Well, I'm not going to be able to

We have among us greatness, but not just any greatness, female greatness.

Happy beginning of what I guess is women's history.

Are we just celebrating women all together this whole month and every month?

I think we're just always celebrating women.

But um Katie Barkdow, thank you for joining us.

Um Director Barkdale had previously given this presentation or something, I didn't I didn't do it side by side, but a general sort of presentation to the last council.

We had begun to have somewhat broad conversation about our taxing authority.

Uh and yay.

And um we just asked to, as we were beginning to consider the work of this committee and really how we wanted to move forward with discussing taxes, it made sense to kind of start from the base, the beginning.

So I appreciate you doing this.

I know it was kind of a repeat, but um, it was very good information last time.

So take it away.

Sure, thank you.

I'm happy to be here.

Good afternoon.

Um, as uh Council Vice President Nash said, I'm Katie Bark, I'm the chief financial officer for the City of Frederick.

And I was invited by council leadership to come and um talk to you a little bit about our taxing authority.

Um this is a very broad topic, as um, Council Vice President Nash said.

We're gonna go kind of an inch deep and a mile wide today.

Uming that each one of these areas we could probably do an entire conversation around.

So, you know, we're willing to come back and do that um based on you know your feedback and and requests.

Um here we go.

So our taxing authority.

So the first thing about that is that's important to know is that our authority to levy taxes and provide tax credits must be authorized under state law.

If it doesn't exist in state law somewhere, then we can't do it.

Um we do pass local ordinances that provide the structure around implementation of any tax that we would levy and um any tax credits that we would provide.

And that authority comes from the tax property article um six-three oh three.

Um, and City Code Article Um five, section eight-13.

Um as you are familiar, or you will be very familiar soon.

Um we set this tax um we set a tax rate annually via ordinance as part of the budget process.

Setting this rate is required under state law, but the deadlines are really strange.

State law requires that we set our tax rate by June 20th.

Our code says July 1st which needs to be updated and then for all intents and purposes we actually need to pass our tax rate by the end of May.

Because what happens is the um the county who is an excellent partner with us as far as our Treasury services regarding um property tax they have to send they collect all the property tax rates from every municipality in Frederick County and they send it off to STAT by their deadline and and STET for people watching that don't know is the State Department of Assessment and Taxation.

They require that that information to be sent to them usually by June 1st um depending on how the calendar falls so take that information they will calculate everybody's homestead tax credit send the file back to the county in the middle of June and then the county can print and mail everybody's tax bills so they're in their mailbox by July 1st so hitting that date is really important.

If we were to miss that then the county would have to mail our a separate billing on our behalf our taxes bills would be late and we would likely have to reimburse the county for that.

So not impossible but with a situation we'd like to avoid.

Could I just jump in really quick because I think that's come up before in the context of the budget conversation and it's a really important sort of the way it's always been maybe even though in city code because I find myself even getting oh we have we have more time than we actually do but it's more of a we want to set it we want to go ahead and set it earlier because it just doesn't really make sense from a good government's perspective to make life harder for our partners is that a nice is that a nice way to say that sure absolutely even though the date is the date it actually is much sooner.

Yeah and it makes it somewhat more complicated because we give a discount on our on your taxes if you pay within 30 days so our clock would start ticking at a different time period than the counties would but yeah to to council vice president Nash's point it does make us a better partner with the county who does actually provide that service to us in every municipality in the county um for free they don't charge us for these services the last thing on this is the state does allow we we could ask we get asked this often if we could set different rates based on classes of property that is allowable under state law we have to define what a class is our code says that a single tax rate will be will apply to all property except for habitually vacant properties and when you get the um ordinance to look at for to set the tax rate there'll be a chart in that ordinance that lays out what that tax rate is for habitually vacant properties.

Any questions about that before I move on so the concept for tax setoff is provided in the tax property article of the state code 6-305.1 this provision is specific to Frederick County and tax set off you'll hear it called a couple names you'll hear it called tax set off tax differential tax equity we use all these terms kind of talking about the same thing and basically it requires the county to reduce the tax rate or provide a direct rebate to a municipality for duplicate services.

So a duplicate service is a service that is provided by both the city and the county and I'm just I'm bringing that up because oftentimes we talk about this and this is a very hot button topic when we talk about this the the concept of our department of housing and human services will come up and on the county side they'll bring up transit right we we our HHS provides services countywide and transit provided by the county is not only in the city but it's predominantly in the city neither one of these things are a tax setoff issue.

They're very important issues without a doubt but a tax setoff is solely services that are provided by both the municipality and the county so what is included in the calculation that we use was agreed upon in 1981 and it includes planning police parks and roads prior to 2013 the city received a rebate from the county it was around five to six million dollars a year is what we received from the county in a direct rebate for tax set off.

