Good evening, everybody.

Welcome to the Parks and Recreation Committee meeting of the Indianapolis City County Council.

It is February 5th, 5 30 p.m.

We're going to start this evening's meeting with introductions of our counselor starting on our lower left, Councillor Dilk.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Mike Dilk, District 24.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, Josh Bain, District 21.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair Brian Delini, District 2.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair, Jesse Brown, District 13.

Thank you, Chairman Jessica McCormick, District 16.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Counselor Jarrett Evans representing District 17.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair Frank Maskier, District 19.

And thank you, Mr.

Chairman John Barth, representing District 7.

I'm a guest in the committee tonight.

Thank you.

And I'm Councillor Dan Boots, District 3, and I have the honor of chairing this committee.

Tonight we're going to talk about the Eagle Creek Reservoir Leap Water Project.

We're here for informational purposes.

We're going to have public comment at the end.

All questions come to me.

The public does not ask questions of the presenters.

And we'll proceed that way.

We're going to run a civil meeting.

Please, no talking or loud calls from the audience to disrupt our meeting.

You're welcome to have signs, but please keep anything vocal to a minimum.

We're going to start this evening with a presentation from the Eagle Creek Park Foundation Advisory Committee.

And I see Ms.

Luann Baker and Martin Risch here this evening.

The floor is yours.

Thank you, Councillor Boots.

Good evening, members of the committee.

We appreciate the opportunity to chat with you this evening.

It is a tremendous opportunity that this is the first public discussion of this topic for water and wastewater in Marion County.

And that's huge.

This project has been underway for a very long time.

A number of people have found out about it fairly recently within the last couple of months, ourselves included.

And I know everyone has been working really hard to learn what we can wherever we can from whomever we can to try to be as informed as we'd like to be on a very important topic.

A little bit about who we are as the advisory committee.

We are the oldest friends group in Indy Parks.

We were established in 1972, and the purpose of our group was to advise the city on changes and modifications to the park.

Those have been long-term in scope in nature.

It may be something like they're adding new docks at RICS.

They want to add a new attraction called Go 8, but they want to attach things to the trees.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

The water company would like to change the algicide treatment that they use in the reservoir.

They would come and talk to our group and explain why the change was necessary, what may or may not be the impact and answer any questions that we would have.

We also worked on the deer management plan that really helped to get the ecosystem back in balance, which was a big deal really about 10 years ago.

Just a few of the things that we have talked about.

Our committee is composed of all of the different user groups you can think of in the park.

We are bikers and hikers and walkers and voters and sailors and cyclists and all of the different people who love to enjoy the park.

Our birding community is extremely strong.

I know there are a number of folks who are here who have voiced concerns and issues.

The water company came along about 10 years later.

Very convenient location for them to build the plan on Moses and to provide water for the growing community on the northwest side of Indianapolis.

There are some contractual stipulations that come along with that water.

There is also a provision for bird migration whereby the pool is lowered in the fall for the many migratory birds that are passing through.

The park itself was designated and dedicated in 1972.

We are one of the largest municipal parks in the country.

We have more than a million three visitors, which is more than many of the national parks.

And perhaps importantly for you as the committee, we also contribute 1.4 million dollars to the annual Indy Parks budget.

We're very proud of the activities that happen there, the national rowing championships most recently attracting thousands of people to Indianapolis and to the park.

How did we get involved in this particular topic?

Where did this opportunity come from?

In early October, we were contacted by some of the members of the foundation and neighbors around the park and said, hey, we just got this easement notice, and what the heck does it mean?

The easement letter was very vague.

It said simply that they were running citizens was going to run a high-pressure water line to supply water to the Leap District in Indianapolis.

I'm sorry, in Lebanon.

They came to us with questions.

We didn't have any information on the project, started to do a deep vibe to see what we could learn, what information was publicly available.

That took us to a number of places, a number of sources, a lot of phone calls in trying to find out what was available.

We did find a website that citizens had set up, which was very helpful.

That led to a number of questions with some additional information.

The website said that the increased water production to send 25 million gallons of water per day.

The increased water production would come from two facilities.

MOSIS, the plant on the 56th Street on the west side, and the White River North plant on the northeast side of Indianapolis off of Hazledale, and I believe 116th Street.

As we began asking questions, we looked for two things.

Number one was transparency, and the other was math.

A lot of the information that has come forward on this project has come just in the last couple of months, and I think that's important for all of us to try to remember.

We continue to learn literally with every conversation and every interaction.

And as we've gone along, obviously there are a lot of new information, informational points that have occurred.

Initially, I think our takeaways were a little surprising in that this is a roughly a $1 billion infrastructure project combined with the water activities and the wastewater side.

Interestingly, citizens chose not to use some of the more traditional elements of engaging with the public on this project, even though the planning for the project seemingly had been underway for a long time.

If you think about how you're normally notified of a lot of things, let's use the Deep Tunnel project that just got completed in Indianapolis.

People knew there was a project, people knew there was a schedule, people knew that there was a plan, people knew how they were potentially going to be impacted.

This experience for most of us on the Northwest side has been a little bit different.

No bill stuffers, no outreach to the home homeowner associations, no information in the newsletters, and a lot of empty spaces in terms of having some prior knowledge and information so that when people got that easement notice, there was some idea of what the plan was and where the plan was going.

So it's not a new thing in conjunction with the LEEP project.

The IEDC and folks with the state seem to look at the resources of the park as a commodity.

There's water in and there's water out.

And I think most of us as park users believe that those are natural resources that we appreciate.

It's why we chose to live where we live.

It's why we choose to recreate where we do.

And it is a very important facet of why we choose Indianapolis and why we choose the space that we're in.

The robust word that you may hear today to talk about your water system is important.

Citizens does has done a really good job with the overall system in Indianapolis.

They've made a tremendous number of improvements over the years in making it more efficient in making it more sustainable and making it serve its customers better.

And that is a very important 24-hour through 165-day a year job that most of us take for granted.

In this instance, we are piping 25 million gallons of water a day north to Lebanon.

And if that's kind of an arbitrary number, 25 million, that's roughly the amount of water that the city of Evansville uses in a given day.

Just to kind of give you apples to apples in that amount.

One of the challenges for neighbors and people who are looking at easements, some 475 of them roughly, is that they have been told they may not connect a service line to that water system that's flowing north, despite the billion dollar price tag that's going into creating that set of infrastructure.

For nine businesses in Lebanon, that's great.

They're going to have the business, the water that they need to conduct their business.

For those who live along the way, it's a little frustrating for them to not understand why they're not able to tie in.

Citizens will explain the rationale for that to you a little later.

The other thing we learned most importantly in this entire discussion is that a lot of other people share our concerns.

People love the park.

People love Indianapolis.

It's not just the citizens and residents we have, but the regionality of the park in general.

Both citizens in Lebanon have been very gracious in meeting with us as a committee.

Citizens sat down with us in early December.

What we learned initially was that the 100 million gallon a day number, which was the number that had been publicly shared for years, about the need for what would supply that Lebanon economic development project.

Citizens told us was down to 25.

That's a massive change and shift in terms of water supply overall.

They maintain the 25 million gallons they're looking for today will be all that the economic development project will need.

We will not see Mission Creep.

We will not see additional requests for water.

That will be the maximum amount that they'll be shipping up there today, tomorrow, the next day as they build out the system and ramp up to that 25 MGD level.

One to three million gallons of water is their anticipated need in addition to what they already take out of Eagle Creek.

We'll let them explain how those numbers and processes work.

But again, one to three million gallons would be coming out of Eagle Creek in addition to what they normally pull today.

They're adding a new water tower at 56th and Lafayette Road on the southeast side of the street.

Sorry, citizens can pull out of that reservoir maximum on a daily basis.

That's a 50-year contract and it expires this summer.

We're very interested in what that maximum number can will continue to be since citizens is expanding their plant from 24 million gallons a day to 30.

The other thing we found out from the citizens' meeting is that Lebanon Utilities would be responsible for all of the wastewater services.

When we met with Lebanon, we learned a lot about the expansion of the plant, which they'll talk about tonight.

The plant today just charges into Prairie Creek, which is a small stream in Boone County that flows into the Walbash Basin.

It does not flow towards us in the White River Basin or Eagle Creek.

We learned that all of the new industrial flows from the Leap project will be coming south to us.

That discharge point is just west of the bridge that crosses Lafayette Road and Eagle Creek runs underneath.

The outfall would be on the north side of the shore between Lafayette Road and I-65.

That is directly in the mouth of the reservoir.

It's actually technically park property, which comes down that stretch from the north, and the outfall is located.

If you know where the Tox drop building is there as you go north, the outfall would be just behind it again, between it and I-65.

They're going to talk to you a lot tonight about their system, why it works, how it works, what you need to be concerned about.

I spent 20 years in the water and wastewater industry.

I know there's a certain ick factor with wastewater.

I think that's a normal reaction.

It's also a very important process, again, that's handled by professionals that most of us take for granted.

Some of the things we'd like to point out to you before they get into the nitty-gritty of their system is that most wastewater treatment plants discharge into a moving stream, into a river, into a creek, into something that is an actual flowing body.

Why does that matter?

Because that discharge coming into the stream is going to have some additional dilution, it's going to have some aeration, it's going to have some natural cleaning that happens in that process.

It's also going to make sure that all of that flow and those potential contaminants, trace contaminants that are still in the wastewater, are going to flow down the stream.

What we have with Eagle Creek is that instead of flowing down the stream, as in most cases with most outfalls, this water is going to come down and it's going to pool into a reservoir.

Slow moving, big bucket, big pail, not getting that additional cleaning, not having that flow, and more importantly, having a place where contaminants can fall out of the water into the reservoir, potentially leading to some long-term ecological impacts.

The other thing about wastewater treatment is that despite the best programs, the best plans, the best technology, the best training, things happen.

If you've been in Indianapolis long enough, you remember the guide fish kill in 1999.

It killed four and a half million fish and it wiped out the river for nearly 20 years.

That is a moving body of water that has the ability to regenerate, restore itself, and get back on its feet.

We have a bucket, a pail in one spot.

That recovery would be substantially more difficult.

Our goal is risk mitigation.

Our goal is what's the safest and best place for an outfall.

Our goal is to continue to have some conversations about where all these things are happening.

The other concern we have to do with nutrients that come with that additional flow, particularly phosphorus.

Marty's going to talk more specifically about phosphorus, but we have a long-term blue-green algae problem in that reservoir.

If you've seen it, you know what it looks like.

If you get your water from Eagle Creek, you know it has some kind of an earthy, musty taste during some months in the summer that are due to that blue-green algae.

Perfectly safe to drink.

They have the treatment plant, they do their thing, but it does require treatment of the reservoir and chemicals added.

It does require additional treatment that will happen in the plant.

Both of those things cost money.

More phosphorus is going to need more algae, more algae is going to need more treatment, more treatment is going to cost more money.

Are they going to send a separate special bill up to Lebanon to cover those costs?

Or are the ratepayers going to look at how we deal with that algae situation here in Indianapolis?

My colleague Marty Rish is going to take the next few slides, walk you through some of the outfall questions and things that we have.

We're a little backwards in that we're going to talk to you before they're going to tell you what you're actually doing.

But hopefully we can show you some pictures and help you along in terms of where we are.

I'm Martin Rich.

I'm a member of the Eagle Creek Park Advisory Committee.

I've been with that group for 10 years.

I'm a retired ecosystem scientist, hydrologist, a water scientist.

I was a civil servant for 40 years.

I thank you for your civil service.

Spent about three decades with the U.S.

Geological Survey and was a section chief with the Indiana Department of Environmental Management's water program before that.

The first map that I want to show you is a map of the north end of Eagle Creek.

Now I'm going to be kind of detail-oriented here, and I hope that these facts are useful to you.

The green area on the map that's represented by the city's geographic information system property map locator.

All that green area, if you click on it, you find that the property is owned by the Indianapolis Department of Parks and Recreation, i.e.

Eagle Creek Park.

And Eagle Creek Park then extends clear up to 79th Street, so upstream of the blue triangle on Eagle Creek where the proposed outfall for the Lebanon wastewater is going to be.

15 million gallons a day of wastewater into this area.

Now, as I as I show on the lower left, that set of arrows is going to enclose a part of the north end of the lake where the area where the wastewater is going to be discharged into Eagle Creek Park is a highly sensitive area from an environmental standpoint.

And then the other thing that I will uh move to in another slide is that red box, which is a place where we can talk about water levels and the wildlife that's going to be affected.

But do remember everybody talks about Eagle Creek as land and water.

This water is part of Eagle Creek Park next slide.

When you stand on the bridge on Lafayette Road and look into the lake, you see where Lebanon is going to discharge their wastewater, it's a really highly sensitive area in the park because there are wetlands, there's shallow water, and there's seasonal mud flats.

Now when the water goes up, you may not see that part of the lake bottom, but when the water level comes down, those mud flats emerge.

And these places are really rich in the food for all the fish and the wildlife that live there, plus they are nesting habitat for a lot of the wildlife.

And as an ecosystem scientist, I will tell you water levels, water temperature, and water quality can greatly affect the numbers and the types and the diversity, number of species of the aquatic plants and organisms that feed the fish and the turtles and the frogs and the birds and the mammals of Eagle Creek Park.

Next slide.

Now that that red red box is my depiction of this lake stage gauge.

And it's not important that you can read this six-foot panel, although if you were standing on the coffer dam at the bird sanctuary along the banks of Eagle Creek in the park, you would see this.

Now the mud flats that I mentioned are in the background.

And you can see the birds at the top of the slide on the right or the picture on the right.

And the water level is as low as it tends to get in this picture.

So seasonally the mud flats are exploded exposed, they're above water when the water level is lowest, but then as the water level begins to creep up, you can you can see the point where they will still be present, and then at normal pool, you don't see those mud flats.

And the water level in that lake only varies about three feet during during the year, and seasonally it's low, and then because it's a a flood control reservoir, there are times that a lot of water comes in there.

And at the very top of that white panel, when we had our flood in 2013, the water was so deep that that thing would have been underwater.

Now, Eagle Creek Park is among four places in Indiana that have the most numbers of bird species.

It's very diverse.

It's a great sign of a healthy ecosystem.

And about 300 bird species have been seen there.

About half of them come through and stop off for a while and move on, but some are residents, and about 24 of those species are endangered.

And at least 50 or more species rely on these mud flats.

That's where they stop and they feed when they migrate.

And about 42 of them are depending on the fish.

So any time you take away the home and the food for an animal, then it has to go someplace else.

And those places are getting fewer and fur farther between.

So it's sensitive to take what you take out and how much is present there in these important areas.

And so we would say that reliable seasonal lake water levels must continue.

These birds show up and they still want that place where they have traditionally stopped in their migration.

Next slide.

So, as a hydrologist, how can we know what will happen if more water is removed from the lake?

And if new effluent is discharged into the lake.

Well, I think we need some modern baseline information.

We do not know how much water that container will hold.

Reservoir is about 56 years old, you know, filled up in about 1970, and we all know from studies done by the U.S.

Geological Survey, for example, at Geist and Morse, that lakes age.

They fill in with sediment that's washed off the land.

And when the water's flowing and it's carrying that sediment and it hits the still body of water, which is a lake, it drops it out.

So lakes fill in.

And we would like to know how much water is available because it would be very helpful to be able to have a budget, just like your checking account.

How much money do we have?

How much is coming in?

How much can I spend?

And that water budget would be something that would rely on the amount of water that the container holds, and then how much is being pumped out, how much is coming in, and things like evaporation and precipitation all factor into that.

But what I'm interested in is being able to model and ask questions, particularly about the worst-case scenario.

What if it's a drought?

What if it's not raining?

What if the lake is at its lowest point?

What if everybody's trying to water their lawn and there's a contractual obligation to another city to supply a lot of water?

Is there going to be a consequence to that kind of situation that would be harmful to the people that love to use Eagle Creek for recreation, the people that live on Eagle Creek as residents, and for all the fish, the birds, and the the rest of the wildlife that depends on that.

So I would I would suggest that this is a great time because the timeline after 2026 takes us out to about 2031, as you will hear, when all this build-out is going to happen to be able to withdraw more water from the lake and put more water into the lake.

Okay.

The last thing I wanted to share with you is we have alternatives.

Now I've tried to put a pretty busy map up here for you, and I had to make this for myself because when Lebanon utilities talked to us about the places that they considered putting their wastewater outfall and decided the one in Eagle Creek Park was the best one.

I realized that there were other places closer to Lebanon.

And the Lebanon wastewater plant is in the top left of this diagram here, this map.

And although there are some permitted wastewater discharges into Eagle Creek, the nearest ones, you know, five miles upstream, and there is even a permitted discharge on a little tributary of Eagle Creek, known as Little Eagle Creek, way up there at Westfield.

So it's not unprecedented for a small tributary of this larger stream to receive substantial discharge of treated effluent.

And I think the thing that we are are advocating is that that whole selection of outfall sites be revisited and be sure that the only possible one is not Eagle Creek Park, but some other location or some division of the of the effluent flow so that that sensitive part of the park is not paying that long-term price for the the arrangements on sending water north and bringing water back.

Blue-green algae is a term that Luann used, the USGS and the other scientists commonly use harmful algal blooms.

This is the last thing I'll say about phosphorus, but if Lebanon discharges at the rate that they've discussed, 15 million gallons a day, and they meet the water quality standard of one milligram per liter of phosphorus, then in a year's time, 45,689 pounds of phosphorus is coming into the lake.

Why do we care about phosphorus?

It's such an essential element.

We all take phosphorus in every day and we excrete that phosphorus.

Phosphorus is just part of the system, and phosphorus is what drives the ability for lakes to generate these massive blooms of various organisms that include algae and bacteria.

And they make that green scum that you've seen in places.

And believe me, in the Midwest, there are a lot of lakes that have this, and it's a very difficult problem to manage.

Now they are managing at Eagle Creek by more and more treatments to keep that algae in check.

But a harmful algal bloom is a dangerous thing because it can not only irritate your skin if you get in contact with it.

It can also harm your pets, and if you ingest it, you can really get really sick.

The toxins that come out of harmful algal blooms are known to be problems.

And there are some major cities who had to deal with that.

We hope ours is not one of those.

But now's the time to think about what that load of phosphorus is, and if there's a way to keep it from getting to the point where this is what the lake looks like more often than it already does.

Thank you so much for listening to this science guy talk to you.

A couple of things to move through before we close.

Thank you.

Not used to this.

A couple of things that moved through before we close.

Again, the limited amount of time that we've had to look at this and the conversations we've been having.

We fully well understand the state has invested more than $15 million in studying this question.

They paid more than 10 million dollars to Black and Beach.

After Black and Beach's contract ended, they paid additional consulting money to send to citizens.

They have invested a lot in trying to figure out these questions.

We do not expect that a small group of folks with a fairly extensive network is going to resolve this overnight and do it so quickly.

