All right.

Call to order the meeting of the common council for Tuesday, August 5th, 2025.

Clerk.

Thank you, Your Honor.

We've got 11 members in the room and 11 members in civic clerk.

All right.

Thank you, Clerk.

Now rise for the Pledge of Leasons and remain standing for an invocation offered by Alder Ritterbush.

Pledge allegiance.

To the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands.

Thank you.

I'll make it short and sweet.

I just want to uh thank the police, the fire department, uh Fisk Park, Navarino Park, and everybody else that's having national night out tonight.

I wish we could change the council meeting to a different night so we could attend.

But uh thank them all and uh let's have a good meeting.

Thank you.

Thank you all that much.

On to approval of the minutes.

Motion to approve made by Alder Delee, seconded by Alder Prophet.

Any changes here?

Seeing none, all in favor say aye.

Opposed nay.

Yeah, I have it, and the minutes are approved.

Uh approval of the agenda.

Motion to approve made by Alder Presley, seconded by Alder Stevens.

Any changes here?

Alder Johnson.

Motion to amend the agenda to move item R two before L.

All right.

Alder Johnson makes a motion to amend to move R2 before L.

Is there a second for that?

Second by Alder Galvin.

Any discussion.

Seeing none, all in favor will say aye.

Oppose nay.

The ayes have it.

The agenda is amended.

Motion to move.

Motion to approve is amended.

Motion to approve is amended, made by Alder Johnson.

Seconded by Alder Eck.

Discussing on that.

Seeing none, all in favor say aye.

The ayes have it.

And the uh agenda is approved as amended.

Report by the mayor.

Um, just echoing Alder Ritterbush's comments.

Really appreciate all the neighborhood associations uh who have come together once again to sponsor national nights out.

Um, just a great opportunity for neighbors to come together and um demonstrate their support for one another and for their neighborhoods.

And so the chief and I had the opportunity to attend just a couple.

Um, it's a tradition, Alder Ritterbush, for us all to bemoan the fact that we have a council meeting on national night out.

So unfortunately, we're doing that again.

But um, yeah, was was really glad to be able to get to Fiscal and uh to Navarino, and thanks to everybody else who um has organized as well.

Um I think that's it from me, so we'll move along to announcements from council.

Thank you, Mayor.

Um, I have a couple things going on in um actually in my district, specifically my neighborhood.

Um, one is being put on by the Green Bay Park in Wreck and Forestry.

Um, it's the Great Mirror Slide this Friday from two o'clock to five o'clock, slide down a giant slip and slide on our sliding sliding hill.

And then two to five, the Green Bay area school district.

Uh food service will be serving free walking tacos to kids, and then um five fifty for adults.

And then it is five dollars to do the slide um per person.

And then from 230 to 3:30 in the Green Bay Metro Fire Department, we'll be making a guest appearance, and then um Friday night at seven o'clock.

The John Beer Park Neighborhood Association is doing um our movie night.

It's Milana 2, so it's kind of a newer movie.

Um, there will be free popcorn and snacks and lays for everybody that that comes.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Any other announcements?

Alder Delete.

Thank you, Mayor.

Uh, this Friday, we have our second round of grooves on the green.

It's at Fisk Park from six to eight.

Come enjoy some great music with Troy Heinz and the 57s and enjoy some food from the local food trucks.

And then also uh this Saturday, uh, I think Alder's previous Alder Shoyer is ready for this one.

Uh Pickle Fest is going on at Murphy Park.

Um, starting at 9 a.m.

There'll be learn to play pickleball tournament, food trucks, kids' games, and live music.

Come check it out.

It's going to be a big deal.

Inevitable.

Yeah.

Anyone else for announcements?

Six eight.

All right.

We'll move on to appointments.

Um, new appointments.

Motion to approve the new appointments made by Elder Stevens and seconded by Elder Delee.

Any discussion?

Seeing none, all in favor say aye.

Aye.

Close nay.

Yeah, it's time.

Yes.

Elder Morgan is on now.

Oh, very good.

So I'm going to go in to change the roll call for him to be present and voting.

And so that means we have 12 members voting.

One person is attending remotely, and 12 members and civic clerk.

Okay.

Thank you, Clerk.

Uh, so those new appointments are made onto reappointments.

Motion to approve made by Elder Stevens.

Seconded by Elder Delee.

Discussion here.

Seeing none, all in favor say aye.

All right.

Close nay.

The ayes have it.

And that reappointment is made on to public hearings.

So this is miscellaneous ordinance number 03-25.

An ordinance adopting an amendment to the Smart Growth 2022 comprehensive plan of the city of Green Bay related to property located at the 2100 block of Ducard Street.

Parcel 21-1229 from medium high density housing to low density residential.

Is there anyone here who'd like to speak to this item?

Anyone here who would like to speak to this item?

Anyone here to speak to this item?

Clerk, let the record reflect there's no one here to speak to that item.

Um now we're on to ordinances, second reading for adoption.

Alder Prophet makes a motion to suspend the rules.

Seconded by Alder Delee.

Let's take up all these items with one roll call vote.

Any discussion?

Seeing none, all in favor say aye.

The rules are suspended.

Motion to adopt made by Alder Presley.

Seconded by Alder Prophet.

Any discussion?

Seeing none, we'll use the board.

All right, let's pass 12-0.

Uh now, because of the amended agenda, we're on to R2.

Alder Johnson makes a motion to approve.

Seconded by Alder Prophet.

Um on this Alder Johnson.

Thank you, Mayor.

Um so for those who've been following along, this is related to the uh the purchase and subsequent lease of the Green Bay Drop Forge site.

Uh, this was actually had to occur outside of the development agreement.

And our law department has been working directly with uh Drop Forge.

Uh, there's a couple of amendments that uh out of finance committee that we had requested that our staff continue to work with with their team.

And so a couple of amendments that we need to make to the agreement that I believe have been mutually agreed upon.

But what I want to do is maybe offer up these this amendment.

I'll do it as one, and then um, and then I'll open the floor after that in case there's anything that uh that the seller wants us uh that you know wants us to hear or understand.

So uh so the motion uh to amend includes a couple of items.

The first is that the purchaser's financial obligation uh from a max of $50,000 would be raised to $75,000 as a 50% split in costs, including obligation to split the DNR fees, include the purchaser's responsibility to pay these costs in event of a breach by the purchaser and revised associated provisions accordingly.

Uh second item would be the purchaser will contribute $2,000 to closing costs.

Next item would be that the landlord agrees that hammers and other equipment embedded in concrete, eight furnaces, 26 presses, and four computer numeric controlled equipment identified on a list provided by the seller and accepted by the purchaser as a commencement of the lease term may remain on the real property at the end of the lease term.

All equipment installed after the commitments to the lease term shall be removed by the tenant by the end of the lease term.

Parties agree to meet upon notice of lease termination, discuss the contents of the real property and for qualified demolition contracting confirms in writing that the cost of removal of equipment, personal property will not add to the cost of demolition and remediation.

City may allow the tenant to leave equipment and personal property on the real property at least termination and subject to legal review.

So that is the motion is to amend the document.

All those items.

Any comments on that attorney coach?

As we specified with the amendments we've agreed to.

I believe we've agreed to.

Okay.

The owners here as well.

Great.

Thanks, Turney.

We just kind of worked out some of these details, I think, over the last the past week since finance committee.

And uh I think we're in a comfortable spot.

I'll certainly uh let Mr.

Hoban speak to that.

Umce we take the vote on the amendment.

Okay.

Sounds good.

Any discussion on the amendment?

None.

All in favor will say aye.

Aye.

Aye.

The ayes have it.

And the amendment is uh adopted.

Make a motion to open the floor to hear from interested parties.

Elder Johnson makes a motion to open the floor, seconded by Alder Delee.

All in favor, say aye.

Aye.

The guys have it.

Floor is open.

Mr.

Hoban.

Bill Hoban, 1341, South State Street.

I believe that all the items we did talk about over the last few weeks were addressed.

Did you uh section nine of the on the lease addendum?

Uh um which piece specifically was that uh Lacey.

Do you know if that got switched the the width and the without and the okay that's included?

Said yes.

Okay.

Yeah, otherwise I think everything else is in line.

We were asking before this meeting to have the uh embedded in concrete taken out of the the document, and it seems like it was still read in there.

So that was um the list that I provided is giving all the items that are basically too large for us to move out with our own existing equipment and believe would be much easier to get out in a time where demolition is going on.

So some of those items are not officially embedded in the in concrete as it sounded like it read, but of a weight that we don't have the ability to get out on our own.

So as long as we can continue to clean that up over the next day or so.

I'm I'm good with everything that was said.

Okay.

Great.

Any questions for Mr.

Holbin?

I would just speak to that mayor.

The you know, Bill, I think the embedded in concrete is that language is still there.

However, it doesn't imply that all of this equipment must be embedded in concrete.

Okay.

Um, the way that it's written and where the the commas are.

So I think we're safe on that one.

Okay.

Sounds good.

Yeah, I didn't trust me.

I didn't see the language officially because it got down to the wire and you read it quick, but as long as that's how we agreed, and we have a chance to think uh to me, there's that that mutual understanding here, which you've got a public record now.

You know that it's stuff embedded in concrete in addition to the other equipment that was listed.

Okay.

In concrete or otherwise.

Thank you.

Right.

All right.

Thanks for your testimony.

Thanks for all the work on this.

Um motion close the floor.

Motion to close the floor, made by Elder Delee and seconded by Elder Ritterbush.

All in favor will say aye.

Aye.

The ayes have it, and the floor is closed.

Alder Johnson makes a motion to approve is amended.

Seconded by Elder Delee on that motion.

Yeah, I just want to thank uh Mr.

Hoban, of course, the the newly branded uh WE Hoban and Company.

Did I get that right?

Okay.

So uh but the I did love the rebranding, by the way, and the recognition of the long family history here, uh, not only with that business, but here in Green Bay.

And so really sincerely appreciate not only investment that you we've already talked about, and the investment that you've made in the industrial park, but recognizing an opportunity that the city has here to continue part of our waterfront development strategy and to ensure that we get the highest investor this property in the future.

So thank you for being uh such a great partner with the city.

Any other comments?

Alderact.

Okay, uh, thank you, Mayor.

Um, I just want to clarify that um on the motion it says to direct staff to continue negotiate to negotiate options.

So that's still going on.

No.

So your motion is coming out of committee.

So my motion is to approve the agreement with the amendment.

Amendments because you made those amendments at the committee, if I remember correctly.

Oh, we were proposing them.

Okay.

Uh it sounded a lot like the same wording.

So okay.

Just wanted to clarify.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Any other comments, questions?

Seeing none, uh, all in favor will say aye.

I closed nay.

The eyes have it, and that item has been approved as amended.

Um, thank you, Mr.

Hoven again for all the work.

Uh, this is exciting for your company, obviously, but also for the city of Green Bay.

So much appreciation.

Next up is Committee of the Whole.

Um, item one is for consideration and possible action on the invocation policy for common council meetings.

Motion to approve made by Alder Stevens.

Um seconded by Alder Eck.

Any discussion on that?

Seeing none, all in favor say aye.

Oppose nay.

The ayes have it, and that has been approved.

Next up under committee of the whole is consideration with possible action on development agreement 25-07 revised from the July 15th, 2025 common council meeting with Grand Boulevard Department's LLC for the development of uh zero grand boulevard tax parcel 23-243-1 to include 265,874 dollars for site grading subject to final legal review.

Motion to go into closed session.

Alder Johnson makes a motion to go into closed session on this item.

Sorry, second, seconded by Alder Eck, Alder Johnson.

You have the language.

Coming council may convene in closed session pursuant to sections 19.85 subsection one, subsection E Wisconsin statute for purpose of deliberating or negotiating the sale of public properties, investing in public funds or conducting other specified public business as necessary for competitive for bargaining reasons.

Common council may thereafter reconvene in open session pursuant to section 19.85 subsection two statute to report the results of the closed session and consider the balance of the agenda.

Thanks, Alder Johnson.

Uh, we have a motion and a second.

Any discussion on that?

Seeing none, we will use the board.

We may vote.

Yes, logging into closed sessions, okay.

Thank you.

All right, that passes unanimously.

So we are in closed session.

Bring the council back to regular order of business.

Uh motion on that.

I think we need a motion to get back in the open.

Oh, sorry, motion to return to regular order of business.

Uh Alder Johnson makes a motion to return a regular order, seconded by Alder Eck.

All in favor will say aye.

Oppose nay.

The eyes have it.

We're back.

Alder Johnson.

Alder Johnson uh makes a motion to approve.

Seconded by Alder Presley.

Any discussion on that?

Seeing none, all in favor say aye.

Opposed nay.

The ayes have it.

And that item has been approved.

On to um M report of the landmarks commission.

I think Alder Hutchison had a comment.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Uh, your honor.

Um, I'm a member of the landmarks commission.

I just want to give a 60 second summary.

Uh, the new members who are here who are not new members anymore, except one have not been had the joy of meeting uh uh behind closed doors for the landmark commission because nothing's made it to us.

We're the like the final step if there's this agreement.

So the landmark commission reviews major exterior work to all historic properties within the city that are within historic uh areas.

Um in the last five months, there have been a dozen approvals by commission by the commission.

Okay, there's been 10 approvals by staff.

So if you add them together, it's 22, which is on par for uh the commission was established in 2018, and that averages about 25 uh decisions every five months, five or six months.

So we're pretty much doing the same amount of work consistently.

So I just wanted to bring up the fact that the commission is alive and well, it's working, and um, if you're ever in the area on a commission day, it's usually on a Wednesday, uh third Wednesday of the month.

Come and uh join us.

So thank you.

Thanks, Alder.

And all the Johnson, Mrs.

Landmark.

So I was just gonna say, and I wanted to thank the mayor for uh replacing my role on there with Alder Hutchinson.

Got that engineering expertise, right?

So comes in.

It's important work, thank you.

Yes, indeed.

All right, so that's an informational item.

So we'll move on to improvement in services.

Motion to approve made by Alder Ritterbush and seconded by Alder Stevens.

Um items here to be handled separately.

Five.

Any others hearing none others?

All in favor of the remainder of that report, we'll signify by saying aye.

Aye, aye, oppose nay, the ayes have it.

The report has been approved, the exception of item five.

Your wishes here.

Motion to refer to committee to be brought back when bids are available.

All right, Alder Johnson makes a motion to refer this back to INS when bids are available, seconded by Alder Galvin on that.

Alder Johnson.

Yeah, and I just uh I don't know if director forgive me, Valerie.

Uh your last name pronunciation juiced in.

Okay, I didn't want to mess it up.

Uh I didn't know Director Justin, if you had um any additional information to share.

I did talk with Director Ditchite about it, and he indicated that there was plenty of time to bring this back, but I didn't know from your perspective you had a different angle.

If Dan's okay with it, that would be fine.

Okay.

Director Ditch had anything to add on that.

No, I I think we're planning on bidding this project out probably around October.

Uh, so we're hopeful that you know we may be able to fit it within the committee schedule.

So I think that we can hold it for now.

Okay, if we need to bring it back, we will otherwise we'll just go through the standard process.

Okay, so it's good.

And the reason I brush it is I mean, it's a you know, this will likely be a multi-million dollar contract, and I just think that's one of the roles of councils to have that oversight when these bids come through.

So knowing that we have that plenty of time to do that.

I feel more comfortable with council having some oversight there.

Okay, uh, so we have a motion and a second.

Any other comments on that?

Seeing none, all in favor will say aye.

Opposed nay.

You guys have it, and that motion succeeds on to report of the protection and policy committee.

Motion to approve made by Alder Stevens, seconded by Alder Prophet.

Items here to be handled separately.

Hearing none, all in favor will say aye.

Yeah, I have it, and that report has been approved.

Uh Green Bay Police Department granting operator licenses.

Motion to approve made by Alder Prophet seconded by Alder Hinkfus.

Uh any abstentions or names to be handled separately.

Seeing none, all in paper say aye.

Opposed nay.

The ayes have it.

That report has been approved.

Plan commission.

Motion to approve maybe by Alder Prophet.

Seconded by Alder Delee.

Items here to be handled separately.

Three.

Any others?

Just a notation.

Yeah, Alder Johnson.

Uh mayor to record uh an abstention on Q2.

The applicant is a member of my executive committee, oversees my compensation.

So noted.

Uh so item three will be handed handled separately.

Any others?

Hearing none others, all in favor of the remainder of the report signified by saying aye.

Guys have it.