It was around five to six million dollars a year is what we received from the county in a direct rebate for tax set off.

Um starting in 2013, the city elected to go to a tax differential, which means essentially for city residents, the county lowers their tax rate.

Um and effectively that first year we raised our tax rate.

The county lowered their tax rate 12 cents, we raised ours eight cents, leaving four cents with the taxpayer.

Um right now, the county tax rate for city residents is just over a dollar.

Um it's a dollar eleven for residents that live outside of the city.

The ordinance or the um statute in State Code does require the county to discuss the formula with municipalities annually, which they do usually part of an MML chapter meeting.

If you are kind of working through that process, that's where you'll likely find that conversation to happen.

It usually happens around September.

Why do we do it that way, Katie?

That is a great question.

Um I don't particularly know.

It's just a way that the I would imagine that all the municipalities are in the same place at the same time to have the conversation.

It's honestly a box checking exercise.

Um it's really not any sort of in-depth review of the calculation or anything like that.

Um the county does have the sole authority to decide if that calculation is going to change or not.

The county has the I'm sorry, I say that last part again.

The sole authority to decide if they are going to change the calculation or include other services in that um formula.

The meeting is in state law.

But the the calculation based on services, police, planning, parks, was that a county ordinance?

Do you know?

Or it's okay if you don't know any.

There is not an ordinance to my knowledge regarding that.

There is an agreement that was signed by the county and all the municipalities that participate back in 1981.

I have a copy of that that I'm happy to distribute if you'd like.

That's kind of interesting.

Could we have a historical record?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Let me make a note of that, because I will definitely forget.

This committee, we we're trying to be sort of like the budget nerds, Katie.

So we're trying to learn the details behind the details.

Yes, I'll send you some historical tax equity files that are that I think are I think that are pretty interesting, so you'll see, but it just kind of shows you how long we've been doing this and how old this is.

Given the time since that document was created, is there any value in the city getting together to reevaluate internally whether or not we feel any changes are needed and then approaching the county to have that discussion.

I think at minimum we should schedule a conversation after we have a chance to digest it.

Uh schedule something up here and and Director Barkdow will certainly make you aware of that, but I don't know that it's necessary that you but attend, but you might want to.

I'm also I'm not sure that I'm not sure that this is the this is the thing to I would say throw a fit about.

That's me.

I I can't I I have a visceral reaction when we're compared to all the other municipalities in in the county.

I I don't know that this is I understand this is more of a logistical thing, but it just makes me crazy.

So I'll just say that out loud, but I'm also wondering about that.

But we can we can punt that for now and have that conversation.

But thanks for doing that deep dive, Katie.

Sure.

I mean, I I can say that I haven't been involved in many of the conversations over the past probably five to eight years.

Um the city does request at these meetings that the calculation be looked at.

Um we are definitely in the minority when it comes to the other municipalities in the county.

And before I move on, I did not prepare a slide for this, but I did want to mention that the city has the authority to tax business personal property under state law.

The city has phased out assessments for business personal property.

We do not we we will levy a tax, as you will see in the ordinance because we still tax utilities and railroads.

However, all other business personal property is the assessment is essentially phased out.

So there's a tax, but there is no assessment.

So essentially the tax is zero.

And remind me, if if we had a I'm gonna get the word wrong, classification.

There's residential, commercial, all kinds of what was the right word?

For properties.

For business personal property?

No, for uh class classes, I'm sorry.

If can we assess could we, if we passed an ordinance, assess business personal property based upon just a class of property or right?

I believe the class of property for business personal property would need to be called out in state law and utilities and railroads are.

So if there was ha if there happened to be some other industry that is not in the city that might be coming to the city at some point, and we wanted to tax their business personal property, we would likely need the state to make a change in their law to do that, or we would have to reinstate it for all businesses, is my understanding of how that works.

Now I believe the county is pursuing that this year, and I don't know where that is in the process, but that was part of their legislative package.

Great, thank you.

Hey, Katie.

Um historically our tax rates a little bit higher than most municipalities.

Is that because we don't do the personal property tax for businesses?

Because like Gathersburg and Rockville, they both have the personal property tax for businesses and their tax rates are lower.

Um I don't know if there's a direct correlation, but yeah, I mean, our real property um revenue does fund the majority of the general fund.

So if we did institute a business personal property tax, then we could offset that with um a reduction in real property tax.

Um, I think that what's interesting about the city, and uh and I hopefully I don't get this wrong, compared the city of Frederick compared to other municipalities, is most other municipalities don't have a full service police force like we do, um, which is it it is what it is, right?

It's it's an expensive service that is well valued in the city.

Um, but that is usually the the difference in services and whether or not they collect trash.

Yep, thank you.

