Just kind of concentrated, not you know, people in the back and otherwise wherever you're comfortable.

So we do.

I think I thought she'd be like, that was the message I just think.

Yeah, sound more.

I'll try to hang it over here.

Oh, look at that.

You make make link happen.

Okay, here I'll come in.

Can we do one more?

You think you got one more?

All right.

Welcome to Planning Commission.

This fine September 4th, 2025.

Officially called or move the agenda item number two.

Professor.

Take it and go.

All right.

Hi everyone.

Thank you so much for being here.

It's fun to get to join one of your planning commission meetings.

My name is Donya Romori.

I'm actually here in my personal capacity, but in the rest of my life, I'm a professor at the University of Utah where I run the environmental dispute resolution program.

I'm also a professor in the College of Law and in the city metropolitan planning department.

And since this is potentially relevant to this audience, I have a PhD in planning.

So I am one of the planning folks, although I work in a law school.

So I got invited to come talk to you about conflict.

It's my favorite topic.

Everyone loves conflict.

And then just one word you think of when you think of conflict.

And I encourage everyone just to say the first thing that comes to mind.

Don't overthink it, there's no right or wrong words.

So let me give you 20 seconds to think about that, and then we'll go around and do a quick round of introductions.

Okay, hopefully that gave everyone a chance to think of something.

I'm going to start over here if that's okay.

I am on the planning commission as an alternate.

And uh a couple of words I thought it was like resolution and also discussions.

Okay, resolution and discussions.

Run every planning commissioner.

And opportunity.

Opportunity.

Um Greg Jackson, I'm the chair.

War.

War.

Mm-hmm.

Hi scenario on the planning commission and I kind of perspective.

Perspective.

Some good words.

Yeah.

Okay, I'm Gary Ellis.

I'm with the Lee ICD engineering department here.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Uh Katie Wells, here, and yeah.

Yep, that too.

I am Abby Hakeya.

I work for recreation and I would say town.

Uh I would say priorities.

Yeah.

Maybe you want to go.

So yeah, conflict is all of those things.

I have to say you had more positive words than my typical audience does.

I like to believe that means you maybe have some skills for navigating conflict and have learned to make it productive.

Um but wherever you're at, this training is for you.

So just show of hands.

Who's experienced conflict in your work?

Put it up.

You work at our city.

I know how that goes.

Um how about in your personal life?

Yeah.

Okay.

Uh who tends to feel a little anxious, tense, or nervous when you encounter conflict?

Again, just true answers.

Yeah, some not, that's great.

And then who typically finds dealing with conflict to be really easy and comfortable?

Some people, like yeah.

Even maybe like conflict.

I wouldn't admit it in a crowd.

So I like to start with these questions just to reinforce one that conflict just is.

Right?

I do trainings for about a thousand people every year, and pretty much all the hands go up when I ask who's dealt with conflict.

Right?

It's just a normal, natural part of life.

And what I want to talk about tonight, and we'll lead into the second session through what we'll talk about tonight, is a lot of us have a lot of misunderstandings about conflict that are understandable, but they get us into trouble.

So I want to talk a little bit about that.

Um, I also just like to note that a lot of us have had negative experiences with conflict.

So it's understandable that we maybe feel anxious, tense, um, have challenges when we deal with conflict.

And again, what I want to do is leave you all with some skills that will help you and other people in your life, because you can share these skills, productively navigate the conflict you will inevitably face in the work you do as well as in all parts of your life.

So again, conflict just is that's why we need to talk about conflict, and that's why we need to learn to deal with conflict.

And I personally am on a mission to teach as many people as possible basic skills for how to navigate conflict because things like politics, our society is sort of melting down because we don't really have good skills for dealing with conflict.

At least that's my belief.

So where we're going, there's two sessions to this training, which I'm grateful to have that much time with you all, because in an hour and a half, I can give you some basic ideas, but not a whole lot of skills.

So my hope in these two sessions is we can cover the basic ideas and give you some very actionable skills.

Um we're gonna cover what conflict is, what it's not, and why that matters.

I want to talk a little bit about um, well, I'll build on that and talk about what collaboration is and what it isn't and why that matters.

And I want to talk about what I call conflict competence, right?

Which is basic skills for navigating conflict productively.

And some of the skills we'll cover will include interests versus positions.

People who have taken my class, hopefully remember that concept, very important.

We'll also cover effective listening and effective framing.

And those three skills I've taught them to many, many people.

If you put them into practice, they will change your life in the most positive and wonderful of ways.

Um I'm also gonna give you some additional tools and resources you can uh follow up on to continue your learning.

So, what to expect today in this session, we're gonna cover the basics of conflict.

We're gonna cover interests versus positions.

Again, such a fundamental key concept that is so powerful.

And we'll talk about effective listening.

My hope is between now and when we meet again in a month, you will all go practice those skills, and then we will come back and build on them in session two, which is on October 2nd.

We'll talk about effective framing and reframing.

We'll talk about uh the basics of collaboration, and we'll talk about self-regulation, a really key skill that will help all of us in all parts of our life, and kind of tie it all together.

But first, we're gonna start with a little exercise.

So I'm gonna have folks find a partner.

I think we actually have the right number too for it.

So find a partner.

Turn around, find a partner.

Make sure you got somebody.

One of you over here is gonna have to move over there.

Yep.

Okay.

Who's got the go?

You're gonna have to move, sorry.

You've got to go.

Okay, so this exercise is called thumb wrestling.

Does anybody in the room not know how to thumb wrestle?

Okay, good.

Oops, so here's here's how this is gonna go.

When I say go, you and your partner are gonna have 15 seconds to score as many points as you can.

Right?

So you're gonna thumb wrestle your your goal is to score as many points as you can.

The key thing is no.

So score as many points as you can.

The key thing is no talking.

Okay?

So find your partner.

When I say go, keep track of your score.

Okay.

Get ready, get set, go.

No talking, you can laugh, but no talking.

And stop.

Okay, who thinks they scored the most points in the room?

Yeah.

Who scored the most points in the room?

Who do you who thinks they scored the most?

Anyone at three?

How would you get?

Three.

Three.

Anyone get more than three?

Four.

Okay.

Yeah, we got more of that.

We have an interesting strategy.

Give each other.

Okay, well, hold hold steady.

How many did you score?

That's all I want to know.

Twenty-seven.

One individual or something.

Okay, you got 27?

Apparently, I'm really good at it.

Okay, and you got zero.

No.

I got twenty-seven.

He got twenty-seven.

Okay, well, so this we're gonna do this again.

I'm gonna give you 30 seconds to talk to your partner before we do another round.

When we start the next round, no talking.

So 30 seconds talk to your partner, and then we're gonna do another round, score as many points as you can, no talking.

Okay?

30 seconds, go talk to your partner.

Is it done?

I mean, it's not a good thing.

Okay, stop.

When I say go, you can you have 15 seconds to score as many points as you can.

Thumb wrestling, no talking.

You can laugh, you can squeal, but no talking.

Get ready, get set, go.

And stop.

Okay, so who thinks they scored the most points in the room?

How many over here?

Two thousand.

I watch you guys.

Well, each win was worth a thousand.

Oh.

Okay, so some interesting rules coming up.

That's a new one for me, which is amazing, because I've done this with a lot of people.

Anybody score more than two thousand?

28 million.

One million.

All right, so this group is interesting, right?

Just even the question of, well, points for who, like together as a team or individual, rarely comes up.

So there's a lot that I love about this exercise that teaches us about conflict.

So there were still some groups that were doing like the thought, actual thumb wrestling.

But if you have a good conversation, you really usually realize, like, hey, last time you got zero points and I got zero points.

