Good evening.

I'll call the August Indianapolis Historic Preservation Commission meeting to uh order.

Uh we have one set of minutes in the packet that uh you all received that we need to get approval from.

Are there any corrections to that?

If not, I'll take a motion for their approval, please.

Thank you.

Annie and get a second, please.

Thank you, Kristen.

Any final comments?

All those in favor of the motion, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, same sign, please.

Okay, thank you.

We have one item under old business, uh, the Flanner House Home Neighborhood.

And Grace, I believe you're gonna give us a presentation on that, please.

Coming down here so I can look at you guys.

Um so yeah, Flanner House Homes, the historic area.

Over 10 years ago, the neighborhood leaders of the Flanner House Homes neighborhood Flanner House Homes National Register Historic District first reach out, reached out to the IHBC with an interest in local district designation.

The initial presentation to the commission was in 2015.

The same group of leaders, including IHPC Commissioner Disa Watson Summers has recent recently reached out to IHPC staff with a renewed interest in district designation and are interested in finalizing their initial effort.

The IHPC staff wanted to reintroduce this initiative to the commission as the members of the commission have changed since it was initially introduced.

The neighborhood was developed due to the need for housing following World War II.

Returning soldiers needed homes for themselves and for their families.

As many new developments were only an option for white soldiers, the returning black soldiers also needed a solution.

The solution was building your own home and helping your neighbors build theirs.

Those looking to live in the Flanner House Homes neighborhood were broken into work groups.

These groups typically included men with specialized experience, including plumbing electrical, carpentry, etc.

If you were a member of a work group, you work 20 hours a week building homes until all homes for that work group were completed.

They broke ground on the first home in the neighborhood in August of 1950, and the first group of homes was completed by 1953.

By 1959, the entire neighborhood of 181 homes was complete.

A few of the homes in the neighborhood are still occupied by the original residents, and several still occupied by direct descendants of the person or persons who helped build the home.

The neighborhood has seen an increased an increase in demolition and new development in the area that is incompatible with the original structures built in the neighborhood, which is why Flanner House Homes is seeking designation to protect its structures and the unique story of how the neighborhood came to be.

All right, Grace, thank you.

Questions from the commission for Grace.

Okay, thank you.

We'll look forward to hearing what the result of the uh the meeting is in uh September.

Perfect.

And I'm just gonna stay here for new business.

All right.

Uh we have one item under new business this evening.

Uh Meg, that is the uh yeah, please.

I'm sorry, I do have one.

I'm not sure it's for Grace.

I think it's might be for our attorney.

Um I was very interested in the proposed deaf definition of demolition.

And would is that unique to what the city's definition is?

So I can I do want to Well, so we've talked a lot about the definition of demolition, and um we don't actually have a concrete written demolition definition of demolition.

Um DBNS has a guideline for a definition, but not like a solid definition.

So for our plans, it is defined how we define it in our plans, which is why we have this pro-proposed definition for this plan.

Um later on you will see the proposed definition for Meridian Kessler, which looks a little bit different.

Well, that's what I was thinking about was Meridian Kessler, and somebody told me that it unless all four walls come down, it's not considered demolition, it's considered a remodel.

So like I said, we've had lots and lots of conversations with DBNS, and so their definition, it kind of follows like from roof to footer, so from roof to stud, that would be considered a demolition.

Um, where for our plans, we can we can impose our own definitions of demolition.

So this is what we have currently for the Flanner House Homes neighborhood, and then Meridian Kessler, we've worked with the neighborhood and with Chris on developing one more suitable to that neighborhood.

And so it says proposed, so does that presume that we have to adopt it and then it has to go to DMD or how does that work?

Yeah, so it would work just like any other plan.

So the IHPC would adopt the plan with the proposed with what the definition would be, and then we would take it to the MDC and they would adopt the plan, hopefully, and then that would be that definition for that neighborhood.

This would be specific for Flanner House.

Yes.

Okay, got it.

Thank you.

Oh, yeah, sure.

Any other questions?

Yeah, go ahead, Anson, please.

Um given that Christmas Addicts is not individually protected.

Was it considered to try and include Christmas Addicts in this uh historic designation since you know it definitely is worthy and has an obvious relationship to the neighborhood?

There were some conversations before I signed on as staff.

I don't know the exact reasons for leaving it out.

Meg, I don't know if you have any more insight into that.

No, I don't.

I it all I can say is that this plan is following the boundaries of the National Register District, so in Christmas Addicts is not included in that.

I guess my concern is that Christmas Accent isn't protected, you know, and definitely should be.

I think that would definitely be because I think it's rated as an outstanding Christmas Addicts.

So I think if we did want to designate that in the future, that would be a very strong reason for like an individual designation since it's Crispus Addicts, while significant, stands out from kind of the architectural style of the residential neighborhood that its neighbors.

So if we wanted to designate it, I would say that an individual property designation would be more appropriate for that site.

Any recommendations we could reach out to IPS and have a conversation with them about that and see if they'd be willing to support that.

I would assume they would be, and it would be something we could look at individually.

Meg, I don't know if you have any thoughts about that.

Yeah, staff would be happy to do that.

Okay, yeah, why don't you we can direct the staff to do that and then just get back to the commission and see see where we can go with that?

Sure.

And if I could just speak to the question about the definition of demolition.

So the during the exercise of trying to go through a designation effort with Meridian Kessler, we quickly realized that there really isn't a standard for demolition.

So this is kind of a work in progress.

We're trying to nail down the exact wording for this.

We think we have a pretty good definition, as we've talked internally, uh, but it's gonna be really critical to get that absolutely perfect since this is really the only thing other than new construction that we're gonna be reviewing along with the same concept for Marie and Kessler.

So stay tuned for that.

But we are looking into that and trying to get that wording just right.

Okay.

Annie, please.

Um, just real quickly, I wanted to add my support to what Anson said.

I think that would be amazing and really something that needs to be done.

Yeah, absolutely.

I would enjoy that, so I'll look into it.

Okay.

All right, any follow-up?

Grace, Grace, thank you.

All right, we'll move to new business now, Meg.

We've got one item with Circle Tower at 55 Monument Circle, please.

Yes, I'm gonna have Grace considered.

Grace is on the hands.

Okay, go ahead.

Please.

Uh the historic Circle Tower was designed by the Indianapolis-based architecture firm of Rubish and Hunter and the Arc Art Deco architectural style.

The firm included Egyptian-inspired decorative detailing on the building, which can be found both on the exterior and the interior.

The building was completed in 1930 by the general contractor, William B.

Jungclaus Company.

Rubish and Hunter, as well as John Klaus, were behind the design and construction of some of Indianapolis's most significant historic buildings, including Old City Hall and the Indiana Theater.

In addition to Circle Tower, they also designed the Columbia Club and the Circle Theater, also located on Monument Circle.

Inside the lobby walls are black travertine, marble except accents with typical art deco motifs and bronze with geometric flowers stylized greyhounds, birds, zigzags, and concept concentric squirrels.

The doors of the three elevators are of solid bronze with medallions showing muscular figures of men as working parts of a machine.

A salute to the mach the machine age that inspired many Art Deco architects.

The floors of the lobby and in the corridors throughout the building are marble and Italian Tarrazzo.

On the second floor, a 1930s barbershop remains virtually unchanged since it was constructed.

It's opulent black and silver decor featured motifs and upstylized figures pursuing various sports, as well as depictions of the shops service the shops services extended with sunbursts and zigzags.

The exterior of the Circle Tower building was previously designated when the Monument Circle District Plan was adopted in 2013.

The plan identifies Circle Tower as the city's finest example of the art deco deco style.

The Marion County Interim Report rates the structure as outstanding, and Circle Tower was individually listed in the National Register of Historic Places in 1997.

The HBC staff, in cooperation with the Department of Metropolitan Development and Holiday Properties, would like to introduce it introduce an initiative to locally designate the interior first floor lobby and second floor 1930s barbershop per the attached floor plans.

For the long term preservation of these uniquely significant and intact interior spaces within the tower.

DMD and Holiday Properties have entered into a memorandum of agreement for city incentives, and the agreement includes this interior designation.

Holiday is also pursuing historic tax credits with the Indiana State Historic Preservation Office, and all parties have met on on site and understand the importance and the necessary steps moving forward to complete this designation effort.

A separate plan specifically for the interior spaces will be prepared for your review and presented at the September or October IHPC regularly scheduled meeting, and I can answer any questions.

All right, Grace, thank you.

Questions from the commission about the uh designation of the interior spaces.

Yeah, go ahead, answer please.

Well, just because I worked out of this building for every day for about seven years, and um I understand it pretty well, and we we touched a lot of the spaces in there.

There's uh I wanted to know um obviously the spaces that were included um are amazing.

Uh, but they're also um corridors and and stairwells and everything that that have original materials.

I mean, stone wainscoting seven feet high and stone flooring that uh obviously should be protected as well.

Um is there uh an opportunity to expand that to those areas?

I mean, there's even mill work that original water closets back when you had restrooms that were only toilets, and then you actually went back to your office to wash your hands.

I mean, there is examples of these.

Original doors, uh, transoms, all those things are still evident in the building, still exist in the building.

Um, and it'd be we'd be remiss if we didn't protect those uh uh features as well, as they would be impossible to recreate uh uh from the financial standpoint.

I can probably speak to it maybe answer that one.

So DMD is already entered into a memorandum of agreement with the developer, and we've finalized the wording to these two spaces.

It's not to say it couldn't be amended, but we'd have to go and talk to internal leadership about that and the developer.

Um we did talk a little bit about that when we did the walkthrough.

Um we felt pretty confident that with the SHIPO review, those spaces should be pretty well preserved by their process.

We didn't feel it was uh that it was necessary to do that within this designation effort, but we can certainly have that conversation if if you if you would like for us to do that.

Well, uh I agree that the National Park Service will definitely um protect those spaces as long as they're involved.

And the one thing that we can't control is if they're involved or not.

Uh and I'm sure that they there's every intention for them to um be involved in this project.

But if if something happens and the tax credits um are not the path forward for this project, I believe we should we should maintain some sort of uh responsibility for those spaces because like I said, they're impossible to recreate.

Yeah, so uh so Meg, I guess what would be the process to you know, sort of investigate that because that'll require more conversations, obviously, with uh uh DMD or MDC and uh and the developer.

Yeah, I'll have to talk with um our director.

They they've already gone through the process through with the MDC for securing the financing aspect of this, so we'll have to chat internally and then reach out with the developer and see if they have a willingness to do that.

Um but we you know I'm happy to do that and see where see where we're gonna be able to do.

Yeah, there may be a strategy to keep examples of that kind of thing that you know sometimes the park service allows as opposed to wholesale, you know, sort of complete care of all of it.

So yeah, we can certainly talk about that.

Okay.

Other questions?

Well, I would encourage this group to take a walk through those spaces to understand them intimately because that stonework that's in those corridors is uh impeccable.

It's and those the doors with the existing transoms, like I said, you're not gonna ever recreate that.

So and the tra the trazzo that it still exists, even if it's under carpet, is is extensive throughout the building.

So I think it's something that we really need to add to this designation.

Sure.

Um I'm happy to talk with leadership and the developer to coordinate a walkthrough in the building, which to be frank, you should probably see that anyway if you're gonna be designating it.

Um, and then we'll we can have that conversation and and see where we go with that.

Thank you.

Okay, other questions?

All right, good.

We'll look forward to uh hearing back from the staff on this.

All right, we're ready to move the to the public hearing portion of the meeting, and before doing so, let me introduce the commission members and staff and read the rules of procedure for this evening.

Uh to my right is Anson Keller, Commissioner, I'm Bill Brown, President.

Uh to my left, David Baker, Vice President, Susan Williams is our secretary.

Deesa Watson Summers down in the front is our commissioner, Michael Bivens, Commissioner, and Jeanette Silvilich, the Commissioner, and uh Kristen Wiggs, Commissioner, and Annie Lear, Commissioner.

Uh the staff with us this evening.

Meg Bush is our administrator, Chris Steinmetz is our legal counsel, Emily Jarsen is our principal architectural reviewer, Shelby Long, our senior architectural reviewer, Grace Skedecker is our preservation planner and recorder.