However, things we'd like for everyone to think about, number one, are moving that outfall.

There was an original suggestion from the IEDC for that outfall to flow either to White River or to Eagle Creek Reservoir.

We'd like to revisit that White River option, learn more about it, and learn why.

That is no longer on the table.

Is it possible to divert that flow to both places?

Is it possible, understanding that there are more complicated compliance issues?

However, from an environmental perspective, it would very much mitigate direct damage potentially to the reservoir if something happened.

The third option is to move, as Marty talked about, move that outfall farther up Eagle Creek so that there again is some of that natural cleansing that's going to happen.

It's not all going to pile into the reservoir at one point like a fire hose into the most sensitive area of the park.

We'd very much also like to encourage the state to look at using LEAP as an innovation district, not just for business, but what about water and water reuse?

Let's talk about closed loop systems.

Let's talk about water up minimizing water back minimizing.

Let's have those discussions with intention.

Let's have those with the companies that want to locate there.

It's important for us with the water system in Indianapolis.

It's important for them.

It's important for the future.

Let's start those conversations now.

We had a good conversation with Governor Braun yesterday.

He seemed amenable to those potentials and trying to see what kind of conversations we can have.

The third point we'd like to offer is to limit the amount of additional withdrawals from Eagle Creek Reservoir.

We know the new contract is pending.

We know that it's out there, we know that it's up for discussion.

Currently, citizens pay more money for that water when the water level in the reservoir is low.

What we'd also like to think about is can we consider contract provisions that would also charge them additional money if they're sending more water to Lebanon than what they have anticipated and what they have scheduled?

We'd also like you to think about some sort of public notice provision so that we're aware of exactly how much water is coming out of the reservoir and potentially where it's going.

Again, we're talking one to three million gallons a day.

Reservoir can tolerate that.

What's happening in exchange for that one to three additional going out is they're graciously gifting us 15 to 25 million back in return in wastewater.

Again, back to the math, those numbers don't exactly add up.

If the water is in fact coming from across the Indianapolis water system and the entire White River watershed, let's send one to three million the water that's coming back into Eagle Creek, similar to what you've taken out, and the rest of it should go into the watershed in other places.

If you're taking it out of the watershed, then let's put it back into the whole watershed.

Don't send it all back to Eagle Creek.

Overall, um, next to last slide, we do feel that Eagle Creek is being penalized for the site selection that was made at Lebanon in the middle of a water desert.

Um they've all worked really hard again to try to put these pieces together and find a way to make this this entire project work top to bottom.

Um the lack of transparency has very honestly raised a lot of anxiety and concerns.

Um it didn't necessarily have to be that way.

Um we have a lot of neighbors who still have not signed easement documents, still have some questions, um, and a lot of park users as well uh would like to better understand what's going on.

There is still time for decisions.

Um we have learned most importantly that this has been a very unifying topic for a lot of us, which is unusual in the climate in which we all live today.

Um that's something that we appreciate.

We hope that you, as the parks committee, uh with what you talk about and the people that you see every day appreciate that as well.

Uh, we would also like to encourage you as a council to consider what may be potential ordinances or resolutions that you can uh think about in terms of best managing the water to and from Eagle Creek Park in a way that protects the ecosystem that benefits the park users and makes sure that it maintains and remains the park that we all care and love.

Thank you.

Thank you, Ms.

Baker.

I should have mentioned earlier.

Anybody interested in publicly speaking this evening, please make sure you sign up on the sheet down here at the lecture.

Um we'll go with some questions from any committee members.

Council Muscari.

Thank you, Chairman.

On the wastewater that's coming in, is it treated at all?

Is it treated somewhat?

Yes, absolutely, it is treated wastewater.

What will happen, and the folks behind us will explain very carefully.

Um businesses there will be required to have pre-treatment permits, so before that water even leaves their facility and goes into the sewer, they will have to meet some treatment levels before it goes into the sewer to be conveyed to Lebanon uh for actual treatment.

The state will issue a permit.

That permit will say how much of what kinds of different contaminants can remain in the water.

There will be some fairly strict levels because there is at times zero flow in that stream in Eagle Creek.

So if there's nothing there to dilute the water, there's a lot more sensitivity about what's coming down the pipe and what's actually going to hit.

So, yes, it is treated wastewater, and we'll we'll let the wastewater folks explain that.

Thank you.

Fair question.

Yes, Councilman McCormick.

Thank you, Chairman.

Um, I just want to talk more about the water after it's treated.

Um, so we know one of the businesses that's going in is a pharmaceutical company.

Uh and there are articles from the National Institute of Health, the EPA, and the USGS, so the US G uh geological survey that say like pharmaceuticals are not removed in traditional wastewater treatment.

So that is confirmed, and there are many scientific articles about that.

In addition, we talked about the phosphorus, right?

So that is not removed as well.

And there are other personal care products.

There are POPs, which are persistent organic pollutants, like PCBs that may not be removed.

So again, if we have a secondary or initial um wastewater treatment from the individual companies, these are things that are still concerning because not just for us as humans, but again, our wildlife as well and our ecological environment.

Um we also have a concern about heavy metals, um, heavy metals and microplastics.

So there are a long list of items that I have a huge concern about on the west side, which is my district uh represents the west, I represent the west side, and part of that is Speedway.

Uh Speedway actually uses for part of the year their water from Eagle Creek.

So their water when the algae bloom, we talk about the algae and the phosphorus that can be harmful.

Um that is water that those residents are consuming.

I know there's a conversation right now about the water issue that they're having right now this week, so that's the side topic.

But um, so this is something that like there are humans in Indianapolis that will be impacted by this, right?

That they are ingesting this is the water that's coming out of their tax.

So this is extremely concerning.

Um my water that comes into my house is water that comes from Eagle Creek.

So I not not just for myself and my family, but for all of the residents that I represent.

Um, this is just one of the many like items that I have not got, I have not received sufficient responses to, so I know we have more presenters coming, and I will be wanting more information on that.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Thank you.

Uh Councillor Evans.

Thank you, Chairman.

Um to the communications, can you speak to when you first became aware of this and you began to communicate with CEG?

Talk to us a little bit about that.

What was it like?

I mean, this being the first public, I guess, meeting that you've had with the back and forth that will happen here in a minute with them.

Um what were their responses to you?

Um let me start in this way with the neighbors who received the easement notices.

Um they had attempted to reach out to citizens, uh, particularly there was a group on Moore Road uh who received eat some notices and were trying to figure out exactly what it meant uh in a larger scale picture.

Um they had some issue uh getting response from citizens.

Senator J.D.

Ford stepped in as well uh to try to be a conduit.

Um citizens was responsive, uh did come out and meet with those neighbors uh, I believe in early November to have a conversation to answer questions uh about how those things were going and what was happening with the overall project and how it impacted their particular neighborhood.

Umore Road runs between 86th Street and Lafayette Road, uh kind of up in the bucolic, if you will, rural ish area that used to be very much common in um in Pike Township.

Um beyond that, um, when we have reached out to citizens and again and and set up a meeting uh for them to come and chat with us, they've they have willingly done that.

Uh we've had a couple of additional conversations and in fact are working to schedule um yet another one as we one of the things with this process, the more you learn sometimes the more questions that you have uh in trying to get information.

Our big push when we met with them on the fourth is that we thought it was very important to hold a public meeting so the public at large could better understand what the plans were, how they were happening, and what kind of order and what it meant for the community.

And what was their response to that?

Um we had a meeting scheduled last Monday that unfortunately the snow took away from us.

I think that was um more than a month in planning, and I think we were all disappointed that that that did not come to fruition because we we had a lot of folks in the community who are who are very interested in learning more.

That meeting has been rescheduled for next Tuesday, so that will be another opportunity uh for both Lebanon and citizens to tell people what their plans are, what they're thinking and why, and then for the community as well to have some interaction and ask some questions.

Thank you.

That is disappointing from a public trust to take that long to communicate and have an open public meeting.

Uh Mr.

Chairman, just one other question to the gentleman next to you.

You spoke of the algae potentially releasing 40 over 45,000 pounds of phosphorus.

There's current algae blooms that happen today.

So what is that compared to as far as how much phosphorus would already be in the reservoir to create that those algae blooms?

Yeah, I mean, there's phosphorus in wastewater treatment effluent.

You can't get it all out unless you really push the technology beyond where conventionally is effective.

And so some of the phosphorus that's finding its way into that system has has arrived over time from other outside sources coming down the stream.

It starts to build up in the sediment.

And as a lake um changes its its uh temperature regime where cold water is deep and warm waters on the surface, and then it shifts, it stirs that phosphorus up in the water column, and then the phosphorus is available for the organisms that use it to uh process their their living, and therefore the the blooms are are are triggered by phosphorus that not only came in you know this year, but that came in many years back and is still in the system.

That's one of the difficult problems with trying to manage it in the first place is it's it's it's a very conservative element that stays in the system because it's bound to the sediment, and then as the sediment gets stirred up, then there's there's the phosphorus.

So and another thing I can tell you, it's not all coming, phosphorus is not all coming from agriculture.

Phosphorus is a really important agricultural fertilizer, but I actually did a study when I was with the survey that took um a decade worth of of the state's monitoring data and looked at phosphorus and a bunch of other things that they monitor.

What we saw was the signature from the cities on phosphorus were actually larger than those of the uh farmland um that was contributing water upstream of the city.

So, you know, there's everybody's got some part to plug in this phosphorus story.

Would you have any estimates though?

What uh what would be the amount that's contributed just naturally today?

Well, I don't know if I would use the term naturally, but but I can I can say that we could calculate the load if we were able to get the phosphorus that is reported in the outfalls of the say the three wastewater plants and their flow.

You can make an estimate.

That's all I presented was a simple load, concentration times flow.

But that load, you know, that pounds per year, that's a big number.

Thank you, sir.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Sure.

I would also add, Mr.

Chairman.

Yes.

Thank you for calling this meeting and allowing this opportunity to hear it.

Thank you.

If I may, Ms.

Baker, are there not a couple of public meetings coming up, maybe even next week or the following week that going to discuss this topic as well?

Yes, on Tuesday night at the new Augusta Academy.

Uh doors open at 6.30.

The meeting will actually start at 7.

Uh you'll see the same cast of characters with citizens in Lebanon also presenting information to folks.

Uh there will be uh question and answer with attendees uh permitted as well.

Uh so we're hoping again that that's uh a good information exchange for people who want to learn more, who have their own questions and and would like to pose them to both utilities.

Great.

And I have a question uh I'll let Councillor Delaney go.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair High Lou Ann, good to see you.

Um I know that phosphorus is an issue across the entire White River watershed.

So there's and there's phosphorus already in the reservoir, which you've said, so it's leaving loaded with phosphorus.

And then you know, Councilman Cormac mentioned a whole bunch of other stuff that could be in the water.

So do we know, because it's you know, like technically, if it just goes up and comes back, it should come back with the same amount of phosphorus.

So do we know what is going to be put into the water as they're using it that needs to be treated in the wastewater so that we can definitively say that there are going to be increased levels of X, Y, and Z, I don't want to say chemicals, but substances in the water.

Part of the challenge, and you you you raise a good point.

Part of the challenge right now is that there are only two sites of the nine that they have at leap that have actually been filled.

We don't know what types of businesses are going to go into those other locations.

Um again, the the businesses will have, if necessary, pre-pro-treatment permits that they'll be required, and we'll let the technical folks explain that.

Um the permits that are issued by IDEM lists specific components uh in the interest of protecting the waterway.

As Councillor McCormick pointed out, there are a lot of things that remain in that water even after it it it it it's going to be treated.

So do we know everything that that may be headed our way?

No.

Um do we know that there are normally permit processes that are there to protect us in most cases?

Yes.

Um is it a perfect system?

No.

And and again, what we are concerned about is we're not moving into that flowing stream.

We're moving into a place where some of those contaminants may fall out, may take up residence in the silt in the reservoir over time.

Um what are those components?

Um, you've got more techie people who will give you more technical answers.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Thank you.

I think this presentation was a really awesome overview, and I appreciate that.

I have two questions or two kind of sets of questions, and these might honestly better be served for other guests later on.

So if you know it's not your role to answer, please just tell me that.

The first is you mentioned that there is a contract, I think you said with the city, the withdrawal contract that's coming up soon.

It sounded like maybe you didn't have all the details about this yet either, but I was curious, like who signs that contract, what's the process?

Is there going to be public oversight?

Have you found any of those answers yet?

Um I can tell you what we've asked and and and what we've been told.

Um the city owns the reservoir, therefore the city owns the water.

The water company pulls water out of the reservoir to produce treated drinking water that they then sell to customers in central Indiana.

When the water company originally said, hey, we want to take water out and make treated drinking water, they signed a document between the city and the water company at the time on what the maximum amount of water that could be withdrawn every day would be.

That number, according to the mayor's office, is 19.8 million gallons a day today.

That plant today is scheduled or rated to produce about 24 million gallons.

They're expanding that plant to 30.

What else can we talk about in addition to the contract?

And then are there restrictions on what happens if the water gets too low?

If we get to the point in the summer where water drops below a certain level, citizens has to pay more for that water because it is going to have a potential impact.

We don't know what the new provisions of the new contract might be.

We don't know when it's going to be signed.

We have been told that it is up for renewal this summer.

It would not be a council decision, but because of evidently the amount of money, and you all know more about this than I do, but that the approval would in fact come from the board, not from the council.

Thank you.

That is very helpful.

Second question, this might be even even more in the left field here, but I appreciate you mentioning that this is kind of a unifying issue, and I found that from my constituents as well.

There's people who disagree with nine out of ten political stances I have, but very much agree with me about uh the leap district.

And from kind of all spectrums, across the spectrum I should say, of politics.

I I hear people asking what is the connection between some of the IEDC corruption that's been featured in the front page of the Indy Star, the Three Kings story, et cetera, and this LEAP district.

Because I think, you know, I know you met with Governor Braun uh recently and said that was an amenable meeting.

That's great.

It really seems like this predates his time and had to do with the last Administration's appointments, which really a lot of my constituents don't feel very comfortable with any of those decisions made with those folks.

I guess I'm not quite sure what my question is, but have you have you uncovered any of that?

Do you know how separate all of this decision making was from some of the stuff that is uh run of out of the newspapers?

Counselor, let me answer your question in this way.

Uh we are an environmental organization that is interested in protecting our park and our reservoir.

The questions we have asked have been environmental in nature, with a focus on things that matter to the park, things that matter to the environment, things that matter to our park users, and things that matter to our neighbors.

Um I will say, in in all honesty, and again, this is not a political statement, but it is a statement of where we are today.

We know that there are fewer regulators and inspectors at IDEM because of state cutbacks and the choices that are being made.

We know that there are fewer Federal regulators and inspectors, because they too have taken a different track in how they view the environment.

We know that the EPA administrator has told businesses that if you have a problem meeting your NPDES permit, the discharge permit that businesses have to discharge into a flowing stream.

Call us at EPA and we'll waive your permit.

We know that as recently as I think a couple of weeks ago, there was a front page article in the STAR with a pledge from the IDM Commissioner to remove as many regulations as possible.

We know there's a Senate bill that's moving through today that would give the IDEM Commissioner the ability that he or she may follow enforcement actions rather than he or she will or shall.

That is not a political statement.

That is an observation of the climate that we're in today, in particular as we're looking about discharge levels and components that affect the water and the quality of life of that reservoir.

It is a reality in that sense that is with us, like it or not.

I hate to say that's helpful information because it's kind of terrifying information, but I appreciate it nonetheless.

Thank you.

Counselor and Chairman Boots.

Thank thank you for being here, and what a tremendous uh wealth of knowledge you both have on the subject that's very specific and most people probably wouldn't have that level of expertise.

Just in terms of your own feelings, um, do you feel hopeful at this point in the process with respects to an exit ramp?

And when I say an ex ramp, I just mean some form of agreeable solution because it sounds to me like you might be happy or uh glad to see this axed completely with respects to the Eagle Creek Reservoir, but it it does sounds to me like there are some parameters that you have set that you might be agreeable to if they wanted to move forward.

Is that a fair assessment?

Um in your mind, is this something that there's just no way or there is a way, but it needs to be done in this type of setting.

I need guardrails, for sure.

We need alternatives.

Sorry.

Yeah, we're suggesting some guardrails that perhaps you can help us with and some alternatives that might not directly affect the body of water in Eagle Creek Park.

But these are not decisions that that we can make, of course.

These decisions were made by other entities some time ago, and they've invested some money in a particular solution.

But if there's any room for alternatives and and some kind of restrictions that would protect the park, we hope that could happen, because I don't think either one of us are so unrealistic that we we believe we can undo the bigger picture actions of the State of Indiana that already already expended lots and lots of taxpayer dollars.

Is that what you're asking?

Yeah, just in other words, that the the the way that this has played out so far and what's currently on the table, it's not an all-or-nothing type of issue for you folks.

In other words, it it's not that we are unwilling to work with folks, obviously you've made many attempts, but but if these folks want to be partners with Eagle Creek, the neighbors, and those who who go to the park, one of the top five parks in Indianapolis, that then this is what they would need to do for you folks to be comfortable.

So you're you're willing to work, you're willing to listen, you're willing to provide your expertise, and you're you're hoping that they come back to you and get closer to where you are.

And I think that this meeting, as uh Leader Evans said, it's a shame it's just now happening, but kudos to you and the many people here today who are making it happen.

And uh and I think it's really incredible when you see that neighbor power on full display as it is tonight.

You ask if if if we're hopeful, and and and I think the answer to that is yes.

I mean, obviously there's realism in terms of how far down the road this thing has already traveled.

Uh but there are still opportunities to have discussions.

There are still opportunities to consider other alternatives.

We take it at good faith with the conversations that we're having uh with both of these parties in the moment.

The fact that we're here tonight in front of a governmental body who is talking about this issue uh in Marion County is a positive thing.

Um so we appreciate the chairman's time, we appreciate your time.

Um we appreciate all of the people who have lifted their voices in support of the park.

I I failed to mention, although it's on the screen, uh one of our neighbors who lives near the park, a young woman named Rachel Wolverson started a petition some time ago that today cost 15,000 signatures in support of asking questions about this project and what's what the potential impacts may be for the park.

Um the reactions that we have had from people locally, regionally, nationally, regarding these questions and these issues.

It is encouraging.

Um we don't take anything as absolutes, and again, the conversations aren't ongoing, but we would ask each of you, you know, to contribute your thoughts, your knowledge, your feelings about what's what's the best possible solution.

How do we make the most of giving an economic development project what they need to succeed, and at the same time protecting this thing called the park.

Well, thank you so much for what I think was both a very reasonable and rational approach, presentation uh to this issue, and and what I think is the community's effort to reclaim uh this issue and ensure that the park and reservoirs future uh is in the best interest of the community and nobody else above them.

Thank you.

All right.

As a final question, and please answer it in a brief fashion so we could move on.

I was looking back at some of the original application forms of the drinking water state revolving fund loan program.

