All right, good evening.

I'll call the November Indianapolis Historic Preservation Commission meeting to order.

Um we have no minutes to approve this evening.

The October minutes are going to be uh pushed to uh uh next month in December.

So we'll start with uh old business and we have one case this evening, 2025 COA three five one Holy Cross, address one twenty-five North Oriental Street, Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Indianapolis, and we are approving the negative findings of fact.

Meg, do you want to you want to take us through that, please?

Sure, just as a reminder, um, when the commission denies an application, we come back to you the following month to adopt the negative findings.

Um essentially the reasons for the denial.

So Emily has a copy of that, and we will ask for your signature this evening.

Okay.

All right.

Do we need to vote on that before we sign it?

Yeah, I assume as much.

Uh could I get a motion to approve the negative findings of fact?

Uh thanks, Annie.

Thanks, Susan.

Uh any final comments?

All those in favor of the motion, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Any opposed?

Same sign.

Okay, thank you.

We'll pass that around just while sign it.

Uh we'll move to new business now.

Uh the case uh twenty twenty-five R uh-03.

Uh Meg, do you want to explain what this is and maybe give a little background on the building ethos group too?

Sure.

So we are asking for your approval this this evening to move forward with hiring a consultant for preservation services to update the old North Side plan.

Um, we went through a RFQ process and we selected Building Ethos LLC, which probably doesn't ring any bells to you, but the person behind the LLC will, and that's Elizabeth Nowak, who is our former preservation planner.

Um if you remember, she was the one that launched the Preserve India Initiative when she worked here.

And so um we had her submit a request along I think we received seven requests for qualifications in total.

Um but her familiarity with the project um was one of the reasons why we selected her, and um she has agreed to enter into a contract with us on this project.

Uh the MDC did hear a RFQ or exc uh resolution request this afternoon for the use of the funds for this project.

So we just ask for your approval to move forward with it as well.

All right, thank you, Meg.

Any uh questions from the commission for Meg, please, Annie.

Um will this go on to other neighborhood?

Like is this beginning here and then it will spread?

Yes, great question.

So this is going to be the first updated plan of all 17 of them.

Um obviously we're gonna have to probably enter into a contract with others in the future, but since that's a heavy lift for staff.

Um Grace is already working on actually typing out some of the plans to have those ready.

Um but I think our next one that we're gonna probably uh do an RFQ for in 2026 is for the uh Woodruff Place plan.

So we'll we might be back to enter into another contract later in the year.

Other questions?

If not, I'll take a motion to approve uh the professional service agreement.

Thank you, Annie.

Anson, thanks for the second.

Any final comments?

All those in favor, please signify by saying aye.

Aye, any opposed, same sign?

Okay, thank you.

And before doing so, let me introduce the commission members and the staff who are with us this evening.

I am Bill Brown, President.

Uh Anson Keller, uh, Commissioner to my right, uh, David Baker, Vice President to my left, uh, Annie Lear, uh, Commissioner, uh, just in front of me, uh, Susan Williams, our secretary to my left, and Mike uh Bivens, Commissioner, uh, also to my left.

Uh the staff this evening, uh, we have Meg Bush, our administrator, Chris Steinmetz, our legal counsel, Emily Jarson, our principal architectural reviewer, Shelby Long, our senior architectural reviewer, Grace Gedecker, our preservation planner and recorder, Margan Marlejo, our architectural reviewer, and Carolyn Emmanacer, our architectural reviewer.

The commission has copies of IC 36-7-11.1, the Marion County zoning ordinances, the historic preservation zoning ordinance, and all historic area plans for Marion County on file, which will be incorporated by reference into the record of each case heard by the commission this evening.

This evening's hearing will be governed by the commission's rules of procedure, which are also incorporated into the record of this proceeding.

Anyone wanting to get notice that a decision made by this commission has been appealed, they may fill out a notification form within five days of the decision.

The forms are available and may be obtained from the commission staff.

The commission strongly recommends against submitting new written materials at the hearing.

Doing so may result in the application being continued if the commission or the staff believes the material substantially alters the request or requires more review than is reasonable at a public hearing.

However, if supplemental material related to a case is being submitted this evening, please submit it to IHPC staff when you come up to testify.

The chair would also like to remind the public that expartite contact with the commissioners, which is contact relating to a matter before the commission outside of this public hearing process is prohibited.

The order of each case this evening will be as follows.

We'll call the applicant forward to make their presentation, and then we'll also ask for public uh support uh for that application.

Both steps will be allowed up to a maximum of 20 minutes.

Then we will ask for objections or remonstrations.

That will be allowed up to a maximum of an additional 20 minutes.

We'll then ask for staff comment.

We'll take questions from the commissioners, and then the applicant will have a last order rebuttal up to an additional maximum of 10 minutes, and then I'll ask Meg for a staff recommendation.

So before uh calling the uh the first case, uh, if we could have anyone who's gonna speak to any of the cases this evening, uh please stand up and be uh be uh sworn in uh by Grace if you would do that for us, Grace, please.

If you could raise your hand for me, please.

Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth?

Say I do.

Thank you.

All right, thank you, Grace.

Uh we have one case uh that to withdraw or continue this evening.

Meg, you want to take us through the one case, please?

2025 COA 301 Chatham Arch Massachusetts Avenue.

The address is 656 East Arsh Street and applicants Abbey Robertson, and the request is to continue to December 3rd.

Okay.

Any questions from the Commission?

If not, I'll take a motion for the continuance to December 3rd.

Thanks, Mike.

Thanks, Susan.

Uh any final comment?

All those in favor of the continuance, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, same sign.

Okay, thank you.

We'll move to expedited cases.

We have two this evening.

Meg, please take us through those.

2025, COA 322 Fletcher Place.

Address is 767 Fletcher Avenue.

Applicant is Mark Crouch.

And the request is to construct a single family house and carriage house.

2025 COA 402 Cottage Home.

Address is 610 Dorman Street.

And the applicant is Hannah Abel.

And the request is to also construct a single family house and carriage house.

All right.

Is there anyone in the public that wishes to speak to any of the expedited cases?

Seeing none, is there anyone on the commission wants to speak to the expedited cases?

All good.

Okay, I'll take a motion for the approval of the two expedited cases as presented by staff, please.

Thank you, David.

Thank you, Susan.

Any final comments?

All those in favor of the two cases, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Any opposed?

Same sign?

Okay, thank you.

All right, we'll move to applications to be heard, which are continued to this evening.

We have uh the next case is 2025 COA 345 Chattamarch, Massachusetts Avenue and Variants 2025 VHP 009.

Address is 922 North College Avenue.

Matthew Payton is the applicant.

If you would come forward, state your name and address and present your case to us.

Sure.

Matthew Payton address is 6219 Gifford Avenue.

I do have supplemental information if we can get that passed out.

Yeah, hand it to Grace and she'll get it to us.

In order sorry.

That's a bit.

If you have the pattern, uh yeah, so if they're stapled together as long as everyone gets one of the stapled items together.

I could be sure.

Um so included in the packets that are being passed around is the findings of facts that have been updated again with a little bit more on site specific um conditions and then relating to context and how it benefits to the welfare and safety of the neighborhood.

Um just worded a little more clearly this time.

Um if you do have time to read it as I'm presenting, please do.

Um if not, um the staff can review it later at a later time.

Um there was also a mistake on the back elevation that I noticed in my review of the documents this morning.

So I updated uh the windows are actually flipped.

So you will see on the first 11 by 17 a new back elevation with the windows matching the floor plan that was presented in the original packet.

So as things change from the last time the floor plan was changed pretty drastically upstairs, so that's why the windows have been changed around quite a bit.

Um then should be most prelivent at this time, and then we'll kind of mention some other items as they come along.

So just to recap from last time, um, originally this property was three separate parcels um that had three separate residences on it.

