Public safety complex.

We'll open this discussion with the administration.

No.

Okay.

We're going to start with Rob Mars.

Okay.

And then we'll move into PNCN office.

All right.

Good to know.

Thank you.

Yeah, good afternoon.

I'm Bob Mars and I have Adam Trott with me.

And Adam prepared the schedule of activities that went on starting back in March.

Why don't you go through your scheduler now?

Yeah, thanks for having us.

So the project started in March when March when the city uh brought us on board.

Uh we went through preliminary design development, construction documents.

The project went out to bid in parts.

Um with the impending season of winter coming, uh, we broke out the roof from the rest of the project, and we bid that out separately and got bids in July.

And uh we have since signed contracts, had a pre-construction meeting just today.

Uh and so they're off and running.

The idea is to replace the roof ahead of the rest of the project, because if we get the roof on, then the rest of the project can continue on when the winter comes.

So that's that's what we're doing right at the moment.

Um the we'll go over numbers here for a second.

Um the we had two estimates done on the phase one Erie Fire Department service garage project, 22,000 square feet plus or minus.

And uh the initial estimate from preliminary design was up around 9 mil.

Um we have since then taken the project through design development, had another estimate, and that estimate came in at 8.4 mil.

When we broke out the roof, uh if if you take the trophy point estimate and you break out the scope of work that we have bid right now for the roof that we have under contract, uh their estimate was a little over 1.4 million.

Um the bids for that work ranged between 1.1 million and 650,000, give or take.

Okay.

We vetted the low bidder, we took the low bidder because they they met all the requirements.

Um we're ahead of the game on this first phase uh cost-wise.

Um if you look at the other bids, the this this low bid was an outlier, so it they got vetted pretty heavily, right?

Um if you look at the other bids, they're around one point one million trophy points estimate was 1.4.

So we're coming in ahead of the costs.

Um if if you look at uh the low bid was 738,000 less than the estimate, the other bids that were close together were still 375,000 below the estimate.

So our early indications are that so far we're doing well compared to the estimate.

Um, as it stands right now, so if we take trophy points 8.4 mil estimate, and we replace the roof repair that we just bid out and have contracted for, um, it reduces trophy points estimate using all their other figures from 8.4 to 7.7 mil.

So we're pushing, we're pushing the number downward.

Um we won't know how the rest of phase one does until we get the bids.

And the bids are due October 2nd.

The bids will go out at the end of this week, and we have a pre-bid on site on uh September 11th, and then bids are due on October 2nd.

At that point, then we'll know what the rest of phase one costs.

And so that's where we're at with within.

Can you give us the Ruby's digest from phase one?

What does it include?

So phase one is the Erie Fire Department service garage.

And that is getting everything that the fire department, with exception of a few offices, it gets all their garage functions out of Marsh Street and into the facility at 23rd and French.

They have to compromise, they don't have height and all that stuff, so they do what they do to get their job done.

This will enable them to do all their job under roof.

Say that again?

October 2nd.

Well, according to the trophy point estimate, uh we would be 7.7 less the same, so around 7.

Around 7 mil is where Trophy Point is sitting right now after we take out the roof repair part of their estimate.

Um be seven plus the 1.4 for the roof.

So we're talking what, 8.5.

Well, they trophy point was at 8.4.

But that was with 1.4 for the roof, but the roof is actually 680,000 plus or minus.

So with that factored into trophy point, that takes a trophy point estimate from 8.4 to 7.7.

How did that happen?

Bidding.

It's when you estimate estimators definitely don't want to tell you a low figure, because then they get crucified for selling you short.

So they they estimate conservatively, but I'll tell you the construction industry is uh real potluck game right now with all the tariffs and lack of staff being able to build materials or or build buildings, you know, the trades are hurting.

So there's a lot of dynamics right now.

Um fortunately, the way it worked out is we got a bidder who was hungry, and they're a family-owned business.

So they have a lot of their costs are in-house.

They're they're not farming out stuff.

So it you know, it saved us a lot of money.

One of the things we wanted to vet was, hey, this is a public works project, it's got prevailing wage, all that, you know.

So we checked into the history of these guys.

These guys do a lot of public work projects.

They're out of Buffalo, so it's in New York State.

But they they've got universities and public works projects under their belt.

So that was a good fit for what their work experience is versus what we need them to do here.

Will they take in consideration the minority percentage that we look at?

They would if they had any subs.

They're family-owned business and they do it all in-house.

So they are not going out to hire subs to be responsive to that.

And they did ask about that early, and we told them, well, you know, it it's a goal of the city.

If you're hiring any subs, we want to see some activity.

And but they don't have subs.

They do it all.

You made a great point too, is that this I mean, saving money is phenomenal.

Love it.

Right.

Um, but this was probably an outlier in that this much of a saving we we can't really expect, especially with tariffs and everything else that are going forward.

So this this part.

We don't we probably won't see that replicated with that big of a that's like two-thirds versus when you compare A1 construction and painting is the successful bidder, okay.

When you compare their $684,000 bid to the 1.4, that's 50 per 52 percent under the estimate, which is quite a number.

If you look at the bidders that were real close together, just a little over a mil each, they're still 26 percent under the estimate.

And those are companies we all know.

So, you know, early indications are encouraging, they're not a guarantee, but they are encouraging.

So outside the roof, because we see that we have approved to have that done.

You've um bidded it out, it's gonna save money from the seven million that we still have in the tier one phase.

What all is included outside of the fire being in-house.

Is that just the fire?

Because I know it's like three different phases of how it's just the fire department service garage, and it includes chief mechanic, uh, equipment cleaning, um, the evidence room and the dog suite for Horace.

And it includes chief mechanic, uh, equipment cleaning, um, the evidence room and the dog suite for Horace.

Horace is awesome.

But um, so so yeah, it includes them and and other than the offices they have on the north side of the building and that one little extra piece on the north side of Marsh Street.

Um, everything else is coming out to French.

Plus, it includes all new siding at French Street, exterior siding, insulation, windows, and new blazing.

Yeah, when you get into the scope of the phase one project, um essentially we take the building envelope off down to steel framing and concrete block base wall.

And we completely redo an energy efficient envelope.

So repurposing that building from just a metal skin shell with one and a half inches of bad insulation that's badly deteriorated from age.

You know, we're putting in uh five-inch thick roof, a three-inch thick wall system, all insulated, it's metal sandwich panels.

I mean, yeah, it's it's the whole point was mitigating operational costs down the road.

So the other thing that's really nice about this project for the fire department service garage is it gives them a much healthier working environment.

Uh part of this project is a big ventilation system.

So the air changes in that garage to keep the particulates out of the lungs of the mechanics, you know, is I mean, they we have the exhaust hoses, so you know they're not getting diesel fuel, but there's a lot of work that goes on in the garage, and and there's a lot of air changes, and we're gonna meet and exceed that with this project.

So real happy about that.

That's very good.

Yeah, keep our people.

No one should be working under cancerous conditions.

Oh my gosh.

So get all that stuff out of there.

Yeah, and I mean, you know, they have the exhaust now, so they're not breathing in diesel exhaust, but but no, it it's it's gonna be a much improved environmental condition inside that building for them.

Yeah.

So we're we're real happy about that.

Do you have any kind of time frame when that phase one will start?

Yeah, it it's it's kicked off today.

There's gonna be some downtime because we have shop drawings of the roof system, and it takes time to do the shop drawings and then to manufacture and deliver them to the site.

So we have a number of weeks that nothing's gonna happen on the site because it's all being done in the back room and over the internet and all that stuff.

Um what we want to do is make sure that when we determine the date that they mobilize, and we're waiting for the dates from the manufacturer of the roof panel on that.

When that's determined, then we'll back out what they need to do before they receive the roof panels, and that's when we disrupt the fire department's current use of that space.

Right now, they just they keep some stuff in there, they they keep some vehicles, they have some training apparatus in there.

So I don't want to upset that until we were absolutely ready to go.

So we're gonna we're gonna condense that, and then we anticipate that the successful bidder of the rest of the project uh will will probably have a little bit of overlap with them finishing up the roof, because we like to get those people in there to do some of their infrastructure work and everything, as long as they can play well with the other contractor, you know, then we'll the first phase of the roof will kind of slide right into the rest of the project.

So barring any bad weather, we've allocated I think December 1st or something or so to finish up the roof project.

Okay.

Yeah, technically, their contract goes to late December.

December 29th.

But we're pushing to see how much we can expedite that.

And it all comes down to this roof panel manufacturer.

And the reason why this one is who we're going with is because their lead time was like two-thirds to half what the other manufacturers were.

This this one's being made up in Michigan.

Um Falk is the name of the manufacturer.

And uh when they came on board with those kinds of figures for lead time, we're like, oh yeah.