And I am not an environmental lawyer, but I'm quite impressed or or maybe surprised that you can spell out a $500 million project on five pages that are just checking boxes.

And they describe the this whole project as uh as you could.

So this application is just for a combination of more than 15 projects necessary to supply 25 billion gallons a day of finished water to Lebanon utilities as a source of supply to support the City of Lebanon's growth needs, inclusive of private and economic development projects.

Each of the presented projects are critical to the ability to deliver the capacity of water needed.

Please give us 522 million dollars.

What is wrong with that description?

We had someone explain it in a way that I I thought was rather profound, that they had filled out more paperwork for a $5 reward at uh rebate at Menards than perhaps were contained in some of the applications.

Um they have divided this project overall into 15 different components.

Um the challenge for that from a large regulatory perspective is that the environmental review of each of those projects as stipulated is not the same as the overarching review that would occur if they were all bundled together.

It is not, we've discovered an uncommon process that happens across the country for situations where people are trying to avoid a NEPA review, a federal environmental review uh that's a bit deeper and a beep and a bit broader.

Um they have gone outside of again the regular regulatory process with the IURC, and let me get to that application point because it's not a ratepayer funded project, they do not have to go to the IURC.

They can choose their funding mechanisms they have.

This is a one billion dollar infrastructure project that is not going before the governmental entity that looks at water projects in the state of Indiana.

Um what that means is if your neighbors, if you're one of 475 folks who got easement directives from the utility, and you had a question, because there was no IURC case filed, you didn't have a place to go and ask questions, a place to file a complaint, a place to have a conversation with your government on what's going on and how can they do this and why.

The Office of the Utility Consumer Counselor, they only take complaints and talk to people who have a case filed before the IURC.

So you sort of see the problem.

The IURC also has them required to lay out in advance what's your plan, what's the operating parameters going to be, how are these pieces going to fit together, what's the schedule, all of that's laid out in public view.

Um that is not the case with this project, and they may feel very differently than that.

Um, and I'll certainly allow them their their opportunity to appropriate appropriately explain.

But those guardrails that are normally in place to protect people who deal with the decisions of utilities who care for all of us in their way, but yet when there are questions, those questions need a place to go.

When there are reviews of applications and important documents, they should be broad and encompassing.

When there are environmental reviews that should be required to denote the safety and the protection of our resources, they darn well better be happening.

And so, to your question, counselor, the application you have is for one small sliver of that project.

That's all that we've been able to receive from public records request for the entire operation at this point in time.

All right.

Final comment by Councillor McCormick.

Well, I have one comment, and then I had I know some of my colleagues asked questions that I could maybe address a little bit.

But um, the 700 million dollars for this project, uh I do want to point out that um this revolving door money average like annually per year, they give out 400 million dollars.

So now I know it's not over two-year period, but we're looking at two years worth of this revolving money.

And the problem with that is is that money is now not going to be available for our rural communities who do not have the bonding power and other things that the city of Indianapolis does.

And so our rural communities are gonna lose out on this funding opportunity because we are taking the money from that area.

So that is one of our issues.

Uh and then I will say for the agreement, it does expire July 1st of this year, and the agreement from 19 whatever 50 years ago um was uh signed by the director of public works, the president of the water company at the time, and then officially signed by the mayor.

So it does not come to council.

Thank you.

And Marty and Louyn are final comment.

You sure?

All right.

Ms.

Baker and Mr.

Rish, thank you so much.

Thank you all.

Yes.

Mr.

Chairman.

Yes.

Um I I will uh have to be uh leaving this meeting, and and I typically don't uh make an announcement, Mr.

Chairman, but uh because this is such an important issue, I just wanted to explain that there's uh uh a large neighborhood meeting down in my district in Perry Township with some large uh matters that are affecting District 22.

And so I've committed to speaking there tonight at seven, but I just want to let folks know that I look forward to watching the rest of this committee meeting uh on channel 16 later on, and uh folks have my full support in working on this as a city councilor.

Thank you.

Next, we're gonna hear from the Hoosier Environmental Council by Mr.

Uh Toby Days.

Um slides ready.

Yep, I think so.

Uh all right.

All right.

Uh thank you all for having me tonight.

I'm Toby Days.

I'm the sustainable agriculture director for the Hoosier Environmental Council.

Uh before coming to the Hoosier Environmental Council, I worked 20 years as a source water protection specialist uh where I work with uh community water systems throughout Indiana to help protect their source of drinking water.

And uh the Hoosier Environmental Council, we're a nonprofit organization, uh advocates for protection of Indiana's environment, sustainable use of our natural resources.

Thank you all for the invitation to be here tonight.

Um we do that through a lot of legislative advocacy working with both uh local and state policymakers to make sure we and uh enacting uh policies that protect our environment, but we also engage a lot with our local communities.

We have community members and groups, citizens come to us to uh ask for um information and resources on environmental um impacts that are affecting their communities.

And uh so our main goal is to provide education and resources to better foster a better understanding of some of these environmental impacts that are going on around communities throughout Indiana.

Uh a lot of my talk today is going to be Lou Ann and Marty did a great job, and uh I'm gonna cover a lot of things that they've already covered, so I'll try to to resear this as quick as I can.

And uh so uh the big so the Hoosier Environmental Council, we get a lot of uh requests from community members and citizens about different environmental issues, and uh, over the last couple years or last two years, uh the majority of the high volume of those requests for assistance happen around this leap project, the quantity quality of water issue and the impacts it's gonna have to the environment.

And uh so we've been pretty involved in the especially the last couple months when a lot of folks started to understand that the discharge was going to be into Eagle Creek Reservoir.

And I have this uh study up here just to highlight the how hungry and how much of a demand water is here in central Indiana, and this study was put out Central Indiana Water Study put out in 2020.

Indiana Finance Authority put it out.

Um Jack Whitman with Interra, he said a lot of the water studies uh throughout Indiana, and uh he's the one that helped put this study together.

Uh and this study had a 50 50-year forecast, estimated future demands for the nine counties in central Indiana.

Uh that 50-year forecast was that these nine counties would need an additional 11 million gallons per day to meet the the future demands all the way to 2070.

Uh the study was done six years ago.

They estimated that and this study was done before the leap district was uh publicly announced all the data center boom and uh the high water users demand.

Um you can see that you know just the leap district alone is estimated once it's at full capacity is to use 100 million gallons a day.

Uh we estimated six years ago that the whole six count or nine counties to central Indiana would need 111.

So you can kind of see that we've greatly underestimated the our our demand for water in central Indiana.

So you know, and I think the big thing around this is transparency uh that we've heard with Luann and in Marty.

Uh Citizens Energy Group did a great job five, eight years ago when they were going to do a rate increase in the city here.

Um a year in advance of that rate increase, they were doing billboards and commercials and really informing the public about that rate increase.

Great job.

Um, but we haven't seen that kind of transparency about what's happening around this LEEP project.

Um a lot of entities involved.

So who is it who's responsible for providing that public knowledge of this project?

You know, we had Citizens Energy, we have Lebanon Utilities, we have IE IEDC, we have the City of Indianapolis, Eagle Creek folks.

Uh so there's a lot of entities involved, and there is no centralized hub for this inter information.

So if you wanted to gain information about this, you had to go to different websites, um, different entities to find that information, and it was just very difficult, and it caused a lot of uh misunderstanding, a lot of rumors, a lot of distrust from the public.

And I think that's where the Housion Environmental Council really got involved.

People are looking for answers, looking for information and resources.

Uh so that's how we all got involved.

And just to highlight that uh, you know, the the easement notifications that the 500 property owners received in December notifying them that the pipeline was going through.

A lot of citizens even weren't even aware this project was going to go through their property.

They didn't have a maps, those kind of sort of things.

Uh similarly, the Lebanon utility, they put in the NPDS permit permit uh per millar premier permanent I can't say that word environmental uh report to uh to apply for that NPDS permit to discharge wastewater into the Eagle Creek Reservoir.

Uh they went through that process, uh also held a public meeting, and that meeting was held July 29th of 2025, a year ago from today.

Uh, that was when public had the chance to comment on that discharge.

Uh in the meeting notes in the meeting minutes, there was it was represented that there was zero public in attendance, there was zero public comments at that meeting.

Um you look around today, we got a uh uh quite a few people wanting to know more about this.

Um, and and to citizens and Lebanon Utilities, they did everything that they were required to do.

They put the public notice in the paper, um, informed people in advance.

Uh so they did everything they were supposed to do.

But it was just that we didn't the public didn't know about this project and the details of it.

Uh so that limited the input.

And for that public meeting that Lebanon utilities did for that NPDS permit, those public comments are used by IDEM to help set effort limits and not having that opportunity for public to well, they had the opportunity, just people didn't know about it.

Uh so I think that's one of the big things that the transparency uh we talked about, it's estimated that LEAP is supposed to use a hundred million gallons once it's or a hundred million gallons per day once it's at full capacity.

Uh we know that 25 million is coming from Indianapolis or citizens, but we don't know whether where the rest of that is coming from.

So that unknown still has a lot of people uh questioning.

Uh we know that there's two manufacturers up there at LEAP now, but we talked about we don't know who else is gonna come there.

So uh in the state we have no limits or policies regulating increase in water withdrawals.

You know, if you can put a pipe in it, you can take as much as you want, really.

Um the decisions that are made around this project and around Eagle Creek, not only impacts Eagle Creek Reservoir and citizens of Indianapolis, but all of central Indiana and could put and could uh put the precedence on how we use and water and manage our water throughout the state of Indiana.

Um so it's a really important project that we're deciding making decisions on.

Um, and I think you know the citizens have done a great job of expanding the capacity of their system.

I have no doubt that not a whole lot of concerns that they're going to be able to meet that 25 million gallons going up north per day.

But it's that unknown from future.

Where's that future water come from?

Is it gonna are you know, is the contract that's going to be signed this summer gonna allow them to increase those withdrawals.

Um we have great water treatment facilities and wastewater treatment facilities.

Um they do a great job of removing all regulated pollutants.

We have great operators, well knowledgeable, they're licensed, they trained, um, they do a great job of doing that to meet those regulatory requirements.

But this concept of discharging wastewater upstream of a water intake is a new concept here in Indiana.

Um we don't see that.

You see it out west, but we haven't seen that in Indiana.

So that water reuse concept is very new to all of Indiana.

We haven't been educated on that, and it's scary.

Um we mentioned the nutrients, so wastewater utilities they do a great job of removing pollutants that they're required to to meet regulatory requirements.

Uh, but the as we mentioned earlier, there's still pollutants that are able to pass through a treatment facility.

Um they don't have to remove everything.

Um Marty did calculations on pounds of phosphorus.

I did I did it per day.

Um I hope my numbers match up with Marty's.

Uh but um, yeah, at the one milligram per liter of phosphorus at 15 million gallons a day flow.

That's about 125 pounds of phosphorus a day being discharged into the reservoir.

And I work in agriculture.

Um, to put that in perspective, I worked at the farmer this spring.

He put 70 pounds of phosphorus per acre on his corn crop, and that corn crop yield over a hundred or over 200 bushels of corn per acre.

So phosphorus, that amount of phosphorus can really uh enhance vegetative growth.

We talked about toxic algae blooms.

Um not only are they the toxins that are released from the algae are harmful to aquatic ecosystems and people, but it also depletes oxygen levels in the in the water column that impacts aquatic species that need oxygen.

Uh we talked on the taste and odor issue with algae blooms.

We talked about unregulated unregulated contaminants.

Um our wastewater systems do a great job of removing regulated contaminants, but we have a a lot of new emergent contaminants that EPA is very aware of the adverse effects to the health of humans and aquatic ecosystems.

Uh, EPA just hasn't figured out how to sample, test, and treat for these emergent contaminants.

So uh it's on EPA's radar, and I imagine in the future they will put limits on it.

Uh but currently these kind of emergent contaminants do pass through wastewater treatment facilities.

This causes an equal concern.

Uh, the fluctuation of water, you know, we mentioned that we're uh we're bringing in more or we're discharging more wastewater into our reservoir than we're taking out.

So that caused a question of uh that will level of fluctuation in the reservoir, or is it gonna change the water levels downstream?

How much water can go through that dam?

Is there a limit?

We know that they have to send so much water to the town of Speedway for their drinking water, but is there a limit at how much we can pass over that dam before it starts to flood out speedway?

Um, I mentioned the emergent contaminants, they do disrupt reproduction and development of our aquatic organisms.

Again, the flooding downstream is a concern of ours as well.

You know, recreation concerns, um the people we're seeing more and more visitation, uh, the visitors' numbers increasing at our parks throughout the the state and at Eagle Creek.

Um so with that increase algae blooms, there is that exposure to those toxins can cause some uh health problems.

We haven't seen any deaths in Indiana from these toxic algae blooms.

We have seen livestock and some pets die from consuming algae, taitant water.

We have seen livestock and some pets uh die from consuming algae taint water um and uh these emergent contaminants that I talked about earlier uh they do build up the bioaccumulated in the food web so that is a concern to you know as bigger fish eat smaller fish and humans eat that the bigger fish those pollutants bioaccumulate and build up in those and as it gets into our bigger fish and into our bodies it it affects our human health as well the odor from the the algae blooms that could cause some issues with recreation uh increased recreation we didn't talk about discharge flow um you know you got a 15 mile 48 inch diameter pipe pushing 15 million gallons of water each gallon of water weighs 8.34 pounds that's a lot of weight a lot of loss and you come through that I know they have some um aeration and ways to oxygenate that water before it leaves that pipe but we really didn't talk about the spillways or the gates to slow that water down where those are going to be put at the outfall you know that velocity of water can really move sediment around uh changing the flow in the in the reservoir and building up sediments in different parts of that reservoir and then the you know the increased water you know we're bringing in more water than we're taking out so the integrity and safety of that dam can is a current should be a concern as well yeah and then when we talked about drought situations we need to plan for those extreme conditions um we're seeing you know more and more longer extended periods of dry uh dry time in the summer when we're not getting those rains so we do need to count for those extreme events as well as those extreme rain events when we are getting that big uh those big intense rainfall events how do we plan for that um you know I didn't did conduct the uh study saying that there was going to be no impacts to downstream flows or the river or the reservoir there was no third party review of the of their findings um I think and you know again the concerns of the susceptibility to drought and flooding uh the decline in water quality and quantity in our freshwater ecosystems and we also just mentioned that uh there's some legislation going through the the state house that could greatly um impact the state's discretion to enforce water water policy water quality policies so I went through that career fast because Luann and uh Marty did a great job of of explaining everything I just did so um I'll be happy to take any questions thank you Mr.

Day it's been very informative um questions of the committee I'll throw one out while you're uh finishing your snack there councillor McCormick um to your knowledge Mr.

Days has other been a uh or recently uh bathometric study done of the reservoir do we know how much water is there currently I don't have that answer I mean Senator citizens probably have a better answer for that okay okay what and I see your number one recommend recommendation and I'm not sure they're necessarily in priority but the first one listed um environmental assessment what studies in your opinion need to be done or would you recommend we understand from their prior presentation that because of the path which this project has taken that maybe not all the typical studies would have been done or preliminary environmental impact studies like we saw when they wanted to take the water out of the walbash my recollection was there was a lot of study done then they changed their mind overnight and said Eagle Creek you're it you're next correct where were all the studies that's a good question.

Um, but uh, you know, the the bio uh just the uh the value of the lake, how much sediment has filled in, um, what is in that sediment, the core samples of that, see how much has bioaccumulated over time.

Um, are there concerns with with that uh the overall ecosystem health, the impacts that this kind of flow can have on that?

Um that's the best I got for you.

Yes, Councilman Corney.

Thank you, Chairman.

Um I know you I have mentioned to you that I have lots of things, but for this, sort of to address a couple things.

Thank you for your presentation.

Um and for those that don't know me, my background um is in engineering, and so data numbers is my jam.

Um and it's been a long time since I've taken taken a fluid mechanics class.

But um talking about the flooding, there is a large portion south of the reservoir, south of this over spill of the dam spill, um, that is in 500-year plain flood area, and that is only 500 year because of the dam.

So, like that is a concern, I think, for residents in my district.

Um, again, where I live, um, the reason that we have the reservoir, uh, my neighborhood was flooded when that flood happened 50 years ago.

So um, so again, this hits close to home to me, but my residents as well.

Um, so that discharge velocity flow at the at the mouth um where the water wants to go out.

I get that is not something that I think we've discussed a lot of.

But if you think about right, like if you have a bunch of water coming through a little hole, what does it do to move everything around?

Because if you've seen, we'll just go with like a boat propeller, right?

Like if your boat goes in the water and that sediment kicks up, it moves all that dirt around.

So we're not talking about what's already there, staying where it is, it's gonna move around as well.

So, like we are introducing a potential contaminants or it things that are already there in the sediment that will be brought up.

Um, I think those are items that I don't necessarily think have been brought up in the conversations that I've had, but those are um some that we need to continue to consider in these conversations.

Thank you.

Any other questions?

One final one.

I don't know if you uh if you would have this answer, Mr.

Dades, but initially, or I should say recently, it's been announced that there were three tenants in leak, the third one being the chip manufacturer.

To your knowledge, is that tenant dropped out of the picture, leaving only Meta and Lilly?

I don't have that answer.

So any other questions or comments?

Hearing none, thank you, Mr.

Day.

Yes.

Pardon you missed your pizza.

Next, we are going to hear from Citizens Energy Group, and we appreciate them coming this evening.

And I'll let them introduce themselves and proceed.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, members of the committee.

My name is Bridget O'Connor, Director of Government Affairs and Regulatory Policy for Citizens Energy Group.

We appreciate the time to talk to you today about our Lebanon water supply program.

Um I have here with me Steve Barraby, he's the director of water production for Citizens, so he will walk through a presentation that'll show you a bunch of data about um what we know about our program and and the facts around that.

Um happy to take questions while we walk through it or at the end um as as the committee desires.

Thank you, Bridget.

Thank you, counselors.

Um as a bridge said, I'm the director of water production for citizens.

Uh myself and my team operate our and maintain our treatment facilities as well as uh the reservoirs and citizens owns, uh as well as the water supply planning and um uh uh sort of forward-looking uh approaches to our water supply in here in central Indiana.

Um citizens is a public charitable trust, as was mentioned earlier.

Uh we operate under a municipal utility model that have been here in central Indiana since the 1800s.

Um what makes this a little bit unique is that we don't have any shareholders.

Uh we operate for the benefit of the community.

And uh we we are charged with you know protecting our existing customers, making sure growth pays for growth, but also serving um uh you know non-discriminatorily.

Um we currently serve about 355,000 customers on a retail basis, shown in the blue area there on the map, as well as eight uh adjacent communities where we sell sell water to them for them to resell to their customers.

Um these customers uh it's done in a variety of ways, including communities where we serve and provide 100% of their water, such as the case of Liszton and Whitestown.

