Good afternoon, everyone.

It's 5 30 p.m.

on Wednesday, August 13, 2025.

We're in the public assembly room of the City County Building.

Welcome to the public safety and criminal justice committee of the City County Council.

We'll start introductions of our council members for this committee on our bottom row, Council Hart.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

My name is Michael Paul Hart, representing District 20.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Josh Bain, District 21.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Brian Mowray, District 25.

Thank you, Chairman Jessica McCormick, District 16.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman Brian Delini, District 2.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, Dr.

Carlos Perkins, District 6.

Council Carlino.

Good evening, Chairman Robinson.

Christa Carlino, District 11, West Side.

Good evening, Mr.

Chairman.

Frank Mascarry, District 19 on the Southeast Side.

Councillor Boots.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman Dan Boost, District 3, Washington Lawrence Townships.

And Councilor Graves.

Good evening, everyone.

And thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Uh keep graves in Indianapolis.

Uh Council District 9 on the east side.

Thank you, Councillors.

I'm Lee Wyatt Robinson, Chair of the Committee, representing District 1.

There are four budget items on our agenda this evening and one proposal of first proposal 243 2025 directs the public safety and criminal justice committee to review the and accept the submission of the sheriff of commissionary fund report.

And speaking tonight will be Director Grider and Deputy Chief Williams.

Two one come forward, please.

And share with us the report that you have for us to review.

Deputy Chief.

Good evening, Counselors.

Good evening, of everybody tonight.

Good, thank you.

Good, good.

I'm here on behalf of the Marin County Sheriff's Office, Sheriff Kerry Forrestall.

Dear Counselors and Clerk, this letter shall include my quarterly report as required by HEA 1208, public law 54, 2025.

This new statute changes the frequency of the commissary report filings from semi-annually to quarterly, effective July 1st, 2025.

That's the same as hereby tendered in accord with Indiana Code 36-8-10-21 as amended and in accord with the City County Council General Resolution 4 2025, dated January 14th of 2025.

Attachment three is the required record of receipts and disbursements of the Marin County Sheriff's Office Adult Detention Center's commissary fund for the period of January 1st, 2025 to July 1st, 2025.

If the counselors or copied recipients have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me directly.

Thank you very much for your attention.

Sincerely, the Marin County Sheriff's Office.

Thank you, Deputy Chief.

So counselor, in your packet, in your original packet, where the agenda is, you go back a couple pages there, you'll see that report uh with the attachments included.

Uh the deputy chief spoke about.

It's all in there uh along with the letter from the sheriff.

So commissary questions on the report.

Counselor Hart.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

I'm just looking at some of these cash disbursements, and I see a reoccurring uh charge for gasoline alley rental LLC for rental space.

I'm just curious if you could provide an explanation of what that is.

I'm sorry, sir.

Would you repeat that one more time?

Certainly.

So I'm looking at the cash disbursements, uh, and there's a reoccurring fee for the amount of fifteen hundred dollars every month for rental space at gasoline alley LLC.

I'm just curious to what that is.

That is a garage where the Marion County Sheriff's Office keeps uh our two Polarises, our ATVs that we use, our bicycles that we use, and our motorcycles.

Fantastic.

Thank you, sir.

You're welcome.

Um, this may be a question for the for the clerk or for the staff.

How how soon do we get these reports before committee?

When are they available?

Um for us to review these before the committee hearings.

When's the earliest we can get those?

Is there the statute that says the no?

They just have to submit them quarterly, and so they submitted these in July, but it was after our last meeting in July.

So maybe a month before the uh committee meeting.

Yeah.

Okay.

Thanks so much.

District Commercial questions.

The Deputy Chief.

Seeing that chair, anyone in the audience care to speak to this report from the sheriff.

Motion copy moved and seconded.

We don't need to vote on this.

This is just an acceptance report.

Good enough.

We accept it.

Thank you, Deputy Chief.

Appreciate you.

Thank you.

Have a good evening.

We do have four budget presentations this evening.

First one up is the Marion Superior Court.

All the packets are in front of you at your at your at your desk there.

And I will have Judge Rothenberg come forward, please.

And Judge Goes.

Welcome to both of you.

Thank you very much, Chairman.

Members of the council.

With me today is Holly Fellows.

She's our director of finance.

Also with me today are judges Steve Creason, Marie Kern, our members of the executive committee.

Thank you, Jim.

All right, there we go.

As well as our court administrator and other members of our court.

We do appreciate your time tonight, and we'll try to make it relatively quick and straightforward for you.

Thank you very much for allowing us to present our budget.

And Judge, just so you know, we'll we'll do the questions at the conclusion of your presentation.

Absolutely.

Thank you.

Absolutely.

So as you know, uh the Marion Superior Court is uh comprised of 36 judges, 39 magistrates, over 600 employees, structured into three divisions, and that's by local rule, civil, criminal, and family, uh handling a variety in all types of cases in Marion County aside from small claims cases, which are uh submitted to the small claims courts in Marion County.

Uh the court itself has independent departments and divisions under its purview.

I'm not gonna read the slides directly to you, but I will point out that court administration youth services, the new family and youth intervention center, 25th and Keystone, and the probation department.

It's structured again with the executive committee, that being four judges elected by the fellow superior courts for two terms.

I am the presiding judge uh and those duties are delineated in our local rules once again.

One of the highlights of our facility at this criminal, or I'm sorry, the uh community justice center is the legal resource center.

This allows people who are pro say or self-represented to come in, get research done, uh, look for things such as forms, and we have volunteers there to assist them in their efforts to help their representation again in all types of cases from criminal to family to civil cases.

The legal resource center has four navigators who help out in assisting those self-represented litigates.

We found that providing this uh certainly takes a burden off of the courts itself.

Uh as before, a lot of questions were asked to the court staff.

However, the court staff could not give legal advice, and the navigators don't give advice either, they simply point to a direction.

But again, it does help those uh who are representing themselves or those who uh for some reason can't afford an attorney and still are able to get there and do their own research.

I should point out that since opening in June 2022, 34,000 visits have been clocked.

Uh just this year we have been averaging 1,500 visits, uh, which is 900, or I'm sorry, which is approximately 600 more than we were at the same time last year.

So it is a incredible success.

One thing we'll be looking at are a couple is uh the fiscal highlights community community service work program, which is what our community service work that people are sentenced to or or that they are required to do through uh certain diversion or other programs and the benefit that gives to Marion County itself, as you can see.

Uh there were approximately 3,500 community service work hours last year, the benefit being about $25,000.

Uh currently we're running approximately the same when this was developed.

Uh this slide was developed.

Uh however, I it really kind of depends what's happened.

We've got there's been a couple changes in the law to allow for uh certain uh aspects of community service work that has changed.

But if you do have questions on that, I'm gonna refer you to our probation department head chief curl who is here tonight.

Going to the kiosk probation reporting, another successful program that was launched a few years ago, launched uh right prior to COVID.

This allows thousands of probationers to not necessarily have to make the trek downtown, but can go to various locations around the city checking in via kiosk.

This saves them money.

It is uh more efficient for us, and again, these are probationers who may be on probation for uh often misdemeanors, who again simply just need to be checking in and verify their attendance and participation in probation.

One of the new highlights we have this year is the family and youth intervention center.

This is the new respite center for the family and youth at the 25th and Keystone location.

Um we do several things there.

There's a small library, uh book donations where people can come and uh get information in the book project, medical services, transportation.

We do provide that for youth and family to and from the center, as well as other mental health uh partners who are helping provide services there.

Budget breakdown.

This is pretty much why we're here.

Uh this shows our funding, shows the general fund, the adult probation fund, the alcohol fund, alcohol services fund.

I should point out that while it does say there's a total increase of 698,000, largely that is due to grant fund increases.

It is not an actual increase in what we're asking from you.

We are for the most part still looking at a flat line budget request from the county.

Revenue from Marion County is generated through assessed fines costs, probation fees.

Uh those that can't be voluntarily given to us easily.

We have uh partnered with the uh Office of Finance and Management's recovery unit, and therefore those do go to collections, and we have had a quite a bit of success for that.

However, there is a bit of a fly in the ointment on that, which some people don't realize when they say, hi, how come you guys aren't collecting fees on every case?

Uh Indiana Code 353376.5 requires us as judges to determine in all criminal cases, for example, whether there should be fees assessed, and in doing so, we need to do that through an indigency hearing.

This examines a person's assets, their income, necessary expenditures, uh whether or not they're paying child support, for example.

We may consider other uh that person's eligibility for public assistance and aids they may be receiving.

This is done through a series of questions under oath, can be done at the very beginning of someone's initial hearing.

It could also be done at sentencing for the purposes of probation.

I happen to do them at both times.

It used to be that if someone had posted a bond automatically that bond money could be turned over for those particular fees.

So assessing the fees and collecting them wasn't as difficult.

However, there was a case that came out last year, um, spells v state.

It's not that intriguing of a read, but it is an important read, which says that even if there is a bond paid, the court has to have an indigency hearing and determine whether someone is indigent as to whether or not they can still collect those fees from that bond.

It should be pointed out that public defender fees can come from that bond without a determination.

Grants that we've uh received.

We are currently receiving grants from the Indiana Department of Correction, and they go to support the following programs as you can see listed there.

Some of those are the drug treatment program, the Veterans Court Program, Juvenile Detention Alternative Initiative, JDAI.

Also, we receive Indiana Office of Court Services funding.

Some of those programs again, they also help fund re-entry uh court, other problem-solving courts, commercial uh court law clerks, because they do commercial court is a designated court that handles commercial cases, quite a large document with quite complex cases, and therefore law clerks uh are there to assist the judge in a lot of those things.

And finally, the Indiana Criminal Justice Institute provides the funding for the new family and youth intervention center.

Budget breakdown character one.

You'll see uh our funds there.

I should point out one of those funds, the DRCB is being re envisioned right now with through uh mediator functionality.

I should also point out that the only grant that's uh funding that is listed there is for the FYI, the Family Youth Intervention Center.

Character two, again, you can see uh character two by the budget funding.

Again, we're not asking for an increase.

As a matter of fact, there is a decrease in the it's a decrease in uh grant funding and fleet gasoline budget.

So we're actually decreased on character two.

Character three, there is a decrease of uh a budget variance, and that's largely due to a decrease in controlled accounts, that being ISA and uh building rent, building authority services.

Character four, budget increase.

Uh, as you could see, again, stated there, the county general fund and the other federal grants.

And this is an increase of fifty-four thousand dollars, but that's because again, the increase in federal grant budget, not an increase in a request from the county.

I said I'd make it quick, and that's about as quick as I can make it.

But I'm more than happy to answer any questions you may have, counselors, chairman.

Thank you very much for your time.

Thank you for your presentation.

Judge comments and questions from council.

Councilmascary.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Uh, my question are about grants or the way the federal government's cutting grants in the state.

Are they affecting you guys yet?

Yes, they are.

Uh, we got our grants cut that would have gone to problem solving courts by the state at approximately 13 percent.

Um, it's sort of a you know, it's uh not so related to trickle-down economics, but it is a trickle-down effect, right?

It just kind of all goes all the way down.

So, yes, it is affecting us.

And and so far we have maintained those services, but we're finding new ways and innovative ways to maintain those services.

I can't say forever that we will maintain those services.

I can't say that we won't maintain those services.

We do uh try to concrete challenges that's given to us, but yes, so far those grants have uh made an impact on us this coming year.

Thank you.

Counselor Boots Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Um thank you, Judge, for coming this evening.

Sure.

Um couple questions, three to be exact.

Um can you tell me a little bit more about what superior courts are doing to address uh the heightened eviction rate in Marion County and what's the structure of, for example, I know uh court 33 with Judge McMath is handling a lot of eviction.

Is that an exclusive arrangement, or are other courts handling eviction cases as well?

Eviction cases also go to small claims court in Marion County, but the laws that they can actually be filed in the Superior Court as well.

What was happening before was the eviction cases that were coming to the Superior Court were being spread out amongst the civil courts.

When we had the opportunity to look at how those were arranged, we determined that probably the best course of action for consistency and fairness is to put that under one umbrella with one judge, and that would be Judge Ring Math, and that's exactly what we've done.

