Welcome to the regular meeting of the audit committee for October 20th, 2025.

I am Elliot Payne and I am the chair of this committee.

I want to offer a friendly reminder to all members, staff, and the public that these meetings are broadcast live to enable greater public participation.

These broadcasts include real-time captioning as a further method to increase the accessibility of our proceedings to the community.

Therefore, all speakers need to be mindful of the rate of their speech so that our captioners can fully capture and transcribe all comments for the broadcast.

We ask all speakers to moderate the speed and clarity of their comments.

At this time, I will ask the clerk to call the role so that we can verify a quorum.

Abene.

Here Chucktai.

Present.

How's been present?

Omar.

Present.

Williams.

Present.

Vice Chair Singleton.

Present.

Chair Payne.

Present.

There are seven members present.

Let the record reflect that we have a quorum.

Colleagues, our agenda is before us.

May have a motion to adopt the agenda.

So moved.

Second.

All those in favor say aye.

Aye.

Opposed say nay.

Ayes have it.

The next next we have the acceptance of minutes from our August 18th, 2025 meeting.

May I have that motion, please?

So moved.

Second.

All those in favor say aye.

Aye.

Those opposed say nay.

That carries in the June 2nd minutes are accepted.

And before we begin, I would like to note notice the changes in membership on the committee.

Due to Becca Thompson's resignation from the park board, she also leaves a vacancy on this committee.

The park board has filled that vacancy with Commissioner Kathy Abene.

She comes back to us after serving with us from 2022 to 2024.

So we are pleased to welcome her back.

Welcome back.

Thank you very much.

We have five items in new business today.

We'll begin with item three, which is an update report from the police department on actions related to recommendations from the 2024 MPD fleet management audit.

But my understanding is that they are not here this morning.

So I will recognize City Auditor Timmer Timmerman.

Thank you, Council President.

In the auditor update that we'll go through here in a little bit, we'll discuss the efforts that the Office of City Auditor has made over the last two to three months to get them to participate and come before this body.

And then if we could move we'll skip the second MPD item because they have not provided updates.

And then if we could move into the city auditor updates, then I can talk a little bit about the efforts that our office has made to get them to appear before this body.

Okay, so just to confirm, we are going to get this update on item number three and then skip item number four.

That's correct.

And then if we can move the auditor updates to replace item number four.

Okay, I can do without objection.

Let's go ahead and do that.

Um so I will recognize Mr.

Ken.

Thank you.

All right.

Good morning, Chair Payne, members of the audit committee, as kind of Robert kind of alluded to.

Um bit about off-duty update.

The kind of goal of this one is hopefully to kind of have MPD management here to kind of talk more about their efforts and kind of the current things as we were going to kind of talk about more of the audit and kind of I know there's been questions about you know what the audit was and kind of do issues and kind of find an update on those and then kind of transition to MPD.

Um at this point, I'll just kind of stick to some brief kind of recap of the audit and kind of some of the context sensed and kind of hopefully at a future audit committee we'll be able to have um MPD kind of speak to some more of that current efforts and kind of the current future plans that um we've been discussing with them regarding off-duty.

So yep, the agenda, you know, again kind of off-duty and then follow up.

Um so the objective, just a quick recap of the objective was to review police off-duty work policies, procedures, and processes to ensure internal controls are in place and operating effectively to adequately manage public safety risk and inform officer health and wellness.

So those that officer health and wellness and kind of hours work to this one.

This was published back in September 2019.

The scope again kind of related to those items.

We did were able to look at a limited amount of data from 2018 through the scope through the audit time period in 2019.

And we looked at governance processes, internal controls.

We also did some benchmarking and data analysis that were included in the report in terms of what the data that we were able to achieve and kind of what other organizations were doing with off-duty work.

Just kind of some brief notes.

I'm not going to go through all this stuff, but kind of a recap a little bit of what off-duty and some of that is.

So MPD has a decentralized model.

Basically, we require approval of secondary employees to ensure our police officers are working at approved sites.

But otherwise, that MP does not manage off-duty work.

Businesses and organizations typically reach out to officers or reach out to their precinct where you know they can be requests can be directed to the appropriate person to kind of in terms of potentially having an off-duty officer work at a location.

Eligible officers are free to accept off-duty work and handle their own coordination of the work with secondary employees, including scheduling on payment.

