Good evening folks.

Sorry for the slight delay.

We're going to go ahead and get started with the special study session that we have about budget items just as a matter of notification for everyone.

This meeting won't conclude no later than 7.30 this evening.

So Mr.

Dingman, would you please get us started with our agenda for tonight?

Thank you, Vice Mayor.

This evening, starting with uh review of the budget comparison summary from the general fund.

And as we're going through, we have a plethora of paperwork in front of us.

Could you please point out to us where we are as we move through each of these items?

Certainly, sir.

The first thing that I want to talk about, I've got it on the screen, but this is freshly up.

I don't have this printed out.

Um, but just and we've and you've looked at this before, but you know, we continually keep to update this as we um meet with individual departments and and uh try to trim um projections and and also budgets.

And so what we have today shows that uh for our fiscal year twenty-five projected, just look at the bottom line.

We've um we've trimmed our budget, I guess deficit our revenues less our expenditures.

So we were the amended was at 19.4, and we've got it the projected now to 17 and a half.

So we've made some fairly significant progress there.

What are we looking at here?

This is the general fund.

Right, but where is that?

We don't have to.

I don't have I we just got this updated, but I wanted to kind of show you where we are, and these totals will be reflected in this other handout I have for you.

So but anyway, I just wanted to point out.

So our if we're looking at our contingency uh reserve percentage, we're estimating twenty-four percent by the end of uh twenty-five.

And then we're also you know, are we also working through the twenty-six budget request.

And I don't know that we we've updated as much as we can.

I think there might be even some more updates.

We just haven't gotten them in here yet.

But at this point, um we're showing a 10 million dollar uh deficit in 26, showing a 7.7 million dollar fund balance at 12 percent.

So Andy, could I ask a quick question?

When we buy when we do things that are not tied to departments like water slides or or other purchases that are going to be added, that's coming from the general fund.

Where is it categorized on this image on the screen?

Non-departmental.

It's that last expenditure line item.

Okay, thank you.

So non-departmental will have things that we do.

Um, it'll it'll have things like the water slides typically.

We bought the building, uh that you know, that's in that category.

Also transfers that we make to other funds like to the lofty contribution fund and the convention.

Cabanis land, is that in that too?

What's that?

The cabanis land, the two million from their non-departmental funds?

Yeah, because it wasn't for a particular departmental purpose.

It was just a and the property sales happen.

Uh will those go back to non-department.

Will they go back to the go straight back to the general fund as revenue, yes?

Okay, thank you.

You you you are you're referencing the cabanas property.

That actually closed in 24, right?

You're not necessarily re saying No, I'm not saying it.

I'm just trying to get my mind into categories.

Okay.

So when we do something that's not police, not parks, right?

Where is it in this sheet?

And that's what I was trying to talk about.

At the risk of derailing our schedule, you know, you handed one of these out that's up on the screen, one of these out Tuesday night to us, and the excess revenue over expenditure was 8.9 million.

How in 48 hours did it go to 10.1?

The uh the transfer, the so we moved the that's due to the River Valley Communications Center.

So we added uh we've got a 1.3 million dollar transfer that we added there, because that's the portion of that we'll have, you know, we're estimated that's a portion that we'll have to help support uh the 911 center.

It was taken out of the budget in twenty-six, but the you know we move the we moved the personnel and the revenues that come in to support that out of the general fund, and we've got a new fund established for twenty-six.

Okay, thank you for clarification.

If I might add to that, and just as a a reminder, uh you know, the what is shown on the screen here and what we've been working to refine is the the entire budget request is submitted by departments.

Um, you know, aside from continuing to refine revenues and those sorts of things and continuing to work through the process to make sure everything is in the correct, you know, correct column and correct line, um the these numbers have not been necessarily refined.

We haven't re administration hasn't reviewed them with the departments yet, and so we haven't gone through and refined the projected the projected column for 2025.

We haven't gone through and refined the 2026 column yet.

So this and by and large is is raw number, the raw numbers in terms of what came in from the departments, yes.

Just as a reminder, thank you.

All right.

So just real quick on that.

How how much could we expect this to fluctuate between now and budget time?

I mean, w this is the first time we're seeing this, right?

Right.

It's the first time we're seeing it.

You guys are are seeing it and dealing with it uh regularly.

How much at this point at this level, first time seeing it?

If you can think back, I know Carl was was heavily involved in the budget tr pretty significantly.

W what what should we expect of a fluctuation?

Um are we talking million dollars or so?

Or are we talking about it?

Just for just for example, I mean we started talking about this on Monday and we had a little discussion uh Tuesday, but on Monday when we were looking at this particular schedule, that excess uh revenues over expenditures number when we started was in the close to twelve million dollar number.

And so we've been working on that to refine those numbers to bring and that's come down from that number and uh 11.8 or something like that, I remember.

But that now we're down to 10 ish.

But we continue to work through those.

And like I said, those numbers include all of the capital requests so far.

All all of I mean I think it includes all if not mostly all of all personnel requests.

I think uh and so all of those things are still in there in terms of they haven't been refined and presented as a as a proposed budget yet.

So that's where we're that's where we're at.

I mean it's really hard to it's really hard to say what to expect.

I mean, if I think about prior years, you know, we we were dealing with some pretty hefty items, you know, like the five million dollars that went to the airport, and you know, it was like, oh we we need to get that, you know.

Um, you know, I've I've seen some pretty heavy swings in the past of that magnitude.

Well I can't foresee anything right now that's you know the one that crept up on me today was well, we've pulled the River Valley Act, the 911 activity out of the general fund, but we're still gonna have to support that.

And and just that was a that one kind of you know and and let me see anything bigger than that really.

And let me clarify, is that a twenty-six?

Yes.

That's okay.

So w I guess what I'm getting at is how much should I fli I I expect fluctuation on twenty-five.

Because I w because twenty-five is really gonna give me some guidance into what I've got to do for twenty six.

Right.

Um I mean, I think that'll that'll depend heavily on the projected column as we work through the what the departments in terms of what their pr actual projected spend is for twenty twenty-five.

I mean I mean we're we're just we're about one point five million dollars in terms of excess revenues over expenditures in twenty five.

And I know we're talking about twenty-six.

That's what we're planning on.

But I mean, I'm we went from Tuesday 21.6 percent in contingency reserve percentage to 24.2 percent, which helps me going into to 26, but I want to I just want to make sure that I know what that might look like.

I mean the result the the what's what's getting us those results right now, just in particular is you know, we've met with a handful of departments and gone through the projections, which a lot of times are based upon the mended budget that was the budget cuts.

Yeah.

And as we talk through some of the individual items, we can say, hey, we're not gonna do that.

Is that what's helping this number?

So it could go up in the positive, like because of the 10 percent holdback, correct?

Yeah, uh yeah, I guess so.

So I mean when you're asking the swing, I think that's the thing we have we gotta think through too, is what's that 10 percent hold doing in a positive and well and to and to that point, if you we talked about a uh balanced budget, zero uh getting to zero.

But if if we fall under twenty percent, we've got to have revenues over def over um expenditures.

Um depending on how low we go shows me how how much I need to make sure that we're we we're cutting spending or I'm gonna I've got a little exercise to kind of demonstrate that coming up.

Okay, good.

I just at 25 and ending of 25 is going to help me a little bit in 26, although we 26 is its own year, but that that's gonna help me a little bit.

Okay.

All right.

Let's uh move on to the next one.

The next schedule I want to show you is uh just the the more the revenues that we've got.

Um, so are we on to item two?

Item two statement of revenue comparisons.

Is this printed for us somewhere?

Uh no.

This one's not printed.

Yeah.

So this one is printed?

No.

I don't have this one because these were I don't see any significant updates there, but um I mean our our largest revenue sources.

I think we've covered most, you know, kind of covered this during Tuesday night was you know, obviously the biggest revenue source is our county sales tax and our franchise fees and um property taxes are really our biggest individual sources that are there to support the general fund um fund wide.

You know, you can see also the transit and the intergovernmental revenues.

Um, you know, that the Federal and State, particularly the Federal Um can be fairly significant.

But it's you know it's typically tied to if we've got more reimbursements in transit Federal, that means we've probably spent more on capital.

And you did print this out for us Tuesday, as right.

Is this different than what we got Tuesday night?

Uh it might be slightly different, but I think it's fairly close right now.

Can you go to the bottom again just so we can take a picture of the book?

Thank you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the bottom, yeah.

So we're we're showing the projection of $56.3 million in revenues and $25 to N25 and then projected $53, uh almost $53.5 million for uh is that conservative?

Like do you feel like to Neil's question earlier about fluctuation would be we were we were conservative on all estimates, particularly like sales tax.

We kept it flat.

We just looked at the last 12 months of collections that we had and said that's what it's gonna be.

So if we get any any economic growth at all, it's gonna go to the benefit.

Um the one area that we did um increase our projections is we're we we did we did uh project a 10 percent increase on the property tax because of the the reassessment, the revaluation that that we have seen and the data that we got.

The only thing that I have concerns about as it relates to revenue in 26 is you know we've we're coming off of a record high in 23, I think.

Yes.

24 dipped a little bit, 25 dipped a little bit.

I don't know where you know twenty-six is we're kind of kind of going down slightly, but not it's not dropping off the face of the earth.

It's just a percentage or so.

So we've got to be mindful of that.

So you've kept you kept you kept those sales tax numbers the same as twenty-four numbers.

Uh well, we really just we just kind of do a a look back at the last twelve months.

So I was about to say, 'cause it's a seven.

Do what?

You're talking about a seven point seven million dollar difference in income.

Am I seeing that right?

From twenty-four actuals?

Josh scroll back up to the tax.