Some communities where we just have emergency interconnections or uh provide water to some customers that make more sense to have connected to our system.

But the majority of those are uh communities that utilize locally available groundwater to serve uh many of their customers, but uh utilize our regional water supplies to make up the difference and to make sure that they can continue to serve uh new customers and economic growth in their area.

We do that through our divide diverse water resources uh across 10 different treatment facilities.

The capacity, combined capacity of those treatment facilities, is 256 million gallons per day with an average day demand of about 127 million gallons per day.

Uh the difference between those two numbers comes down to prudent utility planning.

Uh customer demands are not flat, they vary on a day-to-day basis.

If you think about your own water usage, um, you know, you're not water using water consistently throughout the day.

Um then on top of sort of that normal uh you know day to day use we need to ensure that we have appropriate redundancy in our system and in our treatment facilities, as well as to be prepared for emergencies like fires and main breaks.

So of those 10 treatment plants, uh four surface water treatment plants make up 75% of our supply.

Uh you can see on the diagram for the left, uh they range from the for the south treatment plant is White River at 16th Street and the White River.

Um it's our largest treatment plant with a capacity of 120 million gallons per day and has been in place since the early 1900s.

Uh Fall Creek is our second largest near the state fairgrounds with a capacity of 40 million gallons per day.

White River North uh has a capacity of about 34 million gallons per day, and then TW Moses off of Eagle Creek currently has a capacity of 24 million gallons per day.

So those are the workhorses of our system.

Uh we also have six smaller groundwater treatment plants that you can see in the red areas that uh have 10 different well fields and 80 different wells uh that supply those facilities.

And we use this regional system uh to serve our customers to provide redundancy and flexibility in how we use our resources.

Uh Indiana's blessed with uh tremendous natural rainfall normally, but we do experience periods of uh you know temporary drought, and that's why we have the reservoirs uh to provide a buffer for those time periods uh between the four reservoirs in central central Indiana amounts to about 25 billion gallons of water to supplement uh the natural streams during times of uh of a lack of rain.

And it's those very conditions that we conduct our planning around.

Um moderate droughts with approximately uh one in 20 year reoccurrence.

Uh we utilize our uh drought management plans uh to handle uh droughts that are more severe than that.

But ultimately we project our demand, uh project the water supply uh availability under these conditions, and then assess to make sure that we have sufficient supply to meet those demands.

And so you'll see on the graph on the left our projected you know, worst case peak day demands in the black with the safety factor uh shown with the red line, and then each of those stair steps corresponds to a different project that we've identified uh to increase the water supply of our system.

So those first two stair steps are the projects that have been uh mentioned already today, and we'll talk about more the expansion of the White River North uh facility by 25 million gallons per day, and the TW Moses facility by six MGD.

And then beyond that, we've identified other uh expansion projects such as uh uh constructing a new treatment plant for the downstream, as well as uh creating more storage in our system uh similar to what we did with Citizens Reservoir shown there on the upper right, where we took an old limestone quarry and converted it into water storage.

So we fill that with excess storm flows and then pump out of it uh during drought periods, and we anticipate uh replicating that with the many other limestone quarries that are in our region.

Uh similarly, we've uh invested in tremendous uh other water supply projects over the past 10 to 15 years, such as the White River to Canal and Fall Creek to Canal intakes, um, which provide the opportunity for additional yield as well as additional flexibility in how we utilize uh all of our raw water resources in the reservoirs.

Um those past projects have resulted in much improved uh drought performance in our system.

You can see in uh you know years past during moderate drought conditions, uh Morse Geist reservoirs were gone down significantly, six, seven, eight, nine, ten feet.

Uh and in recent drought years, the past few and including 2025 and the drought that we're still in, the reservoirs are virtually full.

Beyond the 50 years that we uh look at and update that plan on a regular and annual basis, uh we use utilize the modeling software that was developed for us by a third party consultant uh to look not just for the next 50 years but into the future.

And we've identified that through prudent uh use of you know available water downstream, uh prudent uh return flows of water, and then the additional reservoir storage that there's uh more than sufficient water within central Indiana, both uh you know, in the immediate next five years as well as the next 50 years and the 50 and 100 and you know, decades and centuries beyond that.

So diving into the Citizens Lebanon Water Supply Program in more detail.

Um the state came to us in 2024 with a request for 25 million gallons per day.

Um we assessed our integrated water resource plan and said, well, you know, we need to protect our customers so we can't take on any risk in terms of this project.

Um so if you're willing to finance the entire program, you know, we think we can accelerate the water supply projects that we already had identified in our pipeline, moved them up a few years and uh implemented them.

Um ultimately that uh uh you know turns into this financial agreement that makes it very clear that the uh end users of the water will pay for the the repay repayment of these loans, and we then have a wholesale contract with Lebanon utilities uh laying out the terms of that agreement saying uh you know no more than 25 million gallons per day uh will be sent from citizens.

So back you know, in 24 and to 25, uh we conducted significant um conversations and outreach.

Uh we recognize that we could have done more, and um that's why we're here today to continue to inform the public on this uh program.

Um we stood up a website as was mentioned previously uh in early 2025 with information as well as a website for people to ask questions and get answers to.

So the the plan itself to dive into some of the details, you know, we have this request for up to 25 million gallons per day.

There's a phase delivery model because of the timing of the projects that need to be completed.

Um we intend to provide up to two million gallons per day by 2027, up to 10 million gallons per day in 2028, and up to 25 million gallons per day by 2031.

Um we're gonna use our you know, 10 treatment plants to do so to ensure that we don't put our overall system at risk.

Uh we are expanding the two treatment treatment plants as previously mentioned, uh, as well as uh creating the ability to bring water from a third treatment plant, the White River treatment plant, uh, into this northwest portion of our system through a new pump station.

The pink lines represent 53 miles of main that needs to be installed for this, uh, some of which runs from the edge of the citizen system to the edge of the Lebanon system, but much of which is within our existing service territory and will uh improve the level of service to our existing customers by providing you know more ideal, more consistent uh pressures as well as more resiliency and redundancy.

Um for context, our system grows by about 30 miles of main naturally in a given year, independent of larger projects like this.

Uh in addition to those uh miles of main, there'll be four new booster stations to pump that water along, as well as upgrading uh booster station, the blue dot there in the middle.

And then seven uh finished water storage tanks associated with those uh pump stations.

As I mentioned previously, uh this financing is through the Indiana Finance Authority.

Uh there's no recourse to citizens or citizens' customers, and will ultimately be paid uh for by the businesses in the lead district and Lebanon's end customers.

Uh the structure of this financing is not to exceed 700 million dollars.

Our program estimates right now are about 550 million dollars.

So regarding Ew Creek reservoir and TW Moses treatment plant, uh as was mentioned previously, the reservoir was constructed in 1969.

Prior to that, the city leaders and the water company and the community identified a plan by which this reservoir would be built for flood control, drinking water supply, and recreation.

So while owned by the city of Indianapolis, part of the water supply deal was that the utility would pay for uh significant portion of the construction costs of the reservoir.

Um our modeling consultant, so in lieu of the bathroometric information that is somewhat outdated, um we did have our third party consultant from Hazard and Sawyer uh assess what volume uh is believed to be in the reservoir, and we provided about four or five different uh storage elevation curves that different studies had a hypothesis hypothesized as being you know accurate uh over the past decades.

Um they looked at the available data uh between those different curves as well as the inflows, outflows, and changes in elevation and determined that the the reservoir uh still has about eight million gallons, eight billion gallons of water in it, um fairly similar to the original estimates when constructed.

Umarty and uh Luann talked a little bit about this, but the uh elevations of the reservoir dictated by the dam operations at the southern end.

Um those are operated by citizens, but it's through a contract with the city of Indianapolis, and it's actually uh through our wastewater uh uh operating team, not mine that does that.

But the parameters and targets given from the city to uh the operator is to maintain 791 feet in the summertime and then 788.5 feet of elevation in the winter time, and as was stated, that's for the migratory birds and explosive exposing those mud flats.

Um the key is that even with increased inflows, the the reservoir levels aren't going to change.

That excess flow will just be released downstream from the dam, and the the pool level would be maintained at those targets.

Um the minimum releases uh at all times throughout the year is 5.6 million gallons per day.

Um that's a combination of three million gallons per day for speedways use uh at their drinking water facility, and then 2.6 million gallons per day to make make sure that there's a minimum flow in that stream downstream of the dam.

Um we've been monitoring and modeling this over the years uh you know since the reservoir was first constructed, and reservoir inflows have already increased tremendously, uh particularly over the last 25 years.

So prior to 2000, average inflows have been 63 million gallons per day, and in the last 25 years, they've increased by about 50 percent to 92 million gallons per day.

And ultimately that increase is what uh results in the increased yield available at the TW Moses treatment plant.

Um we've made plans to or in the process of designing that expansion from 24 million gallons per day to 30 million gallons per day.

We expect the average production to increase from about 10 million gallons per day to 12 million gallons per day.

Um again, with the large influx of inflows, um, you know, reservoir levels will not change from the past history will be maintained at those targets, and um you know, ultimately sustainability of this uh park and reservoir is in our best interest as well as the community's best interest.

Uh we strive to keep all of our reservoirs topped off as full as possible because that's our our lifeblood as a community.

You know, heaven forbid that we experience some ultra-severe drought, but we need to have that water available in the event that something were to happen.

Um you can see in the the graph to the bottom, these are the annual draw drawdowns, minimum drawdowns experienced in the reservoir over the period of its life, and you can see that uh you know the reservoir has stayed remarkably uh consistent in recent years, and that's primarily due to that increase in yield and uh uh inflow relative to when it was first modeled and constructed.

Um there's already significant NPDS discharges coming in upstream of Eagle Creek Reservoir.

You can see the graph to the upper right, that those have increased from about four million gallons per day to over eight million gallons per day over the past 15 years.

And so it's uh this excess water that ultimately uh citizens would like to use and its treatment facility to serve our our community.

Uh and ultimately that water is just released downstream, uh unused otherwise.

And so in addition to that, um the way customers are served uh is different now than it was in the past in the you know pre-2000s, uh Eagle Creek really or TW Moses really stood on its own.

The customers served by TW Moses were only served by TW Moses, and there was really no flexibility within the operating system of the water utility to be flexible in that.

We have since invested tremendous infrastructure to allow customers to be served by multiple different sources, uh, and this program will continue that, as I said before, to you know, bring in water from the White River treatment plant into this area as well.

That provides flexibility both uh to manage our raw water resources to make sure no uh particular areas uh or reservoir natural system is overly stressed, uh, as well as providing capital uh flexibility for taking a plant out of service to do repairs and make sure that it's uh uh you know in good standing for the foreseeable future.

Um so once you know we take the water in this uh graphic sort of demonstrates the utility water cycle that's uh occurring both within this program and throughout our communities, uh both upstream and downstream.

You know, drinking water utility like citizens uh takes water out of a natural stream or uh aquifer, sends it to customers, they then send it to a wastewater treatment plant who then cleans that water back up and discharges it back to the environment.

Um this is occurring upstream of us, downstream of us, and we are a part of this cycle as well.

Uh and ultimately the stringent monitoring requirements and compliance um requirements both on the drinking water treatment side as well as the wastewater treatment side or or what make the system work for us.

So as we look at the past, and you know, Marty was talking about a water budget uh and this is simplified, but um this is what we've seen in the past or seeing currently and expect to see in the future, in that you know the bulk of the flows that come into the reservoir flow out of it.

Um while the the reservoir is uh slow moving, it still moves.

Uh this isn't just a bathtub that only evaporates.

Uh much of this water is uh sent downstream through the dam structure.

Um, and then citizens uses a portion of that for drinking water supplies.

And so even with the increased uh inflows over the past 25 years, we haven't changed our operating parameters at all at the treatment facility and are proposing a very modest uh increase relative to the the trends that are happening.

Lastly, um, you know, citizens' intent with this program is to enhance the well-being of our customers and communities uh both now and in the future.

And you know, this infrastructure aligns with that vision by enhancing the level of service to our customers, uh, to our existing customers at no cost to those customers.

Um plans prior to the state coming to us regarding this program.

We found an opportunity to uh both meet their needs while also providing for our existing customers.

Um so we expect customers to see you know better pressures, better redundancy and resiliency, and ultimately a stronger infrastructure system for Central Indiana and its future.

Um the flexibility and the resource management side by bringing water from additional treatment facilities into this area of the system uh is invaluable uh as well as ensuring the water balance by returning the treated water back to the watershed of origin.

Um ultimately by bringing that into the subwatershed of Eagle Creek, uh, that increases the drought resiliency of Eagle Creek Reservoir and further bolsters uh the ability to maintain those uh reservoir levels at a consistent basis and at those targets.

That I thank you for your time.

Any questions?

All right, thank you for the presentation.

Any questions from anybody in the committee?

Councillor Muscari.

Thank you, Chairman.

Um what percentages of uh meta and lilies are of water they're going to use?

Like lilies are they using a big chunk, or is it a meta, or do you have any clue?

Uh I uh that would be a better question for Lebanon Utilities who's going after us.

We're providing wholesale water service to lebit in, and then they are distributing it to both their customers, uh, their existing customers, but then also um uh the members of the leak district.

So I think they would have a better idea of the distribution of the water.

You know, I don't know if everybody realizes it, but last year um the state house, they wanted to pull the water from the Walbers River, and that was squashed.

I think it would be a better choice to bring it from the Wall Bash.

And that way you're not being involved at all.

I may have other questions.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yes.

Uh Counselor Evans.

Thank you, Chairman.

You've spoken a little bit about how this project is covering investments that you would have had to have taken on at some point.

What is your total investment for this project?

The estimate for our portion of the program right now is 550 million dollars.

Of that 550 million, how much of that is covering projects that were in your capital plan for your current customers?

I don't have that estimate right now, but we can get that.

Okay.

Talking about uh meta, it was reported, I think, in the IBJ article that they were going to use three million gallons uh per day.

That was an article from I think about a year or two ago.

Um I think it's reported more recently that that increase is up to eight million gallons per day.

Um so I'm curious w why are they not being required to use a water loop system to help reduce the water consumption?

It again, I I don't have an answer to that question.

It's a it's a good question, and I think that could be something uh maybe Lebanon can answer, but probably um the state as well, if if those are those questions, but um we we cannot again we're providing the 25 million gallons a day um at max to the the city of Lebanon.

Um we anticipate it it will probably be less than that, and that is the commitment for the next um 20 plus years, and that it has been uh told to us that that is all they will need, and so that is the extent of our commitment, and we will be providing just that 25 MGD.

I understood.

So are you guys gonna enter into a binding contract with regards to the amount of water that you're going to be taking out of the reservoir?

So you're saying, right, max would be I think three million gallons coming per day out of the Eagle Creek Reservoir.

Is that gonna be binding on you all, or is that just what you're telling us?

And then one day that could increase to five or six or great question.

Um there is a contract with the the city of Indianapolis, and we will abide by that contract.

Um, it's like 50 years old, right?

Correct, but we've been operating under that and we'll continue to operate under that, and and nothing that we are planning is will compromise the water level, the historic water levels of the reservoir.

Um there's a I know Steve went through a lot of the data and and there's a lot of data to back that up that you know we we are talking with the city about that.

Um, but you know, um we we will continue to honor that contract because that is dictated to us, those terms of that contract are dictated to us.

Correct, but we know here in a few months there's gonna be a new contract.

So you've just said I think that you you would basically honor all of this.

So would you make will CEG make the commitment that in the new contract they would include such a binding clause that they would not take more than three million gallons?

I I mean I think we're we're continuing to have conversations about that that's you could see where one might question this, right?

Like we're being told this in the public, and I'm asking you, which you may not be the decision maker, but it would seem that it would be a pretty easy commitment that CEG could make on behalf of the citizens that they would enter into a binding contract not to take out more than three million gallons per day.

Absolutely, and that's something that we would talk to to the city about.

Okay.

I have more questions, but I'll yield for my colleagues.

Sure.

Councillor McCormick.

Thank you, Chairman.

Um, so I'm gonna talk a little so with the the levies that are downstream from the reservoir, uh, do you know who is responsible for maintaining those?

No, I don't.

Okay.

Um and so that so that's a question, and I believe it's like DPW and um I think there might be some state um groups there.

The the reason I'm going with that is so one of the things with this increase, and again, I I'm not speaking for anybody else, but it sounds like the taking of the water is within limits, and we've had an increase over the years, right?

So that maybe isn't as the biggest concern is what's coming back in, at least in my like for me, that's the biggest concern.

Um not that taking water is not a concern, but so if if we're putting in a lot more water and we're having more spillage out, right?

Like we have to release more.

Um, is there gonna for anybody who has flood insurance with that is that something that was potentially gonna go up?

I know Speedway covers as the town of Speedway covers flood insurance for its residents that it live within those 500 and 200 year flood ranges.

Um but for others that live along um Eagle Creek, is that something that would go up because of this change in what you're doing?

I can't speak to the flood insurance part, but to give you a scale of how the dam operates and flood flows.

Um the dam gate structure can release over 6,000 million gallons per day of water during flooding conditions.

So this 15 MGD that we're talking about is about 0.2% of that.

Um so the levees and everything, the dam structure of the levees, everything downstream are all built to handle much, much higher flows than what we're talking about.

Right, but if we're letting a lot more come down, like where like we're gonna have some rise, right?

So if we have a flooding event, we're gonna have to let them a lot more out, and that is gonna for a short period rise, right?

So there are places along where Eagle Creek was, there's no levy, and there used to be homes there 50 years ago, and those homes ended up four miles downstream, right?

So this these are things that I'm can I like I'm concerned about for my residents.

Um and then I will I have more questions, Mr.

Chairman, but I'll yield.

Sure.

Thank you.

Uh Council Brown.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Uh thank you for the presentation.

A couple quick questions.

Um first, you mentioned the like 50% uh increase in inflow over the last 25 years compared to the previous, what like 50?

Uh why why is that?

Predominantly due to upstream growth of the communities of Zionsville, Westfield, and Carmel.

Okay, that's helpful.

Um so help me understand the non-recourse financing you mentioned.

So I understand that CEG and ratepayers are not on the hook for that.

What happens if LEAP is just a total bust?

If only two out of nine slots ever get filled, etc.

Is that just the state is on the hook for that or or how does that work?

Yeah, this the state would be responsible at that point.

Okay.

Um and then finally, I want to ask a question based on a couple of our previous presenters, given that of the presumed um, you know, leap district uh clients would be a lot of pharmaceutical and high-tech industry.

That to me does beg the question of whether there's going to be something in the water that our current treatment plants aren't really well equipped to monitor and take care of.

Um I know that's kind of outside the it's maybe a question for Lebanon, but do you have any um recommendations or requirements for the water quality once it goes back into CEG's catchment area?

Uh like how do you how do you how do we set up contracts that make sure that compounds that don't exist yet aren't in the water, right?

