Okay, we are on the air.

We are on the air with our main work session.

Counselor Steven Summers is with us online.

And I think we're all seeing after an old day budget meeting.

And hopefully there's representatives there from both the companies to answer any questions specifically related to garbage collection.

So every year that this is an annual process that's pretty unique within the state of Oregon, specifically within the Portland Metropolitan area, where the haulers generate a report that presents the financial outcome of operation within the franchise area.

And this report has uh financial results that has customer data and a lot of other information necessary to determine whether the rates are adequate to return uh a rate of return that's within the franchise agreement for the haulers.

And so this year, uh you go to the max page fees, please.

Um report waste management waste connections uh and waste connections, the company that they're operating is KHUT.

Uh and the reason they do this is primarily when they acquire a company, they would like to keep it uh a local company.

In this case, they retain the name.

So it's Kahoot and it's waste management.

And Clackmas Garden does have a small piece of Milwaukee, but it's so small that it doesn't have an impact.

They still report, but we don't include those uh those results on the rate setting.

So just to clarify, that's why they're listed on a sheet.

Uh in 2025, there was some increase in residential service, residential customers as well as commercial container customers compared to the previous year.

Uh and this just right here uh is the layout of how many customers are currently provided being provided service within the city of Milwaukee, uh, both residential, which is primarily a car, container, uh commercial container, which is the front road uh container for the bigger uh volumes of waste, and then drop box and compact holes.

And the interesting thing about Milwaukee is you do have an industrial area that's very robust for the size of the city, and there are a lot of halls out of that specific area.

Uh next slide, please.

Uh and then here's kind of the franchise makeup of the city, and you can see it's broken down in two parts.

Uh, waste management does have the the lower the southern part of the the city, whereas uh Khoop does have the northern part, the brown area shit in.

And Clackmaster just had a small piece down in the southeast portion of town.

So it's labeled Hoodview on your map, but Kahoot and Hoodview are the same thing.

And waste connections, and waste connections.

K who bought hood view, did I get that right?

No, Kayw, K who bought uh shoot.

I forget the name of the two guys a long time ago.

Then they named the Hood View, and then I was hood view, and it was Khoop, and it was Candy Disposal.

Um it was three different companies.

Okay, and then Hoodview brought out this was uh two other this was the Diamonds Brothers Finance or franchise area, so it's it's kind of convoluted, but right now it's waste connections.

So one of the things that we're looking at this year, um, as we're looking at the cost increases for year year, one as one thing that's been going on for the last five or six years.

We've seen uh a significant rate increase in disposal fees, and this this year was no difference.

We have a nine percent increase in disposal fee, which doesn't seem like a lot until you look at the rate that's being charged right now for the disposal, and it's it's significant.

It does have a significant impact on customer service, the customer rates that are being charged.

Uh union driver wages are up a little higher this year, uh, and there's kind of catch-up.

And uh so we've seen three to three and a half percent, in this case 3.86% for for the uh union agreement between waste management and uh the teamsters, and we use that as a means for escalating labor.

Uh KHOOP right now is a non-union company, however, even though they're not union, they still have to pay wages that are commensurate with the union.

Uh they still have that competitive uh labor is still competitive and labor does go to the highest payers.

So in this case, they do have to, even though they're not union, they still have to maintain union weights.

And then the other thing that you're uh that we're seeing an increase is the increase in disposal fee for organic residential organic waste, uh, which is the combination of the arc-green food waste, and again, that's going up by 10% from under to 110.

And both the garbage and uh the recycling organic materials either take it.

The garbage is taken either to Metro South, which is in Oregon City, or uh uh Khoot does take it down to their transfer station down to Canby.

And then uh organic waste is taken to Metro South.

They do take organic uh food waste.

So these are the three primary rate uh increases that we're gonna be pushing through in the rate uh for the current.

Next slide, please.

And so this is the proposed uh residential collection you can see the three costs of those those additional increases would be uh the current rate we have to disposal for the image, it varies from the size of the container, and it's based on the weight, the average weight of that container.

Organics is the same for everybody because they have the same size container, and so we can't differentiate between one side of the town and the other, so it's the same rate for everybody, and labor is the same thing, it's the same cost whether you're picking up a smaller car or a larger car.

Labor is still flat across the board.

So the combination of those three costs uh for the 35-gallon car, which is the most common level of service within C Mowkey, we're gonna see an increase of a dollar sixty-seven, or in this case, four percent increase on the car rates.

So just to be clear, like for the 35 gallon, the the disposal uh fee increase of 88 cents.

That's the increase.

That's not the total of that disposal fee, right?

Correct, correct.

The disposal fee, if you were to take that 177 dollars, there's you know, I can calculate here and tell you what you average what what within that rate that you're paying for disposal, in fact, you can do a breakout it if the city council wants out what the what comprises there that at 4385, I can tell you you know what the costs are that comprise that 4385.

Um, and it's due to the level of information that's being provided by a waste manager in place in Texas with their annual reports.

So can I ask um well, I guess up, I'll hold it until you're done.

I like to go ahead.

Well, I mean, so we had a four percent increase last year as well.

Um, but your report told us we actually saved 170,000 something because of the waste uh whatever it's called, reduction act.

Yeah, the recycling management uh act, or excuse me, right?

Recycling modernization act, yeah.

And that the recycling modernization act is uh the way that it's set up is the the burden of uh paying for the recycling processing and everything else within the state is shifting from uh ratepayers to the generators of the material.

So, for example, uh let's use Pepsi.

Pepsi uh generates uh you know produces a product that's put in plastic bottles, and so Pepsi is paying a dollar amount per unit that's sold within the state of Oregon to the uh to the to the circular axial lines, which is the operator of the PRO.

And I can explain a lot more detail, but in essence, Pepsi uh you know, all the manufacturers of packaging are paying into this this organization.

This organization is now paying for the processing of the recycling in that uh state.

So the shift of that is moving from the ratepayer to the producer uh and consumer.

Yeah, and I thought that was awesome.

I mean, I think you know, the whole producer responsibility mantra, I'm uh I'm on board for that.

Um, so it's great that that comes out of our rates, but it didn't really, it's not enough to make uh uh much difference.

Well, the other thing too that you're it it will make a difference.

What you what you're not seeing here is there were significant increases from 24 to 25 for the cost of the trucks.

Um the cost of garbage truck has gone up significantly.

I think it's increased about seven and a half percent over the last 10 years annually for the cost of the garbage truck.

That was up significantly.

The cost of repair and maintenance is up uh significantly also.

Um the cost of insurance is going up.

Uh and so those are three costs off the top of my head that I can recall that that were significantly higher this year than last year.

So that reduction in expense for processing recycling offset was offset by those increased costs for insurance for truck repair, truck replacement, uh other other costs that that were increasing from 24 to 25.

So it did have an impact because if we didn't have that, there'd be another 100 approximately 150,000 in the rates that we have to account for.

And so the rate increase would be significantly higher than the 4% that we're doing right now.

I just have a quick question.

I just in your in your expertise, um, and maybe it's just me looking at these numbers, but it just seems like the difference in the cost from like a 20-gallon to a 96 gallon, which is almost five times as much.

It's not even double what the fee is.

So and that's a significant difference in trash.

So I'm just curious, like, is it is are the almost like there's a little bit of subsidizing going on from the lower end trash users?

No, or is interestingly enough.

And so every year, the city of Portland goes out and they weigh these containers.

They have a group of kids from Portland State University that run out every day during a period four times a year, they weigh these carts, these roll carts, and they have weights specifically for a 32 or 20, 64, and 96 gallon.

And the weight on those is not the weight is heavier per unit per gallon for 20 gallon than it is for 96.

The reason is because even though most people that have a 96 you know may need it, there's still some volume in there, still some error that that they don't fully utilize that container.

Whereas the 32-gallon, you know, those people are probably using it to the to the 95 bit, but they're not gonna see a lot of volume in there, a lot of error, but the bigger the container, the more air it is at more air it has into it.

Um the average weight that we use for the 32 or something 35-gallon cart is just under 24 pounds per setup.

That means that car weighs about 24 pounds when you roll out the average weight and roll it out the curve.

But when you look at that 60 gallon car, you think okay, it's gonna be almost double.

It's 40 pounds, so it's 15 pounds difference.

So the difference between the 64 and 35 gallon is 15 pounds.

That's the difference in the rate that you're seeing right there at 1.50 to 88 cents, and so in the 96-gallon cart, the average weight on that is 58 pounds, and so we set the rate based on those averages.

So sorry, Mary.

So somebody with the 96-gallon uh bin are isn't necessarily using all 96.

Correct.

But they're paying for it, yeah, they're paying for it.

So I will say back in pay for it because they might need it periodically, right?

You know, you know, I get that.

I was gonna say back in probably you know, a year or two before the pandemic, back in the late teens, uh, former mayor gamba really, you know, we kind of drilled down on this question and wanted to have the rates be more lower for the smaller and higher for the bigger and and have more of a gap in those.

And and I yeah, I don't know if we've got the right one now.

I do seem to recall from last year when we were comparing rates across other you know, cities like Oswego and Westland and stuff.

I feel like you called them one of one or two cities out for having really done that, for having really put heavier charges on the larger um can bins.

Am I right about that?

I I I can't recall um because I I mean it's pretty standard for the city's compare rates.

Yeah, but if I do remember when uh when when the mayor went out uh and Dean Camper was with waste manager, and they went out and they looked at cans and cars and they walked the neighborhood.

Uh because Mark was concerned that that people with big containers were throwing away, you know, they weren't recycling.

What he found out was just the opposite that that people were with larger cars were actually recycling as much or more and doing it well.

Um and his concern was that he didn't want to see garbage or he wanted to see recycling and recycling cars.

So I think if I recall correctly, he was presently surprised on what he found during this during his walk around building this.

Um and you know, my my personal opinion is I would rather have the rate on a 96 be affordable than punitive, because the one thing that uh I people don't realize is if you have a 35-gallon cart and you got 60 gallons worth of garbage, and you got this nine the 64 or 96 gallon cart for recycling, and you run out of volume for your garbage, where do you think that garbage is gonna go?

Because people aren't gonna sit on it for a week, they're gonna put in a recycling cart, they're gonna put it in the yard degree cart.

So, my my opinion is give them the capacity to throw garbage in the garbage container and throw recycling in the recycling container.

