Good evening.

Welcome to our planning commission meeting here at Draper City.

We welcome you guys.

Today's date is April 23rd, 2026.

I'm Andrew Adams and welcome all the uh other commissioners up here on the stand that are taking time out of their night.

We also want to thank the staff for getting everything ready on our reports throughout the week, putting up postings and meeting with the applicants.

Uh and also we want to greet everyone here that's visiting or just attending, or also an applicant.

So uh we welcome you all.

So let's go ahead and get things started.

Our agenda is posted online and also in the back.

Uh the paper handouts.

Jennifer, are there any changes to the agenda tonight that we know of?

No.

Okay, so we'll move forward as posted.

So let's go ahead and kick things off with our first action items.

Two of those are to approve the planning commission meeting minutes.

One of those is for February 12th, 2026.

The other is for February 26, 2026.

Who will give us a motion to uh approve those minutes unless there's anything that needs to be discussed regarding those?

I'm happy to make that motion.

Go ahead, Mary.

I move we approve the planning commission meeting minutes for February 12th, 2026 and February 26, 2026.

Great.

Thanks, Mary.

Who'll second that motion?

I'll second.

Thanks, Susan.

Let's put it to a vote.

So Mary, how do you vote?

Yes.

Susan?

Yes.

Kendra?

Yes.

Laura?

Yes.

And Gary.

Yeah.

All right.

All right.

Yes.

Yes.

Pew.

The nail biter right there.

So all right.

Well, those are approved, then they will be approved.

Thank you.

All right.

Let's go ahead and move on to our uh next action item.

This is the Canyon Crest Medical Condo.

It's the second amendment plat amendment extension request.

It's on the request of Cameron Duncan, representing Canyon Crest South LLC.

Canyon Crest 1180 LLC and SHW Associates Enterprise LLC and Canyon Crest Medical Condominium Homeowners Association.

A six months extension of the Platte Amendment approval for Canyon Crest Medical Condo Second Amendment located at 11762 South State Street.

The application is for 2025 0021-SUB, and our staff contact Mary Ann Pickering.

So go ahead, Mary Ann.

Thank you.

This is a vicinity map showing the location of the property here in the blue.

This is Lone Peak Hospital for reference, State Street and I 15.

A detailed view of the property.

The land use category is here.

And then the zoning is CC.

And this was one that you actually reviewed a year ago tomorrow.

So it does expire tomorrow.

It has not been recorded yet.

What they're asking for is the six-month extension.

This is the existing plat as it is today.

And they're rec reconfiguring the office spaces, creating some more units, and reconfiguring some common space.

They've run into some delays with their purchase agreements and getting some signatures.

So they need that extra six months to get it recorded.

Great.

Thanks, Mary Ann.

Any questions for staff on that?

This is uh it's not a public hearing, so any debate or deliberation on that before we put a motion together on whether we extend that or not.

All right.

Well, it looks like then pretty straightforward.

Uh anyone want to put a motion forward to approve or not.

Do we need to have the applicant come up?

Is the applicant here?

Oh, yeah, we don't want to rob you of that.

Then come on down.

If you're gonna take the time out, so apologize.

So that's right.

Well, I have a 15-minute uh information put together.

So no, just thank you to someone.

Will you state your name too as well?

Oh, yeah, Cameron Duncan with Enzyme Engineering.

Thank you.

My address or just name.

No, we're good.

Okay, good.

Thank you to the staff for getting us on.

We kind of these guys aren't developers, so that kind of slipped through the cracks and got to the end here.

So just yeah, just asking for an extension.

Perfect.

Pretty straightforward.

Any questions for the for the applicant?

Okay, see?

I knew it would be easy for you.

Thanks.

All right.

What say you, commissioners?

I'll make a motion.

Go ahead.

Okay.

I move that we approve the amended subdivision plat application number 2025-0021-sUB based on the findings and criteria for approval as listed in the staff report dated April 15th, 2025.

Thank you, Susan.

Who'll second that motion for approval?

I'll second that.

Thank you, Kendra.

Let's put it to a vote.

Susan, how do you vote?

Yes.

Kendra?

Yes.

Laura?

Yes.

Gary?

Yes.

And Mary.

Yes.

All right.

Congrats on that.

Thanks for coming down.

All right.

We'll kick off tonight then with our first public hearing.

This is the Bassett Furniture Site Plan and Deviation Request.

It's on the request of Brandon Wingsguard of Dustin Builders representing the property owner, IKEA Property Inc., a site plan and deviation request for the construction of a new retail building on approximately 1.24 acres located at approximately 51 West, Ikea Way.

It's known as application 2025-0208-sp and 2025-0207-BAR.

Staff contact again is Mary Ann Pickering.

So go ahead, Mary Ann.

Thank you.

This is a vicinity map showing the property.

It's here in red, and for reference, this is IKEA.

This is RC Willie.

This is a detailed view of the property.

It is one of the two remaining building pads that was part of the initial IKEA development that was envisioned.

The land use is commercial special district.

And then the zoning is the commercial special district DRC, which is the Dolly Retail Center.

This is a new furniture retail building that's approximately 16,000 square feet in side size.

It will be one story, about 25 feet tall.

Again, the zoning is the CSD DRC, and the request does comply with all the standards of the CSD, with the exception of parking, and they have asked for a parking deviation for this project.

This is the site plan that shows the building.

This is IKEA Way.

This is the entryway that comes in.

And if you've been out there lately, these are where they have the flags on the corner that say IKEA.

So the building will be located closer to IKEA Way.

And then this is the main IKEA parking lot down here at the bottom.

They have proposed a landscape plan, which again complies with all the standards of the CSD.

These are the building elevations.

It does have different materials because of the CSD.

It does have a combination of ethos with some stucco, but that is all permitted in that area.

The lighting plan also is a little different, the standards in the CSD, but they have met those standards and all of the height for the light poles that are well below what they could do.

With the parking deviation, there's a minimum of 80 stalls required by the CSD, and they're proposing to do 40 stalls on the site.

This retail store, it's actually a showroom only from what the applicants told me.

Um there's a very small storage area, but typically you go in here, order your furniture, and then it is shipped to you.

You don't get deliveries from the store.

So again, there's very little stock that's there.

There is a large amount of parking in this area, specifically on the IKEA property, and there have been deviations for parking considered for this area in the past, similar requests, and specifically that was Alice Lane had one, and I believe Lazy Boy had one also.

And there haven't been any parking issues out there with those two businesses and those deviations.

This is the site again for reference.

It'll be here where this parking lot is right now.

And I didn't um I did receive one public comment which you got as part of this, but that was all I heard.

No phone calls on this one.

I'm happy to answer any questions you have.

All right, thanks, Mary Ann.

Appreciate that.

All right, is the applicant here for this?

All right, you want to come on down, same drill, just state your name and add anything to that presentation that you'd like.

I'm Brandon Wainsburg.

I'm with Dutz and Builders.

Um, so I am the applicant on behalf of Bassett and IKEA.

Um, there's not much else to add.

Marianne's done a great job working with us.

Todd's been a great help.

Um we're just looking forward to breaking ground on this, hopefully.

Perfect.

Great.

We may have some questions for you.

Any questions for the applicant?

Okay.

It's public hearing, so after we get the public input, if we need to invite you back up, we will.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And then just for the record, I can see on his shirt, we've got the uh builders misspelled, so Dutson T S O N instead of the other way around, so no worries.

So I caught that before you did, Susan.

So I can think I get a trophy for the first time in about 10 years, right?

So thank you.

Good job.

All right, now back to our meeting.

Okay, this is a public hearing, so we'll go ahead and open this up to public comment.

Uh, who would like to address this agenda item?

If anyone okay, we don't see anyone, so we'll go ahead and close the public hearing.

All right, commissioners.

Uh, you heard it mentioned I don't get a vote, but you heard it mentioned this is this sounds like it's identical to the uh like the lazy boy experience that you have over there, it's just a showroom, right?

Uh never really a parking issue, so the parking deviation we have in front of us, and then the site plan is what's on the docket.

So, what are your thoughts on that?

I was glad to see the parking study.

That was helpful for me, especially when it comes to retail type uses.

Yeah, so and and having lived here and and experienced that IKEA parking lot that's always empty out that direction, always, right?

So this is never been a never been an issue.

So I'm not worried about it.

But the study does help.

All right.

Well, if that's the case, then let's put some motions together.

I'll make a motion.

Go ahead, Gary.

Could I ask a question first?

Yes of Tracy.

Um the public comment we received today.

I what weight can we give that to our decision, or do we need to give it or none?

None.

Okay.

It's a civil matter between the property owners.

Okay.

So yeah, not something that you could consider.

Okay.

Thanks.

Great.

Thanks for pointing that out.

All right.

So where were we?

Gary, I will move on a motion.

Go ahead.

I move that we approve the parking deviation as requested by Brandon Wingsgard of Dudson Builders representing the property owner IKEA Property Inc.

application 2025-0207-VAR based on the findings for approval listed in the staff report dated April 19th and five findings for approval.

Great.

Thanks, Gary.

Who will second that motion?

I'll second.

Thanks, Mary.

Okay, let's put this one to a vote.

Uh Gary, how do you vote?

Yes.

Mary?

Yes.

Susan?

Yes.

Kendra?

Yes.

And Laura.

Yes.

All right.

So that's approved.

And now let's take a look at the site plan.

What do we say about that?

I'll make a motion.

Go ahead, Susan.

I move that we approve the site plan as requested by Brandon Wingsguard of Dustin Builders representing the property owner, IKEA property inc.

Application 2025-0208 SP based on the findings and approval.

And subject to the conditions listed in the staff report dated April 19th, 2026.

Thanks, Susan.

Who will second that?

I'll second that.

Thanks, Kendra.

Let's put that one to a vote for approval of the site plan.

Susan.

Yes.

Kendra.

Yes.

Laura?

Yes.

Gary?

Yes.

And Mary.

Yes.

All right.

Congrats on that.

And thanks for coming in.

We appreciate you doing business here in Draper.

All right, let's go ahead and hit our next public hearing.

This is the Jensen Farms phase four preliminary subdivision platinum park strip deviation requests.

It's on the request of Peter Gamrulis of Ivory Homes preliminary subdivision plat and park strip deviation requests for a new single family residential development on approximately 11.74 acres at approximately 11867 South 700 West.