Margaret Molejo is our architectural reviewer, and Caroline Enamaker is our architectural reviewer.

The commission has copies of IC 367-11.1, the Marion County zoning ordinances, the historic preservation zoning ordinance, and all historic area plans, excuse me, for Marion County are on file, which will be incorporated by reference of the record of each case heard by the commission this evening.

This evening's hearing will be governed by the commission's rules of procedure, which are also incorporated in the record of this proceeding.

Anyone wanting to get a notice that a decision made by this commission has been appealed, they may fill out a notification form within five days of the decision.

The forms are available and may be obtained from the commission staff.

The commission strongly recommends against submitting new materials this evening.

Doing so may result in the applicant application, excuse me, being continued if the commission or the staff believes the material substantially alters the request or requires more review than is reasonable at a public hearing.

However, if supplemental material related to a case is being submitted this evening, please submit it to IHPC staff when you come up to testify.

The chair would also like to remind the public that expartheid contact with the commissioners, which is contact relating to a matter before the commission outside of this public hearing process is prohibited.

The order of each case this evening uh will be as follows.

Uh call the applicant uh to come forward and make a present to make their presentation, and then we'll also ask for support of that application.

Both of those steps will be allowed up to a maximum of 20 minutes.

We'll then ask for objections or remonstrations from the public.

Any and uh that'll be allowed up to an additional 20 minutes maximum.

We'll then take staff comment.

Uh we'll then ask questions from the commission, and then the applicant will have a last word or rebuttal up to a maximum of additional 10 minutes.

And then I'll ask Meg for a staff recommendation.

Before calling the first case, if anyone who is going to be speaking to any of the cases this evening, if you would stand up and be sworn in, Grace will swear you in this evening.

Please raise your right hand for me.

Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth?

Say I do.

Thank you.

All right, thank you, Grace.

All right, we have one withdrawal this evening.

Meg, do you want to take us through that one item?

Sure.

2025 COA 149, Heron Morton Place and 2025 VHP 004.

The address is 2064 North Alabama Street, also known as 251 and 253 East 21st Street.

And that request is to and so we just need to you to acknowledge the withdrawal.

And I will so acknowledge the withdrawal of the case.

All right, we'll move to expedited cases.

We have two cases this evening.

Meg, please take us through those.

2025 COA 222, Irvington.

Address is 5814 Beechwood Avenue and the applicant's Daryl Gunyan.

The request is to demolish the garage and construct a new garage.

And 2025 COA 248B, St.

Joseph.

Address is 958 North Pennsylvania Street, and the applicant is Melanie Starneri.

And the request is to replace vinyl windows with new vinyl windows.

Okay.

Anyone in the public wishing to speak to either of the expedited cases?

Anyone in the commission wishing to speak to either expedited case?

Okay, seeing none, I'll take a motion for the expedited cases as presented by staff, please.

Thanks, Michael.

Thanks, David, for the second.

Any final comments?

All those in favor, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, same sign?

Okay.

We have no applications to be heard, which will be continued, so we move to applications here which are new this evening.

The first case is 2025 COA 241, Heron Morton Place, address 1808 North New Jersey Street.

Melissa Ayanucci is the applicant.

Please come forward, Melissa, state your name and your address and present your case to us.

And I forgot to write it in halfway.

Okay, that's fine.

You can get that afterwards.

Not a problem.

Okay, Melissa Ayanucci, uh 5771 Central Avenue.

I'm presenting 1808 North New Jersey tonight.

Um when I was first brought into this project, first thing I did was reach out to Emily to talk to her about it.

This is such a unique little house.

Um I think it's probably the smallest one in here in Morton, and it sits directly on the North property line.

Um of course it's only one story, so that also adds to the complexity.

But originally this house was actually two separate houses, and they were both on 20-foot lots.

So I thought that was a really neat thing that I hadn't known before.

Um, since then the two lots have been combined.

There it's now a 40-foot wide lot, and the house to the south has been since been demolished.

So staff related that they would like to see rather than a traditional addition that would sit back from the front of the facade, something that mimicked what was originally there.

And I thought this was just a fantastic idea, so clever, um, so unique, and all credit goes to staff.

Um but I ran with that idea.

Um, in keeping the massing similar, uh, really that the differentiation is within the details.

So the the house to the south has a little bit more modern detailing, more glass, a little bit more streamlined details, um, and then they're connected by this three foot ten connection piece that's set back about nine feet from the facade of the two houses.

But those two facades are in line with each other, and they both have the porch that slightly wraps around to the front door.

So with that, I can answer any questions.

All right, thanks.

Um I'll first ask for support.

Anyone wishing to speak in support of the application?

Anyone wishing to speak in remonstrance?

Seeing none, I'll ask for a staff uh comment, and that would be Emily, please.

Yes, staff is in support of the application.

We did not put it on the expedited list, not because we weren't comfortable with everything, but we thought it was different enough that it probably did warrant a conversation.

Um staff had seen other ideas for an addition prior to this architect taking on the projects, and every single one really just overwhelmed the cottage.

Um resulted in demolition of half of the cottage.

And staff just wasn't comfortable with that approach because it is so diminutive to try to come up with something that worked.

And when we looked at the sandborns, we did realize that they were they were essentially twin cottages there at some point that had been built as income-producing properties and and used primarily as a rentals.

And so that is what kind of the approach that we recommended taking was to do an addition that looked like a separate house.

And staff is very comfortable with this.

Obviously, the massing is very sympathetic.

The setback is very sympathetic, but then it also it looks like a product of its own time.

So it's very reflective of the neighborhood, it's very reflective of the context, it doesn't overwhelm the cottage, but it also reads as something of its own time.

And staff is in recommendation of approval and can answer any questions.

All right, Emily, thank you very much.

Questions from the commission, please.

Yeah, David, go ahead.

No question, just a comment.

This is amazingly creative.

I just loved this when I looked at it.

Uh I suspect when it's all done, it will be one of those things that staff or anybody who's taking people on a tour of what are the interesting things that have been done in IHPC districts.

This not only the architecture, but the whole story behind it and the way it you know it is wonderful.

Other comments.

I uh agree with David, and and I actually have been hoping that people would buy two of these successive cottages or shotguns that exist in various neighborhoods and and do this very thing.

Um so I'm happy to see that this is uh the solution, although that would be two existing buildings tied together.

But at any rate, um the only comment that I have is that the windows that go all the way down to the the porch level, so so it's floor to ceiling windows, those struck me as a little bit out of place.

Um and obviously it's a more modern uh solution, but it's not modern enough to to warrant that kind of um uh divergence.

It they look like doors, and I'd wonder if you could bring those up a little bit to to make them look like windows from the neighborhood.

Yeah, go ahead, Melissa.

Yeah, um I'm super excited about this project.

So truthfully, I would love you know your feedback.

Um so before I answer that question, I just want to throw one more question of my own out there so I don't forget.

Um at the last minute, I added corner boards to the new house.

Um since then I've worried that it's gonna look too similar.

I thought maybe it would make it cohesive, but maybe um since then I'm like, well, maybe the corner boards need to disappear.

So that's question number two.

But to answer question number one, I really did play around with the windows a lot, and it felt to me too similar.

So that idea of trying to make sure that the two of them looked different.

Um any type of window just felt like a replicate.

Um so to me, this felt like the better of the two solutions.

Um but again I would love some feedback from all of you.

Okay.

All right, thank you.

Other questions from the commission?

Yeah, David, go on, please.

For whatever it's worth, um when I first looked at the design, I started to think about the same thing.

Um, but as I studied it further and further and looked at all the details and everything, I actually myself I grew to like the idea of the windows on that house as a making it somewhat different than the historic one.

Uh so I myself personally have no problem with it.

I think it's fine.

Um I do understand why you you might have saw that and were thinking that, yeah.

But it might be good to hear from others.

Sure.

Uh other comments.

Michael, go ahead, please.

I thought the windows looked unusual too.

Um but I see what you're saying.

I I mean you could put something underneath them or take the uh the grid off of it or something, but I think at the same time if you left it alone and I don't think it would stand out as being unusual.

I think it's more of a personal taste thing.

Um I had a question about colors.

I know more places and something where we we look at colors, but the setback that's nine feet back or so you said is that going to be painted a darker color, maybe, so it doesn't stand out or without getting into exact colors.

Sure.

Um I will tell you, we have not decided on colors.

Um conceptually, in my mind, what I was thinking was that the historic home would have more historic colors to it, and then the connector piece as well as the entire new house would be a more neutral, so that they really felt like two different houses.

Um again, kind of playing up where I can, those details between the two.

Um so that would be my thought.

And I'd love to hear back.

Yeah, I was just thinking, you know, of the palette that is eventually used that maybe the um at least on the front facade the the setback area would be a darker of the darker colors of that palette, just so it doesn't stand out as much.

So do you mind if I ask another question?

That's um so would you see them like the two different houses?

I have a hard time imagining them having two separate color palettes.

Would you agree with that?

Like so would you see the newer house as more monochromatic as well?

And then perhaps the connector piece and even darker shade.

And I realize you maybe have a lot of different things.

No comment, okay.

But uh yes, I'll definitely the connector.

Just so visually it steps back.

Sure.

Understood.

Okay.

Other comments on the commission.

Uh all from yeah, go ahead, answer, please.

I did want to push back on the window issue.

Um those they're drawn exactly like the door.

They look exactly like the door.

They look like doors.

Doors are not appropriate on that portion of the facade.

I think they need to look like windows.

Um they're they look just like the door, and they will look just like the door out there.

So I I think windows are appropriate on that facade, doors are not, and uh I think that there's plenty of ways to differentiate it.

There's I mean, there's a lot of creativity shown in this plan already.

I think we can figure out a way to make those read as windows and not doors.

Yeah, I guess uh just offer a couple comments.

I think the you know, one uh alternative would be to make the door look like a door and keep the windows like the windows, uh, as opposed to necessarily changing the windows sill uh to bring it up, you could cause that door to because it is going to be a door, uh that could start to have uh more of a relationship to the door that you have on the existing property.

I think the you know, you if I don't know if you've looked at the uh similar project in Lockerby that has two existing homes like this with the glass connector, uh you know that I think is quite successful.

We approved that.

I don't know how many years ago, but it uh that's maybe the only example I know of this scale of cottages coming together like this, and and to my to Michael's point, I think it having the piece recede.

I don't know that it needs to be like black in color, but I think if it was, you know, if you're using a particular color and just had it a darker tone of that same color, probably is the way to make that recede.

Um I do think having some differentiation between the two is valid.

And obviously you've studied the windows uh one way or the other, and I'm I'm supportive of this.

I'm I th I agree with Anson that all three should not be the same.

If one is a door, you may want to make the door feel like a little more of a door, and then if the windows stay down, then I I think that that's okay from my point of view.

You know, if you if you want to keep the door looking like it is, then's probably accurate, and we need to you know think about making the windows, you know, come up.

So I think it's I think there's a choice there, frankly, from your point of view.

Um but other than that, I think it's a handsome, you know, solution.

Uh having seen the Lockerby solution for many many years, it's highly successful and works.

And so this I think will work quite well.

It's quite unique in Harry More to have these smaller cottages that you see in uh in a couple of our other districts, but you don't see it much in Harris Morton.

So there are final comments on the commission.

Yeah, please, yeah.

The corner boards too.

Does anyone have any?

Yeah, I I'm fine without the corner boards.

Yeah, and just let the miter them over or overlap them or yeah.

I think again, just having some subtle differences, I think is a good thing so that there's a sense of it being of its time.

Thank you.

Uh-huh.

Okay.

Any final comments, Melissa?

Uh no, I do have to.

Okay.

Uh ready for staff recommendation then, Meg, please.

Staff recommends to approve a certificate of appropriateness to build an addition and detached garage and to construct a rear deck and porch and alter openings per the submitted documentation.

And subject to the 10 stipulations and one note in the staff's written report.

Okay, I'll take a motion for the staff recommendation as read, please.

Susan, thank you.

Get a second.

Okay.

Any final comments?

All those in favor of the motion, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, please name same sign.