Um one happened to be a duplex in the back corner.

Um if you remember, um, it was the smallest parcel that had two living units as well.

Um, and then when the corner uh turn lane was put in by the city, the parcels were diminished and reduced and then reconsolidated to 922 College as it sits today.

Um and that all happened just last year.

Um again, it's going to be reverted back because the owner sent in a request.

So the next tax year it'll be separated again into separate parcels.

Uh so the existing home obviously is being currently renovated into a duplex that was approved a long time ago.

Um it is still underway.

They are finishing the sighting as we speak.

Um, so things are moving pretty quickly on that side.

Um, but then this house is the new proposed house that is designed to face College Avenue.

Um, so it's all facing College Avenue along most of the houses on the street are all facing College Avenue.

Hardly anyone faces 10th Street, which I presented last time to you guys.

Um, and then it's more of a modern design compared to the historic homes, um, which uh I think would be a good addition to the uh neighborhood to give it a little bit more of its time versus trying to match too much of the historic nature and replicating it.

Um but again that's maybe opinion of the commissioners if they like the modern design or not.

Um but we can have that discussion.

Um changes from last hearing after working with staff, um, understanding a little bit more of the clear site triangle requirements.

It requires that there's no impeding erections within two and a half feet above the ground to eight feet above the ground.

So anything in between those zones has to be remaining clear.

So knowing that in mind, the second floor is beyond that eight-foot height.

So what we're doing is we're overhanging the second floor, so it's five feet closer to College Street.

So the whole house ended up moving up five feet closer to College Street.

Versus last time, obviously, we were having the debate of did this house sit too far back from College Street and uh justification of the rest of the houses and how everything is almost perfectly in line along college on this block.

Um obviously the corner of the lot is sectioned off, so it's a tight corner that you can't build anything on.

Um so that's kind of why the house obviously is pushed back, but obviously we're finding ways to get it as close as possible to College Street by giving uh that additional five feet.

And then so by overhanging the five feet, we actually angled if you go to the first floor floor plan.

You can see that the front wall was angled out towards the intersection to more address the funky shape of the site and maximize as much of the footprint on the first floor as possible.

It obviously creates an interesting feature.

Um, so the the house looks a little bit more unique than a standard box that could be built anywhere, as mentioned before.

Um I think it's a great feature to have, and it allows for a bigger window in that dining room, obviously, and a little bit more visual interest as you have this interesting uh irregularity of this intersection.

Um then, so after review as well, there was discussion about how the paneled wall to the north was a little high from a pedestrian point of view.

Um I lowered it by four feet to make it more at a pedestrian level.

Um it did eliminate any use on the second floor inside of the space, um, but it is just low enough to allow the landing at the stairs for the headroom that's required to get up to the second floor.

So it's as low as it could possibly go with the stairs and the orientation that it's currently.

Um obviously it helps a little bit more to bring that scale down, it's four additional feet.

It actually is four feet shorter in length as well, um, as you can see back in the mud room on the back door.

Um, bringing that facade closer inward from the back corner allows it to be less of a full length exhibit on the side of the house.

Um, and then obviously giving that sense of scale back down so the porches have their fascia that continues on, which is that even at a lower level.

So everything comes down more to a human scale.

Um the porches themselves did actually um create a thicker fascia.

Um, this is so I can hide the new structural beams that'll be required to support the second floor that's overhanging over the front porch.

Um, and then obviously I wanted to match the detail on the back.

Um, it is not required on the back, um, but it is obviously a good idea to match the detail wherever you can on a house.

Um, so it that explains the thicker fascias that you see now in this new iteration.

Uh and then obviously with the new floor plan layout upstairs, a lot of the windows got changed.

Um you'll see that there's two additional high windows above the north wall section.

You actually won't see them at all from the street because it'll be hidden behind the parapet.

Um, but those are in the bathroom to let some natural light, um, and then an additional window on the corn front corner in that bedroom on the front as well.

And then obviously on the back elevation, I gave you the updated windows being flipped.

So the big window is actually on the left side of the back elevation, and then the smaller windows on the right inside of the bathroom that's now located on the south side of the house.

Um so many of the comments from last meeting were mentioning that I felt like there was a little bit of indifference on whether the modern design was appropriate for the neighborhood.

Um, I hope that you find that it is still uh appropriate for the neighborhood and its context.

Um it's obviously not replicating any historical elements and being a little bit more of its time, um, which I think adds value to the distinct character of an interesting neighborhood with a lot of different houses.

Um, no houses the same.

Um, so it keeps everything unique with its nature and adds maybe an additional fun element that each house should probably have.

Um consider the the alternate material on the panel siding as well.

Um we did still consider um a masonry option.

It's very costly to do that for my client.

Obviously, we're trying to keep construction costs as low as possible.

Um if we did do a brick or masonry uh siding option on that north facade, would we have to do the same thing on the carriage house is a question, since we do have the same materials relating to one another on both structures.

Um, so that's maybe a conversation I'd like to hear from you guys on what your comments on that would be.

Um, but obviously the panel system, as long as it has a proper rain screen, it should hold up and have longevity.

A lot of times you see these failures is when you don't have the proper rain screening behind it and it gets water damage, and then the paint starts to flake off and everything starts to rot and fall apart.

And then if you see in the additional new materials, I wanted to propose a potential option for a different facade siding option that maybe we can work with staff with at a later date that would be more of a nickel gap siding, which is a fly ash material as well.

So it doesn't have any wood in it, so it doesn't rot.

And then it has a higher adherence for paint, so it has more longevity out of it from a maintenance perspective.

It is a denser product, so it should crack less, obviously.

And then it would still have that single reveal across because the boards only come in 16-foot lengths.

But that way we keep everything very cohesive and do the random pattern.

And the packet is a brochure of an example of these products.

They come in varying sizes, and I would still do that throughout the pattern of the exterior.

And then the pink house that you also see is actually Hannah's house over here that we did a few years ago, and it's held up really well and is showing this product being used with multiple sizes and a vertical orientation that is held up really nice for this home.

So that would add an interesting material for this facade instead of a standard lap siding.

And then also trying to keep cost as minimal as possible instead of going for a more full masonry option.

If we did go with masonry, then setbacks become another issue because the brick would actually go farther into the setback.

And we're already asking for a five-foot setback.

So that's kind of an option that I'm willing to consider and work with staff at this point.

And trying to avoid that masonry as much as possible.

So when it comes to those setbacks, obviously aligning with all the houses on the front of college would be desirable, but the property doesn't stretch that far.

It comes to a fine point.

So we're kind of doing what we can do to the best of our abilities and still face college avenue along with the rest of the houses and have that front door and front porch along College Avenue.

But obviously, we're gaining that additional five feet, so it's much closer.

It will reduce the clear sight triangle as well, so that I can still have a front porch because the column would be in that clear sight triangle if it was not reduced.

A clear sight triangle would also not allow me to plant a tree in the front.

So it would be nice to have obviously a beautiful tree on the corner.

Obviously, you also see a lot of vegetation along the side.

A five-foot side setback is plenty of space to do some very slender uh tree line, have some plantings, tons of vegetation could still be planted within five feet.

You see it everywhere downtown.

People are very uh resilient on making do with what they can.

Um, and it's a common uh phenomenon within the neighborhood as well.

Um, seeing that most of the houses are built very close to the sidewalk.

Um, I threw out numbers last time from the measurements that I made across the street.

Um the house itself is six foot six from the edge of sidewalk, so not really the property line.

Um, but the porch itself is actually even four foot six, so it's even closer than what I'm proposing to the sidewalk as well.

And then you got another six foot six, a seven foot, um the garage to our uh west directly is less than a foot off of the other edge of the sidewalk.

So everything's very close quarters in this neighborhood, it's within its nature.