This is known as applications 2025-0057-SUB and 2026-0043-VAR.

And Mary Ann Pickering again is our contact.

So go ahead, Mary Ann.

Thank you.

This is a vicinity map showing the property.

It's outlined here in red for reference.

This is 700 west over here, and then the heavy rail line.

A detailed view of the property.

This is the Jensen Farms development that's already been developed.

And then this is Big Willow to the north.

The land use on this one is residential, medium density, and the zoning is R4.

This is a proposed 28-lot single family residential subdivision.

It is part of the Jensen Farms development for those of you who've been on planning commission back from 2017.

We did do the DA back then, and then the preliminary and final plots.

But this phase, this is phase four.

This was actually sold to Canyon School District because they anticipated they were going to be building a school on this site.

There's no deviation from it except the park strip we'll get to.

And this will connect to the rest of the Jensen Farms subdivision to the north, and then the big willow to the north.

Sorry, and Jensen is to the west.

This is the plat.

Again, it does conform to the phasing plan that we had originally.

This is the area that is now the city park that was dedicated to the city as part of that development agreement.

The applic applicant has request requested park strip deviations.

And there are two areas where this will be proposed.

There's going to be a reduction from 10 feet to five feet along two of the cul-de-sacks within the subdivision that abut the city park.

The deviation would also allow the retaining wall to be built in the park strip rather than on the um in the park land.

And that was requested specifically by the parks department, so they don't have to maintain it as part of the park parks budget.

Engineering does agree with this design.

Again, the park goes right next to it as you can see, and it's basically taking um reducing that from 10 to 5 feet and then doing stamped concrete to allow for those retaining walls to be incorporated.

And I did not receive any questions or calls on this one as part of the public hearing notice, and I'd be happy to answer any questions you have.

Thanks, Mary Ann.

So just to clarify, um this land was included in the land that the development agreement applied to, however, it wasn't anticipated to be utilized for housing at the time.

Is that correct?

No, it wasn't anticipated to be housing.

And then the I think it was still Randy Bowler when he was working with the Jensens, they sold all of phase four to the school district.

And then the school district decided they don't want to put a school there.

Not they sold it, and I don't believe Goff Homes was interested, so that's why I redecided to purchase it.

Okay, I understand.

Thank you.

I didn't got a question on the stamp concrete.

Is that only for the section for which they're requesting the deviation?

Or are all the sidewalks?

No, just the part where they're requesting the deviation.

Is that because of the retaining wall?

Or otherwise, why would they just have a regular concrete sidewalk?

Just no concrete sidewalk will be there.

The stamp concrete is to replace landscaping in the park strip.

And it's to reduce the maintenance responsibilities of city crews, because that would be city maintained park strip, and we just don't have the staff to do that much park strip in these areas.

Okay, thanks.

All right, thank you.

All right, is the applicant here?

Come on down.

Hi.

Welcome.

Just that you know the drill, state your name and add anything to that you'd like.

Yeah, Peter Gambrulis with Ivory Development.

Um, I really don't have much to add, Mary Anna did a great job.

Um I thought I'd be a little later as I was the fifth item, so I showed up a little late, and I think my engineer would be booking through here tonight.

I like it.

You're totally fine.

You're totally fine.

Just in time.

So my engineer may be coming in.

Um, but I have nothing to add.

So if you have any questions of me directly, I'm happy to answer it.

And if my engineer happens to come in, uh he'll also be available.

Perfect, good.

And it's public hearing too, so we'll invite you back up as well if you need to.

So thank you.

Thank you.

All right, so this is a public hearing.

We'll go ahead and open this up.

Is there anyone that would like to address this agenda item?

If so, I'll give you the rules for how to engage with this.

There's a little timer up there of red timer for three minutes.

You're welcome to take up to three minutes.

You don't have to fill the whole time.

We just ask you to go over.

And if you just come up, just state your name.

So with that, come on down.

Name's Mark Robert Sexy.

I'm directly north of this area.

So right now I got a 12-acre fire hazard that I'm glad's getting developed.

Took a while to get it cut down last year, like multiple calls.

But my concern about now is the park it went in, beautiful job controlling the dust, dirt, noise.

It's still working phase one, two, and three.

The other side of the creek.

And now I'm directly north of this.

And if you notice the south winds lately, it's it's crazy.

I'm gonna right now I'm blowing dirt just from a basement next door.

So I just have some concerns on if you guys can address this or where I need to go to make sure everybody can control this correctly, and we don't have that kind of a mess.

Starting with the fire hazard now and going through the dust when they start putting the infrastructure in the houses in.

So I bought a school and a park, and now I've got a 12-acre home development going in, so you can see where my concerns are.

So okay.

All right, thank you.

Anyone else?

Come on down.

Hi, I'm Scott Jensen.

I live there on Windmillgate Cove, which would be in the uh Jensen Farm Development just west of where this is going in.

And we've spoken to a number of our neighbors, and we kind of have the same question.

And I think it comes down to just terminology, but as far as the shrinkage of the park strip, what does that exactly mean?

Is the park itself shrinking, or is it like the sidewalk, or um could we get some clarification on that?

Great.

So this is just send only, so we're just taking notes on this, so just tell us to speak your piece and then we'll address these later.

So sorry.

So I think it's just terminology.

Perfect thank you.

And thank you for the park.

It's awesome.

You got it we'll pass that on anyone else come on down.

Hi I'm uh Rick Taylor 1143 South 700 West resident there also representing West Crescent irrigation company and uh uh those of you who know me I've kind of fought the development in the area I'd I'd I'd much rather have seen agriculture and horse property through the whole thing but uh that ship has flown or sailed but uh ironically I'm here to tell you that I approve of what's going on on this one uh we've worked with uh Bob Bellers and Peter Graham Brulus uh and we have what's happened in in years past is everything uh upstream of of our creek that we irrigate from uh it gets water from tributaries of all these subdivisions where they they take what used to be farmers fields and they turn it into subdivisions and and there's no regard for where that water even though it was a little trickle uh went to and if you get enough of those trickles it makes a big difference and we've been cut you know tremendously on that it's a it's a struggle every year to get enough water to pump for our irrigation company now years ago uh before Jensen's even sold the farm we purchased East Jordan water and we've we've had a delivery system through their old siphon line anybody from here familiar with that anyway it's very expensive system has a three foot pipe going underneath I-15 um and uh we it's it was our intent to keep that active um in early development you know probably eight or ten years ago uh that the the line was cut it goes across the creek and I think when they did June grass drive uh they they cut and capped the line that used to deliver to the creek um we're it's been our interest and my personal mission in the past six years representing the company to try and reactivate some of those water sources that we had and uh we we're still looking right now you know today for uh an immediate relief but uh Peter and and Bob have helped us with uh uh putting the line back in place they they have to reroute it and get it out of the um residents backyards that they'll create but uh there is an easement there created and uh and just so the uh planning commission knows it's it's written up on the plan as a uh 15 or I believe 18 inch uh C900 um water line and uh we have currently pipe underneath June grass and the trail down by the creek that's only 12 inch so uh we've we've let ivory know that uh that could pipe could be reduced to 12 it should cost a considerable amount less and still do the delivery system we need so I'm just here to say thank you awesome thank you appreciate that all right anybody else hi my name is Stacey Jensen and I am on Windmill Gate Cove as well and my only comment is that with this new development and with the park finishing um out of my home I have a really nice view of the bridge and the main street with there's like two entrances that come into the main um neighborhoods there's a lot of speeding going on and so with the park finishing and more homes um I would like to see more like I don't know speed bumps or signs or something to protect our children um the neighborhood roads so that's it great thank you all right anyone else okay all right I don't think I see anyone else popping up so we'll go ahead and close the public hearing portion of this meeting or of this agenda item excuse me so uh Peter why don't we have you come back up and we can adjust address some of those items I know that's a little awkward sometimes we just say air and blink at you and we don't uh respond with any answers to your questions so here's the here's some responses.

That's that's what I have.

Um and then of course safety and Brian, we can maybe talk to that.

But for the applicant, those are the that's what I have.

So yeah, sure.

But anything else you want to add, please do.

No, thank you.

Yeah, so uh I think it was Mark's comments regarding dust issues.

Um so phase five, as far as development uh was completed in fall of 2025, late fall of 2025.

We didn't expect to pave that, but uh given the winter we had, we were able to pave it in time.

Um dust issues are always going to be an issue.

Um any time we're uh developing.

Uh I can't promise that there won't be dust.

Um, but our contractors should be treating that with a water truck, and um we do have fugitive dust control plans that our uh contractors work under.

So if anything gets out of line, please reach out to Ivory the City if if necessary.

Um but we do expect dust will will always be a part of development.

Uh Scott Jensen had the question on the park strip.

Um I guess that's a uh often used term for us, but it can be confusing.

So the uh I don't know that we can blow these up more, but simply when we're ref referencing a park strip, we're referencing the area between the sidewalk and the curb or the road uh that's typically landscaped with uh street trees and sometimes sod or other plants.

So when we're referencing shrinking the park strip, uh we're it's nothing to do with the city park, it's uh reference to the uh cross section of the road where you would see road gutter park strip sidewalk.

That park strip um the landscape area in between uh would be shrunk, and then in this case, because it's uh not um next to a single family lot uh will be stamped concrete because it will be the city's uh um responsibility, and that's per city code.

Um and then Rick Taylor, thank you for your comments.

Uh we had the opportunity to work with Rick and Bob of West Crescent Engineering.

Um, and so yeah, thank you for being supportive and uh we look forward to getting that pipe infrastructure in for you.

Um then I think I have one note from oh and Stacey's note was regarding speeding, and I don't know that uh that would be appropriate for me to know we'll we'll let engineering address that.

So what is the process like with dust uh mitigation?

Because it is a nuisance in and if not just from you, from anybody where the wind blows, right?

And you're you've got vacant uh you know scraped land.

What what is what is typically the process with that?

I mean, are they calling the city?

Are they calling because I know you guys are trying to get your your you know developers, whether you know whoever that's been in the past, if it's the same guys in the future, but is that something they're supposed to be doing is just watering that down and keeping dust down?

That that's typically the only mitigation method that you have.

So if you got a call on that, you would just then rattle the chain of the subs and say, hey, you've got a or the developer that that's that's building.