Judge McMath runs a full docket of uh she not only oversees uh evictions but she oversees um collection, some collections and traffic as well.

So she does have full conviction or I'm sorry, eviction dockets.

As to the details as to how those are run, largely as we are an organization, we are individually uh elected and uh retain judges.

So I think if you have any questions, I could probably point you to her for more detail on that.

Sure.

But I can tell you that it has been met with uh quite good success in the way she's done it.

I think the attorneys and the parties have uh found her to be quite fair and quite consistent.

So that's that's the best I can tell you at this point.

Sure, as I understand that a plaintiff or landlord can file directly in small claims or directly in superior 33, correct?

That is correct.

And again, those used to be just filed in the superior court itself and then spread out.

So we felt decentralized out there.

Must the landlord file in the township in which the property is located?

There's some debate over that.

Uh, and we would look to the legislature to get some clarification on that.

But there is some debate as to whether or not they must or where those jurisdictional uh requirements lie.

Do you see that landlords are doing any forum shopping among the townships?

Again, I can't answer that.

I don't necessarily supervise nor work with the small claims.

I think the best person potentially answer that who might be here would be our circuit court judge.

Uh but from the superior court, again, the only in the way we avoided what I would consider, I guess, forum shopping was centralizing in one court in Marion County.

So I really don't have any information on that.

All right, I could probably get you that information, but I don't have to.

Well, I'm just curious on uh because you know it's a concern if people are running over around to the finding a township that's you know the weak link in the protection of our uh tenants, and if they're finding a township that's really heavily uh favoring landlords, that's a concern because obviously all the landlords would file in that township.

Sure, and I I can tell you this.

I'm not certainly an export expert on uh you know eviction landlord tenant law, nor am I up to date with how that particular aspect of the laws around the county and the different townships.

I can tell you in the past, certainly that has happened, but again, it's something we haven't dealt with since we've put in place court 33.

Sure, okay.

And I know we're I'm having some offline discussions with Judge McMath.

I just wanted to try to clarify my understanding.

Um the legal kiosks, yes.

Um I noticed there was none listed for Washington Township.

Is there a reason for that?

I can't answer that as much as I think I'll hand that to Chief Curl because she can give you better idea of how those were determined the locations.

Thank you, Judge.

Thank you, Councillor.

So our goal and and our goal and objective is to have these kiosks in every township.

The town the challenge truly is the expense.

So we we did see the vendor increase go up.

We did move the kiosk that was here in the seat at City County building out to center township.

They had requested that.

Um and honestly, our population dictated that.

So my goal is if I can come up with about $14,000 a year, I can put one everywhere.

It's a matter of about $1,575 starting next year per kiosk per month.

So we're continuing to look for funding because it does make a difference.

The investment of $132,000 a year to provide service to almost 2,000 defendants is impactful.

Yeah.

And it provides success.

So we're continuing to look for that.

And the superior courts are funding that and not the townships themselves.

Correct.

It is a cooperative agreement with the township.

They provide the electricity and the internet access to the device.

We then cover the cost and expense of the actual kiosk in each location.

Is there been any discussion of asking the townships to bear that cost?

We have not, then that we truly look at this as a collaborative, a collaborative opportunity with the townships.

And for some of them, they're paying, they are paying quite a bit for the internet each month because it requires a dedicated line.

So at this point, we have not reached out to do that because we believe that our collaborative relationship is much much better affected that way.

And we can cover it because these clients do are required to pay user fees.

So those user fees we can continually look back to put those towards the expense.

And if I may state part of the reason, also is while it is a collaborative effort between the townships for those functionalities, probation still does fall squarely within the purview of the superior court.

So I mean we could potentially negotiate, but it's you know, the small claims in the superior courts are different courts at this point in time.

So as this would be as if someone is going to see the probation officer instead they're going to see a kiosk.

You know, we do fund the probation department, so therefore we do have to fund the kiosks as well.

Got it.

All right, thank you.

Final question.

Sure.

Um may I, sir?

Chairman.

Um correct me if I'm wrong, but the Superior Courts also handle criminal cases and handle and set bail and set bond amounts.

Is that correct?

It is indeed.

So it's not the prosecutor who decides a bond or whether a defendant gets bail, it's it's the courts, correct?

Correct.

Uh I would say that there, as you may know, there are requirements for certain types of cases, the domestic violence cases that will set an initial bond or hold someone without bond for a period of time.

It is then within the sole discretion of the judge.

Now there is input that the judge will take regarding how bond is done, and that can be from those prosecutor and the defense attorney, for example, if someone's had no criminal record before, or if someone has had a criminal record before, not appeared in the front of the in front of the court before.

Remember, the primary reason for bond itself is to uh make sure that someone reappears for court and assure their presence there, although there are other considerations such as public safety that come into the effect.

So, yes, the prosecutor themselves does not do not necessarily well, they don't set bond, but they do make recommendations and do make arguments towards that.

Wonderful.

Thank you very much.

Sure.

Council Delaney.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Um I noticed in your presentation as well as in the materials that you've received state and federal grants.

I was wondering if you could tell me what those are and what the grants are being used for.

I think Ms.

Fellows could probably give you a little bit more point.

Do you have any specifics?

Because we do receive quite a few state and federal grants.

No, I just noticed the sum was quite large.

Um, and that that appeared to be the only increase in funding.

So I was just curious as to what those were.

I can definitely tell you what some of those projects programs are, right?

Uh throughout the United States, there's been a move for more specialized courts, whether you agree with that philosophy or disagree with the philosophy.

Uh, there have been uh some uh results to show that, for example, a specialized court for drugs, drug treatment court, not necessarily a drug court, but a drug treatment court to get people uh help for some of the issues they have has had some success.

As a matter of fact, in the state of Indiana, not only punishment is not the key to any type of sentence, but you know, restoration and getting someone back on their feet and uh putting them on the right path is pretty much the focus and it's set out in the Indiana Constitution.

So things such as the drug treatment court, the mental health court, where someone may have uh a mental health issue that wouldn't necessarily coincide with a some standard probation practices or one of the requirements might be that they would have to have a mental health provider, which we partner with.

But in order to fund those particular specialized things, we do get that through grant funding.

Uh re-entry court is another one that would be so you know, people who have had issues before who are trying to get a foothold back into the community.

Veterans Court is another situation where uh you know veterans might just need a little bit more help than others, and we put them in touch with veterans' programs and stuff like that.

So a large amount of our grants go to that.

However, there are other functions that are grant funded, such as interpreter grants.

As you know, our population in Marion County becomes more diverse, and we have people who speak uh various languages, everything from Haitian Creole to Haka Chin to French to you name it.

I mean, they speak it.

And the cost of those types of services for interpreters have only gone up.

And in order to maintain the ability to provide, which are necessary constitution provisions, um proper interpreters for those particular clients.

We have to find ways of doing that.

And in order to do it, in order to pay for it, um, we get grants to do that.

That's a huge part of what we're doing.

Uh, as a matter of fact, right now we are dealing with the rising cost of interpreters.

It's a it's a conversation we have almost every week within our courts.

Um beyond that, uh, stuff like the youth and family intervention center, alternative uh sentencing aspects, things we can do to keep people out of the system and provide them the help that they need, even something as small as um you know, guiding them towards alcohol treatment and things like that.

We use grants to fund a lot of that stuff.

I mean, if the money's available and it's designated for those particular programs, we try to utilize it as best we can.

That being said, as mentioned earlier, some of the grants have uh been cut as of late, and you know, that provides some difficulty, but we're trying not to put that burden back on the county.

We're trying to do initiatives that would make us at least a bit more efficient right now.

Um I can't say that'll last forever.

I can't say that we may not come in front of you in five years and say, hey, you know what, we do need to provide interpreters, and in order to do that, we're going to need money.

But right now we're doing just fine.

But that's why the grant funding has gone up.

Those programs have expanded, and again, the rising cost of some of those programs.

Does that answer your question?

If there's anything specific you want, I'm more than happy to get that information for you.

So are these new grants or are they just continued?

Well, could continued grants.

Okay.

I suppose the youth and family intervention center is more of a new grant.

That's what the grant increases.

That's the grant.

That's the that's the biggest grant increase that we had mentioned earlier.

I think I mentioned that was really the only true large grant increase.

Uh there it is.

That would be under character one, that increase of $1,663,000 was for the Family Youth and Innovation Center.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Council Carlino.

Thank you, Chairman.

Um, and thank you very much for your presentation.

Judge Rothenberg, I appreciate the work that that you all do across the team.

I had a chance to go out and visit um the FYI center before it opened um and and walk through there.

So, but I do agree, Counselor Delaney.

Um, I would appreciate Judge a chart that kind of lists out and breaks down, even if it's rounded estimates, some of those programmatic things.

Sure.

Um, you know, and especially flag for us, the fiscal body, if you foresee or know of those cuts or the just as it's related to the grants, correct?

As it's related just to the grants, yeah.

I think I have the same question as counselor Delaney, um, what that what the breakdown was.

Um, and I know that with the building, the renovation and the other things for the center, that that makes perfect budgetary sense.

So um, but would like to just see the overall breakdown of those.

We'll get that information.

We'll get that information for you.

I'm sorry about interrupting.

We'll get that information for you.

Sadly, again, what you'll see is a decrease in several grants, an increase in that large grants, but again, we'll get that for you.

Thank you.

And I know it's expensive um to do some of those specialized pieces and then communicating about those, especially the FYI center and connecting everyone to that resource is really great.

So I urge my colleagues to visit that um center as well and contact Chief Curl to do so.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Thank you, Council.

Council McCormick.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Thank you for the presentation.

Um, I just had a question I wanted to ask um going back to the fiscal highlights about the community service work.

Sure.

Um, the delta from 24 to 25, even looking at that six month total is down, and if it tends the next six months, it turns the same way.

That's down about 20 uh like 20 percent.

Um so I was just wondering, um, sorry, 40 percent.

Uh so I'm just wondering it like is there an impact on that or is there an explanation as to why that happens?

I'm just curious on that number.

I think there could be a lot of explanations uh, and again, I don't know if Chief Curl can expand on it a little bit more.

Uh, but part of it comes down to how many people are sent to community service work.

Sometimes community service work is done in lieu of other aspects.

For example, someone who has an OVWI, they are allowed to either do jail time as required or community service work is required.

Sometimes they'll choose to do jail.

So again, it'll wax and wanna a little bit, but I think more detail can be provided by Chief Curl.

Yeah, thank you, Judge.

That's a great question because it does as judge stated it depends upon when it's ordered.

It also depends on the length of time someone's on probation.

So, for example, someone may have probation of one year, they work really hard to get it done in the first year, others kind of put things back.

So it truly is it truly fluctuates from year to year.

We we do give options of a work crew, or they can work for a non-for-profit.

All of our providers are vetted, and we do follow up and fidelity review those to ensure that the providers are giving our clients what they need, and our clients are being treated well at those facilities.

So we we watch that very closely.

We have one staff member who is designated and is covered through my budget that operates the program.

So it truly is an investment back that we can truly say goes back to the community.

Yeah.

If I could follow up, Mr.

Chairman.

So given that there's one person uh if we're down this year, manageable, but last year's numbers were much higher.

Is that is there a need for outsourcing help with that when those numbers increase?

Like, is there I believe counsel, we've been able to manage that very well once again because our community partners do most of the work and verifying the hours and doing that work.

We have been just fine with the one staff member and being able to expand that operation, and she does go out and visit and follow up.

Okay, thank you, sure.

Counselor Grace, thank you, Council.

Thanks, Mr.

Chairman, and thanks for your presentation this evening, Keith Graves.

Here I was like, Oh, I heard a voice.

Okay, there you go.

It's not her voice.

You gotta understand you well, no, you gotta understand I had an extra jury, so me moving is the same.

Yeah, no problem.

Go ahead.

Yeah, I certainly appreciate you uh sharing the information tonight.

My question uh is regarding uh the fees.

Can you confirm that um if a bond is paid, uh public defender fees can't come out of that?