As part of the municipal services.

When you have a moment, can you get me the I looked for it?

It isn't the citation for defining utilities and railroads.

Yes, I will get that for you.

Because there it could be another way, a hypothetical industry coming to Frederick that has large-scale electricity usage.

There's another way possibly to do that, right?

Okay.

Okay.

Thank you, Keene.

Sure.

So income taxes, this is a um this is the tax that we receive, but we do not levy.

Um the city receives a piece of income tax that's collected by uh that's collected from city residents.

Um however, the tax that's imposed is set at the state and county level.

Um the city receives the greater of 17 percent of the county income tax liability of city residents, or 0.37 percent of the Maryland taxable income of those residents.

So this is kind of a passive tax.

We don't do anything um to receive it.

This is um in state law exactly as written for the tax that we receive for income tax.

Corporate income tax is imposed by the state.

However, the state does not share corporate income tax with local governments.

Is this uh second bullet is the 17 percent or 0.37?

Is that true for every county, or is that a county by county different?

It is true for every municipality in a county.

In Frederick or in every county?

In Frederick, in every county in the state.

Okay.

I'm sorry, I didn't understand your question.

Okay.

Um we receive the least amount of revenue for, we get about between $600 and $700,000, $600 and $700,000 a year for a mission and amusement tax.

The state law says that the tax may not exceed 10 percent of gross receipts, or the rate set by the Maryland Stadium Authority, which is capped at 8 percent.

I don't believe we have anything in Frederick City that is that has a tax imposed on it by the Maryland Stadium Authority.

But essentially, under state law, you can tax an admission to a place, the use of a game, use of a game of entertainment, the use of a recreational sports facility, use of rental or recreation equipment, um, or merchandise, refreshments, or a service sold or served in connection with entertainment where music, dancing, or other entertainment is provided.

Yeah.

So what we do in our code, what we have in our code is that we impose a tax on 10% of gross receipts from sources derived from admission and amusement, 5% of gross receipts derived from horse-drawn carriage operations and concerts, or have horse-drawn um carriage operations anymore.

And one half of 1% on the sale of merchandise, refreshments or services sold in connection with entertainment or music, dancing, or other entertainment is provided.

That last bullet point, if we get a thousand dollars a year on, then it's just it's a it's kind of a nothing thing.

But that's this is what our code says.

We do exempt certain things from admission and amusement tax.

We exempt recreational sports teams or leagues, um, health or fitness classes, membership fees for um fitness or rec facilities, daily usage fees and rentals of equipment related to rec activities, um qualifying arts and entertainment enterprises.

Um we have an A or an arts and entertainment district downtown.

Um anything within that district is not subject to this tax, um, or live theater.

So I want to pause on the taxes that we can levy.

Were there any questions on that?

Um there are other taxes certainly in state law that we are um not eligible to levy.

Um alcohol tax, tobacco, um, we are specifically excluded from that in state law.

Um hotel tax is an interesting one because they've the state law has changed and they've incorporated um short-term rentals under hotel tax, but under under the provisions of hotel tax, is that a municipality is authorized to levy a hotel tax unless they are in a county that has a hotel tax that they use to fund tourism.

And our county collects a hotel tax and they remit all of it to tourism except for an administrative fee.

So we are not eligible to levy a hotel tax under the state law as it's currently written.

That makes me crazy.

Because so the policy concerns around having Airbnbs, and this is more of a concern, I think, in Annapolis.

I would uh when I think about Airbnbs that have sort of taken over a town and become the become the town, you know.

I think we instituted rental, I'll just say when we went instituted rental licensing, I think it was a just the right moment because there are impacts to city residents by having individuals or corporations owning large parcels or amounts of homes and then renting them and the fact that the city doesn't recover any of those costs.

I mean, I guess we do through property taxes.

I guess you would that would be the counterargument to that, but the tourism budget, I I mean we have Richard Griffin in the audience, but I I that's an interesting Okay, I'll stop there.

That's it's an interesting nexus, that's all.

How about that?

It is, and you know, we would we likely need to do uh some more research on that because while the county does levy a hotel tax, I don't believe they levy a tax on short-term rentals.

Um if that if that's something we wanted to explore, perhaps there's a way through state law that would permit us to do that.

I don't know.

Frankly.

This is a relatively new addition.

I mean, only if we see only if there's a benefit.

I mean, I I think I would Madam Chair, I would love to explore that tax.

We'll add it to the list.

Even if it's a thousand dollars a year, I share your concern about short-term rentals and the impact on housing and the impact on neighbors.

I agree.

The only other question I had about that about your presentation thus far, Katie, was the tax classifications that we have that really aren't earning additional funds or that are sort of almost cost cost neutral for the city.

Have we explained, I mean, would it be worth it to suspend those or to end them?