Okay, thank you.

Good luck with your project.

Thank you.

Uh-huh.

All right.

Uh next case is 2017, COA 049, amendment dash eight.

Uh, Chatham Arch, Massachusetts Avenue, and address 901 Carrollton Avenue, Ryan Stoud is the applicant.

Is Ryan here to present this case?

Please come forward, name and address, please.

Yes, actually, Ryan Starty is with us, uh, but I will be presented by David's Shade Grabois from Epstein UI Architects.

I'll be presented uh behalf of the Hendricks group.

Okay, please go ahead.

Okay, great.

Do we have the slide presentation?

Yep.

Perfect.

Thank you.

All right.

I'll just say next slide when I'm ready.

Great.

Excellent.

So this is I'll be presenting the phase three of the bottle works.

We call it building two.

It's in the northeast corner of this site.

Currently, it's a surface parking lot, a little bit under an acre.

Next slide.

Here before you, you see the civil uh site plan.

A couple things just to note, and I'm gonna go through this fairly briefly so that we can say have as much time as we can for questions.

We maintain that plaza on the west half of the site uh building that leads up to the lobby, the office lobby.

Uh we also did have an opportunity to activate the north side of the site with a pocket park.

Uh and we also did uh place the entry to the parking off of 10th street on the north side.

That would be a right in right-only um uh circulation for the parking.

Uh next slide.

Here you can see uh the site plan.

We do uh have quite a generous amount of landscaping, trees uh and raised planters, uh both uh in that plaza on the west on the north side, and we are adding uh five trees in a great system uh along Bellafountain.

Next slide.

Here you can see the ground floor plan in gray is the public parking component, and in orange is the office component.

The office lobby is on the left-hand side or the west side of the building.

Next slide.

Here's a typical parking level, public parking level.

Next slide.

Here is a typical office level.

Next slide.

Here's uh on the very top floor, the 11th floor.

We will have a terrace that faces towards the downtown.

Next slide.

Here's uh elevation along Carrollton or um, yeah, Carrollton Avenue, and uh you can kind of see how that fits into the overall neighborhood.

Next slide.

And then here you can see a direct comparison to what was previously approved, and you can see where we are scaling the tower portion of the building down uh slightly.

Next slide.

And here's an elevation along 10th Street.

And again, that comparison, you can see that we are bringing the tower portion of the building down slightly.

Next slide.

And this is the elevation along Balfoun.

And the comparison.

And then here is the material details that we previously had uh on our building.

And if you do the next slide, you can see we're really keeping a very similar palette of materials that we had previously.

One thing to note is that we are opening up the garage to have a natural ventilation.

So we did introduce uh a screen material there.

Um here's uh uh the palette of those materials.

You can see board form concrete being used, um, various metal panels on the curtain wall systems, a one that looks uh sort of like a metal tone, uh, one that's gray, uh, and then a darker color for the fetestration.

And then you can also see the uh the intent for that mesh that I described earlier.

Uh next slide.

And then here you can see the um the comparison of the rendered.

It's a little hard to see on those TV monitors from this perspective, but um thank you.

Um but this is an aerial looking towards the south down Carrollton Avenue.

You can see our building on the left-hand side, and that's kind of a previous uh version on the left and our new version on the right.

Here's uh that kind of from the same perspective looking toward the south, but uh ground view shot uh looking across 10th Street.

And then this next perspective, we have a a couple of perspectives along fountain street.

Um and you could see in the previous version on the left, we did have a garage entry at this location.

Uh and we did relocate that to 10th street.

Uh we're a little bit concerned that headlights would be shining across the street as uh cars exit uh by relocating that that does alleviate that issue.

Next slide.

And then here's again uh look in the other direction down Belf.

So with that, oh yeah, there's I'm sorry, a couple more perspectives here.

This is a view along the north edge uh where we're really trying to activate that edge with this public park.

That park would uh have uh spots for seating.

It would also have uh a dog park.

Um next slide.

And then here you see that public par uh plaza that is on the west side of the building.

This plaza is along Carrollton Avenue and sort of leads you up to the main lobby for the office building.

So that concludes our presentation, so I could open it up to questions.

Yeah, that'd be fine.

Let me first ask if anyone is wishing to speak in support of the application.

Anyone wishing to speak in remonstrance?

Uh please come forward.

Uh state your name and address, please.

Uh Larry Jones, uh 1125 Brookside Avenue.

Uh I'm also the owner of the property at 1101 North College, where Leviathan Bakery and Sultana and that is.

Um two primary issues.

One is uh regarding this uh access for this uh development off of 10th Street.

Uh my opinion is that really should be a non-star.

Uh the one way in, one way out for the eastbound lane means that basically people will be going over to Bellefontaine and making a U-turn to get going west again on 10th.

I understand there'll probably be a signage there or something like that, but people will do still do it.

And that is an intersection that is both the uh kind of the hub for everything related to the Monon, the Cultural, the Pogrun trails.

A lot of pedestrian traffic, huge amount of bicycles, huge amount of tourists, huge amount of people unfamiliar with the area, and you know, having people doing U-turns there is never going to be a good option.

The second option then will be to come over to 10th and Dorman 10th and Mass Avenue in that intersection, which is even worse than the previous intersection.

Um I own the property there at 1125 Brookside, 1011 Mass Avenue.

We constantly see both the traffic that comes down Mass Avenue at you know it it averages 60 or 70 miles an hour until they get there to 10th, and then they're not paying any attention when they go.

And so uh having people actually probably trying to make U-turns.

And when you think about this type of development, that type of use, um, you know, you're you're talking about something that's basically gonna empty every day at normal business hours, you know, the five to six or seven when traffic on 10th Street is about the highest.

Um don't get me wrong, like I said, I showed up five or six years ago to completely support this project.

You know, I petitioned that it go higher than what was proposed.

Uh it'd be great to see if there was some sort of residential component in it.

I understand probably that would be condo and the condo absorption in downtown Indianapolis.

It's just horrible.

Never has been good, and I don't think it's ever going to improve.

And given the economics going forward, I I can see why they don't want to do anything like that.

Uh the second issue I have though is a little more uh you know, I have a little more involvement in it regarding the temporary parking lot on the north side of 10th.

Back in 2020, when we talked about this project, one of the things I brought up was a desire to see Carleton open back up and a parking lot developed on that lot.

I don't think it made it into a commitment for the development of this building, but I do think it was discussed, agreed upon.

Um there was a parking plan and a lot plan developed for it, but over the last five years nothing has happened.

And uh if you if you go down to picture three or four there, you can kind of see basically that lot up there is a swamp.

Uh I sent Emily some pictures yesterday.

Carrollton's a mess.

Um, you know, when I did a renovated 11th in college, I work with the city and IPL AES to create parking along the sub the the uh substation up there, and in very simple terms, I'm the one providing the free parking for the employees of Bottle Works.

Um if you kind of take a look at that, you can see the swamp that's up there in that parking lot.

Even the uh employees of Bottle Works don't park in it, they park out on the remnants of Carrollton, they park on 11th Street.

Um I checked on it today, somebody's still getting ticketed out there.

Uh there's still the curb cut coming off 10th, but since Carrollton didn't open, they drive up on the sidewalk up next to the substation.

Bottom line is my request is to make uh a part of the approval of this certificate or appropriateness, a commitment that that parking lot get finished.

Like I said, they have a temporary permit to operate it to December of 2026, which means nothing's gonna happen to it till 2027.

By 2027, they'll be hard at this building, they'll come back for another request because they need it for construction, construction workers.

And just frankly, I provided five years of free parking, free cleanup, free maintenance, and it's just time for it to stop.

The cost of this is a rounding error to the rest of the project.

It needs to be done as part of getting this project off the ground to basically fix and finish that area.

That's my request.

Thank you, Larry.

Any of anyone else wishing to speak in remonstrance?

Okay.

Uh seeing none ready for staff comment.

Emily, please.

Uh yeah, so before I forget, I'll just you did get uh the packet that Larry sent with photos regarding that parking lot, and then I just put a memo on the top just because I had to go back and refresh my memory.

That was from 2020 that they got approval and a variance for to have a temporary parking surface on that parking lot with a requirement to pave and landscape the that lot no later than December 31st, 2026.

Um so I suppose perhaps it could work in tandem with this development.

Um, but I just wanted to make certain that was clear that it was an entirely separate COA and COA number than the 2017 COA 049 that all the other amendments have been under with the Bottle Works project as a whole.

Um staff has recommending discussion, comment, and continuance of this application.

Um staff felt that there were probably going to be enough design discussions and comments that would warrant that it would need a continuance.

Obviously, you know, the design has changed, particularly when it comes to the garage and the approach to the garage and the heights of the garage.

Um, but also staff had brought up when this was presented the concern about the one-way in and one way out on 10th Street.

And I know they haven't that Hendrix hasn't been able to connect with DPW.

Uh DPW is she's just behind on our emails, but I did have confirmation from DPW that they have very serious concerns about that as well.

They are concerned about the potential for neighborhood cut through, illegal U-turns, um, and they have basically said they really need to return it to what was done on the master plan, Bell Fountain, Carrollton, or do a traffic study and see where that leads us, but it may very well lead us back to the same thing, which is no one way in and one way out on East 10th, and they do not want to see another median cut.

So I don't have any more comments, but I can answer any questions.

All right, Emily, uh thank you.

Uh take questions from the commission.

Susan, please.

Yes, it's uh good to see you here.

And um we really thought this was gonna be a long time coming, and it was very fortunate that Icemiller looked at bottle works and decided they wanted to live there.

Um I've got several just things that I wanted to bring up.

I don't know as part of the discussion and would like to hear what others have to say about it.

Um the first thing I want to talk about is the parking the treatment of the parking garage, and it's really difficult to understand what that's gonna look like.

And so I don't know if you could do a more detailed section, or in fact, if you know of uh of a garage here in Indianapolis or somewhere close, if you could just point us in that direction that has used that.

It just would be good to understand that a little bit better.

Um yeah, sure.

I think it does show up a little bit one of the other perspectives.

I think it's the next slide after this.

Yeah, I had a hard time with it, nonetheless.

Right.

Yeah, I saw that.

I saw that.

So in addition to that concern, I share the concern about the traffic in the parking garage, and I hope we can explore that a little bit more and maybe next time have someone from the Department of Transportation here to maybe persuade us or dissuade us or whatever it is there.

Yeah, it sounds like there'll be some conversation with DPW, so that'll that'll need to happen.

And then I'd like to talk about the glass overall.

I I like that it's not multicolored glass and it's nice and crisp looking, and I I really appreciate that.

Um I don't know exactly what's going to happen, but I would hope that there would at least be on the lower floors that um are on the 10th street side.

I guess it's hard, it's not the 10th street side, but the side you're um where you're blocking the historic building to have clear glass and be sure that there's some transparency there.

Uh probably the lobby for pedestrian viewing would be pretty good.

Um so that was on the glass.

The uh landscape plan looks terrific.

It's the pocket park is going to be a real enhancement to the neighborhood.

I'm a little bit concerned about Bell Fountain, and you may not have the room to do it, but you know, planting five trees is great, but you're right across from the cultural trail, and there's a lot of beautiful plant materials and color and so forth.

If there's a way within that limited space to get some blooming things, that would be really good.

But um, congratulations for for the rest of your vision for that piece of space.

And then the streetscape um on Carrollton, as I look at as I look at the historic buildings, which I love looking at, um, and I look at your building.

I'm not sure that you've given enough of a nod to the to the deco architecture on on your lower levels, and I'd sort of like to have you think about it at least, and maybe um have something uh creative to do, but that that's on I B28.

When I saw that, I thought, whoa, you know, they don't look like they belong together.

So that was that one.

The 10th street um streetscape, I thought was very helpful to have that in there.

I like streetscapes, and it's really helping us understand how your building uh fits in.

Um sorry, I doodled on the pages on B215.

I was going along being very happy, and then I saw uh curtain wool windows, dark bronze, and I thought, uh oh, I'm not sure that's exactly what we want to see there.

I think the the rest of the development is is so beautiful and transparent that that seemed to be almost a barrier.

