Okay.

Are we already?

Very quiet tonight.

All right.

I'd like to call to order the meeting of Lafayette Planning Commission for December 10th, 2025.

Can we have a roll call, please?

Yes.

Madam Chair Thomas.

Here.

Vice Chair Phillips.

Here.

Commissioner Hiergey.

Commissioner Mattler.

Yep.

Commissioner Watson.

Here.

Commissioner Wilson.

Here.

Thank you.

Are there any members of the public that wish to speak regarding items that are not scheduled for a public hearing this evening?

All right.

Seeing none.

Uh we'll move on to the next item on the agenda.

Approval of the meeting minutes for October twenty second, twenty twenty-five and November twelfth, twenty twenty-five meeting.

Do we have a motion?

Move to approve.

Second.

I will abstain since I was not here for the November twelfth meeting.

I know it was multiple errors on the further minutes for November twelfth.

Do we want to go through them and strike them and make the corrections or uh crashes?

Oh, they have all okay umended as an hour.

So um all right, motion uh we have a motion on the table.

All in favor.

All opposed.

One abstention, motion carries.

All right, next item on the agenda is um resolution number PC twenty twenty-five eleven recommending approval with a condition.

Uh site plan and structural review and planned unit development for lots one, two, and three, block three, off the town site, Red Queen edition, one twenty-nine North Harrison.

There were two sets of minutes.

There were both of them.

I just abstained from both of them.

Um be deciding whether the application should be approved, approved approved with conditions or denied.

Um Commission will consider the record, which includes city planning staff support, presentations by the applicant and the city's planning staff, and any public comment received during the hearing.

Commission will evaluate this proposal based solely upon the record and the applicable criteria established under the municipal code, which are highlighted in the staff report.

It's important that each commission member remain objective and capable of considering information offered into the record.

Does any commission member have a conflict of interest or any other matter here or she would like to disclose part of the proceeding?

All right, Commission will now hear from city planning staff.

Good evening, Chair, Commissioners.

Uh, we are here for resolution PC 2025-1.1.

It's the Red Queen Edition Site Plan and Architectural Review and Plan Unit Development.

The order of presentation here, we'll do I'll do a brief introduction followed by the applicant's presentation, and then I'll do an analysis.

And then we switched up here.

I believe it matches your script, though, questions of applicant and staff, then the public hearing, discussion, and a motion.

So as I'm sure everybody knows, Red Queen is at the southwest corner of East Geneseo Street and North Harrison Avenue.

Consists of three buildings, uh three existing buildings and an accessory building on a 21,000 square foot property.

It's comprised of uh three individual lots.

It is zone community business or B1, and the proposal is for a 1,604 square foot addition.

It's a two-story addition, and there are a variety of kind of miscellaneous site improvements that I'll go over through the through the presentation.

The PUD modification is simply to reduce the setback off the northern property line to 1.5 feet.

There is debate in the office on what the actual setback should be.

So we're just keeping it uh reducing it to 1.5, whether or not it's a front or a street size, but we won't get into that.

Um there was a parking reduction that was approved by city council.

It waived any parking for the addition and it allowed the elimination of the three spaces uh that are roughly kind of under the proposed edition.

This was done at their August 19th, 2025 meeting.

The buildings, as I've kind of highlighted here, uh the building that houses the Red Queen was the at least what I believe is the original portion of the building was built in 1908.

I'm not sure about the what I believe is the addition here, and then the other buildings 1945, uh both of both of these, and uh I don't have any information on the on the outbuilding.

So here's just uh a plan of the existing conditions.

Something to notice on the northern setback.

The western building is on the property line.

The kind of what I'm calling the the previous addition to the Red Queen building is also on the property line, uh, and this is about a foot off uh the kind of original building.

Actually, I I take that back.

I believe the the I uh the improvement location certificate states this is about a half inch off of the property line.

Kind of the landscape area that is referenced in the staff report that goes away, is kind of this little area in front of the parking and kind of to the side of this one.

These are the three parking spaces in question that will be eliminated to accommodate the addition, and then just kind of take note of the existing trap a recycling area and air conditioner here and the trash area here, which just consists of a of a dumpster without an enclosure.

The site plan, I'm gonna kind of uh be brief here.

There's not a ton of stuff to discuss, so I don't want to I don't want to take all the thunder from the applicant, I want to leave them some some items to talk about.

So I won't really speak to architecture.

I'll just kind of talk a little bit about the site layout, and I can speak to uh architecture other items in the analysis if necessary.

So we have the addition here off the west side of the existing building.

Uh we have an uh kind of a pedestrian walkway comprised of semi-porous pavers, arbors with a vine, and then some outdoor seating up against the building.

Then we have this existing air conditioning unit and recycling area, does get a six-foot-tall enclosure.

Same with the trash area over here.

We've have, I think, five bike racks kind of scattered throughout the site, a couple here, one here, a couple more down here, and then also uh public works is always very concerned about runoff and drainage in old town area.

So to kind of offset the uh purbusness here, this little area of the parking lot was the asphalt is proposed to be removed, and then for it to be uh pervious pavement, so to kind of try to offset that additional imperviousness created by the building.

So the process and applications, since this is in the uh Lafayette Urban Renewal Authority, they are the first review body, they approved it with conditions stated in the staff report, and then PC becomes the decision-making body for the site plan and architectural review.

That is the same process with the planned unit development.

So planning commission is the decision-making body for both applications tonight, and then as I stated previously, there was a parking reduction that was approved by city council.

That's all for me.

I'll turn it over to the applicant and then I'll come back up for the analysis.

Hi.

I think I've met all of you at the working group meeting.

So I'm the architectural designer for the Red Queen.

And I'm here to speak on the design parameters and responses for this edition.

As many of you know, the Red Queen has become a beloved fixture of the old town business district.

It opened its doors in 1999 after a major rehab of the structure at the northeast corner of Harrison and Geneseo in the lumber yards complex.

I believe what they did at that time was they did some major foundation work to the rear because that portion was basically sitting on dirt, and they had to do some major steel additions to hold up the roof in the front section.

So they did quite a bit of structural remediation there.

When I was brought into this project, they were literally bursting at the seams.

They had leased additional space in the complex for storage and for small space for private events.

That is to the space at the west.

See that be the northwest corner.

And they also leased the center building for retail, additional retail space.

The primary design objective was more space, a minimum of 2400 square feet of finished and unfinished space.

The functions needed in this space would be expanded retail, more seating, backstock storage, a second restroom, space for events such as book group meetings and author appearances, streamlining the coffee bar, a second point of sale, a designated delivery location, and a mechanical upgrade.

The response to these parameters was to maximize the building footprint with a full basement.

The mezzanine level was added to let's see.

I can go the mezzanine level was added to uh create a slightly separate space that could be used for small semi-private gatherings.

Um they envision like being able to move uh the retail like pods where they have books, they can slide them away, and they can create a nook in the back there where they can have uh book groups come in and they discuss their books.

They have private book groups, or they have an author come in that would give a talk and do a signing, that type of thing, and then they can move the these floating pods of book books back into the space, and they can also have um you know nooks where there's chairs around and surrounded by all of the books.

Great.

Um the space is all also would have a long work bar, and that's basically what that you see on the uh pointer, the long edge next to the stairs where people can come and plug in their computers.

They have a laser build um the existing building will be left unchanged, but for the west wall where the two buildings connect, and this will keep any material removal to a minimum and will maintain the visual integrity of the old building.

Would you be able, sorry to interrupt Linda?

Would you be able to use your mouse to kind of what you're sure?

Yeah, go back to the mezzanine part.

Yes, that would be great.

Yeah, so so this is this is the mezzanine right here, and the larger section, so you can see where you could have set up chairs and have a uh author at one end or surrounded by people as they spoke, and still be able to have um activity, you know, sales activity on the first floor.

And then this lot this is the section of basically a work bar, you know, 18 inches, but with a continued power strip.