A lot of times there's often a dedicated scheduler who kind of handles all that for the site or the business, and then officers are kind of scheduled through the off that officer.

Pay is determined through a variety of market factors, different, you know, location type location worked.

I think there's been a lot of significant changes just kind of at some of that too since 2019, considering the events that have happened.

The report we kind of contained four observations and kind of a bit more context and kind of why they're open, which is I'll kind of get to in a second.

But first one related to technology enhancements.

So we noted there's difficulty.

Second one was policy requirements, third was kind of off-duty and oversay monitoring, and then four was um squad cars and controls around those.

So the first one, so we noted manual inefficient systems, um, scheduling systems did not you know can support can be tracking of shifts and approvals.

Um there's user access management limitations, a lack of overall system integration and functionality.

Um, you know, and also that impacted the ability for management to do off-duty work.

We noticed there's a lot of paper forms, disparate systems.

Um the data we were able to review, also limitation caveats.

If you kind of look back in the report, we were able to provide some data, but um that took some um you know efforts to kind of get, and then there's limitations regarding, you know, um, as officers required self-reporting hours, there wasn't that um oversight in terms or lack of oversight monitoring in terms of issue three that kind of also hindered operations.

Um issue two is policy and procedures.

So we hadn't have had a list of items in their related policies and procedures around strengthening, um, including around hours of work, the notification, um, oversight monitoring rules and responsibilities, um, strengthening of requirements around approval for off-duty work and scheduling supervisors, um, a lack of a standard operating procedures, there's cash payments, um, a lack of a uh review and approval of our secondary improvers on a regular basis.

Um issue three, oversight monitoring.

So um oversight monitoring for off-duty work policy compliance is not performed, approvals are not updated, then off not all of all not all officers working for a secondary approval are approved to work for that approval.

We noted.

Um so we had recommendations around rules and responsibilities, establishing measures to monitor improving data and systems, and the ability to track, review, analyze, and establish accountability.

Um issue four was marked squad car usage, which kind of ties a little bit into the MP Management audit.

Um this one was we noted that marked squad car usage was not consistently approved or tracked.

Um at the time, there was a paper system of signing out cars.

Um we noted back in the MPD management audit in spring of 2024.

That was finally updated to a smart sheet approval system.

Um we noted also some other items regarding cars taken from the squad car garage, and then the kind of that GPS tracking capabilities, which also ties into that MPD feat management um audit that we recently discussed.

Um so from that audit, you know, we had these issues.

Um the audit 2020 due dates, um, in early February 2020, city leadership announced creation of a task force to review and develop recommendations on the management of off-duty work.

Um that included um kind of looking back was the MPD, mayor, city council, and police federation.

Um, from what we can tell, and kind of what we were updated, the work group met a few times, but then with the events of spring 2020, uh that was delayed and kind of ultimately stopped.

Um and then also, you know, through our audit issue follow up, we know that management response recommendations trained positions.

There's significant changes in the operating environment since then.

And then also, you know, with the 2020 MDHR investigation, then also the DOJ, there was questions within MPD of what changes might be required, what you know what make those be, how they would impact off-duty.

There was some mention of the consent decree regarding kind of overlapping a little bit with kind of some of the items we identified in the in the audit regarding approvals, the scheduling of a drug supervisor or somewhat of a higher rank regarding the approval approval for squad cars for working off-duty.

There's also a limitation always worked in the consent degree hours.

And then also there's a requirement that MPD will maintain the system so that on uh on duty MPD patrol supervisors are aware of each second doing approving position within that location and the identity of each employee working that location.

And then also there's some data requirements in that as well.

Um we also know that there's been recent follow-up items from the council off-duty work.

Um, and then in April, there's also a small change to MPD's policy procedure around of standby employees, and from what we discussed with management, from what we can tell, more changes and updates are anticipated.

Um kind of with that, you know, we also know that in spring of 2024, MPD created an inspections unit that we've talked about before began assigning that unit oversight or oversight responsibilities for off-duty work um in order that you know there's some forms that they've created, there's some requirements.

There's um requirement now around supervisors, um, having to check in and off-duty sites and kind of take note of those and also around um tracking of the off uh squad cars.