Um so having an oversized side setback isn't uncommon, or it is uncommon within the neighborhood, so reducing that to something a little bit more reasonable and cohesive that you'll see throughout the neighborhood as well, I think would be desirable.

Um, and obviously help this uh house be a little bit wider on the front as much as possible, getting it closer to college and having the proportions needed.

Um, with the concerns to the size of the house, um obviously um it's almost identical and massing.

Um, if you look at the house at 914 College in the streetscape, that front section that has the gable, it's the same width as that portion of that house that is very prominent because the rest of it is currently being hidden by a tree.

It's all you see.

Yes, the overall house is much larger and wider, so are all the other ones, but the one next to it directly is only four feet uh wider than what I'm proposing as well.

So it's not a drastic difference in width.

Um obviously small houses are prominent throughout the neighborhood.

Um they're very built very close to one another as well.

Um are single bedroom that are facing all along the street and being the prominent feature on the street.

Um so I think when it comes to size of the house, you have so much very sizes throughout the neighborhood that having something that's a little different than what's right next to it isn't a bad thing because you can see it everywhere down the block.

Um as well.

So the neighborhood association um uh they did not um uh provide a letter of support, um, but they are verbally supportive in email.

I've talked to Dee, um the head of the uh association from our first meeting.

They never had any negative comments about the original design they had.

They were happy to see that we were developing this corner.

Um, and she wrote me in an email that I think they would just be happy with anything at this point.

So that's that's their opinion.

Um I was hoping to get an actual letter of support with the new design, um, but they've been very booked with their meetings, so I haven't been able to present um in front of the members, um, and she is sharing them with email and has received no comments, so it's still a kind of a no comment on the project, um, but obviously still supporting something happening on this corner as much as possible.

Um so in conclusion, I think even if the house sits back on the corner, it's still a nice relief from a pedestrian level as you're walking to body work bottle works to not be right next to someone's front porch or have a congested corner and then have a little bit of vegetation.

It's kind of like you know, a front yard pocket pocket park at that point.

Um so it's more of a service to the community um to have that green space on the front versus having the existing home is three feet from the sidewalk, like the steps are basically right off of the sidewalk.

So having a little bit more of a buffer from someone's house as you're walking by is probably a desire for some of these neighborhoods, or this neighborhood in general, um, having the front porch mentality.

Um then so uh obviously the existing home will still remain um a prominent historic figure on the corner as more than 50% of its side facade is still being shown, as you can see from this angle.

Um if you could flip through as well through the 3Ds and show from uh this is kind of from the back corner across the street.

Well, you would see this is at the corner if you were waiting to cross and walk alongside of the house to get a sense of the scale of that wall, and then here as well, um walking in the other direction, more driving at this point because you're kind of in the street.

If you could go to the very first one or a couple couple of the first ones, um go down one more.

So, like this one is if you're waiting to cross right at the corner of Bottle Works.

So this is your view.

Um, getting a little bit more of a kind of it's a long curve because it is a turning lane, so having kind of the house recessed and follow that curve seems a little appropriate for the kind of the irregularity of the site itself.

Um but obviously the proximity to the sidewalk you see throughout this neighborhood across the street, everything's just as close.

Um, people have planters and walls right up against the sidewalk, um, and people have no issue walking along two-story houses that have these features very close uh in proximity to the walking surface.

Um overall, I think it'd still be very respectful of the historic nature of the neighborhood given its profile and size and quality.

Um obviously I think it should be a little bit more standing of its time and having a little bit more of a modern flare.

Um, and I hope you find the same opinion.

Um, but at this point I think it would be a really good improvement for this very vacant corner.

Um, and I'd love to hear um how you feel about these changes.

All right, thank you.

And I think we have just another minute.

Uh anyone wishing to speak in support of the application?

Anyone wishing to speak in remonstrance?

Okay, hearing none, uh, we're ready for staff comment.

Uh Shelby, please.

Um, so staff does find that pulling the front porch forward as well as cantilevering the second floor over the porch and uh lowering that northern portion that is flat roofed did help improve the design.

Um we do still have some concerns, um, most notably the setback and the narrow width of the structure.

Um so this evening we recommended the commission discuss the proposal to determine if the changes made are sufficient for your comments from the last hearing, or if you would like to see additional changes.

Um, and we have a motion in the staff report for both a continuance if you feel additional changes are needed, or an approval if you find um the approach acceptable, and I can answer any questions.

All right, thanks, Shelby.

Questions from the commission, please.

David, please go ahead.

I think I feel that on this particular site, nothing's ever going to fit in in a traditional way.

If something's gonna be here, it's gonna be different.

And I kind of think that the uh going with a more modernist contemporary design is probably appropriate here rather than airing on the traditional side.

Um because whatever goes there is going to be it is gonna be um not cited in a traditional way.

So and I basically I I like the design of it, and I think what you've done with that, I don't know what to call the thing on the side on the north wall.

Yeah, yeah.

Uh but it's it's very different and very much better in my mind than it was before.

Um instead of it looking like this traditionally because it is still, even though it's a contemporary house, it it's a traditional shape.

Okay, it was kind of like obscured by this wall thing.

Uh now you're it's you're it the um the form of that house is very visible behind it and and kind of forms the shape of the building as opposed to this being obscured by this.

I'm a little less bothered by the material at the smaller scale, uh, which I think is gonna make a big difference to the way that looks along 10th Street.

Um one other thing.

I don't know if it's a optical illusion or what, but when I look at the front facade, and I look at the door and the window next to it.

The window looks an inch and a half shorter.

I don't know.

I'm I'm just make making up that dimension.

But is it the angled portion now of the first floor?

It doesn't quite look like it lines up, and I don't know if that's an optical illusion or if it has to do with the trim.

I just to confirm, are we talking about the window and the dining room on the front porch?

Yes.

Yes, it's that angled wall.

So you're looking straight on, so it's actually more at an angle and playing with your perception if you're looking at it in two deep.

I just want to make sure that if this gets built that I think they should be lined up.

The top of the door and the top of that window.

You mean so the door and then the window above it?

Yeah, that they actually just align.

Oh, well, yeah.

Yeah, they should be in alignment.

Um I don't know why it would look they are drawn in alignment.

Okay, it's just me.

When I just look at that, it looks like I went right to it, and I'm trying to figure out.

Yeah, the head of the window matches the door below.

But I don't know.

I just want you to make sure it's okay.

Interesting.

Yeah, I don't I guess I don't understand how not that I don't understand you.

I do understand, yes, it could be an optical illusion.

Yes.

But the head of the window and the door will match.

It may be because uh maybe it's a board above the door that isn't above the window.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's just not showing up.

Oh, you think so?

So if that trim board was above the window as well, then maybe that would be.

That's not even a very important thing.

But it's the trim piece.

Maybe those are my companies, maybe about about the house.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you, David.

Questions?

Anyone?

Susan, please.

Yes, I too really appreciate um the creativity with which you um responded to our concerns, and I think this is really a good design.

This makes me particularly happy if you'd allow me a personal moment.

Years ago, right in the middle of that lot, a little bit forward was the big box of stuff that operates the lights.

The traffic lights.

And it took me five years to get that thing moved across the street.

So I'm not sure.

I believe someone might see something.

Oh no, it's been a while ago.

It's been a while ago.

So this is a really nice nice thing for me to see.

Particularly disturbing is the one that's almost at ground level on the main house.

Really doesn't relate to much of anything.

And I know there's a stairway back there, but it just seems like that could find itself either gone or in alignment with these other windows.

And the same with the garage.

Those three windows really look random to me.

And it would be interesting to see if you couldn't line some things up.

So lining the head heights of those windows and size.

You're talking about getting in the line vertically.

Oh horizontally.

On the garage?

No, on the on the north elevation.

