Hello, welcome to our hello, there we go.

Uh welcome to our Tuesday evening budget workshop.

We're joined here by administrator Kane Rath and uh Director uh Roy, uh among other people.

Thank you, all the department heads for being here.

Uh administrator Kenrath, we had some questions uh from the last meeting uh that you can answer for us, please.

All right, thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Yeah, so to follow up on our April 23rd meeting, we had a number of questions uh and information to get back to you with.

Um so we have uh a bit of a list here, uh and we'll bring up some uh department heads uh to speak in specifics about a number of these.

So we'll start with um we had a question regarding overtime and potential overtime savings uh in the departments.

This mostly impacts uh the fire department, police department of public works.

Um so we did sit down uh and discuss these budgets.

Um, you know, uh I think as we we anticipated last time there isn't, you know, a large amount of savings, I think to be achieved here.

We did want to bring up the departments to talk a little bit more in depth um regarding their overtime budgets.

You did hear from Chief Karen.

Um, you know, his largely is contractual, uh with the 17 he has to have on.

Um but uh Director Gagner, if he's here, maybe we could start with him uh and he can just talk about some of the specifics regarding his overtime lines.

And then we can uh move to the police department.

Good evening.

Uh Kevin Gany, public works director.

Um we've went through several of our overtime accounts.

Uh last meeting I went over uh page 18.

Uh there's no descriptions on those, so we're looking at page 18 again.

Uh overtime 4311 down through four three nine zero are public works accounts.

Uh some of the larger accounts are um highway, winter operations and open spaces.

Um in looking at those accounts.

Um the public works uh is dealing with uh emergencies, uh potholes, uh everything related to the streets.

Uh sidewalk sweeping is is done under stormwater, so it's chartered out to that.

Um if we look at our winter operations, uh we talked a little bit about that where um it's all staff are plowing.

So anytime uh water and sewer staff, uh anybody in other divisions outside of highway, all those divisions have crew that plow.

So they're either part of an A team or a B team, but any overtime occurred by winter ops is put into this overtime account.

So um last time uh we're requesting 255,000 in the FY27 request.

Uh currently uh we're at 322,000 spent for FY26.

So we we plan on an average of storms and cutting that budget.

You know, if we have a drought year or a dry year, may realize it, or it could be like this year when we go over.

Um one of the other ones is uh open spaces.

So we looked at our open space account and I've got uh Deputy Director Bates here to go into any additional detail if you want.

Um but those are that highway that open space account is to address all the parks in the city that we that we mow and maintain, uh litter collection, leaf collection, uh mowing, uh as well as the different playgrounds in those parks, uh as well as cemeteries and other spaces that just vacant lots that are city owned that were required to maintain.

So uh those spaces typically because of the staffing issues and depending on the type of season we have, uh wet weather, we're out there mowing on overtime just because of capacity.

So if we have a drought year, we could be under and mowing less, but we're also trying to stay to the the mowing heights that it's in city ordinances as every other uh lot out in the city is being held to.

So um we also do Christmas uh setup and Christmas lighting in that open space account.

Uh we do handle emergencies, um so litter cleanup that's happened on nights or weekends.

Um so you know, those overtime things are happening because of capacity issues on the crew.

Uh and if if we trimmed any of these two budgets that I went over, then we would be looking at uh slower response time, um large storm events, uh we'd be tapping staff in and our primary routes are the arterials.

Uh the open space account, we'd be looking at impacting those parks and open spaces, uh Christmas lights and those type of events.

So without directly impacting services, we you know we feel we can't cut uh those budgets without impacting services to the community.

Just real quickly, while we have we have have you up here also, uh there was some discussion about potentially contracting out some of the mowing or some of the open space work.

Um and from what Deputy Director Bates told us, we actually did a look at that a number of years ago, I think it was 2016 or 17.

We did actually put that out to bid.

Um and what they found was the cost savings were were not there, and also the quality of some of the contractors were not ones that we would be comfortable with as far as handling some of the services.

So any more to add on that as far as potential savings or the idea of of you know contracting out some of these services?

Absolutely.

So we discussed a little bit more internally after meeting with administration and going over these lines.

Um we do have specialty equipment equipment.

We have large mowers to address uh some of these large spaces to mow as efficiently as we can.

Uh we have specialty um sweepers and field maintenance for the turf.

Um so that's some of the startup issues that that we saw in 2016 is that the level of equipment that a contractor, it's not a regular small landscape person that's that's gonna go and address this with some of the special equipment we have.

Um of the factors that we looked at too is it all comes down to personnel hours.

So we we've gained efficiencies on a lot of our new equipment.

Um we we had staff over in rec and moved over to PW.

Um it's moving personnel around if you re-orc.

It's it's the same staff time.

And then if you look at contracting out, uh there's some of the startup costs.

So we're buying equipment at government rate, uh, we're paying fuel, and our fuel do not have any tax uh road escalators.

Um and we do we start dealing with insurances, right?

So if you have a a subcontractor, they've got to have cart verge to doing work on city property.

So those are factors that weigh in on a bid, in addition to some of the some of the logistics outlined by administrator Kane Rath.

Uh yes, questions for George Organi.

Um Councilman Long Champs.

Thank you, Mayor.

Excuse me.

Can you tell me um how much money we are spending on uh mowing the parks and stuff right now?

Sure.

Uh Deputy Bates, do you have that information?

I will say one thing I left off.

Uh you know, we don't ask our contractors to to do it for free and break-even.

We are a nonprofit uh in public works, uh, and so contractors come in there with some some profit margin as well.

Yes, so mowing um overtime was about 24,000 in overtime.

In overtime only, yes.

Okay.

How much is it uh that we're actually that's allotted or that you put in there for the mowing, not talking overtime, sorry.

Straight time, regular time?

Right.

I was ready to talk about overtime.

Counselor, in long time, I'm sure you're talking about what is the total cost in terms of wages for mowing.

Exactly.

Okay.

I do not have that available, but we'll we'll look it up and try to get it to you in a few moments, if not in an email follow-up.

Yep.

Uh yeah, uh we'll come back to you.

Uh Counselor Roy.

Uh thank you.

Um so after your explanation of um going out to bid and all that stuff for open spaces, then I would I would think that um maybe um adopt a spot wouldn't work either.

Like having people out there to adopt a spot and take care of instead of us having to go out there.

So our each of our supervisors uh work directly with any volunteer groups that want to come in there.

And we do have several adopt a spots right here by uh Veterans Bridge.

Uh there's different spaces that that have been picked up, and there's some agreements that are in place with so you know we want to make sure the volunteer is working in a safe space and a safe manner and and we support those groups when we can.

Uh we also have a local artist that's looking to do a memorial uh for the October shooting.

So she's trying to create a space uh coming from Lincoln Street through the walkway across uh Jenkins Bridge into Auburn and have some connectivity.

So uh our arborist is working and open space crews are working with those those people that that want to do that.

Because I think you know there are a lot of businesses out there that are startups or whatever that would really want their names on these spots, right?

Uh so I appreciate that.

And if we can get that on a web page or something like that to uh announce it to a lot more people, maybe that could be something we do.

So Veterans Park, uh there's a lot of volunteers that go into Veterans Park.

Uh we provide some free water and and be able to support that as well as our own trucks that go around and help maintain watering of these of these different areas.

Thank you.

Counselor Nagy.

Um you won't have the answer for this right now, but I but I would like to have it.

Um I would like uh breakdown of all of the city parks that we have and the associated cost with maintenance for each of the city parks.

I'd also like to have an idea of um the maintenance that we're doing on uh vacant lots.

Um so I can see that as well.

It one of the things that I would put forward just as an example, uh, on the corner of Montello Fair and College, there's a triangular space there that hosts uh bus stop on that sides at the moment that's defunct.

Um that's city property that we mow.

Um that is also fairly useless for for uses for the neighborhood.

And you know, I've I've advocated before to close Fair Street and sell that property to close that slip land on Fair Street and sell that property.

Uh if there are properties that we're holding on to that we have absolutely no plan to do anything with, but we're just going in and mowing them, maybe we should start to relinquish some of these properties.

So ultimately what I'd like to see is a breakdown of the cost to maintain each of these parks, a list of these parks, and then maybe we can decide whether or not we're going to divest of a couple of these parks, especially the pocket parks that for instance on the corner of Montello, Farron College.

I'm not quite sure what that property does for us on any level, um, but it could be a building lot, and if you got rid of that slip land, you'd reduce that traffic accidents and that co uh in that corridor.

Um the if we cut, like for instance, if we said, hey, let's take 10% off of the um open spaces um contra uh um totals for this year, is that going to adversely affect um what's happening right now?

So one thing I did fail to mention in in some of these, so electrical has it in there over time.

Uh I believe the open space account.

So um we talked about the in-kind services, so there are uh some of the different um setups for different activities that that nonprofits have come to you and we do in kind.

So it's either traffic control or uh litter collection and around in the different parks.

So um 10 percent, we can look at that, but like I said, it it if we're dealing with mowing and and those expenses, it depends on the year.