Is that still because I think you mentioned that it used to be that way, is that still the way?

That is still the way.

It can come out without any type of indigency requirement.

Meaning so two things happen typically, for example, in my court, which is a misdemeanor court.

When someone has initial hearing, I will go through whether or not they're working.

If they I mean, I start with three basic questions, and then it kind of becomes this tree of things.

For example, are you employed?

Do you have any savings?

Do you own a car or a house?

Any real property, how many people do you support?

I go through a long list of questions.

And sometimes and uh lately, quite often, a lot of the people have no funding whatsoever.

I mean, they just don't have any money to pay anyone.

In those situations, because of their being found indigent, I won't necessarily assess public defender fees.

If someone does have a job, however, maybe it's not paying as much as someone else's job, and they might not be able to get an attorney, or if they come back for review counsel and they haven't been able to hire an attorney because no attorney will take their case for the money they have.

I will appoint to public defender, but I will assess the public defender fees, and those public defender fees have been raised over the past few years.

But yes, short answer is once those public defender fees have been assessed, if they've paid a bond without another indigency hearing, you can get those public defender fees.

However, if it's court costs, you have to have another indigency hearing at that moment or probation cost.

So yes, public defender fees can come out, but I would say that we've been uh under the law, you have to do that initial indigency hearing, and that's when you would assess those public defender fees.

You can't just assess them if they're indigent and then later change your mind.

I mean, it's either so there's kind of two steps to it.

But yes, they can come straight out of that bond.

And that's what I really want to uncover if you're saying that once it's been determined that an individual is indigent and they should be eligible for a public offender, that can't be switched in the middle of the year.

It can be switched.

So we we run into some difficulty there.

It can be switched if their circumstances have changed, right?

If they've become employed, and and oftentimes I'll ask them that at sentencing, once their case is done, I'll ask again, are you employed currently?

Once I'm assessing probation fees, that types of things.

Um, in the past, you know, attorneys who've been appointed, and I'm not you know saying pointing the blame at anyone because there's really no blame here.

You know, their their opinion is hey, that's their clients that's their client's business, and they've been appointed and they're there to handle representation, not necessarily asked their client whether or not they've got a job or whether or not they're able to hire an attorney so they can get off the case, right?

So I mean that's where it gets a little, you know, yeah.

My concern is that an individual that is truly determined to be indigent, uh is uh has the uh family uh network that were able to um pull the money together so they can resume their life while their case is being is pending.

Um I just want to confirm if we're saying that that that pool of money that they've been able to uh come together with and and so they can resume their lives, continue their work, continue to be with their families, is going to possibly cause them to be found not indigent.

No, I again for the public defender fee uh you could take that bond.

It's a it's you can take it, right?

So you put you know, mom has posted the bond for for her son, son's not working, he is clearly indigent.

At the end of his case, I will assess whether or not he is working now.

Uh if he's living with mom and she's paying all of the expenses, then perhaps I do take some of that bond for probationary fees, that type of thing.

But we do it, but we do encourage them through probation to get work to get their life back on track where it needs to be to help with the situation they're in.

So, yes, it it really is a case by case basis, aside from the fact that we must have that hearing again at the very end if there is a bond.

Thank you.

Mr.

Chairman, I just wanted to uh mention that fees of any sort.

Uh there's a problem if an individual's been determined to be indigent uh during dependency of their case, they're not able to resume their their typically normal uh life.

Uh other other fees like ankle monitoring fees, etc.

Those some of those things are are challenging, and we've all uh come to understand that um courts, the court system and these fees, they don't favor individuals from lower income ho households.

So this is not a problem for individuals that are not from poor income households, but it is a problem for individuals that are already living in a low income household, then they've already been determined to be found indigent, and then somewhere along the lines they were able to put that money together and resume their life during dependency of their case, and then they are their that money is going to be taken away.

So this can present itself as a barrier for individuals and families working together uh because the individual, as we as we know it, they're not even found guilty at this time.

They're it's during the case during dependency of their case.

So uh I just want to bring that to your attention, Mr.

Mr.

Mr.

Chair, just uh as a concern of mine.

Thank you, Counselor.

This new comments.

Counselor Bain.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Thank you, Judge Rothenberg.

I just want to say from the onset that it is um refreshing that we have a presiding judge or you know, really anyone that leads a department that's able to go through their entire budgetary presentation and answer all the questions that are asked.

It does not happen very often, unfortunately, even though we everybody has qualified staff that can go through and answer all the qu answer all the questions and everything.

It's it's just refreshing.

Um may give a brief um 30, 45 second overview.

What's the difference between superior court, circuit court?

Um, surprisingly, we at least surprisingly me, we have a lot of people that watch these live streams.

Uh sure.

I can give you a really brief summary, but superior courts are created by statute, circuit courts are created by the constitution.

Every county in the state of Indiana has a circuit court.

Uh superior courts are created and uh sometimes collapsed by the legislature based on need.

And there's a whole assessment process they go through.

If you if you were watching the legislative session last year, several courts in the state of Indiana had judicial officers taken away, some had some added, again, based on increased decrease in cases.

And again, there's a measurement, and I'm not going to get into that measurement or the aspects of that measurement.

But the big difference is the Superior Court is a uh function of statute.

Circuit court is a function of uh constitutional creation.

How each county determines what cases go where in each court, some counties only have a circuit court, so that county is gonna handle every or that circuit court's gonna handle everything.

Some counties will have one circuit court and one superior court.

Sometimes they split everything up.

Marion Spirit Court has an agreement and it has and has always worked with the circuit court judge to determine what cases go where, who's gonna get one cases right now.

Uh the circuit court doesn't, I don't believe they handle any criminal cases, whereas we handle all the criminal cases, and again, we've dedicated certain cases just to the purview of the circuit court.

So really uh we all kind of have the same power.

There is there are certain aspects of the circuit court that things will fall into.

For example, often election challenges will fall into the circuit court.

Um it just really defined by the Constitution of Vivian.

Okay.

But it's fair to say that Superior Court is the criminal court of Marion County.

Yeah, I would say that definitely.

So when we hear things tossed around like revolving door of criminal justice, you know, it seems like so many people at every level are using this term.

What do you think about when you hear that?

Well, first of all, I'd have to say that I don't really know how that appoints the budget, but I will answer your question.

Uh I think there's been a lot of questions here that's a good thing.

No, no, no.

I'm fine with I'm fine with it.

So I've been this isn't my I'm not gonna say my first rodeo.

I've been on the executive committee before.

I'm fine answering the question.

But I had to preface that.

Um I will say that every case that comes before us as dictated by the Indian Constitution has to be dealt with as an individual case.

Not all cases can be dealt with the same.

Just as uh Counselor Graves has pointed out, every person's situation is different, and every person's situation needs to be evaluated, whether it's their fees that are evaluated, their bail being evaluated.

It's hard to predict.

And I released them because they didn't have any criminal history before I released him.

He was a a youth, as a matter of fact, he's probably 18, 19 years old.

Soon as he left the jail or being processed out, he robbed another person who was being released.

The media came to me and said, Why did you release someone if you knew they were going to rob him?

I said, I don't have a crystal ball.

Humanity is difficult to deal with, but you have to look at the empirical evidence that's in front of you when you deal with this.

Sometimes you have to make tough choices, and you have to make those tough choices as a judge.

Remember, as I said, redemption rehabilitation is the primary goal as set out by the Indiana Constitution, and we have to keep that in mind in every sentence we make, right?

It's easy to say, hey, we should lock up as many people as possible because our city is dangerous.

And dangerous people should be in jail.

I don't disagree with that.

I've lived here all my life.

But there's also the presumption of innocence.

Everyone is entitled to a bond by the Indiana Constitution, a reasonable bond.

I would say that our bonds in Marion County are similar because we've looked at them off many, many times, similar to the other counties in the state of Indiana and the donut counties in the state of Indiana.

Simply raising the bond because someone lives in Marion County has some implications.

Again, every case needs to be dealt with the same.

And I think the judges who do the hard work that we have in our building take that extremely seriously.

Oh, I'm just going to let everyone out because that's just how it should be.

No, it's taken extremely seriously, especially sentences.

210 years.

I sadly I had to sentence a 21-year-old for a part of a quadruple murder, right?

I've sentenced someone for life to life in prison.

I've also sentenced someone for time served on a case.

So it's a long answer to a short question, but in some ways, as a judge, you have to set those comments that you hear aside, because we are still given the duty to look at each individual case individually, with concern for the community and the safety of the community, but at the same time for the uh rehabilitation of the people in front of us.

So something that's been brought up already tonight is bail and bond and how the prosecutors involved in that process.

A judge still has to set the bond in conjunction with like do they take the advice from the prosecutor?

Is the prosecutor even involved in that?

And especially when it comes to like plea deals as well.

A judge has to sign off on a plea deal, correct?

The judge has to accept or not accept the plea deal.

As a former prosecutor myself, although that was well over 25 years ago, I can tell you that oftentimes the parties know a lot more about those cases than the judge themselves.

And sometimes the judge will question that.

I've questioned that before.

Certainly when I was in major felony, I questioned it quite a bit.

And if they were to be able to explain the circumstances behind that particular plea, it would be accepted.

It's not essentially the judge does determine what that is and determines whether that's a just plea deal.

Or a sentence if someone's convicted.

Remember, a plea is just an admission of guilt.

It's it's an agreement between the parties.

The judge really has nothing to do with it as long as they accept that.

They're actually bound if once it's accepted by the terms of that plea agreement, unless there's a violation later on, in which then the judge can verify, uh, not verify, uh, very from that plea deal in resentencing or revoking someone's probation or or changing a sentence.

Um but getting back to your your actual question.

Judges are given discretion, as they should be, to deal with circumser certain circumstances.

I've said this many times.

Bonds can be set, levels of the bonds can be set by the legislature.

And if the legislature changes the laws, and as they have already with domestic violence uh domestic violence defendants who must remain in jail for a period of time, we abide by the law, and that's what it is.

And and no one, I can assure you, no one at this at the CJC, no judge is barking up a tree going, the legislature can't do that.

No, that's the legislature's role.

The legislature's role is to make the laws.

Prosecutors role is to prosecute cases, defense attorney's role is to defend someone within the realm within the bounds of the Constitution, and the judge's role is to determine whether or not someone's sentence is correct, someone's bail is correct, aspects of a case are correct.

And I can tell you that is taken extremely serious by me and my colleagues.

I appreciate that.

And something that's been brought up uh a lot over the past couple months is juvenile crime here in Marion County.

It seems like one common complaint that we keep hearing from law enforcement is that they do not have access to the court records of juveniles who have committed crimes, and it's been a constant request that they would like that access.

Have you been c I've been in contact with Chief Bailey regarding that particular aspect, and there's a long history behind that.

Um that I'm more than happy to have a conversation about.

It and it is a in fact a long history behind it, but there is a reason we're in the position where I but we are moving towards uh getting them the information that that's necessary and required, while at the same time there's information on juvenile cases that cannot be given, as you may know.

Well, it would be something that couldn't be given.

For example, things involved uh certain child's in need of service.

I mean, there's certain things required that are constitutional or that are confidential by the law.

Now that doesn't mean that well the information that's being asked for can't be given.

I'm just saying there are certain circumstances that can't be given.

For example, you can't just give uh anyone access to I don't want to say a database, but the filing system, because that would have information in it regarding again, it's a really long explanation regarding uh you know I really I really it's a long explanation.

I can tell you that we are addressing that situation currently.

As a matter of fact, like I said, I as of last week we've had meetings with the police chief.

Are are you committed to uh giving them the information?

The information all information that legally they can be given.

Are you committed to giving?

Uh, but I should also tell you the legislature's already done that.

The legislature's already last year made laws requiring a state repository of that information, which can be gotten through the state police.

So we but we are still trying to facilitate even more information that they can get from that for easier access to that.

So we're committed to doing that.

We're again, we're committed to giving them the information that they they want, the information they need, the information that will help them to determine whether or not a juvenile has a criminal history.

Absolutely.

Okay.

Counselor uh counselmascary.

Thank you.

Judge, you're very wise.

