it's in the process, the process.

Um are some are challenging, some will be challenging, but let's but some address the the the pitfalls that we fell into last year too.

And so um but the but these are policy decisions in whatever direction council gives us obviously what we'll do, but yeah, I I'm certainly happy to have employee proposals what it would look like to separate out public safety to some degree, maybe not completely, but I know what you're saying, Catherine.

Maybe it's worth looking at because it's easier to be then even go to the Riverton luncheons and say we don't have as much property tax as you don't have any.

As you're zero, yeah.

Ours is somehow messaging is more difficult for sure.

Because it's a complete redo of it.

But if we said people hey, we are cutting your property tax to create this.

I mean, that's a good message.

That's the only way you would message them.

I just don't know where to do it.

But it really is a slide of payments.

I just don't know where you're gonna cut it because so much of our budget is dependent on sales tax.

And that's something that we can't adjust.

You have a chart that shows that and we can't be like, this is the slide that shows how you craft sources revenue.

So this is all ready.

We're not gonna be able to play pay police find us why it gets real right.

That's why you wonder do you go to at least uh 50% model or 70% model of how about if you brought back a proposal some percentage would be earmarked specifically in a little bucket?

I don't know.

Or we just problem with it is what you're saying in the impairment.

We have to pay from the general fund anyway.

And if you're gonna be doing that five years down the road, we might as well have gone the other route and be doing these small annual increase that's okay.

What's the consensus on just keeping it?

I do like what Salt Lake City does.

Okay, all right, do so no wasting more time.

Trying to bucket it.

Yeah.

Don't try to bucket it then.

They don't want they just want to figure out how we're gonna close the gap.

Let's get to the gap now.

All right.

And could you preface the gap with the distinction between the budget and the actuals?

Yep.

And then how how it is that you John and Jared put together a budget?

Because I think that's important to understand.

What slide do I want?

All right.

So this is um uh an explanation of what we do.

So this is a five-year history starting on the left, 21 uh 26 with a projected over here on the far right.

Um the each three each of the three columns are different budgets or actuals within each of the fiscal years.

So when we adopt a budget, that's the far left column.

We adopt a conservative budget.

We know we don't want to project the world and you know, say we're gonna make a million dollars in sales tax, but later in the year when sales tax comes in, we'll come back to the council and say we want to do an amendment and add these services based on certain things that came into the budget.

So you can see each year we budget fairly low, we come back based on projected revenues that we're seeing, and we increase the amended budget, and then the revenues don't come in quite as high.

This is just the revenues, but you can see property property taxes, the blue, it's pretty consistent.

We're able to budget fairly well.

We know exactly what we're gonna get.

There's not a whole lot of volatility there, but sales tax, you can see the orange, it's we don't it's it's a guess.

It's based on the economy, and so we try to budget, but we also try to budget fairly conservatively.

Um in the current fiscal year we have a total budget for sales tax of 22 million.

We're projecting now that we'll be slightly higher, 225.

Um we had a really good month last month, and hopefully we continue that trend.

Um, but I mean if you I'm gonna flip back a couple of slides, don't get C sick on me.

Um you can see that it it's up and down every single month, right?

This is year over year histories, um, with this being this current fiscal year.

Um so Jul July was our lowest month.

Last month was two point one million in sales tax, which was the second highest of any of the months we've ever seen in Draper 2.2 um in July of in May of uh 24 was the ultimate high.

So what causes that?

Uh some of it's reporting, so entities get to choose when they report, how they report, uh when they pay, some are quarterly, some are monthly.

So it really does does depend on who's reporting and paying during a any given month.

But I mean, January and February are typically a little bit lower, so we got a couple of lower months coming, but um but hopefully you know December is also usually a really good month.

So we we're hoping we have another really good month in December and some higher months in the later in the year as well.

So back to the revenues.

Um so you can see that we always try to budget conservatively.

We come back to you.

Um our budgets are balanced.

What that means is that we have to have as much revenue coming in as we have expense going out, and so we always maintain a a balanced budget, um, whether that's in an adopted budget or in an amended budget.

We we'll always have an amendment uh have a balanced budget.

How are we off so much though from our amended budget to to the actual when do you usually amend it?

So we'll I mean we're we're gonna be coming to you with an amendment uh in fair in March or one February.

So next our next uh council meeting, there will be an amendment on there.

Um those amendments really vary for what they are, right?

We have some CIP projects that we need to take care of.

Um we got a fire grant that we're gonna uh bring to you to give us permission to spend the grant.

Um we can ex we can apply for a grant, for example, but we can't actually spend the money or receive the money until you as the governing body accept the revenue and the expense side of that.

So that's what an amended budget really does is it takes those into account.

Um sometimes we'll amend a budget.

Typically, we do one at the end of the year trying to make sure that we don't go over budget because that's a statutory um requirement.

So those are some of the things that we typically look at, and we're just making our best guesses and trying to.

Yeah, so it looks like for right now, even with the amended budget, our projected actual is going to be lower, right?

Because of the other sources of no other the balance budget, so as we're looking at the current fiscal year, those first two columns also include a draw from fund balance.

So in the adopted budget, we had that four and a half million dollars that we pulled from fund balance.

My projected revenue figures on this chart do not include any poll from fund balance, so that's the difference because as I go to this next chart, um, I wanted to be able to show you what the deficit was, right?

So we had a budgeted revenue of 482.

That's taking out the draw from fund balance, and a budgeted expense of 52 million, which meant that we needed to pull 4.5 million from fund balance.

Now, as I've looked at projections, where it's like I said, slightly higher as far as projected revenue, almost the half a million significantly lower on expenses, which is not abnormal.

I mean, here's the year over year comparison for same thing, right?

This is the adopted budget, amended budget, and then the actuals, but you can see that from the amended budget, we are typically significantly lower than our amended budget.

That's because we try to budget so that we don't have to come to you every single month with a budget amendment.

Now we could budget a whole lot tighter and we would be in your chambers every single month with a budget amendment to you know adjust the fire department budget so that they could go by this widget or that widget.

Um we try to come in with a good solid budget, not asking for too much, but then we ask and have controls in place so that the department directors do control their budgets, and they do come in typically significantly lower than budget.

So bottom line is if we had if we were able to keep that property tax, we would have only been off about 400,000 in deficit.

Because you're showing projected balance about 1.4.

Yeah, but that's from pulling four million out of our.

I understand your question, correct?

So we really need we're only have to pull 1.4 million out of our general fund, then probably instead of 4.5 million.

Right.

That's what I'm telling you is that we're we budgeted 4.5 at the end of the year.

We're probably only gonna need to pull 1.4.

If we had had the property tax go through, that number would be lower.

Right, 400 or 500.

But if we know we and if we had that 900,000, um, then when you add on some some of the new retail that we're talking about coming, you almost can you know fill it in.

Almost balance it.

Well, you certainly can on big grocery stores and electric car dealerships that might want to locate here.

Um but I just wanted you to see even this year, even if we'd have that 900,000, we would still be pulling 400,000 out.

Now there is some discussion on the hill right now about that's better than 4.5 million, yes.

Yes, yes.

There is some discussion on the hill right now about the reserves.

Right.

And there was a Slido question today or uh on LPC yesterday about where everybody's reserves are at, and I can put us with 30% at the 31 to 35 is right.

So I mean the question about that was where is the money being held that's in reserve?

Most of it's in PTIF, is ours in PTIF?

Um about 40% is in uh PTF with 60% sitting in other long-term investments.

So then the legislature's saying, well, the cities have all this money sitting there earning interest.

We they may want to hack down our reserve limit to be able to, you know, but but don't forget that storm that happened two years ago.

The Blue Remanhole cover on uh Bangar extension in Suncrest Drive, and I think maybe I'm wrong, Scott, but that was like 24 minutes of rain.

Did five million dollars in damage to our city?

Was it how much was it?

I thought it was around three and a half.

Okay, I've been inflating it.

But then you've got to look at the row of improvements we had to make on 138.

But I mean, still one store, one 24-minute storm could do three million dollars in damage.

You can burn a reserve up in a real big hurry.

You know, if you have a big fire.

That would be so irresponsible for the state to make us reduce our reserves.

That's that is the bill is not the case bill.

It is to go from 35 to 30%.

25.

25.

Okay, that is they want you to spend your money and not hold it as a that is so irresponsible.

Well, that's I think we don't have enough time to debate.

He's on the short term.

We'll see if he's there next year.

Anyway, um, I just was gonna ask because um basic question, but so when you say the general fund or whatever, the fund money, so it's like the city's savings account, right?

Where we're our back up.

Okay.

And okay, it's the big fund.

And we're limited, we can't only keep up to what how much what is 35%.

We're in 31%.

And we keep close to that.

We keep about 30 or 31% of the ground.

I mean, there's a chart of fund balance.

Um, so in at the end of fiscal year 25, we were at 34.62 uh percent fund balance.

So state maximum that we're allowed, uh even though we were up 40 percent in 23, we got a writing right up because we had too much money in savings, um but last year we were at 34.62 percent.

It's very good.

I I think we're pretty responsible city.

Uh I was small.

Okay, that is something the legislature should be applauding.

Well, they're not that kind of range.

Uh, sure.

The uh point comes on board.

Are you anticipating to see us getting some substantial funds through that sales tax?

Yeah, so so that's a good question.

Excellent question.

As the point comes on, the there was a point bill that just dropped today, and it ties into property tax, so it's it's apropos.

So the point in phase one, so in the phase one development, 67 acres.

Once they build a building and have a lease tenant, that's valuable and can be property taxed.

The state is keeping the property tax at 98% for the first 10 years.

Then it I can't manage goes down to 96% at year 15.

Suffice it to say that for the all of our natural lives, the state is going to get the property tax.

Which they pledged to TPP, which they pledged to TPP, the developer, which the developers then pledged to all kinds of things, you know, everything in it.

So they just drop that bill, which codifies those percentages, which are in the agreement.

So it's not something that's not a surprise to us.

Right.

We've never but when a dollar of sales tax is generated at the point, we get our full share of it.

We don't get any more, but whatever we would get anywhere else, we get that dollar, the RPR piece of it.

Um I think is the retail comes on, and the good news about the point, phase one has about 50,000 square feet of retail in the phase one plan.

This is where the heart of it is.

Right.

It's the it's going in first, and it's where we're gonna get the most money.

Now, in this bill, this is some completely like talk about throwing a freaking curveball at a batter.

Um the the net we never contemplated ever selling land in the point.

When I say we, I mean the point land authority, the the board before that board and the board before that board.

Well, if you go back to Gary Herbert, he wants to sell the whole damn thing, but after him, um the the point boards and every board that came up to the creation of Ponsla never contemplated selling one acre, not one cylinder.

But the way that the point infrastructure has been funded, not by the points desire, but by the legislature, all the money that we're putting in, the roads you see going in out there, pipes, everything, that's all being paid for by a loan from the great state of Utah to the great state of Utah's land authority called POMSLA at I think it's four percent, if I remember.

Scott, what is it?

Do you remember?

I think it's like four percent.

It's 168 million.

Unfortunately, it's not enough to finish the job.

So our good representative Calvin Roberts has got another 18 million coming in alone, again a loan to cap off and finish the infrastructure, but that's still not enough, and the legislature won't give us the point any money, like get you know, appropriate it to us.

They have appropriated 150 million for a state building that's inside the point, which is fully appropriated.

Just notice that the difference between the whole infrastructure package and that building is only about 40 million.

It's a different discussion.

But and the billions in downtown that is no interest.

My favorite property owners get 300 million.

Not even a loan.

But but so now, because the there's still a gap for us, and we sold this loan, we're selling 55 acres for residential fee simple ownership.

So then you think to yourself, well, what then we would get all the property tax on the fee simple, not so fast yet, because the the bill originally wanted to take 75% of the property.

But the state will still get 25% of the property tax generated on someone's house that might they might own in the point.

Which is a problem, in that then it's not coughing up that same amount of money for police supply.

Here's the good news about the point money.

And I was I had your same thought.

That that property tax revenue that they collect that the POMSLA collects, that money is not going into POMSLA's general fund.

It's not a cash fund to do whatever the POMSAL wants.

It has to go back into maintenance of the river to range trail, landscape maintenance, because we're not doing basically we're not doing landscape maintenance on the roads.

All the stuff that we could barely do, even if they told us we had to, we it would look like Detroit if we had to, you know, do all the main.

I mean, we still have the people, so that money is not going to go into the project like in a general taking a bunch of cash, it's going to go back to help maintain stuff that we would otherwise have to maintain.

Now, the police and fire park, there's going to be some revenue coming back as we ramp up.

It's not perfect, but it is it is what it is.

But so that property tax question is I think we'll when the sales tax starts coming online, we're gonna benefit from that.

Um we'll benefit from 75% of the property tax on the sold product.

That's just a slippery slope.

I hate seeing them go down because there's 55 acres, and then what's the next?