So you you know, one thing is we had a lot more bank deposits and high interest rates, so the interest is a big factor there.

We had three point or about one point six million dollars.

Director Campus, your question just about county sales tax.

Well, I'm just gonna do that.

I'm just trying to get my total, weren't you?

I am trying to look at the totals, and I when I see it at the bottom of the bottom of the page, 2024 actuals 5 million dollar airport.

61 61 million 199.

And that's why I was trying to figure out what's this making this $7.7 million difference.

One time that we can't that came back to us in 24.

And then you mentioned another one just now, the 1.1.

We yeah, we were getting we were getting uh you know record levels of interest income off our.

Which closes it down to 1.6.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

Thank you.

Um and then also the 911 funds, you know, there was there's 1.1 million dollars at the top there in the intergovernmental.

You know, that was coming in to, you know, we had expenditures to offset that in 24 and 26.

We're that stuff is being uh accounted for in its own fund.

So that's you're seeing some variations there.

Can you spend maybe uh a minute, two minute and a half for the folks that are watching and and anybody that is interested in this topic?

What what goes into projecting?

Like what what is what is kind of the the process there, what's your sweet spot, what are some factors that you look at?

Um, you know, because it's I mean, there's obviously a little bit of art, a little bit of science.

Can you talk to us a little bit about your mentality with that?

And every different every revenue source we can we'll look at it a little differently.

But you know, as far as you know, the largest one, the sales tax, we always stay conservative, but we also pay attention to what our low, you know, what are what the just the national economic situation is and then also you know you know the state budget collections, sales tax collections as well, and they're on a June 30 year, so you can we can see what their budget is for the June 30, 27 fiscal year and say what did they what did they see?

You know, they did they did I think a 1.8 percent uh growth in sales tax collections in their budget is what I recall.

So you know, we can we can take clues from the state level.

Um we can look at we can look at how our you know unemployment is, we can take anecdotal evidence.

Do we know, you know, are we having um or we are we losing in employment or jobs you know here locally?

You know, you want to you definitely want to try to take into account losses that you have, but you don't, you know, but we're hesitant to count the gains that we think we're gonna have until we see that we're gonna realize those gains.

So that's kind of how we do that.

And then you know, some of the things, you know, the grant revenues things, those are typically based to events that are going to occur.

Do we plan to get do we know we're gonna get those type of things?

So those things are more specific.

Um, you know, a lot of the other ones, you know, the the smaller revenues, the permit fees, and those type of things.

You know, we just look at what we've the trends that we've had in the last you know year or two.

Sure.

And so, like for instance on sales tax, you know, we collected an actual amount of 24.492 million dollars.

You know, we're projecting 24.5 originally budget 25 25.1, looking ahead next year, 24.5, a shade over that.

So anticipating a very similar um you know, third year running when it comes to to tax collection.

Correct.

Okay.

If so, and one other thing I wanted to ask before we dive into them as well, is the ten point one million, but that's counting every department as they submitted so far with new equipment added in, correct?

So as we're looking at balancing this, it's probably just prudent to really dive in on the CapEx conversations.

The last number I saw, there was about $3.7 million of capital request in those figures.

I don't think that number has changed.

I don't remember if we've changed any of that in here so far.

3.7 just for the general fund only.

Yes, just for general fund.

On equipment.

Thank you.

And so and so when you're talking about a ten million dollar deficit and three point seven is capital, then the balance isn't operating in personnel.

So does this sort of lead us into item three, which was reviewing the dollars available to spend?

Yeah.

So the so the next item is the distribution of appropriations.

Um I think this is this was handed out Tuesday night.

And I mean, I don't have a ton of comments on this.

I mean, but this you can see the individual programs that feed up into that summary that make up the expenditures and you can see where certain programs are allocated across the funds.

Tonight, you know, we're particularly focused on general fund with the departments that were looking at.

So um I don't know anything, see if there's anything significant we need to point out that we haven't already covered.

Well while he's looking at that, uh Director Martin, what audit am I looking for that tells me the numbers of department?

You said there was an audit report on the back of the report.

So look at the external audit, so the one that's done by Forvis.

The one we did in June?

Uh yeah, yeah.

The one we did in June.

It it won't be under our regular internal audit, I don't believe.

The internal audit audits.

It's the CAPFER, uh CAFER, CAFFR, CAFR.

What's that stand for?

It's they've changed annual comprehensive financial report.

Right.

So yeah, if you look in the back of that, 10 years worth of by department.

And you can see around 20, well, we might be rolling off, but 2015, when the consent decree came into being, you see a big rise in water and sewer or in utilities to cover that.

That's it's just it's really interesting to see.

I've actually I think I've got it on my iPad too.

I think we can move on to the next item.

Just to be clear though, I mean, this is a jumping off point.

This is the wish list, right?

I mean, we've got to balance the budget, 10 million dollar deficit.

I think every the capital request in particular is pretty, you know, I think everyone just added everything that they were looking to get.

So and to be fair with that, we did ask them to, you know, in terms of capital, you know, include the capital that you think you need.

And so I mean it's not necessarily just a wish list, but we did ask them they they are mindful, I mean all the department heads are mindful of you know what we're what we're dealing with here, but they did we did ask them to include capital that they need.

So is it references to item three here on the agenda with reviewing dollars available to spend in the general fund for uh uh setting of the conversation?

If you're looking at the budget comparison summary document, is it then accurate to say that you all are projecting currently that there should be around fifty-three point five million dollars available to spend in projected revenue as it relates to the general fund?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

This next exercise will kind of walk through that, you know, just kind of see you know potentially way of looking at that.

So this, you know, uh pie chart here, you know, this will tie to that next schedule that's behind there.

Um this just shows that the uh we look back at the three-year actual expenditures for 22 to 24 by department in the general fund, and you know, just see who, you know, what which departments are using what percentage of our of the expenditures in the general fund of how are how are our general fund expenditures allocated by a department?

And so that's kind of the um so we kind of calculate that just to look at historically, you know, when we talk about priority base budgeting and those type of concepts is how much money do you want to put, you know, how much of your pie do you want to go towards public safety, sure parks and rec and those type of things.

And for those who are watching who maybe can't see the graphic or the colors or what have you, is it accurate to say that over the last three years 54 percent of general fund dollars have been spent on the police department and the fire department?

That's correct.

All right.

Yes.

And the fire is the 23.

Yeah.

Can you give us those uh 15.7?

It's on your print uh it'll be on the printout on the next page.

Oh so we can go to the next uh the target allocation of available resources page.

So you do have a copy of this.

So basically it's kind of an exercise that we went through this afternoon and you know, we said, okay, what what are the average dollar spend of our general fund by department over the last three years?

And you can see the the you see the the three-year average column and the percentages on the right, those tie back to the graph there.

And then um, and so the scenario is okay.

So if we if you know if we expect that we're gonna have revenues of fifty-three and a half million dollars for twenty-six, then how much can each department spend theoretically and have a balanced budget?

You know, this is a very top-level you know way of thinking, but we use the same percentages.

If they all spend the same percentage that they typically spend in the last three years, what you know, what is that dollar looks like.

And then also what does that do?

You know, you can see at the bottom, you know, keep continuing on with the fund balance that we're projecting to have at the end of 25.

If we balance the budget this way, our uh contingency reserve for pen uh percentage would be 33.4 percent.

So is an accurate way to use this chart in front of us, we'll look at 4405 internal audit to fit the balance number target that we would need of you know 53.5, is the accurate way to read this that internal audit, for example, would have to spend 46, would be spending would have allocated to it 46 percent less than its three-year preceding average.

Well, it basically it would have to cut its request by 46 percent.

Thank you.

Yes.

And if I might I might add just to that, I mean looking at that same example internal audit where it says the 73,004 three-year average, that's just out of the general fund.

Now that that department right, okay.

As hopeful as this is, because it is interesting to look at.

Um you're asking 4.8 for police, 3.2 for fire, and 1 million for IT.

I mean, uh I don't know if that's doable.

You know, I don't think an even cut here you know, as looking at the interesting.

I'm saying this is just an exercise.

I'm not saying that's what we should do.

There are other factors in here that affect some of these numbers as well.

For instance.

Is this what they're asking for, or this is just part of the exercise?

The uh the the 26 preliminary budget column is the is the ask was the request that that came in.

Okay.

So we you know we and this should agree back to the summary that we looked at earlier.

We you know, sixty-three point six million dollars in total expenditures.

Uh if I'm reading this right, so like take the 4101 board of directors, it's showing over or under.

Can you explain that?

So there, yeah, there are there are a few things that are because we've restructured some things.

For instance, the blue line expenditures were in the three-year average before, but now we have a new facilities group at the bottom, uh 4503, where we're where the expenditures for the blue line, you know, we purchased the building and the maintenance expenses for that, and we've we've got a maintenance crew uh to serve all the you know, all the main city buildings, Cardinal Hall expenditures.

So you can see like 4503, there are there's zero dollars spent because that is a new program inside it kind of it's just a restructuring.

How does 5520 citizen services?

How are they 237,000 under that because um citizen services?

That one I'm not that's not uh 55, that's collections, right?

We got community mobility is given some positive or is under the we haven't reviewed that one yet, I don't think.

If the facilities line is for the maintenance of the building, where are we seeing the reduction for the rent we're not paying now for the building?

Good question.

The rent is in you know, we converted the rent over into uh maintenance expenses for the most part.

Is that in the facilities line?

Right.

It was in purchasing at one time, yeah.

The lease the lease budget was in purchasing, and we transferred that.

Is it what, $37,000 a month?

Yes, it was about that.