I mean, uh I have one question for you, and I know this isn't follow under your privy.

All the Hispanics across the country are being arrested.

There's no due process.

What's your thoughts on that?

In other words, they can pick them off on the street, go right to jail.

I what do you mean with no due process?

I think they go straight to change.

I will say this the law, the law is pretty clear that there has to be for someone to be arrested, even if the arrest is here for someone who is uh here of a legal status, doesn't have legal status in the in the United States of America, there has to be a reasonable suspicion at the very least for that.

They're not proving that.

They're just taking him and not giving them a chance to go to the courts at all.

I can I can say this, and it's gonna sound like an excuse, but it's a hundred percent true.

What I believe actually doesn't matter whatsoever.

I followed the rule of law.

The rule of law says this is what happens, this is what happens.

The rule of law says this is not what you're doing.

You're given due process, correct?

I think due process is should always be afforded to everyone.

Thank you.

Counselor Hart.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

I'm gonna switch gears a little bit, different different type of court.

Um civil violations.

All right, did civil court too?

So I'm I'm also can answer that question.

Yeah, so it's it's one of the things that I'd say I as a counselor I see a lot more predominantly when uh I'm dealing with business use cases and things of that nature.

Um, one of the challenges that that we've seen, or at least I've seen as a counselor, is uh the amount of time that's made available to the city prosecutor to come in and have some of those civil cases heard.

How much time is that court hearing cases a week?

Honestly, I think that's uh another question that would have to go to judgment math because she's more particular.

I can get that information for you.

I don't have it off the top of my head.

Okay.

I I believe it's four hours on a Wednesday in the morning.

Which is entirely which is entirely possible.

I I don't know.

And that's for you know a city of uh nearly a million people and a lot of violations, and you know, where you know we spend a lot of time, I'll speak for myself, spend a lot of time is on economic development and growing the community I've got on the east side and holding individuals and and businesses, specifically businesses accountable for uh being bad businesses, sure.

And we are struggling on our side of town, uh, not only for the availability of the the time that uh court is available, but also uh the amount of continuances that are happening.

Um as it pertains to the budget, uh I'm curious to know specifically how much is allocated to that court uh this coming year, and how much more would need to be allocated to that court to ensure that we have more time to hear cases.

There's not a particular uh a particular allocation to each individual court.

To hear more cases, what you probably need are more judicial officers.

I mean, ultimately, right?

A lot of those cases get settled before they even come by agreement between the parties between corporation counsel or or the city prosecutor and and the parties themselves.

The only problem with having more judicial officers, and it goes back to the question that was asked earlier, is how many judicial officers are or how many courts you have, which again the the question that was asked between circuit court and superior court.

Um the determination of how many judicial officers you have is done by a mechanism through the Supreme Court through the legislature.

It should be pointed out that when you do that calculation to determine how many um courts you have, they all have to be within a variance, and there's a formula and an equation that determines what that variance is, and that variance is basically how many cases this judge hears spread across.

That's how we determine how many family courts there are, how many civil courts are, how many uh how there might be one court that deals with um civil prosecutions or civil cases like that.

It really depends how many cases there are.

We can't simply allocate another judicial officer because that would cut down the that would be that would make the variance too wide of a variance.

So even though it's a even though it's a civil violation case, you still have to compare it to all of the other courts in Marion County, right?

That's why, for example, there aren't four traffic courts.

There used to be when they when they started that whole equation, and I was also the traffic court judge a long time ago.

Uh the requirement looked like we needed about 12 traffic court judges.

It can be done by one person, right?

As to how many cases go through on that Wednesday morning, I don't know.

Jeff judges work at different paces.

For example, I do a criminal court docket and I move pretty quick.

I can tell you on a regular Tuesday morning through my probation regular docket, I'll hear 50 to 60 cases.

Some judges can't do that.

That's just not uh how quick they can move through.

I don't have the specific number on, but I can get that number for you uh regarding Judge McMaths.

I can tell you that we do look at that variance, we do look at the amount of cases.

That that system is called the weighted caseload system, by the way.

If you want to look it up, you can Google it and you can you can see how the equation is all works out.

But in determining what work goes where in the division work in Marion County, that's what we have to depend on.

All right, yeah, I just want to let you know that you know I I I was speaking with past and current city prosecutors and the things that they're doing as they are prioritizing the cases because they only know there's so much time available in that court, which is telling me there's not enough time available in that court, and whether it's it's head count in your character, your character one or whatever that looks like, uh I'm confident we need to make an adjustment to have more time available for our city prosecutor uh to get through the caseload that they have so we can provide the quality of life and service to the citizens of Indianapolis.

And I would say this I would say I don't think the answer to that is budgetary as much as is uh judicial economy, and we'll take a look at that as far as maybe adding another docket or something to that effect.

And I'll talk to Judge McMath and make a note of that.

Thank you, Judge.

Counselors, anyone else?

Anyone in the audience couldn't speak to the superior court's uh presentation this evening.

See now, thank you, Judge.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Counselor Chairman, I appreciate the time.

And again, if you do have other follow-up questions, always available.

Uh spelled just like it sounds Mark M ARC dot Rothenberg at NDE.gov, and I will be happy to reach out and answer any questions you have.

Thank you, Judge.

Up next, Mary Circuit Court.

Presentations are again or in front of us, Judge Amber Collins.

Welcome, Judge.

Good evening.

Thank you for allowing me to present tonight, and good evening to the chair and the members of the committee.

My name is Amber Collins Gabriel Hewitt.

I'm the Marion Circuit Court judge.

Um if there aren't any other questions, I would like to begin the program.

Please begin.

Thank you.

So as Judge Rothenberg pointed out, the Marion Circuit Court is the only constitutionally created court in the state of or in Marion County.

Every county in Indiana has one constitutionally created court, that is the circuit court.

The circuit court in Marion County is divided into two divisions.

Um we have the Title 4D division, uh, which is we hear cases under Title 4D of the Social Security Act.

Those cases are child support enforcement and collection cases in which the state of Indiana is also a party to the case, along with the usually the custodial non-custodial parent, which is usually the mother and the father.

We also have a civil division in Marion Circuit Courts.

We hear about 8.5% of the general civil cases.

That's everything from med mail to car accidents.

We also hear exclusively all of the name and gender change cases, correction of birth certificate cases.

We do get certain election cases, um, like an election recount case, um, unless there's a conflict of interest, we hear all the quiet title tax sale cases, administrative specialized driving privileges cases in the county, which is a lot of a lot of the civil cases before the court are self-represented litigants.

So the agency staffing for the two divisions, the Title 4D division has one full-time magistrate and one part-time magistrate.

Um, the civil division has myself, the presiding judge, there's a full-time magistrate that also hears civil cases, and then the part-time magistrate from the Title IV division, also about a third of his caseload is other civil cases.

So he hears 40 cases about six or seven dockets a week, and then two to three other dockets he hears civil cases, and then the Marion Circuit Court also funds a navigator with the legal help center because so many of our cases are self-represented, a lot of probably between 18 to 25 percent of the foot traffic in the legal help center for circuit court cases.

Um I guess some of the programming and fiscal successes for the Marion Circuit Court.

Um, like I had mentioned earlier, the Marion Circuit Court hears all of the name and gender change cases, correction of birth certificate cases in Marion County.

That docket has exploded.

Um, and I put some statistics in the presentation in 2023.

There were 483 total cases of that type filed in Marion County.

Um in 2025, we've already between January 1st and May 31st of this year, we had over 508, so we've already exceeded the total number that we had in 2023.

We're projected to hear over a thousand of those case types, and we've absorbed most of that extra work just with the staff that we already had.

Um, most of those people are self-represented, so the court and the staff does most of the work for those cases.

Um we also um preside over the Title 4D cases.

Some of the funding because 4D is a partially federally funded program.

Um, part of the expenses for the Title 4D docket um are reimbursed to the county in the general fund, and that number was about 108,000 last year.

Um, and also the circuit court has done a lot of community outreach.

Um I kind of created a program for local youth.

Um, sometimes they come to the court, sometimes I go to the schools.

Um, they do mock four deers, they do mock trials.

Um, and it's really a good way to get a lot of the local teens into the court just so they can see like courts not always scary, you're not always in here if you're in trouble.

Um, so it's been a really successful program.

All the kids that have come through it have really enjoyed it.

IMPT IMPD teen academy came, um, the St.

Florian Academy or a summer academy, which is run by some of the IFD officers, they came and did a mock for deer, so they really enjoyed it.

Um, and we are trying to expand that next year.

And there's a picture, a couple slides on on page six.

That's the um IFD summer camp that came.

They took a tour of the building, they sat through a mock boardier process to see what it would be like to be a potential juror.

We have volunteers from the prosecutor and public defender office.

They had a fake case, um, and they got to do a mock trial or part of a mock trial to see what the border experience will be like.

So they really enjoyed it.

Um, and they had a lot of questions.

They got to talk to an attorney and a judge and see what life would kind of like what they asked the questions like, well, how do you represent someone if you know they're guilty?

So they really enjoyed it and learned a lot, I think.

Circuit court's priorities throughout 2026 are to continue to run in efficient and cost effective courts.

Um the court may potentially, like I said, we had an explosion in name change cases.

Also, the civil collection cases unfortunately have increased dramatically with the toughening economy, so we may need to add a an additional court staff person.

Um, and the court plans to increase this community outreach overall and just show the court that um show the community that the court is a safe place, it's not always scary and that the court system is there to help the community, we're here to serve the community, that's our function.

Um our budget breakdown, our total budget for 2026 is 1,307,000 135 dollars.

Um, there's a decrease, a total decrease of 20,135.

Um, the revenue that the court brought in, like I talked about the Title IV federal reimbursement because that's a grant um fund re refunded program was about 108,000 back to the county.

Our character one total um for 2026 is projected to be 903,334.

There's a decrease of 83,726.

Um, our character two was flat with five thousand dollars.

Our character three, there's an increase of sixty thirty-three thousand five hundred and ninety dollars.

The total character three for next year is three hundred and ninety-five thousand three hundred and ninety-five thousand eight hundred and two dollars, and the increases are mostly for um ISA and required um building expenses that we have to pay, and then our character four budget was flat at three thousand dollars.

Does anyone have any questions?

Thank you, Judge.

Appreciate you.

Congress of questions for the circuit court judge.

You want Council Bain.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, and thank you.

Um judge for being here.

I'm sorry, how do you pronounce your last name again?

Collins Gebray Hewitt.

Perfect.

I just wanted to make sure I said it right.

Um is the court able to leverage fees?

I believe I remember seeing that somewhere.

Are you guys able to do you guys have fees or fines?

So we don't have fines, we don't do criminal, we do collect filing fees.

Um, and it's Judge Rottenberg said, so it's really the civil cases where you pay filing fees, not the 40 cases.

Um, the state of Mediana gets those fees waived.

Um, but we have to assess every case.

So every person is able to file a petition to weigh the filing fee, and I review all of those.

Um if the person truly is indigent, if they're on, you know, TANF or Medicare Medicaid, then those automatically get waived.

If they're working and they're lower wage and they have a lot of children, I often waive them.

I've had people ask for filing fees and make 200,000.

Obviously, those get rejected.

Um, so it is a case-by-case basis, but everybody is entitled to request one on a civil case.

Okay, but you don't have the ability to leverage fines.

Not the court.

Civil court, we cannot level f leverage fines.

I was reading an article, and I don't know, maybe it was a little outdated.

And I'm sure we can talk about the case because the case is closed, and unfortunately, um the little girl that was involved in it has since passed away.

But it looked like it said that you had find the mom of Zara, the five-year-old toddler.

No, uh, we cannot find people in that was actually a family law case, and we do not find people on family law cases.

Okay.

What are your thoughts on that case?

I can't talk about the case because this case is technically so open.

Okay.

We're prohibited by the ethical rules.

I'm talking about cases that are still pending, or any case, even if it's closed.

Okay.

I think the issue that a lot of people have, and I know you're in the audience for the previous back and forth with Judge Rothenberg, is that people look at the court system and they see people like Zara's mom treated harsher by judges than dads that go out and commit domestic violence against moms and kids.