You know how people like to go to the coffee shops and park there for hours and hours, and and when you have limited seating, like they do where the coffee section is, and those people take up space where they might have like three people move there through there in the time that one person is sitting there.

So I think that's a big plus for that area, and also the mezzanine um space, the the vision of it was like old-world bookstores that you would see in the in you know Europe, even you know, where you walk in and then you're just surrounded by books, and you look up, and there's more books, and they're all in a row, and there's library ladders, and just that feeling is what they're trying to achieve in this space.

So again, the existing building was left unchanged.

The the portion that will be opened, this is right here where the new intersects the old, and it will just be the wall opened in that portion because of the site and code constraints.

There is a 10-foot space, and that is in this area right here.

Um with that we wanted just to create a transition between the street, and also kind of a nice area for seating, additional outdoor seating.

So this these are you can see from the picture.

This is kind of the vision that we have, although the the plantings at the base would not be big beds like that, but they would be pods around the base of the posts, and then in between there could be like two top tables.

Um, this space is being treated as entrance to the complex and a space for outdoor seating.

The arbor and plantings will eventually climb around and will be an inviting transition into the complex.

The buildings roof lines are a nod to the existing structure and also the surrounding buildings that were once used as lumber storage and sales while also responding to the space inside.

The north wall of storefront glass, which is this right here, will act as a beacon to persons traveling on East Genesio and also on public road.

It's if you're traveling south on public road and you look to your left.

This area is very visible because the building is so low in front, and then you also have that big the parking lot further west of the building.

So you will definitely be able to see the glass wall there.

So we're hoping that it it will be very visible, especially at night when the lights, interior lights are shining through.

The facade will also provide a second entrance that will be uh this what you see right here.

The west wall will stand above the buildings below and also provide a sight line from public road.

These two visible elements will hopefully pull people down into the complex and to other things happening off of the main throughway.

The minimal penetration on the south and west sides is an attempt at keeping harmful UV light from entering it into the space.

They have amazingly, even the windows underneath the east covered porch, windows on under the south covered porch.

If they put anything in those windows, it fades immediately.

So books, any product that they want to sell can't be displayed there.

So the UV light is a very big issue for them.

So we also obviously don't want a totally blank wall.

Um the windows in the west gable will act as small light vocals, and at night can be backlit to create small circles of light pointing out from this facade.

The windows on the south side are located in areas where they will not throw light onto book displays.

They are um the these two windows are next to the stairwell going down and the stairwell going up.

These two at the very top will have to be coated glass for sure, but um should provide some sunlight, but not a major source.

We've broken the walls into two sections, the or being covered in siding that matches the existing structure.

This right here, so it will flow through as it wraps around, and the upper section will have vertical siding painted in a rich iron red.

On the north entry facade, we have incorporated a galvanized metal fascia band reminiscent of old shop storefronts.

The Red Queen signage can be would or can be placed there.

The roof over the edition will be structured for future solar panels as the owners are committed to providing an energy efficient building.

The new mechanical system, although it has not been addressed at this point, will also be as energy efficient as feasible.

The owners of the Red Queen are very excited about what this addition can provide for them in the next phase of their business.

They believe that it will allow them to stay in this part of the community and continue to add to the richness of old town.

That's it.

Thank you.

All right.

So much like the staff report, rather than go through each criteria or criterion individually.

We've kind of lumped them together into these five categories architecture, landscaping, circulation, screening, and lighting.

So I'll go through each one of those briefly, and uh we can answer any questions you may have.

So architecture, a lot of the language deals with scale and proportion, character and compatibility, visual interest, and durability.

Proposed uh material, it's uh wood siding on the ground floor with a uh uh cementatious uh secondary second story panels.

It's uh state in the staff report.

We feel it's in scale and proportion uh with not only the site but the surrounding area, and I think the applicant kind of speak to how it was kind of in the same character as the as the rest of the development.

And uh I think there's plenty of visual interest, especially on the northern facade with the with the new windows, and I uh I think also the fact that they kind of are transitioning from the existing building as you can see in this picture kind of has a has a vertical siding element, and whereas the ground floor on the addition will have a horizontal with the vertical on topic and it being two-story and kind of different color clearly uh distinguishes itself from the existing building, which I guess I is a positive design characteristic.

Sorry, uh and this is just another view from the other side from the other uh side of the building showing kind of the elevations here.

Actually, I want to point out too you know, the existing building, uh, this side has you know no windows on the original part of it.

So I do believe that as I stated in the staff report that the kind of smaller windows on the addition other than the northern facade is kind of in character with historic buildings that had a much uh higher solid to void ratio.

So I think that that does work.

Uh landscaping, it talks about function use of open areas, buffering, and enhancement of the project.

Well, I don't think this landscaping really does any buffering, all the kind of perimeter street uh street trees and landscaping around the perimeter is staying intact.

That kind of serves as the buffer.

However, I do think uh the kind of small pass-through uh landscape area with the path uh is actually much more functional than the old one.

I do think it it's nice that it creates a more direct access point for our for pedestrians coming from public, uh, so they don't have to walk all the way down around the building to access the other businesses that are kind of internal to the site, and I do think it is an enhancement uh over the pre over the existing landscaping.

And here we just have kind of showing you a blown-up version of of that landscape area versus kind of the idea of what they're proposing in this area here.

So this the criteria also speak to circulation both from a pedestrian and vehicular standpoint.

Really, uh this is all remaining for the most part the same.

As stated, they did add this little formal pedestrian pass-through, whereas before I mean people cut across there, but it wasn't really a formal connection, and then another thing I forgot to mention earlier is they are adding an ADA space with striping to from the center of the parking lot to the Red Queen entrance.

So that's also kind of a circulation adjacent improvement that they're that they're making.

Other than that, the vehicular circulation stays really the same, and there really are no no other changes to pedestrian circulation on the site.

So screening uh that criteria talks about what is required to be screened, and that the screening must be compatible with the building.

This is uh off the elevations.

This is showing that they're kind of using the same material as the addition for the new screening of the existing AC unit and the recycling area, and then again, they will be doing six-foot-tall screen uh screen and enclosure down here where currently it's just a dumpster sitting next to the alley.

And then the lighting criteria just talks about it being compatible with the building and minimizing impact on adjacent properties.

This is just a screenshot of the gooseneck light that they're using that is full cutoff and will be directing light back towards a building.

So uh it I do believe is compatible with the building and and it will minimize the impact on the JSON properties.

So that staff finds that it meets the criteria, uh, but we're happy.

I'm happy to answer any questions.

Okay, we'll now have um public comment.

Um at this time we'll hear from any interested members of the public who wish to address commission about this application.

Um, we've got one speaker formed.

Do I have anyone else who would like to address the commission?

If not, um, Ron Spaulding, please come to the podium and stick your name and address for the record.

Good evening, Chair and Planning Commissioner, Franz Boding, 1326 Rodeway Lafayette, Colorado.

First of all, I would like to say congratulations to Bill Watson for his reappointment to the planning commission.

And I hope the next one is gonna be just as good as Bill.

So that's uh kudos to Mr.

Watson.

I'm gonna be brief.

I personally support the PUD and SPAR development proposal.

As stated in the application, expansion is needed to accommodate the customers' displays and storage.

The current space is maxed out.

Uh I'm a visitor of the Red Queen.

Maybe not regular every week, but come to know it and its people, and uh it's quite a special spot.

The Red Queen is an anchor in the Lumberyard development, along with its gift shop and Queen Lounge.

I'm assuming or presuming that many of you have been there, I may be wrong, but you know it's very very active, and uh can't find a place to sit, and uh we want more customers to keep coming in.

Uh, one of the things I just want to mention, which you're all probably knew about, that there's plenty of parking for any overflow at the old town public parking lot at the southeast corner of public road and east Geneseo Street, which right which is right adjacent to the Red Queen with approximately 40 spaces.