Yeah, we um so Lily's been operating in Indianapolis for 150 years now, um, and we've we operate the wastewater treatment plant um in the in central Indiana.

So we've been processing their um wastewater and returning treated um clean water back to uh the White River, and so we are we have a lot of confidence in a utility's ability to manage that waste stream and um not affect the ecological life downstream.

Um and so that's why we're very confident in the placement of Lily a community partner up in that district because we we've we've done it, we know it, you know, we trust Idem too.

Idem has in in Lebanon, I'm sure we'll touch on this, but they have a very stringent anti-degradation process that has yet to occur, and that includes public input, public um comment.

Um we're just years down the road.

Uh I think the public has caught us at kind of the beginning stages, which is great.

Um I know it it might not feel like that, but um there is still quite a bit of opportunity for public input in into those decisions that the item will make with respect to stream quality and and the type of limitations that they will impose on both the the wastewater utility but the also the upstream users.

And then just one more briefly, Mr.

Chair.

Um I think previous speakers categorize it in this way, and that's certainly been my experience based on family members working for ID IDEM, etc.

Uh, that the stringency, the um strictness of regulations does seem to have declined pretty significantly over the last 25 years.

And so I guess what could you say to people who are concerned that if you know Idem regulations are supposed to be a preventative factor here, and those regulations have been dissolving over time, like what's the backstop for that?

Our our experience is not that um because again we we do operate a white wastewater treatment plant, and we do have to comply with um the the federal and state um environmental protection requirements, and so the the Clean Water Act has been around since 1972, and it pre it's predated by um federal regulations as well.

Um it is a bipartisan supported um thing to protect drinking water.

Um and so we are we are confident in IDEM.

Um we my background is environmental science as well, so I worked as an environmental consultant before coming to citizens and and so I you know we feel very confident with that, and we're on the drinking water side as well, and so we need to make sure that anything that is coming into the the source of water that we're using is protective of our customers, including myself.

I'm a customer of citizens as well.

Um and and nothing about this program is going to compromise that uh councillor Bain Crusade.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

My uh question was answered there at the end regarding like the MCLs and and what goes into the wastewater.

Thank you.

Sure.

Counselor Delaney.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Um I am hearing a lot of numbers in terms of inflow and outflow that's going on, and we've said that there's only two, I'll call them tenants up in the league district, but we're saying the max capacity is 25 million gallons a day.

How do we get that number if we don't know what's gonna be there and what the uses are?

Um and the second part to that question is you s it seems to me you've made it clear that you're able to consistently manage the level um the elevation of the reservoir um despite inflows and outflows and droughts and things like that.

I am piggybacking on counselor McCormick's comment.

To do that, you're gonna have if you have a bunch coming in and only three million going out.

How do we make sure we're not flooding folks downstream of the reservoir?

So I had those two questions.

Thank you.

Yeah, I I view the the 25 million gallons a day as a max promise that we can supply on their peak day.

They might never get to that, and they likely will not get to that 25 million gallons a day.

But the capacity the the the infrastructure will be there to deliver it if they do.

So the state and and the city will know that limitation if future projects want to be cited there.

And so I would I would be confident that you know they will work within the parameters of the limited water use, you know, for us as long as they can.

And um, if there were to be an additional water need, um this body, and I think everyone would be um incorporated into that conversation.

And then the second part to my question was since you can't right now sit here and say I'm gonna you're only making predictions about how much is gonna be uh needed to be taken out.

Um I'm assuming that coming back into the lake, the wastewater discharge at this point you're only making projections about what's coming back as well.

But let's say you again you only have three million going out, but you have 10 million coming back.

How do we make sure that we're not flooding the residents downstream of the reservoir?

Yeah, so let's say it's three being withdrawn and 15 coming back, so a net of 12.

That 12 million gallons per day pales in comparison to the over 6,000 million gallons per day that's released during rain events today.

Uh so that's a very normal stream flow for that stream downstream uh during any rain event.

Thank you.

And I think you know, Steve, if you could go back to the graph of the inflows.

Which one for the and I think Steve's earlier point is that you know we have seen the the water volumes running through that reservoir increase over time, and it has been managed perfectly fine downstream, and so there is plenty of capacity to handle those downstream downstream flows.

And you know just to point out on this graph, you know, what's in dark blue is what's coming into the reservoir every day on average.

What's in light blue is what's going out of the reservoir every day on average, and what's in gold is just what is being used for drinking water purposes.

So it's all a balanced equation, but there's plenty of water coming into and out of that reservoir every day, and we're just taking a tiny um sliver of that.

I have a couple quick questions I'll interject before I pass it along.

Um I understand CEG, you have a informational website that you're chalking full of information as it develops.

Can you give that on the record so people watching and listening will have that?

I don't have it in here.

I think it's in the Lebanon slides.

It'll be on the record in the 11th.

Yeah, we'll get okay.

I don't want to make you know it's a bunch of letters, so I don't want to miss me for the record.

Is it on that one page flyer?

Absolutely, yeah.

Um the CLWSP.

Is that the site?

Yes.

Citizens Lebanon Water Supply Program.

So that's what that that acronym stands for.

Okay.

Yeah, so it's CLWSP at Citizensergy Group.com.

That's the email address.

Oh, sorry.

Uh Citizens Energy Group.com slash C L W S P.

Well, I sure I assume if we went to your website, went to your home page it would jump out at us.

Yes.

And that email address, there is a live person behind that email address answering hundreds of emails every day.

Well, it's less than that now, but um there, you know, they will answer within a you know 24, 48 hour at least one week time period.

So feel free to reach out to us.

Um we also are hosting office hours at the Pike Township public library that's on that website as well.

Um if people are not as comfortable coming to a big public meeting and speaking at the microphone, we have one-on-one individuals at that library that can answer all your questions.

So we encourage you know, members of the public to come to those.

Um and we're hosting those, I think, I believe through March, um, and we'll continue if there's an interest.

Okay.

Same question I asked uh Mr.

Days.

Do you know if there's been a bathometric study done recently of the reservoir?

I know your PowerPoint said eight million, but uh my understanding is that's somewhat dated data.

There's some evidence in the literature that uh there was a DNR bathrometric survey done in the 90s, but we have not been able to find that data.

So it's not clear if it was or wasn't done.

Then where does the eight billion gallons come from?

It comes from the original estimates when the reservoir was constructed.

When it was built 50 years ago, and multiple estimates have been done on that uh over the years, and that's what we provided to our third party consultant, and they were able to take the inflows and outflows and look at the change in elevation to to determine that the that original curve still represented the behavior of the reservoir.

And is there a maximum uh timeline when you anticipate everything that CEG is obligated to do or plans to do will be done?

Regarding this program you mean yes, 2031.

2031.

Okay.

And then one thing I know several of us have been hearing from are particularly the residents along Moore Road.

Um the literature and research I've done suggests it'll be up to 10 acres of forest.

Clear cut or cut down for purposes of easements.

And there people say there's just pink ribbons everywhere up and down Moore Road.

Citizens Energy, are they inclined to do any forest mitigation in the way of paying for planting of new trees or uh donating to uh KIB for uh new plants or even maybe looking at preserving maybe some legit legacy trees that might be currently marked for destruction, but instead preserve them?

Yeah, that's a that's a great question.

We'll we'll of course take that into consideration.

I know from the easement process, um, I don't I don't know if that number is accurate, but we do work with those individual property owners to avoid you know as much as that um the that trees or whatever they're interested in protecting on their property as as possible.

Um the easements um it's not a full taking of a property, it is a small utility easement that typically abuts the roadway.

Um we will be horizontally boring as much as possible so that there's not a big construction crew out there.

Um you know, once we're gone, we will restore that area you know uh uh to what it was before, if not better.

Um and then that property will still be the the ownership of those those individuals.

They will just be paid for our infrastructure that sits under that uh that easement.

And so I it's not I know it's not a um welcome process everywhere, but it it you know we are you know doing our best to make sure that we're compensating the need compensating the homeowners, but on based on third party um uh valuation.

And so I it's not, I know it's not a um welcome process everywhere, but it it you know, we are you know doing our best to make sure that we're compensating the need compensating the homeowners, but on based on third party um uh valuation, um, but then also considering what their concerns are and and avoiding those those concerns with with respect to our final design.

But um that's a great point about the trees.

You know, we will we will definitely look into it.

Um and we have a long-standing history of our commitment to planting trees in the the neighborhood.

I know we many of you might know that we did commit to planting 10,000 trees within the Indianapolis area as part of our um combined sewer overflow uh mitigation system.

So we have completed that 10,000 tree, I think, last year.

Um, and so we we we do have a history of that, and we will consider that.

Great, thank you.

Um another question on the expansion of the MOSIS plant.

Will there be any additional or modifications to what will be can be detected there?

Or was it just gonna be its capacity increased?

Will it be able to detect new chemicals because we're dealing with stuff coming from so-called new innovation?

There may be chemicals that we've never seen before coming out of that those factories.

Uh is Moses gonna have the capacity to be on the cutting edge of the contaminant detection.

Yeah, citizens already has a state of the art uh laboratory certified by the state.

Uh I would put it up against any state laboratory out there with uh high end uh detection equipment and so on and so forth.

Um so we already have that capability today and do a lot of emergent contaminant monitoring.

Okay.

And then did I hear it in answer to the earlier question about your current contract with the city expires this summer?

Yes, it does, yeah.

July 1st is it was that a date.

I'm not sure the exact date, but this year.

Okay, and I think just hearkening back to the presentation by um the advisory committee.

Distilling down their main concerns.

One was, and I know this is not your province, but moving the outfall.

We'll talk to Lebanon about that.

Um innovation water usage at LEAP.

I think Ms.

O'Connor mentioned uh that's more of a state question, so we'll be sure to talk to our state friends about that.

Um but the other issue would be or the final issue about limiting uh the withdrawal of the water or putting some guardrails in.

Um and I think you had mentioned you would CEG would be willing to consider maybe putting some maximum limits because what concerns people is this is a contract that might be 25, 50 years.

We've got 11,000 acres of land in LEAP with only two tenants, the whole intent there and the billion dollars spent developing it, whether that money was fraudulently spent or what, that's a different issue.

But it scares me that we don't even know what it is.

There's nine tenants, there could be 20 more that are a lot worse than the two that we know of.

And we're just not sure that how can CEG be so certain on what it can be willing to do now when it has no idea what's going to be at leap in 10 years.

Yeah, I think those are all great questions, and I know some of those are directed not necessarily towards us.

Um I'll go back to that 25 million gallons a day is is our max number that we will be providing.

And the planning that Steve went over, that long-term 50-year plan, you know, those are individual projects that we have projected, the real projects that we have projected projected for 50 years to meet the water needs of central Indiana, which includes the district as well.

That 25 MGD, not anymore.

Um, you know the reason we presented the information on how our system works at the beginning before getting into Lebanon is because it's really important to understand how we are the region a regional system that utilizes resources to balance each other.

And so, you know, the the all the supply is not coming from Eagle Creek.

It is coming from our holistic system that includes four separate surface water drinking plant or surface water treatment plants and ten different groundwater treatment plants.

We have made significant investment in our system to ensure that we prioritize keeping those reservoirs as full as possible for as long as possible, and we'll have a contract in place to make sure that we will continue to keep Eagle Creek specifically as full as possible as long as possible, unless we're lowering the elevations for the migratory birds, of course.

Unless we're lowering the elevations for the migratory birds, of course.

But it's a it's a balanced system, and so understand your concerns, but that's why we presented that that overarching picture, because it we're not just dependent on Eagle Creek to serve any one customer.

We are we are you utilizing the flexibility of the system and the resiliency and the redundancy of the entire system to support Indianapolis first and those those communities that need additional water?

This may be an oversimplification, but let me rephrase how I've understand what you just said.

Okay and see if I'm accurate.

You've agreed to 25 million gallons a day max.

You don't care if there are 200 tenants or two tenants in LEAP, your maximum commitment for 50 years is going to be 25 million gallons a day per that contract with Lebanon.

Correct.

So if there are 200 tenants there, the 98 other tenant or 198, that's their problem to go out and find the water, but it's not coming from Eagle Creek through this contract.

That is correct.

Okay.

Any other questions or comments?

Yes.

Council Brown.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Um just one quick question, I guess two parts to it.

Number one, what would be the level of water use from you know I get 25 is the max for LEAP, but for data centers slash new high-tech, high water usage um industry in in the CEG area.

So, like what would be a worrying level and how what percentage of that level would we be at if every uh mentioned data center project moved forward.

If you're talking about data centers specifically, um I think the industry is getting smarter about their water usage, right?

And and there's there are different types of technologies that can be used to cool their systems, and a lot of them can be closed loop systems that take once they're filled, they are a typical commercial office building.

And so I I think that there's I know that there's um consideration among the council of you know how do you plan for water resources?

Um and I think that that's a smart consideration of of you know ensuring there's there's appropriate water use.

We know if we go back to that slide that shows the water consumption, there's plenty of water in central Indiana for us to utilize for industry, community, you know, in growth.

Um it's about putting the infrastructure in place to make that water available.

Um so uh we would just suggest, you know, if there is any high usage water user, come to the utility first and we will talk with the the council when when they're making a decision on where to site that, and we can we can talk through what that infrastructure investment would look like.

And we are just like Lebanon, we are a hundred percent committed to making sure our customers pay zero dollars towards develop to towards growth like that.

And so, you know, if there is a high user, you know, we would want to make sure that the protection of our customers is the is our first and foremost priority.

So that is all helpful, but does that mean that there is no number that would be concerning?

Because that was my question.

Uh I mean I think uh I think that there's you know, there's your typical water use, right?

That we can we can accommodate in in everyday planning, but you know, I don't know if concerning is the right word.

It's just there would be a lot more effort if there would be a high water user.

And so I don't have a number for you, but um, but yes, it would just take more effort and planning up front by a utility in coordination with the council and and you know the local officials to to ensure that we can we can structure a deal to to serve that water.

Okay, I do appreciate that.

Thank you.

Counselor Evans.

Thank you, Chairman.

I think what you've presented and showed has made things calm in the sense that you can get water there and not disrupt us as we are today.

However, what I what I think about is that we're we're now feeding this place which is far away from Indianapolis to help them and their economic and their community development and all those things.

And I wonder about those same types of projects that could be built potentially in central Indiana, not just Indianapolis, because you're the water source for most places in central Indiana.

And Central Indiana's population has grown by I think like 250,000 people alone in the last decade.

So when I think about you tell us that we're we're good for 100 years, are you accounting for what could be the potential growth in millions of people in that 100 year span?

And also, does this limit us from having future economic development projects that may be water consumption?

And oh, by the way, I would think that if I were Lebanon's elected officials, I would be pressuring Meta to do something about their water consumption and reduce it and put a water loop system in to allow additional growth in this project that the state has been so kind to pay for them.

But I'm not their elected official.

So that's just a concern.

I don't know if you can comment because I I see what you've put up there.

I've looked at it, it all looks understandable.

But I'm not sure that it's it's actually incorporating all of the potential growth, and it worries me that we may soon, I probably won't be alive, but the people 80, 70 years from now could be finding themselves in a situation of water consumption.

What I the I think what most of us are going to be concerned about is the outflow back in.

And what I'm trying to understand, if you could help me is who negotiated that?

How did that come about and what was Citizens Energy's part in bringing it back to Eagle Creek?

Yeah, I think on the first part, we do consider the growth of our communities in that long-term planning.

And you know, we that is that is a 50-year rolling plan.

So we will continuously project the needs for the 50 years.

And so if there is you know a sudden peak of growth for Indianapolis, we can accommodate that by shifting projects back backwards and forwards.

And so we're very confident in the water supply that we have.

And to your point of water reuse, you know, take this industry aside.

You know, we are actually seeing on a daily demand our customers using less water, and that's because we're replacing toilets, we're watering, we're becoming smarter about irrigation, and that's all a good thing.

And so, you know, consumption overall is going down.

Um and I think we will just get smarter as a society moving forward with respect to how how water is used and recycled in the in the community, and that's the key part is recycled, right?

It's it it comes back, it already is coming back into Eagle Creek Reservoir.

As discussed earlier, there are currently three upstream communities that that discharge treated water into tributaries of Eagle Creek.

And so you know, Lebanon's would be the fourth upstream uh wastewater treatment plant that discharges clean treating water, treated water.

Um so I think I think we're we're confident in that.

And then with with respect to the return water, um, if you look at a watershed map, Lebanon is just on the other side of a of a watershed, and they they currently discharge to Prairie Creek.

That's a very small stream up there that could not handle the additional water flows that would be um produced from the additional water being supplied to Lebanon.

And and they they they'll probably have better information on the specifics of that.

Um this is just very high level.

Um, and so we and we always maintain it's a it's a good thing to bring water back to the source of origin, and so um it creates that water balance.

So we you know we are very supportive of bringing the water back, understanding there are still conversations to be had.

I know that that is we are at the beginning stage of that item process, so the specific outlet fall location and you know MPDS permit limitations are are still yet to be considered and designed and will continue to have public input in that process.

But but we are we are supportive of that.

But going back to the question, how how did the did Eagle Creek become a part of this with Lebanon treating it and sending it to Eagle Creek?

Was that done?

Is that was that a part of a state study?

Was that something CEGs said, well, we don't mean why would you guys just not treat it?

Why treat it there and then bring it here?

Not that I want that either.

But I'm just trying to understand how did Lebanon become a part of this in the discharge of being at Eagle Creek.

I I I don't know if I have that answer, so maybe that's a best directed to Lebanon.

And if I know from the water supply side, um Lebanon is a community that's needed water for um well before the leap district was an idea.

And so we had been talking about supplying water to them on a wholesale basis for a while now.

Um and then the leak district came along and was a catalyst to to get that infrastructure funded without burdening our ratepayers or their ratepayers, and so um that's how the water supply is there, and then I would I would defer to them on on questions on on the specific negotiations of that because that I'm not sure.

Okay, last question, Mr.

Chairman.

Did you guys I would assume you've done some sort of ecological and hydrology studies and were they done independently?

Chairman did you guys I would assume you've done some sort of ecological and hydrology studies and were they done independently and can you speak to that like your the on the water supply on the water supply standpoint.

Yeah so we utilized a model called OASIS that was developed by Hazen and Sawyer.

They pulled in almost a hundred years of uh stream flow data weather data and so on and so forth uh and then we use that model to run scenarios for different demands different weather conditions etc uh to ensure that the sustainable supply is available okay thank you yes counselor bade thank you mr chairman um you know we've heard the term ratepayer thrown around a lot tonight when was the last time CEG had a rate case in front of the commission for our water utility we have not went in for a race rate case in nine years and do you I know you have a 50 year projection do you have a projection on when you would go before the commission for your next rate case we do not currently have a plan to come before the commission for a rate case are you confident the I know you you say that all this is being paid for through private dollars through the agreement with the state you're very confident that this project will not result in a rate increase for your customers.