And we end up seeing the result of that on the evening news.

So I'd ask as you go forward, we'd be a lot harsher, we'd be a lot stronger on these cases.

So that way they don't end up on the evening news.

Thank you, Councillor District Commerce.

Council Muscari.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

How long have you been a judge?

Uh Judge Collins.

I've been the judge in circuit court for three years.

I was the magistrate for Cheryl Lynch for three years.

I'm gonna ask the same question I asked the other judge.

Do you believe in due process for all the Hispanics being rounded up?

I do.

Okay.

You know, it's it's really sad.

Many of them are Americans, but they don't even get a chance to go to the judge, and that's what's sad.

You're just putting uh jails in some col concentration camps.

But I sort of check your thought.

Thank you.

I believe everyone is entitled to at least a hearing.

All right.

So thank you, Judge.

Thank you, uh, counselor.

This no comments.

Counselor Boots.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Thank you, Judge Collins, for appearing this evening.

I just wanted to follow up on the kind of the conversation we have with Judge Rothenberg as well.

Can you just expand on the delineation between cases that you handle versus the superior court and and who decides that and how is that process carried out?

So I think Judge Rothenberg kind of talked on the weighty case load, so it's kind of complicated, but every case in Indiana, case type in Indiana gets assigned a certain number of minutes.

Um, and then they take the minutes and do a calculation, and it it equals out as to how many judicial officers you can have in every court.

Um so probably about every two years, the marrying county courts all together, every court in the state has to submit a plan as to how the cases are going to be allocated, who's gonna hear what, and how many judicial officers are going to be dedicated to each type of case.

Um so I meet with the executive committee every two years, and we kind of sit through the resources that I have the resources that they have.

Um I have certain judicial officers that have to hear family cases um just because of the way they're designated.

So it basically based off the negotiation, and I have to hear certain civil cases by statute.

Um so we just kind of come to an agreement about what courts hear what.

So it's kind of easier to keep civil cases in a court that already has to hear civil cases as opposed to sticking park criminal cases in a court that has to have family and criminal cases.

So it just kind of is statutory and also a creature of the way to case load.

Yeah.

Do both courts sometimes will handle cases of similar nature.

Yes.

Okay.

Thank you, sir.

Council Council McCormick.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Excuse me.

Thank you for your presentation.

Um, I sort of have two questions that are maybe a little related.

So when you talked about character one, the decrease looks like about a salary, or is it was that a salary or maybe two, depending on what the role was.

Is that was that an un a position that had gone unfilled, or there are folks taking cuts?

That was a position that had not been filled yet.

So nobody was cut.

Okay.

Um, and then so going back to earlier in the presentation when you talked about the navigator and the load that's helping those that are self uh self-representing.

Um, and then a couple slides later you mentioned maybe needing to add someone else.

Um of the things, because I know we have this budgetary constraint, right?

Like we have these dollars that we're trying to make work.

Um I would encourage maybe if you could partner with our in uh local colleges, universities, and maybe start an internship program because that would be a great way for folks that are wanting to work to do even service hours or something.

Um and I'd be happy to like have conversation offline, but um that could be a way to kind of help with that load, that navigator caseload or hours load or whatever.

Um and still meet your budget line.

So I do often have um law school externs who come, um, they get credit, um, and they can help do certain functions.

Um, but I do appreciate the suggestion it may be helpful to get uh undergrad ex intern to help with some of the more administrative work.

I was gonna say undergrads are good and they're they're hungry for it too, right?

So that experience, so yeah, so I'm sure you could find some really good folks in the in the city.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Council.

Council Graves.

Thanks, Mr.

Chairman.

And how is it going?

Good to see you, Judge.

Good to see you, counseling.

Um, I noticed on the uh programmatic and fiscal successes, you mentioned that you have the youth program, and it's only acts to improve the court standing in the community.

Um, why is that important?

Important to me.

Uh, yeah.

Um I grew up in the community, and I do a lot of youth functions, and I and I used to be a prosecutor, actually, and I think people always had a negative connotation that the police were bad, the courts were bad, um, especially inner city youth that don't always have the most from their perspective, positive interactions with law enforcement.

So I think it's important to I've been addicts, I've been to West Lane, show all those other youth that you know the court has other functions, and you know, they have the stereotype that you know we just lock people up, or you know, just to show them their certain careers that they might not have thought of.

Like I went to West Lane and did a my trial with them, and I asked, does anybody want to be a lawyer?

No one wanted to be a lawyer then, but three people were like, I'd like to be a detective.

Can you talk to me about what they do?

So I do think it's good to show them kind of just have the function of the court, how it works, um, all the different roles and they give them experience to a world that they don't always see.

And that's that's exactly what I was thinking.

So thank you for that explanation.

We we uh share that same uh thought.

Um, but Mr.

Chair, I just want to say I I really would love to have uh more presence in our communities to uh dispel some of the beliefs in our communities that certain certain parts of this justice system are absolutely our enemies, and I think that if we see more of our uh judicial members out in the community, maybe they'll help calm it down.

I think there's a lot of residual effects of uh positive effects that I think can happen.

Um I won't go into, but I do think that there can only be good things if we see more of what uh judge is doing in the in the community across uh not only circuit but the superior court as well.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Thank you, Council.

Additional comments, counselor c uh counselor Hart.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

I'm just you know, looking over the expense um by entity, and the one thing really caught my eye on here uh was the employee benefits, and I know those historically go up just for any organization just due to health care costs more uh than anything else.

Uh but I noticed your 20 24 to 25 jump is pretty substantial.

Um 75% from 164,000 to 289,000, and then again is about another 40 percent jump up through 26.

What what are all of you including inside of employee benefits?

Um it is well, I don't control the expenses for the benefits, they are slated by the county.

Um so all of my staff are on besides the judicial officers who some of them receive state benefits, are on county benefits, and a lot of them do have families, so their tiers are a little bit higher.

And I know the benefits went up, and I'm completely absorbing the cost of that in my current budget.

Okay, so there's nothing there's nothing additional, it's just the standard yes, health care vision, dental and all that stuff.

They get EAP, they get PERF.

Okay, yeah, that looks I'm gonna have to start looking at some of these comparatively because your jumps look significantly higher than at least even comparing to the superior court, your percentages are much higher than theirs.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Council.

Thank you, Judge.

If anyone in the audience could speak to this proposal, this uh presentation by the judge.

See now, thank you so much.

Thank you both.

Thank you.

Have a good evening.

Up next, our third presentation is the mayor and county coroner's office uh with Mallory Malziski and Alfred Laginti presenting.

Welcome thank you.

Good evening, Mr.

Chairman, welcome and members of the public safety committee.

I'm Alfie McGuinty, Marion County Coroner.

Thank you for the opportunity to present our 2026 budget to you tonight.

As we prepare for the year ahead, we recognize that our department, like many others, will have to face some challenges, and we fully expect to be able to work within these challenges.

But we understand that there are going to be challenges that lie ahead for us in our agency, and we remain committed to our responsibilities to meeting our needs of the community.

And despite these challenges, we are focused on continuing to serve residents and conducting death investigations to the best of our ability.

And these adjustments may require some creative solutions, but we're dedicated to maintaining the high standard of death investigations.

Just a little bit about our agency overview.

As you know, our agency is comprised of the elected official.

We have three departments administration, investigations, and pathology.

Our agency staffing, I am confident and comfortable that our agency staffing structure is diverse and talented individuals who make up our team.

We take pride in this diversity and remain committed to fostering an environment where everyone feels included and valued.

The majority of our staff are comprised of women, and collectively in leadership, we bring over four decades of experience within our agency.

Me, myself, I have over 28 years of experience with the Marion County Coroner's Office.

And we feel this is important and it plays a critical role in guiding us through our challenges and opportunities as we move forward.

We work closely with HR and the Office of Finance and Management to create more internal advancement opportunities within our agency through various types of middle management and position leads designed to retain talent and promote employees who meet higher working standards, as this is a very difficult job to do in our community.

So to support staff growth and morale, we utilize initiatives such as internships, community education programs, cultural competency training, and we prioritize staff appreciation events and activities, helping to build a strong sense of community in our workforce.

As an international city, it is important that our staff remain attuned to the evolving cultural demographics of the individuals that we serve.

We want every person from staff to families that we serve to feel understood, represented, and respected.

Our inclusive workplace culture is the foundation of our work and ensuring that we continue to serve the community in the best way possible.

So just looking at some of our programming programmatic and fiscal successes, over the past year, we have achieved significant programmatic and fiscal successes.

These accomplishments are the result of our hard work and collaboration and a deep commitment to meeting our community needs.

One of our most notable achievements was in data modernization.

And with that, I have to give a big shout out to ISA because they were very intrical in making sure that we were able to do this data minorization.

We have now become one of the leading agencies among coroners and medical examiners to do this type of work.

What this does is it strengthens our opportunity to enhance improvements in various capacities so that we can decrease turnaround times.

So for our operations, what we do is we collaborate with other jurisdictions such as the state, and we set a new standard for improving public safety and public service delivery.

So we've also made important strides in improving internal processes as well by upgrading our case management system to increase efficiency, reduce errors, and make it easier for staff to provide quality service while reducing manual data entry and improving turnaround times on much-needed death certificates that the families need to proceed forward following the death of their loved one.

One of the key initiatives is the continuation of our social workers as well and our family advocate.

This has been funded by the opioid settlement dollars.

This program provides direct support to families affected by the opioid crisis, homicide death investigations, and it helps to meet their emotional and social needs during difficult times and assisting in long-term recovery with grief following the death of a loved one.

These successes reflect our agency's ability to adapt and innovate while remaining focused on serving the community with passion, excellence, and respect.

So we are involved in community engagement and outreach.

So oftentimes people say, well, why is the coroner's office here?

Because it is our job to also educate our community to prevent deaths.

So while we conduct death investigations, we are responsible for education to prevent those deaths as well.

So we connect with communities through various partnerships that enhance services to Marion County residents.

And we want to continue in that effort.

So we've optimized our community service by also adding Spanish speaking staff and integrating social workers and family advocates to better support individuals and families, as you can see, some of the work and partnerships that we that we have had on the screen there.

So we also work with those that are in the underserved populations, and in my opinion, language and cultural barriers have not prevented anyone from receiving help.

We do use interpreters, but we also have partnerships that we connect with that can help us with, for example, Haitian speaking or Creole speaking families that need assistance in conducting when we conduct death investigations, so that's been helpful.

So most importantly, for the last two consecutive years, we've seen a decrease in drug overdose debts.

But this is a clear indication that these programs that we have are working and making a difference in our community.

And in 2024, as you see, you have the annual report before you offers a detailed breakdown of these trends and other key statistics reflecting the work that we do.

Looking ahead to 2026, we plan to build upon the successes of our current initiatives with ambitious goals.

We plan to expand data modernization and stay in the forefront of efficient data-driven decision making.

And our program priorities include continuing community education and outreach.

Our expected outcomes focused on reducing child fatality deaths from accidental gunshot wound injuries.

In 2023, there were three incidents involving children under 10, increasing to four in 2024, and with three already in 2025 under the age of three.

So there have been three incidences for decetants that are two and under, and this is getting access to guns in the home.

So we are now working in our community to distribute gun boxes and gun locks so that families have access to those resources to prevent those deaths from occurring.

So we remain committed to reducing those overdose deaths and continuing community violence prevention education, both critical to safety and the well-being of our residents.

So moving to the budget, you've heard about our our accomplishments over the past year.

So looking at our overall budget, we're looking at a reduction of about 228,000, a 3% decrease or cut in our county general budget overall.

While financial constraints often require difficult decisions, it's important to understand the broader impact that these cuts will have on our community.

So in more detail to account for the increases in COLA and health insurance, which has already been highlighted a little bit, this resulted in a reduction of 428,000 dollars or about 15% from our uncontrolled operational budget.

So when we say uncontrolled, we mean the operational dollars outside of those chargebacks or those chargeback accounts.

So maintaining current service levels could be a bit challenging, but this is not my first rodeo with budget cuts and reductions.