Could we do better by coming up with a joint strategy?

Right?

So I saw some groups doing like alternating thumbs.

Uh usually when people don't get two thousand, I have someone come up with me and I say, Well, let's do two thumbs.

You tag mine as many times as you can, and I'll tag yours.

Right?

Usually, and this might have happened in this group, but they won't admit it.

One group says, Well, you have a faster thumb, tag me as many times as you can.

And I say, Well, did you sign a legally binding uh document that you will split those points because otherwise you just got a raise and you lost your job.

I got 27.

The second time, but I'm just thinking on you guys, right?

So there's a lot that this exercise teaches us about conflict.

So I have a question.

Yeah.

Wouldn't it be prudent that I mean we we tried to line up some basic things, not knowing where the end was going.

But in the example you just said that I would lose my job.

Had I been able to talk to you more to find out what's really the end game, then there, I mean, there's not really a conflict here with the thumbnails.

Well, I get that for the teaching thing.

Practically, I told Ken.

I don't my position is I don't care, and my interest is I care even less.

So it doesn't really, there was nothing at stake for me for that.

So it was there's a difference between in my mind at least conflict and competition.

Well, let's let me just dissect this for you all.

There's some key lessons in it, and I like this exercise because it's embodied.

It's something we can come back to and remember.

And so I hear everything you're saying, we're gonna talk about it.

And I love skeptical crowds, because it's my job to uh can convince you, right?

That it's more that this exercise is so simple, but it's actually very reflective of very complex situations.

And I'll just note that most of the conflicts I work on are multi-party, often involving 30 plus parties around public lands and other slightly controversial issues.

And I can tell you that what I see play out in this exercise plays out in those situations.

So let me walk through what I see in this exercise and part of why I love it.

So the whole idea is conflict happens when some issue of mutual concern brings us into interdependence with each other.

This might be we live in Lehi and we care about what happens in this community, right?

Um in this situation, score as many points as you can is that situation that brings you into interdependence.

You cannot score points on your own unless you create some very new crafty rules, which I wouldn't put past this group.

So here's where it gets interesting.

People have different needs around that issue of mutual concern, and that's why we have conflict.

If I get points, Brittany's got not getting points.

If Britney gets points, I'm not getting points.

We have different needs, and therefore we have conflict.

And as hot happens often, it didn't happen as much in this group as it does in many, which maybe has to do with the kind of planning orientation of folks.

I don't know.

Um but people often assume that that situation is zero sum.

Meaning that for one party to do better, the other party has to do less well.

And what that is interesting in that is that often puts us into a lose-lose situation.

In most groups, people assume, well, like the whole idea here is to get points, and so I'm like, we're in a compete system, and all of a sudden I get zero and you get zero, or maybe I get three and you get one.

We're not getting a whole lot of points.

Right?

But there is potential to create value through working together effectively.

And I want to drive home, this is not kumbayal, let's all get along.

This is very, very pragmatic stuff.

So there's the potential to create value if parties can effectively work together, and there is real potential to lose value when parties don't work together effectively.

To create those mutual gains, the parties have to agree on and they have to implement an effective strategy.

And this is where we often fall so flat.

To do that, they must, whether or not they realize they're doing it, negotiate and collaborate.

And important, effective communication is really key to creating that joint strategy.

Just talking isn't enough.

In many groups, when I do this exercise, everybody's in their compete mode to start.

And then I say, talk to your partner for 30 seconds.

They know they're gonna do the exercise again.

But they're like, why are we thumb wrestling?

This is weird, right?

Or like, hey, how is your day?

Why are we talking to each other?

Right?

You had 30 seconds to joint strategize.

You did a pretty good job in this room.

Awesome.

Most people do not, right?

Just talking isn't enough.

I've worked with a lot of collaborative groups that meet monthly and they talk, but they're not negotiating effectively and they're not productively working through their conflict.

They're not even talking about their conflict a lot of times.

Also, really important, again, this is not like a kumbayal, let's all get along.

Parties have to have confidence in each other, they will follow through.

A lot of times when I do this exercise, at the end, I see a group doing this, like nice, you know, trade-off tag team, and then somebody goes for a couple extra points at the end.

What do I do when that happens?

I say, stop, no talking, we're doing the exercise again.

What do you think that group does?

They go right back to fighting.

I'm not gonna give you the extra points, right?

You took advantage of me.

So this is very real.

This is not just soft feely stuff, but if I can't trust that you will follow through on commitments and have my back as much as I have yours, this isn't gonna work.

So parties have to have confidence that they can follow through and the other party will, and they should take action to protect their interests.

Sorry I picked on you guys, but a lot of times in the groups I work with, again, somebody gets all the points and they don't have a legally binding agreement, they're gonna split them.

And who's to stop this guy's boss from taking all those points?

Right?

You can be both kind and firm.

Yes, I would love to have you tag me as many times as possible, but let's sign a document, we're gonna split them so we're both protected.

Right?

It is very pragmatic stuff.

So I want to start by talking about what is conflict, and it's already kind of coming up.

There are a bazillion definitions of conflict.

Having trained a heck of a lot of people, I find it really helpful to think of conflict as simply the intersection of different needs, wants, ideas, perspectives that are in tension with each other and not easy to reconcile.

We experience conflict when those things come together and are like, ugh, this isn't, this is hard, this is hard to work out, right?

When it's really easy to work out, we don't even realize we have that difference often.

But when it is intention, that's when we start to experience conflict.

And I want to drive home that as I said before, conflict just is.

We will not always see eye to eye, we will not always want the same thing, and that's not bad.

It just is.

What's important is how we deal with conflict, right?

And when we deal with conflict poorly, we tend to get bad outcomes.

It becomes destructive.

But the flip side is also true.

If we deal with this productively, we can actually harness what I'm gonna call the co-creative potential of that difference to create new and better things.

Conflict, if dealt with skillfully, can actually be quite productive.

So how parties deal with conflict is what really matters, and that's why I'm on a mission to give people as many skills as I can because very few of us actually get taught skills for how to deal with conflict.

It took me until I got a PhD to be like, why did I not learn this in kindergarten?

Um, they're basic skills, but they're also hard skills for a lot of us to learn because we've learned a whole other way of being and dealing with conflict.

So again, what I'm calling and others call conflict competency is a key skill set for being able to productively navigate conflict.

It can also help us avoid conflict becoming a dispute, and that's when conflict goes from being just is to now we've got destructive outcomes.

Right?

You can think of expensive litigation, relationships are being damaged, that's when we get into dispute land.

Importantly, when we need to reach agreement about courses of action, when we're not just working through some differences, but we actually have to like implement a policy or agree on a policy.

We have to collaborate.

We have to work through that conflict productively and agree on some solutions.

The word collaborate comes from the roots of co-labor, to work together.

So I really encourage people to think of true collaboration as being to work together to make conflict productive because people will not always see eye to eye.

You put seven commissioners in a room and they're gonna have different ideas.

And if they're really collaborating, they're gonna work through that difference productively, right?

When ideas start to get silenced and we don't surface them, then stuff festers, then it issues don't get resolved and we have problems.

So real collaboration in my mind, having worked with a lot of collaborative groups is about being able to productively work through our differences.

And then I just want to note that conflict competence and collaboration again are very pragmatic skill sets.

They're actually rooted in interest-based negotiation.

This is not going to be a deep training in interest-based negotiation.

If you want training in that, happy to do that.

But I'm going to give you some of the basic skills that really underpin all of those things.

So earlier, when I asked you words that you think of when you think of conflict, people understandably some said war, because we tend to use the word conflict synonymously with war.

I want to just note that when we have conflict, there are innumerable numerous ways we can deal with it.