Absolutely thank you absolutely Council McComing thank you Mr Chairman um I didn't mention this before but I do appreciate the long-term planning that you do being like think that thinking about being proactive and I know engineering design process and other things it's reiterative right like we're always looking the way to improve our plans so I understand that like with the changes in our communities and things like that that I assume at least that you would look at that and make adjustments.

Going to the if the leak project does not get all the businesses and use of the state would be responsible for that funding right where does that money come from is that taxpayer dollars I I cannot speak to that.

So even though the state is responsible it could still be out of citizens' pockets because it's the tax dollars that would cover that I I can't I can't speak to that to that question.

So I guess that's an outlying question that we maybe want to try to get answered.

And then we talked about IDEM maybe removing regulations you mentioned that you haven't heard that but there was maybe an article that had mentioned it.

And then on slide 12 step number five says that the industrial wastewater that might need to be uh processed prior to going to the Lebanon wastewater um is dictated by Lebanon's sewer use ordinance so water coming into Indianapolis is going to be dictated by another municipalities ordinance that we as counselors that are elected for these folks here will not have any say over is that correct Lebanon utilities can speak to their program but India the Indiana Department of Environmental Management is the regulatory body and it is state agency and so they will be the ones that will be controlling again those the NPDS permit limitations and I believe they will be talking about the the industrial pre-treatment so you know the mini treatment plant that happens at the industrial site before it even goes to the wastewater treatment plant where it's treated again before it goes to any surface body water.

So there's a there's a state regulatory body that would be in charge of that it it wouldn't just be on the city to determine right so that's the minimum standard that we're talking about right as Indianapolis if we decide that with compounds that we don't know industries that we have any but we can't even envision yet come in and we decide as a municipality as a council body to change the ordinance to have stricter regulations we would not be able to implement that into that water that would not be able to take effect.

So if we find so for example and I have to find the link south of Carmel after the wastewater treatment plant has the highest concentration of Prozac or its generic in the country so not saying specifically anything about that pharmaceutical itself and what it does but having a pharmaceutical having a high concentration in a water after it's treated is a concern.

So like if we as counselors would decide that we wanted to change that ordinance the water that's coming into Eagle Creek would not fall under could not fall under that because Lebanon ordinance would oversee that correct um yeah I I I guess I I'm not quite understanding the question just we set rules at this level right like as Indianapolis we want the result this level minimum guidelines by state by federal is here and that's where Lebanon's at the water coming from Lebanon is going to be made this standard but we want our water at this standard and we set ordinance for that there's no way there was no way to protect the water coming into Eagle Creek to match what we said as ordinance.

Minimum guidelines by state, by federal, is here, and that's where Lebanon's at.

The water coming from Lebanon is gonna be make this standard, but we want our water at this standard.

And we set ordinance for that.

There's no way there was no way to protect the water coming into Eagle Creek to match what we set as ordinance.

Yeah.

I guess I would I guess I would continue to to note that you know IDEM is the ultimate regulator of that water, and uh, you know, under understand your point, but um, you know, water is is cyclical, like we talked about it.

It goes out, it comes back in, water we receive water upstream of us, and the downstream communities receive downstream water and but we're not talking about stream water, we're talking about sitting water too.

So like there's that goes into that concern, right?

We're talking about water that's not moving, it's going into a sitting body.

And I think that's another maybe misconception, right?

Because there is this is a a reservoir, and a lot of people are thinking of this as a bucket, right?

That's just you know, a sitting body of water.

But you know, 93 million gallons a day are moving into the reservoir every day and out of the reservoir.

Um, and and that is uh like a a moving body of water, and and so it isn't a bucket, it isn't a traditional lake, it is a reservoir that sits on a stream system that that we are using.

And so your point well taken, but uh you know, I I do think the reservoir it definitely uh works a little bit.

It is not that a current flow consistent with whether river is so like if you have from this table, right?

Water coming in here and going out there, right?

Like that number that's here in the middle, it's not flowing, right?

Like it's pooling and like it it's not that it's sitting stagnant.

I get that.

Sure.

But it is different than a flowing current of a river, and that's the difference.

So anybody who maybe has been whitewater rafting or gone to any of the DNR stuff at our like when we have our state fair, right?

Like they have examples of this to show how water moves and what the current does, right?

And when you put contaminants in it.

I've done it with K-12 kids in engineering examples, right?

Like I like we I have seen this, took classes a long time ago to talk about that that flow, right?

Like that fluid fluid flow, and that's where the that's sort of sort of where that concern falls.

I get that it's no, it's not a sitting botter body of water, it's not stagnant, but it also is not a flowing body of water.

So I yield back.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councilman McCuling.

And on that point, um I'm gonna ask Council Pierce here because I love to pick on her.

The question of state regulation.

I assume we're preempted from putting anything in place to have higher water standards than the state requires.

I'd have to check, but I believe that's true.

Which I wish it weren't, so that we could do that, but that would be uh quite a situation with interst with intra-state commerce.

Um other questions?

Yes, Councilor Main.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, and thank you for being the one to ask that to Council Pierce because I was gonna ask that, and I think she gets tired with me being the one.

Oh, always going and ask her those kinds of questions.

Um when it comes to what kind of municipalities are you know putting their wastewater back into the system.

It sounds like right now there's currently three municipalities that quote unquote dump their wastewater into Indianapolis, is that correct?

We like to phrase it as discharge their treated effluent into tributaries of yes, Eagle Creek.

Okay, and I have to imagine I could be wrong, but I have to imagine Indianapolis puts their treated water back into water systems that flow to other municipalities across the state as well.

Yes, it is the function of every single municipal body that is that has a water treatment plant and a wastewater treatment plant.

And so that's Carmel, that's Noblesville, that's that's Cicero, um, that's Anderson.

That's that's all the receiving bodies of water that we receive have multiple, multiple, multiple um treated effluent discharges that come into um our our system.

Thank you.

All right, any other questions?

Hearing none, thank you so much for uh the hour and 25 minutes.

Thank you for your time.

Yes.

Um I'm gonna take a five-minute break so that we can stretch our legs, um, and then we will resume here in uh five minutes.

There you go.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Oh, yeah.

You were smart.

Thank you, everybody.

We're gonna resume, and we're gonna have a presentation from London Utilities.

Uh and uh gentlemen can introduce yourself and the floor is yours.

Uh well, greetings, thanks for having us.

My name is Ed Baskell.

I am the general manager of Lebanon Utilities, just north of you.

Our slogan is neighbor serving neighbors.

And uh I and we are publicly owned, not for profit utility, wholly owned by the city of Lebanon.

And I have Dr.

Bob Holden here to do the line share of the presentation for me.

I just wanted to mention a few things from the prior comments.

Uh we heard from the other wonderful presentations.

And that's the construction.

We're not looking to even start construction on this line to go to Eagle Creek until 2028.

A lot of these environmental studies are ongoing, and Bob will talk about that in a lot more detail.

Uh we are our slogan in Lebanon is neighbors in Lebanon is neighbor serving neighbors.

So we're wanting to be a good neighbor.

We've been doing public presentations on this project for I guess years now.

I'm just glad to be invited here.

And we're we we're wanting to be a good neighbor and work with IDEM, work with CEG, and do good watershed management by maintaining the water balance in your watershed and bringing water back into that watershed.

It's the sustainable practice.

I think the Hoosier Environmental uh Mr.

Day referenced how that's done out west a lot, having water go back.

So uh Dr.

Bob Holden, he's got a PhD in civil engineering.

He's a senior vice president at Western Engineering, and he will take you through in detail our process.

And uh we're happy to answer questions, and I'll turn it over to Dr.

Bob.

Thank you.

I'd like to start tonight by just to get used to that.

I'd like to start tonight by just thanking you for the opportunity to come to speak.

Um, just by introductions, I believe Ed has conquered that.

So tonight what we'd like to conquer is just the the concept of water reclamation.

Um we'd like to go through some project specifics to give you some detail and some fact.

Um we'd like to talk about permitting and protections offered by that permitting, okay, for the discharge into Eagle Creek, and then obviously take questions at the end.

Tonight I think it's important that we start with just some key definitions because I know that there's a lot of information being tossed out, and I've heard a lot of different terms used a lot of different ways, even this evening.

Drinking water, potable water.

It's been disinfected to drinking water standards.

It's the water that citizens is distributing to Lebanon, okay.

Waste water.

Wastewater is municipal or industrial in nature.

It's water, wastewater, potable water that's been used, discharged to a sewer.

It's water that has not yet been treated.

Okay.

Clean or treated water.

This is water that's been fully treated through a POTW or publicly owned treatment works.

An indirect discharge is an industry that's discharging to um a collection system tributary to a POTW.

And a direct discharge is tree treated water that is being discharged back to the environment via water body.

Okay.

Just so we can be on the same page with respect to units.

When we talk about potable water and and wastewater use, we talk in terms of millions of gallons per day, and I think we've conquered that tonight.

And generally, when we talk about stream flow, we talk about CFS.

Okay.

So we interchange those, which is cubic feet per second.

So I believe we've worked all that out, but I just wanted to make sure we are talking apples and apples tonight.

We saw this slide in the citizens' presentation.

Again, it's concept of the water cycle.

So in this case, water is taken from a um water source, either a surface water source, um, a groundwater source.

In this case, we're talking about Eagle Creek, but I think citizens is described that if the water will actually come from several different sources.

It's treated, it's distributed to Lebanon.

In Lebanon, it's going to be used residentially, commercially, and industrially, okay, in the Leap District.

After that water is used, it's returned back to the sewer where it is re brought to the Lebanon treatment plant, and it is treated into clean water.

That clean water then is being proposed to be discharged to one of two locations to either outfall 001, which is to Prairie Creek, or to Outfall 002, which is the proposed discharge to Eagle Creek.

And I think it's very important to realize, as Ed said, that at this point in time, this project is not anticipated to go into construction until 2028.

At this point in time, we have done the survey work for this project, and we are still we have not even developed a final routing for this project.

So the water balance, this is what we're here to talk about tonight.

Through the water supply and interlocal cooperation agreement, citizens is providing 15 MGD of average daily flow, 25 MGD of peak flow water to Lebanon utilities.

That water is being used in Lebanon and then will be returned either to the Sugar Creek watershed via Prairie Creek, which is the current location of Alpha 001, or brought back to the Upper White River watershed, either to Eagle Creek, which is the proposed Alfall 002.

Through the interlocal cooperation agreement, this is 15 MGD average daily flow, 25 MGD peak flow of treated water that's going to be brought back.

All of this water being discharged is regulated by the Clean Water Act, okay.

What is treated water look like?

This is an example of Lebanon Fluent from about three weeks ago that was pulled, okay, and it is treated water.

It has been gone, this water has gone through full secondary treatment.

Um, but we'll talk about the proposed treatment in just a second.

This is not wastewater, it is treated water.

So let's talk about 15 million gallons a day.

I know that there's been a lot of concern expressed about that volume, okay, and where that falls in relation to flooding, etc.

I'd like to show you just a quick video of 15 million gallons of water a day being discharged from a citizen's facility into the White River.

Okay.

Again, this is a treated water discharge back into a water body.

I'm quite sure that almost everyone in this room has seen this type of discharge, as this is very common throughout the state.

Throughout the state, um, the image on the left indicates all of the NPDES permitted discharges of treated water into water bodies in the state.

This water is all regulated to prevent impact to human and ecological health, okay.

And it's very important to realize that the returning of treated water to its watershed is an environmental best practice to maintain the water balance.

As we've described, there are downstream users that rely on that water as well as upstream users.

Why are we talking about Eagle Creek and why are we talking about this return?

Well, Lebanon sits in the Sugar Creek watershed.

The Sugar Creek watershed flows to the west to the Wabash River and then to the south.

The upper White River watershed flows southwest through the lower White River watershed and then to the Wabash River.

You can see with the star on the image on the right, that that is where Lebanon is located, and it sits right on the edge of the two watersheds.

So in this case, the water that's being bought to Lebanon needs to be brought back into the upper White River watershed to maintain the volumetric balance as the downstream users need that water.

Morgan County needs that water, Spencer County, etc.

Okay.

So what are we doing in Lebanon?

We're bringing 15 to 25 MGD into Lebanon in potable water.

So we're expanding the Lebanon wastewater plant because that water will be treated in Lebanon.

Treatment plant is being expanded in three phases.

The first two phases are under construction now.

Phase one will take us from five to ten MGD and it has to be done by 2027.

Phase two goes from 10 to 15 MGD, and again, these are average daily flows.

It goes from 15 to 20 MGD, and it is anticipated to begin in 2031.

The Lebanon facility currently is a biological nutrient removal facility.

We treat phosphorus biologically.

Additionally, we're including tertiary treatment, so this plant will offer full secondary and tertiary treatment of all flows that enter this facility.

Additionally, the um we will use ultraviolet we currently use and will continue to use ultraviolet disinfection for ultimate prior to discharge.

So we've established what Lebanon is doing, okay.

So let's talk about how we got here to talk about Eagle Creek.

Okay.

When we began to look at the pot or the different potentials for the return of water from Sugar Creek into the White River watershed, we looked at seven potential discharge locations.

Unfortunately, the area between Lebanon and Indianapolis doesn't have a lot of uh really natural conveyance.

There's not a lot of volumetric conveyance available.

So we looked at potential discharge locations for hydraulic capacity as well as water quality.

Okay, we didn't want to further impair any water qual or any water body that was already impaired.

We were looking for ideal locations for both.

The selection of was based on several different criteria, including watershed area enough to support a volumetric flow that we were looking at.

What the Q710, which is a seven-day, 10-year average low flow would be.

So this is the absolute low flow in the stream, a harmonic mean, which was kind of a sustained low flow in a stream, and then we looked at the upper end as well.

What was the 10-year and 100-year peak flow data for those streams?

Because on the one hand, we know that at some point in time we're likely to be the stream, okay, and on the other end, we want to make sure that we don't flood downstream users as well or downstream residents.

So from the seven potential locations, really only two were considered feasible.

Um the when we reviewed the preliminary routing and what it was going to take to get to those, the recommended option for Lebanon to come to Eagle Creek upstream of the reservoir was based on cost.

So we looked at potential from a technical ability as well as from a cost perspective, and that's what led us here.

Now, this is something that I'd like to address as well.

We've heard tonight in central Indiana there are five reservoirs that are used for drinking water use.

Of those five reservoirs, each of them have wastewater plants that are tributary to them.

Two of those reservoirs have direct dischargers into that source of drinking water, and that is those are current active reservoirs.

Additionally, uh, you know, um, you don't have to go very far upstream to look at Lake Freeman and Lake Schaefer, the city of Monticello discharges directly into Lake Freeman or into the Tippecanoe River immediately upstream of tip of Chipicano River.

So the concept of bringing treated water back into a water body and into a water body that's immediately upstream of a drinking water reservoir is not unique in this case.

Okay, it is done throughout central Indiana right now.

So let's transition and talk about permitting process.

What's that what's going to protect Eagle Creek from the discharge?

Okay.

We're going to cover this in two steps.

We're going to look at the municipal step, and then we're going to look at the industrial commercial step as well.

Okay.

So as we've heard referenced previous, the operational permit for the wastewater plant will be an NPDES permit, which is a national pollution discharge elimination system permit.

It's regulated by the Clean Water Act of 1970.

And this permit is designed to ensure that the discharge does not hurt water quality or people's health.

In essence, this permit translates the Clean Water Act into specific provisions tailored to the operation of each discharging facility.

Discharge limits come in two forms.

They establish a total maximum daily load to a water body, okay, which we've discussed, which is the phosphorus limit, okay, and how much mass is coming into a water body and what that water body can sustain.

And it's important to realize that these limits apply at the end of pipe, okay.

All discharge, the water, the limits that are applied apply at the end of pipe.

So you don't get the advantage of dilution and compliance with an MPDS permit.

You have to meet the water quality that you're required to meet at the end of pipe without any action on the natural water body that you're discharging into.

The second type of of eff or um water limits are technology-based limits, and they're either categorical standards or they apply at the end of the and they apply at the end of process generating the wastewater.

Typically these are industrial in nature.

The MPDS permit incorporates the more stringent of the two.

So where are we in this process?

I'll begin to describe this.

So right now we have applied for a waste load allocation.

So the discharge location that Luann had up and on the screen with Eagle Creek was from the waste load allocation, and that's where we indicated that we wanted to see preliminary limits.

Oh, okay.

Um the state wrote us back and provided those limits based on that location, and then also said, by the way, you need to submit an anti-degradation review.

And we'll cover this in just a second.

The reason that location was chosen was because that would provide us the most stringent limits, okay, that we needed to design our treatment for.

Okay.

So as we proceed, we're getting ready to submit an anti-degradation demonstration.

And through this, we have to demonstrate that the potential discharger may not or uh will not lower water quality, okay, or have a social or economic reason for doing so.

In this case, we're demonstrating that we will not lower water quality.

After the antidegradation demonstration has been approved, you go through construction permitting, and that is a technical review to make sure that you're able to meet these requirements.

In this case, we have been through the first phase for the treatment plan itself.

Um the second phase will be for the the discharge line.

And then the last is before going into operation or discharging the increased volumes, you have an operational permit or a final MPDS permit that's issued.

This final MPDS permit establishes discharge limits, it establishes monitoring that's required, it's the enforceable permit.

The anti-degradation demonstration, what is it?

So Indiana has a statewide anti-deg policy that is part of the water quality management process.

Okay, it's designed to prevent lowering of water quality in the state.

The anti-deg policy is designed to protect high water high quality waters of the state.

It's designed to protect aquatic and wildlife uses for the water body, it's designed to protect existing uses, it protects recreational uses, prevents modification or physical modifications, and the state policy is also subject to review by US EPA.

When we submit the anti-degradation demonstration to IDIM, IDEM will review that and they will hold public hearings associated with that.

So there will be open for public hearing and for public comment, and I believe it's written public comment and through public hearings.

I think that there are two that are required.

So from that, you all will get a chance to comment to IDEM on this discharge.

So after the facility goes into operation, there are reporting requirements associated with the discharge point.

Okay.

So the MPDS permit establishes what has to be monitored and the frequency of what has to be monitored.

And then Lebanon Utilities monitors their wastewater plant to demonstrate compliance.

Every piece of data that is taken at a wastewater plant is required to be reported to both the US EPA and to the Indiana Department of Environmental Management.

It's done on a monthly basis.

All of this is publicly discoverable, and you can see this.

EPA maintains the ECHO compliance database, and you can go in and take a look at any MPDS facility to see what their compliance record is.

Monthly reports of operation are also posted on the IDEM virtual file cabinet.

Lebanon has an excellent compliance record, and I would pit Lebanon's compliance record against anyone's.

They are a very well-run facility, and they are water professionals.

This is not fly by night.

Enforcement.

Okay.

Once an MPDS permit is issued, it carries both civil and criminal penalties associated with non-compliance.

So through this discharge point, Lebanon is stating that they will meet the compliance.

