Okay, we're getting ready to start here in about uh 30 seconds.

All right, I didn't I didn't realize that Gavel would be so powerful.

I'll have to start off the banging it more often when I need when I want tension.

Um welcome um to the January meeting of the environmental sustainability committee.

Um very excited to see so many people here.

I'm gonna spend a few minutes and a second sort of setting the stage and talking about this committee and what it is uh we do and um teeing up uh our speakers uh for the night.

But before I do that, let me um ask the members.

We have both members of the committee and guests here tonight.

I'm gonna ask them to introduce themselves all at the same time.

But as we go along, if you could uh just uh note if you're a member of the committee or uh if you're a guest tonight, and I'll start right over here with Councilor Bain.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, Josh Bain, representing District 21 on the far southwest side here as a guest counselor tonight.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Uh Councilman Ron Gibson, uh District 8, and I am a guest tonight.

Thank you, Mr.

Vice President Maggie Lewis, District 5, and I'm a guest.

Thank you, Mr.

Vice President Renee Allen, District 15, and I am a guest.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Michael Paul Hart, representing District 20, and I'm a committee member.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair, Jesse Brown, uh, District 13 on the nearest side, and I am also a committee member.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair Nick Roberts, district four, and I'm a committee member as well.

Um thank you, Mr.

Vice President.

I am Brienne Delaney from District 2 on the North Side, and I am also a committee member.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Good evening, all Dr.

Carlos Perkins, uh District 6.

Um I'm also committed member.

Good evening, Mr.

Vice President Andy Nielsen, District 14, committee member.

Thank you to the members of the committee and our guests.

It's great to have so many counselors here interested in this topic.

Thanks to so many people braving the cold today as I headed down for the meeting.

I think uh my phone said it was about 11 degrees.

So thanks for your commitment to uh Indianapolis and public policy.

Let me spend just a second um talking about this committee uh for folks who haven't attended before or don't know the background.

So the environmental sustainability uh committee, what we do is focus on complex long-term public policy issues that affect the health sustainability and resilience of our city.

Um what we do in this committee is we spend a lot of time wrestling with big public policy issues.

Um a lot of times when you're on the council, you get issues that come to you and um they come through the committee process, and that's where you kind of work things out.

But in that case, you already have a proposal that you're dealing with.

Um but when it comes to this issue uh the issues around the environment and sustainability, there's so much complexity and there's so much to learn and so much to understand that we have really taken the stance in this committee that we want to spend time digging into issues and sort of going through a process where we along with the public side by side, we really work things through.

And so we've had multi-meeting discussions in the past.

We had a three or four meeting series on recycling where we really dug into recycling very deeply, uh, looked at what other cities do, looked at the process of recycling, how it um really uh supports employment uh around the state, and how in fact we have to uh import uh some recycling uh for some of our employers in the in this uh city in the state when if we did a better job recycling, we could be um much more effective at both recycling and supporting uh jobs.

We looked at urban forestry, we looked at green space, we've looked at environmental justice, and then um an example of what comes next is for example, right now there's a um pilot running at Eagle Creek um park looking at carbon capture and if we could use carbon capture as a more effective way of uh both preserving um forests in our city but also capturing a little bit of of dollars for our parks from the from the uh from that market.

So all of these just give a little plug for all those meetings, all those topics and all those meetings are available online.

Um the reason why we want to dig into that and spend time on it is A, to educate the counselors so they have more depth of knowledge, and um to give information to folks in in the community so they have more depth of knowledge, and so we can sort of work through this public policy discussion together.

Um, data centers is what we're here for tonight.

Ton's meeting is part of an ongoing effort to inform both the council members and the public at large about data centers.

As we all know, and I think why we're all here, the rapid growth of computing demand driven by internet services more broadly and AI in particular has led to a nationwide expansion of data centers.

This growth has raised significant concerns, especially related to the environmental impacts, energy use, and long-term sustainability.

One of the things we'll hear about from our speakers tonight is like the data centers.

But as you sort of scratch the surface and really dig into data centers, you're also find out that some of our largest employers have maintained production that is technically a data center, like uh Salesforce, for example, they do all their work in the cloud and they have racks and racks of servers right now where they're and they have for decades.

And so is that a data center uh uh versus a um a hyperscale one that I think folks have the most or there's the most awareness about right now.

So we really have to think these things through very carefully and really wrestle with this public policy issue.

So, because of these uh issues that people have concerns about, and I in particular have been vocal about the the water issue uh concerns me.

Um, we want to make sure that the city develops an approach to reviewing data center proposals that is informed, transparent, and guided by public input.

It is also important that we as elected officials take the time to deeply understand what data centers are and just as importantly how they differ.

Um, as I mentioned before, there's these hyperscale ones and there are smaller ones.

Uh we need to uh really dig into them and figure out when you're regulating them, we need to do it the right way.

So our focus today is to be very intentional and focus on building a shared understanding of what these things are, what the public policy concerns are, and what the potential options are for how we can regulate them and how we can manage them.

Um to help us do that today, we're going to um have a couple uh speakers.

And um uh I've really throughout the years of running this committee, um, we really rely heavily and work closely with the Office of Sustainability.

So I I went to the um city's Office of Sustainability and said, listen, we have to get more comp we have to get more intentional public policy and structures around these things so we have some confidence in how we're addressing them.

We really need to make sure that we have a public a decision a decision-making process that is um thoughtful and rational, and one that is guided by the public and one that really protects our resources when it comes to the environment, and one that is um making sure that it's equitable in how it's approached, but we don't have that at all.

Like right now, these things aren't defined in Marion County.

Um we don't have a structure around making decisions, and that's why you've seen sort of all these um issues come to a head when it goes to the MDC and we're dealing with zoning, right?

So we need to have more confidence in how we as a city are going to address these issues, and that means we need to have a rational, thoughtful, intentional, and durable um uh regulatory process.

Um you may have noticed that I've had uh 20 plus years working in regulatory issues um in Indiana, and it's uh something I think about a lot in making sure that you have a reliable uh government that does things in the public interest and does so transparently is really important to me, but we only get there by wrestling with these issues and listening to the public and coming up with solutions.

So that's what we're doing today.

As I mentioned, more closely with the Office of Sustainability.

They answered my call to help me figure out how to how to proceed, and how we're gonna proceed tonight is have two presentations.

Um is I'll I'm gonna turn it over to the director actually to to uh uh tee up the first presenters.

Um our second presenters um are from the Hoosier Environmental Council, and I appreciate them they're here in person.

Um but our first two presenters are from um national organizations who have been uh sharing information with the city, and they are gonna be virtually online, and I'm gonna turn it over to the director of the Office of Sustainability to uh introduce them and to walk us through uh what they'll be talking about.

Thank you so much, Councilman.

I'm Mo McReynolds, I'm the director of the Office of Sustainability.

And in our work, uh as this topic has become more and more relevant to the work that our office does for the city, especially toward a pursuing a carbon neutral goal that is echoed in Thrive Indianapolis.

We sought to educate ourselves around what data centers are.

Our office is for people.

We are often saying we are experts of nothing and Jackson drills of many trades.

And so we have to rely on national experts to bring us into common knowledge or best practices when it comes to these large-scale issues.

So that just so happened to coincide with an engagement we had uh with an organization that was previously known as the National Renewable Energies Laboratory, is now known as the National Laboratory of the Rockies, and then a sister organization called the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory.

And so you were doing a great job of introducing, but I made a mistake, so give me one, let me pause you for one brief moment.

We do have public comment programmed at the end.

Um if you want to um participate in public comment, please sign in.

There's a sign-in form at the podium.

Um and just just a reminder there's no particular matters before us tonight, so it's just educational.

So we don't we're not making any decisions tonight.

So there's no specific uh ordinance to comment on, but you're welcome to comment on um what we're learning in general and and your thoughts on on data centers.

But the the sign-up form is is is is right there, and that'll be the the last item on the agenda.

Okay, sorry, Joe.

Sorry, Matt.

Sounds good.

Okay, so now I can introduce my colleagues and I will have them synced to our monitors up here, both in uh, especially if my technical expertise will hold out for me.

I'm gonna introduce my colleagues Drazenka Zadu Vidruzit, excuse me, Drezenka, and then Eric Anderson from respectively uh National Lab Laboratory of the Rockies and Pacific Northwest National Laboratory.

Okay.

We are can you all test uh your sound real quick?

Eric Drasenka, can we hear you?

I cannot hear them at all.

Uh Councilman, would you like to skip ahead in our agenda?

Sure.

Um data centers, am I right?

So oh wait, here they are.

If they're ready to go, we'll go ahead and go ahead.

I'm concerned about the I'm concerned about the sound.

Okay.

Let's give it one more minute.

See if you can get it.

Otherwise, we'll go to we'll we'll make a quick adjustment to uh HEC.

Yeah.

Eric, do you think you could dial in?

Well, while you're figuring that, we're gonna if we go ahead and adjust to there we go, we've got him.

Yep, we sure can.

And if you wouldn't mind to speak extra loud, that would be great.

Okay, cool.

Uh yes.

Okay.

I gotcha.

All right, Eric Ready when you are.

Okay, sure.

I'm I'm projecting the slides.

Oh, okay, great.

Uh everyone here now.

Uh and here they're national laboratory.

Uh they're engaged in their office.

Uh and you know, as an idiot.

Uh next slide.

And here's the I got you.

Okay, here.

Okay, so yeah, so just for today, uh, we're gonna be going through an introduction as to you know what the people we are, uh, what this program is, what we're doing for you guys, uh, and then also the center impacts, uh, and then we'll do greater packs and tax, and then we're going to go to the rest of the policy landscape, and I don't think we're all the presentation, so we're gonna have airspeed questions afterwards, uh, maybe uh just so that we can have time to answer those questions.

Uh but uh kind of explain the program a bit more and how to explain that uh introductions, so I can think you would take away for that.

Um first of all, I thank you.

I hope you cannot see a room.

But uh I would like to start with thank you more and with the control officers and join for the invitation and opportunities to tell me a little bit about energy communities, extra virtual program or see.

So my name is Ankha, I'm a senior scientist, and then there's some other material roads, and we are looking at basic goal to see the action.

So we need to see uh is that it's article funding program and being as long as we need to pinform.

Uh the short term technical systems include local governments, not from this community organization, don't use cools, and so on.

So for where the logic community is very small.

So the way it works is very simple.

So we might do sensitivities and the connector with the subject center and experience from the network when there's no other as a name, for example.

And those express can officers would be specific needs and questions.

