Exactly.

That's true.

Okay.

Well you know.

I appreciate it.

Of course.

No, it's not.

It is a lot of things.

So they want to go there.

You know what I mean?

Oh, I've now talked about it.

I feel bad for the others.

Check, check, check.

Can you hear that, Abby?

Yes, thank you.

I can't hear you anymore.

Yeah.

What I can do is like the house and some possible.

Good evening, folks.

It's six o'clock.

Welcome to the Fort Smith Board of Directors' study session meeting for uh Tuesday, September the ninth here at the Blue Lion.

Our first item of business is a discussion regarding a proposal from a third party nonprofit to facilitate an entertainment fund for attracting and promoting entertainment at the Fort Smith Convention Center slash Arc Best Performing Arts Center.

This was placed on our agenda back at the July twenty second regular meeting.

So at this point I'm gonna introduce Mr.

Brandon Goldsmith on behalf of uh River Valley Film Society and Border Town Live.

Dr.

Goldsmith, thanks for joining us.

Glad to be here.

We're providing people with entertainment where they can providing people with entertainment where they can see things that they've may not have never seen before in the Fort Smith area.

And that's the whole idea by bringing these national tours with professionals so people can see what a professional level show looks like.

We want everyone's imagination to grow so that we can build the creative economy here in the River Valley.

This has been a year and a half in the making, and in order to bring Bordertown Live, put Border Town Live together.

If you want to do anything that's worth doing, it's gonna take time.

But guess what?

It's happening now.

We got a room full of kids enjoying Sesame Street Live, and it's just a fabulous thing because the whole idea to do this is to bring high quality entertainment to the River Valley.

Well, thank you very much for uh having me here today.

Um along with me today, I have uh Lynn Watson, who is the president of the River Valley Uh Film Society, uh Levon Morton, who kind of worked with me kind of on the inception of this project, and then uh we have um over uh Zoom, we have uh Abby Cox.

So she's here in case y'all have any questions revo regarding like fundraising and those kind of things, and as y'all know, she's like the most bubbly person you'll ever meet.

Ms.

Dox, thanks for joining us.

All right, so what we're talking about here is trying to create a self-sustaining entertainment series.

And so um I have uh, if y'all see in in the presentation agenda we gave you, had three basically requests that we're I'm gonna walk through here real quick uh for y'all.

So the first one is just basically technical.

Um because entertainment fund already exists in the budget.

What we're just looking for is to make the take the entertainment fund uh from under the convention center and create its own budget line.

And the reasoning behind this is uh we're going back to the the inception of this project with actually September, we're in our two year anniversary of us kind of coming up with this idea.

Um we came up with this idea, uh, Levon and I, and then we brought in Randy Johnson from the OVG.

And we're like, hey, we'd like to do some shows, and we need to do them at the convention center.

So we end up having a meeting with uh Carl.

And in that meeting, we're like, hey, we have these ideas.

Randy was like, guess what?

Guess how we can help instead of just being a venue, we can also help you with the booking of the shows.

We said, that's great.

Uh what kind of shows can you get?

So we set up a second meeting, and in that second meeting, he had some possible shows that we could possibly bring.

And at that time, we were starting to move forward, so the city issued the LOI.

And you'll see here the LOI that uh the city issued in on December 6th.

Uh in this collaborative effort, the city of Fort Smith will provide the necessary financial support while the River Valley Film Society will oversee the logistical and operational aspects of acquiring and hosting Broadway shows.

We believe this collaboration will not only bring new cultural experiences to our residents, but also contribute positively to local economy.

So this technical move of moving it from under the supplemental of the convention center to its own budget line is kind of falling in line with the original intent of um the um of the of the of the Border Town Live.

All right, the second one is uh basically this is a request to kind of get the uh if y'all are in agreement with this to kind of get the staff together to create a uh what an agreement might look like between the River Valley Film Society and the city.

So the whole idea is this the funds stay with the city.

We're not we're not taking any funds.

And then the Film Society would document and invoice the city for all the related expenses.

And then the profits and everything from the show would go back into that fund.

So then it becomes kind of a uh a fund that that you know keeps keeps uh the money going in and out from that one fund.

And then um we've already talked to Andy, and he's already kind of provided our accountant with the chart of accounts.

That way we can make sure that we match up with the way the city does their funding so that the the Film Society has that.

So the question is why would you want to use the River Valley Film Society for this?

So we're able to bring in corporate foundation 501 sponsorships.

So when we did Sesame Street Live, we were able to get a $15,000 sponsorship.

So it's not only are we asking for money, but we're actually putting money back into these shows.

So 10,000 of that donation went to fund 200 tickets for the boys and girls club family.

So the whole idea is to make these shows to where they are going with the community.

And so we are able to get those sponsorships, and then what we're doing is we're directing those sponsorships to buy tickets.

So we're actually paying for the shows through our sponsorship.

So we're we're you know, that's our way of of of giving back.

And then 5,000 of that went right directly to marketing.

So we're also helping with the marketing and with the cost of the shows.

Next is individual donors, which everyone knows.

People love to be involved in stuff.

And uh where a lot of individual donations come out is in the program, and we've been in talks with the symphony.

So if we get this project going, our whole idea is to have a um basically every year have a season that goes from around uh September or October all the way to um to about May, right?

And so we have a whole season that we run every year and every year we have a season, we sell season tickets, we do all those things, we're talking to the symphony.

They've had to step away from having an actual hold-in-your-hand program because of the expense.

So if we were able to do a season, we would combine with the symphony in order to cut cost on both sides and actually have a program that is kind of combined and do cross-promotional aspects and work with the symphony on um on individual donors.

Another important part, and why we have the lovely Abby Cox here, is we can get grants.

So we've already done some research to identify some areas where we can get grants for certain things in certain shows.

So right now we have uh cat in the hat uh for April uh oh, sorry, it says 25.

That should be 2026.

So next April we have uh cat in the hat.

What we can do is we can apply for grants right now.

And those grants would pay for to bring in kids from the schools so we could pack out the entire uh afternoon show with grants, and um, and then that gives us more opportunity to partnership because that's one of the things that we love to do is to partner with all the different other nonprofits.

Um next leads into our three-year sustainability plan.

So the whole idea behind the sustainability is basically through earned income, so the shows will make some profits, but then we're gonna build, so the reason why we're doing three years because we have to build a subscription ticket subscriptions, right?

So it's not something all of a sudden you put it out there and you have 200 people that I'm subscribing for tickets.

It's a thing that you build over time.

And if we build a model where we have ticket subscriptions plus merchandise sales, plus the grants, plus the sponsorships, plus the donor support, we believe over a three-year period we can completely be stealth-funded, and that's the whole idea, right?

We don't want we don't want to be uh having uh having to use your funds all the time.

Uh and I'm gonna had a conversation with uh Lee uh about this, and he gave me what probably the best quote ever about if we were gonna possibly do these shows, what they should look like.

Um he said, if we're gonna use city funds, it needs to be community focused, nonprofits, churches, and more, and most importantly, the shows must be affordable.

So one of the things that we did for affordability is this is a preliminary kind of pricing study that we put together because we all know Fort Smith is not like any other town where we do stuff.

There's certain price points that work in Fort Smith.

Just to give you an idea, I just had the Fort Smith International Film Festival.

It lowered the ticket price from the year before, and I made more money because I hit the price point for Fort Smith.

And so what this is is we're looking at what is the range that the families in Fort Smith, because we're gonna do this, we need to have something that the families in Fort Smith can afford, right?

So these ticket prices are established when a show is booked.

Same as uh season tickets and like sponsor holds, there's kind of part of the show pro uh uh contract.

So one of the things that we need is uh a transparent cooperative uh booking process.

All right, so this uh other request is part of the agreement between us and the convention center.

Uh so one of the things that that we wanted to do is mirror the symphony contract because they have a contract with the city, so all shows at the convention center.

Uh also uh, as we did before, having uh OVG help us with booking shows.

But what we want is we want to create a transparent process in the booking of these shows.

So we have a committee that basically to where it consists of OVG, the City of Fort Smith, and River Valley Film Society, so we have full transparency on who's one picking and and getting these shows.

So I'm gonna go ahead and move forward.

Oops, there we go.

This is a timeline that's in the thing of basically what happened.

We had only 39 days to kind of launch Alt on Border Town Live and do two shows.

But I want to show you here the why we have the need for transparency.

So we created an MOU.

So Jeff, when we started this, said, hey, you need to create an MOU with uh the convention center in order to run these shows.

So on good faith, we executed the MOU.

What happened with that MOU is we voted uh Shannon Davis OVG onto our board, so she has given access to all of our uh our profit and loss and our budgets.

Then we formed a Border Town Live Managing Committee so that no single person is making any of the decisions.

So it consisted of Jess Smith, Shannon Davis, and me.

And so all of our budgets, everything that we did went through that committee.

However, when the River Valley Film Society asked to see the contracts for the shows that we did.

So it's been five months this was a response that we got from OVG that the contracts were proprietary and we could not see them.

So we had shows five months ago and we have no clue what the profit and loss on them we haven't even seen the contracts.

So we don't even know what's in the contracts.

So that's kind of why we're putting this aspect of the project into the request for y'all because I'm in a loss for it.

I've never been in a situation like this before where I had an agreement with someone and they just basically voided it.

So the second half of our request is we just did the film festival so we did two and a half days and our rate was three thousand dollars.

We figure and looking at the profitability of um the the Boardtown live shows three thousand dollars is a great rate to kind of make because we want to maintain that profitability in order to have sustainability right and so that's one of the things too that we don't know what's in those other contracts what the actual rental rates are for the shows.

So that's another thing that we're working towards towards um making sure the profitability and sustainability and then it's the same as the Symphony we just want to run our own box office and ticketing.

Here's the reason why so we had that sponsor that gave us 10 thousand dollars to buy tickets Ticketmaster refused to waive waive the fees we see 25 kids who didn't get to see Sesame Street they see $736 in fees.

That upset my sponsor so if we have our own ticketing system and someone gives me money I can maximize that stuff and make sure that that money goes to helping the community and not in rentmaster.

So those are our three requests and so open the floor for questions.

Dr.

Goldsmith thank you for your presentation director Christina Kitsavis you recognize what are some alternatives to Ticketmaster right now we have a ticketing system called the event that we use for the film festival.

E V V E and T.

And then I've also talked to the symphony and I might look at the ticketing system that they use for the symphony.

So you don't need to build out a a system you can build anything out there is options with reduced fees.

Yeah okay very very reduced fees um and the the nice thing about the the event one is it's connected to the Democrat Gazette you get automatic marketing when you do stuff with them.

So it's like you know how they have the WhatsApp section of the paper?

If you go onto that ticketing system you automatically get put in the WhatsApp calendar and so it's a it's a great thing to allow for the it helps not only with marketing but lower ticketing fees.

I saw on one of the previous slides it said that Abby could answer some questions for us about the arts and education grants or um potential sponsors or things like that.

Can we hear a little more about that?

Abby if you want to tell them about some of the opportunities and what what you have going out there she's been hitting the ground on this for several months.

Yeah.

I had several corporate sponsors but I also have some grants that we would definitely be eligible for and thanks to Brandon the infrastructure that he's built he's got the numbers to back up everything that he's done with the film festival for the last five years.

So that data because everything's data driven now but that data will allow us to um secure some grants I have no no doubt the mayor and other people will um sign some letters of support and I have no doubt there are many foundations out there that that fund arts projects and especially this one because it's by the community for the community and the infrastructures there.

So would um we're looking for like private foundation grants yeah so we did some research on there and we found a whole uh host of things from private to everything.

So if you want to talk about that Abby the range of grants that we we got out of that research.

Yeah we we worked with Melanie at the um University of Arkansas Fort Smith and we did some research together and we were able to isolate and identify several foundations that's their purpose is to fund arts and education and this is both and um she she also felt very strongly that we would be eligible for these grants I would be able to use her for a source expert in the event that I needed any assistance right now and she offered to um volunteer to read the grant before we send it in and make sure that keep so we've got it we've got a good group.

So we've got it, we've got a good group.

So I know you mentioned Sesame Street.

What are some other shows that would be similar to that that um would be geared towards family and children?

Well, like uh I know the Commission Center is the Blippy show, like you name any of the shows that like our children based.

So that's so what we have to do is we'll be looking at like what shows are coming through, and so our focus will be trying to get shows that are community and family based, and then trying to have some maybe you know, other you know, higher end shows maybe once a year, but that's one of the things that our plan kind of eases us into, right?

We're not gonna jump off and start doing seven shows a year.

We want to ease into with maybe uh a four-year season, go into a five and doing a six-year season, I think kind of hits about right for what we're looking for.

So I think uh Blippy is very popular.

Huh?

Oh, yeah.

Well, I'm no no six six over a season.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's all I've got right now.

Thank you.

So what you know, I I think this came about during the budgeting process.

And I don't recall or maybe it wasn't shared what the dollar amount was of the city funding this.

And I didn't see it in any of the documentation.

Does anybody have that information?

We include we included uh $250,000 in the uh non in the general funds non-departmental line item that was dedicated to the convention center, and so it was combined with that amount?

So it's 200, it's it was 250,000 that we added into the budget for that.

Okay.

So it has not been.

So explain to me what OVG does versus what we're doing here.

What's what's the difference?

Uh the difference is community.

What do you mean?

Because uh OVG, so we had a meeting a couple weeks ago, and they said if they take it over, basically they're not going to work with the nonprofits.

They're OVG said that?

Yeah.

Okay.

And so that they won't they won't work with us.

So basically, if if if it the OBG contract comes through, then River Valley Physical Society is no longer involved in this process.

I mean, I think I saw that they're wanting uh one the second item we're we're talking about on our agenda is revisions to the OVG uh OVG contract.

Which something like this is in there.

And I've I've got I've got questions about that because I look at at OVG like doing this same thing.

And that would that would be my expectation when we went when we went with OVG, um, that that's what they would be doing.

Um one of the things that sticks out to me.

So we've got RESP CT.

We've got Sesame Street Live, and we've got girls not out.

Those don't go together.

Uh yeah, we we were we were informed if you look at the timeline when we were informed by OVG that that was part of the lineup.

What what do you mean?

So basically the sh the those three shows, the so the first two shows, respect and and RSV uh respect and and Sesame Street Sesame Street were booked in 24.

So even before by the OVG.

Okay.

And then they also uh went ahead and said, hey, we're gonna go ahead and use the funds for the use these 250,000?

Yeah, funds for that, and then they let us know that they had booked that show, and so it was a it was a FYI, by the way.