So if you would look at that, maybe not everybody has the same bias I have with colored glass, but in that particular that seemed kind of dark.

Um I think that's pretty much all I've got.

Yes, thank you.

Thank you, Susan.

Other comments from the commission, please.

Yeah, and Jeanette, please.

Um the one thing that I really noticed is that that the height of the parking section keeps getting taller and taller and taller.

Your first go-around, it it meshed really well with the bottling with the Coke building right next door, and now that building seems almost dwarfed by how tall that parking structure needs to be.

Have you looked at maybe going underground with any of your parking?

Because I know trail side at the other end of the street, uh at the other end of the development, which was done several years ago, does have parking underneath.

Right.

Um, yes, we did look at it.

There was some issues with going down below ground, but um but but yeah.

Um, this this uh this version is 10 feet taller than the last version, which we thought was a little bit taller.

There's there's some ways that we feel that we might be able to bring that down a little bit, but um but yeah.

Okay, yeah, I understand.

I mean, I understand that I appreciate that you've been able to bring the entire structure uh lower, but it's just with that being so prominent and right out in front.

Um I think if it do you good to take a look at that again, and I also have a concern with the parking in and out off of 10th street.

I know how busy that can be, um, especially at rush hour coming in or out.

Um, and um like Larry said, there's a lot of pedestrians up at that corner, and that's almost an accident waiting to happen.

Thanks.

Okay, thank you, Anjanette.

Yeah, Annie, please go ahead.

Um it's it is very good to see you back, and um looking forward to having the building.

I think exploration, if it is possible to have some of the parking underneath would be great.

How much parking will there be?

I don't know if you have numbers versus like tenant, like like ice miller tenants and how much will be public parking.

Sure, yeah.

Um I I believe we do have a public parking expert here, Eric.

Why don't you yeah?

Um currently name and address, Aaron.

Aaron Hurt was civil and environmental consultants and we're civil engineer on the project.

Um in terms of the parking count, um, it is a public garage, and the space counts uh 300, 320 right now, which was a little more than um the previous proposal, but the intent is this is gonna help fuel growth and help the development overall and the future phases, so that was the thinking.

Um so there was a little more parking added.

In terms of going below ground, I know there was some concern construction-wise in terms of water table, proximity to the hotel foundations, that type of thing.

So I think that was one of the factors with the current designer, that's how we got here.

Okay, okay.

So would you be willing to reconsider or I mean at least let us know that if there's been some reconsideration and it's just off the table because of these, is that what you're saying?

Well, I think we'll take all your comments kind of regroup and then come back.

Yeah, I think that's the plan.

Okay, yeah.

Thank you for that.

And then um I have pretty substantially strong feelings.

I live about a block away from here, and I walk around it all the time and love bottle works.

Um, but I live in the neighborhood adjacent.

We have a lot of issues, just as Larry mentioned, we probably get hit as much, if not more than he does with construction traffic, people not wanting to pay that bottle works, that park in our neighborhood.

We now have permit parking, so that's gonna be more of an issue, and people are gonna get tickets, but I have very strong feelings about that parking lot across the street and would love it to be in join with this because that was the this isn't on you, like I'm nagging at you guys, but this is previous people.

So um, but it was promised that it would be taken care of, that it would be asphalt, that it would be landscaped, and all of those.

So I absolutely think it needs to be tied to this, whether it's construction overflow, whether it's employee overflow, somebody overflow, but that lot can be treated much differently, much and make it much better looking given given the amazing nature of bottle works, it just looks like an afterthought, and you've got you all have gotten away with it for a number, not you all, a number of years.

So I absolutely think that needs to be taken care of.

I'll let the others that are a little bit more expert have a little more expertise on inners and exits and things like that.

But glad to see you back and look forward to the building.

Yeah.

Okay, thanks, Annie.

Uh other comments from the commission.

David, please.

Uh two things.

One, uh I'd like to have a better feel for what it would be like to be in that space between the two buildings, between the historic building and your building.

Um I mean, it's a long narrow space.

Uh and I'm somehow I just don't feel like I know what that's gonna be like.

Um secondly, all I remember hearing about why the exit needed to be changed to 10th Street.

Uh was because you were worried about headlights coming out.

Maybe I missed something, but are there other reasons?

It's surely something more than just concerned.

Um yeah, if we could pull up the site plan and maybe I could speak to a few points on that.

Um I don't know if we can zoom in a little bit.

Um so yeah, there were several factors on the the thought behind the curb cut on 10th street.

Um was a recognition of headlights heading eastbound, and there's a residence across the street and a couple houses there, so by not having that exit east, you know, headlights are for focused north on the Hendrix lot, you know, that they own across the street.

So that was one consideration.

Um you look at uh Bellfountain and where that curb cut is, um, the stacking distance from where that curb cut would be on Bell Fountain Street, if you were to hang a left and go north, there's room for about four or five cars stacking distance.

And so people exiting the garage, there could be the potential for that, those cars to have to wait or to block southbound traffic on Bell Fountain.

So there were considerations for left turning movements coming out of the garage.

So that was one factor.

Um with the curb cut on 10th Street as you had eastbound, um, there's a lot more stacking distance there.

So from where the curb cut is to where the um traffic signal is, there's room for at least seven cars before you even get to the entrance.

So there is more stacking distance heading eastbound at that location coming out of the garage.

Um another factor we did look at traffic movements from this site to say the north side of Indianapolis or um elsewhere north of the city.

And when you put that into Google Maps and other programs, it will say the quickest way to go north is to head east on 10th Street and either go to rural or come back down and around to the improvements that Indot has done at Michigan Street.

So it's actually quicker if you want to go north to go east and then back around and hit I-65 and then go, you know, east or west or wherever you need to go.

So that was some consideration.

And then when you exit on 10th Street, you still can you know hang a right and go south on uh Bell Fountain and out.

Um so we're not so sold on the fact that there's going to be a lot of U-turns at this location when the quickest way might be to head east or to hang a right.

And we can try to provide more information on that.

We can look at that, we hear hear what you're saying.

Um to circle back on the overall development, there was a comprehensive traffic study done on the project back in 2017-2018.

At that time, it did look at proposed uses here, and actually our density is less.

So the this building has scaled back the density on this corner a little bit.

Um, but we could also revisit that.

So um we hear what you're saying, and we'll try to come back with some more uh answers for you on that.

Thank you.

That helps me just understand it.

It's definitely problematic.

Yeah, the 10th Street.

Yeah, and we did um reach out to DPW.

I know everybody's busy, and this was like a short time frame in the summer, so we we want to connect with them as well.

Yeah.

Okay, other questions from the commission.

Anson, please.

Um I just had some general questions.

Uh how does the overall square footage of the project relate to the original proposal?

Is it larger or smaller, about the same?

Yes, this is uh so it is less square footage overall.

Do you have a Paul Parker?

Do we have a number that the previous version was uh on hand website?

I don't have that information with me.

And the materiality is that it looks like core 10 steel.

I couldn't see the the notes.

Is that cortend steel or is it a replication?

It's gonna be a replication of that.

It's uh it's actually gonna be a curtain wall system, so uh, but but it's going to represent the the the quartet.

And I noticed on I think it was the north facing facade, there was a door at the seventh floor uh that seemed to indicate uh uh outdoor patio there, but I didn't see any railings or anything.

Yeah, the intention there is to have the opportunity to have an outdoor patio on that level.

Unfortunately, Ice Miller doesn't want uh a patio there for now, but uh we'd like to put doors in there for a future tent that uh so we have the opportunity to do that in the future.

Well, that brings up another interesting question.

Um this probably isn't for you as maybe more for Lance.

Um I assume that this is a long-term lease.

Uh I'm not gonna ask exactly how long, but is it 10 years or more?

Yeah.

I I just had some concern about the longevity of this and and specifically for things that you you say there where there's some differences.

If there's a door there though, um it seems like there probably should be railings or at least the indication of what the railings should be.

Yeah, the door does give us access for uh things such as window cleaning and maintenance on the roof.

Um but it's it's nice to cut those doors in their day one rather than going back in the future and having to modify a curtain wall in the future.

That was our thought.

I guess I just thought that uh if you got the railings approved now, you may not have to put them in now, but they they could be a pre-approved, so you come back.

It's a great point.

Thanks.

Because I do see them also on the what is that, the west elevation.

There's there's a few of those doors at that level.

Yeah, I think more than if it wasn't a public plaza, we need a number of doors for exiting so there's no dead end issue uh for exiting.

But yeah, uh I think planning for railings now would make sense even if we didn't put them in.

Okay, other comments from the commission?

Yeah, David, please.

Have a request.

Uh when you come back, I and this is related to something Susan brought up.

Um I'd like to have a better sense of what that uh wire mesh is actually going to look like that you're gonna use on the parking garage.

And um I'd like you to let us know if there's any place in Indianapolis that it's been used that we could actually go look at it.

Uh and or photos of some kind of a parking garage that has it on it.

So we can get a better feel for what it really looks like.

Because in the rendering, you know, that doesn't do it.

Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's hard to represent that with software, so maybe we could find some some some images for you.

Other comments that brought up a question that I had um the what is the uh code required um structure that resists the cars uh going through the wall.

Um obviously usually that's a a concrete panel.

I can't quite tell here if it's a concrete panel behind or if it's some member of the facade that's structural.

I think yeah, typically the you need to have a a barrier.

Sometimes that's done with cables in our case.

We're gonna actually have a solid barrier so that headlights won't shine out into adjacent properties.

Um that's in the concrete structure layer or the exact detailing of that uh we haven't determined 100% of it.

We we're talking about maybe having some sort of louver system that is uh bolted to the concrete structure itself.

Um or if it's a solid concrete wall, um, but we do need to get ventation through there as well.

So those details are still being worked out.

But the intent is to not allow for headlights to shine out.

Yeah, I I think with that transparency of the mesh that you presented, that's gonna actually have a pretty significant effect on the the look of the facade, and it'd be good to be able to review that here uh at some point.

Absolutely.

Sorry, I found one more.

Um this is a biggie, actually.

Um for those of us that were on the commission back when this um phase of College Avenue was changed from residential to office.

We insisted that the balconies remain to give that feel, first of all, to cut, you know, make the building more interesting, but also to give that same feel um to those uh buildings.

And so here's another example of where the we're losing more residential.

It's not a huge amount.

But as I look at um, it's on B218, and I'm looking at those balconies and and what a nice effect they have on the overall building and and a little more interest up top.

I'm wondering if we couldn't think about that a little bit and see if we can't add some of them back, whether Icemiller wants to have a cocktail on their balcony or not, or whether it's just an architectural feature, um, it might be something that would help relieve um a lot of this squareness of the building.

Now I am done.

Thank you.

Sure.

All right.

Any other comments?

I'll offer a few questions and comments if I might.

Um as you talked about the water table and sort of below, do we know what the water table is at this location?

And if not, I guess my like I guess where my where I'm leading is that in doing, and I suspect you're familiar with this.

When you are working in this urban environment, uh normally there's about 12 feet of not very good fill that is not structurally sound in most of the sites downtown.

And so I'm wondering, are you looking at even having any kind of basement as a part of this?

Or you just take looking to take the foundations through all that to then get to bearing, or what's the plan right now?

Yeah, currently there is no plan for any basement level.

There is a portion of the garage that is slightly depressed, maybe you know, a foot or two, but but but not a basement.

Well, I I would encourage you to just take a look at that because it, you know, your penetrations, you may get to a place where it's just as easy to pull all the material out and you end up with a level down there that could in fact be parking, like was described earlier.

Uh, relative to the discussion about the parking garage itself, did you ever investigate flipping the garage and having the entrance on Bell Fountain further to the to the south and just circulate the other way to solve the stacking issue that Aaron brought up and be able to sort of deal with it that way as opposed to leaving it circulate counterclockwise and just circulated clockwise?

Sure, absolutely.

Previously we did have the parking garage played uh that orientation.

Uh so yes, uh that could be done.

Uh we felt that maybe 10th Street would be a better spot.

Uh slightly more visible to the public.

Um the headlight issue that we brought up before, and we thought maybe the right it write out actually was a cleater circulation.