So far, we've already wanted 400 communities across the uh counting, and these requests are from 60 hours of the big uh subsconnected basic class.

So on the slides uh can have a quick snapshot on how you can be entered systems.

Uh we look at the draft control and areas like um uh generations point based on your thing.

So there is very well being file program.

And this is so the specifically scale based on human analysis, uh, or economic analysis.

Uh I heard about the recently belongs to the tool to uh communities can use the public uh investment for some and so on.

We also provide big developments of workforce development education, according to the energy security, and even so first we uh those who are five very quantitative because community is different as different and your assistance to their specific priorities, posting timeline, and so on.

I'll everybody give you more information about this specific question.

Um explain the library and how we're gonna go here.

Sorry, I think it was uh things like that.

Uh so the ESC Micropath program in the Indianapolis office data sustainability have to go into the technical assistance request.

So just to bring it down to you guys where both of the specific requests are, uh the first one we have information on how data centers may affect uh the grid and the life of reliability and rates as well.

Uh that's what we provide effective, data makes context to import this understanding of potential impacts and trade-offs, and followed by identifying metrics and analytical frameworks that we used to evaluate data center impacts parts and playmates because I think we're concerned.

And then the last uh whole point here is supporting case that maybe options and consideration that stakeholder perspective, or whatever, and we need to take out.

Um so if uh next slide, we'll get into a great point uh data center one.

Uh just the technical baseline, so that's what we can kind of like understand uh what is the environment work and why uh a big thing is.

So basically data centers are locations and organizations used to support infrastructure and data, and it aggregates like 3D single statement location for the sake of efficiency.

And this is representative away from individual businesses and managing their own infrastructure, which helped it used to be done.

And data centers can contain a kind of equipment, not only to router servers, which is all the things that people want here to be in and water as well in the data center.

And they are the physical backbone for the computing intensive services, which is AI, which there is a sharp increase of deployment and interest in over the past year, especially at the federal level and the state level, there's no logic in AI, which is coincided with uh an increase in data centers as well.

Next slide.

Okay, so on this slide, we're gonna hit the some of the impacts of data centers, specifically grid impacts.

So as a lot of people know data centers are extremely energy-intensive facilities, and they've already been putting a long grid with increased demand.

Uh increased data center complaint to encourage the revival of age and future power plants to meet that demand.

Uh and a lot of these plants cost more operating effects they're old, uh, they're inefficient because of the age of the fact that they're very old and kind of nearly at the end of your slide.

Um, and that's where the thing slides are 60% of oil and gas, uh, oil gas and coal power plants for retirement, cancel those plans this year, the DJM and the VM interaction.

So that's the very land, Virginia area, and other quite the northeast, but area of the country.

And most of those plants work here.

And for people that don't know, speakers are powerless that are only used during uh periods of excess demand.

So essentially you have uh, you know, we all wake up at early in the morning, get ready to work, the work they have in the very old days previously and how much electricity we're all using, so these things get turned on so that we can keep that demand, and so you can make sure we can work in black outs or anything like that.

And again, if you're sufficiently operated support, the inside and increases associated with the electrication and blackouts that make sure that our baseline going down and has electricity and the uh things operate smoothly, but it's kind of usually that much like risk, we do have large energy draw on the reserves that we have, um, because obviously these things again expensive operating their whole thing, they're not exact, they're not new, so things are ideal there.

Uh, so we just need to be uh kind of thinking about the energy off people have how it might impact uh the overall consumption and the overall impacts on great infrastructure.

Uh next slide, please.

Okay, so this slide gives a bit of an idea of how much demand is under present now in the future.

Uh so data centers are objected to increase their emission or active.

Uh and they could increase their use nationwide as high as 3%, five size three times by 2028, 12% of demand.

Um right here we have a plot that is actually from a 2024 report on US data center energy use by another one of the National Laboratory L.

Um as you can see in 2023, they've got 4% of the US's uh energy consumption.

Uh the well estimate is 288 is just under 7%.

Uh and if you look at the high inflation of 228, we're getting 12%.

So regardless of if you get the low explanation, the highest division or somewhere in between uh data center because the energy consumption is going to increase moving slow waste rates and on rates and the straight on grid.

Um next slide, please.

Okay, so another really big data data center impact is how they have four years or how the highway is the demand increases uh required to appoint up data center as I mentioned, so they're very energy intensive, and that requires a lot of extra infrastructure to support that.

Uh, still means we need to rapidly expand their infrastructure for the keep up.

Uh, and that I think uh usures of the utility appropriate capital costs into proposed rates that have to be proved by GCO that at least they're technical.

Um, not proper cluster protection, cost shifting occur, we use repairs, subsidizing the infrastructure, primarily built certain data centers and apples or most and occur in a lot of different ways.

Um, that's what this year which you can only special contracts offered by utilities like the loader, the price paid to a facility, uh what it would cost us to actually serve the facility for one.

Taking advantage of some gaps in federal and state regulations for applying transition costs because as this is a very new area, there's a lot of back and forth about how to address this very large draw on the SCA.

So there's not very much a few gaps that can be exploited there.

And then also co-locating the baseball power depends on the delivery costs.

So for example, if you were to put it in very close, right next to a car plant, for example, uh the delivery rate where they would get would be less than delivery rates that they would pay if they were placed further away.

And these are all just a few ways that data centers be kind of cost-shared uh backbox of the capital uh investment for supporting them, constantly.

Uh next other who's okay.

So for the purpose of this study super quickly, uh we took a look at the data center constantly.

Uh so many of the policies on the regular data center development are brought in sustainable.

Uh this is kind of due to increased interest in technology benefit of industry to build data centers.

That is like several states adopting intended to encourage local development.

Uh and so this is a R study, uh the legislation was split into following categories.

We've got tax incentives, new rate classes, other reactions, not including rate classes, in action, uh reporting requirements, and other categories that include limit school electricity and model study bench or requirement guidelines, other kind of one-off policies that uh that we don't have of kind of an example of three multiple of those existing, so we just kind of lump them into another category uh to show that there is going on there.

Um, so on this slide we can see that for the purpose of the study, you want to say all the policies that are filed, and 44 uh uh 44 of those policies actually pass the legislation.

Uh there are any policies reviewed, uh reviewed were proposed in the 2024, 2025, so legislative sessions, so they're very recent, uh, but they also need to use that were either rejected or they're still in some sort of limbo state where they have to pass or rejected uh and they're still going to win decision, or if they're just going to sit there.

Um policies were passed in the past year, in 2025, that's better below.

And this point coincides in the increasing uh of data center deployment and interest and infrastructure for AI.

So again, if you look at the bottom graph here, which show you the number of policy passes each year in what we examine.

So 2013 and 2018 down there at the bottom, we have one policy each year while we examine.

Uh, but if you go into the like you know, early 1220s, uh up into the mid-2020s, you have the whole SpaceX 7 and then also 23 policies in 2025 that were passed.

Uh so that just kind of shows that there's no lot of features at the legislative level in uh again, people involved in uh regulating around data centers, and people kind of have a little manner, kind of trying to figure out how they're going to deal with this right and energy drawing factory and they have to other people.

Um next slide, please.

Okay, so this five chart uh kind of showed us a breakdown of um policies, uh all 61 kind of examination.

So on the left here, we have this all 61 policies, as you can see, the majority of those policies are tax incentives.

Um this is as of December 125, so I did go through uh and just check pushes that pass, which had uh passed and should be filing.

Um these are tax incentive, and then the remainder of the ones that were passed uh kind of you know fall to the reporting requirements, rate other reactions, uh, rate report and the other categories, but even for even if you told all the stuff there's still around any of those policies because there are tax incentives, and that's kind of fit the pattern uh obstacles very recently with tax incentives kind of dominate this area uh and a lot of the states are proposed taxes that is kind of multiple.

Um but if you look on the right side here, and what we have uh you kind of see a shift in that kind of uh pattern in the test that so everything here is proposed and rejected uh the 17 policies here, and as I mentioned earlier, you'll see the policies that's only four, so there's only five legislative sections.

Um sessions, uh so you have about data that were rejected, uh, but if you look at the ones that were as of this at the point of last check uh proposed, the majority of them are not tax incentive.

The majority of them are not taxes, but then so there's only two factors on it, but there are four, you know, reporting requirements, two that were other reactions, one degree class, then that kind of shows the shift away from this just kind of uh pulling up the data centers into uh little areas and kind of people trying to figure out okay, but how do we make sure that uh we're making this sort of making sure that uh people aren't into the hard way isn't being damaged or that's the required power reliability.

Um so that kind of away from the previous third time just being locked attacked in settings and how much of anything else uh again this is kind of the disability of that.

So again, most of the existing basis of how the policies that are passed are taxed, and you know what the goal of maybe for character developers in all the states as well, we say, but as a certain version of grid and regular in fact, more policy is the remote outside of tax incentives.

Um here only 10%, only 10 of the policy that are passed in 25 words.

Uh and it's also important to know that uh most of the proposed policies that are file uh focused on reporting requirements.

So a lot of lots of data sort of doing is eventually tax incentives and based on the frequency events of just the tax incidents of the same.

But uh kind of what was coming to happen is actually we need to fulfill these reporting requirements in order to receive the benefits from the tax essentials.

Uh so there that's been kind of a new kind of way that they're trying to deal with things is finding the tax incentive to reporting to the next standards, so that data center is not just about building uh infrastructure and just doing that and not only have like cable reporting or keeping up with promises for you.

Uh so the reporting hard to have to ensure that that really should uh use the function that is such as based on the work, for example.

It is still important though to know that uh active settings are still category of any of these.

So that's very policies that uh are not active on this, it's still a kind of uh trigger report of different policy types like uh requirements, other reaction rate classes.

None of them are in, there's not an end of URA classes and those.

Uh so you know, they still wanna be active in this individual category, but there are other uh legislative types that have been tied to those to ensure that those are tied uh to making sure that there's area and the grid are uh kind of prioritized for any sort of uh damage that they occur uh use.

Yeah, Eric, and so we just have our last slide showing the geographical distribute distribution of the policies that we analyzed in our literature review.

Thank you so much for your presentation.

If there's a few questions from the council members for Eric and Drazenka, we can take those at this time, otherwise we can move on with our agenda.

Can uh Eric, can you hear me or do we need to have a I can I can repeat it if he can't?

So I I I will ask, I will ask questions.

We'll take a couple questions because of the complexity of our virtual um with these folks.

Let's just take a couple questions um and we'll have Mo repeat it to avoid the complexity of this for our folks here and watching at home.