Um and and if you teach, and you're always gonna have the exception, we're not gonna do it, or gonna uh contaminate it.

But for the most part, if you explain, you know, here's what I want you to put in the recycling, the yard degree in the car because you know, 90% of the people are gonna comply with that.

They're gonna look at it, they're gonna make you know, make that change.

So, and we did this a couple years ago.

We we changed the rates in Tiger.

We went from that huge delta between the containers.

And so if you look at the rates in Tiger, they're pretty close by a lot of people went from the 35 gallon to the 64 gallon, and we were hoping to see a change in the contamination.

The problem is we didn't have enough information, and we didn't run enough routes in a pandemic hit to really find that to make that determination.

But again, I would you know, my personal opinion is I would rather people get a bigger container and throw their garbage in the garbage container than it did than somewhere else.

Well, that's that's a valid point.

I can see that.

Um the other thing too, I I don't believe.

Um, how many we don't have a lot of the people with the 96, right?

Can you give us a breakdown?

I'm gonna give that to you right here.

The number of people right now in the 96 gallon card in throughout the city.

Uh see here it is 375.

So that's like two percent.

Yeah, it's 6,000 over most of your customers in 35 gallons.

Other thoughts, other questions?

Counselor Stavanger, anything from you?

Um yeah, a couple extra slides.

Uh okay, sorry, yeah, there's more than just residential.

Yeah, sorry.

The other change is the injury or drop box, and for now we're we're we're we're we're requesting a couple changes.

We're increasing the RP for two or thought on the labor increase.

And so you're gonna see um, and I apologize here because it says current rate 181, rate three two dollars, it shouldn't be one dollar eighty-free, one ninety-three, two oh three, two twenty-three, two fifty-free on that for both rate.

So it should be you know the two to three dollars higher, and I apologize for that over site.

Um, but the two things changes here is the increase in the delivery fee.

Yeah, um, when we were looking at the the average time, the average haul time to go from point A to point B to take them to bring a box to the customer.

We initially set the uh the rate, assuming a 20-minute turnaround time, and the turnaround time is significantly higher, it's around 40 minutes to get a box, take the customer, place it, and you go on.

And so this increasing delivery fee from 48 to 95 represents the additional time necessary to get that box in place at the customer.

And you know, not only is there are you placing the box at the customer, there's also the depending on on the situation.

A lot of times these are residential homes, and so there's a place in the box, or maybe a waiver that has to be signed that they're gonna be utilizing the driveway that we need to be a place that has to be moved or cleared up to accommodate that box.

So it's not just there necessarily getting the box there, dropping off and leaving.

There's there's some some other additional time expended by the driver to place that box.

And then the other change that we were pre-requesting is the decrease in the uh in the trip time or the allowable uh fee assessment for mileage.

So a significant portion of the hauls take place from the industrial area to Hillbrook landfill.

These are special boxes and special wastes that have to be delivered out there, and so initially it was 18 miles, and as we were looking at the numbers, we'd like to reduce that from 18 miles to 12 months.

Like the box the mileage rate the same, but increase or decrease decrease by six miles to twelve.

And so those are the three primary changes that were requested for drop boxes.

What if uh what does that do essentially?

Like what what was the reason like the reason for lowering it six miles?

How did you guys get these six miles?

The congestion, uh, the distance, even though the one thing that we're seeing is the drop box is primarily um uh the time and distance.

So the the average run cost for a draw box uh looking at Milwaukee is around 125 an hour to run that truck.

So the the average run cost for a draw box uh looking at Milwaukee is around 125 an hour to run that truck, and so when we we put the mileage fee in place a couple years ago because it it didn't make sense to have a huge rate for the in-town box hall.

So for example, if if you're a homeowner and you wanted to get a temporary box for some uh for a cleaner, you know, the average short amount of time in Milwaukee is pretty quick because the transfer station at Metro South is it's right there at the you know at Oregon City, and so to pick up the box, dump it and get back, it doesn't take a lot of time.

So utilizing an average rate based on those halls to Hillsborough Landville didn't make sense.

So we do is we we we assess that mileage fee to capture that additional drive time from the locky to distant landfills or other facilities outside of Milwaukee.

So for example, uh there was some special uh load that we're taking central, there was some local rotation greenway, which is by Metro Central, and so the drive time to get from point A to point B is increased because of the traffic.

And so this is a means to increase the rate without increasing the uh the the overall rate to account for those those those distance or that additional drive time so it's to a traffic outside of the city.

Uh, how much is it over 12 miles?

It's it's uh five dollars and twenty-five cents a mile after twelve.

You're saying something from the point pickup to the point of post.

So it's not charged at all if it's within twelve miles.

Not a mileage charge.

There's a delivery fee, but there's not a mileage charge.

Correct.

That only that that minds that violence assessment takes place from the point of picking up the box to to the uh the final uh destination.

And so they uh you know, for example, I think waste pattern has a little calculator.

I think it's 32.2 miles from precision gas parts to ill manual, and so when I looked at their their their mileage, it would it was dead on it.

They had I think you know 2200 hauls last year uh times 32.5 times uh five dollars and the dollar's exactly that.

So they were charging it, you know, that that that difference that 32 less 18 was then was the mileage charge.

So I guess my charge after it starts it's it's charged after mile 12.

My concern about the drop to 12 miles is I think that is gonna rope in the drops to Metro South, because I think Metro South is probably from at least substantial parts of Milwaukee is probably right around 12 miles round trip.

Okay, so then okay, for your concern then, um, because I have the same concern.

I have the same concern if we do that, map that out for the from the farthest point in in the city metro south, if it's rate or whatever that distance is that's longer than that, then would you support uh a rate that says anything beyond that?

And here's the other thing I got that that that I share with you.

Um I would use it to the closest facility that can accept that weight.

So for example, um if you were to collect garbage uh you know in Milwaukee and take it to Metro South, that's the closest facility.

However, fourth place and cave would also have their own transfer stations.

So uh and usually when I see this, we made this adjustment.

If they wanted to take it to, let's say Travale or to Handy and drive past Metro South, you know, the rate signal supported, and the rate to the additional mileage should be charged.

So the way it should read is it's to the closest permitted facility.

If the hauler wants to take it somewhere else, then the hauler bears the burden of that additional cost.

Right.

Well, that makes sense.

Yeah.

Chris, can you clarify?

So if you go 13 miles under this proposed rate, do you pay five dollars 25 cents, or do you pay 13 times $5.25?

Uh the way I see it, you would pay $5.25.

But we can check that and find out what the charge.

So would it be would that be a total of 1050?

Because it's 13 miles.

You're paying 525 for the 12, and then you're paying an extra five for the other mile, right?

No, so that's what I was asking.

He says you only pay past 12.

Right, so if you have 13.

You would pay $5.25 if you have 13 minus 12 times 5.5.

12 miles are free.

I got right, right.

So what what would it have what would the to keep it at 18 miles?

What would the change in the mileage fee had to have to have been?

Was it that big of a was that a big jump?

No, I don't actually don't think so.

Um Chris does that matter.

I just went in and put some addresses into Milwaukee just to see the Metro South.

From here, it's about 165 miles and the Metro 30, you know, just one way.

Um to the top of Johnson Creek, um, or 30 seconds by Johnson Creek is 8.5 miles.

Um so it looks like it's under.

I also just grew a circle around and it falls as the crow flies fall within 12 miles.

But your question is fair.

Is it round trip or is it just one way?

Yeah, that's what I thought I said too is round trip.

You're not just one way, one way.

Oh, it's one way.

Okay.

One way, yeah.

No, it's not round trip.

That's good.

Yeah.

And the reason is not round trippy because it usually typically it is acting good.

That box is dumb, and then it came into another location, another couple of eight.

Or take it back in the yard.

Well, so in that case, they'll even be paying for Metro South.

Seems like yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, that's the working fee increase is crazy.

Pardon?

The delivery fee increase, that's a massive job.

That's a big job.

Any other questions with drop bots or you want to go to the next slide, Chris?

I think it's still probably working out there.

We need an additional 250 per mile.

Sorry, I didn't follow what's 250?

If you kept it at 18 miles.

So the question then becomes what would be the increase if you were to take that the six miles at 525.

Uh-huh.

So it would be 775.

So if it's 3150 and you divide it by let's say it's uh let's say it's 32 minus 15.

Yeah, if you shoot it'd be true.

An additional $2.25 per mile.

So instead of $5.25 and keep it at 18, it would increase to the 75 and 50 cents.

And that would apply to all the business.

Yeah.

It's the same fact, yeah.

All right.

Is there another slide?

There is.

Okay.

There it is.

Oh just that one.

So Chris, I'd like to talk about Metro.

Maybe we have to go back to some slides, but I uh went back and looked at the reports and the actually the videos of the various uh meetings we've had over this over the past couple years.

That's right.

That's actually my day.

Um let me start off by saying that we recognize the really big cost increases uh occurred at Metro during and after uh COVID.

And that's when we were really concerned that you know that the you know the cost increases were were really great.

And we were actually told on Metro in a meeting here in this building, that um those increases were for a couple reasons.

One, the cost of uh you know splashing things went up as we've alluded to, and uh to try to keep uh the rate increases from being even greater that uh metro was not charging the cost of service that and so they were you know you know that you know for instance I'll use real numbers instead of uh uh a nine percent increase, they might have been looking at like a 15% increase, and so that they were not covering the cost of of their business.

And um I remember being told you know that uh basically um once that you know glide path and recovery period of almost four years, I think it was, uh, was behind us, then they expected you know rate increases to go down again to sort of their normal you know, four to six percent.

I mean, if you look at the years before that, that they were pretty flat for a long time.

And so last year, as I remember, you correct me if I'm wrong, is that I think the increase was 5.8% from Metro.

And now did I hear we go up to nine again?

So I guess I you know the the question for Metro is you know what happened to the recovery projection.

Well, if I got that right, Chris.

Um you're asking a loading question.

Okay, okay.

They know my opinion as far as you know over you know, some of the things that Metro's done over the last few years.

If I got the facts right, you know, yeah.

Um I don't want to be harsh.

I don't want to be, you know, but I have to also be you know be honest.

There's there's a lot of things that are going on.

Metro is looking at now running the transfer station with metro personnel, and they're gonna eliminate the um the contractor ecology, which I'm running the transfer stations.