There'll be fugitive dust control plans that our contractors will be working under, and they'll have water trucks.

Yeah.

Yeah, and Andrew, if I can add to that.

Uh if there are dust problems, the public can call the city.

Um when they're installing the infrastructure in the roads, our engineering inspectors are out there inspecting.

Um, when homes are being built, the building inspectors are out there inspecting, and if we get calls about dust, those inspectors can go out and talk to the contractors about their mitigation measures.

Okay, great.

Just I only bring that up not to solve the problem, right?

We can't solve it, but we can mitigate it.

So that's that's so the public can kind of hear what the what their options are.

So great.

I think that's good.

Anything else you want to add?

Nothing to do with that.

Okay, we'll go ahead and we'll uh cut you loose and then Brian on safety.

What is uh aside from the little yellow signs that a uh resident can put out that says speeding, I don't know, no or put kids at play, no speeding, please.

What else can be done on a serious note about that?

So the city does have what we call a traffic committee that does evaluate streets as conditions change or as new growth happens.

So in this area, we'll be watching this as it is begins to be used more and more, and we'll evaluate it in the future.

I anticipate we'll probably end up doing some speed studies on rolling hills and some of these other access roads towards where the park is.

And if there's a speeding problem that's identified there, we'll increase enforcement.

And then if there's still additional issues, then we can do some in-depth studies and and see if we can find an engineering solution to those speeding problems or safety issues.

It doesn't necessarily always be speeding, it could be running stop signs, it could be you know a variety of different things.

But the city is aware, so we will be watching this area as the parks completed and the the development finishes out.

Okay.

Well, thanks for addressing that.

Okay.

All right.

Well, that uh that's what we've got there, commissioners.

What are your thoughts?

We've got a couple things in front of us here.

We've got the park strip deviation, and then I think the uh preliminary sub plat that we've got to look at and get approved or not.

So what are your thoughts first on the parking strip deviation?

I'm happy to make a motion on the park strip deviation.

I think this is the only park strip deviation I've ever like really liked.

So or felt like it was beneficial as well.

Well, you know, I'm no fan of rip your strip or whatever it's called, you know, because of California.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, but I think stamp concrete is pretty safe.

Yeah, so it's a pretty good weed barrier.

Yeah.

In my experience.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's great on water too.

So talk about the ultimate rip your strip.

There you go.

Flip your strip.

I don't know what it is, but we'll it's something like that.

It ends in strip.

Go ahead, Mary.

Sorry.

I move that we approve the park strip deviation as requested by Peter.

Uh-oh.

Kim Forallis.

Kimberless.

Av Ivory Homes application 2026-0043-VAR based on the findings for approval listed in the staff report dated April 14th, 2026.

And the finding for approval being the modification of the park strip is adequate and appropriate based on the proposed design.

Thanks, Mary.

Who will second that?

I'll second it.

All right, thanks, Laura.

Can I just go ahead and put this one to a vote real quickly?

Then we'll start with you, Mary.

Yes.

Laura?

Yes.

Gary?

Yes.

Susan.

Yes.

And Kendra.

Yes.

Okay.

Now let's move on to the preliminary plat subdivision.

I can make a motion.

Great.

I move that we approve the preliminary subdivision plat as requested by Peter Gambrulis of Ivory Homes application 2025-0057-VAR based on the findings for approval listed in the staff report dated April 14th, 2026.

And this includes the two findings listed there.

Great.

Thanks, Kendra.

Who will second her motion?

I'll second it.

Thanks, Gary.

Okay, let's put that one to a vote then.

Kendra.

Yes.

Gary.

Yes.

Laura.

Yes.

Susan?

Yes.

And Mary.

Yes.

All right.

Congrats on that.

So thanks for being a good neighbor, keeping that dust down.

So and thanks for coming in, of course.

So let's go ahead and move on to our final.

I think this is our last one here for the evening, correct?

It's our uh city initiated short-term rentals text amendment.

This one's on the request of Draper City.

Andrew, if you look at the bottom of that, it's been continued to date uncertain.

Oh, awesome.

So thanks for saving me from reading all the way through that.

So this item's being continued.

Thank you.

So that I also see that there's no there's no training either, right?

Just there is.

Oh, okay.

All right.

My bad.

There is a lot of things.

I tried to do that.

So there is a modification.

There is.

Well, there's two.

Yes, there's two.

There's two.

There's a on the agenda.

Oh, it says training.

Other business.

I missed that.

That was my I just skipped right over.

Well, you and me both.

I messed that we had a great.

Well, that's good.

Uh, do you want to take care of any coordination and business first before we do the uh training?

We can either one is there anything you want to share.

I do want to I do want to take a few minutes and update you on several development agreements and a text amendment that you guys have heard and have since gone to um council with a decision.

Um hold on one second, Jen.

Brian.

Yeah, we think now we're good.

Sorry, go ahead, start over again for um so I want to give you guys some updates on some text amendments and a text amendment and some development agreements that that you've heard and have gone to city council for approval um or you know, decision.

Um a couple of them, it's been uh been a good month.

I was gonna do it at your last meeting, but it was already like 10 o'clock and after 10 o'clock, and so we we uh skipped it.

So um, so the first one would be uh Fratto Farms.

So this is Troy Dana's application there on 8th East and 122nd South.

Um the plan the city council did approve it um with some changes.

Um so they limited it to 14 lots maximum.

Um they required the park that the concept plan showed.

Um the development agreement had to state that no AD use would be allowed, and then they limited the home size to 3,000 square feet of livable space.

Good.

So that that weird little uh flex lot went away, right?

That one that was gonna be a park, but we all knew it was gonna be a house.

So that's uh yeah, so it's perfect.

And then they're limited to the 14th.

Perfect.

And didn't they have them as uh ramblers or did you say that?

Um they l instead of uh limiting um number stories or height, they went with overall home size.

Oh 3,000 square feet is the maximum livable area.

Okay, thanks.

Um the next one is Kimball's Junction Development Agreement.

So this is Edge Homes project on Kimball's Lane and Seventh East.

Um so that got approved by the city council with um with changes.

Um so adding the language for the trail dedication to the body of the development agreement.

Um adding the language uh recommended by staff and planning commission on infrastructure, um, roadway infrastructure uh compliance with code, and then requiring that half call to stack on 119 South.

And that application for site plan is in for staff review now for uh site plan and preliminary plan.

So you'll probably see that in a few months.

So okay, the next ones.

Um Open Shaw development agreements.

This was Charlie Openshaw's uh property on the corner of 138th and Bangor Parkway.

So that got approved with uh recommended changes to add some uh language that staff recommended on cross access and temporary access.

Um a modification to the landscaping section, um, that the parking lot uh that parking lot landscape islands at the end of the rows are required, but they don't count towards the 10% overall landscaping, so that's in addition to the 10% overall.

Um, and that the mayor won't sign the development agreement until cross-access agreement has been signed and executed.

Um Bangder Crossroads development agreement.

Um this is the larger larger piece.

Um so it was approved with changes.

Um so staff provided um a few uh wording changes in the presentation that council said you've you've got to include those.

Um pork chop on the 30s access is required.

Um plus they have to look at uh different ways to mitigate trucks truck access to 30s besides just the pork chop and the sign.

Um requirement that the sidewalk continue from third east into the site on the north side.

Um if a hawk signal is warranted on uh third east that the developer and the city share the cost equally to install that.

Um that the fuel canopy be painted a dark color and the canopy lighting be limited to 51 foot candles, um, the dark colors to help reduce uh light pollution and uh glare.

Um the eight-foot uh walls along all the buffer areas with residential.

Um see I'm losing my place here.

Uh the third east uh bourman fence has to equal eight and a half feet tall, so that's the berm and the six-foot fence along that whole length on third east.

Umscape offers next to the residential uh properties have to comply with code, so that's the width and um number of trees.

Um the cross access agreement be signed and executed prior to the mayor signing the development agreement.

Um deed gaps and overlaps of properties, adjacent properties need to be resolved uh with the site plan before site plan approval, and then uh that the that the landscape be in the landscape in the largest trees possible that have the best chance of longevity be installed on the property, and I think that was specifically talking about those buffer areas and third, and then Juan Diego, Texum and I got one more.

Um that did get approved um with the changes that planning commission uh asked for with that definition of ancillary ancillary uh added um and the changes that staff went over with you guys at your meeting.

Are there any questions on any of that?

I feel like that was a lot of information.

I have a question that you might not be able to answer.

Um there was an article about the Bangator Crossing project in the Draper journal that came out this week, and um the writer apparently interviewed Dwayne Rasmussen, I think, and he said they anticipated construction starting like fall of 2027 for the anchor tenant.

Do we know if OpenShaw has a similar timeline?

I mean, and if you don't know, yeah, I don't know OpenShaw's timeline.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

I anticipate this summer, we'll get the site plan application for Bangar.

Um, it is a larger project, it may take a while, and obviously the construction of the building will take some time.

Okay, thanks.

On a side note, the construction for the front edge improvements in that area has begun for the deficiencies of Bangetor Highway and 138th.

Oh, so that will happen first.

So you'll notice the contractors down there moving dirt now.

And so how soon?

I know that's imminent, right?

Like Yeah, that's that's started now.

So we anticipate that'll be done in the next couple of months.

So just to add a little bit more delay to your delay.

I think it will be a welcome change.

The traffic there during peak hours is pretty bad.

So I welcome any extra lanes and and traffic signals for the minute.

So that's that's begun.

Awesome.

Thanks.

Like that stretch of road going right in front of more hardness and getting towards the like extension of the interview to ID or to I-15.

Rush hour, it isn't a light any issue, like is it viewed off studying that needs to happen, or is it just like that's a busier?

I mean, there are times that we'd love to go downtown.

You can write an entire I-15 stretch.

Oh, yeah.

It's the weird, I can't figure out why it's so slower.

UDOT's priority is to keep traffic off of the main line of I-15.

So they manage the signal accordingly.

Sure.

And that pushes the traffic into Draper and into the Bangator Highway area sometimes as well.

But this improvement will add another lane to Bangater, correct?

A right turn only onto the freeway.

Am I remembering that?

So UDOT has committed to widen the area between 150 east and the northbound I-15 on ramp.

The area that people are using as a lane already.

I drove in it yesterday.

I I'm gonna get I'm gonna be the one to get a ticket.