But but we I I we do understand your concern.

I think as you're as you're evaluating that, I suspect DPW is going to be having a lot to say about 10th Street, so you may want to try to solve it on Bell Fountain and flip the garage, and it looks like you can do that pretty easily, and so we're not telling you something you don't probably don't understand already understand what that would do, because one of the concerns that I've got is the proportion now between the garage base and sort of the the tower is equal virtually, and it would be nice if it was you know one less garage level and feeling like the proportion was a little less equal equal and have sort of an A B kind of patterning.

Uh as as you do that, if you're able to drop a level that would start to be able to allow the architecture to maybe do that a little bit better and address the bell fountain height, uh, you know, the 10-foot difference that you're talking about.

So just something to consider there.

Uh question um relative to the mesh, are you glazing that into the curtain wall?

Or do you know yet?

Yes, it would be a system that would be glazed into the curtain.

Okay.

And it looked like that system was going in front of the bumper wall like you were describing.

So I think that that will alleviate the concern maybe you were getting at that that the bumper wall is going to be behind all of that on the side.

Yeah, but that transparency, that's like 95%.

I don't think it's gonna be really well, but I it's pretty typical with garages, you know, it's not that unusual.

And you can use the cables, but it depends on all the you then see all the cars and all that stuff too.

So it's trade-offs there.

It is typical, but we typically it's concrete or we know what that is.

Right.

We don't know what that is right now.

Yeah, I think they're showing it as a concrete bumper wall behind the curtain wall, is at least how I read the rendering anyway, but you can bring that detail back to us and we can kind of understand that.

Um, you know, relative to the c the comment about the balconies, is there do you think there's an opportunity with ice miller to have some balconies with some of the I'll call them executive offices or that kind of thing up in the building, or to get back to some of the texture that was on the uh product when it was residential uh use?

Well, we did show that terrace of the top floor of the large.

Which kind of serves the outdoor feature uh I would would have to work, yeah.

Go ahead.

Yeah.

Yeah, if I may try to clarify.

Name and address, please.

Is my name is Matt Ibera.

So I'm with Hendrix uh commercial properties.

I'm the VP of architecture and design.

Um regarding the balcony issue.

I mean, I know we've gone through I I think the comment about the time frame it's taken us to come back on this one.

A lot of that has been a lot of development with Icemiller, who's now you know publicly known to be part of this project.

Sure.

And it's gone through iteration after iteration.

So although we understand the constraints and the requests about the modulation for the balconies, but just because of the current change in market and how it's been arranged and the arrangement of their needs actually, specifically balconies have not been in the latest rendition, and I doubt that they ever would, to be honest.

Okay.

Um saying that, I mean what uh Shane was mentioning about the balcony uh or about excuse me, the rooftop terrace, that sort of amenity is something we've tried to keep within the project.

We know we've proactively tried to keep that in to kind of take apart the boxiness of the building and also to try to at least keep some modulation to it.

I I do hear kind of the additional comments about the um the scale between the parking garage and the office.

I think the concerns are well noted.

Um things that have been debated and discussed, and we can review and and come back with potential solutions if we can find them.

But it all kind of does tie into a lot of constraints for this project.

So I just would like to kind of remind the committee that it is a relatively small site, it's under an acre 0.9 or I believe 0.93, if I remember correctly.

And the issue about the basement is not just the you know, the water table, which if I remember correctly is around six to eleven, twelve feet off the table, depending on this where it was at from our geotechnical investigation.

But it had to do a lot with the foundation and the proximity and the working and and how that was going to be shored up for the existing uh hotel.

Vibration, all sorts of constraints and the proximity to that and all that.

So the amount of work underground was trying to be minimized for a lot of issues.

So we did look at actually rotating the parking garage in the opposite direction, and part of the constraints on that actually and getting and not just the staging, but also having to do with if you look at that ground floor plan as is, even when we try to get basement parking down, the the aspect ratio of it really isn't consistent with it.

We then have to actually change heights of the floors, which you'll feel notice if we flip it around, we end up with a half-height at lobby, which is very problematic from a point of view of a pedestrian.

So pedestrian access, because remember, this parking lot is not you know an ice miller parking lot.

This is a parking lot for the bottom of the district and for the greater community, and it is trying to alleviate a lot of those parking constraints on the street.

It's trying to uh pull off a lot of that constraint at different times, not just peak periods.

That kind of came into the discussion of how many final numbers we are looking at.

The differentiation between I believe it was around like 180, 200 previously to now 300 to 320, and those issues, you know, of greater parking and trying to take that pressure off of it, knowing that it is a less dense proposal than before based on those previous traffic studies.

And as well as we've gone through iterations of operational discussions having to do with the operator for the parking and using you know uh camera video recognition for software and the actually the entry-exit time for per vehicle is down to about four seconds on average, four point something seconds.

So stacking times are basically eliminated unless there are errors, which in that case with the with turnstiles, which in that case turnstiles can be all the way open and dealt with just photo recognition of license plates.

So all those constraints are kind of uh settling in that project that way.

And we do understand there are a lot of um you know fine-tuning we can do and discussing about the showing the section of the curtain wall at the parking garage, I think is a valid, you know, drawing that we can we can provide for the for further understanding of how that works, the way the system works because it is multi-layered in order to try to stop those uh two open views because nobody really likes to see parking all the time.

So that layered system is actually adding on to the perspectival like capabilities of the building enclosure, which I think you can start to see at.

And Shane did mention it's difficult to render out always the realistic uh materiality of it.

But it it does show that you can't really see into the parking garage to an extent, which is and enabling us to have that landscape and the plaza more attached to the bottle works district and focus on the other surroundings less than the parking garage itself.

Okay, well, thank you.

I I guess I would just offer that if DPW comes back and says you're not doing an entrance on 10th Street, you're going to need to have a solution.

Yes, correct.

We understand that.

And that's why we've been reaching out to them, I would say uh immensely without response lately.

So we're just waiting to have those conversations.

So we can make sure that all those issues are dealt with ahead of time and make sure that all that provisioning is done.

Because of course, those are the constraints we have to work on.

Sure.

Yeah, understand.

I I think you know that obviously the comments are offered and trying to help help you get through the process here as well.

So please take them uh back and you know talk through them and so forth and see what the opportunities are.

Very much appreciated, thank you.

And I think there's a lot of good comments for it.

So yeah, Annie, please.

Um, just one quick additional comment.

Um, it kind of goes back to what Angeli said is having some part, and I know there's constraints and all these things that you're speaking of, and that these guys have brought up.

Is if there could be even though it's a standalone building and it's going to be a really great building, is to have some kind of nod to the bottle works part because you're so close, whether that's through the parking grow, like the base part.

I don't know what that would look like.

I don't really have any good suggestions.

I just think there could be just a little bit more of a nod to the existing building because the building is so great.

I mean, obviously doesn't need to look alike, there's no point in that.

But if there's just a little bit more of a nod.

Yeah, absolutely well noted.

Thank you.

Okay.

Any final questions?

Comments from the commission.

Any final comments from the applicant?

Okay.

All right.

I'll take a uh I assume Meg, we're just moving to a continuance, so I'll take a motion for continuance until the September 4th.

Fourth.

Third, sorry.

Third, September 3rd.

Is that work for the applicant?

Okay.

All right.

Uh to the September 3rd IHBC meeting.

Susan, thank you.

Get a second, please.

And Jeanette, thank you.

Any final comments?

All those in favor of the continuance, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Any opposed?

Same sign.

Okay, thank you.

Look forward to seeing you next month.

Thank you.

All right.

Uh next case, we have a preliminary review this evening.

Uh case is 2025 COA 256 Fountain Square, uh, address 1015 Virginia Avenue, uh, Scott Perkins, uh, to present the case.

Scott, please uh name and address.

Good evening, Commissioner Scott Perkins with Black Line 1043 Virginia Avenue, Studio 208, Indianapolis.

Uh, we've been engaged to design a 26-room boutique hotel on the currently vacant and underutilized site at 1015, excuse me, 1015 Virginia Avenue.

That was the site that was uh kind of most recently the wildwood market in the former gas station structure that's that's currently on that site.

As noted in staff report, Fount Square plan notes that the structure is non-contributing and would be removed as part of this proposed project.

Um the site is split with part of this site within the IHPC boundary and part not within the boundary.

Um the current zoning is MU2, which doesn't permit a hotel use.

However, in reading that, um, we really feel pretty strongly that a hotel use is appropriate for this site given the neighborhood orientation of the M2 and the concept of the the hotel being proposed.

So we'll be pursuing either a zoning change or variances accordingly, depending on kind of what what what route we choose here.

Um we've already had several meetings with neighborhood groups where the hotel concept and design that you'll see have been generally well received, and we anticipate more interaction as we move towards a formal application.

So with that, I'm gonna ask Lily Von Dalen, our lead designer on the project to kind of walk you through the kind of design and logic and we'll uh go from there.

All right, thanks, Scott.

Thank you.

Please come forward name and address, Lily.

Good evening.

My name is Lily Von Dalen, and I'm located in Black Line's office at 1043 Virginia Avenue, Studio 208, um, Indianapolis, Indiana.

I'm a designer with Black Line and I've been working on this project.

Um I just want to thank you all for your time this evening, and I really do look forward to all of your feedback as we start to present this design um in this preliminary review.

And I'll just tell you when to go to the next one.

Okay, so if you could go back up a little bit to the diagram.

Um so we just wanted to start out with this diagram to show that we're committed to the Fountain Square neighborhood in the community that lives and grows here.

We've worked on quite a few IHPC projects in Fountain Square over the years, and we hope to keep doing work in this area that continues to engage but also uplift the people living, working, and visiting here.

And the pink area at the top left portion of the diagram, which is a little bit small, that's the 1015 Virginia Avenue site that we'll be discussing the design of today.

This is the overall site diagram.

The main purpose of this is to indicate where we're within the IHPC district boundary and then where we're outside of it.

So the majority of the building, that pink filled, that's the part of the building that's within IHPC district boundary, and then the back of house and public and parking lot on the west portion of the site is outside of the boundary.

To give a general overview, the building is about 13,500 square feet, and we're proposing a 26-room boutique hotel with a two-story volume lobby and what might be a potential retail space along Virginia Avenue.

And we're also proposing 25 parking spots and a lot on the west portion of the site, and then four parallel spots along Buchanan.

We'll dive into more of the floor plan and building footprint design considerations after the next few slides.

But this slide just includes several images of our surrounding context.

Fountain Square, as we all know, is a very vibrant and unique community with just as unique architectural fabric, and so we wanted to really pay attention to what's existing and what little details we can tie into our design to add to what's there and to not overpower it.

We obviously don't want to replicate anything that's historic, but we do want to pay attention to what's there.

And so again, with the next slide, we've dialed in on a few architectural details for inspiration, the two being masonry brick detailing and arches.

The facade design implements the arch to become more of a modern vision of the context across the street, but to also start softening openings at balconies, doors, and windows.

We've noticed that the majority of adjacent buildings are clad in brick, so that will be the main material we'll be implementing for this design with accents of fiber cement.

Again, a lot of the buildings around or on Virginia Avenue are that historic red brick, so we want to tie that in with that fiber cement color, and we'll introduce that as like a red dark rose color, which you'll see in the next slide.

And as a gesture back to that original gas station building, we've looked at including the blue color from those porcelain tiles at the interior color palette.

So in the next slide, we're looking at our exterior material color palette.

So again, using masonry, but here we're thinking about how can we add contrast along Virginia Avenue with our bricks.

So introducing a white or a lighter brick to do so, and then introducing again that red color as our nod back to that existing brick with our fiber cement material.

We're also looking to introduce a light, warmer wood-look metal panel again to warm up the facade, but to also add some differentiation at our circulation routes to really know where public space is versus private space.

And then that bottom row of colors, those are just our you know, first look at an interior color palette, but something that feels integrated with the exterior design.

And as we move forward, we can provide physical material samples for you guys to review.

So we'll move on to the first floor plan.

We can start to see all of the hotel rooms and the spaces, and the main objective with the building form was to focus on appropriately addressing Virginia Avenue and the cultural trail.