I mean, are they are they costing us more in administration than like is the juice worth the squeeze?

I guess is how I would put that.

For A tax, um we don't administer that.

That's all done at the state.

Okay.

So from administrative standpoint, I would say no, it it it's not, it doesn't make a difference to us.

Um would it alleviate a burden on our small businesses?

I you know, that's a great question.

If they have to fill out those um forms anyway, I know that um we've we've heard a lot, and Richard's here, so you know that's what he gets for showing up.

Um if he wanted to comment on um kind of the how the business world feels about an A tax.

Um imagine they're not very fond of it, but um I knew there's a there is an MML priority, which I actually think is really strong to increase the AAA tax, but I just don't know, I don't know enough about the classifications to speak any kind of way about what's impactful and what's sound.

Maybe that's a revisit too.

It's it's really interesting on our on our part that you the we don't see the the actual returns that are filed.

They're filed just like a s like tax return or sorry, sales tax returns, and it's proprietary information, so it's really not public information about who's submitting.

We don't we don't know who we're getting the um the actual revenue from specifically and the specific amount.

We can request it, but we can't release it.

Um we believe that the city's golf course is one of the top payers of A tax.

Um so you know it's a roundabout way of paying ourselves.

The the Frederick Keys are a big um c contributor or payer of the of the A tax.

Um the flying cows, they they they are a another large source of of A tax for us.

Yeah, that sort of seems circular to me, but I I don't know enough about it to but maybe we can we'll take another look at that too.

Okay, thank you.

So as I said when I started, so tax credits are uh also need to be provided for under state law.

Um I did my best to try to put together a chart of all the tax credits that are provided for under state law, what we have on our books or in our code, and what the county has in their code, and then the different credits um that are being used and how many people are taking advantage or businesses are taking advantage of these credits.

Um I this table is supposed to be just illustrative um to give you a sense of what's available.

If there were two tax credits or more that we have that were authorized under the same section, I just lumped them together on this table for that purpose.

Um wanted to um make that or bring that to your attention.

So from our tax credits.

There are the county offers two right now that we don't um that we are actually bringing forward to you on Thursday for your consideration.

Um these ordinances were introduced back in October.

Um, so they're coming to you for a formal vote um on Thursday.

One of them, and before I talk about each of those tax credits, um, again, talking about what a great partner the county is.

If we implement a tax credit that is identical to one of their tax credits, they will administer it for us.

Um we don't have a tax credit office.

Again, the county handles all of our treasury function.

Um maybe one day we should or we should have a tax credit office, but until that happens, um having the county handle this on our behalf is certainly beneficial to the city.

I also think it's less confusing and beneficial to the taxpayer if credits mirror each other, and there's one application and one set of rules that they understand um kind of moving through the process.

The county does have a a tax credit specialist on their staff that handles people that it will call and they can walk them through all the credits that they're available to them.

Um if there's certain credits that um you know you can't stack them, you can only take one.

They they help them determine which is the most advantageous for them, and it's a really wonderful resource.

Um in the county does a phenomenal job at managing tax credits.

So the first credit is um in relation to child care, um child care centers, actually.

Um it's a credit for daycare providers who have made an improvement on their property that is dedicated to a daycare center, whether it's child or adult.

Um that credit is maxed at 10,000 or the total amount of the tax.

The tax credit can't exceed the tax owed.

Um like I said, it's it's the tax attributed to that portion of the property.

So if you have home daycare or, you know, and you put an addition on or you create some sort of improvement related to that home center, then they can determine the tax that is attributed to that improvement, and that is where the credit is, and that is offered both residential and to daycare or adult daycare centers on business property as well.

The second credit, um, Katie, can you go back to that?

So it would be in our best interest for the daycare tax credit, for example, to keep that at 10,000 to mirror the county and not to have it be higher.

The $10,000 is capped in state law.

Okay.

Okay.

So we could not make it higher.

Thank you.

Sure.

The second tax credit is for the surviving spouse of an individual who dies as a result, or in the course of employment as a law enforcement officer, or in the act of service of a fire rescue or emergency medical service.

Um this credit is 100 percent would be 100 percent of our tax for five years.

The county has that in place.

Um of the county tax for five years.

This is a good time to disclose that I serve as the political director for the local firefighters career staff union, but this is not something we are pursuing and not something I am involved with.

Thank you.

And then last but certainly not least, we have the ability to enter into pilot agreements.

Um this is usually handled through our um housing and human services department directly with um our council.

These are agreements for affordable housing or senior housing projects um that are allowed provided for under state law that basically provide a credit, usually per unit or for the entire um project that I wouldn't say it caps the tax, but it doesn't actually do that.

It provides a a certain credit per unit provided um for a set number of years.