If we have a drought year and we're not out there mowing as frequently, then then those instances could see a reality.

Um we are we do have several uh fields that we do water uh and we're watering that so we we keep it uh strong enough to support soccer and and whatever is going on on those fields.

Uh Sumard Paint is one where we're trying to keep it strong so that when the balloon festival comes in, it's it's it's not muddy, it's not it's not worn down.

So we don't overwater it, uh, but we're trying to maintain good good healthy through those things.

Uh but we can get you that information that you requested.

I think uh Deputy Director Bates has a list right now, but we'll get we'll put the cost to it for each each park and and what you requested.

I would appreciate that.

From what I understand, the softball fields that we just took over, we're we've refused an MOU to the organizations that wanted to maintain those fields.

Is that correct?

I'm not sure officially that we've refused it.

I know that we've had discussion administration uh as well as with union because there are some contractual issues there.

Um maybe Deputy O'Malley might be able to speak to that status a little more, but I know we've had one in draft and in discussion.

Uh Deputy Minister O'Malley, did you want to speak to that?

Yeah, that wasn't refused.

Um there is a uh CBA with a public works uh union that does not allow volunteers to use power equipment to mow the lawn.

Um so we've met with um the union and we're going to have the city mow it.

They will do the setup, we're gonna drop off the the the chalk to line the field, you know, the quick dry, those kind of things, and they will maintain it that way, but the mowing will be done by the city.

And so just to clarify, any time uh uh volunteer group or let's say uh a neighborhood group says I want to uh uh maintain public space if they're using power tools that cannot be done because of contractual agreements.

That is correct.

Thank you.

Uh yes, Counselor Chidham.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Um Director Gagni, I know there's no fat in this budget.

We are coming to the point where we're gonna have to start cutting services in order to if we if we want to lower the tax rate.

So I understand your rationale for all of those overtime costs, which is what we're talking about right now.

Um but for example, if we eliminate the Christmas lighting in Dufrey and Plaza, um much of that I'm understanding is done on overtime.

That's a way to reduce services that is not going to be hugely painful to people.

It will be adversely affecting the city because everybody wants Christmas lights.

It it it helps the the joy of the city.

However, it's not essential.

So my approach to this is yes, we're going to have to start cutting services if if we want to get this tax rate down below 10, 11 percent increase over last year.

Um that's that's the question I'm gonna be asking continually of you and all the other department heads as well.

Yep.

Uh Deputy Director Bates, do you have the the cost of overtime for uh Christmas lights?

Um we do put up Christmas lights during straight time.

So if you'll see we'll have bucket trucks uh on Lisbon Street in different quarters.

So uh I think it's the the amount of and and that's the the shoulder season for us.

So we're trying to get ready for winter with with plowing events and whatnot.

So it's one more activity to add on some fairly small crews that are specific uh to those spaces.

So that's why we augment with some overtime.

Yeah, that amount is just shy of 4500 for Christmas lights over time only.

Thank you.

Yeah, this was example exemplary only.

I mean, uh I'm not picking on that.

I'm just looking at I've been talking to constituents about saying, do you want to pay an extra 10 to 11 to 12 percent uh on your taxes, or do you want to have your road not plowed until nine o'clock in the morning?

That's the level that I'm talking about.

And I'm getting some traction with constituents who say we can stand better a reduction in services from the city, whether it be garbage pickup or snow plowering, uh whatever.

We can stand that better than we can stand the hit that it's gonna take to our pocketbooks to maintain that level of service.

So that's the mindset that I'm trying to get across at this point.

Yep, and I appreciate that.

I'm trying to show a level of magnitude.

So we are doing as much as we can during straight time.

Our our winter operations uh is kept at at where it's at because of a lot of design uh planning and how we're using the brine system.

So we're actually going out and pre-treating the roads during straight time when we have that that time, right?

We instead of just doing on overtime.

So we're doing as much on straight time as we can for all these different activities.

And I appreciate your discussion of actually talking about services.

Uh because if we do cut these, then that's going to be our messaging when customers call us saying, can you do this?

Why is this taking longer?

Because we take a lot of heat.

Our our dispatch people are here tonight.

Um they're the ones receiving the calls as well as administration.

I'm sure you are people upset.

So we get it.

Uh and we're trying to answer and say yes to as much as possible.

But if a 10% cut across the board is it, then but when we start talking about actual services that are being changed, I think that's important.

Thank you.

Yes.

And certainly feel free to blame me.

It's me that cut the taxes that cut the services.

That's the only way we can make this happen.

Thank you.

Any uh further questions for uh Director Gagnier at this time.

Thank you.

And thank you, Director Bates.

So I think I'll ask uh Chief Connolly or Rep from the Police Department to come up and talk about their overtime.

Chief, welcome.

Thank you for coming.

Hi, thank you for having me.

So um I believe um Deputy Director O'Malley touched on this in the last meeting, but for the most part at the police department, it's it's fairly contractual.

It's it's based on personnel, replacement for vacations, things like that.

Um I can tell you that uh la this current year we're at 876, 701, which is um only a 15,000 or close to sixteen thousand dollar increase from last year.

And really what that comes down to is wages and colas, things along those lines.

Um the only contractual or the only built-in overtime that we have, and that again is contractual is our criminal investigation division.

Um we have one detective that's required to be on call for an entire week every um you know every week of the year.

Um and they're required to get 10 hours of overtime for that.

And again, that's contractual.

Um other than that, you know, we we make um adjustments as much as we can.

Um when we're hiring replacement um shifts, such as you know, somebody has a vacation day or a sick day off, uh, for example, third shift, we only hire for half that shift for a patrolman instead of a full eight-hour shift.

Uh when dealing with supervisors, same thing.

They only work five hours of a shift.

So we go only one supervisor and we go down to actually five officers overnight at times during certain portions of the night.

So we we really try to uh minimize it as much as possible.

Um, you know, the I I honestly don't see an area where we could um you know skimp, I guess, uh as far as it comes with the overtime, other than the the only thing that we could would be the in-kind services.

Um, you know, and and that's something that you know I know is important to the city to have some of those events, but uh we run around probably 40,000 a year uh for the PD and overtime for those the various um events in the city.

Anything you wanted to add, Administrator Kane Roth?

Uh no, I think she she covered up um questions.

Yeah, questions for the Chief.

Uh yes, Councilor Martel.

Thank you, Ms.

Mayor.

Uh Thanks for coming, Chief.

Uh the openings that we have for the police department for officers that are already built into the budget.

If you were able to hire those out, would that have any impact on your overtime?

Would your overtime in theory be able to go down if you had more officers, or would you just be able to staff more officers and still have the same overtime requirements?

I think that's certainly a possibility.

Um obviously when there's more officers off, you know what I mean?

There are we have less manpower, right?

That that becomes an issue.

There's potentially more overtime.

Um to be honest, it's been several years where we've actually been at full complement.

Um but I certainly think that would assist.

Uh thank you.

Yeah, my thoughts are you you had mentioned covering vacations and stuff like that.

If you have more staff, it just seems like there could be more street time built in rather than overtime.

Certainly.

I mean, we're we're running the bare minimum in a lot of cases now.

Yes.

I was able to go on and write along Saturday night, uh Friday night.

So I I was able to see uh your staff in action.

I thought they did a great job, so thank you for that too.

Thank you.

Counselor Najing.

Um Thank you.

Um Mr.

Mayor, um Chief, just really quickly.

The right now, how many officers are we down?

Uh so we have the two frozen positions.

Um technically nine, but down seven if you're counting the two frozen.

And what do you expect by the summer?

Um are there retirements coming?

Are there we definitely know that three people will be leaving by August.

Okay.

And so best case scenario if you don't hire, we'll be down nine.

Ten.

Ten.

Okay.

So ultimately I'm not too concerned about the overtime with with the police department at all.

I do know that with the police department, there is also a contractual agreement that stipulates that you work eight hour shifts and you start at 7, 3, and 11.

And so again, when we try to find efficiencies and we and we butt up against uh uh the contractual agreements, I think it's di difficult, you know.

Um but um other than that, you know, other than that contractual requirement, I I don't see how we cut more when we need police on the streets.

So Councillor Chitam.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Um I do not mean to put you on the spot, Chief, but I'm looking at the historical overtime.

Four years ago or five years ago, depending on how you count the overtime for uh patrol was $8,000.

It then went to $80,000 and remained there for two years and then had another tenfold jump in 2026 to $733,000.

Do you have an explanation for why those significant jumps?

Because that's the level that we've been maintaining uh thus far, although year to date now we're at $35,000 according to the figures I have out of uh $750,000 request.

I I don't have an answer for you, but I certainly can get it.

I have uh last year's, which was $733, and then um you know our request this year for $747.

Yes, yeah.

And uh these numbers are showing year to date uh and we are three-quarters of the way through the year.

I'm not sure when this was, so I don't know whether we're two-thirds, three quarters or what, but we're at $35,000 for patrol overtime.