So we wanted people to feel pulled in off of the cultural trail again into the hotel, but also into what we're calling our little plaza and maybe that potential retail space at the southeast corner.

We want this to feel vibrant and also really offer another experience to the community right on the trail.

We want this to be inviting for the people living here, but also for the hotel guests coming to stay at this hotel.

Another big focus was balancing how the design addresses the public access, but then obviously the privacy needed for people and guests staying at the hotel.

And it was also important to provide outdoor spaces for as many of the hotel rooms as possible.

To address the cultural trail, we've situated the building a little bit closer to the property line along Virginia, but then we start to carve out chunks of the building to provide a little bit more relief at the pedestrian level.

And that main entry, which you can see kind of split like the first V cut out of the building form, that's our first reveal, and then the plaza at that triangular plaza would be our second reveal.

The main entry reveal that leads people into that two-story volume, that lobby potential retail space, but then also hotel guests can continue through what we're calling a threshold into you know where the first floor guest rooms are located in that exterior circulation.

On the first floor, there are 13 rooms.

There's that two-story lobby, maybe potential retail space, and then there's a back of house portion of the hotel, which is you know needed for your day-to-day maintenance and cleaning services.

As we move on to the second level, um there are also 13 rooms on this level, as well as a mezzanine, which again services the lobby and potential retail space below.

At the second level, you'll also notice a roof terrace, and that will overlook Virginia Avenue.

We just think this would be again a really nice introduction to the neighborhood.

There aren't a lot of experiences like the right like this right now.

There is the rooftop above the theater building, but we just want to provide something similar and new here.

Um, and the corridor here, the circulation to each of the rooms just stacks from what's below, but this is enclosed fully in the second level.

So now we'll start to look at our exterior views.

This is that main view.

You can start to see the arches that we discussed at the beginning of the presentation, how they start to frame openings specifically at the balconies on the right portion of the building to create what we've been calling a primary and secondary facade.

So that primary facade being that lighter white brick facade, and then you can start to see that red, darker rose-colored fiber cement accent peeking through.

This just creates more depth and character to the elevations, and we just think it's a nice little nod to what's existing there.

You can also start to visualize all of those uh cutouts, those reveals at the main entry and the angled plaza along Virginia Avenue.

The main entry reveal above that, you'll see that second level kind of terrace outdoor space.

You can also see the two-story lobby or potential retail space on the left.

And so that will be, you know, there will be a lot of glazing there.

Want it to be a really indoor, outdoor, um, flexible space for that.

And also just so it nicely addresses that triangular plaza and connection.

And then we've wanted to maintain what might feel like a more traditional pattern for our opening, so our windows, those arches, that detailing, just to again have a little bit of detail pulled from what's across the street.

And so the next slide is just the same view, but in the evening.

We just wanted to include this to show that we envision this space as a very ambient, you know, well-lit building, just to also make sure that those facades you can see, you know, how the detailing fits in with the context, all of the engagement there, but also to create a safe uh pedestrian environment for the people that are walking by, but then also people staying in the hotel.

So now I have quite a few views, but we're just gonna move through them kind of quickly.

So this is that two-story volume, and you can see that plaza, which imagine a lot of outdoor seating depending on what goes out there, just providing a nice space right on the cultural trail for people to hang out on.

And as we keep flipping through, this is the northeast corner of the building.

We can start to see the parking on Viechanon.

It's a little bit difficult to see here, but you can see the brick wrapping the corner and transitioning to that red fiber cement, and then we bookend it again at the parking lot facade.

And so this is that parking lot facade.

And while this is not within the IHPC district, we did just want to make sure that it is cohesive with the rest of the building design.

Um, and then that right side of the building, the single story portion, that's that back of house, and that will just be treated with a fiber cement panel.

And so now we're just jumping back to the main entry reveal where you can enter the lobby or potential retail space on the left, but then you could also continue through what we've been calling the threshold to the more private part of the hotel, so the guest rooms on the first floor with the thresholds.

We wanted it to feel, you know, or figure out a way for to close it off to close off the private spaces, but we didn't want it to feel too exclusive on the cultural trail side.

Um, so again, that recess in the building helps to create a more concealed private entry for guests.

And then this is that view to that threshold if you are walking in.

And then the next slides are that interior courtyard.

Um, we'll kind of we'll flip through these quickly, but I do want to note that architecturally it's a different vibe than the street-facing exterior.

We're introducing more of that red color to bring a moodier feel in here.

Um, but you can see the exterior circulation of the rooms, and you can also see that light wood material applied at the soffits, and that again starts to differentiate where you know travel is in those public versus private spaces.

Towards the end of the presentation, here it is.

This is the second floor terrace overlooking Virginia Avenue.

You can see the second floor mezzanine kind of in the distance and how that connects with the terrace.

And again, we just believe this would be a really fun place to hang out at night, especially being able to look over, you know, down to your left, well, our left right now to the cultural trail, Virginia Avenue, just everything going on uh going on in Fountain Square, especially on the weekends.

And then we've just included some exterior elevations for you to again help visualize where we're switching between materials, where we're cutting our voids, um, and just to give a final vision architecturally.

And then to resolve our presentation, we just have more of the basic information about room square footage and overall building square footage and stuff like that.

Um, but that's pretty much our you know early design presentation, and uh, we look forward to all of your feedback and thank you so much for your time.

Okay, thank you.

Does that conclude your presentation?

Scott.

Okay.

All right.

Uh with it being a preliminary review, we'll just go from commissioner to commissioner and offer comment, and then uh they can take that away.

It's not really set up for a public input.

Uh, but we will uh we'll just let the commissioners offer their comments.

So I'm gonna start with Kristen and let her begin, and then we'll just kind of move around the commission.

So please thank you for your presentation.

Um I definitely think it's very interesting just as a non-architectural experienced person.

Um I can see people walking by that area all the time when I'm down there myself and think that they would um enjoy to spend time there in an area that's completely not used at all right now.

Um I like the how it is a little bit inviting to the cultural trail in addition to feeling secluded for your guests, um, and would like to see where it goes from here.

All right, thank you.

And Jeanette, please.

Um I appreciate I really do like the design.

Um I think it meshes well with the Fountain Square area.

You've pulled in elements um of the of different historic designs, but you're also letting it kind of stand on its own as a modern, more of a modern piece.

Um the one thing that I did notice is that I don't see a south elevation in your packet.

So just next time if you could kind of give us all the elevations.

Okay, thanks, Anne Jeanette.

Michael I think there's a case to be made for the demolition of the gas station given the current development of the area.

I don't really have too much of a problem with that.

I think the materiality I'd like to see more masonry uh in my hotels when I'm staying in them, especially when they're this close to the street.

Um one concern I had was the um the hotel rooms, the guest rooms facing Virginia Avenue on the ground level.

Have these been um vetted by a hotel operator that that I'm just skeptical that uh people would want to stay in those given the street noise.

Yeah, so uh the owner of this project uh lives in California, he spends about a week here per month.

He's got several properties here in in Indianapolis.

When he stays here, he stays in in the Fountain Square neighborhood, so he's he's gotten very familiar with it.

So we he's yeah, kind of fully aware of that.

The the neighbors that we've talked with have also brought up some kind of kind of concerns about the street level interface of those rooms, and so that's that's something we'll continue to talk about.

If it turns out that that doesn't work out well with the operator, then I'd be a uh a proponent of retail or some kind of commercial.

Yep, understood.

Okay, Susan, please.

Yes, this commission pack made me so happy because with the Heron Morton project that was unique and not like the stuff we see all the time, and this is another example of that.

I think this is very creative, and I think it will fit well in that part of uh Virginia Avenue where you're gonna be, and I think it's gonna be um something that people comment on and really appreciate seeing.

The only feedback that I would give, because I really like this, is that there are a couple of spaces outside that are sort of crying for public art, and I don't know if that's part of the budget or can be part of the budget, or you can work with the neighborhood association, who knows?

But um, I think that would add a nice um a nice feature for the cultural trail where there's public art here and there, and um so I would just encourage you to give that some thought, and those are my comments.

Thank you, Susan.

Disa.

Lisa, do you have any comments?

Okay, all right.

Annie.

Uh the only thing I would say is kind of in agreement with Susan.

I do think there's an opportunity for um some art, especially as it pertains kind of that cultural trail, it would be a really good opportunity.

I don't know if it would be like working with the arts council or things like that to kind of come up with something that's cohesive.

Um I really like the kind of clever ability to use arches like above, because that's obviously one that's one thing I think about Fountain Square.

There's there is a lot of arched windows and things like that.

So I like I like it.

I like the design.

Thank you.

David, please.

I also very much like this this project.

It's uh kind of a quirky odd lot location, and we've had kind of an interesting history with it.

Um I was glad that Mike mentioned the gas station.

We don't want to just forget it completely.

Uh I have a little bit of a soft spot in my heart for that uh little gas station.

Um but for this era and the style and all that.

But having said that, I have no I knew it was gonna go one of these days.

And uh we did we do recognize it in the plan designated as uh non-contributing, and uh I think you have a real every reason to replace it.

It was something that's better.

Um the only thing I first thought about was the white brick.

I I really like it on the project.

But I just sort of was thinking, how is that fitting into the neighborhood?

Um so when you come back, you might just make me a little more comfortable with that.

I don't think it's gonna take much because I like it on the project.

Um but I just like kind of understand a little better what that's gonna look like uh on that corner.

Perhaps even uh some kind of a uh elevation or uh perspective that shows it in the street with more stuff around it.

Okay, okay.

I I a couple a couple things I'll just uh respond to quickly.

We we we did look at multiple plan options to keep the gas station structure, but given its location on the site, the fact that it's not parallel to Virginia Avenue, it's not oriented north-south.

It really presents complexities in terms of coming up with a uh uh a workable building plan.

Um we were trying to provide some parking on site, knowing that that would be desirable.

We put that parking where it makes the most sense in the most rectangular site that's furthest from Virginia Avenue.

So we we did we did look at options for that.

We just couldn't we couldn't get one that made sense to to retain that structure.

So and and with regards to the brick, we'll we'll look at samples, we'll bring back actual samples as we get further in our and I'm not suggesting that it needs to be any different.

Um I just like to be a little tiny bit more comfortable with it.

Sure.

All right, Anson, please.

Thanks, Bill.

Um first I want to say uh I appreciate that the developer chose a local firm that has a stake in the neighborhood.

And I appreciate the job that you all have done in studying this, and I think that the design that you presented here is really great.

And I I think that everything about it uh is appropriate, and um I think that I would be in favor of this design.

I think I do uh like David, I went back and looked at the the Fountain Square plan.

Um the thing that stuck in my head though wasn't the fact that it was a non-contributing building as identified in the plan, but that it was only 30 years old when the plan was written, and that the plan actually says in it as well that it's a notebook plan and should be continuously updated.

And so at that this point, that building is 70 years old.

There's been a gas station on that site for a hundred years, uh starting in the 20s.

Um so I think we dismissed too quickly that era, uh, especially when this was a fleeting moment in American history where these gas stations popped up all around the United States.

They were um these icebox style uh in the um ceramic uh porcelain enameled steel.

Um the thing that a lot of people don't realize is that these were influenced by uh local uh designer named Walter Teague.

He was the first to design a gas station like this.

They he designed them for Texaco, and these are all sort of matriculated from that original design.

And I think that's a big influence that we are uh uh uh about to lose here, not just in Indiana, but across the nation.

There's not any examples of these uh left in Indiana that are unmolested, especially as unmested as this one is.

Um I'd say that uh you can even see the yellow from the Texaco stripe on the back side of the building.

They paint over that part.

It's still there.

So you can tell that this was a uh sorry, Sinoco.

This is a Sinoco station.

And I just think that um we're a little too quick to to to dismiss this mid-century design, um, especially with the uniqueness of material and the fact that that material is so expensive now that it's never gonna be used again.

Um I think this particular moment in time is something that we need to start recognizing and should be recognizing the Fountain Square Plan now as they prescribed it to be.

Um so I'm a little apprehensive that we're erasing an entire period of history.