Well, uh my was in a meeting the other day, and and some of the leadership they were it was the appropriations group, and they were you told me this today.

Everybody says, Why are we in this?

Why are why do we do it?

Why don't we just sell the whole thing?

The problem we have there, and why is we're already pregnant, like the triplets, and it's like month nine.

Um, we're having triplets there because TPP is got a contract.

We we've committed tax dollars that you know all along the way because the model is a sound model.

If it gets built up and there's a good productive leases, the state makes a lot of money over time.

So there was a reason why we got pregnant, it wasn't accidental.

So that's what we had to explain to them.

I just want to make sure there's enough property tax revenue coming in funding fire.

There won't be.

So how are we doing that?

We're robbing beer and PayPal.

We are sales tax funds on so the the just like we are now, we have enough property taxes.

Now before most of the people live there, like the commercial is first, and so hopefully we're starting to get some sales tax revenues before we have a significant number of people living there.

We're in the same boat we're in now.

Whether there's people living there or not, we're still gonna have to police it.

If there's a fire, we still have to respond.

So there has to be some funds.

And that part's getting worked on still as well.

Well, I we we've talked about I I had a text exchange with Cal over the weekend, and he mentioned you mentioned some of these Palms and bills, and I said, But the real challenge that we've got as a city is Ponza gave TPP all of our property tax.

I said, we have to provide services out there immediately.

I said it's probably late this session to have this discussion, but we really need the legislature to appropriate some money to us to pay for services and he was and he was amenable for that.

So I think that that's something we could probably want.

That's what I told them.

That's exactly what I told them.

Yeah, and we can't also be floated at a 4% loan on it, either.

Right.

But that's just ridiculous.

Like at that point, like we just need to get out of the point.

Like, I don't want to help them with anything.

If we are making increasing taxes on regular draper to pay for services at the point, and we're not getting anything back, that's ridiculous.

We're gonna get our sales tax portion of it.

100%.

At some point, hopefully, I mean, a minute commercial goes in the state.

They've got high-end stores.

I was out there today.

They invited the new city council people, and they wouldn't tell us anything, but they're like, there's names that are not in the state yet.

They say that stuff which is which is a good thing.

We don't want them to transfer the right, just shift shift banana republic from city grade to the point.

You know, I mean, but that's not a bad example, but that a little full percent increase for us because we already get a portion of the sales from anywhere within the state.

The alternative is you would get zero property tax at all, zero sales tax.

If the state developed you're not looking at it the right way.

If the state said, okay, we don't need Draper, we're gonna develop it ourselves.

Guess what?

When they have a fire call, who goes?

We freaking go.

Guess what happens when we have there's a police emergency?

We still go.

There's no getting out of providing service to some place that's in your city, even if it was even if they moved it to Bluffdale, Clint would still go if he's the first dispatched unit.

So you can't really say it's floating because it's not, it is what it is.

We are gonna ultimately generate revenue more than we would have gotten otherwise.

I mean, it what it's it's not a zero sum.

It's it was a prison site, which we got zero from for 70 years, zero dollars for 70 years.

Right, but I just get nervous because there's a lot of hopes and dreams and things crossing.

That's the current state of it though.

And we still responded there over that.

So responded with a snap, right?

When are they breaking ground?

Late this quarter.

They took yeah, they told us today that they that they will it late this spring, and then but we'll see buildings starting to go up this summer, like they said in June.

The first thing that's gonna go up is the 5,000 seat.

Well, first thing is gonna go up is a 300 unit apartment complex.

Um, and then the next thing is the which has um commercial commercial underneath the base.

The next thing goes up is the 5,000 seat amphitheater or an amphitheater concert hall, again attached to the downtown, then the convergence hall, which is a hundred and fifty million dollar state building that'll have retail on the bottom of it too.

Those are all three are gonna come out of the ground this year.

And the promenade opens when that's too, which is that nice street little uh it's just a little odd because Riverson has created this high-end mall like five miles down the road open mountain view.

Yeah, I like competition.

I like it too.

But those are the high-end store.

Yes.

So it'll be called gateway.

Yeah, after our gateway though.

You guys you so we move on to the next.

So you guys now understand we have a 1.4 million dollar deficit this year.

We're gonna be yanking out of our reserve to balance our budget at current state.

Current if everything comes in the way we've got it planned, you don't think it's gonna go up, do you?

Sales tax.

I mean you don't know.

I I don't know positive.

My optimistic view is that's uh conservative no it won't be worse to them, so it could be better.

Okay, can we send a bill to the state for 900 something thousand for the trigger taxation crap?

Yeah, mess up on that.

Well, there's been much discussion about that, but it no pulling that amount out of fund balance will drop us to 32.8, which is still above the threshold that the state is saying that they're going to set now, which means that we then begin the process of spending how do we spend that money or we're gonna get to that move coming up next how to spend it.

But everybody's good on the gap.

You don't have a lot of money that you don't have.

I do have one other question.

So there is a bill that was passed, it's being modified a little bit, but transportation utility fee.

Yes.

Are we interested in that?

It it's gonna take a study to be able to figure out what we can charge.

Um, but if if we're if we're interested in it, there is revenue that can be had.

What is what a transportation utility fee is is basically a fund to um fund road maintenance and construction, and it's based on the number of trips.

So you look at the trips that um any given place, the temple or um Draper Peaks.

Draper peaks or whatever.

I was in this battle last year, the whole battle.

And what you're so the main eight hundred pound gorilla that was against it was the church.

And I mean the Catholic church or the Methodist Church, I mean the church, the Mormon church, right?

They did not like it because they did not they saw any any tax against their property as a property tax.

They saw a fee is a tax and and they're exempt from property tax under the First Amendment, and they were very, very much interested in preserving that concept more than anything in the world.

That's the most important concept to them, at least in the meetings I was in with them.

I'm sure they have other priorities too.

But on the tax side, that was priority one.

So we went into a bunch of negotiations, and so what we came down to, there was a study, a city did that was poorly done, and they just took the size of your property and then they assessed the value of it, basically.

And so it really was a property tax.

I mean, it was pretty damn hard to argue it wasn't.

Well, that got the church riled up.

That was not what we were trying to do.

But like what Spanish Fork has done, um provocate.

So they were in the midst of doing one right now.

They've done they've hired a consultant to come in and do a um study, and so they're uh they're going to propose in their budget this year um implementing a transportation utility.

I think we should look do the study because any money you can get to fix the roads, it goes just to roads, it can't go to anything else.

And it's not a lot.

I mean, like you're talking it's not a lot of money.

And churches have a Sunday exemption and some of that, but it was a hard-fought battle to get where we are.

So it's it's pretty uh representative Kerr Peterson really taught the battle for us to get it.

So it it works.

But who's taxed on this?

Yes, who's taxed?

Every business who pays the fee.

Yeah, basically not a tax.

So who pays the fee?

All of us pay.

Yeah, is it put on our property tax or how are we how is it collected?

Yeah, well, so it would be put on a utility bill.

So that's how it would be collected and billed, and it would be based on whatever our analysis says that the fee should be based on number of trips to your home or to the you know Chick-fil-A on 123rd.

So does it um require a truth in taxation thing, or would you just have public carrying on it?

Yeah, implement the fee.

But like the argument about the Chick-fil-A, like right how how dare we put a Chick-fil-A over there behind Harman's because it's gonna wear the roads all out.

This goes right to that very premise.

How many trips is going to that Chick-fil-A that's gonna get a higher fee than but it's not necessarily the people going to the Chick-fil-A that are paying for it?

Oh, it will be who lives in Draper.

Yeah, because Chick-fil-A's gonna raise the rate.

Oh, but Chick-fil-A is then having the ones.

That's the utility, they'll get it.

It's not on my bill, they'll get the utility bill.

Chick fil A will get the billhouse.

I think it's brilliant.

But it can only train out the colour.

Yeah, I don't know how many.

I'm not sure I'm going to road residential.

Typically it's it's just commercial.

Typically it's just commercial.

Okay.

Okay.

But then it put it.

But it's also paying for it with a entity that aren't currently paying taxes.

That a fee ought to apply appeal to people because you pay for what you're using.

Right.

It was a hard cloud battle, but it's coming around.

I think we should do it.

So this is something that was just past the legislature that we are allowed to do this, or why is it?

It's in process.

No, it's it's in process right now.

It has not been passed.

Stores, stores, churches, um anybody that draws you know, traffic to that through their site.

And how do we figure that out?

So you can build the algorithm somewhere out there.

No, no, there's some analysis that there is the Spanish port provo, they've all done it, and it's sound and it passes the muster, it keeps it from becoming the tax.

You just got to do it.

The bill outlines exactly what it's all stalled in the cell phone tracking, like the parking lot.

So it would be bigger because so many people have it like that.

But you know, but you that I've got to do that.

You don't look at individual, you don't look at individual, you look at categories.

So you may look at fast food restaurants as a whole, you may look at grocery stores as a whole, you may look at houses of worship as a whole, you may look at institutional uses as a whole.

Not necessarily divided between all of them.

Correct.

And so if if if your business is in that category, there's a rate, there's the rate that you pay.

And it's city-based, so cities are is the county gonna do it too, or is it just cities?

I think it's only cities that can implement it.

Yeah, I think we should do it.

I think we should look into it.

I'll put the bill on the lot of time on it last year, and like a lot of company.

How much do you think that could potentially bring in?

I mean, tens of dollars.

No, I think they could bring in half a million dollars.

Well, here's more.

Plus I mean that's worth doing.

Right.

Pleasant Grove fought the fought at the Supreme State Supreme Court because Pleasant Grove did not fund maintenance of their roads very well.

I shouldn't say they didn't, but Pleasant Grove's roads were a disaster for years.

You can testify to this.

So they implemented the fee, got sued by uh it was an auto body or somebody who was like a property, a commercial property owner.

It went all the way up to our state supreme court who said this if you do it right, this is a fee.

That and so that's that's what Pleasant Grove and other cities are are gonna use the funds for is to maintain their roads to you know the higher standard.

I would love you to at least study it and see if we can do that.

I'll bring the bill back.

I think it's a brilliant idea personally.

Well, it's very similar to the tax on Geneva Rock, right?

That they're doing this wear and tear on their roads, and so you need to pay more than but over the period of negotiations, we got the church around to agree into they suddenly realize well, this isn't a property.

Yeah, it makes sense.

It's yeah.

I think it's a fair map.

I think it's a good idea.

Yeah, yeah, they have a fee.

Yeah, yeah, they have speech.

But we would have the temple map a lot of people.

No, it does.

No, and that was one of the one of the things was was temples generate.

A church, a worship house on Sunday generates, you know, the Sunday traffic, not much during the week.

But the temples are like commercial buildings.

They generate from zero six hundred topics.

And that's one of the first areas that we have to snowplow.

Yep.

And everything.

I mean, it's and they they use the boundaries temple when it went on when it went offline to get renovated, they track the trips.

And then when it came back online, you're able to just go, Well, here's how many cars are going up there every single day.

Yeah.

It's like it was like a it was as much as a big commercial business.

I mean, truly.

Well, we know the aquarium is like the second most visited place in the entire thing.

That's what this came to mind.

That they'll get taxed, won't they?

Put that out of your head.

All right.

Next item then.

So you know what the you know how much money you don't have.

Um now let's go to uh public works building.

Do it.

Do you want to there's dinner here if you want to break it?

Yeah, do you want to break his okay?

What was that stat with the aquarium?

It's the second most visited attraction.

Yeah, and this is like more than Zion.

Well, is it that's gonna be like national parks?

Okay, so maybe they can be the zoo is number one and the other.

I definitely said that Temple Square was in the parks and the rest of Chacooley.

Were you gonna talk about that?

Or how what are we doing on how we're doing it?

I would have not prepared to talk about the average.

I can get you up to date.

We have issued the RFP for the needs assessment, correct?

We've and we're slightly kind of slightly that what the what the needs assessment will determine is what what functions the building ought to meet.

Um I think one question that your department had, Scott, was how the council feels about the potential splitting of services into two different buildings.

Is that accurate?

I think so.

We're thinking of uh one of those strong buildings out of by Glena Park.

Um not sure exactly where out there, but in that vicinity, and then keeping the public forward facility that we have now modifying it, but that would break it up because otherwise, if we don't, then that's a whole new facility somewhere else.

We just that would be more ideal, but we're just trying to live with whatever we can do.

I think that's the cheapest way that we can go is to get a strong building out there that we can run some of our operations for to get some of the space that we need to operate.

Could you still run like snow plows out of both places and stuff so that limit the trips?

Yeah.

Um well, snow plows would just still run out of our air stage because it's more central.

Uh but some of our other operations would be calculated.

So we would try not to split up operations, like our water would be in one place, long grain one place.

We you know, we try to try to keep our mechanics in one place.

Uh we're not sure what that looks like yet because we haven't done the uh but hopefully those questions will be answered.

The strong structures are cheaper.

Um they're quicker to build, and they they're very functional.