We'll take all the advantage we can get, you know.

Cost effect to them.

If they don't make their time, oh, a penalty?

Yeah.

There is no penalty built into the contract.

Then how do we know they're gonna do it?

Well, the references.

When I checked their other public works and their university works, um people said that they performed in a timely manner.

And uh they they also said that they were good when something comes up on the site to troubleshoot, which is a big personal thing for me.

You know, no project's perfect, and you want a team that will really work as a team when something comes up in the field, and their references came back glowing for that.

So I was glad to hear that.

Thank you.

So the timeline from start to finish for phase one is as well.

So the overall project uh finished late August.

So the transition from finishing the roof and gliding into the full bore of the rest of the project, that's gonna happen somewhere around late November into December, and then December on or late December on, then the other whoever the other successful contractor is will be carrying it through to August.

And there's um there's isolation measures that are being done so that um what you will see is the contractor of the roof will take over that parking lot in the middle of the block, and they'll have access to the parking lot and our project area in the southeast corner at 23rd and French.

And that's the extent of their access into the site.

The the rest of the site is secured off, and then when it's handed off to the other contractor, they'll have the same situation.

They'll have the yard, they'll have their structure, the 22,000 square feet we're doing now, and that's it.

That's it.

Everything else is secured off.

So they don't have to close the street.

Not unless they have a situation with a crane.

There's a big steel beam, a big steel girder that we gotta get out of there.

It's in the way of the new work.

And it's part of that failed roof area.

See, we were gonna leave it in place because it's twisted, you can't use it anymore.

But it's in the way of our new roof plane that we're establishing on the north half of the building.

So we got to get it out of the way.

We today we did talk about sidewalk closures when they need to do that, safety precautions.

So yeah, street.

If if there's any closures in the street, it would be east 23rd Street because the beam they have to take out is in the west part of the building, so it's kind of buried in the block, you know.

Um, we don't anticipate anything of French Street, and then like Joel said, we we did permit that if they need to close a sidewalk off, because they need to get up on that side of the building, you know, then we're okay, you can close it off just to a limited extent.

Because their their question, and this came up during bidding.

Their question was do we have to make those scaffold protectors on the sidewalk?

It's like uh no, because you don't want to build it for three days and then take it down, you know.

So we've got it where yeah, you can just block off the sidewalk during that short period that you need to do that if you need to do that.

So that isn't a route to collegiate, that's my only worry.

So if that does get blocked during the school time, making sure we have a safe route for the students who may be walking up.

If it comes to the states, right, I would think making sure this the students have an accessibility because that will be right in their walks up.

Yeah, so we'd want them to go on the east side of French when they are in the project area.

And we also stipulated you can't block off Sievenberger.

So they got a good membership.

We want to be nice with those guys.

Is there a possibility the same construction company will bid on phase one as well?

I I bet they will.

They didn't show interest.

They showed interest.

I bet they will.

We'll see how they do.

All right.

You know, before this project, they had like five bid projects that they didn't get.

They were higher than the little bidder.

They were just getting more and more hungry, so that's why you have bidding.

But we do have performance bonds and payment bonds in place for 100% of the project.

So if there's any problem with them, if they would fail in any way, then the city's protected with a hundred percent payment bonds.

Yeah, performance bonds.

And then we regulate how much they get paid, so we review their work.

We only pay them the amount of work that they do, and then we hold back 10% until they get to at least half the job, and then we hold back 5%.

But so you're always protected with more money than is built into the job all the way through.

Yeah, and that that's pretty common in the construction industry, so common that sometimes I forget to even explain that.

It clears the air a little bit.

Fills in the gap.

I'm gonna have no penalty for being late, then I'm gonna be late.

It's like school, right?

If you come in late and they don't say anything, you're gonna do it again.

Yeah, that's all.

Yeah.

This is average man's concern about it, that's all.

But I understand it since well explained.

I mean, um, I think everyone is open to the idea of new people new companies getting an opportunity to you know participate and seeing how they perform.

So I would like to know, you know, how how the project goes just because it's always nice to know that family-owned businesses are stepping up and you know, um, accessing these opportunities.

Um participating in the bidding process can be intimidating, especially because it's a lot of paperwork, more than likely.

And um a lot of people don't like to deal with that.

So I'm happy that someone is trying things.

I know this has been a need for quite some time.

Um I don't know if there were specific questions that we needed to ask, but I know that this is gonna be the time um to find out anything that we might have because this is an issue that's on the agenda tomorrow.

Um we're gonna be voting on the bond.

And if you guys or ladies have problems with anything, um now is the time to do that.

The total bond is what 52?

I think that's round two of our special guests that are coming.

We have uh another set of coming balls.

Yeah.

That's what many questions will be too.

So do we have any more questions for the roof for the tier one phase of um the development?

No, I just wanted uh say that uh phase one is my main concern.

Mine personally.

I am pro-public safety.

Uh all of us want to fire the truck not to break down on the ways of our house if we have that issue.

Uh so phase one uh sounds good to me.

Thank you.

I mean, I like the idea of them being able to operate in-house whenever they're maintening the machines and the building being tall enough for them to actually, you know, use um the machine uh the building to access because right now they're in a smaller building and they're not able to use some of the um space.

Yeah, they have to do it outside to do it outside to get the ladder.

Yeah, it's difficult.

So they don't have to in this new building.

Yep.

So that's one of the reasons why I've been in favor of it.

I know it's an expense to future taxpayers, but it's a need, especially with the current buildings uh infrastructure, you know, deteriorating under them.

That's kind of alarming as well.

What's the um I know of the Mars B the concerns was the uh flooring and stuff like that in the building?

What is that like at this new place?

Is that something that will it's all slab on grade?

There's no basement underneath, no lower level, so it's ideal.

Okay, yeah.

Do we have one of the best this issue?

Not in this phase.

Okay.

That's not an answer.

Well, we don't we're not doing the rest of the building right now, so you can do that.

We did bring an environmental consultant on.

They did a what's called a phase one analysis on the entire property, which we do have a report.

I think the report was shared with council.

It's about a 700-page report detailing the potential environmental uh issues with the site, and then we also had our consultant do assessment of the 20,000 square foot area that we're focusing on right now for the for the fire uh department, and their results came back actually uh pleasant minimum.

Well, well, essentially there were four items in the current phase one year fire department service garage part.

One is the light fixtures, metal halide, HID and fluorescent, they have to be disposed of a certain way.

There was um a little bit of mold in the mess west mezzanine, so we had to alert them.

Hey, you know, if it's bad enough, you gotta protect your workers.

Okay.

This these bidders own all this.

Um and then uh there was a little bit of um lead content in the metal panel siding and roofing.

Um but it wasn't the kind that alerts sends up alarms, but it was there.

So we shared that with the contractor, and the contractor owns appropriately removing the those materials.

And it's up to them to determine what their practices are because they answer to OSHA.

So I got asbestos.

Yeah, there wasn't any asbestos.

And we tested, I think, either 19 or 20 some different materials in that building just to be sure.

In phase one.

And section.

And what we don't know is a remainder of the building.

We did get a budget from our consultant what that would look like for the remainder if the project came to fruition.

And the proposal was around 35,000 for the analysis, environmental analysis, testing samples.

That's a high ceiling budget.

Like there they they said, you know, I could get as much as this depending on what we start finding.

But if we finish the whole project, we'll kind of know we talk in there.

Oh, we there's so many unanswered questions.

No way, no one.

So I think the city did a study early on.

Right, building.

So it we haven't done the study.

So we don't know how deep the hole is.

That's all.

Right.

Right.

That's do you know how close we are to finding the 35,000 to do the environmental study for the whole?

That would be initiated when there's an approval to proceed into the next phase.

So phase two?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, the the total site environmental phase one study was kind of a little bit in addition to what we're actually doing, that southeast corner.

So we had the environmental guys there, it was talked with the city, and we decided oh well have them do the phase one on the whole site.

Let's get it done now since they're there.

But uh further studies than that are a lot more involved, so you know we held back on that.

Any other questions?

Concerns.

No, I feel confident with their content.

Yeah.

I mean, the fact that they were able to save so much on the roof just by going with a lesser build um bidder.

I'm happy with them trying to save costs because this is gonna be a big expense for the city and the taxpayers.

We were fortunate enough to get the best.

So that's what we're getting.

Nice guys.

Thank you.

Okay, big good view.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much.

Be careful of the edge of the stage.

I don't want you not being able to ride your bikes.

That's all the bonds.

This that's not the part of the budget scripts.

This is the best form.

I think it just got finished.

How are you?

I have this shirt.

Okay.

Thank you very much.

Uh I don't know if everyone knows everyone.

I know I don't.

So with I'm no with this phone.

My name's Alicia Henry.