Yeah, and so that that's yeah, that's for the City Hall building, and the same thing really is true as for the difference in the board of directors one because we were paying a lease out of that one.

That's no longer.

But yes, that was the the building lease for the City Hall building that we purchased when we were paying the lease, it was out of the purchasing program.

Okay.

But purchasing is only down uh $107,000, and that's three months rent.

So what about the rest of it?

Like I said, the the the amounts there are just representative of the general fund.

So the other the the other three funds contributed to that as well.

So there's a reduction in those for purchasing as well.

$2.5 million under the last three years, we had the purchase of the building, all those other people.

But we don't have it in this one.

Yeah, when the deposit we you know we we supported the airports, the barrier project.

There's a lot of So it's an interesting exercise, but it definitely it's it doesn't fix, it's not the silver bullet.

That's right.

And this document here represents we're talking about just general fund dollars.

That's right.

So could you uh again for the sake of the conversation walk down this list that's in front of us and denote for us on this list which ones of these, if any, are completely funded by the general fund?

Uh yeah.

That would be um the uh the courts, city prosecutor, public defender, um, communication, well no communications, community mobility.

City attorney.

City attorney gets allocated.

Um let's see.

You said mobility?

Yeah.

4408.

So you are including the city attorney on that one?

No.

Okay.

Thanks.

Uh building safety, police and fire, parks and rec for the most part.

There's a little bit of allocation for the mowing of right-of-ways and things.

Ms.

Lores, health services, and um the non-departmental categories.

Those are the those are the ones that are 100 percent general.

What are we budgeting for Ms.

Lores for?

Not anymore.

Or not, correct?

Yeah.

We've got uh the proposed number for Miss Lores is 267,000 for 26.

Who?

I'll come back to that.

I'm not really passionate about that at all.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Does Ms.

Lores bring in any sort of income, or is it is that taking this into account?

It brings in a little bit, but it really doesn't cover that level of expense.

It seems like a high expense for just one.

Is it because it's a historic building?

I mean then.

I think a lot of that is driven by the fact that there are some facility improvements that are needed to happen, and those are sort of um scheduled for the you know, our initial year here.

We've got the siding project, there's some uh restructuring inside and things like that.

The hail damage, and then there was going to be some insurance money, right?

Did we ever see that back?

That was already I think that work's already been done.

Okay, so this is separate.

I think there was like a big uh maybe siding that needed to be replaced.

And who runs that?

Uh we have a contract with um AMP commission basically to manage that for us.

Sorry.

I thought we turned it back over to the city because AMP didn't want it.

Well, they are still managing it.

Um, but the employees and the operations and such are starting to that this budget now, a general fund budget where it wasn't before before it was rolled into the AMP's expenses.

And so that's why we're seeing this um the 26th preliminary budget column has numbers, whereas the previous three-year average doesn't.

Does the transit line does that include the reimbursements transit receives?

It's not nut that's a gross expense number, so there could be there could be revenues associated with get reimbursements, yeah.

Because sometimes they're reimbursed, what, 80, 90 percent?

I mean, it's quite a lot of the remote.

Most of the capital is about 80, yeah, and 8020 federal local.

I think the oper most of the operating is 50-50 for the most part.

Okay.

Are we in agreement in a contract for this Laura's house?

Is that a company that we contracted in a term like OVG?

There's like a there's a kind of a yeah, there's similar to that.

There's a management agreement between the AMP Commission and and the uh city.

Okay.

I think that was done about maybe a year ago.

It's fairly, you know, I think that was something that was approved about a year ago.

Yeah.

So anyway, but you know, um so we're showing a balanced budget is going to get us 33.

uh 4 percent, you know, potentially in our, you know, that that would substantially build up our reserve.

Um I did notice that you know, if we wanted to just to get it back to the 25% target that we were looking at, that would be uh they cut that um that $10 million deficit in 26, cut it $3.5 million to $6.6, and that would get our um targeted fund balance at 25 percent.

I think that's that's good to see that that projection right there.

So balanced where we're nothing oh no expenditures over uh revenues, we'd be at the end of 26, 33.4 percent fund balance.

Okay.

Okay.

Which of course then you have the conversation about what is the correct number of a reserve, and I think opinions probably vary on that item.

So Andy, or uh.

So are it's not you saying that the the general is showing the four million point four point two million dollar payout with water slides.

So there's still more expense there.

That's part of twenty.

I think those numbers are in twenty-four and twenty-five.

Those are already counted.

They're already figured they're already figured in as expense.

Right.

So you sure?

I mean, it's part of it's you know, some of it's you know, we paid two million dollars roughly in twenty-four to actually buy them.

Yeah.

And then there the rest of that 4.2 was towards the installation and shipping and construction.

And so that hadn't been paid yet, right?

That's it hasn't been paid, but that's part of your 25, it's guilty and the 25 projected numbers, yes.

All right.

The rest of that.

Then could you review again just briefly, because I know you have it annotated right here for 33.4 percent, but you said if we wanted to hit a targeted 25 percent, but it's not on here.

You cut three and a half million.

Cut three and a half million off of the deficit down to six instead of ten point one, you get it down to six point six for twenty-six.

And and what uh we remind us as well on the books, what is the current number that we're mandated to have for uh for the reserve fund?

What what's the there's a mandatory percentage, correct?

To me, to me it's kind of a two-tier it's a two-tier level where basically is you need to maintain twenty percent.

If you don't, then you should cut capital to get below fifteen, you start cutting operating that there's a policy there.

But in order to invest in capital improvements and things that you need to be above twenty-five percent.

So between twenty and twenty-five, you're safe, but it kind of dictates well, you can't really do anything extra.

Like similar to the do your normal operating activity, water slides.

You can't.

Yeah.

We talked about on Tuesday removing the positions that have been vacant for a year or more.

Is that reflected in here anywhere?

It hasn't been reflected.

I think we do have some information coming up about those numbers.

Um I'd like to see what that looks like.

Well, I think we have some information for you coming up here on that.

I mean, I mean ultimately it would be reflected if those dollars weren't spent here.

I mean, uh because we're just showing the three-year average of dollars actually spent in terms of uh so if you know the position was vacant for a good number of of a year, then it that I do think the included there.

Well, I don't know where I'm seeing utilities.

I miss that.

No, they're not part of the general fund.

Right.

So that's what I was wanting to see was the 40 positions and utilities.

What does that look like?

Because some of those have been most of those have been vacant as long as I've been on the board.

Bring Eric up and he can probably answer some of that.

But uh game plan is we're gonna talk utilities like just like this in a at some point.

Right.

There we go.

Here, just use mine.

Why not?

Sharing is caring.

Uh so there should be on the bottom of your deck should be a slide that looks like that.

I don't know if you can go ahead and pull that up.

So at your request, I went in and looked at all of the vacant positions that exist within the city as of yesterday that aren't being actively recruited for or hired for.

So there's 35 positions in the city that are reflected in that.

35 total positions.

No, that's that's citywide.

There's 35.

Yeah.

35 vacant positions.

There's 24 non-uniform positions, five positions in the fire department, and six positions in the police department.

This slide here only represents non-uniform.

It doesn't not include uniform.

There's about $745,000 in salaries for uniform positions that's not reflected in here, which is 100 percent general fund.

And so like I said, that's five positions in the fire department and six positions in the police department that are currently vacant as of yesterday.

And then an additional twenty-four positions throughout the city that are non-uniform positions in various various areas of the city.

So what this reflects is that those 24 positions that are vacant, this is a uh shows you exactly how much of that would be would be in effect if we just froze those positions.

If we did away with them and this is an annuitized amount for the entire year, uh it would be about a 25, 275,000 savings to the general fund.

Uh so about 22 percent of the 1.2 million dollars uh that you see there.

But this slide is non-uniformed positions.

Correct, yes.

Yes, everything on here is non-uniform positions.

So that that 1.2.

The the total amount uh is to the tune of just a little over two million dollars total for vacant positions uh if you what what you were asking about, being able to uh positions that have been open for a year or longer?

Well, this this is all positions.

So this is a position whether it was open for two days or two years.

Most of the positions that you are thinking about were cut in May.

And so those are not reflected in here.

Out of all of the positions that I have on this list, uh two of the non-uniform positions have been vacant for longer than a year, but I also have a position on here that was vacant for two days, eleven days, a hundred days.

So this is every vacant position that and this is again, this is non-uniform full-time positions that are vacant.

So that's a lower number than I was thinking it was going to be.

Yeah, because of the allocation.

So most of those positions are are allocated.

And so the ones that are 100 percent general fund, as Andy said, those are going to be in the parks department, the police department, and the fire department for the most part.

There are some other ancillary departments that are smaller.

Those don't really have vacancies in there.

And so that's why it's 1.3 million dollars for 35 positions.

I'm sorry, for 27 positions, and it's 745,000 for 11 positions.

So did the utilities department add about 70 positions when we got into consent decree?

Uh I I mean I couldn't directly speak to that.

I wasn't here when that occurred.

In 2015, there were 223 positions in water and sewer.

We now have budgeted at the end of 24, 305.

And there and there was a schedule of 77 and 20 positions that were adopted that was adopted in 2015 for the consent.

So that's more than this 30 we're talking about.

Are those positions all filled then?

Is that what I hear you saying?

Uh uh I would say a majority of the positions that Director Kitsavis was referring to were the ones that were frozen in May, because those were primarily the utilities department.

I would say 80 percent of that, I don't have to go back and look at the numbers, 900 1.1 million dollars in positions that were frozen.

Uh I would say three-quarters to 80 percent of those uh were in the utilities department, and those are a lot of the positions that were vacant for quite some time.

Uh but because of the allocation share, most of those, most of the positions that are reflected in here are shared allocations.