They're portable, yeah.

And there's an aftermarket should you decide to sell it.

You'll remember that we were thinking of not selling off our property to the RV place, keeping our portion, right?

And then that's the reason for the split because we'd need more property up there to do more, but keep what we have get off the part we're using that's not our that's not ours, but keep snowflow operating.

Seven staker property, or doesn't work.

That's the eastern part of the yard.

But since we own Galena, we got a lot of room over there.

We could you know connect up near where parks and parks are.

There's a whole lot of space.

We can still have the fields, and there's still a way to we ought to look at a way to do it.

But if you haven't been out for the tour of the sprung building, we ought to go do it.

A couple of us went, they're phenomenal structures.

I mean, it's hurricane proof.

Um, you know, it's you they're free span, you can do you can park trucks, and it's amazing.

And you can build the interior to look like a regular office building very easily.

It doesn't, you don't feel like you're in some weird building at all.

Okay, you put the logo on it on the outside of it, whatever you want to do.

They're headquarters in West Jordan, they have their administrative offices in the front of the building.

In the back of the building, they're literally building banging on steel, and you can't hear a thing.

So, I mean they're very adaptable and functional.

But I yeah, we we they would love to host another tour.

They have set it up anytime.

Yeah, Tesla recruited Sprung structures, we're getting its company to market.

They literally did not have a way to construct the Tesla automobile in a building that they could have got their vehicles going.

Elon Musk himself, there's a video of him saying they came in and built this, they built an auto factory with one of these sprung buildings.

As they went along too.

Yeah, so they were building the building, they were doing the cars.

Unbelievable.

Still uses it today.

Most of the SpaceX buildings that are on there at SpaceX are all sprung, and they're huge.

I mean, they're huge buildings.

Are you guys are still good with the Galena idea and that concept?

I'd like to use as little of those fields as possible.

Right.

Yeah, I was just asking where in Galena is kind of on the north end toward where public works is.

But we would have to look at that.

It just depends on the needs.

So isn't that where we're thinking of the fire department though?

Yeah, but there's room.

There's three or four lots, yeah.

Quite frankly, we lease a building right now for the fire logistics.

14,000 a month, 1450.

If we found a place for that with a sprung building, we could save 14,000 a month.

And have you talked about the one right down here on the DLC building?

And have a bigger, more functional building.

So I think there's a lot of opportunity for that.

Okay, this sounds really can a sprung building house a fire station?

Absolutely.

Salt Lake City does it.

They the Salt Lake City uses one for their logistics out of their tower.

Um, it's it's beautiful on the inside, but they have all where all of their uh logistics, their mechanics work, and they have offices built inside of it.

But you you can build whatever accommodation you need on the inside of those to make it functional.

My kids play basketball at one out in West Jordan, it's just a massive basketball facility.

South Jordan had one they used for 20 years, then they they got another one, they sold the old one to another person.

No, they took it down and sold it, and then that person that that city used it for like 10 years and sold it to the next person.

Like they there was some actual value in it.

And that building actually originated up in Park City.

Yeah, went down to the school district, yep, and then went to fielders.

So I think it's on its fourth owner right now.

So to be clear priority wise, getting this public works building is uh a top priority for us.

Right?

Are you all there with that being a top priority?

Brand.

I mean, like getting down to the next item on the building after fire, town center community buildings.

If you're gonna prioritize your money and your time right now, the public works building's got to be next up on the line because we got to get off the property that we don't own up there at some point soon, and we have we really got to move on.

I think it's priority one for buildings.

Anybody have any questions or comments about that concept?

Tasha noted that we want to use least amount of field spaces we can, or maybe not, maybe we figure out a way to do it about any.

I think it's smart.

Make a town center building with one of them.

And if we could incorporate the fire logistics into it, it might save us a whole lot of money that could go into operations as opposed to paying it to a landlord.

Then we're Clint, were you gonna talk about fire department needs or who's gonna talk about that?

Clinton, I couldn't I've met several times.

Okay, go ahead.

And if I missed something, but basically the fire department is has a need for uh training facilities in terms of meeting rooms, uh administrative staff, storage of equipment.

I think those were the three main ones, roughly.

One one is to add on to Ryan Button's building, which he's willing to do is to create offices.

I know it is.

How much is he charging us for that?

Well, I don't know yet.

The other is, and this was kind of a unique unique solution.

Was it vineyard that that did this?

It's it's a forum fire department in Vincent.

Yeah, in Vineyard.

So bought a home and retrofitted it as a buyer station.

Um just kind of a unique unique way of looking at it.

Um the sprung structure could be of a way to store equipment.

Um go ahead and and I'm probably not doing justice to the depth of the discussions we've had.

You you've hit um on the challenges we have.

Our challenges for the fire department in terms of facilities, are we have no we have no extra bedroom space in any of our stations, which means if we would have a student that's going to paramedic school and needs to be an additional person to do their rides, or if we're actually hosting, because we we partner with a lot of other agencies and have students coming to do our rides, we actually don't have an available extra bed in our two primary stations, which is the one on the 123rd and 100 or excuse me, up on South Mountain, uh, which are obviously our busier ones.

On top of that, they so we have no additional capacity within either of those stations.

On top of that, where our administration is located over here at this station, we are already doubled up on office space within our existing.

We have we have a need to plan for and grow our administration, but we have no space to do that.

Um, and so looking at uh uh you know long-term needs and how we we facilitate that.

If we if we can find a place, obviously, to relocate our administration out of there to a place that's uh you know has more capacity, uh, additional office space and a training room, then we free up all that space over there at station 21 that I believe buys us probably 10 to 15 years of time of use for the station over there because it gives us additional uh office space and bedroom space over there that allows us to do some of these other things that we're we're you know would like to do in terms of students or training and those types of things.

Um so that's and then outside of that is just the the service delivery and the challenge that we have with the west side of the city and all the growth that's happened over there and the need for some type of a facility on the west side to be able to actually respond to um and meet those NFTA standards in terms of time over there.

So facility-wise, that's why we've looked at again um what are our options, and that's you know, we have the current logistics building or the right button building, you know, and those options.

There's just no place, obviously, in City Hall.

We have three people now, two people housed in City Hall with our fire marshal and fire inspector.

Um we would love to have all of our administrative strata teams centralized into one place where we're together, and uh and that builds capacity by pulling those people out of the other buildings, especially City Hall for additional capacity that they need here.

So training space, we have the small training room that's up at station 22.

Um we can we can bring a couple of crews together at one time, but we can't do anything beyond that just because we don't have a large larger training space that can facilitate what our what are so what's your suggestion?

Well, uh again, not knowing when we talk about the station on the west side.

I mean, you could meet some of those needs, but I don't believe that that's the right place to put our administration is to build a station with those capacities over there because it removes us too much from City Hall here.

Ideally uh I believe that our logistics building that we're currently renting, I believe we if there was a way for us to purchase that building, um, so we're again we're not paying the monthly rent, but it's a great facility, it's still centrally located, and then to add on to that facility and move our administrative offices there.

Um it's still very centrally located, it's in close proximity to City Hall and the other the other things that we have going in that building long term.

Otherwise, we're starting from scratch someplace.

Is that any function to buy that building?

It has been, I think.

Isn't that the Ryan Button building?

Yes, it is.

Is it for sale?

It's not for sale, but I've had the discussion with Ryan several times.

Um, because of where it's located in the zone in the historic, they're limited on what they can do with the building.

Obviously, from a business perspective, they would love for us to just be their long-term rent.

We wouldn't.

But um, but uh I know he also realizes that that's not feasible for the city to do, and I think that he definitely is open to some sort of type of of a uh you know, uh a lease to own option on that building.

The challenge or I guess the next challenge would be is if we were to pursue that earlier, um then how do we again as I said to come up with the funds to to build what we need there to relocate our administrative offices and give us the space that we need there or another option again, take it for what it's worth is uh to he's willing to build those on and then have us do uh again that lease to to purchase or at least to own option um after he's built those those things on for us uh moving forward, which pros and cons to everything for sure.

Well, in the long run, even if the lease was higher than what it is now, if it's taking us towards a purchase.

We are not you're not flushing your monthly police payment down the toilet.

Right now because you are doing right now, yeah.

Right now, because we have a couple of people on light duty, um, and we're trying to keep them busy um why they can't be out running calls.

Right now I have I have two people each in two of the four offices that we have over there because we don't have any place else um to do that, and again, we have probably one of the smallest administrative teams um for comparable sized departments out there, and that's simply just because we don't even if we have the capacity to to add the FTEs for administrative, we don't have any place to put them, and we need to be able to plan ahead to to continue to meet the needs uh of our department moving forward, especially on the administrative side.

Um, we need to with the point coming on, we probably are gonna need to hire another person on the fire prevention inspection side of things just to handle that workload.

I mean, Don's got those first four buildings that he's reviewing now, and once we get into the actual construction and inspection of those, that will really be a full-time FTE down there.

We have no place to put that person here at City Hall where they're housed.

Okay, all right.

Thank you.

Yeah, we need to start considering that going.

What about putting a sprung building for fire here next to City Hall on the land that we own?

Just where the like at the end of the project dumpsters are and vacate that building down here.

And that money you'd be that we're putting towards rent could go towards that.

That's a good idea.

Yeah, but why not look at it?

I guess depending on what the di the difference is in leasing it versus what it was for monthly payment would be better off building some are are you okay with that if we schedule another a field trip out this drive and explore some of these options?

It's an option.

It's an option we can take everything.

You can see with existing land.

You can see how much how many using it for anything.

Okay, I like the idea of us using our own property.

I do too.

And I kind of don't want to get into bed with Ryan button any more than the RBR.

He's a very guy where is it uh you are right now?

Street user, excuse me.

It's um sixth three.

Eight feet thirty east.

You know where the uh where water pro building is?

Yes, we are the next building each of water pro.

So it's the old sewer district building, it's where our logistics is, but we also have sanitation that's working out of there.

So you'll see the garbage truck scarf there.

Okay.

Um, and which speaks to the fact that we're doubled up all over the place and sharing space down there, which is not ideal for either of us.

You still have room, you still store the guard tower chair in there.

I lost that.

I think it's still down there.

I don't know.

It's just an idea.

I've always conceptualized that if we do eventually build some sort of a civic center over here, it would have a story of offices that could be used for city staff.

I like the idea of it being a fox plan.

Absolutely.

We can start working on the and especially if we aren't moving forward with doing anything with that land right now.

We're talking about just having it be vacant for the next 15 to 20 years.

That's our next topic that very land.

So going from there from fire department means now it's the town center community buildings.

And I know all of us have had at least one meeting probably over the years with people who are interested in our 10 acres.

And it is prime 10 acres.

It might be the primest 10 acres left in Draper.

And we spent a lot of money to get the last five of it.

I believe it was 7.6 million to get the last five.

So it's not land that we didn't, you know, that wasn't painful to buy.

So and I know we have we've had people from like Gary Free wants to put a museum on there.

We had the tennis people that generously wanted to use our land to build a private tennis center.

Um we've had you know the singing group that wanted to build a theater there, and the arts council people have always talked about a big giant community center that would do all those things.

You can see from the current budget deficit of 1.442 million dollars.

Um, and then the immediate need for public works due to our needing to get vacate the pri property we're using.

You don't really have uh, you know, a way to I don't think personally gay engage in a town center situation any anywhere in the near future.

So then let's talk about and then Josh, you just brought up what if we put a legit a fire logistics office building in a sprung building on our property.

You certainly wouldn't need all of it.

You could do five acres of it and probably do what it got really good sized building.

Um so let's I guess what I was hoping we could do is get it out where we all are.

If you're all interested in trying to do some joint venture with the Gary Free type or anybody else, let's hash it through.

I mean, all the ideas are awesome.

We couldn't afford to operate it right now if we had the building built for free.

And I don't think any of those buildings are under 30 million dollars that you're talking, you know.

I mean, so go ahead.

Uh that was what I wanted you guys to discuss.

So we'd all get on the same page about where we want to be.

I think there are great ideas.

I mean, they would be cool.

Um I'd love to have like a health theater type facility.

I just don't know if we could do it.

The only way I see it happens, it happened through private enterprise, and I don't know that we're interested in that public.

Well, I don't know that we need a hail theater, especially not with this big venue coming on board point that's gonna be open.

It's true.

I think it's a different level though.

It's not it's a thing, you know, it's not gonna be five thousand, it would be five hundred but remember Juan Diego is building a new theater that will be open for recent, and what's the one over there with the traffic problem?

APA APA it has some huge massive theater that's just going in.

I mean so one diego's building a big a small theater, like I don't know 500 really seven hundred.

So it would be available for like symphony rent house.

And I think the one that what is it now?

I forgot APA is building is even bigger and it may be and it may not be in demand as much as the school districts facilities are right now.

Yeah, I mean there'll probably be more availability.

We do use APAs right now, which we're gonna do.

But they're one of some really huge thing.