Um that's that's concerning to me because extrapolating that out over the remaining the remainder of the fiscal year were will come nowhere near the three-quarter million dollars that's been requested, or that was spent uh or that was approved for uh the 2026 budget.

Mr.

Mayor.

Uh Deputy Administrator O'Malley, did you have to do that?

I do have I do have that page in front of me.

Uh I'm not sure if the uh counselor is reading the right line.

If you go back to 2023 and 2024, the overtime was budget was $565,000 and $142.

Um, I believe that was when we got that increase of offices about five of six when we offered a pay increase.

Uh then as you go along, um, as the numbers of offices have dropped down, we've increased um from 542,000 up to 726,000 in 2025.

Then it was 733 in 2026.

Now we're requesting she's requesting 747, 897 for 2027.

So I'm not sure if you're reading the correct line, Counselor.

Uh there must be a problem with my spreadsheet then, because uh those numbers don't show up on the overtime line for patrol.

So if if I I will assume the responsibility for that double check and double check that.

Uh counselor, or sorry, one second, councilman.

Counselor Long Champs.

Uh Chief, did you want to add anything else at this time?

No.

Uh or were you finished uh for right this second?

Sure.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, thank you.

Um yes, counselor long champs.

Thank you for being here, uh Chief.

I guess it really boils down to a decision that we have to make on whether we exclude the in-kind uh donations for about 40,000.

Is that what you said roughly?

Is what I think.

Yeah, it's uh I think it's like 41,000 for the PD.

Forty or 40,143 is is what we are estimated to spend this year.

I mean that's really the only place that I've heard uh where we might be able to make a small dent.

And although I don't want to do that, um I do believe in the events.

Uh they do bring life to our city, and so I'm not sure that we should do that, but it looks like that may be the only place that we um can shed a little bit off the police department.

Thank you.

Uh Chief, you're talking about uh things like Balloon Festival, Dempsey Challenge, uh Liberty Festival.

Am I correct?

Yes, like Trek Across Maine, Lewiston Live, Holiday at the Plaza.

They're the the traditional ones that that tend to come to Lewiston every year.

Uh and you just mentioned a couple that are uh City of Lewiston events even.

Yes.

Okay, understood.

Um anything further, Councillor Longshamps.

Uh Counselor Nagyen, did you did you have your hand up?

Um I'm fine, Mr.

Mayor.

Thank you though.

Okay.

Uh any other anything else for our Chief Chief uh Conley, thank you so much.

Chief uh Conley, thank you so much.

Thank you.

Okay.

Uh Chief Karen did uh speak briefly at the last meeting regarding his uh contractual obligations also.

Um if there's interest we could bring him uh back up for further explanation.

Chief.

Uh yeah, Chief Karen is here.

Chief, we don't want you to feel left out.

Uh thanks.

Good evening.

So I think maybe a recap.

Um if you can just move the microphone closer to yourself.

And uh just talk about your your obligations.

Yes, I wasn't sure if you had any specific questions, but I know that the line um you did make mention that it was um that it was high, and and I know so uh the reason it is so large is because uh as I was explaining, is we have minimum man and we have 17 people on shift every day, and when someone is out, we have to replace them with overtime.

Um days there are days where no one's out, but there are days where there might be four or five people out, and it's a 24-hour shift of overtime.

We do have replacement personnel.

Uh we try to maintain one per shift, but if there's three vacancies that day, three people on vacation, two vacations and a sick leave, whatever it might be, uh I'm hiring overtime that day.

So I did um just do a quick look uh for the the trailing 12 months of uh what we've uh our actual overtime expenses, and it's 1,336,000, $884, $884.

And it breaks it down.

Um our largest category is vacation replacement at $665,000.

Um then we had sick replacement at $406,000 was the second.

But sick is um it's also personal days and uh there's some long-term sick leaves in there.

Um so if I understand you you have one floater that can shift around, but as soon as there's more than one person out, it's overtime.

Yeah, so there's one one per shift.

Right.

Okay.

Counselor Najing.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Uh thank you, Chief.

So each of the stations is required to have 17 people, or is it 17 people across the 17 people on duty across all the stations.

Across all the stations.

And is that that's a contractual agreement and not like a requirement through OSHA or a state?

It is contractual.

Okay.

And again, the do when we pull somebody in for overtime, is is a uh fire shift 24 hours, or are we paying for 24 hours of overtime?

It is so it would have to be covered.

The shift is 24 hours, so when someone is hired for an overtime shift, it's for the 24-hour shift.

So if we were to adopt a scheduling system like Auburn uses, for instance, we would have to actually completely change uh the contractual agreements.

I was under the assumption that Auburn was on a 24-hour schedule.

Well they are on a 24-hour schedule, but they have significantly reduced overtime because of the case schedule that they use.

Um I think they have one ambulance that they staff on a daily basis, but the rest of the department is uh running on four shifts 24 hours a day.

So it's just it's just one unit that they're staffing.

Um I don't know how many hours per week.

Okay.

But so just so you understand like what the perception is.

Uh ultimately, if that overtime is both required and guaranteed, uh the feedback I've gotten from quite a few taxpayers is that's actually base pay, even though they're working more hours.

Um so you know, it it's uh it's like a guaranteed salary.

And so um I don't know if we can't change that due to the contractual agreement.

Again, you know, three times in a row we run into three serious uh issues with trying to find deficiencies based on and it's not just your department um based on the contractual agreements that are in place that are holding us back from being more efficient with our spending.

And I will say this, I am well aware of the fact that we do not have a lot of money to fund departments, and we have run into situations where we have def defunded uh or not defunded, but not properly funded departments in the past.

It's just trying to find places where we can save money right now is very difficult when we're told that we can't make changes based on what was agreed to in contracts.

So further uh questions for the chief.

Uh thank you very much.

Okay.

Back to you, Administrator King.

Uh the next area we explored was uh reducing the service choice of service life of vehicles by at least 20 percent.

Um so I think uh we'll invite again Director Gagnier back up.

If you can speak to this issue.

Uh good evening.

Um I had referenced uh when we first discussed this on the LCIP.

Uh I feel like I think it's page 65 is the list of all the the vehicles that are proposed.

Um looked at it with our fleet superintendent as well as uh Deputy Director Bates.

So the we have a couple new vehicles uh that we're requesting.

Uh one is a trailer dump with log uh and brush loader.

Uh help us pick up brush and and be more efficient and in a better fashion that reduces workers' comp.

Uh the other one that we're looking at is a spill response trailer.

Uh that would be new to the fleet.

Uh that one's 27,000.

The the uh trailer dump with log brush loader is uh 87,500.

Other than that, we these are existing vehicles on the list.

Um the request to add 20 percent more.

So going down through uh the loader is uh 17,000 uh 17 years old.

Uh it's 450,000 for replacement.

Uh that piece of equipment takes 14 to 16 months to replace.

So currently it's uh it's a two-wheel drive.

It's a front wheel drive.

We've lost the rear diff in that.

So you know, waiting 14 to 16 months, that might have a large uh failure, and we could be down that unit.

So uh just giving you some of the logistics.

Um couple of the pickups, they're currently 13 and 16 years old.

Uh those are three to six months to get.

Uh some of our other items, uh the six-wheel plow truck and sander, uh, that's 14 years old, uh, takes 12 to 14 months.

Uh Weldern shop truck, uh 12 to 14 months to get, it's currently 19 years old.

Um if you go down through there, uh remote steep train mower.

Uh that one's actually replacing a unit.

Uh that unit that we have is 19 years old.

We're looking to get better efficiencies with that uh and actually mow in areas that we currently cannot with the the current mower we're looking to replace.

Uh the crane chassis, that's uh uh a 2005, that's 21 years old.

Uh and the street sign service truck that's that's 15 years old.

Um, you know, depending on what is pushed back, uh and we we can't predict, but I know that our fleet we're trying to, and I've heard in the past it's like run it into the ground.

Well, some of them we are.

Uh some of them we have uh potential failures that would sign line that unit uh and have us either rent one or go without a unit.

Um so we do keep uh light trucks are about 10 to 12 years on average, depending on its use uh and maintenance, and and then sometimes the the make and model.

Uh so we'd be adding two years on to that to go 20 percent.

Our heavy trucks we try to keep 15 to 18 years.

Uh that would be adding three to four years.

Uh and then heavy equipment, it's fifteen to twenty years, and we try to rotate that uh so we're not just abusing one vehicle in one fashion, but we we do circulate that up to the pit to be as efficient.

So we are extending some of these out.

We do try to keep the idea that uh there is some salvage value in some of it.

Uh some of this somebody could use as a yard plow truck or uh if it's a larger uh vehicle chassis or or a loader of a special piece of equipment, there may be interest by a private uh contractor or somebody that's got it off-road use.

Um, but at the same time, uh once the either an engine or transmission failure goes, at this point it's going to be kind of scrap metal.

So we try to keep that balance of cost of repair to keep it operational and then trade in value, but we try to uh to Counselor Chittam, I think he had said, you know, run it till it's the end of life.

So we we do try to get as much life out of it as we can.