Um there's a lot wrapped up in that ticket fee, a lot.

Um, it's not necessarily just the operation of the transfer stations, it's it's a lot of people, it's a lot of planners.

It's um if you see the orange chart uh for the waste uh uh versus what it was 10 years ago, uh you know, the amount of people is doubled.

Um there's a couple things that I think you know, as elected officials, you guys need to ask specifically.

Number one, what's our recovery rate?

Why hasn't it been reported since 2020 sixteen?

Um because for our metro sole big objective was to increase that diversion rate to 62, uh two and a half percent of our recall kind of so the recovery has been down significantly.

Uh and they're having challenges, you know, COVID one of them.

But in the private enterprise, um, when I worked at waste management, we had operations, and when the operations weren't making money, we got rid of them.

Um action when the operations are not making money, they make changes to the personnel and the operations.

That that hasn't happened.

Yeah, it's not happening.

They wire a lot of people.

Um the cost still continue to actually the diversion is down.

There's just a lot of questions.

And I think that um if if they wanted to have an open process, they would have an open process.

I know that the the uh mayors and Sherwin and Viewton have a lot of questions regarding the rates and very vocal, and you'd like to see um you know a lot of cloud process.

I work with a colleague who used to work at Metro, and he is his uh recollection is that they would put together the budget and it would meet with every jurisdiction to explain where the costs were, what they're gonna do at the end.

That doesn't happen anymore.

Um everybody waits for metro to come up with a number.

And so I think that that as far as being um and the other problem that I have to meet personally is that the solid waste management plan is not based on on waste iron processes and procedures.

Um you know, it's not not founded in diversion or or management, it's bounded in equity inclusion, which is completely different than waste management.

And so I think if the objectives were to operate the transfer station's highest efficiency, the highest diversion, you would put together a plan that says this is how we're gonna do it, and you would you would you would uh execute that thing.

And I don't think that's happening.

Um I think that if they were really guys of looking at the cost, you know, a lot of these questions would be answered in that process.

Um one of the things that that I've been telling uh my clients is um if you're in a cell caller, you know, the cost to utilize metro your cell bar is around $50 to drive to the gate.

Um the nice thing is in in a lot of those other cities, you know, it's less than $50 a month to have garbage service picked up.

So I you know that that high rate for some cars does have a benefit because you know, giving people the choice whether they want to sell bar or they want to utilize the services of the franchise callers.

That's a good thing in my opinion.

But but again, the bad thing is when you're paying a lot of money for regarding services, at some point people whether they might be able to in Milwaukee and everywhere else.

This service is not mandated.

It's elected.

So a lot of a lot of a lot of people choose not to have garbage like the services because either it's too higher or they they've got alternative needs.

So to your question, there hasn't really been an open process that explains what's online metro regarding the the garbage the the garbage rates.

When you were the city, the city has an input.

They uh you know, in this case, the finance director looks at this information.

I'm hired to do that.

I work with the haulers, and so there's a lot of accountability that comes through this process.

If Metro has a similar process that the haulers do and the franchise uh jurisdictions do, you have a lot more uh questions that would be answered throughout the process, and I think you get a better file.

So you mentioned a couple of cities uh that have been agitating about the rates.

Are they represented Metro has a board for this, right?

Are they represented on the board?

They're not they are not you know who's on the board.

Right, they are.

Are they I I think Mayor Rosner and Mayor 80 from the city of Beaver.

Oh, Beaverton's on Court.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

The Clack representatives are Marcus Schrader and uh Denise McGriff, and of course um Christina is the vice chair of the advisory committee.

Well, this is Mayor McGriff's last year of being mayor, so there will be an opening there if uh anybody wants to step into that, and maybe we should be having a conversation with our reps.

I just want to I'm sorry, I was I feel like I was inarticular.

I want to restate my observation.

And my observation was that the metro rates averaged 13% in the years um 2020 to 2024.

13 percent increases each year.

Each year, okay.

It was a total of uh 65 percent.

Then last year, that increase was 5.8.

Good news, right?

Now we're back at 9 and 11.

We're double those from last year.

And so this is you know, this is not what Metro total is over in the commerce room over there in 2024 that they expected these to go back to historical increases.

And so maybe it's only one year, but it's certainly in the wrong direction, and it's not insignificant.

Yeah, do you know what justification they gave for that higher increase?

Like we said, we don't know.

That's what Chris said.

Yeah, so that's like an OD situation.

Please no process public meetings.

They are public meetings, but I will tell you.

Have you gone and watched the public meeting?

I have watched some of them.

Okay, and I looked at every one of the agendas, and the agendas is all about the system plan and what they're doing to deal with waste.

There's not a lot of attention from my perspective, and I will admit my audit is not a hundred percent complete.

No, I uh I uh but I I looked at look at these things, and uh I just didn't see a lot of attention paid uh to uh to the cost rates.

So I'd love to join that board.

Well, let me okay.

So the board is um people sign up for two-year terms, and they can be extended for one or two years.

How that process takes place, I I can't figure it out.

You know, I think people just say I'll serve another year, and they kind of barely you know stay on the board.

To the mayor's point, we know that Denise's position is gonna become open.

They meet every month.

It's just going in the wrong direction.

Great to have a Milwaukee representative on that board.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, Mayor McGriff serve out the rest of this calendar year.

I mean, I haven't talked to her about it.

I mean, I she probably will.

So when we do our uh they will do a recruitment, they will do a recruitment in the fall.

Okay.

And announce it.

Okay.

How many are going to be open, how many people are looking for.

Yeah.

And uh, you know, they they have it broken up by you know, by communities of interest, and then you know, geographics, and that could be but in the meanwhile, I mean, I there's nothing that keeps us from trying to have conversation with both American group and I'm sure about it.

Yeah, I'm just per your affordability goal, that would be good.

Maybe action steps for council.

Well, I you know, I I I've gathered some of this information over a few months, but I wanted to hear this latest on the increases from extra, so I wish it was close to five pointing, but it's in the wrong direction.

Yeah.

I appreciate you bringing that up actually very much.

Do you want to keep thinking about it, or would maybe a couple of representatives of you want to reach out to our Clackamas County representatives on that board?

And I'm thinking with you know Council Coast Rabati as the affordability lead.

I'd love to.

I'll do it.

Counselor Massey as the hawk watching this the trash hawk.

That'd be awesome.

Okay.

We'll go in costume.

We'll put we'll put bins over our trash hawk.

I'll scare the drugs.

Okay.

Okay, you and I'll sort it out.

But I think that'll have three targets.

Great.

Yeah.

More the better, in my opinion.

Yeah, that's awesome.

Um on a different topic, uh the staff report told us about the uh the survey of residents and uh love for the multi-ways day, which I think we all knew was true.

And but the part that was a surprise to me was the high percentage you knew about food recycling.

Yeah, um, really high, higher than I expected.

Um so I mean staff recommended keeping both of those programs.

I tend to agree with that, but I wanted to make sure everyone else was in agreement with that recommendation too.

That's right.

I was shocked by how high it was too.

But it's a programming use.

That's great.

Okay.

So before we wrap this, we just to clarify, we're not making a decision tonight today on rates.

We would be adopted on the June 2nd fee schedule.

But are you comfortable with us moving forward with the proposal shown by Chris today and putting that into the fee schedule?

Yeah.

Like Chris was trying to talk.

Anything you wanted to add, Chris?

No, no, I just go to the I I like the session deal.

We want to split the input, get what you you know if they like to buy what you support when you go to the board if you have changes, or you come back and that one changes, or I don't want to do this.

Let us know.

Um we can then that report that or I'll end that report uh per your in place.

Uh and if you have uh any other things that you want me to address, I will do that for you.

Any changes or additional topics you'd like Chris to address.

No, I I would just like to say thank you, Chris, for all the work you do.

Um, and I appreciate your your responses to some of the tough tougher questions.

Um and to the haulers, I appreciate you all your transparency.

You guys have done nothing but try to do everything you can to work with us.

You've been more willing partners than other entities, so I just want to say I appreciate you, and uh, you know, we see the the pressure that that Metro puts on you all.

Okay, we can we'll move over doing it in the fee schedule.

I did also want to ask while we're here and while our friends are in the audience.

You know, we we you took action on the franchise agreement at the end of last year, and we did talk about bringing that back for further conversation about next steps.

Um their direction council was to provide our own ideal timing for when that would come back.

We wanted to get through budget.

Yeah, need to breathe.

Well, um, I hadn't really thought about the timing.

I mean, I know that the I did hear from the haulers and they are interested in doing it sooner rather than later.

Um they also did offer us a tour of uh a waste connectionslash K hood's um recycling facility out in the Clackamas industrial area.

Um so I I wanted to see if people were interested in having that tour.

Is that something we want to book as a group or um uh and maybe we do try and do that, you know, in June or July, and then and then to the kind of franchise discussion.

September-ish, August, September ish franchise agreement to discuss it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

August.

I had a follow-up question from last year, and it was revolved around, you know, um customer service.

And um, you know, it was like uh we had this interesting discussion about gee, was was was Michael the customer service operator?

Remember that scale?

Coordinator, coordinator, you remember that?

You know, wasn't that where the calls coming to you and and and that kind of thing?

I think we kind of got away from that, but I I you know, you know, again, I go back to you know, I I hate to put a lot of uh searching on the residents if they have something wrong.

You know, ideally it'd be one button, you know, it'd be the easy button, you know.

I got a problem.

Um but I don't know.

Has there been any resolution of that?

Um so a couple things.

One is anything that gets to my desk.

I have a direct client to Dave and Chris who are excellent at getting something done.

The other change that has come is no Amy Francis, who's our utility pillar.

Her husband just happens to work in management management.

And if I have anything that somebody is if it gets to me, I let him know, and he immediately handles it.

I think there's a problem in that when residents go to waste management itself, they're going to the corporate area in Phoenix, and getting that to the dispatch and the management here can be a challenge.

But once we get it to management here, they're awesome at addressing it, coming back, picking it up.

Um there was a lady two weeks ago that had broken her foot and she had contacted and wanted to see if they could pick up her trash from her backyard instead of the front yard.

I let them know waste management came out and did it.

Um so kind of to answer your question, there's a bust in the from my point of view in the corporate structure of how they take customer complaints and fix them.

Put on from this team that's sitting over there.