This was right before the interstates cut through downtowns, these were smaller gas stations meant to be local um places where and they also were meant to encourage people to have the confidence to travel across the United States because they knew that they could find one of these stations no matter where they went.

So I just think that we need to take a little bit more time, and I think that this needs to be a protected building.

I know that that m offers a huge challenge to you guys, but um you also have chosen a little bit smaller scale, and I think if you went up a little bit, you don't have to go up far, you can go up one story, regain your uh square footage that you've lost by uh maintaining the gas station, still not have to invest in an elevator and still make sure that this uh type of building is um not erased from the historic landscape in Indianapolis.

I do just want to say that we did as a body recognize the mid-century gas station on Michigan Street, these historic significance of just the triangular canopy.

And I think that this is just as important as that building.

That's it.

Okay, thanks, Hanson.

Uh I'll just offer my comments.

I I too am very pleased with the design.

I think it's quite handsome.

I think you've guys done a wonderful job there and should be commended for that.

I would suggest that maybe with the the likely the longevity of this building that you think about something a little more permanent than the uh than the panel system that the the fiber cement, you know, whether you're getting to a trespan or something that has a little more longevity to it, or a metal panel, or uh just you know, with this kind of use, it's probably here for quite a while.

And even even if it's reused as a building in time or whatever, uh just think about that uh material because it just has a tendency as you well know it weathers differently and those kinds of things.

Um, I know you've got one sign on the building right now, but I suspect that won't be enough.

And so just you think about how signage is gonna find its way, whether that's uh you know, blade sign or whatever it is along Virginia Avenue, people are gonna want to be able to find the place and all that.

The signage you have right now is just sort of visible from one direction and it's very much a place for sure at this point.

And we understand that.

So and that usually is a separate submittal, but just think about where that goes because that'll have an impact on this scale of a building.

Um did want to ask, is the is the reception part of the retail space as you check in, or how how are you checking in here?

Yeah, so at this point the concept, it's big it's basically an online check-in concept.

So similar to an Airbnb check-in in terms of you make your reservation online, you you can't.

And you just come to the road, you come in, you get you get access, and and you walk in.

We we've asked the owner to kind of because there's been so many questions in the neighborhood meetings, we've asked the owner to kind of come up with an operational plan that addresses those processes.

He does have another hotel property, so he he he knows he's got it figured out.

This is not his first first property.

So we'll we hope to have uh better explanation of those when we when we talk about it.

Yeah, because you know, obviously the technology doesn't always work, and you probably need somebody to be able to sort of help with that and so forth.

So just to be be mindful of that.

Certainly uh I think a you know one of the things that would probably help is a streetscape.

You know, normally we require that as a part of the as a part of submissions.

So you think about in including that that might get to what David was you know speaking about relative to how this relates.

Uh obviously seeing your materials and so forth will be helpful for sure.

So those are those are my comments.

I think it's a it's a wonderful project.

You know, you to Anson's point, you know, one of the things that has been done in the past relative to buildings that are you know sort of going away is whether there's an opportunity to document the building, whether that's at a HABS level or not, but just a way to sort of you know, sort of memorialize that.

There's also an opportunity maybe to use photography within the the you know guest rooms themselves using not everything being a gas station, but you know, you get the idea that that could you know sort of tell a bit of a story of the site, and that's you know kind of a nice way to do that as well.

So just think about you know different ways to deal with that.

Uh and then obviously to Anson's point, we are trying to update our plans and got a whole strategy there.

So we are trying to move this forward, you know, relative to all of the districts, because we know that a number of these plans are uh quite old at this point.

So as a commission, we are trying to address that for sure.

So I think those are those are our comments, uh Scott, so you can take those away.

And when do you want to plan on coming back next month?

Or we'll need to evaluate with the owner uh timing.

So um we've got like I said, we've met with a few neighborhood groups, we've got a couple more that we want to be sure we meet with before we do our final application.

So you'll just get back to staff when you want to.

Yes, sir.

Okay, all right.

Thank you very much.

Thank you all.

All right, we'll call the uh the last case, uh moving into the applications to be heard, work started without approval.

Uh we have 2024 COA 188B would replace uh 958 would replace Middle Drive Oli Khan.

And Ollie is a fixture here, so please come forward, state your name and address and present your case.

My name is Ali Khan, and the address is 958 would replace Middle Drive.

Uh dear member of the Commission, good afternoon and thank you for your time and consideration.

Uh I appreciate the staff expertise and diligence for this project.

We have been working for the last uh five years.

And uh while we occasionally differ on interpretation, I have a great respect for uh the uh preservation uh mission and the professional standards which guide the commission.

Having said that, today I am asking the commission to consider grind granting me waiver from the certain recommendations in the staff report uh relating to part two of this project.

Um and if you remember a few meetings before, the the case was divided in part one and part two.

Part one was the front of the house, and part two was mostly sites and the back.

So it was not so visible.

So I am requesting the waiver for certain recommendations, and the reason for that is that extremely limited visibility.

Uh the street in front of this house is north and south, and these sites are east and west and in the back.

And the back there is just one alley, and before that, between the alley and the house, there is uh garage.

So the visibility of these issues are very, very limited.

Another thing is that the recommendations, even if we implement the improvements will be very marginal.

But the cost involved and the burden involved is very significant.

Um, third thing for the reason I'm requesting is that substanti substantial improvement has been made.

I I'm not sure if you see the previous pictures of this house.

Uh this was being totally uh demolished in the sense by neglect.

The foundation was uh broken, the one side south side wall was totally collapsed and there was no wall there.

Uh there are big holes.

You could break the siding with your own bare hands.

So all that was done.

Uh besides that, we completed the first uh the front of the house, and and a a neglected and and kind of a nuisance type building was converted into uh a nice contributing feature uh of the neighborhood here.

Now I will start mentioning the five different areas where we disagree with the staff, and I will mention them in the order of priority.

So the one area is half-cove sidings on the sides of the building.

We already did the front, but the side of the building, and I respectfully request the approval to retain this siding as installed in for the following reasons.

Minimum public impact.

And you can say scarcely visible from the street, and replacing would produce only marginal aesthetic improvement and disproportionate to the required cost, time, and the waste.

Tearing it down, the thing which has already been done, and then putting it back to me sounds like against this split of preservation.

Second thing, which is very important, authentic material.

If you see contrary to the characterization of the staff report, the siding is not an imitation or a fall.

It is an authentic white cedar wood material which is bought from Chelsum Lumber Company locally, and to add credibility, I have added the what you call the receipts of the purchase, and those are like photo number four and five, where you can see when these material was bought and you know delivered to the site.

So the material is authentic, it's not imitation, it's not a fall.

Respectful reproduction.

The shape and size of the existing cove is exactly the original cove.

What we did was the shingles were covered by asphalt, you know, asphalt roofing material.

And that was for more than 50 years, going by the condition of that spot.

We pulled out some shingles, and all of them were different, but we measured that they were five inch wide, they were this much exposure, we averaged it and meticulously made our shingles accordingly.

So exact uh representation, respectful representation was presented.

And if you see photo number one, two, and three.

Uh I'm not sure if you have them.

I had sent through my supplemental material, and it is showing the siding in the neighborhood.

I'm not sure.

Do we have those slides?

The that was in the data.

Is what you're referring to.

They're in their data packets that they received.

Yeah, we receive those.

Oh, okay.

So if you can see photo number one, there is a siding next door to my house.

Look at the exposures, the material.

It may not be even wood, but but that's a different uh second one.

Is photo number two, where you can see a combination and some deterioration of the material.

Now the shake shingle which they show is different than the shake shingle, which was originally on our building.

So third one is you can see all kinds of uh so the point I'm making here is that there is no single definitive uh profile that defines the district character on this.

So there is a little bit uh latitude uh and and variation within the neighborhood.

Next thing is precedent and fairness.

Several nearby properties retain shingles visibly worse condition to require removal and reinstallation while neighboring states remains the same, raises concern of consistency and equitable application to the standards, constructive alternative.

I I understand the concerns from the staff, and here is what I have a constructive uh suggestion, and you will see the photo here where I had a sample of notches made.

Uh photo number six and photo number seven.

Photo number seven is as we are existing.

Photo six is where we went and made the notches.

As I said, these shingles are exactly replica of the original.

Only difference is that ours is now looking like a straight board, but if I made notches in it, it will be exactly looking like individual shingles.

As a matter of fact, all shingles are made from the board, they are cut, and that's what we will actually do by doing this.

So those are my reasons for exempting me from undoing these shingles and putting it back a new one with with very minimal uh improvement.

Now I move to the second one, shake shingle siding, which you can see the triangle top there, and I agree that the exposure is a little bit larger than what it was before.

But you can see that it is has a limited visibility because if you are looking at from the property right where standing, you will see it.

But if you are seeing it from the road, it may be limited.

Where you won't be see, you'll only see the side of it.

Now improvement over prior condition.

The previous owner had a straight uh lines of those shingles.

We made a good faith effort and made them uh circular.

So an improvement has been made over the previous uh pattern and reasonably consistent.

Uh if you say that incremental difference in exposure does not substantially diminish the building's contribution to the district.

So based on those three reasons, visibility is low, improvement has already been made over what I found in the property I purchased, and the consistency is there, I would say that this could be allowed to stay as it is.

Now the third point which I would like to make, third area of disagreement is downsizing the door opening, south side facing east.

So there is a door which was standard size and it was already there, and before buying the door, which we installed it, we had all the doors and window sizes approved by the staff.

That was a prior approval sought and approved.

Now, even before buying this doors, I took pictures and sent to the staff and said, can I buy this door?

Only after this door was installed, it done on us.

So we did not change the opening by ourselves.

The opening was already there.

If you look at the old pictures, you will see it was the same opening.

So it was a pre-existing condition, and only after the door was placed, we found out that this was a previously at some point may have altered.

We did not alter this rough opening ourselves.

So that was a pre-existing condition.

And last thing is minimal impact.

There's no door on this side.

This is the only door.

There are different types of windows on this side.

So it's not like it's going to stand out.

And you cannot see this door and the door in the front at the same time.

The visibility is not there, so you cannot compare.

And also all the doors and throughout the house, north, west, and south, are same size.

So there is a harmony.

So requiring to change this door to my mind was not necessary.

Now the next fourth area where I disagree is the door on the north side, and it is facing east.

But you can see that door.

I have included a picture there.

And I took the picture from the north east corner.

You can see the fence dividing my property and the neighbor's property.

I took the picture from there.

And you can see you can see no door over there.

I'm talking about photo number eight.

So visibility is obstructed by the staircase in front of the door, and all the door, you know, you you cannot see door unless you step on the neighbor's property or my property to go and take the picture.

So that is the reason for me to say that virtually no visibility.

And that door is not a new door.

What we did was this door was installed on the south side door, which we were talking about before.

And since it was more visible, we took this door and put it on the north side.

So it's not something which we added to the building.

And I think it has minimal impact if we change the door.

One reason is that this door is very simple in its style, and it does not predate the style of the building.

So it truly the size is consistent with the it does not inappropriately evoke an era, earlier era, or distract from the character of the building.

So those are the four uh areas where I disagree.

And last and only thing which I have requested to be exempted is to be uh present coming every month and not to be become a fixture here.

Um because I have proven that in I'm keen to get this project uh completed as quickly as possible.

We did that ahead of time.

So given that I would say that I already have achieved significant improvement, consistently reported progress, and proactively disclosed issues.

Uh staff had not uh you know this that the siding is different, like the the worth was more that was voluntarily uh disclosed by me.

So we wanted disp uh, you know, trans transparency and good faith.

So given that those are in the end closing, I would say that what I'm suggesting is accept all the other uh recommendations of the uh commission uh the staff except these five areas and I think this will be a balanced approach, it will honor the district historic director, avoid unnecessary waste and hardship, uh priests property consistently across and recognizes the scale of improvement which we have already made.

So those are my reasons, and uh I thank you for your consideration, and I'll be happy to answer any question if you have.

All right, thank you.

Ali I'll ask for anyone wishing to speak in support of the application, anyone wishing to speak in remonstrance to the application.

If not, I'll ask for staff comment.

Shelby, please.