We'll just do a couple questions.

But A, thank you very much for your work with the city.

You don't need to repeat all that.

But the um my question is one of the things I keep getting asked about is especially with the hyperscale um data centers with the rate of improvement in technology.

Um is the need for these uh large centers as will they will that will the need continue to be as big um in the future?

Meaning, are we over saturating ourselves with um the amount of um data centers that we're building because the rate of the technology and the rate of the efficiency is going to keep getting bigger?

And so will we be doing all of this um uh in building at a level that we don't actually need uh eventually.

That's that's less than elegant, but I think you know what I mean.

Okay.

Yeah, so I agree.

I think so.

There is the thing about the defense pipeline is that a line is perspective or what the decision reporting they're doing, uh development reporting they're doing and building.

So even the projection of cells aren't uh the reason, for example, isn't it just between you know that you can six percent and supposedly maybe 12% is that a lot of that is perspective, but we don't actually know how many things we're gonna be deploying.

Um similarly the same thing actually know again.

It's hard to participate what we need with developing as quickly and change as they are changing related as they are.

And I think I almost get information about this subject every day almost.

Yeah, so it's very hard to actually pay it out what the check is like that why we get in there.

Um I hesitate to answer that question to the end of the information, I'm sorry, but uh we would say that I expect development to continue at a free every reason to be this.

Okay, I mean, and just so folks at home and folks in the room sort of uh understand that just the the question the the genesis of my question is are we building so many of these in a speculative way that we may not actually need, and then is that are we putting risk into our communities that may not actually benefit the community at all?

That's the genesis of the question.

I think the response was um it's really hard to know what the computing power that these uh tech companies are are looking for is gonna be and the rate of efficiency improvement.

So he doesn't have the doesn't have the information to be able to respond.

That's right.

And if I may add, from the regulatory standpoint, cities and states like ours, as we've shown in tonight's presentations, are dealing with this as we go.

We're all dealing with it at exactly the same time.

Okay, let's we have like let's just do two more just because of the challenges associated with this, but we have a lot of questions, though.

So let's go to Perkins and then I'll put a name after that.

Uh thank you, uh Mr.

Chairman.

Uh question about uh really a definition.

Um do we have a clear and comprehensive definition of what a data center is?

Eric, how do you feel about that question?

Yeah.

I mean, I I so there's the the one slide that kind of go over what they are, but there's also like so for example, we are here at the goal, they're intermediate data centers.

Um there's also smaller data centers as well.

So we can define them by what they do, but there's also uh the actual capacity, like the energy control that they have, and that's also sometimes as well as separate categorization uh that people use.

So I would say that in terms of what they do and the actual or what they've already structured, uh that's of course you know our data needs like that the first piece and the next piece we're gonna be how big is the data center also uh that would be that we sort of for further categorization, I would say, of early centers.

Yeah, and if I may add, counselor, I as to Eric's point, I don't know that we're gonna be able to lump them all into one category ever either.

There may be scales that we can, you know, a small, medium, large, for example, um, where we're able to finally categorize these things into in whatever the city chooses uh in how to evaluate them.

Can I just ask a quick follow-up?

Is that all right?

Um would it be helpful, and I think you you alluded to this Mo that we consider uh the definition of a data center um to really capture this scale, energy use, water consumption, and land use impact.

Would that be fair for us to consider as a as a part of a comprehensive definition?

I think it's a good consideration uh in terms of so for example, again, it's like I mentioned a lot of things are kind of doing the uh reporting requirement legislation as kind of uh being new this is actually receiving any sort of benefits from taxis settings.

So the using scale uh in terms of like, for example, actually to the help with categorizing things and making sure that you're you know you want to hyperscale a place that you report on something are the next OC uh and it is quality with you would less than the uh report things associated with it, but I would think that the scale and active investor to go by the way that they have to say Councilor Bain.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, and thank you, Eric, for the presentation.

Going to the policies and everything that you have observed, you know, I I think at least speak for myself, and I think I probably speak for everyone else here is the you know, one of our number one priorities is protecting ratepayers and making sure that the costs, the energy costs for data centers does not get passed on to them.

That includes you know their generation, their transmission as well.

Have you seen across the country maybe it's a state or local community successful policies or successful initiatives where states uh and communities have actually used data centers to pay for upgraded infrastructure costs because over the past several years in Indiana, three quarters of our rising utility bills are directly because of needed grid improvements.

And so obviously we're gonna need to do additional grid improvements whether we you know see data centers coming or not.

Can data centers ever be a tool for improving our electric grid?

That's a good question.

So there is a lot of stuff says that a lot of these policies are very well past year.

Um the school of clock line adding a rate cost for data centers.

The cost of half law is all uh consider any correct or SSP and saying that we have a or burger base.

Um cost or each other's other questions that I have that question very well.

I I um am getting word that no one at home can hear our presenter, so I can see there's a lot of questions, folks, and I'm I'm sorry that our IT is causing us some challenges.

So I am gonna move on to our friends from HEC so we can uh get past the the uh the um connectivity problems and we can have control of the presentation in the room.

So um I let me let me close though by thanking our presenters.

It's always a challenge to do these uh remotely, especially doing a live um a live meeting.

Um but we pulled it off and we really appreciate uh all the information and I think the questions helped clarify a few points.

And I'm guessing that um uh um the director of McReynolds will be happy to facilitate any questions that counselors have um back to back to our experts.

Um so just follow up with her with her directly.

Um but with that, let me just go to our uh next presenters from uh the Hoosier Environmental Council who um, and just by way of background, if you don't know, under the previous um director, um I worked uh with him very carefully to create this committee in the first place.

Um but he's he's moved on to other things, and um uh the organization lives on as a very strong um advocate for the environment um in in Indiana and uh a real um reliable uh entrusted policy partner.

So I'm gonna turn it over uh to you, Rebecca, to uh introduce yourself and the organization and your partner and and to get started.

Thank you so much, Mr.

Chairman, members of the committee, counselors, and members of the public.

Uh my name is Rebecca Tacolstein, it's a great honor to be here today, so thank you for having us.

Um I'm the Climate and Energy Senior Advisor at Hoosier Environmental Council, and I'm joined today um by my colleague Shannon Anderson, who's the director of advocacy for Earth Charter Indiana.

Um so we wanted to come and speak to you a little bit about the environment here in Indiana and some of the things that we might consider as uh we think about what data centers look like here in the city of Indianapolis and whether they're a net benefit or not to our public.

Next slide.

Please thank you.

Um so when we're thinking about uh the policy context here in Indiana, um, what Eric said uh is is really relevant here.

The the the kinds of policies that he was speaking to that are being passed to incentivize data center development, those are those are what we're seeing here in the state.

Right now we have uh a sales tax exemption statewide for data centers, which means that you pay for a sales tax on your utility consumption, but the data center doesn't.

Um it also we also have a property tax exemption um that is at the discretion of local governments, and as of last year, um SEA one uh authorized a uh removal of the depreciation cap, which means that uh these data centers can come in and after you know one year say that their or three years say that their servers are worth zero dollars and sort of uh make it appear that they are not uh bypassing any uh property taxes, they they're those assets are not worth value, and so therefore uh they would not be taxed on them, and that exemption does not apply to them.

Um we also are living in a context where we have very limited statewide guidance on data centers.

Um we are depending very very closely on local governments.

Um we don't have a policy framework at the state level as it relates to siting or zoning, other than uh the discretionary and uh and other sales tax abatements that we see.

Um and we're also living in a climate of significant state and federal deregulation, um, particularly as it relates to pollutants.

Um and so we are seeing at the federal level, coal fire power plants being mandated to stay online.

Um, we're seeing the the EPA and at the state level, I DEM have some of their responsibilities eliminated or reduced, which puts us in a position of being at greater risk to our environment.

And as it relates to utility planning in our state, um, we do have some particular considerations that weigh heavily within the context of data centers.

We're an all sources state.

What that means is that coal, gas, wind, solar, they're all considered equally when we're talking about utility planning.

Um, that means that we end up relying much more heavily on fossil fuels like coal and gas than other states.

We also live in a state where uh utilities are able to pass the cost of fuel based on the market cost of that fuel on to consumers.

Um so when we're talking about the the rising costs of utilities, uh we're gonna see at we are we are seeing, and we'll get to this in a minute, we're seeing um utilities across the state depend on uh gas fire plants in particular to support the their uh data centers, and we are expecting nationally that to be a trend, and as a result, the cost of gas may go up, and that's gonna get passed on directly to our consumers here in Indiana.

I also want to point out a couple of pieces of legislation, uh well, one piece of legislation in particular last year, HB 1007, um it was intended to help us get uh energy assets online more quickly, new power plants and things of that nature.

But one of the things that it did was that it it said that large load users would be required to pay for 80% of their infrastructure costs, which means that if you need a new gas fire power plant for your data center, 20% of that cost could get passed on to residents, and the true impact of that is really unknown at this time, um, because as we've talked about and counselor Barth mentioned earlier, some of these uh data centers might not stay online for their entire projected life.

And so if we build 10 new power plants to support these data centers and then all of them shut down, the only mechanism that the Indiana Utility Regulatory Commission has to pay for those plants that have already been constructed is to pass those costs back to ratepayers.

And so if this turns out to be a big risk, it can fall on ratepayers.

Um and so next slide, please, thank you.

And so we we're in a situation now where these projects are coming online, they are getting approved, um, and there are some known costs that will go through.

And so we're operating today in sort of the wild west uh without it without strong safeguards, without a real understanding from a policy perspective of these impacts.

And so we're recommending that some safeguards get put in place following some of these recommendations very quickly to reduce the risk to health, the environment, and the economic well-being of Indianapolis residents and Hoosers more broadly.

Um this topic is there's a lot of engagement from a community level.

Everybody has heard about data centers, and we recommend that the public be engaged very deeply in this process.

Uh we know that communities like Martindale Brightwood are have been actively involved in opposing data centers.

We know that every single ratepayer in the in the AES footprint is going to be impacted by uh the potential for data centers, and so every single person in Indianapolis is impacted by this, and uh we encourage you to take that um in account meaningfully.

And then uh we want to make sure that everything is explored, whether it's a pause in data center construction or removing discretionary economic incentives or anything else that we can think of that might be uh a way to make sure that these developments are in the best interest of Indianapolis residents before they're approved.

Um, and so we really do want to make sure that that as we are moving forward with whatever framework that the council selects for for data center approval, that it has that um that intention of reducing risk to health, environment, and economic well being and the interests of the public.