We can have a conversation in the hot tub that's very pleasant and resolve our conflict.

Or we can let it devolve all the way to war.

And unfortunately, we have a lot of situations where we let conflict get to that point.

War is not conflict, it is a way of dealing with conflict, and it is one that is very destructive.

There are a lot of other not very productive ways of dealing with conflict, right?

Avoiding it just tends to fester, tends to cause other problems.

Arguing, what fighting over it, devolving to violence, and again eventually to war.

These are ways of dealing with conflict.

They are not conflict itself, and they are not productive ways of dealing with conflict.

So again, I'll just drive home.

I'm gonna use this word conflict competence to talk about skills for being able to productively navigate conflict, different way of dealing with conflict.

And I want to be really clear that conflict competence is not just being nice, right?

Being nice can get you into a heck of a lot of trouble.

You can always be kind, but just being nice, sort of like I just want this to go away, can get us into real problems.

It's not the same as compromise.

I'll talk about that in a moment.

Our governor uses this term disagree better.

That is a good aspiration, but when you need to agree on a policy and implement it, just disagreeing better, but not actually reaching some agreement on that policy is not gonna solve your problem.

And it's also not sit down, shut up, and get along, right?

I am not telling you that's what we're here to do.

I'm saying when you have that difference, there are skills that can help you productively work through it to get to a better place.

So let me tell a little story.

And so you've got your thumb wrestling exercise.

I hope you come back to that as a reminder of what tends to happen when we deal with conflict.

We tend to get in that positional fighting mode when there is often that potential to get into a co-creative creating value for everybody mode.

I also hope you come back to the story of the orange.

It's a really good thing for us to anchor in our minds.

So the story goes like this.

Two teenage kids are fighting in the kitchen over the last orange.

Mom comes in, it's Mother's Day, she's had a long day at work, she's really upset the kids are fighting.

She grabs the orange, she cuts it in half, gives both the kids a half, and says, hey, half of an orange is clearly the only fair solution.

Kids are upset, they throw the orange at their half of the orange at each other and they stomp out of the room.

Mom finally calms herself down, she goes talks to her daughter, and she says, Honey, why are you so upset?

And her daughter says, Mom, I really needed the rind of a whole orange to make you grandma's muffin recipe.

I wanted to do something nice for you for Mother's Day.

Mom's like, oh.

She goes and talks to her son.

Honey, why are you so upset?

Clearly, half an orange is the only fair solution.

Mom, I needed the juice of a whole orange to make you marinated steak recipe I learned in home egg, and a half an orange won't do.

Mom's like, oh my gosh.

If I had just walked into that room and said, yo, calm down, why are we fighting over the orange and realize we didn't even have a conflict?

One needed the rind, one needed the juice, right?

I mean, that's not even a tension.

Let's imagine a situation where both kids needed the rind of the orange, right?

If that became clear that mom might have said, you know, I've actually always wanted to make that muffin recipe with a lemon rind.

Would you be willing to try that?

Right?

There was a conflict, but we could resolve it through creative solutions.

This may seem overly simplistic, but again, I can tell you, having worked on major challenges around public lands that this is often how conflict plays out.

We get focused on our positions.

I need the orange and totally lose sight of what really matters to us, what we're gonna call our interests, our fundamental needs or concerns.

In this situation, both kids wanted to do something nice for mom for Mother's Day.

That was ultimately what they were trying to do.

But what happened?

They were fighting when mom came home because they were stuck on that position.

This is how conflict tends to play out.

And when you become positional, which is very normal and natural, and there's a kind of biophysical reason we tend to do it.

Our brains don't like uncertainty.

They want to know that I'm just gonna get that orange and all my issues are gonna be resolved, but that's not how the world works.

But when you do that, you preclude all those creative solutions, you preclude the ability to work together.

Let's imagine the kids that both walked in and be like, oh, you want the orange, what do you want the orange for?

Oh, you need the rind, oh, you need the juice.

Hey, we could help each other cook these recipes, so get them done by the time mom gets here.

We'd help each other clean up the kitchen and we could buy mom some flowers.

Now mom's gonna have a really awesome Mother's Day, right?

When we get to our fundamental interests, there is so much room to create value.

And you might say it's unrealistic that people want the same thing.

I don't think there's anybody who really wants the Great Salt Lake to dry up.

It's not going to be good if you live in this area, right?

You may not be thinking about that though, because you want water for your farm.

You may not be thinking about that because you're concerned about water for your city.

More often than not, we actually have a lot of shared interests, but we are focused on other things.

And that can lead us to make decisions that are not very good for us in the long run.

So I just want to drive home this concept, and then we're going to work with it.

Because there's nothing more important other than maybe self-regulation that I'm going to teach you.

So the key thing here is to learn to focus on what we're going to call interests and not positions.

Our interests are our key needs or concerns.

Right?

Why did the kids want the orange?

Well, one wanted to make muffins, what they really wanted was to do something nice for mom for Mother's Day.

That was their fundamental why.

Positions are a particular what or a how.

They are a solution or strategy that we are kind of pushing on others of demand often, the way we think we could solve a problem.

Right?

I need the orange is a position.

Importantly, when it comes to understanding interests, we need to understand that our interests are not just substantive.

Right?

They are also procedural.

We want to feel like we are considered in decision making, like we have a voice.

They're also emotional and relational, right?

To feel loved, heard, considered.

The relationships we have, they're important to us.

And importantly, I think of this like an iceberg.

We tend to get really focused on the substantive things and totally lose sight of procedural and emotional relational when often those things are as or more important.

And in line with this, and this is important for those of you working in municipal government or with municipal government, the research is really clear.

Most people just want to feel hurt and considered.

And a lot of times their substantive issues and concerns are alleviated when they at least feel truly hurt and considered and maybe understand why what they want can't actually be done, or that it's at least being considered in decision making.

Somebody does or doesn't feel heard, does does the work or doesn't do it.

Okay, so I'm can't drive home enough.

If you can walk away from this training of just really taking this concept to heart and learning to practice focusing on interests and not positions, it will change your life.

It will change your decision making, it will change your home life.

So I want to give you a chance to start to practice with it.

So I'm gonna ask you all on your own, please be quiet so everyone can really think, to take three minutes and think of a real world conflictual situation you have experienced recently in your work, or if you prefer in your life, something that feels relevant, but something you're also willing to talk with others about, because we will share a little bit.

It could have been like, I just really felt like we needed to have a no ADU policy, whatever that might be, right?

Like what was that position?

And then the hard part of what were your underlying interests, what was really underneath that, what was your why, your fundamental needs or concerns?

I want to warn you all, this can seem simple in theory, but it's very difficult to put into practice in reality to help you get clearer on what your interests are.

I encourage you to practice what we call the nine whys.

Right?

So let's say you're like, I really wanted to outlaw ADUs.

Okay, why?

Why did I think that was a good idea?

And then ask, you get an answer.

Why did I think that was important?

Why did I think that would be helpful?

Try and ask why nine times to peel back the layers of the onion to get to what really mattered to you in that situation.

Does that make sense?

Everyone willing to give it a try.

Okay, again, three minutes on your own.

I encourage you to really put some thought into this.

If you were gonna get anything out of this training time together, it's gonna be through doing these exercises.

So I encourage you to give it a try.

Three minutes, and then we'll have a chance to chat with each other.

Okay, I hope that gave you a little bit of a chance to think.

Um, this is usually not very easy, so if you got a little stuck, that's very normal.

What I'd love to have you do is get in groups of about three, maybe three to four, given our numbers.

And I'd love you just to talk about what did you uncover, if anything, through that process.

Um, what are you taking away from that?