I think that they're excellent if once it gets to my desk, they take care of it.

But the problem is how many don't get to your desk.

Yeah.

I mean, because we don't have a trash, and if somebody goes on the city website, they don't see trash department or garbage hauler, you know.

I mean, I don't know how the ones that get to your desk actually end up at your desk.

But I I did I do recall when we were looking at what some of the other cities were doing that there were some dedicated surveys and some dedicated like sort of focus group times after at a three-year or five-year interval or something, and I do feel like when we talk about new franchise forms, we want to think about serving someone.

Yeah, I think staff would appreciate that too.

There is in the the code that and the franchise agreement that was you voted to end, there was something about a mid-year check-in, but frankly, it was quite vague about what that included.

Um and I think that I would love clearer direction from you on what you expect from the customer service side.

And I agree with you, Mayor that we don't we don't know what we don't know.

I will say from my stance, I I don't hear about waste concerns.

Um that's not the top thing that's wonderful, Michael.

That's wonderful homework.

That is not a one-button solution.

Yeah, right.

Okay.

Now I'm gonna add in my personal experience.

Okay.

And so I'm kind of a boy scout, and I like to follow the rules, and so I went, you know, uh to the website and was directed to waste management and said, if you got a problem, fill out this form, send it in, tell us what's the problem is, blah blah blah.

I did it, you know.

I said, we'll get back to you when you're uh when you're gonna, you know, I need a replacement.

He said, we'll get back to you, I don't know, two or three days of when you'll get it.

Didn't hear anything back, and so I said, okay, I'll call the 800 number, and I guess I talked to someone in Phoenix, and I said, when's my new one coming?

And they go, yeah, so you put it in the system, and I don't have record of it.

Okay.

And they said, but I'll take care of it, and I'll get you in the system.

And she got got into the system, and I may deliver it during my next uh you know, Tuesday thing.

And so um if anything like that happens to me, I am never gonna call you.

Because I know if I call you, you'll recognize my name, it'll get taken care of that afternoon.

But that's not how you're going to deal with most residents, okay?

And so if if we want the home line thing to be the one button, I'm okay with that.

You know, I know how to do it, you know.

Um but you gotta make it work.

And if you want it to be the 800 number in Phoenix, I'm okay with that too, as long as it works.

But I think that uh, you know, all of this.

I quite frankly don't want Michael in this business.

You know, I don't want to be in it.

Okay.

So I don't want to tell you how to do it.

I'm just saying it's not where we want it to be.

Okay.

I think I've had this conversation a little bit with Dave, and I think they agree with you.

Um corporate to hear this and figure out a better way.

Okay.

It's a data point.

That's all it is.

You want to both go talk to them too?

What's that?

You want to both go talk to corporate too?

No, no, no, no, we're doing that.

So, in terms of term of redex, we'll put um Emma and Scott, kind of our gatekeepers on our schedule, so we'll have them contact you and try and figure out a date for uh I was also thinking we have our facility at KV recycling and we have Pioneer Recycling, which processes all the co-mingle recycling from the curb here.

And they're two or three miles apart, so maybe we can do both of them.

That'd be great.

Okay.

All right.

If no further questions or comments, uh I think we yeah.

Good to go forward with the fee schedule next month.

Uh we're keeping bulky waste, Milwaukee.

That's one of our big events of the year.

There's now a community garage sale.

Before the bulky waste.

Yeah, and then more neighborhoods are doing it here.

Yeah.

And I will say it would be so interesting to find out of all that stuff that's put on the curb.

How much of it is recycled to other users.

I bet it's really a high percentage.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because I put things out and they're gone before the holiday pair.

Well, and we know from just Facebook comments and other things that all the people who live around Milwaukee are very jealous of the bulky waste.

And I suspect we have some people bringing their stuff in to the city.

But anyway.

Um if you don't mind very just mentioned too, we worked with city staff.

Uh we requested the boundary line was a little uh off kilter.

I mean, there was one week that was really heavy and one week that was really light.

And it caused our trucks to be out there on that one Saturday until late in the evening.

And so they did uh prove that that's adjustment.

So now I think it's um when Rose 3 is kind of the boundary line uh between the two weekends, which will really help out in terms of the two subjects.

Okay, all right.

Okay, well, thank you, everyone.

Thank you, Chris.

Thank you, Chris.

Thank you.

We will move on to her next item, which is the manufacturing and business industrial zones.

Thanks for coming.

Thank you.

Good evening.

So we have first and Matthew and Ellis.

I think it's both of your first times presenting to us.

That's welcome.

Yeah.

First time here, right?

Yeah.

Be nice, counsel.

We we can take it.

Very good.

Okay, usually.

So yeah, uh good evening, Mayor Council.

Uh uh Matthew Ellis uh here with my associates.

Well, of course.

Yeah, uh here to talk about some uh changes that we're proposing to the manufacturing and business industrial zone.

Um and kind of the uh walking through the process that we've done to get to this point and then uh what where we're going next.

So um first kind of uh helping to kind of locate us.

Um we have uh a total of four of what we would consider manufacturing zones in Milwaukee.

Um we'll start with up here in the corner.

Oh, that's not showing up on there.

That's okay.

Um in the northeast corner, we have the manufacturing zone um, which uh runs uh along Johnson Creek Boulevard, kind of on both sides.

Um primarily uh uh are the the large user there is PCC or Precision Casper Corporation outside of PCC and and kind of their um uh group there, uh there's a few small manufacturing businesses and lay down uh contractor lay down yards um as well as the the city's uh public works uh uh Johnson Creek Boulevard um uh facility on the far east side.

In the southeastern corner, we have the BI zone or the business industrial zone, uh, primarily business park development, um, several key businesses to the city of Milwaukee, including boarding tool, Braveside Brewery, Dave's killer bread, Parker Megit, formerly the Bob's Red Mill site, um that that's all kind of incorporated in the BI zone uh along international way.

Um then outside of those uh big uh campuses, we have a lot of multi-tenant buildings, so offices, um uh the Northwest Pair um lobby group um also has a building there, so kind of a smattering of other like um office type users.

Um, and then um in the northwestern corner, we have the North Milwaukee Innovation Area Um, which um is comprised of the North Milwaukee employment zone, and then the Matza, which stands for the mixed use Tacoma Station Area uh zone.

Um the uh those were rezoned from manufacturing.

So it uh both the NMIA and the M zone used to all be zoned manufacturing until 2018 when council adopted the NMIA plan and uh the associated code changes.

So uh the NMIA zone was updated in 2018, but uh the M zone standards were left uh from when they were written um uh the early 2000s.

Oh sorry, Matthew visually did you say NMIA is within M U T S A?

It's it's kind of a super uh uh area.

So the NMIA is both the NME and the Matza.

Okay, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah.

Yeah, so it's it's broken, the NMIA is broken up into time.

It's more permissive for certain things.

Yeah, yeah.

And then um, yeah, so uh yeah, uh the both uh both the M zone and the BI zone during our analysis um uh we we found that it uh is almost completely built out, and that's also what we heard um when we met with folks.

Um there is only I think one vacant parcel in the BI zone, and that is a uh a wetland.

Um and then there uh is some redevelopment opportunities in the M zone.

There's some existing residential kind of interspersed into the um into the zone from uh before it was zone manufacturing.

You're talking there about the North Milwaukee.

No, you're talking about the BI, you've got the M zone in the northeastern corner.

Oh, there's still some residential.

Yeah, it's part of the the Llewellyn neighborhood there.

Yeah, so um a little bit of background from the code, so and and kind of what the project is.

So the current and uh proposed purposes of both of these zones is to provide clean employee-intensive uses, uh, really wanting that there are jobs creators as as we're calling them internally.

Um and our project is really uh, you know, I I know that on the um the briefing material it was uh called an overhaul project, but uh that was you know, maybe more at the beginning.

We thought that there was gonna be some more changes needed, but as we got into the analysis, we realized that uh the scope is as much narrower and it's really more focused on modernization, um, and and we'll talk about kind of uh why that is based on the feedback that we received.

Um and then the updates that we're proposing are are primarily in four categories.

So to um remove outdated uses such as photo processing, newsstands, and beauty parlors, um, to uh get rid of some uh unnecessary or uh overly restrictive discretionary standards such as a requirement in the BI zone for uses in the BI zone to serve primarily the users of the BI zone.

So trying to like keep everything contained uh uh outdated formatting.

So a lot of our zones have moved their uses into a use table, which is much easier for both staff and users in the zone to kind of see what is allowed and what isn't allowed, um, as well as to provide or to move from uh discretionary standards to uh to some more clear and objective standards, kind of uh in the same vein and and heart that uh with which we do that with housing or you know, with housing, it's really a requirement, but uh wanting to provide our users as they're coming to us with clear and objective standards that they can meet to uh for this industrial development.

How I'm curious as to why you were motivated to do that last one.

Yeah, housing is is dictated by the state.

Um do you find you spending a lot of time?

Uh are you getting a lot of applications where there's issues about the standards?

Uh uh no.

I um I I think that more it's um and one of the things we'll talk about is that we're not expecting to see a lot of redevelopment opportunities, but when there are opportunities for redevelopment, we want uh we want as easy of a process for people when they when they come in, it's more of a customer service thing.

We we want people to be able to read our standards, know exactly what they need to provide and get uh better first submissions because every submission can take two to four weeks to turn around comments and then two to four weeks to address the comments, and so we're it's more of a uh customer service trying to uh approach that.

And actually, just to jump in as well.

Um when we talk a little bit more about the discretionary standards, we'll get into a bit more but um the where we're kind of thinking in the direction that we're planning to move in is to maintain the existing discretionary discretionary standards, but to sort of add um supplementary learning objective standards.

We do this in the non-residential building design standards as well.

There's basically two tracks.

Um I know you all get land use notifications, so you've probably seen there's been a couple development review applications in the BI zone recently.

Um those are type two applications.

Um and so the idea would be that um by having clear and objective standards, it would essentially allow folks an opportunity to design their projects to sort of another set of standards that would allow them to go through a sort of quicker type one process.

Um currently we're not proposing to sort of eliminate those discretionary standards.

It would be sort of just another option for folks.

Before we go on, I I have sort of an off-the-wall question, but it's related.

Um there are about three or four houses on that little parallel street.

I think it's OGCO.

They look like houses.

But I think they might be businesses.