And so when we as Hoosier Environmental Council think about data centers in particular, we think about four key considerations: community impact, energy, water, and land use.

And I'm gonna start here with community impact because truly economical work is grounded in people.

And so when we think about can you go two slides forward, please?

Mo, thank you.

When we think about community impact, one of the things that we are facing as a state right now is that there's not a lot of public information about these developments.

Some of you may recall the the 400 plus uh acre data center that was up for a proposal in Franklin Township.

We didn't even find out until a few days before who was the developer behind that project.

And so we are we're facing uh these massive developments with massive impacts on our community water, on our community energy, and we don't even know what the plan is or who's behind them.

And so one of the things that we recommend from a community impact lens is thinking about how do we get that information out to the public more transparently?

Do we need to prohibit NDAs?

Um we also know that communities are best positioned to advocate for their needs before these projects are approved from a zoning perspective from a permitting perspective.

And so it's really important that we engage communities from the start.

Um another aspect of this is that we don't know how long these companies are gonna be in existence.

And so we really do need to think about you know, is this a bubble?

Might some of these companies um go bankrupt before the lifetime of their uh their expected lifetime of their data center.

And so as a result, um, do we do we need to have enforceable public commitments that have some kind of surety bond or some kind of protective mechanism so that if that company does go under that community doesn't face a negative impact.

Um and then, of course, you know, thinking about transparency, not just about the uh sorry, you can go like a few ahead if you want.

We're we're now a few ahead now.

Um, one more, please.

Um we uh not just transparency around uh what the plan is, but also transparency around the benefits that that these data centers are receiving.

Um a lot of these data centers are being cited on places like brownfields, and while that might there might be some appetite for that in terms of like city planning, there's also additional risks there.

Um brownfields are disproportionately in marginalized communities, communities of color, and historically disinvested communities.

Um so we need to pay careful attention to who we are preferencing when we choose the siting of these developments.

Um and then additionally, these brown fields are contaminated sites, and so if we're gonna be digging in these locations, we need to be careful about what contamination we might be digging up.

Um also these locations they'll have significant impact on the local area from a noise perspective, from a light perspective, and so we need to think about things like noise caps, berms, uh setbacks, um, and mitigation for light pollution.

Um, and perhaps the most important thing here as it relates to the community is making sure that the community is really leading this process.

Um, not just coming in and giving some kind of nominal concession to a community, but really letting the community speak in terms of what would be a meaningful uh engagement with their community.

Um another aspect that I wanted to mention here is related to under really understanding what the impact is gonna be before you uh before we do move forward with any kind of project.

So not just from the perspective of what is the community want, but what information is the community making a decision with.

So uh we would recommend uh air pollution modeling and independent community impact studies in advance of any approvals.

Um with that, I'm gonna pass it over to Shannon briefly to talk about energy.

Can you catch the up?

Thank you so much, Chairman, and thank you, counselors, for um listening to some of our suggestions today and letting us talk about some of these key issues.

Um I'm here to talk a little bit about the energy um uh picture of some of these uh data centers.

And um, and so I do kind of want to walk backwards a little bit.

So um Indiana is a uh 11th in states in total energy use per capita, which is pretty high up.

Um our industry and industrial sector is the state's largest energy consuming sector and accounts for almost half of our state center's use.

Um overall, Indiana consumes three times more energy than um we produce, so we're a net energy uh user.

Um and I think that's important framing for this conversation.

Umergy has become an issue and affordability has become an issue that is very, very important this year.

Um, and um we're all struggling, I think, with you know, facing energy affordability issues.

So um knowing that, uh looking at the energy consumption of data centers, and and to some of your questions earlier, it is hard to kind of frame like what is the average size uh consumption wise, electric-wise for a data center.

Um, and it's useful to note that now that the average US data center built in recent years carries around 20 to 100 megawatts of uh critical um load.

Um, and that's the size of roughly of a small power plant.

Um new AI campuses can be much larger, they can be designed for around 100 to 300 megawatts of critical power.

And so you'll hear megawatts used a lot, you'll hear gigawatts used.

Just as a quick primer, um, you know, a thousand megawatts is one gigawatt.

So you hear those numbers turn around.

Um it is important to point out that there are already uh hyperscale data centers in Indiana, and they are using um nearly half of uh this you know power, and that is uh mind-blowing that nearly 45% of our power is already going to AI.

So the Project Rainier, which we've heard a lot about in northwest Indiana, uh, will use 2.2 gigawatts of electricity.

Now that's 2,000 megawatts of power.

Um, and that to compare uh is uh up against just AES's current 3.9 gigawatts of entire generation assets.

So you can see the mismatch here already, starting to be plain.

And to give you some additional comparisons, because I think that that's really important to kind of paint this picture.

Just for reference, AES Eagle Valley gas plant has a nameplate capacity of only 671 megawatts.

Remember, we're talking about hyperscale data centers that could be 100 to 300 megawatts of power.

Um the entire wind farm that we drive through on our way to Chicago, Meadows Lake wind farm, um powers 200,000 Indiana homes.

That entire nameplate capacity is 800 megawatts of power.

So just you know, just to give you kind of some sense of scale here.

I think that's important.

Um, the solar farm at the airport, seven and a half single digits megawatts of power.

So I think that's important um uh perspective to have.

So sorry, can you go back one?

Um so I you know, uh Rebecca mentioned that Indiana isn't all sources state, um, meaning that when we go to the commission, all of these resources are treated equally, solar, wind, gas, and things like that.

Um but some of these have variable fuel costs that she mentioned are passed on to customers, and that's really important to note.

AES is um current plan um is already difficult to square with some of the city's climate goals.

Um adding this additional capacity could put um Indianapolis's climate goals and carbon at risk.

And so I do want to kind of point back to the AES IRP that was filed in November because I think that that is a really useful uh framing for how we discuss this.

AES modeled additional data centers.

They modeled a low medium and high scenario and a no data center scenario, and that's really important because it showed that when we exceed 500 megawatts of power in data center added capacity, which is very easy to do with just one data's large data center, um, they will likely file for a 700 megawatt new gas plant.

Um remember that the existing one they have is is 800.

Um they will also be adding probably that much in battery storage as well and similar similar investments in battery and energy storage.

In the high data scenario, they would add a second gas plan called a peaker plant that um was discussed a little bit earlier.

That is a plant that's only deployed when um demand is peaking or at highest, but these are often the most expensive plants to run and uh to pass those costs on to customers.

So it's especially important to note that data centers require electric capacity at all times.

Um through power outages, peak summer days, winter storm events, floods, infrastructure modifications, their demands are consistent and contractual.

Their backup solutions are often, as we've seen with data set are permit requests with uh existing facilities in Indiana are on-site diesel generators.

And diesel general generators are notoriously dirty, loud.

They have to be tested periodically, which means that you're generating pollutions and carbon dioxide just to run them for tests.

So developers can commission data centers within like a year and a half to two years, but they cannot build electric capacity in that timeline.

Because of turbine delays, supply chain dealing for gas turbines, let alone like the hopefully the pie in the sky SMR technology that could be here, you know, 10 years to never.

There are back their issues with transmission cues and other things that make the supply for electricity much more slow to get to than building these data centers.

So that's important to note as well.

And then we also want to make sure we talk about some of the uh policy solutions that we would like to see here.

Yeah, okay.

So the climate pollution that could jeopardize the city's carbon emissions uh goals.

You can also go back to the ASIRP, and they also modeled what the uh carbon output of adding new gas for data centers would be.

So I I encourage you to check though that plan out too.

Um there is obviously, as I mentioned, because of the demand, there's issues to grid stability when we have peak days.

I think all of us in the city of Indianapolis are not unfamiliar with power outages.

Um and then also as Rebecca mentioned, the increased price to ratepayers as we pass on costs from fuel as well as infrastructure.

Um this can potentially uh leave Hoosers in the dark.

We don't know what will happen.

Um and then we also don't know what will happen with long-term planning for these facilities as they either add capacity to their sites or um uh as uh generation mixes change here in um MIZO service territory.

All right, uh we have two more.

Oh, sorry, we have two more.

Uh, we have about 10 more minutes, so you think we can do that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Absolutely.

Yeah, we have two more policy areas that we're gonna um go through a little bit more quickly, and then uh we will take questions.

Um so as it relates to water, um the core challenge here is that the data centers can use as much water as a small town, whereas it's using the amount of energy many times as a large city when we're talking about those larger scale data centers.

Um, and and so uh a single data center can use as much water as about a town of about 50,000 people, and and there are some new approaches like a closed loop system that is gonna significantly reduce the amount of water that's needed.

Um it's still gonna have that initial large draw, but then it's gonna cycle that water through the system over and over again.

Uh, when that happens, though, it does create new risks.

So while it might not use as much water, it's gonna need additional chemicals to keep bacteria levels low, and there's gonna be additional contaminants within that system that create new risks.

Um as it relates to uh what we're thinking about when we think about the policy solutions to water, uh, we are thinking about water scarcity.

We're thinking about uh again the prices to ratepayers, um, and then uh again with we've seen, for example, um, if we go back to the project about the the leap district, um here in Indianapolis, we're facing a project that's gonna withdraw about 25 million gallons of water, um, about 8 million of those gallons to support a data center every single day.

Um, and so what that does, it that project initially was gonna come out of a different completely different basin, and then at part way through the project, the plan changed, and now it's planned to come out of Eagle Creek.

Um, and so what we're facing as a community is that we didn't know that was gonna happen until the project was already partially underway.

Um, and so when we think about the policy lever here, we need to be thinking about how we can make sure that people are in the loop on what the plans are from the beginning.

Um, and then there are also additional risks to the local ecosystem.

And so when we're thinking about policy solutions, again, that planning aspect, this the disclosure at the beginning, the environmental studies from a third party are gonna be really fundamental here, but then also on the back end, um making sure that we're monitoring what is happening in reality, uh, making sure that we're testing water as it's returning to uh the ecosystem and thinking about not just uh withdrawal and return, but also the conditions of that water.

Something as simple as the temperature at which we return the water into the ecosystem can dramatically affect the wildlife that uh is in is naturally occurring in the environment.

Um to land with Shannon.

Thank you.

Um and then, of course, last the land use problem.

Um data centers can take up a large amount of acreage, um, which uh is why a lot of them aren't I in rural counties, of course.

But um I I think it's important again for scale that you know a 700-acre data center, which is uh on the little bit on the larger side, um, is larger than all of miles square.

Um so you can imagine that one that is slightly smaller is still around half that.