Also, parking is allowed along both sides of Doneseo Street with approximately 15 spaces.

Uh the area, this area, along with these Simpson Coffee, the Well Children Museum, and the Lafayette History Museum is a very active destination point for visitors to Lafayette, as you probably all will know.

It's very reassuring to a citizen, one who loves Lafayette to see the existing business thriving and expanding.

And with the recently new additions of the ombre yards, they're Craft Place, which is pretty sharp.

As a customer, I strongly support your approval for this expansion.

Uh I think the architect engineer has done an outstanding job and looking at all the needs for this building.

It's a it's a very unique structure.

The whole area is just uh superb.

So I want to thank you for your consideration.

Thank you.

All right, if there is no further public comment, um public hearing is now closed.

At this time, we will hear questions for staff or the applicant.

Um would anyone like to start with questions?

Okay.

Um I just love to spend a little more time on this little walkway area.

Um it looks can can you is there anything you could show us that would give us a sense of how much that feels like you're in a little tight and closed space?

I don't think we're gonna have anything that's really gonna get you what you need.

Like a how tall is the other.

I'm trying to picture how deep you feel in the little space there.

Yeah.

I mean, the best maybe is just to go to that's of course the tree's gonna be right in our way.

Yeah, we don't have like a kind of a perspective that that shows exactly what that's gonna look like.

Um I can say that from like a uh pedestrian path perspective, you know.

We always like to see at least 10 feet between like two six-foot privacy fences.

These are gonna be a little taller buildings.

It is a shorter, shorter distance than a lot of kind of cut-throughs you'll get that'll go all the way along two lots where they have a six-foot to get me from like a cul-de-sac to a park or something.

You know, a lot of those that were built in the 70s and 80s were really narrow.

Um but there is some lighting on the on the addition to in that area.

I can speak to that, but yeah, don't have much else for you.

And is there is there a vision that that that's a bikeable pathway as well?

You know, there's gonna be bike racks right in this little nook here.

I would like to think that people would probably you know what we would get off and at least walk the bike through there.

It's gonna be kind of tight, and and if there's anybody coming the other direction, it'd be there'd be a conflict.

So I don't think it's envisioned for bikes in that manner.

And the seating on the that's the tables that are proposed on the west side there.

Yeah.

That would shrink that 10 foot space.

It would shrink the the like the walking area, but the arbors are gonna be less, they're not gonna be 10 feet wide either.

So but yeah, there those those are the little two tops in there would like shrink the width, but I don't think it'll shrink like the perceived width when you're in there because from above the you know, tables and seating height, people will still feel that full width.

Got it.

Thank you.

And yeah.

This is sort of speculation, but if you're raised from your experience, would people want to sit there?

It's gonna be on the west side, you know.

I thought some about that.

I mean, it it's you know, it's gonna have southern exposure for some part of the day, but it's also gonna provide for shade for a lot of the day.

And you know, getting getting in my experience, getting vines to grow well in Colorado can be a challenge, but if they can get those to grow after a few years, it could be pretty cool to see and have those grow up over that.

Uh and I think it would be kind of a kind of a a cool area to sit.

Um but it'll be interesting to find out if it's approved.

Um thanks to it.

I won't let the applicant add anything if they if they would like to, just in case there's something I'm missing.

Okay.

Um I mean it will be we called out uh semi-pervious papers.

So if somebody wanted to ride their bike through there, they would be able to use them.

I would hope that they re dismount.

Yeah.

Okay, thank you.

And then um switching to the non-irrigated pervious hardscape down on the other side.

I I think is that where they park the barbecue stuff?

Yeah.

And is that how would this would that remain just on gravel or something?

Or what is it?

Well, the the shed roof that kind of is hangs off that existing building is going away with this.

I I can't speak to the barbecue actual the smoker, because it's uh I believe it's I just looked at it the other day.

I believe it's on wheels, right?

It's movable.

Yeah.

So I don't know if the plan is to put it out there versus uh to put it in the shed.

Is there any thoughts on that?

Can you speak to that, Kurt?

Yeah, um my current wending, uh a wife Mary Pat and I own the property.

And the the barbecue is gonna be leaving.

Well, so that's just a temporary thing.

It may be pulled out already.

I wanted by there today, but yeah, that won't be there next year.

It's envisioned as like gravel or something in that space.

I think it's just a pervious pavement, I think.

Uh I don't know that we've gotten that far.

That was just kind of public works wanted to make sure there was kind of a one-to-one trade-off there.

And since that's not really used as a parking space, uh it kind of was the area that was identified and not having some other impact on on the site.

I believe uh Khalida Grill did something similar, but I think there's just gravel, if I remember correctly.

So do you have a you have feelings on that one way or another?

No, I'm trying to visualize what it's gonna look like if that's I mean gravel would probably be smarter because in my experience, like pervious pavement kind of starts to fill up and then not become so pervious.

So it will clearly not be a parking space.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Um I'm curious about the area just south of the addition.

Um, what's going to be the kind of the buffer between the the parking area?

Um right now you pull right into parking that will go away.

Um but I'm just curious what keeps is is that intended to be a new front door?

It's a service.

It's a service door, it's a service door only, and that's something we have identified as one of the comments that we're still working through with them in terms of uh, you know, if it's not a mandatory, you know, egress door, can we get it to swing inward?

Uh is there uh some other treatments if it's only a service door and it's only used once in a while when it's gonna be used, there's gonna be you know, a vehicle of offloading uh equipment.

Is it is it that big of a deal?

But that is something that and like kind of the the gooseneck light projecting out into that area too, have both been identified as something that we do have concerns about that we want to try to get a resolution to, and we're open to any suggestions.

I'm curious, and this might be a question more for the applicant.

Would you be open to having a uh landscape buffer area along that south side of the building?

Is there a reason that you know maybe the only problem is we're like we're kind of we already have a non-conforming dry vial width throughout this site.

I see.

So we may just think that's what I needed to know.

Like what are we why aren't we doing that?

Okay.

Um I mean it it it wouldn't concern me to not have like bollards there or something to protect the building.

Yeah, one of the things Laura mentioned too is uh in their condition about that kind of building expanse is maybe putting some public art.

So in my mind, maybe there could be like an art piece that kind of functions as both, maybe somehow in that area.

Uh but with those are kind of gonna be ongoing discussions as we finalize the comments.

Is that door glass or is it going to be a solid?

I believe it's solid, right?

Okay, the uh yeah, if it is glass, then disappears.

Yeah, I'm gonna want to go in and perhaps are we have to be signed if that would say this is not an entrance.

Okay.

But they at this point in time, all their deliveries are made through their main entrance.

So we're trying to avoid that.

I see you're trying to have a back to the stairs and the little dumb waiver that would go to the basement or all of their backstocks.

I see.

Okay.

Other questions for staff on the FIFA.

Go ahead.

Um, Jacob, I guess statement in there, the proposed landscaping is non-conforming.

While the proposed landscaping is it is not more non-conforming than the existing landscape.

Correct.

Do we have some kind of scale of landscaping nonconformance of what is more or less conforming?

Yes, it really comes down to area and number of plants.

Unfortunately, whether or not it was done with uh with any sort of official approvals, they have five ornamental grasses planted in that area, and they're gonna have five vines planted, so we're not becoming non-conforming in terms of number of plants and the area.

It's a little different because that's fully impervious area, but we're just counting you can count hardscape area as a landscape area.

So we're kind of counting that entire 10 foot pathway through, and it it doesn't become non-conforming based on all of my calculations.

The other thing we do have a little wiggle room, the the landscape section does give the director the ability to allow for slight modifications to landscape standards.

So while I think it was identified as including it in the PUD early on, uh when I kind of took the case over and and did it, I I didn't think it was necessary to include that in the PUD, given that it's it's in my opinion not becoming more non-conforming, and so that's that's there.