I know the one of all the thousands, probably, but it's yeah, people are utilizing that as you don't know.

Are they good has to do that?

And we don't have a timeline on when they're gonna start.

But are they really gonna widen that and then or are they just gonna unpaint it?

Probably stripe it's there is a section of curb that's too narrow for an official lane.

So they can't restripe it until they actually do some improvements.

They do need to Darn.

Well, um, isn't is an additional lane going between 138th and 150 or only north of 150?

So the city is adding lanes from 150 to 138th.

Okay, okay.

It's just city versus doing everything we can in our section to accommodate some additional traffic, some better flowing movements, but we still need that one piece from UDOT.

Okay, thanks.

So in in at the end of it all, it should be one consistent uh extra lane.

What will be worse though is if Draper City makes the widening and then it goes back to Dr.

Chaplin.

Although it's three lanes now, really.

Yeah, but that won't be great.

Yeah, that's on the plan though, so okay.

Okay, good.

Well, thanks, Jennifer.

Uh, don't you like when she does that to kind of let us know what happened to our deals?

I do like that.

Thanks for doing that.

I think we would welcome that.

Keep doing thank you.

Is that count of the training?

It's uh I I learned a lot.

Didn't you?

Just kidding.

Well, I don't think we all learned a lot.

Tracy, isn't that called considered like time?

10 minutes just marking.

So market at least 10 minutes.

No, all right.

Well, with that, let's get on with the training, and then uh at after that we'll just adjourn.

So let's go ahead.

Time's yourself.

Well, as you can see, we intended this for you on April 9th, and I believe that that um just put a put us all in a world of pain.

So we have um continue that to tonight.

Let's just get started.

So we're gonna do a little quiz.

This is on open and public meetings.

Who said this?

This is a famous quote: absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Does anybody know?

Probably like uh Stalin.

Michael Scott.

No, Michael Scott, come on.

No, it's gonna be uh one of like uh it's gonna be one of the political science guys, yes.

Or the political.

It's a political side like some uh it's Lord Acton, and this is from 1887.

So this is a letter that he wrote, and at the time in England, there was a presumption that people who were in positions of power were sort of fallible and um sort of ordained by God to those positions, and so you start to see this public um critique starting to come out against those figures because they're noticing a lot of corruption, right?

And they're not liking it.

So that's where this comes this comes from is a letter that he's writing, and they're talking about the Pope and the king.

And um, in this letter, this is where he says um power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority, still more when you superadd the tendency or the certainty of corruption by authority.

Um there is no worse heresy than that the office sanctifies the holder of it.

So that's where you start to see some of the sentiment coming um against the idea of absolute power, right?

Okay, here's the next one.

Famous quote sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants.

Anybody know this one?

That's that's our president, Mr.

Clean.

Yeah, Mr.

Clean.

So close, you guys.

Okay, it's from US Supreme Court Justice Lewis Brandeis.

Um this was in uh this is a quote that he gave to Harper's Weekly back in 1913.

This is over a hundred years old.

This is where he said that sunshine is the best disinfectant.

So publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases.

Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants, electric light, the most efficient policeman.

So this is where you see the advent of sunshine laws.

It comes from that quote.

So sunshine laws are regulations that promote transparency that require the public access to government agency meetings and records.

So this is where you see the beginning of open meetings laws, right?

They are supposed to prevent fraud, corruption, and inequality.

They're supposed to hold government agencies accountable to the public.

So they are basically an issue like an insurance policy that citizens can observe and understand how government decisions are being made, and it helps foster that public trust, right?

And and then the participation too in the democratic process.

So that is where you see the open and public meetings law start.

Um the intent is that state agencies and political subdivisions are supposed to take their actions and conduct their deliberations openly.

And we don't have to get in too much of this detail.

Um if you're a log geek, it might be interesting to you.

But initially, just from a historical standpoint, even like um the Continental Congress and Constitutional Convention, those were held in secret.

So those are not open to the public.

Um, but then you start to see, like, like I said, this trend towards more open and public um governmental operations over time.

So in 1966 is when you first see the Freedom of Information Act that gets enacted by the federal government.

That's FOIA.

That's what our grandma laws are based off of, which is the Government Records and Management Act here in the state.

And by 1976, uh in the United States, all of the states have enacted an open meetings law.

So every state is gonna have an open meetings law.

It might have a different name, but you can kind of see that trend towards going towards more open um deliberations.

All right, so in our Utah code, this is under Title 52.

So that's what we'll be talking about.

And here's my next question for you.

So the legislative intent of of the uh opma is for public bodies to deliberate and act a civilly, be respectfully, see openly or de transparently.

Very close.

It's C.

So in our state law, it's openly.

So key word there openly.

It is the intent of the legislature that the state, its agencies, and its political subdivisions, which we are as a municipality, that we take our actions openly and we conduct our deliberations openly.

Is transparency more uh showing things like numbers, dollars, things that are more private, more less, less public.

So that there's not saying that just because it's a city doesn't mean that everything's public.

Right.

But everything is open.

It's mostly that you want to be doing these decisions out in the open, right?

So that it's not like this like back room deal where things are going on.

You want the public to feel like they're kind of seeing, you know, what's what's happening and how it's being deliberated by their elected officials.

So openly is it is the key word in the statute.

So that's why just keep that in mind.

Um that's the phrase that it uses is that you deliberate openly.

All right, so here's our true or false.

Because the statute does not technically require a public official to behave civilly or respectfully, plan commissioners can be rude and disrespectful to others during public meetings when representing the city.

So which city are we talking?

This would be false.

That would be true, isn't it?

We're gonna give this one to Andrew.

It is okay.

Okay, so we have bylaws that govern you as a body, right?

So as the planning commission, you have got the Draper City Planning Commission bylaws and rules of procedure.

So in our Article 4 of order and decorum in 4.2, that's where it sets out what the commissioner decorum is expected of you.

So A is that you're in attendance at each meeting and portray an appropriate appearance as representative of Draper City to conduct the meeting in a serious, respectful, and sincere manner.

B is that you should avoid leaving your seats except during approved recesses of a meeting or removing yourself for a conflict of interest.

So I actually didn't recall this, but um when we're actually in the middle of a you know public hearing, be sure to stay seated if you need to be excused.

Um we can talk about that in just a minute.

So the other part of C is avoid conversations that's not plainly audible to all present in the meeting.

Sometimes I think it's fine to just have like commentary, like you know, if something funny amongst yourselves.

I don't know that anyone's gonna really view that super skeptically, but I think you do need to be careful about having sort of sidebars, like where they can't hear you, because that perception is that what's going on, they're not supposed to be doing it that way.

It's supposed to be open and on the record.

So do you see anything in our meetings, Tracy, that needs to change on on any of these?

And if you do, will you point them out?

Sure.

Thank you.

Um yeah.

All right, and then also in our state code, we've got under 1036.

Um, it does set forth that they were there's supposed to be rules of order and procedure, and that they typically like um public bodies to follow a parliamentary order procedure, ethical behavior, and civil discourse.

So you've got the state law part, and then you've got our bylaws.

So there you go.

There's some kind of foundation for you.

All right, but this is what happens if you get super rowdy as planning commissioners.

So basically, all you need to remember is that behavior that is likely to s to disrupt public peace or offend public decency is kind of what constitutes um disorderly conduct.

So you could get into all the nitty-gritty of like what disorderly conduct is, but what you need to know is that if you see one of your fellow co like commissioners starting to get um disorderly in their conduct, you can expel them.

So as long as you have two-thirds of a vote, then you can get rid of Susan when she starts mouthing off.

Okay, don't say that to us.

No, I'm just kidding.

Susan's very well behaved.

I have an issue with this.

Does that have to happen?

We don't have thirds.

We have five.

You have five members.

So we need to change that to reflect for maybe three fifths, because three fifths is that four six.

I don't know.

It's been a while.

But your quorum is five.

Seven.

We can actually talk about this, but that is actually what I think the um what the with the state statute says.

So it's a super majority, right?

So I think that's what it really means.

Okay.

So if you're a quorum of five, then you're gonna need to have oh gosh, for a supermajority.

Okay, yeah, you're gonna need four.

You're gonna need four.

I was a little math, it's three math on the fly is not my so this would this would never apply in our city, but in theory, let's say if we're asking for a friend, if this to be expelled, that's permanent expulsion.

Oh, or is it from that meeting?

It's from that meeting.

Okay.

And then also, is it on the fly?

Yeah.

So in theory, if Gary were starting to get unruly, we could hurry and say two-thirds, two-thirds vote.

I call on Gary, and then immediately right then.

Right?

You would stop the meeting and say, I need to, I need to uh call a vote.

So probably the the most wait for police.

You have to lose the case.

I know you're asking way too many questions.

I'm just curious.

I'm just curious because how would you do it?

No, I find that training sometimes it's you know, you never know what's gonna pop up.

So yeah.

No, I think the best way to do it is to is for one of the commissioners to make a motion in that moment and say, I'd like to move that we expel Commissioner Ogden for disorderly conduct.

And then you would say this for this meeting.

Susan.

Again, this is just this is just for other cities hypothetical.

Hypothetically.

But you can do it in that moment.

You don't have to sit there and like tolerate a bureau.

It's not a it's not a uh it's not a hearing later that's uh the you know two two meetings later saying, hey, remember when that person got unruly, we're gonna expel them, but it's not okay.

So it's 10 it's for the meeting only, it's on the fly, and it'll never happen here.

So it'd be very unlikely.

Great.

But it's good to know that you've got that in your back pocket in case it ever happens.

So uh are you gonna get into what's gonna what I mean?

Oh yeah.

Oh, so it was before I was I was brand new.

Uh the other Andrew drew was the chair.

It was the I think it was the uh can I say?

Yeah, you can it was the it was the hang glider park, uh, and it was Geneva and the hang glider people.

Okay, yeah, yeah.

And we were all Nazis and no the Nazis was APA.

It was the high school at APA.

Maybe that was the second time we were Nazis.

Yeah, so maybe Jim, were you here for the the high hang glider guys?

I'm yeah, I I was here for the Geneva once, yeah.

You were here for that, okay.

I remember that.

Yeah, so that one, and I remember Drew said that there was well though.

It wasn't me, it wasn't me.

Well wasn't it?

No, that one was that was Drew's.