Um and we've been a regular kind of contact as this units been kind of developed on their capabilities or resources, kind of the progress and plans.

And that was kind of the goal today, was kind of discuss more about those.

Um, you know, just something for note that we kind of identified this for several years now, you know, kind of you know, risk assessments, um, the kind of lead to off-duty work and kind of um the need to kind of follow through on these updates and kind of make those changes, um, some of the limitations kind of um, you know, we relate back to the MPD scheduling system and kind of some of those out of longer term issues that we've been trying our best to inform and update with.

Um, and we'll continue to follow up with management on those updates, and do hope to kind of have them come and kind of talk more about the plants and kind of some of that work in the future.

Thank you.

Thank you for that presentation.

Are there any questions from members?

Uh I'll just say uh I really appreciate the depth of this work and the timeline uh just for the members of this committee's awareness.

Uh city council passed uh ordinance to provide for charging fees for our off-duty work.

So uh one of the highlighted issue issues was well, two of I think this touches on two of the highlighted issues.

One was data tracking, and two was uh fleet management.

Uh our fee is aiming to uh reflect the costs associated with using a city-owned vehicle.

Uh, and by having that fee, that should also be able to provide for uh sustainable funding source for stronger data tracking.

So this is a reflection of how the work of this body can help lead to legislative and operational changes.

And I think that one of the things that myself and uh Mr.

Timmerman have had a lot of conversation about is how do we actually operationalize these recommendations, especially as they relate to the role of city council.

The role of management is much clearer, but I think there's also opportunities for us to make recommendations to the city council.

So we really want to think through how we move that through our process.

Um seeing no one else wishing to speak, I will recognize Mr.

Timmerman to give us an auditor update, which is item number eight on our posted agenda.

Uh thank you, Chair Payne and audit committee members.

I appreciate your flexibility in the agenda.

Um needing to move things around here with our normal city auditor update.

We will go through um the items we typically go through, and then I have a few slides at the end that will focus a little bit on uh cooperation with the Office of City Auditors so we can address um, I'm sure some shared concerns about um lack of attendance from folks that we're looking for updates from.

All right, so first of all, we will cover the uh in-progress audit work.

We're not reporting out any uh completed audits at this time.

We should have one ready in December for you.

Um the work in progress is neighborhood safety contract management, which is uh an audit that is looking at uh a sampling of contracts from NSD uh as well as processes related to their contracting.

Um we also are working on the MPRB revenue and collection audit.

This is phase two of revenue and collections.

We did one for the city, and now we're doing one for the parks board.

Um this one uh is well underway with uh significant field work now completed.

Um we are working on the required body worn camera and automated license plate reader audit.

Um these audits we do every couple years, they're required by the state.

Uh and with these, we typically get uh fairly good cooperation, especially from uh the parks board when we completed theirs most recently.

Um we also are continuing our work on the two after action reviews uh that will um hopefully conclude in February.

We are working with Hogan Adams, our contracted law firm to meet that uh future uh scheduled audit committee date in February.

Um there has been delay in this work, and we are seeking some additional funding, which the office's budget can manage.

Um we just need to go through the proper processes to request uh use of that funding.

Uh so a little bit more on those audits in progress.

The objective of the NSD uh audit is to look at processes, including the administration, management, reporting, oversight, and monitoring of their controls uh to ensure that their contracting processes are uh effective.

Um this one is also in a fieldwork static status.

Uh the scope has been updated to cover 2025 up to date uh to more accurately assess current practices.

Uh as I mentioned, MPRB's collections, revenue and collections audit.

This is to review the design and effectiveness of controls around the MPRB revenue and collection processes.

We visited a number of sites, golf courses, um parks.

We tried to get to uh a lot of locations that accept cash so we can understand what that process looks like as well.

So, as you can imagine, there's a lot of folks and places to go to to effectively uh provide coverage on this audit.

Body worn camera and automated license plate readers to test MPD's compliance with state law regarding body worn cameras and license plate readers.

Uh, as I mentioned, these are audits we have done uh year over year, I believe every two years.

And then the after-action reviews uh, as you're well aware, um it's to conduct an after-action review of the case involving the shooting of Davis Matury and the death of Alison Lucher.

All right, so I will quickly uh just cover the numbers on fraud waste and abuse.

Um we've got two open investigations, both are in progress.