So we will definitely work with OFM to try to maintain our operations and the things that we need to do in terms of conducting death investigations through that process and fulfilling our mission of work.

So one of the things that has happened over the last two years is a discussion around charging other county coroners for the autopsies that we perform.

So typically, because Marion County has a significant number of the hospitals that accept those trauma cases, so trauma hospitals, a lot of patients, as they become deceitants die in those hospitals.

And what is historically happened is we have been unable to collect money from those county coroners when the deceitants, when the incident occurs in another county and the deceitant dies here in Marion County.

We have been more diligent in making sure that the law supports the opportunity for us to collect the fee for those pathology services.

So we are now charging those counties as we should for those pathology services for example an autopsy to be performed.

So there's a process that we go through with that.

So that is also increasing the revenue.

The other thing that we are doing is we are being more diligent in the fees that are assessed for records request.

There's a lot of litigation taking place outside of Marion County and within Marion County, and we are being very diligent in charging law firms for those fees that we are rightly owed for copying and recording information, also photos, lots of things related to the death investigation.

So we are keeping track of those requests that are coming in and charging those fees for that.

So that's another increase in the potential revenue that we have.

So what happens is we cremate the deceitant, we have the family relinquish their rights to us, we cremate the deceitent, and then that funding actually comes from the auditor's office.

But we will also offer to the family, like we don't want to hold the cremains of their loved ones.

So we will offer the opportunity for the families to then just simply pay the cost to recoup the cost that it took for us to cremate and put that back into the general fund.

And oftentimes that happens, but when it does not, we then have a what we call a final disposition ceremony where we will take those cremains and we will place them in what's called an ossuary where we will then honor those deceitants that have gone unclaimed within our office.

So looking at grants, um, as we know, the landscape of grants is kind of tricky at this point.

Um so we do know that we have retained some federal funding at 60 percent, unfortunately, um, for 2026, and we don't know the exact amount for one of the federal grants overdose to action that currently funds a couple of deputy coroners and some supplies and uh contractual work.

The other grant that really we have no idea about for 2026 also funds a deputy coroner and some supplies.

We just received the Health First Indiana, um, which is federally funded as well, and that's a partnership with the Marion County Public Health Department for 2025 and 2026 for some contractual work and community advocate for our agency, and then we are still funded under the opioid settlement funds, and we have deputy coroners that are funded in the family advocates, social workers that are also funded under opioid settlement.

Now what we don't know right now is the extent to which the social workers will be continuously funded under that opioid settlement.

We just had conversations about that, and so we're going to reevaluate that in the fall to see kind of where we stand.

We were given mental health dollars to support the mental health of those families under the opioid settlement beginning back in 2022, 2023.

We got about a million dollars for that, and so we are still going through those funds and distributing those free mental health services to our community that we have received under the opioid settlement funds.

So in character one, the budget breakdown is a 5% increase in the county general fund, and that's primarily due to COLA and health insurance.

Um in character two, um, we remove well, some of those funds, uh, $75,000 of those funds uh were a reduction in our in our budget.

Um, and primarily what that kind of equates to is small office equipment, um, photography supplies, uniforms, and safety supplies for death investigations to be conduct conducted.

Um the only concern would be that these challenges may be compounded by tariffs.

We don't know what that looks like at this point, but obviously some of the service providers may uh add additional cost onto some of those supplies for shipping and the cost of those supplies because of maybe uh possible tariffs.

We don't know what that looks like yet.

In character three, um, we had a total loss of about 294,638.

Um, this was primarily in uncontrolled and operational um budget losses.

Um a total of 354,000 um or about 13 percent was removed or reduced.

And this funding is primarily for forensic pathologists.

Now the forensic pathologists are the doctors that provide the autopsies for our office.

Um we've been in contact with OFM to let them know we don't know what the landscape of death investigations are going to look like in 2026.

We hope that those uh death investigations will continue to trend down.

Um however, if we see a spike in death investigations, it obviously requires a forensic pathologist to perform those autopsies.

And so there have been discussions that if we have to come back next year, depending on what the landscape looks like, then we will have to ask for some additional funding to support that.

Indiana law requires that we hire forensic pathologists to perform autopsies so that we can get those um results of the cause and manner of death.

So that's just within the scope of what is required under Indiana law for performing autopsies and using those forensic pathologists uh services for that.

And then in character four, um, we have a loss of about 17,000.

Um, really, what that looks like is some autopsy equipment and fleet replacement.

So we had planned to replace some of our fleet.

We do a lot of driving across the city to conduct death investigations.

So some of the vehicles are starting to age, and we um we understand that we're not able to purchase new new vehicles, but we want to make sure that if in the event we have bans that transport decedents, those bands, when they break down, it is a significant cost to repair and or to replace those.

So we want to just make sure that we're transparent and what that need might look like in the event that we have some of those fleet issues for 2026.

And so, in conclusion, with with that, uh you can you ask questions, but one of the things that I wanted to highlight was you know, despite our the challenges that we may face, we just want to be transparent that we don't know what the landscape looks like across the board.

We are willing to make sure that we can live within our means, but obviously that's based on the number of death investigations that we are conducting and what is happening with autopsies as well as equipment and supplies that we really depend on to make sure that we have accurate death investigations, accurate causes and manners of death.

So, with that, I'll take any questions.

Thank you so much for your presentation.

Uh, Councilmascary.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Uh thank you to this annual report.

I think it's going to answer a lot of questions.

Um haven't taken the 10 cent tour of the new facility have to myself and uh counselor Hart went to the old facility.

And it's mind-boggling what you were dealing with or using in the new facilities, unbelievable.

I don't think I'll go through it while you occupy when I went in as ribbon cutting.

But uh thank you for everything you do, Alfie.

Thank you.

Additional commerce of questions, Counselor Boots.

Thank you, uh Mr.

Chairman.

Thank you, Master Ma'am Cor, Madam Coroner.

Appreciate it.

I see you're taking a break from the state fair to come here.

I will be going right back there when I'm done here.

All right.

Uh a comment and just a couple of quick questions.

One, I just wanted to highlight a spectacular thing that I think you guys do, and that is the unclaimed decedence ceremonies.

Um I had the poor fortune of having a classmate who passed away, and no one claimed his remains.

And my high school class got together to have a ceremony.

And it was your people that did such a beautiful ceremony and had the doves and and that, and it just really struck home the compassion that your office shows and the wonderful things that you did.

Thank you.

And I will never forget that.

Thank you.

Can I speak to that too, just for a second?

Because I've been asked to come to various states and talk about the unclaimed ceremony that we do because we I believe that in life and in death, everyone deserves dignity and respect.

And so multiple states from Kentucky to Pennsylvania have asked me to come and share what we do with respect to giving dignity and respect to those that have have been unclaimed.

That's wonderful.

Thank you.

Do you see an impact on your on your budget with the reduction of criminal homicides and reduction of death with the reduction in crime in general in Marion County?

Yes.

Obviously, you know, it takes a lot of time to perform an autopsy on a homicide case.

Not only that, but our forensic pathologists also go and testify in those trials.

So then also what we have to do is we pay for that.

So we pay for forensic pathologists when they perform those autopsies to come back because oftentimes they're not from Indiana to come back and testify in those cases.

And we get a lot of positive feedback from the prosecutor's office from the pathologists being able to come back and testify as to what the cause and manner of death is on those cases in court.

So it does impact us.

So obviously, if there's a decrease in homicides, then that's fewer numbers of forensic pathologists that we have to pay to perform those autopsies, but also to come back and testify in those cases.

Great.

Final question, sir.

Counselor.

I'm looking particularly at slide number four, just looking at some of the key initiative outcomes.

Are you comfortable that everything you're doing, particularly in the way of family advocacies with the opioid settlement, that you're making sure there's not some overlap here with what other county or city agencies might be doing to make sure we're not having some wasteful spending by duplicative efforts?

Yes, because our cases are very unique.

So we're reaching out to those families that have been directly impacted by homicides and overdose debts, which is what the opioid settlement dollars specifically required for us to do.

And so when we make those referrals for those mental health services that are free, those referrals go directly to the mental health providers that we have on contract.

And so we follow those cases to assure that those families are being served.

And oftentimes they're not able to be served by other means or other resources.

So we follow those cases specifically for the coroner's cases and the death investigations that have been conducted by our office.

Now what we do is we do still go out and share that information with those in the community that would not otherwise know about free mental health resources that are available for those that have been impacted by trauma and overdose deaths, right?

And one other thing that I want to point out about that is what's happening with our youth and the youth that are impacted in the schools.

So we make sure that we are going to those schools so those students that are impacted and know those other students that have lost their lives.

Imagine the trauma that they are dealing with when their friends are being shot and killed.

So it is the ultimate goal to make sure that that issue is being addressed, and oftentimes it's not being addressed.

Wonderful.

Thank you and keep up the wonderful work, please.

Thank you.

Counselor Perkins.

And I've been at more than three homes this year where your staff has shown up for the remains of a loved one.

Um and I just want to publicly thank you for the care uh that they have shared with some of my members, whether that is two o'clock in the afternoon or three o'clock in the morning that they honor the families, every opportunity that I've had to interact with them.

Um what you can imagine is a very difficult time for families.

They have shown absolute care and professionalism in doing their work.

So I just want to say thank you.

Um and I want you to share that with the with the establishment.

I will.

Thank you so much.

Because oftentimes this is not the greatest time, right?

And we have to manage through uh with families.

Um my question for you is I remember last year um when opening the new facility that there was some conversation around um full-time versus contractoral pathologists and how much it costs.

Uh so at this time, like in 2025, how many full-time part-time pathologists do you have um and how much does that typically typically cost in terms of hiring a pathologist?

Okay, so um forensic pathologists are all contracted, right?

We have five that are regular forensic pathologists that um live here in Indianapolis that are fully uh sort of funded by the dollars that are within our what we kind of plan out, right?

Um so five of them.

Then we have other forensic pathologists that are what we call locums, and that is happening across the nation where coroners and medical examiner offices hire locums because they don't have enough on staff forensic pathologists to cover the caseload because forensic pathologists are only supposed to perform 250 autopsies a year.

So locums then come in and we have those contracted at about almost six hundred thousand dollars to pay for those locums to come in and help support our local forensic pathologists who are perform performing autopsies.

Um that is a growing trend that many coroners and medical examiners have discussed because um what it comes down to is we end up paying a little bit more for locums, but we have no choice because of the shortage of forensic pathologists.

So imagine if there's a shortage, you can pretty much charge premium for services, and that's what is happening across the nation where you did you cannot staff them.

They like the freedom to travel and go to different places and perform autopsies and take vacations whenever they want, and because there's a shortage, they can do it because we need them.

They are needed and required for these autopsies that have to be performed according to laws across the nation.

So that's kind of where we are with those.

Um so we have some that are standard here that want to be here and live in Indianapolis, um, but then we have others that we have to contract in to fly in from various places and assist with supporting our local staff, our local contractors.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

May I ask a quick follow-up?

Council.

Um, what is the typical uh turnaround in terms of time from the time of death to performing an auto autopsy?

And I asked that because as you know, um, in working with families, sometimes we have to wait for that process.

Yes.

Um, what's the typical time turnover?

So typically within 48 hours, an examination will be conducted.

So we conduct an autopsy or an exam within 48 hours of receiving that deceitant within our facility.

Then from there, um, we obviously, if we can determine a cause and manner of death at that particular time, we issue a death certificate with that.

Um, if not, then we pin that based on toxicology and histology uh and other ancillary tests that we may need to determine that cause and manner of death.

Um sometimes that can go out, especially on infants um and children if it's complex, that can go up to eight to twelve weeks to get that cause and manner of death because there are so many tests that need to be done.

And sometimes we don't know all the answers, so we may ask for additional tests to be completed.

So, in all, I started looking at cases at about 10 weeks, like, okay, what's the problem here?

What else do we need to do?

How can we expedite this to get the accurate cause and manner of death based on the examination that's completed?

Thank you, Counselor.

Council Grays.

Thanks, Mr.

Chairman, and good evening there.

Good to see you, Madam Corner.