Councilmember Atkins is probably forgotten more than I'll ever know about pilot agreements.

But um yeah, we have we have many of these.

We enter into them often as a regular course of business with any affordable housing project.

That is the end of my prepared remarks, but I'm happy to answer any questions or back on tax credits, and again, thank you for putting together this very helpful list.

If we wanted to pursue another tax credit, I mean you mentioned two that are coming to us, but if we wanted to pursue another one, is the key to make sure that the loss of revenue is made up by some other increase in revenue?

What logic would one use in order to put forward a proposal to add a tax credit?

Um I mean I hate to say this, but it depends.

Um the two tax credits that are coming before you right now, no one has applied for the child care tax credit.

There's the center tax credit.

Um so I don't know what that would what the offset of revenue would be.

Umsually with new tax credits, we can absorb those pretty easily into the into the next year's budget.

Um I hope we never ever have to use the tax credit for a surviving spouse of a you know fallen um law enforcement or emergency worker.

Um, but you know, being able to absorb that credit is is it's not going to be a budgetary issue.

Um so it would depend on what credit it is and what if we could reasonably project um what we think the lost revenue would be.

Right.

And does the state have a cap on all of these credits?

Or is it that was the cap just applicable to the child care improvement?

It was just applicable to that specific credit.

The state is kind of all over itself, all over the place when it comes to tax credits.

Some of them are written so in such a vague manner that says, you know, you can provide a tax credit, you know, under this circumstance, and you can decide what that credit is.

We're not going to get involved in that.

Um it just provides the opportunity to do it.

And some credits are very, very specific.

So it depends on the line.

Pick an example.

And there I thought there were lots of opportunities here, but credit for property owned by Habitat for Humanity used for the purposes of development and transfer to a private owner, if we formulated a uh just say $10,000 credit.

Is that the logic that we would employ?

We we identify the tech the tax credit and um an amount, discuss it, vote on it, and unless there's a state cap, then that's what it is.

Yes, that's that that would be essentially be the process.

I don't know if that's for that specific one what the actual details in state law are.

Right, right.

But um yeah, if there's an interest um from council to pursue another or several of these, we can absolutely do that.

Okay, so step one is to chat with you and get the details so that we know what exactly is involved with that credit.

Yes.

And I consult with a legal office to make sure that I'm not giving legal advice that is inaccurate, which I tend to do sometimes.

Before you move on, Katie, I have a quick question about so and this we can have a follow-up or we can look deeper into this, but legislatively or I guess legally, the difference between fees and taxes.

How do I know the difference?

And and let me so we mentioned tobacco, right?

What if the city wanted, and I'm I'm sure this is probably prohibited in state law, but let's just say it isn't explicitly explicitly permitted or prohibited.

If I wanted to levy a tax on additional tax on tobacco by the PAC as a city council member, how is that different than if I said every pack sold incurs a three dollar fee?

Do you know what I'm you know what I'm getting at here?

So it I don't you can get back to me.

You don't have to, it's not a gotcha, I just don't know.

The the very short answer is that a tax is typically a revenue generating mechanism and a fee would have to be a regulatory fee.

There would be something more to it than just payment.

So we have all kinds of regulatory fees that are that are fees and not taxes, impact fees, things like that.

So there's a there's a nexus between the assessment and the purpose.

Right.

Or I can have fun with that.

Yeah, a fee to me would be you're paying a fee for a service, you're paying a fee for a very specific thing for a plans review for an inspection.

Um then a tax is just more levied on a j for a general purpose and not there's not a direct correlation between a service provided.

And our master schedule fees it includes I should just look this up, but you just know.

So includes assessments on commercial entities, not just on residents.

Like it's not our master fee schedule, it's all of our fees, right?

It's it's like so if I wanted to assess, for example, Verizon for not having adequate cell service in the City of Frederick, that would be included in the master fee schedule.

Because it's coming from if you're charging them a fee for something that they're buying from us, then yes.

Okay.

Um we couldn't levy a higher tax on Verizon specifically.

Gotcha.

Okay.

This is unrelated, but fun fact, there's a state in the U.S.

that has to go to all of the residents and ask them, can we raise taxes?

So they always say no.

So this state has a lot of fees.

Anyway, so look at Colorado if you want to know how to how to do fees.

I I just wanted to raise a hypothetical.

Um hypothetically, could we have a fee to inspect all liquor stores and establishments that sell cigarettes?

A fee to inspect establishments that sell cigarettes.

To inspect them for what compliance with compliance with selling to underage people.

Their signage, they have to have signage by state law.

I actually know a weird amount about this because I worked on a bill one year.

Not currently.

I have no client in that space.

But we would only inspect it if it if we are expecting for compliance with a law that we enforce.

Um it's state law, the liquor board controls inspector.