So the percentage share is anywhere from about 20 to 30 percent to the general fund.

So that's why you're only looking at about 275,000 in savings out of those positions.

So to my colleague Director Martin, you're saying 2015, 223 there.

2025, 305, 802.

22.

2024.

So I mean 82 new employees.

That's a lot.

It it looks so just for benefit 2015, 223, 2016, 264, 2017, 270, and then 2018, 302.

So it was like as those rate increases came in in 15, 16, 17, we were hiring people for the consent decree.

And then it's kind of stayed flat since then.

Interesting.

So we kind of see we kind of see that consent decree playing a role there.

And is uh a thing that you're pointing out that uh when we made budget adjustments and revisions back in May, we did uh a lot of work when it comes to um getting unfilled positions off the books and having an impact on the budget.

I mean, there's that there's a few dozen more, obviously, which is what this chart reflects.

But that we did take that positive step back in May.

Correct, yes.

And and you all did Jeff and Andy are not contemplating uh you know restoring or unfreezing, you know, the ones that we took away that weren't filled back in May.

Yes, that's that's correct.

If that's correct, then let me ask one question.

Like a good example I remember because I you know lobbied for it and I'm fine that we took chose the path we chose, but the position that was open in planning was there because they had a promotion where they promoted and and so there was I think 80,000 or something of that nature is about all they can bring to the table because their department's pretty much it is truncated to what it is.

But uh I just think we need to factor that in.

I mean, if you have Maggie as a deputy, city administrator, and you want that to happen, and then their staff is already this one slot open.

I don't know how that impacts planning, but I think administration having honest conversations about some of these holes.

And then I just I still, which I know we'll get to it when we talk to it, but I mean we based on what I'm hearing in dialogue, we consult out a lot of stuff for consent decree work.

We bid it out.

Um I'm still trying to wrap my mind around 82 new employees in the utilities.

Doesn't help this general fund conversation, so I don't want to get us off the rails on it, but I just want to make that comment.

Thank you.

But yes, this is uh I think this is what you were asking for, though, to see if if we went in and said as of today, we're freezing all positions.

Uh you know, and and to that end as well.

Uh, you know, since there's a mention on there of turnover, uh, you know, you're looking at at roughly about an 18 percent turnover in the city.

So eighteen percent of those positions will go vacant or will become vacant at some time.

Just now.

Just for for benefit um for everybody.

General government.

So I'm assuming that's a general fund.

In 2015, it was 126 FTEs.

At the end of 24, there's 174.

That's 48 new positions.

Divide that by 126.

That's a 38 percent increase in 10 years.

Which that would probably get us exactly what we're talking about tonight.

Which, yeah, which I mean I think it's interesting to know.

I mean, maybe it is in that regard what it is.

I just think we ought to think, how did we grow that way?

You know, and in what ways is this positive and look at it and give an answer to these questions.

Now you say that turnover number of 18 percent.

Is there any context you're able to provide for that, how that compares to other in uh entities of similar size, other, you know, et cetera.

So to give you an idea, the the benchmark from the Bureau of Labor Statistics is 17.8.

So that's that that puts us, you know, we're still very correct.

Yes.

That's that's that's the measurement that I use to compare and see where we're at uh when it comes to turnover, yes.

Thank you for that context.

Sure welcome.

So Andy, if I'm reading the agenda right, are we now to to six?

Yep.

It's six six is we're going to parks, right?

Okay.

So we do have the there are handouts for the parks programs.

Fire.

Is it fire first?

Okay.

And what are these handouts represent?

Uh the the those are the actual individual programs.

What's that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't have to come up here and said if you don't want.

It would probably be a good idea.

Does that one work?

Let's see.

Yeah, it's working.

Yeah.

And Chief, as we as we you know dive in, um, you know, we got some news.

Um, you know, you announced your retirement coming up.

And we just want to publicly thank you for many, many years and decades of service and leadership to our community um for coming in uh and serving as the fire chief, you know, in in a very difficult time with the passing of our former chief.

Um and and just we all are very appreciative of the job that you've done and your entire department.

And so congratulations on a pending you know well earned retirement and uh just thank you, thank you, thank you.

Thank you very much.

I truly I truly enjoyed every day that I was at the fire department for the most part of the time it didn't even feel like it was a job until you know got a little bit further up in the food chain.

But after that, before that, it really wasn't even like a job, just absolutely love serving for the citizens over here is is a great opportunity, and I've loved it.

Well, what do you have to share with us this evening regarding the the budget items?

Uh what do you need to know?

We did our budget preliminary budget bill this morning, so what are you needing to know from me?

Like we went through and cut everything that we could cut, I mean, even down to five hundred dollars in some spots, uh all the way up to fifty, sixty thousand dollars in other spots where we knew we wouldn't need it.

So I think for me are two questions high level when you talked about you already made cuts.

If you can kind of give an overview of it just kind of so we can kind of feel for that.

And it was just items like that.

The well, like me talking about the extrication tools, you know, earlier in the year, they all passed, and so we took all that out of the budget now.

And it's just items like that.

They all passed.

What do you mean by that?

Uh we have to have them serviced every year and they go through a rigorous test, and if they don't pass, that's you know, when we have to get them replaced.

So you you budgeted for them to be replaced.

Five years maybe.

Because by the age of them, they're I mean, they could technically age out, but right now they're still all right.

Okay.

What about new equipment?

I mean, is there any new equipment in here?

Uh yeah, I was gonna for next year's or for next year's.

Yeah, I was gonna ask Andy Jeff or the chief, because if uh if we're following correctly, the numbers that we're working with to start out with do reflect the um capital expenses, the equipment needs reflected.

Could you highlight or pull out for us what those are um for the fire department?

So the um so these individual programs, you'll see capital listed on these programs towards the bottom or on the second page of these summaries.

So if I'm looking at 4801 admin, um there's no capital request for 2024.

I think suppression and rescue, if you look at the bottom there, um we've got vehicles and other equipment totaling 390,000 in the request for the twenty-six budget.

So you can see that towards the bottom of that first page for 4802 suppression and rescue.

It should be a little bit higher than that because that compressor for station seven didn't get moved over.

So we gotta add that.

I think we've got sounds like we've got some other adjustments to make there, but that's that which line item was it?

And I know you're talking about making an adjustment, yeah.

It's the 4802 capital improvement.

Let me see, I look up the line out of the race at the very bottom.

The 53110 is the vehicles that's for four vehicles and a budget of 240,000 for that.

The applicable outlay improvements other, there's a hundred and fifty, but we I had messed up and put one in the wrong spot, so I need to add that compressor into it.

We're wanting to add a compressor to station seven that fills our air bottles.

It's gonna keep the trucks from driving as far a distance to have to fill them up, save life on the truck, and that way we're not having to purchase the two million dollar truck as often as we have to.

Yeah, so uh and how we put a whole lot of thought into doing stuff like that to where they have to travel less.

From our from our uh fire trucks, um you know the the pumpers.

Yes.

How uh how are we doing age-wise on those?

We're still doing all right.

Um we're stretching them out a little bit further than they need to be, but we're keeping instead of trading them in, we're keeping extra reserves so that way we're always gonna have a vehicle to drive.

Okay.

So that's that's that's that's one area I don't want to I don't want to mess with.

I agree.

We're gonna we're gonna spend that's where we're gonna spend.

Yeah, speak to the refurbishment program also that we're doing.

Yes, we've got two right now in Las Vegas doing refurbishments on bumper five and pumper ten.

So and that was to the tune of uh one point one million what the yeah refurbishment of the refurbishment.

We're talking frame off, new motor, new transmission, one point one million.

Yes, and that's for both of them.

So it was like yes, it was like five hundred.

Five fifty a piece, something like that.

Versus a million bucks.

Yeah.

Uh the pumpers are about one point two right now, so versus two point four million.

What about that in regards to when there was discussion when I was just auditing these meetings about Tahoe's to keep the big truck from going out and taking the abuse of that call?

That's where the capital outlay of the four vehicles, two of those would be Tahoe's, and we would place them at ladder stations that are at the opposite ends, and it would save the life of those ladders tremendously.

I think it's a good idea.

Because I'm with Director Martin.

This is not an area I want to go look to cut.

Yeah.

You guys respond to things all the time and we need it.

So I was just going to say, so Jeff and Andy, as we move forward through these and the different departments in the days ahead, you know, since you had taken to heart what we've said about including you know some of those multi-year or longer standing equipment needs.

Could those be you know grouped together and pulled out specifically highlighted for us rather than you know, hey, it's at the bottom of this one and then add it to the bottom of that one.

And just as we move forward in these, since that's something that is slightly different uh in this process, could you please highlight out for us?

Certainly, and I think we do have a schedule built that I don't know that we provided you at all, but just highlights cut the capital requests in general.

Last Tuesday we provided the capital request schedule.

Okay.

That shows everything.

Right.

And some of those schedules that we ref referenced earlier were in the actual packet from Tuesday night also.

So they might not be in a hard copy.

I mean these collected these budget schedules are very I mean almost identical to what we will put in the proposed budget.

And so, you know, these the the program expenditures here feed up to the distribution of uh schedules that we were showed earlier that you know these and then feeds up into the summary.

So this is really kind of just drilling down into those totals.

The the printout, the newness printout that's behind these um schedules that look like that for each one of these programs is the detail of these numbers.

And so for you know, the capital the uh we put capital in here, so if you can you look through there, you know, there are capital um there's detail about what capital items are listed here that support this number in the schedule.

Sure.

And so that's available.

Um there's a detail level, of course, for us, which is helpful.

But again, I think for folks that are just following along or trying to observe this at the top line, being able to see, you know, hey, the fire department 400,000 of you know new equipment built at, you know, that level.