Um, Madam Corner, I did notice that there was uh substantial drops in a lot of the different um categories of death, and that that's that's good to see.

Um, but I did also notice that there was one interesting sharp rise in one of the categories, and that's suicide.

And I know you are at your beginning entry, your introduction to this situation is once that's happened, but do you have any explanation as to why we might have seen a 35% increase in suicide in 2024 calendar year 24?

So, what we typically do is collect information during the course of the investigation.

Oftentimes what we are seeing is mental health issues that are untreated and undiagnosed as well.

So when we ask those questions, what is happening or what may have caused someone to want to commit suicide?

Oftentimes it is a lack of availability of mental health resources that prompt people who are dealing with mental health issues to commit suicide.

So one of the things that our initiative is um looking at those suicides and looking at how can we prevent that, and part of it is providing mental health resources to those people who need it.

Thank you.

Counselor Hart.

Thank you, Counselor.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

A couple things.

It has I'm I'm glad I've got this report in front of me because I can see some pictures of what appears to be the new facility, and that is a phenomenal upgrade from what I saw that day.

I have not forgotten.

So well done on that.

And I think you're in a different role since the last time than I was there too.

So congratulations on that as well.

Thank you.

But also I don't want to uh breeze over the topic that I find important across every agency, and you're the first to talk about it today.

And this is the first budget hearing I've had of the many I haven't listened to, and it was technology.

And grateful for your uh investment and vision and utilizing that to improve efficiencies and manage your caseload and everything that comes along with it.

So another way to set uh an example and standard of being a phenomenal executive.

So thank you.

Thank you for that.

Um look at my notes here.

So the one thing that I want to piggyback on to counselor Perkins because he kind of you set this up on the T for me here, is you know you you mentioned this type of role that you have to staff and and maybe there's others, and I may be shooting myself in the hood here, but we'll find out.

Uh there I have uh introduced a proposal um in our admins finance committee that essentially uh removes the residency requirements for uh folks in the county, and I'm curious of how that would impact your office if it would be in a positive or in a negative way.

Whew, thank you for that.

Um, yes, so it definitely would impact us positively.

So currently, we have I've had to give like this memo that says our deputy coroners are required to take a state certification.

So, what that means is if they are state certified, if they live in Hamilton County, why can't they work in Marion County?

Um, and so it gives us right now, you know, we have to submit the document that says, okay, they can live in this county because as the elected official I can say that um with approval from you know a couple other people.

Um so it would ease the burden of just simply hiring an experienced certified deputy coroner that can do the work.

So right now we have to look at do they live in Marion County before we can hire them, but their experience because they've done work in Hamilton County or Johnson County, so it definitely decreases the burden in those that we can hire to perform the specialized work that we do.

Okay, and then I I guess when when I think about this, you know, I think about the the job rec that you're putting online.

Does it say requirement residency in Marion County?

Yes.

Okay.

And you know, when I think about this, that if if I'm one of these skills and I'm rolling through there and I don't want to do that, I just breeze on by.

Yes.

Do you think this would help open up the candidate pool?

Absolutely, absolutely, because oftentimes when people see that they're like, Well, I don't really want to live in Marion County, or I have a house already in Hamilton County, but I'm certified as a deputy coroner, and I like to work in Marion County.

So it definitely opens doors and the opportunity for those that are experienced and certified to work for our office.

So it gives us a bigger pool of opportunity of people that can work for us and do good work that is expected to be done.

Wonderful.

Thank you, Madam Corner.

Mr.

Commas, Counselor McCormick.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Thank you, Madam Corner.

Um, I have a question about it came up, I think, when Chairman Boots asked a question.

So for the forensic pathologists, they so they come into the autopsy, and so that's a quick turnaround.

So trap the for the locums, the travel, it's expensive because it's last minute, right?

So there's that, and then traveling back for the courts.

Is there a way or where is the statute?

Can they attend virtually to present?

And is there what can we do to support that?

Because that would obviously cut down a lot on travel expenses.

Um, I don't know what that dollar impact would be to the budget, but we're looking for every penny, right?

Um, so can you elaborate on that or get some?

So I try to work with the prosecutor's office that if when we hire a locum to come in, we usually hire them to come in for a full week so they can offset some of the um autopsies and support for our staff that are in-house at that same time.

Also share that schedule with the prosecutor's office that hey, if you need this pathologist, because it's usually the same pathologists that are doing work for us who have already, you know, done an autopsy on a homicide case.

Can you use them and have your meetings this week and have your trial this week?

And so they are often given us the schedule of when that forensic pathologist is going to be in the city so that they can take advantage of that opportunity to decrease the travel time.

Now by law, and I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV.

By law, there's um some limitation to how and when you can do a virtual deposition, and all parties have to agree to it.

So defense as well as the prosecutor's office have to agree to a virtual deposition where they give the details of the case and take all of the information that is then taken to court.

So the parties have to agree, and it has to be mutually agreed upon that that will be the method that will be presented to court.

So again, over my head a little bit, but I just simply try to coordinate when those forensic pathologists are going to be here so that we can set up trials.

The other thing that we've done is our home base forensic pathologists.

We try to have them also substitute and testify in those cases when possible.

At one point, it was too overwhelming because when you have a forensic pathologist that has their own cases, plus they're substituting on a case, it could be somewhat overwhelming to testify on a 25 gunshot wound injury of someone else and a 25 gunshot wound injury of your own case.

So, but we they are amenable to do that, and so when possible, we do try to use the current home-based forensic pathologist to substitute so we don't have to fly in those forensic pathologists who perform the autopsies on those other cases.

So trying to, you know, you got to be creative, and then working with the prosecutor's office to also help them understand.

We we want to make sure that we are not utilizing too many dollars to prosecute these cases.

But it's important to make sure that accurate information is presented in court so that those cases as they go to trial can be successful.

Thank you.

I love the efficiency that you are working on, and as an engineer, there's always room for better improvement.

So continue that good work.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Counselor.

Anyone in the audience go speak to the coroner's presentation?

So no, thank you, Ms.

Coroner.

Thank you.

Have a good day.

And the last presentation is the man with so much patience.

Mr.

Emberger and Mr.

Walt, Mrs.

Walls, Indianapolis Mayor and County Forensic Service Agency.

Thank you, both gentlemen, for being patient.

Council members, it's a pleasure coming before you tonight.

Um this is my fourth time now doing this, and it's always been a pleasure interacting with you all.

Um my name is Richard Amber, I'm director of forensic services, and I have with me Chief Operating Officer Carl Swallz.

I also have my leadership team behind us here.

Uh so a quick overview of our agency.

Um, I'll just give a quick summary of what you see on the screen.

Uh, we serve the community by providing services and crime scene processing, DNA and serology analysis, seized drug analysis, blood alcohol concentration termination, firms and ammunition component, comparative analysis, lead print comparative analysis, document forensic document comparative analysis, and forensic evidence technician work liaison.

The agency contributes to the CODIS, NYBAN, and ATHUS, which are three national databases for DNA, firms, and fingerprints.

These FBI and ATF databases link evidence to crime scene from crime scenes to farms andor individuals locally or in other jurisdictions.

The agency is accredited to international standards assessed by the ANSI National Accreditation Board or ANAB.

As far as our staffing or staffing model, as of October the first, uh the agency is allocated 75 positions, which 71 are filled with four vacancies.

Two of the vacancies will be filled by late August, and two by by year's end.

As of August 1st, the agency demographics for the 71 employees were 72% female, just like Alfie, and 28% male.

We have 12 female employees that represent assistant supervisors, managers, and above.

80% are white and 20% are BIPOC, with three BIPOC employees representing supervisors, managers, and above.

As I've talked about in the past, and it's a common theme even at the university setting, getting a diverse candidate pool is very difficult because the diverse candidates do not trend towards forensic science, no matter how much we have tried or they have tried.

Our leadership team encourages employee personal growth through robust internal training programs as well as external training programs, which employees has been well received by the employees.

As far as successes, everyone loves successes.

We we we put a lot in our budget in the budget book, but I'll I'll go through just a few.

Last year, our laboratory employees completed nearly 12,000 requests.

From that they analyzed over 62,000 forensic pieces of evidence.

That number is a little bit of a misnomer because one item in our report can actually be 10, 10, like 10 cartridge cases.

So that number is probably much much higher than that.

The agency completed full reaccreditation in 2025, which I'm pleased to announce resulted in zero findings.

The assessment involved a team of 10 forensic technical assessors from all over the country, which evaluated the agency to just under 200 international standards.

Before arriving on site, they methodically evaluated our documentation and laboratory procedures.

While on site, the team spent the entire week evaluating our case analysis documentation, observed employees physically doing their casework, and asked probative questions.

It is a testament to the high quality work of our quality assurance unit and our staff for to achieve zero findings.

But out of 220 forensic laboratories, we were one of 14 to receive the Project Foresight Maximus Award.

This is an award recognizing top the top performing forensic laboratories that exceed 90% efficiency based on rigorous foresight business metrics.

The agency successfully transitioned operation from three different locations to the new state-of-the-art facility.

So thank you all for that.

This was a multi-purpose phase move plan to ensure instruments and evidence were relocated and maintained the security of it while not when not jeopardizing ongoing casework.

It was a very large overtaking.

We have staff that instruct programming and lectures.

We have staff that sit on forensic boards.

The leadership team participates on what they call the board of visitors at University of Indiana University of Indianapolis, what used to be known as IUPUI, where we sit in meetings, panel discussions, audits, and other programs.

The crime scene unit participates with the University of Indianapolis at the university's crime scene training house, which is used to assimilate mock crime scenes for their students as well as our staff.

The laboratory participates with IMPD at community day events to inform citizens of laboratory operations.

The crime scene unit attends community conversations where they inform community members of their role during the criminal investigation, what their processing techniques look like, and how their work at times can seem troubling to family members or bystanders that may be watching them.

This is also allows citizens the opportunity to pose questions that are very important to them.

The agency offers internships, job shadows, and tours to strengthen student education and awareness to laboratory capabilities.

One outcome that we struggle with the most is the outcome is with XPE vendors.

Much of our equipment and our supplies are single sourced.

And a lot of our like DNA kits and things like that, they're controlled by the instrument company.

However, our financial team set uh participated in a XPE reverse trade show in the hopes of garnering information from them, what kind of things they can offer to us, as well as our financial team monthly.

Look at the XPE vendor list for any potential offerings.

Some of the goals that we hope to achieve this coming year, the agency will continue to look at innovative ways to reduce the backlog.

Increase availability of staff to completion of training.

We've had a lot of training over the last two years.

We did we looked at since 2021, that's when I became the director.

We've had 44 vacancies since 2021.

That means a lot of training.

If you have one trainee, you have one trainer, which means you're taking someone away from casework.

We're gonna we're continues uh DNA, we're gonna continue continuing to use the DNA outsourcing initiative.

We're going to continue adherence to the laboratory reduction matrix.

Myself and the chief deputy director by monthly meet with each supervisor individually, and we've set a goal for them to reduce their backlog by 20% by the end of the year.

And then we take surgical approach to problem areas to hopefully rectify those issues.

And then we're so we're also focusing on casework that may be really old, that it's been adjudicated already to isolate those cases and see if they're actually truly still needed or not.

Uh I mentioned a second ago about the vacancies we've had.

The firearms section in 2024 was depleted.

It went through some major major issues.

We lost a lot of staff in the firearm section, and we're we're trying to rebound from that even to this day.

Um we have a lot of staff, and I want to thank IMPD publicly, they've helped us with some funding sources through CGIC for training, and we're gonna have some people coming online soon.

They auction the IPD actually helped us get one person into the ATF firearms training course, and he should be coming online by the end of the month, so I want to publicly thank IMPD for that.

Uh we want to have further uh progress in our blind proficiency testing.

Our quality assurance unit is is uh engaging with the Houston Forensic Science Center.

They're the leader in blind proficiency testing, and they are mentoring our unit on their practices, they're offering their support, their documentation, everything we need to further our program.

We want to increase our uh external training to law enforcement community.

We want to collaborate more with higher education to attract a diverse candidate pool.