Did they give you any insight clarity?

Did you get stuck?

Were you like, I don't even understand this concept, whatever's c going on for you.

I'd love for you to take a little time to share with each other.

And given the amount of time we have, let's do this for seven minutes.

Okay, and again, I encourage you to really use your time to explore this concept because it will serve you when you leave today.

So it's mostly not detailed for that.

Yeah, I just sort of write out the right.

I guess important.

I got the sense of this.

Make sure everybody in your group has a chance to share.

I'm going to give you five more minutes.

So it has to find something.

If it's in a closet, is that really all the day because we'll do it.

There was an argument that it was.

I don't know.

I'm glad you got to part of it.

Essentially that's what you do.

30 seconds to wrap up your conversations.

Alright, everybody, I'm gonna call your attention forward, and I would love to hear.

I would love to hear if anybody's willing to share any insights, ah haws or anything that came up for you or in your group.

I know it's late in the evening, often we're not so inclined to share, but if there's anything that stirred up for you, it might be helpful for others to hear.

Yeah, why is this important interesting?

No, go for it.

Yeah.

Yeah, right?

Well, I love that you engage with it seriously, because a lot of times people are like, I asked why once and I had the answer.

Right?

But when I sit with them when we talk through it.

Yeah, right.

Why do you have that?

Yeah, I appreciate that honesty.

And those are good listeners who will ask those questions.

We'll get to that in a moment.

I'd love to see just a real quick show of hands.

Who actually was able individually or in your group to do a little bit of the nine whys and found that it was helpful or revelatory?

Well, of course we do.

I'm not in teacher mode.

I'm not gonna grade you.

But I'm curious, because I mean I've had times where I've done this to myself and I was like, whoa, I ended up somewhere really different than I thought I was gonna end up.

And usually that's a very liberating moment because advocating for this thing was not gonna get me this thing, which is what really mattered to me.

So uh Brittany, how to hand up.

Yeah, kind of um what Ari was saying, but you were just saying, I thought it was interesting as I did the why is I got down to the why that also kind of conflicted with some other actual beliefs I have.

Like maybe somewhat situational, like in this moment it seemed like this value, but I also value this that maybe you're the closing.

Yeah.

Oh, this is such a fun group.

You guys are so fun to work with.

Um a few things stirring up from these comments.

One, internal conflict is real.

One of the reasons conflict is so hard for us is because of our own unresolved internal conflict.

Right?

I want to be a good parent, but I really want you to go to bed right now.

I can see the body language when I use that voice, right?

That doesn't usually work super well.

Right?

But it can be like, I want to be a good parent, but right?

And that can be these unresolved things that we haven't explored what's underneath what does it even mean to be a good parent, right?

What does that even mean?

And so a lot of times our unresolved conflict is unexamined feelings, emotions, things, and when we get to the root of it, sometimes we realize we have different things pulling in tension with each other.

And if we don't reconcile them, then we will project them on others.

So that's real.

And these skills are as relevant for that internal conflict as they are for working with others.

Right?

So I want to stay up late and watch a movie, but I'm also really tired and want to go to bed.

Right?

That's a moment of internal conflict.

Why?

Right?

You'd use the nine whys.

Why do I want to do that?

Why do I want to do that?

Those are positions.

Maybe you stay up late and connect with your partner because that's what you really wanted to do, and then you make make it so you can sleep in a few minutes later in the morning, right?

Like we often have a lot of wiggle room on things we can do, but we can get stuck on those simple conflicts of being like, why do I have this internal conflict?

So don't underestimate how real the internal stuff is and how these skills apply to it and can help you resolve it so you can show up in the external world in a more productive way.

Also coming up is the idea of values.

And I actually have changed how I teach about conflict in the last few years.

Historically, conflict literature tends to talk about value-based conflict as being like the most intractable conflict.

That is not unreal, but I think it's worth asking like what is a value.

Right?

A lot of times a value is something we are identified with, and it actually has more to do with our ego and our sense of identity and something we have to protect to feel whole than something that actually brings us joy and helps us thrive.

And I think of some of the big wars that are happening internationally that are between different communities with different values.

And a lot of times they don't even know what the conflict is about anymore.

It has just become like my identity is so bound up in this.

And I'm not saying that doesn't make it very hard.

It makes it impossible in some ways, but that leads to situations that are lose lose.

When we get too bound up in our identity and we lose track of what our fundamental needs and concerns are, we can actually do a lot of harm.

So obviously, like how you define values, there's a lot of questions there.

But what I'd say is if you do the nine whys and you get really serious, for most of us, that root of that onion of peeling back the layers is the desire to be safe and connected.

Two key things for human well-being.

And a lot of times we behave in ways that make us either physically unsafe or definitely less connected because we're not dealing with the difference productively.

And I don't know that I'm gonna get into this in my slides today.

I can't remember if it's in there.

But one of the key things I talk about, and this is very real, is when we when we see conflict as a threat.

Oh no, we don't see eye to eye, oh no, my identity is at risk here.

Any variety of things that feel threatening, our nervous system says, you're not safe now.

This feels like a threat.

Our amygdala fires up, and we basically go into our lizard brain mode and we go into fight, flight, freezer peas.

We behave in ways that predictably get very bad outcomes from conflict.

And then we just perpetuate a like a destructive cycle of conflict.

And so I just want to I will leave you all to do with it as you will, but I think this idea of values being at the core of that onion is maybe a little bit tricky.

Because I would say fundamental human needs, yes.

But like identity.

I don't know.

I'm just gonna leave that there.

It doesn't come up in a training like this, so I'm gonna just leave that there, and we can talk more about it if you want to.

Anything else stirring up for folks?

And I'm a big believer conflict is an opportunity to learn or grow.

So if I have learn and grow, so if I say something that you strongly disagree with, let's talk about it.

Anything else coming up from this exercise or from anything I've just shared?

I discovered that I was wrong and Greg Holtz grudges.

Yeah!

But did you ask him why?

I don't want to go.

I did hear him say something like, No, you voted against it.

It's been like five years.

Yeah.

That's where I get to be a nerdy academic.

I'm a historian.

Yeah.

Uh so the research is really clear, our memories are very inaccurate, extremely inaccurate, actually.

Like to the more accurate you think yours is, the more likely it's inaccurate.

So we're not really sure what happened there.

Yeah.

But it's actually an interesting teaching point because a lot of times people will hold grudges, not saying that you do, but about things that didn't even happen.

About stories we're telling ourselves.

Right.

And if that moment you say, like, I'm so upset at this person, well, why?

Why is that important?

Why is that important?

Why would that be helpful?

A lot of times you get at the this isn't only gonna cause pain, right?

What matters is going forward.

So can we have some agreement or something in place to protect this from happening again or make sure that going forward we're working together productively?

Because this is obviously obvious, but yet we don't act as if it is.

Like you cannot change the past.

But a lot of us will spend a lot of energy on things we cannot change and will not be putting that into things we can change.

And it gets us really messed up when we have difference.

Okay, I'm gonna keep us moving along.

So just a couple key nuggets here, and we'll take a real quick brain break in a moment.

So, some key advice for focusing on interests.

I'm sorry I'm standing here as a way, I don't know where to go.

So, for many of us, if we take this really seriously, I know this was true for me, like, even though in some ways this might have been a little intuitive, it was so radical for me when I learned this during my PhD.

If you take this to heart, it will change how you see and operate in the world, and it is very liberating and empowering.

A lot of things that seem like intractable conflict, impossible things to resolve, can become very easy to work through if we just focus on interests.

So for most of us, it's gonna have that effect, but it's gonna take work to get there, and I just really encourage people to take it seriously and be patient and keep practicing.