Have you seen it right next to the final building?

It's just going up right now on the one across the room.

And yeah, I guess maybe the question too is do you want to master plan the 10 acres?

Like figure out what the coolest thing you could put there that would be the most paying for the buck, the most use.

Maybe maybe it's not all 10, maybe five is the a building for you know for our public needs, but the other five.

I mean, Harriman and and Mill Creek have the skating climbing wall.

And what's gonna be best for the community, and those things are well you I mean, I can ever come around Courtney Herman.

I'm watching the kids out there, they start, you know, they're just they use it in the summer for roller skating and the winter for ice skating.

They do, you know, Milker's really done it up because they have they have that little area along with a lot of other things.

We we can certainly do all of that here down the road.

I mean, it's not something we do right now, but would you rather draw a plan?

I mean, I I think at some point we need to let people know look, we're not even ready, or maybe you are.

Well, we we do have a master plan in terms of the stationary plan.

That was one of the purposes of that is to put up down a potential plan.

It it it's it's kind of these areas where the house is and the historical society is so west of that lane that goes down to the ivory property um was designated in the stationary plan as a public building of some sort, community building of some sort.

You know, I don't know that I want to see a fire department permanently right here, no offense.

I think.

I mean I could see it temporarily, but I wouldn't want to use five car acres right here in this prime area for a fire station.

I agree.

But I think I like the ideas.

I like the I ideas of the Mill Creek and the Caraman and like the city gathering place or a place that people come.

But I um am not sure it rises to like I think in in some time.

I don't I don't know that I think we're at Lake River where like we want to put out some request or whatever and that issues like we have higher priorities for our city right now.

But I don't know.

I don't think and I haven't met with people that I have talked to Gary Free on that, but when they I am not having people are having that people well the probably the very free thing for me at this moment in time is it really wouldn't be a city run building.

He's asking to lease the the land is that he was a free or I don't know, well like ten dollars a year or something.

And then put in like the Gary Free Museum, which I think could prove to be problematic for us depending on what he decides to highlight.

Yeah.

Right.

And to the mayor's point, we don't have any money to run it ourselves.

So we're gonna make it.

I just don't know that we're at a juncture where we're ready to I do think that these would benefit from some sort of a civic center.

I I'd like to see us have more basketball courts and someplace with a new track and those sorts of things, more city offices.

I'm less interested in the label building than I've ever been because of this new one coming on board at a point.

And I also just don't know how we would ever staff that that is a major concern.

The maintenance and everything.

Maintenance and the staffing and but it's gonna be a concerning for a recenter.

I kind of thought more with what Gary Freeze thought is they'd be better if they have they can find donors and everything.

They should just go find some land somewhere and I'll be able to do that.

Well, there's some little building for sale.

Oh, it's the it's right on the corner here of Fort and um Fort and Pioneer.

You know that the old medical offices just right there?

One story buildings with the four-way.

Oh, wait, right here?

Right here.

It's for sale.

No, well they called and they just said if we put it up for sale, would you be interested?

And I said yes, we would.

And she said, okay, I'll get back to the owner and let you know.

So she did say that she would let us know if they put it up shelf.

I could follow it.

That'd be perfect for the city.

Good for the museum.

Yeah, I think it would be so good for the kind of for the museum because it's one level.

Yeah.

It's you could do whatever you wanted, but then that's they're we don't have any like once that place is gone, there's no there's no plan for and that frees us up over here to Wow.

Would Gary buy buying now?

I don't think I don't know.

I think he's at the point where it's not that what he wants and he's done, right?

But the historical society I talk them they don't love what he's planning.

And and that's why I wanted to bring up the commun like our relationship with them because um you know, and I think we just need to find that as well.

But I think um he wanted to do something else, which I agree it might be better, you know, somewhere else.

I think that we need to decide um about the the hexarical society and their artifact who's who's are they and because I think that place would be great for it, you know.

It's really it's close to city hall.

Actually, could be a good spot.

It's a great location.

But I mean, are we are buying that with some money that we don't have?

You don't have any money to buy that place.

I mean I get you know uh with the if the if the historical society like was uh was trying to do some sort of a museum are are they thinking that's a city museum or a then museum that like I could see us helping them get in into the building while they're raising the funds for the building or something like that, but I don't see the city buying in for that.

Uh I don't know how they were I guess I can call back and see if they really are interested in selling how much more there have been communities who um you know value history and and preservation and stuff and then they raise the funds you know independently from from the city.

But again, I feel like they're it's in limbo with what the relationship between the city and the historical society is.

So I think we need to define that and then give them how is it right now?

I don't know anyway.

And then when that kind of pulled its tent, yeah.

They pulled their tent up.

The historical society was kind of uh de facto under our umbrella because we we helped them out.

But they are a 501c3 entity, which means that they've got a board that needs to make some decisions, but uh my understanding is that their board is not united in what they want to want to do.

But that'd be a separate thing.

Yeah, land.

What what is your position right now?

I think we should tell these people we're not doing land deals on this land right now.

We have to say I'm gonna win and we gotta figure out once the stationary plan starts coming together.

I mean, I'm I think we should deliver that message to Gary and anybody else that is looking at this land some way to somehow to use it.

Well, I think we just have a lot of people that look at that land and see free land.

Then they can put on it what they personally want to put on it, which makes it then not really a government building, which I think could be problematic.

In the stationary plan, we maintained ownership of all of it.

Right.

And we we were gonna build some leased you know, dwellings, retail all of it.

That was what the stationary plan you could change whatever you want, but I'm just saying for to give certain council members a break who keep getting phone calls about when can I do my museum on your on your land, right?

Let's take a let's make a policy decision that we're not doing anything on that land for the foreseeable future.

It's our land to plan down the road.

You got public works to do, you got fire office, you know, you got so many other things.

Plus, you gotta do it, you gotta do a tax increase this year to you know to put us whole.

I don't know how you do a tax increase and then build a giant building like that.

I just you'll get fried and then call the guy used to be.

Actually, when we build a building there, it needs to be a government building for public use.

I'm not sure that what Gary has planned is what the public would really want there.

There is a potential for the chapel by the wayside out there at the prison.

No one has any idea what is going to go.

I'll be honest, I'm just gonna say it.

I can't believe we're keeping that there.

Oh my god, but I do not love that building.

Wait, you can't go to the minutes and story we'll do.

I think there's some bad things that happen.

Oh, there's a story that goes from one thing to the next.

Oh, yeah.

The reason the shop would go to our prison sites is there.

So perish your thought is because there was a whole movement that took off after we all agreed to move the prison, then there was a movement to save the damn prison.

Yeah.

It was weird how it happened.

We were gonna move it and destroy it, and then all of a sudden we were gonna save cell block A and make it a bed and breakfast, if you will.

Which it kind of already was in a sense.

Because we were paying for it.

No, did not we have many meetings where the save the prison people were afoot.

And so we excoriated you didn't recover.

I was using it.

That's that's why we have a yeah, security measures.

Um, but so the compromise to saving cell block A, where certain rapist murders and child molesters were housed, was the chapel where certain rapists and child molesters worshipped during their time in the prison.

Um I made the motion to save said chapel by the wayside in exchange for not saving cell block A.

It actually will be a part of it'll be a mines.

But I just am like what I I from the run, I thought, oh, that's nice, and then we drove around it and I was like, like, yeah, push by deeper.

It was, but there's no governor's door.

That's what they said today.

They said it's Draft.

I wanted to tear it all down.

I didn't want to say that.

I mean it was.

Do they have some ideas for what they want to do?

They have no ideas.

But I've talked at the point meeting about that could be a Draper historical museum.

And they're they're got one model.

There's extreme possibility we should make that back.

I think that'd be great.

I think the current historical society would not go for that, but I think there's potential to do some fun things over there and make it like a historic center.

They wouldn't, the current doesn't have any interest in that.

No, we they like to just come here it's a clubhouse.

It's a place to gather and still that's why this other building would maybe be good for them.

So are you guys good on the on the 10 acres of what taking a step back?

Are we all in agreement?

We're not we're not ready to do that in any near free.

We've invested a lot of money saving that land.

And when we did that, that was kind of how I had in my head.

That was my contribution to this future civil center here.

So I didn't see it actually coming on board in the next ten years.

I thought, well, the land is preserved and that was the main thing, so that some point in the future it can be something.

I don't think we're in a financial position anywhere anywhere near in the next maybe in five years we will be if we do arrive.

Well, another consideration I really have on this is what we have approved for town center is pretty awful.

I mean, if it really gets built out like those horrific plans that we were forced to approve, that's gonna be really freaking dense.

Like density like you have not seen before in Draper.

And it may be that we need to have this just the open space to kind of offset all of these massive housing projects.

I think the densities of the stationary plants going forward are gonna go down so I hope so.

I hope so.

I do, but you're right.

If we got built how it is, it's 50 units an acre.

Yeah, and it's it's a housing project, like you see in New York City, and if that's just right there, the kind of traffic it's gonna bring and the workiness of it, I think you might just want meadows here, truly.

How beautiful is that though that we at least have 10 acres that we can make a park if we need to.

So I think that might be something we need to do to wait depending on an ice skating park or it could be.

It would be larger.

One of those belts that like goes around, those are so cool.

But it might not be something we want to put another giant blocky building on.

We just don't know yet.

So the consensus is we're not planning on that land for now.

Yes.

Is that yes that everybody's gonna be able to do that?

I know I'm not the museums go back.

I mean, I I just I want you know, kind of to what the point is I want it to be done well.

I don't want to rush into anything, but I also think it would be nice to have a plan and saying this is what we want, and then if something comes up where we oh we can do it, we're ready to go, you know.

So that would just be my Gary Free?

No, no, no, no, no.

I just like a me, I want a museum.

I want to make sure that we preserve let's see if there's a way we could do something with this property over here.

Might even be able to find donors that could help purchase it's historical permission or whatever they're called.

Are they society?

Are they in a place to if there were were this other possibility?

Are they in a place to do a large-scale fundraising effort?

No.

Um I think what who would do it would be the preservation commission because they're more engaged, they're passionate, yeah.

They have a lot of um experience and education within within the state, and so they have the resources to do the historical society.

But the historical society has the stuff.

Yeah.

Well, they got it.

And like jars.

Like it's my mom has some, she'll be happy to from my grandmother's house and mason jars and 1937 because it's in a neat old and neat glass while so the preservation commission is meeting with the historical society, they're trying to catalog everything and try to get an idea of what what you know is there and if there's anything of value.

I went over there, we did cameras, they had a whole case of cameras.

So cool.

So I think there's some things that would be interesting, but the historical society doesn't have the resources to do it.

I think preservation does, but that's not really their um preservation wanted to, or they're they're just helping them out, but they don't want to take them on or something like that.

I don't and I don't know any of the politics.

So this the historic commission, their their purview is preserving historical buildings.

Insight.

So they could do sites too.

And whereas the historical society is preserving the history and the writings that's like oh, there's lots of people.

Oh, there's lots.

There's tons.

There's tons of papers.

All yes.

All sorts of all like that.

There is nothing digital.

I just wonder like I appreciate that this.

I love that there is a champion for the history on the city council.

And also I'm wondering how it gets to happening.

Like is the idea that the city council or the city is going to champion doing this and then work.

I it makes more sense to me if that is actually ever going to happen, that there is some sort of organization that is going to be fundraising.

Maybe the city's gonna be putting in money too, but some organization is gonna be have to be the owner behind it.

And I just which they have the structure to do it because of their 501c.

They could they would need but but but you've got people that that's just not their skill set to do it, but they they have the structure in place that we if somebody came in and provided them with direction, they could do that.

Yeah, but yeah.

So again, that's kind of what I wanted to talk about a bit later on, like to talk about our relationship with them.

Can we do one big thing for that?

So we got the land figured out, we're gonna tell everyone we're backing off on it.

I'm happy to deliver that message if you want me to.

That we're not that land's not even on the table.

Um next item is and this number four is the enterprise fund.

Um so we have a few of them, but one of the ones we want to talk about is solid waste.

Um, as you all are aware, right before the election, we did raise the rates on the private streets, which was not as well received as you might have thought amongst the received about as well as we probably didn't raise the rate, we just moved it all to private.

But what what really happened?

We raised the rates.

I mean that was really the message that I got as I was out and about campaigning and doing the final months, weeks of uh talking to the neighbor.

So we did we privatized it, but that caused the rate to go double 30, whatever.

So $37.

When I'll be brief on this because most of you know it, but when I was a council member, our assistant finance director at the time who John knows well, came to us one day when we were battling contracts between I think we were using waste management, I can't remember.

It was one of the two, but they they did a rate increase.

They they raised the price on their contract, and it was a lot, a couple bucks, like back then, five bucks or something.

So the council, Denise Steck came to us and said, Hey, I think we could do in-house garbage and we could make money at it and and do better service.

So we studied it, we did it, and we made money out of for a long time.

We stopped making money out of John when 2004, 24, 24, 20.