So if it was a liquor law, that would be we don't we don't really enforce liquor laws directly.

Um I don't know.

That's something we would have to talk about a little more, I guess.

I think it would be fun.

All right.

Katie, softball question.

Pardon me, losing my voice.

Softball question.

Prior to last year, when was the last time we raised taxes?

Prior to last year.

Didn't we raise them last year?

We low we lowered taxes last year.

Oh, that's right.

The last time we raised taxes was in 2013 when we um offset the lowering of the county taxes for tax set off.

I don't know when the last time we just raised taxes.

It was before my time at the city.

I would imagine it was before the Holtzinger administration at some point.

I'm sure that it's happened, obviously, but I don't know exactly when.

Okay.

Thanks.

Anything else for Ms.

Sparkdaw before we move on?

Looks like we're finished there.

Thank you, Director Bagdahl.

Sounds like we're gonna have more good ideas and follow-up conversations.

Nothing you're not used to.

All right.

So we're gonna move on to the conversation that was it started about roughly a month ago.

Uh we had sort of vaguely started trading ideas about what we wanted our work around budget monitoring or budget.

I mean, yeah, that's really the only way budget monitoring to what we wanted that to look like.

So what I did was I tried to put together a schedule.

Um we'll go and I'll go through that, but my thought about next steps would be after we have a chance to get our feedback and discuss that we would I love hearing myself like double.

Is that you?

We're gonna hold the phone because we're getting some feedback, Lance.

This is awesome.

I don't think it's me.

Test one, two, three.

Thanks, Lance.

Oh, wondering how you're talking about.

If you were watching online, we just had a bit of a feedback loop coming in.

So we're gonna, I mean, I'm sure so many people are watching online right now, but we're gonna okay, so we'll continue.

So the thought would be that after we have a chance to review today in this committee, that we will then take this as a work product for the full council to review and discuss at a future meeting.

Um with that said, there's sort of a couple of different tenets to this that I wanted to highlight, and then I'll open it up for discussion.

So I took I tried to take uh the policies from the comp plan.

I threw them in here so that you could see.

Certainly we are within that direction to figure out how we want to on an ongoing basis uh consider the budget and how the implementation is carried out.

Um we of course are limited in the charter uh discussion of the bifurcation of responsibilities.

So we know that the executive as the administrative head of the city uh all staff reports to the mayor, and so ultimately, and so you know that is sort of a amazing tenet of our democracy that we have this sort of you know oversight challenge with our legislative body, but also knowing that the people that are doing the work every day uh ultimately report to the mayor.

So we just want to you know uh keep that in mind and be aware of those sort of um limitations as to what we can achieve versus you know with a monitoring program.

But I think the goal, and I I'll just speak for myself, the goal is to have greater transparency and quite honestly accountability for the council to have better awareness about what's going on and and what you know what we can do uh to be helpful and to ask the right questions.

Um so some of this is just information sharing.

There was also concern raised in the February meeting to make sure that we were trying to do our best to not create new work.

So the work that's already going, we we know that um Director Bachdahl and her team are already doing a lot of monitoring work.

So we wanted to sort of figure out how we could take the work that's already being done and just sort of have that information be shared uh in broader context.

So I wanted to make sure I lifted up that idea as well.

And you'll see this is reflected on page three, some of the things, some of the items that have come up in that discussion.

Uh I tried to capture those notes.

And of course, uh, if there are additional notes that I did not capture at any time, please please let me know.

So just basically in an just high level of what this document seeks to achieve, the beginning of the document outlines um the schedule for uh essentially how we would uh achieve the sort of in-between work um of the of the budget.

So um essentially it outlines um our priorities and the work that we do, and we had an opportunity to uh sort of brainstorm our priorities, and I know that work is I just talked to the council president about this.

I know the work of identifying you know specific council member priorities is ongoing.

So having those priorities reflected from the districts, having those reflected from our colleagues who represent the city at large, ensuring that those priorities are um held sacred for the year and ensuring that we are making progress on those priorities in one way or the other.

And let's just say um, you know, my idea that the city takes over building cell phone towers so that we have cell coverage, it's a pie in the sky idea, but there's certainly things that we can do to like work towards you know, understanding how that would happen and and what are the barriers to that, right?

And so just making sure that from a council perspective, we're doing the work to at the end of the year um be able to report on that progress.

So that's one.

And then sort of the second big kind of bucket I would say is measuring the um it's you know more in line with the performance budget concept of measuring the outputs of uh some of the programs, some of the specific funds, some of the initiatives that have already been proposed, and creating a schedule for the way that this committee um is doing that work and then reporting out to the larger council.

Um that I think report out could be as simple as an email that is then shared at public hearing, or you know, we can talk about that, but it doesn't necessarily need to be a separate meeting.