The report has been approved, the exception of item three.

Your wish is here.

Alder Grant.

Thank you, Mayor.

Um, I just want to start by motioning to open the floor.

Uh, the developer is here to talk, and just in case there's anybody else from the community that wishes to speak.

Alder Grant makes a motion to open the floor, seconded by Alder Eck.

Uh all in favor say aye.

Aye.

Opposed nay.

The eyes have it.

The floor is open.

So for any interested parties who would like to talk about the development of 146 single family um sub uh a lot subdivision at 2958 Nicolay Drive and Zero Durham Road.

Um, just approach the podium state your name and address going on twice, doesn't look like it's that's right.

Doesn't look like it's that's right.

Motion was the floor made by Elder Grant.

Seconded by Elder Hinkface.

All in favor say aye.

Guys have it floor's closed, Elder Grant.

Um sorry, can I make a motion to approve?

Motion to approve made by Elder Grant and seconded by Elder Stevens.

I'll direct.

Okay.

Umder Grant, anything?

Just a quick comment.

Um, after listening to the plan commission and speaking to residents, um, you know, I think it's hard when we have developments come forward because it's coming forward because there is a variance.

There is the ask of smaller lots, and I think that's a valid reason to listen to our community about how they feel about those lot sizes.

Um, I do I do wanna state that majority of the residents that I did talk to, this area is seeing more and more developments come forward.

And when we talk about density and things like that, while this lot sizes are skinnier, they are not smaller.

Um, and that is a note that I want to make sure people are aware of.

The square feet, a square foot area of the lot is a quarter anchor, a quarter acre.

Um, so that is pretty standard to our city lots.

Um, one explanation that I did get from the developer is that for utilities, it is actually better for the developer to have narrower lots.

It saves them costs with that.

Um, I did ask the developer if this development was the standard 75 foot lot width, if that would be a make or break for the development, and he said yes, it would.

So I think that's something that um as speaking to more and more residents over the last week that was a consideration when you know, again, do they like the idea of the smaller lots?

No, but the alternative that could come forward and result of this developer walking away could be much different and much of a bigger impact to the area as far as the concerns of traffic and things like that.

Um, so I just kind of wanted to give that quick rundown and explanation.

And again, I do overall support this project because most of the residents did understand big picture.

This is ideally what this neighborhood was looking for.

Owner occupied single story, um, homeowner or owner occupied, sorry, like I said.

Um, and I think this will be a great addition to the neighborhood.

So that is why I support the project, and I hope you guys do too.

Thanks, Alder.

Uh Alder Prophet.

Yeah, one question on the PUD under signage.

Um, I know the developer was interested under I1B and C for those to be two signs rather than one.

And I see that we still in this PUD have one on both of those courts.

Where I I do believe that when it was at Plant Commission, it was changed to two.

So just want to note that what's in our packet in front of us only calls one sign out at Baywater and Travertine.

I personally would like to see two.

I think it just aesthetically looks awkward with one of those small things.

Um, and I think Plan Commission did recommend.

I know.

Alder Hutchinson, you're on that.

Okay, yeah.

Um, just go to staff and then Alder Hutchison.

Um you're correct about that, Alder Prophet.

Okay.

Okay.

Right.

Planning information did approve two for entrance.

Okay.

Do we need to amend that draft list in our packet?

Scrivener's error, as they say, or we'll make sure it's correct.

Okay.

Okay.

Great.

I too support this project.

Great.

Any other comments?

All right.

We have a motion and a second.

All in favor will say aye.

Oppose nay.

The ayes have it.

And that item has been approved.

Yes, Alderek.

Um, I would um like to reconsider 05.

There is somebody um that would like to speak.

Okay.

Um, yes, so Alderek makes a motion to reconsider 05.

Seconded by Elder Johnson.

All in favor say aye.

Aye.

Opposed nay.

The ayes have it.

And motion to open the floor.

We'll say aye.

Opposed nay.

The ayes have it.

The floor is open.

Um, and this is on to approve an agreement with citywide software, LLC.

Hi, my name is Rick Vanderlees, 2240 O'Connor Road.

I'm the president of the apartment association of Northeast Wisconsin and the Fox Valley Apartment Association as well.

Um, I just wanted to comment on the citywise proposal.

Um, we've we have coalition members across the state, uh, Milwaukee, Kenosha, Racine, all over the state.

And so we have some context, if you will, within how that program's working in some of those areas.

Um, I don't think it's worthy of saying we don't support it.

I think it's worthy of going back to committee and having a discussion more about it.

I found out about this just a couple days ago.

And I think there's some kinks in the armor, if you will, of some of those programs that they're initially working on board in Kenosha in particular, that um I've spent some time talking to the Kenosha Landlords Association and the board down there.

And there's just some things that I think we need to figure out and if they're doable and we can figure them out.

I think we continue to have that conversation at the committee rather than at the common council level.

That's just my my recommendation was what where this should go really we can address I'm sorry.

2240 O'Connor Road.

Okay.

Thank you.

Yep.

If I could could you just state maybe what some of your concerns might be or what you've heard from others.

Yeah so the a couple of the concerns in Kenosha in particular is the properties that are listed out there are no longer available.

So they've been rented four or five six months ago and they're still showing as being available.

So I think something that's with good intentions as to why we might want to do this in the city gets a lot of bet publicity within both the city as well as the rental community those looking for housing and the owners and the property managers because they get frustrated by it then.

Also it I think there's a dichotomy between those who are paying for that service and those who are not paying for that service.

Some of the ownership and we're seeing in Kenosha right now are frustrated that those properties of theirs that they're trying to rent are showing up on that website.

And by the way that website appears as though it's the Kenosha City of Kenosha website you would never know it has anything to do with citywise.

So it it goes back on the municipality and they're frustrated because it's being advertised on that website and they never gave them permission to do so.

And so they a lot of them like ourselves we all use folio building rent manager rent find there are all kinds of different facilities that we use for softwares for managing properties.

Part of the obligation with that is that we pay them a fee then and they propagate those rentals out to all kinds of different websites apartments.com, Trillia, you know, Zillow, you name it, there is no shortage of websites for places for people to find housing um and so when they're confronted with having to pay for another website to post their property to they're questioning that as any good business owner would do.

So I think there's just some some things that need to be worked out as to the viability and some of the the pickups that we're seeing that um before we run with it here I'd like to see us make sure we can fix some of those things in some of the other areas.

Okay.

Well thanks for that I mean my understanding of how the website works is that the property owners are responsible for for letting citywise know which units are available and which ones are not is that where the breakdown's happening for those that probably have a contract with them and pay for it I would agree with that probably makes sense but there's a lot of properties for example in the Kenosha city's website where those owners have not have a contract relationship they're they never agreed to have their properties listed my guess is they're coming from apartments.com and Zillow and all these different websites and being harvested into that website.

And then so if you have a relationship like with apartments.com through at folio if that's the software you're using as soon as you tell a folio we've rented that property now you can take it down they'll go out and pull it all back in from those places.

But if you don't have a contractual obligation with Citywise how do they know to pull it off right and so those are the types of things you're starting to see more and more of it.

Any other questions for our guests right thank you sir.

Anyone else want to speak on this yeah hello my name is Jeremy Schmidt from CityWise.

Appreciate uh Rick's concern address real quick too oh my address um it's 1727 north hundred nineteenth street in Wawatosa Wisconsin um appreciate Rick's concerns um we have been working with a large number of landlords in Kenosha not every landlord uses property management software and some of our property management software integrations are newer uh after we partnered with Milwaukee we were able to add a couple more integrations and because it increased our client base size overall um the vast majority of landlords whether they're paying or not paying uh we're in very frequent communications with as of last week I I showed him a list of 25 people that we reached out to um giving them an update on what kind of traffic they're getting what's going on on the site we don't charge every single landlord on the site right now anybody with under 20 units we're not charging and some of the landlords over 20 units we're not charging as we kind of get the site rolling and try and build more momentum to get landlords signing up over time.

So it's kind of like a trialing process right now and we are in frequent communications with those landlords.

Overall I think it's critical to work with folks like Rick, the landlord association and make sure that everybody's on the same page um but I think what we're doing is trying to represent the renters and I know there are some landlords in Kenosha their actual frustration is that we're showing code enforcement data on that website and that could potentially drive renters away from them.

I don't know if that's exactly what we'll be part of our integration here.

If we do that, you know, we will work closely with the landlord association with the Green Bay team and make sure that that data is up to up to speed.

And, you know, just talk to the attorneys here in Green Bay.

And if the city is unhappy with how things are going with this website, you do have the ability to pull out of the contract as well.

So I think that, you know, the key is partnering on all fronts, partnering with the city, working with the landlord association and finding, you know, solutions and making sure everybody's getting what they want out of this because our goal is to build a much larger database, help a larger group of people throughout the city on both the low income side, the high income side, the middle income side.

There's just a lot of properties that you're not going to find on a lot of websites.

You know, he had mentioned Trulia, Zillow, Apartments.com, all of those websites.

There's a very large number of properties that are not on those sites.

And some of those properties we have on our site, some of them we don't.

We're working all the time.

Um, but the key is kind of you know, working together in the partnership.

So that's just kind of my perspective on it.

Thank you, sir.

Just um, just to kind of follow up on what's something that um that Rick had mentioned or kind of suggested is that some landlords are appearing on Citywise without their knowledge or without a contractual agreement.

Can you speak to that?

So we do have some folks that are on without a contractual agreement as part of a trialing process, but we are in touch with them.

It's possible to talk to somebody who didn't realize that we had talked to their marketing team or something along those lines.

Um but we've got to be able to do that.

So nobody's being on your website without some.

We're giving them some sort of communication to that.

It doesn't always go up to the top or whoever necessarily, uh, but we're working with somebody at the property to make sure that, hey, is this the right info?

We want to send you this traffic.

All right, thank you.

I think Alder Johnson had a question.

Yeah.

Um, thank you for being here.

What if this were approved, what would be your implementation timeline?

Um, our we can move pretty quick with this, but I think the key is that, you know, so we would work with the city to, you know, put some kind of uh notification out there.

Um, and you know, if the city, when we when we work out this agreement, we could say, hey, let's not trial anybody, let's only get customers that are, you know, um, you know, we're talking to everybody up and down the organization.

Um, we think that you know, we can get people involved over the first three to four months, uh, a large portion of the landlord market.

Um, but in the first month, uh, we've generally been able to get, you know, a decent number of properties on right away just to start helping people in this current rent cycle.

And then when you were seeing um some of these properties, uh, the example was given that might have been rented and uh have been for several months.

Uh from your perspective, some of these other communities you're working, is that happening within your website or exclusively with some of the third parties where you're pushing that out?

That's a good question.

We do have some integrations that are newer.

So it's possible we had folks that had the integrations and they were not fully set up, you know, three, four months ago.

Um, like I said, after we started working with Milwaukee, we were able to kind of amplify our integrations with some of the software is out there.

Um so we don't think that will be a significant problem going forward.

Um, and that's something that we can make sure that we're kind of uh setting very strict limits on with the city where we're saying, hey, every week we're reviewing every single property.

Okay.

And it's not to dismiss it in a way that says I'm not as concerned about what apartments.com or any other competitor might say.

Um, but if uh a website is branded or presented in such a way that it is a partnership with the city, then it clearly has a direct reflection on us.

Absolutely that platform definitely.

Um I'd want to see that resolved.

And I'm just wondering if, you know, there's any mechanism you have in place because when you allow someone to post for free, for example, there's very little incentive then for them to maintain that record afterwards.

So I'm wondering if there's if you've ever contemplated like a deposit model or something or a recurring fee model, yeah.

That is just that little bit of nudge or trigger to let people know that hey, you're still getting charged for something.

I think that's a great idea.

And I think if you talk to Mayor Bagdala, for example, in Kenosha, they've seen this as a big win.

Um, there's many properties in Kenosha that have gotten more traffic their way than some of the other properties with more code enforcement violations, for example.

So, you know, I think from their side, what they're hearing from landlords, what they're hearing from the community has generally been pretty positive.

Um, you know, we talked to them last week and they haven't heard you know any negative feedback on, hey, I'm reaching out, nobody's getting back to me and you know, the information's out of date.

Um, I think generally it's been a positive experience.

Okay.

And then just one final thing.

It's um if council were to approve this tonight um or reapprove, I guess.

Um would you be willing to commit you know, before the full implementation, three, four months you'd mentioned.

Um, would you be willing to commit to work with some of our partners, including Mr.

Vanderleas here?

And I think the first step is working with the landlord association.

Yeah.

I think that's step number one is working with them and making sure that you know, we're on the same page on everything and that you know, we're working as a team to try and tackle this, you know, just talking with them a little bit earlier tonight.

Uh he's somebody really understands what's going on here from people who are owning a couple duplexes up to people who have you know the super large buildings, and I think it's critical to work with them, just like it's critical to work with the city and hear feedback from the renters as well.

Okay.

The reason I want to clarity on that is because I mean we could certainly send it back to committee, but my fear is I mean, at the committee level, we're not the day-to-day management of programs like this, so I don't know that we're gonna be incredibly useful there.

But if I know that we've got your commitment to work through those bugs, then I would say you know, the fail safe is I think if the landlord station goes back to the city and says they won't talk to us, they won't have a conversation with us.

I don't think you guys are gonna be very happy with us.

Um, and the way that we built this is so that the city has a lot of ability to help guide this in the right way without you know having to be involved in a daily daily basis.

Okay, thank you.

Thanks.

Uh was it Alder Morgan who was trying to chime in online?

Yeah, uh this is Dominic Ansela on the CEO of Citywise.

I I was trying to chime in if if I could.

Yeah, go ahead, sir.

Just take sure.

Okay, great.

Uh Dominic Anslow and 541, East Erie, Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

Um Jeremy did a very good job um explaining that.

I I just wanted to add a couple more pieces to this.

So uh we already have 10 other Wisconsin municipalities on board doing this, but the biggest point I wanted to mention is we have for the last 13 years, uh been doing this with most universities around the country, including every UW system school, including UW Green Bay with our uh previous company, College Pads.

We had over 10,000 management companies on across the country, and we were very, very experienced in keeping our data completely up to date uh at all times.

Uh that was our arrangement with universities that we would do that, and and we did, you know, that it's never perfect, I would say, but um again, we use property management software that landlords use to keep the platforms up to date.

We have a data team uh that they can reach out to at any time and we will have the properties updated within 24 hours, or they have an admin panel where they can edit their properties at any time as well.

So in 13 years of doing this, we have not had complaints about data being up to date, uh, nor have we had any complaints of Kenosha.

No one has reached out to us, including the mayor's team or any landlord in Kenosha.

No one has told us they were upset about properties not being accurate.

I do think we can take a different stance in Green Bay.

We don't have to offer any trialing to landlords.

We just thought that would be a good thing to do to kind of get landlords in the mix.

Um, but we we certainly do not have to do that in Green Bay.

So meaning we can just wait till every landlord one by one kind of joins on.

But ultimately, you know, the the people we're really serving with this service are the renters.

And I think uh the landlords, you know, I think have a large benefit from this as well.

But the main people we are benefiting are the renters.

And I think that's a little bit of the conflict that we're talking about here now, is that renters need this because if you go to uh apartments.com or Zillow, uh that Rick mentioned, you're only gonna see the properties that can really afford to advertise.

Um, and that's that's what we're trying to solve is that the smaller buildings and the affordable housing units will have a place to get exposure for their rentals.

If we don't do this as a city, those middle income families and lower income families don't have a lot of places to turn to find housing.

They have to go to apartments.com or Zillow and they have large listing fees um that prevent them from doing that.

And so that's the issue we're trying to solve.

I think Rick mentioned to Jeremy, um, you know, the code enforcement piece was a big concern because that would police the landlords a little further.

That is not something we're launching out uh immediately with Green Bay.

Uh so that's I think um hopefully we'll get rid of that concern.

But yeah, in closing, we you know, we've been doing this for a long time.

It's certainly uh a key aspect to keep properties up to date.

I don't I think I I don't see a scenario where what we would do would look poorly on the city in that regard, and and we certainly you know take that very seriously.

And and yes, we will uh I will personally work with Rick on any concerns they have, and I'm very confident we can resolve those concerns.

Okay, great.

Thanks for your testimony.

Um additional questions or comments from council for our guests.

Yeah, I'll degrade.

Thank you.

I guess to whoever can answer this.

Do you offer routine feedback or updates to the municipality of you know, these are the things we've heard?

These are the updates we've made, or kind of just I know how often.