I work for PNC Capital Markets.

And I serve as your investment banker when you do bond issues.

So I'm only here when you need me, and it's a pleasure to be here and have this opportunity to have this setting for you guys to ask questions, and I would urge you to interrupt me if I don't speak clearly or if something isn't understandable, please.

Thank you.

Once again, I'm Tim Wacter with the Knox Law Firm sitting in for Tim Senate, and I can confirm that we have worked for a very long time with Leisha and been very happy with the partnership on these deals.

We're helpful on our end is the bond attorneys to help structure this to help get the local government unit debt act approvals in place.

But Alicia really does the line share of the work when putting the numbers together and get in the underwriting out.

Thank you, Tim.

Um my handout is on the projector, so I'm going to tell you when I'm turning a page so that the public can also follow along with our handout.

If you could flip past the cover to page one, since I haven't met a lot of you, I thought a good place to start would be please handouts.

That's okay.

Yeah, open my watch off for here.

We got one.

This is the city's existing debt.

Um this is a nice one-page summary, and I also have an appendix in the back of this presentation as a is a fall behind or leave behind that's uh greater detail than this.

But on the left-hand side, uh you have uh your bonds listed by series.

That's how we sell bonds, series of the calendar year it was sold.

Original par is a fancy word in bonds, it just means principal.

Outstanding balance is the amount of principals still owed on those individual bonds.

The final maturity is the last payment of each of those individual bond issues, and the call date, different from a bank loan.

Bond issues do offer the bond purchasers call protection.

We do monitor your bond issues for refinancing capabilities.

We can refinance in on and after those dates.

You'll see that your 2015 bonds are cullable this November.

It's something I keep in contact with Lisa about.

Those are very small amounts, and I don't foresee those producing any real savings.

Um the bulk of your bonds you'll see at the end.

Uh your larger bond issues are cullable in 2029, and there could be greater refinancing opportunities at that time.

As of today, the city has 53,570,000 in change of principal outstanding.

And for those of you who don't like numbers, there's a bar chart below that's color-coded by the series of bonds, and you'll be able to see through 2032.

Just to remind everyone that the city was able to prepay nearly $80 million worth of debt through fiscal year 32 from the Erie Waterworks lease prepayment.

And the city's debt goes out currently till 2039.

Just so I'm reading this for this means how much we're gonna pay on the side, right?

That year we pay this much.

Correct.

Okay, thank you.

You're very welcome.

Any questions on page one?

All right, then I will flip to page two.

And these are more uh bond legal laws that uh Knox and Tim make sure that we follow.

But this is a summary of what we're looking at.

The city is looking to complete certain capital improvement projects, most notably renovations to the Miller Brothers building.

Um tax exempt general obligation bonds provide a flexible cost-effective financing option.

The proposed structure of the series of 2025 bonds is to fund a project of 30 million dollars, which I understand would cover all three phases of the Miller Brothers project.

We look to wrap around the city's existing debt service to minimize the budgetary impact, and I'm going to show you options that involve capitalized interest where the city can borrow all or a portion of the interest during construction to help phase in the debt service.

You're legally permitted to capitalize interest during construction plus one year.

Everything that I'm discussing today assumes the city's current bond rating, which is single A, underlying with standard standard and poor's.

You have a stable outlook, and that was last reviewed in January 2025, so that is in good standing.

The funding of a bond issue typically takes 75 to 90 days, and federal tax law requires a commitment to spend 5% of the proceeds within six months, which by having Miller Brothers or having Roth Mars involved would meet that test, you would have to spend 85% of the bond proceeds in three years.

Confusing question, I guess.

You just told me that it's going to be 30 million dollars to do the project.

And when we had the boys in here, they couldn't give me a figure.

I was given the figure of 30 million.

Okay.

I'm just everybody was here when I asked the question, right?

Couldn't tell us.

Yeah.

That's worrisome.

Let's say it's not as much.

Could we spend that money also on streets too?

No.

No.

So what we're doing is a not to exceed amount right now, so we're getting an authorization on a not to exceed, and the final number will be uh met at closing.

Um you have to spend the money on the projects that you express specifically in the offering statement, which has already been prepared.

Just to clarify, so Roth Marsh only did phase one.

So they can only give you an amount for phase one.

Well, when Boswick did the initial cost estimate, it was 30 million dollars for the whole project.

And that is still inconsistent throughout the fund.

What happens if you have leftover money and you've used it all on the project?

You mean if the project's paid before the money is done?

Or before you before you've used all the money?

Let's say we used all the money, the project's done, or we haven't used the money.

We've we have some money left.

So the project came in at 25 million and you have five million dollars left over?

Right.

We can use that money to pay it off or take a look at some other options at that point for other capital projects that may be approved.

Um, but unless we're able to put that specifically in the offering statement in the specific of the ordinance, I would caution against spending the money on different projects.

How you spend the money affects the tax treatment that we're speaking about with this.

Thank you.

Alicia, can you explain non-bank qualified to me?

Yes, great question.

Non-bank qualified is a term specific to bond issues.

Um, 10 million dollars is a calendar year benefit.

Bank qualification allows banks to purchase the bonds and write off a portion of the interest.

Um since 2017, the uh jobs act and tax cuts and the corporate tax cuts.

Bank qualification has become less of a benefit because of the corporate tax payments have decreased.

So we used to focus um very particularly on trying to force bonds to being bank issue, but would we've seen bank qualified rates not trade any different than bank qualified rates right now.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Any further questions on page two page three four and five are all very similar, and I'm going to try to explain to you exactly where I'm talking so that I don't confuse you.

It's a busy page, I understand.

So page three, on the left-hand side, you have the light green heading, debt service schedules.

The first column is your existing debt service that carries over from the bar chart on page one.

Column two is the pro former or expected debt service payment on the proposed $30 million bond issue.

If you take the existing debt service and the proposed structure of the 2025 bonds, the light green column would be the new debt service budget for the city.

If you look on the right-hand side, the assumptions I'm using is a again a project size funded 30 million dollars to the city, closing somewhere in November.

All of your principal due dates are November 15, and assumes the city's uh A rating with the stable outlook.

And now, if I could take you back to the second column on the left-hand side, I want you to see follow the 1.57 million dollars all the way down to 2039.

And then you'll see the payment step up to 5.7 million.

That's what a wraparound is with bond issues from fiscal year 26 to 39.

That's essentially an interest-only loan.

The Department of Commun Community and Economic Development, as well as the Local Government Act, it requires me to sell bonds that are level and declining.

So I am allowed to wrap the debt service around when the existing debt service of the city is all paid off and start amortizing this bond.

What do we currently?

So this the one on the left.

So just I just want to make sure I'm following is what we're paying right now and what we will pay.

Correct.

And then this will be so right now that like we're paying like 1.6, almost almost 1.7.

Yes.

And 2023, that will go up to almost almost 11 million.

Correct.

Well, I hope I'm not dead by then.

Um they said that way too loud.

Yeah.

And now I I have to pray about that.

But I want you to see that the debt service on the left hand side, that's what I'm working with.

If I just add the 1.57 million dollars, everything that you're um seeing in the light green column is those two columns being added together.

So let me ask, you had said that we were able to refinance debt in 2029.

Uh will that affect how the wraparound works if we end up stretching out some of these um some of these balloons of the nine million dollar payments.

That's what I'm hoping that there'll be uh useful life left in the assets that were originally financed that I would be able to restructure and those payments that are looming in 2023 would be able to be refinanced and smooth out those bubbles.

Okay.

What what was originally financed?

Like what is the I know that was sorry 15 years.

Excuse me, you said that wasn't useful.

No, but let me see.

What things are we trying to remain useful?

I'm gonna look at I'm gonna probably have to have Knox.

If you go in the way, way back page nine, past all these pages in the lower right hand corner.

I told you I had a leave behind, which is the existing debt portfolio of the city with a little bit more notes.

Did you say sorry?

Page nine, I'm sorry.

If you look on page nine, each individual blue box is an individual bond issue.

And if you look down, probably three-quarters of the way down it says purpose.

The 2015 A was a refinancing.

The 2015 B was a refinancing and new money.

So we we could look into the 2015 B and see what that new money was.

But if you flip to page 10, the 17A's, the 19A's, those are all refinancings, and you can see how far back some of the the debt um traces back.

So for example, on page 10 for the 2017 A's, it's not likely I'd be able to stretch out something from 1998, but it is maybe more likely in the 2019 A, something done in 11, 12, 15, those we'd have to go back to Knox and dig through legal documents to see what was actually financed with those.

And then they would they don't let PNC just refinance, they would tell me what the longest maturity I would possibly be allowed to do legally to keep them tax exempt.

So that would be something obviously we would we could bring back to you.