We're constantly trying to find ways to diversify our staff.

And through continued efforts with educational institutions, the community engagements, partners, increased awareness of forensic science as a career path.

We want to engage the next generation that this is a really great job, and that this is something they can achieve.

And with that, I want to turn over to Chief Deputy or Chief Operating Officer Carl Swall to present the uh for instance the budget proposed budget for your consideration.

For the 2026 budget breakdown, uh, the agency's budget of about 12.8 million dollars is a decrease of 12,519 when compared to the 2025 budget.

Uh we were asked to identify 4% to place in reserves at the outset of the 2026 budget.

Um those reserves were fully restored to our budget to help cover uh mission critical costs at our agency.

Um 20% of our agency's 2026 budget is from federal grants.

There's less certainty about the arrival of those funds for 2026 than in the past.

If we do not receive federal funding at levels similar to the past, we may be forced to eliminate federally funded staff positions that work on sexual assaults and firearm cases.

We may have insufficient funding for critical supplies needed for routine forensic testing, and may have other operational functions limited.

I'm certainly hopeful to hear positive news.

To discuss revenue, our agency doesn't collect fees or anything like that, so our revenue really is from eligible uh reimbursements from federal grants.

To discuss more on grants, um, as I said, the agency relies on federal grants to support uh critical crime lab operations, and that's been the case for some time.

Uh the grant funds we receive support all kinds of work, with particular focus on assisting with managing backlogs to complete forensic DNA testing and reduce gun violence.

Uh we're awaiting decisions on a number of grant applications we have had pending for many months at this point.

Uh it's an unusual situation for this time of year, um, but again, we're hopeful that things will change.

For a character one breakdown, the county general fund decreased slightly because we anticipate our staff our staff may select lower cost health insurance plans than in the past.

Uh for the federal grants fund in character one, uh, the federal grants fund increased um in hopes that we might have an additional grant funded firearms technician join our agency, but that federal funding is not yet certain.

For character two, uh, for the county general fund, there was an increase in fleet chargebacks.

Uh that was the only increase there.

And those are used obviously for vehicle supplies and gasoline.

Um and then for the federal grants fund within character two, um, those are crucial to purchase supplies we use routinely for uh DNA testing.

Um if grant awards are for less money or we don't hear back, uh we may not have sufficient funding for supplies for 2026.

In character three, uh, for county general, there are increases in our ISA and building authority chargebacks for 2026, and that constitutes the increase there.

And the federal grants fund for character three, uh, we primarily use those funds for expert vendors to perform preventative maintenance on our scientific instrumentation, and we anticipate a decrease in funds available for that purpose from federal grants next year.

In character four, in the county cumulative capital improvement fund, there was no change.

So uh it's still 259,500.

Uh we use that to purchase the instrumentation I was talking about earlier.

And then for federal grants, uh we anticipate a reduction in available funds for purchases of new scientific instrumentation in 2026.

Uh we're grateful for the opportunity to speak with you this evening.

We're honored to continue to serve uh the citizens of Marion County, and at this time I can uh happy to turn over things to Chairman Robinson for questions.

Appreciate you.

Thank you so much for your presentation, all of you for presenting tonight on our final budget hearing for tonight.

Comments or questions for the uh for the leader Maori.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Uh I just want to go back on a comment I believe you made earlier uh about going back to see if the case has been adjudicated and if you still need to work on the case.

Is that what I did I understand that right?

Yes.

Okay.

Is there to me it seems like there should be some sort of way to alert you folks if it's been adjudicated, so you know you're not just wasting your time working on a case that's already over.

Is that not happening?

No.

Who's that lie with that there?

Because someone should be telling talking to you guys here doing all the hard work here and uh figuring out you know all these things with forensic science side of it.

Who's where's the ball?

Where's the miss here that there's not communication?

I I think it's it's a multi-layer problem.

You know, I could point the finger at multiple, I could say the detective, I could say the prosecutor, you know, whoever.

But it's a I all I can say it's a multi-layer problem.

There is no line of communication like that.

Gosh, okay.

Well, I certainly appreciate that.

I think it would be certainly beneficial for you to know so you're not wasting your time and resources on something that's already completed.

Um so hopefully when the prosecutor comes, maybe he has a better idea as to why he's not in contact with you folks to make sure that your efforts are really driven in the way they should be and not just you know wasted time on things that are already over.

So I appreciate that.

Thank you.

Appreciate that.

Thank you.

Thank you, leader.

Counselor Boots.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Um, and thank you, sir, for your presentation this evening.

Uh, just a quick question.

And not that I've heard this is an issue, but I know it's commonly a question.

Uh, is there the backlog on rape kits?

Has that been addressed?

Is it still a problem?

Is it been taken care of?

No, as far as the backlog goes, every law enforcement agency in Marion County has their own individual backlog.

Um we only have the backlog that they submit to us.

And so this I don't know what the number looks like.

You know, if we you IMPD obviously being our main our biggest contributor, I don't know what their number is.

Uh, but I can tell you that there definitely is a large number.

And maybe as some background to give us a better context, explain what you mean by these different agencies will develop a rape kit.

It wouldn't they and who do who does that rape kit go to determine yes, this was an illegal criminal rape, or it was not, or I'm just a little, I'm not clear on what you just told us.

So what happens is when the uh the victim goes to the hospital and a rape kit is they agreed to have it processed, and they either say, I I want to be reporter, I want to report, or I don't want to be reporter, and usually whatever jurisdiction that was in at the time they were violated, that then that sane, they call it the same nurse, sexual assault nurse, they will contact the law enforcement contact eight each agency has a contact person, and they will contact that law enforcement agency contact, and then they have I think it might start shortly, they have like 48 hours to go pick it up.

Okay, all right.

Um but does your office who does the technical examination or or in or the biological testing of a rape kit?

That would be our DNA unit.

Okay, so that is your office.

Yes.

And do all kits eventually come to your office for each agency then has similar DNA testing capability to test these rape kits, then no, I mean if they're not testing them, then where are they going?

I IEPD has with a grant, and they're contracted, I believe, with Bodie, which is a private DNA laboratory, and they send some of their kits to this to Bodie, and and then where the other kits they just lie at the at the agency uh wherever they store them.

I guess the final question would be does the passage of time invalidate the rape kit?

Meaning it you no need to test it after 10 years because whatever was in it has dissipated.

No, I I don't think that's the case.

Okay.

All right, thank you, sir.

Thank you, counselor.

Additional comments, Council Hart.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair, and thank you for the presentation.

Uh it was very very thorough and thoughtful.

Uh, I guess just uh ask a similar question as it is in the the Madam Corner.

Um you mentioned some uh struggles with hiring as well to fulfill some diversity needs um with the proposal I have out there, not tonight, but just in general.

Uh is that something you think would help your agency if uh there was no residency requirement for individuals reporting to your organization that they did not have to live in Marion County.

I appreciate your question.

Since I became the director in 2021, I have tried twice to get forensic scientists class as not as an exempt class because we have such a difficulty, especially in the DNA environment, the firearms environment, getting uh candidates that can do the job.

I'll give you an example because I actually started out my my early years on firearms.

Firearms examiners are extremely hard to get.

And once you're trained, you can go anywhere in the world, and they'll pay you crazy money to do it.

And trying to get a tr a trained firearms examiner is extremely difficult, like I said.

So that which means most of the times we have to hire somebody that's not trained, and it takes two years to train one.

And like I said earlier, you train one and you have to have a trainer.

So long story short, yes, it would be really great for our agency.

Um like I said, I've tried for two years.

I've had the same avenue that Alfie spoke about where I could write the letter and try to get someone exempt, and then and they say it's on a case by case basis.

I have no idea what the how they define case by case.

So yeah, long story short, yes.

All right, thank you, sir.

All right, thank you, sir.

And then this may be really difficult to answer just because it's a numbers question, but um, you know, you mentioned the time that it's gonna take to train somebody that sunken cost, you know, it's two years of I don't even know what that number would be, but uh you know, some of the concern I hear is that you know the folks wouldn't live in the in the our county, so their their county income tax would go to another county.

Do you believe that, or maybe if the COM against it's hard to answer, the sunken cost of that employee and the training, the two years that it takes to train them is greater than the amount of county income tax lost in the county?

I feel it is I feel like the what they're giving to the community, the current the criminal justice system outweighs that.

Wonderful.

Thank you, sir.

Big leader heart, Counselor Perkins.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Uh thank you for your presentation.

Um, a statement and a question.

Um statement is Marion County's open.

We'd love to have new residents.

Um we would love to have folks to move into Marion County uh to help us with property tax and income tax.

And so as we are recruiting, just let folks know we are open for business and would love to have them to live here.

Um my question for you is um I'm thinking about just uh the advances that we have made in technology just in terms of you know vehicle identification, right?

If something happens to my car right now, it triggers something on my phone, I know exactly where it is and what's going on, right?

What are you seeing in terms of um advances in technology in regards to firearms, right?

It still puzzles me that something can happen, somebody can use a gun, we cannot identify where, who, when what are you seeing from your perspective in terms of uh technology advancement in terms of identifying firearms?

Yeah, I mean, there's there's a lot of novel things that they've been trying to do, you know, like electronics within the firearm itself, and someone has to have a bracelet on that basically engages the firearm, and if you don't have the that engagement, then the firearm is basically locks up.

Uh there's been uh even to the point of like putting the serial number of the gun on the tip of the firing pen so that when a cartridge is fired, the theory is that the serial number will be on the cartridge case.

Doesn't really work as good as the theory, and because things wear, so that it eventually wears off, or they take it off, or something like that.

But firearms really honestly, there's there's not really a lot of technology like you're like you're thinking of as far as IT or you know, AI and all that.

There it they're just not.

It's it's a tool, no different than a screwdriver, it's just a tool.

Thank you for that.

I use the example of my car, but I also use the example of my phone.

I leave it somewhere I can track it exactly where it is, right?

So as we think about I I know, you know, uh just seeming the coroner's office before looking at the number of individuals that have died from gunshot wounds.

Um, that is something that as a state um I I think that we struggle with, and and I just was wondering around the technology that's that's available.

One we know the technology is available, is whether or not the manufacturers want to really utilize it.

So thank you.

Right.

Thank you, Australia.

Council Boots.

Thank you, Mr.

Amberger.

Just a quick comment.

Um, I understand uh you've tried to get exempt.

You're have you tried on a uh when you mentioned case-by-case basis.

I know the procedure, at least in the legal field, is uh a person of uh skill, a skill set that's kind of the general category, a special skill set that in have you tried to do it that way, like you have a person, a candidate apply to the mayor's office.

I know there's one particular person who reviews those applications and says, yes, this person qualifies, they can live outside Marion County, or no, they cannot.

Have you done that or just a general letter trying to get a broader exemption?

Well, I can use myself as an example.

I came here in 2007.

I worked for the Illinois State Police, and and firearms examiner, if anybody remembers around 2006, there was a court ruling that said I don't care what you have to pay, get them, because they were down to like two examiners or something like that.

And three Illinois firearms examiners came here, I was one of them.

And so I have tried, like I've I've been successful for a couple, two or three people.

Mostly they're all farms examiners, um, because the uh the budget book does say in their specialized skill set.

Hey, I really want to live outside.

I want land, I want you know, for their own personal reasons.

Or I'll give you another example.

A couple years two or three years ago, we were trying to hire DNA technical leader.

It is an extremely important position because the FBI uh has we have our own accreditation, but then the FBI has its little layer of the cake of accreditation, and a DNA technical leader can literally shut down the DNA unit.

And our DNA technical leader at the time, because again, you could go anywhere.

She left and went to Florida and lives on a beach now and works for our sheriff's department doing exactly that.

We tried then, and I asked them to put something in there because there were some people that thought they were wavering one way or another.

But when they knew that I they had to be hired first for me to submit a letter, they said no.

Okay.

Thank you, sir.

Thank you, Council.

District Comments and Questions.

Any one of you want us to speak to this presentation?

Seeing none, thank you, sir.

Thank you.

Appreciate it.

Thank you all.

Cynthia Allen, ladies and gentlemen, we are adjourned.