Thank you.

Okay.

We talked about this when the house tax the sales tax expires.

What's gonna happen?

Yes, uh it it's right now projected, I think twenty thirty-one, twenty thirty two.

When it expires?

Not when it expires, uh that's when it will run out of money.

Twenty thirty, okay.

About twenty thirty-two, somewhere in that neighborhood.

Which by us stretching the trucks out and just that one fund, though, right?

Yes, sir.

That's the 4803 tax.

And the taxes the taxes is due on uh is it 2028?

Is it 2030, 2030?

And it's three percent.

Something like that.

No, it's a quarter percent sales tax.

Oh, an eighth of that.

Yeah.

Okay, is that enacted by the board or by the voters?

Voters.

By the voters.

Voters.

Yes, sir.

So they don't enact it, then there's gonna be some issues.

Yes, because I think roughly I can tell you here in just a second, it's roughly like three point one million.

Yeah.

So that three point one would go straight into the general fund.

Yeah.

You know, come out of the general fund.

That could be a big hit.

Yeah, yes, it would.

Well, and I think the the thing to look at is is us being a uh what's it called?

That's not a schedule one, but a uh Oh uh yes.

Uh uh one rating.

One rating.

Which keeps it.

ISO ISO, thank you.

Insurance.

That keeps our our our my homeowners insurance.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

So I I think there's the there's a direct correlation to my pocketbook and my checkbook.

Yes.

Through that.

So Chief, is there is this is this saying no to some things that you think we should be aware of as directors that is going to have an impact, kind of the law of unintended consequences?

No.

The everything we have in here, we like I've told you before, we really don't put a lot of fluff in there.

We ask for what we really truly need, or we feel like we're gonna need.

So, like I said, some stuff.

And Jeff and I talked about it, but I'd already put it in there, like some of the stuff I could not put in there, like the extrication equipment, and then try and come back and get it reallocated later, but you know, I already had it in here.

But you know, I already had it in here.

So no, we ask for everything we need.

Any other questions for the chief?

I might just and Director Rigo just sort of asked me this question, but in terms of the apparatus replacement and schedules for that, those aren't reflected in these numbers, but if you might speak a little bit to what your upcoming schedule is on on that and the use of that sales tax money.

Uh don't have it right now in front of me, but uh we already have one ladder truck, two ladder trucks on order.

Yes, we have two ladder trucks on order.

We're looking at a rescue truck right now, and just be simply we have to have them on order because it's so far out.

Um then we'll start ordering when we order the rescue truck, we'll order a pumper and a rescue at the same time on it.

Just so that's just the way the schedule works for coming out.

We have everything planned out as far as like a ten year plan is what it was.

We've kind of stretched it out to like eleven and twelve for like our apparatus just to try and make them last a little longer.

But that's where I said you know we're keeping more reserves as well.

So that way the citizens are are never in any danger.

I I may need like a little bit of education on difference between a ladder truck, pump a truck.

The pumper is the ones that you see just the.

Oh, right.

I mean, right, right.

So when he says ladder truck, I it doesn't you climb the ladder to the fire.

Well, I know that.

I know that, but uh I mean I I I think I'd like to maybe give me some g I'm dumb.

Give me some pictures.

Um, you remember the last truck we brought down, the I mean big old long one had the huge ladder on top of it.

I might have been late to that.

You might have been late on that one.

That's what that's the ladder trucks.

Okay.

That's it.

But yeah, give me give me give me a picture.

Give me a picture.

You look at send us some information.

And give me give me a dollar amount for each one of those.

Okay.

Yeah, I can do that.

I think that'll help me long term.

Well, the other thing that's good to know is the lead time on those, because the ladder trucks are about what, three and a half or four years to three and a half.

The rescue truck when we've been talking to them about it, it's right at four years for it.

And then the pumpers are roughly, you know, two and a half, three, something like that.

I mean, I know I'll I'll uh uh I drive down Phoenix to go to work, and sometimes that that uh they're backing in the the truck.

That's a pumper truck.

That's a pumper truck.

That's a bumper truck.

Yeah, I just maybe if I looked at them, I I'd know what we're talking about.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, they're all just red and white.

So yeah, give me some pictures.

The manufacturing too.

There's only a few places that manufacture these, right?

And so that's part of the problem.

Yes, and uh, I mean there's some others that manufacture them, but we don't like the quality of their manufacturing.

So, you know, there's a couple that we've really really looked at, and but Pierce is still stands out above everybody, like when we replaced one of the last ladder trucks, we sure enough had them go head to head, and the place that didn't do as good a job actually was a little bit higher.

So I I know it's pretty limited, and I think Congress was looking at it from an antitrust standpoint.

Maybe nothing's happened with that yet.

But that's something I've been following.

Yeah, I know one group bought like a bunch of the smaller brands.

Right, and that's where they feel like it's yeah.

Just a new guy question.

This administration, is this what's coming from general fund, or is most of this coming from general fund except the one eight sales obviously is not?

Everything's coming from general funding.

Everything else except for the 4803.

And there were groupings here.

There were three groupings that are there.

Is this just because it's that many paper or any is there any science to these three groupings or the groupings are by are for each division or program of fire?

Right, like 4801 is our administration and stuff.

Forty-eight oh two is the suppression, uh the putting out the fires and the operations and everything.

Fort eight oh three, of course, is the tax.

And then 4804 is our training program.

Perfect.

Thank you.

Thanks, Chief.

Thank you.

I think next up, 6B is the parks department.

Sarah, did you have any introductory comments?

Uh particularly maybe highlighting the equipment stuff that's included for you in this one?

Yeah, absolutely.

Um if you don't mind, I kind of have I haven't had a chance to send this to admin if you want to know the truth.

I was out in the field doing some field things.

Yes.

So just kind of an overview, our budget.

I kind of looked at it, I did a comparison to what we're requesting this year versus the amended budget.

And it looks like we're our personnel and operating, we're decreasing that by over six hundred grand.

But if you look at that, that really wasn't a fair comparison because we had a lot of carry forwards with the hell damage, the roof repairs.

So based on our original budget and what we're proposing in personnel and operations, we're cutting it over two hundred and seventy-five grand.

Now with that, we do have some substantial capital requests.

I think we all know we need equipment.

And with that, we are absolutely not too proud to take something from another department that maybe has a healthier fund balance if we can.

And we have had those conversations, but no one really has a truck or anything that we can, but we are at the point to where we need equipment.

Where do three trucks now?

Three trucks.

Yes.

And you have the budget details.

I'll just give you an example.

We're out about 10 grand right now because our truck at the cemetery, it lost control, couldn't do anything, and it ran into a retaining wall.

The retaining wall we weren't repairing.

So that's what we're trying to do, but I mean, we can only band-aid them so far.

So whenever you incorporate what we're reducing in personnel and operations and adding our additional capital requests, we're still reducing that by over 50 grand from last year's original budget.

So just to recap some understanding, you're you've included your equipment you need, you're still coming in 50 grand from last year.

Yes.

And we have not had our meeting with uh admin and finance.

We have that tomorrow morning, and Brian, my deputy and I, we've really looked at this, and we do think there's some cuts.

And if Jeff doesn't mind me blindsiding him, I think there's one that's pretty significant, and I think it makes sense.

And it's the amendment to the ACME property master plan.

You know, we did that initial one for 422,000.

We needed that to really have that mesh of working with engineering, and if it's a future park, if we're going to sell that, whatever it may be, and that has really benefited this process because we've had little design changes that will develop future growth, whether it's park communities, open space, residential development, commercial, whatever that is.

So my opinion, kind of looking at the financial position of the city, let's pull off on that.

So next year, that's 175 grand.

I can take from that.

There you go.

Hold on.

It does not conflict with engineering.

This is totally ours.

We we did enter the agreement with that firm to do the for 422,000, which gets us to all the preliminary and just pretty much three general nice pictures.

Right.

Flood mitigation though would be a little bit more.

That is not ours.

It's still under engineering.

So that doesn't impact that.

I mean well, hold on, let me make sure I got it.

We we went we we agreed to a thing with with that company.

Yes.

Um what are you pulling back from that?

There was going to be an amendment to finalize that.

Okay.

So we're to finalize it.

What do you mean?

Yes, to have a hey, a lot of public input of what they want.

But I think I mean we kind of recognize where we are financially, and I think we're to the point we've helped steer kind of where those retention ponds are, and we're at that point where we can pull off and just kind of let things calm down, make sure that's still the direction we want to go.

So when when is when is that coming to us?

I would have expected we would have had it.

The not that you're already approved the initial we've already approved it.

I'm when are they gonna be done?

They we have a director ego's on the steering committee.

I mean, we have a meeting, hopefully, the first or second week of October to get that.

They have been working heavily with half associates engineering's design firm, and they've there's been a lot of background work, so hopefully we'll have something later this year.

Not to take too much time on this, but didn't we?

Shouldn't that already been done by now?

No.

It should not have.

Okay.

They're on schedule.

Okay, thank you.

Sarah, so what is your equipment number?

It is all combined three hundred and twenty-seven thousand.

Okay, thank you.

Yes.

And that's two truck three trucks.

It is and something else, or just three trucks.

It is one work truck, regular cab work truck.

It's replacing a two thousand six.

It's one that's needed to be replaced for probably ten years, and that's okay.

Another one is just two four-wheel drive crew cabs, one's replacing a 2004 and the other a 2002.

And then Oak Cemetery, that's the one that it needed to go away a long time ago.

We had to bring it back because we needed something, and that's replacing a 2005 dump.

And we actually reduced what we thought it was gonna cost.