And oftentimes the ordinance adopting the actual debt authorization uh lists what the maturity of the useful life of the asset is.

Sometimes we say in excess of 40 years, um depending on what it is.

Um but we'd have to go through each individual bond issue and make that determination.

Okay.

So if it was like what Councillor Nelson had said, like streets, like some of the headgun to use for that.

Probably not useful life left in probably not from 1998.

Right.

Okay, so you're getting an idea.

So that's what we would have to do to prepare for fiscal year 289.

Okay.

So my brain is just I just want to make sure.

So we don't fully know if we can.

So those balloon payments that we're asking about possibly could re get some usefulness out of things, but if it was used for the streets, probably not.

Correct.

It would also depend on what's going on in the market at that particular time, and you would want to deal with your financial advisors and PNC to try to do a determination as to whether it would be reasonable to do so if you took the money at six percent and bonds are trading at 10.

Maybe you don't want to do that.

You have to do a cash flow analysis versus the total investment that you're doing.

We don't advise on that ourselves.

Um but there's a lot of decisions that have to go into the question of whether you're going to do refunding.

Okay.

But please know that's something we would work very closely with you and your administration to help you with.

And if you want, I can I can start digging through the bond documents and get you a list of what the projects were that were refunded that are outstanding.

I mean, we have to vote on it tomorrow, so I don't unless you're pulling an all-nighter, I don't think that we'll get it.

What's the planning?

Um so big decisions will be made.

But yes, I would still like to know because the even this column will still be here to exist.

Correct.

Even if this one doesn't, this will work.

Would you see that all of us receive that, please?

Yes.

Okay.

Everybody back to page three.

Yep.

So what I'm going to do after page three, I'm going to show you two more options.

So I want you to focus now on the bond statistics.

The total budgetary impact of a $30 million bond issue with no capitalized interest, which means the full freight of this bond will hit your next budget year, is $1,575,000.

You'll see in fiscal year 27 at zero and fiscal year 28.

So this is how you fund the bond issue with no capitalized interest, but there is no phase and it does hit your budget immediately immediately.

The next two options I'm going to show you where it doesn't hit in all one year, it will hit in multiple years, and what the cost to do that is what the give and take is of being able to phase it in.

So did I go through this in a way that you were able to follow?

Because the next couple pages look exactly the same.

I think so.

Yes.

Okay, thank you so much.

Then if you could flip to page four, you'll see that this bond issue contemplates capitalized interest, which means the city is borrowing money to help pay interest during construction.

So column one is exactly the same.

Nothing changed.

Column two is slightly more expensive than the one million five seventy-five.

And the reason for that is column three, capitalized interest.

You're capitalizing interest to help through budget year 26 and 27.

And that is really the only difference between all the options I'm showing you in the very near-term budget.

So if I could take you to the bond statistics on page four, the budgetary impact in fiscal year 26 on this option is zero.

You're borrowing 1.7 million dollars to make all the interest payment on the new bond.

Fiscal year 27, we created two a two equal phase in 860,000, and fiscal year 28 is 160,000.

So this is what we call a two or three-year phase in, however, you look at it.

These are the examples, and I can work very closely with your administration on how to fit this best in your budget, but I'm showing you how flexible the capitalized interest is, and during construction, if you say to me, Alicia, this is what we can afford in our budget, I can capitalize interest down to the dollar to meet the increases.

But I do want to explain that there's a cost to that because I have to borrow that interest.

How much difference is one percent as far as uh interest?

Say the mark gets a much better probably about three.

I don't want to hold your feet to the fire.

I'm just well now.

If you want me to do math in my head and we're at five percent and we're at 1.7 million, I'm gonna say this is all mostly interest.

A whole percent is gonna take you down probably 3,400,000.

Because we are looking at um 20-year paper.

Right.

And then if I would take you to page five, this is what you call full capitalized interest, just so you can start seeing how the math works.

Page five again, the existing debt service is exactly the same.

The 2025 is slightly more expensive because we're now capitalizing interest for fiscal year 26 and 27.

And then if I take you to the bond statistics, the total budgetary impact is 1.77 million, no budgetary impact in fiscal year 26, no budgetary impact in fiscal year 27, and you're shifting all the budgetary impact to fiscal year 28.

But may ask the question, but I'm not sure who I'm asking it to.

Do we vote on these options sometime soon?

Like this isn't we're we're not voting on the various options tomorrow.

Do we vote on an option there?

No, you can vote on the you can give direction to me up until I sell bonds, which how you're gonna do that.

Which of these options?

But we as counsel do that, or does the administration I don't know.

I have not voted on bond ever before.

Do we ever make that decision, or do we just leave that decision out in the air?

We leave that decision out in the air.

Yeah.

So the decision that you're the ordinance that's on your um docket for tomorrow is a uh an ordinance to issue bonds in an amount not to exceed 54 million.

Yeah, 52 million 350,000 dollars.

Yeah, that's all it says.

I mean that's all I read.

The specifics of how you do it and these various options are um Alicia's trying to show you as to how it's gonna impact your total debt service.

So you can influence the administration in the manners in which you influence the administration, but all three of these options fit under the not to exceed when Tim and I were here a few weeks ago.

You build up the not to accede so that I can structure the bonds in the way that you want.

Right now I'm wrapping them.

I'm showing you how I can capitalize interest.

The not to exceed tomorrow will cover any of these options.

How you interact with the administration.

I'm not I'm not sure, and that's something you guys so you're saying that we can not vote on phases of the project based on their costs.

No, that's not what I was talking about.

That's that's not what's being discussed.

The the three options that we're being presented, we don't actually make a decision on that anyways.

We're just she's just offering us potential outcomes of what it could end up being like, but we're not gonna have any say over those three options.

Those aren't ours are those are not our options to choose from.

So we're voting on the total path.

Yeah, and it makes a big difference on our budget next month that we start looking at.

I mean, this one has would you go back to option one?

Well, actually, could we go to page six?

Yeah, I think that's a good thing.

The reason why I added the capitalized interest options weren't in my original package is because the bond issue is gonna close towards the end of the year, and it might I understand that fitting this into the budget is something could take more time than what you have to work with.

So page six shows you the three different options.

Option one is the new money financing, no capitalized interest, has the lowest total budgetary impact over the life of the bond, budgetary impact, but it will happen as soon as the next budget you're working on, 1 million 575.

Option two is a partial capitalized interest.

I can actually make this how flexible capitalized interest is.

I can take this number and I can make three equal phase-ins, or I can give you no budgetary impact in fiscal year 26 and even uh budgetary impacts in 27 and 28.

And option three, the most expensive uh capitalizes interest completely for two full budget years.

So you'll see the total cost in the budgetary impact in total.

There's 145,000 a year to do option two to change from one to two.

There's a cost to doing the capitalized interest and having that phased-in approach.

Is that what you were hoping to do?

Yeah, so so what I'm like when I mean because we're gonna be looking at the budget in two months, and like I'm I'm going to want to see option one, the cheaper option that costs more in the 2026 budget, though.

Like that's what I'm gonna want to see in the budget, uh, rather than to have a one year avoidance of taxes um to to look clean and with and kick the can down the road immediately when we're already seeing quite a deficit.

Like I'm gonna want to see option one in the twenty twenty-six budget when we see it in two months if as this is getting sorted out.

So I'm just I just want to make that clear if this bond passes that that's that's what we're looking for in the budget.

Our current like I know we're in the process of getting a new analysis from PFM but that might probably an administration question.

Do we like what is our capacity for debt service?

Like do we two point six for next year?

Off the top of my head.

Okay we just added.

260 million capacity.

Thanks.

Is that what you mean local the legal capacity, your debt capacity, or was it different kind of capacity?

Yeah, your debt capacity is actually your last three years of revenues, and you average them, and Lisa and I did a kind of a back of the envelope.

That averages to about 103 million dollars.

Then you multiply that number by 2.5% in every city in Pennsylvania lives by these same roles.

You take your last three years of revenues multiplied by 2.5%.

That gives you roughly 259 million.

You subtract the fifty-three million in change that you have outstanding, and that's your remaining debt capacity.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

That's some questions, but I think maybe we want to ask administration.

If we turn this bond down, are you telling me we don't have the money to do phase one to make sure that the Flood Department has has your thing?

You have I've been looking at buckets of money for six years now, and I'm not too sure what's in those buckets.

We're saving money for parks and recreation and repainting bike lines that shouldn't be there any uh I digress, I'm sorry.

I just want to make damn sure that uh I want the fire department to have phase one done.

Uh if you're telling us by fact that we don't have the money to do phase one without a bond issue, I'll accept that.

I still will not accept 30 million.

I'll accept at a maximum ten to cover cover that part because I think that's very, very important that the fire department have a place the house, what you're doing.