This is already booked, and we're gonna put this in.

I wasn't wild about that show when I first saw it.

Uh Girls Not Out.

Yeah.

It didn't it it didn't fit with the City of Fort Smith.

Um I don't know how I don't know how I could justify that with people I run around with people that I know.

Um I don't think it looked good on the city.

So I would recommend those types of shows are not included on anything going forward, whether it's this, whether it's you guys.

I think that's a bad look for the city of Fort Smith, and I would we don't need to we don't need to have that here.

So um I may have some other questions and in oh well so we had 250,000.

Uh when we're talking about grants and and and gathering all that money, um how much would are we expecting to raise in grant dollars?

I know we we might not know the answer to that, but what our goals to get uh yeah, so in our uh in our sustainability plan and talking to Abby, a realistic goal for the first year if we actually have a full year of raising funds and doing stuff.

Um so looking at the grants plus you know uh donors and um and all that, you know, plus if we start looking at like the profitability from the shows, looking at a minimum profit, 75,000 the first year, right?

Because what we're doing is we're trying to see what we can we're trying to make this self-sustainable, right?

So how do we replace that that amount of money that the city is giving us, right?

So we think that between the um the profit uh the grants and everything that we can get to 75 the first year.

We're looking at 125 the second year, and by the third year we we think that we can get to the 200,000 dollar mark.

Because what you can do is as you apply for grants, you can get more, and once we can start showing, so like the the the process of like us bringing kids to Sesame Street Live or us bringing kids to that, what grants tend to do is they don't want to see you go, hey, I'm gonna you have this money, I'm gonna just create a grant so I can get your money.

They want to see progress over time, and that's what Abby was talking about by us already having the the progress over time with the film society of already doing programming and bringing stuff in.

So that helps her get a head start on stuff because when a grant looks at you, they're like, so what have you done in the past?

And so we'll be able to build that with the grants, and then you have longer sustainable grants and be able to get bigger grants, and then we can get, you know, as you build that donation base, and then we're looking at uh uh a subscription base, right?

So maybe our first year we get you know 50 subscribers, and then we the whole idea is to try to build that base.

If we can get if we can build that base to about 150, 200 uh subscribers who are subscribing for season tickets, right?

That gives you another base of money.

So what we're doing is I'm trying to pull from several different pockets in order to create sustainability, right?

One th one thing I thought you uh heard you say is by year three, two hundred thousand.

Um my assumption is by year three that's two fifty.

Well, um I think I don't actually don't think the two hundred and fifty thousand is as much we need, I think two hundred thousand is enough.

Well, I I guess what I'm getting at is this the whole self-sustaining component.

If if we're if the city's putting in two fifty, yeah.

I would that's that would be my expectation is two fifty in year three.

Yeah.

Uh so what we want to do is I actually don't you can lower that to two hundred.

I don't think we need two hundred and fifty thousand to be honest uh for what we're doing.

Um that that's that that was a number that they picked.

And I think uh uh Carl and when when they we all did y'all's when y'all did the budget thing, um so that was that was a number, and so 200 I think is a reasonable amount for for this whole project.

Okay.

We'll go Director Good, then Director Kemp, and then Director Christina Kitsavis.

Thanks, Vice Mayor.

Just a couple of uh comments.

Um the uh Aretha uh show was fantastic.

So that was OVG, right?

So that was a good call.

I know Dr.

Goldsmith had mentioned uh a little while ago talking about grants and funding.

You know, they focus on arts and educate arts and education.

To me, the Aretha also fell within that category.

Uh and those of you that missed it, you missed it because I mean it showcased Aretha start to finish, but it also showed that educational segment of social challenges of the civil rights movement all during that time.

Fabulous.

So I wanted to say that.

So whether it was OBG or you guys, great, need more of that.

Um Director Martin had had talked about um the two entities possibly doing the same thing.

Um and I kind of agree.

But the reason why I I see the two reasons I see that having two different organizations doing similar things are these.

Um for one, uh Dr.

Gold Goldsmith uh talked about uh in uh nonprofit friendly, where you get sponsorships and donations and such.

The other is the diversity of what you bring in.

You know, I'll give you an example.

Um two decades ago to a decade ago, you know, the Blues Fest used to come in and do strictly entertainment and pretty much just one segment of music, one genre of music.

And then you have these other organizations come in like the Juneteenth that brought in a vast variety of entertainment uh and educational segments.

So the two different organizations can do similar things but be different.

And there I see the appreciation in that.

Yeah.

Thank you, Vice Mayor.

Here you go.

Um I I would just where I'm wondering, I'm in the same spirit with you, Neil on um Director Martin on the spirit of the shows, but even the spirit of the community in general in my mind.

I think at some point we as a board this year are facing we're starting this on Thursday, but we're going to have to sparse between needs and wants.

And we're going to have to figure out how to make a budget come in and shrink, and we have to find ways to do this to come together.

At the same time, the principle of it is I I ran on the idea that we need to be a town where there's things to do.

But I guess what I'm wondering is the board the board that you have around your organization, the support that you see beginning to build.

Is Border Town Live ever able to just take on the management of the convention center?

No, not the management of the convention center.

That's why we have all the connections with the community.

That would be outside of our realm of what our organization does.

Because the convention center, because uh I'm being part of the uh AMP myself, basically, you know, their their main business all year long are the conventions that come through and all that, and there's a whole booking system and everything that kind of that that would completely be all the purview of of our organization.

Okay.

I mean that helps me distinguish when we talk about the two organizations.

I just like to go straight to it and just you know cut into the idea of that.

Um I do think that it's important to make these shows affordable, you know.

I mean, as a father of five children, I have often thought that it's like, wow, it's neat that there's a $75 per ticket show, you know, and I have to find some way excuse to make up buying only one or two tickets.

Um so uh I I do want to continue to echo that.

I do think that the way we can spin it, but I mean I also think about the the long-term look of the city of Fort Smith.

We've talked about a sports complex.

Could some of this facility meet any of those needs as a sports complex with with some instructural thoughts without spending dollars?

I don't know, but I think for me I have a load of questions and I appreciate y'all's efforts.

I really appreciate your efforts to roll up your sleeves and find ways to say, hey, give me three years and we can get this sustainable as far as not costing the residents money.

I believe in that idea.

I just am wondering, and I think a lot of my next questions will be more for OVG, in the sense of how do we drill down and really make these things um profitable and turning turning some economic development.

So thank you for your efforts.

Thank you.

Um have you approached anyone yet about corporate sponsorships?

Because I I see what you're trying to do here, similar to Walt Martin Center with the uh would that be accurate with the subscriptions and Abby.

When I go to see Procter and Gamble sponsored the children's series or things like that.

Um Art Best was a very big um sponsor for the for the last um film festival, and I had several sponsors that want to be all year long.

They're waiting for us to get those Broadway shows so that they can sponsor them so the kids, boys and girls club, restore hope, foster kids can go to those shows, and the the community is all about that.

The banks um First National Bank is really brilliant, been a good sponsor for us, and they're interested in expanding that.

I I think they are footprint, yes, I'm sorry, I I get carried away, but yes, we've got good relationships with corporate sponsors, and um I see it growing pretty quick.

Okay, and then we 250,000 was budgeted.

How much of that was spent.

I I don't know the answer to that off the top of my head.

Uh um ballpark?

50, 50,000.

Okay.

So that's a big that's a big jump.

And then um Brandon, can you tell me a little bit more about the marketing piece?

Because I would say I I think there's been a good job done uh with the uh the Aretha show.

You know, I saw that on Instagram advertised.

You know, a lot of times things come and I never see them, but I thought that was really clever because I was able to go through, purchase my tickets.

Um I thought that was really smart.

Um so yeah, so our marketing is kind of what I do with the film festival.

So just so y'all know, our film festival has had 1.8 billion media reach.

And so I have an amazing marketing team.

And what we do is we do it all approach.

So we're we're looking at reaching the the social media.

We're looking at television, radio.

I'm even in talks with um uh with uh getting some influencers.

So being part of uh the uh Western Arkansas uh tourism, they will actually give us a 30% discount on Arkansas ambassadors that we bring in, so we actually get a by using those there's several programs out there that you can use.

So we can have influencers that come in.

Uh we've already been talking to a few of them, Archie Travels that that go and promote the shows.

Um we uh you know, so everything from the flyers from from the ground up.

It's basically it's an all-inclusive marketing approach that I I take to everything because you know and then it depends too on what show you're doing, right?

So I we we only use certain um TV stations for Sesame Street, whereas we use different TV stations or different you know, so what you're doing is when you when you get a show in, you're looking at okay, who is my audience?

That's where you start off with everything, right?

Who is my audience and where what is the best way, what are some of the ways to reach them?

Because when you're doing marketing, you know, you you want it people have to see things, you know, three to seven times before they even remember it.

I mean, think about how many times you see an event on Facebook and they're like, oh I want to go to that, and then you see it again, okay.

I want to go, and then finally the day of you're like, oh yes, I'm too late and I missed it, right?

So it's trying to get those things and all those elements into and so also what we do with our our uh sponsorships is we break our sponsorships up to where that's where with that 15,000 that we got for Sesame Street, 10,000 went to tickets to the community.

But what we're doing is we're asking them to also to supplement our marketing, right?

So that we're taking off some of the burden.

So we're not just burdening the city for everything dollar that we do in terms of marketing, we're also using our sponsorships to supplement that.

So who would be approving the shows that would be coming through this partnership?

Because I remember you know, we had talked about when we discussed it at the budget meeting last year.

We we talked about I think the share show.

Um we talked about some things like that.

Um in my mind it was it was gonna be musicals and and more uh community geared things.

So what I would do is I would take the kind of the original model.

So in order to run these shows in April, we created MOU that we executed in March with OBG and our River Rally Film Society.

And as part of that, we created a managing committee.

And so right now that managing committee was for just uh representatives from OEG and also from uh the Film Society.

What I'm wanting to add is another component to where we have a city representative on there, right?

So we're spending your money, we'd like to have someone who's represents so that when we're so what we do is you get uh you get the shows that may be coming in, we have to pick the shows, and you do the booking.

But here's the other thing too.

This is the important part about having this committee, because remember you talked about affordability.

So in that booking process is when you set the prices, right?

So if you just go in here and you're just like picking shows and doing this and all of a sudden it's a 75 or 55 dollar show that's not within the range, that's the other things that you're looking at, right?

So that committee is looking at that range of pricing, you know, plus you know making sure that it's something that we know that will sell in Fort Smith, paying attention to Fort Smith Market.

Just because something plays really well in Cleveland or Northwest Arkansas or somewhere, it may not play well here, right?

And so it's knowing who your market is.

So that committee it would be the the way that we we deal with that.

Okay, so you'd be looking at like a different family subscription, um more for the kids' things, and maybe I know sometimes with the Walton Arts Center they do if you buy a subscription, then you get um first choice to go in and buy tickets ahead of time so you can get better seats, things like that.

So it incentivizes people to do the subscription.

Yeah, and also having a one of the things that we're looking at, and when I was putting together that that pricing uh proposal is having so say we have a six-show season.

Maybe you're not interested in all six hours, so you have a pick three, you know, thing that you can do.

Um so there's lots of ways to to to do that.

There are a lot of ways to pro to do that to where we can get a subscription audience and grow that.

Okay.

All right, thank you.

My concern kind of going back to what uh uh director good said.

So I guess I I do have concerns about two entities.

And maybe this isn't necessarily a critique of of what you're doing, Mr.

Goldsmith, but maybe it's more of a critique with the um with the convention center.

My we're we're we're already paying for the convention center to do this kind of stuff.

I don't necessarily feel as though it has been as successful as I would have hoped.

And I don't know if I necessarily get a sense that the convention centers doing as good of a job as they can do in their from it from a marketing perspective.

And so that that kind of frustrates me.

And so that's how it all kind of centers around this whole discussion is we're already paying for for advertising and marketing and and all these things.

Are we getting what we're paying for?

I I think that's a that's a uh a question that that I would ask.

Um so maybe not necessarily about you guys, but that that's just where I'm at.

We're we're paying for it already.

Are we getting what we hoped?

And and and big if I don't feel that they're doing as as good a job as as they could be, now we're bringing somebody else in to do marketing.

I know there's different there's a different component to it, but are we bringing somebody else in to supplement maybe what not might not be working out on the convention side?

So let me go back to the beginning of this project.

So the way that this project started was B and LeBon had an idea.

We went to the conven we went to the convention center, Rennie Johnson and said, hey, we have this idea, we want to work with you on this.

And Randy Johnson said, hey, we can help you on the booking side, because that's what we can you know, you know, we can go and find other bookers, but nice thing about OBG, if you look on their website, their booking is one of the products that they, you know, services that they do, and they have their nationwide, right?

So they have access to they got places that probably can play a show for an entire week.

So they know what's coming through because what Fort Smith has to do is we're not here to go and pick up a show for an entire week, right?

We're like we're we're kind of picking up a show that's going from Memphis and it's on its way to Oklahoma City.

And so they so the whole idea was to be cooperative.

And that the whole idea was for these two entities to work together.

That was the original thing.

But as you see, once we tried to we we so then that's why Jeff had us do an MOU between us and OVG.

And so we did all of our part to that in that agreement.

We brought her, we voted Shannon Davis who put the OBG onto our board.

We created the managing committee, so we followed that we followed that MOU.

So the whole idea the the best best way to do this that we thought we were on the path to do was a cooperative model.

However, you see the email once the shows were done, and they said we can't e I can't even see the contracts or the PNLs for the shows that we worked on with them.

And I thought that was part of that cooperative model.

So that's one of the things that's why I have, if you see, if you look in my request, is to still have OBG work us work with OVG to book the shows and then having that committee pick the shows.

So we're still we're like I was just kind of sidebind, you know, when I all sudden that that didn't happen.

But you know, we see that that that is a good model, but it's Jeff remember when we were in the meeting, you said there was two paths, right?

And and they said that if we went down this path, then the River Valley Film Society would not be involved.

So we had to go with the other path where we're basically in charge of the fund.

So we we were we were putting a we're putting into a situation where we had to make a choice between two paths of of where the funds set.

I think what I need some clarity on the city funds OVG, is that correct?

We hire them, we're we're contracted with them.

That's correct.

Uh and they have a management fee for managing the convention center, yes.

So how can any information be proprietary?

The the the difference there, and this is a clarification that I needed to make, and uh and I and it was asked of me last week and I asked Shannon for that.

The you know the the city is their client.

And so if the city had asked for that information, that information could be provided to the city.