I think one is like a stone cutter marble, and one might be a uh air salon, I think.

Is are all those houses been converted to businesses?

Yes.

All of them.

Those ones are not residential.

I mean, I I still put across the place with them of people who live here, and then I look at them and it looked like it was businesses, but I only really saw signage or a couple of them, so I wasn't sure about the other one or other two.

The ones on OCCO, I believe, have all been converted into those have all been commercial.

The ones on Johnson Creek, those ones there are still a handful, probably half a dozen that are still actually.

Yeah, so the ones you see from McLaughlin, yeah, are probably all businesses, but there are definitely some still residential back there in a lot of Johnson Creek.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Oh yeah, so um, and just to kind of run you through the process, we did uh detail uh some of this in the um staff report, but uh we started with the pure cities review looking at other cities in the metro, seeing how they're approaching their manufacturing zone.

Um we also conducted, it's not on the slide, but uh we also conducted uh a vacancy analysis, so the city has access to economic development data.

Um we were able to uh find out that um in the last year we've had a 1.7% vacancy rate in the uh this was uh in the BI zone.

Um sorry, no, this is in both the M and BI zone.

Um and then uh uh over the last 10 years, the average vacancy rate has been 2.4%.

So a very stable uh district with long-term users.

We're not seeing a lot of like turnover and empty spaces.

Um and then uh when we did uh the BLI analysis, um we uh did that again over just the uh M zone and BI zone using what Metro used when they did their VLI analyses in 2016.

Um every uh parcel uh other than the one vacant parcel, which is the wetland, um, was uh uh far too expensive uh for purchase and redevelopment based on the strike prices um adjusted for inflation that were used in 2016.

So they basically the the uh layperson's way of saying that is that we don't expect turnover of these structures anytime soon.

It's still uh a very profitable uh the buildings that are currently there.

Um and then um uh that was kind of the internal research and then our uh external public engagement.

Um we met with uh several of our government partners, um, significant businesses again in in the BI zone uh and uh reached out to those in the M zone, as well as reaching out to uh about uh a dozen to 18 um commercial real estate brokers who are you know on the ground and had uh listings on the ground in in those zones.

Um so yeah, so from the feedback that we received, um we uh we first heard uh a desire to maintain flexibility to new businesses uh to uh avoid unnecessary hurdles and barriers to entry and the the biggest hurdle is often use categories.

So um uh uh if for a user to come in, their use has to be listed in the the use table.

We want to make sure that we're capturing the uses that we want to keep and keeping out the uses that we don't want to have in those use tables, and so um in both them in both zones we've maintained broad uh manufacturing and production allowances.

Um we also um again with that relatively stable um with those relatively stable zones, uh we don't want to uh be making changes that would displace or encourage you know displacement of these users, and so uh uh there's a real desire to maintain um stability for the existing businesses.

Um and so uh we we have uh made sure that the the businesses that have chosen to cite in these zones are reflected um in the uh proposed uses.

Um and then as well uh to uh protect um industrial lands.

Um in Milwaukee, we have very small amount of industrial land, about 10% by land area.

And so we don't want uh low employment generators uh kind of infiltrating and uh taking over that land.

We we want you know the jobs to be uh present as much as we can.

Um and then from our uh more private side folks, uh we heard a very similar thing of maintaining flexibility as you know, commercial real estate agents uh are helping users site.

They'll often look at our zoning codes.

Several of these commercial real estate brokers know enough about zoning code just enough to be dangerous.

Um they still call us uh to you know let us know.

Uh yeah, because they they still want to make sure and get uh you know thumbs up from us.

Um but they they can like read and interpret and and usually help their their users, otherwise we get a lot more calls.

Um and so they they encouraged flexibility where possible.

Um again, uh we heard the the limited available industrial land, so this was um you know uh a recognition of the the small space that both of our zones uh kind of take up in the city, as well as um uh uh desire to retain limited and uh limited allowances for uh commercial uses.

So for really kind of two main reasons.

Uh one was uh it provides nearby amenities for uh industrial uh employees in the zone.

You know, if you're uh eating lunch or if you're taking lunch at uh Dave's killer bread, you can walk down the street um to uh there's like several restaurants kind of uh in that area um instead of needing to get in your car and drive somewhere um uh kind of helping reduce those vehicle trips, um, as well as drawing customers in.

So one of the big things that we heard from Dave's killer bread was that since Bob's Red Mill has closed, they've seen uh you know a decrease in their visitorship.

There was a lot of cross-pollination, um, you know, users being or uh residents' uh money being brought into Bob's Red Mill or Dave's killer bread, and then kind of a cross-pollination between them.

So um a desire to maintain some of those retail uses that will bring people to the zone to increase money spent.

Um and now I'm gonna pass it over to Will to kind of talk about some of the changes that we're doing.

Can I ask a question for going because it was like in your presentation, but I was interested in you know, uh maintaining you know high wages?

Yeah, positions.

Yeah.

I guess my question is how do you define what are we living wages, whatever, whatever you're called?

How do you define really with who goes in?

Who doesn't?

Yeah, yeah, it's a really great question.

So we are only one um uh we're only one part of that equation to answer your second question first.

We're only one part of that equation.

We also have um uh an economic development man program manager who uh it works more on the programmatic side, and um she was uh an integral part.

Um I'm sure you've seen uh things from Sierra from time to time.

She'll work more on the you know, helping users cite or helping users navigate uh inside of the city.

Um we we're not targeting specifically like high wage employment or anything like that.

You know, we we obviously love as high wage employment as possible for you know the people who are working in Milwaukee, but um it's not really something from a regulatory perspective that we can um you know require encourage.

Uh really it's it's recognizing where those high wage jobs are.

So uh one of them is in like sustainable manufacturing, for example.

Those are uh you know high margin products which can turn into high wage jobs, um, and so making sure that we have allowances for sustainable manufacturing, for example, which is included.

Um so it's it's more about making sure that our use table kind of encapsulates the the users that we would want that would provide those high wage jobs versus you know uh you know we don't want we don't need more McDonald's at you know the $12 an hour or whatever, but you know, those lower wage things we'll we'll save those for the the more low density commercial zones that we have.

Well, do you do we have any reliable data on I mean it was first when you when you said a few minutes ago that um metro, I guess has data on the value of the property that tells us we're not we shouldn't expect to see a lot of redevelopment.

Do we have data on either wage rates or job density per acre for our zones?

Um that was a big when we did the NMIA plan, that was a big part of the discussion.

And it was concern that we have too much warehousing, that warehousing is not typically a high wage job.

Right.

And that how do we get it more to be production type work so that it is a higher wage job?

So now in today's era, the thing and I did see it called out in your staff report is the data centers.

Yeah, right.

Like we don't, those are definitely not high wage jobs.

Right.

And not very high density job density per acre.

Exactly.

Yeah, I um I don't know if we uh honestly, this is where I wish Sierra was here to be able to tell you what data we do have access to.

Um you were asking about job density.

I I mean I think that we can follow up with council and uh give you that information.

Um yes, we can or yes we do.

We can.

Okay.

So it was it was job density per acre, and then what was the other one maybe?

Wages.

Wage ranges, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I'll I'll talk to Sierra and we'll we'll talk to Sierra tomorrow, and uh we can get some like NFL up.

That'd be great.

Yeah, perfect.

So as I'm sure you all saw the staff report um because of one of the large changes that we're proposing is sort of the formatting elements, um, you know, taking all of these uses and putting them into a table format, um, just visually, it's a little bit difficult to follow.

Um, and so we have kind of pulled out the substantive changes here.

Um, sort of what you won't see here, but what is the majority of the changes?

Um, like I said, the formatting and things that Matthew mentioned earlier, sort of updating the uses to reflect sort of current uses or where they're used um in other zones like the NMIA um uh sort of using a consistent definition.

So that way if you're a business trying to locate in the city um and you obviously know what your business does, uh, and you're looking at the NMIA and then the M zone and the EI zone, you can slot yourself into one use category and all three versus you know slightly different manufacturing and production kind of uses.

Um so those pieces uh have been left out of this, but um for the M zone, the substantive changes uh that we are looking at uh are adding creative space uh as a permitted use.

The idea being that when we say creative space, what we're talking about uh is kind of like uh industrial adjacent artist uses, um, so things like uh a sculptor who does building um or some sort of uh you know, maybe pottery with kills and things like that, or glass blowing, something like that.

Um and adding this to the M zone with one sort of be consistent with how we are allowing or allowed uses in the NMIA.

And additionally just the sort of development types that we're seeing in the M zone, the scale of development.

There are a lot smaller spaces, so allowing these uses kind of slots into those sort of existing development that's there.

Additionally, uh wholesale trade.

We are proposing to allow that in the M zone.

Um and doing that similar to creative space is consistent with some of our other industrial zones in the NMIA.

Um also sort of goes back to the feedback that we heard about providing flexibility for folks that are you know manufacturers and producers and sort of these industrial adjacent uses.

Um so it's kind of that um consistency again and flexibility that we heard from from the folks we reached out to.

Um then, like I mentioned uh in terms of updating definitions for consistency, the uh existing industrial definition uh in the manufacturing zone was uh you know, included some language related to transhipment of goods and was just overall fairly unwieldy, and so we are um proposing to use uh general manufacturing and production uh definition that we're also using the BI zone, it is also used in the MIA.

And then finally this is this limited use allowance point is related to the last feedback bullet that was on the previous slide.

Um basically um there's a little bit of tension in the feedback we received, right?

Where um we were clearly hearing that we have limited industrial land and that it is has a low vacancy rate, and so there's a strong desire to protect that from both government agency partners and from you know business owners.

Additionally, um we also heard from business owners that you know, hey, we want amenities for our employees.

We have people who work here, they're looking you know to eat food on their lunch break.

Um and so as we were kind of talking, you know, with our team with staff, our team uh trying to understand the ways that we can um sort of help to provide those amenities while also you know preventing them from proliferating in the zone and pricing out um other users.

Um we are proposing to allow them as a limited use, and so that puts a size maxim maximum on the uses, uh limits them to 4,000 square feet, um, which in the M zone would be sort of consistent as well with some of the sort of smaller scale development.

Um additionally, as you probably know, there's uh uh the Portland Tuck era is there.

Um looking through the land use history, it looks like um it was operating sort of as a bar restaurant from before it was annexed to the city in the early 90s.