Yeah, 2004.

Yeah, keep in mind in garbage service.

We used a contractor, it was either Ace or waste, I can't remember which one.

We did all the billing, we managed all the cans.

So if you had a garbage can issue, you call the city, say bring a new can.

We build everybody.

One of the things we found when we went to our in-house service is there was a significant number of citizens who were not paying for garbage.

They'd gotten a can, they took a can, somehow a can blew into their driveway, they ended up with three cans.

But when they when we first started collecting garbage draper city, people were calling and saying, Hey, no one came down my garbage.

And we said, Hey, you gotta pay for four years.

That's why.

Um so there was some of that.

So but now we're at a point where we're accounting for it correctly, at least the cost of these damn trucks, which is high, and the cost of the drivers, and the cost of the occasional boom hitting a Land Rover with four specialized S work bikes on it.

Um that fire house.

But I don't think it was a landover.

Go ahead.

So this is again back to the um projection.

So we on the left you have the budget.

That's budget revenue and expense because we have a balanced budget, and then uh the center column is what we actually got as far as revenue, and then the far right would be our actual expenses.

Um so as you're looking at it, we're spending most of it is just operations.

So the blue represents just operational costs.

Umran is capital expenses, so you can see the cost of a truck, a garbage truck on there every year or pretty close to every year.

It's an expensive proposition, half a million dollars.

And then the silver that actually helps us as far as some of the revenue has been the great interest rates that we've had recently that are soon to be going away.

So you can see 25.

We uh were upside down in the fund.

We knew we would be upside down because we do have a fund balance up in the upper right-hand corner of 4.2 million dollars.

Um we made a decision that we would spend some of that fund balance.

Um but we're at a point where we will look and come to you with some proposals because we cannot continue to sustain that at a loss like that.

These are proprietary funds that really need to make not make money, but they need to break even.

And so we will come to you with some proposals to figure out what that looks like.

Um reserve.

Cool.

Isn't that about like more than 100% reserved?

Yeah, but that's an enterprise form.

Yeah, it's different than our if you look at our loss, the amount we're gonna lose just in 26, and combine that with we got in our property tax, and if we were there's our there's our deficit right there.

But but this is fund a property tax.

That's part of the deficit.

Isn't that around the whole thing?

But isn't this is this in our is this in our budget at all?

No, yeah, this is in our budget, but not within the general fund budget.

So the numbers we were looking at were strictly general fund before, and this is a separate fund.

So none of this is in the market.

Right.

So in total, the city budget is um not just the 54 million that sits in the general fund, it's 200 million when you have all of the funds put together, maybe not quite that much.

But Fred, you're right, we're losing about a million dollars, correct?

And we did already last year, we're gonna lose another million dollars.

Yeah, that's stupid.

That's insane.

So we're we we're gonna lose two million.

That's that's so that solid waste fund balance we had was up six something.

Yes.

It was that's right.

Because there were years when it was good, right?

Like the problem is two problems number one.

We have not raised our garbage rates ever one single time.

So not one time.

Since you started since we started not one time, I mean third bar.

Yeah, that's gonna show you how to do that.

No, yeah.

It was two thousand dollars on the council.

I don't want to say, that sucks.

Why is everything this year?

People oh I know thumbs down welcome.

This is look at this.

We've been losing money for the last two years.

Clearly, yes.

Two reasons.

Number one, we have never raised the rates, so we're we're at fifteen dollars a month for that first base can and one recycling can.

You pay more if you have more cans.

Um, that's what's number one problem.

Number two problem is the cost of the trucks, like fire trucks, police cars, and pickup trucks has all gone through the roof.

Yeah, um, and we're properly accounting for the actual cost.

We're we're truly accounting for the cost of replacing a truck as it comes on, comes due.

One upside is we aren't going to the dump anymore.

Um, our trucks aren't driving out to the west South Jordan Lampfill, they're going to the Sandy Transfer Station, which is gonna save its own fuel and maintenance because they're not driving in the news pit, which wrecks everything.

Um for how long though?

Well, they're always gonna go to the transfer station from now on.

But the cost from the transfer station to the new landfill.

Yeah, the problem with garbage is we can raise our rates to get the break-even point.

It'll probably be a $37-ish amount of money for that base service.

So if you're paying $15, you're gonna get that.

Hopefully, we'll do it better.

Um, where rates are going up to $37 a month.

Now, people are probably not gonna like that.

I can just take my little experience going out and talking to them.

Um but the problem with staying in the garbage business is really this.

We'll have to raise those rates to break even.

It'll always have to go up a little bit every now and then because of the cost of everything.

But then garbage in general, the rates are gonna just they're gonna they're gonna ratchet because as soon as that landfill closes, and it's I think it's only got seven years now left on it, then all the trash in our Trans-Jordan landfill cities goes to the transfer station, gets slowed in a semi-truck, and is driven a hundred plus mile round trip to the down south end of Utah County.

So if we stay in the garbage business as a city, we're always gonna be fighting this rate increase because we're gonna have to pass all that on to our customers.

So that's really the question.

If you want to do how much of it costs, like what's the difference and go to privatize?

That's the right.

If you are interested in we need to find out proposition, then we can look to see what that would be.

I I think we need to find out.

I mean, if we keep going how we're going, we're gonna be out of the fund balance.

We'll be gone in the next three years.

Right.

Right.

Or four.

We do provide really good service to our customers.

Yeah.

And we and everybody's paid.

If you go to a contractor, you still have to manage the cans because they won't manage the cans.

And we'll still do the billing.

And we'll still do the bill.

So can do we know what rate when you study this, we need to figure out what rate we need to get at to pay for it.

So and then we can compare that.

There are multiple options that need to be considered, and I think that we need to be able to present that to you or discreet, right?

So to help you make that decision because this is a very sensitive issue.

We have to keep providing the service.

Um there is no other option right now.

So one of the downsides, if you will, the contracting is once you're on the contract, you're on because there's only two of them that do it.

Ace there's a third that's trying to break in.

There's only there's only a couple of cities that do what we do.

Um I think Spanish Fork, right?

Springville.

Springville.

Um, I don't even think St.

George does.

Maybe they do.

I don't know.

Well, maybe we need it.

What we need to figure out what we need to be charging.

We've got to do a rate increase like this year.

Yeah, for sure.

Some amount for sure.

And we can come back to you with a couple of different proposals.

But we're gonna do that early, so yeah.

It won't be a long time out there.

Are you all good with getting some proposals, rate increases?

I think it would.

I I think getting the proposals and having an idea on how much it's gonna cost, even if we're not talking publicly about privatizing, um, just knowing that would be helpful because either way we're gonna have to increase.

Um so when we're trying to sell an increase to the public, it doesn't matter if we're what we're doing behind the scenes, we still want to know how much we need to raise it.

I don't know.

Anyway, we I I just think whether no matter what the end, if we stay the way we are or not, we have to the consistent message I got going to the HOAs when we when we know privatize those roads.

It's really interesting.

They were very mad about the increase in price, but they were most mad that they were getting charged more than their neighbor was.

And as soon as I told them, well, your neighbor's gonna get the same increase, it seemed to nullify most of it.

Well, well, that's okay.

Well, I'm still mad about it, but I'm happy to know they're gonna pay too much.

It was you know, because it was like the disparity of cost, like nobody wanted to feel like they were paying more than everybody else.

Like the discrimination word is thrown around a few times for me, and I was like, no, no, no, that's not even in the realm of discrimination.

But anyway, so you guys are good with getting some numbers analysis and whatnot.

Okay.

And we'll come back not just with solid waste, um, just like we've done in the past with water and other places, we will come back with some information about these coast funds.

Oh and yes, and there is a bill.

There is there is a water bill that lower your hair back.

Yep, we collect a tax and we get none of the money.

No, actually, they clarified today it does not go to the state, it stays in the city, but if you but you have to have collected it if you want to tap into state funds.

Wait, so what's this bill?

Give me it.

So they they've done Zion's public finance did a study of what I call the cost it's going to be ransom.

Cost the whole state to upgrade water systems over the next 20 or 30 years and came up with a number.

There's a bill that says if a city has a water project or uh a district has a water project and wants state money, they have to have remember the numbers, charged, increase its rates by the number of connections multiplied by the medium income times one and a half, and like a city like highland size did a quick calculation, it was like 25 million dollars that they're gonna have to raise their water rates.

It it's astronomical, yeah.

But what happened is the Central Utah project was a federal deal bureau reclamation project.

A while back, and it's been I think it's been a decade, the federal government said, we're out of this business.

You local governments, it's yours.

Pipes and dams.

Oh, we're gonna keep a couple of the dams though, the ones that make electricity, Hoover, Glen Canyon, or Glen Canyon, uh Glik Powell, and Flame and Glory.

We're gonna keep those because they make money, but you get all the Deer Creeks and Jordan L's and every single earth and dam across the whole dam, all the transmission lines, all the pumps, it's all on the locals now, and that's why this is coming.

By the way, you get to maintain them too, right?

No, that's what I mean.

You get it all, it's yours.

Oh, and you've got to pay us back for building it.

There's a fee going back to the federal government for building it all.

That's where that's why this is that builds around.

So you be it's it's absolutely crazy.

That's like your daddy paying for your college tuition and then saying, oh, hey, 20 years later saying, Oh, I want my tuition back.

With interest.

It's H HP 501 if you're interested in the well good news is the such recharge project got created Utah because if they hadn't thobbed through it wouldn't, we wouldn't all be here, but yeah, now we're all gonna pay back for it.

So it's gonna pass this one?

I don't know.

It it's I mean the league is still, I don't think the league has taken a position yet on it, but it's got legs.

It's got some legs, but it's the league position itself out.

The problem is all these transmission lines, some of them are at 75 years old.

Right.

They got it, and they're huge pipes.

They're 36 inch interior dimension pipes or 67 inches providing.

So you're saying we're just gonna have to eat this.

We're gonna have to pay for it some way or another.

Yeah, but anyway, okay, that takes that's all the big stuff I have as far as like money-wise in the future.

Sorry, so water do we're doing we're doing way better on water than we are on because we've already raised rates.

Because we've raised rates incremented over the last two or three years.

We also just got a grant um from the United from the United States government for two million dollars to help with our redundant water line issue on Suncrest.

But you you can see the yellow there are transfers from the general fund into the water fund to be able to cover some of those known projects that we've had, right?

So we transferred 1.2 million in 22.

We transferred 1 million in 24 and two and a half in 25.

And we we did that from the general fund with you know, like in 25, it was we had money that we got from selling cemetery property that we couldn't leave in the fund because we had a threshold that we couldn't exceed.

So we made a wise transfer into the water fund that we know had some expenses and needs.

And there's a lot of this water work, sunk crust where the pipes have been failing.

Yeah, but it's you know, the our water system, if you really look at it holistically, it's probably as complex as any in the whole country.

The amount of pump stations, the pressure, the the pressure reducing valves, most cities don't have any of that to do that.

Right, but that's all sunk crest, right?

That's all getting this water.

South mountain.

Yeah, two mountains.

Um anything, any elevated water.

I mean, if you're not on water pro, you're getting it pumped to you.

So right here in the valley.

We I mean we have on the west side, it's ours, but water pro has about two-thirds of the city, and we now about third.

But I mean, I'm in South Mountain on WaterPro.

Not a lot of communities build homes that pump water up the hill.

Not very many not all the pipes were laid as poorly as they were laid in Suncrest.

Correct.

A lot of the problems.

Yeah, that's a lot of the problem is those are all going out.

I mean, we're up there every weekend with some broken pipe.

We have been making some significant improvements that have helped tremendously with that.

Um just proactively, we've been replacing valves.

Uh like last year we did over 70 valves, uh, which helps significantly.

Yeah.

No, I mean, kudos to your team because no one wants to be out of water.

Certainly not for any significant amount of time.

The potential for catastrophic failure is fairly high, and so we're attacking those issues first, and we have them for four years of plus.

Well, definitely.

There's still a lot to do, and if we don't do it and we have a catastrophic failure, there's no question who's gonna fix it.

And the good news is if we do the redundant line, you know, a redundant water line essentially from Mike Weir up to Tank 4, which is our plan.

Um, that once that gets put in, we have the ability then to keep to work on the transmission line that's in the road, we have a way to actually go address it because otherwise it gets addressed when it blows a hole in the road at 400 PSI.

Um that's an explosion.

That's like more pressure than the bottom of the Glen Canyon Dam or the Hoover Dam coming out of the pipe.

Well, we got two million from the federal government, we got a loss of we got we're solid community.

I think we've got enough, we're getting close to be able to fund it, right?

Part of it we're engineers, man.

Engineers, as we say.

And we're gonna do as much as we can, and that's what we're doing right now, is determining what we can do with that.

Well, we probably need to do another water rod rate increase as well.

Depending on what this bill has, we're probably gonna have to do something to keep ahead of it.

So Captain, do you say you were anti-tax increases?

How many are we at now?