Well, the only window that I that really bugs me is the one that's real low.

Right.

Um, and that's something that can be handled by staff.

Okay.

Um then the other ones, I think the ones on the garage, again, I don't know really how you would want to align them, but it just seems like they ought to relate to something.

So those are really my only two concerns.

And again, that's something that could be handled at the staff level.

See if there's some.

I will say so.

The windows on the carriage house were designed in a way to kind of match the the elevation of the stairs as you walk up the stairs to kind of announce that there's a stair to the street with the windows orientation.

And sometimes that's a it's a very interesting feature on a lot of homes that they have kind of the windows following the steps up the stairs.

But if you'd rather see everything in perfect unison across that could be something we can resist.

Whatever can work.

I I think what you see in the neighborhood is a very linear kinds of patterns of windows, which make these even look more random.

Okay.

The the other thing that I wanted to um I've been thinking about traffic patterns over there, and the clear sight triangle, you know, we've done a lot of um zoning variances regarding the clear site triangle.

And I the way that the traffic moves and because of where it is and so forth, I wouldn't think that that clear sight triangle would be quite so precious in terms of traffic and safety and so forth.

So I would if there's something you really want to do there, I would really consider it and talk to staff about it and see if it makes sense because as I look, I'm not sure there's any the way you've got this laid out.

I'm not sure that there's any place for another tree, but I like your tree patterns.

Sure.

Just think about that.

Sure.

Okay, thank you.

Um I will make a comment on uh so the clear sight triangle um is just enough to get that tree and that porch in currently, um, but because of the side setback, the house itself cannot go any closer because it's right up against that side setback on that.

Yeah, I was thinking floor corner.

I was thinking more of landscaping though, of course.

I wouldn't move the house.

I think the house is right where it needs to be.

Yeah, for an additional tree, maybe.

Anything under 30 inches can still be landscaped.

Um as long as there's some low vegetation on that corner and maybe a low fence, it's very common to have a little gated entrance along the sidewalk as well.

Um so these are features that I'd be willing to work with staff on as well.

Okay, other questions for the commission?

Annie, please.

This is kind of inconsequential and more out of curiosity.

So are these houses going to be for sale, or what is the plan sort of for the properties?

Sure.

So um the owner um currently owns both properties.

Um he will be renting them, but this one is designed that he could sell at a later date if he needs to.

The new one.

So it's yes, the new house.

And then the carriage house would be a rental property would be a rental.

But um, having um this as a resale kind of option to have the carriage house as well, would be desirable if he would ever want to get out of here.

So that's the second house and the carriage house would kind of go as one.

Yes.

Okay.

Yes.

And then how many square feet is the this house?

And the carriage house?

I believe it's um 800 something on the first floor, 880 on the first floor, and about 785 on the second, with an additional 500 in the basement.

So 2700.

Okay.

And then the carriage house?

The carriage house.

I can look that up for you.

Um it is well under the allowed 720, I think, but obviously, given the nature it's a two-car garage versus a three-car garage that we'll see in a lot of these neighborhoods.

Um, is 540.

Okay.

So it still has a single bedroom, a decent sized kitchen and family room, and its own washer and dryer and bathroom as well.

And then the main the historic house I've noticed the siding was going super fast, and there hasn't been anything done on the siding for probably three weeks, almost a month.

Yeah, I actually met with the contractor um last week.

Um he was getting more supplies um as we were talking.

Um so he like ran away from me because he had to go meet the truck at the side.

Um then the house is gonna be a rental as well, the historic.

Yes, that has been converted to a duplex now, so it'll have two rental units.

Um they will be long-term rentals.

We already have a commitment to never do short-term, no Airbnbs.

Um that's the only request from the neighborhood that they have the whole time.

Okay, thank you.

Other questions from the commission.

Okay, I I'll just offer a couple comments.

I think the changes are really, you know, quite quite favorable to the to the design.

I did want to ask about this alternative material.

I I'm fine with you going to that if that's what you're wanting to do, if that's the preference.

Okay.

Yeah, I don't I don't have any real issue with that.

Um have you talked at all excuse me?

Have you talked at all about color as to what your colors were?

No, but obviously we'll work with staff um when the time comes um to selecting color.

Um I didn't know if kind of what I showed in the model was kind of playing off of the existing colors.

Yeah, I didn't know.

That will be painted next door.

Right.

Yeah.

So I have the actual colors that'll be on that house that we approved in the original COAM shown next door, and in relation, like um maybe being a little bit more respective of that color scheme as the rest of the street.

I guess doesn't have too much variety in color as well.

Um, so I believe there's a blue house, um, a red brick house, right?

And that's kind of all you see.

Yeah, just having gone through a color conversation in Lockery Square, just want to make sure we're we're not gonna have that same conversation.

No, and uh I believe staff has to reprove paint colors um during the construction checklist, right?

So yeah, we'll definitely be working together at that point.

Yeah, staff will alert us if there's anything.

Of course, there's no that's fine.

Any final comments from you?

Oh, sorry, Annie, go ahead.

Sorry, one random question again, going back to my previous random questions.

Are you planning a fence around the property?

Do you know?

Uh I guess he is renting it.

Um, it makes no difference to the owner at this time, but obviously, if there's someone who plans on living here for a long time and wanting to make some site improvements and define the boundaries of their yard, which is very common within the neighborhood.

Um, then that would be something that we would come back and get approved.

Because just I would just maybe have him consider that.

I mean, he's maybe not going to want to because it's a rental, but there's just so much traffic, like people traffic kind of along that area.

To keep people from kind of cutting the corner and walking through the front yard.

It's been an empty lot.

Or getting a package off of your front door.

It's been an empty lot for a very long time.

So I would just encourage you to encourage him to consider it.

Sure.

If I could just wow, okay.

Um we can have that conversation with with you.

Just be mindful, it could trigger a new variance.

So we'll have to look at that very closely if you want to come back and do or if the owner wants to come back and do that.

But there are some limitations on the height and due to the visibility and transparency of the fencing, so we'll just have to take a really close look at that.

Yep.

Okay, all right.

Uh Meg, I think we're ready for a staff recommendation for approval.

Staff recommends to approve a certificate of appropriateness to construct a single family dwelling and carriage house and for a variance of development standards per the eight stipulations and one note in the staff's written report.

And I just want to draw attention to stipulations number one, two, and three, which will require you to come back with final construction drawings.

Yes.

Okay.

All right.

I'll take a motion for the staff recommendation as read, please.

Thank you, David.

Thank you, Susan.

Any final comments?

All those in favor of the motion, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Any opposed?

Okay, thank you.

Uh the variance.

Staff recommends to approve a variance of development standards for construction in the required clear site triangle and for a reduced corner side setback per the submitted findings of fact and the site plan included in the November 5th, 2025 IHBC staff report.

All right, thank you.

Can I get a motion for the variance as read by staff, please?

Thank you, David.

Second place, Susan, thank you.

Any final comments?

All those in favor of the variance, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, same sign?

Okay, thank you.

Good luck with your project.

Thank you.

One additional comment.

So the construction document, Meg.

Sorry.

Yes, and I the reason I mentioned.

Do I need to come back to a hearing for that?

Or is that the just a little bit of a just wanted to confirm?

No, that's what I'm used to.

Just be mindful that we'll need for you to do that before permitting.

Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm aware.

Thank you.

Okay.

Thank you.

We'll now move to applications be here which are new this evening.

We have one case 2025 COA 399 Old North Side and Variance 2025, VHP 010, address 1508 Broadway Street.

David Smith is the applicant.

Please come forward, state your name and address, please, and present your case.

Hi, good evening.

My name is David Smith.

I'm an architectural designer at Custom Living.

We're a design build firm.

And we are helping the Bartoletties with the carriage house in the back of their property.