So, you know, I I think uh having the new vehicles uh that are requested, holding those off a year would would totally be appropriate.

I think it's uh the CIP.

So we are looking at at bonding this is the request, and uh my understanding it's not fund balance as proposed.

We are looking at doing uh a bond.

Uh uh Counselor Nagine, yes.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Uh just to clarify, Director, you were saying pulling these off of the CIP is is completely acceptable.

You know, I mean we're we're in a tight year and asking for for new pieces of equipment that we don't currently don't have in the fleet.

I think that's something that is totally reasonable to say, you know, let's not ask this year for those items.

So that item would be um the trailer dump with the log brush loader uh and the spill response trailer.

That's 27,000 for the trailer and 87,500 for the the trailer dump.

So you're just talking about the new vehicles.

You're not talking about the replacement there.

The new the new fillet request.

Not the loader with the plow gear that costs uh half a million dollars.

Uh unfortunately, no, the lead time on the lower is 14 to 16 uh months, and some of it is specialty equipment uh with plow gear.

So uh we can get a loader, but you can't necessarily get the front plow gear as well as the side wing and get that fitted up.

Uh that's takes some of the time.

No, that makes sense.

The the one thing I would just point out is any of the monies that we borrow on the LCIP then become debt service that we have to pay off in the following years, which reduces our available revenues.

So it it does hit the budget and it hits it with interest.

Um but yeah.

Thank you.

Further comments for uh Dr.

Gagner about vehicles.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Administrator Keenrath, what's the last?

Right.

We could uh continue on to vehicles if we would like to hear from the police department about extending the life of police vehicles, either Chief or uh rep from PD.

Um Chief.

Chief Conley or your designee.

Hello again.

Um so in reference to um the vehicles for us, obviously I I know you've heard it at nauseum, the take-home program.

Um but I do have an update in reference to that.

Um I'm sure most of you are aware that we had turned the mic just up a little bit.

Can you hear me now?

Thank you.

Yes, thank you.

I'm sure a lot of you are aware that we had um Senator Collins' office had supported us in some appropriations funds, some congressionally directed funding um after the mass shooting.

And what had happened is the um initial year that we applied for it, they didn't um they didn't move forward with with any congressionally directed funding.

Um but she supported us and advocated our department uh for the next year.

And uh about a month or so ago we found out that we did receive that those funds.

Um the issue with that um for us was that we were told we received it, it was put into law, but it's kind of in this window right now where it then gets submitted to a grant manager.

Um so part of the funding that um we had requested or part of the items that we had requested in that, obviously this is prior to us looking into the take-home program.

Um we had we had requested uh ten vehicles for uh the amount of nine hundred and eighty thousand dollars.

Um so we were on, like I said, we were unsure, we're unsure where where we're at with that.

Um but I was able to reach out to them this week and learn that um one we will be receiving those funds for sure, or we're confident that we'll be receiving those funds uh before the end of the fiscal year, which would be um in the fall of this year.

And two, um that we would be authorized to use those um and then remove uh close to it would be 980,000, close to a million dollars off of the L CIP, because obviously um we wouldn't need as many vehicles um in the L CIP.

So just wanted to share that with you all.

Um I I would imagine I know that doesn't directly affect technically the budget, but I would imagine with the debt service and maybe Director Roy could expand on how that could potentially affect the tax rate.

Any thoughts, Director Roy?

So if you remember last time, um we had talked about the interest being over the three years two hundred and seventy-five thousand two ninety-eight.

Bring in the total bond over three years, five million five twenty-one, five sixty-four.

With this reduction, um, with the principal being four million two sixty-six two twenty-six, um, the interest would be two hundred and twenty-three thousand, six six six six six six sixty-nine eighty, which is a reduction of fifty-one thousand six twenty-nine in interest.

So the total of the bond would be four million four eighty-nine eight ninety-five.

Thank you.

Uh anything further, Chief?

No.

More questions for the Chief about uh take home vehicles.

I guess we're good.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay, moving on.

Uh the next question uh was regarding uh wage reductions or cola uh reductions, voluntary wage reductions with all of our collected bargaining uh agreements.

Uh Deputy Administrator Malley, do you want to comment on the results of um that inquiry?

Yeah, I did email all of the uh unions, and while some of them were sympathetic to the budget woes that we are experiencing, um no one was in favor of reducing um their colas.

Uh that's that.

Uh yeah, anything further or is that all the updates, uh, administrator Kane?

Uh those were the main updates uh from the last meeting.

Uh if there's anything we haven't covered, um we're obviously interested in taking more questions.

Um otherwise I think uh we move on to further deliberations.

Uh just for a scheduling update, we do have this meeting this evening.

Um we can have another meeting on Thursday evening.

A week from tonight, though, is our at least on the calendar, our budget passage uh evening, which requires the clerk's office to get out uh the agenda on Thursday for that.

So I think we do need to get a good idea of if we're in a position uh to pass a budget on uh Tuesday, a week from tonight.

Uh Madam Clerk, I don't know if you want to comment at all on schedule and timeline and just some of the logistics we're working through with this process.

Sure, thank you.

Um so just for logistics, as you know, the deadline to have agenda material to us is tomorrow at noon, and that would be that we would then release the agenda on Thursday like usual for a Tuesday night meeting.

So that would mean either finalizing the budget this evening so those numbers can be prepared for the budget um resolve in the budget orders so that can go out on Thursday.

Another potential option, and we've never done this, but it doesn't say that we couldn't, is that if you meet again on Thursday evening and finalize everything, then the agenda packet could go out Monday offer a Tuesday night meeting.

Uh you would need to debate you know the pros and cons of releasing that to the public on Monday as opposed to Thursday, which they're normally used to getting.

But if you need additional time to do the um final deliberations, we just wanted to review with you the logistics of releasing and preparing the agenda material.

Thank you.

Um Madam Clerk.

And also of note, we do have scheduled our city attorney to join us on Thursday this week uh to talk and answer questions about the uh powers and duties of the council regarding the budget process.

So that is also on the calendar for Thursday evening.

Um and I think he'll also talk about I know I I've mentioned a few times uh the ability of counselors by charter to offer amendments um to the budget.

So I think he can speak further on that if there are questions.

I know that's not our normal process, but that is a uh charter uh permitted uh power of individual counselors.

Um and so if we are going to talk about uh amendments being offered, I think there also needs to be some process put in place around that for when amendments would be due uh because they should be published on the agenda, not just offered up um in sort of a free-for-all on the last night of the budget.

Um that is also scheduled for Thursday um with the city attorney.

Uh the timing of that might be tough based on if we have yeah, our our conversation with the attorney, and then that will be uh a day after uh you know amendments would do be due if we put them in our budget.

Um administrator Kane Rathan perhaps also with Madam Clerk.

Could you also explain?

Uh I believe we need uh a supermajority to pass this budget, and then what would happen if we do not have a supermajority to pass this budget?

So we have until the end of May uh to pass a budget.

Uh in the event of budget is not approved.

My understanding is that it does revert back to the city administrator for a budget, but I would then also have to comply with the 3.3 CPI.

Um, yeah, I believe so that's correct.

And the charter also says that the city administrator has 72 hours to do that.

Okay.

Uh our memory is not happened before in any any recent times.

Is that correct?

Correct.

Uh uh understood.

Just uh for the public's benefit to uh and for all of us here to understand where we're at.

Uh so counselors, yes.

Uh let's uh I guess discuss about where we're where we're all feeling.

We'll just go on.

We'll start with counselor forward one and just work on down the line.

Counselor Nathy.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Um two things.

Um, I'd be more comfortable with planning to close out the budget on the 19th as opposed to the fifth, if we can get there by the 19th.

The second thing is there's been some uh commentary about the public comment process and a usually our uh our public hearings are at the beginning of the budget and the night we were approved the budget.

And so um I I believe there was some support for having uh public comment and feedback uh during the uh the meeting on the fifth, um, which would give us a couple of weeks to respond back to citizen and constituent feedback and concern.

Um that's kind of where I'm at at this moment.

I I'm not quite sure if I can get all of the amendments in uh for uh next Tuesday's uh uh or excuse me, next Tuesday's meeting, but I'm gonna I'll do my best.

And I'm I assume if they're bullet points, that will be fine as well.

Like I I mean it would be up to you, it would be in a format that the council would review, discuss, and then vote on ultimately.

Okay.

Yeah.

So that's that's where I'm at.

So basically basically push two weeks.

Yeah, and hopefully we can close by the 19th.

Um, but yeah.

Uh thank you, uh Counselor Nagyen.

Counselor Long Champs.

Thank you, Mayor.

Is that all of our that's the discussion right now?

Is just this?

The budget, yes.

Well, I know the budget, but is it just pushing it or keeping it on our regular scheduled date or uh well, also I guess your thoughts on the budget in terms of where we want it to end up, etc.

But yeah, general budget discussion.

Thank you.

And your your general thoughts.

Um I'm sure I'll have more thoughts and comments as we uh move along.