Yeah, again, why this year?

Why does everything want you want to I will keep your taxes?

No.

Just kidding.

Don't run on that.

They're actually low.

They are not necessarily.

I think probably you better believe up.

Yeah, they're explaining why we have to raise the data.

I think you know, trash, there's a very clear fiscal reason.

Like we are losing money every year on it.

We have to raise the rate.

So I'm okay with those things that you can explain.

Like, we just like my family has to pay for our bills, so is the city, but it's the ones that are a little shier that are harder.

Yeah, and it's hard when it's many at once.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, some pressure reducing valves are over a million dollars apiece, so that's what it is, right?

Yeah.

And kudos to Mr.

Cooley, because prior to him, we didn't even have like backup generators on the pump stations.

These things were just sitting out there.

If power went out, they were out, it was off.

Okay.

So let me ask this question.

If all of these things that we're talking about requiring increases for, how does that actually work out in real life?

Is that a general fund?

What is it?

It's a property tax increase for all of them.

And so it's a fee increase.

So we will we would and and what I can do is give you a list of all of the things that would be proposed.

Okay.

So because it would be a property tax.

Yes.

Yes, because it would only be property tax, but you don't have to do a truth in taxation hearing to raise water rates.

You don't have to do it.

Right.

Truth and taxation to raise garbage rates.

We do that.

But it'd be a public thing.

There is a public hearing here.

Yeah.

Associated with the budget.

Yes.

Okay.

But you don't have to do them all in the same meeting either.

Nope.

You could and be done with it.

Well, you typically you do it as hard.

You would do it with the budget typically.

So it really would be in the same meeting.

So when would that be?

June?

Just one time.

Maybe it's on the same budget.

May would be the first two thing in May is the date to adopt the tentative budget.

I think I'm actually the question.

I'm gone the first Tuesday in May.

We're we're gonna there's no quorum.

Oh, isn't that convenient?

Well, somebody's not going on a trip.

Oh it'll still be a good one.

That's the big stuff I was the most worried about to talk to you all about.

Um what's the 5A one about Draper Council staff interaction policy?

So some of our committees, um sorry, I don't mean to I'm not gonna go.

Some of our committees seem to think, like I'm talking committees, other committees seem to think that they're entitled to direct staff to come to their meetings, have staff members as part of their whole operation.

Um that's one of the issues, right?

So these committees are citizen-appointed committees by appointed by me and approved by you.

They don't spend money, they don't appropriate money, they don't sign off on anything, but some of them have gotten a little bit dragging staff members in to right.

Um four or five staff members at tree committee meeting, and thinking that that's part of the what goes on or or whatever it is.

So we got I don't think the staff ought to be going to any of these committee meetings.

They're committee meetings for the for the citizens, but well, they have a one staff meeting on to like record it and do the agenda and then up to I think they all have one staff leading.

Yeah, but some of them have been bringing in more.

So there's no question.

No question.

Right.

So I wanted to talk about that policy.

Well, I think the tree committee was just asking they they pushed for us to have an arborist, and they were always then they were confused as to why isn't the arborist coming to the treat committee.

I think that's where that one is.

I there's there's two department directors that attend, there's somebody else from Sparks that attends, they often summon in a planner, they often summon in an engineer.

Another one.

Are they summoning them in or saying because they're they're exploring things that are way beyond their statutory scope?

And and we need direct I either change the scope or they need to reign in directives.

Who you're going through, either them or me, and then that's it.

But I think they're staff person.

So that goes with a broader policy of Taylor.

Yeah.

And you guys are good about this, but this goes to the broader policy of it is you individually don't get to call department directors and tell them what to do.

Like that's the same thing that these committees are trying to do, like give direction.

We we gotta we gotta always remember that it takes three of you to give actual direction, and we can't you know, we can't.

This is what these these three committees essentially directing staff, and they're even less apt, even less uh responsible to do it than you are, but they've been doing that.

But even us as a group, we gotta be careful about how we over we we have for a while, it hasn't been like this where we had staff members just we had all these open projects.

There's a certain period of time where this policy was adopted, and we and those of us who are there live through it, know exactly why the council adopted a policy about that certain council member that's no longer with us, but um well it was it was I it was like you would have council members that would have that one would call the city manager and say, Hey, let's do this.

And the city manager would be like, Oh, start doing it or you know, because no one wants to tell a council member no, but we gotta have one point of but if I have an issue with something, I don't go to the department.

I go to Mike and say, here's a here's something can you handle it?

I look into it and I you know they're all good about it.

It wasn't like that.

It wasn't his policy was was adopted.

No, I thought you pushed out about that that I read with good information.

Like you can go to a department head if you have a specific easily answered question.

Because I do appreciate doing that, and you guys are great about that.

Like I go to Scott when I'm like, okay, what is this thing this resident wants?

Yeah.

Um, I thought that was clear and I'm great to answer questions.

Yeah, I have no issue with that whatsoever.

And I can help you on technical issues like when you're struggling to someone's asking a hard question about traffic or something.

I can answer those questions fairly easily.

Yeah.

Usually, yeah.

Um so I I don't have any issue with that.

I try, I know Dobbins wanted us to CC.

Yeah, that's why I'm gonna ask the.

So I try when I ask Clint a question, I ask you a question.

I try to have you or you on there so you see what it is.

But I'm not ever trying to direct you.

I'm usually trying to respond to a resident.

I don't want to get it wrong.

I don't think you guys do that at all.

I wish more residents were coming to us for credit.

But we've got these committees that are trying to do with it.

We gotta reign it back in.

I think you got the liaison to the committee, and that one staff member.

They got something they want to bring more than that, they need to run through us.

Well, we have two at Parks and Trails too, right?

And I think it's Brad and Brad.

I don't think Rhett.

Yeah, I believe.

Well, he used to go.

But that's a bunch of parks and yeah, that's a big committee though, too.

I don't know.

But I mean the policy has to be the same consistent, and it should be that committee should be the same size as the other committees, right?

You know, in theory.

Yeah, they're but by by code, they're all the same size for depends on the so if one has three and one has one, we've got to I'll tell you what my position is.

I've had this conversation with with Jen and Rhett as asked to the treatment specifically, is every one of my department directors is um uh I I use a term working director, right?

So Scott is involved in the day-to-day goings on Clint is um John is because none of us have a deep administrative staff, you know, and so I don't want if I can avoid having department directors at another meeting every month when Taylor can handle it, or you know, uh Todd Draper, or you know, whoever is deputy or assistant could be there freeing up the department directors to do what what what they've got enough on their plates right now without having to do that.

I I feel really bad making staff stay late too, like or come in the butt but we we know that's part of the job.

I don't think anybody and then I know, but some people maybe tell it are at City Hall too often on my personal time then on weekend.

Um David Webs is gonna take the community engagement one, so that will free me up.

Yeah, I'm taking our 1550, but that's temporary, so we're trying to because we we've got excellent people in second in command, third in command, whatever it is, we've got excellent people that are more than capable of liaising with the the council member who's assigned as well as the committee that they're assigned to.

And keeping the director informed.

Make it all consistent going.

So it's it is consistent.

It needs to be fair, yeah.

It should be fair.

And I think it would be helpful to let the uh committees and commissions know like this is what we're doing, um, these are the expectations because I think some of them, you know, if they're used to having all these people, you know, I think it's having to understand why we're moving this direction and and really what their role is, because I think really the tree committee didn't know, and so I tried to sit down and explain it to them.

I think that might be helpful at these meetings, maybe the first year, just to let everybody know these are our policies regarding the committees.

I think it would be a valuable use of our time in a study session to take one committee each study session and say, okay, let's talk about the tree committee.

What really is our goal for the tree committee?

What do we want them to be working on this this year?

Would we invite them be aware of the day to be?

They can always come and sit here, but they can participate.

Yeah, but we could just say, like, we're gonna be discussing tree committee on this one.

Well, I think that they used to like at one point Parks and Rack came to a meeting and kind of gave us an update on what they were doing, and but I think they might have been the only one we did with Democrat Planning Commission recently.

Yeah, I think the other ones we kind of it's weird that tree committee, because over the years they have like always been the committee that's tried to jump the rails and like start doing like becoming like the planning staff.

I remember when I was the first council member, they were they had somehow commandeered signing off building plans.

Yeah, and we found out about signing plats, yeah.

We were like the hell to the nut, you're not doing that.

But they were doing it, they just that committee for some reason just thinks they're uh supposed to tree committee than defense.

I I do think that they're whatever their auspices are, I think it's a little confusing because I when I was the liaison to tree committee, they really wanted to have more to do with parks, which I didn't think was absolutely ridiculous.

I mean, I when I was delaying to parks and trails, we talked about trails 99.9% of the time, and rarely do we actually talk about city parks.

And the tree committee really has to do with parks and greenery and so what if we break up and have a parks and trees committee and then a trails committee.

We've talked about that the parks and trails committee is extremely opposed to that.

Um like I said, they don't seem to be invested in the city parks.

The most of that parks and trails committee is trails.

So it's trails.

I think it should be trails and open space.

Yeah, and then how trees should be trees and parks is what makes sense in my I think it would make a lot of sense to do that.

But I mean I've said that before and it's not been well received for the well but it's not the parks and trails committee to make that decision.

Yeah, right.

Because I'm on board with you.

I think it would would make more sense.

Right, and it goes to number seven, city beautification, because I do think the tree committee should think about city beautification.

They're actually very passionate about that.

We have an eye to water-wise landscaping, which they are amazing about the city.

Well, that would be a good purview for them to do.

Yeah, well, their expertise in water wise landscaping with Michelle Coker as the vice chair.

I mean, she's phenomenal.

Oh, she's the she knows it.

She knows it, and she could be a great person to be looking at our parks and saying, let's move in this direction.

And you don't want to lose their the people like that that are wanting to do things for the city.

And the classes she's putting on are amazing for our residents, and they're always in the summer.

I want to do anything in tree talks.

I thought she's doing a tree talk this month and next month the local kit.

She's great.

I mean, she's a tremendous asset.

So the tree committees asked me multiple times about the city unification, which is why I wanted to talk about it too tonight because they've got funds.

They've they're passionate about it, they're the ones that are noticing it.

Don't they have like 10 grand or something that they have to that was donated to spend?

So they had a private donor donate money.

For trees for trees.

Who who do they donate the money to?

Yes I know you you're reading my mind here.

Because they don't they don't have the they can't handle money.

No they made a donation for the city.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah they should receive the donation.

We are aware of it.

I don't know whether I'm going to say we've your parking because this donor has come back to them multiple times and said where was the money used?

I wanted it to be used for trees.

I don't see any you know evidence of it being used in the tree committee.

So we we haven't been able to because you know what they were telling me was that they were told they can't plan any more trees because we didn't we didn't have the staff to maintain them right.

So I didn't wasn't able to go to the February meeting.

But I know now that there's the arborist I think they would really like to be able to use these trees plant these trees.

I think they also have they have a r uh some in like sitting in a nursery or something to use too.

So they have a lot of trees to use.

And so I was thinking that you know at these entrances you know kind of what Linda brought up is that that could be a an area to use that and to engage tree committee because I think what what they need to do is and this is what always makes me nervous about them is is they need to come then to the council with some advice.

A a project we we go ahead no keep going.

I think they have that's the thing is I I don't know Bran you're the one that needs to talk on this 'cause it's your committee but I think how did they try to like make suggestions on where to plant the trees.

Um I mean I I think they've wanted to plant trees and you know they'll like for Arbor Day they came up with to do it by um the discal thing.

Um but I from what I understand is that when they've asked you know can we plant trees somewhere the response has been we can't maintain new trees.

And that might change now that we have an arborist.

So that is where I think they just I think they've kind of that's probably where it's bottlenecked Mike is their that they can suggest I don't I love the idea of the beautification though to tie this in like with the entrances.

Yeah but I mean to Riverton today and then we've run great signs I drove out of Riverton and said we are so lacking in that area.

But Linda was just showing us those new you know doing new signs in the areas and you could tie it in with all this If I know an issue that's come up in the past is water to some of those and so I did look at the R and finders and it is not a water landscape thing.

It is just very nice signage where I was yeah but then some places where you would have access to water like that one by potentially the future Smiths we could probably work with water.

Well and then like if you think about the one coming down 13th east where there's a little 100% like there's grass there that we're watering so there's a quantity yeah.

And I think my question would be because I did ask everybody about these and I've done it multiple times and so I think for me is okay if I get something from a committee that says we'd like to do this or you know even you know this is a suggestion what's the best best path to make it happen because I was waiting for this tonight to talk about this beautification right because I've I've mentioned that I think we need to do these entrances that the tree committee has said you know they're they have an eye on those.

So I think my question is what's but because I thought my voice isn't being heard either right so when I bring stuff up you know I'm nothing happens either.

So well if if you I mean if your question is how to get it on an agenda it's just a matter of according to policy we just talked about it's just getting somebody else to join you with that and say let's put that on agenda.