So that's a good uh perspective.

Um and even if uh uh developers are looking at urban areas um that can disproportionately affect communities that have not uh received the same kinds of investments in the past.

Um and so they have to look at not only cleaning up sites but also then building on them, and that can create problems, all kinds of problems for neighborhoods as as anyone who's lived near large construction sites can attest.

Um and then brownfields are often designed uh a hot spot for these developers, but disturbing those sites can also create environmental contamination.

I think that's important to note.

Um and so we want to make sure that we prioritize some of our values when we're looking at land use as well.

We don't want to destroy sensitive lands, that means wetlands.

We don't want to see forests cut down.

Uh Indy uh desperately needs more green spaces, so we want to try to protect those areas.

Um we want to prioritize people and avoid development that are near critical areas where people need to go, hospitals, schools, and other highly trafficked areas, and then make sure that sites are remediated appropriately.

Um and then we also want to consider uh the contamination on sites.

Um so uh and then last, you know, we want to look at maybe potentially uh curtailing their growth to a specific industrial area.

Terra Haute has done something similar with their rise um area, and they um anything outside of that area requires intense community approval to be an exception to that area.

Um we're also interested in nature-based solutions like that the data centers engage meaningfully with the community to provide uh water runoff uh options like permeable pavers, um gardens, rooftops, uh green roofs, and things like that.

And then, of course, as Rebecca mentioned, a full environmental impact study um to make sure we know what they will be doing, um, not just at the beginning of the project but through the entire life of the project.

So and so with that, I'd like to just uh recommend a few next steps.

Um we are not legal experts, so please uh help us understand what levers are realistic from the city level.

Um we do want to reiterate the importance of uh public engagement on this.

Um and and again, just underscoring the fact that uh a large data center that's already planned in the state of Indiana is the size of the miles square, and it will use half the power that AES generates.

Um so these are massive developments, and it's it's critical that we think about them on the scale that they really are.

Um and so with that, I would like to say thank you all for the extended time that you gave us this evening.

This is an extremely complicated topic, and we appreciate your time.

Well, thank thank you, and thank you both.

Um a couple things.

Um, um, just to reiterate your point, the and the point I made earlier is the what the intent of this committee is uh to really wrestle with these complex policy issues and do it in public and do it in cooperation uh in collaboration um uh with the public.

And that's why um we're having this meeting tonight and while we're having uh such great speakers and we're looking forward to hearing uh public comment um as we wrestle um and think this issue through.

I think both our speakers really um help clarify uh why we're facing um the complexity of this you is the this issue and why it's so important that we put together a structure uh to help us um uh manage and understand these things.

Um I do uh want to uh so two things.

One, I know that a couple counselors have time limitations, and so since we're not having an actual hearing where you don't need a quorum, um anyone who needs to leave, please go ahead and step out.

It's it that that's fine.

Everyone has family equipments and so on.

Uh so number one, and then uh number two, um, open it to questions um uh to any any counselors, uh counselor Cahill, let's go with you first.

Thanks, Mr.

Chair.

Uh it counselor Perkins asked my question to uh Eric the uh the first time, so uh I'll ask you the same question because the I think the key thing that we struggle with is what is the definition of a data center.

Uh so have you seen anyone successfully define a data center and what did they do to define and say this is a data center?

Yeah, Shannon's gonna take that one.

I mean, I don't know if the Oxford English dictionary has gotten on this yet, but I think it is a facility whose primary use is to provide server storage.

Uh sometimes we refer to as cloud storage for data.

Um that can be either in-house like Amazon, or it could be as a for a third party where they're like leasing space as well, but whose footprints exceeds a certain minimum number of acreage and energy use and water use, which cities would probably define for themselves what would count as a data center, but usually it's around above a hundred or so megawatts of power, I think is a good benchmark.

Um, but then also we're seeing hyperscale data centers, which are much larger, like Project Rainier.

Um so I think that there's kind of now become those two definitions like traditional data centers a little bit smaller, um, hyperscale data center is much larger.

We're looking at hundreds of acres, huge amounts of power and water.

And I think cities have to kind of set some of those benchmarks for those definitions themselves, but we're looking at this based on the projects that are coming online today, and I think we're starting to see the pattern drift upward.

So larger uh acreages, larger energy use footprints.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, the yeah, so I I think the challenge with your your dictionary definition is that when it comes to zoning and regulation, it it's really difficult if not impossible to regulate the sort of a from a First Amendment perspective, what are they doing inside there, right?

Like just because you don't agree with it, doesn't give us the right to regulate that.

I think the energy usage is certainly an angle uh that we could regulate.

I think what we would have to figure out is because like when we look at the the Google data center, that it was actually multiple buildings uh they were talking about.

And how do you how do you keep somebody if we draw a line at say a hundred uh megawatts, how do you keep somebody from saying, hey, I'll just zone a bunch of different parcels in close proximity, because the Google, while they were coming to build the to get it zoned and to uh do all that, it was still gonna be I think five buildings.

Uh but I feel like they could have subdivided if whatever we do, someone's gonna try to figure out a way around it.

So thank you.

Absolutely, you've hit the nail on the head there.

And we'll go to Council Hart in a second.

But I think zoning is really a uh a key issue in um we don't have a structure currently to that that where we manage this via our zoning process, which is why uh things are so complicated at the moment and why we need to help solve that.

Um but I think one way counselor cahill is is um by the use, yes, but also by the you know the size, because some are smaller, some are some are hyperscale, um, some are enterprise.

You know, the if anyone watched the recent Purdue webinar, they went into that in some detail.

That was very that was very helpful.

Um Counselor Hart, and then Councillor Boots, and then Councillor Brown.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

And I'll just jump on this topic of definition real quick, just from uh an expertise background.

I you know, my my sort of my day job in my life in this field.

Um I mean, and a lot of these things are true statements, right?

It it's a collection of of hardware.

It's it's servers, it switches, it's it's um routers, it's all of those things that are aggregated uh in a location that are doing computing for a varying degree of reasons and/or backup and recovery.

Um I like to think of it at least in a way when speaking to a broad audience is that um you just putting one definition on the term data centers like is trying to do that with a vehicle or a car, right?

I mean, you've got all different size types of cars, you got electric cars, you got gas cars, you got trucks, you got um cars of all different sizes and shapes and engine sizes.

Same thing goes for a data center.

And I think I mean you said it I mean spot on, right?

It's when we get into this conversation, the zoning is the massive part of all this.

Um and that's where we're gonna have to really take a look at the size, the shape, the capacity, the usage, and all those components.

But a data center itself is what it is, just like a car is what it is, but the size and scope of it will change based on on its intended use.

Um as for a question, uh, what I'm curious on, and I don't know a whole lot about your organization, so if my question is far overreaching, it's because of of my ignorance of just not knowing how the scale of what you guys do.

Um but I have gone through uh the the Google data centers in my district, so I've been everything you've expressed, I've seen and I've I've listened to and I've been part of these conversations.

Um what what's interesting to me is I know that we've got over, or I think right at or near and around 30 data centers in Marion County.

And what's interesting to me is to understand that you know a lot of folks didn't know those are in the county.

And and there was one that I toured that's in Councillor Nielsen's district.

I think we tore it together, actually, uh, that you would never know.

No, most of you wouldn't never know it even exists, right?

And what I'm curious to know is, you know, if it's based on your scope, your capacity, if you've got if the Hoosier Environmental Council has conducted any research on the existing 30 or so data centers that are in Marion County and created any kind of analytical benchmark or factors uh that are addressing their water usage and community impact.

That way, you know, we as a council and the members of the public have some sort of benchmark to look at.

That is a great question.

Um I would look to some of the research that Citizens Action Coalition has done on this.

Um I would also say you're absolutely right, data centers have existed since the 1940s, and I think that what we're talking about here is a massive change in scope and scale as opposed to uh and a new function, right?

As opposed to uh a new class of of facilities data centers have existed, but their nature, their scale, and their use is changing dramatically.

I I think and I think that's a a really great point, uh, Councillor Harb, but also Rebecca, because um to your point, these have existed, but the explosion in tech and the need for computing power and AI in particular has caused this spark.

Um in fact, I saw data the other day that said the United States is borderline in a recession if it wasn't for uh the spend that's associated with these with these centers.

So um that demonstrates the the intensity of the of the um investment that's happening right now.

Um okay, Councilor Boots and then Councillor Brown.

So Boots.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, and thanks for your presentation this evening.

Um I appreciate all the state policy review.

That's useful, but our challenge is the rubber meets the road right here in this room.

Um and what information or studies do you know of?

And and I asked this question too of Eric, if he's still listening.

Um what are the local policy trends that you're seeing?

Yeah.

And uh a primary one that I'm interested in is are most municipalities doing a buy-right model where basically saying I'm a data center, I automatically fit in an I2 zone, therefore you can't stop me.

Or are they taking a more limited view and using special use exe exceptions where they must come before maybe a special panel, maybe go through a special channel and come back before us, possibly, go through some additional public engagement steps.

Um what are you seeing more?

Because I I I prefer the latter model versus the matter by right where people can just and that's how we have 30 data centers in Marion County, and most people don't know that.

Yeah, absolutely.

And that's an excellent question.

And I I want to point you to uh the appendix and these slides as a starting point.

Uh we did not have time.

Yeah, we'll make sure you get them.

Um we uh didn't have time to go into all of our recommendations just for the facts that we're in in this setting, but um we're seeing uh a broad variety of approaches.

Some communities, even here in the state of Indiana, are taking a moratorium approach.

Um some are taking, like uh Shannon was talking about, the approach of saying, you know, in this corridor, uh, this is where data centers are able to be uh cited.

Um and I would also caution against the the by-right use.

We're seeing some legislation right now that would make certain agricultural zones a buy-right use, which would ult for any kind of development, not just data centers.

Um and that opens us up to risk of um the local community not even being a part of the conversation.

Um and so again, these facilities are uh are there's there's a ton of public engagement even in this room um related to these facilities, and and I would encourage that any process that the uh Indianapolis City County Council um recommends that that uh it take that that into account.

And I would also point you to uh Climate Mayors has some really good uh information on this, and I've linked you to their data center page in the slides as well.

Thank you.

Who is that ladder group you mentioned?

Climate mayors.

Thank you, Councilor Boots.

Um in uh I'll just say this for the sake of the committee members who know that whenever we get into a meaty issue when we have a lot of questions, I get I get really uh uh happy that that was the intent of this committee in the first place.

So thank you so much for your deep um uh your deep engagement on this council, and there's a lot of really excellent questions.