Yeah, so basically quarterly with Kenosha, for example, we've given updates.

Um we have our one review call with them in September.

Um, so roughly quarterly.

It just depends on you know the nature of the relationship and you know how how how much everybody wants it.

Okay, all right, thank you.

Anyone else?

All right.

Thanks again for testing.

Thank you so much.

Anyone else who'd like to speak while the floor is open?

Alder Johnson makes motion to close the floor.

Second by Alder Act, all in favor say aye.

The eyes have it, floor is closed.

Um, yeah, motion to approve maybe alder profit, second by elder Delee.

Uh on that motion.

Any comments?

Yeah, just a brief comment.

I think if this was at a cost to the city, this it would be a much different conversation, but um very comfortable moving forward.

Solder who else, I'll direct and hinkfus.

Thank you, Mayor.

Um, so I you know, uh obviously uh everybody was given one of these flyers from from Rick about the apartment association of Northeast Wisconsin.

Um I just want to keep in mind they are a great resource when we're talking about housing.

And I feel like they've been kind of kept out of the conversation a few times.

Um, you know, they've been here before to say that.

And so I would like if our staff would keep in mind um, you know, having that conversation or bringing them into it as a stakeholder.

Uh it it it just it makes sense to me.

And um I do, but I do have a question for staff.

Is um is there like a a rush on it, uh like a timeline for this to happen.

Is that for director Rainier Wig?

Say Director Grenier Wig, yes.

Okay, go ahead.

I don't believe there's a rush on this.

I mean, it'd be great to get it started.

You know, sooner the better for the the tenants, but there's no we don't have any timeline that's been established.

Yeah, thank you.

And I I would echo that.

I mean, but at the same time, you had a family member who was looking for an apartment within the last couple weeks, and it it's not easy um to find available units.

And so I think any additional tools we can offer to people looking for a place, a high quality place to live is definitely something I'm interested in doing.

I think we've heard from the citywise folks that they're really interested in working with us with the apartment association to fine-tune the website, you know, as it's being developed and and once it's developed.

So I'm obviously comfortable moving forward, but um, but appreciate the question.

Thank you.

I I'd like to see it hold held, but um, I know there's already a motion on the floor.

Uh Alder Hipus.

So a lot of the issues that we've been discussing, I mean, you're gonna have somebody that's gonna be working with citywise through the city of Green Bay.

I mean, so there will be a project people that will be working on this, they'll take a look at what we've just discussed, make sure that those issues are part of that plan and let citywise moves forward, correct?

Yeah.

And just to um offer some information, I did talk to two property managers um regarding this smaller property managers, and they're very excited about it.

Um, because they think that this offers more of a smaller venue to put it in, and once people know about it, it will really take off.

So that was their feedback.

Thanks, Holder.

Alder Johnson.

Yeah, I just you know, if we were talking about a product, I think that was uh on the same level as some of these other larger outfits.

I might feel a little bit differently about the timing of it, but I think that this really targets a niche that does get overlooked.

And as a former uh renter and a former landlord, uh I can appreciate the importance of a product like this and the value that it'll bring.

And I have a lot of trust and confidence.

I the only thing I had I made the motion, the only thing I would have added on, but I think Director Rainier Wiggle take it to heart is just to direct staff to continue to work with uh department association and and citywise and any other interested parties uh to really kind of work out those bugs.

And that was partly why I asked about the timeline, because I think if you know, we've got the next few months to kind of work some of those out before you see a mass unrolling.

I think we'll be in good shape.

And just because something doesn't cost money, though, I don't want to uh assume that it's a good thing because I do think the city's reputation, you know, is a a partners is important.

So I'm really hopeful that those those bugs can be worked out beforehand and we get some good feedback to make the product even better.

Any other older grant?

So just for clarification, is that part of is that fully being written in?

Because I do want to echo the fact that you know, we've been at this discussion before about housing, and we've asked for you know, Rick and his organization to be tied in, like the housing task force, and we've kind of heard cricket.

So I want to kind of have this and writing in part of the vote that they will be involved in this.

Otherwise, I'm in agreement to hold until the next council meeting, let the two parties talk and come to us and present to us the concerns and how they're addressing them more than three minutes that they were allowed to speak.

Um, or unless you can assure me that they will be involved, then I'm okay approving this.

So I just want clarification as that going, is that part of the amendment?

Yeah, I mean, I think you heard the assurances from the citywise team, you know, who's actually developing the website that they're gonna be working with the apartment association, but I'm certainly happy to to work with them from my office's perspective.

I know Director Runier Weg is uh is obviously interested in doing the same.

So but whatever council's comfortable with, obviously.

Okay.

I just as like I said, as long as that is fully everybody's in agreement, they will be tied in, then I'm okay then.

Okay, thank you.

Yeah, Alder Eck.

Thank you, Mayor.

Um, so uh just so I understand it, I want to just clarify because you had said you know that somebody that had a hard time finding it.

Um is the difference here that it's um like for Zillow Apartments.com.

Um, that those are the larger um places, so they have to pay, whereas the smaller ones are just not advertising on there.

Right.

Yeah.

And uh, you know, I think others probably have more expertise in this area, but there are significant fees associated with some of those larger websites.

And so if you're a smaller property owner that only has a handful of units, you're not you're not capable of coming up with the the funds that are necessary to post on that, um, have your properties posted on a website like that.

And so this I think gets to near universal listing within a community, probably not 100%, but I think we heard estimates north of 90% in in some communities.

So that's not something you're witnessing on any other website right now that's available to people.

So I think that's the biggest benefit.

Okay, thank you for clarifying.

Yeah, I'll just add as somebody who is a renter.

Um, there is a huge need for this right now.

When I was looking for properties uh in Green Bay, I remember I looked at apartments.com.

And if you look at like my neighborhood that I live in now, there are five different apartments listed.

That's not representative of how many actual smaller uh units are uh available in that area.

Um, and then the smaller units uh you can find them by either walking around or going to Craigslist.

Um, and Craigslist doesn't have the same sort of features uh that citywise would have in terms of being able to look at the history of this apartment um in terms of code enforcement and having contact information, all of that um readily available.

So I think it's it fills a need.

I don't see any reason to delay it.

Um any other comments?

Seeing none, we have a motion and a second.

All in favor will say aye.

Oppose nay.

The eyes have it, and that item uh is adopted.

Um would appreciate um testimony by everybody offered here tonight.

And with that, we are on to where are we?

Because that was coming back to the file on two three.

We've approved that no.

Finance maybe did not approve finance yet.

Okay, so we're on to the finance committee.

Motion to approve maybe by Elder Johnson.

Second by Elder Delee.

Um, any items in addition to two to be handled separately.

See none, all in favor will say aye.

Oppose nay.

The eyes have it.

That report has been approved.

Park committee.

Motion to approve made by Elder Delee.

So seconded by Elder Ritterbush.

Um items here to be handled separately.

Any others?

Hearing none others, all in favor of approving the remainder of that report signify by saying aye.

Oppose nay.

Yeah, I have it with the exception of item one, which is here, Albert Johnson.

Motion to move it to published, I guess.

Okay.

Um there'd be the motion to deny the rate.

Umson makes a motion to deny.

Um, that was seconded by Elder Eck.

All right.

Um discussion on that.

Yeah, we we held this item over.

So certainly I know uh there's someone here to speak, but I didn't know if staff had done any additional work on this that council needed to be updated on.

Sure.

Um, either attorney coach art or director Dichite.

Yeah.

Go ahead.

Thank you.

I appreciate the patience and holding this over from last time.

So just a couple of points of clarification.

Recall there was a discussion about both the reimbursement for the uh value of the tree as well as a citation that was issued.

So just as a point of clarification, the reimbursement for the tree is under uh section 2837 in violations with the person found to have um basically removed a tree.

Um, and part of that is the cost of uh the actual calculated value lost of that tree, which was done and invoiced by the parks department.

The citation that was issued by the police department is under section 40-1, uh, which adopts state law, which is uh relates to the intentional uh damage of any physical property.

So again, two separate authorities there, one uh for the removal of the tree, which um I should know just in the point of invoicing tree invoicing for loss of trees, we do so for people who have accidents, car accidents, all those things, that same invoicing process.

And then the secondary uh item I said was a citation issued by the police department due to their investigation and intentionality of the um offense, and the municipal prosecutors here if you have a question, as is the the police department on those.

I do just wanted to note because it's a matter of public record, uh, that I believe in a uh pre-hearing for that citation, the municipal prosecutor did offer to um dismiss the citation if the uh invoice was paid in full.

And I believe that offer still hand stands, but she can clarify that as well if there's some additional discussion.

Thanks, attorney Gochart.

Anything yeah, I don't really have anything to add, but if you have specific questions, I'd be happy to answer.

Make a motion to open the floor, second.

Alder Johnson makes a motion to open the floor, seconded by Alder Galvin.

All in favor will say aye.

Aye, suppose they guys have it, the floor's open.

Attorney Greg Herbert's uh my office at 336 South Jefferson Street.

Uh here representing Baohee, whose uh address is 1105 Longville Court in Oneida, uh, and is the property owner.

Um I just want to point out a couple things that we just heard.

Um, especially one is this ordinance says this or that.

And whether we're taking it from a different place, I think an average person reading that says I'm either gonna get a fine or I'm gonna get that.

And I think that's a reasonable interpretation of that statute.

And I it it seems a little cute to me to say we're gonna fine you under this and then charge you for the tree here because it seems like an end around what the ordinance actually says.

Uh in addition to that, when someone in a car accident or an autobior or something like that hits the tree, the police do an investigation and the landowner is never hit with that fine, that bill is to the person who damaged the tree for the ordinance.

In this case, there was a police investigation, they know who damaged the tree, he admitted it damaged the tree, and we're still hitting the landowner with this charge.

And it just seems like there's a uh a definite imbalance of what we're doing here when if this was a car accident, we this would not get the landowner, but because it's a separate person cut this tree down, then it's the landowner's fault, even though we've got no action by the landowner that did that because she was trying to get a different tree cut down.

Um the I likened it to if there was a stop sign in the right-of-way and a car hit that, we wouldn't be having a session at all.

I would just find the person who hit the stop sign.

Uh, and so to me, what we're doing is changing the rules about how we charge these trees, because it was somebody who cut it down versus some other damage to it.

And it and then of course all the stuff I said last week about I still kind of feel like our the language of the statute doesn't necessarily or the ordinance doesn't allow this to be passed on to the landowner based on the fact that it says the person who damaged or upset the tree.

So uh questions, I think act profit everybody.

Um thank you, Mayor.

Um, yeah, so this would be something uh where she hired the tree company.

I know they weren't licensed, she doesn't have proof of whatever the estimate is, which is a actually normal business practice.

Um, but I guess I uh would say have have has she looked into small claims court to get that reimbursement for the tree?

Because that I would say that would probably be the route to go.

Right now that it yeah, we know that, but it we're still stuck in a situation where there hasn't been she hasn't been assessed this.

Um so we can't go into small claims court at this time.

Um, you know, and and not to oversimplify this, but this feels to me like if I wrote a will for the chief of police and I have this policy in my office.

Well, I don't bill the chief of police, so I bill the fire chief instead.

Because one person got the thing, but the other person's getting the bill.

And again, it it the duality of somebody who hits a tree with their car versus somebody who it has cuts down the tree and we're treating them differently.

To me, is uh it just I can't understand how we can go forward like that.

Well, it to me that's it's not really um an apples to apples comparison because when you you know with the tree, there's that insurance there.

Um so I don't see it quite the way you do.

Well it to me that's it it's not really um an apples to apples comparison because when you you know with the tree there's that insurance there um so I don't see it quite the way you do there's also insurance from the uh tree tripper right and and maybe filing you know against the tr the um insurance the homeowner's insurance but uh either way we're the the cities without a tree and the homeowner um is responsible for that and so I have no more questions thank you thank you maybe a a question is kind of a question about an analogy or analogous situation like if uh if a homeowner were to expand their driveway inappropriately director renew can you explain like who gets cited for that yeah if there's a complaint made somebody does an illegal expansion of a driveway and it's deemed that they hired a contractor to do that and that driveway would need to be removed it would be on the homeowner to have to remove that section of driveway that was done illegally then I would think the homeowner would go after the contractor okay thank you if it was done improperly yeah alder delay and then alder profit yeah I I'm not following you on the um the hitting the tree thing and I don't think it's a good analogy to use with it because I I think there's a difference between accident and service um in the situation of an accident the person that caused the accidents at fault you know a car running into a tree that's someone else's car on your property but when you're a homeowner and you hire a person to provide a service for your house so we step away from the tree and we say we hire a person to do snow removal at our house the snow removal doesn't get done one weekend that you're gone at your house and the city comes and takes care of your sidewalk and bills you they're gonna bill you they're not gonna bill the person that you hired to do the service at your house just like this tree.

I know it's a very unfortunate situation but I I really think it comes down to small claims court on on the homeowner's part to take the tree service to court.

I think I've got two responses to that one is this ordinance is a prohibition from doing something whereas removing snow is a affirmative responsibility that the ordinance sets for the landowner.

So that's why I have a problem with those two things as an analogy um one is a duty of the landowner to do that or this is a prohibition from anybody for touching that tree um and so I I don't see them as completely analogous.

But then um the other thing is that I think that in that situation it it just strikes me as different because you there is a direct contractual relationship to do a certain thing that is that is not the same as a contractual like relationship where they went outside of that contract.

But you're hiring an individual to take care of something at your house so chair mean tree branches at that point you put your you entrusted that individual that you hired right to do that service you you put your faith in them and they they obviously did wrong but at fault comes down to the homeowner on that you know that yeah I'm still struggling with the fact that the ordinance itself specifically states that person who disturbed it is charged and not the and not the homeowner technically the homeowner hired to cut a tree down they hired them to cut a different tree down yes one quick clarification you said of our ordinance says this or that I just want to clarify you're referring to section 28 37 that section yes the 500 per incident or no more okay or the calculated value of the tree.

So I just and maybe this is a question for staff but I'm sure you can answer it as well we don't have the citation we just have the invoice for the cost of the tree how much was the citation $691 dollars thank you alder Hinkus did you have anything else no thing anyone else question the first uh older Johnson.

Thank you mayor um I just wanted to verify I know it's been suggested but your client did hire the contractor yes okay and then was there a contract between the two parties uh not a written contract no okay uh did she did your client verify if the contractor was licensed or insured she verified insurance not the licensing with the not that they were licensed okay um okay thank you yep anything else all right thanks again for your testimony thank you that you have some floor okay yeah yeah motion to close floor maybe all direct second by elder delay all in favor will say aye aye oppose nay the eyes have it the floor is closed uh we have a motion to deny by Alder Johnson on the floor uh on that older Johnson thank you mayor and and I appreciate the conversation around this and I uh I have submitted a communication after the last meeting that will go to parks uh just to revisit if if there is anything in here that that needs revision I do think there's one area I guess where for which I do have a little bit of maybe empathy and that's the you know you will get this or

The ayes have it.

The floor is closed.

Uh we have a motion to deny by Alder Johnson on the floor.

Uh on that, Alder Johnson.

Thank you, Mayor.

And and I appreciate the conversation around this.

And I uh I have submitted a communication after the last meeting that will go to parks uh just to revisit if if there is anything in here that that needs revision.

I do think there's one area, I guess, where for which I do have a little bit of maybe empathy, and that's the you know, you will get this or that.

But recognizing if the municipal court is acknowledged that they would rescind the fee if the tree replacement value is is given.

I think we already kind of meet that that standard.

Maybe the question I would ask, I don't know if this would be maybe a question for the attorney.

Um do we as a municipality have the ability to rescind the citation, or do we have to rely on the court to do that?

Attorney Court chart.

Uh attorney Mays has the authority to do so, and she's the one that made that offer.

Okay.

Um does council have the authority to rescind a citation within a motion.

No, you do not.

Okay.

Uh so then attorney Mays, uh if the tree replacement value is replaced, uh, just looking maybe for a public acknowledgement that you would rescind that citation.

Yeah, during the the last status conference in the municipal court, I made that offer in open court.

I've had that offer on the table for months that if the invoice is satisfied that um the the invoice actually came out of my inquiry into whether there was any restitution owed to the city regarding the damage to the tree.

Um so as I typically do with damage to property citations, if restitution is paid, um I strongly consider outright dismissal of a damage to property citation.

Um that's the offer that I made months ago.

Um that offer is still on the table, and that's currently where things are pending in the municipal court is seeing what council does with this invoice.