It just needs to be sort of this ongoing uh work that it is is achieved.

So that's what you have in front of you.

Uh all ideas are welcome.

I have it in a Google Doc that I have open so I can make edits as we talk today, but um that would be the goal is to share this before the full council uh with as soon as we can, but you know, not rushing.

So your thoughts are welcome.

One issue we had talked about was uh the ability for a department to move dollars within the department uh and then at some point in the year to move dollars between departments, and I I didn't see it in on either page.

Somewhere if we could add that, that would be great.

Good find, yeah.

And then it is the annual budget part of this discussion or just the review of the existing budget.

So the schedule that's proposed tries to take into account the fact that really for the months of March and April, we're we're reviewing the the fiscal year that's in front of us, right?

Um historically what has happened, and I think we've we've talked about that, but just so we put it in context.

Historically, what has happened then is that we really don't talk about the budget again.

Um so that's what this is trying to get in front of.

Yeah.

For for the presentation of a new budget, uh is it appropriate to put it in this document?

It would be great to see last year's number.

Sure.

So the police wanted a million dollars last year, this year they want 1,100,000 just because that helps spark conversation.

Year over year members, yeah.

Right, exactly.

By line item.

When you get into the categories of measure or measures, sorry.

Um, it says study measures.

Are we talking like project studies like an E Street design study or I could see why the planner would think that, and that's a good call.

Um I'll make sure I clarify.

My thought is that we have really good studies that we've conducted that have nothing to do with planning, but let's say um the parks master plan.

Well, that's let's take uh the re-entry, the re-entry um group that met and they have recommendations.

Once those recommendations come to us right now, unless someone takes the initiative to measure those outcomes, no one's measuring it.

So it's more the um uh parks master plan, the housing study, like no one, there's no like next step.

So creating those sidewalk.

Yes, sidewalk, yes, thank you.

And then just uh number four or five financial health.

I think it would be interesting, and I'm sure Katie will jump up as soon as I say this, um, to talk about uh bond capacity, how much capacity we have to bond for future projects.

Preferably I'd like to keep that number low.

I mean a greater bond capacity than have it max out all the time.

Katie knows I'm always trying to max the credit card.

Uh where did you uh I you said it, Joe, and I just missed it because I was writing the where did where would you put the bond capacity discussion?

Uh number four on page five for categories of measure.

And just uh and these are all examples.

I mean, nothing's written in stone.

I think it would be helpful to maybe have directors uh chime in on this, you know, some and like number of permits.

I think that's the easy one to uh measure.

It's an easy one to gather data for, but maybe it's not.

Maybe there's just something that you know can't be gathered.

So I think it would be good.

And maybe something that they want to highlight as well for their various departments.

Yeah, I think um the departments being able to weigh in, and it's it's good for them too to to show off how well they're doing or to measure how well they're doing, or to measure what they're doing.

Um stone, but if we do ask them to do something specific, they're like that's not really how we do this, that's not how it's measured, then they could say that at the time also.

Like here's a barrier to getting that information, yeah, et cetera.

So my thinking is given given the timing because we're gonna have um and the count you just haven't had the benefit of seeing these yet, but the when the budget is released, we'll receive budget memos that may provide greater insight as to some measurable items.

I I think perhaps proceeding through the year, sort of uh migrating would be the word to, you know, so that we're not asking maybe for all of this for this budget, given that it's already March, but that this is where we're headed, you know, this is where we want to take this work.

I just wanted to be realistic about the timeline and not for the many department heads that were listening that they didn't think this was something that we were gonna just send out today.

Yeah, I think that's good for us too, because I don't want to arbitrarily set anything.

And I kind of need to see what those memos will look like or what this budget process is like in order to put anything meaningful meaningful in there.

Would it be appropriate or fair to ask folks to come when they come to budget hearings if they have metrics to share their either actual or proposed metrics with us?

Even if they don't have data, I I would welcome somebody saying, oh, this is this is how we really should be measured in my area.

Maybe a way to maybe a way to do that is to write a letter.

I it can come from me that is directed to the mayor and Katie that say this is the discussion we're having, and kind of encapsulate and just make it clear that we intend to seek that input, you know, maybe just as a way to just so that they know this okay, this this conversation occurred, there will be additional conversations.

Um maybe that's a way to do that.

Does that sound good?

Okay.

Okay, so again, the folks that are in this room get another bite at the apple.

We'll schedule this to come before the full council to get everybody's input about how this is flowing.

Uh and again, at that time, I'll make sure I'll make sure that letter goes out before this comes back up so that staff have an opportunity to know that the conversation is happening if everybody feels comfortable with that.

And thank you for putting this draft together.

No worries.

No worries.

Okay.