What I'd like to do is our next study session is to let let's let's go over our code as to what the tree committee is tasked to do.

Yeah.

And if if we're good with that great if we're not let's band it around and s and see what what else we ought to be doing.

Is it is it okay are we pushing this too hard about what if we did a parks and trees committee and a trails and open space.

In their title is Parks Trails and recreation committee.

Yeah could we change it in the recreation do they guys sit in the committee.

So we could get rid of that at the same time.

I mean we're what we just kinda I think it's great.

I mean we redid the events committee and combine that with they wouldn't tracy changed the code on that a little bit too difficult.

I mean, I think the people that are on the tree committee like Michelle and all the other members care enough about they would love to community the park.

You know, I don't think the truck we could use some nice entrances.

I mean, we can't do that.

Well, I mean, you and Bryn could maybe smooth that over with your committees and explain it in a way that it actually makes logistical sense, right?

It makes sense for the tree committee to be watching the landscaping in the parks.

I mean, it doesn't really make sense for the trails committee to be trying to do the water-wise landscaping and parking.

And they're not doing that, and they don't have the expertise to do that.

Well, look how big our trails are too.

Right.

There's 5,000 acres of open space.

I think it should be trails and open space.

That's a good idea.

Parking throws them.

Just to bring this question though, like right now, as it stands, if your committee has something that they'd like to do, and you're trying to get a book, like it's interesting to me.

I don't know when the ten thousand dollar donation came in, but that we have this ten thousand dollars that was supposed to be for trees that we haven't used, it sounds like and and they feel like at least the tree committee feels like maybe they have tried to get it used, but it hasn't been answered.

So what is the like so I think it would make a lot of sense for Brynn to say to talk to you or to IRP or whomever she wanted to talk to about it and say, I'd like to bring to a study session the idea of tree committee putting forward a plan to do city beautification at the future Smith site with a gateway entrance sign or whatever you call them.

And that would be our project for 2026-2027.

And that would be very timely because we're in the process of doing the development agreement.

I'm I I think that would be splitting those committees up makes sense to me.

I mean I felt that time to do it.

I felt that way for a long time.

You know, it's probably on it, but then getting them to do it.

They were so.

Well, you guys are in charge of them, so they got saved.

They don't like I mean it's yeah, I don't want to sound like we're if you're willing to like I'm willing to bang it out with them.

Yeah.

They they just they really are that involved with parks.

Yeah, I would be surprised if it's that big of a fight.

I'll I'm I'm sure.

So you'd call it the tree and that's where most of their focus is trees and parks, trails and open space.

Yeah.

And then they could take on projects like our parks and trees.

I mean, I'm sure they'd they'd probably go kill it.

You know, would the beautification and everything be a part of it?

I think it's great.

We can put all that energy in the city.

Park communication.

But then are people like, hey, what happened to the tree committee?

I think it would be part like it would be part of that.

I mean, uh l let's start and let's look at uh what the scope is in our code for the tree committee and make whatever changes feel are necessary, or or leave it as it is, and then probably the same with the parks and trails.

Right.

Yeah, and I am now Brynn with the historical or this historic preservation with me.

I've never had that job before.

Yeah.

I'm not totally sure what their scope is or what they're supposed to be working on.

I would appreciate talking about that with all of you in a study.

Yeah, we could do that, absolutely.

Yeah, I think that'd be helpful.

I think it'd be really nice to hear what you guys want us to work on.

I think they should jump on that chapter.

No, I'm serious.

Yeah, we talked about it like that.

I really did.

Because the the point doesn't have they have no plan.

They would love someone to start trying to figure out how to help out there.

Yeah, well, that would be a really good thing for them to talk about.

Another property though, right here too, would be that'd be amazing if that could be a museum.

I agree.

It would be perfect because it's an it's a historic building.

It's pretty size, and it's pretty big and did you guys go in when you wanted to do it.

But it's money.

Well, in the general no, it's a money question.

I mean, can we get very clear to it?

Yeah, it would be that much if you want.

I mean, and maybe he would if they use like I'm just going to do the museum and the building, the medical office building.

The property wants a lot of money for their stuff in the state.

It looks historically that building.

It does be like a syllabus and they get into the cue.

But couldn't for training, can you use the buildings at the aquarium?

Are we supposed to have some deal with them where they let us use some of their they don't even give it the breakdown catering?

Yeah, I mean we have a deal with this park school is supposed to give us an office.

Yeah, they were supposed to give they were supposed to give the council members offices over there.

Wait, what school?

The park school.

We were even supposed to have an office over there.

At the city, really.

Yeah.

The challenge with training is is that scheduling and again their accommodations down there, they're they're pretty stringent on a few things.

They're they're pretty stringent on a few things.

And for some of the stuff that we do, it just it's just not feasible to be able to use their space for that type of training that we do.

They just do have that huge new conference ones.

I went for legislative night the other night and it's huge.

Oh yeah, for everything.

Did you guys go in the new ballroom?

Yeah.

New bar in the space.

It's amazing.

And there's a big oh wow.

It's huge.

Uh shark.

Uh it's supposed to be the biggest one next to Grand American.

It is open.

It's big.

I mean, we never did.

I did a yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't know.

Like all of these businesses we've helped, they can't host Clint's team to do a conference for two hours.

I mean we could get the plural site building.

Do they have any availability that they would let us use?

You gotta lug all your stuff upstairs though.

Well, you know where we could get some where we could get some accommodation space is the school district.

We might be able to approach them about the IKEA facility.

I'm not the idea that evacuation.

Oh, yeah.

Are they even using that?

They said they're doing stuff.

Start using it actually this fall next fall.

But they might be amicable to provide us some space for temporarily for that kind of thing.

There's there's availability.

It's quite a remodel job they're doing on it.

They're adding a big section for uh text.

The C tag is so.

That's what they're gonna put they're gonna put a big couple big bays in or DC.

I I mean that current C tech here they're using a terrible to redo it.

I I feel for you though.

I feel like of all the departments, we really need our fire department to have training space.

Okay, how do we how do we explore that with the si with the the district?

I'll reach out to them tomorrow and see or this week and see what maybe what opportunities they got.

Is there anything else that any of you wanted to talk about?

Technically we can talk about the historical society.

Go for that.

How you I mean, because that's its own little deal.

Um that's an arts county arts, yeah.

So what I was wanting to discuss was it it kind of relates to these the committees that we have and that they have specific duties written within our code.

Historical society, I don't think we have any of that because I think we don't really understand what the relationship is like with the city.

Are they their own entity?

And if they're the their own entity, then what are their responsibilities, right?

Because right now we the they're using the building.

Um they're using Kelly kind of as a liaison, right?

Right.

But none of that you know um delineated in in any way.

But I think that we need to give them the the choice.

If we want to let them decide, then I think we need to give them a choice.

Do we we need to decide by the short time because you they're perfectly comfortable the way they are.

Right.

They should they either be in or out.

I thought the difference between the two groups was that the arts council very much wanted to be under the umbrella of the city and they wanted to be a city committee.

And the historical society was not so sure.

I think you're like an office of we have talked about making arts council a committee.

And and in fact, they would fit sort of on community engagement.

Is that in the visual arts committee?

No, it's gonna go.

They're like a foundation.

They but again we let I don't know if if they paid for to use the day bar, and I don't I don't know what those relationships are.

They don't pay to use the lobby.

I don't think we charge them for the day barn when they do their art in the barn.

And we don't charge the historical site anymore and we don't charge arts council to use the amphitheater center, but probably too much money.

We don't charge the our schedule to use the theater.

So do we get any of the money from the ticket sales?

How does that work?

I wish Fred was here.

He did.

So they have a lot of expenses that we do pay, and I think we do get ticket bills now.

I because recently I don't think they make tons of money from ticket sales, but they're you know I think they're at least self-maintained.

Yeah, yeah, that's what I would assume.

I think we can probably better than you think though.

They do provide a real service.

I'm a big fan.

I know so many community members that are very involved.

They're not their own entity, right?

Though the arts camps, I don't think so.

They're under our umbrella, sort of, but we haven't made them an actual committee.

Are they at 5012 three?

I don't think they are.

I don't think they are I thought they were part of the other foundation.

Well they were originally and then when they came well we probably should form an arts council council, like a city committee.

Or put a handful on the community engagement because they really are community engagement.

Yeah, they have a pretty big council though.

They do they make air.

Yeah.

It might need to be their own committee.

And we only have two spots right now at community engagement at all, but they will probably be ours.

And they get funding from Zap.

So they get funding from Salt Lake County.

Yeah, but doesn't that come to us?

I it can't be going to them.

John?

I I don't know.

I'm gonna have to look at that expert on the Arts Council.

I'll I'll s I'll get beginning with Rhett and I'll and Ren all sit down with you.

Because yeah, I just wonder how much they're still sustained.

Draft the choice that they need to make with this.

So can we do a study about the historical and what that would be like do a study setting?

He's on zero discount.

Yeah, but I think that's a good thing.

I think it's kind of we need to know what they do.

Well they want to stay exactly how they are where they have no responsibilities and we just do everything.

I don't think we can do that.

So I mean that's what they want.

And so they have to think they have to make possible grants from the very code funding.

Yeah, yeah.

We've had that conversation before, it's you like Tasha.

Yeah, and we're maybe gonna have to just be more direct.

I don't think that we trace only need a historical society and it is preservation.

Which one are we talking about?

Oh, historic preservation is five.

Yeah, but the society.

Yeah, but the arts council.

Right.

Do you think that's a good thing?

Well, one very elderly, which makes sense.

One is more RH people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

But how do you think that's a good idea?

I don't think we could find any sponsors.

I think they were either what they were the historical society.

So they registered with the state, but they haven't reached it with the IRS.

Yeah, but I think that's a good thing.

Okay, that's right.

That's who gives the 501c3.

Is the historical designation?

Are they at 5013 C the historical society?

No.

I don't think they are.

We couldn't find them when we looked at it.

Oh, okay.

So they're the do they they're just a domestic nonprofit, yeah.

They're registered with the state as an entity, but not with the IRM.

So would they be willing to do that?

So they still have an entity has authority.

Corporate entity and look at that.

And no, because they're domestic, but they're not a 501c3, which means you wouldn't have two get a tax break.

Well, and we can't really want to do this.

It's just not traditional, they sell books and stuff.

I don't know.

I think they probably couldn't from each other.

No, I I agree.

And it could be that the historical society is under preservation, right?

Yes.

I think that would make them combining them, you mean yeah.

Well, or I mean there needs like a defined relationship.

Yeah.

It would be nice to have them together.

Yeah.

They would help me.

Yeah.

I think they would help you.

I think they kind of need each other because you have a lot of money and some of them.

Great people that really know about museums.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The preservation commission, and I recognize them a little by it, but they're amazing.

So it's really good.

That's the thing, is that there really are people who are dynamic and engaged and passionate about history, and I think we need to take advantage of that because the historical society is a different group.

I think that the historical society is a little intimidated by this.

That they would be taken over.

Oh, and they're having that autonomy or the same thing.

Right.

But they're also like 86.

They are.

Well, even though so if you want to keep the historical going, you have to have some of these really passionate community members that are 40, you know, that are gonna continue with them.

One more question.

Who does the Swords in House?

Is that historic preservation?

Who owns it?

Who Jake does it?

It's actually a year and a half ago I found out that I was actually relative.

So I only buried in the cemetery too that I had no idea about.

That's awesome.

Does Jake own it?

Well, it was relative.

It's our person, it's not state.

I think it's all we only think it's ours.

I'm gonna ask Gary.

Yeah, who they're gonna do.

I go to the we go see Santa.

We love it.

Yeah, Santa's kids love it.

He's a no lines, nice Santa.

We so we're fans, but I wonder who's not bad.

Just two quick things.

Um with the parks and trails, if we're breaking that up, what's the next the right step to be communicating this?

Because I don't want to start talking to parks, and then all of a sudden Rhett's like, hey, what in the crap's going on?

And I I Fred, I think I think the best way to do it would be to bring it up in a study session.

Go over what they do and then have the discussion here to find the problem.

I think everybody's I don't want to start, I don't want to start discussing with the parks and trails committee until we get something rolling because you start talking to them, then they're gonna talk to city staff.

Okay.

And then you two should make a proposal to the rest of us.

Thank you.

That's why I want clarification because I get CS start movement and then we're gonna create sense chaos if we don't do it organize.

So you guys meet with Mike and make some sort of a proposal on how you want to split it.

Perfect.

So that's for those two committees.

Is there would that discussion include figuring out what we're doing with Draper Arts and historically a different session?

I'll sit down with Rhett and get a grasp of what it is currently.

Because yeah, that that concerns me that they're getting zap funds, but how are they receiving like what sort of entity that's one of their main people?

And she said we work with RET and we are uh that funding goes to the city, I believe.

Oh we work with Rhett, and we have been a 501c3 in the past when we were under the Dray Bird Community Foundation.