Sam and Dave Bartoletti have put a and are putting a tremendous amount of resources into resurrecting the carriage house in the back of their property.

Both by reinforcing it structurally and by replacing disintegrating materials on the outside as well as in the foundation.

Really is uh maintaining the integrity of that building and the historic nature of the property.

Um that's really forefront of their mind.

Um the things that we're here for today include uh maintaining or or changing a single door on the east side of the facade on the east facade between the house and the pool and the carriage house into a double door, and then putting an appropriate double window above that.

Um and also changing the hayloft door.

What was the hayloft door on the west facade into a glass or partial glass window with a Juliet balcony?

Um really goal of both of these to make this space both historically accurate but also livable.

Um and part of that livability is bringing natural light into the space.

Obviously, uh, when the structure was first built in its original intent, uh light was not important.

Um to maintain usage of this building, it is important.

Um the door and the window on that east facade.

We are replicating exactly the door that's existing.

We're having them custom made.

Um, but now there would be two rather than one.

Um then on the uh that hayloft door.

We have proposed um uh a set of glass doors, but historically accurate with divided light, something that would have been appropriate to the period with then a Juliet balcony.

Um the doors on that east side um we really feel like having both of them there allows both natural light to come in but also the family to use that in conjunction with the house and the pool as one cohesive space.

Um it's mostly obscured from Broadway.

Um we're still doing it, we're still replicating that door.

Um, but you really won't be able to see much of it from Broadway Street.

Yeah, I think uh those are sort of the the main points that I wanted to hit on.

Um we are obviously open to suggestions, um, but we really do want to allow as much light into the space as possible as they're investing in in the structure and the neighborhood.

Okay.

Any anyone wishing to speak in support of the application, please name and address.

Hi, Samantha Hargett, uh, sometimes Samantha Bartoletti, uh, 1508 Broadway.

I'm the homeowner, just um here in case there are additional questions.

Um we have owned the home for about four years now, um, and previously have been in the neighborhood, so um it's important to us to you know make sure that this is done well, but also in a way that we can use it uh and and be functional.

Um note about the hayloft door on the alley.

One reason we requested um that it be maintained as a door rather than asking to convert it to a window or something is um that is going to be one of the few points that's accessible for furniture moving upstairs.

Um it's a really tight space.

Uh there's not a ton of area on the south side of the building where the entrance to the upstairs apartment will ultimately be.

Um but if you guys have any questions or suggestions or things I'm I can weigh in on, I'm here as well.

So thank you for your time.

Thank you.

Anyone else wishing to speak in support of the application?

Anyone wishing to speak in remonstrance?

Okay, we're ready for a staff comment, then shall we please staff is recommending to split this case into two parts.

Part A would be for approval of the variants in the creation of the Juliet balcony, and for the balcony, we have recommended a different door style to be more reminiscent of the hayloft use that this opening historically was.

And then part B, we're recommending denial to alter those east side openings.

Um this elevation is the primary elevation of the structure, it's the most decorative of the structure, and per the plan, it's inappropriate to alter openings on principal elevations as well as to alter the proportionality of a historic structure, and so we're recommending those be split that way.

And I also just did want to add a note for clarification.

Um any of the additional work you see on the plans in the submittal are from previous cases we worked through at the staff and administrative hearing level.

So just those openings are before you this evening, and I can answer any questions.

All right, Shelby, thank you.

Uh questions, comments from the commission, please.

David, go ahead.

Um I guess I'm I'm looking at this in the context of the fact that they've already gotten quite a lot of approvals.

There's extensive work on the plans that the uh applicants submitted to us.

Um we're only hearing those few items that have not already been approved.

So looking at this in context, they've already gotten approvals for some fairly significant changes.

Um the north facade, they've already got approval to move the garage door and put another second garage door.

So that and to put in two windows on the second floor, uh neither of which is in the location of the original window.

So that particular facade has been compromised a lot to meet their new use.

Um, and I can understand that.

Trying to get two cars in, you know, and it makes sense.

Uh the south facade has already had the conversion of a original window into a door, and that's already been approved.

So my point is that the project already has made some compromises to the original integrity of the carriage house.

Myself, I'm not that concerned about the hayloft uh door.

I think if I understand it correctly, the door isn't actually there.

What's there now is just a board or something, it's just covered up.

And I think that they're not expanding that opening.

Right.

So I'm not terribly concerned about the infill as long as it's looks all right with the building.

I'm not yet sold on the east facade.

This is there aren't there aren't too many buildings like this left.

And to me, they it does change the character of that facade to go with the double door and the double window.

I look at the floor plan, doesn't seem all that critical to me that you would have to have that.

Um so those are just some thoughts I have.

Thanks, David.

Other questions, comments, commission?

Yeah, I'll kind of sorry with what uh David was saying.

I think that the main facade is um the proportionality is very intentional.

You rarely see a carriage house with this much attention from a design standpoint, so the the verticality uh of those openings is deliberate and a hallmark of the style, and I feel like it would be uh extremely detrimental to the historic character of of that facade to widen those openings into something that they were never intended to be.

I the other changes aren't aren't as critical to me, but that one is something that I don't think I I could get on board with.

Other comments from the commission?

Susan, please.

Yeah, I I agree with um with what you said, and I think extra lighting could possibly um come from from skylighting, if if that would be something that we might be inclined to uh approve.

Um but the the the change the change is dramatic, and I I really have a hard time thinking that's okay.

Um the hayloft area that doesn't bother me at all.

But if you look at the difference, you're you're seeing a a very vertical design turn into a very horizontal look.

Um so that's just a thought if skylighting would be something that we could approve to get more light up there.

Other comments in the commission okay.

I'll just offer a couple myself.

I I too am of the mind that the east elevation is a pretty pure proportion and well designed facade, and to change it, it's really gonna dramatically alter that proportion.

The thing that strikes me, if we're trying to get more light in, these smaller windows that are under the eve, it would seem to me I'd I don't know exactly how they work with the floor plan, but adding more of those in the in the elevation around the building would seem like that could be handled pretty appropriately and not sort of be detrimental to the overall approach of the design of the stick style and so forth.

And I think that could be a way in addition to what Susan said with the skylight approach, also could bring in more daylight, but I think altering this east elevation is just a non-starter.

You've obviously heard that from several of us, so I don't think we're gonna get there on it.

The the the loft obviously can be you know a window and and the Juliet balcony all seems fine.

I don't have any issue with that at all, but I think altering the east elevation is gonna be a big problem.

So any final comments or questions from the commission?

David, please.

Yeah, when I look at the floor plan, um I see I'm looking at the uh north elevation, and I'm looking at the left side of it.

Uh where the bump out is that the entrance is in.

Um you could very easily put a window right there, and then you'd have two windows into that uh what's a bedroom on the second floor, and the that would have very little effect on the overall proportions as opposed to the double window in the front.

Sorry, could could you confirm again where where you're speaking of for that window?

I think opposite the closet.

Okay.

Right there.

Got it.

Okay.

Exactly.

Yeah, and what I was even saying is if you wanted more of those small windows around the perimeter, you could find some pretty easy places to do that, and it would feel like it fit in with the design of the building.

Yeah.

It you know, those are, you know, the the way the the building is designed, you know, the gable is such an important part, and the proportion is actually quite handsome.

But I think you could, if you wanted to dot these smaller windows around the perimeter on this sort of the shoulder part of the building, I think you could easily do that.

And as Susan said, I mean, we've added skylights and I don't know how many buildings.

So that's that's you know not hard at all uh to do.

So but I I I think you're just gonna need to go away from the east elevation and leave it alone.

It's such a primary elevation on the building.

And both the small windows and the skylights would be something we could do just with staff approval.

Yeah, I think so.

I'd you know, if staff felt like there was some real big hurdle we needed to work through, I'd look to Meg to see if we need to come back, but you know, those are kinds of things that I think the staff would be easily be able to handle.