There was another one where they were clapping.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're right.

That's because I I had a good trainer, Drew showed me how to tandle the the the hang gliders.

He said he claims there's a button under here somewhere.

That there's a button.

He goes, I'll hit this button.

And then it's a fake button.

I don't think that's yeah, so I'll tell you after the yeah, but this is an open meeting.

But he he claimed there was a button that he was gonna press.

I don't know where that is, but there was a button that he was gonna call in, you know, people are getting unruly.

So if we think in advance that there's could potentially be an issue, and we've had applications where um the applicant has said certain things to staff or we're we're concerned about them being at the meeting, or we know there's gonna be an unruly people.

We can invite the police to join us, and we have had police officers here for meetings in the past.

Um it's kind of as as needed.

Okay.

Um, but we can also call for a police officer to come join us.

Okay.

Yeah, so again, that was but that's that this is more for just training for us, not for the public.

So got it.

Okay.

And so in I was just taking the bylaws because as a chairperson, you're required to maintain the order of the meeting.

I think you could shut somebody down if you felt like it was becoming disorderly.

Yeah.

Um, and you could ask them to leave.

I think you could even put the meeting on hold and and we could ask for police to come and escort them out.

So that's probably what I would suggest in that situation.

Yeah, that I I I mean, honestly, that's that's I I doubt that too, but that's more of a of a reality than somebody up here getting unruly.

But so that's why I want to address it now.

So those are those are those are our rights then on what we can do.

Okay.

And just so you know, I won't go into this because this is this is public and and I don't know that we want to do that.

But if you if we ever have a situation where you feel unsafe, or if we feel like if somebody were to draw a weapon, then um what I would want you to do, obviously, is get down.

I think what we've done, I don't know.

Have they done it yet already?

It's already done, it's bulletproof.

Okay, so I think this all this right here is bulletproof.

So anyway, I mean this is helpful to know.

Yeah, but I think the the way that they usually train you is to um to run, hide, and then fight.

Like that's kind of the order of priority.

So like if we were to have a situation here where we have a you know, uh a gun.

You would have to go get down, go out the back, follow me, I'll have my badge.

We'll go out that way, and I'll take you down to a safe room.

So just keep that in mind that that's kind of the protocol.

Your badges can also get you through both these doors.

Allegedly.

Mine doesn't have badges.

Oh, okay, good.

I'm locked out of the break room.

Oh, I didn't know we didn't used to have badges.

You guys have badges now?

Okay, Andrew's badge does not work.

So you want to go out that backdoor.

Okay.

And we'll get with Jake.

So we need to fix that.

We're gonna crawl out.

We have the idea.

Hey, you know, that's I'm glad we're talking about this because that actually happened at my previous life.

Really?

We actually had someone in the audience threaten us, the commissioners.

Oh, yeah.

It was intense, I'll tell you.

And we had commissioners duck down.

Uh and we had to call the police.

Uh-huh.

So it does happen, but not for the right.

Oh, I mean, I think that's great.

That's why we're talking about it.

You never know.

Yeah.

Never know.

Yep.

Alrighty.

Okay.

So we're going to want to keep this.

So we just talked about this.

How is a quorum defined in uh in OPMA?

A a simple majority of the membership.

B three or more members of the public body, C a minimum number of the public body needed to hold a valid meeting, or D, the number of people needed to conduct official business of the public body.

All right, I won't keep you in suspense for too long.

All right, so it's a it's a simple majority of the membership of the public body.

So under the statute, it right there.

That's the actual language of it there, but under our bylaws, which is 3.5, our planning commissioner is um we have a five commissioners, right?

And so three is a quorum under under our bylaws.

So the chair is counted as a sitting member to establish quorum and shall vote if only three commissioners are present.

So you have seen that before, where Andrew occasionally gets to exercise the right to vote, but not very often.

So remind me, so if that is that's when we have three commissioners up here.

Total.

Three people, including me.

Yes.

Yeah, so you can do that.

So I have to vote because we have to have three numbers.

Yeah.

And I only have memory of that happening once where it was just three.

Yeah, where I had to vote.

I mean, I've had a I think there's been a tie break as well.

So anyway.

Okay.

Uncommon.

There's three of us up here.

Three.

Yeah.

I know, and one was a we couldn't get a majority vote.

Really?

Yeah.

Oh.

And so yeah, we had to have all three of us vote.

Motion didn't pass.

And so it just got continued.

We had no, we had to kind of deliberate for a little while longer and discuss and then finally.

I remember that.

Yeah.

Um, I think there were like three motions before we got to one that had three votes.

That actually went.

There you go.

Okay.

Okay.

Just really quickly.

How soon do approved minutes need to be posted for the public?

Any idea?

We've got three business days after the meeting.

We've got 30 days after holding the meeting, seven calendar days after approving the minutes, or as soon as reasonably possible.

I think it's D.

Okay.

It is A.

Oh wow.

Three business days.

That's it.

Yeah.

Three business days after approving the written minutes of an open meeting.

So that transcription is is posted that quickly within three days.

We have to do it goes through the recorder.

So that's the post of mine.

From when you do by three days.

When you approve.

From when you approve it.

Oh, once they're approved.

I was gonna say because that transcription process does not take just three days.

Yeah.

So now that you've approved the minutes.

That's why I try to list the names off too.

If you notice on who's speaking, it's a little bit right just up here because the transcriber Craig Hawker and I used to sound the same, and so the transcription person was so I I tried it.

That's why I rattled off your name.

It's not just for fun.

I appreciate that.

You got it.

All right.

It's nice to hear your name though, too, isn't it?

That's nice.

People like that.

Yeah.

People are okay.

So under the statute, what's a justifiable reason to hold a closed meeting?

Oh, uh private stuff, like oh, sorry, never mind.

So we've got a discussion regarding a controversial recommendation from a city planner.

B to learn confidential details about a developer's recent crime in the city.

C interview a person applying to fill a chair position or a midterm vacancy.

Or D strategy session to discuss pending or reasonably imminent litigation.

It's gonna be D.

Good job, you guys.

It's a strategy session to discuss the pending or reasonably imminent litigation.

So under the statute, it gives you these reasons here that these are the purposes you could have a closed meeting.

These are the only ones that apply to the city.

Um so like when they are discussing, you know, the the professional competence of somebody, or if they're talking about collective bargaining or they're doing the litigation or the sale or you know, purchase of property, you don't want that to become public information.

So you've got some valid reasons why a body would hold a closed meeting.

But this is a little bit of a trick question for you guys.

Um 3.13, every meeting of the planning commission is to be open to the public and conducted in accordance with the Utah State Open and Public Meetings Act.

So we don't actually have a carve out for you guys to go into closed session.

Yeah.

The the city council does.

City council does, but we do not.

That's what that's why we never really talk about anything in the in the dinner uh session about like hey, what's coming up on this or anything like that.

So I mean we might reminisce about uh the past meeting.

Yeah, I was gonna say, even um if we had study sessions, and some cities do have study sessions before we'll kind of go over the agenda and that kind of thing, those are public.

Those would be open.

Yeah, those would be open, they'd be recorded.

Yep.

Yep.

Okay.

Okay.

How much time is required to notice a public meeting?

24 hours.

Annual, not less than 24 hours, or all of the above.

24.

Wow.

24 typical.

But you can't have an emergency meeting at least.

Actually, it's all the above.

I think it's all of the above because we have our schedule.

And we vote on it at the end of the year for the next year, I think.

So it's all of those where it's not less than 24 hours.

So we know we always have a deadline that we got to post it 24 hours before, right?

We have to hold it there the whole time.

It can't like go up and then we pull it down.

I think that's to prevent people from doing that.

And then um, if we have an annual meeting schedule, we have to post that as well.

So there you go, it's all of those things.

And then how often are you required to be trained on the open and public meetings act?

Is it A, each time a member of the public body is newly elected or appointed annually?

C, there is no training requirement because we do this for fun, or is it monthly?

Annually.

Good job.

Okay, yes, it's annually.

And this is by law.

We have to give you training on the open and public meetings act every year.

So that's why we're doing it this year.

I know you guys really enjoy this, and it's super fun.

That's a good one.

That's a good one.

We have to do this.

All right.

I like the tests.

Okay.

So what is something that does not need to be recorded in the official meetings in the official minutes?

We've got a date, time and place of the meeting, B, names of members present and absent, C, a record by individual member of each vote taken.

D, the verbatim dialogue of all matters proposed, discussed, or decided.

D.

D.

It's D.

You guys are good.

Okay.

So it's the verbatim dialogue.

And you've seen the minutes, so you know they kind of do a little a summary of your comments, but they don't do a verbatim transcript.

So everything else we've got to we've got to show.

So we've got to do the date, the time and place, the names of all members present and absent, and the substance of the matters proposed or discussed and decided.

So the when we hit that, then we've we've complied with the statute.

Okay.

Here's a next um recommendation, and it would be don't commit chaos on the record.

And that's when you start talking over each other.

And so it's really hard for the transcriptionist when people start to speak on top of each other.

And so keep in mind that all of our meetings are recorded and they are transcribed, and it gets really hard sometimes for them to follow, like who's saying what?

So just be mindful of that.

It doesn't happen very often, but sometimes it does.

So keep that in mind when you're speaking.

Um to make sure that uh you're not on top of each other.

It's just so the transcriptioner will have have a better day.

Okay.

Which of these is not a requirement for electronic meetings?

A adoption of a resolution rule or ordinance governing the use of electronic meetings by the public body.

B, always have an anchor location where the public may attend.

C, give public notice of the electronic meeting in accordance with state code.

D, except for unanimous vote, all votes shall be taken by roll call.

Which one of these is not a requirement for electronic meetings?

Any idea?

Probably D.

Right?

Because unanimous vote?

Always have.

Well, remember during COVID, we always had an anchor location, then we had to have some little business about that the anchor location will be will be closed.

That we're it's a it's only a name, not in openness.

Or didn't we?

No, someone was here.

And running the meeting, yes, Jen was here.

It has uh streamlined the code since COVID.

Oh, sweet.

Because of COVID.

It's because of COVID.

Okay, good.

So B, so we don't need the anchor location anymore because of COVID.

Oh yeah, so we missed too.

Yeah, Jennifer would be here running the Zoom meeting from here in by herself in the echoey chamber here.