And if not, they are subject to civil and criminal penalties through this permit.

Additionally, one point that I would like to make is that the permits are also available to the public, their public documents.

The general public can review them, but interestingly, the general public can also initiate legal action against a discharger that's not in compliance with their permit.

So let's move upstream.

Let's talk about the industrial waste side of this.

The state pretreatment program has three objectives.

They prevent the introduction of pollutants into a POTW that interfere with the operations of a POTW.

They prevent the introduction, excuse me, prevent the introduction of pollutants into a POTW that will pass through the POTW without treatment.

And they also look to improve opportunities to recycle and reclaim municipal and industrial wastewater.

In this case, Lebanon has an existing pretreatment program that's been in operation for a long time.

Lebanon operates what's referred to as a non-delegated pretreatment program.

Okay.

Under this program, Lebanon Utilities is responsible for the enforcement of the pretreatment program.

IDEM is the issuing authority for all industrial waste permits that are issued in the City of Lebanon.

Okay.

Lebanon utility, through their responsibility, administers the program, they're responsible for records compliance, compliance inspection, and independent sampling to verify industries are meeting their compli their discharge requirements, and they're responsible for enforcement of the permit.

IDEM issues the permit, okay.

So if there is a bad actor, if there is an issue with an industry within Lebanon, Lebanon can immediately cease discharge for noncompliance through its pretreatment program.

IDEM has to be the one that terminates an IWP permit.

So Lebanon can stop a discharge.

They cannot terminate a permit for noncompliance.

That authority has to go to IDEM because they are the issuing authority.

So if Lebanon utilities isn't doing their job or industry isn't doing their job, IDEM can enforce against both or one or the other.

What triggers an IWP permit?

Okay.

And so I know that this was a question in the last presentation, so I'd like to spend a little bit of time here.

The first thing that triggers an IWP permit is a categorical standard review.

So if you are one of 58 listed industries, you automatically will get a IWP permit from IDEM, okay?

Pharmaceutical manufacturing triggers that.

The second way that you get an IWP permit is if you're a significant industrial user.

If you discharge more than 25,000 gallons a day of processed wastewater, and this excludes sanitary non-contact or boiler blowdown wastewater, you will get an IDM IWP permit.

Second is if you contribute a process waste stream that makes up more than 5% of the average dry weather hydraulic capacity or organic loading on a wastewater plant.

Boom, you get an IWP permit.

The last is if you have a reasonable potential in either the opinion of Lebanon Utilities or IDEM to adversely affect the treatment plant, you will get an IWP permit.

Okay.

Additionally, if you fall outside of that requirement or these requirements, you are governed by the sewer use ordinance of the City of Lebanon.

Okay.

The permitting standards that are applied through Lebanon, I can almost guarantee are the same permitting standards that are applied through the city or through citizens.

Okay.

They are pretty ubiquitous in our industry.

They may be tweaked just a little bit, but generally they are the same.

So tonight, in the effort of brevity, we'll stop with key takeaways.

Both citizens and Lebanon utilities take the sustainability of Eagle Creek and the reservoir as a high priority.

Okay.

We, like you use the part.

My parents live on Eagle Creek.

So I do believe that it is a significant value to this city, and we do take this seriously.

This is an effort to maintain water balance.

Okay.

We know that through the volumetric reserve or modeling that we have done, the reservoir water levels will remain unchanged.

I think we've talked about that, or citizens has.

And we will see no impact to ecology and no impact on recreational use.

And again, this is because we have not finished design yet.

The ecological studies are still ongoing.

Okay, they're being done as part of the Demon Anteg demonstration, et cetera.

So with that, I'd be happy to answer any questions.

And I know that you're itching, but I'm not done yet.

You wanted to put these on the record, so here they are.

Um this is the citizens email.

Uh that if you want to reach out to citizens to ask questions, this is the Lebanon utilities email if you would like to ask questions of Lebanon Utilities.

And these are the two websites that are active with the information for the project.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you, gentlemen.

Very informative.

We will start with some uh questions of the committee.

Counselor Evans.

Thank you, Chairman.

First, let me say thank you for being here and answering our questions and informing the public.

Um really appreciate that because I don't think you have to be here.

So it is greatly greatly from my perspective.

I tremendously appreciate you being here from Lebanon.

Um quick question on the anti derogation demonstration notices.

How will Indianapolis residents be notified or become aware for public comment period?

That is in IDEMS court, they're responsible for that, but I know for a fact that IDM goes out of their way to public notice that.

So I'm sure it's in the paper and on their website, et cetera.

I we don't control that.

CG, you're sitting in the back.

I feel like you have an obligation to the public on this.

Perhaps you guys can put it on your website where I know a lot of citizens will be going for information.

Um then I'm just gonna make a comment.

Uh it's not really a question, and then I'm I'm probably gonna be done on this.

Everything we've seen makes sense in the slides.

The the one thing that that I just can't seem to kick though, and I don't know if this is a question for you or if CEG or even the state is in in the world that we're in right now, and we're trying to make sure that we're not uh using too much water.

Why was there never considered just to create some sort of retention area in Lebanon and put the discharge into the retention and then recycle it and use it back on the site instead of transporting it, you know, miles and miles away.

I I I guess that I guess I can answer that question in the Central Indiana water study, uh, which uh citizens energy was involved in a lot of the local whole central central Indiana area.

About 10-15 years ago, they stuck that was one of the options they studied for looking at the water use for the state, and it was just prohibitively expensive and very difficult to do with the area they would have to flood to create a reservoir.

So it just it's something that didn't work from an engineering feasibility standpoint.

Uh I'm I'm sure I could get you more information on that, but uh it's a it's a start, it's a very widely published study.

But it's a good question.

So it was mostly uh cost thing.

More prohibitive because of the they didn't want to spend a couple extra hundred million dollars since they decided to spend like it was more than cost.

There's things like relocating railroads and raising roads uh 20 or 30 feet.

Uh we we I mean it's probably beyond the scope of this presentation, but we can get I can get you a copy of that study.

Sure.

You can see.

Thank you.

I appreciate that answer.

Thank you, sir.

Council McCormick.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Uh a couple clarifying items.

Thank you, yes, for being here and answering questions.

I think there's a lot of stuff that you presented that has been up in the air for a couple months now, and so I I appreciate that.

Um you mentioned 2028.

There were right-of-way letters that said work was going to start January 1st, 2026.

Those right-of-way letters are for the clean water lines, not for the discharge line.

The drinking water.

The two Lebanon lines.

Okay, so I think that's so the project has started, it's just not the back end, it's the front end.

Correct.

Okay.

Um what was the second location that was determined not to be usable?

Where was that?

It was at State Road 32 and 421.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Um of the things, and I don't necessarily so we have subject matter experts talking about this.

We've had folks from different areas and different organizations, right?

And a lot of times what I hear is like the water is good for people, and I know we don't want to impact our right, like we ecological and environmental side of things.

There's stuff that we don't know what these microplastics, micrometals, pharmaceuticals, and things like that, how they're going to impact.

So one of the things I I would request, and I think that needs to happen is an independent overview and an independent study of the questions that we have to show the data and the numbers on what the impact is or the lack of impact.

For the anti-digreg degradation, how are we going to get permitted if we don't know what comp businesses are coming in?

So like how how like we're putting the cart before the horse, it sounds like a little bit on that.

So we're going to go and have work on that.

But we don't know what businesses are going to be in the area yet.

We know what's being discharged and what we're capable of discharging.

So we can predict an effluent quality that's going to come out.

So if there is an issue where a business is coming into the business part, um, the way that the process works is they propose what they will discharge to Lebanon utilities.

And when we review that, we have the ability to look at that and say we can treat it or we can't.

Okay.

And it can stop right there.

If we don't, if we cannot treat it and meet that discharge limit, it's game over.

So okay, so it would be a non-starter option for development.

Okay.

Um if I could, Mr.

I'm almost done, Mr.

Chairman.

Sure.

Um the it was number three, it was that when that um when an industrial treatment is needed.

Reasonable potential from IDEM or Lebanon utilities, and that goes into where Indianapolis is left out, right?

Like, and I know that we follow the same regulations.

Is there a way to ensure that if citizens have a concern but Lebanon doesn't, that like we can that conversation happens, right?

I know we have our standards that we use across the board, but I'm just that's where it kind of goes to this we don't have control over the water coming into us.

Correct.

And right now there's very cooperative agreement between Lebanon and citizens, obviously in the supply and the discharge.

And so they the two entities need to work hand in hand to maintain that.

Right.

And I'm wondering, is there a way to ensure that, right?

Like we have a good working relationship now, but we have no idea who's going to be in the seats that we're in in the future, right?

So like is there a way to ensure that that's there?

I will defer to Ed.

I I uh we have a really good working relationship with CEG, and I know that you're concerned about well, what if we're not sitting in these chairs and people change 50 years from now?

But ultimately the uh the waters of the state are under IDEMs uh purview.

They do the NPTS permits, and it would be up to them to what would what would trigger a problem would be uh we would have a limit violation on an NPDS permit and they they would do enforcement, or on the CEG side if they had a problem with their water.

So IDEM does a really good job uh uh policing that.

I I have not heard at all of IDEM not enforcing limits, and it's actually very public.

They have a virtual file cabinet where you can look at what's going on with every permit in the entire state.

Well, uh so for the industrial waste permit, but like number three on your slide said have a reasonable potential in the opinion of Lebanon utilities or Idem.

Oh, okay.

I think Bob could probably answer that.

That these are different criteria for who includes you in the pretreatment program.

So what that would mean is if there an industry came along and they they were let's say they were small and didn't they weren't a categorical included, they didn't have uh a very high volume, but we thought you know this type of industry, we think you should be included in the pretreatment program.

Uh we we could force that or not could too.

Is there a way to add citizens to that line, right?

Like so if if we like if citizens would happen.

I know like that we share that and we have a good working relationship.

I just wonder if there's a way to word that in there, and not maybe it's just will we can would you consider that?

Is that something we can consider?

Uh well, like Bob said, the the programs are practically the same.

There's a template put out by the state, and we all seem to follow it.

We can talk about that.

Okay, yeah.

Uh and then my final item is phase three goes up to 20 MGDs?

But citizens said the max they're gonna use is 23.

Where's the delta for the three?

Can you repeat that, please?

So citizens, the max they're gonna they're gonna pull out of their supply to provide is 23 MGD.

But you are only going to be able to process 20.

Actually, they're gonna provide 25.

There is an imbalance when you look at potable water usage versus wastewater generated.

So just as an example, the average home uses about 500 gallons of water a day.

It generates about 310 gallons of wastewater a day.

Right.

Okay.

The 20 MGD is the pairing to that 25 MGD or 30 MGD total capacity in Lebanon that gets us that average daily flow of wastewater that we're expecting from both residential and industrial growth.

So the assumption is that this industrial area will keep water.

Like I guess that they're going to be like keeping that water versus Meta doesn't return all of the water that they use.

So they they have been allocated, I believe eight million gallons of a day of water.

They have allocated four million gallons a day of wastewater return.

Okay.

So I guess this goes back to Mr.

Chairman.

I just like I think an independent or just some answers on like showing how like how did they get to those numbers?

And I know that you don't have that, right?

But like that's where like I'm trying to figure out how the numbers all go together and knowing, right, like where how that calculation is made, right?

Like if we have X going in and Y going out, how do we show that for sure we know what that delta is?

So I guess that's and I'll leave it at that.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Yes, Council Brown.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Thank you for coming down and for uh given the presentation I found it very helpful.

So I have a question that's very high level, and to the extent you can answer, I get it.

Why is Lebanon the site for the LEAP project, given some of the costs that you mentioned to create like a reservoir there locally that doesn't require this massive pipeline?

Can you could you answer that?

Well, I I guess the the best answer is Lebanon is a really great city and everyone wants to move there.

And uh it we have we call it Love in Lebanon and uh actually we do have a good workforce.

We have uh we're working on housing availability.

There's there was uh the price of land, uh various factors that are probably uh over my head that because the the leap site was actually created by the IEDC.

So they were trying to be competitive as far as uh attracting jobs and it brought a lot of it's bringing a lot of jobs to Lebanon.

There's certainly a lot of construction jobs going on right now with all the building going on.

So there's there's a lot of factors that you know probably the economic development agency could could tell answer better than that.

But uh but we're just a good place to live.

That that makes sense.

Um and you you brought up kind of my next point to that, which is the IEDC was involved.

You may have heard me uh ask this question earlier.

Uh to what extent was there any involvement with some of the corruption that's made front page of the Indy Star.

As far as I know, there the corruption has nothing to do with LEAP.

It had to do with some other in because I read those stories too, but uh just to make sure that because they worried me when I saw them, but none of the people I worked with at the time were involved with it.

It had to do with a completely different program uh than what we were dealing with.

And the IEDC's involvement, I should mention because I came up earlier, is our ratepayers are not uh paying for this.

Uh we we have a growth pace for growth model where we have availability fees for people by capacity, and that's how we maintain capacity and uh CEG does it similar it has a similar method.

So what will happen if LEAP doesn't build out is right now the the SRF or state revolving loan fund loans are guaranteed by what they call IDD funds.

Uh they're like a state level TIFF where uh it's it's gonna make up the balance on the loan because Lebanon, we are not quite as big as Indianapolis, so as far as the this large uh amount of millions of dollars alone, we it's guaranteed by that.

So uh your rate payers are protected here with CEG and ours are protected as well.

And we're also getting uh capacity development for the civil district in Lebanon.

So it's it's it's been a good deal for our citizens, sustainable, and uh we're excited.

Yeah, I can imagine and I appreciate the answer.

That that is very clarifying.

Um I guess like just to put out a concern that I still have and then offer you the opportunity to assuage my concerns.

Um I was just reading a article from The Guardian that said that even compared to President Trump's first year of his first term, uh EPA um enforcement actions were down 81 percent.

And we also have a governor who is actively saying any state regulations more stringent than the EPA should be looked at for being dissolved.

Um specific thing he pushed for was uh to streamline the process for alternative thermal effluent limits, um, even though that was related to the 1999 chemical spill that killed all the fish.

So I guess my concern is you know, uh the the bottom line for all of the reasons why you know pollution can't happen is because of civil and criminal penalties, but it sure seems like we have both the judicial, like from the Supreme Court of the United States and executive branch that are aggressively uh deregulating in favor of making things better for industry.

And so you know, I guess that the the prospect of civil and criminal penalties isn't really letting me sleep any easier at night.

And I guess I'm just offering you the opportunity to help me.

Yeah, I'll comment on that.

Yeah, I I've been uh a water quality professional for 30 years.

I'm a professional engineer.

Uh licensed in wastewater operations and water operations.

I don't maintain it anymore because I'm the general manager.

And just but it's I I really care about maintaining water quality, and so does my entire organization.

Uh I I row with the Indiana Rowing Club.

I hike at Eagle Creek a lot.

Um we're very committed to making sure the water qual water is safe.

And and we and we're not really seeing that at the local level.

We we are our limits in the state of Indiana are controlled by I DEM.

So EPA can make a change, but the state has what they call primacy, the way environmental law goes.

That means that the state limits are either the same or more stringent than what what is federal.

And the government and it takes an uh an act, you know, it takes laws and ordinances to change these limits.

So it's not like uh some uh somebody is going to do an executive order and the limits are going to change.

And as far as enforcement, uh I think uh Dr.

Holden said that a citizen can bring an action.

So if if somebody doesn't uh bring something from Idem, you can, or one of your constituents can.

We have the virtual file cabinet roll that is public.

So I I I really think that uh our local limits are are are gonna be maintained and water quality is very important to us.

I I will just say that as somebody whose spouse is an attorney who does sue public uh uh organizations for for breach of public trust, uh that that's not a very easy prospect, and uh you can look at our uh tax returns to prove that.

So thank you.

Yeah.

Councillor Delaney.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Um quick question.

Is the wastewater treatment plant, does it treat any water from the rest of your utility, or is it just strictly water coming from the LEAP district almost?

I want to use the word like closed system.

Um I'm just trying to like get a handle on what's coming back, I guess.

It treats all water or all wastewater generated in the city of Lebanon, both through LEAP and through the civil city.

So then the water coming back, are you regulating how many gallons a day are going to Indianapolis out of that?

Yes.

And how do you make that decision?

So there is a there will be a pump station, so the discharge line will come out, there will be a uh T, there will be a pump station that will either the water will be flow to Prairie Creek or will flow to the pump station, and that pump station will take it to the city.

And we have the ability to pump varying rates to control that um that flow split.

But how do you make the decision of how many million gallons are coming back to the reservoir?

We know what's coming in, and we know what the percentage needs to be of what's generated in Lebanon versus what is coming in from CEG, and then we can make that decision on what needs to come back to the city.

Okay, thank you.

I guess I can add to that that there's it's going to be uh a uh a pump station that pumps it, and the pump is sized, so it's not going to be more than 15 million gallons a day.

So 25 million gallons a day the maximum.

So it's it so there's a limit on that.

It's not like we're going to if if we were to have a rain event and there's more water than that coming to the wastewater plant, we would put it in Prairie Creek, and the max we could send to Indianapolis would be 25 million gallons a day.

That helps.

All right.

Um I just have three quick clarifying questions.

Uh on your one on the Lebanon WWTP expansion page, you mentioned tertiary treatment.

Can you just explain that briefly?

What that is?

Tertiary treatment is final filtration.

So our all water will be filtered as part of the final process of treatment.

To take out particulates.

Okay.

And then um, I I would add one thing to that.

Um, and a point that I didn't expand on earlier.

The Lebanon facility will have both biological and chemical phosphorus removal.

So we will remove phosphorus biologically, we will remove it chemically as well.

That tertiary filtration also helps to get to ultra-low phosphorus limits.

Okay.

Okay.

And you said that uh the facility, wastewater facility, and you anticipate all contaminants and then you feel you can handle them.

So uh just to clarify if I understand what you said.

If a company wants to come into Lebanon or wants to relocate at LEAP, and they show you what their affluence is going to be, and you say, sorry we can't handle that.

They cannot locate in Lebanon nor in Lee, correct?

Correct.

All right.

And then the big question of the night are you guys uh willing to consider relocating the outfall.

So the the question or the answer to that is it's in planning stages.

The final location has not been determined.

Okay.

We chose the red triangle on the map to get the the very lowest limits.

All right.

Um yes, we're looking for the most expedient route to get there.

Okay.

Wonderful.

Thank you.

Any other questions?

Yes.

Councilor McCormick.

Sorry, thank you, Mr.

Chair.

I just want to make sure.

So currently Lebanon is five million gallons a day.

Yes.

So are you ready, like staffing-wise and everything to go to money?

That like so like that component, like that expansion.

Um just just a big part.

I mean, we're talking like right or quadrupling what our capacity is.

Yeah, I would say that we're ready because when you when you have a treatment plant, you have uh you know plant operators and you don't add a plant operator every time you add a million gallons a day through it, you just kind of bigger things.