I teach this concept at least once a day, effectively.

And there's still times where I'm like, wow, Danya, you're being positional.

I will catch myself.

It is just so ingrained into our brains.

As I said before, and I think this is just so important, really understanding our interest, getting to that problem solving space is like peeling back the layers of an onion.

In the orange story, the kids only have to peel back the layers of the onion one layer to say, well, why do you want the why do you want the orange?

Oh, you need the rind, I have the juice.

We don't even have a conflict.

But again, if you're like, well, you both want the rind, okay, we're still kind of stuck.

Well, why?

Right?

So you need to peel back the layers of the onion until you get to that problem solving space.

And again, just really encourage you to use that nine wise exercise in all parts of your life.

It's very, very helpful.

This concept applies to all parts of your life and work.

I hope you will leave today and help each other think through this when something's coming to planning commission, like even thinking, what are the city's interests as it pertains to this issue?

Are we clear about that?

Often we're pushing certain positions and we lose sight of what it is we're really trying to achieve or what really matters to us.

Um, so just we'll inform what you advocate for, how you frame your conversations.

We'll talk about that in the next session, how you solicit input.

A key thing I see for a lot of public officials is they'll send out a survey, and I'm gonna pick on Little Cottonwood Canyon right now, and they'll say, Do you want a gondola or not?

Position.

What are you gonna get?

Well, apparently we got 80% no, but what did that matter, right?

That doesn't tell you anything.

And people aren't even thinking about why.

They're just like, I don't like the idea of a gondola, or I like the idea of a gondola.

It is not a useful piece of information.

What's useful is what are the concerns you have about Little Cottonwood Canyon?

Are you a user?

If so, how do you use it?

What are the values you hold around this area, right?

To use that word.

Getting that kind of information can help you make decisions where you could say, oh my gosh, a gondola is not gonna solve our problem.

Or we could do a gondola in all these different ways that addresses these other concerns and allows for the different uses and protects the different values.

Right?

Gondola, yes or no is not useful problem solving.

But how do we plan for this area in a way that addresses these different concerns and explore the different solutions that meet the different interests?

That's where you get into really good problem solving.

And again, how you solicit information is gonna or solicit feedback is gonna inform what you get back and how useful it is.

And most public officials that I've worked with are sending out a lot of feedback surveys that are not very helpful.

And then just so important when it comes to understanding interests, you have to be effective listening.

You have to do effective listening.

You have to listen effectively to others to understand their interests, or you have to be effectively listening to yourself to understand your interests.

And we'll talk a bit about that.

And again, these skills are as important inwardly focused as they are outwardly focused.

And again, we'll talk about this more here in a moment.

But effective listening is all about listening to truly try to understand.

And I've done a lot of training with a lot of people, and I would say on average, 80% of the people I train recognize after I've done some work with them that they're not very good listeners.

I know for myself, before I got exposed to this stuff, I was not a very good listener.

And that is not a like shame bad on you.

It is just truly, this is not a skill that we have really cultivated.

Those of us who have been exposed to active listening often didn't get the whole idea of doing this is to truly understand what's going on for the other person.

And again, it's too a skill that is so simple but is so life-changing when you start doing it.

I can say this having worked with a lot of people.

Um so we're gonna spend some time with that here in a moment.

So just to wrap up this idea, when dealing with conflict, curiosity is an absolute superpower.

Saying, I do not know what is going on for you.

I do not even know what necessarily is going on for me.

Right?

Being curious about that, not coming in and having to have the answers or knowing, but just thinking of what's really going on here, what is possible, just bringing that open mindset.

And again, this is not kumbayal, let's all get along.

It's literally how can we understand what's going on so we can productively work through it.

So, curiosity is superpower, and so is effective listening.

It's kind of the counterpart to it.

If we're truly curious, we're trying to understand, and that's gonna bring us into uh effective listening.

So we know that we are not very good at paying attention after 50 minutes.

So I have built in a very quick uh five minutes for a brain and uh body and brain break.

It's hard to say.

I would encourage folks to take this five minutes to like stand up, move around if you need to use the bathroom, do that.

It is on that clock 625.

When it says 6.30, we're gonna start again.

I'd ask everyone to be back in seats.

That's for professor life.

Yeah.

I can be very professor-like.

Eat snacks and you're gonna do that.

Yeah, get snacks.

Snacks are good too.

Did you replace Michelle with the.

I did.

Did you know Michelle?

Yeah, not one.

You have a chance to do it.

Look at you all.

Thanks for being back.

So we have a bit more I want to cover tonight.

So I want to talk about effective listening.

And I fully appreciate that some of these skills may seem like, oh my gosh, of course, I know this stuff.

And again, I can just tell you, having worked with so many people, that most of us don't actually know this stuff.

And it's something I get to practice every day as somebody who teaches it.

So let's be real clear about what truly effective listening is.

I said this before, but I want to really drive it home.

It is listening to truly try to understand what the other person is trying to communicate.

This is just our conversation.

Like, where are people really coming from?

So this will be pretty obvious, but I want to drive it home.

It's a core skill for working through conflict.

You cannot productively work through conflict if you do not learn to effectively listen.

It's just not gonna happen.

It's core for collaborating, working together to work productively through conflict to solve problems.

It is also a core skill for coexisting together.

And that is, I think part of why we're having such a challenge as society is we have lost this ability to truly try to understand each other.

We can regain that ability.

In understanding listening, it's really helpful, and I think really important to understand some of the research on listening.

So research tells us that 35% of communication of actually understanding is coming through verbal.

And 65% is nonverbal.

It's not the words we're saying, it's other things.

It's how we're saying the words, it's our body language, everything else.

And similarly, we derive meaning 7% from the actual words spoken, 7%.

38% from tone, loudness, and way of speaking, and 55% from facial expression.

We're taking in a lot more meaning, not from actual words, but from everything else someone's doing.

And that's why when I say I'm not angry, you understand that very different than I'm not angry.

Right?

Those are two really different messages, right?

And this drives that home.

So also, on average, people speak at about 125 to 175 words per minute, but we can process at 400 to 800 words per minute.

So even when there's a fast speaker like me, your brain can still process much faster than I can convey information.

So what does that mean?

It means that you're like, well, what am I gonna make for dinner?

And like, what you know, your brain is doing other things because it can.

So many of us can relate to that, like, oh yeah, a lot of times when people are talking, like, I've kind of taken it in, but I'm kind of somewhere else.

Right?

And all this points to how effective listening is truly an act of will.

We have to choose to be there and to fully take it in.

And partially when we're listening, but we're not fully listening, we're not paying full attention to those other things that are communicating meaning.

So, how do you effectively listen?

So, first and foremost, none of the other skills work if you don't bring the intention.

Really coming in with the intention to truly understand is the foundation of all of it.

Practicing curiosity, coming to it with a conversation with I don't actually know what's going on, and I want to understand.

I mean, you'll see me do this a lot with my body language.

Seems so simple, but it's so hard for us.

Most of us are filling in the blanks with assumptions.

We think we already know what they're gonna say.

They say something, but we're hearing something slightly different.

We're processing it through our lens.

Right?

So this is a very cultivated skill.

Being attentive.

So just being patient being there with them, which again is hard to do because our brains can be doing other things other than just taking in the words.

Um, and really paying attention to all those different forms of communication.

Being inviting.

So listening without judgment, people can tell when you are judging them.

Right?

And they will shut down, they will tell you something different than what they meant to tell you, they will keep their truths to themselves, they will go on the defense, right?

They will do a bunch of things because judgment is basically like an attack.

As soon as I bring judgment to something to someone, it feels like an attack.

And play with me here.