Yeah.

Um, I think when we first started the digital meetings, we had to have one of you here.

Um, and it yeah, but everything was on Zoom.

But then the state did change the law, so we didn't have to have the anchor location.

Staff was still, there was still at least one or two staff people here because we had to run it through our recording system and that kind of thing, but then everybody else was at home.

And you didn't have to allow for members of the public to come in at them.

Yeah, they were allowed into the Zoom meetings, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So you can see it's kind of just I call it a nitpicky little exception.

It's basically if you look at 5B, the location where it would normally meet has been ordered closed to the public for health and safety reasons.

So there you go.

I've I've trained you now on a very minute portion of the statute just because of COVID.

Okay, yeah, right.

All right, which of these would not be a public meeting regulated by the Open and Public Meetings Act?

A, a chance gathering by Adam Lisa and Mary in the grocery store.

B a social gathering of Gary, Christine, and Linda at a holiday party.

C, draper days when a quorum of the public body are in attendance, or D, all of the above.

Which of these are not a public meeting regulated by the statute?

D.

D.

D.

All of the above.

Good job.

It's D.

Okay, so chance or social meetings used to be a carve out, but they changed it in 2024.

So now it says that um individuals constituting a quorum of a public body may not act together outside a meeting in a concerted and deliberate way to pretend to predetermine action to be taken by the public body at a meeting on a relevant matter.

So that's what you need to keep in mind is that you can't do that.

But if you have a chance meeting outside and it hasn't been called or convened by the chair, it's it's not going to be regulated by the open public meeting.

So we can say hi to each other at the grocery store.

You sure can.

Does this mean now I have to invite everyone to my New Year's Eve party?

Is that because that was my excuse?

Well, now we know when it is.

It's New Year's Eve.

Oh, I'm kidding.

I don't really have one.

Oh, the date.

It was wild.

Hey, uh is there any because there that is the anchor location.

So is there anything uh regarding that you can advise us on calling each other and talking about something?

Well, you know, so you can't predetermine, right?

So, like, yes, I would say like in your bylaws, you have things where it's like you need to maintain um you don't you're not gonna take action on an item before it actually comes up in a meeting, right?

Right.

So you want to make sure that your deliberations are in front of the public and not offline.

So I mean, if you were to call each other to discuss it in a chance, that's that's on purpose.

That you can do talk to other planning commissioners.

Um I looked at that recently.

So to talk to city staff and ask questions, and then you can I I believe it said you could have conversations with planning commissioners.

Um I didn't I don't remember it addressing quorum, but um just talking through things, I think.

Yeah, I mean, is that so just to address it?

So if I could call up Mary and say, hey, Mary, what do you think about that sign height or what do you think about that?

What that this is commissioner to commissioner, not council to commissioner.

So that's the first question I have, and then I'll ask about the the city council.

I think it's a spectrum to answer your question.

Because I think if you were to just call Mary and say, Hey, what do you think about this, Mary?

Just to get your thoughts on it, you're probably not gonna be in violation.

But what you want to be careful is are you doing it in such a way that you're predetermining a decision?

And so the reason why, does anybody know who this is in this picture?

Yeah, that's uh Bobby Knight, the chair throw he throws chairs chairs, right?

Do you guys know what happens?

Chair thrower.

Chair throwers.

What you don't see in this right hand here is a metal wrestling chair.

Yeah, and this right hand it's chopped off there.

Yeah, he's gonna launch one.

Yeah.

So the reason why I put a picture of him up is because um I used to, I'm licensed in Indiana as well, and I worked for Bloomington.

And um my boss's uncle was on the board of trustees that was part of this lawsuit.

So what they did, the board of the trustees of the university, they had a party, and they had like three, I think it was either nine or twelve trustees, I can't remember how many, but they made sure that they didn't have quorum in the same room.

And so they had like three in the dining room, three in the kitchen, three in the like in the back room, and they all decided they're gonna fire Bobby Knight.

That's how they did it.

So they made sure they did it off, they because they were like, he's so popular, how are we gonna fire him?

But we have to fire him based on his behavior, right?

Like we can't, we can't condone this conduct any longer, but we don't want to incur the wrath of the public when we let him go because he's so beloved by these like sports fans.

So they totally circumvented their open and public meetings act to do that.

They end up getting sued by Bobby Knight.

This is a lawsuit that goes on for years.

Now they actually ended up winning, like IU won this lawsuit, but they spent millions in their defense fee on this one.

And so even though they texted the university did, and so in just attorneys' fees and defending it from him because it went to the state supreme court, and so like it was just like years of like appeals and interlocutory appeals, like he pushed all the way and he made him pay for this.

I mean, like he was so vindictive on it.

So they did win, they prevailed.

They prevailed doing that quorum in the other.

Okay, so that's how it's yeah.

For the New Year's party, separate rooms.

Oh, you have to stay in the kitchen.

I'll invite you.

And there's only five of us, so I'll be in the kitchen by myself.

Oh, okay, sorry, sorry, okay.

Yeah, thanks for that.

All right.

But the point of that is to say, like, the university ended up considering that a loss because of how much that it's spent on the defense fees.

So I think they realize like we can't get creative with the open and public meetings laws of Indiana.

Like we actually need to comply with this because it just created such a huge legal heading.

Not worth it.

Yeah.

So that's why I just bring him up as an example.

Like, have the conversations, but just make sure that you're not making decisions.

So a call just to say, hey, what do you think about that?

Uh just but would be different than me having a checklist going, okay, I've got Mary on board, now Gary, and now let's see, right?

That's obviously different.

That's lobbying.

That's this.

What about uh talking with um council members?

So some team.

It's interesting.

Yeah, our city council members.

Sometimes it's interesting because I never know if they're listening to the meetings or not.

And you know, in the past I've had a call like, hey, we listened to that meeting, and you know, you guys were really this and this and this.

And it's not a it's not obviously they're they're they're calling downstream, right?

Not upstream, because our meetings already passed and they're calling about a meeting that did happen that already had happened in the past.

So I mean, well uh those are tell us about that, like what's what's allowed there, what's uh what's that?

Because that that to me was really just uh um happened maybe once and since 2012 since I've been here, maybe twice, but just to say, hey, what did you mean by that, or what did you think about that?

Sound like you guys were pretty adamantly against this.

What did you what did you mean?

Does that make sense?

Just it's almost like a hey, I listen to your meeting and can yeah, tell me more.

You know, so your bylaws are different than the procedures that govern the city council to some degree, because in a way you are not supposed to make public comment in advance of a decision, and so like that's why like you have to maintain like the appearance of like of neutrality before it comes to you.

When you have already rendered a decision on an issue, and a city council member calls you, you can tell them your thoughts.

I mean, I think at that point you can you can be fully like open with like this is what I was thinking, this is like what I considered.

After that, but this is after the planning commission.

And can we call upstream and say, hey, this is what we were this is this is really important?

Uh that you I hope you listen to the meeting if you didn't.

Uh yeah, yeah, I I wouldn't do it, and I and I say that not because I think there's any rules against it, but I know the city council doesn't like it.

So um I think they some of them more than others um might take offense at it, and so they might feel like you are trying like taking uh like lobbying them to something, and and I think that's a personal decision on their on their side.

I mean, like whether or not they feel that way.

I I just know that some of them do, but I couldn't speak for all of them.

Um does our and again I'm just going down a rabbit hole, so when does when does it my commissioner hat come off and my I live in Draper and this sucks uh hat come on?

Back on.

So that's a good question because I get a vote for them as well, right?

Yeah, I'm not chopped liver.

Yeah, you will notice that sometimes you're gonna have decisions, it's not the same decision that comes up in front of you, but it's like you've got the zoning decision that comes in, and then you've got like you're gonna have like a site plan decision come in.

Like you're gonna see this project more than once, and generally it's not gonna come back to you.

So at that point, I think you're probably free to have say whatever you want to say and and exercise you know your your rights to free speech.

The only caveat that I would give you for that is that um we have members of the public who are sometimes very oppositional to the the decision that's gonna be made, and if they rightly or wrongly believe that there's been some kind of influence, you could risk being named in a lawsuit, right?

So, like that's the one thing I think you'd want to be careful of is like does somebody come in and sue the city and then name you individually, yeah.

So that's why I would say use caution in what you express.

Um but like after it's after you guys it's passed you on like your decision making at that point, I think it's kind of off your plate.

Yeah, okay.

So that brings up the point, for example, remember uh we sat in the back of that meeting and you gave me a heart attack.

We were almost yeah, yes, because you thought we were gonna get up I know you should have afterheads on my account.

Yeah.

Never okay.

So when I walked in, like sat next to Mary, Jen had a heart attack.

Yeah, so that would that is great advice because that is absolutely not good for us to in between the two meetings when we say, hey, this is our decision, now go see what happens on Tuesday to now come in and start public commenting on to the city council about that's that right.

Because remember the question was like, are we getting up?

Are we gonna and we said no?

We just have to remember that we're appointed, yeah, and angering the person who appointed us is unwise if we want to keep our jobs.

Like that's the way I look at it.

Well, even if even if we even if we were uh even if we were absolutely uh in support of what the city council wanted or or what they were what what whatever it is, even if it wasn't to stir the pot and make anybody angry, even if we were just here to support, right?

That's a little bit different.

I remember one time um I mean again, I've been up here forever, so I remember one time we just came in and something about uh uh dog poop in the water or something like that.

That was a good thing.

I wasn't on planning commission then.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that was a big thing, and so just to be able to uh you know come support that or whatever, but anyway, so this clarifies it.

So just to be clear, that uh that's that's totally clear in my mind right now.

Because that was still open, that is not appropriate for uh planning sitting planning commissioner to talk about at public comment.

And now, right?

I don't think that's what you're showing up.

It's already passed our purview.

Yeah, yeah.

So okay, well, let me just be let me be super clear.

It was that meeting where I don't know what the topic was, but Mary and I sat in the back.

Could we have gotten up and spoken on that or not?

And the public meeting when it came up to the city council.

Yes, I think as a citizen.

As a citizen.

Yes, you could have gone up and spoken on it.

We didn't, because uh frankly, everything we were gonna say had been said, and it would just be we know how public comment goes.

So this is my point.

Yeah, I'm angering the person.

I've got a couple of things.

And I and the three of us kind of talked at the end, because I was like, you guys scared me.