We kind of looked at it and said, hey, let's just go bare minimum because we can do all the bells and whistles all day long, but let's get what we need to see if we can actually get it.

I think it's good.

Two questions.

The 47,000, that's not a vehicle, is it?

Which it says other equipment, Cap LA other equipment 53 1600.

What program?

Uh oh, that's the mowers.

The mowers, okay.

Yes, sorry.

We need to replace two.

We have two mowers that we've just been scrapping for parts and replacing them.

These are a grasshopper and Jacobson brand.

We use all Kubodas, these should have been gone a long time ago.

So it's three trucks, two mowers.

That'll that'll be huge.

And then is did we already get what you needed?

You were gonna get like a kind of a side-by-side smaller truck for this downtown.

We have that.

Okay.

Yes.

Thank you.

Yes.

And we, I mean, again, this is something I was going to bring up in our budget meeting, but since we're here and kind of talked about personnel earlier, we had an announcement of a retirement this week and working with HR and kind of internally we do plan to repurpose some positions and allow us to pick up some positions in the field versus kind of an office setting.

I know it's not going to be a huge cost savings, but it is some that we're trying to increase efficiency while trying to re do some costs.

I think this is good.

I think from my understanding uh looking at this parks department, your biggest need has been having equipment so your teams can work.

That's correct.

Okay.

Thanks.

Any other questions for Sarah?

So our our just kind of because it's it's been recent here that we talked about cemeteries.

Um eighty thousand is what you budget for Oak Cemetery.

Um I guess you're kind of adding three additional cemeteries.

That's not in the I know that I know that's not, but that if if if the board were to make those decisions to go that route, I mean you gave us the numbers, the one point some odd million.

I mean that 280,000 for one cemetery that we have today.

Yes I mean that that's that's a concrete number.

Now that's up from 2024, 167.

We had raises the three and a half percent.

And then the 345,000 last year included some capital.

Okay.

Yes.

Okay.

And then also some of those we had one-time security camera expenses.

We had a lot of vandalism issues.

So just uh cemeteries would be a tough ask, I think.

Yeah.

I can't I can't get there either.

I mean, it's hard really hard to think about that with these numbers that we're seeing right now.

I mean, obviously, if we get to this and see some amazing new epiphany, but I it's not adding to that.

Sarah, how much money does the cemetery that you've got bring in?

Do you have that?

I don't have it in front of me.

Honestly, uh Sherry's office, they handle all of that, but I do know let me look in the detail.

If I can oak cemetery hundred thousand, does that money go back into the parks department or does it go into the general general fund?

Because that's where the cemetery is funded, so technically you could say it does go back against that.

So it really total spend if if it's 150, is that what you said?

24 actuals, 155,000.

Um we've got projected 100,000 for 25, a budgeted 125, projected 100,000 for 26.

So you're looking at really to actual cost 180,000 in 26 if you're if you were if you took 100,000 off of that 280.

Yes.

Okay.

Did I cut you off?

I'm sure if I did.

Or you do not read it.

Go ahead.

I was just gonna ask, are we are we seeing a decrease of gray plots being sold in our cemetery oak cemetery?

Or have we seen that stay the same?

I'm not involved on that side, so I'm gonna have to defer to Sherry, sorry.

There is a little bit of a decline in 2025.

Okay.

I'd have to get those records for you, though.

I mean, I I feel compelled to say this uh as it relates to the cemetery issue.

Uh you know, we're not deciding it tonight, obviously, particularly given that we're not voting on anything and we're absent two members, but it's important for us to remember that the only options when it comes to the cemetery needs in our community are not do it exact you know, spend exactly the amount Sarah proposed, or spend nothing.

I mean, there are other options that would be worth considering, including you know, a phased approach, et cetera.

So as we move forward on this topic and in this budget season, I would ask us to re to at least give some consideration to the idea that those are not the only two options on the table or out there in the universe.

Thank you.

Thank you, sir.

Uh up next and last is 6C, the police department.

Chief Baker.

I'll make room.

Good evening.

I uh I know we're pressed for time and I I don't want to take any more of your time than than is necessary, but also want to make sure that everyone's clear on what we're doing in our budget.

Um obviously answer any questions that you got.

I put together or actually Miranda put together a slideshow to give you a basic overview of what we have asked for in the budget.

Um I know I sent out a text everybody when that first uh packet came out.

It looked like the police department was um making about a $2.5 million ask.

Uh I knew that wasn't correct when it went out, and Andy and I have discussed it, and I think the updated um information you have tonight shows us somewhere around 98,000 is the difference.

But I mean there's a lot of things that that come into play here, so I hope that we can clear that up for you.

Um but just as an opener, uh as uh Chief Boyd said, you know, we don't ask for anything um that we don't believe we need.

We we understand the situation that the city's in financially, and we try to be as as fiscally responsible as we can.

Um taking in not only our own needs but the entire city and and particularly the general fund budget.

Um just in the police department, uh you know, we we we had uh budget discussions a couple of months ago.

Uh you all were pretty much of the of the uh mindset that you didn't want the police department to cut anything, but we still moved forward with uh the idea of the 10% hold.

Um we are on track to meet that at the end of of 25, so that in and of itself will translate to about 2.4 million dollars that will be coming back from the police department to the general fund.

Uh inflation has driven costs up in everything and in every area, but we've tried to budget in a way that we can minimize the impact of inflation on our bottom line.

The majority of the increases that you see in our 26 budget are due to personnel costs, and those initial numbers did not account for the $2.5 million that we contribute from the sales tax to pay for those raises that were given to the officers in 2023.

And so that um that brought that number down immediately by 2.5 million.

The uh second precinct in 2025 for the 2025 budget, we had asked for 1.25 million dollars uh to start the uh build on on that, the training facilities, second precinct, and the real-time crime information center.

Uh that was cut from our budget initially.

Uh we never never saw those funds.

They were never deposited into our our budget, but then they were brought in in the 26th budget.

Uh we probably need to have discussions about that.

Uh 1.25 million dollars is not going to get us started uh at this point, and given the situation that we're in financially as the city, uh, I think that it would probably be wise for us to consider holding off on that maybe for a year.

We're looking at several options of way ways that we can generate some funds uh to help build that uh but that is that 1.25 million is included in the numbers that you were given.

Um there was also in a 20 in our 25 budget an ask for 143,000 environmental control and monitoring uh software and equipment for our uh environmental controls in the building.

Uh this is a critical need.

We we paid 300,000 for a a new cooling tower uh just a few months ago, and now we don't have the reliable means to make sure that that thing uh is operating efficiently, and there's a lot of bad things that can go wrong.

So we've asked to keep that in there this year.

That was that was brought forward as well from the 25 budget that had been cut.

Um there was a significant increase in the jail uh budget.

And I don't know that this is the place or the time to discuss it, but I don't I don't think, and I'm not a proponent of keeping a jail budget in the police department.

I have not been for a long time.

There's a lot of reasons why, but there's also a lot of influences on that that we can't control.

And uh I think in 2025 we budgeted $575,000 for jail expenses, and that's about an average of I believe $44,000 a month.

Uh in July, June and July, that that expense was over $100,000 for each month.

So if that continues, I mean that's $100,000 a month.

Looking at a million dollars over a million dollar year just in the jail budget.

Uh we didn't ask for that.

We asked for $800,000.

If the trend continues, that won't be enough.

So I know everybody's looking at ways that we can bring that back down and and hopefully not have to significantly increase that amount.

But that is included in our in our budget request.

I moved all capital expenses out of the sales tax fund that we had put in the previous capital improvement plans.

Uh that includes the $750,000 annual axon payment that had always been in the general fund after we got the sales tax.

Um we paid that in 2025 out of the sales tax fund.

But as I've indicated previously, uh we really need to get uh some raises again for the sworn officers.

We're we're not anywhere close to being competitive with the uh agencies that are pulling officers away from us.

Um I'm intend to ask for a 10% raise.

Uh my I that's not enough, but it's I mean it's a start, and I think it's you know um a good compromise for um where we are right now.

But my plan is to use the remainder of the funds that we receive from the sales tax to pay for those raises.

It's gonna be somewhere around 1.4 million dollars.

So by doing that, by clearing all of the the capital expenses out of the sales tax fund and just exclusively using that for raises, the the the 10% increase this year that that I'm asking for should not impact the general fund in any way.

Um and in that uh topic, the capital expenses, which our vehicles are our most our biggest and most recurring, um the fleet leasing program will solve that.

And so we eliminated all vehicle expenses, capital uh requests from our 26th budget uh with anticipation of that we would have the ability to move forward with the fleet leasing program.

Uh the one million dollars that that the um board has generously given us for the last several years uh for capital expenses.

Uh we intend to use that for the fleet leasing.

If there are any uh overages there, um we don't plan to come back to the board asking for for more money in that.

We have a plan for how we intend to do that, uh which also includes part of the program and how it maintains itself as we start uh rotating vehicles out and selling the vehicles off, it will uh start paying for itself and putting money back in the program.

Um and so with that um this these numbers that you have up here in front of you now are probably these were before the updated information that Andy sent out.

And just to just to boil it to drill it all down to 4701, which is administration personnel and benefits see an increase of 75,000.

Again, this was before the 2.5 million dollars was applied from the sales tax.

Uh the increase of 1.1 million in operations was due to the 1.25 million that was pulled forward from the requested uh 2025 budget.

4702, which is uh special operations, personnel increase 341,000 operations increase 724,000.

That is due to pulling the uh axon contract out of the sales taxes and putting it back into the general fund.

This thing doesn't know the difference between forward and backwards, or I don't.

There we go.

4703 criminal investigations, personnel increase uh 928, 845 operations decreased by a thousand, uh a little over a thousand dollars.