But these are these are figures, and I know you you guys are great.

I'm um I'm not I understand putting you in the middle, and it's not it's not fair to you because I know you could be home with your families as an example.

I just hope that I'm giving you all the information that I could think of that I you would want as council members to make the decision.

Right.

The I my brain is just really struggling wrapping around.

So in less than 10 years, we are gonna be expected to be paying 10 million, a little I mean almost 11 million back in less than 10 years.

And I have no idea where that's gonna come from as a city.

We we're struggling to pay our streets, we're struggling to keep up with the services that we offer.

We're going to double what we're gonna be asking taxpayers to help us pay back in.

And I fully agree we need phase one.

Fully agree.

We can't like it's not safe for the we need this to happen.

My my we're taking a huge like it's we're hoping that the markets trend in a way that we could refinance this, but we don't know.

And that's the the burden is going to fall on taxpayers.

It's gonna fall on taxpayers and services.

When you look at by 2023, we're doubling what we're gonna be paying back.

And so that has to come from somewhere.

That has to come from what we offer in the general fund.

And I mean that's the other part that I'm I'm struggling with.

This is we we need these we need these things to happen.

We have to we have to have fire, we have to have police.

This is this is a this is huge what we're gonna be asking of our residents that are that are hurting right now.

And that's not a that's just where we are.

No, I understand.

Now and just for the record though, too, that ten million dollar debt service is already there.

This item is not adding.

This number does not get you to that ten million dollars.

This is adding you know, a little more on top of that.

So the cliff that you're looking million?

This this isn't affecting our 10 million.

This is later.

The 10 million is here.

I know, but I will still be alive and in the city and being into taxes.

And so, and as I hope everyone else here will be, just for the record.

Yeah.

So but so it's existing is 9.2 in 2033, you're gonna be at 9.263.

Yes.

And then what is being suggested is that 1.7 be added to that.

But then there from 2020 or from 2033 to 2039, we're at 10 million, almost 11 million a year.

Correct.

But I just wanted to have it stated that it's not this issue that's adding 10 million dollars.

It's just a little bit on top of what's already.

But it'll extend that.

Yeah.

Right.

Knox law firm has done this before for the city of Erie.

Yes.

You haven't had any major problems with us paying things.

They've always made their payments.

Yeah.

I I am not aware of any defaults, correct?

A staple is a good grade to have.

Correct.

A teacher gives a student an A when they do well.

Is that how you have had a good working relationship with P and C Bank?

They are a stable bank to respect and do business with.

Correct.

I don't for me, this that's not at all in question at all.

I think I mean this makes sense.

I see it.

Where I where I keep coming back to and where I am stuck is the Miller Brother project in a whole, right?

We all agree, and I don't think there's any dispute around phase one.

But what we are saying is to take out this this entirety to pay for a project we don't fully know the full parameters around.

Once we vote forward, there is no going back.

Right?

It the Miller but I mean this whole project, so if it is out of the parameters, we don't have the complete environmental assessment.

If there's anything that is more than, we're locked in.

We're locked in.

Well past phase one.

We're going all the way through.

Tomorrow our vote is, it's it's that.

I think that's where my frustration is we don't fully know the scope, but tomorrow we lock in, and if we're if we lock in, we're in it for the long haul, whether it is a benefit fully all the way through or not a benefit.

And we are asking the taxpayers of the community to saddle this burden the whole way through, whether it's it completely makes sense past phase one, or if it doesn't make sense past phase one, we're in there.

On that note, um how much how much expense is it to issue three bonds and do it in each of the phases?

Like where where is the is there a benefit to doing this all in one lump sum?

Or is there uh a reasonable solution that we fund phase one, work on that and finish that, issue a new bond for phase two.

Um, you know, it's expected that we're looking at 25 basis point drop, maybe 50 if the job report comes down you know out poorly.

You know, there's a there's lots of reasons to think the interest rates might reduce uh in the future.

Like, is there is there any benefit to doing this all at now when we could be doing it in phases since the construction is not happening all now?

Sorry the only reason you would look to phases finance this all right now is to save on cost of issuance, but there are certain cost of issuance that are fixed that you'll pay multiple times, but there's also I do multiple projects that are broken up in phases as you implement the different phases.

So back of the envelope this with me a little bit.

Like what what kind of numbers are we talking about over the course of a $50 million issuance?

Can I just tell you I would say somewhere around $75,000?

Each time.

So if we break this into three phases, it'll cost the city $150,000 out of $50 million?

Correct.

Okay.

And the $10 million project fits within the parameters you're passing, the parameters.

Yeah, the attorney talk about that.

So what I was jumping to, but you got to before me, um, is we're doing a not to exceed tomorrow.

So before we close, if you say it's 10, we can do 10.

We can do 10.

But we can't.

That's the like we as council cannot say that, right?

Once we pass what's on the agenda tomorrow, we've already put it to exceed.

Then we've taken ourselves out of the picture.

No, we can amend it to 10, can't we?

Well, the document that you would be passing tomorrow is an ordinance that we would be submitting to the Department of Community and Economic Development for the purpose of having the debt authorization.

Once it is finalized and we actually issue the bonds, we will then communicate with the department to let them know what the actual issuance cost was so they can properly hit your debt schedule.

Um I don't think you could amend this ordinance after we apply.

We have to make a decision tomorrow morning.

And I will not I myself will not vote for that the big bond right now.

For 75,000, I'm willing to bet that we would save that 75,000 on the interest rate change a year from now, the way things are going.

Yeah.

That's all I'm saying.

A new administration is going to come in, Democrat or Republican.

Uh let them be wrestling with the rest of that.

My main concern right now again is the fire department in phase one.

And uh I would go with the 10 million, and I only speak for myself.

Uh I wish I knew our budget better, because I think there's probably money there.

Robin Peter Pay Paul.

Uh let me think for a second.

I know it's six thirty.

It's complicated.

How do you think we feel we don't really understand this completely?

And it's being thrown in our face twelve hours before we have the vote.

I mean, and this isn't your problem, but like we lost a federal appropriation this year of three million dollars towards.

And there's a bunch of things that we were moving forward under the assumption of that now we're moving under a very dramatic difference.

And it's still move all of the bond rating.

Well, this is what I'm thinking.

Excuse the sidebar.

Do you want to use the caucus room for a few minutes?

Yeah, could we have a just a brief second?

Yeah.

Before I go on the record with a crazy idea.

And the word that door open?

Well, I'm I've been known all along.

But if I just I mean, if if we move this through, I I which I've I'm not in favor of, I wouldn't where it stands right now.

What what goes away?

Because something has to go away because there's no projected revenue that's been presented.

Some there's just the money, we only have what we have.

Sorry.

I should have I should have had Snickers before I can.

Thank you.

Okay, so for 2026, we've still got um about five million in the uh water reserve, water prepayment fund.

Thank you.

So um going into the future.

I mean, that that's lasted a few years longer than we expected it to.

So, but I'm I'm gonna uh say that 26 would be the final year for that.

So something's going to have to happen after 26.

Um we we've gone six years without a tax increase.

Yeah.

That's not sustainable.

In that six years, inflation has soared.

And um all of our union contracts have increased every year.

It's it's unfathomable that you could keep not increasing your revenues, but the only reason we were able to do that was that we had that lease pre prepayment money.

We had 16 million.

And we had a couple of really fortunate years as far as um weather went, so we didn't have a lot of overtime, and we had some holes in our staff.

So we were two million under in staffing and benefits two years in a row.

So I I guess I'm saying that at some point we have to address incremental small um incremental increases in property tax every year.

ARP.

The ARP.

The ARP buckets.

Yeah.

I think there's in the neighborhood of 21 million left that hasn't been spent.

Um I would have one million all that's licensing projects or are they four million for parks?

There's police staffing.

Um I don't know the exact numbers off the top of my head, but we know we can't afford to do the fire department.

We don't have 10 million in there for phase one, no.

And what is the water reserve amount?

Uh it's uh let's see.

4 million 964.

Uh according to my mid-year projection, if we come out where I uh projected us, we'll have 4.9 million.

It's not the water reserve, it's the water pre-payment.

Yeah, it's the lease prepayment.

And just to clarify, too, on the reason why we're going for a million dollar lawn is because phase two is the emergency operation center for police and fire, which is also housed at our street and gates to be moved.

We could go out for bid for the final design of phase two this fall.

That was in the timeline that we presented to you at the last study session, but we can't do it without the funding.

So phase two is also slated to be about 10 million dollars.

So we we need to have the money to do the final design for phase two, and then to implement that part of the project.

The longer it takes, the more costs are gonna the construction costs are gonna increase.

So that's why we were looking at it as a package deal to get the whole thing done without having to keep stopping starting to outside of um Marsh Street.