But if you feel like you want to add it to the PUD and say, you know, it's uh we're including the landscaping as proposed is is approved per the PUD, you're more than welcome to add that into the PUD.

Can you bring up uh the drawing?

Well, yeah, the one shows the uh area that's going to be changed.

That's non-pervious, so we can see that hatched or whatever.

I think I had it down here.

The the part where you kind of zoomed in on it.

Oops, I have the sorry, I'm I'm not in the presentation anymore.

I'm in the plans.

Let's go here.

Yeah, but yeah, there it is.

Okay, so I guess I'm gonna try to understand is you're tearing up something on the other side of the property.

So this area is right here.

No, I'm saying the one on the bottom right there.

Yeah.

You now you're tearing that up to be replaced with something that's semi-permeable.

Yeah, and this this isn't necessarily in the landscape area calculations.

It's really just this area here.

No, but I meant for drainage.

Yeah, for drainage.

Sorry, too fast for me.

Okay, yes.

Um I guess I'm I'm not quite understanding how that helps because it's on the other side of the parking lot.

It's down slope of it though.

I mean, it's a little bit that's my understanding.

That's my understanding is it was it was also I kind of it's not meant to be like a rain garden or anything like that, and it's not meant to funnel everything.

It's just meant to make sure that net stormwater leaving the property in its existing state and its proposed state doesn't change.

Uh so that was identified as a spot that would work, it would capture, I do believe, some of the natural flows do go that way.

So it's kind of believed that it would capture some natural flows, and then it's also just the water that falls on that is approximately similar to to what was pulled out.

So I mean public works look at that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was all public work, yes.

Bless that, okay.

Um and then I guess the last thing I have is I'm trying to understand how this works here.

Laura has approved it with a condition.

But I so, but I don't see that condition on any of our stuff.

So is how does is that still a condition that has to be resolved?

It's it is a it is in your in the in the staff report kind of towards the end of it, and it talks about yes, and they left a lot of wiggle room.

It doesn't need to be resolved, but it talks about the southern facade and wanting to break that up a little bit more with some more visual interest.

They didn't say more transparency, they said visual interest, and they mentioned potentially art and uh left it open as and to as to how that gets done.

Okay, but in the screening of things, though, that's something when this is completed, you will look at that condition and say they have or they have not.

Yes, we will be enforced.

It will be in the on the final plans and it'll be blessed by Lura.

Okay, yeah.

Perfect.

Thank you.

Yes.

Were there any issues brought up by um for life safety by the fire department?

You mentioned the narrow drive lanes.

Um I'm guessing that's not being made worse here either.

Correct.

Yeah.

An analysis of it.

Yes, I I took this one over.

Uh but I in going through the files, I saw no concerns from fire whatsoever.

Uh I mean they can access the north side of the building.

Yeah, there's access from there, and then the the access to the site really isn't changing at all.

So and they can't access, you know, they can pretty much access the entire area from different spots, right?

There's a parking lot on this side here of this building.

You have the alley to the south, so there's kind of a variety of ways to get access to it.

But they they will uh they will review the the hopefully the final iteration of this, and they will also be reviewing the building permit too.

So um I think I have a few more questions about that arbor.

So I'm looking at the plan, and there's a solid wall on both sides of it.

So if you're a customer or a person want to read something, go outside, sorry, a way to get through from the actual building, you have to walk all the way outside to go back out into the arbor.

Yeah, there's no there's no proposed door to that area.

So it'd be going through the front door would be the close, the new front door to the north would be the closest point of access.

Right.

So I I think I'm I'm slightly puzzled is that you're gonna park your bike, and then you have to go in to go back out again.

So I'm just trying to figure out how what the what the barber is for.

If it's just just a break, right?

That's all it is.

It's nothing that really serves much as far as it separates the two existing and the new buildings.

But I'm just I'm I'm questioning what's need for because it's not going anywhere.

Like if you're gonna park your bike or walk out into the parking lot, okay, but it's just there.

Are we talking about the like the arbors specific like the actual arbor features specifically or the use of it?

The use of it will be a little bit cumbersome based on the fact that you're wanting to be outside and yet there's no pass through on one side of the building that you're proposing, it's just a blank wall.

Yeah, I I can let the applicant speak to that a little bit.

To me, what the the benefit I see to that area is that it allows people that are walking from that are drawn there from public to come down and to access the the businesses inside without having to go all the way down to the end of the block, walk around Red Queen, then walk back up through a parking lot to get to like the new crafting and crafting and cocktails place or something along.

So I see it as more functional in that respect.

I think I kind of the way I view it again is that the seating is kind of this benefit aside factor, but it's really about more direct connectivity.

But to something else that I'm not seeing on the plan.

Yeah, well, to like if you want to go to the new business here, what is it called again?

Track place, yeah.

And you're walking and you're walking from public, you come down, you turn on Geneseo, and then you come through here to get to their front door, which is here, rather than having to go all the way down.

It's an invitation to pedestrians to come down.

It keeps the best friends from having to navigate a uh a yeah uh parking lot.

A clear parking lot, a frustrating parking lot.

So I I get that, but I I wish there was something on the plan that may said that because right now I'm looking at that blank um box, and there's no context around it for me to understand.

I understand why you would want to put it in there because there's a destination on the other side, which is easier to access once you go through that street.

Okay, I get that.

Yeah, and it's kind of a fire, you know, a building code requirement to the colour.

Building code requirements.

A number of things, and sure, you know, like um, but I still have the question for it's attached to the Reed Queen as far as its program is concerned.

Right.

Thank you for hearing us all, but these are really relevant questions.

Um I think this is a this is a point where we need to remember that this is uh the lumber yards, and it's got how many businesses in the Lumber?

Seven, eight, four the potential for I think nine, but we take up three.

Excuse me, I'm could you for the record say who you are?

Oh, I'm so sorry.

I am Barbara Hunting.

I am one of the owners of the Red Queen, and um so um because this is uh an entrance to a um a shopping mall, if you want to call it that.

Um there's so many other businesses that would benefit from this that making it a a welcoming entrance would be beneficial for everyone on the other side.

If you're on Geneseo and you're walking by and you say, where does that go?

It doesn't just go to the Red Queen.

It goes to a lot of other businesses that that are right now thriving, and I believe would thrive more.

Um and so that's that I is what it's trying to pretty up the fire code that we have to be that far away from the other building.

And to right now, it's a very sun-baked area.

If you're on Genesis, or you walk across sun-baked everything to get into a parking lot with lots of other businesses, and I think this would just be more inviting and just more artistic and it just a more welcoming look in its in its whole function.

So thank you so much for listening.

Sure, thank you.

Um so I also wanted to just ask the question about I think the um that presentation by the applicant made that the existing condition was something that they were calling out as wrapping around the new, like they were gonna put it together, and then the upper top one was different.

But then I saw the vertical siding, and I go, how is that work?

If the vertical siding is at the bottom and you have horizontal.

Yeah, go ahead and come up to them on the new up to the sodium just so we can the question I have is that I completely understand when you say you want to call that building out as something that's unique and it's like an addition, it's like you're gonna paint the entire thing fire engine red or no, no, the the just the top.

Bottom band would be stained the color of the existing building.

The red would only occur above.

So and for Rasu, it's also I mean, we are gonna have to go.

I don't know, we have to go in front of historic board, but we'll have to get a demo permit, and then they have their criteria of wanting new additions to historic buildings to look significantly different.

They don't want to make it matchy matchy, so that's also part of it why the sidings were cheated that so what is the what is the condition of the existing siding on the south side?

Is it also vertical or is it horizontal?

Yeah, it's vertical.

Okay.

So yeah, short vertical, it's only you know, because it's the confusion for me is that if you are gonna match that kind of band that goes around, then the horizontal doesn't quite do that.

It breaks it right there, which is fine.

I mean, if that's your intention, and then the question would be why would you then not carry that up?