If the invoice is paid in full, then I dismiss the damage to property citation.

Okay, thank you, attorney Mays.

And I think this is one of those scenarios where um again, I I had some concerns about replacement value of the trees and just not publishing obviously how that's calculated, and we've been provided since a lot of information on how that's handled.

Uh, we might look at some process improvements, but I don't think it negates what is uh what is adopted by ordinance here.

And uh I think it's a scenario of almost uh a buyer beware and the importance of contracts for services.

Um, and and I do think that um small claims court is likely going to be the best path forward for this particular individual, recognizing that uh I mean they they hired the person, the person removed the tree, so I do support the denial, assuming that the citation would be rescinded.

Thanks, Alder.

Anything else?

Seeing none all in favor will say aye.

Aye oppose nay.

The ayes have it, and that motion has been approved with the denial.

Uh next up is report of the personnel committee.

Motion to approve me by Alder Prophet.

Seconded by Alder Ruderbush.

Any discussion?

Seeing none, all in favor say aye.

Oppose nay.

The eyes have it.

That report has been approved.

Reported.

Yes, Alder Johnson.

I just want to point out to Alder Galvin that that personnel meeting took 53 seconds.

Oh wow.

Maybe a new record.

Report of the traffic bicycle and pedestrian commission.

Motion to approve med by Alder Stevens.

Seconded by Elder Prophet.

Any items to be handled separately here.

None.

All in paper say aye.

Oppose nay.

You guys have it.

That report has been approved.

Sustainability commission.

Motion to approve med by Elder Prophet.

Second by Alder Presley.

Items here to be handled separately.

None.

All in favor say aye.

The ayes have it.

That report has been approved.

Next up is informational item, July municipal court report.

That's in your packet.

Next is resolutions.

Motion to suspend the rules made by Elder Prophet.

Seconded by Elder Hinckfus.

All in favor will say aye.

Oppose nay.

The ayes have it.

So these resolutions will be taken up with one roll call vote.

Motion to adopt by Alder Prophet.

Seconded by Alder Delee.

Any discussion?

Yeah, Alder Johnson.

Uh, if the clerk could note an abstention on Y one, which is directly correlated to Q2.

Uh brown um X.

Sorry, I oh gosh.

That'll be noted.

Yeah, I'm being disruptive here.

Sorry.

That's all right.

Needlessly.

It's all good.

Um so on resolutions, any other discussion?

Otherwise, we'll use the board.

All right, those are adopted unanimously onto ordinances first reading.

There profit.

I'm just gonna throw out there that the attachment in this one is appropriate in signage.

It says two in the areas.

It should say two.

So that's accurate in there.

It is accurate in that section.

Okay.

Thanks, Alder.

So motion to the rules.

Made by Elder Prophet.

Seconded by Elder Delee.

Let's take up these items with unroll call vote.

All in favor will say aye.

Close nay.

You guys have it.

The rules are suspended.

Motion to advance.

Motion to advance made by Elder Presley.

Seconded by all the profit.

Any discussion?

There we go.

We got it.

Um all in favor will say aye.

Okay.

Close name.

The eyes have it.

And those yes.

I apologize.

Just motion to reconsider you three.

I just confirmed with Alder Stevens.

It's noted in the agenda to receive in place on file to add the flashing beacons.

But all the Stevens did motion to refer to INS.

So it's misnoted the agenda.

That's not.

So can I so I can motion to reconsider and then offer an amendment to the verbiage?

Um, just give me a minute.

Just sorry.

Apologize.

I just commented one minute.

So Alder Grant is making a motion to reconsider U three.

And that was seconded by Elder Stevens.

All in favor will say aye.

Close nay.

Motion to amend to refer to INS instead of receiver.

They sent by, but everything else is the same.

Okay.

So Alder Grantless motion to refer this item to INS.

Um seconded by Elder Stevens discussion on that.

Seeing none, all in favor say aye.

The ayes have it, and the item has been referred.

Um, so those ordinances have been advanced to a second final reading.

Now we're on quasi judicial hearing for license non-renewal.

First up is quasi-judicial hearing for non-renewal of 2025-26 massage establishment license at 503 South Military Sunrise Spa on that attorney coach.

Um it's up to you because we just have the two hearings left.

Yeah, director.

It's up to you.

Attorney Coach trying to make some fans among the staff here.

So um, but I agree with her.

Anybody who's not involved with the quasi digital hearing is free to call it an evening.

Um, and then on the item itself.

Yes.

Um, so just um sort of a different um item for you to review here.

This is attorney Randall who represents who a keller.

Uh, we agreed uh prior to the hearing to take up the issue of whether it's an appropriate appeal uh appeal and whether attorney Randall's client has um standing to bring the petition.

So from my perspective, we could take that up now, and then if you decide, we can uh proceed to the hearing.

But from my perspective, um attorney Randall represents Huah Keller, which is an employee of the establishment, and the licensee who is um I believe May Deoung is no longer with the business.

This came this information came to us in the material from um attorney Randall and his client um apparently purchased the business.

But this individual, um the individual who's not here, the owner of record is the license holder, and from my perspective and and from um city ordinance, only the license holder can bring an appeal.

And I just want to um make one additional note on that is that under 1095, which is the massage establishment license itself, um, that no person, I'm sorry, no license can be transferred between locations or person to person.

Um no massage establishment license shall be sold or subject to transfer of corporate assets or change of corporate officers or directors because I make mention of that because the information that we're provided shows that the employee purchased the business.

So from my perspective, um the who a color was Mr.

Uh Randall's um client cannot appropriately bring an appeal to have you grant a massage uh a massage license to her.

Um I do note that we did recommend that they applied for a new massage license, which they did, and I believe the point of contention is that they're operating right now and would like to do so until that uh final disposition of the new massage application, and I think it's appropriate also to give Mr.

Randall an opportunity to respond on that, but we can also take questions.

Okay, thanks, attorney Gochard.

Mr.

Randall, thank you.

That was a very fair uh summary.

I'm attorney Brian Randall of the Amundsen Davis Law Firm 318 South Washington Street here in Green Bay.

Sorry, that wildfire smoke.

Uh indeed, I represent Huak Teller, who is a state licensed massage therapist to the state of Wisconsin.

Huah's uh been at Sunrise Spa for three or four years, a good number of years uh in the packet, and it's a voluminous packet tonight.

I think it's page 514, is where her license is.

Um, I I just appreciate the opportunity.

We're going to give you a timeline here.

And again, uh attorney Kochar was very fair in laying out the issue.

And I just want to explain the informalities that were with the business transaction, what Hua has always been doing and let you make your decision.

So Hua has always had the state license.

It's in your packet.

That's page 514.

And she worked at Sunrise Spa prior to the city licensing these establishments.

In February of 2024, the first license application was submitted by the then owner, Dian Yang May.

Sometimes it's referenced May Dian Yong in Chinese, the first name comes first and last.

So we're probably going to say it interchangeably, but Dian Yang May was the original owner.

That's a male.

He did not have a state of Wisconsin massage therapist license, but he also did not perform any massages in Green Bay.

Hua and her husband Brian Keller then bought the 503 South Military Avenue commercial spaces from James Moore.

I call him the vacuum cleaner guy.

If you're familiar with the site, there's the old vacuum cleaner space on the right and sunrise spa is on the left.

And they bought both of those storefronts from James.

I gave a handout that I believe was distributed to everyone this evening.

That's the page one of the handout.

It's simply the warranty deed showing for that tax key number six on the right-hand side, six-1520A.

That's the tax key for the commercial spaces.

May 2 of 2024.

Brian Keller became the owner from the KJR properties.

And I also note in the packet, we previously submitted the city property records, page 515, 516 also show that Brian Keller is the owner of the space.

That was the most symbolic and overt action the Kellers took in buying the business and buying the space.

They invested in the community.

They are paying the taxes, they own that space.

Within about a month later, is when the business transfer occurred.

And this was a very informal transfer.

I did not represent them at the time.

I would have advised they have a bill of sale or a purchase and sale agreement or an asset purchase agreement.

This was very informal.

It's just sunrise spa on Military Avenue.

There was no documentation.

Essentially, May Diane Yong said, I'm not coming in anymore.

It's your business.

It's it's Huaz.

She always had been the licensed massage therapist, and he no longer was involved from about June of 2024.

That brings us to Hua running the business, paying all the bills, paying the electric bill, paying rent, or if you will, they bought the building so they don't have those business expenses.

On page 531 is the certificate of insurance.

So showing that she's paying for the professional uh code requirement, limits of liability insurance for sunrise spa.

And all of the documents that are necessary.

I was at that last hearing, so I know you talked to a lot of the licensees about what documents they have posted, the ordinance compliance.

So page 532 shows you that at Sunrise Spa, we have the city license, the insurance certificate, and Hua's license all posted.

In the 2025 renewal, it was resubmitted under May Dian Yang's name again.

The simple reason for that is because in Hua's mind, nothing had changed.

The business she was still running it, she was the state licensed uh massage therapist.

And in the interest of just keeping the paperwork the same, or maybe more specifically, not having the knowledge or the attention to detail, just re-renewed the license and reapplied.

But she still is the only state licensed massage therapist.

That was included in those materials.

And again, had I been involved, and in retrospect, that's when for certain the documentation of a change should have been made.

I believe staff, and I said this last time, your staff is very good, and they do they do uh advise people properly and they're responsive.

They probably would have said, Ms.

Keller, you need to submit a new license, just like we had that dialogue.

But that didn't happen.

And they went through the full renewal process.

And then when Hua and Brian Keller saw the notice documentation from the police department with some of the allegations, they immediately decided they had to take it seriously and hire legal counsel to help and work through these issues.

And that's when I became involved earlier in um June.

So since then, we filed all the required paperwork in the form of that new license application.

My understanding that is if we're not renewed this evening, and as attorney Kojart said, this is really about continuing to provide services to the customers and not having a gap or a lapse in the license as a renewal that's pending.

We can still operate.

And she has been operating the business.

So we were trying to keep the business going and still allow those operations with the existing license until the council makes a decision on the renewal.

If not, then I believe we'd be on a licenses committee, or I'm sorry if I don't have the your name of that committee correct, but that would meet next week.

Um might be the only item on the agenda, summertime meeting.

But the reality is we would proceed with that new license.

It'd be Hawaii Keller based on all the same information, the same certificate of insurance, the same address, and all the information that's in front of you, with the exception of any of the allegations, and we can speak to those this evening.

But what I propose to attorney co-chart is we kind of bifurcate this.

Like let's talk about the standing issue, the reason I'm here and the reason Hua Keller and not May Dian Young is not here.

But then also if you give us the chance to respond to those allegations.

I would conclude that in an attorney coach are properly referenced the ordinance.

I would also reference you and maybe Lieutenant Mahoney, who's here, there is a section of the ordinance that it might be appropriate to have a penalty if the council does decide to proceed.

Under your 1095 F1 letter L, it requires a licensee to report any change of fact on their application or in their license to the city clerk within 10 days of such change.

That did not happen here, and it might be within the authority of the city to send a message, even though we're taking ownership of that, but to send a message that under 1095 J, a penalty where a person violates any provision of this section other than the operation operating regulation shall be subject to a forfeiture of not less than 100 nor more than 500.

Um, I think there could be a way that that message could be clearly sent, and the city can reserve its rights to point to other licensees that these types of provisions, while it's in the middle and it's a 10-day rule is kind of buried in there, it is still very important.

And so I would leave you with that.

Um, that there could be a way that that message could be sent and emphasized by the city.

I don't know that the council will defer to your city attorney on who can authorize that.

Um, but I notice that Lieutenant Mahoney has all of his gear tonight, uh, guns and cuffs, and I hope we don't get to the handcuffs part, but maybe writing a citation uh when he's at his desk would be appropriate.

And then again, I'd reserve my opportunity to present on the rest of the allegations, but want to be respectful of the council's time that that may not be necessary.

So I am open to questions as well as I know attorney coach art is.

Thank you, attorney.

Um, any questions for our guests, Mr.

Bush?

I noticed on your uh massage established license, you have the wrong address.

You spelled military wrong on the application or on the license.

I believe it's on the license.

March 24th of 2025 at 925.

I just see the I just noticed there's this typo there on the military.

And that that I think was the original one that we were copying, but I believe the current pending new application, either as we amended into this one, um, and I tried to type it correctly, so I hope it's correct.

Thank you though.

And as the alderman for the district, I know that you would be uh attentive to those things.

Any other questions from council on the standing question, Alderek?

Uh yes, thank you, Mayor.

Um, so just kind of going by the timeline that you gave.

Um the current, shall we say owner, um, has been the owner for over a year.

Correct.

So the license has not been in their name ever.

That's correct.

Although the license that was issued does have her name attached to it because she is the only state of Wisconsin massage therapist.

So her name is in the license application, but you're correct.

I mean, it's still sunrise spa, but the May Dian Yang is not involved.

And I should say if I can just Hawaii is here, she's uh sitting behind me in dressed in all black.

Um, she took a very seriously wanted to be here just so you could put a name and a face together.

But you're correct, it was not properly in her name as a lawyer as looking at ordinances and how you set up this process.

We agree, and that's why I'm suggesting maybe a fine or a citation could be appropriate.

Um, so she's in the license paperwork as the only massage therapist, but it was not issued in her name and she didn't apply on the renewal in her name, just kept it the same.

Right.

And and that, you know, they can be uh one of the licensed therapists, but uh the person who has the um the massage establishment license is not her.

So they if you're talking citations, it would be you know over 365 days of that citation that would add up.

If it were assessed per day, each day of violation, that is correct.

I think that'd be a very very serious um issue, but nonetheless, I think you're correct that could be something to deal with.

Okay.

And um, so uh understanding um in going by our ordinance that it to me, I don't really understand why when um she's already reapplied that we're even here today.

Um, I think that this is not the place for it, considering that we denied the previous owner.

You know, this is a little confusing because of all the different, you know, um, I guess circumstances.

Um, they were denied.

And so then there was the appeal, but it was still not the person who had the license.

So I I just I guess I don't understand why we're here today.

That's true that we did file the appeal, and and I defer to your city attorney on the process.

And so I understand the council may have denied or the police department recommended denial, but then those licensees who didn't want to be denied could file an appeal.

So that's when we filed the appeal.

The last paragraph of our appeal, I did at that time acknowledge that we wanted her information amended into or make sure everything was updated.

We've subsequently then done a completely new, like start with a blank slate, a new application.

Um from our standpoint, it really comes down to between now and August 19th, or if the council doesn't meet until September, it's serving those customers properly or legally with a license, not violating the ordinance beyond that, which we did with the 10-day rule.

But Hua does not want to um serve her customers during this period without the license that she needs on the wall that she knows she needs um without the council action.

So that's why we asked for the renewal.

But if we have to wait to the new license, then the business may have to close and there'll be a gap in that that service.

So that's what this was really all about.

It's the gap period.

Um, and knowing that we had a lot of paperwork and and she is the business operator, and so she is who's what we say before you, but I understand the the issue with the other person's name and and his role, but he's not involved any longer.

Okay.

And the renewal process would have been a lot faster than this process.

The renewal process.

I mean, or I should say original application process would have been faster than going through denying and going through the quasi-judicial hearing.

I think so, or a renewal done properly earlier this year or updated at that time.

We we totally agree with that to the extent we're taking more of your time.

Um, we apologize, but yeah, it would have been faster, many different ways we looked at it when I started looking at it in June.

And and this is why we're here tonight.

Thank you.

Well the prophet.

Um thank you for being here tonight.

Probably a question for our city staff.

Is there a provisional license?

That's offered.

Thank you.

That's clarification I was looking for.

Thank you.

Any other questions for attorney Randall?

Right.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And again, staff is great.

We did ask the provisional, they were looking for that too.

So we tried to find everything.

All right.

I can start my mic's still on.

So um, yeah, I our ordinance is pretty clear.

Section C oh 1095 subsection C, subsection one B.

Um, makes it pretty clear you can't transfer it.

So I think there's only one way forward at this point, and it's to go through the process with a new accurate application, which sounds like it's already been complete.

There's no opportunity for prop provisional.

I just don't think, yeah, that's I think that's the only way forward.

So I would make the motion to deny whatever we have to do here so that we can move forward with the new license.

Okay.

All their property makes a motion to deny, seconded by Alderac.

Any discussion on that?

Seeing none, all in favor say aye.

Opposed nay.

You guys have it, and that appeal has been denied.

Thanks.