Counselor Brown.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Um and yeah, thank you to the audience who's sitting here listening for a long time.

I hate to do um what we're all doing up here tonight, which is make a long introductory statement before getting to my question, but here I go anyway.

I appreciate the the recent questions about investment and Chairman Barth, you mentioned um a report.

I actually think you're understating it pretty significantly.

I think we would be in a very severe recession without investment into AI, especially in NVIDIA.

I think folks should really look into that and see that up to 75% of that investment into NVIDIA is actually done by subsidiaries of NVIDIA.

So there's very real evidence we're in a speculative bubble that is going to crash the entire United States economy very soon.

Um obviously you can't predict the future, but it sure looks bad.

But in the meantime, even while the economy is going gangbusters, um what that's doing is concentrating wealth into the hands of big tech, uh specifically the same oligarchs who are supporting the Trump administration right now.

So whether you're a fan of that or not, I think that's important to know.

Uh I also just wanted to talk about the costs, and I'm glad that you brought this up.

Um, obviously there's the money.

Uh we had an excellent question from a counselor over there, uh Counselor Bain, thank you, about whether we could use um some incentive structures to set it up so that when we build a data center that actually lowers the cost because they're paying for their own transmission, they're paying for their own um plants, et cetera.

And I think cool, you know.

Great, great idea.

Um I I would favor that.

And I think that uh so uh point of reference, I am actually a board member of Citizens Action Coalition, uh, though I'm not, of course, one of their policy wonks, but I I'm around them enough to pick up enough and I smell like them, right?

So that actually wasn't my first environmental job.

My very first environmental job 22 years ago was for Hoosier Environmental Council when I was uh dreadlock teenager.

And at that point, we were doing a lot of work, I knocked doors around the state talking about the impact of coal-fired power plants.

And natural gas plants I know are a little bit cleaner, but are actually still pretty bad.

One aspect we looked at was mercury, another was asthma.

At that point, you know, again, 22 years ago, people in southern Indiana near more coal-fired power plants had seven times the rate of childhood asthma.

And at that point, Hoosier Venom Council had a bunch of numbers ready to go about what the economic cost of that health care was.

We all know that we've seen both child care and health care, uh public health costs, uh rock skyrocket up while the government pays less and less of that, which is putting the squeeze on our constituents.

Uh I don't know if you happen to have any numbers about the economic obviously there's lifestyle costs, there's there's the the tragedy of watching your child coughing.

Uh actually just had a friend um on Monday who had to take his uh baby to the ER for an asthma attack.

But but just the economic cost that that often gets missed in this.

Do you happen to have numbers on that?

I don't have that as part of prepared mark remarks today.

Do you mention?

Yeah, we can use them.

Um then my my final point, thank you for the uh permission, Mr.

Chair, is the cost of climate change.

I know it's not sexy to talk about anymore for some reason, even though every scientist on earth is pulling their hair out and talking about the catastrophic damage it's costing, not just to polar bears, not just to anything else, uh like like nature and and friendship and and rainbows.

It's causing real uh cost, especially I might add to immigration, right?

A huge amount of immigration and increasing is caused by climate refugees, people whose farms were were devastated by climate change and who are now moving to the United States.

So again, I would love to see some numbers on the cost of that, which would go up if we have to build new you know natural gas plants or keep coal-fired power plants online.

Go ahead.

I I can't sorry, I can't speak to the um the financial cost of of a specific data center load uh for the city, like both in terms of health care or um social cost of carbon, which I think you're kind of getting to, or even climate impacts.

Climate impacts are relatively baked in right now.

But um I think you bring up an interesting point that even if we can um try to protect ratepayers, for example, we can come up with a bunch of regulatory schemes that could help curtail some of the the worst blows to electric ratepayers.

Um there's some inescapable realities of adding large-scale data centers to our city, which is that they have to take significant water withdrawals, even if it's a closed loop system, they still have to take a significant amount of water to get started.

And then they will still have hazardous chemicals.

I know Rebecca only briefly touched on like the forever chemicals that are in the wastewater for these facilities like PFAS.

Um, and they still have to produce the energy from something.

And even if they're helping defray the cost to those ratepayers, you can go back to that IRP, you know.

We work a lot in the state legislature.

You have to read the bill, read the bill.

Go back to that IRP, and not only is the cost to the ratepayer modeled, but so is the carbon.

And you cannot escape that carbon number.

And um, I didn't include it in the presentation, but I think it's worth bearing bearing um on now is that we will not be able to meet our carbon um pledge to our children.

The Thrive Indianapolis program will not just be um difficult, it will be impossible because you cannot plant enough trees, you cannot, you know, do enough bike lanes to offset that amount of carbon emissions um from a new gas plant, a new set of diesel generators, whatever it is.

Um SMRs are not coming to save us, you know, and so I think that we need to be realistic about that fantasy right now.

But um it's you know, you cannot escape that carb.

And even if you can try to escape some of the costs to utilities from water or energy based on whatever you know, regulatory schemes you can, you know uh implement quickly, um, you can't escape the carbon.

Thank you.

Um we have a question from Councillor Delaney, and then um see if there's any other questions, and I'd like to get to public comment uh because I think we probably have about a half an hour of public comment, and ideally we could um uh land land this plane by by about uh 732 hours in.

Uh so counselor Delaney, go ahead and then if anyone else has questions, indicate to me so I know.

But Councillor Letting, please go ahead.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Um I am really interested in this idea.

Um, and Counselor Bain brought it up with um the first presentation of how do we make sure we're not passing the cost of the data center specifically as it is to the electric power.

How do we not pass that cost of infrastructure improvements on to the regular rate payer?

And that was a section in the previous presenter's presentation.

And I'm bringing this back up with you because you're involved at the state house, and I don't know that we, as the local governing body with home rule in the state of Indiana, and the state regulates our power and water, our utilities.

Um what can we do at the local level to try to make sure that the data centers are carrying the burden of their increased demand and that it's not passed on to the local ratepayers?

I think there are limited options as it relates to what you can do at the local level.

I think some of the options include um some of the the incentives that the state has authorized are discretionary.

So as you decide how you're gonna approach data centers from the city level, um, thinking about how you can reserve those incentives just for those data centers that are meeting best practices.

Um and then the the other component is that the 80% of infrastructure costs that we mentioned, that's a floor in uh in that was given to us last year by the General Assembly.

And we can get into the specifics about how that's sort of a masked number at a different time.

Um but uh you a lot of data centers are agreeing to pay for 100% of incremental costs, and so um I would encourage this body to think about how you can um how you can make that a standard practice as part of whatever guidance the city comes up with.

Let's do two two more, then we're gonna then we're gonna go to public comment.

So we'll go to Councillor Brown and then Councillor Bain will give you the last worry, Councillor Bain.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

I just briefly wanted to say um just a comment to the public here today.

Um I'm not sure if there's some overlap between this group and the group I'm about to mention, but I issued a statement earlier today saying that I favor a total moratorium on data centers effective immediately, and then a pause.

Really, I don't want any data centers ever uh in in this county.

And I I sent out a petition and just this afternoon with no notice ahead of time, and over 65 people had signed that and left comments um prior to me uh pulling this up on my phone right now.

So I just wanted to mention that into the record how deep and widespread the public opposition of data centers is.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor Brown.

Counselor Bain.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Um, just kind of piggybacking off of Councillor Delaney's question there.

I mean, you know, as counselors, we do have uh a lot that we can do during the rezoning process, you know.

Obviously, there's a data center that's looking to um be developed in the district.

I have the privilege of representing on the southwest side.

It's in an area that's already zoned industrial, so it goes through a bit of a different process than like what we saw in Franklin Township, since it's just a variance.

You know, unfortunately, city county councils left out of that process and MDC has the final say, but through the rezoning, I've been working really hard to get as many protections as possible.

One of the first things I asked for was that the developer would not only pay for all the energy costs, but they would also pay for, you know, if there's a new substation that has to be built, that they should pay for that.

They should have to pay for the transmission, the generation, and any kind of distribution infrastructure that's needed for that.

And you know, I I think that kind of just needs to be the floor for whenever we see data centers wanting to come to Marion County and really probably the state.

I I know the governor mentioned something very similar to that in his state of the state address about how data centers should be paying for all of their energy use.

And you know, I don't really have a question for this, but I do appreciate the the platform that we have here.

I really look forward to us coming up with an ordinance and working with the city on that.

I know the city uh DMD ultimately has to present that to the MDC first, then it comes to us um for approval, and you know, we can obviously make changes to that.

But you know, that that's really where the real work's gonna be, and I look forward to getting there.

I have heard a lot of speculation tonight, and there's nothing inherently wrong with speculation.

But I look forward to us actually getting to work and drafting an ordinance for that.

Yeah, thank you, Council Main.

I I think that's a very point good point.

And um as I mentioned at the start of this, the the complexity associated um with this issue is is significant.

Um also uh navigating what we as a council actually have the power to do is also um complicated, as you pointed out, um, zoning matters actually start with the MDC, and most of the decisions right now are being made by the MDC.

So we are um that adds to the challenges in trying to understand and manage the situation.

Um oftentimes we're in situations as members of the council where um uh because we don't have uh home rule in the state and we exist as a function of the General Assembly creating us, um uh we live within that within that framework and and have to understand um that uh those those constraints exist for us, and so how we best um represent our constituents and um take action um while we're living in this complex environment is part of what we're wrestling with and trying to figure out tonight.

So um with that, um thanks again to our presenters.

Um you're more than welcome to stay there, or you're more welcome to go sit in the back, whatever you would like to do.

I know you're right up front, so but but but uh but thank you uh both for your time and in both being here tonight and um answering questions and doing your presentation, but also I know you put that together in partnership with some other environmental organizations, so thanks to them uh for weighing in as well.

Um it's a real collaborative effort among the environmental folks in the city and the state.

Um so um because uh as I mentioned earlier and keep mentioning um part of what we do in the environmental sustainability committee is is try to make public policy um collaboratively.

I wanted to have um uh time for public comment.

Um so everyone has signed up and um I'm gonna turn it over to our clerk in one second to read our rules around um public comment.

I do just want to remind folks that uh we don't have any matter in front of us, so there's nothing um that we'll be voting on tonight.

Um we're more um seeking comment on the information that we've heard tonight and uh how you would envision your thoughts on um uh the the zoning or the regulatory structure um for how we would um work within the city.