But if a uh nonprofit or uh or someone or third party asked for that information, they're bound to give they're they're they're not supposed to give that to anybody that asked for it.

There's uh they can respond to that from the city if the city makes that request.

And then the city can provide it whom to whom member we want.

So not FOIA OVG not directly, no.

I mean they I mean So by moving by moving this fund to its own line outside the convention center, then it's more transparent with that.

Well it can be it can be just as transparent the way it is.

If the request is made of me, the city.

I'm sorry.

If the request is made of the city, the city makes the request of OVG for the information, it can be provided that way.

Okay.

And that was I mean that was just a uh technicality of something that was I mean it was just the direct ask wasn't able to be fulfilled directly.

But we were executed at MOU between us and OBG.

So we were in a partnership with the R.

And I've not seen that.

Yeah, uh you you were uh yeah, it's it's in the packet.

Well that's I mean, and that's the one that's the one that was executed on March Star because you said you asked us to go into in order to do the shows, you said execute a MOU between you and OVG to make these shows happen.

And so we were following your advice on that.

And so we were under the impression by being in that that you know, if I'm working on and you know putting on a show, I kind of want to know like how well it did.

And it was uh I I couldn't uh I couldn't cross the veil on that.

It uh it seems to me, uh listening to the conversation for the last uh coming up on 42 minutes that what it boils down to is that we as a governing body as we enter into our budgeting season have a decision to make about how a certain amount of dollars, and we've heard a range from 50,000 actually spent last year to 250,000, 200,000.

We just have a decision to make uh as to whether or not and how much and at what level we wish to allocate funds for promotion and recruitment of shows and whether we use OVG exclusively or whether we uh partner, if you will, with Border Town Live, you know, made up of local folks to um have them assist in recruiting some shows, and I think it is a um you know conversation and a decision that we'll have to make as we come into that section of the budget.

And I know um lots of questions and thought will go into that, and I would hope that uh all parties involved uh at each and every level of that uh conversation and discussion moving forward would make themselves available to answer questions from the board as they come up.

Um any last questions or comments on the side?

Well it just as we move towards the conclusion because we're not going to make a decision tonight, obviously on the budget item.

Uh Director Christina gets outs.

So really if 50,000 out of the 250,000 has been spent and your goal is 75,000, you could hit that pretty quickly.

I mean probably uh well the the 70,000 is for us to uh on our side supplementing, right?

So what we want to do is each year, whatever the city provides, we want to make sure that we're we're providing on our side, right?

So our idea is that that fund, so all the profits and everything from the shows go back into that fund, right?

So the whole idea is to keep so hopefully that fund is renewed.

So if the if uh if we make a whole bunch of money on a show, then that goes back into that fund, right?

So really you're just getting the money that you've made back.

Yeah, but it's not going to us, it's going to go back into the fund that's under the city, right?

Right.

And then but what we're doing on our side, because we've created a um a nonprofit fund for Border Town Live, is we are actually raising funds on top of that to help with the marketing so that we're not using all your funds.

And so our whole goal is the first year is on our end to to hit that $75,000 mark, you know, total to, you know, that, you know, so we're we're you know keep that balance.

So really from the city's point of view, uh from where we're at, this could be self-sustaining within a year.

Uh we have the three-year model that we're looking at.

Well, I mean, if you've only spent 50,000 this year, well, because we didn't do a full season.

Okay.

That was not a full season.

That was three shows.

We were we we're gonna have a full season that we're gonna do, so full season.

So take the you know, those basically two shows.

We it actually sorry, I think it's actually around eighty if we actually uh from what I think uh because I I think we've done the fifty, but I think there's another thirty or something that that's it's that's behind there.

And so a full season.

So what we're looking at is I'm how much did you make?

How much did it bring?

I have no idea.

Remember?

That's the piece you don't know.

I have no idea.

I have not been able to see the pro the profit and loss or the contracts.

Like even a lump sum?

No, I've not seen any of it.

I I I I don't have access to that information.

Do we know what's in the fund now?

Yes.

We do?

You you guys do?

Okay.

So uh okay.

Maybe we'll we'll get so if if we allocated two fifty and we spent fifty, what else is whatever that fund is right now is would tell us what they what they made.

We spent 85.

So it's 85.

Okay.

I'm done.

Thank you.

Director Kemp.

Thank you.

Uh does Border Town Live have any open reimbursements you're still waiting on?

Yes.

Total to.

Uh we still have, I think it's over 4,000.

We have an open um invoice from April, that's 150 days overdue.

That's what I thought.

So I I think the the thing I'm noticing, and this is not just the only instance.

Um I understand we get third party groups to come in and manage, but I'm finding out that reimbursements to local groups or efforts can be slow.

And I think we got to look at contracts and frame that out and make sure that we are, especially local businesses or nonprofits, that they do get their reimbursements in a timely manner.

Um I know the last time it took me kind of asking administration on your behalf when you had told me that there was uh there was a larger number at the time.

It was you know somewhere to the tune of 20,000.

Uh I like the separate fund because I like to be able to see the numbers and see where that goes.

I think we do need to remember though that there's a combined price.

I mean, if if you have a separate fund over here for this purpose and what we're funding with the management group, we need to realize that's a combined cost, and so that we can value that.

Uh and then I think in contract with the third party company managing it, we would need to, if we do this, in my opinion, require transparency and communication.

The fact that you don't know what these shows brought in and uh on PLs and things like that just doesn't even make sense.

And then the last thing I'd say is you since you're involved with AMP, and I know there's several board of directors are and different things of that nature, as we talk about this, and we're talking about cost, cost, cost, but if we could get the numbers on how these shows are doing, but also if we could figure out how busy were the restaurants, the hotels, uh, did those numbers spike up in these times?

You know, did these people travel in and stay in a hotel room?

You know, and they're paying taxes and things of that nature.

So we need, I think, data, so then we could go, yeah, well, this is an investment that we have a return on.

And so those are my comments.

Thank you.

I would just say we do have that data in the star report.

Is that right, Ashley?

Is that what it's called the Star Report?

That monitors those things.

So we can see it on a monthly, and we've got the computer maps it out this year versus last year, things like that.

And so if we could triangulate that with a show, you know, then we can even see more data for a show, not just ticket sales, but you know we were busier this weekend than we've ever been and compared to the other baseline weeks.

So so when I have that data, because uh like right now I don't have access to it with for the film festival last year.

We we work with AMP, and so I would be doing this, and we had what a $225,000 impact just from the uh from the film festival from those couple days.

So I've worked with them on a regular basis to get those numbers, and those numbers are super valuable.

I'm a data-driven person, like you are, and so that's why it's kind of like being in in this black box of not having any data on the shows that's kind of um I've never been in this situation before.

Yeah, I would I would like to say uh just in terms of uh any official arrangement or agreement uh between the city and Bordertown Live and such before uh any of these shows were booked, didn't necessarily happen.

And so I mean correct me if I'm wrong.

Okay.

Um so and I and and you referenced earlier you know my suggestion of working through an MOU with OBG.

However, I mean how that started uh I was I was you I mean submitted some invoices to me.

I think those same ones that Director Kemp was just referencing.

Uh and I didn't have a mechanism I wish to pay them.

I didn't have an agreement in place.

I didn't have any sort of uh history as the city's involvement and this program to get the respect show or the Sesame Street show or whatever else uh came forward.

And so at that point, without any mechanism for me to facilitate reimbursing those invoices, I suggested perhaps working with OVG and facilitating that arrangement because we have an arrangement with OVG, they could submit for reimbursement on your behalf, and I think that's I think that's ultimately what happened.

Yeah.

And so that's that's the context of that arrangement, and I just wanted to say that.

Yeah, so the path for these shows was um Border Town Live would invoice OVG, OVG would take the money out of the entertainment fund, the entertainment fund would give the money to OVG, OVG would pay Border Town Live, and then Border Town Live would pay our vendors.

So that was the path that we were dealing with.

So if we have it to where it's just Border Town Live dealing with it, there's so much room for error.

And that I'll say that is not like like you pointed out, that's not a streamlined process.

However, there wasn't any sort of agreement or MOU or anything established before any of these shows happened.

And so all of this was trying to happen to on the back end to try to make people whole on the back side.

This is what we seek for Border Town Live as an entity.

Just completely transparent, utterly documented financial dealings.

And we want it to be completely transparent and understandable so that we can provide you with answers such as you've been answered immediately.

And keep good accounts and agree and follow and conform to the city's methods of charging accounts.

No.

Thank you.

Any other questions or comments for Dr.

Goldsmith?

Well now we're uh we're on the front end of this uh conversation and this uh proposal.

Thank you for making it.

Thank you for having us.

And we'll have uh something to consider as we move into budget season.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Item two is a review proposed uh second amendment to the management agreement with OVG facilities regarding operation of the Fort Smith Convention Center.

This was placed on a future study session back in April of 2025.

Uh any opening comments from you, Mr.

Dinger?

Uh no, no, just in in terms of the um what we what was said, I mean there was a r there was a pretty successful review uh prevented at a uh presented at a study session uh earlier this year uh to where we talked about a few specific items with OVG and the they have uh work to advance a uh proposed contract amendment to us this evening and um Shannon Davis and Melodyer are here to address these items for us.

Thank you for being here, ladies.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

So um on our agenda here to for our second amendment to the management agreement um that we talked about earlier in the year was one to change oh sorry to change our single year contracts left into multi-year agreements.

Um the second thing on there was to change our off-site catering agreement to fully allow us to have off-site catering.

The third was the entertainment um contract or the entertainment marketing account.

In this account, which I can get into here in just a moment, um, it's set up quite differently than uh currently as border town.

And the third the fourth was the um parking obligations and to modify that agreement, which is just to provide um it's just to provide information basically to the city as a study from our parking department on um additional revenues that could happen.

So an evaluation basically of parking services, but no actual parking.

Um let me get here, sorry.

Um wanted to go ahead and report some numbers to y'all as our expectations currently.

We have had a very successful year so far.

We are currently projecting for our net um income to be at and then the loss of the 759,000 226, which is in regards to our budget for 2025.

Hang on.

Which was 928,395, um, where we're currently um projecting our budget for 26 to come in at 794,392.

Uh we finished that last year at 81236, and this year in April, when we did our route when the board asked us to reforecast, um we came in at that reforecast at 880,775.

So we are now projecting, like I said, to come in at 759,022.

So a significant savings back to the city, and this is just the beginning.

In regards to these other items that we've been working on very hard in securing additional business uh for the remainder of this year and for future years.

We also have three very significant proposals that we're going to be presenting to the board for possible naming rights for the convention center.

This is real money.

This is we've we are very far along in these discussions with these three companies.

Roughly over three in between three to four million dollars.

Again, I have three counts.

So all of this would again lessen this.

These can be presented in this year.

That's just our naming rights proposals only.

We have several other proposals currently in the works with pouring rights between Coca-Cola and Pepsi.

We have pouring right contracts that we are negotiating right now with Casa Amigas Tequila and Tito's vodka, as well as a beer purveyor as well.

We have digital screens that are going up in the convention center all the way through in a large video board in the theater lobby where we'll be selling advertisement on those screens as well.

Lots of different opportunities for sponsorships that I mean we are just getting started.

Director Martin, you asked me before that I needed to lower that number, that obligation to the city.

Yes.

And I went and found any revenue opportunities that I could possibly find to reduce that number.

And we are working very hard on securing those.

So my hope is is that in the next couple of months that we'll be able to bring those by November, I would say, um, to wrap up those three proposals and present those to the board for that naming right so that hopefully that can be secured in this year to even further lessen the impact on the city.

And with that, I'll take any of your questions.

Okay.

These numbers also do not include off-site catering revenue.

That would be additional.

Director K.

Thank you.

Thank you for your presentation.

Thank you for the numbers.

Thank you for lowering the cost.

Because I think, as I've already talked about, we're going to have to continue to do that.

And I really would hope that we could hear that in November, like you're talking about.

I think that would be very advantageous for us.

On the catering, because I I did get a little bit of email correspondence, not a bunch, but a little bit on uh opposing the city approving a catering.

Can you talk to me about pros, cons?

Can you can you walk me through do other cities that you're working with, do they do this?

I'm not real sure if they are.

Again, we're we also have our new director of sales and events, Justin Butcher, who is very versed.

He has a huge previous clientele for outside catering.

Um just in contracts that we could sign right now is like a hundred thousand dollars or more, and that's not even including you know, trying to market or is that a hundred thousand uh is that a hundred thousand dollar number in the sense of sales, or are you talking about a hundred thousand to actually bring down this balance?

Yeah, that that's sales sales revenue, so total event revenue that I could sign right now today would be roughly a hundred thousand dollars.

And how much of that money would you say, you know, percentage just picking it up?

I'm not holding you to anything, but picking that percentage of that number would be helping bring down this total number.

Because obviously you have expenses.

I mean, like 65, 60 to 65 percent, yeah.

Six sixty-five percent.

Okay.

So catering in in theory, right now you're saying could have a forty, fifty thousand dollar impact on this big ticket numbers, would you say?

Could you talk more about the parking and as well about that?

You know, you talked about the four.

Um, right now I do have some parking that is listed in my budget for 26.

It was listed in my budget for 25 as well.

That parking revenue is only for ticketed shows that say um a lot of the shows like Christina, you talked about that you don't see a lot of advertising on.

Not all these shows are shows that are purchased through OVG.

So that's important to note.

If we have a rental, we're not we're not paying for their advertisement.

So that show, it's up to them to pay for that advertisement.

Now it does behoove us absolutely to post that on social media and make sure it's on our website and any print that we put out, right, to do that.

But we have to mark it.

Um we can't pay for their show.

That's an expense that falls back onto the person bringing the show.

So do you have an idea of how much parking revenue is?

Yes, in the in the parking revenue.

For each show, I I base I roughly um I think put in there like three thousand dollars for several shows, you know, over the course of the year, but for each for each show based on like 300 parking spaces.

Um again, these are ticketed shows that would be rentals or shows that we bought, right?

Because there's the profit margin for a show is very small with the majority of the profit going back to the artist.

So you definitely do have to find a way in order to generate that revenue.

Um a lot of other venues, of course, charge for charge for parking too.

Um we were not looking at charging for parking for our conventions, you know, our nonprofit events, our community events, things of that nature, um, but definitely you know, for a ticketed ship.

Did the uh does OVG it, you know, if we were to renew a contract and things of that nature uh to a term so you're talking about is it true that you guys are wishing to not partner with nonprofits?

No, that's not that's not the case at all.