Which was the 501c3.

Yeah, but so now they're longer.

They're probably getting grants through us.

Yeah, so we need to formalize that relationship.

We should make a reversal.

And Catherine has volunteered to be the LEA.

There you go.

You can better if I get a better part.

You had a good part on the laptop.

The other quick question I have is I've been asked by several people about short-term short-term rentals, not ADUs, short-term rentals.

We don't really have a way to enforce those.

So we we're working on a we're we're we are working on a uh ordinance to bring to you.

And when it's on our 217 studies that show up.

I mean, we may have to bump Jen.

Jen has been sick.

Like I don't want to say what she's got, but she's she's been down for a few days, and so I think she'll be gone this whole week.

So but if not next meeting, then first meeting in March.

Are we looking at something an ordinance to regulate them or to remove them, not allow them?

Or well, that'll be your decision.

We're we're going to pr offer maybe some best practices if you want to allow it but control it.

Okay.

But but if you if if the council's decision is we don't want them at all, then that's an option too, absolutely.

Because there are some cities that ban them.

Yeah, they're I think they're pretty rare.

I think most cities are trying to regulate them.

I think we need to regulate them and make them get business left.

Correct.

Yeah, I mean that that would be to do.

That's probably where um we have talked about it a lot when we were dealing with the ADUs.

Right.

We were like, we don't want ADUs to just turn into short-term rentals.

So I think there is like crossover there.

Right.

So we need to make sure that and but we never really came to a conclusion on that.

We had to work going on with ADUs that we were kind of all in with that one.

Yeah, that's and Jen's staff has been working on you know the modern income housing plans, the stationary plans, doing all the things that the legislature is telling us to do.

Now it's time for us to spend a little less time.

Yeah, well, yeah.

And I do appreciate that they've actually been doing enforcements on the ADUs.

I will do appreciate that.

I think part of the problem is we only have one own enforcement versus.

I need to explore, I need to explore that better because we we do have a lot of you know every time we pass an ordinance and say you the implication is we're going to then enforce it and we we just don't have the man or w woman power to do it than that, right?

But would that just bring us up to where we need to be and then if we pass another ADU or short-term rental thing, we might even need more time.

But at least it's a place to start.

Yeah.

Thank you.

That's all I got.

Anybody else have you?

We gotta go for 15 more minutes, think it's a full four hours.

No, I think we're good.

Really really quick question.

We just need to tell the farmers market people what to do.

They're waiting for an answer.

Do we are we okay with the west side of the park on Tuesday nights, or should we keep them at Smithfield's?

So this is kind of where they they want to be.

Um this is the library, this is ballpark four.

Yeah, yeah.

So they wouldn't start till after Draper Days.

This would be their little booths and they want people to park here, so they would get the park the traffic from here.

They're just kind of waiting to put it on their website.

I'm kidding.

Tuesday night.

So this is the library day barn, yeah.

This is ballpark four.

And the ballpark is not being used at this time.

Yeah, not in August, not after Draper Days.

So Rhett's okay with it.

So it is the farmers market really just gonna be end of July, August, September.

They don't want to go through October anymore, so it'd be and like yeah.

August, September, August.

Just August Second.

Yeah, I mean they could start maybe the last week of the state.

Could we do Smithfields in June and July and August September?

Smithfields we started in July 2nd.

Well I think we're probably it was a little longer season.

It's part of what it's yeah.

So remember when it was at the arena, we started in June and there's no produce.

Yeah.

But then we pushed it to July.

I think it was a little better.

But um but because of paper days in like September, they couldn't do the I mean you can think about it if you want.

I just don't love Tuesday nights.

I don't either.

And we and there's a couple vendors.

We could try another vendor.

I mean, I would love a Saturday morning.

I think you get so many more people.

And then you don't have a work traffic.

Because I mean it's probably okay in July and August, but once kids go back to school in September, I mean sports are gonna start up again.

I I don't know if they're right.

They said we'll never get produce on Saturday morning because of Wheeler and Salt Lake and South Jordan all do Saturday morning markets.

So they said all the produce is gone, but we can ask around.

What do you want to film then?

Harwood Farms always seems to have produced up on the corner on Saturdays.

So they do so does that through it, but uh did you get an answer?

No, no, I don't think so.

Um I if anything I'd rather do Monday night rather than Tuesday night.

But if you look at their website, it's like Mondays Linden, yeah, they're only giving us what they call left.

They're giving us left.

Yeah.

But it's not around somebody else who can do a Saturday morning.

Okay, okay.

I just like you're gonna tuck it away in those baseball fields.

No one's gonna see it, so you're not gonna get any of that drive-by traffic.

Yeah.

I I would think smaller.

Uh I think there is with any change, there's gonna be like a a bit of a learning needle parking.

I thought they wanted to have a great apart because people would see their tents and it wouldn't even actually bring people in, but they're so far tucked away.

I just don't I think they did.

I mean that was our first choice for sure.

It was the long 13th, but uh, but we'd nix that idea, right?

So hard made traffic.

Well, if you put them on top of the hill, you could maybe see them.

Yeah, the will and she and is that where you have them in this picture?

Um rules right over there.

So they could put them a little higher on the hill, probably.

But it would be hard.

I don't know that that's yeah, and we can move on a hill.

Yeah.

We can we can look around.

I'll see if David likes working with this vendor a lot more than the one we had at the arena.

But there might be some others out there.

I mean, I'd rather have something than that.

So if they are the choice in Tuesday night in the baseball field is what it is.

Or Smithfields.

They said they will go back if we want to just try it again and put better signs up.

I would think I thought every time I went, it was fairly so full.

I saw it.

They said they said their vendors like don't want to come again because they didn't do very well.

So they went too long.

I did think too many Saturdays.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Once it's under October, like no one's only and they did say that they would stop October 1st now.

Yeah.

But if they only did three months there, like July, August, September at that location, then maybe people come because it's we tell them that do another year there and try it.

It's easier.

Well we say we'll try.

Yeah, and if it's really bad, then we'll start getting all signage or something.

Let's start researching the Saturday.

Even for next year if we have to.

Put signage on banger.

There's so much traffic on Banger and it's so close.

Yeah.

Okay.

We'll keep with Smith builds and just try to help him out a little more of a signage and try to advertise it more.

I think we do with Linda, right?

But we can't 17 acres.

I don't care.

They really want to be the baseball video.

Um more second.

Just we're we're getting ready to advertise the rodeo.

We're gonna if you guys are okay with it.

Um Wilkes kind of did some research and he said the other rodeos don't give a child discount.

So he wants to make all the tickets fifteen dollars.

Which is still pretty low comparatively to other rodeo prices.

And then he's looking at maybe making the first three rows a premium price, like twenty bucks if you get a seat on the first three rows.

Just to help make some money.

And we do have the green hat clown who is better than the last year's triple phone.

It's so hat every night.

So I think raising the prices.

Wait, the green hat cloud.

Do you remember he was like a few years ago?

I thought he was funnier than the family oriented clown.

This is just not like the bad sense.

The green hat roll cardboard.

For the rodeo.

Oh, rodeo.

Rodeo phone.

Oh, yeah, not that other guy, yeah.

Okay.

So those premiums would be the only ones that were kind of assigned.

So well, no, I think they're all designed for the road.

Yeah, they're all assigned.

Yeah, right.

There was a was that the rodeo or the only bowls, bowls only.

Or the trucks.

That might have been monster trucks, which isn't hurts.

It was a yeah, it was a problem where it's more for crowd.

That's a brawling crowd.

People are sitting in someone's seats and got pretty bad.

Okay, without maybe making somebody.

He said we'll make an extra like seven grand if we if we do that.

Wow.

Wow, well, that's okay to make twenty dollar seats.

He said twenty-one, but I think twenty dollars.

Um on the first three rows, and then every ticket's fifteen bucks.

Twenty one's fine.

Twenty-one, okay.

That was John.

I like lots of that.

But he likes 21 things.

So we have the groove merchants Friday.

We have an Alabama cover band called Roll On that is the same price as a cover band.

Um they're they come out of Washington, but they're not I mean, so it's you're gonna see a a significant savings in cost.

I think the music will be good.

We listen to them, they're they play all of Alabama's they look like 'em.

I mean, they're kind of interesting group.

And and between the drone show savings, that will save like 15 grand and then we'll save another 15 grand on bands or 20.

So yeah, we're probably up to almost 40, 50 grand.

Then we can raise the stage so it's not underwater when we have a water range.

Yes.

Yes, indeed.

If it's lightning, we still have to stop.

Right.

We still have to do that.

Yes, we do.

Yeah, I'm gonna do that.

Okay.

And then are we switching the decided to switch?

Yeah, so he he he's already got the the food application went out yesterday.

He's already got like 40 food vendors applied.

They all are thrilled with the new layout.

So there's a there's three different sizes, ten by ten, ten by twenty, ten by thirty, and it's either a thousand, twelve hundred, or thirteen hundred, and the they'll go like that.

The food vendors still.

And they they kind of know where they're gonna be then.

Yeah.

So they're all gonna be like like around this.

Um so if this is let's see, where am I?

So the stage is right here.

So the food vendors are all gonna be right on here.

Well, that'll be great.

Cool.

How and then the food ten right there.

Like how many do we usually have twenty-four, and we're gonna keep that same amount because he he told them he doesn't want to like flood it, even though we could fit more.

Yeah, they're kind of they're paying a premium, so he wants them to do well.

Which is I think that's fair.

It's keeping the same amount that he had twenty-four.

We got the high school bands and then the draper it is coming.

Yeah.

So we'll have the local stuff as well.

Run the high quality stage and sound gear.

So it'll be I think it'll be good.

I'll make them good production, but we're actually having money.

And the car show applications are open, they're filling up.

Um that's gonna be on Thursday nights.

Yeah, on the big part of the big part of the car.

So it'll be a lot better access for them to get in.

Because it's it was hard for them to get in last year.

They were kind of grumpy because our old cars were dying in the parking lot waiting to get in.

The cars are dying, not in driving.

Yes.

It was a busy night for you.

Anyone else have anything else?

Thank you for doing this.

I appreciate it.

It was very interesting.

I think we covered some of the big topics that we can get a plan going forward.

Um hopefully our sales tax will start going up again, and we will be able to buy draper.

Hey, that budget was actually looked more positive than I'd expect.

So it's a better one than I saw a couple weeks ago, so thank you, John, because I was in full panic mode a couple weeks ago.

But um, yeah, and Kelly is the board member of the year tomorrow.

Yeah, they had Slimpick and that chamber thing is tomorrow.

Everyone can go through the table of eight, so so we're having our special enforcement team meeting, all of us mayors tomorrow with our with the chiefs going over you know where we're at with all the enforcement we're doing, and we'll probably talk about how we interact with dice and all that stuff.

We the way we've been doing is where we want to keep doing it, which is we do our work and they do their work and we do the work we do.

Are you letting Rovers in lock in?

Um I'm uh that's to be determined.

Yeah, and so it all depends on Tish.

Yeah, well, all depends on the coalition and what everybody wants to do.

So we the the team has been working really well.

Um law enforcement-wise, it's um it's gotten recognition as you know, they're they're catching bad guys like crazy, and they're really do a good job of they've taken fentanyl off the streets.

Oh, that panel number that you shared at the same time.

Large quantities, shocking, it was like 250,000 things or something.

There was a there was a group of bank robbers, just to give you an example, that were going around the mountain west and they would glue a an ATM card in the machine, and then they the bank would come out and have this card glued in the holder, they'd have to call the technician.

Technician would come out, crack open the machine, these dudes would jump out of the car, take the bank, the technician down, beat them up, hurt them, and then take all the cash.

Interestingly enough, there's about 300,000 in cash in an ATM machine, so it's a much better haul than holding up the bank, like you wouldn't get 10 grand.

That's pretty smart.

These guys were they were knocking banks over these ATMs over, and they did one at Wells Fargo in Draper, and the and everybody was alerted to it because the special enforcement team was up and they say we got the cards, so they waited, and when they came out to get the tech, our special enforcement team got them, at least two of them tackled them out on 123rd between McDonald's and Wells Fargo.

And then one of them got away, went into some neighborhood and was like stalking someone, and they got him too.

Um, and they broke this ring up.

Um that's what I do when I'm playing the police's stocks and drawing the tank.

They're all working well together.

We have the joint SWAT team with all the freedom.

So West Jordan, South Jordan, I mean Sandy Draper, Riverton, Harriman, and South Jordan joint SWAT team, special enforcement team is Sandy Draper, Harriman, and South Jordan.

Ribton's not in the special enforcement team at this moment in time.

They're interested in coming back.

We'll see how it goes.

But it's it's good law enforcement in that are doing a good job.

So all right.

Well, motion to adjourn.

All in favor say aye.

Aye.

Are there any opposed?

We are adjourned.

Are we still recording?

Yes.

Hold on.

Okay.

So I want to clarify we are gonna start focusing.