Yeah.

Um, but I I think you also have to keep in mind to optics.

Sure.

Exactly.

Is it legal?

Is it appropriate?

Yeah, should we do it?

Can we do it?

Yeah, we shouldn't, even though we can't.

Well, is it bad for us to sit in the back?

Is it better for us to listen in?

You can come.

Yeah, you can you can go.

Okay.

Well I'm just asking.

I'm just gonna do that.

I would also point out that we if we have a meeting on that topic, we can state our piece.

We can talk for as long as our chair will let us on any topic.

This is a bigger platform than that.

Yeah, and and we have a chance to say our piece, so I don't know that's a great point.

I feel like it's necessary to make public comment.

We obviously and at that point in the meeting, staff has already presented the planning commission recommendation.

I think that's another component you should look at.

There are times where council does listen to the meetings, either live or or after the fact listens to planning commission meetings because they will reference those meetings.

Um, or if there's a split vote, they'll ask specifically, you know, why what was the alternative, you know, thoughts, that kind of thing.

So we do provide to city council the recommendations that come from.

Whether they listened in or not.

That's a great point.

Whether they listen to it or not, they are provided that record.

At the meeting.

Good.

Yeah.

I think that's that's a great that's a great point.

Because we've we talked at nauseum about it.

And we didn't need to put another three minute comment in.

I'll also add to the earlier discussion of you know, can we call each other to talk?

Um, you know, you you can as Tracy outlined, um, but you can also call staff.

You can email staff, and uh Susan emailed earlier today a question about that public uh comment that that you guys got.

Yeah.

Um, you guys can call either me or Todd or the staff person on the application if you have questions, if you have concerns and we can talk through what what the application is, what your concerns are, and and go from there.

Great.

Another thing that might also help with what Tracy mentioned.

If you do feel the need to maybe send something or communicate to that city council member, if you put it in writing, it can be discovered under a grandma.

Yeah.

So if you email that to them, that that could come up.

So it really wanna always Mary brought up the best point is that this is our platform to communicate.

And and I and my and we I do.

I do speak up here with the intention that the city council will hear it.

And so this is better than a phone call, frankly.

It's like if you want to hear what we think, just listen in or listen to what the staff report states.

So that's a great point.

Thanks for bringing that up, Mary.

That's good.

And for the record, in the eight years I've been here, I don't know about you, Andrew, but I don't think I've ever had a conversation with anyone beforehand.

I I don't believe ever on the planning commission.

So I mean, I think technically it may be allowed, but like it's not something I mean, it's never been I'm I never have, and it's if it's been it's for you know whatever, like hey, I'm not gonna be at the meeting.

We've run into each other at the grocery store.

I just wanted to make that clear it wasn't advocating.

It doesn't ever something, but yeah.

I'm just asking while it's here.

So that that meeting was probably the weirdest version of that that we've experienced.

Like what yeah.

All right.

This is at trainings hourly, correct?

We're making sure this is hourly.

So we're putting in billable hours here for training, guys.

This is great.

This is great.

We're we're checking.

We are more than halfway though through this.

Oh, we're only halfway through.

No, we're more than halfway, I promise.

Oh, I was gonna say, sorry, I was asking real genuine questions.

Sorry.

No, I you did say poop.

I'm gonna did I ask as many questions because I do want you to know.

Like I I hope that you like feel like comfortable in in what you're looking I want to put a poop email on the agenda.

Sure.

Dangerous one.

Okay.

True or false.

A meeting of the planning commission with a quorum present to tour a new city facility would be a public meeting regulated by the statute.

Yes.

Yeah, I would say so.

You'd say yes.

It's false.

Oh, because you're just touring because let's look at the definition of meeting.

It's outside our jurisdiction.

It is the definition of meeting um is that it's a public body or specified body with a quorum present that is convened by an individual with authority to convene the public body or specified body and following the provide the process provided by law for the express purpose of acting as a public body to receive public comment about a relevant matter to deliberate about that matter and to take action upon that matter.

So it would not be an open and public meeting if you go and do a tour.

And we have done this before.

So I only recall once, but it can it can happen.

Okay.

What items must be included on the agenda?

A reasonable specificity about topics to be considered, B, dress code for the meeting, C action items, D, Pledge of Allegiance.

Dress code.

D.

D.

I promised I would mute my microphone, but I can't resist.

I'd like D to be uh reviewed.

I'd like to review D.

You'd like to review.

I'd like to see if that can be added.

The pledge of allegiance.

We have the flag right there.

They do it at city council.

Why waste exactly?

Why waste a perfectly good flag, Mary?

Yeah.

Okay, so but seriously.

Okay.

But seriously, it is a reasonable specificity about topics to be considered.

So this is so that you can't evade public scrutiny on things and like say, hey, we're gonna talk about something really benign and no big deal, but what we're really gonna get into is like the you know, the dirty details of something that everybody's interested in.

So you have to be reasonably specific about the topics that you're going to consider.

Okay, and then the order of operation in terms of agenda items.

So this is in our bylaws.

This is you guys do this already, but just to confirm this, the way that it is supposed to go down is that you do the intro of the agenda item by the chair, then we have the presentation by staff and any of your questions to the staff.

Then you have the applicant or the agent come up and do their presentation, and then you can ask them questions, right?

Then we have the explanation to the public, which comes from Andrew.

Great job, Andrew.

Then we get the public comment, then we do the closure of the public hearing, then you get what I call the reply because they have the burden of proof.

Essentially, the applicant gets to come back up and they get to conclude and they get to fill any of the planning commission's questions, and then that's when you go into your discussion and questions and deliberation, and then you take a vote.

So that is sort of the order of operation for you, and you have done a fantastic job.

You rarely deviate from this.

So thank you.

Everyone keeps me honest.

Thank you.

Sometimes I think we've like every once in a while, it's yeah, it's mostly just a forgetting than anything else, right?

Okay, true or false.

Commissioners may not text or email each other during a public meeting.

Oh wow, this is a this is a good one to talk about.

Yeah.

Oh.

I would say true.

I'd say true.

Well, yeah.

Is the content well, I guess I'll read it.

It is discoverable under grandma if you text each other during a meeting.

Even if it's not relevant.

Yep.

This is what the statute says.

524210.

Nothing in this chapter may be construed to restrict a member of a public body from transmitting an electronic message to other members of the public body at a time when the public body is not convened in a meeting.

So wait a minute.

So notice how it's worded when it's not convened in a meeting.

So you can do it any other time except for where you when you're convened in a meeting.

And it's just each other.

Yeah, to each other.

So if you want to text me.

I mean, not that I text anybody during our meeting.

You can, you can text me the kids.

I text all the time.

Yeah, I was gonna say it's just not each other during the meeting.

So that's the one thing that the statute prohibits.

Okay.

And like I said, what I think would happen is that if you did, if it was later um in a lawsuit, or if we were to receive a grammar request, we would have to produce that.

So there you go.

Okay, we're getting close.

Which of the following is false?

Commission actions require a motion, B, a motion fails if it does not receive a second.

C motions to amend need no permission from the original maker or second second of the motion, and D, motions to continue or recess are not allowed.

So which of these are false?

D.

You are correct, Mary.

Okay, D.

So motions.

Yeah.

We have to be able to recess because we do it.

Yes.

So motions to continue or take a recess are allowed.

So this is specifically in our bylaw, and so you do need to state a reason for the continuance, which you usually do.

It's just like let's take like a 10-minute break, let's go, you know, do like you know, just get a drink of water, go use the restroom.

Um if you want to do a sorry, that's a recess.

If you want to do a continuance, you can also do a continuance too.

So if somebody wants to move a hearing, like you've got an item in front of you, and you want to continue that item, you can do a motion to continue.

You have to have a specific date that it's gonna be heard again.

So generally, like you couldn't do a motion to continue to put somebody off, like you don't want to make a decision on it, right?

So you would have to say, hey, we need more information.

So I'm gonna move, we continue this, get your second, do your deliberation on why you're gonna continue it, and then set a date, because then that way you're not leaving them hanging, and they think like, oh crap, I've just gotten you know hung out to dry indefinitely and I'm not getting a decision.

So usually you want to do it within 45 days, too.

So I think that's the time frame on it.

Um now it can also be requested by the applicant if they if they do that motion before you take a vote.

So if you're already in your vote and then they're like, I want to continue this, it's too late.

So as long as they do it before you go into a vote, they can also request a continuance.

So there you go.

You can do a motion to take a recess and you can do a motion to continue.

Yeah, so ask your question, Susan.

Yeah, this is a good one.

Not too long ago.

Spencer there was one item that we talked about on an agenda that we wanted we were talking about possibly continuing it, I think it was a conditional use.

I don't remember now.

Continuing it or whatever.

And Spencer was quite adamant that we could not continue it.

Yeah, there's there's a um, I think a couple applications in the code where it says planning commission approves or denies or approves of the conditions, and that's your option.

Um so that's what Spencer was going off of.

So your bylaws say you know, you can do continuances on things generally, but we also have to comply with our code.

Yeah, so which ones can't be continued.

I guess I think the other part of that too is when it's when you continue.

If it's something that's on the agenda, like the applicant asks at the beginning, I I'd like to just continue this.

You once you've had that hearing, I think is what Spencer was getting at.

Once you've had the hearing, you've you've done the the work of getting the information.

Uh then you're no return and you have to make a decision.

Well, you gotta make a change.

No, this is not too long ago.

Might right remember it.

I think it was the CUP and Spencer was like, no, you don't have the choice to continue it.

You must go with Spencer and Tracy and ask.

And look at the different applications.

Yes.

This is not gonna pass at all.

Yes.

Yeah.

And so he said, No, you don't have commissioners, you don't have the option of continuing.

You have to make a decision to you know, and that's a good like caveat because your bylaws are gonna say you have the ability to do a motion, right?

But it's not being like you're gonna have certain sections of code that are gonna be specific where it's gonna require something like a time frame is gonna be imposed on that.

So it might be a little bit of an ad hoc basis where it's like, is this something where we could continue this particular matter?

There might be some things that come up that maybe you couldn't.

And sometimes they're running into deadlines too.

The applicant is where it's like, if you continue this, then I'm gonna lose the purchase, right?

Like I go, I fall out of contract or something like that.

So I could see where there would be situations where you might want to consider.