And then just briefly, because I like to keep us at close to as an hour as we can be.

Um I did include just an update on our backup as with respect to where I saw the world.

Um I don't currently have just being transparent.

The elections work.

If it's okay with the committee, I'd like to continue sort of gathering information and putting it together in a way and then pick it kind of back up in May, just being realistic about budget coming and we're not so pressed for time with that.

But we'll keep it, we'll keep it going.

So I'll what I'll do is I think I'll provide an outline for different presentations and folks can add those as you see fit for our next meeting or for the next time we're together.

Just as a high level the sort of what Libby what Councilmember Taylor is doing next week is kind of like, you know, as we have programs that we want to kind of take a deeper dive in and like that's a great so if you have something that you want to you know want to schedule or that isn't being currently scheduled in another committee and you want to take a look at that, um just let me know and we can schedule those.

Um and then we are working on creating a list of all studies.

Um and I'll I'll try to rephrase the the work that's being done to like re do deep like research these issues on deep dives, like the sidewalk study, for example.

Um we want to try to collate all those.

And so we'll have a presentation in the at the end of March that collates everything.

Um so if we miss something, that would be the good time to tell us.

Um and then charter changes.

I think we agreed that we were gonna create a list, and then did we did we plan to take them one by one?

Did I we were gonna create a like a draft list and then we're gonna okay.

And then just we'll I'll bring that back before committee so we can discuss how we want to handle that.

Anything for the group up here that we are that you'd like to get scheduled that we're not working on.

We're scheduled right now until the end of March, so we've got we've got a little bit coming up.

So it's good.

Any public comment?

No public comment.

Nobody likes to talk about taxes as much as we do and fees.

Please, yeah, come on up.

No, you're here.

But I wasn't sure when a great opportunity would be to make these comments.

But um first of one just thank Council Vice President Nash for all the work that you did on your a budget work plan.

I'm super excited, and I think that it actually marries very well with work we're already doing, which is what I'm gonna kind of share with you is in the last budget, we were approved um to move to a new budget module.

It's called OpenGov.

Um we've been since August working as hard as we can on this to implement it.

Um I thought we were gonna have it ready for this budget presentation.

We're it'll be about 50% ready for this budget presentation.

Um we will be ready to launch, launch this on July first with the new budget adoption.

But this does tie into what you're talking about eventually.

The I think what I uh and what I'm looking kind of for council to come back and share with me the best path forward is we're going from no technology to all of the technology, right?

And we are now able to build templates and things out of our budget that we never were able to do before in terms of reporting throughout the year.

Um and we're gonna start that work full throttle in April for a July 1st launch.

So if there's a subcommittee of this group or this group would like to participate in the building of those templates, I think I'd like to invite you to do that because it's very labor intensive, and if we can kind of get ahead of everybody's expectations, um I would welcome that um involvement.

Um we expect to be able to push out to council to the public, CIP project spending by project on just an automated basis.

It's really exciting right now.

We just type everything in spreadsheets and it's terrible.

Um but we are we are really moving into modern technology on this.

So that's all I have to say about that.

I think just our intent, just in case you missed, we do not want to duplicate work.

So we will I think it sounds like you're moving in the right direction.

I won't speak for everybody here, but I think I speak for everybody here that we don't want to we don't want to get in the way of that work, and we also don't want to um you know put something arbitrary like like Libby said, or Councilmember Taylor said we don't want to.

So we're with you.

That's awesome.

And Katie, you've always been a fantastic partner when it comes to challenging the way that we've always done things versus, you know, and you've only been in this role for a hot minute.

That's a technical term, but I think like what now you're maybe three years, three year three, which in the city terms is Yes.

Yeah.

So that's awesome.

Thank you.

So yeah, we're excited.

So I hope you are just I'm so excited too.

That is really really great news.

And the public will be really excited, and I like to visualize things and maybe to be able to play with stuff.

I don't know if it's interactive or not, but I would love for us to to work with you, City Council to be able to work with you with building that out.

Yeah, I think yeah, I think I don't think it's a great partnership on for both sides of the house.

Great timing too.

Cool.

Yeah.

Do we do we need uh committee permission to work with Katie and her team on the build out?

I'll entertain a motion.

I mean if you want to.

I I think we're I did speak to the mayor about this earlier today, and he's on board, so for what that's worth.

I uh time being finite, I would I would welcome a chance to work with your team on that.

Yeah, I think that's great.

All right.

So we'll start setting up that um those meetings some point in April.

Yeah, we're kind of like the worker bee committee here, so we're pretty we're informal, like everybody else says this is we're trying to push stuff to council as much as we can.

So if there's anything that we can do to help, we'd want to help.

So that's great.

Thank you so much.

All right.

And with that, we are adjourned.

Thank you very much.

Four minutes over.