Yes, we can do that.

Yeah.

And on that uh on that west elevation, having a sort of a double glass door there with appropriate lights, that's something that's yeah, I think that's okay.

Yeah, that's really on the alley side.

We as David said, there's been all already modifications.

We've dealt with alley elevations before, they're not the primary elevation.

That's I think there's more flexibility there for you, and I think you've heard that we're all comfortable with what you're doing with that ALOFT and so forth.

Okay.

Yeah.

Thank you.

So I don't know, Meg, if you want to modify the recommendation.

Uh any final comments from the applicant.

Yeah, go ahead, please.

You get you got 10 minutes.

Um I I understand the reticence to approve alterations to that facade, certainly.

Um a couple of notes, I guess.

Um, is there any opportunity to perhaps still expand the windows but not to the extent, or is it just straight no alterations?

And then the one one other point, I guess, is that um one thing that we liked about the idea of the double doors is that there's symmetry with that in the main house.

We have some pretty grand um double doors as the entrance to the main house that that would kind of be um not mirrored, but it would be reminiscent of that to have those on off of the um off of the back deck area.

So the the problem is is that the way the spacing of the the void in the solid right now is really quite handsome.

And when you expand the door, then the the void to opaque relationship changes dramatically, and that's what we're having trouble with.

Okay.

Yeah.

So I I think you're I I know what you're trying to accomplish.

I think you can get daylight maybe differently and not impact probably the one of the nicest elevations you've got on this building.

Okay.

All right, thank you.

Uh-huh.

Meg, uh, go ahead.

Take your time.

Okay, so the current recommendation has 11 stipulations and one note.

I'm gonna add a new number one for final construction drawings are to be submitted to staff showing any changes recommended by the commission, including any new windows or skylights.

Is that acceptable?

Is that acceptable to the applicant?

You guys okay with that?

All right, okay, go ahead, Meg.

Okay.

So for part A, staff recommends to approve a certificate of appropriateness to replace west side second floor door and create Juliet balcony on carriage house and for a variance and development standards per submitted doc documentation and subject to the 12 stipulations and one note in the recommendation.

Okay, and then the variance is part B.

Is that how you're gonna candle it?

Okay, that's fine.

Can I get a motion for the staff recommendation as read, please?

Thank you, David.

Thank you, Mike.

Any final comments?

All those in favor, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Any opposed?

Okay, thank you.

And I'll go ahead and read part B next and then ask for your vote on the variance.

Yep.

For part B, staff recommends to deny a certificate of appropriateness or authorization to alter openings on the east of the carriage house.

Okay.

Uh take a motion uh for the part B staff recommendation is presented, please.

Thank you, David.

Get a second.

Thanks, Mike.

Any final comments?

All those in favor, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Any opposed?

Okay, thank you.

And then the variance.

Staff recommends to approve a variance of development standards to exceed the maximum square footage of an allowed secondary dwelling in it, per submitted documentation and findings of fact in the November 2025 IHBC staff report.

Okay, could I get a motion to approve the variance as presented by staff, please?

Thank you, David.

Susan, thank you.

Final comments.

All those in favor of the variants, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, same sign?

Okay, thank you.

Good luck with your project and work with the staff, and I think you can get to a good answer.

Thank you.

Uh-huh.

Okay.

We'll move to the last case this evening.

Uh, we have no preliminary reviews, so we'll move to applications to be heard.

Work started without approval.

Case 2025 COA 385 Irvington.

The address is 373 Burgess Avenue.

Don Smith is the applicant.

If you could please come forward, state your name and address, and present your case to us, please.

Uh Don Smith, 373 Burgess Avenue owner.

Um, is it possible if like the staff could present because this is violations, like could they like talk first and then we talk?

Or is that out of order?

Generally, we're looking for you at least to tell us what you're trying to do or have done so that we can understand why you did the work without approval.

That's sort of the first step.

I'll go ahead and start.

And then and then we'll follow up with all the staff discussion.

So go ahead, please.

Okay.

Let me pull up my notes.

Hi, we're here again.

Um, so per there the recommendations of the staff.

I mean, most of this work was done 12 years ago.

So honestly, I didn't know that they were violations until they were brought to my attention.

Like number one, the first one, the diamond-shaped window.

Right.

I wouldn't have known that that was altered.

You know, the siding was the house was covered in vinyl sighting, and then when it was uncovered, we saw a diamond-shaped window.

Well, there's a diamond-shaped window after it was done.

I I didn't know, I didn't know that it was lowered or or raised, or you know, it was very very damaged by fire damage.

There was an explosion, there was window, all the windows were blown out of the house.

That's why when we bought the house, all the all the windows were vinyl windows.

So I mean, that's one that I I didn't know.

Um it comes to the chimney replacement.

Uh the chimney was leaking, the chimney was not functioning, water was pouring into the house while the exterior renovation was going on, and they were putting on the new roof.

They were like, we need to build the rebuild the chimney.

So rather than stopping the work and um seeking approval or going through a process, we just had them go ahead and and rebuild the chimney.

Again, I didn't I didn't think that it was different.

The caps have recently been changed because uh we recently put a new furnace in, so they are not aluminum caps as the report says, or something, whatever that says that they are.

Um box soffits and gutters and downspouts.

Uh well, I mean, one of the main disadvantages of open soffits in Indiana are their susceptibility to pest infestations and potential for water and moisture damage.

So our contractor who we were working with at the time was just you know, they're like four-inch soffits, so they went ahead and closed it.

Um let's see.

Uh altering the bay window on the west side, we did find the corbels that are the decorative corbals uh in the basement.

I didn't know anywhere else that they were at, so that's where we put them.

And let's see.

Okay.

Number eight installation of lapse sighting where there was none.

The COA that we got in 2013 was to remove the vinyl siding and replace it with lapse siding.

That's what we did.

Um I I didn't realize that, like, if stucco was discovered that it was our job to restore the stucco.

I didn't realize that if stucco was discovered that it was our job to restore the stucco.

The contractor that I hired was not a stucco contractor.

He had all the siding already purchased and ready to go.

So it was coming up on winter, and I needed the house to be closed up.

So we just went ahead and went forward with it.

And to my knowledge, he removed all of the stucco that was underneath the vinyl sighting when he was reframing it.

It needed a majority of the house needed reframed because of termite damage.

That's that.

Let's see, what am I missing here?

Porch alterations.

I think that in the report, there is a historic photo of a boy standing across the street somewhere.

There we go.

Okay.

So based on the pictures, okay, based on this right here.

Like the way that the concrete is going down at the bottom there.

The buttresses that are violation because we removed those buttresses.

There's no way that those buttresses would have been in that original photo because of the way of the concrete.

Is that is that way I'm understanding that?

Yeah.

So those buttresses that are in the that were go up, up, up, up.

Yeah, keep going.

One more.

Thank you so much for doing all of this.

You have a you're doing such a great job.

So those buttresses are that brick was added.

And our contractor just took that off when he uh put the brick.

The brick that we put on the porch did not match this brick.

So it didn't match in texture, it didn't match in color, it didn't match at all.

So and in size, it didn't match in size either.

You can come up here, you don't have to.

And then painted all of it.

Let's see.

And then I think that that is all of the staff recommendations.

One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight.

Brad, did you want to come say a couple of things?

So name and address for the right.

Right, I mean I know 373 Burgess.

This house was a labor of love when we bought it, and we realized uh that uh we've changed it pretty drastically.

I think for the positive, and uh we did this in our 20s, and we weren't any the wiser, and uh, you know, like the windows we thought because they were vinyl, we have newer vinyl windows that you know we we replaced like for like.

There is one wood window I will mention that we have restored, it's the like the piano window, the small side window there, and then we also you know, with the the vinyl, we discovered there were um diamond windows, and we found these nifty porch columns.