Well, can he say that?

Because that that that's I'm god jump in because the how I mean, how bad does a continuation hurt the applicant?

That's always what I'm worried about.

Because we're not up here, they're up against the end of the year.

Like you just mentioned, if you've got 90 days to you've got something under contract, you're trying to paper it up before the 90th day, and you're in in day 81, and now we want to continue it for two weeks.

That would financially hurt the the applicant really badly versus someone that's just trying to get a but I don't think that that was the case.

It wasn't.

It was a weird, it was a good idea.

It was a weird, it was a weird deal, and we were all kind we were kind of like, oh, okay.

So what so what we'll do is uh stop work with Spencer and Tracy to come up with uh a list of the applications and what can be continued and what can't be continued, so we can let you guys know.

Okay, yeah, just I mean that's not our go-to, right?

Remember, remember just a few meetings ago, maybe just the last one's like, well, why continue it?

The same same public comments are gonna be made, the same, it's all gonna be the same.

We're just gonna have you know the another meeting of the same, so let's just pull the band-aid on.

Yeah, and I I get that in that case.

But that was a weird one that I've done.

We were told, yeah, you cannot do it.

Was it so that we wouldn't get sued?

Because it's possible.

I mean, that's that's I mean, from you to Spencer to Mike Barker, it's always been like, hey, if we if we get because they'll they'll know something we don't, and they'll just say, hey, look, at this point, I would advise that we don't do that because either it's a litigious applicant and they know it, or it's already where they're up he and you, someone else staff knows that there's a date.

Why can that stuff can that stuff just be said saying these guys have 10 more days on their purchase contract?

Or is that private and it just needs to be said to us because sometimes I don't know what you can say and what you can't say, and then it turns into this weirdness.

Yeah, then it then it turns in this weirdness of now.

Then it then it turns into this weirdness of now, well, then you're gonna send a text and you're gonna do all the stuff we shouldn't do just because you can nobody says it, right?

Because they're all just hush hush.

It's like, well, why?

Why can we why can we not continue this one?

And now texting goes, What's going on?

You know, and then we're doing all this other stuff.

So is there other things that you just cannot say as staff?

So this word Smiths, we were not able to say for quite a few months there, you know.

Um I don't know if we're I don't know if we can still allow to say it.

Yeah, um, I I get it.

So it's stuff like that that you just can't say.

There are certain things that sometimes we we can't say, or if it's an applicant's specific, you know, purchase contract, we may not know what what the deal with their contract is, and they and it's up to them whether they want to share that or not.

Okay, so last question that I have on continuance does the applicant need to agree?

No, no, they don't.

So Tracy, if the bylaws in the code are in conflict, and I know they're trying to be written so that they're not in conflict, but if they are, does the code trump the bylaws?

Yes.

I would expect that to be the case.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

So um, and here's another thing on this one on the motion to re to recess.

The bylaw itself technically says any sitting commissioner may move to recess at any point during the commission meeting and shall contain a specific time to reconvene.

So you have that language in there, but I would recommend that if you were to take a recess that you do it in between items that you're considering and not in the middle of it, just because it would could look like, oh, we're gonna like take a break.

Yeah, exactly.

So just to avoid the appearance of like collusion, I would say, even though you've got this flexibility here, I would I would make sure your items are done before you do a a break for a recent.

So you have to go to the bathroom.

Yeah, gotta wait.

Yeah, you gotta wait.

But though that's something to keep in mind though, because sometimes we've sat here for a really long time.

And yeah, so just know that any of you can ask for or can do a motion.

They don't need to pass a note that I make the motion, they can do it.

Say I'm I'm I move we take a bathroom break, buy a break, whatever.

Okay.

Yes.

It's probably better that they don't pass a note anyways.

Correct.

Then definitely don't text me with that.

Okay.

Definitely.

I I've got a reminder.

We'd hate to grandma that.

I need to go to the bathroom.

Which of the following is true of these items here.

I I would like an emoji on the agenda for high risk, high, high uh highly dangerous applications.

You would like a motion?

Uh an emoji.

A certain emoji.

Certain emoji not to be named, but maybe we could come up with one.

Oh, that's interesting.

Okay.

That would be your code for you know, we it's high risk, we need police department, something like that.

All right, I'm gonna say B because I I want to go home.

Okay.

All right.

So yeah, it's which of which of these is true.

You don't need permission to amend another commissioner's motion once once seconded, but before the vote.

B if you amend a motion, it must be seconded.

C, if you amend a motion, it must not change the decision stated in the first motion.

D, the motion to amend is voted on before the underlying motion is further considered.

This kind of gets into some like motion like um details.

Basically, all of those are true.

So there you go.

If you want to take a look at this.

Right, but A and C and D.

Yes.

Right, right.

But just so you know, the all of these are true, so you don't need the permission of somebody to amend a commissioner's motion once it's seconded, but before the vote.

So if somebody like does a motion to approve and another person seconds it, and you're like, hold up, I move, we amend that motion, you can do that.

And then you do have to have a second if you do the amendment.

And um basically it can't change the decision, you're basically gonna modify it, and then the motion to amend is voted on before the underlying motion is further considered.

So you're gonna do the amendment, and then you're gonna go with the underlying motion if that makes sense.

So that's the technical correct way to proceed on an amendment to a motion.

All right.

You can do what's called a reconsideration of a prior motion that has passed.

Now this gets super technical.

I don't know that you guys really care so much about this.

Um, but you can reconsider.

So if the commission has, if you have voted in favor of a motion that has passed, but then you change your mind after rethinking it, right?

You, if you voted to approve it, can move to reconsider the prior motion in the same meeting, and it has to be seconded, and another round of votes has to go.

And it will um basically so right, like that's technically something you can do.

Keep that in mind if you really want to get into this, we can after the agenda items already been moved on.

What if yeah, I could have total voters remorse, three agenda items later and say I want to rescind my vote.

I I think you would have to do motion to reconsider.

Everyone's vote.

So everybody has this is important because how many times have you voted and felt sick about it?

And then you we you know, right?

So pay attention to this.

So there you go.

So but keep in mind if you voted against it, you can't do the motion to reconsider.

It has to be somebody who voted to pass it.

So it can't be a good idea.

It can't be can't be losers' remorse.

Exactly.

It has to be winners' remorse.

So as long as it's in the same meeting.

So if you've got a few other items, seriously.

Isn't that weird?

So right now, in fact, you know what?

I'd like to I'd like to ponder.

Can the chair do that?

And then voters remorse here.

You know, that's a good question.

Never mind.

I it doesn't, I won't.

Okay.

I won't.

I don't know.

It says you have to have voted in favor.

You don't vote.

I never will.

And I and I think one of the key things is that last point.

The reconsideration only takes place after legal notice.

So yes, it's three items later in the agenda.

The public that was here is gone, the applicant's gone.

You guys can make that motion and vote to reconsider, but then staff is going back, re-noticing contacting the property of the applicant.

And it's happening in a future meeting.

So it continues it, and you could they could have left, the applicant could have left thinking they've got a yes.

We've reconsidered, and then two weeks later they've got to come back in again to hear it again.

So that is the ultimate crummy way to continue for an applicant.

It's possible.

It's possible.

And I think this is a good idea.

I think this slide should just be burned.

We burn this slide.

Yes.

That this is even an option.

I think this is sort of a consider before we vote.

Let's you don't get a vote.

That's final answer.

You won't feel that remorse.

All right.

Okay.

Let's do okay.

Hold on.

I want to do bonus question here.

All right.

What is a criminal penalty for a closed meeting violation?

Is it a an infraction removal from your appointed position?

Is it a class B misdemeanor?

Is it death?

Or is it a thousand dollar fine and removal from your position?

It's probably just A.

That's what I would think is.

Oh, you're so wrong, you guys.

It's death.

It's a capital felony.

Okay, no, just kidding.

It's a classic.

Oh, it's B.

Yeah.

It's B.

It's a class B.

So it's a class B misdemeanor.

Criminal penalty.

You don't get removed.

Closed meeting violations.

Oh, sweet.

Again, this is a little bit of a trick question for you because you guys never go into closed meetings.

So don't worry about it.

You really can't be prosecuted for a class B uh violation of the closed meeting law unless you I guess if you try to go into a closed meeting, maybe but this would apply to like city council because closed meetings are an option.

For them.

Got it.

Right.

Cool.

So there you go.

You're done.

Your open and public meeting training is completed.

Good job, you guys.

I have one question.

I'm just curious about it.

And I and I actually like that the why we do this, but why why did are these meetings not televised?

Video.

Oh.

Why are they not televised?

Yeah, I mean they have the audio, but they're not televised.

That is it's only audio, which is really weird for people to answer this.

I wasn't paying attention.

What was the question?

I'm this is just I'm just curious why these planning commission meetings are not uh televised video, they're audio, but not video.

I I like it, I'm not complaining.

If you but it's interesting that the video's not available on the website when you're the slides are available, but yeah, but that's it.

I think I know that.

Oh, there's not like a separate video, so you can see the commissioner.

Like okay, like Murray City, they are live streamed they they are live streamed, so if you go to the website where the minutes and agendas are held, you can click on while while it's happening, you can click on view event.

They can see the slides and listen to the audio.

But it's but it's not video, yeah.

You're not seeing yeah, yeah.

There's no video to show the council change.

I'm curious why that is because that's kind of old school.

No, I think it I'm not complaining.

I don't think Draper's ever done that, as far as I know.

I think it's a technology thing.

I don't think we have the technology for it.

Most what's that?

We're okay with that.

Oh, yeah, I'm okay with it.

I'm not complaining, but because Murray was live streamed everything.

Video, the whole tune in very if I remember right, Nicole told me that we would have to upgrade our system in here, and it would be super expensive.

Don't want to do that.

Probably we're complying with the code.

Yeah, oh, for sure.

So I wasn't questioning that.

I was just curious.

Listen, I'm just glad we have a bulletproof little hiding place up here.

I'll take that upgrade over video camera.

Oh, I agree.

All right.

Well, I think you can that was a great training.

Okay, thank you.

How many hours do you think we've got clocked on training?

One hour and one minute.

At least one hour.

That was probably a thirty minute training too.

Thirty minute training that we milked out to an hour.

Thank you so much.

That was really well done.

That was really well done.

Thank you for getting us part.

All right.