If I come at you and throw a punch, which is an attack, what does your body language want to do?

Okay, see some of this.

Show me, show me.

See some of this.

I see some dodging.

What else have we got?

Punching back.

Yeah, usually it's some form of attack, defend, right?

Those are kind of things maybe dodging is avoiding, right?

So when you pass judgment on someone and they feel it, they literally are going to like, I now need to protect myself.

Right?

You felt it too.

So recognizing the ways that we attack each other that maybe we don't think of as attacks becomes really important because so much of what happens in conflict is we start to feel threatened, and then we dysregulate.

And like I was saying, our little lizard brain fires, and all of a sudden it's putting a bunch of chemicals into our body that are saying, I need to protect myself right now.

So you can't you can't listen when that happens.

Your prefrontal cortex, the part of your brain that is curious and creative and that can listen to understand, goes offline as soon as that happens.

So listening without judgment, and part of all of this is also asking effective questions.

So a lot of times we think of listening as like I sit here and I listen, right?

I take it in.

Yes, and to truly understand, a lot of times you need to ask questions.

So we'll talk about effective questions in a second.

Clarifying.

So a place we can go really wrong is we're processing what somebody says through our lens, or forming a bunch of interpretations, it's how our brain operates.

And so we're forming some meaning that is not actually what they meant.

And if we're truly trying to understand, then we want to clarify.

Right?

And just saying, well, I think I'm hearing this, am I hearing that correctly?

Right?

Or it seems to me that that was upsetting for you.

Am I hearing that correctly?

Right?

Just allows us to make sure we're taking in meaning the way that it actually is coming through for someone.

But also listening is a two-way street.

When you are being listened to, you will often learn a lot about yourself.

You will get a lot more clarity, right?

I had a great example in this group of just some people asking some good questions, helped somebody understand a lot better.

Oh, now that you asked that question, it's making me think.

Right?

So effective listening is also helping somebody get clarity so they can communicate effectively.

Confirming, right?

Especially when that's important and decisions have been made.

So every time I meet with my boss, I say, here's what I'm taking away from this meeting.

Am I hearing that correctly?

Did I get that correctly?

Right.

I ask my team members when they meet with me if it's important to make sure that we've got a summary that could be like in writing.

Because a lot of times things get lost in translation.

Right?

Could it just be with you know your significant other about how you're gonna raise the kids and saying what I'm taking away from this conversation is this, this, and this, are those the right things?

So a lot of times we walk away thinking we had the same conversation, but we did not have the same conversation.

How do you?

Yeah.

So that's a very common, it's mirroring, right?

When you hear something, you're supposed to repeat it back every now and then.

Or reflective listening is another term.

It sounds remote.

If someone knows what you're doing, it sounds disingenuous.

It's like how do you avoid that?

Yeah.

Intention is really important, right?

So if you go through this like active listening, like I need to do this, and like these are a bunch of hacks or s or skills but without intention, it will come through.

I'm not kidding.

Like if you do not bring the intention up, I'm really here and I truly want to understand, all the rest of it doesn't matter.

It's just a bunch of hacks, basically, and people will feel that.

That doesn't mean that people won't feel it, because people are not used to being listened to in this way.

Right.

So I think that being if we're authentic, we can have a sense of like this might be a good time for me to clarify, right?

Or this seems like an important thing, or something's not being said right now.

Right?

So some might be like, well, it didn't really bother me, right?

And if I'm doing this with my length, my body language, I'm probably saying I'm not super comfortable right now, right?

So you might say, Well, I hear you saying that, but it seems to maybe it was bothersome.

Am I picking am I missing that?

Right?

And they can still say no, that's fine, they're not ready to go there.

But a lot of times people be like, that actually is a gift you've just given them.

So it doesn't need to be like you say a sentence, now I say the sentence back to you.

You say you're like, that's not what we're talking about.

Right?

We're talking about those key moments.

And again, especially if something seems like some it's sometimes it's like they said this, but you think they're saying this, right?

And so sometimes the clarifying is, well, I'm here you saying this, and I'm kind of wondering if this was what happened, but I just want to make sure I'm understanding.

And you'll notice when I model everything is a question, right?

So if I'm checking with you, I'm reflecting back and I'm saying, Did I hear that right?

Am I getting that right?

Am I missing something?

Because I'm inviting you to co-create with me.

When I just make a statement at you, I am kind of like, take this thing, right?

If I give you this, and like, okay, like what do you need to hand back to me?

So a good rule is everything is an inviting question, actually, is really helpful.

It won't necessarily solve that problem, and I appreciate your awareness of that concern.

And people always joke about like being married to a facilitator.

My partner would say the same of like, oh, you're doing the reflective listening thing on me.

But he'd also be the first to say that it's really helpful, actually, when it matters.

And you don't have to do this in every conversation, right?

These are the things of when it matters.

We're talking particularly about conflict situations, and they're good to practice in all conversations.

Because a lot of times we're having more challenging conversations than we realize, right?

We're like, oh, I didn't think that was a big deal, and then they storm off, right?

So I don't know if that helps, but a few things to think about.

Um, okay, and so the other key thing, and that's I often hear from my students that this is just so radical for them when they start practicing it, is pausing.

So we're trying to take in information, we're trying to process it, and then we're ready to say something like immediately after they finish their sentence.

Like, what kind of respect is that for the information we've just taken in?

There's sort of a basic logic to it of if we're really trying to process what's being shared with us, we need to pause and we need to process it.

But we also need to create space for other people to finish their thinking or kind of let their brain go where it needs to go.

I do a lot of interviews for research, and I can tell you time after time, through learning to leave just a little extra, almost awkward time after like somebody finishes their response to a question.

It's across the board, somebody will say, you know what?

Now that I think about it, and they share like the gold of whatever it is I really needed to hear.

Just leaving that little extra space, which maybe felt a little awkward to me, allowed their brain to kind of click into like, oh, this is the important thing.

So even just practicing that little piece can be so liberating for what comes out of conversations and it's so doable.

And yet most of us are like thinking about the next thing we're gonna say why the person's talking so that we can fill that space, right?

And again, I see some nodding heads, like we've all been there.

I still find myself doing it sometimes.

And through practicing these skills, I actually find myself much more rarely, very rarely doing that.

Okay, so I just want to drive home you and it's an interesting thing to think about.

We don't learn, we don't expand our world, and we don't create new things by making assumptions, right?

If I already know what you're gonna say, well, I'm not gonna learn, I'm not gonna expand my world, and I'm not gonna create something new.

I've already kind of blocked off the possibilities.

Same with judgments and same with statements.

I train a lot of people to negotiate.

One of my key pieces of advice to them is ask effective questions in the negotiation, and then I watch them negotiate and they're just making statements at each other.

It's like a game of ping pong.

Nobody's learning anything, they're not finding opportunities to create value, they're not understanding what really matters, right?

You're just shooting yourself in the foot.

And we do this all the time.

And it's a statement that my um one of my colleagues uses all the time, but it's a good one, right?

The idea that assumptions make an ass out of you and me.

We often fill in the blanks with things that do not serve us, things that are so wrong, things that preclude possibilities.

So I really encourage people to think about where are you making assumptions?

Like, oh, there's that person from the community who's always outspoken, like I don't even want to talk to them.

Right?

I understand why you feel that way.

Yep, yeah, you all know what I'm talking about.

Right?

And I'm not saying you don't but when you don't listen to them, and then they show up next time.

Oh, wow, okay, we're told I'm a baby kill.

That's that's intense.

Yeah.

Right?

But so here's an interesting thing.

This is what I mean by ego.

And this is so liberating.

And I can tell you as somebody who's in the hot spot in conflict all the time.