So there are some things that are original on the house.

Um, you know, I would argue like a lot of this stuff, it's hard because this was 12 years ago, like quite frankly, I forgot the house was failing stucco underneath the vinyl until this was brought to our attention after the COA that you guys approved to do the East Edition, um, you know, which we kind of uh uh went back and forth with staff on a lot, and then to get this violation after we got the approval, it just feels a little out of order to be quite honest, um, because you know, we've been working on the addition project for a year, and you know, this is not your guys' baggage, but we planned on it a year prior to that, right?

And so to get all of these violations um sort of at the back end is is troublesome to us because we thought we'd done a great job to the house.

So, you know, our I guess you know, my feelings were a little bit hurt to see like all these violations when we've done everything that we can to try and protect the house and make it a better place, and I'll argue that like when we first bought the house 12 or 13 years ago, like it wasn't the neighborhood, is is drastically different, and I think part of it we're not the the uh the impetus, but I think we were a bellwether of like Irvington is growing and developing, so like we're basically here to ask you guys to give us uh uh this is an ask for forgiveness kind of uh thing.

Um with the new addition, we're going to be exting extensively beyond what the house value is worth, and um quite frankly, we'll probably be at the top end of the market, and that's not why we're doing this.

We're doing it because we love the house.

You know, our neighbors are grateful that we've done this stuff.

Um I'm grateful that I feel I again, like despite the violations, I feel like we've done history a good one on this one.

Um I I joked with my husband.

I was like the White House East Wing is being destroyed with no oversight, and here's our tiny little house with the most oversight in the world, right?

It just it seems kind of at odds with like what's what what should be happening, right?

Um it's a private residence, and we're gonna be good stewards of it.

Um, you know, for the the new addition, I can certainly understand because like I think in the the COA there's something about matching materials to the house.

If we have to do a few things that like uh the windows aren't identical or the soffits are exposed, we're fine to do that, but this is just kind of like beating the dead horse, really in my mind.

Like to reinvest in things that are perfectly usable seems wasteful.

Um, quite frankly to me.

I mean, could we do it?

Sure, but then it changes the addition you guys already approved, and um I'm gonna hold all you accountable too a little bit.

You all looked through this and didn't notice any violations of like what we've currently done, right?

Like uh, I guess it's like we're sort of all culpable, I guess, in my mind.

Um, but we did bring some people that wanted to say a couple of things, so we want to we don't have to take it all of the time.

Yeah, you've got time to do that.

Yeah, please.

Yeah, yeah, name and address, please.

Yeah, uh good evening, commissioners.

Uh my name is Andy Nielsen.

I serve as the uh city county counselor for district 14, uh, the lovely neighborhood of Irvington.

I am a resident of the historic district myself, um, and want to also thank staff um for their engagement uh to date with the with the petitioners and with the property owners and the architect and all involved.

I know this has been um uh an ongoing process, and I I'm here tonight to really just ask that within your all's authority um to provide authorizations and to keep this project moving forward, that we match both the intent of Ur Irvington's historic plan with the reality of where we are at.

Um and and again recognize that we have some, you know, we have property owners here who really want to make uh uh a substantial investment, and I think I've been working really really closely with staff and this commission to be able to um both both meet the needs and and some of the the concerns that have been brought up, but I just think that we're at a place where where the commission should really kind of see it as their Israel's authority to help this move forward so that uh the property owners here can continue their work.

You know, I I am concerned um that uh you know denial of this of some of these authorizations or kind of the in an ability to move forward won't just have an adverse impact on this property.

And I know that um this may be outside of the view of the commission.

I know that you are evaluating specific petitions on a case-by-case basis, but I think this is a really strong example of of you all being able to use your authority to keep this moving forward.

So um I'm happy to answer any questions.

I know I don't have the opportunity to speak before you all uh that often, but I do appreciate your consideration on this.

I would I would ask that we you know keep this moving, but also allow for these uh for these property owners to move forward.

So I thank you for your time.

Yeah, thank you, counselor, for your time.

Yeah, anyone else wishing to speak in support of the application.

Anyone wishing to speak in remonstrance to the application?

Okay, seeing none, uh ready for staff comment.

Shelby, please.

So since the violation has such a large scope, I figured first I'd just quickly list the items before you this evening, which the owner did pretty well, but I was go through real quick.

Um alter the or alter location of the opening, installed gutters and downspouts, boxed in soffits, chimney replacement and alteration, alterations to the front porch, replace windows, added corbals to the bay window, altered historic trim and decorative elements, as well as installed lap siding where there was stucco.

Um staff has provided recommended corrections for each item for what is appropriate in the Irvington district plan, and we're recommending this evening that the commission discuss the work as well as those recommendations to provide feedback to the owner.

Um any feedback on the windows and siding specifically would be really helpful.

Um as far as those would impact that addition that was approved later this year.

So just to give us some direction on that as well, would be appreciated, and I can answer any questions.

All right, Shelby, thank you.

Questions from the commission.

So who wants to ask some questions?

Sure.

It's all right, go ahead.

Yeah, sure.

Okay, it's fine.

Well, first of all, I just want to say that I think we all recognize that you've done a lot of work and that it is much better than when you found it.

So I don't want you to feel like that's not the case.

Um and I don't necessarily feel that a lot of the things are as um egregious as maybe uh they're made to sound in the uh report.

I I don't I I don't really have a problem with the chimney and uh you know the the gutters and uh even really the windows.

Um the one thing I will say that the the diamond shaped window on the front is a little it it kind of makes my eye twitch a little bit just because it's moved so far up, but uh uh and the other thing I just have a pet peeve with is pay painting brick, but I understand why you said you did it.

So um that those are really the thing I the fact that you put bit brick back where there was brick on the porch is should be you know actually noted and said you know uh to make sure that it went back to kind of where it was originally.

So I I mean there's some problems, but I think we've got to take the take it as a whole and and and look at the composition as a whole.

And like I said, the only thing that I I would really ask to be changed is that diamond window on the front.

It I'm not gonna get into the box office because that's a whole uh ball of wax that I think somebody else can address more competently than than I can, but uh those are my just initial comments.

Yeah, and I'll say for the window.

Uh oh, I'm sorry.

Uh I'll say for the window.

I mean, we probably like again, this is 12 years ago, so um our memory is probably fuzzy at best.

We came home and it was done, and it looked like sort of where it went.

Um you know, again, like, and it was much better than it was before, so you know we like it's a win.

Um yeah.

Okay.

All right.

Other comments from the commission?

Mike, please go ahead.

I agree with the diamond window.

I don't know how urgent it is.

I wouldn't put it at the front of the list because it's been there for a while, but I I do think it should match the other gables uh in the placement of the window.

Uh I might be in the minority, but I'm not too bothered by the uh brick porch.

Um I do think uh you know, losing the the sloping uh piers uh it's kind of a loss, but um I don't I think the uh the current iteration doesn't look too bad other than the paint on the mason.

Um the and the chimney uh doesn't bother me at all.

I'd probably change the hood to something that's not so conspicuous, but um, or the cap rather, but um I'm not too too offended by the uh the brick that was used, and I do recognize that this has been a passionate project for you, and you're not the um typical violator that we you know sometimes find trying to flip a house quickly with final windows and who knows what um and the fact that you're in this for the long haul probably uh helps the case a little bit.

Um we get there.

Okay, thanks, Mike.

Other comments?

David, please um I drove by today before the meeting.

Uh and uh of course it it's probably the in the best condition of anything around there.

I mean it it stands out as a very nice place.

Uming what I know about it, it's like you know, I can pick little things that aren't quite right, you know, it's like in the back of a children's magazine where they have a picture and they say, What's wrong with this picture or something?