Uh next up, quasi-judicial hearing for non-renewal of 2025-26 Class B liquor and class B beer license for stage one, 231 North Broadway.

Attorney Coach.

Thank you.

Uh, for this quasi judicial here, we'll proceed right um right to the hearing.

So the first uh part again, this is I know most of your experience with this.

The first part is on conflicts.

Um, I just have to state it's the goal of the Green Bay Common Council to provide and conduct a hearing that is fair and inform.

Uh I'm sorry, fair fair informed appearance and substance to ensure that this hearing satisfies these goals.

Well, each other uh the common council please confirm the following by saying you've confirmed you do not have a conflict of interest in this matter.

Thank you.

You've not received any communication from any person or party about this matter.

Well, there I just I just need to confirm that uh I have received communication.

Our conversation was exclusively uh focused around process.

And and I know that you and I have had that conversation, Chief Davis, but I do not feel conflicted.

Any others?

All right.

Great.

Um so the procedure will be that each party is gonna have 10 minutes.

There's a there's a request for um additional time, which will be allotted to both.

So 10 minutes for both uh parties.

Um the council will hear from uh staff on this first, which in this uh instance is both the police department represented uh with assistance from attorney mays, um, and then the applicant will have an opportunity to present evidence and testimony.

Um then um the clerk will swear in um all parties other than the attorney or any attorneys of record.

So we can proceed um and then there can be any questions.

There isn't a rebuttal, but any elders can ask any questions of either party staff, etc.

As usual.

Thanks, attorney coach.

Attorney Mays.

All right, thank you.

Uh good evening, council members.

Um we are here on this agenda item to determine whether the uh the liquor license, the class B liquor license, and the class B alcohol license um should be uh either non-renewed or renewed for the stage one bar.

Um I did attach or uh submit a number of attachments to the council packet tonight.

So I'm just going to quickly um go through what's in the packet um in the way of evidence because um council has voted to non-renew.

This is the point where we provide evidence supporting um that uh decision to non-renew.

So the the attachments I believe start on page 517 of the uh agenda packet.

Um the the first document is a copy of the stipulation agreement that was entered into or that was initialed and signed um by the licensee, Mr.

Graziano, on April 4th of 2023 when he initially applied for the combination liquor license.

Um previously council um seemed to have questions about the types of questions, the types of provisions um that are included in the stipulation agreement.

So I attached a copy so that you can see exactly what terms were agreed to, um, what what types of provisions are provided uh in that agreement.

Um the next document on 519 um is a letter um generated by the police department listing a history of all the calls requiring enforcement action.

Um I'd like to note that the bar had six calls resulting in warnings to uh either the bar owner or staff at the bar.

Those are highlighted in yellow.

Uh the bar also had three calls resulting in citations to the owner.

Those are highlighted in red.

Um, so there are a total of 18 calls with enforcement action taken.

Um, some of those were against bar owner and staff, some were against patrons uh at the bar.

Um, as a result of those um calls with enforcement action, there were uh 16 meetings between police, uh the community police officers, the chief of police, um, as well as the um the the liquor license correction meeting that is specified by ordinance um before the city can move forward with any request of non-renewal, uh suspension or revocation.

So uh a total of 17 meetings were had with uh Mr.

Graziano.

Um on page 522 and 523, we start getting into actual um evidence of the violations.

Um so I I attached uh the social media postings um that were that were posted by stage one showing unlimited drink specials.

Uh page 524 um goes into a police report about uh a shots fired case in which uh stage one was not using an ID scanner for the the patrons who are potentially being shot at by not using the ID scanners that did hinder the police investigation um into the the circumstances of that incident.

Um page 530 are photos of the shell casing in the streets and the the bullet hole that that went through the front door of of the stage one uh establishment.

Uh page 531.

There's a report from an incident on August 3rd of 2024.

Um there was an incident in the parking lot in which there were approximately 30 to 40 um people congregated.

Uh there were about 10 to 15 people who were actively fighting, um, one of whom took a swing at a police officer um in um responding.

Uh that incident involved um um uh about a dozen to a dozen and a half police officers responding.

Um page 533.

There's a photo showing um coat the the the curtains um on one side of the establishment were closed.

That's a violation of the stipulation agreement that windows have to be open and unobstructed so that patrol officers can see if the business is operating, if there are patrons in there after bar close, those types of considerations.

But a warning was given as a result of that December 31st, 2024 incident of the curtains being closed.

On 534, there are photos of a fight that happened outside of stage one.

Some of those involved in the fight actually ran across Broadway during a snowstorm into traffic.

So these disturbances aren't only impacting the patrons.

They're impacting neighbors, they're impacting traffic in the area and pedestrian safety.

On page 535, there is the notice from the correction meeting listing the concerns, the types of incidents that the police department had concern about resulting in the correction meeting being called.

So that was our communication to Mr.

Graziano about where our concerns were.

Page 538 is the initial correction plan that was submitted by Mr.

Graziano to be implemented by April 4th.

The next page is on 539.

There was an April 26th incident where the curtains were closed again.

So by this point, I think we had talked to Mr.

Graziano about the curtains at least three, four, maybe five times that those curtains needed to be open.

And here we were a little more than three weeks after the correction meeting.

And here's an easy win, an easy way to show good faith effort towards compliance.

Open the curtains, take them down.

And they were still closed when night patrol went by the bar.

On page 540, there's a supplemental security plan that was submitted by Mr.

Graziano after council voted to non-renew the liquor license.

A lot of the terms there I have concerns with.

They're largely unenforceable.

So terms like limiting the capacity of the crowd or the patron size as the bar sees fit.

We can't do anything with that.

Night patrol can't do anything with that.

Initiating a soft close.

What does that mean?

Are you closing at 10 o'clock?

Are you closing at midnight?

Are you turning the lights on 15 minutes early and shutting the music off?

Do you stop serving early?

Those details just aren't in the correction plan.

So I think just those materials that are in the agenda packet are enough and a sufficient basis to non-renew, uh to not renew this this liquor license.

But just for additional context, um crime prevention at the police department did run some statistics.

Um I was specifically interested in knowing what kind of hours of police manpower were dedicated to stage one, what was the cost to the city, um, and looking at three comparable bars.

Um, and I'm not going to name names because I don't want to throw any shade on anyone.

Um, but looking at three comparable bars.

Um those other bars looking at the total hours that of police services that were dedicated to their bar um over the one-year time span.

Um one bar required 36 hours, another bar required 80 hours, and the third bar required seven hours.

Stage one required 150 hours.

So the the dollar cost, um, those other three bars, um, $2,506, $5,593, $513.

Stage one, $11,603 of police services.

One other statistic that I thought was worth noting was when you're looking at a good faith effort to bring your operations into compliance.

Um, I I asked the crime prevention to look at the percentage of calls that were called in by the staff or the owner of the bars.

Um, so those other three bars that we looked at, um, the percentage of calls that were called in by staff or the owner were 45.9%, 60.6%, and 53.8%.

Stage one, 11%.

So looking at that from a standpoint of being willing to call in when there's an incident rather than having your own security team try to calm things down or to flag down an officer who may be in the area by by stepping outside and looking across the street or down the block.

Um that's concerning.

And especially with the shot fired case that we saw that there were several minutes that went by before police were even called by the bar.

Those minutes are important, preventing people from fleeing the scene and getting on scene right away for safety purposes.

So this non-renewal recommendation does not come lightly.

This isn't a situation calling for another sit-down or another meeting.

I can um safely say that the police department has had more conversations with stage one in the past year than any other bar in Green Bay.

And there are about 170-ish bars in Green Bay.

So with fights, a shots fired call where ID scanners weren't used and easy wins, just like opening or taking down curtains.

Thank you, Attorney Mays.

Any questions from council?

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Um, that uh dollar figure you um brought up uh over what time span was that?

Um I believe the dates that were used were from June 24th to June 24th.

It was it was a year over year count from uh a date in June 2024 to a date June this year.

Okay, perfect.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mayor.

Uh attorney Mays, um, you had mentioned the 17 meetings that had occurred.

Uh what were the nature of those meetings specifically?

Were they proactive meetings or were they like reactive meetings where the meeting was required?

Do you know what I mean?

Yep, yeah.

Uh I I would say there was a bit of both.

Um, some of them were initiated by Mr.

Graziano.

Um, so that does show a good faith effort towards wanting to address um some of the concerns.

Um, but as a result of those meetings, when we have plans of action that are largely puffery, um it kind of counteracts that that good faith effort shown by by asking for a meeting.

Um, we've had a lot of meetings.

Uh the police department has had a lot of meetings with Mr.

Graziano.

Um so sometimes the solution is to talk it out, and sometimes it's to put plans in place and take action.

And I think that there was plenty of the former and maybe not enough of the latter.

Okay, thank you.

And then um the total police hours uh you had mentioned 15.

Um, I'm just trying to maybe break down again if if those hours were uh patrol officers that responded to an incident, or if that included the the meetings that were more proactive in nature.

I I don't think that those included the the meeting times.

Um what was looked at was the the hours spent per call, the officers that were dispatched.

So it was looking at um the the CAD notes, the computer assisted dispatch notes, as far as how many hours, minutes um the total number of officers spent on the call.

So I don't think that that includes the meeting time.

Okay, thank you.

Uh all the gallon.

Thank you, Your Honor.

Um, I'm looking at the uh meetings, in particular number 15.

Uh department required about a video for an incident.

Uh it was explained to the owner he had five days to comply.

He didn't want to comply until he talked to the detective assigned to the call.

Was that video ever provided?

Um, I believe it was.

Um, otherwise, there likely would have been uh uh stipulation agreement violation, either warning or citation that would have been associated with it.

So I do believe that it was provided.

All right.

How long have you been uh prosecuting cases for the city of Green Bay?

Um about seven and a half years.

I started February 19th of 2018.

Have you had any bars prior to this or during that time that uh experienced this amount of calls for service?

Uh one comes to mind.

And what happened to that?

Uh liquor license was revoked.

Right.

And and in that amount of time, um, have you had any that had as many meetings between staff and owner and the police as this one?

None that I'm aware of.

All right.

And in that amount of time, have you ever had another tavern that received six warnings um about various violations?

Um, I I think that there probably have been um bars that have received warnings.

I think that if there are issues, especially with patrons, um the department, the police department tends to defer to issue citations to the people causing the problems.

Um, if there is some sort of oversight or something that the bar could have done in addition, um there could be instances where there are multiple warnings that are given, but um six warnings is is a high number in in a year time span.

All right, and when you talk about the officers' hours um spent at the establishment, so we're talking 150 manos, correct?

Does that include the officers that might be hanging around in the area because of the problems that persist at a certain location, so they're not out anywhere else?

Um again, like I said, that there were there were dispatch notes um that were used to calculate those.

So um, unless there was um a specific request for um an officer to be outside at that particular location, um, that may account for some of those hours.

Um, but those are those are hours or minutes that the officers were spending in response to specific requests, specific calls, specific complaints.

Right.

And and is there like a time frame of night that that this was happening?

Uh I think that's just looking at year-round, uh, any any calls that were to that address.

Well, I guess what I'm asking you, was it like mostly weekends?

Was it uh between like say 10 at night and two in the morning?

I I don't have that information available.

All right, thank you.

Any other questions for attorney?

Thanks for the presentation.

And now stage one and representatives.

Hi, my name is Alexander Graziano, I'm the owner of stage one.

Um my business address or personal um chapter.

Yeah, okay.

Uh business address is 231 North Broadway.

Um, I do have yep, no problem.

Um if you just raise your right hand.

And uh you're going to swear an oath.

So do you affirm that in this um uh hearing that you will give that the testimony and evidence you will provide would be the truth?

Yes, absolutely.

Thank you.

Go ahead.

Uh I do have some copies of our updated security plan.

I don't know if uh if I can kind of go through a little bit of my my spiel beforehanding them out just to prevent people going through them, unless you want them now.

Um I'll wait on that.

But uh the security plan that was put into the agenda packet, uh, that is not the fully finalized complete version.

Excuse me.

Um that is not the version that that I had worked in this last couple weeks to finalize with uh cooperation with the police department.

Um, so that's why I'd like to share that plan with you.

Uh, but just to a couple quick notes.

First of all, thank you all for being here.

I know it's late, so hopefully we can we can get through this and and we've got enough energy to have a little bit of a discussion around it.

Um, because that's all I'm asking for is just a little bit of your time.

Um, and uh and and number one to start with uh the time to hear an apology because I apologize for some of the remarks I may I made last time, how I expressed myself.

Um it could have come across as accusations or passing the blame when in reality it was meant to express something I think we should all acknowledge, which is um like it or not, there are there are emotions and relationships, and the relationship that I was discussing last time was that of my my business's relationship, my relationship, and that with the police department.

Um today, the the next relationship I like to discuss is my relationship with you and the city council members here, um, which hopefully I can I can encourage you guys to see a different side of me and see our willingness to to really change things around with our business.

Um the emotion on my end will obviously come from the very personal nature of business when you put everything you have into a risk into a vision that you have that you want to see come to life.

Um it's not something that that you uh can just easily put your emotion aside, but obviously today we need to stick to the facts, um, which is what I intend to do.

But the specific question that we're here today to ask is if you vote to renew this license, will it be positive for the Broadway district?

Will it be positive for the community of Green Bay, or will it divert police resources from the other districts that you represent?

And could it harm the long-term goals that we have for our city?

What I'm asking for today is time.

Time for the opportunity to prove that stage one or whatever it may become in its next stage, and that I be given the chance to prove to you all and to this community that we care tremendously about being a positive addition here.

Shortly after I purchased the bar, I said to a group of people, if I could do what I wanted to do with stage one without selling a drop of alcohol, I would do that in a heartbeat.

Now I'm hoping today that the council does not make me eat those words in a very public fashion.

But if it does happen that way, the point I'm trying to make is that stage one is not just a bar, and that we will do whatever we can to prove that we want to continue being a part of this community, and that the part that we may have seemed to play or the part that you think we've played, while it may have negative connotations to it, it's not something that will continue, and we're doing everything in our power to show that we've already taken those steps and things have changed, and we're going to continue to do more to change it even further.

Um we're limited in our current stage, we do host a lot of other things besides just being a bar at night.

We host comedy, we host music, we host family events for birthday graduations, all the way to weddings.

Um we've we've always opened our doors to nonprofits, usually asking for nothing in return for the use of our space.

We've hosted breast cancer awareness fundraiser, a sexual assault awareness event, suicide prevention awareness event.

And ultimately, my goal is for you to not see all those things and not understand the very real concerns that were brought up, but I'm asking for awareness.

I'm asking for you to gain in a new a new awareness of what stage one is now, what it hopes to be and who I am and what I can do to see it get there.

Um, the facts I'd like to share is that on April 2nd, I attended what was deemed a correction meeting with the members of the police department.

Even though this meeting had that that feeling of um the meeting you refer back to when you fire someone that you had that meeting, so you're okay.

Um I know that that wasn't the case.

The meeting, the meeting was called to intervene and be there to offer us the support that that we needed.

It was clear that we needed that support.

Um, so in that meeting, there was a number of suggestions, things that were brought up, um, comments about other bars and things that they have done.

Um, those were all things that we took took very seriously, and we developed a plan, which we had 10 days to provide.

Um, we did provide it by the 10th day.

That's at the bottom of that sheet.

You have 10 days to provide this plan.

We did provide it to um, I forget the name of the officer that I provided it to the on on the Friday.

So that was within the 10 days that we had to get that plan in.

Um, but it was it was clear that that was not the final plan.

That was the plan that we're gonna go through and we're gonna look at and then kind of see okay, what what should be in there, what shouldn't be in there, what else would we maybe need.

Uh so after that, uh, there's a couple weeks went by, we had a meeting.

Well, excuse me, the following week, we had a meeting on the 15th.

Uh, four members of the department came to us at stage one um with myself and some members of my team.

We went through the security plan a little bit and they kind of voiced some of the concerns that they had uh just in a general basis.

And essentially the plan, the the first plan that's in there, um, it was clear that that plan was what they said was shooting for the stars.

Like we gave them the stars, they weren't asking for that.

And if they we we were asked to be held to all the things in that plan, there's no way we would have succeeded.

So that to me was good faith of okay, we don't want to see you fail.

So we don't want you to submit this plan.

That's the stars.

So let's tone it back a little bit.

Let's let's take out what doesn't need to be in there and make sure that what matters, what's going to make an impact that that is in there.

So a couple weeks go by, the NFL draft and some scheduling context kept us from having another meeting.

So the plan that was submitted was was never the final plan.