Are there any other facilities that we're looking to condense?

Or we're gonna be maintaining all the existing facilities in addition to this facility.

The bomb squad and squat would also move into number brothers.

Yeah, in the number brothers.

Marsh would move in.

Where's the bomb squad currently?

They're in a separate board.

Okay.

So we essentially we would condense in like two spaces?

Yes.

Okay.

Welcome back.

Hello?

And then we're so once they're out of Marsh, Marsh is done.

No.

No.

We aren't we still have things in Marsh.

The idea would be to get out of Marsh prevention.

And then the zoo has the right person who is all that property.

Okay.

So would you guys sidebar with me to?

Yeah, I think it's more legal.

So um if you're not willing to issue the bond as it has been proposed, and you only want to issue a bond for one phase, then we would ask that you table this to allow us to redraft the documents to put it at the figure that you're comfortable with, and that you still move forward with the yearie sewer authorization tomorrow.

Yeah.

And then we can come back and we'll rework the numbers and come up with a different option.

If if the the 53 is not going to work and it's not going to pass, rather than have it voted down, uh, we'd rather come or the 52350.

We'd rather come back with a number that is going to pass.

And accomplishes the goal that council wants it to accomplish, whether it's phase one, phase one, and phase two.

The the number 53 as when Temp Santa was here contemplates me being able to structure the bond.

So what I would need from you guys is direction.

Do you want a not to exceed that only contemplates phase one, or do you want to not to exceed that contemplates phase one or two?

And I have to rework that not to exceed number to fit all the options, and that would give you comfort that only what you're voting on would get done.

And we had gone through the mental gymnastics of trying to figure out how we could structure phases into this current issue, but until and unless we know what the project's going to be, it's just not I don't think it's feasible.

I'll I'll put my cards on the table for the sake of you know understanding the phase one and phase two are coming on right one after another.

I'm comfortable with 25 million as a number, as long as we're not doing any capitalization of interest as well.

Those are the two things I'm concerned about.

I'd like the new money financing.

Now I voted against it every first two steps.

I voted in favor and we bought the space when I was president council.

Um but given the change of some of the climate uh of how we were looking to finance this, those are the spots where I that's that's the limits that I put on the table uh for my own vote, but you might get four votes without me on a different number.

But that's where I'm at.

If we're doing a I mean I would I would vote this down tomorrow.

Yeah.

As it currently stands.

I would vote for it because I've done the water bond before.

And sometimes you just have to take that leap of faith.

And no, no, she's saying the whole thing.

She wants all the time.

I would vote on all fifty that yeah.

And I'm with Kathy on that one.

I'm in favor of voting as is to put it on the agenda, but we're just two, so everybody has their vote to do what they need to do tomorrow morning.

Rather take any kind of a chance on it.

Maybe we should kind of informally agree to table this until we know more about what we're doing.

There's that a possibility where we table this this part tomorrow.

We have the three options at the next one where we could put forward like 25, 10 for the full.

And I also I think it's important the capitalization interest that we're not we there's there's a chance that we can really set up the budget to look beautiful in 2026 and absolutely blow stuff up in 2027, uh the way things are looking right now with the last five million that we have in the water prepayment fund, like there's a few things we could do to balance some things out that could that would leave us in a really big hole.

So I'm I'm very particular that I don't want to see the capitalization interest up front.

Dr.

Titus, in my in my opinion, um I would prefer not to leave here tonight without those parameters figured out so that we can put this together one time.

I mean if you remember at the last city cock caucus meeting, I was at on this particular thing.

I said if we're gonna vote it down, let me know today, you know, two months ago, because you know, Alicia and our office, we've there's significant costs that have been incurred to put all of this together.

Um so I would like to have that parameters this evening so that we know what to put together for you.

For me, and and I know we all have to vote our conscience on this.

I I just want to know then what is projected that we cut out of the budget.

And that's not a you guys can't make that one.

What we are what we are putting, we don't have the money to pay for this.

So what are we willing to cut?

Like we have to ask ourselves that like what are we cutting out of the budget?

Race taxes that won't cover it.

It can always cover it.

I don't want it to.

Up to 30 mils.

So the the projected debt service is on 53 or 52, 350.

Um if you end only end up doing 30 of that, the debt service isn't gonna be that much.

But we I where I'm is we're cut out of that part.

We can't decide it anymore.

So once so we were elected to do a certain part, and then once we opt ourselves out of any power control in that capacity, we're out of that power control.

Like so that's where If we table it, maybe we can find out exactly what 21 million in art money is doing and how important that is being done as to how important it is to get something going here with with our phase.

Well, I know for a fact that I'm not gonna be in favor of moving any of the park and recreation ARP money.

We already moved a million out of that bucket.

There used to be five, so I'm not in favor of touching that for anything other than parks and recreation.

I agree with Jasmine with parks and recreation.

That's the only thing the city gets.

But I also we have not raised taxes, and you can't just hold the line forever.

You have to do it little by little by little.

Then you couldn't get it.

It's got to be lot by lot by lot if we go the way we're going right now.

And I'm with you on that, that's why the capitalization part is important.

Those three options.

That's why that's important.

That's a half a mil difference in taxes.

What do you need from us, Esquire?

Uh sir.

I have two yeses, one no, and a request to table to reconvene at another date.

There's still two members from whom I don't know which way you're going to go.

That would be helpful.

Mell and Bell.

What do you wait?

What do you have that down for?

I didn't have him down yet.

He's a he's a table.

Yeah, but did you want did you want us to have a number?

Did you want us to have a number at a table?

No for the 30 million.

You're you're you're a no for the big the big shot.

Okay.

Right now.

Yeah.

Got it.

Do you have a number that you're yes at?

I want phase one done for Lenny for the flower guys.

I would like to.

See, and that's that's my 10 turn.

10.

Phase one.

I'm beyond.

Yeah, I don't care how the hell you get it.

I'd be phase one.

You tell me how we get figs.

I think before you settle on a number, there's more things to talk about before you tell him a number.

It's a plan.

You were just no across the board.

I'm not a no across the board.

I'm a no on the current.

Because there's a lot of money.

Yes, two phases.

I would go.

I would go ahead and do that.

It just depends on what we do here.

Definitely phase one.

Yeah.

We have a request out for phase two of the amount of four million dollars.

So if we get that funding, we can't move forward with phase two.

Well, who is that funding?

That's three million corporations and one state.

And how but I'm just I'm very fr I'm frustrated.

I feel like that we again got kind of backed into a corner here without the full plan.

Um and I feel like that this is again being and I know this is there's a lot of federal things that happened.

There's monies that were lost here, and I know this is a project that are working.

But this is what we presented at the last study session.

I can resend out the Powell Fly, but it had all the timelines, the grants, all the different phases.

The bond wasn't funded, like that wasn't discussed.

What's that?

This like the funding model has shifted quite a bit very rapidly.

We we've always said that we may have to move a little bit more on this year together.

But not for the entirety.

That's never been the case.

And and that that's the part that's the part that you have me with the brakes on.

I we always are five million in grants.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, like, yeah, we use the five million grants in the first phase.

It's signed to phase two.

Well, what's your best advice on the whole thing or three phases?

We want to be here.

I want to know.

I just mentioned this to Tim.

If you do have more presentations tonight, and this presentation is in the middle of other presentations.

Tim and I are coming back tomorrow morning at 8.30.

Would it be helpful for you guys to hear the rest of your presentations and then maybe answer Tim's question tomorrow morning at Caucus?

Yeah.

And if you needed us to be here before 8 30 and there was a time.

I couldn't legally do that because we have enough.

So you advertise your physics.

That's true.

Okay.

So we have to do it 8:30.

We have to talk to you during the meetings and stuff.

Three of us at a time.

It seems like a lot of people.

Seems like the lot of the questions you have we cannot answer.

Yeah, exactly.

But you've opened up our options.

We we're we're willing to.

I mean, you put up the hoop and we'll figure out how to jump through it.

You tell us phase one, phase two.

You tell us what the resolution you want it to look like.

That council would approve, and I have to fit the numbers.

I want you to know if you want me to fund a 20 million dollar project, the not to exceed will still likely be 30 million dollars because of how you have to do not to exceeds, but we can put verbiage in the ordinance.

That will give you comfort that PNC can't fund a project larger than X, and that X can be whatever number you say it will be.

I need that number to rerun the schedules, create a new not to exceed number.

Um so I think we've laid a lot on you, and I apologize, but I hope that we're giving you options that would get whatever is the majority wants to get done.

I have found your voice.

You'd be incredibly helpful.

You did a great job.

Chief, would you come up please?

Thanks.

At least what's what's the timeline on that process to run new numbers?

If you give me you have to tell me this is how much the city would be willing to borrow.