That stuff's hard to hear, right?

Somebody comes to me and says, I think you're terrible facilitator, which has not happened, but maybe will someday, right?

It's very easy to be like, oh no, I am a terrible person, right?

I am a baby killer.

No, I'm not, I know I'm not, right?

But your brain takes that instead of being like, this isn't about me.

Somebody is projecting their discomfort on me.

And I'm not gonna make that mine.

I'm gonna sit here with them and say, I hear you're really upset.

I'm gonna validate that they have strong emotions.

I'm not gonna validate the statement, which is not true and not helpful.

But as soon as I make it about me, I can't be there with them in the fact that this is their big emotions.

As soon as I say, this isn't about me, I'm here to help.

Again, body language, we can say, I hear you're really upset.

Would you like to talk more about that?

Can you help me understand what you're upset about?

You can use all these skills.

And it is amazing how fast you can watch someone de-escalate if they're truly effectively listened to.

Right?

If you are physically at threat, we're talking about something totally different, right?

But just angry, dysregulated humans, if we can sit with them in their discomfort and not validate their positions or the things they're asking for, but just that they have those strong emotions and effectively listen to them.

Again, it is amazing how much work that can do.

Um, so again, we learn, we expand our world, and we create new things by being curious, by effectively listening and by asking good questions.

So, final little nuggets on this.

What is an effective question?

I've mentioned this a couple times.

Effective questions are questions that help you truly understand what's going on for someone, right?

They are questions that help you get the information so you can truly understand.

And in general, it is a good practice to open ask open-ended, non-leading questions.

It's not always the case, but on average, it is gonna be much more helpful to ask open-ended questions and non-leading questions.

So, open-ended questions are questions that elicit more than a yes, no, maybe response.

So, closed-ended is basically like yes, no, maybe, right?

So, do you care about that?

Yes, no, instead of how do you feel about that?

Um, the whole idea is to encourage people to share their full range of experience or emotions.

And leading versus non-leading questions, a leading question is one that pushes somebody in a certain direction.

So, again, if I say, well, I'll should give you some examples in a second.

Non-leading questions are again just saying, where do you need to go here?

So let me illustrate with some examples.

So something that would be close-ended and leading would be you care about that, don't you?

So I'm pushing you in a certain direction, and I'm kind of giving you the small little range of answers.

A closed-ended non-leading would be, do you care about that?

Still giving you a yes-no, maybe response, but I'm not pushing you in a certain direction.

An open-ended leading question would be something like, This is clearly an important issue, how do you feel about it?

Right?

I'm saying you should care about it, but how do you feel about it?

Right?

I'm pushing in a certain direction.

And something that's truly open-ended and not leading is just simply how do you feel about this issue?

How does it affect you?

Right?

I'm just giving you all the space to share what's relevant for you.

So the research is really clear.

Being heard is a fundamental human need.

And in line with this, people are typically better listeners when they've had a chance to share.

So one of the key things I do with every audience I work with, and I kick myself if I forget to do it, is to start my training or my talk by having people engage.

Because you all will be much better listeners to me if you had a chance to get your voice in the room, or at least like put your hand up and share.

We know this about humans.

In line with that, often other people don't listen to us because they don't feel heard.

And you might be well, why do I have to give the gift?

Why aren't they giving me the gift?

Because you're the one who took the training, because you're the one who's stepping up and get an exercise leadership, because you're the one with the awareness.

Right?

This is something you can offer.

It's help me help you.

The whole idea of productively working through conflict, help me help you.

Just like the thumb wrestling game, right?

Just like the story of the orange.

Help me help you so we can get a better individual outcome.

But to do that, we're gonna have to work together.

If we want to resolve some conflict, I can sit here and wait for you to listen to me, but it's probably not gonna get anywhere, or I can say, I'm gonna start by listening to you, and I'm gonna trust that if I do that well, it's gonna reciprocate, and if nothing else, I have more information.

I can make better decisions now because I have more to work with.

I understand what matters to you.

So whether or not we realize it, just being heard is often our one of our most important interests.

Like I was saying before, it's a gift you can give so easily to someone, and it might resolve their issue more than like you know, substantively addressing their concern about whatever planning decision.

And often, and this is like the case, say in a job setting, you know, you'd be like, I need a raise, I need a raise.

But what you really need is to feel heard and considered.

Your boss isn't respecting your opinion, right?

So that raise, you get that raise and you still don't feel very good.

So I think we can all find examples where this is relevant in our life as well.

So finally, again, just like I've been saying, this all this stuff takes practice.

It is like the most simple in theory and so hard in reality because we have to rewire our brains.

I know for me I came from an intense Italian family where like the only way you got a word in at the dinner table was to like jump in whenever you had a chance.

So when I showed up at college and my roommate told me, you finished my sentences for me and I don't like it, I was like, what?

I did not realize that I did that because that's how we communicated in my family.

And it was very clear that was not serving me in that relationship.

She would get so angry every time I do it.

So I became very aware of like that's not serving me.

I need to work on it, right?

And all of us will have those things that you will leave today in our next training with, and I just really encourage you to hold them gently, not with judgment, it's just that you are the way you are for a reason.

It's how you've learned to be, and often it's not serving us.

So to really hold that careful uh with compassion, but to also really lean into practicing.

And just to remind folks that every day, every interaction is an opportunity to practice these skills.

Like to just go out and like the next time you're making a decision, like thinking about interests rather than positions, the next time you're communicating with somebody, thinking about even just practicing the pause a little bit, right?

Picking one of these little skills and working with it.

To understand ourselves, we need to practice effective listening internally.

And like I said, this earlier, like these skills are as relevant inwardly focused as they are outwardly focused.

So, for example, a lot of times we'll show up and be like, I'm angry.

If you sit with that and really figure out what you're truly feeling, anger is almost always hiding fear.

And when you undercover what's really going on for you, then you can deal with it.

Right?

Well, what am I so afraid of?

So don't underestimate just the power of learning to really listen effectively to yourself.

Also, our bodies are very wise and they are communicating a lot of information.

So starting to pay attention to your body as a way of listening.

So a lot of times people recognize like when they experience conflict, their heart rate goes up or they start to shut down.

That's because their body is perceiving a threat.

Okay, I perceive conflict as a threat.

Why do I do that?

And how can I unlearn that?

Because it's not helping me.

Um, and finally, just drive home.

Again, these are like simple things, but they're they're hard, they're really hard, simple but not easy, and they're so worth it.

So, in terms of setting yourself up for success, um, I just want to drive home, and we'll talk more about this in the next session.

If you are dysregulated, meaning if your body is in a threat response, fight, flight, freezer, appeaths, even in a sort of light level, like I said earlier, you are not physically capable, your brain cannot listen.

So I've learned, and I didn't do it tonight because it's just a time, but I've learned with most of my trainings, I might make you do this next time to take a minute and have people just breathe to arrive when they come into a class or training.

Because if our brains are thinking about all the other things that are stressing us out, they're literally not ready to learn.

So if you're gonna have a conversation with somebody and it's important, taking the time to just make sure your body and your mind are calm and present and regulated, which is a skill in and of itself, is so important.

Because a lot of us are making it very hard to work through things because we're bringing this dysregulation to a lot of what we're we're dealing with, whether it's conversations with our kids or the planning commission meeting.

So again, just when it's really important, I really encourage everybody to take responsibility for getting yourself into a good state where you can meaningfully engage.

Okay, um, I'm gonna go over what to expect between now and the next session, and then I won't want to take any remaining time we have for whatever's stirring up for folks questions, observations, insights, ahas.

So between now and the next session, since it's gonna be a month away, there are two things I want you all to do.