Because it would then read as in addition, that is the whole addition rather than this break.

You're calling it so you're saying go see.

It's a question it it's just a question like so.

You're saying that you would have is it one word to the sorry.

The other where's the other elevation?

This one.

So you're saying that you are wondering why the matching the existing siding or direction from top to bottom?

Yeah, the the bottom band where you've got the floor line up there, there's a there's a floor line that's sort of calling out there's a top piece bottom piece, right?

But the existing building has a vertical siding, right?

Right.

So if you're going to suggest that there's continuity, then your new building would have vertical siding on it at the bottom to kind of.

Yeah, I mean, I think the continuity will be in the material and the color.

Oh, I just can I just walk over here.

Um and then because this is such a break here.

I mean, this is gonna be I think that it I think that change works for well for me it works.

So I'm just gonna I'm gonna ask about the Lura, you know, condition on the south side, which is the other end.

Um that it has to do with how you treat that siding.

Because if you treat it as like a break, then that graffiti or whatever that mural is gonna be, or whatever that art piece is gonna be, is gonna have to deal with that break.

Yeah, I mean that has to be tested.

I mean, this is something that I just heard about.

Where's the edge where you're not breaking where this doesn't come around like that?

If you just have it as one thing that allows it to be a canvas, then for that piece of art or whatever it is.

So I I'm gonna I'm gonna encourage like just thinking about like a little more about that continuity.

What does that really mean?

And if you are going to call this out as I mean, I love this barn aesthetic.

It's very it's got proportions that are just fabulous, nobody ever does that anymore.

So I really like that.

It's really attractive, but especially because you're in a lumber yard type of situation, right?

So I'm I'm I'm just wanting to strengthen your strengthen the idea that this is a really unique piece, it's some mezzanine on top of that.

You've got a downstairs, and and so I'm I'm I'm struggling to to sort of say why would you break it and not call it out as that's it.

It's a big, it's like that edition.

That's the addition, and it's well, why don't you make it all red?

I know that whole story may have I guess I was worried about vertical siding on a two-story face, and all it was just two and you'll have to have a way to break that.

You'll have to have flashing in there no matter what.

So you can't it won't be able to get a piece that long.

You know, you're not gonna do that, but I think it's about you know you I'm not going to I'm I'm asking the question only because you I know you're smart enough to understand how a detail could work.

So you can do it.

So I'm just saying that there's an opportunity here for something more simple and yet more powerful, because then it becomes like, oh, that's their addition.

You can see that a mile away, right?

Yeah, right.

And and if we do go the route of an art piece, it would make it easier if that, like you said, is a continuous sheet, essentially.

A canvas of turn, yeah.

To be clear, I the way I understood Laura's conditions as it only applying to the addition.

Correct.

Okay, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't sure.

That's right.

Okay.

Yeah, that's correct.

Uh Michel Watson.

Oh, thank you.

Um I'm just wondering, has anybody thought about putting an awning over the doorway on the north side of the building?

Yes, you have the double doors next to the back.

They're actually recessed.

Oh.

What's recessed?

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay, I was looking at the design, it almost looked like the wall was recessed to the door.

So you can see.

Oh well.

You are so bad, Jake.

This recess 18 inches so that when the door swings out, it does not encroach onto the side of the room.

Correct, an awning.

So that it has ceiling above that.

Inside or to the outside to the north side of the building.

Well, the the ceiling goes across here, even with the wall.

That will go across your head if you're standing at the door and you're getting ready to go, you will be covered.

Okay.

I just wonder because you know how it is.

Yeah, yeah.

North, north never melts.

Melts.

And I'm just I'm just thinking about that.

Okay, so you guys are addressing that.

And another thing too, this uh this dragon on an awning.

I'm I'm the same way.

I understand 10 feet, but I have a hard time understanding tables and chairs.

And oh, by the way, we're gonna walk through there and yes, you can push a bike.

I I don't see that.

I think it's a little bit too tight.

What's the current width of the porch on the on the south side?

I believe that's that has two toppers on it, and I believe that's significantly less than 10 feet width, right?

So I mean it's kind of already functioning that way on their existing porch.

So it's not gonna be, you know, you're not gonna necessarily walk side by side.

So you can handle something.

Those are five foot tables for scale.

That's 10 feet too.

This is a smaller table.

Yeah, and then a two-top cafe style is only 18 inches in diameter in this.

That's a big 10 feet.

About that size, also.

Just curious.

It's I mean, it's it'll be fun to see.

It's yeah, I mean, it it is what it is, the 10 feet.

Yeah, and we're just trying to make, you know, it's like your footprint is how fear is that.

The travel width is more like six feet.

That's like a typical sidewalk.

Yeah, five to six feet.

Yeah.

Is there a height limitation on that roof?

Because it's going above the 24 based on the correct.

Uh well, it's it falls within the maximum height even at the at the peak, but the way we measure building height is to the midpoint.

Oh, basically.

So that is, yep, yep.

So that is uh it it definitely complies.

Okay.

Okay.

There's a small note on one of the sheets that talks about a two percent arrow northbound through that space.

Is that saying that there's a two percent grade downhill towards Genesio?

Or so okay, so anything around that on the permal papers draining north, anything that's running off the semi-porous.

Yeah, okay.

Any other questions for staff of the applicant?

Um so I I don't see any currently there are no charging stations in the parking lot.

Correct.

Correct.

And this edition then doesn't create any or invoke any code requirements for correct.

The way the parking UV parking language is written, it's just tied to the expansion of parking areas, not expansion of buildings.

Okay, interesting.

And the uh the applicant said the word solar, so perhaps they can speak more to that.

They can I would assume, or if you can by all means.

You know what?

That was a question I wanted to ask the building official before we left today, and I and I failed.

So uh failed.

I was asking I was I was curious to see how this is treated.

Is it treated the same as an actual new building where they have to have that 40% capable or 40% ready requirement versus and I wasn't able to get that, but I can let the applicant speak to uh like proposed solar, but uh yeah, I believe that's how the new code reads they they're the ones in the new roof that work solar, so maybe they're gonna as far as what is over.

Or you wanted to speak to the lens itself to solve what percentage of the roof will it just be that southern face, and is it over that 40% threshold?

Yeah, yeah.

So it will be structured to accommodate it in the future.

I mean, I have no idea how the budget will end up being at the beginning if it's something that they'll be able to do at the get go.

But it will get the solar array, yeah.

Yeah, hey um go ahead.

So they look like ready to hang out, but if I was in a wheelchair, how am I getting up there?

Getting uphill up to the mezzanine.

Oh, so code does it require doesn't require to be excessive if it's below a certain percentage of that area.

Okay.

Hi, I'm dear draft couple hunts, and I'm one of the co-owners of the Red Queen.

And uh to your point about the mezzanine, uh, we've discussed this at great length, and there won't be any um displays or merchandise or anything up there, everything is really on the main floor.

There will be additional seating up there, but there's gonna be most of the seating on the main floor, so it will be redundant.

So we do have re you won't have books up there for we won't have books for sale up there that won't we might have cabinetry storage, we might have overstock, something like this, but um our our hope is that we'll really be creating some excess seating for people, but um the main floor is gonna have all the best seating.

Okay, so your events are not gonna be up there.

Well, if we were to have an event, um that is something that we've discussed um that it has to be if we were having somebody playing music, we could be on the main floor, it's a mezzanine, and we can all see and hear music, which is the primary events that we've had.

It would be nice if we could have a little more space at the current size of the bookstore.

We can't really have authors come in, and we can't really have cultural.

We've been partners with cultural caravan for the four years that they've been and we've all been around four or five years, and um we basically have to close down operations in order to have them come in to do a performance, so we can't have coffee, we can't have book sales, which just basically shuts the whole business down, which is a problem because um obviously we can't have many times of cultural free um community events if we have to shut off all operations.