If you say it's two phases, then you have to go on the best number that you have, whether it's 10 or 20 million, and then I have to run a bunch of schedules that literally would take me an afternoon.

So it would be on the next agenda.

It could be on the next agenda as long as I get the numbers.

Do you have to amend the ad?

I honestly don't remember what's in the ad right now.

We'd I'd have to take a look at the ad.

Um, and then I may have to rerun it.

Yeah, when is the next uh voting?

September 17th, I think is the next Wednesday.

September 17th, and if we go back, if you had to do an ad, when would you want it?

And if I go back.

September 17 is a Wednesday.

I'd like to run it on Friday, ideally.

Friday the 11th.

That's a Thursday.

12th.

Okay.

And I'm yeah.

All I would ask is that you contemplate the sewer authorities.

Um I don't think that one has to be.

But what I want you to know is in the reason why the sewer has two resolutions is because your debt is so closely tied.

If you do a resolution, if you don't do a bond issue, it affects what they're not to exceed amount, is because your debt is overlapping.

So if you can vote tomorrow on the correct sewer resolution that Tim will add advice to, we can contemplate what you'd like to do for the 17th meeting.

So the sewer revenue uh ordinance here to for tomorrow would be for the 68,460,000.

But if we were to put through this entire one, we would actually have to drop that down.

Then these then the sewer revenue uh bond would be for 59 million seven hundred thousand.

Okay, and we're prepared either way.

Okay.

So if we don't move forward on our end, would it then go to their max?

It would go to the 68, yes.

Yeah.

Which would then change our numbers anyway.

I would like to hear the chief's position.

Yes.

Does anybody know if we table this and they redo it on the 17th?

Is that the second reading, or are we going back to the first second reading?

That's why we're doing it that way.

Versus restarting.

Yeah, that'll be the second one.

So I doesn't make a difference if it's not gonna pass, and we don't know that.

I I don't know that right now.

And and they don't know if it's gonna pass.

Um we have to keep moving.

We don't have time is as it is if you table it, we have just set back everything to by two weeks, two to four weeks because of advertising bids and all that stuff.

And before hopefully before we leave here tonight, you have a number, and I think that we have a lot more informate information to give you before you pick that number.

Why'd you wait till allow, gee?

I I have asked all I asked all of you if you have any questions.

If you want to see the place, anything you need, I've said call me.

So I you know, I have reached out to everyone.

But we just got this one tonight.

So like we only had part of like we've got to.

Well, that's no, and I'm not blaming anyone.

But I think like to shift it all on to council, like we'll I think we can only ask the questions with the information we're provided.

So if we don't have the full package, we we don't even know what we have to ask yet.

And that's where I've been stuck.

But Adam said October 2, the bids are due on phase one.

And that will get backed up because if there is no money to pay for that, then there's no sense in going out to bid for it.

Well, I mean, I you know you guys have said you will fund phase one no matter what, but I think you have to hear the rest of it and consider more than just phase.

Maybe you don't apparently there's big uh decisions or you know, thoughts against the entire project.

But if you're gonna scale it back, I think you need to hear the whole the phases and the importance and how it all ties in.

But also with your two readings, it sounds like to me that you could actually pass this on the first reading tomorrow.

Where to pass the first one.

You already passed the first one, yeah.

Yeah, last week.

Never mind and Jasmine and I believe in this, right?

Public safety is number one.

I mean, I hate to say what's on the news, but you know, they just had a thing where 57 shots were fired in Chicago or over Labor Day weekend.

Eight people died.

And now the federal people are going into Chicago.

Public safety, fire and police are a component of living calmly in your neighborhood feeling safe.

That project is a major role in providing safety, not just for the central neighborhood, but extending out through our entire community.

It's expensive.

And I do have the feeling that there's going to be that it's a federal issue, so they're going to give us grant money for this along the way.

That's how firmly I believe in this.

So remind us when things go out to bid, the first phase is already out to bid, second phase you're looking to put out the bid in November.

When would the third phase go out to bid?

Well, the first phase of phase one is done.

That's the million for the roof.

So the second phase of phase one is going to go out October.

Well, the bids will be open on October 2nd.

Okay.

Then phase two of the entire project.

If we have a bond, then we have the money, we'll be go out for a uh RFP for the architects to start with the design process of phase two.

That until we uh get the federal money in the spring, we can't move forward with the project, but we are allowed to design it.

And that saves us time.

So we would start the design phase on that.

Okay.

Do you know when phase three would go out to design or anything like that?

No.

I I don't know that.

Okay.

Is that something anyone else knows?

Probably next year.

Okay.

Tim, you already have 68 on that sewer.

Was that contemplating just other one not going?

It's easier to reduce it.

Okay.

During the meeting than it would be to increase it.

Okay.

So I I agree with him.

Different reasons.

He has different reasons than I do.

But we need to figure this out tonight and tomorrow.

So we're talking about trying to throw out an option.

We're talking about a $30 million project.

And Chucky would read $25 million with no new money.

With no capital.

Yeah, no capitalization interest.

That doesn't say no.

That's an M for million.

I'm sorry.

My handwriting.

Yeah, that would cover the first two phases, it sounds like with some cushion.

With a little bit of cushion.

And then is there enough support for that going around the table?

Phase one and phase two.

You can do phase three next year.

Yeah, that's leave it up the next year.

Let it be next year's problem.

It's not going to go out to bid till next year.

You can issue a new a new bond next year for it.

I mean, just to help you to get to a number.

I don't care what the number is.

You know, but you know, if you if you're contemplating phase one and then you're quickly gonna go out for an RP for phase two, but you're not gonna go out for the RFP for phase two until unless you have the money in place and you need that before you can even consider phase three, then there's some art behind what he's saying in terms of phase one and phase two funding it now to allowing those to occur, and then you can figure out phase three next year.

Well, if we had a compromise, I would go to the compromise of what you're saying.

For capital funds.

It's amazing when you think about taking it some of that money out for phase one of we did.

That's what it's it's for the roof.

That's the roof.

Yeah, we're gonna do that.

That money that money from the ARP interest is paying for the roof.

We need that money over to that.

Then why are we talking about it now?

That's just the roof.

What we're talking about now is that we're going to be able to do we voted to move it into the capital fund.

Right.

And now it's being expended from the capital fund.

Okay.

Um yeah, I mean I so but you would still need two weeks to put that together.

I mean, it wouldn't be ready for tomorrow morning.

Checks and not to exceed that schedules to put together and the like.

Yeah.

But I don't think it will hold you up.

Lisa and I've already been working as if a bond issue was going to be done.

If this gives everybody more comfort and it meets all the goals.

And it passes on the 17th.

I will still send I can send the rating package on the 18th.

Have the rating back in a month and still sell bonds by the end of October.

That should accomplish whatever goals that the city wants to accomplish.

If the two weeks is essential to getting this exactly right.

Are the favorable nods that they understand her or that uh yeah?

Please tell me if what I'm saying isn't what if I haven't answered or given you enough to maybe.

I would request the two weeks that we table to get the this set of numbers.

I'm more comfortable moving in that direction where we are right now.

I will be in the adamant no tomorrow.

Yeah.

But if we could table that changes the discussion for me, it in my understanding of it.

And then have it on the agenda at the 75 million for 70.

They're they're asking you to vote, yes, that you're going to because they're all their work right now is nothing, and then they're gonna do more work, and then on the 17th, you have more questions.

I understand.

I understand they're not gonna be happy with that.

Well, no, I'm I'm I'm happy.

I mean I think they are actually happy, they're getting paid to just take the question.

Well no, I've I don't want to do this in a manner you don't want to do this.

I want this to look like what you want it to look like.

And this is for the seven of you to discuss, and we will be back here in the morning, and you can tell us what you want the next Knox to exceed to accomplish for you.

You couldn't just change it to 25 for tomorrow.

I don't I think that structurally changes the ordinance.

I don't know that you could a different number.

Um he's gonna have to charge us a 50% higher billable, but uh it'll be an all-nighter.

We get paid of course.

Thank you.

Uh we could we could change the not to exceed the twenty-five.

I you can't change the not to exceed to twenty-five if you want me to be able to sell twenty-five.

Right.

That's right.

We're not gonna be able to do that until we do the not too.

You could write in there that the bond issue can't exceed a number and give them the protection, but I can't please know that if you tell me to do twenty-five, the number on the front cover will never be twenty-five because I'm not selling the bonds tomorrow, and bonds sell at a premium or a discount, and I need room to structure the bonds when I actually sell them.

But what Knox can do is write in the resolution that PNC cannot issue more than blank amount in principle.

Or blank amount in project dollars.

He could write that in there.

You'd have to pass the resolution exactly as it looks, knowing that any bond issue under 30 million will fit in this box I've created.