4704, uh this is patrol operations, the bulk of the department.

Salary benefits increase a million dollars, operations decreased by 386,000.

Uh that's due to us pulling the capital outlay request for vehicles out that we had uh put in the capital improvement plan.

Uh 4705 special operations, patrol special operations, salary benefits increase, 411,000, 412,000 operations decreased $3,398.

Uh 40 4706 airport doesn't have an operations budget, salaries increase by $76,578.

Uh $4707 animal control, animal services, uh salary increase $25,895, operations decreased by almost $100,000.

Uh I anticipate that probably will go up some administration uh decides to up the spay neuter uh amount.

Uh I believe it's $150,000, maybe more this year, uh, but we've um dialed that back to its original $75,000.

And we also took out uh uh animal services um equipment that we purchased this year with funds that um we received from the courts.

4708, this has already been talked about.

This program has been removed from the police department and uh has is his own department now, it's the River Valley Communications Center.

So that budget of 1.6 million dollars uh was removed from us, and I believe that's the last program.

4709 is the sales tax program, that's where the funds come in from the uh the one eight cent sales tax.

So there's still still quite a bit of work to be done with that as we get your approval or disapproval for some of the things that I've talked about tonight.

Um hopefully uh it it makes sense.

Um I mean to boil it all down, we're essentially not coming and asking for much of anything from the um uh from the general fund.

And we're offering a a solution uh I think that's gonna be sustainable and and take at least us out of the picture in regards to requesting vehicles um with this fleet leasing program.

So you have any questions?

Yes.

So do you have a again a top line like the fire department like the parks department uh provided in new equipment requests for 2026?

No.

Out of the gener meaning there are no requests or there's not a number.

There was only a couple items that were originally built in.

It was the uh one uh million and a quarter for the regional training facility and then 143,000 uh for the EMS upgrade, which I think you know that's what's in the numbers right now.

Okay.

I think you've are suggesting that we keep the 143 correct for the EMS upgrade and probably sideline the regional training for this for this year.

For right now.

Gotcha.

Okay.

Thank you.

Uh Director George.

You we're five but by position short.

I'm sorry.

Five positions short.

I'm not sure where that number came from.

I'm knowing I have to talk to uh um Eric uh about he said are you talking about the positions that he was talking about?

Those were non-sworn.

Am I correct?

Six non-sworn.

No, those are sworn positions, but those are those are only the recent ones that you've had in the last.

Well, the reason MASCO didn't we we currently have sixty-eight?

We currently have seven vacancy, seven vacancies in sworn uh in police.

But the officers that have led to do overpay over.

Most of them.

Most of them.

Uh I mean we're look we're losing a number of officers to state police.

They uh course they're about sixty-five thousand now.

Sixty-seven, I believe.

We need to work on address that.

Okay, thank you.

Yep.

Director Kemp.

Thank you.

Uh on on the spirit of that, because that's several things wrote down, just to kind of confirm back with you, you know, on the pay raises, because it does sound like it needs to be done, and you talked about 10 percent and talked about, you know, that won't make up kind of where we are with the competitors around us.

What uh how far are we behind?

Do we have a number target?

Uh like percentage-wise.

If 10% doesn't get us there, we're 20.

So we're 20 percent behind.

At least.

I mean, we started our starting pay is is fifty thousand.

That's the base salary for a police officer that has no training, no experience, no college, and I believe state police is uh they're they are starting at 67.

Uh I believe Fayetteville is around 65,000, 64,000.

Um to be honest, I mean we haven't lost anybody to Fayetteville in in a long time, but uh we are losing them to state police.

We've lost a couple to smaller agencies who have uh matched their pay, uh basically lured them a little lured them to a smaller, quieter jurisdiction for the same amount of money.

So would the you mentioned earlier in the in the study session on the fleet lease program that that could potentially also be considered as a uh a perk and a positive for our employment employments, is that correct?

I think it'll be a huge retention tool.

Is that just to confirm again?

This model that you talked about is going to keep us from having to come back because of the resale.

Is this correct?

And that when we resell, we get some we have built-in equity.

Correct.

And then that will also help you continue the program forward.

Is that kind of yes?

And and there were some questions about um some increases in in the amount over time, but what those increases didn't take into account were where the the money that we would get back for selling these vehicles.

And I mean if we're smart about the way we do it and we buy vehicles that have a high resale value and another part of that is by giving more officers their individual vehicle to take care of that it's a sign that they on those those uh vehicles are going to be driven less, they're going to get less um wear and tear on them, the officers are going to take better care of them.

So that's just going to increase that resale value.

And you've got that built in there.

The $2.4 million coming back in 2025 that we were forecasting, Andy, is that accounted for in what you think of coming back at the end of the year, or is that going to be two and a half or two point four million that we haven't accounted for and will continue to even move it more positive?

Um I think I think we'll account for that when we go through the projected spend and and see you know how the projected the actual projected spend for 2025 ends up compared to the when we had the beginning of 25?

That's the same.

Because I think that comes back to Director Martin's beginning questions of what kind of swing can we expect?

But if you got 2.4 million as a positive coming back, that's a that is a substantial swing and in the in the debt that we're talking about there.

Uh the last one is on the 1.25 million on the Crankia property, uh, and if if we pull back on that uh as you're suggesting or talking about that we should probably have more dialogue about, I do think that should be something we talk about.

Uh is there any advantage to, and I know you and I talked prior to this meeting, and I said, are you looking in that plan to tear property down and just utilizing the land and rebuilding structures?

And we talked about no utilizing what's there.

Is there any sort of phased-in benefit that you can have a just a relabeling of existing structures and you know label it Fort Smith Police and then you know you have some cars that a benefit to putting something there or or is that could you weigh in on that?

Sure.

And it's as far as just moving into the the building, no, there's too much work that needs to be done.

Um phasing it in is absolutely a possibility.

This is something that um I keep sending my folks back to the drawing board on.

We've got several different options to present.

Uh we have hired uh an architect to uh to design the facility.

Um and bulk of the in fact, all of that I believe has been the paid for out of the sales taxes for that for the design study.

Uh but we're looking at um a number of different options and also phasing in a number of diff different options.

So perhaps we could uh build out the training facility first, uh move into that, get a presence on the um on the property.

Uh there are a lot of benefits to that.

Um about sixty-eight thousand dollars a year, seventy thousand dollars a year we're spending to the county to rent space where we currently are.

Uh and and I mean my my hope is to have a uh regional um classy training facility that will attract agencies from from other areas, other states to come uh do training here.

Uh and there is absolutely an economic benefit to that.

Um those folks need say again indoor gun range.

I don't know that we'll do an indoor gun range.

There's a lot of a lot of hurdles to jump with that, but uh we're uh you need to go look at the firing range out at the landfill.

We have definitely doing some improvements out there, and I have to get take my hat off to uh Streets Department and and Solid Waste for the work that they've put into that.

Well, I'm all for if we have to pause in the sense I respect you guys and what you have for input to bring in that discussion.

I will say for whatever it's worth, the positive is I see more police on the south side of town than I feel like I've seen in previous years, and I don't know if that's how you're shaping the patrols and what they do, but we've seen a lot more police.

And your response time has been has been good as well.

So at least when I've uh Director Martin?

Chief, um I know that uh you send out the part one crime statistic numbers every month.

And there's a there's a number of of officers, and then there's kind of an FBI statistic associated with that, and they're different.

Um what is that FBI number?

Uh I mean, is it is that their recommended?

I think I've asked this a few years ago, maybe when I first started.

Is that the recommended number based on our population?

Okay.

It's the officer to citizen ratio.

And it I mean, that's a it that's a ballpark number, and you can find different um recommendations.

That's just the the FBI recommended amount, and I think it was about 198, what's the 100%?

1980 we should.

Um there are others that they don't go off population, they go off calls, you know, the number of calls that officers are answering.

But I mean uh we we we need more officers.

We could obviously serve the the the city better with more officers, but um if we can keep what we've got, I think that would be the the best start.

Did we didn't weren't you applying for a grant that was gonna get you five officers?

We vote we we we approved that just in the last few months at the I don't remember.

Say again, we apply for downtown we don't think we got it, did we?

We don't know if we got it.

Okay.

None of the grants have come back yet.

Okay, okay.

The reason that uh that I ask, and I know that there's various ways that people can pull statistics and what statistics say and crime rates and things like that.

Um one of the things that I hear is we have a high crime rate in the City Fort Smith.

I don't know if that's true or not.

Um but is there I guess what I'm getting at is do we have enough officers?

That we have enough officers, do we need more officers to be able to um either reduce that crime rate or you know, is it one cu kind of crime that is uh you know, we we we talked in the budget session, maybe in 23 about the youth uh officer that you've got in place.

But are there are there other things that maybe we need to look at?

And I'm not big, I'm not a big proponent of of adding stuff, but I am a proponent of looking at where we're at from a police and fire perspective and and assessing our needs and and say, do we do we have a uh a need or an urgency in which we need to add additional officers?

I don't believe there's an urgency.

Obviously, if we add officers, that's gonna improve um again our our delivery of services, but uh more officers means more we have to retain.

Um I would like this to get to the point where we're not having to continue to hire and recruit folks.

Right.

Um we have significantly slowed that down.

I mean uh the the attrition rate uh at the police department has is way lower than it was just a few years ago.

As to the uh crime being high in Fort Smith, I mean that you can you can look at the numbers uh and and numbers don't mean anything if somebody has been victimized by something, they're going to perceive that the crime is is high.

Um Fort Smith historically, for as long as I've been here has um been at or above the national average in regards to certain crimes, um particularly aggravated assaults.