Staff is recogn recommending approval for a certificate of authorization based on insubstantial effect for all of the work except for the following items.

That is replacing the north elevation east facing door, downsizing, and then the consecutive replacement of the south elevation, east facing door, and the installation of the faux half-cove shingle boards and the non-matching shake siding.

And for clarification, staff does understand the boards, the half-cove boards are wood.

By faux, we mean that they are not true shingles, they're one solid piece.

Um, we do not believe that these elements qualify for certificate of authorization.

Both doors are visible from the right-of-way.

Um, the door installed on the north elevation is a craftsman style door, which is stylistically incompatible with the Victorian structure, and the south side door as installed is smaller than the historic opening, which this change in size was not permitted by the staff approval.

Um both openings um uh excuse me, the per the plan openings are supposed to match, um, they are not supposed to be altered in size, as well as they should be compatible.

The new door should be compatible with the style of the structure.

Um regarding the siding, it is inappropriate to alter dimensions and profile as well to as well as to use um faux materials.

Additionally, those faux shingle boards have been installed haphazardly, which exacerbates the negative impact.

Um per the plan, siding should match what is being replaced, and there aren't any exemptions in the plan as far as visibility or side structure.

Um staff does want to recognize that this building is in much better condition than when it was purchased by the current owner.

However, we don't find this to be grounds to allow an appropriate work.

We believe that only requiring the front facade being corrected is precedent setting for future cases in the district.

Um historic details such as reveals, door heights and styles, etc.

are impactful on the integrity of the structure as well as the unique character defining elements which make this building special.

And so therefore we are recommending that the commission require these elements be corrected and our recommendations we have included sign-offs for the new materials as well as a deadline of January 7th, that's the commission hearing that month in 2026 for that correction work to be completed, as well as we have recommended monthly checkups as we did on the front facade as well.

Um and other than that, I can answer any questions.

All right, Shelby, thank you.

Questions from the Commission.

David, go ahead.

Okay, so there's I find myself going around my brain going around in circles because there's six as I see specific issues.

So I'm just going to pick one and focus on it for the moment.

And that's the uh what's called the north side east facing door.

Um Shelby, did I understand you to say that this was made smaller than what was there originally, or was that another door?

Was that the other door?

Technically, both doors were downsized as part of this work.

Um downsized in what way?

Shortened.

Okay.

And that's just based on the historic trim that was there prior to the new work taking place.

Um I will say this is one element that I'm probably willing to compromise somewhat on.

Um I went out there today before the meeting, and I spent some time.

I got out of my car, I walked around, I trespassed on your lawn.

And uh I put together my own pictures and stuff, and so that I could understand each of these six issues as separate issues.

Uh this particular one today, if the the photo shows it a cream color, but today he has painted it a as of today.

He's painted that a color very similar to the other doors.

And as a dark door, it it really shows up even less.

It really doesn't.

This this one really is pretty obscure because of that added staircase that's there.

It's also on, it's not on the main body of the bot of the of the house.

So I guess I personally see it as a little bit different.

The style of the door, it isn't what I would pick.

Um it was on the house before.

I don't know.

I've never dealt with an issue with so it's not actually got a new door, it's just moved from one to the other.

Painted dark, it doesn't really look you don't really notice much about the the style.

And when I look and see the picture of what was there before, that was not particularly uh an appropriate door either, per se.

You know, it's kind of like a looks like a back door kind of thing from the 30s or something.

Um I think uh if I were gonna say that he needed to do this right, it probably would be to add something above it that looks like a transom, and that would do that.

Uh that would be great.

I don't know that it adds very much in this location myself, and I so I'm just suggesting this might be one possible way to give in on something to him.

Uh I don't want to dominate this, but again, there's six of these things.

Okay, the south elevation, east facing door.

Um if you're getting those up on here or not, but that one is highly visible.

Um yes, it's on the side, but it's it's part of the body of the house.

It's uh there's a lot of land over there, it's just very visible.

Um let me see, Shelby, if I understand this right.

I'm looking at pictures of what it used to look like, and it looks like it had a transom above it that's been closed in.

Is that the way it was before he started working on it, or is that the way it was before he even owned the house?

So the picture on the screen right now would have been how it was purchased.

Um it's unknown if there were transoms there or if they were just taller doors.

I think per commission discussion at the last hearings, we kind of had settled on they were probably just larger doors because it didn't seem maybe tall enough.

Um the front door had the same issue where it was downsized, and we ended up just going with a larger door in that instance.

Well, I would think that he could accomplish this by putting a frame in a transom.

It wouldn't have to be a real transom window.

Um that that would put that element into the proper proportion, and still he could use that same door.

That would be my suggestion on that.

Now the half-cove shingle boards, those bands.

Uh okay, on the front of the house, what am I looking at?

Are those have did he take off and he put brand new ones on?

And those are all individual ones?

Correct.

What is in this picture here, and what you would have seen today is true shingles on the front facade.

Uh because it they look fine.

Um the photo he offered us of his making that alteration to what he already has looks to me like it might have some possibility.

I didn't notice where it was, but I I did not walk around and look at every square inch.

So I don't know.

Did you is that photo from something that you actually do a pat a test patch?

Right, sir.

We this was an obscure place.

Okay.

And it's right above the not site door, which you are saying is obscure.

Okay.

So that's where we made a sample of it.

Okay.

Um I wasn't sure that this would apply use, but I wanted to make it in a place where it does not need to visit the turf.

Shelby, have you been out to the site and looked at this that he altered?

So we did look at it.

Um the issue is it doesn't resolve the profile issues that exist.

So staff felt the best option was actually going back in with true shingles to not only get the correct material but to also correct the layering pattern and discrepancies.

The profile is pretty close, though.

Or am I missing something?

There are areas that are very uneven.

Um some sections have more boards than others, um, and so it's just not lining up with what was there historically.

Okay.

Um just looking at it, it doesn't look that different than the other than the and and in my mind's eye, if he were to create the cuts in it, it seems to me like it might look very close.

Um but I haven't gone out there and walked it with you, and you show me all these little small spots and things like that, so I don't know.

I'm just telling you what my impression is.

Uh but at the very least, I think he would need to make physical changes like he's proposing if it could be done and be acceptable.

I think leaving it the way it is is probably not going to work.

Okay, then we've got three gables with shingling in it.

So I'm gonna take them one by one.

Um the one on the very back, it has uh it's hard to tell what the deal is.

Do you have a picture of that?

Yeah.

The uh before picture has the vent off to the side.

It's not centered, which would not it clearly was added at some point because it wouldn't have ever been built that way.

Right.

So I don't know what's gone on up there, but it there's been some changes.

So the exact shingling that's there may or may not be the way it was originally.

I don't know.

Um if you're going down the alley, it's very visible.

And to me, the difference in the proportions is pretty stark.

Um that also is the same comment to the south elevation gable where you've got the ones that are uh on a curve.

Now that gable is very visible, and it's it's to me it's an a good example of how a lot of people think a little bit difference in proportions doesn't matter, but it can make a big difference, and they almost look cartoon-like to me.

I you know, because they're just a little they're too big and clunky.

Um the material seems to be fine, and the way it's applied seems to be fine.

Um, but it it's just not the right thing, and uh I think that they should be changed.

The one on the north elevation, this is the last one, is difficult to see, but you do see it when you're walking down the street from the north going south, and it's it's very visible at one point, and there is a tree there that's may or may not always be there, you know.

They're not always there, so and that would be even more visible.

There's actually if you look at the two the before and after, there's more that's been changed than just the siding.

Uh on the left, there's a trim piece at the base of the gable so that you have a triangular element, and that is now not there.

I I don't know what happened.

I don't know if that was gone before he had the house or not.

Um but again, when you're standing there when you do see it from the front, and you're also seeing the shingling on the front facade where the proportions are appropriate, it's so obvious that it's it's just too too big.

And I I think I mean actually I I and I'm not gonna suggest that we have him put that trim piece back, but that would make it even better.

But at this point, I I think that the shingling though, there isn't that much up there.

It needs to be done properly, right proportions.

So those are my comments.

Okay.

Sorry, I took so long.

No, it's fine.

Thank you.

Uh other comments from the commission.

Okay.

I I don't have any comments with the one the only, I should say I do have one comment.

I would like to get to an approval process this evening, and I don't think we need to have Ollie come back.

I think he can work with staff.

We're spending a lot of time with him on this property, and we have more work to do than just this.

So I want to get to an approval this evening that didn't work with staff and make sure it gets implemented this evening.

I don't know if anybody wants to argue about that, but that would be at least my suggestion this evening.

So I think we follow what David is suggesting.

And I'll ask the applicant if he has any final comments, but I think that's where we're headed.

And uh let you offer any comment, Ollie, but I don't think we're gonna be making any adjustments from what was just presented.

I respect a lot of what the commission is doing, and definitely I agree that there's a tremendous amount of time is spent on this one single thing.

Right, and I have full confidence in staff that we can work together to bring this to a closure.

Uh just about the half cove shingles, the profile issue was one of the issues with the uh staff.

Exactly by measurement, the each shingle matches with the original, because we took three shingles and averaged them and made our result.

So the profile should not be a problem.

Layering pattern, I mean, even in previous uh you know meetings, uh, commissioners had mentioned that from the street, it looks fine.

So, yeah, if you put it under the microscope, might be there a little bit.

Um it's an old building.

It's not a brand new solution.

Sure.

No matter how much you try, it will be uneven.

So this is all I have to say.

So this is all I have to say, but thank you for your truly expertise and spending so much time on such a little person like me.

Okay, thank you.

Uh Meg.

Yes.

If you could excuse me, summarize the changes for me again so that I make sure that I have everything written that I think I heard you say.

My proposal.

My suggestion is that the north side east facing door be approved as is that the south elevation east facing door have a faux transom designed above it to get the hype.

Uh the proportions of that and the height and the dimensions is something he the uh owner can work out with the staff that the um rear west elevation gable gable lands to be re-shingled with the same proportions as probably what's on the front of the house, because that one looks good.

Okay, and the south elevation gable needs to be reshingled in the uh proportions that match what was there originally, and the north elevation dormer needs to be re-shingled again with the same proportions as on the front of the house, because that again looks fine and they'll look good together, and then lastly the co-shingle boards.

What I would like to see him do is work with you to make adjustments to them, uh, the adjustments that he's suggesting, and uh there may need to be again.

I don't know all the little quirks about where maybe there's a problem that you have, but maybe something could be worked out at those particular spots to make it acceptable.

Um if you don't think that could be done acceptably, you could bring that back to us.

But I'd like to see him make alterations and make that work.

That works.

Yes, if you could give me like five minutes to make sure I have this all.

Yep.

Okay.

I'm going to read the whole thing.

Okay, please.

Staff recommends to approve a certificate of authorization for work completed without approval, including replace the rear west elevation door.

Install five-inch reveal lap siding on the garage.

Downsize the north side east facing door opening.

Replace the north side north facing door.

Replace the north side east facing door.

Including the following required changes, and I'm going to read these.

Add transom to south elevation east facing door.

Make adjustments to the faux half cove shingle boards on the north, south, and west elevations, and replace the shake siding on the north, south, and west elevations to match the historic material.

All per the well, all per subject to the uh six stipulations in the staff's written report and two notes, and we're going to strike the last comment requiring uh Mr.

Ollie to come back to the commission.

Did I get it?

Okay, I think that's right.

See a finger.

You said transom.

It could be a faux transform.

You might say transome or faux transom.

Because if he wants to do a real one, great.

Or faux transom.

Okay, duly noted.

Thank you.

Is the uh applicant in agreement with the uh staff recommendation as presented are you in agreement with the staff recommendation as presented?

Definitely.

Okay, do we want to keep the same deadline?

Yes, that's fine.

The January deadline work for you.

Yes, yes.

Okay.

All right.

I'll take a motion for the staff recommendation as read, please.

Thank you, Mike.

Lots of seconds.

Thanks, Annie.

Any final comments?

All those in favor of the motion, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Any opposed?

Okay, thank you.

Good luck with your final project.

Any final items, Meg.

No, sir.

Okay, we stand adjourned.

Thank you all.