Um now as far as financially and the way that this account has been managed, OVG is not going to do that moving forward.

It either needs to be that the funds are provided to that third account that we created, the entertainment fund, where everything in and out is controlled by OBG.

This has just been extremely messy for a better lack of words.

We have um outstanding, you know, invoices or that we don't have backup for that we've requested and we still don't have that's important.

I can't pay something that I don't have proof of.

It's your money.

It's the taxpayer money.

I am the steward of that money.

I have to be very careful with that.

So if there's no backup, no receipt, I can't just give that money out.

Um so we're still missing on some of that.

So it's it's not that we can't or won't work with a nonprofit.

It's that I can't like financially OVG is not going to share the responsibility of that money because they can't control they can't control that.

Is there an idea too?

And this is my final question, most of my colleagues really.

Is there a do you is there a way to generate a list of activity for the convention center?

Not like I don't need to see just the numbers, but uh the feeling I get is how often is this place moving?

Oh, I can I can give you some sort of like all yeah.

Just an activity lookover, just something I could peruse and go, no, it's busy.

Look, here it is.

It's can we get to that point?

Can we get it broken down by event type?

Absolutely.

Oh, yeah, we have I have all of this information and it's in the high level version of the budget as well, and we definitely track all of this information.

Um we just recently went through a lot of it for these naming rights proposals because we have to present that information to you know that uh because it would help us.

We hear the there's nothing going on that's a good idea.

We have a lot of events.

And if I had a way to say, no, actually it was used 350 times last year.

Correct.

Well, and what's also on your website, yes, there's a calendar.

Well, and not everything is on that calendar, right?

Because if it's a private event, it's not listed.

If it's a public event, it's on there.

But not a private event.

And that's where I want to make sure that we're clear.

For a thing like Marcy Ball.

I know that that's that's a private event and there's a lot of people there, but I don't want that to muddy the waters with a show and kind of oh uh like you can kind of put those numbers together and make it look like what it might not be.

So that's why I'd like to see how many how many things are in the Art Best Performing Arts Center, how many things how many conventions?

Oh yeah, I can definitely I have a lot of people.

I agree because some of those things would happen regardless of the convention center, but there's many things that wouldn't.

Right.

And because it as a convention center, so I think that would be beneficial.

Thank you.

How many people can you do catering for?

Um in the convention center, we can uh in that main ballroom we can do up to 1,500.

And what about outside?

Is it just depend on the venue?

Yeah, pretty much.

But we're the largest venue.

So you know, I think it's important to note because we've had this discussion a lot about the catering, and I I understand the concern um with it being city funded and it's an unfair advantage, but there's not a lot of places in Fort Smith that can cater large events.

Correct.

So to take them out of the running at all, um, you know, it's really just our detriment because there's only most places when I've worked on events.

It's hard to find somebody that can cater for 300.

It's even harder to find someone that can cater for 400.

Um, you know, a lot of the kitchens just don't have the capacity or they're you know, they're serving other people.

So I think that is something we need to keep open as an option.

Working working with them on outside catering.

Director George Kitsabis and then uh Director Neil Martin.

Um much do you charge to park?

It would be ten dollars.

Ten dollars?

Mm-hmm.

For an event.

For one car.

Correct.

And that's pretty much the going rate.

I mean, if you're going to park anywhere.

Yeah.

I mean, you go up to the AMP and you know, or anywhere where you're paying for event parking.

The fair is five.

Well, that's good money.

Yes, it is.

It's definitely good money.

Okay.

You said pouring rights, right?

I'm sorry.

Pepsi Pepsi is a pouring right.

Pepsi.

So they send you a check every year for the rights.

Uh yes, and it's like a based on depending on the what that deal structure looks like, it could be in product as well, so product that we're going to be able to do that.

Correct.

Either way, it it affects the right the bottom line.

And your concession stand has a concession stand is doing really well.

We have um increased those numbers significantly year over year.

Because we've tailored our food and beverage to um the event that's in-house.

So when we have these sports teams and volleyball and dance and whatnot, they don't want to eat chicken strips and hamburgers and French fries.

They want fruit cups and you know, they want healthy alternatives, chicken wraps, and we have to be competitive with the food trucks that we have going on in the bakery district, or we don't have a prayer.

So we've changed all of that.

We don't we've lent, you know, d definitely limit we don't allow food in from outside, and we've policed that I think pretty well.

Um but changing that menu was it was everything.

I mean, you have to give them what they want and they'll buy it.

What was the list the the last big catering event you all had?

Um First National Bank, we just did their prestige platinum awards, which we got um excellent reviews for.

Nice letter back from them as well saying it was the best event that they've had there.

And do you charge that by the plate?

Yes, sir.

So much of it.

Um I would have to pull their big things.

Okay, thank you.

You're welcome.

Uh Director Martin and Director Kent.

So I think Director Christina Kettavis said some things that maybe kind of rethink a little bit.

However, just in in in principle of the thing, just to reiterate my my stance, I I do have concerns if OVG does off-site catering.

Like I like on the face of it, I'm like, I I I don't think that's a good good thing because or I'm not for it because we spent or OVG spent a million dollars on that uh on the kitchen, correct?

Of which we're paying back, right?

So the city is paying that back.

So ultimately, you have the full force of the city behind any of these catering opportunities.

Which I think is an unfair advantage to Arts Barbecue or uh 21 West End or you know, whoever else you you want to pick.

That's why I in print principally I'm I'm against you guys doing that.

Now I think you make a valid point in terms of the sizes of things.

Maybe there's we have some flexibility there, but I don't believe that this that the city should have give an advantage to an entity that goes out and competes with private business that doesn't have that same advantage.

Well, and and the revenue that I'm like I'm talking about like the hundred thousand dollars I could book immediately right now.

These are requests.

This is not solicitation.

This is request based on our service.

It also expands our reach to be able to bring people in.

There's a lot of companies who you know, maybe they want to have an event because we don't have a ballroom, right?

Um and it's it's it's not a great look to have a very fancy event in a room on a concrete floor.

But they've experienced our catering before and they want us to provide it at another location.

So it's it's a request um of you know what we're seeing, not uh not so much as us going out and directly selling and competing, right?

I mean and it's a way also to get these people into the convention center to book in our center and experience the food and beverage there as well.

You know, I would say I see your point too.

You know, I was thinking um, you know, could we allow it for events over a a certain amount, you know, something like that.

But I I don't want us to discount it entirely because um I I know just with different events I've worked on for the library or for Ake or you know, different things I've done over the years, it's it or wine and roses, it is it's hard to find people uh sometimes that can even do an event for 300.

Um a lot of kitchens just aren't equipped for it and then they've got their regular dinner service.

Or staff as well, or staff.

Um so it's uh something I think we need to think about uh take some time to think about.

George Kemp?

Yes.

So currently, if a group uh say a group of five hundred people book a they're gonna have an audience of five hundred.

We we do have an agreement to do catering for that group or no, we do not.

If as long as it's in the convention center, yes, or b the current agreement for off site catering is we can do it if they have an event booked like within that week.

So for example, we have a convention.

They're at you know, our facility, they decide that they want to have um uh a dinner at the Marshalls Museum.

In this circumstance, we're able to do it because it is tied to their event at the convention center.

If it is a single event that does not have an event at the convention center, the current contract does not allow for that to happen.

Is a phased in approach particularly maybe I don't know that this would gain you much or not, but if we were to propose you have had to book within this year or within the calendar year, you know, whether it's looking forward or back, you have to then a customer of ours to then be able to request on off site catering?

Sure.

We have a lot of, you know, that's an incentive that they would want to book in the building, and then there's an incentive if they want to continue something but don't have to come back, but then because do we have an idea of I mean how many companies in the River Valley do offsite event catering?

Do we have an idea?

There's a lot, and I mean in a lot of um private events and gallas.

Many.

I mean I can probably try to do that.

When you're talking about plan events, I mean would you I mean would you guesstimate that when you're working on a big large event, you are you pulling like within the kind of the same 15?

Oh, I'd say we're probably pulling within the same three to four.

Same three to four.

Okay.

Three to four.

And then you know, there are um you know, restaurants we've wanted to work with in the past, and they'll say, you know, we can't accommodate, you know, we could do for 150, we can't accommodate 300 or or 400, and this is booking maybe a year out.

Um and the staff, I mean the staff is another thing because they oftentimes, you know, a lot of people now are moving their events out to the uh wellness center, the AK, uh, you know, that's where most events are at now.

Um and they have a huge kitchen.

They've got a fabulous kitchen out there, and you can bring anybody in and use it.

Uh but sometimes it is it's hard to find people.

I mean, I I understand completely the argument that um, you know, that there's an unfair advantage with the city funding the kitchen.

I understand that, but you know, if you're if you're looking at an event for you know six or seven hundred people, there's maybe one or two people that can cater that.

So typically what we would do is we would say, do you have availability for this date?

We're expecting this many people, and if they're interested, then you would go for a tasting and you select that way based on price and taste.

So perhaps like that.

Perhaps we put a quantity minimum uh for off-site catering.

You know, you have to be at this level as a minimum for a minimum order.

Um those are another thought to my head.

So I mean are they linked customers?

Are they linked active customers?

Is there is there a threshold that they've met our minimum?

Those are thoughts that are in my I want to make sure I understand uh in the proposal that's in the packet, uh it's got four primary uh amendments or modifications for us to consider.

Uh the first is a modification of the renewal terms, moving from you know five years and then five one year renewals to an eight-year contract and then a two-year renewal, uh permitting the off-site catering, uh establishing the event marketing account, and then uh a study or looking into the monetization of parking.

Correct.

Okay, and so Jeff war Jeff, I suppose the question is for you.

What is sort of the decision uh time frame where we need to uh land the plane on deciding how we're gonna proceed uh with this modification, you know, uh factoring in the conversation we had tonight and you know.

Well, we we certainly can proceed with any or I mean any parts of this agreement um uh in and at any time.

I mean we could we could advance it as it is um for uh approval at a at a next regular meeting or we could um move at the board's at the board's pace or or willingness to proceed and we can have um further discussions on these budget items and such if we if we want to do that in terms of of the entertainment piece uh for for either entity uh and in that case.

Um that that component on the the event marketing account we can uh we could defer to a later date if the board so desire.

How does the board sorry sorry as could the um entertainment fund for that matter it does not um change how we operate at the convention center with or without it especially with um naming rights possibility of sponsorship coming in as well I know I personally would like to see numbers more and more budget talk right because even at 759,226 I have to see it as nine hundred fifty nine thousand two twenty-six meaning I'm seeing that that convention you know I'm taking the if you were to take a fund that we've heard from Bordertown Live if that was created and this I mean we're that's what I was talking about earlier.

It is a stacked look in my head of you know we're we're we're still just under a million dollars and you could argue maybe you just do one and not the other or you come into some sort of negotiation of hey we wish we could do 200 but we could do a hundred or whatever that looks like but I need to know the bigger pieces of the pie.

I I would agree and and I don't know if if you we said budget or like we would go and and put something forward this year on a vote for this but what I would like to do when it does happen, I would like these to be separate items like if I don't want to vote for C, I can discard C or I could we could have a separate vote for C versus all or nothing.

Does that make sense?

Oh yeah we can adjust the agreement I mean this was just put forth based on the information that we talked about.

So Dr.

you're talking about catering separate from parking fees things.

Right.

Okay.

So so if we wanted to do three out of four we could do three out of four we want to do one out of four.

Or one out of five whatever.

What year of the agreement are we in right now?

Let's see it started in twenty twenty one is that correct in the agreement that's correct it was approved in December of twenty twenty and so it started effectively uh January twenty one and I was looking at the term you just asked me that a second ago and the original agreement uh provides for a uh an initial three year term with seven consecutive then one year terms after that so we would be probably in the second going into the third one year term and those are all at the city's option and you know there's provisions you mentioned the the somebody mentioned the investment in the kitchen that was over a 10-year plan and if you know if we opted to opt out of remaining years and we would owe OVG a prorated amount for that investment and those sorts of things.

Okay.

Director Kemp uh to finish his thought and then director Christina could say.

So on the we host a volleyball tournament here I've heard about heard about that.

Are there other sport events that we're we're also hosting?

Is there thoughts about expanding that?

I mean like karate or absolutely we're out there looking for any and all events.

We have um some booking guidelines so definitely what we're trying to secure further out are things that uh incorporate rooms, sleeping rooms, right?

Because it is it's not just about um the revenue that's generated there at the convention center, but how the convention center is used to generate tax revenue in total.

So we are looking at all of that as to see what other events that we can bring in.

We have brought in a couple other dance teams as well.

We've we right now our calendar I will tell you is very full for next year.

From the second week of January through the end of June there's not a solid weekend available.

They're all booked and that's you know with dance, with shows, with volleyball I mean we have a lot of business.

We have several more conventions as well going on next year that we didn't have previously the summertime where it's typically dead in the convention center is looking up we're gonna be you know not dead next year.

So ops is going to have to find other times to do some projects it's gonna have to be selective.

But yes we are looking to your question to fill and bring other events as well as sporting events there to the convention center.

Everything I would just say um with the parking you know we don't need to overcomplicate it or make it too expensive off the bat, you know, for years at the Walt Martin Center before they had those arms that came down you know they had a guy with a traffic cone and uh he took your money and that's what we did at Temple Live as well we just staffed it in the parking lot and that's currently like with the parking that's in here and the built in the budget that's what it is.

You know, they had a guy with a traffic cone and uh he took your money and that's what we did at Temple Live as well.

We just staffed it in the parking lot.

And that's currently like with the parking that's in here and the built-in the budget, that's what it is.

It's staffed with just bodies, not equipment.

Okay.

At this at this point.

I saw the pay stations and things like that.

Yeah, that's that was um, I mean that's in there if we if for a study to evaluate if you're wanting some more information on what that would look like.

OVG can provide a study with what that you know what that um revenue looks like back to the city and the cost.

Thank you.

Just on on that, you know, in terms of the the parking component that's put into this draft.

I mean we had asked uh OBG, because they have I mean OBG has a parking division.

Parking and mobility division.

And so they they involve those folks and we asked them to consider uh helping us either evaluate the use of the parking garage, how we might try to monetize that or or do something in terms of improving how we're using the parking garage.

But I think in for the time being we we they gave us either uh a full-fledged option of doing the of managing the parking garage for us or in the meantime giving us you know just allowing us to use them as a resource for uh things that we might try to do internally ourselves.

I mean that may eventually change if we decide to to do whatever with the parking garage, but I think for the meantime uh would be very I think we'd it'd be to our advantage to take um take advantage of their their expertise in how in the and the plans we have for the parking garage.