And I'm especially interested in that that continuum that we mentioned earlier of the the smaller uh data centers that already exist and have for a long time as far as the the structure of um cloud computing and and entities uh doing that job in their enterprise all the way up to hyperscale um uh data centers that um uh have been um generating so much interest and in fact is what is happening up in the in the leap district.

Um just really um love to hear your thoughts on on uh uh how we can manage that.

So let me turn it over to you, Madam Clerk, and then we'll go to public comments.

Okay.

Before we begin um to open the floor to public comments, we would like to remind committee members and the public of a few ground rules.

So everyone can have a fair chance to speak and be heard.

It is important that we each observe the following rules.

First, each speaker will be limited to two minutes.

Second, any public comments must reasonably relate to the agenda item under consideration.

Third, speakers who stray from the item under consideration or become unduly repetitious, may be asked to move on to their next point or conclude their remarks.

Finally, attendees who cause disruptions that prevent the committee from proceeding through tonight's agenda in a reasonably efficient manner will be removed.

Please remember that some types of threatening speech or incitement to violence are not protected by the first amendment at all.

We will deal with those issues if they come up, but we don't think they will.

Mr.

Chairman, now if a committee member asks for consent to adopt these rules, we can proceed to public comments.

Eddie H.

Cliff M, Samantha A, and William B.

Uh good afternoon, Chairman and board members.

We appreciate this opportunity to for you to hear from the public, the people that put you in your very seats that you're sitting in.

We are not alone.

We're being inundated by data centers all over the state of Indiana, not just Indianapolis.

Unfortunately, I had to fight almost a year of one that was going to be put literally in my backyard.

Now I'm fighting one that's going to be put on my farmland.

The land I grew up on because Indiana refused and has refused to do development standards and building standards for the state of Indiana.

No matter what you come up with, no matter what rainbow you paint it with, the data center people will come in and have that undone because it does not have state law to back it up.

We will lose that battle before it even gets started.

We have to go to the state and demand building and development standards for data centers.

Do what's right.

We regulate adult bookstores, we regulate liquor stores, we regulate gas stations.

We can surely regulate a data center.

We do that at the state level.

It does not rest with these residents.

I'm tired of this.

They bring the experts.

People in this room are not the experts.

We're the residents that it's going to impact.

So that's why we have to fight.

So I look to this council and the full council of this city to go to the state and demand development standards, building standards, and zoning standards for any data center, regardless of where they are.

Thank you tonight for your time.

Hi, my name is Cliff Marsiglio.

I'm a director with the Near East Side Community Organization known as NESCO.

We represent 30,000 residents on the Near East Side across multiple neighborhoods.

Our work sits at the intersection of housing stability, public health, infrastructure, and utility access.

When systems fail when systems fail, we see it first.

When the costs rise, our neighbors feel it immediately.

Our neighbors are asking for us to have more consideration about this.

We are talking about the brown fields that are going to push the pollutants out.

One of the data centers we have right now is one of the dirtiest sites on our on our property.

We see toxic plumes coming out, and we're just going to build on it.

Effective immediately.

A pause to assess environmental impacts, utility strains, tax policy, and enforceable community protections that is not anti-growth.

It is responsible, it is responsible governance.

Until we can answer who benefits, who pays, and who bears the risks of these projects, they should not move forward.

Who am I?

So I'm a resident of Indianapolis, District 8, up in 42nd of Sherman.

I uh am an expert in artificial intelligence.

I've been working on AI since 2016, graduated from IUPY with a master's, went to Carnegie Mellon University, worked as a researcher for the DOD, came back here for my PhD where I worked on trusted AI, trying to make smaller models that don't need a fit on the cloud.

I've used the cloud.

2019, we're using the cloud for doing inferencing on detecting emotion from voice.

I was working with colleagues who were doing fire fire fire detection for firefighters in San Francisco.

In 2022, I was doing very small AI that works on my laptop that can pretty much detect anomalies in front of my front yard if someone's breaking in.

I used it for someone breaking in my neighbor's house.

That was my PhD work that I didn't get to publish on.

But that said, I want you to understand there are data centers.

Yes, there's 30.

You say that's 30.

What they're pushing for right now is something called the scaling law.

They are trying to exponentially build the largest models possible because they believe with the scaling law that they can meet AGI.

80% of academics disagree with that notion.

So whether or not it's a perfect pretty data center like America Towers, that they I like that data center.

They want to put thousands of them.

That's the size of a hyperscale data center.

So if it's hyperscaler, if it's pretty, if it's nice, we need a moratorium.

So I stand with Jesse calling for a moratorium.

Hold off, just stop it.

Stop the games and watch and see what they're doing and learn more about it and figure out what you need to do to regulate the regulate the city.

So that's what I got.

Yes.

Hello, my name is Samantha Elba, and um the biggest thing that concerns me is like trying to define what a data center is.

To me, that raises red flags and basically saying once we defined it, how can we find loopholes or ways around it because we're technically not a data center?

That is concerning for me.

I think it doesn't matter how you define a data center.

In my opinion, it should matter what the community and what your constituents are saying.

And if they're saying they don't want it, I feel like as your constituents, that's part of the role here is to listen to them.

Um two words that I'm really getting tired of hearing as it revolves around AES rate increase, data centers, realistically, or the leap project, these are all encompassing.

This is like a cancer that's spreading through the body and it needs to be cut out.

The two words are transparency and growth.

If these companies were not transparent to begin with, I don't want more transparency.

I just don't want to deal with that as personally as a as a resident.

They've already shown their colors, and we're seeing this time and time again, where we're last-minute finding out about data centers rate increases, 25 million gallons of water leaving Eagle Creek and then being dumped back.

We're the last ones to know.

So transparency and growth.

The obsession with growth has gotten so out of control.

What good is growth when there is no environment to support that growth?

We are extracting everything, we are bleeding the earth dry, and again, that just like Councilman uh Brown said, this is not some hippie-dippy, you know, saying it's we are literally at capacity if not past that.

And what we're doing with these data centers is just allowing the these companies and corporations who are just in it for a dollar sign.

They are sacrificing the state of Indiana.

Cheap land, they're able to get away with certain things that maybe they couldn't get away with in other states.

And behind closed doors, they're laughing at you like you're fools because they got away with it.

So please stop data centers from entering our communities and harming our people.

Oh, sorry.

Um, Alex Bond.

Uh let's see, city counselors.

I'm here to tell you that the lack of zoning laws, ordinances, and regulations on data centers are impacting my community.

I'm here to advocate for a full, complete, total, all-encompassing moratorium on data centers.

Um, I'm a data analyst.

I work with AI stuff.

It's all just useless right now.

Um, as many other presenters have mentioned, managing the resources associated with the surge of data centers is a larger task that expands beyond local and county boundaries.

I live in Pike Township near the American Tower Corporation proposed edge data center.

ATC, American Tower Corporation, is an 80 billion dollar company.

Uh the following comes from a publication for their in potential investors and customers.

Uh they have 43,000 towers across the U.S., they've identified a thousand tower sites that are ideal for multi-phase data center development.

Like many data center developers, they look for cheap land.

In this case, they own it.

They don't care what's around it, they own it, they're gonna do what they can with it.

Uh they look for 10 sites at a time.

The spot in Indianapolis is advertised as 36 buildable acres.

Their reason their current rezoning request is for seven acres.

So there's still 29 acres that they can build on at whenever they decide.

It's gonna be easier for them to push it through once they get this zoning request approved.

Um so in a public meeting, they misled an auditorium of pe people over over a hundred people on their intentions and outright denied their plans to build a data center complex that has diesel generators that encompasses 36 acres.

And they're going to build this right next to apartment complexes and 450 brand new homes in addition to 50 long-term residents.

It's also on the same power grid as St.

Vincent Hospital.

Um somebody else asked them, expressed their concern about that, and you know, possibly their loved ones dying, confused the ATC project manager said this isn't gonna impact the school.

They don't care what they're doing, and they don't care about the community.

For businesses, profit is the motivator.

Businesses have figured out the fastest, cheapest way to build these, and we need to regulate them, or we're all screwed.

My name is Courtney Plaza.

It was noted in the first presentation that the predominant benefit of data centers were solely in corporate enterprises.

The deregulation of environmental protections in Indiana were enacted to make it easier to create environmentally dangerous dangerous infrastructure such as this.

These projects don't benefit residents.

They cost us from tax abatements that can last for decades to those that will be impacted from long-term health.

Questions regarding the cost of the grid fall short because we know that rate payers will foot the bill.

AES hikes have not been completed from the last time that they had requested an increase, and the most recent time they were not denied.

I'm curious why Indy Parks department was not notified for a consultation, as this is a city asset, and they should have a voice, and they are our environmental stewards.

Our known impact to Eagle Creek would overwhelm the Eagle Creek Reservoir regardless of wastewater infrastructure developments in Lebanon.

Toxic conditions from Eagle Creek environment could have an irreversible impact.

Not to mention, as this water flows from Eagle, it turrets downstream to the Ohio River Valley, which is much greater than just Indianapolis alone.

We need to redef redefine data centers by category and use in place and put in place a moratorium until that language is defined specifically and explicitly with respect to Indianapolis environmental goals.

The fact that the Leap Project began building without city insight regarding the impact of city drinking water in our green spaces is concerning.

And as a resident, insulting.

Data centers have a tendency to limit information about their plans to build, but are virtually impossible to hold accountable for noise, light, soil, water, and air pollution.

It was noted in a question by council how we can shift the cost of upgrades to AI centers, but I would add to this question by asking how do we hold them accountable for the irreplaceable environmental cost to our city?

As residents of Georgia, Texas, Virginia, and so many others, what happened to their property values, their homes, many of which they've known for decades before Meta came in.

We need to put a moratorium as soon as possible.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chairman.

Thank you, Counselors.

Uh, my name is Kevin Nichols.

Uh I'm with Earth Charter Indiana.

Um data centers might be a good idea.

I'm gonna give you your time back uh because I'm gonna interrupt you just briefly and say Earth Charter Indiana is based in Council District 7.

And uh So I just want to give you a big shout out.

Can we start his time over again?

Kevin Nichols.

Um data centers might be a complicated issue, um, but the public sentiments about them are pretty straightforward.

Um previously I worked in Indiana State government uh for the Indiana broadband office prior to working for uh Earth Charter.

I was uh digital equity advisor focused on things like rural broadband and matters of digital equity, like Wi-Fi hotspots for remote learning or digital skills training and uh in public libraries.

So I'm not anti-tech, but I am anti-hasty development.

Um so at around the same time uh that I started with Earth Charter, there was lots of press about a bunch of these data center developments, including the one in Franklin Township.