It was not a okay.

Here is my final version.

You guys looked it over.

We never got to the point of having that final plan that came from the I guess what is considered like the abatement meeting or or um correction meeting.

We never had that final plan submitted prior to when the recommendation was made to non-renew our license.

So I have copies of that plan.

Um, members of the police department that are here today, I believe all at least the ones that are here today, they've all seen the plan um in its final state.

Um, but I'd like for you all to see it today as well.

And I I'm hoping that if there's a discussion that can open up around the security plan and and how we've already implemented some of these things and how they've made they've made serious changes.

Um being our our responsiveness.

So I understand it was brought up that we did not call, uh, it was 11% of the time that that the owner or staff were calling.

Well, in the past three months since that was brought up, I would bet that that percentage will have changed.

And I would also believe that our numbers will have gone down because we have cracked down on a lot of other issues that were brought to our attention by the police department.

So, really today, all I'm asking for is that time to see this plan through.

I'd really like to put these things into action.

I'd like to continue working with the police department.

Um, and if anyone in uh here in city council or any other resources come my way that are that are suggestions as far as how we can clean up the image that that is that is portraying us, and then how we can really continue to be or be a better addition to the to the community that we are in.

So with that, I'm gonna yield my time and pass out this plan.

That's okay.

That's good.

Thank you, sir.

Anyone want to get in the queue?

Alder Galvin first.

Thank you.

All right, Alder Galvin.

Uh Mr.

Graziano, um it's gonna take us a while to go through your your plan here.

Um and uh I'd like to ask you some questions first.

Have you ever worked at a bar before opening this one in April of 23?

Yes.

Did you own it?

Work at it.

I did not own it, no.

And and where did you work at bar?

I mean, how many bars have you worked at, or for how many years have you worked at bars?

Was it a full-time occupation?

Uh I've worked in bars and restaurants on and off for 10 years.

Uh, most of them were food serving establishments.

Um, the only non-food serving establishment that I worked in was uh badger stabbery.

All right.

And you you started this this business April of 23.

Correct.

And we're we're here two years later.

And the uh police department is recommending a non-renewal on your license because of all the incidents.

You've had 15 meetings with officers during that time frame.

Several violations which you uh were charged with, and and looks like uh judgment was passed.

Uh six warnings.

Um I'm looking at the amount of hours that the the city attorney gave us that was spent at your establishment.

Um and yet you want another chance.

You want us to the trust that this is all gonna stop.

Um, I guess my concern is do you looking at this security protocol?

Uh stage one commits the uh the four following additions or business.

All customers who entered establishment have their IDs documented or scanned.

Isn't that in the original plan you signed with uh the PD?

Yes.

Okay.

Uh during peak hours.

Um all individuals will be checked by a reasonable physical search with the use of a metal detector one.

Have you priced out what that's gonna cost?

We already own them.

Several of them or two of them, yes.

Two of them.

You're gonna search people's hands bags.

Um weapons will be allowed in.

Uh a soft close will be implemented.

What does that mean exactly?

So 30 minutes prior to bar close time is when we will do our last call.

Uh, we typically we only do shots only at our last call, so people aren't getting too much more in them before they leave.

Um, so we serve for about five to ten more minutes.

Um at that time, we would turn up the lights and turn the music all the way almost all the way off.

Um, it kind of gives people a little bit of time to uh you know, start to slowly filter out, and then 15 minutes prior is when we would have the music all the way off and the lights all the way up.

Um and be encouraging people to start making their way to their vehicles or to their Ubers.

So bar closings at two o'clock in the morning at 1:30, you're gonna start kind of.

Have you ever worked at a bar where they've done that before?

No, I have not.

You haven't.

Well, we've done it at our bar, but I've never worked at another bar where they do that.

No, have you ever seen it in the other bars prior to you opening up your bar?

Uh no, I can't say I have.

Okay.

Um stage one has adapted several other business practices to help mitigate the issues.

Four additional cameras will be installed.

Facial coverings will not be permitted.

Uh again, you're on to the purses being checked by the manager on duty.

Um, the ban list will be shared with the department upon any updates.

Are you capable of updating your ID scanner so that they would reject those IDs right away?

Meaning what rejecting the IDs we banned?

Yes.

Yep.

So your scanner can be set up to recognize those.

Yes, of course.

And then you would call the police to come issue no trespassing orders.

Yes.

What are you going to do if the police can't get there in time?

Then we would, you know, escort the individual out.

If we're waiting for them to assist with someone, we would have to escort that individual out of the establishment.

And if need be, if they were causing an issue or disturbance, then yeah, our security would have to, you know, stay present with that person until the police came.

Um over that two years, is there any reason why you didn't implement this before?

I mean, to me, we have 170 licensed bars.

And obviously, by the amount of people that want a liquor license, and the ones that are even willing to pay the the extra ten thousand dollars for you know those those extra bar licenses, and yet yours the one that for the last two years has been commanding most of the police's uh attention, and that over that period of time you wait two years to come up with this.

I mean, that what was there any thought with all those meetings with the police?

Did they not encourage you to to follow your original plan, keep the curtains open, use the the ID scanner, all that kind of stuff?

Um at times we did have those plans in place.

We often implemented them when we did shows or or large events where we knew we were going to be busy.

Um, so we had implemented a lot of those things, and some of those were just expressly laying them out.

So we'd implemented a lot of those policies just as an establishment standpoint, but did not share that information with the police department because it wasn't asked for until we had our corrections meeting when it was determined, hey, we would like to know specifically on paper what you're gonna do to mitigate these problems, and ideally, in a sense, so that there can be something that we hold hold them to, hold us to, and yet the problems persisted.

Uh in what time frame?

I mean, right up until um take a look here.

Well, four 17 of 25.

You believe that police officers are messing with your camera system due to a camera glitch.

Um see.

Alex was informed the final decision about their curtains on 321.

I mean, um you just see a lot of stuff that's just repeat stuff, repeat issues, and and again, I'm I'm concerned it took you two years to get to this point.

Um in my opinion, the police department has bent over backwards to help you make this business successful over the last two years.

Six warnings.

I mean, I think that's that's a lot of warnings.

You receive very few violations, you know, citations.

It seems like they were trying to work with you, trying to understand the fact that you can't control all the problems in there.

Uh, have you sent any of your staff to uh NWTC for the the bartending class?

Uh no, not NWTC.

Okay.

I mean, um, I just I mean, you sound very sincere here.

You sound like you want to be successful, but at the same time, over two years, uh, I'm having a hard time buying that that's that's gonna happen if if we if we find some way of uh ignoring what the police department is asking for.

Thank you.

I understand.

Am I able to speak on it?

Or sorry, go ahead.

You can go ahead.

Um, well, I I would would like it to be known that there were discussions around if that recommendation could be changed, that this plan was something that I was not, it wasn't just us as a business standpoint that we felt comfortable with going forward with this plan and putting it into action and and allowing it time to see if it works.

Um I I would I know from a procedure standpoint, the recommendation to non-renew was not something that could be changed, but there were discussions around the the confidence in this plan and in the conversations that ensued since the corrections meeting.

So I understand you're looking at two years of time.

Um we didn't have all the same problems we had in the second year as we did in the first year.

So as we go and more problems came up, yes, we had more meetings.

Um, and then sometimes when you think a problem is gone, it comes back up in a different way, and it's it's added to the security plan in a different in a different manner.

So um, after two years, I would just hope that even if it was on a provisional basis that we could show that we're really determined to look.

Stage one was an idea about being the first stage.

So the first stage in a long plan, uh, being a stage for people to perform the first stage they get on.

Um if stage one has to enter into its next stage, I would be comfortable seeing it transition into something that wasn't just a bar because that's it's not what I'm trying to portray as as what we are.

I know what what the calls are for, I know what you've seen in two years, but even if we got to a point where you said you got to close way earlier, you can't do the late night partying on the weekend.

We would find a way to adapt and and transition our business.

I put everything I had to get there.

I don't have a lot to keep kind of growing it the way that I'd like to.

So being uh, I guess not forced, but like my my number one source of revenue is is alcohol.

I wish it could be food.

I wish it could be merchandise, I wish it should be concert tickets.

So if we can start to pursue those other avenues slowly so that there's less of a focus on people just coming and wanting to have drinks, and inevitably when that happens, people start to cause problems.

That doesn't matter who you are, you have too much drink, you're gonna do something wrong at some point.

Um, we want to mitigate that.

So I understand your concern that in two years we haven't shown the progress.

But I'm if this is the last chance, whether it's the second or the third or the fourth or the fifth, if there is one last chance, that's what I'm asking for, is to show that we are taking these steps to mitigate the problems that that have been brought to our attention, but we're also just asking for the little bit of time to enter into like a new transition phase for our business so we can focus on what it was that we wanted to achieve, which again was not to just be a ball.

So thank you.

I'll profit I have a few questions, so please bear with me.

Um, first one curtains.

Could you talk us through you know why they were still up a couple times after a few different conversations with PD?

Uh yeah.

So I believe that yeah, the corrections meeting, I think was the first time that we were given kind of a definitive answer on it.

So if there were warnings that came prior to that, um the warnings not not necessarily shouldn't have been given, but there was clearly miscommunication between you know what the liquor license stipulation agreement laid out, but then what officers were saying yes, but this this constitutes as enough visibility into the establishment that we're willing to let you have your curtains cracked open instead of all the way open.

So there was direct conversation saying this is acceptable, what you're doing, and then it started to come later that well, no, the curtains are closed, and in the stipulation agreement, it says they must be all the way open, no coverings at all.

Um the very last one I think that came was during draft week, and we'd been as diligent as we could to have them up every day.

Um, whoever was working that day either forgot to forgot to put them up that day or they had fallen.

I think this is what they was mentioned to me.

But it's it's obviously on me to not have check or to not know that those the curtains were down, but uh the times when they were down, there was never anything in that side.

So anytime that there were people in that room, we always made sure that there was visibility because of that uh feedback that came from the police department probably two years ago now.

That was one of the first things that we started to correct uh because those curtains were always there uh previously before my business was there.

So um, like I said, there was at least one or two warnings that came from those that I think are a little bit of a misconception because we were being told by someone in the department, hey, what you're doing is is okay, even though it says, hey, we need to be able to see.

Well, they could see, in fact.

So um, but the last one, yes, the the curtains were down, and it was at that time that very night that we just we took them down, so we don't have curtains on that side anymore.

And is there like a rationale from a design standpoint into the interior as to why you wouldn't just like remove them entirely, like why the curtain rod isn't down and they're just never even an option?

Like, is there something in that like why are they there?

Well, it's kind of a silly question, but well if they're I think for I guess for private events, it's nice to be able to have that privacy for people, you know, like weddings, particularly.

We had a wedding, so it's like people just walking by behind you while you're getting married, it's a little uncomfortable.

So I think having that option of privacy was definitely desirable.

We had host of baby showers, bridal showers during the middle of the day, and I think people having those private events wanted that privacy.

Understood.

Thank you.

Um, my second question, um, on any given shift, but I guess with an emphasis on like weekend hours, how many security personnel do you have on staff?

Like at on site.

At least two and a manager on duty.

Two and a manager on like busy nights, so Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday.

Okay.

Um, the soft clothes that you mentioned.

Um, so I have also worked as a bartender and downtown in the one of the places I worked at, we did do that, and it was extremely successful.

I'm just wondering, talked about the last three months.

You think the call volume um is different?

Have you implemented that yet?

Have you tried out the soft clothes?

And has it I would say not to like the exact time of of that, but um we have implemented a soft clothes.

Yeah, I think we've been doing it for over a year now, but I think having it be as consistent as we're gonna have it be going forward, I think that will help a lot.

Um, but I definitely do think that that adds to you know that that definitely helps people even leaving slowly, not in big groups, so that there's not a lot of people outside at one point.

Okay.

So yeah, we've seen it work, and I think we'll see it work uh more effectively as we stick to it on a consistent basis.

Okay, and then if I have questions for staff, that's for a different period, right?

Thank you.

Well, um, other questions?

Yeah, Elder Johnson.

Thank you, Mayor.

Um when okay, so the the police department, excuse me, the the city attorney had mentioned the percentage of calls that were initiated by you uh comparatively speaking to others.

Um I just want to give you an opportunity maybe to comment on that in particular, um, why you thought that percentage was was lower or why uh at least in the incident of the shooting, why there was the delay.

Um I would say in the incident of the shooting, so speak directly to that as anyone in their first experience something with something like that.

There was um too long of a delay of shock that that led to just not believing what had what had just happened.

Um there's no excuse for that.

And that was very clear in my conversations with um the responding officers.

Um and in regards to other other calls, um this this time around, it's not the first time that we've gone through calls and said, Well, these were us making the calls, and these were you know, customers or neighbors that had made calls.

Um I think since about three months ago, you know, there's a certain degree of discretion that all bar owners apparently have to be comfortable with, but there's really no comfort you can develop with it.

Um, because when you have to call the police to your establishment, you you worry.

There's is there gonna be an issue?

Am I gonna be looked at as the nuisance?

Um is you know, is this gonna come up at whatever?

So there's um in the past three months since being brought to our attention, hey, you're not calling enough.

We've called a lot more.

I think that's clear in the calls.

Um even since then, you have to deal with that double-edged sword of you're telling us to call, you're not gonna fault us for calling when whatever happened was out of our control.

And then shortly after, there was a night that we were issued three citations in one night.

Um, and that was the night we initiated those calls.

So something was out of our control.

We initiated a call, and that led to other citations that night.

Um, despite that the issuing officer made a comment of, well, I drove past and I saw the crowd that was in here and just knew something was gonna go wrong, which makes you really question is like, so we called you here because there's an issue we couldn't control, but you're just assuming that there's gonna be issues here no matter what.

I understand that's proactive.

We appreciate that their presence has been there and it has helped, but that's the that fine line of like call us, we're there for you.

And then when you call, now we got a ding.

So it's hard to make that call.

But I I'm only saying that to say that in the past three months, there has been no exception.

So it's been call right away, call immediately, call even if it's something little, and if it's something so little that you don't need to get the emergency line involved, call the non-emergency line or let me know.

So in the past three months since this has been brought up, I think it's just accepting that you know we we we prefer to mend the relationship with the department than to worry about that line of if we call, we might get a ding.

If we do, we do, but we're gonna be more proactive with with that communication.

Okay.

So when you have problems that do arise, um the documentation we have isn't completely thorough, though we can piece together a little bit from some of the police reports.

Um what do you see a trend in terms of the time when these incidents occur?

Um, yeah, typically towards the end of the bar time.

So closer to bar clothes, I think is when we have majority of issues.

Okay.

And have you ever contemplated uh self selecting, I guess, to to close earlier?

Um we haven't, but we would be open to it.

Okay.

And then you mentioned um that you're not just a bar that obviously you do you do other types of things.

Um have you seen any type of correlation between maybe the the activity that you currently are programming and the incidents that are created where a change in the type of programming might reduce the number of incidents?

I think adding additional or variety of programming would help bring more people and raise expectations for for the people that come there.

So I think if you look at two years, um two years were the the newest, the newest bar, and we tend to have a younger crowd that often moves from the new place to the next new place.

So for us, the two years was that it was people finding out we were there, and it's us finding out that there are people who don't deserve to be there, and and that goes for every establishment.

So for us, the two years was that it was people finding out we were there, and it's us finding out that there are people who don't deserve to be there, and and that goes for every establishment, and then it goes for um bar owners actually getting the courage to develop good relationships with each other and saying, hey, you might want to put this person on your band list and sharing those lists.

It exists in some places in the city, but not all.

So I think those are the things that happen in those two years where it takes time to build those strong relationships with other bar owners, takes time to build the relationship with the not just the department, but then the officers who are responding, so that you know there's times when officers will will show up and when they flip on their lights, well, half the bar leaves because that's an uncomfortable feeling being in bar and the cops are there, uh, because then you think, oh, the bar's doing something wrong or someone's caused an issue.

So it's uncomfortable.

And at times I'm sure it's made whether my staff felt uncomfortable, but if they weren't as inviting or welcoming then to those officers, well, those officers are thinking, well, what the heck?

We were here to try and help.

So it's just all these relationships that take time to build and took time to develop that trust.

Um, and we're just we're just continuing to try and show that we're that we're willing to do whatever it takes to develop it on our side.

Sure.

And and and you know, partly when I reference programming, right?

I'm thinking uh like a concert or a comedy show might sometimes uh just involve more consumption than say uh baby shower, right?