And that's at no additional cost that's already included in your management contract.

Right.

As an artist.

I know that that's a service, but then you know sometimes that leads to a really expensive solution.

Uh you know, when you can get a guy in a clipboard and a traffic cone and get going from there.

Now we're bringing the parking garage.

Oh, we said this is why people hate government.

Let's do this.

Oh no, this is not the parking.

This is just uh surface level parking.

Yeah, I know.

Well Jeff was mentioning the parking garage.

Well, I'd say that just because we were looking for solutions and we thought they could they have some folks that might be able to help us and they are willing to do that just for our benefit.

But in terms of the event related to the event parking, that's what they're talking on the surface lots and not necessarily in the garage.

We're just looking for their assistance on the I thought you meant to utilize it for the and our lot is heavily used, especially the well, I would say all of them.

I mean, both hotels use our surface lots all the time.

Um the bakery district is c you know, their patrons use our lot in the theater, so when we have events, it is tough to control.

And sometimes when we have multiple events going on, we do have to put people out there and make sure, hey, are you here for the convention center?

What event are you attending?

And you know, try to prevent other people from parking so that we have enough room for everyone to park because the other part of that lot is used by the city, and which they do a very good job of moving when we when we need them to any other questions or comments for our guests from OVG?

All right, thank you, ladies, for being here.

Appreciate it.

Uh item number three uh is a review of the preliminary 2026 budget comparison summaries.

Uh Jeff, please get us started.

Uh thank you.

I'm gonna ask Andy to come up to the front, maybe.

I don't even see it.

Okay, sorry.

I was looking over here.

Um we did include uh some initial information as we were putting this together on Friday.

I think Andy we we've done some refinement uh since this went out to you uh earlier, and so Andy's gonna pass that around.

But it's it's essentially the same format as what you've seen already, but the numbers are slightly different, and Andy will go over some of the some of those differences.

Um but we are currently starting the review of the departmental budget requests.

Uh we do that typically starting this period of time in September every year uh as we work to roll up the final version of the proposed budget that we will deliver to the board uh in the middle of October.

Uh the board asked us to show some representation of where we start this year.

And that's what that's what this is.

We wanted to show uh uh culmination of all of the department's initial budget requests and to show the board where we start from uh and in terms of then going through the the line by line departmental uh reviews with all of the department heads to uh uh effectively to evaluate what gets left in the budget for proposal to the board uh l in a in a couple of months.

So the that's that's where I will stop at this moment and turn it over to Andy to uh start going through what he's passed out here.

All right.

Sorry about that.

Um yeah, like Jeff said, I mean, we are this is definitely kind of the fluid time right now as far as the numbers and the budget process, but we want to you know kind of show you what we're seeing, uh what we put in the packet uh last Thursday, you know, numbers have already changed somewhat, particularly in the general fund area.

Um look a little better, I think, than what we sent out in the packet.

Um but and we've you know we've we've spent the first couple of days this week uh meeting with some of the individual departments, and we'll continue to do that.

Um so I mean the the reports that we did put out, I mean they don't there's not a lot of detail to every individual department because we're still kind of going through that, but we wanted to the kind of the first step is let's let's kind of compile everything together and see where our starting point is.

And so uh the updated shows that uh you know we're still on track for to end 2025, kind of what we what we amended to during your budget cuts back in May.

So we're still we're a little better there that we've we've projected ending in you know about 21 percent, almost 22 percent contingency reserve on the general fund.

And uh right now with our revenue estimates and our and our projected expenditures, um, you know, we ended at 11.8 percent there.

So I want to point out, I mean, I mentioned this in the memo that we put out with the packet.

Um this the 26 budget, these numbers are kind of a little bit different than what we did last year and what we've done in previous years.

You know, we've always kind of started with a you know baseline budget what we normally do, what we did last year, and then all the new requests and the capital, we we look at those later.

So this we actually added all the capital requests in here and uh and you know anything else.

So, you know, and particularly, you know, I think for comparative purposes, if you look at the FY25 original column for the general fund.

So that was the original base budget.

We had the 5.7 million dollar deficit there.

And then you compare those numbers to what we have for the FY26 budget.

The FY26 budget for the general fund has about $3.7 million in capital requests.

So to make it more comparable there, if you back that out, that percentage at the end of 26 goes up to about 19 percent.

So and it lowers it lowers this 62.4 million dollars of total general fund expenditures by about three and a half million dollars.

So from that standpoint what the departments have submitted as far as expenditures are for normal operating things is uh was fairly conservative compared to what they did submitted, you know, in 25 for the 25 budget.

Um our revenue estimates are down somewhat.

Um we've been tracking about a per you know one percent behind sales taxes for the year.

So that's kind of what we've we've kind of continued that uh stable, you know, last 12 months is what we were predicting for the next budget year and sales taxes.

So we've tried to stay conservative with that.

We hope we hope that see some growth, but we just you know we don't know there's a lot of uncertainty right now nationally, we don't know what it's gonna do locally.

So uh property taxes, we showed the data that we got from the county showed assessments increased what we got last year compared to what we got this time this year increased 10 percent.

kind of what we've we've kind of continued that uh stable you know last 12 months is what we were predicting for the next budget year in sales taxes so we've tried to stay conservative with that we hope we hope to see some growth but we just you know we don't know there's a lot of uncertainty right now nationally and we don't know what it's going to do locally so um property taxes we showed the data that we got from the county showed assessments increased what we got last year compared to what we got this time this year increased 10 percent so we we are building in a 10 percent property tax revenue increase um for all those funds uh in this in this budget so that that doesn't include the reassessment that they've just recently sent out yeah that that's why we felt comfortable in increasing that property tax number by 10 percent was because of that as well because of that yes sir i I'm wondering if well 10 percent may be maybe right on I I just know a lot of people are getting significantly raised property values which is is pretty interesting.

It could be higher than 10 percent.

Go ahead.

Sure.

So you know I you know I guess my just my my point is I think the starting point where we're at is um we're not sing we're not we're budgeting normal operating not significantly more than what we did last year.

I mean all the amended and the projected you know we did a lot of one time things there's you know you you'll see larger intergovernmental revenues.

That's because we had a reimbursement for capital.

Those are a lot of kind of non-reoccurring things that you that happen you know I'm trying to point out this is what our normal operating activities are and I think you know we're we're not we're not far off from what we what we were doing in 25 but you know we 25 we had a 5.7 million dollar shortfall in the budget um you know I'm showing 8.9 here that's got capital built in so right back there I'm right back in the five million dollar deficit range and so that's what we if we want to balance this 26 fiscal year that's what we got to make up to really get you know to to really get that back.

If you want to balance normal revenues and normal current operating expenditures to me that's what we've got to make up.

So that's the the work that's cut out for us.

Can you say that number again how much was that?

I mean it's just I'm I'm saying just a rough it's probably about 5.2 million deficit.

I mean I'm just I'm I'm eyeballing but that's that's where we've got to go.

Right and as he stated you know this is before we have we've got we've got the a couple of the smaller departments.

We have three of the larger departments some improvement there.

And so thank you.

Director Martin Yeah so when I when I originally looked at this and the looking at the FY26 budget, we've got to come positive I think on in the general fund.

We've got to be positive in 26 in the general fund.

We had a big spend in 24 uh some of that carried over into 25.

So we're feeling we're feeling that the our internal our external auditors expressed that concern.

I think we all feel that but I think it's it's I think it's highly important for us in in 26 to ensure that we don't fall under that 20 percent threshold of uh fund balance.

So you know I uh I wrote down the well I've I've the the numbers that were presented to us that I have on my on my iPad here just that spend as it looks at that point I d uh that's not sustainable.

What we've got here is not sustainable and I know that that includes the the all the capital all the news either way you cut it it's not sustainable.

Right yes it's not sustainable.

So we we as a board, especially on the general fund side and you know obviously water and sewer um we've got to make sure that we are positive so that if we end the year at 21 point six percent of contingency reserve that we're not dipping underneath that and and we may and it also that we're growing that.

I mean we were at you know we we were at into 24, 52 percent and which is probably a little high.

But yes.

We want to make sure that we're in the 20 to 30 range I think is that's comfortable for me.

I think if we're if we're if we're managing under the policy that's been set, that what we talked about the 20 percent policy, the way I read it, I mean yes we want to we want to balance this budget for sustainability long term purposes.

Yep.

Right.

The way the policy says, if we're at 20 percent, we don't we don't have it says we don't cut anything.

We don't we're okay.

But you can't do anything capital-wise or non-re you can't do anything special, can't make any investments until you get above twenty-five.

That's how I read the policy.

So we're so we really need to live, like you said, in that twenty-five to thirty percent range under the policy that that's been established.

Right, which means that we've again, you know, we've we've we've done some, you know, as as we we did our our budget cuts uh you know earlier this year, and you know, we've had some things come to us.

I think we've got to be really uh diligent about um, you know, if if diligent about saying no where we need to say no.

Um and you know having to I don't know what the right word is, but just make sure that we are uh holding the line on our general fund spending in 25 and in 26.

A lot of times that doesn't mean uh there's not a lot of bells and whistles there that we can do, but it it uh the good is for you you're doing that for 27 and 28 and having uh a little more flexibility in some of those areas.

So I think that's what we've got to we've got to be really mindful of.

Uh general fund was the thing that that hit on me uh the most.

Um I did have some concerns about our projected um rate or uh our projected revenues for water and sewer.

Those looked down and and and so we had a we had a water rate increase in middle of twenty-four, and we're we're having all of twenty-five to the that it's already in and in all of twenty-five.

We had a three and a half percent sewer rate increase to keep up with cost of inflation, those kinds of things over the the next couple of years, and also in accordance with the EPA or our our hopefully our negotiation uh negotiation with the EPA.

But our water sales and sewer sales went down as it relates to our original projections.

And so our our 25 budget or yeah, our 25 budget originally was 39 million in water sales, 31 million in sewer sales, yet we were 37 we're projecting 37 million in water and 30 million sewer.

Do you do you believe that that is the natural correction of a water rate increase?

Water rate, sewer rates go up, people use less water.

I'm still looking at those revenue estimates.

I mean, I have spent some time with that, but yes, I mean I believe what's been projected here is, you know, price elasticity or however you want to call it.

But I mean I think and we have we have we did see that, you know.

I've I saw that in the billings when I was looking at, you know, earlier in the year, January through May, I was watching to see how it was being affected.

Um the volume was down.

Volume was down.

Volume's been down.

Um, you know, I need to go back and study it some more and see, you know, but I think that's what we're seeing in these the projection and the numbers that we've got here is 3.5 percent rate increase that's supposed to be effective January 1 for sewer is is reflected in this, but we're s but we're showing a decrease in volume.

So volume down and rev and revenue down.

Right.

That's interesting.

Um I uh I guess you don't you don't get in here and see uh we couldn't estimate out the uh oh what's the word I used uh uh over and over in 20 uh this year um the uh oh the debt service coverage ratio's coverage I haven't calculated that yet.

I mean you know you'll see there is a big there's um there's capital and maintenance built into these into the twenty-six budget here, so um you know there's a about a ten million dollar increase in the operating line, and that's primarily because of maintenance and capital requests.

So that's not gonna be reflective there, but yeah, we will we will get to that, yeah.

And and I think it might be behoove us now at this point.

I guess I guess here at the end of the month, we'll be getting projections from you for the end of third quarter.

So I'm I'm very interested in seeing that projected uh debt service coverage ratio.

The only other thing that I would say, just kind of from a general perspective, is spending seems high in a lot of these.

Um I was making my notes here.

Spending uh revenue and and and expenditures uh I'll probably just say expenditures high uh for 26.

So I think the board needs to really consider that as we go into budget season.

I like the our approach to budget now, where I think the board is is having more say up front rather than city administration.

I think that's a good move on our part, and I think this is the starting point for us to be able to say we've got to we've got a we've got to lower expenditures and uh and bring fund balances up.

Mr.

Dangley, you are recognized.

Thank you.

And I agree with all that you just said there.

I mean, the uh you say you know you reference you know expenditures are high.

Well, what this is is they're all of their initial budget requests, and the board did did ask that we include things like all the capital requests.

Can we talk about trucks and parks that we haven't been able to replace for a number of years and things like that that um the board hasn't necessarily seen as we have typically gone through this and sanitized it or right size it or downsized it before the board sees it initially?

And so that would that certainly was the objective here, and and I just I feel like I need to say it over and over again.

This is our starting point.

And uh we hope to be in we when we our intent, our goal is to but is to uh present a balanced budget.

I don't I mean that's that's what we're shooting for.

Well, well, I I know in the in the past, and just for folks in the craft, in the past, I think we talked about it on our on our all-day session.

In the past, the budget was presented to us.

You know, it's it's supposed to take in take into account our our goals and objective things we talked about all year.

I think we're flipping that a little bit where the board is getting in front of that and speaking into that more before we actually get a budget.

So I think that's I think it's good.

I think it speaks to uh the the governing body kind of uh making those decisions up front rather than kind of having to work those things out later.

So I like this approach a lot better.

And and I've I might add to that.

I like the idea that uh when we pres when we present a budget then I mean with with the board's input as we've as we've done here, when we ultimately present one, it includes the things that we know we need.

So uh we I don't I'm hoping we don't get into a situation where we present a base budget and then a new needs budget, because for the last two years we've not been able to consider the new needs.

We just haven't.

And so that's why those types of things got deferred for positions or capital or or specific programs.

Uh what I what I'm intending for, I mean it I realize everything I'm saying right here is a tall order to present a balanced budget that is the is the proposed city budget, not the base budget plus then a new needs budget.

I'm I'm hoping that we can present one that covers all of those bases.

It will be a it will be a hard thing to do.

Well, and and and I I I guess my thought process would be some of these new needs would replace other priorities that may be existing on the board or in the budget today.

So, you know, we I think Director Katzavis or Christina Ketzapis was talking about a zero-based budget.

Something new might replace something that's already existing, right?

And so um it's not just piling on, piling on.

It's what what works, what doesn't, remove it, put something in its place.

Well, and maybe even if it's not works, maybe if it's not even that it isn't working, it's just we've prioritized something else.

Okay, thank you.

Um Director Rigo.

Uh Director Kemp.

That was first.

Okay.

Director Kemp be recognized.

Thank you, Mayor.

Good to have you here tonight, too.

Uh I uh want to say uh the phrase I have heard and I feel it is what we did in previous years, we're carrying in and we're trying to build from that.