But if you could just move the money, one thing I would be neglecting um if I didn't mention, which is not a part of our budget, but the Ravels.

Uh people are now receiving them.

Um, and we have a lot of panicked families, uh a lot of elderly people.

Um I understand that this is something that had to be done.

We neglected to do it for 38 years.

Um, but that can't fall back solely on the citizens of Lewiston so quickly.

We decided in 23 that we were going to implement this.

Um people just started receiving their assessments over the last few days.

And you know, some may say we should implement this right away.

I think that's so unfair to do.

I would really like to ask our city administrator, um, if you could kindly or beg Mr.

Haley, whichever one you'd prefer to do, uh, if we could wait two years.

We have a very large elderly population here in Lewiston.

And I just think it's unfair um to do this so fast.

I mean some numbers are doubling, some numbers are tripling.

So I know Mr.

Healy did say one year he was comfortable with, but I think if we could get the majority of counsel to uh if they should agree with what I'm asking to push it two years, he may reconsider, I would hope.

Um so I'll be back with budget stuff, but I just wanted to say that.

Thank you uh yeah, sorry, one one second, administrator.

I'm sorry, yeah, counselor uh long champs.

If we can have it uh quiet in the council chambers, that'd be great.

Uh Counselor Long Chance, did you have any uh thoughts about the budget right now?

Um no, not right this moment.

Okay.

Uh Counselor Roy.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Um so I'm in favor of pushing two weeks in um with uh as far as the budget.

But um like Council Longchamps, I would definitely um encourage um everybody to think about uh pushing uh the reevaluation out two years easy because I mean all the emails, all the phone calls.

We can't absorb this in such a short time.

Yes, we've had some time to think about it, but there was no ideas of how to uh cope with such a big burden that we're putting on the taxpayers and I this this can't happen.

We we can't absorb this.

A lot of people can't.

Um so I'm in favor of like Council Lawn Champs.

I would I would push it out two years and then um phase it in.

I would not just do 100% push in because I don't think we can do that, and then give alternatives to uh processes to lower the burden on on our um seniors and the people that that um qualify for some programs out there and make those known on the website, really send out letters.

We have to get the word out there to to have people remain in their homes.

And I know we're not knocking on their doors to kick them out, but uh potentially they're gonna have to sell.

Um and we don't want that.

We want everybody who's lived here for years and years and years to stay here, and and that's where I I fall on that.

As far as the budget and stuff like that, I do have some other questions that I want to ask.

I don't know if that's something I can do right now or if I have to wait till Thursday.

I think questions are fine at this time.

So do we have any create uh any jobs that were created through the pandemic or with pandemic funding that are now here and the grants have dried up and the city is absorbing those positions.

Do we have any positions like that?

You don't have to answer right now if you need to look into that, that would be great.

Because again, if we don't, if we can't find grants to continue paying them, then those are some positions we may have to look at.

Um question to help with the school budget.

I don't know if there's any positions with the school and the city that overlap where the city could take on some of those positions instead of only having the school.

Okay, so you you kind of you shook your head, you know what I'm talking about.

If we can check into that, because I think you know, the school every year has you know, a lot of unfunded mandates and a lot of uh you know, budgetary restrictions, and they have a hard time.

And along those same lines, I know this is gonna be a question for our um for our council.

I personally as a counselor would feel okay with having our city budget out to vote, and also having the citizens say, hey, these portion of the budget, we can we can do without those services.

Let's cut that.

So again, giving us clear guidelines.

I feel that they should be more uh welcome to speak on this budget.

I don't know if that's something we can do, but I feel like they need to be their voices need to be heard because every year when the taxes go up, we're the ones up here that you know we have to make these decisions.

But if it's a collective agreement with the citizens out there to make those decisions too, and tell the council where they feel should be cut, I think that's great.

So I'd be in favor of that.

Um, as far as something that council Nijin said last time, when people retire, when people, you know, lose their jobs or whatever, I think um, you know, instead of bringing it back to the council to fill those positions, I mean a city administrator could say, you know, this position, well, we can hold off a bit.

You know, budgetary reasons we could hold off.

I don't think it needs to come back to the the council, but I think as a city administrator, you could say that so that way there it kind of takes out the middle man in a sense for us.

So that's one of the other things that I had.

Um also cross-training staff um, you know, into other positions so that you know, when people do lose their jobs, we get cross-trained staff so that they can pick up and we don't have to go into overtime.

Um a lot of things like you know, um, we do have a lot of nonprofits.

I saw this in another town where they they have 51% of their land is nonprofits.

What are the nonprofits giving back to the city?

Uh are they giving um I mean they're getting the tax breaks and all that stuff, but what services are they giving to the city?

What are they providing for the city?

So those are the things that I want to see too.

You know what we do.

Uh and I love, don't get me wrong, I love all the nonprofits and stuff like that, but we need to see some stuff.

If we're not gonna be taxing people, we need to see those services, okay.

Um as far as like oh, and with overtime and stuff like this, and I and I know I'm just going on and I apologize for this, but these are thoughts when I've getting when I've gotten all these phone calls.

You know, for a long time, a lot of a lot of people had the use it or lose it mentality.

We have all this overtime funding.

If we have all this funding this year and we don't use it all next year, we're not gonna have that same funding.

So we gotta use it.

We gotta find a way to use it.

I think we need to tighten our budgets now.

And I don't, you know, just like everybody else, when your bills come in higher than what you expected, you have to make cuts in your household.

We have to make cuts here.

We have to look at our budgets, and I said it last time.

If we could look at our departments and maybe make a 20% cut, I don't know what that looks like.

But every department, if you make a 20% cut, that helps taxes on the other side.

Okay, because that's what we would do in a household.

Um, we'd make those cuts.

Um also uh let's see the CMP corridor.

What are we seeing for savings from that?

You know, our our taxes, where you know, with the way it was sold is that the CMP corridor, when we when it comes in, there's gonna be a great big tax relief on our on our citizens.

What are we seeing?

You know, I haven't seen anything.

Okay, I thought about that too.

Uh I had a little bit of help with that one.

Um I don't feel like right now we can absorb a triple like my taxes went up a hundred and well, I wouldn't say I might my value, my house value went up 178,000.

I'm a single parent, single income.

Can't absorb that.

So I feel with every one of you when you're tack when you got your tax bill.

So I had a lot of thoughts about that.

And um let's see.

What will it take for us up here?

What cuts does it need do we need to make in this budget?

Because I hear a lot of people saying there's a lot of waste out there, there's a lot of waste out there.

You know, um, what would it take for us up here to come in at either where we need to be at the budget a 3.1 percent?

3.3.3 is the same.

3.3.

What would it take from where we are now to go down to a 3.3?

And then what would it take to go down to a zero increase?

I mean, as far as services that we're gonna reduce, staff that we're gonna reduce.

Think about that.

And I mean, I'm just putting this out there for everybody to get a big picture on this.

Because again, we're hearing a lot of emails, we're hearing a lot of phone calls, and there they say there's a lot of fat.

You gotta trim the fat, you gotta trim the fat.

Well, I want to see it where we are right now with the budget to come down to a 3.3 percent.

What is that gonna take?

Does that mean jobs?

Does that mean we have to close city hall for four out of the five days a week?

What services do we lose?

These are the things that I want people to know.

Because I think in this whole process, I wanted to be very transparent.

I'm sure everybody else did.

Let's be transparent about this and where it's gonna go, what we need to do to make that happen.

So that's what I got for right now.

Counselor Noble.

I second what Mike said.

Counselor Roy said.

Um, people are asking, we got a lot of emails.

People are asking for us to cut jobs.

Um I would also like for people to know what that would look like as far as what their services from the city would look like, because we also get a lot of complaints about that already.

So um basically everything Mike said, and um just wondering about that part.

Yeah, I'll just respond quickly since two of you have brought it up to get to the three point three, that is well beyond the tier three cuts that we talked about with jobs.

Um it's it's significant personnel cuts.

Um in a nutshell.

I mean, obviously we can go into more detail later, but just so everyone knows to get to that number, uh, that is well beyond what we were talking about with tier three cuts.

Uh Director Roy, um, while we're uh chatting up here, can you uh figure out what that dollar amount would be for 3.3 and uh zero percent?

Just so you know, just for a frame of reference here.

Uh counselor Noble, did you have anything else?

Okay.

Uh Counselor Chitham, it's you.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Uh the 3.3 is the overall tax levy, including the county, the school, and the city, is that correct?

Yes, if that's what you're referencing, the the over the municipal tax levy.

We're not talking about just the city operating budget, right?

The charter requires a uh supermajority to exceed 3.3 the CPI, and that's the total tax levy, including the school.

No.

That's only the municipal side.

Only the municipal tax levy.

Thank you for clarifying that.

And if I could answer what would need to um be removed additionally after the tier three with the take-home vehicles was another two million nine hundred and ninety-two thousand one hundred and eighty-six.

So to get before what?

Excuse me.

To get to what?

To get to the three point three.

Okay.

I'm sorry, would you repeat that number?

2,992,186.

Thank you.