So that's that's that's why I was kind of just contemplating if you've you've looked at other programming, you know, opportunities that maybe wouldn't rely so heavily on on alcohol.

Uh that's partly why I was asking.

So the um and then um, you know, obviously there's a number of the references here about incidents that spill over into whether it's the sidewalk or neighboring properties.

Um just want to give you maybe an opportunity to kind of speak to that, and if you, as part of the security plan would have any ability to address those types of situations, if that were to occur or continue to occur.

Um I would I would not say for sure that we can address things that happen offside of our property solely because I wouldn't want to put my security in a position where they could either get harmed or they could be charged with having harmed someone in defense of themselves.

So I think it's a sticky area that got really evident this past July 4th um at another establishment.

So but would I be open to working with um owners of the neighboring parking lots to come up with solutions?

Yes, um, as long as those solutions are are reasonable for all parties involved.

Um I know a practice that's not continued any longer is being able to pay for the services of the police department.

Um we we we know that we're on the radar of the department at bar closed time because we have a lot of people exiting at one time, so it makes sense.

Uh there's not a lot of businesses open at 2 a.m., the ones that are our bars.

So we're on that radar now, and it's it's helpful, it's very appreciated because when we're getting people out and then they see an officer and it's not like, hey, get out of here.

It's like, hey, get to your car safely, make sure you're getting home safe.

Um that facilitation helps, but we no longer can pay for those services and request that.

But as a district, um, I know businesses can pull together to to pay for, I think this is correct, but pay for a squad car or officers to patrol that area more regularly or at certain times.

Um, that's something that I would certainly be open to doing if if that is something that the police department is able to do.

Um beyond that, I think I would I would really be open to any sort of collaboration I can do to be a better part of the neighborhood because I don't want to cause problems for my neighbors.

And if we have uh then yeah, we would like to have those things brought to our attention and would like the chance to correct them.

Okay, and then just one final question.

The um I didn't see anything in the security protocols, and maybe it's already implied through uh the uh the bartender's license.

Um, but when you have incidents that involve altercations or police calls, um what percentage of those incidents would you say involve uh intoxicated individuals?

Uh I mean it's hard to say, but uh if you're in a bar at night, the majority of the people there are intoxicated.

So um my bartenders maintain sobriety throughout their work shift to make sure that they are consciously aware of who they're serving and and the level of um intoxication that those people exist.

So yeah, and that's kind of what I'm getting at, right?

Is the um like I guess how you're monitoring uh patrons that might have been overserved.

And and of course, when when you sort of make that call to cut somebody off.

Um I would say our bartenders follow like any operators um license course, they follow paying attention to someone's words, how they're standing, how they're speaking, um, and their level of eye contact.

So as people aren't able to, you know, coherently put things together, then we would not serve those people.

We offer waters, and oftentimes, you know, it's unfortunate, but oftentimes people come in and they can have one or two drinks and they seem fine, and then we find six shooters in the garbage in the bathroom, which is why we're cracking down a lot more on purse checks and things like that.

So um, or someone takes something before they go out to the bar and it hits them when they have two or three drinks.

So sometimes we can't always control people's level of intoxication, but it's certainly something that by maintaining sobriety across the whole staff that we're we're really actively trying to pay really close attention to.

Thank you.

Any other questions?

Older grant.

Thank you.

Um, just had a question about the unlimited drinks.

I noticed the first incident happened in mid-March, and then a second one was about three weeks later in April.

Can you kind of explain why those happened?

Um yeah, the the first one, um, it was something that we advertised, and it was uh an oversight on I guess early advertising and and specials that we could or couldn't offer.

So the first one was was entirely our our fault.

Uh the second one, uh truthfully, there was a little bit of miscommunication as far as what the event was that we were hosting, because we were kind of under the impression we were hosting a private event for an organization that supports all sorts of community things.

So we weren't necessarily promoting that hey, we got an open bar for the public for election day, but we were the this the place that was hosting a private entity, a nonprofit organization that was doing this event.

So while our our logo is on it, it was a little bit of an oversight because I've we were under the impression it was a private event and they were inviting people, but obviously it was it was our establishment that they were just paying to utilize.

Um so your bar did not advertise this flyer at all.

No, the second one?

Yep, the election one, the private event.

No, I I do not believe so.

Okay.

Um, and then in your protocols, one of the things that says just during large events, prevent overcrowding, stage one limit capacity as we see fit.

How are you going to come up with what that safe number is?

Um closer to the end.

Sorry, it's the fourth from the last.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I know.

Um, I I would say, you know, technically we have two, technically three spaces.

So we have the the main bar, we have our event space, and we have a patio.

Each space is technically built a 99 capacity wise.

Um typically we have, you know, on any given night, we have the bar and the patio open.

So we typically see our capacity.

If there are people utilizing the patio, we sometimes go over 99 by a little bit.

Um, but typically we never go over that capacity amount.

If we have both sides going, uh, it's this really difficult kind of fine line where um if people are in for an event, there's 99 people in one room, and if then people come into the main bar, let's say 99 people filled in there, we'd be over capacity.

So we know we never get even close to 198.

We get to like 120 or 130 because we know at some point people are going to start to leave, they're gonna leave one room, go to another, they're gonna go outside.

So um, we've just been a lot more conscious on how we mitigate our capacity throughout the throughout the room.

Uh, and then also staff.

So sometimes um sometimes you can anticipate being busy and sometimes you can't.

So if we're not equipped to handle a full bar, then we won't let 99 people into the bar because we don't have the type of staff that we think could safely handle that amount of people.

Um, I can't say if it was something that I could more specifically say and and you know, elaborate on, then I would be happy to, but I I would say it's just something that we're really focusing on because obviously when people are drinking, on top of getting drunk, you get bumped into, you get your shoes stepped on, people start to get aggravated in those crowded spaces.

So really uh minimizing the the chances of those things.

Okay, and that actually leads me to my last question.

You mentioned that you notice instances happen as the night goes on.

Is it typically the amount of people or the amount of alcohol?

Have you noticed a trend or what attributes to those?

Um I mean it's I don't know if I could say there's a specific trend because there can also be nights where people leave other bars and they bar hop and then they end up at the bar, the last bar and they get their last drinks in for the night.

And again, you can some people can get close enough to a bouncer to have an actual conversation, they can look fine, and then they get up to the bar and they have one drink, or they don't even have a drink, and clear they probably shouldn't have even been allowed into our establishment.

So I know that there's times when there are people who aren't even served who are causing fights, but then when it is people that we've served or that have been there throughout the night, um, then I think the number one thing to look at is you know, as they were as they had a couple drinks, did you offer them that water?

Did you slow down serving them because they you know were drinking at a faster pace than than typical?

Um I would say the more people you have in a room, and then the more the later it gets, the more issues that happen.

So that that's certainly the only trend that I could maybe say I point to.

Okay, thank you.

Yep.

Questions.

Thanks for your time and testimony.

Thank you.

All right, we are now to the discussion and deliberation phase of things.

Alder Profit, did you have a question for staff?

I guess I'll go to PD first since it was mentioned a few times.

Uh could you give us a rough um guesstimation of what the last three months have looked like comparatively to the previous two years?

So just doing a quick record search.

Uh, I find two disturbance calls with case numbers associated, one on uh July 12th of this year, a group of females who were attacked outside by two men, and then another one on July 25th, another disturbance where there was a cell phone taken.

I'd I would need to get further into this to get more details about who called and some of those kind of things, but I showed two disturbance calls at that address in July.

Could you give the if you're able the timestamps on those, please?

Looks like the one on the 25th was dispatched at 206 a.m.

Location description 231 North Broadway, stage one.

Second one will take me just a second because this computer is not very quick for me today.

Bear with me.

No problem.

I could go to the clerk and law for my other ones, Claire.

Sure.

Um we're looking at the class B beer and Flickr recommending non-renewal tonight.

Um, I think that leaves only the class C wine eligible as a possibility if there was right, is am I correct?

Um, as like an alternative option if we were to choose to non-renew the two in front of us.

Is there any other?

I think the class C wine would be applicable.

Sure.

So I mean, obviously, all the qualifications to get a class B beer license or class B liquor license also apply to class C wine license.

Okay.

But if you're asking in terms of where are there quotas, there's only quota on a class B liquor.

Right.

So there's uh there's an unlimited amount of class A as well as class B beer and class C wine.

Okay.

And then this one might be for law.

Um, is there a time frame associated if we choose to non-renew?

Are they able that I is it different than the revocation?

Because we didn't choose to revoke it.

We when it was up for renewal, we decided to non-renew.

Are they able to come back and apply in a year?

Or is there some kind of is it 30 days?

Is it six months?

Is there a time frame associated at all?

Give me one second to look at the ordinance.

Maybe that was enough time for teaching.

Yeah, and just like if there's any time frame associated.

Uh, Chief Davis, do you have sure?

Yeah, this other call on the 12th of July was dispatched at 311 a.m.

Thank you.

She has okay.

Uh other questions for staff or comments, motions.

Uh Alda Galvin and Johnson.

Thank you, Your Honor.

Um, you know, you all know what I did for 34 years.

I started when it was legal to drink at 18, and uh thank god they made it 21.

Um, and I ran the community police department and was in charge of the bars.

And I've seen this before.

I've seen what the department has done.

I've been through the quasi judicial hearings, and I'm just I'm I'm not seeing the impact I think it should have had on on the owner.

Um he wants to change things now.

He's gonna change things now.

He's gonna get more staff, he's he's got metal detectors.

Um, you know, he's gonna close early.

But all this comes down to, like he said, his business fails without alcohol.

And every bar that we had in the 34 years I was on an apartment that had large capacity and were struggling to make ends meet, they start bending the rules, they start allowing people in, they start over drinking, they're getting overserved, and it just turns into more and more problems.

They start allowing people in, they start over drinking, they're getting overserved, and it just turns into more and more problems.

My concern here is that I mean, he doesn't have any staff that have been trained how to look in, recognize people that have been overserved, and how to interact with those individuals and get them out of the bar.

So there aren't fights.

The whole idea is this is his responsibility.

He wanted this business.

He wants to be successful at it.

It's his responsibility.

Every individual that walks in that door and he serves alcohol too.

And if they walk out and they start a disturbance and he's saying, Well, you know, I can't really get involved with that.

That's still his responsibility to make sure that they leave his property in good order.

I I'm just very concerned that with the staff he's talking, he's gonna have to have with the amount of work he's gonna have to put into more cameras and all this other stuff.

I don't see how he can be successful.

I I think the fact that it's taken two years for him to get to this point again indicates to me that I don't think he really grasped what needs to be done to run a responsible liquor establishment where he's got people in there consuming alcohol.

And we see the disturbances.

I I'm actually shocked he got six warnings.

I think the city, again, I believe the Green Bay Police Department has bent over backwards to try to help him be successful.

And at the end of two years, it's it hasn't happened.

I'm I'm not gonna support um anything other than what's here right in front of us, which is non-renewal.

Thank you.

Alder Johnson.

Yeah, I just as Chief was had mentioned that incident time 311 a.m., which would obviously be after bar close.

Do we know if that incident originated within there, or was it just reported as the address?

Yeah, the fall was dispatched at uh after 3 a.m., but apparently the incident time was at about 2 30 a.m., according to a statement from one of the victims.

Okay.

And they were leaving stage one bar 231 North Broadway during bar close uh when this incident happened.

Okay.

Uh Chief, was it uh either you or your officers that uh did they work directly with Mr.

Graciano on the creation of this security plan?

I had one meeting with Mr.

Graciano after our last conversation at council.

We uh heard from you all that you would appreciate us trying to work out a solution, and then our community policing team really did the bulk of the work with him to get this um dialed in.

When I had the conversation with him and all that these folks speak for themselves, that was where we brought up the idea of a soft cloth.

I don't think that had ever been in their plan in the past.

Um that is something I have seen.

That's an idea that I've I've worked with in the past.

So that's where that came up, and then, but as far as coming up with the details and then some refinements to the plan, that was Lieutenants Mahoney and heirs and officer lens.

Okay.

And then I I wouldn't ask you to speculate, but uh let me re-reward this.

I mean, if these protocols were followed, uh, I mean, would this generally result in a successfully managed business recognizing that probably not going to eliminate all incidents?

It's how you respond to them, right?

But if this were followed, do you feel that this is a plan that would help mitigate or eliminate the problems that exist there?

I think this is what's in here are definitely steps in the right direction.

I look at just in some what the issues I see here are um we have a problem with disturbances originating from this establishment out into the neighborhood, including parking areas used by patrons.

We have issues.

Uh, it looks like a lot of cases I've seen where we we probably have over-service issues.

Um of these things are help get at those um searches, depending on how well those are done with metal detectors will tend to deter uh some folks from even coming in to the establishment that will cause you problems later.

Um this would be better if it included a clearer plan to prevent over-service.

I think that's probably the biggest flaw that I see here.

Uh I don't know that this plan really, you know, there are some things in here like serving water.

Um that's not bad, but really what you need is clear plans for how your staff are going to recognize that it is time to stop serving one someone alcohol and as opposed to um slowing them down or something like that.

How to recognize when it's time when your staff should not let someone enter the premise at all because they're already in a state where you can't serve them any more alcohol, some things like that.

Um soft close is a really good step.

I have seen that work very well to prevent these kind of closing time disturbance problems that you're seeing in this establishment.

So long-winded answer that the bottom line is I think you know, I think this gets there.

I don't assuming that we ensure that all of these things happen and you know, some other more tailored things to prevent those two big issues.

Okay, and I don't know if this would be a question for you or uh attorney cochar, but um I mean, normally it at least in the past when we've done these quasi judicial hearings, usually it's kind of a yay or nay.

Um I mean, are there motions, amendments uh that that can be made, stipulations?

Question for attorney coaches.

Yeah, I guess whichever one would be better positioned.

I think that's more a law department.

I think you're allowed to that's fine.

I'll give me an opportunity to uh um answer all the profits' question too.

So I think Elder Johnson, um, I guess I would um ask what an amendment would be.

So if there's some recommendation that if you like as an example, if you wanted to grant the appeal to renew their license and you wanted the the stipulation agreement changed in some way, potentially, but usually this is in fact, yes, um, as you said in the first place is either we grant the appeal or we don't.

We can't really conditionalize the license.

Um, so I guess it would be very limited if there's some recommendation about the stipulation agreement itself, which I would then probably um ask the uh license holder if that was acceptable to them.

Otherwise we would um, you know, we don't have any process by which we can confirm that the follow-up if that answers, but does when it comes to a stipulation agreement, does PD have the authority to impose stipulations?

Yeah, so if there is a stipulation agreement in place, the stipulation is adhered to.

Does a stipulation agreement is it required for all license holders?

I believe in uh it's not required, but in this case there is stipulation.

So once we have one, it's supposed to be adhered to is it possible?

I mean, I I've heard at least of license holders being put on probation before.

Is that a thing?

It is not.

We do have provisional licenses, but those are for new applicants.

We don't have conditional.

Yes, I know, I know, but we don't we don't have um the conditional licenses.

It's just not something that's afforded under the uh construct of chapter 125.

We do have suspension, which the chief, um sorry, the clerk was just mentioning, uh, which I know we talked about, but that's a different different process.

So doesn't allow someone to operate during that time.

Okay, so it and I'll tell you what I'm thinking, and then I'll just let you respond if that if there's a path.

Um there's three things, and one that Chief already alluded to, which is sort of adding uh a stipulation around providing training to staff uh around over serving, how to recognize and and how to appropriately react respond when you do have a patron that that's overserved.

And I would think that could be something that's just built into the security protocol.

Um of the things I'd written down was kind of uh, and I don't even know if you could mandate this, but uh I've seen other bars do this where they've stepped up to help clean up perimeters or do a perimeter sweep after closed, you know, so that if their patrons did make a mess in any capacity that uh they sort of took responsibility and were good neighbors um in in cleaning up some of those incidents.

And then the third thing is uh I wanted to understand if there was a path, uh the old saying goes, nothing good happens after midnight.

So wanted to see if there was a path where you could stipulate an earlier closing time for a specified period of time uh until uh you know it was demonstrated that some of the negative behaviors were corrected.

So is that possible to do that in any capacity?

So I guess my the way I reviewed I view that is if it we can require them to do it.

And I think on a couple of the um your first two items, I think definitely no, because I'm trying to think of a provision in 125 or ordinance that requires that.

So again, it would be if this if they um voluntarily would add it to their stipulation agreement, and then that would be what we would enforce.

So if they didn't adhere to it, there would be a violation of a stipulation agreement.