Let me really throw a range into this.

I'm gonna vote for the 30.

What the hell is the difference?

If we're gonna go for 25, might as well go for 30.

I'm gonna be dead by the time we've got to worry about paying it back anyway.

And we were bouncing around like crazy.

There, I'm okay.

Well just I I guess you know what I'm saying?

Five million at the point.

When Kathy asked the question, what if we don't spend it all?

Then you can use it to make the payments or some other we're not gonna issue 52 million.

Correct million.

But that was at 30.

That was at 30.

When we're looking at 30.

She asked the question, you said you could use extra to make payments or some other approved project.

So to Ed's point, if we're gonna do 25 to do 30.

But that's still not the keep it down on the agenda to our own.

So phase one and phase two, then you just have more left over.

Right.

Well, you the issue here is that you you don't have the ability to impact what is it sounds like the city council doesn't have the ability to say to the administration.

Don't exceed this.

Yes.

I can write into the ordinance that there would be no more than 30 million dollars worth of project monies issued.

Yeah, which would still require a tabling of tomorrow and that coming back to the room.

I'm gonna put that in for tomorrow.

I can go back to the office and write that up and get a new one out.

Changing it from 54 to 30?

No, it will still say 54.

Okay.

But I will put a provision in there that not more than 30 million dollars is issued.

So I would I was saying less than that, because I was because that does all three phases.

I'm I'm saying the first two phases.

So I would I would be looking at a lower number still than 30.

May I ask my council colleagues?

If we could just let us know, maybe it would pass with the full 52, the way it is written currently, the way it was voted on in the resolution, or the ordinance, or whatever, last week, or the last time we met.

The last time we met.

This is the second vote.

Passed three to two last time.

Okay.

So I'm in favor of the I'm in favor of uh three phases.

So you would be with Jasmine and myself for a third.

We do three phases.

No, uh explain.

I think Chuck is so not the full 50 million right off the bat, like breaking it down into a smaller number.

You're in favor of how it's written or different.

30.

These three issues.

So these there's four.

Four for thirty games over.

One and two.

Yeah, I'm I I'm saying one and two.

I'm I'm that's my that's my middle spot.

He's one and two.

I'm at least one, but I'm a no on tomorrow how it's written.

Yeah.

So right now we're one two three on the ordinance.

That's thirty million times fifty-four.

So when I said twenty-five, I'm I'm saying that's two.

I understand that it has to be above what the twenty is.

Like whatever the number it has to be for the two phases is twenty million, whatever number it has to be above that, looks like it's forty percent higher or something like that.

You know, like that that's what I'm looking at.

No, but the next resolution would have more concrete language in there to make sure that what you're telling us is actually what would be accomplished.

So my my goal would be two phases and that the that there wouldn't be any capitalization of interest.

I like the um I like the capitalization of the interests um that you're suggested for phase two.

I guess for me, the I don't really have the uh issue with going and voting on phase three, um, just because it's gonna need to get done.

I'm not quite sure how Mo feels about voting on phase three.

Um I don't know if he wants to vote just the one to two, like how everybody else does, but I mean three next year.

And that's the thing is that we're gonna be here next year.

So you're saying all at once, some people saying do it like this, but it sounds like everybody wants the whole thing.

It's just how it's about one more doing good point.

Well, that's what that's what we're saying.

Doesn't sound like you one and don't do two and three, don't just leave it unfinished.

This sounds like you know that's what I'm hearing.

So you're for the 30?

One and two, I would be we're still gonna do three.

Yeah, later.

I'm not gonna leave it on finished, that would be silly.

That's five votes for for 30 then.

So we put this for nothing.

Yeah, so well, for the two phases.

That's the it's 530 30 million, supposed to wrap it all up, right?

Mayor.

30 million is it's sure how to pay for it is we will.

So it'd be like a 20 million dollar leading to uh 36 million dollar up to generally actually in order to have actual numbers tomorrow.

We wouldn't have actually tomorrow tomorrow.

Um so it sounds like you're all the the 52 to 350 is the not to exceed uh about a 30 million dollar project.

And it gives Alicia the wiggle room she needs to be able to sell and pass the bonds.

You're not going to see 52 million 350,000 worth of bond debt.

I'd love it if you would.

No, I'm kidding.

You're not going to see that.

If if you're saying now we'll agree to spend up to 30 million dollars, then this is your ordinance.

Yeah.

Because it's saying because that's that's the amount you need for the not to exceed.

If you're saying we want to go in for 20, then we gotta go back and we redo the numbers.

Or I can write a revision of this ordinance which specifically says that PNC is only authorized to fund up to 20 million dollars of project monies.

And then we can go forward with what we have tomorrow.

But it depends on where that number is.

Yeah, 20 million dollars a project is where my number is.

I think I thought you said 30 million.

That's because of the the cushion that gets built into it of the not to exceed.

20 million dollars projects covers the first two phases.

Yeah, let's not focus too much on the not to exceed number because I'd have to plug that into a formula.

I think if you give us guidance on what you want this resolution to fund, I'll make that number fit what you tell me.

Yeah.

So two phases is what I've done.

If a $52 million not to exceed was a $30 million, then a $20 million not to exceed is still going to be somewhere in the high 30s, close to 40.

So just it was mentioned before.

It's not gonna lower the payment all that much.

No.

It doesn't change the debt service all that much.

I don't think that's true.

Probably cost like three or four firefighters salary.

If you take this top number and you divide it by three, that's extensively what ten million dollars is, and then if you multiply it by two, that 1.57 million will probably go down to 1.1.

Yeah.

600,000.

So I don't want to talk in terms of what people think are relative.

That's not fair.

I I guess what people it's only two firefighters need to understand is that whatever amount you're going to get the bond for, you're going to have to have wiggle room for whatever interest and refinancing and everything you're gonna have to do later.

Like I think that that's where we have to understand that the bond that we're approving isn't gonna be the exact money that the city's gonna get for whatever the project is because you still need room, right?

But I think what Tim said is in the next version of the resolution, he will write that in there specifically that says PNC cannot fund projects in excess.

In excess of 20 million dollars, or whatever you tell me that number is, and then I'll build the not to exceed, but written with in the document that is the protection you'll get that I can't legally do that.

And that's what the bond being what number?

Whatever you tell me.

Okay.

Whatever you're comfortable funding.

I'm comfortable with 30.

Mel year and 30?

Yeah.

Isn't that what we're at to for tomorrow?

Not though we've at the original.

Each room or two.

We haven't discussed phase three a lot.

There's a lot of uh police stuff in phase three, the public works in phase three.

Um I'm not trying to say that fire is more important.

I don't care.

But after phase two, fire is pretty much out of it.

That's police and public works.

So you're cool with this plan.

I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding.

If if you're if you're looking at my understanding, if you're looking at 30 is a good number, then the ordinance they have in front of you is it because the 52 is a fictitious number that gives her room to work.

So then we're okay with the way it is.

Because you're going to just do the third.

I I can put a project limitation of 30 million dollars in the ordinance.

And we can vote on this tomorrow.

Yes.

If we get consent of counsel that this is I would be a no on that, but if you have four votes, you have four votes.

Oh, like the the two phases.

Yeah.

Two phases.

So what number is that?

That's 20.

Plus the room that you have to cushion in.

I don't know what the hell's going on anymore.

How many phases do you want to do?

They're each 10 million.

We got the administration saying there's no money there, so we can't do anything.

And then we're saying, okay, let's be smart about spending more money.

And now we're gonna okay 30.

If it's the will of the council, let it be.

But I sure think it's foolhardy.

I still think there's money in in our budget upstairs.

Money I could have taken out of the last couple budgets and wouldn't able to do it.

But it's uh money moves around real well.

And I just uh I sat down here, I said my main concern was getting the fire situated in that place.

But the more uh people talk uh Rocky kind of money to waters with his 25 million thing, which made it ridiculous because you're gonna do you're gonna do 25, you might as well do 30.

It's up to you guys.

Did I hear?

Is there a four on the on the floor for that for the 30?

There's three on the floor for 30.

Who are three?

Mel, Jasmine, and myself.

Then I gotta be the fourth when you get the damn thing done.

Cool.

So we'll do tomorrow.

Okay, so we're gonna run the ordinance as is with a new provision indicating that they're uh uh project ethics.

Project funds to be issued is not to receive 30 money.

Yes.

I just sorry you guys had to go through the game.

No, this is votes.

This is why they're lawyers.

I'm oh your lawyer tag you're the numbers girl.

Numbers are important.

Is this restroom 12 years?

Is there any I I feel that a lot of people came here.

Please, public works.

Is there I mean, did you guys have anything you want to come up and say to you know talk about this?

No.

Because it's just not me.

It's just in that case, have a good evening.