And the first one thing that comes to mind, or the what this obvious is that diamond window.

Um it's just in the wrong place, and it looks like it.

So I think that needs to be at some point here changed, and that doesn't seem to me to be a major thing to do.

Um so I have a question for the staff.

When the removal of the aluminum or vinyl siding, whatever it was, that COA was it worded to remove it and replace it with new siding.

The reason I ask is that it oh whether or not I think that if we if we could dial back to 2012 and that that was the right decision, I is material at this point.

I can't do anything about it.

Okay, but if they did get approval to re side it, I think that you know for whatever reasons the stucco part missed.

I just pulled it up.

Um so the way that section of the COA is written, it says remove existing vinyl siding and repair and replace wood siding as needed.

Repair, trim, and paint exterior with Sherman Williams paint.

Okay.

Okay, in hindsight, it probably would have been better to say that we needed to inspect what was underneath and then decide.

Um I think that makes me a little more comfortable going along with leaving the siding and not requiring that it come off and be restuccoed and all of that.

Um I think it's understandable where somebody would think that they had the approval to put the siding on.

The windows, I have a hard time with the windows all the time.

I I think though I'd be thinking a little bit differently about this if it was uh if they had replaced the original windows, but I believe those were long gone, and the windows that were in there were clearly inappropriate windows.

Um I don't know, you know.

So I'm there's just some I'm also not as bothered by the porch.

Um, I know I have a question.

The corbals for the staff.

Is there a reason that we should doubt that those corbals were in that location?

We don't have any evidence that there was anything there.

So we don't know if they were there or if they were from something else or from a different property.

We don't have any evidence to support it.

I'd say that dimension is fairly serendipitous if that was just something that somebody found and put in the house.

I mean it's they fit perfectly.

So I when I drove by I looked at them and they seems they fit naturally.

Yeah, like you said.

Right.

Um I think uh if we were going back and I was a staff person and they said, Oh, we found these and we look, you know, I could probably go along with it.

So I don't have a problem with that either.

But those are my thoughts.

Okay.

Thanks, David.

Any other comments from the commission?

Yeah, I'll just offer mine.

I I think the the only thing that my mind needs to change is the diamond window in the front.

If we could get that to match the others, I think I think everything would be just fine.

Uh obviously this is you know 13 years ago or whatnot, and you know, it's it just seems like if we were gonna catch these things, we needed to have seen something, you know, at least 12 years ago or something.

Just seems like, you know, trying to solve all this now just seems uh a little late and a little challenging, and obviously you put a lot into this.

Um so I think if if we can I'm fine with the chimney, I'm fine with the porch.

I I think the only thing is just in whatever sequence as you're doing this addition, if you can move the diamond window down to match the other diamond windows in the house, I would be I'd be fine.

So any final comments from the applicant.

Yeah, so uh how would we address that?

Would that go on the previous COA like an addition, or how does that let the staff to answer that question?

Because like realistically, I I think we should uh or we should be allowed to fix it as we're demolishing and reconstructing the rest of the house.

Agreed.

Yeah, agree with that.

Yeah, so I I think it's just we'll let staff identify the recommendation, make sure you're comfortable with that, but I we're in agreement that it can be part of the whole thing that you're doing.

Okay.

Yeah, Meg go ahead.

Uh I just have a clarifying question.

So the vinyl windows that were installed have the between the grid, between the glass grids.

The applicant still needs to get signed off on their re new windows for the addition.

So that's kind of how this started.

So we're trying to figure out what we're doing.

I wouldn't match the I think you'd go to the proper grid approach on the new windows.

It'll look more or less the same.

I don't think you want to try to replicate a problem.

Okay.

Yeah, I just want I I asked that question so the applicant understands that what we'll probably be requiring then is for you to have what we call a simulated divided light window.

Sure.

Um so that's what we would be just for it is more expensive, just to fair war give you fair warning, but I just want to make sure you understand that we we do notice the distinct differences between those two, so I just wanted to make sure there was clarification on that for the edition.

Yeah, go ahead, David.

And just adding to that, then one would hope that someday it may be way, way down the road.

Right.

When uh those windows need to be replaced.

The match is the model of the new addition windows exactly.

Uh you don't have to do that now.

It's just yeah.

Yeah, and we've talked about that.

Um, you know, these windows, I mean some of them were four thousand dollars a piece because they're so big, right?

So going to a new window, great, uh after after they uh are no longer serviceable.

Right.

Um yeah, because we do watch, you know, we consider that as part of like annual maintenance kind of things, right?

Yeah.

Right.

Right.

Okay, Meg, I think we're ready for a staff recommendation.

Okay, if you could just give me a fine.

Yeah, I just want to clarify that I I think we're at that point.

Thank you.

If I could ask the applicant what a reasonable timeline might be to relocate that diamond window.

What do you yeah, when do you want to have that?

When are you finishing your addition?

Well, we were hoping to start this year, uh, but this is delayed things.

So uh we're breaking ground hopefully next spring.

Um it'll take you how long?

Probably a year.

Uh so it will happen within the twenty-six to early twenty-seven time frame.

I mean, so pick a month in early twenty-seven.

Yeah.

Just do it within the same time frame that you're doing the edition.

Sure.

Yeah.

And just for clarification, is the commission's uh recommendation for a certificate of authorization?

Yes.

Yeah.

One second just making sure I have it.

That's okay.

Yeah, that's fine.

I'm gonna get it right.

Okay, I think I got it.

I'm gonna read this, so yeah, you'll the applicant could just pay attention to this so you can make sure everything's okay here.

I'm gonna read this and then I'm gonna ask you if you are in agreement with uh what I'm writing here so that you we're all on the same page if that's okay.

The recommendation would read to approve a certificate of authorization for the following, and I'm gonna read through these.

Retain boxed soffits, gutters and downspouts, retain the newly constructed chimney, retain alterations to the front porch, retain replacement windows, retain corbels on west side bay window, retain siding, and return diamond window on north elevation to its historic location per this two stipulations and one note that I'll read.

Uh maybe just clarify that last part about like the siding.

So like if am I understanding like if we have to remove the sighting or if we have to I don't know, change it?

Like what I don't know.

Yeah, you'll have to repair the siding around once you take the window out, you'll move it down, and then you'll have to repair the siding around the window.

So we're it's like fish scale right now, so we're gonna need to put fish scale back.

Correct.

Is that that's correct?

Okay.

Yeah.

Got it.

And uh let me ask one clarification because if we have a a deadline by March first, um, we're already way behind in construction on other things in the house that don't need COA.

Um, so like can we have a there's an extension period if that is not completed, just we have extended things, you know, in the past with other applicants.

You can come back and say, hey, we need another month or whatever.

Okay, okay.

Yes, now just be mindful.

I I don't know if moving that window requires you to obtain a permit or notify permits of that modification, so just be mindful of that.

Okay.

To double check that.

And that's not like we I'm understanding like we can do this while we're working on the addition.

Correct.

That's correct.

Okay.

Yeah, this is a separate application, so we will Shelby will work with you on the COA for the edition, and then you can concurrently work with her on this also.

Okay.

Okay, so you want to read that recommendation then?

Yeah, go ahead.

Okay, yeah, that's fine.

Uh, and per the two stipulations and one note in the staff's recommendation.

All right, thank you, Meg.

Could I get a motion for the staff recommendation as read?

Annie, thank you.

Thank you, David, for the second.

Any final comments?

All those in favor, please signify by saying aye.

Any opposed, same sign?

Okay, thank you.

Thanks for watching.

Yep, thank you.

Any other business this evening, Meg?

The only thing I wanted to mention was that you should have an email with the 2026 work program.

If you could take some time to look at that, I am going to ask for your vote on that at the December hearing.

Okay.

All right.

No other business.

We stand adjourned.

Thank you all.