But I think the thing that I've heard across this board, and I want to bring it to light before we get into Thursday or other budgeting conversations is we're actually not wanting to do that.

We're not we need to I think remember the the discussion that started back when we had the study session of the senior center was uh a zero-based budget or a priority or looking at this with fresh perspective again.

And so as much as I can appreciate what we've done in previous years, I think we are, as we get through these conversations piece by piece, looking at what do we need to do with the new beginning here, reimagining that.

And none of that we're gonna have to look at what we've done in the past.

I guess one thought that probably can't be answered tonight, but I would love to know the answer as well is how have we grown our staff in the City of Fort Smith since 2015?

You know, we talked about right sizing the city staff to to the structure of the dollars that we have.

I'm assuming we've added a lot of positions since 2015.

I mean, obviously that is going to be a linchpin for what you can do with your budget.

If you're going to retain this much staff, staff need items and they go to work and they have paychecks and benefits.

And so I would love to know that, especially when we get to each specific department, because my hunch is that some departments have had the same size staff since 2015, and then some departments have swelled greatly.

And then I think we need to ask: is that needed going forward?

And I think that's to me a shift.

And I think we're looking at a sizable pullback here.

Are you advocating layoffs?

I am advocating right sizing our budget.

I mean, if we're going to budget a deficit by continuing to keep staff where there may be excess, uh, that's not financial conservative.

I mean, I think we can reposition some staff potentially.

So I don't think it's necessarily advocation of layoffs.

But uh I think if we do owe ourselves to ask, how have we how have we sized up as a church as a city within our staff?

One of the best places to do that is the external audit.

So I'd encourage you to pull that up tonight, and you can go look, you gotta look in the back.

It's one of the appendices.

But you can see city staffing by department over 10 years.

It's really interesting to look at.

Yes.

I would love that.

Okay.

I'll look into that.

And I think to me, a priority shift uh as we've talked about here, uh, because if if we don't entertain any layoff consideration at all, then at this point, how can you not uh budget a deficit?

You'll have to budget a deficit.

And you can also look at this through attrition as well, if it rather than layoffs, you could look at things through attrition from a somebody leaves.

It's never been filled.

And I think if we do this well for a year or two, we will see all our all our funds right size back, and then we can go forward.

I think 2024 had a lot of spending wrapped to it.

And so we'll see that built back.

That's just my thoughts.

Thank you.

Okay.

Uh Jeff.

No, uh to that point Director Kent just made.

I mean, we are in some of the discussions we have had in our strategies strategic workshop and things like that.

We are looking also at some staff reorganization and things like that to present and along with this uh budget this fall as well.

Okay.

Director We go.

Thank you, Mayor.

Um I just wanted to ask a clarifying question, uh, two of them actually, but separate things.

So if we look at this slide that's up here, uh water sales actual on the far left in 2024 were 31 a hair over 31.4 million dollars, correct?

So whether it's the original budget of 39.5, the amended at 39.5, the projected at 37, or what we're trying to project into the future at 38, I mean it's a not insignificant, I mean it's a substantial increase, whichever one of those numbers you pick compared to what was actually collected in 2024, correct?

That's right.

So I mean that it's a way to look at it is to say there's 1.288 increase, but I mean the real actual year-over-year change for this year in particular, I mean, is is a substantial one because of the rate adjustment that was made.

And so you made a uh you pointed out about some volumetric data you have seen, and that's interesting, and it's it's definitely part of the conversation, the calculus moving forward, but there is a substantially larger amount of money that has come in this year versus last year because of the action that we took.

That's right.

We're not realizing the entire increase that we thought we would realize because of the volume, but yes, it is substantially more than what we were collecting in 24 and previous.

And then the the separate question I had when is the last time, to the best of your knowledge, if ever, that we have been that a board has been presented with a balanced budget?

Um I think balanced in the way that it's been described tonight, which is to say, you know, that the excess revenues over expensive.

Yeah.

And thinking in terms of just general fund, I I mean, I think five or six years ago, the base budget was, or it was very close.

But you know, we've seen you know, we've seen inflation creep in, you know, as far as our costs, and of course, we've added employees and other things there, but it wasn't, you know, it wasn't like over a decade ago, I don't think.

It's been, you know, if we look back five or six years at the budgets, I think they were balanced.

Okay.

Thank you.

Any other question?

Director Kim.

Andy, maybe we could even as we get into these budget talks.

One of the things I always we talk about in the nonprofit world at the church, uh, we were like, you know, in so many cases we saw forecasting that our revenues were going to go up, and so prosperity was around the corner.

We had to make it to the corner.

Speaking mainly to COVID uh and what we had experienced there.

And we did see that.

And we we made some tough moves there.

But in some ways, prosperity is around the corner, greater prosperity in the sense of big retailers moving in and things of that nature.

Uh even if we could know an idea of what that will look like.

I know that's not going to actualize it at the beginning of the fiscal year, and some ways it might maybe towards the middle of the year.

But as we talk about this as well, I'd love to know that.

You know, how much of that prosperity is around the corner.

And do we have an idea of what that looks like in actualization of dollars?

I mean, we've we've been seeing, we've been watching building permits and billing activity, you know, for the past couple of years hit you know record numbers.

And you know, our sales tax base has been stable during that time.

We've been talking about the FMS project.

It was probably delayed a little bit.

There's you know, it brings more people to the area and other other employers and businesses to the area to serve that whole operation, you know, it's off the ground, but you know, I don't think that I don't think that the city or as far as our finances have seen realize the impact of that yet or at least to the full extent.

So, you know, we've been kind of waiting for that.

I'm not gonna project that into this budget until I st until we start seeing things moving.

But yeah, I mean you think, you know, we would think that we there's gonna be some growth soon.

And I think you know, I don't think I'm advocating when I hear numbers like a billion dollar economic year impact.

Yeah, but that's not a billion dollars in equ in sales use tax money.

That's where your everyday citizens sitting here thinking about well, what is a billion dollar economic year impact look like to the actual city budget?

Right.

You know, I think just a question in my head.

Director Cassavage.

You know, one of the reasons that I was advocating for the zero-based or priority-based budget was because I know we have some departments that they put in for positions that have been open for over a year.

I mean, I think utilities has maybe 40 open positions that have all been open for over a year.

Would it be unreasonable for us to see a budget with eliminating um the line items for those positions?

Because uh, you know, presumably if they've gone a year without being filled, we can go without them.

Right.

Would that be unreasonable to see what that looks like before we start talking about putting people out of work and laying them off?

No, we can get that done.

We can put that together.

All right.

Uh because I've been curious to see what that looks like citywide for some time because it's a lot of money we budget for positions that have been open for quite some time.

Yeah.

Well, we prepare to be at like 90% of our budgeted positions, I think it's been kind of what we've been seeing right lately.

Thank you.

Any other questions?

Thank you.

All right.

Okay.

At this time, I'm sure you reviewed a preliminary agenda.

May I ask a qu may I ask a question, Mayor?

Yes, yeah.

What um I know there's not uh I or if there has been, I've missed it.

What uh are you envisioning, Jeff, for Thursday evening?

What kind of format are we gonna have?

What uh for the budget meeting Thursday evening.

You know, that is a uh a moving target still.

Um we we were frankly at you know, we w when we st should start getting into a little bit more of the uh what what budgets have been presented by the departments and how they're broken out and what types of things they do include.

Um just for the just for the board's information.

I don't necessarily know that we uh uh intend any sort of in-depth dive of those other than we might have some more department specific type of information to share at that point.

Um I'll leave that to the discretion of the board if there's a particular things that you do want to see.

Uh we can certainly try to provide that.

But uh for now the uh there is a special study session Thursday uh 5 30 right here um to discuss you know just to discuss the the proposed budget as a whole.

I mean we gave sort of the top level overview here.

Uh we can get into any any more specific I mean we hadn't started talking a little bit about revenues and and projections on volume and those sorts of things, which are all types of things that we would typically work through September to refine before we showed to you.

But I mean it's it's helpful for you to see that those types of things and where we start.

And so if there's specific ideas that you want to see, we can certainly try to bring those.

Well one of the things Carl did that one year that I thought was interesting is we had a kind of had that overall spreadsheet up and we could adjust on the fly and see you do this, this is what happens everywhere elsewhere.

I don't know.

I mean, you did that once we were at the police station and and and kind of worked through that.

I thought that was uh kind of interesting.

I don't I mean, we're two days away from it.

So Jeff, can I ask you a quick I mean, is this meeting Thursday too soon?

I mean, I what I don't want to do is come in and every question is like we'll have to look into that.

You know, I mean, is it is it better to let staff chew on this before we have an actual meeting on this?

In in my opinion, yes.

I mean, this this level this type of discussion here I think is I think meets my expectation of what I wanted to do for the board anyway, show you sort of where we start with the budget.

Um but I like I said I don't know off the top of my head right now what in addition we would show you on Thursday that is different than the discussion.

I I would find that frustrating.

So you know, I think if we're if if it's better to wait to a time period that you can designate, I just don't want to see a spin our wheels here and we've all taken time to be here and staff taking time to be here.

I don't understand why we got an email requesting us to be available for these dates if we're not prepared.

Well, my understanding is the board wanted to have m more meetings, and I and I I don't know specifically what the board's expectation was for those.

And so um you know that was the intent was to try to schedule as much time to meet as the board would want.

And but I like I said, as this this is a little unusual for us as well in terms of we don't have refined budgets to show you.

We we can provide you the types of you know the information that the departments submitted, but uh um there's there's a lot of work to do.

Let's get started.

This is gonna be an opportunity to maybe start talking about some of what our properties are in terms of the actual dollars.

Um I don't know if we could get into that, but you know, looking at hey, maybe we don't uh and I don't want to get too down in the weeds on it, but you know, in general, do we want to allocate more dollars to uh uh w w uh w waterline replacement.

And does that mean we drop some dollars of this part of uh super fund?

You know, do we do we get into those types of things where actually saying, you know, I I think we need more people in neighborhood services.

So where do we have to offset that on in the general fund, those types of things?

I just if you don't we will at least have to know how many FTE open slots exist within a department that are unfulfilled as uh Director Kushnik Sav has talked about, I agree.

If there is, you know, 40 spots that are open or is it is it higher, is it lower?

You know, when we talk about readjusting or pulling back without me being in the day-to-day operations of this, it's hard for me to know where to tug on that.

Uh I mean, obviously we can we can frame those priorities, but we could have also just done that on a on the next study session on a Tuesday night.

So I think if if we're gonna talk about this, we're gonna have to know where we are with employees.

Because I feel like this most of what we do as a government is employee heavy.

And so I think we're gonna have to have those answers, otherwise you're gonna have a whole lot of kind of circling back.

Would there be a way for since this is likely not to be the only meeting on Thursday?

You know, the not the only one of these we're going to do, would there be a way to just start with, say, the three largest or the three you know biggest cost center departments and we can, you know, you can show us kind of where you all are starting at.

We can be prepared, you know, uh that way staff could be prepared to, you know, uh uh make adjustments or answer questions on the fly that that talk about you know hypothetical adjustments.

Okay, you know, if if it's Department X and those people are here and they're prepared and the finance folks are prepared and okay, if we change this, what would that do rather than you know coming into it with a huge scope Thursday night if we just say, well, let's just try and talk about you know the top three initially.

And so there's gonna and then we also have you know just in terms of talking about the overall staffing levels and the trends that were mentioned in terms of having vacant positions for a period of time.

And also in terms of how do we still compete in the marketplace.

And where we have evaluated our salary structure against you know competitors in the region and th those sorts are you know some you know peer communities and other corporations that are paying employees who are we losing our employees to if they're leaving us how do our salaries stack up to that.

So and so then there's some there's some discussion to be had around the the uh the holistic sort of employee world also.

Well I I would say some of those things are interesting.

However there are some things like costs of materials or insurance costs that we have very little over versus things like okay if if we're looking at a set number of departments in a given meeting and we see how many open you know budgeted positions there are, we can make an adjustment on that.

We can make adjustments on equipment, you know, because you've talked and we appreciate it that in this document you provided us tonight you built in it includes some of the ongoing equipment needs we can decide like okay yes we do definitively want to move forward in department X with you know this number of trucks or this number of you know backhoes or what have you I think those are the things while some of what you're talking about is very interesting and is good for us to have in the macro sense in my opinion you know the the insurance costs, there's going to be a very I think more limited range of what we can do decisionally versus things like budgeting for overall positions or or budgeting for equipment.

And so I I mean I just I think if we can decide to somewhat limit the scope per hearing, you know, we can be the most productive per hearing and staff can be prepared.

I was thinking you know we would kind of go department by department and start with the departments that we have to fund first.

I mean we have to fund police.

We have to fund fire.

Could we start with them and go from there?

But are we are we advocating cuts on those departments?

I mean usually we we've usually we've approved those no no one's talking about cuts.

We're talking about the budget.

But I want to talk about a cut somewhere.

So we're talking about a budget meeting what their needs are what I mean I I would suggest that we give our staff ample time to address your questions and what you really need I've heard a lot of information.

Will we be giving them adequate time to do the work to come back with what you're looking for.

You know in in two days that's and keep in mind they still have their day-to-day work they have to do.

So let's be mindful of the staff and the kind of work we asking them to do.

Certainly we want to get it done and come up with good solutions to what we're trying to do.

But I think we need to keep them in mind as we proceed.

So are are we planning to continue with a budget meeting in two days or not?

I mean I assume most of the departments have been putting their budget together for our review.

Is that is that not ready for review?

They have put their budgets together and submitted them to finance and the finance department is rolling them up into an overall budget which this is the sort of the first sort of spit out of that as these documents that we've shared.

But could I mean could we go could we pick you know some of the departments that have to be funded, start there first, see what their budget is that they've put together and review that department by department.

I mean could we start that on because I thought by the email we got saying could we be available this week that it was ready to go.

That was my understanding.

I mean I don't think that's a terrible idea at all because if if we were we were presented a number tonight that says you know for this first crack you know to what Andy said about and Jeff said about this being you know the first step, you know, a 62 point four million dollar expenditure.

So some things have gone into that to make it up.

And if we're trying to get somewhere between five and eight million dollars, you know, uh address that shortfall, I think it would be productive to start with you know the two public safety and then the you know the biggest uh ticket department otherwise, and just see how much of that 62 point four is made up of those three departments in this example, and then we do begin to see you know what goes into that, you know, what was the equipment that's been asked for at you know the public safety level.

Not that I think most or any of us would uh disagree with it or go against it, but just have a awareness about it.

And then when you leave from public safety and your biggest spender, when you leave from that meeting, you go, okay.