Uh but if you if you look at our local trends, uh we are for the last three to four years, we have been steadily reducing that number.

Uh the violent crime, um the part one crimes, uh we're near over 40 percent below what we were in 2021.

Right.

Uh and so uh as we look as those numbers local numbers and local comparisons come down, what I want to start doing now is look at our comparisons on national average, and we want to get below that.

We we don't want to be above a national average in anything except the good things.

Uh and so I mean we we pay a close attention to that.

Uh we review those numbers every every two weeks in the comp stat process.

And when we see spikes, we address it.

Um we we had a a recent increase in in drive-by shootings.

Uh and we've taken dis decisive steps to address that problem.

Uh and we have been successful.

Um will we have problems again?

Yes.

And when they come up, we will we'll be on top of it.

Okay.

I I I guess my my my thought is, you know, uh if we're gonna look at adding something.

This is be an area that I want we I want people to feel safe when they're here.

I I feel safe.

Uh but I want to I want to make sure that we're giving you every resource that you can or every resource that you need to be successful.

Um I think you are, but but how can we be even even more successful?

So I look at those numbers, those FBI numbers, and and I look at it and say, okay, well, how do I need to square this thing away?

And uh and uh just know I think we I think the board is has has been pretty uh uh open to to ideas and suggestions, so I just want to want to make sure that we're doing our due diligence.

We do absolutely just had.

So we had 10 here now?

I'm sorry.

Ten ICE agents?

Ten ICE agents.

Yeah, the enforced uh immigration.

I don't know how many ICE agents that there are.

There, I mean, the last time that I sat down with the I supervisor, I believe there were.

Is your question about the ten people from the National Guard that were deployed to assist ISP?

I don't know anything more about that than what you see.

They hadn't contacted you.

No, sir.

Where do you think?

That's pretty crappy.

Well, I mean, it it was a bit surprising when the news alert popped up on on my phone.

Any other budget questions for the Chief?

Thank you, Chief.

Thank you, everyone.

Thank you.

Uh so as we've reached the end of the agenda for tonight, the question for my colleagues is did you find this format and this process and structure helpful?

Uh or are there changes that should be uh looked at moving forward in in some of the other departments?

I I wouldn't mind looking at utilities in this, but going line by line through everything feels like we're bringing the budget meeting to up before administration does some work.

And I would love to, like I said, look at utilities at a deep look, but then on these other uh focuses.

I would love administration to tell us two or three pathways.

Hey, on these other departments we can make some adjustments here and they can bring it back and then we could have a dialogue about that instead of diving into every detail of it.

But that's just my opinion.

Thank you.

I like to go line by line.

I mean, I've firmly disagree.

I want to see everything, I want to go through it.

I want to make cuts where we need to make them and know exactly how the budget is coming together.

I'll say this.

These these budgets tonight were not really the the ones that I'm eyeballing.

So it kind of I'm not going to cut police.

I'm not going to cut fire.

So this I I didn't really have a lot of uh uh you know a lot of thought, you know, uh uh concerns that I had out of this.

And I think our our chiefs and and and part good job.

Um I think there's other areas though in the general fund that that we probably can look at and and offering.

I just come back to we we will be doing the line by line look in the budget meeting, correct?

This all-day budget hearing that I sat through last year, the 10 hours.

Yes, November the 14th.

Yeah, I mean I'd love to see look at utilities.

I'd love to see where administration thinks we can talk about some good dialogue of these cuts.

But I mean ultimately we pay we pay a CFO, we pay an administrator.

I want to see you guys tell me where we can make these adjustments, at least give us some options at a and a view here.

Well, and the and the interesting thing to to keep in mind is that what we saw tonight, and I think why we started with these three is that these three departments that we talked about tonight over the last three years on average represent over 60 percent of the general fund spending.

So it was natural to begin with them.

And so the question, you know, and I hate to be like the Mr.

Logistics or Party Planner guy, but Jeff had proposed a notion of uh, you know, we didn't obviously settle on it, but having meetings, 530 meetings, I think uh the 15th, which is next Monday, and the 17th, which is next Wednesday.

So I wanted to check and see if that was something you still wanted to do, or we just wanted to try to have one uh next week and and work down next to you know utilities.

I think we need one for utilities alone.

Budget the whole time for utilities.

That I mean I would I would agree with that.

I'd be in concurrence for a Monday.

I don't want to do a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

I would do a Monday utilities look.

I like I think I agree, and then obviously our Tuesday meeting, and then I think we should see where it carries us by the end of that.

Yeah, does that mean anybody have a preference next week Monday versus Wednesday?

Because I do agree three three in a row is probably not the best answer.

I'd rather do Monday.

I cannot do Wednesday.

Okay.

I I cannot do either uh because of coaching obligations, which is fine, but just could think of that uh from a quorum perspective, you know, as we move.

We have to have four.

I would just say uh uh I could do Monday.

My daughter is having teeth pulled on Wednesday, so I'll probably need to be with her.

Yeah.

Are you out every Monday, Wednesday?

Yes.

Okay.

For you know, amend our study sessions and the next study session to focus on utilities.

I mean, so next week is a next Tuesday's regular voting meeting, right?

Yes.

But I'm just saying the next Tuesday study session.

Could it just be clear to look at utilities?

That would also give Lance time to make sure he has the adequate information.

On the on September 23rd, we have a uh consultant coming in for solid ways to deliver the information on that one.

And we have scheduled the I know the cemetery's discussion is coming back on the twenty-third.

I personally would love to pause on the cemetery until we have more budget conversations.

So I don't know how long the the presentation would take, but I think it would still fit to make that a study session on utilities.

Well and we certainly can do that, but I'm saying we have some we have someone scheduled to travel in to be with us then present on the other.

Do we have an idea of how much time he needs?

Remind us what that that is regarding.

They've been working on this for two years just about.

And they need to get in front of the board with their uh we need to be aware of this.

Well, could we not just do both items?

I would not I mean we're not looking at any other department budgewise except utilities.

Yeah, that's that's not a that's not a terrible idea.

I wouldn't think I mean, do you imagine he'll probably have I mean we'll have a presentation and slides and all that, so that'll be probably five to sixty minutes altogether?

Well you're talking about including us talking.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean if if I would think we could accomplish both on uh the night of the twenty-third, provided we you know police ourselves in the sense of if we limit ourselves to around an hour or so on the solid waste item.

And we did that tonight.

We were 724, we said 73.

I also think uh the nights we gain back by not adding should be factored into the equation by putting this in our regular schedule.

We're not adding to our schedule the presumably this gentleman's coming to present for a rate increase, right?

Is that what they're looking at?

Well, not that'll be more than an hour long discussion.

Well, but not specifically that either, but just a review of the of the department.

I mean it was it was mentioned not so long ago a comprehensive sort of plan for uh water utility or something like that.

But this this is that sort of thing that's already been in the works for solid waste, which is will be important for us to do that.

I mean it does have the potential to have a long so can I cycle back to what were focuses avail of the four of us, I guess because we're the ones that are left.

What were the availabilities you all could could do Monday the fifteenth?

Or was it vice versa?

Because I know uh Director Kit Savis, you mentioned Wednesday wasn't good for you next week.

And so the 15th potentially work.

I I I just realized, you know, JV football, I'm I'm not my son.

I would rather just pick a Wednesday that I will find a guest speaker.

Yeah.

Uh and so if there's a Wednesday here that fits it.

And also if I might uh just add to that, on this particular Monday, the fifteenth, we are scheduled to be with utilities all day long through finance and admin to go through their budgets and so in order to do that and then turn around anything to produce for you that would be as a result of that would be nearly impossible to do by 5 30.

Well, is it I'm sorry to interrupt.

I'm sorry, just for the sake of back on not adding to things in the rhythm of this Tuesday.

Is there a rush that we have this in September?

I mean, could we do the next study session that's available to be for utilities?

It would be October the twenty-first.

What about do we not have one on the 14th?

October the seventh is a regular meeting.

No.

Well excuse me.

Wait a second.

How is the 14th?

The 14th would be the study session.

That's what I was saying.

Could we not do it on the 14th of October?

Thursday is not good for everybody.

I mean it's Thursday we're all here.

I agree.

Th Thursdays are it for the next month or so as it relates to um or through to October for for baseball, uh, the coaching that I do, it's Mondays and Wednesdays, Thursdays are better.

Thursdays is better for me.

So the 25th, but I think the eighteenth?

Thursday the eighteenth for utilities work work for more of us than not.

Well uh Jeff, would you mind sending um I guess you know it is important to know what Director Good and Director Settle and their schedules and and all that?

Or even Thursday, you know.

Well uh Jeff, would you mind sending um I guess you know it is important to know what Director Good and Director Settle and their schedules and and all that or even Thursday you know yeah I mean there's it's important and we recognize that it's important to I mean we do all acknowledge it's important to sit and talk about utilities itself and have it have a devoted uh session to that and so um it remains a work in progress scheduling it but why doesn't Vice Mayor Chair Rigo call the city clerk tomorrow to make a motion for Thursday, September eighteenth and let all these directors concur or not concur.

Yeah I mean that's that's certainly a possibility.

I'll be over that and last but not least, all the city folks that are here and and you know I and all the staff members and and their families, we want to say thank you uh because we know there's extra meetings and things happening out of the usual rhythm.

Uh and you know you've been very patient uh with us and helpful to us as we try to budget and do it a little bit differently this year.

So thank you for uh hanging with us and and coming the to these extra gatherings.

Um we're grateful for your help and your wisdom as we go through this.

Indeed.

Anything else before we adjourn tonight?

Motion to adjourn.

Motion to adjourn.

Second.

All right.

Thank you.