Um similar situation for retail oriented sales with Wigital feed and hardware.

Um so uh yep, essentially the the change on this front is to uh allow these uses as a limited use with that maximum size restriction.

And that's for both M and BI?

It is both for NBI.

Um it's a little bit different for the BI.

Um so in the BI, they're currently limited uses actually, so there's no change proposed there.

Um and I just switched to the BI zone slide.

Um, but uh the proposed change for um the BI is this sort of third bullet point here, which is removing the requirement that limited uses quote serve primarily the employees of the district.

Um and so there's no change in what's allowed um in terms of um uh you know them as eating establishment or them as limited uses, but the change is um sort of more consistent with what we're talking about in the M zone.

Uh the restriction is the maximum size, it's 4,000 square feet.

But they would be allowed anywhere in the zone.

Uh, like now we have the little shopping center on Freeman there, which is the node where all the um but this would allow them to be sprinkled more.

Yes.

I think it'd be I don't know at what extent you've talked to those businesses there, but I would I think I would like to hear their feedback.

Um my sense is that some of them struggle because they only get a lunch business, it's a hard uh hard to make and I noticed that like uh uh Meggett bring the Parker Meggett brings in food trucks a couple days a week, you know, um which I think is a great, you know, to see that.

But I guess I just want to make sure yeah that we're also hearing from those existing business owners in those kind of businesses.

Yeah, certainly if I could just jump in really quick.

There isn't a geographic limitation for those limited uses now.

Oh, there is no they they can in fact be located anywhere.

The the this language, this serving primarily in the least of the district is super discretionary.

I don't even know how we can evaluate that.

I don't know if we ever have in the past, so it's kind of just trying to pull some of this kind of discretionary language out, just because it's really kind of impossible to do with anyway.

Um but no, I think those nodes have been created there, but they don't have to be there.

Um somebody could open up a small sandwich shop or something, kind of anywhere in the UI zone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you for that clarifying.

Um then going back to sort of the top of the slide.

Um in the BI zone, uh, as a part of as we're kind of going through the uses and uh adding them into the sort of new format.

Uh we also noticed recycling centers essentially as a big standout in the BI zone in terms of sort of what the existing development pattern is, what the uses are that we're seeing there.

Um the business industrial zone is much more sort of a business park kind of a feel, um, and recycling centers were um sort of out of step with that um uh use type.

Um so those have been proposed currently they're allowed as an accessory use, but they're we're proposing to remove those uh that allowance.

Um then the change that we did propose to the limited, a change to the limited use allowance is for indoor outdoor recreation.

Um essentially uh they're currently allowed as conditional use, and we have seen a number of conditional use applications come through in the last five to seven years, um, which have been for small scale indoor recreation, essentially, you know, like a Piloty studio.

I think most recently there's maybe a or was a crawf Maga uh studio.

Um with the same sort of size limitation that we're seeing for limited use allowances, again, that's the 4,000 square foot max size.

Um essentially we're able to uh allow these small scale uses to enter these zones without having to go through the conditional use process, which is a type three review that goes to the planning commission and represents a fairly large burden uh for for those folks uh looking to locate in the zone.

Um then the last piece here, uh, which is something that was not uh included in the attachment, is related to the building and site design standards in the business industrial zone.

There's a handful of standards uh that are related to the building and site design, and they're very sort of discretionary.

Um there are things like oriented or you know, uh developing the lots so that you can easily surveil the property.

Um things like constructing the building out of durable materials, uh essentially standards that are difficult to demonstrate as the applicant, uh sort of difficult from an administration perspective as well.

Um and so this is that piece that we talked about briefly at the beginning about adding sort of objective standards as well.

So the idea here again is that the discretionary standards would be maintained if folks wanted to uh review a project to those discretionary standards, but if you were able to meet the objective standards and wanted to sort of have the sort of easier um process, that sort of type one process that you can do that.

Um sort of the driving force behind this is that as we've said, this zone is very built out, and what we're seeing are additions and alterations rather than new development.

Um so as you all know, international ways is fairly um you know organically shaped.

Um and so we've kind of put together one example of what uh the standard would look like.

Um and so currently there is a standard that sort of is related to the orientation of service activity and aimed at uh preventing the user experience, somebody in the BI zone from uh being one where you're seeing loading bays and um you know trash dumpsters uh sort of along the road, and so we have a standard that says uh that you are required to orient major service activity away from major streets.

Um but that presents a problem as folks are coming in with an existing you know site that has a building sited on it that maybe fronts along international way on one of its many curves, and they're trying to understand what facade can I put this uh loading bay on.

We have an active development review application right now that is in this exact situation.

They're they're building a sort of sighted um off filter to the road right where international way curves, and um, you know, there were a lot of conversations with the applicant trying to understand uh uh sort of how that would work, and um all of this to say um we're proposing a an objective standard that would uh set out clear standards for uh what we mean when we when we mean that service activity needs to be oriented away from major streets.

Um so that would give applicants uh some clarity um while still maintaining that flexibility um if they believed that they met sort of the discretionary standard and wanted to still pursue that route as opposed to the objective standard.

Um I'm happy to linger on this slide for a little bit longer if that's helpful.

I know there's a lot of words on here.

So this would only apply to new projects, I'm just saying it would yes, correct.

Um I mean it would also apply to additions uh if you were you know planning to do an addition as well, not necessarily just be construction, but um, if you were doing like an internal tenant improvement or something to that effect, um, then generally it wouldn't we're reviewing the site characteristics and sort of exterior facade elements.

Well, even modifications could be problematic, I think.

Right now, yeah.

The addition of new loading bays or something where we have folks retrofitting existing buildings, and our standards don't help us necessarily um in evaluating those projects.

So we're trying to make those a bit more clear.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, and then um moving on.

So we're of course talking to you all tonight, but the next steps a week from today, we have uh meetings scheduled with the planning commission.

Uh and then after we gather your feedback, the planning commission's feedback, um, we will uh create the the code language uh as well as those uh build inside design standards and bring that back to you.

Uh we're thinking in late summer, uh, July and August for hearings again with both you and the planning commission.

Um then finally we have a few key questions here that we wanted to uh use to maybe guide the conversation.

Uh and of course, if you have any additional feedback as well, we would be very interested in that um as well.

But you wanted to take these questions one at a time.

Um eating and retail establishments uh with limited uses, and currently you're we're saying 4,000 square foot with the slides limit.

Yeah, correct.

And the M zone is only Johnson Creek.

Johnson Creek.

It's not the BI zone.

Yeah, correct.

Yeah, and again, uh sorry to interrupt you, but the BI zone currently allows these as a limited use.

Uh, the only proposed change, uh, and I should be clear, uh currently less eating establishments as a limited use.

Um the only proposed change in the BI zone is removing that language that requires that they serve primarily the employees of the district.

Right.

Uh feelings on that first question.

I think that's fine.

Yeah, if to call us uniformity, I would think that you would want to do that.

Yeah, right.

I mean, I I do see a difference between Johnson Creek and International Way because Johnson Creek is a main thoroughfare, right?

People are on it who are not doing business at those businesses.

People are not typically on international way, who are not headed to a business along international way.

So I guess that's where I feel like um are we opening.

I mean, 4,000 square feet is pretty small, but are we opening up like a competing commercial zone to our existing commercial zones with this?

I guess is um is my only concern.

And yeah, yeah.

I guess at that point, like take our BI zone.

We allow for um we allow for retail-oriented um like restaurant uses, but they're only clustered in one area because that's what the market does.

It agglomerates services in one area, legalizing those commercial uses and the end zone doesn't necessarily mean that we'll see the market justify expanding there.

Yeah, one sort of other note on that point is that I think when it comes to these zones again, since they are very built out, um, as you think about the buildings that are there, um, these a lot of the spaces are not sort of fit for uh like sort of not currently built to house a restaurant.

Um, and so I think as uh you know, a potential restaurant is looking to locate what the costs are in terms of the tenant improvements that would be required.

Um I would imagine are are you know play a fairly large role as well in that and um that could be the case as well in the manufacturing zone.

What would be a retail-oriented operation that's probably served the workers in the area so that like a Bay uh yeah, that was that was why I stopped and rephrased in the BI zone.

It's eating establishments that are limited use, the retail sales is a separate piece.

So yeah, yeah, and um uh and it even to the the question for like uh the the addition of uh and I guess we can frame up this question a little bit better.

Um currently uh for both Wichita uh Futin Hardware and uh Portland Talkiera uh in the M zone that are existing uses from before it was annexed into the city, those are considered legally non-conforming uses.

And so part of this, and part of the addition of these uses is to help these users come like come out of legal non-conformity and you know come into basically conformity with the standards of the zone.

Um and so yeah, as far as um you know uh uh retail sales and service um uh in uh like as a an amenity or like serving the the folks there.

I I don't know that we would see a retail operation in the M zone that like um what served as an amenity, but uh you know, another example kind of down the street from which Tom Feed and Hardware is there is a um a small engine repair spot that also has some sales associated of you know projects that they've worked on and rehabilitated or something like that.

So the primary use of that uh site is the uh the small engine repair and service shop, but if they had like a retail component, it would allow them to incorporate that retail component into the into the use rather than you know needing to like uh hide that or like do that under the table.

Is that the location that has the embroidery shop on the second floor?

I think it's like next to it or on the second floor.

Uh I think I don't get it.

So I think it's like right next door, yeah.

I think it's on the second floor.

It's right above the I I haven't been.

Uh we we drive past it when we go to the JCB, but yeah.

Um the uh I mean I feel like we have, yeah, I mean retail, isn't there somebody selling pool tables or some familiar table?

I think I think it's primarily a production or uh repair location.

I I don't know if they have a showroom uh off the top of my head, but can I work more high levels?

Oh, sure.

Why is it we have three different zones that you've outlined?

The BI, the M, NMIA, and then let's set the I forget the Muta or the Matset.

Yeah, but set aside because it's clearly different.

Okay.

What's really the like policy differences between three zones and why what's the justification for not just having one industrial zone, one more to what console is that just standardization across the zone?

Or is it making it more?

Yeah, uh that's a great question.

So uh the um the NMIA uh and the NMIA makes up both the NME and North Milwaukee employment zone and the Mozart.

But the North Milwaukee employment zone.