But I don't think we can require those things.

And and um I'm looking at the tenants back there about requiring a closing time, but I think it has to be voluntary added in the stipulation agreement, and then if they don't adhere to it, because um the opening and closing hours for an alcohol establishment like this one are um specified in chapter 125 in state law.

Okay, and just for a point of clarification, the security protocol document that was shared with us, uh, would this essentially become the stipulation agreement replacing what what had previously been approved by PD question?

Yeah, or would a stipulation agreement require more than what's in the security protocol.

I think if we were going to sort of custom tailor a stipulation agreement for stage one to deal with the issues that were that we've seen with them, you know, again, I think there's a lot in here that is good.

I think it needs a little more.

Um I I do think you know, for example, um nothing says that you can't have bar employees outside your establishment encouraging people to get to their cars safely.

Um that doesn't mean that we want them putting themselves in harm's way to intervene in fights or anything like that.

They should probably call us if that happens.

So it would need to see some of those things in there.

Um, but you know, assuming I'll leave the question of whether this is all legally possible or possible under our process to the city attorney, but um, you know, that would be you know, assuming that they agreed to number one, the conditions that are designed to address the issues that we've seen.

And number two, that we're all clear on what happens if those conditions are not met.

Um, you know, that certainly if that's legally possible, that is something I I'm sure we could work with.

Okay.

And then just one final question for you, Chief.

Uh um if uh council agreed to grant the appeal, um, and that these security protocols were implemented along with the handful of other things that we discussed.

Would understanding that it wouldn't change your recommendation, but would you be comfortable as a law enforcement officer?

Um I guess in what that looks like moving forward.

If this were followed.

I think that is a council question as to how much risk you are willing to take to get to your objective.

Um, as your public safety advisor, you know, I I have to say that there's there is a lot of risk here.

Um there's also an opportunity that maybe this works.

I think you improve the odds that this will actually solve the problem by making it very clear what is expected of the owner and what the owner can expect to happen from the city if those conditions are not met.

And you know, obviously we don't want to ask them to waive his due process rights or anything like that.

I think the clearer we can be about those things, and the more understanding we can have from the property owner or from the business owner that it will be the end of your liquor license if you do not abide by all these rules because there is a track record of promising things that for whatever reason just don't end up happening.

Um that sets you up to reduce the risk as much as you're going to in this situation, but there is still I mean it would it would be irresponsible of me not to point out that there is still risk.

Yeah, and I I I appreciate that.

And it's um I want to be clear that I'm not overlooking um the concerns, right?

That are there are definitely legitimate with some of the things that were outlined here, and it's trying to determine and that to your point that it's our role, uh, you know, if if uh there's sincerity in the commitment to to follow the protocols here.

And so maybe sorry, Mayor, just one more question for Tony uh attorney coach art.

Uh you had indicated that if the uh if the license holder um voluntarily agreed to have things put in the stipulation agreement, that that could happen.

How do we have to take action on the appeal before we can have that conversation, or is that something that we can ask them prior to conducting the vote?

So I think um some of the things that you're talking about um divert from a stipulation agreement to perhaps uh correction plan, which is a possibility, and I would refer to attorney Mays to answer the question about um correction plans because she enforces them when it comes to citations, and then I can answer the rest of your question if that's okay.

And then I can answer the rest of your question if that's okay.

Yeah.

So as a result of the correction meeting, um, before we seek um non-renewal, suspension or revocation, um, the the licensee does submit their correction plan and the ordinance uh chapter four does call for um an acknowledgement actually that that correction plan is enforceable for 12 months from the date of the correction meeting.

Um so some of these things, like potentially a bar closed time or something like that, um, they could voluntarily agree to do something like that.

Um, but the the remedy in those situations isn't that if they do this, they lose their license.

We can't put a condition on the license.

The the remedy would be that they get a citation, another citation for a stipulation agreement violation.

Um, so if um it got to the point where um it was appropriate to seek revocation, we would be going through this whole process again.

Yeah, and and that's certainly something you know that I I I definitely understand, right?

There would be a four-to-diew process if the appeal were granted, and and that I think is obviously a very important standard, but also recognizing that the applicants here or the appellant is here today asking for that final chance.

So I don't know that there'd be a lot of patience with anyone if the appeal were granted, meaning that if there were a violation, I would expect the revocation would proceed from there.

But in the instance of the correction plan, and this is for some of us, maybe we don't work in this every day, right?

The difference between a stipulation agreement, a correction plan, a security plan, all these things.

Who who's responsible for uh implementing or making the decision to implement a correction plan?

And when I'm referenced, for example, where I have heard of other bars that, for example, that might have to close at midnight.

Would that typically be part of a correction plan?

It could be.

Um, the the stipulation agreement.

I mean, it's the I attached the copy that of the stipulation agreement that we go through with every liquor license application, or not we, the police department goes through with every liquor license application.

Um, the correction plans are more individually tailored to specific bar, um a specific bar's needs, issues, concerns, um, the issues that they're facing.

So uh that is something that is generated by the licensee and whatever it is they come up with, um, that's what they're going to be held accountable to.

So it's something that they're agreeing um to enter into with the city.

Um so there's there's more um individualization with the correction plan um that they submit uh rather than stipulation agreement.

But the the enforcement mechanisms are very similar.

If you if you enter an agreement with the city, you violate that agreement.

That's a violation of the citation would be the same.

It would still be a violation of a stipulation agreement.

Uh we could change the verbiage to violation of a correction plan.

Um we we haven't issued one of those citations yet, um, uh, since we updated chapter four a couple of years ago.

So if I'm understanding correctly, um, we cannot impose a correction plan.

A correction plan can be brought to us by the license holder, perhaps as a way to avoid a revocation recommendation.

Yeah, the correction plan is the licensees um, you know, way of showing that they are making a good faith effort towards addressing the concerns, especially the chapter four of our municipal code and chapter 125 of the statutes, the liquor license law concerns um that are that are linked to their establishment.

So um what steps are you willing to take um to address the needs and the concerns that have been brought to your attention by the police department?

Um and whatever it is that you agree to, we're gonna hold you accountable to it.

Okay, thank you.

Alder Galvin and Eck.

I can alter I can answer all the profits' question really quick, so that's okay.

So you are correct that the um prohibition on applying for the months for revocation only and not for non-renewal, but I will note um if the non-renewal is approved here, the license goes back to the pool of available licenses.

So although someone could apply for it again, it would they would be competing with other applicants, and then obviously there's a sort of practical consideration of applying for a license after you were just non-renewed, seems unlikely to be a successful endeavor to reapply again in a month or two, but there isn't a prohibition.

Thanks, Trey.

Okay, this is for either of our city attorneys.

Um, as I understand it, the correction plan can happen unless they have a license.

Is that correct?

All right.

And the correction plan can only happen if the owner feels like, oh boy, I'm in trouble.

I'm going to approach the city and ask for a correction plan.

This PD can't approach them and say, hey, you should probably go in and request for a correction plan.

Yeah.

So the chapter four spells out the process because before we used to have a system where there were points associated with different types of violations.

So when chapter four was rewritten, um, instead of having the point system, we created this step, this correction plan or this correction meeting to bring everyone to the table, talk about concerns, talk about potential solutions, resources that may be available, idea generation.

Um, and as a result of the correction meeting, this correction plan would be created.

Um so it's kind of modeled similar to our nuisance abatement system where the PD recognized that there is um a concern at a particular establishment.

Um they call them in for the correction meeting, and as a result of this correction meeting, um the onus is on the licensee to come up with this plan to address those concerns.

Was that done in the last two years with this bar?

Yes, the correction meeting was held the first week of April of this year.

Oh of this year, correct.

All right.

And and what was the plan or we haven't got it yet?

Uh it's it's in the packet.

I included the first version of the correction plan and it's uh as but we're here for non-renewal, correct.

So if we do renew it, is this correction plan that's been submitted, kicking the place right away?

Yeah, I would I would think that it would be in effect from the like I said, the 12 months from the date of the correction meeting.

Okay.

A week goes by, and there's a violation of the correction plan.

The bar is cited.

When would council be having another quasi judicial hearing on this process?

I was actually hoping to glean some guidance from council as far as um how soon you would be looking for some kind of suspension or revocation hearing, because that would be a complaint that I would be filing um in order to take that step at that time.

Um, so I'm attentively listening to see what kinds of concerns um council members are raising um to to guide me in that process.

Well, I no, I I guess what I'm asking is there's a violation of the correction plan, city ordinance, whatever.

They're cited.

And do we just let it go?

Does someone bring it to city council's attention and say, hey, this guy that had a correction plan?

It's there's been a violation already, there's been a citation issue, it's still going through municipal court because we know how that process works.

Yep.

And then uh um, you know, and then I haven't even thrown in the fact that maybe he decides to fight the whole thing.

So, Alder Gavin, really quick on your just to specifically answer this question.

So the process of a complaint to a revocation, the only two requirements are that a correct the licensee has been the subject of a correction meeting and that they commit one or more subsequent violations of this chapter, which is chapter four or chapter 125 of the state statute.

So that's the only threshold for the city attorney's office deciding to prove uh proceed with the revocation process or a suspension.

So holding through the threshold.

All right.

So how long would it take?

You mean subs if there's a subsequent violation?

Yeah.

Um it's it just the time it takes to put those documents together and submit them to the clerk's office.

All right.

Uh, there's a notice process and um or service of that complaint.

So I mean it's I guess a matter of a weeks, depending on the calendar for the council.

Weeks and and if you got legal counsel and decided to fight it.

Well, either way you get a hearing, whether you have legal counsel or not, there's a same process, quasi judicial hearing if it's requested.

So you're telling me that if we grant what Alder Johnson looks like he's he wants to look at.

Yeah, I know you're just asking, but if we grant that and there's a violation, you're saying it could be back here within two weeks.

No, probably not within two weeks.

That might be a little bit of a rush.

But so if you approve the renewal, um, we proceed forward, we continue to have violations.

As I just said, the ordinance just requires one.

I'm assuming it'd be subsequent violations.

We'd confer with the police department and get their recommendation, obviously.

And then if a revocation is appropriate or we deem it to be appropriate, we start the process, which is just a complaint, has to be filed upon the license hold.

If someone's in complaint has to be filed on the license holder, uh, there's a a two-week notice period, I think.

And then we would have it at the next council meeting, uh, something like that.

I'm kind of summarizing, but it's a handful of weeks to get that process done and get it to the council agenda.

So a month or two.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right.

Thank you.

So thank you, Mayor.

Um so although it's difficult, um, I I would ask that uh council members, you know, not make it an emotional decision.

Um, but based on the evidence that is before us, um, not being responsible when serving alcohol uh leads to possible dangerous situations like the fights, the the gunshots.

I mean, that's you know, that's really um very dangerous.

And um, yes, there were less issues in the last couple months, but that was after being denied the license.

Um, so of course there's gonna be um adjustments made, and you know, I can appreciate that.

Uh, but we're talking 150 police hours, and that doesn't include the meetings.

That's a lot of hours.

That's a lot of money being um put towards this.

I think there's been a lot of effort um in trying to help them.

Um, so I concur with Elder Galvin's um recommendation and also um definitely stand by our police department for um standing with our denial.

Thank you.

Other comments, Elder Hutchison.

Um I agree with Alder Eck and Alder Galvin.

Um from the record that's been presented by our staff.

What I see is if we allow a continuation and give them a license, we're gonna be here in two or three months.

There's they had a site citation on April of this year for violation of stipulation agreement.

So they're already headed down that path.

I I don't I've visited that establishment years ago to listen to music.

It kind of I could hear it in his voice, he has plans, uh, but I can also see from the record that uh it's not happening voluntarily, and so what are we gonna do?

Stipulate something so in three months we're here again.

I I see there's enough here that we can make a decision based on the evidence, and and I would agree that we should not allow this to continue.

We really shouldn't.

Thank you.

Other comments.

Either holder delay.

You know, the problem I have with this is that um you waited so long to implement security protocols.

You let it go for so long.

Um I love the business that you have.

The uh local music is great in Green Bay, but to wait this long and then get a denial, and now suddenly we're ready to start implementing security protocols and writing a security plan that I just feel that it's it was kind of like a last ditch effort to try and retain what you have.

Um, I think some of this stuff should have been started a long time ago, and I'm with the other elders right now.

Um I just can't go forward with this.

So learning for some profit.

Thanks, Mayor.

Um in looking at this, I have to agree with my fellow alders.

Brian or Alder Johnson, I understand where you're trying to go with this, but this is a lot of time, a lot of police calls.

Um stipulation agreement was not followed.

Um I understand it's when you take out the alcohol license, there's a lot of responsibility that goes with that.

So I have to support my all other elders and the police department.

Thanks.

Um, so as I mentioned, I was a bartender.

I still have my license.

I still pick up shifts every once in a while for fun.

Um, so I I'm very much um it's kind of a small, I always tell people we're the third largest city, but it really feels like a small town.

So I'm still very much familiar, and I frequent um our downtown scene in after hours.

Um, my my concern here, I guess, is you know, we had PD confirm some disturbances.

231, 206.

Um, and we we've been talking about a soft close, but it hasn't been trialed yet.

I mean, I very successfully worked at a bar downtown in Green Bay.

Um, that was key.

That was integral.

Um, and we didn't wait.

Um, that was always the standard.

Um, so that's that's my biggest hang up right now is that there are things in here that could have been for a long time implemented.

Um what we're looking at is a non-renewal versus revocation.

So here this is my train of thought.

Um I asked the question about the waiting period.

Um, if we go through we want to up approve, you know, let them continue.

And then there's the possibility that we revocate.

Well, then there's that 12 month waiting period.

Um, if we go forward tonight with a non-renewal, there there is opportunity to continue some form of business.

They can do uh wine, they can serve wine.

I know they house baby showers, there's still some revenue streams there available.

Um, and then there is no waiting period.

Um, if they can show um some significant changes again, I I reference that I still go downtown um during these hours.

It it's I don't foresee how we can put these changes into place and get that messaging through to a community that has already used to what they've been used to with our this establishment.

So I mean, if we haven't made those changes already, I I'm I'm hesitant that I'm gonna see them, and I'm leaning more towards let's go forward with a non-renewal.

That doesn't put a 12-month clock on it.

If we if we go let them continue, um, and we're here for a revocation.

Well, then they have a that 12 months.

So I just I think the best way forward tonight is is moving forward that this non-renewal.

Any other comments?

Elder Johnson, is it possible to ask the appellant a question yet?

Yeah.

Yep.

Uh Alexander.

Um obviously the the the topic of the question plan has been broached, and that it would have to be something that you would initiate.

Uh if the council were to grant your appeal, would you uh understanding there's I don't think there's any legal obligation here, but it's putting you obviously in the sphere of public pressure.

Uh, would you agree to a correction plan that would uh provide training to your staff for over serving that would require you to close at midnight?

Um that would require you to uh clean up, I guess that perimeter sweep and that you would include staff intervention with any incidents that occur outside.

Yes, absolutely.

As I said, we were open to any suggestions that came from the council or this meeting.

Um so all those suggestions included, yeah, we would certainly be fine.

Uh be happy to put in a correction plan and add those things into that plan in order to stay in business.

Okay, thank you.

Thanks, Alder.

Still lean a motion.

Alder Presley.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Um, I'm not sure if Alder Johnson is still just asking questions or if this is the idea, but I think I can get behind that idea if we put you know voluntary stipulations on it.

Um if they come back uh, you know, in a couple months with another another violation, I'd be the first to recommend revocation.

But I know we're talking about why haven't they done it sooner, but they do seem to be doing something now.

Um and if that's because they got fear of God put in them.

Um they're doing it now, regardless of what the reason is.

We haven't had um as many issues in the past couple months.

We've seen um I mean I I think I'm for giving this organization another chance um with the understanding that if if they mess up, that is this is their last chance.

So I'm maybe in the minority, but I think I'm with Alder Johnson's hypothetical.

I don't know his real opinion yet, but thanks, Alder.

Alder.

Thank you, Mayor.

Um, I'd like to make a motion to deny.

Eric makes that motion to deny the appeal, seconded by Elder Galvin.

Additional discussion on that motion.

Seeing none, all in favor will say aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Yeah, it's up here to have it.

Also that motion succeeds to deny the appeal of that license uh renewal.

Um next on to referral of petitions and communications motion to adjourn, maybe Alder X.

Second by Alder Ritterbush, all in favor say aye.

Opposed nay.

The ayes have it.

Thanks, everyone.