So what we'd like to do is use the main floor in the back area where we can create um, I think um Jacob was speaking, or maybe it was Linda about some movable um bookshelf um features so that we can kind of create a corner, we can have an author there, and it doesn't shut down everything in the front.

So people can still come in and get drinks and have all that sort of thing happening, and then they can still be that.

If we had music, it would be available for everyone to see from either place.

So that's kind of the way we're envisioning it, and um speaking really practically about how to be as inclusive as possible because we uh have um people who work for us who have family members who are disabled who come in all the time.

We have lots of people who have differently you know abled bodies and need different kinds of space to get through with whatever assistive devices they need, and so we want to keep that and make that better, and it's been a struggle in the current space, even just trying to keep enough space that people can get through all the entrances, but it's working, and we do actually run around measuring between like this table and that bookshelf and making sure that we can get in and everyone can get around, but as it gets crowded at the holidays, then it then it becomes much more difficult.

But yeah, but yeah, that I think that's um hopefully ask more questions if we can clarify more about how to use that mezzanine space because that's not we don't want to create an area that only some people can get to.

That's really uh we're very conscious of that.

Thanks.

Any other questions of the applicant for staff is the project summary description going to stay on the cover sheet for the site plan architectural?

And is that is that one of the sheets that gets recorded or I'm trying to answer this without telling you my thoughts on project narratives.

Uh because they change.

Yeah, there's also some typos and factual here.

So it does get recorded.

That's an easy answer.

Okay.

That this the only thing they'll get recorded for the PUD since it's such a simple PUD, and we will need to uh it would be there's like on the resolution, there's an attachment, that's just that text, it'll be a text PUD amendment, and only that gets recorded.

We never record site plan architectural reviews.

Now we do have some of those hybrid PUD slash slash like plans in the past that had been recorded, but uh I don't think that's a great practice, and we're trying not to do that moving forward.

Okay, and then I guess curious on the staff perspective.

My interpretation of condition to be from Laura is it's a condition, but then it uses the word recommend twice.

And so, how are we navigating a condition that is not required?

Uh I I would I would not address that as planning commission because it lure is our own decision-making body, and I would leave that to them.

Uh they I agree it is swishy, and I think it was intentionally squishy, uh, because you know they're also kind of a pro-economic development kind of body, right?

And so they want to make sure that they have the ability to work with businesses to find a path forward.

So I I personally they have their own authority, so I personally don't think that's something the planning commission should kind of intermingle their decision with.

But we could have our own condition separate from that.

Correct.

I mean, if you like their condition, you could just pair it their decision their tradition too, but it uh yeah, but there's a difference if yours was more firm.

They're recommending we make a condition, then it's a requirement, not a recommendation, unless you use the same soft language.

But yes, I think everything we do is recommend to city council, obviously.

But this is we are the decision making body on this one.

All right.

If there are are there any other questions of staff think of it still's coming over there, all right.

There are no more questions of the applicant or staff.

We will move on to commission discussion.

Um, would anybody like to lead off the discussion?

Umpose conditions, etc.

etc.

I'm excited about it.

I think we greatly as a pedestrian on public.

I often have to cut through that weird little baked out space that you're talking about.

It's it was good for the petting soup for one time.

I think it would be nice to have another space.

Thanks for the descriptions of what that'll be like.

I think that'll be a really nice space.

I know it's not for for several reasons it's not ideal, but it's also like they're making the most out of it.

Like they wouldn't have had to do anything, they wouldn't have had to add this entry.

Um that's a low bar.

But I I also I imagine well, I would like to see a door there as well going directly out to that.

They probably need to merchandise that whole wall with books.

But I guess I'm gonna do that.

I don't know why that would be a conflict.

A door is three feet.

Yeah, all right.

And interestingly enough, that could be an interesting feature that could be designed in a way that becomes a secret passage to an isolated cardboard thing.

That's true.

It could be an exit only.

Yeah.

It's like there's like five different compromises happening on that spot.

It feels like it's just it's like there's an expansion because it's a such a tight site, and they're already using so much of the lot, and this is alleviating some of that.

But yeah, adding a door would then just be removing 24 square feet.

But I get the vision.

Yeah.

Um is that something we want them to consider?

Yeah, I think part of it.

I I think for me, it's like if if it's going to be that kind of space, then yeah, you know, you're you're asking people who are off the street coming to the other businesses that are in around the parking lot.

That's great.

I think it really helps, like Commissioner was saying, but I also think that it's not totally gifted to that courtyard.

It's for the read queen as well, right?

So if you're in the space and you want to access that somehow, it feels natural to want to go out a door, and all that light would also be coming back into the space in some way, hopefully.

I'm not sure how, but it seems like there's a wall there.

So I I don't want to make it a condition, it's something I'd like our applicant to really consider as it's 24 square feet as Commissioner Matt suggests, right?

It's not that hard.

They would lose one of the outdoor tables probably too in the process.

Yeah, but then it would be easier for them to take the tables out because there's a direct access to that, right?

So any other points of discussion or commissioner Phillips.

Um I I think this is uh, you know, and we'll be seeing a lot more of this now going forward, I think, which is an infill.

And which is interesting how it creates things that are different from just having a scrape and build a bunch of things at the same time, since it's you know, you're not you're not creating a whole new set of buildings, you're just creating a piece.

And then how does that affect the conditions of what the hole might have been if you built the whole thing at one time?

So that's something we're probably gonna definitely hopefully get into when we start looking at revising the building code sometime in the future.

Um I would like to explore um adding a condition that just basically supports the Lura condition.

And I would look to be some wording because I'm not gonna tell them how to do it, just that something needs to be done.

And I noticed the last sentence of the Lura recommendation was we encourage you to explore opportunities to introduce additional visual interest on this elevation.

How would I word that condition coming from us?

Because there's a lot of encouraging and thinking about that on something that's a little bit more specific here.

I mean, what Lura did is they did two conditions, right?

The first one was a copy of our condition, uh, which is just you must work out so you could just restate theirs, but it has that language that maybe is concerning to you.

Uh well, I'm just interested in the south elevation.

Okay.

And that particular that's on page 13 of our packet.

It says Lura, in addition to condition proposed by staff.

So that's fine.

You've got that taken care of.

I'm not interested in doing anything.

I'm just saying you could do the inverse of that.

Which would be more you could say in a you know, do you could you said you could say uh well, so in their actual nod, they actually restated our condition.

So you could just restate their condition in your in your approval, but that might have some of that squishy language that you that you want to eliminate, maybe I don't imagine.

Okay, you your condition that your case had anything to do with visual interest.

No, no, ours is just about no, but ours was just about uh addressing staff's remaining comment.

Uh but what Lure did is they said that and then they added that condition to talk about the visual interest.

So I'm saying you could add their visual interest condition onto your single condition to have two conditions.

You could just do the inverse of what they did.

Oh, exactly.

But I'm saying the wording of that would have to be what that would actually make something happen versus just you know, you decide whether you want to do something or not.

I mean, it's not them deciding, it's it's whether or not they they convince Lura to either let it ride as is or that Lura holds a firmer stance and and get some more visual interest in there.

Uh so I Lure's language allows them to kind of either get more visual interest or just kind of potentially be fine with it if they feel at the end of the day that the additional visual interest takes away or it's too too burdensome.

So what you're suggesting is we just leave it up to Lura.

You're not having what I'm saying, yeah.

I don't want to leave it up to Lure.

I want to say that we have a condition that says, yes, you will do this.

Yeah.

But I don't feel comfortable crafting that language for you on the spot right now.

Like but I know it I knew you were trying to do that.

I guess I maybe want a little bit of clarity because I know when we do commissions, obviously it then goes to SAF and its staff.

Are you saying that the Lura condition it they basically have to go back to Lura to see if they are satisfied with the condition?

Well, so Lura, in terms of review of applications, is the economic development director or the director of of Lura.

It's not the board anymore.

Sure, sure.