Um when those standards were written in Vera can also chime in because I think Vera was here and maybe knows more about the NMIA plan.

But uh the the goal of that zone is really you know taking advantage of being along um McCullough and uh sorry, McLaughlin and uh uh 99 and and um there's a lot more like truck traffic and uh uh user traffic.

Um so um we also that's where the um millennial store is that the right name uh is also there.

So it's it's more about uh taking advantage of the the highway that kind of runs through it.

The BI zone um again uh not not as much uh distinct from the enemy and the M zone, the the BI zone is more about business park and um while it still has uh production uses um you see a lot more of the like wide campus um kind of like big uh big presence users um uh and and so it's serving a very different clientele than um than both the and people who are coming to the BI zone, you kind of as Mayor Beatty intimated, you don't really like accidentally find yourself in the BI zone.

In fact the M zone or the NME used to be zoned manufacturing for that reason but was uh changed as part of the NMIA plan to really kind of focus on those things.

So they they all serve three different purposes from a policy perspective they uh they serve different clientele but they have very similar goals which is to provide and opportunities for employers to site and uh set up carrier Milwaukee.

Yeah and sort of along those lines um just a little bit more I guess as you go along JCD and you see sort of the use types there you're seeing my contractor lay down yards with outdoor storage.

It's a little bit more of a um maybe say scrappy kind of use uh characteristic than you'd see in the BI zone um which is again distinct sort of from the NMIA for all the reasons Matthew mentioned and additionally for the transit line that's right there and the proximity to downtown um and so for those reasons there's different you know design standards site design standards and things things like that there.

Yeah okay that's the whole good question.

Councilor Cosarani and I have talked about this a little bit but if the GI zone is more of an office park I I heard I'll admit I I understand commercial zoning far less than a residential zone but counselor Lewis once said that like you don't want to co-locate housing and retail services with industrial uses because it's the trip generated is really hard.

Office park uses seem slightly different.

Am I wrong there?

Like what is the difference?

Why would you not want to co-locate residential uses with an office use?

I think in this specific situation um like related to the BI zone um what we're seeing is that all of the land is developed essentially and that there's a very sort of competitive vacancy rate in the sort of one to two percent over a 10 year period um and allowing a housing use which I think is kind of maybe where you're going those uses command higher rents and that sort of functionally makes the land potentially more valuable.

And so the idea is that we want we have a very sort of healthy industrial environment right now it's providing a lot of employment and the purpose of the zones like we said are sort of we're currently not proposing to change them but it's sort of geared at that employment intensive use type and so if you were to allow housing um in those zones uh I think the concern would be that that would sort of outcompete and potentially harm those industrial uses um I think in the Mudza for example which has sort of those different characteristics with the proximity to transit there are some housing um sort of allowances worked in there um but yeah I'm not sure if that's helpful that that helps I mean I think about it we talked about farmland as an example of this farmland is a relatively low land value but you still want to have farmland too to preserve that industry so you don't allow for an immunity for a reason so you can't allow that company interest that's helpful for me yeah well and I would say like um you know Robert uh counselor massey and I went and met with um you know a few of the businesses in the BI zone last year and uh met with um well like two years two and a half years ago now maybe with Parker Meggett and um they run shifts you know I mean I think even though a lot of the activities sort of office they use it's not all I think some places are running you know very early shifts or very late shifts and so you know how compatible is that with residential uh residential use as well I think is another factor um we heard a lot about that when we did the NMIA plan because we had someone who wanted to build the residential in the middle of the NMIA and um heard a lot about what a lot of advice about how bad an idea that was for the future of the of the business of it as a business district yeah I think I think one final consideration it is and this also came up in our feedback we didn't include it because it wasn't really germane but it's it's tremendous um uh the users of that zone zone or even just driving down international way um uh that uh facility of international way was not really set up for a lot of like uh like multimodal users so you know if you're gonna cite your industrial uh with uh residential or allow some of the more commercial and uh residential uses to co mingle you're you're gonna want really solid um bicycle and pedestrian facilities but it's you know a very narrow two lane road with a lot of truck traffic kind of running down there

Um uh that uh facility of international way was not really set up for a lot of like uh like multimodal users.

So you know, if you're gonna cite your industrial uh with uh residential or allow some of the more commercial and uh residential uses to co-mingle, you're you're gonna want really solid um bicycle and pedestrian facilities, but it's you know a very narrow two-lane road with a lot of truck traffic kind of running down there.

Um it would take a lot of like uh additional investment to get international way like kind of caught up uh to where it would uh be able to service um uh the the additional demand that uh putting like residential um in the zone.

So there's like a few different uh reasons, um, all of which I think are have have like some amount of merit.

Sure.

I have a couple questions maybe.

That's all right.

Come to the table.

I was gonna I was just hanging out here because I was letting men go like chill.

Oh but moving that would be better for folks.

Um I just had a couple questions.

It might be better for the microphones.

I don't know.

Is it okay if your counselor stays there?

It's fine.

Wherever you want to go.

Um the microphones are not picking up very much for those that are on the way.

Yeah, that's uh anyway.

Hi, how's it going?

Okay, go back to I had a question about the creative use, the allowed in the M zone.

Um, where is that use in our code now?

Where does that of now?

Yeah, the the enemy has creative use.

So we uh we copied that uh uh definition uh from the the NI standards that we're adopted in 2018.

Okay.

And then I know that there are a lot of um like in terms of clustering creative uses.

I'm wondering if that could in the future accommodate a larger makerspace sort of use.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean the part of the so makerspace kind of fits uh depending on what we're making would either fit as creative space or manufacturing and production.

So maybe we makerspace was actually explicitly something that we talked about as something we would want to encourage.

Because it makes me think a little bit about the evolution of ADX in Portland, the makerspeak in Southeast, and that like through COVID, they've now built out more um individual suites and offices for folks.

Would that be in conflict with the use in the in the end zone?

Oh I don't think so.

Yeah, I I mean uh there were um we we've had this initial conversation too about administering our uh zoning districts.

Um right now, one of the sorry, with let me finish that thought.

Administering our zoning districts with multi-tenant spaces.

Currently, um the uh uh there's a a standard in the end zone that's being maintained from from existing that would say um you can have any mix of uses as long as you have 25% or more of manufacturing and production.

So if um you know if they divided it into 10 makerspaces, we would expect three of them to be at least manufacturing and production, and then you could have like um a creative space would be another one, uh, which I think you can also consider a manufacturing use or at least a production use because you're we're creating something.

The only I think real distinction there is whether you're uh like creating a product to sell um or it's like uh um yeah, more of a creative act uh jewelry making, um yarning uh those kind of things.

Got it.

Okay, that's really helpful.

Um and then I have a question about the BI zone.

Um so the first item that you had mentioned was removing recycling um activities.

And so I understand that in theory, but I'm also thinking about some of our conversations that we've had about a reuse mall.

And that might be one of the only places that we could cite something large like that.

So I'm wondering if that would preclude us from in the future putting something like a reuse mall into a business industrial zone.

Yeah, that's a good question.

I would I'm not 100% familiar with the reuse model, so I could maybe use some clarification there, but it's to be clear it is currently a lot of accessory use in the BI zone.

And so it would have to have uh another use associated with it that's like manufacturing and production.

Okay, um, that is sort of a primary use.

So retail could be a secondary use, maybe.

Can I pick up on I I wanted to talk about the recycling one?

So can we go on on that?

And then you can come back to whatever else you had.

Oh sure.

I guess this is this, it's the same.

I'm in the middle of the same question.

Oh, okay, go ahead.

So, but if you have other things that you want to add on to that question, this is a good place to do it because I'm still right in the middle of it.

Well, I guess I'm just like not at all convinced we want to um eliminate recycling uses as uh I think if you've got the design standards where loading is from the back and all of those things, why would we want to eliminate recycling use?

And I guess I'm curious as to what motivated that change.

And I will tell you, I hear all the time from people who think we should have put the bottle drop in the industrial area and not in a you know adjacent to a neighborhood.

So tell me what's motivating that.

Yeah, definitely.

Uh I and you are running in addition to the service orientation.

We also have a prohibition on outdoor storage in the BI zone, so that would be sort of another layer, sort of along your argument.

Um this was a point where staff went back and forth a little bit, but um what ultimately the use is sort of an outlier, right, in the zone.

Um, and um that was that was why it was sort of proposed to be removed.

Um, sort of inconsistent with the rest of the the use types allowed.

So I will say in the session before you, I don't know how much of that you heard, but we had uh, you know, we were talking about trash haulers, but um there's the recycling modernization act now, which is requiring uh businesses that produce things to have to deal with the recycling.

And somebody recently approached me about um there's some plan uh to um there's some potential plan in the works to create these mini recycling depots that are in storage containers or something.

Anyway, I mean um yeah, they were looking to place these um shipping containers that are little mini recycling depots in lots of places.

They're gonna have to have somewhere to bring those things and sort them and you know whatever they're gonna ultimately do with them.

I guess I just feel like the recycling modernization act is gonna change uh some of what's going on, and it's not all gonna be metro and big haulers.

There's probably going to be some mid-size uh recycling things, and I guess I you know, I I don't think that's necessarily a bad use.

If I could maybe then what we we can rethink the use of maybe we use development standards or performance standards to kind of help keep it tighter from a recycling standpoint, and it could probably accommodate exactly what you're talking about.

I think something that's a bit more inside and not you know a big metro model of something like that, and so we kind of figure out modern recycling kind of situation that way instead.

I think that's a good solution.

That kind of gets at what I was I was leaning into, which is I wonder if the um modernization act would give us the ability to kind of partition our interpretation of recycling um into things that would fit and maybe wouldn't fit, and perhaps then the design standards become clear.

So for example, um a transfer station is probably not the best use to put in a BI zone.

But maybe light gleam gleaming from you know, like from various transfer stations and then or allowing people to drop off some things that would need just light repair or something like that to operate as a reuse model that could actually be more in line with our shared values for that zone.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good suggestion.

And yeah, currently the definition, there is no definition, it just says recycling center.

So I think having car rails could be a good way to sort of accommodate what we're looking for while sort of eliminate possibility.

I think the recycling is a good uh indication of uh we missed I think the first half of uh what you guys were talking about, but recycling modernization looking into that and seeing what uh that what language is included in that um kind of what we put back to you guys.