And of just the city budget.

That's the city budget.

I I'm looking at 1.8, but I've already it's already been pointed out to me that my spreadsheet is in error.

Um, so but it's a significant amount of money.

I agree that we ought to postpone the decision until um May 19th, if we have until the end of May.

Uh for us to have cogent amendments to the budget submitted by noon tomorrow is unreasonable.

Um, particularly since we haven't heard from City Council, our corporate council about uh what our rights and responsibilities are.

So I would target that rather than May 5th as the drop-dead date for establishing a budget.

I believe the sense of the council up here is that we do not want to cut job position uh positions uh from the city payroll.

Um that's unfortunate because as several counselors have said, this is when we have to make serious cuts.

And the only cuts that we have left are personnel.

Uh I don't believe there's any fat in the budget.

We could say we could go back and say every department take 10 percent off its supply line.

Um that would mean less copier paper.

It would mean less sand and and brine for the roads in the in the uh winter time.

Uh supplies is a is a big item.

Um that's one area we have control over that would not cost jobs.

It would reduce services, and I've said many times that this is the balancing act between reducing services and keeping the costs down, uh keeping the taxes down.

So I I would urge counselors, uh particularly given that Deputy Administrator O'Malley has spoken with the unions uh who have no desire to take any reductions in their their hard one uh uh colas and steps.

Um frankly, their feet aren't in the fire because the council up here is saying no, we don't want to cut positions.

The last time any kind of traction was made with getting concessions from the unions, feet were in the fire and there were personnel cuts that were uh accepted and espoused by the council.

That's not the situation here.

So if I were a union representative and someone came to me and said, gee, the council is sort of waffling on whether we're going to lose jobs or not.

Um do you want to give up any of your salary?

My answer would be obviously no, I don't.

If I knew for a fact that my coworkers might lose their jobs, my answer might be a little different.

So I think the response from the unions is entirely understandable.

Uh as long as the council is up here saying we are not going to cut positions, then we really have no tools left in which to reduce the budget.

Um I also want to know about the school budget.

Um the school budget is looking at a 12 percent increase, I believe, uh, over last year.

Uh we have the only control we have over that is you need to reduce your bottom line by a percentage, and I think we all need to be thinking about that.

Nobody wants to reduce the cost and the and the nobody wants to reduce the funds that we provide to education.

Education is the future of our city.

Um but we're also talking about the immediate future of our city with many counselors saying that folks are going to be driven from their homes.

I have had communications from my constituents saying if this budget goes through and this reval goes through, I am selling.

I am leaving Lewiston.

I have had generations, but I can no longer afford this.

Um that's the position we're in.

These are hard decisions, and I I argue firmly that the only way that we can reduce the burden on the taxpayer at this point, after we take the the one and two cent pieces that we can scavenge from let's not put Christmas tree lights up, the only way we can have significant impact on the budget is to regrettably tell our loyal employees, some of you no longer have jobs.

That's the hard reality.

Um as far as vacancies in positions, if a position becomes vacant over the course of the year, that doesn't do us any good when we're putting the budget together.

We need to know that now because we have to budget for that position all year long.

We can't say, well, I think that uh Malcolm Smith is going to retire in January, so we're only going to fund half of that year.

That takes the decision away from the employee.

We're required to fund these positions.

If the positions become vacant, they've already been funded.

The budget has been set.

We can't go back and retract that money.

So to ask the administrator to say, well, let's hold off on filling that position, that's a reasonable request, but to have it to come back to council to authorize the release of money that we have already approved in the budget doesn't make any sense to me.

Bottom line, this is a very painful situation.

We are going to have to cut positions, period.

Counselor Martell.

Uh thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Um, I definitely think we need to push this off till at least the 19th.

I don't see any point in trying to do a budget on the fifth.

I don't think we're anywhere near close enough.

Um I'm having a real hard time.

I know we talked about uh overtime tonight, but it just we've got a couple fully staffed or nearly staffed departments, and to have that kind of overtime draw feels like there's gotta be able to find some efficiencies there, especially if there aren't a bunch of missing positions.

Um and it just sounds like we can't.

We have contractual obligations.

Um it just it seems like no one can do it.

So if we're making all of these bad deals that put us in bad situations that allow us no way out or any flexibility when I myself has probably gotten closer to two dozen emails that I've responded to in the last 24 hours than a dozen.

Uh people are feeling the pain, people are getting upset.

I had a feeling this would happen when these when these evaluations went out, it's getting real.

People are seeing it.

And um, I'm looking on the side of the people that are uh at least seven or eight people told me that they no questions, they'll be packing up and leaving.

They'll be selling their house, they're headed out of town.

One individual said uh he's looking to buy property out of town so he can take his his brother uh in-laws and someone else out of town because they it's not worth it.

We're charging people more and more every year and giving everyone less and less and less.

And it's obscene to keep going this way.

And I I don't even want to get going on the reevaluation tonight.

Um I'm gonna try to keep my comments to the budget because again, I'm I'm reading here about messages in the Sun Journal or or WMTW or whatever else about from 2003, 2004, 2005 about um rollouts and making the public aware of these reevaluations and everything else.

And and we're gonna sit up here now after the vast majority of this council will be working on their third budget knowing that this reevaluation was coming.

This was not dropped on anyone.

This was not surprised to anybody.

And to sit here and and to try and behave under that excuse is disingenuous in my opinion.

I would like to see the city sell any of the vacant properties that we're not currently using or developing and limit sell them or find a way.

I don't know if this is possible, I'm not a real estate professional, but uh put restrictions on those sales that they have to be they have to stay on the tax rolls.

No more nonprofits, no more um skating and driving, because the more and more of these nonprofits that come in and buy buildings with government money or however they do it and they're not paying taxes, they use services and all of that burden gets shifted to homeowners and landlords and taxpayers in another way.

Um so if we have all these contractual obligations that we can't cut overtime, we can't anything else, then we just need to take a real look at what we can cut.

Every single thing that isn't uh bolted down to a union uh is fair game for me.

So uh I plan on having uh a solid amount of amendments.

I'm just gonna instead of trying to wrap all of them off here.

I'm going to uh just present those to the city administrator.

Um I apologize, I'm frustrated because I've had a lot of people reach out to me in the last 24 hours and they are feeling this and they are scared.

I think panic was the correct word.

And we are so far beyond creative solutions for 50 cent issues.

Uh we're not trimming fat, we're lopping off limbs.

It's what needs to happen.

And the quicker we can come to the realization that that's the case, uh, the better.

And um I just would like to remind uh everyone that the the reevaluation is very difficult and it feels drastic, but it's a cost neutral action.

It doesn't actually increase the budget one penny.

So the only money that we're taking from any of you is money that we're spending on something else.

We don't need to collect a single dollar that we aren't gonna give to someone else or spend in some other way.

So the reevaluation is difficult.

It should have been handled differently by multiple administrations from both sides of the aisle over decades.

Um like I said, six out of the eight people sitting up here have worked on three uh sorry, uh counselor Harman's not here, have worked on three budgets knowing this was coming, knowing that this was the date and this was going to be implemented.

There was time to prepare, there was time to make people aware, and it didn't happen.

So this uh sense of urgency to send out notices now or whatever, we are so far late to the game, and the fault for that lies up here, not in the public.

Um but it's it's just the reality of the situation that we're dealing with.

Uh, you know, I would have liked to see some fun balance last year preserved, so we could have offset the blow of this reevaluation.

Uh, but no one wanted to make any difficult decisions last year either.

So um yeah, it's not fat, it's limbs, and that's what it's gonna take.

Uh a couple of things here.

So uh one counselor mentioned CMP, CMP is currently uh paying taxes.

We also sheltered some of that in a TIFF, correct, Administrator Kenrath?

For reference to the NECUCO, those and so yes, taxes would be even higher if we didn't have CMP.

Uh and um Madam Clerk, so uh are there any uh anything else that we should be thinking about or any considerations if we move the budget vote to the 19th?

So um two things.

One is the ad is going in tomorrow's paper regarding the public hearing, but that's fine.

We can still hold the public hearing on May 5th because that actually ties in with what Councillor Nagine was recommending.

So the legal ad is in the paper that the public hearing will be on May 5th, and then related to the school budget.

The charter says that the school budget um adoption by the council can be done at a separate time from the city budget.

So the referendum for the school budget is May 12th, and so we would be planning to put on the May 5th agenda the adoption of the school budget um for the city council to vote yes if you are interested or vote no, depending upon what direction you want to take.

Absented ballots have been issued because you called for that election on April 7th.

So that authorized us to issue absentee ballots by state law absentee ballots cannot be returned until after the city council adopts the school budget because it's a validation election.

You're confirming the vote of the council.

Um so I don't know what the thoughts are of the council regarding the school budget, but we will be putting that on the May 5th agenda because of the May 12th election.

So uh yes, I mean I would recommend to the council that we keep the the school budget on uh next Tuesday's meeting, and then uh there are no other considerations for moving the city budget vote to the 19th.