Well, here's kind of the X dollar amount that we know is pretty essential and immovable, uh, and then you move forward in subsequent meetings and go, okay, well, here's here's where we actually have more ability, more room to make adjustments.

Um I think it would hopefully be doable and and sensible and and timely uh and productive to at least have a review of public safety and and whatever the biggest spend department is after that.

Well, I would agree with that because if if we don't if we don't have an accurate picture of what has to be funded, we don't know how much we have left to spend on the other departments.

General fund.

Start at the general fund level and go from that.

I'm good with that.

I mean, and so Jeff, is that is that doable for you and the finance and the stand and the you know department heads in those three departments to the sense of being productive and helpful on Thursday?

Because I do agree with Director Kemp that you know I think it would be a horrible misuse of everyone's time to assemble and then have a lot of, well, we don't know, we gotta we gotta come back, we gotta come back, we've got to come back.

Well we can certainly show you what's been requested in terms of the budget request, and you can see it.

Yeah, I think that's a good start.

I thought that was the point of doing it this way was that we see it when you see it before it gets refined so that we're part of the refinement process.

That was my understanding of what was going to be different this year.

So what do we see?

What is it?

General fund.

Thursday.

Yep.

General fund and public safety starting with public safety.

Next.

Good.

530.

Yes.

Sherry, how many signed up?

Did everyone want to take a look at the preliminary uh agenda for September 16th?

Okay.

All right.

At this time we will go to the citizens forum.

First, we have Kim Fodge.

Yeah.

It's not going to be a full five minutes.

Is that one work?

Yeah, put bots on the budget.

Can you hear me?

Okay.

Um I just wanted to talk about neighborhood services.

Uh in my capacity as a volunteer for my neighborhood, um, I have to call on them frequently for questions and concerns about uh maintenance issues, city ordinances.

And I just want to say they are one of the most professional group of people I've had to deal with regarding topics that can sometimes be difficult and hard.

Um in particular, I want to address Karen.

Um I'm not sure what her last name is, but she's always so very helpful, very knowledgeable of city ordinances and things that the city can do to help us with some property maintenance issues and other concerns that we may have.

So I just wanted to take that time to thank that department for their help uh with our concerns we have and also for their professionalism on such difficult topics to take care of.

So that's all I have to say.

Thank you very much.

Madam Clerk.

Thank you.

Next we have Noah Hansen.

I'm Noah Hanson.

I'm uh I wanted to talk a little bit about homelessness and homelessness alleviation.

Uh I'm a professor and a researcher and focus some of my research on homelessness and mental health concerns.

Um I've done research and I've been involved with homelessness outside of Fort Smith and a couple different places, and then over the past four years here in the Arkansas River Valley.

I teach at uh at Ake and I um do uh I'm involved with uh Hope Campus as well as the local COC.

And I when I when I came to Arkansas River Valley, one of the things that I wanted to kind of address or look at is some of the things that we're actually doing really well here in the Arkansas River Valley.

So uh compared to other places that I've been, the the first and foremost, the thing that I would say is the Fort Smith Police Department is is incredible in the work that they do and the way that they handle really difficult situations as well as other emergency services as well.

Um I know there's a lot of needs and a lot of desires and um opinions about how to handle things and and emergency services in the police department have have always been incredible in how they've uh dealt with pretty delicate and situations with with compassion and professionalism.

Um the other thing that that I think is challenging in the Arkansas River Valley is there are some persistent misconceptions about homelessness that uh create conflict sometimes when there when there's not uh there doesn't have to be conflict.

Um one of the positives about the Arkansas River Valley is there's a lot of people at the table.

So not that necessarily there's agreement, but there are a lot of people that are interested from diverse backgrounds, whether that's from business or from city government, from emergency services, as well as service provision, which is really helpful because uh when you look at how to create solutions, there has to be everybody at the table.

Um but some of those misconceptions um one is that providing services increases homelessness.

So this is a concept that's been uh I hear a lot whenever we uh in different places, this is not unique to Fort Smith or to the Arkansas River Valley, but that providing increased services will in turn increase the number of individuals that are seeking those services.

And a couple of things that have to be kept in mind, and and that goes so far as to say sometimes people indicate there's individuals traveling even great distances to uh make use of these services.

And the the data just doesn't bear that out.

So the individuals that we serve at Hope Campus and at other service provision locations are um are not traveling great distances.

Sometimes what happens is when you even converse individually with people is that they have stories of how they arrived at Fort Smith.

Um and I would say that sometimes how they arrived might be ill-advised, meaning that they thought that they had a job lined up or there was a family member that had something for them and it fell through.

Um and maybe from our perspective we could look at it and go, well, maybe that wasn't the best decision, but the way that they arrived was not intending to make use of services.

It was intending to make use of an opportunity here in the Arkansas River Valley.

Um the other thing too is that we uh like everywhere in the world, here in Fort Smith, we haven't solved the problems that are continually providing churn of new people that are experiencing homelessness.

So poverty and housing issues are things that everywhere we're dealing with.

And so for every person that that the service provisions help to overcome homelessness, there's another person that very quickly is finds himself in difficulty.

Um and so uh, you know, sometimes service provision does make homelessness more visible, uh, which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing.

I know it's something we have to deal with, and certainly I've I have uh compassion for those uh particularly business owners that struggle because of the day-to-day challenges of dealing with with street homelessness and chronic homelessness, but it's not something that uh that the visibility is something that just allows us to deal with it.

It isn't necessarily that's actually increasing in volume.

Um the other thing too is that the difference between enabling and helping.

So I hear a lot sometimes that we're enabling individuals and creating uh a process that is a churn that we we're not really addressing the issue.

Um but all the service provision that I'm involved with, I I you know there are people that have great needs and individuals that have both uh difficulty from an internal perspective as well as situationally have difficult times.

Um and they have great need for help, um, but it is not an enabling.

It is uh that sometimes we don't quite reach fully the help that they need, and they go back in that process of of still needing uh additional help.

Okay, thank you.

Okay.

Oh, you finished.

Well, I was just gonna say that the the two three things real quick that from my research that that we need to do, and I would hope that the city directors would be open to hearing is that solutions have to be local, meaning they have to be based in Fort Smith, not what they're doing in Portland or what they're doing in Milwaukee or even what they're doing in Fayetteville.

It has to be a Fort Smith solution.

We have to have collaboration, meaning everybody has to be at the table, and we have to be persistent in the solutions.

That we can't just have uh you know lump sum of money and then it solves a problem, it's over years.

So I appreciate the time.

Okay, thank you very much.

Next we have Patrick Morris.

So my name is Patrick Maris, and uh it's actually on similar subject as Noah.

Uh I'm here to speak about Hope Campus and the positivity.

Uh I was in an active addiction from 17 to 32.

Uh I came here and I was around in town and stuff, and I just and I ended up catching a charge for being too loud on the street.

No big deal.

Because the reason that I actually started using the services at Hope Campus was was because Judge Grimes co-ordered me there.

Uh I'd been around and I'd ate at Hope Campus and used the overflow beds and but I was just I wasn't ready for the services yet.

Uh but through just circumstance, I was court-ordered, and as soon as I started what I guess I had to use the services, I realized that they were needed.

Uh that Hope Campus is a place that people that are drugged down and hurt can become successful, can add things to their lives and can get the things that they need so that they can become successful.

And I mean it's it's been amazing there.

Uh it was and it still is.

Uh so 17 to 32 active addiction.

Uh as soon as the court order came within about six months uh I stopped using.

And actually two days ago was my two-year mark of clean.

So uh and I I appreciate that so much, but I just I want to uh emphasize on the fact that if I wouldn't have been at Hope Campus, that it would have been a lot harder.

Uh the people there, even the homeless people there.

There's so many people there that are just good people that are stuck in chronic homelessness, mental health issues, uh addiction, and I just it's not a bad of a place as people might think.

You know, uh contrary to popular belief, there's a lot of success that comes from Hope Campus.

Uh and all you know what we have dealt with uh here recently, and I don't think that I I spoke on that, but I yeah, I've been working at Hope Campus for about two and a half years.

So we've dealt with some some heaviness.

And you go there now?

No, sir.

Uh I've actually had an apartment for almost two years.

So I've been December 18th will be two years.

Uh thank you.

And I actually and uh uh you know I've got a vehicle.

Uh another big thing is is that in my seven years of homelessness uh never lost the custody of my kids, but I was absent and because of Hope Campus, because of the work that I was able to do and the people that helped me restructure my life, which Judge Grimes, the guidance center Valley, uh Hope Campus, even police officers that were there at the right time just to talk to me and and help me out, uh, you know, I wouldn't be here, but my son's been here for over a year.

And uh he came from a tough place, uh a tough town, and now because of Hope Campus, uh me being able to have those those uh services and the people around there, now my son's getting the the father that he ultimately deserved, right?

And I just uh in the two years that I've worked there and then the time before uh everything grows and growth has pain and then it has all kinds of great things to it as well.

But in the time, honestly, it's it's growing.

And what I mean by that is the way that we're handling things, the way that things are being dealt with, uh the just the people there, you know, and it's it's been great.

It really has, and there's just a misconception and a bad idea about homeless people in general, you know.

Uh, but there's a lot of really good people that are there now that I've known for multiple years that if they lose Hope Campus, they lose their hope.

And I just I just wanted to emphasize on the the success that Hope Campus can bring.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Next we have Dan Williams.

All right.

Real quick, I was here uh the other night, and I know that uh Mr.

McGill, you had mentioned that I could uh email y'all, but I was just gonna lay leave it alone about the noise mitigation thing.

Uh but I did I did get a little bit more information.

Okay, good.

And so I do have a question.

Did someone from the city board tell the school board that they didn't have to come up with 400,000 dollars for the grant.

I'm not aware of any conversation.

Okay.

Because that's what I heard.

I heard that they voted it because someone from the school from the city board said that they wouldn't have to come up with the money, the school wouldn't have to pay for it, that the city was gonna pay for it.

I don't know.

Are you saying that they're not gonna pay for it?

That's that's just what I heard.

I don't think there's anything.

Okay, I just want to find it.

I I think we understood that somebody's gonna have to outlay dollars, and that would be the school board or the school system that would do it.

Yeah.

Okay.

So I just wanted to verify that because that's that's what I heard.

So and I was here at the meeting before whenever last year when they talked about it and was brought up that the school was gonna pay the 400,000 dollars to do it.

Okay.

So y'all are saying that the city's not paying that, right?

Okay.

And clerk.

Next we have Chris Cadelli.

Thank you for the opportunity to uh have a chance to voice some concerns.

Um last week we learned about a new water infrastructure need facing the citizens here in Fort Smith, and it sounds like it's yet another estimated half billion dollars, give or take in water infrastructure improvements.

Uh of course, this is on top of the half billion or so that's required for the descent uh the consent decree uh obligations.

So I'm just wondering where where's the funding for for all this newly announced critical infrastructure work going to come from.

This comes after the water and sewer rate hikes just last year.

Uh many folks are already struggling with water bills that in some cases resemble a car payment.

Another concern I have uh is a couple weeks ago we uh learned about the state of our police patrol cars just last month.

Uh Chief Baker said the department was experiencing uh constant vehicle woes and having to make do.

Um he also advised the board that one of the most common complaints from his officers is the lack of decent vehicles uh to patrol in.

Um you know, as a concerned citizen, this is this is tough to hear.

Um it's particularly hard to understand, you know, why we have officers having to make do when we have 4.2 million dollars in water slide parts scattered on the ground out at Ben Garren.

And that's really hard to make, you know, it's really hard to reconcile that as a citizen.

Um so uh I'm guessing you know, 4.2 million probably would have bought most, if not all, of the fleet of uh patrol units.

Um you know, that 4.2 million dollars most certainly is not a drop in the bucket.

Uh and this is another example, the toll misplaced priorities can take on a city.

Thank you.

Next we have Bill Kinkanen.

Hi.

I appreciate being here.

Uh no most of you are met most of you.

We had an incident.

I represent Sisterna Villa, which is one of the subdivisions out at Darby Landing and Mazhard.

We had a incident August 15th, which is 25 days ago.

And I made a phone call to uh City Street.

We had it was a couple of our residents that are here with me noticed that one of our after the sanitation services went through that we've now got a sunken hole in an alleyway.

This is what I looked at building.

Yes.

Yeah.

And I forwarded you those pictures.

I don't know if everybody else has had a chance to see those or not, but uh it's very obvious that it's the weight of the sanitation trucks that have caused the problem.

And not only has the asphalt sunken down, but uh it's probably it's probably done some things to the way the drainage comes out of the houses into that area uh underneath that asphalt.

And I called Street Department and they were very gracious.

I called Matt and uh he had Billy Butler call me back and he did it immediately.

And uh said that you know that wasn't part of their deal.

So at that point I called uh Mitchell Parker, who is in charge of sanitation collection services, and man, he was he was in the area, so he came out, it was like 15 minutes, he came out and looked, uh very gracious to do so so quickly.

He expedited that very quickly.

He said he would have to get uh Dwayne McDonald, the director of the Department of Solid Waste Services involved, just so happened that he was available, so he got out there that same day, uh, gave me a card and said he would get back with us, he'd run it up the chain and well it's 25 days ago.

And I have we haven't heard anything.

Okay.

So we've got an alleyway that's pretty well uh unusable to a couple of driveways, residents getting in and out, they're having to go over this sunken down.

I don't know if you all have seen the pictures, but you know, it's sunken down like this.

And we need some help.

Jeff, what do you think?

There is a and I apologize if this hasn't been shared with you, but upon upon learning of this, I mean the there is a plat when the when Sisterna Villa was developed, there was a plat presented, and on the plat, it specifies I mean because the the route the collection of the solid waste was was built as prescribed and requested by the developer on that plat, it says that the the and it contemplates this very thing, and it says the City of Fort Smith and the Solid Waste Department won't be responsible for replacing the alleyways that and and it specifically mentions due to the weight of this of the sanitation vehicles.

And so there is that to deal with because that was contemplated and anticipated before any of this was built as as the site plan was that was developed.

And so I mean we can continue to work with you and see what we can do to help.

But that is a specific thing that uh was recognized when this when this neighborhood was built and this development plan was proposed.

The one question I would ask regardless of I'm assuming that what that means is private private drives, alleyways or private drives.

Well, what if somebody runs over your mailbox in your front yard?

Your yard's private.

Who's responsible?

That's that's still city property, I think at that point.

It is I mean there is public right-of-way through there.

I mean, that is true.