So it's just a simple referral to like the furled referral to the Lura director when it comes back in.

It's not like an official presentation or anything like that.

So it's just like we'd refer to the fire department or anybody else.

Okay, gotcha.

And what is it that you're specifically wanting to capture?

Do you think it's the articulation, the quote unquote blandness of the building, the transparency?

But I think it's bland, but just the uh well, if you look at the southern uh picture there, you'll notice that there is some couple of teeny tiny windows in the door.

Quirky little windows.

Yeah.

And so the recommendation for Lura was that that's kind of understanding their needs.

Smaller windows, which I think don't quite understand because technology is such today that you can get windows that can screen out UV and all that other stuff.

So it's hard.

That's hard.

And it'll have the fun colors, like it'll have the wood stain and the red on top, and it's um I guess in my mind it it might not just be putting a piece of art on there, it might be something that is really, you know, that that is uh you commission an artist, there's some fantastic murals, and it would go over the door and up, you know, it would be um something that would be big, not just that.

I'm seeing that piece of art now.

Um I was wondering what that look like.

Um because it needs to be something that is um almost does look like not graffiti, but you know, polished, but something that's big and bold, um, and that yeah, covers the door or makes it so that the door does not look like this is the entry, so nobody gets confused by that.

Um so I think it needs to be a bold movement, uh bold statement on that south of sudden, not just we're gonna put this little piece of art there.

Because it can hold it can hold that.

This this little district is such a cool unique thing.

It could have this really interesting pop of bold art.

Um just like what was done on well, so many places.

So libertum.

This is a discussion with commission, right?

So your actual experience of this building is going to be off Geneseo in terms of that direction.

So it's the ends that also require some something, right?

Because those are also very wrap around.

Yeah, so the end that's your and I think if you go to the next elevation, Jake, you can see that there's they have that one right there.

It's like it's very large.

So to break it up in some way with um, as you suggest, a commissioned mural or something that sort of talks about this particular um piece, uh the lumberyards, whatever it might be, this particular business helps stop the traffic a little bit and say, I'd like to go there.

I'd like to see what that is.

Um definitely because you articulated the north side with all these windows, the back the back seems a little bit like left out.

Um, and then the ends are not treated either.

Apart from these punched.

And if you did have just a piece of art on there, you wouldn't have to add because that's it.

That is gonna be a lot less costly than adding more penant, more frustration.

Um if you haven't had an artist really.

So the first half of that west side is also gonna have like the arbors with the benches.

So it's gonna be somewhat obscured by that cut through.

But it would be interesting to use that art as another way to pull people through that little space and pull them around to the um, you know, or to hint that there's more happening in this.

If you're driving in the direction or biking in the direction and you see that face, and you kind of see the fact that it's cut through, there's an opportunity for you to say I'd like to see that.

Or I know we're not gonna we're not here to kind of create behaviors, but it's interesting how space and or architecture will allow you to do that.

So I think we're talking about two very separate things.

You're talking about the north side of the building of the existing building.

We're talking about that west corner, yes, and as it pulls around to the south.

I'm talking about the south side.

Well, yeah, we're talking about that whole kind of a whole discussion is like using that as a as a navigational invitation into that part of the area.

So that we can activate a little more of the west side of the building as well as the south side.

Okay.

City attorney, if you could please.

Yeah, so so what one question I think that I've had is is this part of the historic facade?

It is not, it's the addition.

Uh okay.

Yeah, it's it's only on the addition.

Okay, and the reason staff didn't really necessarily agree with Lur on that is because it's kind of out of character with the buildings.

We're looking at this facade, you know, it's very solid.

Uh also keep in mind that they've allowed the entire western building to be wrapped in that historic uh kind of piece.

So they've done a lot there, and I feel like requiring a big mural on a big facade, that's a lot to put on a small business and it's interior to the lot.

It's really visible to people.

Most codes, when they're written, they really talk, they really focus on the public realm.

And this is really getting into the private realm more so.

Uh so like I want I recommend or staff recommends that the board maybe be a little careful on on what they recommend and and that it not be too onerous, and that they acknowledge that they're at that the owner of the property has done a lot with the back building that's highly visible from public, uh, and that they're doing a lot on the on the Geneseo side.

Uh so that's that's why you know staff didn't necessarily reinforce Lura's recommendation.

We think there's something that we can done be done to add some visual interest, but we want that to be open, uh with you know, open to a multitude of options, and maybe it is painting it all red if if if that's what the commission thinks, or something something like that.

I just no, my point was not to tell them you must do this.

My point was just to emphasize do something, you figure out what works.

Yeah, I was just responding to the board conversation in general.

Not you not you can.

I mean if I had my choice that I would you won't have this option, which is the original building on the north side, because that's one big commission, sorry.

Just one big gray block, but we can't do anything with that because that's different thing.

Yeah, that's a really good point.

Is that do something doesn't necessarily that's like very large as far as and I'm going to ask this question why is that more private than the fact that it's the courtyard that takes you into entries into the more public edges, right?

So it isn't quite as private as you think.

I'm just saying that the facade itself would um benefit from let's say that choosing a siding going in one direction or the other and then allowing it to play with that idea.

That's an that's a you know, it's nothing that it's just a thought.

It doesn't it's not like you're gonna do this, right?

Or maybe it's it's sort of fading from some color to this bright red.

So it's like not just one box.

So you know, that's sort of that that so choosing one siding in one direction allows you to do that fade and say, hey, it's coming up right here.

So there are multitude of ways in which you can treat that facade that aren't onerous to the budget in a way.

Um so but I would like to understand how the ends are treated because the ends are the more traffic points, the more visible you're you're not coming in from public, you're coming in from the other sides, right?

So how you how you treat that?

And this end looks I I think this end looks really nice, the east elevation.

The one with the cut.

Well, there's the build, the existing buildings in front of it.

Yeah, and so you just see the just kind of behind the barn peak shape behind it.

Yeah, that one feels like yeah, because there's something in front of it to create the proportion, yeah.

Yeah, totally.

So how do we condition it?

How do we condition it?

I also don't know if there's like which criteria would we be using to condition this anyway, because I feel like I feel like there's been a couple times where there's projects that have a great invitation to do something incredible, and then we get really excited about the architecture, and I agree there's great opportunities.

I think um within the staff report there was some language about um just have to go and find it.

Yep.

Um I can I can read you the criteria for the for the spar.

It's it's criteria I, which says monotony of design within a project has been avoided by providing variation of detail form and siding that provides visual interest.

So a condition could be explore more visual interest.

Um these exterior things.

Yeah, something on that line.

That keeps it general and loose, and then that's up for staff and then to inter negotiate interpreting.

Okay, so it is it is the loose request.

Yeah, I'm not getting into the weeds on ABC.

So it explore additional visual interest on the west and south facades specifically.

Correct.

Um because I'm I'm thinking you know, I'm on the west end of the development, they have those pictures.

Yeah, and that kind of leads right into well, I'm thinking it will lead into the barber and yeah, there's certainly a lot of it's good attention grabber.

Yeah, there's certainly a lot of precedent for imagery.

No, this is the next property or it's the it's the walls that face further west.

It's the west side of the property.

The lumber yard.

Right.

Oh, you're talking about what starts in the parking lot.

Oh, that's the west side of the property.

Oh no, not the west side of this building, not the west side of the property.

A lot, yeah.

Gotcha.

Okay.

Okay.

Any other um items for discussion.

I think just echoing some of the other folks' excitement.

Yeah, I think it's great.

I think having some formal bike racks is a welcome increase to the property.

Um there's more outdoor seating than what's gonna be here.

It's just this feels like the natural kind of evolution for this property.

My kids who don't really like to read ask to go to the Red Queen.

So I'm like that makes me really happy.

And then we get sad when there's no seating.

So all right.

Anyone like to make a motion or any other discussion points?

Well, I see for so if we're gonna go forward with adding a condition.