But we are staffing up, and we do have 55 employees right now.

We expect to add some.

And uh it's also going to be gradually building up through the plant as we because it's we have a lot of construction underway.

But it's an excellent question, and it's something we've definitely been thinking about uh with all the growth we're having in Lebanon.

Thank you.

Seeing no other questions, gentlemen, thank you very much.

Oh, can I can I add one thing?

Bob, can you go to the last slide again, please?

I just wanted to make sure everyone had the information because if there's any questions, we want to have them.

We want to make sure the information is out there.

And one thing on our information page is we have our uh preliminary engineering reports for both the for the way I guess the wastewater is what you're most concerned about here, and that's a report that's probably about what about 500 pages long, and that was part of what was required to get our uh state revolving loon fund loan.

Uh and that and probably about a pile this high of other paperwork, so it was a lot more than it takes to get a uh five dollar coupon at Menards.

It really was a lot of work, and uh we we worked hand in hand with the with IFA and IEDC.

And I I I would add that that the state did fund a water reuse uh study in Lebanon and it involved a lot of our involved Meta and Lily talking about how they could reuse water as far as closed loop systems on their site.

We we our means and method is using the pretreatment program and and that analysis.

We can't really dictate what their proprietary processes are on site, but I will tell you from from many conversations with them, they are very concerned about water reuse, mainly because it reduces their cost.

So that they're very incentivized to for water reuse because it affects their bottom line.

So they're they're already looking at that and and doing closed loop whenever they can.

But I again I can't go in there and tell them what to do with their plant.

The way I can't go in your house and tell you how long to take a shower or things like that.

So uh with that, I just want to make sure everyone had the chance to see it on the screen and get the information.

Thank you.

If you could read it too for people who maybe can't see the screen or um that was gonna happen.

Um citizens email is C L W S B at Citizens Energy.

Lebanon utilities email is water wastewater projects at Lebanon-utilities dot com.

No.

Why don't we do that again with the mic on?

It helps.

Okay.

Citizens email is CLWSP at citizensergy group.com, and the Lebanon utilities email is water wastewater projects at Lebanon-utilities.com.

Gentlemen, thank you very much.

Thank you.

We're going to proceed to our public comment period.

Again, if anybody wishes to speak, make sure you're signed up there.

Um and we will ask when you uh just give your name and your zip code of your residence.

Yes.

We have a list here, and we also have a statement that our clerk Nance will read.

Before we open the floor to public comments, we would like to remind committee members and the public of a few ground rules.

So everyone can have a fair chance to speak and be heard.

It is important that we each observe the following rules.

First, each speaker will be limited to two minutes.

Second, any public comments must reasonably relate to the agenda item under consideration.

Third, speakers who stray from the item under consideration or become unduly repetitious, may be asked to move on to their next point or conclude their comments.

Finally, attendees who cause disruptions to prevent the committee from proceeding through tonight's agenda in a reasonably efficient manner will be removed.

Please remember that some types of threatening speech or incitement to violence are not protected by the First Amendment at all.

We will deal with those issues if they come up, but we don't think they will.

We have consent.

Okay.

I'm going to read like four names, and if you could just like line up.

Okay.

I have William Bieler, Larry, Kane, Greg, Katois, and Rachel.

One thing too, I'll just admit I always feel compelled to say two minutes is runs fast.

So get your points out early.

Don't linger because the buzzer will go off, and we'll ask you to sit down.

Please proceed.

My name is William Bowler, uh, Zip COB 46226.

Um I've been on the up here talking a lot about data centers recently.

Uh I'm an ex-AI researcher out of IUPUI as well as CMU.

I'm here trying to spread some more information about how we are aware there's one data center out of LEAP, and it's about 14, 1500 acres.

Um there is a large uh scaling law on AI.

The idea behind it is the bigger you make the model, the bigger you make the data, the uh more accurate it's gonna get.

But typically you got a five times the amount of resources, just to double the accuracy.

Um I don't have a lot of confidence in Lebanon.

If they can't tell us who the other seven are, uh they must know.

There must be an NDA.

Uh my guess would be that they're not going to tell us who's ready for this.

We've seen numbers of 20 MG, whatever the number is, 20 gallons, million gallons, 30 million gallons, and even a suggestion of 100 initially, which is the size of Indianapolis.

These guys want to build an Evansville or Indianapolis right outside of Indianapolis without Indianapolis jobs.

So I would like to know if they're so confident in being able to handle the resources as such, then why are they taking Indianapolis resources?

That's all I got.

Thank you.

Mr.

Kane.

Mr.

Chairman, members of the committee.

My name is Larry Kane of Carmel, Indiana, 4603.

Uh I'm an ad hoc participant with the Eagle Creek Park Advisory Committee.

Thanks for the opportunity to comment on this important issue.

By background, I have visited Eagle Creek Park numerous times to enjoy its natural ambience and photograph the various birds that frequent the reservoir.

It's a wonderful asset for the city.

One of my greatest concerns with the current plans of Leap Industries Wastewater to be treated at Lebanon's Wastewater Treatment Plant and then piped to Eagle Creek at the very entrance, basically, of the reservoir, very very close to the entrance to the reservoir.

The concern is the potential adverse impact to the water quality and wildlife of Eagle Creek Reservoir.

My concerns arise out of 43 years of experience with water quality issues as a former regulator at IDEM and as a private environmental law practitioner.

The public knows very little about the industries to be located in the LEAP district.

They know very little about the industrial wastewaters to be generated, and knows very little about the specific pollutants and concentrations of those pollutants to be discharged.

When I would say that properly designed and implemented wastewater treatment can remove many contaminants to low levels.

Prime example was alluded to by Luann Baker, the Guide Corporation wastewater spill in 1999.

May I have a couple of seconds more?

The LEAP district, as we perceive it, is intended as a quantum leap forward in 21st century technology.

Our concern for the adverse potential adverse impacts of the treated wastewater from LEAP to be discharged into the Eagle Creek reservoir leads us to recommend that the LEAP's innovative technologies should extend to the treatment of its wastewaters and not be limited to the industrial processes themselves.

So specifically, we recommend that the LEAP wastewater should be sufficiently treated to allow its recycling at the Lebanon utilities site for reuse by the LEAP district.

This would spare Eagle Creek Reservoir from any potential mishap in industrial operations or treatment processes.

Thank you.

Mr.

Chairman, members of the committee, my name is Greg Kaforis.

I'm an attorney with law officers at 11 Monument Circle.

I'm the chair of our environmental practice group.

Like Larry, I'm an engineer and worked at I DEM when it was the old State Board of Health about 40 years ago.

My concern is that we have a black box up at Leap District.

We don't know what's coming out of it.

Uh currently, we don't know what Lily is going to discharge or Meta or any of these other 20 potentials.

And the idea that the wastewater treatment plant, a municipal wastewater treatment plant at Lebanon, can treat those unknown quantities.

Tertiary treatment is just another filter.

It does not eliminate pharmaceutical waste.

Somebody mentioned Xanax or ZEP Bomb or whatever it is in the water.

NPDS has proposed FNUI limits that don't touch any of that.

There's standard municipal wastewater limits, phosphorus, nitrogen, BOD, total suspended solids.

There's nothing about industrial limits.

If they want to do a non-degradation element in the permit, there's a provision for non-degradation, which means the discharge cannot increase the uh quant the concentration of the receiving stream.

Well, I doubt there's any zip bound or Xanax in Eagle Creek Reservoir where they're discharging.

And there that permit would require them to treat it down to zero.

I don't know.

And the anti-degradation rule Idem has has got a loophole in it, you could drive a truck through, except except unless it impacts economic development.

Now, come on.

Now, if Lebanon utilities would commit to a strict anti-degradation policy without this loophole, maybe we don't have a problem.

There Wessler's report recommended reuse.

The tertiary system is in there for wastewater reuse.

Where did that come from?

So and as the old cowboys used to say, don't drink downstream of the herd.

And that's exactly where we are.

Thank you.

Excuse me.

Okay, after Rachel, we're gonna have Leslie, Maddie, Megan, and Don, please.

Thank you.

My name is Rachel Wolverton, and I am the area code of uh 46254.

And I started the petition that Luann mentioned today to save Eagle Creek.

Um I wanted to read some of the comments from the citizens who left comments on that petition because that is why I started it for them to have a voice in all of this.

Um, very quickly, though, I would like to answer Councilor Jesse's question about why Meta chose Lebanon based on a article from Fox News in November of 2024.

Basically, it came down to um water pre-allocation and tax breaks.

So some of the comments that I have that I would like to read.

Eagle Creek is the only reason I choose to continue raising my family in Indianapolis.

I agree with that.

Indianapolis doesn't have a whole lot in terms of natural environment.

So Eagle Creek is an absolute treasure for the community and local wildlife, not to mention a critical source of drinking water for the Indy area.

Eagle Creek is a special place holding safety for all living creatures.

Our community wholeheartedly disagrees with the use of Eagle Creek for the Leap Project, and we demand action to save this precious resource.

Parks are our sanctuary.

Protect the reservoir and the natural habitat that surrounds it.

This west side retreat for us and the wildlife that call it home.

I have lived in Indianapolis for 27 years of life.

I believe it is our responsibility as citizens and humans to preserve Eagle Creek and the wildlife that inhabits it, as well as the communities that benefit from it.

I volunteer at Eagle Creek Orienthology Center, and I would hate to see the bird sanctuary go under.

This project threatens the local ecosystem of Eagle Creek.

We must stop the Leap Project from using Eagle Creek Reservoir.

This precious water source for humans and wildlife should not be disrupted.

I love Eagle Creek.

I love paddling, hiking, playing, biking, everything.

Please keep it beautiful.

Good evening.

My name's Maddie.

So Don writes, I have been an avid birder in Eagle Creek Park for more than 40 years, and a volunteer at the Ornithology Center since 2009.

Eagle Creek Park and its reservoir is without question the best birding location in central Indiana due to it due to its variety of habitat.

It is not worth the risk to the wildlife to remove and then return water of undetermined quality.

We also have, let's see, uh Laura B.

who says Eagle Creek is a vital drinking water source, recreational paddling site in migratory waterfowl preserve.

Water is not a renewable resource, so please do not take it away.

And then I agree with Jocelyn, where she says uh the environmental impact of this project that is going on is very concerning.

Beyond Eagle Creek Park, having a section of the state that is nationally recognized as a sanctuary for migratory birds.

It also serves as a source of drinking water, which I noted from the slides.

It's not synonymous with treated water for a large part of Indianapolis.

Risking the health of residents through possible water contamination andor water shortages is not responsible stewardship of resources.

Those in a position to make decisions on behalf of the city and its residents has it in their power to look out for the very people they were sworn in to serve.

So she urges folks such as our lovely Mayor Hogstadt to be the hero that stands up for what is right and needed.

Protect the environment and your city's residents and future residents.

And I myself would like to make my own comment that I've heard a lot of adjectives such as expedient and cost efficient, and given such a vital resource that we have is Eagle Creek.

I don't appreciate that it's um it was chosen because it was the cheap option.

Thank you.

I take all my friends, my family there.

I do hikes, sometimes round up 10, 15 people over in the nature preserve.

For me, this is the best thing about living in Indianapolis, and it really makes me sad to the point that I'm considering selling, I have seven rental properties, selling it all and leaving Indianapolis.

It's really hard for me to imagine that they would allow the possibility of the destruction of something that is so precious to this city that makes this city so amazing.

Because what Meta can't afford to build a retention pond, Lily can't afford, and I know Lily has had a hand in donating the land where Eagle Creek was made, and I used to tell people about that, and now I find it very ironic, you know, that they may have a hand in its long-term destruction, but that's it.

I think I'll just leave it at that.

Thank you.

We have Mary Clark, Jeff, Danielle, and Cynthia left.

Thank you.

Thank you.

It's a privilege.

I'm uh appreciate being here and uh also that this committee would meet.

And you had been thanked by others as well.

And um firstly, I'm a member of the uh Indiana Forest Alliance and the Hoosier Environmental Council, both of which were represented uh will be represented here tonight.

Um like this lady, uh I did know Mr.

Lilly himself.

I was I am probably the only one here old enough to have ridden through the valley that is now covered by the reservoir.

And it was a privilege then, and um I thought it was beautiful then with the Chestico Creek.

And so uh I uh that was some time ago, and I stayed on my horse that time.

But time anyway.

So um I just uh would like to ask us all does one crime uh this whole canoodling under uh Governor Holcomb and with this uh administration and the in Indiana Economic Development Commission require us still to give our um public resource away in in this time and date.

Uh I think the young people from um I'm sorry, this nice young lady uh uh from uh citizens has great faith in an IDEM uh that uh can no longer function, and if we're real lucky in another two years, we won't have to bother with it at all.

Uh so I hope that that could be cured.

But right now I would ask these things.

Uh these are a public resources.

We gave her eight acres downtown to the Simons.

Uh we're we're a park that we all enjoyed, and now we have half of that.

And so what now are we giving away?

We own the city of Indianapolis.

This is our water.

This is uh if you can own such a thing, this is ours.

Uh the creatures uh that live there, they're not ours, they are their own.

They deserve to be there.

And um also uh what kind of humans are we that we would give away our natural heritage.

We give away our souls when we do this.

Mary Bookwalter, 46219.

I used to be 46230, but uh times have changed thanks to him.

So thank you.

Thanks, counselors, for holding this uh lengthy meeting.

Clark Collow, 46205.

A couple quick points.

Uh affordability.

Uh we've been assured earlier that uh the ratepayers would not be required to uh carry the freight on the pay the bills on this project.

And I just wonder why shouldn't the ratepayers, as a matter of a public charitable trust and the rate base, receive a benefit, receive a receive a premium for the investment that's being made in this.

And I would note uh also that you know Citizens Energy has several for-profit uh entities.

I'll call them maybe sister entities or subsidiaries or something that are for-profit.

They run the Westfield uh water utility, uh Morgan County, um, I think down uh uh down uh up uh Madison County as well.

Anyway, uh I know citizens is uh cognizant of affordability because uh they always refer, they frequently refer to pocketbook issues in terms of their rate, their rates and their sense was supposed sensitivity uh to their rate making, and I think there's an opportunity there.

Another quick point.

Um worst case scenario.

I think Mr.

Rich made a good uh point about it earlier.

Um I I've been on hand to see the 1994 uh drought and the 2012 drought, which was were doozies.

Uh and uh the with climate change and meteorological changes, it's uh it's a different world, and I I get all the environmental feeds or many of them uh that uh are uh rather uh alarming to read in terms of what what we're looking at in terms of our changing weather pattern.

So uh, you know, we need to be uh keep that in mind as well.

And I'll say this before the buzzer goes off.

It's nice to have my full my full time here because when I presented to the hearing officer at Citizens Energy in September of 2024, after my two minutes was up at for an 8 o'clock AM hearing, the hearing examiner bit had a sort of security guy come and uh usher me off the podium.

Thanks.

Thanks, counselors.

Uh uh thanks for the opportunity to testify and holding the hearing today, Jeff Stant uh at uh 46219 uh zip code uh and representing forests for all uh today.

Uh I want to point out that that I have yet to see any data or information about the return routes impact on forests, and it can't go to that location, I think, without crossing the Fishback Creek watershed, which is heavily forested in that area, and uh really rich riparian forests there that is hardly found anywhere uh uh in the cities that that's that's that high quality.

It was one of the highest ranked forests in our inventory of all the forests in the city.

It outranked, you know, a lot of park forests.

Uh the sec so we don't know what the impact on force is going to be, but it could be significant uh with that return route.

Uh I I also want to point out that this that I heard them talk about you know a hundred years of past flow measurements and so on to to say they've studied this.

And and I think the point that uh Mr.

Rich was making about uh uh the need for a baseline, a competent baseline is crucial here.

Uh we're talking about the future.

The climate change has come about in a in in gangbusters, and we need to be looking at Purdue University's modeling and and the very erratic weather patterns we're getting now with lots of precipitation or no precipitation.

Instead, we've got this looking 100 years back and looking at talking about flow measurements based on flow gauges that are in Zionsville and then downstream of the reservoir on Eagle Creek.

And and I, you know, I I I think that it's just too simplistic, and it's looking at the past, and these are questions that should have been put out for the public to examine and experts to examine two years ago and respond to then and not be in this after-the-fact matter uh being handled now.

Uh and uh uh I think that's enough.

Thank you.

Was there anyone else that wanted to speak?

Good evening.

Thank you all for being here.

Uh my name is Cynthia Pierman, and my zip code is 46234.

Uh I live near um U.S.

136, Crawford's Little Road and Country Club Road.

I have been here since 1997 when I moved here straight from high school to go to school.

And I've always thought Indianapolis was the most wonderful city.

I tell everybody you should come here.

We have the greatest city.

It's small.

We used to have good traffic.

Um we have lots to do here, and I've always lived on the west side because of Eagle Creek.

Um in fact, we're considering moving, and I still want to live on the west side near Eagle Creek.

It's an important place to me and my family.

And my concern is one that's been echoed here already tonight many times.

Um my concern is that once the infrastructure is built and the players change and the regulations are weakened, Indianapolis is stuck holding the bag.

Um Eagle Creek Reservoir is a precious resource and ecosystem that must be protected, not just for the moment, but for generations to come.

And no amount of money uh can really replace that.

So we need to really uh just protect it.

So thank you.

We got one more here.

Um hi, my name is Amy Guzman.

I live in um 46214.

I almost forgot.

Um I really am not very informed about this.

I but I have just moved to Eagle Creek area the last three years, three and a half years, and it's a treasure to me and my family and my dogs.

Um I will say I attended the um Native American, it was the Indigenous Day event there this year, and I learned a lot about the history of that area, um, both from Native tribes and you know the pathways through our water rays here and why maybe they don't want to use the Wabash River, I don't know why, but that was a huge waterway of the um Native Americans.

Um then as well I learned about the um the problem of flooding in that area and how that was such a big deal for such a long time, and how they had to do so much work to fix that.

Um so as I said, I don't know a lot, but hearing those concerns um generally that's I just wanted to put that out there.

I really want to honor the land of the indigenous, and I have a lot of that in my blood, so um I just wanted to make that statement.

Thank you.

Is that everybody?

All right.

Um we appreciate everybody hanging in tonight.

This is uh a marathon session, but I think this subject warranted uh this commitment, and I really appreciate the staff who has been here all night.

Thank you so much.

Um appreciate that very much, and I appreciate everybody's uh involvement.

I implore you to stay involved, stay engaged, follow the websites, read the paper, listen to the radio, go to the meetings, uh make yourself heard.

Uh we do hear you.

The state officials maybe not quite as much, but they hear you too, uh, and just keep it up, and uh because this is such an important thing, and as the Parks Committee, uh I view Eagle Creek as one of the gyms in this city as well.

Uh so that's why I thought it was important that we all sit down and um bear through this.

So I appreciate your time.

We are adjourned.