Uh I didn't know a lot about the topic, frankly.

Um, so I decided to go to the Midwest Data Center Investor Conference and Expo in Chicago, uh, where I got to hear from the investors and developers themselves.

So I heard directly from these people all of the predatory tactics that they want to use to integrate themselves into our communities, like paying off neighbors, suppressing protesters to out-of-state staging areas, or getting in good with local politicians before the project is announced.

So contit const your constituents are all scared and resolute in their rejection of this wave of development, so please listen to them.

Uh thank you to my counselor, Jesse Brown for supporting the wishes of me and the rest of your constituents, and thank you to Councilor Hart for listening to your constituents when Google was trying to build that massive facility in Franklin Township.

Good afternoon.

Good afternoon, Council.

My name is Kurt Miller.

I'm an attorney that lives in Irvington, Indiana.

And I I think this body has a tremendous opportunity to craft an ordinance that leads as opposed to an ordinance that follows or following whatever ordinance comes from the state or other bodies.

This body can pass policies involving the definition of a data center, policies related to setbacks, decibel restrictions, plans for power consumption, and offsetting the increased cost passed on to the consumer.

Water usage, pollution, and importantly, plans for decommission.

I challenge this body to lead the way for future cities to address these issues and keep our Hoosier state healthy, smart, and clean.

Thank you.

And um, so I decided at that day that I was gonna go and test her water.

Um the tap water was fine, and I had five tests, so I decided, like, you know, we'll harm the fact.

Let me just let me take it out the sky, let me see what it's gonna do.

Um I found that you know um that it was contaminated.

So I spent the last year and some trying to contact I Dem DNR, IDOH, Marion County Health Department, to tell everybody what's been going on, and I was met with some abrasion um by some people who told me just because I said that it was happening doesn't mean that it that it didn't that is true.

So I went and I got I started like a little company, I got investors, and I went and visited Man County Health Department and the IDOH again for them to confirm what I've been trying to tell everybody about what's going on and the elevated levels of manganese, sodium, um, not sodium, calcium, zinc.

There's like six major metals that are above the EPA limit that's causing people harm.

And um this is kind of like where my wits in right now is just I didn't even want to show up.

I I think I gave him the report like last year.

I've I've met with so many people, and it's just like I'm pleading to the public to for some type of initiative to maintain clean air and water in our county.

Okay, thank you.

Rachel W.

Scott M.

Megan A and Mike O.

My name is Rachel Wolverton.

I live near Eagle Creek Reservoir, and I'm in District 5, represented by Maggie Lewis.

Thank you, Chairman Barth, Maggie Lewis, Dan Boots, and other city council members for your op-ed and Indie Star speaking about our community's concerns about the LEEP project using millions of gallons of water from Eagle Creek every day for the Leap Industrial Project in Lebanon, which will include the Meta Data Center.

I kindly ask for the council to consider asking the mayor to not sign any agreements with Citizens Energy that will facilitate sending this water to the LEEP district.

I also ask you to discuss how the city could move forward with a study to examine any potential impact LEAP will have on Eagle Creek Reservoir, our water, and our environment.

On December 20th, I started the Change.org petition to save Eagle Creek.

As of today, there are over 14,000 signatures and 160 comments from concerned citizens.

The Eagle Creek Reservoir is a central water source, not only for my community, but for the entire city of Indianapolis.

It is more than just a scenic landscape.

It's a vital component of healthy living for our families.

The proposed extraction from the LEED project, including Meta's data center, could reduce the reservoirs levels, impacting not only our drinking water, but also diminishing recreational opportunities that numerous families enjoy.

The introduction of wastewater back into the watershed is even more concerning, and such actions increase the risk of contaminating the reservoir with pollutants that could harm both the ecosystem and human health.

Once polluted, the cleanup of the waterways can be extraordinarily expensive and time consuming.

Alternatives must be explored that do not place our precious water and ecology at risk.

Please do not send Indianapolis's drinking water to a data center, and please do not return wastewater to Eagle Creek.

We do not need AI-generated pictures of our pets and children.

We do not need AI to think or speak for us.

Data centers are threatening our children's future in numerous ways.

Thinking.

Thank you.

Scott Mosier, um, and Broad Rupert resident.

Um thank you for all the comments because uh I think that that a couple things are very, very clear.

One is um you guys are on the driver's seat.

Why?

Because there is significant public opposition to this topic.

And why?

Well, because they're asking themselves, what does our community get for all of this?

What does our community get for a data center?

And the answer almost always is not a whole lot.

They do not generate a whole lot of of jobs.

And also, on January 13th, the vice chairman of Microsoft actually put out a blog post.

You can see it to s to outline a community first data center approach, which addresses things like they will pay their way for their energy, and they'll add to the community tax base, and they'll they're add training and jobs and that sort of thing.

You guys are in the driver's seat, whether it's the township, city, county, state level of government.

This is what you guys are meant for.

You can say to these these uh corporations, give us something, give us more than what we're giving you.

Give us some jobs, give us um, you know, infrastructure, give us um, we're not gonna give you tax rebates.

Um, you know, that sort of thing.

So you have you're in the driver's seat, you can make it happen.

Um, and by you I mean all the government, and hopefully something good will come out of it.

Thank you.

Hi, I'm Megan with Protect Pike Township.

I wanted to share some facts.

Right now, AI data centers have 80% power demand equivalent of what we use today in Indiana.

We cannot have more data centers.

Um, I have been supporting communities in Michigan City and Fort Wayne because I work for an environmental nonprofit, and the Google data center said they in fact needed no new energy and no infrastructure in 2023.

And then this year we saw a seven billion dollar case for Indiana Michigan Power customers, with 39% of those costs going to everyday Hoosiers to foot the bill for Amazon and Google's energy needs.

Um I also am part of efforts, you know, regarding beyond coal and moving away from coal power.

And we have a 202C order keeping the Schaefer coal plant open.

Um and just a couple of months ago, the commit the county commissioners there got an application to rezone part of the Schaefer coal plant site from agricultural to industrial, and there was no disclosure that that would house a new gas plant and also a new data center.

And once you invite this infrastructure in and build it up, more and more come.

Already Morgan County's data center would use about twice as much energy as in Indianapolis residents.

And our manufacturers will not be here if there's not reliable power.

This is a great way to lose jobs in Indianapolis.

So I encourage specific zoning for data centers.

Our state and federal laws fail, Hoosers.

Um Google's data center in Fort Wayne is up to 179 diesel generators without pollution controls.

That is a multi-billion dollar company that can afford the best diesel generators, or even better, battery storage and less polluting diesel generators.

It's a mile from New Haven schools.

It is by a lot of homes.

And you know, American Tower might seem like a nice company, but their plan is to expand that site, tear down the forest there.

There's Crooked Creek next door.

There are wetlands, and it will be boxed in by people's homes.

Over a thousand residents have opposed American Towers plan.

And I asked the company, you know, let's say you expand you have more diesel generators.

Would you consider coordinating with local schools to make sure you don't test them while children are playing?

And they said, Well, think about it.

That was last year, and then a month ago they told us they're using tier two.

So please pass a moratorium.

Thank you.

Hi, uh Mike Ollis uh with uh Forest for All and also uh chief of staff of Progressive Democrats of America.

Um I just want to give a shout out to Megan and to Shannon, because back in 2013 we were a lot younger, and uh I think none of us had kids at the time.

And we got the city council back then to take a statement against against burning coal in Marion County.

And the mayor was out to launch uh people said it was impossible to get uh to get um uh the energy company to listen to us.

And within about five months, six months, we got that coal plant stopped burning coal.

And it was because the city council took leadership, and uh so shout out to Zach Abson if you're out there listening, he led that fight for us.

And uh and so as I think about the road ahead here, I think our hope is that the city council is our moral voice.

It is where we can have we're closest to it, uh we can make the biggest difference, and it's your moral voice that we need right now uh to say let's put a moratorium on data centers.

I was at I've been at several meetings uh this last couple weeks and months.

Uh you know, Citizens Energy had I think they had their annual board meeting at 7:30 in January on a Monday.

Uh we were there.

Uh I talked to Jeff Harrison, the CEO.

It was like I felt like I was talking to God almost because he's so so protected from conversation.

And uh, you know, I grew up swimming in Eagle Creek, and that's my home park, and uh and uh people are showed up ready to go.

Uh you know, I was at the the data center conversation with American Tower uh last week or two weeks ago.

Those four people got ran out of the room, they got jeered and taunted as they were leaving who was there was pretty awesome.

Uh uh, and we want to protect our forests that are water, and these these data centers are just a disaster for what uh we're trying to do in terms of protecting our climate.

So please be a moral voice, a clear voice.

Let's just get this right.

Uh last last point, Madison, Wisconsin just called got a moratorium passed.

I think it's one of the largest cities.

So I think uh this city council could be the largest city in America to call for moratorium in a six at least a six-month year moratorium.

So let's be that voice.

Thank you very much.

Thank thank thank you to everyone who came out tonight.

Um as I mentioned, um, this is uh uh fluid process.

We're we're really digging into this.

Your comments are meaningful.

Uh uh I really appreciate them.

Um lots of perspectives out there, and people are taking this very seriously, and they're and they're working through it, and they're looking at all levels of government and trying to understand how do we how do we manage this situation with uh this preponderance of uh um a proliferation rather of data centers.

So this will not be the last time we talk about this.

The the council um uh uh will move forward with um there's multiple uh ideas and um concepts that are being um moved forward.

There's a lot of uh legal analysis that has to be done and a lot of uh consideration that has to happen.

And so I I can tell you that there will be action uh that will take place um in the in the not too distant future, and we hope that everyone here who has been here with such passion um uh stays connected and when you see those those new um proposals come forward that you come and you weigh in on them and uh and you and you stay stay working with us as we as we work to to address this issue.

Now I was gonna say that was the end of our meeting, but I promise Councilor Boots he'd have the opportunity to say one last comment about the next parks meeting.

So councillor Bootsy.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Uh just want to get the word out next um Thursday on the 5th at 5 30 in this room.

Our parks committee is gonna hear a presentation from the Eagle Creek Advisory Committee talking about exactly the leap uh Eagle Creek Reservoir Project.

So if you want to hear, and we might even invite additional people for the agenda.

So next Thursday, 5 30 here in the public assembly room, we're gonna talk specifically about the Leap Eagle Creek project.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Thank you, Chairman.

Chairman Boots.

Um and with uh hearing no objections, we are adjourned.