Yeah, you want how do you want to treat this?

Do we want to vote on the condition first and then the main motion?

Okay.

So um I move to add a condition to the motion to the attorney language.

To explore additional visual interest on the south and west sides of the project.

Yeah.

Is what I heard.

How about facades of the building or appropriate issues?

Of the addition, yeah.

So like in for enforcement would look like staff would make sure that they did explore it.

Exactly.

Exactly.

All those in favor, straw of that additional condition.

Are we all okay with that?

Okay.

Would anyone like to bring up any other items for discussion or make a motion?

Go ahead and move to approve.

Uh oh, name there's only there we go.

Move to approve resolution number PC 2025-11 approving with two conditions, I guess now.

A site plan and architecture review and planned unit development for lots one-three, block three, laffia town site, or the read queen edition.

It's actually red.

I don't know why it says read queen.

Pastor English.

Second there's a there's a whole story there.

There's a whole story.

It's great.

Right.

Uh we have a motion.

Do we have a second?

Second.

Um, do we have any further discussion about the red queen?

All right, all those in favor?

I have all opposed.

All right, motion carries.

Congratulations.

So for full disclosure, by notice I had it spelled correctly on the in the heading, but then in the in the actual uh application name, I spelled red RED.

Because I've had to do that in my head to to say it right, which is spelled H E A D.

Yeah, yeah.

I've never messed that one up, but uh so it so it's also I noticed that's how I've named the file too, just like spelling it red.

So but I've learned now I can actually say Red Queen without uh without messing up like I did for the first three months that it was uh it's a great triple joke.

Yes, and the April Fool's joke was funny too on social media.

Oh, what was the April Fool's joke?

Because that would be books, the reader, yeah.

That's funny.

The illiterate people got upset.

All right, thank you all.

Thank you.

All right, moving on.

Back in the day at Queen.

Many of them were so far off.

All right, other business commission comments or committee reports.

I just have a have a question for our city attorney.

Yes.

Do we need to change all our text to Times New Roman now?

Not unless you make a motion.

We have to traditionally approve any of the next one.

Only if we can equally ban comic sands from any good for dyslexia.

Yeah, there's an actual dyslexic font.

I'd prefer those.

Yes, there's yeah, it's it's a good thing.

So it's been resources.

I would also like to echo Ron's um comment.

Congrats, congrats to Commissioner Watson for reappointment.

Um they did reopen the um uh the application since there were two applicants for two positions.

So um there are there's currently one applicant for this one at maybe two for this for the single open position.

So if anyone knows folks who would like to apply, um please let them know the applications are due on the 19th.

So um any other commissioner comments or committee reports.

I guess technically it's a question, but I'm curious.

Are we allowed to know how many people have applied?

Because if if it's been reopened, are we not naming anybody or anything?

Or are we are we allowed to see a status update on the yeah?

I think we should be able to ask staff that.

The application actually posted.

Yeah, are they posted as they received?

Oh, as they're received.

Yeah.

No, we'll be posted with the city council packet.

Yeah, it'll be with the packet.

Well, yeah, well, we can do it.

There's currency to happen once right now.

Cool.

Okay.

Um any other committee reports?

Um, we'll move on to department comments, but only when Jake rejoins us.

So happy holidays to everybody, whatever it is that we celebrate.

Have a good one, save one, et cetera.

Because we're uh next meeting is when.

Next meeting is yeah.

I'll be on June.

Next year, 2026.

May it be a new year.

You want updates?

I do.

I'm just deciding everything's gonna be timed to new Roman, so you've got to do that.

Yeah, so get on that.

You might not know the chat.

I don't know what I walked into.

That's okay.

Okay, so next meeting, January 14th is gonna be a working group meeting.

We'd we're still we would like to reserve the 21st for potentially uh uh sketch plan review for a big project.

Uh that's not set in stone, but we'd like to reserve it.

I know a lot of people have responded, so keep that uh kind of on your radar.

I don't know, Frank might have given us update, but the Arapo Center Theater, I think City Council approved or chose uh chose a chose an architect firm that not just pick the firm that's gonna it's gonna take the project, is my understanding.

What's going on with the theater?

So that we don't know anything about these things.

No, okay.

What uh there's a proposed addition to the theater off the south side of it to allow it to stay functional.

I think it's like back of uh kind of back of house.

Bill might be able to speak to this more intelligently than me.

Do you know?

Well, my question was would they have to go in front of the planning commission for this edition?

Based on the size, I don't know the size of the building off the top of my head, but based on the size of the edition and what I think the building is, yes, most likely, and they'd have to go uh I think they would also have to go in front of HP C too.

What is this project?

Um I sneaked a coffee here also.

Because according to this, wow, it sounds like a done deal.

Is this something that we might review?

If that's the case, then we shouldn't be good call looking at it.

Well then the city does the city have to come to us for its own construction.

Does the city have to come to us for its own construction?

Yeah, we do not really show it.

Good question.

Now, whether or not it's just uh it's it's kind of the city's right to be able to do that.

I don't, you know, most cities do their best to follow their own codes and follow their own processes and procedures.

Uh yeah, but a lot of them don't, so trust me.

I've worked in cities that they had had exemptions, just like you know, schools have exemptions, they're preempted by the state and federal government has preemptions.

Uh, it's not more non-compliant than the current non-compliance.

Yes.

So I don't want to get too far in front of the project.

It hasn't even been designed they picked the firm to do it.

Uh and that and that's all.

Okay.

The city.

Is it a city owned?

Is it a city owned parcel?

Correct.

We own the building, yes.

Okay.

You can you can discuss with our city attorney uh when the time comes.

Well it's not an active application right now.

I believe I saw it at a different commission meeting.

Yeah, yeah.

It came up there.

Correct.

You were at HPC and it came up at HPC.

Yes, and well, you were there then.

Yep.

Well, this city and HPC was on the board.

That's why you would recuse yourself for this.

Well, because everybody was acting like this is a poison pill here when it's freezing.

Oh no, no, I just um it would be a question for Maryland.

What you would have to do then is you would have to announce it if we have to review this and say I have looked at this piece of paper outside the confines of but I still feel like I can judge.

Yeah, you gotta do it.

Or there's an active application and all that fun stuff.

Not trying to be a buzzkill.

I just don't want anybody to don't want us to get in trouble.

So further updates uh the pocket park uh on public and south public.

Is it spalding?

Or is it that one it's been circulated uh among staff you can bar kind of uh thank you?

Oh, there you go.

Thank you.

So that one's been circulating uh with staff to kind of look at one last time before it actually gets final design and comes in for permits, so that's making progress.

And then I believe somebody asked about uh Desperos at one time.

Permits were issued this week.

So yes, permits were issued this week.

I think a fence might have gone up today.

Uh so expect to see where the hood.

Uh with this little pocket part when we when you guys release the contract for that, it's still gonna have the contract to do the L.

Uh those are as I understand those are completely separate projects.

Okay.

Uh in terms of they're not necessarily we're going hand, they're not going necessarily together.

They're all being, as I understand it, funded by Lura, but uh, I don't think I don't know that they pick they're picking the same contractor to do both or they're intermingled like that.

Um I'm I could be wrong.

I can I can ask some questions about that.

It's curiously, I thought they told us uh spring spring it'll be done.

Yeah, I know that we we've been requested to try to give it a throwover review at this stage now before they before they finalize and submit to try to try to make sure we're not throwing, you know, we're we're addressing daylight and things now and not not then.

So uh and then lastly the PC recruitment period, I think closes on 1219.

And we have two applicants so far.

And I believe City Council at their next council meeting will pick the uh the interview committee or the selection, the interview committee.

I guess it's not a selection committee.

And uh so that's that's progressing.

And that's all I really have for you.

All right, any other comments, questions?

If not, um I'd like to make a motion to adjourn me.

We are adjourned.

And Del I might go grab a take measure real quick.