No, it's just it's traditionally been on the first Tuesday of May, probably to allow for enough wiggle room because the budget has to be adopted by May 31st, the 11th month of the um fiscal year per the charter.

Okay.

Thank you.

Um yeah, and I think given the fact that uh we're going to have the attorney here on Thursday uh providing guidance about um you know amendments and the best way to submit them.

I think it makes a lot of sense just to uh to do the city budget vote on the on the 19th to allow us time to uh to work through that process uh pending his guidance.

Uh we'll wrap back around here.

Counselor Nijene.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Um one thing I would like to have uh as soon as it can be provided is all of the new positions and programs uh initiated by the city from fiscal year 2020 onward.

So just a listing of all the new programs that we started and all of the new positions from 2020 onward.

Um we're talking about new new positions that were new for FY20 and to now onwards.

Right.

And same thing for any program that we started 2020 onward.

Um thing that's abundantly clear is we have to come up with a cohesive pilot program uh that we're bringing forward uh to the public.

I know we have something that we you know had have kind of like looked at dusting off a little bit, um, but we need to bring that forward.

Um and you know, I don't know.

It needs to be like I would love to say, hey, let's set up a committee, but it needs to be activated.

Like we need to get it done.

Um so um perhaps a committee is not the best format that is done in, but we absolutely need to be reaching out to the nonprofits and our community in order to ask, especially the ones that you know I'm just gonna frame this.

I know there's a lot of arguments against nonprofits.

Um looking ahead, Clubhouse, which is in my ward, and it it serves uh uh a bunch of people both in our community and and in the region is a community organization.

You can call it an NGO, you can call it a nonprofit, it's a community organization.

Um and so when we talk about nonprofits, that there are community organizations and there are folks that are either statewide or national organizations or organizations who don't serve and live in our community that I think are some of the challenges.

So just to name that.

The garbage contract that we're looking at.

We took on uh more than a doubling of our of our garbage contract.

And I know that we're supposedly stuck in it for five years, but we're paying 250,000 in excess to MWAC to burn uh waste.

I would love to find out if there's a possibility of having finding out how we can cut that $250,000 out of the budget.

And then also if you look at the program that Bath adopted, uh, instead of going with just Casella, they had several different programs.

Um again, city property sales, super important.

Um I would like to also advocate that we look at all of our revenue streams and consider uh uh increasing them.

Uh one of the things that comes to mind is the parking garage fees.

Like could we could we raise a monthly parking garage fee to $65 or $70?

Why would we not if it's not in uh if it's lower than what we're seeing in other communities?

And so anywhere where we can uh turn some revenue without putting it completely on the backs of uh of the taxpayer.

So I'll have again uh some amendments that I'm putting forward.

Um, one of the things I know is CMMC, uh again, I brought it up before, high street is on the paving schedule for this year.

Um I know that Prime just took over CMMC and I know the regional hospital is very important, but that entire project sits on a nonprofits footprint that is only for the hospital.

And so like the question is can there be a conversation where we say, hey, can you pick up 100,000 of this because it's super expensive to rebuild their entire campus infrastructure?

Um that that's all I have to say at this moment.

But yeah, the the new positions and programs to 2020 onward are super important for me.

Uh yes, Counselor Long Champs.

Um I'm just wondering, um, Administrator, if you could answer the question, if you wouldn't mind that Councillor Roy asked uh regarding do we have any current uh employees currently that were hired during COVID.

Yeah, we would have to double check on on COVID because we're talking about five plus years ago potentially.

There is one um position that was uh grant funded.

We did lose the grant funding for that position in HR.

And so then now that position is effectively on you know on the rules.

Um but we would have to let us go back and double check on all of the I don't know if we want to speak right now on all the positions or potential positions.

I don't think there are any maybe.

But do we have uh Director Terrier here?

Uh Mr.

Mayor?

Uh I I guess we have a Deputy Administrator Mally.

Uh we have created no positions from COVID.

The position that the uh city administrator was referring to was a grant, but it was not from COVID funds.

And Council Najine, if you look on page 16 of your budget book, it goes back to 2017 and it has the listing of all the positions, you know, the number for each department.

Right.

It has the number for each department, but individual positions.

Like I know that we took on uh a um assistant or deputy uh fire chief two years ago, I believe.

Yes.

So if you look at right.

So if you look at um fire, it'll show it'll show where the increase in 2024, it goes to from 78 to 79 and then to 80 in 2025.

So I'm looking for the specifics.

I think we're just looking for some process, right?

I provided that list um to counselor Martell for three years back that I can send to you.

So everyone he had asked for that previously.

Okay.

I I still want to have it from 2020 onward.

Okay.

Um thank you.

Um since we were on the topic of nonprofits, um, as much as I appreciate Bates College and uh all the students.

Um, every time they purchase a home or homes or buildings, it's it's coming off from it's taking away from our tax base.

Um I would like our city administrator to have a conversation with Bates regarding I I'd like to see them donate money towards our budget every year.

I mean, you're talking there's over 2,000 students at like $90,000 a year.

Uh that that's a lot of money.

Um and they're purchasing more and more um houses and buildings, uh multi-units for their students that they are uh these students aren't staying there for free.

Uh they're renting these units out to them.

So some way, somehow I feel as though they need to contribute more uh to our city financially.

I would like to say that.

Um I think it's going to be impossible for us to get to the 3.3.

I just think it's um if we were to deduct $2 million, if I remember that number correctly.

2.5.

About how many positions would that be?

Because there's there's no other way.

I know, but you can use there were 100,000 all in each position, and that's 25 positions.

So another 25.

Um we have how many employees currently within the city?

360 full-time approximately.

360.

How many does the school department have?

Do we know?

Uh a little over 1,200, I think.

12 or 1300.

A little over 1200 or 1,300.

Um if we were to take the 1.9 from our fund balance to add to this, I know we had that discussion.

Bring us not down to 9%, you mean?

It would take us down to 9%.

Um I know we've talked about the different tiers, one, two, and three.

Um it looks like tier two is three positions, is that right?

Uh approximately three or four.

And what would that put us at?

So that was on uh one of the sheets that came out.

Director Roy, can you remind us of where we were at tier two versus tier three as far as savings?

So if you were to take um the tier, the tier two was two ninety-five, five thirty for three positions.

Tier three was um four hundred and fifty-four, four eighty-two.

That would be seven hundred and fifty thousand twelve with using the fund balance.

Yes.

We would need to cut another million forty-two.

So that those positions wouldn't even get us to the three point three.

We'd be shy about three hundred thousand.

That's if you're trying to get down to the three point three.

I don't think we can.

I mean, not be the scenario.

Right.

Basically.

Right.

Um this is kind of a ridiculous question, but I'm going to ask it anyway.

Supplies.

Where are we at?

Do we have a number for supplies throughout the city for the different departments?

Uh a total.

Of all the departments combined?

Right.

I suppose we could we could calculate that.

Thank you.

It is on one of your pages, but hold on.

Well, she's calculating that.

Do you have anything else?

Uh, Counselor Longchamps.

After I hear that number, if that's okay.

Uh yes.

There under all of the departments is 3 million one for supplies.

But you have to remember that includes um items, so services you can't remove.

So we'd have to take a look at each department and go through and see.

But for most of the smaller departments, office supplies aren't very much of a budget.

Um the other supplies are probably the larger ones are police and fire, which are supplies that they need to um be able to do their jobs.

What is the amount for the police and the fire?

Um please.

It's gonna take a little bit because we just have them all all the supplies, so I would have to sort by, because it's all by the departments going down by the actual object.

So in order to do that, I'll I'll pull it up and I'll let you know in a minute.

Thank you.

Um I think if we could cut there, uh I'd like to have that discussion.

Um depending on what those supplies are exactly.

We have to make cuts.

Um I've said that already.

Um I just don't know that we're gonna get down to 3.3.

But I will definitely um email some suggestions uh over to you.

And thank you.

Uh if we could have been some mayor, just a no ones.

The properties.

Um the city actually did just place.

Are you talking about vacant properties?

Correct, city-owned properties that are on the books.

We did just place, I believe it's 28 uh properties on the market.

They're currently on the MOS with our uh contracted broker.

Um most of the properties are smaller, non-buildable lots, some are a little bit bigger.

We actually have gotten some offers in that we're gonna be bringing to you at the next council meeting for consideration.

Um, but again, most of these properties in these lots are not you know, are not major cash cows, they're smaller lots, they're on middle unbuildable, really of interest maybe to a neighbor uh or in a butter.

But we will have some offers to bring forward, so just know that we did actually put out an extensive list just uh within the last couple weeks on the market.

I believe the numbers uh 28 properties um and you can see they're currently listed on the MLS.

Um, well, we bring those offers forward.

So that's that's in the works.

Thank you for that.

Um anything further at this time, Counselor Long Champs.

I guess I would ask.

Um, so are we going to take money from the fund balance to help with this budget, or is that I I know I had suggested it, but I don't know if we got it.

Uh if I may, Counselor Long Champs, I'd like to work through everyone, then I was going to bring that up.