And the alleyways are considered public right-of-way, but the specific provision was included in the documents that were presented by and agreed to by the developer when that neighborhood was built.

So what is our recourse?

Work through your property owners association and fixed the asphalt.

Is there an idea of cost bill?

No, and and that's the other thing.

You know, people that have, you know, you're gonna have to have a certain amount of equipment and materials and that sort of thing, and uh obviously uh I don't property association doesn't have that.

Did you all get any estimates yet?

No.

Well, no, I haven't heard I I was told, you know, to me it's an integrity and accountability issue.

I was told I was gonna that somebody was going to get back with me, and it's been 25 days today.

I apologize for that because I I when I learned of this, I believed that that was going to be shared back with you.

And I can certainly share that with you and show you where it says that.

I mean, it's I mean it when I've saw that, so well that is obvious.

And this particular this specific problem was anticipated before the before the neighborhood was built.

So Mayor McGill, five minutes.

Well, I have a question too, because this isn't the first issue that's come up with Sisterna that is due to the developer.

Right.

Why did we allow these plans to move through uh you know, based on the developers word if the developer is now not accountable?

I I do not know the answer.

The first one was the the not accounting for the widening of Mazard.

And then now there's this one.

Is there a bond?

Does the developer have to keep a bond?

How old are that subdivision?

You know, when they did Mazard, they took our whole front entrance.

Yeah.

They took our fountain, they took everything and didn't give us anything because they said it was in the original plan.

Right.

That yeah, that that's not I mean we uh uh Maggie, could you come and answer those questions?

It seemed like you might have an answer back there.

Thank you.

Sure.

So developers do typically bond infrastructure, however, upon it's bonding of infrastructure prior to construction.

So when that final plat is recorded, the infrastructure is in place and the bond can be released.

And just for clarification, Mr.

King Cannon, it's it's actually not an alleyway, it's an a private access easement.

So it's it was always intended to be rear access entry for cisterna.

And perhaps the best solution is maybe could y'all have we ever talked to Solid Waste about doing um pickup in the front yard?

Well, there's not I know there's not access, but it it might help save your it might help save your private access easement.

So our unified development ordinance, our zoning code requires property owners association.

Since we do require these improvements, we require subdivisions to establish and maintain property owners' associations with the thought in mind that they will handle these private infrastructure needs, and that's why we make these notations on the plat when they're going through these development processes.

And typically when neighborhoods are being established, the developer will um maintain that property owners association until it is passed off to the residents that live.

And this particular plat was filed in 2008.

So I guess what I'm saying is is that this is not unusual.

It is considered a private property matter.

It is a private access easement.

I'll be happy to visit with you if you would like for me to, Mr.

Kincanon.

Yeah, we just as a property owners association, we've been hit with double water.

Yeah.

Uh you know, I mean, we don't we can't just keep going up on property dues and everything for these people that uh we have 79 dwellings in the in the subdivision.

And uh, you know, I was just looking that was hoping that maybe there was some help, whether it's equipment or whatever it is.

Uh uh the I don't think it's a gigantic fix, but it's not something that we have readily uh have our hands on to be able to do it.

Would would Jeff would the can we do a cost share with that on that maybe?

Not in this particular instance.

It's not it's not public.

So if the PLA buys buys the materials in the city, do it's not that big a pothole really.

What about those smaller trucks like they use around the parks, those real small little trash trucks, because those would weigh considerably less.

Well, we we saw this happening.

Uh we saw where the ruts were being done in that alleyway, and so we've made an agreement with uh Mr.

Parker, the collection guy, uh and he was using his lightest trucks, but by the time they put all that retractable, however they compile compile all the trash, it's still heavy.

It's still heavy.

So what's next?

I mean I think Maggie getting with you and seeing if there's some resolution of that, always circling back with us, give us an update on this.

Uh it sounds as if relocating the trash pickup location is gonna be your immediate fix.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, they the developers did not put gates out of the front of the development.

It's a zero property line development.

So what's what how could these be not deemed as private alleyways?

I think she can answer that question as the director of planning commission.

I mean, something, you know, is there something we can change with the way it was drawn up now that the developers are gone.

Uh I don't I mean that the short answer to that is no.

I mean, that would take an acquisition.

I mean, this is private property that's got a private access and utility easement on it.

I mean, this in order to do something like that, the city would have to acquire that property, and I'm not sure that the city would be interested in doing so.

I don't want to speak for the board, but I'm not sure that that's something at this point the city would be interested in doing.

Or I'm not sure that your residents would want for the city to acquire portion of their backyard.

Yeah.

Okay, well, thank you for listening.

Thank you.

Thanks, Bill.

Next we have Molly Echeveria.

All right.

Thank you for hearing me tonight.

I'm actually going to provide my abridged version of what I was originally going to address.

Um certainly definitely happy to hear that the success story of Hope Campus.

Um also along those lines, there certainly there certainly needs to be a balance because over on uh Grand NC, I don't know if it's there now.

Um, but there was a homeless hangout where they were using um the tree over there, there's like a triangle park where they were using the tree to create this makeshift shelter, there was trash, shopping carts, you know, just a really unclean space.

And I just find it uh find that there's a double standard because if there's an ordinance to where property owners have to keep their spaces clean.

100%.

Yeah, thank you.

And also uh just you know, Oklahoma has completely banned encampments, and so that's also a concern that that they have completely gutted all homeless encampments.

Um so it's also a concern that their homeless could be coming this way.

We we do kind of do this the same thing in in in Fort Smith.

So we're we're you know trying to drive put them towards services uh Hope Campus, those kinds of things.

So we've kind of gone the same way.

Thank you.

Do you have you does somebody have that location where that where that was?

I mean I haven't could you s could you send that to us?

We can get that over to neighborhood services.

Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Next we have Casey Wilson.

Good evening.

Good evening.

Um you know what perfect time uh for me to speak after the young lady that went before me.

Um I know where she's talking about on the side of the campus, you know, we we we're constantly uh trying to keep individuals from putting up shop next to us.

Um we I guess can enforce that more and and Patrick that you heard from the success success story, you know his success that he had is because of a board just like you guys back in 2009 that decided that there needed to be a task force put together uh to find a solution for homelessness, and um with that task force that your board put together, uh Hope Campus was developed from that.

Um whenever I became executive director, uh I guess it's been eight months ago.

Um I was going through some files and and I found some files about uh how Hope Campus started.

And um, you know, I was reading through there, and I don't know if any of you guys remember that, and I remember reading some of it on the media I was quite younger, but um, but because of you know, a board just like this one, um, success.

Um but um as far as the um people that are congregating kind of on the side um one thing with that task force they hired a uh a gentleman with a PhD to come in and kind of study uh and uh study what that solution would be and and basically has left me some notes and one of those notes is actually to keep a a clean environment around the campus and and I just read that about two weeks ago, so I've been actually enforcing it a little bit stronger and and not doing it all at once where hey you've got to disperse, but slowly like warning, hey, we're gonna stop allowing you to you know put this up next to the campus, uh, across the railroad tracks, you know, can't necessarily control that, but you know, we could go back and forth on encampments, but what we're trying to do at Hope Campus is change the mindset on homelessness.

You know, we're trying to uh see about maybe um uh talking with you know uh uh uh officer Slis and and uh some others in the community.

Um we're talking about having our homeless individuals put on um vest saying that they're from Hope Campus and picking up trash, you know, picking up trash around the city.

So people whenever they see someone that's homeless, they don't think Hope Campus and think something negative.

Um because you know if you'll spend some time at the campus, you'll you'll see that they're not bad people.

Uh they won't bite you.

Uh they're just down on their luck and they don't have a safety net like uh some of us that might have been born and raised here in Fort Smith.

Um we have, you know, if something happens, we might have a couch we could sleep on.

You know, um I'm it just today was working in our staffing.

We have a gentleman with dementia, you know, and we're all he has.

He would be on the street just you know, I mean, if we didn't if we weren't there to kind of guide him, you know, to where the bathroom is, he'd be walking in the middle of traffic.

Um and I feel like we're the new mental health uh facility.

Um because there's only acute care nowadays, you know, you're gonna go to Valley five days, maybe two weeks at the most, CSU three days.

Uh and the next place is a homeless shelter that we provide.

Uh and I think it's vital for the community, you know, because they are next to services.

Um for if we get the medication just right, you know, and they come out of that mental health uh you know, psychosis, uh they can learn some life skills to maybe get their life back and and um uh or that chronic person uh with chronic homelessness that uh sees a person like Patrick that becomes successful and they decide, wow, I want what he has, and and I want to to you know find employment.

I want to become self-sufficient.

Um but you know, coming into this role uh, you know, it wasn't easy uh very quick.

Uh we we kind of had some crisis and and my goal is sustainability of Hope Campus.

Um but let me go backwards a little bit.

So we are going to have an open house every first Tuesday of the month.

Um and I I challenge uh everyone in our community in Fort Smith to come uh to our open house.

Uh this last open house I had about 19 people uh, you know what last week.

And uh I think the more people that come inside that place and see the services that we offer that started from a this a board, this board in 2010.

Mayor McGill, five minutes.

Oh yeah.

But I just want yeah.

You want to make a closing comment.

Okay.

Closing comment.

Um we want to become a community partner uh with everyone, you know, if if you have anything, any questions, any hear anything negative, invite them to our open house uh that next Tuesday.

And well, why don't you go see for yourself?

Okay.

Um and like Noah uh said, you know, Fort Smith Police Department, they're the best they are.

I mean, wow.

Uh I don't know what we would do without them.

Okay.

That's all I got.

Okay, thank you.

Next we have Crystal Cadelli.

Good evening.

Um thank you for uh letting me talk tonight and I will make it short because it is late.

So I will give you the cliff notes.

Um you know, I see it here and um I really have seen a shift to this board and it is much appreciated.

I see that there are you know a few of you that are really digging in and asking um important questions, and um I think that it's made a real difference in some of the votes and um decision making, so I do appreciate that.

Um, as I listen, I continue to hear that the board's primary objective is to reduce the budget, but in the next breath, a lot of times we'll shift to um you know funding something that's non-essential.

So, you know, just from a citizen sitting here listening, it seems a lot of times that um it is emotion driven and not logical driven, and I think it's human nature to want to help people.

Um but the the fact is is helping a small group is hurting the majority of the citizens.

Um and you know, I would I would ask that you know that we stop funding the private um developments, private businesses, um, you know, have them go through the process that every other you know person has to go to when they're wanting to open their own business, go through a bank, get a loan.

Um if it's you know potentially not going to thrive in um this environment, then the city doesn't need to get involved, they don't need to be um providing financial funding.

Um so that's you know, that's where I would really ask that you know we take in consideration everybody that lives here and not let you know a certain group pull in our heart strings, even though it's very easily done, and thank God that it is our human nature to want to help people.

Um, it I I do want to say it was a little disheartening to me to hear about the sports complex come up again because I feel like we're already um you know subsidizing the convention center at the tune of about a million dollars.

Um it was I was asking to good point.

How can the civic center be this growth not advocating for a sports conference?

Okay, good, good because I I would that concerned me just because of you know the situation with the convention center and you know I just don't feel like we have the luxury of bringing on any other potential debt to the city.

So um, I mean, and that's I I'll keep it short and sweet tonight, but um thank you for you do for everything that you do, and you know um please make Fort Smith great again.

Next we have Richard Morris.

Hi everybody.

Um third meeting I've been to tonight.

I was over at the convention center with the Air Force, I was next door at the Planning Commission.

I hadn't planned on saying anything.

The same thing here, but I couldn't keep my mouth shut.

I get up and make comments with those two.

And something's been on my mind you happen to mention.

You're talking about staff here, and maybe uh to paraphrase you utilizing staff in different ways.

And uh to help staff, and I've had great experience with staff on the phone with various issues in various departments, and doing a great job.

But to help staff, um to help me help myself so I don't have to use staff time.

We have a website.

And there are various uh features on our website where uh ostensibly you can do some research.

So it's not user-friendly.

I don't know what's happening.

But I wind up calling staff anyway.

And uh past couple of days, you had to do it.

Research I was doing uh through the planning department.

Okay.

Now they they're involved in the planning department right now and doing something with city views, or maybe something else found by the wayside.

But your staff is going above and beyond, and you spread them out in.

So even the best people need some help.

Also, what you task staff to do is important, and you can't be arbitrary, capricious and cavalier about it.

And I don't know if it was the board or prior city administration, but an example I can look at is with neighborhood services when you assign Sean Guard to look into the grants pass uh issue uh for homelessness and constitutional rights and all this other stuff.

And he's a great guy.

Uh Sean and Sherry and many others don't ever say no to a test.

They rise above and beyond the task.

Uh but I had to stop and think.

Well, we have lawyers for that.

Sean's got enough to do, but he won't complain.

But I try to put myself in his shoes.

So I'll complain for him.

He didn't ask me to do that, but I'm trying to empathize.

So before anyone acts like a big shot and it's Cavalier and just say, well, give it to him and let him do it, let him do it.

Just stop and think.

And be uh more efficient, use a better use uh of the staff that you have.

Because the good people we have, please don't overload them because they're loyal, they've been here, they're capable.

Um you can't say enough about the mention names, Sean and Sherry Gard, um Matt Maker and his crew, um Maggie and her crew, and I can go on.

And uh I'm very highly critical, but constructively critical, and I use the city resources, and it does work, but it could be easier.

And the thing with Granite is you know, I had high hopes.

Um maybe we need to tighten up a search engine a little bit or just be current with things, but that's just my observation anecdotally today.

Um maybe I just don't know what I'm doing, but I just help me.

That's all I gotta say.

But Kira, the good work.

I know it's not easy.

Thank you.

Thank you, thank you, Richard.

Madam Clerk.

Last we have Joe Elskin.

I'm gonna be quick.

Um I just I just um appreciate what Kim said and the gentleman for makeup my communication uh degree and that sort of thing.

I just feel like um I need to emphasize over and over again that um to advocate for you all widening your research and investigation and including um your department heads and the boots on the ground people, because in solving your budget problem and personnel problems, collaborating, as the gentleman said, well, he's gone, is um something that empowers them and it empowers you with information that is real for Fort Smith.

It's it's not just numbers, it's real.

Um so like you said, solutions have to be local, they have to be collaborated, collaboration, and um as a as a person who worked for what 50 years, uh knowing that somebody hears what I say matters a great deal.

Good night, guys.

Thank you, Joe.

Was there anyone else, Madam Clerk?

No, that's it.

Okay, thank you.

I appreciate everyone's time and hard work.

Motion to adjourn.

So moved.

Thank you.