Yeah, um, we also have a local superstar in this area, Liz Start, who's over at Circes and starts sustainability.

I think I don't know if you're watching you may you might get a link to this later.

I think like sitting down with her and brainstorming some of this could be really dynamic, and we could actually you know take what is a a challenge and see that as a future opportunity.

Um even one that increases um increases our ability to kind of layer in um economic development and entrepreneurials and I think that'd be cool.

Um Mayor, so did you have other questions about recycling?

Okay, all right.

Reclaiming my time.

Um so I had another question about um the spaces that have the largest square footage in terms of warehouses in our in our city are um increasingly appealing, I think, to uh sports use and some entertainment uses.

And I'm wondering how that kind of plays in.

I'll give you an example.

Um the Roe City rollers are outgrowing their space um down in the hangar.

And but they have space requirements that they need for um you know to like be able to move.

It would be amazing if we were home to the Rose City rollers.

So I'm wondering if there's something that we need to be aware of in putting these um either restrictions or enabling more uses or something like that that could allow us to kind of position for an opportunity like that in the future.

Yeah, certainly.

Currently, I guess I think the BI zone would probably be a better candidate for these kinds of uses since it has larger spaces.

Um and currently in the BI zone, um the uses that are in or outdoor recreation larger than 4,000 square feet um are allowed as a conditional use, and we're not proposing to change to that.

Um and so uh if there were city rollers for the listening, that would be pretty cool.

Um and uh what we would be looking at would be a conditional use uh process.

Okay, and so uh I guess all that to say it wouldn't be a non-starter necessarily, but there would be some process there, and I think um although it would be great to have, I think maintaining some level of process um would allow us to sort of be a little discerning in terms of what those uses are.

So you have to change your name to Dogwood City Rollers.

This is how I know that I think the right community comes out.

That's amazing.

Were you talking about recreation in general?

Like if somebody wanted to do a like a bunch of indoor pickleball courts.

Well, yeah, that could be a possibility, or like I've heard a lot recently about like developments down on Main Street.

People are actually saying, like, hey, why don't we have an indoor play area for young families to go to?

And so then like when you think about what those look like what the bones of those are, they are big spaces and buildings.

Yeah, and it would be really amazing to just plug and play, you know, into one of our industrial or business industrial kind of areas, like that would be that'd be amazing.

Yeah.

So I just I guess my questions are really, you know, there are some dynamic uses that might become useful in the future.

Yeah, and I want to make sure that we're not ruling those out looking forward.

Yeah, yeah, certainly.

Yeah, and we are not there's no sort of um other than a few that we called out.

We're not proposing to sort of further restrict any of the uses.

Awesome.

And it's good that we've established that we're all dogwood city rollers.

Yes, yeah, but that's important for the state.

Rob's probably already on.

I had a question on some of the feedback you got.

Well did did the individuals you asked, the businesses you asked, did they say why they wanted to limit retail space in certain areas?

Because I look at international way, for example.

And it's a pretty nice, well-maintained pretty well, more developed in some of our neighborhoods to walk in.

Right.

And and I think like I look at that every time I drive by and I see some of the saloons or the bars or some of the stuff there, I'm like, you know, this is especially with the manufacturing kind of tucked behind a lot of that.

I'm like, this is kind of a cool spot for when Council Amsterdam was talking about you know, making King Road more like division, right?

Or like a gaslight district where we would bring more people to obviously for those businesses that are there.

Like what what would be what was the pushback with that?

Because I see that as a potential you know, opportunity for for economic growth because it's also by a busy highway, it's pretty easy to get to because of thoroughfare that we're talking about a commercial more commercial district.

Yeah, like something that was, yeah, like a like in San Diego, they got the gaslight district, right, which is a gas lamp district, whatever you call it.

Um, and it's just like restaurants, bars, and things like that where you can right, and it's like it's gotta be you gotta have the infrastructure, so to speak, and it seems like it has more of than other areas, at least more than our neighborhood hubs, for example.

And what what would be the pushback?

What was the pushback to allowing more retail in spaces like that?

I think to be clear, we didn't necessarily float that like that change on that scale in terms of how we were discussing the project with businesses.

So I don't think that they were necessarily anticipating that.

But in general, what was the pushback on limiting the retail?

Yeah, I think what we were hearing is that um there is not a lot of space.

I mean, Dave's killer bread, for example, is one of the folks that we talked to, and and they have very limited parking, and um their employees struggled to get to the space um, you know, without taking a car.

They also do work overnight, and so um like Trivet isn't operating.

Um they've had unfortunately people you know, hit trying to get they're trying to cross the Harmony sort of Linwood um intersection.

But um, I think really it's what we were hearing is that there's not a lot of space um in these areas for uh really a lot of businesses, um, but I think sort of zooming out a little bit the broader like lens um allowing those commercial uses, um, they command higher rents.

And so if you know, our I think staff's perspective was kind of um coming from a place of understanding that we have a healthy industrial sort of community that we're looking to provide stability to.

Um, and we're not looking to it didn't seem like that we needed to sort of make changes to fill up the space, so um, I guess all that's saying we didn't quite get to that level of a scope.

Not sure if that's yeah, no, that's just industry jobs are not high wage jobs, right?

They're not typically family.

Right, right.

But but at the same time, you currently have businesses there that, like you mentioned, only get business maybe during the lunch hour, right?

So, how do we help sustain those businesses and and maybe opening up more opportunity to where it's not just an employee district and more so more like a economic district or you know, commerce district, whatever you want to call it, where there's more a little bit more activity that happens there because it's not it's it the you're not really you don't need to sustain the the industrial businesses because the manufacturing because they're not they're not selling to people, but some of those like Freeman Barrow House and some of those restaurants and they still gotta make do and without anything drawing anybody there.

I mean, they're only survived by those hours that they work that the employees support them.

Right, but we are just now getting to the point where our downtown is full, we still haven't filled buildings and as a facilitating filled Axel Tree.

Right.

Milwaukee marketplace still has lots of vacancies, creating more competition to draw from those existing uh hubs and you know, whatever other, you know, what we're trying to do on 32nd or whatever in terms of hubs.

I mean, that just dilutes that, right?

But I guess to a certain degree.

Well, you're right off of 224, so you're getting a lot more traffic.

You're not just serving Milwaukeeans, because that's a huge transit corridor.

So you're not necessarily pulling from downtown because it's in a different part of of the area, right?

You're on the other side, so you gotta cross 224 to get there.

But it in in order for this to happen, it took investment.

Because I I also worry, well, what's gonna happen?

How are we how do we sustain those businesses that are there now?

Well, I was pleasantly surprised by the way these guys started that the vacancy rate is so low.

Because I I see signs and it feels to me like there's lots of vacancies, but the vacancy rates are incredibly low.

Um they are being sustained, you know, and we are having some turnover.

Um, but I don't think adding converting it to a commercial district is a very important thing.

Well, I also'm not necessarily saying that it already allows for these like recent spaces to open right now.

Yeah, and so it's not like we would have to reinvent.

What you're describing, I think it's kind of already allowed, but to the mayor's point, the market isn't really bearing out those conversions happening right now.

Unless that yeah, I'm I'm not and uh again, I'm I'm just looking at like how do you how do you bring more foot traffic to an area that's manufacturing when you have businesses there too, right?

Because you have to do something like Freeman's Barrow House, we were just talking about it.

If they're not getting business outside the employees that work there, hard.

I mean, just because downtown's flourishing doesn't mean other parts shouldn't or can't.

And we and the and the main reason a lot of this is moving is because we invested in that.

It's not like it's happening organically, really.

We've given out so much money in terms of business development loans, which are happening, right?

But we're not giving them out on not there, right?

Not there.

I'm saying here, right?

And then market Milwaukee marketplace, you know, once new season got in, that was a draw for other businesses to show up too.

So a lot of it is is from promotion of the city and also the investment that the city's been doing.

But I don't want to forget about those businesses who are only sustained during lunchtime.

Because they still need to well, I mean, that's why I definitely recommend it more anything.

Yeah.

But I don't, I guess to be the answer is not adding more competition for them.

Well, it doesn't have to be it doesn't necessarily be company.

I mean, retail is retail.

Like I'm not saying open a bar across the street from Freeman's barrel house.

That's not gonna help.

But something that's gonna draw people like Council Stavanger just talked about the real city rollers.

What competition are they gonna be for restaurants?

So something like that that would bring people to that area that would make people want to go there because right now nobody wants to go there because there's them they're just you know it it's manufacturing.

You go there to work.

So that's what I'm saying.

I guess more like what could be a draw that would bring to that locale that could help those businesses survive outside of lunch.

Well, I feel like this is a bigger conversation than maybe.

Yeah, it's just something to think about.

Yeah, of our ED goals.

Um talking to somebody maybe an expert to talk about right sizing zones and and where you create because I think this also has come up with hubs.

It might be good to have some money for that business to come and talk to us.

Um like we're inflating these guys' kind of limited project into a much bigger and just looking at the time.

We are five over.

So do you staff feel like you got direction on the questions that you needed?

Yeah, I think that we we have what we need.

Yeah, yeah.

I feel like we cut counselor savage order off.

Did you guys have a lot of things?

Oh no, I've got all my questions.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, thank you.

Hey, I just want to say that I I'm really glad that we're doing this because you know, uh we've been reading in housing for the last five or six years, and I've all often thought that you know businesses and especially the more industrialized business uh uh businesses kind of were uh maybe a bit of an actor thought and that kind of thing.

So I I'm I really appreciative of this bringing this up.

Not that you know how's it still important, but we want to yeah, the businesses some some uh some TLC as well.

Well, and to that end, I wanted to say we had talked in our ED goal about trying to convene some business roundtables in some of these neighbors, some of these areas, and it sounds like you guys have already been talking to some businesses, I don't know how many, but maybe this coaching package is a thing around this being a business round table.

So that might be a conversation to have with Joseph and Sierra, but um I just want to put that idea out there.

Do you mean in addition to the hearings that would be um yeah, before hearing before we thank the hearings before we got to a final package?

Yeah.

I mean, I yeah.

I wouldn't think Joseph and Sarah about maybe having something in advance of the code package.

Yeah, that we're kind of talking about it all summer.

Yeah.

Um Will and Matthew, nice job.

Very good for a session half as scary.

Wait a second.

Yes, we are in turn.

Then it's great.

That's the point.