Thank you.

Yeah.

We will come back to that here before we close for the evening.

Uh you good?

I'm good.

Uh Counselor Roy, back to you.

Thank you.

Um I have about um we have properties in neighborhoods that are bought by out of state providers that do in-home.

Like group homes.

Are they taxed?

Uh if they're a private entity, I believe they would be taxed if they're nonprofit.

That would be different.

So uh I'm not sure of the status of all of these.

If we do have some that are of a nonprofit status, we have to go back and check that out.

I would like to know that.

Yep.

Because I think you know that's only fair if we've got out-of-state, you know, um agencies that are nonprofits buying these up and taking them off the tax rules.

I would really love to see that.

Um see the numbers on that.

Um also I would be too in favor.

I I have been talking about this for a couple of years now.

You know, I I love Bates College, I love the sporting events, I love all that stuff, but I do feel like they should contribute in some ways to our education budget.

I really feel that they should be, you know, um uh helping us to support education in this city.

You know, um, as a nonprofit, these are potential, these are potential um students that could go to Bates.

So I think you know, investing in Lewiston, investing in our youth, I think that is something that I would really love to see really soon.

So that's one of my last comments right now for tonight.

Uh Councillor Noble.

Okay.

Uh Counselor Chitham, any uh final thoughts from you?

Um Yes, I uh on the on the pilot, the payment in lieu of taxes.

Um Portland, as many people know, uh has an ordinance in the process that would require the city to ask for uh contributions, voluntary contributions from its tax exempt people.

I prefer the term tax exempt to nonprofit because it's it's a broader definition.

Um so anyone who is tax exempt is generally designated so under state law.

It's not something that we say, well, you don't have to pay taxes.

This is a state designation.

Uh Portland has proposed an ordinance that would ask for tax-exempt organizations to contribute over an escalating three-year period ending at 40 percent of the taxes that they would otherwise be responsible for.

That's a great idea and concept, but my understanding is that this has now been halted because there have been lawsuits preferred against the city uh for even asking for contributions.

The city has no legal authority to require uh contributions from uh tax exempt properties.

One of my telephone calls this afternoon uh was somebody who has changed his way of thinking about the stormwater fee.

Remember when that was imposed, this was a horrible thing.

You're just soaking more money from the city of the taxpayers.

You're you're you're figured out another way to get money from us.

Well, in reality, I think more and more people are realizing that this was actually a savings to the taxpayers because it spread the burden of maintaining a specific segment of city infrastructure or the entire city instead of just the non-tax exempt people.

The question he asked me was can't we do that some more?

Can't we increase the stormwater fee?

Well, not really, because it's an enterprise fund and the money that's generated by that fund goes to maintaining the stormwater structure.

It doesn't go to paying teacher salaries or police overtime or uh the clerk's assistance.

Uh it's dedicated to that.

So we can't really inflate that just because we need more money in the general fund.

I haven't given enough thought to think to to consider are there other enterprise funds that we could create that would spread the cost burden of operating this city more evenly across all of its constituents instead of just its taxpayers.

Uh that I think is worthy of consideration.

I do think that a pilot program, in as much as we have the authority to do that, you have heard me before.

You're never going to get an answer to the question unless you ask it.

So we need to be asking every tax exempt organization in the city, every single one of them without fail.

Are you willing to contribute to the welfare of this community?

That brings me to another point that another constituent was had raised.

As you know, Ward 6 is a different entity than the majority of the city.

We're we're we're a breed apart in Ward 6.

Uh one of the telephone calls said this is gonna hurt, but I'm fortunate I feel that I can afford this.

Many people can't.

Would it be possible to include on the tax bills to everybody?

Are you willing to contribute an extra something to operating the city?

I get these all the time from the tax exempt nonprofit organizations that I belong to.

Your dues are $25 a year or $100 a year.

Would you be willing to throw in an additional $50 or so?

That's worthy of consideration because I bet you dollars to donuts, there are folks out there who love this city enough and who can afford to that would be willing to say, yes, I'm going to give you a little bit more than you are demanding from me for your taxes.

I'm not going to claim it's going to amount to more than a hill of beans, but it's a start and it's a way to let people who appreciate this city show that appreciation.

Again, if you don't ask the question, you will not get the answer.

So I would encourage a reprinting of the tax bills for the ones that go out in September, uh in August, I'm sorry, uh to put a question on there.

Are you willing to contribute a little more over and above what we've assessed for your taxes?

That's all I have for now.

Councillor Martell, did you have anything?

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Uh the last the one thing I forgot to touch on earlier was uh the school committee needs to sharpen their pencil too.

I was watching, I don't think it was the most recent meeting, but the one before the city council representative to the school committee and then an at least one other member of the school committee in an open meeting, uh we're debating and dialoguing about uh let's hold off on making these cuts because the public's gonna kick back our first budget anyway.

So it's let's save these so that we can um performatively put them in.

Like make some cuts.

You've got three to four times the employees of the city of Lewiston.

That is the uh the majority of the budget.

So um there's some some cutting needs to get done over there as well.

And um just some of the discussions that happen in open meeting, I I think are insulting to taxpayers.

Pretty much says, you know, let's wait for them to kick back the first one, incur the cost of another uh referendum vote.

Uh it.

I don't know.

It's just time for everyone to get serious.

There's a lot of money that needs to be cut from both sides.

Thank you.

Uh counselors, uh, thank you, staff.

Uh if I could just have uh a thumbs up from counselors who uh are uh in support of using fund balance at this time, just so we can get a sense of where we're at.

One, two, three.

And that would be to the to the nine percent threshold.

Uh I I yeah, I assume that's what we're all mostly in agreement towards.

It appears there's the you know, I realize we have a counselor missing right now, but um appears to be uh support for using fund balance.

Uh okay.

Anything further uh counselor Nagine?

Yes.

Just for a point of two points of clarification.

So if we don't have a supermajority to pass the budget, you would have to present us a budget that actually stays within the uh 3.3.

The 3.3.

Okay.

That's one piece.

And then two, um just to clarify, we don't actually need a supermajority in order to approve the tier three cuts that were put forward, correct?

Uh if there's a final budget that incorporates them five of you have to support those because at tier three we're still over the three point three CPU, so it takes five votes.

I'm just weighing those those two things.

And ultimately, I think all of us are gonna come forward with amendments, hopefully.

Um and and so even if we were supporting tier three, maybe there are other cuts.

I don't know.

It depends.

Um but I just wanted to kind of iron that out.

So one no supermajority.

We're going to 3.3 percent anyways.

Anything over 3.3 requires the five vote supermajority.

Counselor Chitum, did I see your hand up?

You did, but again, I have forgotten what I was going to say.

Well, we'll we'll be back here on Thursday.

Okay.

Yes, Dr.

Roy, did you have something?

So this the supply line for PD and fire is 877,942.

And then public works out of that 3 million is 2,081 88, which the large portion of that is gas and oil, and then salt.

So there's only like 227,000 that could be looked at in each of the smaller departments.

Thank you very much.

I say we look at it.

Okay.

Yeah.

And since I'm here, so sorry, but um as far as tax exempt, just really quick, um, instead of using your mic nonprofit.

Um the unfortunate thing is it's sad that we even have to go and ask.

You know, if these people were willing and they're so kind, you think that uh the organizations would have already stepped up to help our city.

Uh okay.

So we uh yes, Counselor Nagyen, did you have something else?

Just one more point on revenues.

Um I'm gonna hold you to that, counselor.

Yep.

So the home health care uh facilities that run in the city are primarily in single family homes.

They do op occupy uh uh apartment units as well, but primarily single family homes, uh thereby doing like a double whammy where uh it's a it's a business that is actually uh generating revenue um but is removing a home from the market uh that uh a family could personally possibly purchase.

And because it is a business, we could address uh some of the impacts uh of uh I'm not against home health care in any way, shape, or form, but if we had a business licensing process that actually charged uh an amount that's appropriate for these services, we could offset uh some of our budget costs and also cause calls for service because some of these places are actually getting calls for service from both our fire department, EMS, and the police.

And so I just want to put that forward.

I know that's not gonna help this budget right this second, but we have to do something in order to start balancing these things.

So understood.

Uh just to recap quickly here, uh it appears that uh there's support to uh move the city budget vote to the 19th.

We will keep the school budget vote for next Tuesday.

And uh appears to be uh support for uh using the or going down to nine percent in uh fund balance.

And we will have the attorney here to kick things off on Thursday.

Yep.

Uh to provide guidance on uh on the amendment process.

And we can provide updated numbers of where we are with the nine percent uh calculator then for fund balance.

Yeah, we can crank those numbers in between.

Uh anything further, Administrator Kenrath?

Uh I'm good for the moment, thank you.

Deputy Administrator O'Malley.

Dr.

Roy.

Uh just because I don't want to uh leave you out.

Madam Clerk didn't.

I'll say thank you.

Okay.

Uh we're calling it a night.

We'll be back here on Thursday.

Thank you so much, Louis Ton.

Thank you, counselors, and thank you, staff.