Hopefully, you'll do them, they're not big asks.

So the one that actually takes a tiny little bit of time is to do a listening self-assessment.

So I'm gonna show you on my next slide.

I have the little assessment.

It's very simple.

So I'm gonna ask you to do that, and there's a couple questions that go with it.

And I'd love for you all to do that, and then bring your reflections on that to our our meeting on October 2nd.

Also, since it's a month away, I'm just gonna ask folks to revisit these slides.

I will send you all the slides, Brittany.

I'm gonna send stuff to you and have you send it out if that's okay.

Um, and some handouts, but just to review them so that when we come to the next session, we're like remembering where we got to and what we talked about, because it's gonna build, we're not gonna recap any of this stuff.

So the listening self-assessment looks like this.

I will also send you a handout that has these same questions, but it's a couple very easily answerable questions about how you listen.

I encourage you to be really honest with yourself and maybe even ask a loved one how they would respond for you if you're willing to be that courageous.

Um, fill this out.

It is you don't need to turn it in, I don't need to know your score, that's not the goal.

It's to help you figure out maybe where you're strong in your listening skills, and maybe where you could do a little work where it would be helpful.

Um, so that's my ask of you.

When I send these slides my lizard brain just engaged.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I gotta go.

Yeah.

So that's really it.

Thank you for sharing that funny little thing because it's so real.

As soon as somebody's like, oh no, I'm gonna be graded, right?

Like, not saying that was the thing, right?

But or like, oh no, I have to ask somebody what kind of a listener I am, oh, I'm gonna get a 360 review, ego.

This part of me that feels like it has to be protected, my identity starts to come up.

And as soon as the ego feels threatened, our physiological threat response goes off.

Yeah, my wife cannot know about those.

Yeah, there's probably a lot of guys who actually in that same boat, and some women.

Um, so our body or our bodies will literally act as if it's a bear in the woods when our identity feels at risk.

And so that's I mean, it's there's we don't need to go into this right now, but when you're dealing with conflict and people feel like their identities are on the line, there is a lot of work that has to be had to help unravel that because you cannot go anywhere.

As soon as people are in that, like, I need to protect myself identity, you're in the same mode as I need to protect myself from a bear in the woods.

So it's just a thank you for sharing that because it's a really important nugget.

Um, and something for us all to start to become aware of.

And it goes back to having that comment of like you're a baby killer, right?

Which feels terrible.

I am sorry you've had to deal with that.

I'm sorry our public officials get those kinds of statements.

I'm sorry people say those things to each other.

Right?

It does, I'm not condoning the behavior at all, but what I can say is we do not help get to a better place when we like take that on.

And it's it's like advanced humaning work to be able to say, like, I recognize this person is hurting.

So it was not okay that they said that.

And what can I do?

It's productive right now.

So just a little nugget on that.

Okay, we have a few minutes.

I'd love any other insights, shares, questions.

I know it's late in the evening, I've got the yons too.

Yeah.

I I'm wondering how to get email.

Bring brings up those feelings, you know, in your body and shouldn't.

How do you respond when you don't count the yeah, such a great question?

That was per my last email.

Yeah.

The one you sent or the one you received.

Don't send those emails.

That's a good first one.

Yeah.

Um, so much in that question.

Thank you for asking that.

So one key thing I do want to know is we are constantly like throwing grenades at each other.

And I truly believe nothing could be more important than nervous system management right now, because again, we're just having all these things coming at us that feel like attacks.

And I um adore my PhD advisor, but he would send these, he sent so many emails to so many people, and he would just send these emails that were like, I think he thought they were business-y, but they were not kind.

Like he sent one to one of the master students I over saw that said major problems all on caps as the subject.

So I get a call from a master student saying, like, I think Larry hates me.

You know, I got a talker off the wall.

When we're in reality, it's like, I need you to fix some stuff, right?

So we are sending communication, particularly through email text, these little forms where the meaning we're conveying is just it's lost.

And I share that just because like don't be that person, right?

Take an extra moment and look through something, and you can't fully assume like how somebody would you know understand it, but just take a little time.

And be like, am I being clear?

Am I being kind?

Right.

So one of things I haven't mentioned, but it's so core for effective conflict resolution is kind and firm.

You can be so kind and so firm.

These are my interests, these are my needs.

How can we resolve it?

Right?

I can be kind, but I'm like saying this is what needs to happen.

We can do that in our communication as well.

So just don't be that person.

It's the first piece.

If you are receiving that, we tend to read all communications through our lenses.

Again, I would get these emails from my PhD advisor and I'd be like, oh no, I'm a terrible PhD student and I'd like to have all this stuff.

And then I would meet with them and like that was not at all his story.

Right.

So being mindful of the stories we're imposing on all communications, but especially those where we're we don't have all the other cues of what the meaning is.

Really important.

Good idea to like read it, let it sit, come back to it 20 minutes later.

Do I still have the same meaning?

A lot of times you will not.

So that's something we can do as well.

If it's clear that this person is really upset and they're whatever and it needs to get resolved, then taking a moment to be like, ooh, I can feel becoming aware.

I can feel my system dysregulating right now.

This feels like a threat.

Okay, well, that's what bodies do to protect us, but this is not a bear in the woods.

Taking that time to come back into real regulation, whether it's through breathing or just giving it some time.

And then asking, like, what would be a productive thing to do right now?

So sometimes it's just uh sending an email saying thank you for your thoughts.

End of story.

I don't need to do anything else with it.

Right?

Sometimes it's uh like wow, this is probably a real community concern, writing back and saying, Would you be willing to come talk to me about this?

Right?

But not adding fuel to the fire is a really key thing.

And so just thinking about like giving yourself that time regulating so you can think about what's a productive thing.

Maybe talking to a friend and saying, do you think this would be productive?

Do you under read this email the same way?

And again, if it's really a conversation that needs to be had, not trying to resolve that over text or email.

Like we that is not in effect a place to resolve differences.

It is just inflaming things.

So as much as possible, if it really is a concern, either just acknowledging the concern, saying thank you, I'm hearing these are the concerns, thank you for sharing, end of story.

If like we really need to resolve it, then probably getting people that to have a real conversation.

I hope that helps.

Got a few more minutes.

Any questions?

Okay.

I'm gonna leave this slide up, but I will also send it.

So I just want to note there are a couple additional resources.

So I mentioned I run the environmental dispute resolution program.

Our mission is to foster a culture of collaboration around environmental and natural resource issues, but we also work on a lot of community planning issues.

And we particularly try to do so through helping people be more skillful in working through conflict.

So on our EDR blog, we have a lot of blogs on topics related to what we've been covering today.

We have some free tools and resources if you want to learn more.

We also offer an annual collaboration certificate course, which is a very in-depth training on how to productively work through conflict and collaborate in the public sector.

Um and then if you're really interested in just like continue to get our resources, there's our email list.

So just know that will be on the slides that we will send out after today.

Can I also send out a few handouts that go deeper into these concepts or just recap key ideas?

Please feel free to share stuff far and wide if you uh want to share it with your wife and have a conversation.

You're welcome to do that.

That body language says so much to me.

Yeah.

Um share with your kids, etc.

Um, and I'm happy to stay if anybody has any like personal questions and wants to chat for a little bit, I'm happy to stay for a little bit.

So thank you all for being here.

Thanks for taking these things seriously, and I look forward to seeing you in a month.

Okay.

You're dismissed.

Uh city business.

Great.

I'll take a motion.

Hey, I was already doing a second, all those in there.

Okay.

Great.

Yeah, we'll go.

I forget about all this official city business.

Donnie, did you ever run across Lyle Kerman when you're