Typically, we just provide a status update on these because these are highly sensitive and often um end up going to labor relations or the city attorney's office, and so we try to just provide a status update on the volume of these until there's any uh final resolution.

And then as far as prior audit issue follow-up, we heard uh a little bit from Mr.

Cam this morning.

Um, but we've uh also got a few more slides that uh director Pudyal will cover.

He'll talk a little bit about audit issue statistics, details of closed issues, and then open audit issues that uh we are still following up on.

So I will hand it over to Director Pudio.

Thank you.

Good morning, Chair Payne and member of the audit committee.

Um I'd like to provide some update regarding some of these open issues and where we're at, and also provide a little bit more details.

Regarding some of these issues and the status of those um open issues as well.

So um basically uh for all of uh all the open issues we have, uh audit issues that's considered open.

So basically that means uh so with any uh audit issues we have the tentative completion date.

So this basically means so that entity completion date has not come yet.

So it's still in the open status.

So every time some of these issues go beyond that um deep timeline, uh they fall under overdue audit issues.

So right now we have uh 24 of them, and the last one is the audit issues, validation in progress.

Uh there are seven issues we see, which is basically mean uh we uh audit receive some of those uh uh completed action plan, and we are in progress of reviewing those to make sure those are complete complete.

So uh so since the last audit uh committee meeting, we completed uh three issues that has been closed as well.

So the first uh audit issue that was closed uh since last audit committee is the first one is the issue number 12 for the training uh related to 2022 hiring and promotion process audit.

So right now we have two more additional uh audit issues remaining from this report, and the goal is to uh complete those uh at least one, hopefully by next audit committee meeting, and the last remaining after that would be sometime first or second quarter of 2026.

Uh the next uh audit issues closed is related to the 2023 PCA audit spending audit.

Um, and that's the issue number four uh authorization approval and eligibility, and um so there is only one audit issues remain from this report, and this one is more, the one remaining is more not for the procurement, but uh they have to work with the controller's office, so it's more on them completing this audit issue.

And the one the last audit issue closed uh is uh regarding the 2024 MPD fleet management audit.

So that's the issue number four driver license program.

So basically, uh as a part of the issue, uh they had to come up with a comprehensive list of all the eligible drivers and basically uh documented uh verification of those uh driver eligibility as well, and it's 100% complete.

So we close this issue for the street management audit.

Before I move to the next slide, any questions up now?

Okay.

So these are all the list of all the audit report that has one or more open audit issues.

And so basically, these are the detailed list of all the audit and the issue number, and that what are some of these uh issues are and how they were rated, as well as where they fall, whether it's overdue, open or validation in progress.

So we have listed all the those of 35 open issues right now.

So now diving a little bit deeper to some of those open issues as well.

So the first one is related to 2019 MPD off-duty uh work audit.

Uh so uh community safety auditor comm just presented about these issues as well.

So right now there are three open issues related to uh technology enhancement, policy requirements, and oversight and monitoring.

So the next one is related to the 2021 uh personal work issued, uh mobile device policies and controls.

So right now we have three open issues regarding this uh audit related to mobile device inventory management, mobile device disposal and data governance.

And we recently closed uh an audit issue related to policy and procedures because a lot of these things uh are based on uh finalizing those and issuing those policy and procedures.

So uh we'll provide some more updates in near future regarding some of these open issues as well.

And um, so the two um open issues related to 2022 hiring and promotion process audit is the job studies and class maintenance studies issue for which uh when we discussed with the management, they mentioned there's uh starting a new process in the quarter one of 2026.

So basically, our goal is to uh see how that process works and maybe validate some of those um processes as well and decide whether it's time to close this issue in future or not, and then related to the issue number 16 related to appeals grievance and other concerns.

And then related to the issue number 16, related to appeals grievance and other concerns.

Uh we are working with the management to uh uh obtain some of these um supporting documents, which some has already been completed, some are in progress.

So hopefully uh by next audit committee in December, we should be able to close this one issue up.

So the related to 2023 revenue and collection phase one.

We still have five open issues uh related to policy and procedures, oversight and monitoring, internal controls, asset safeguarding and security, and mail handling.

So basically we have been in touch with the management.

Uh recently they completed the annual financial audit um as well, but some of their work has to be prioritized regarding what are some of the findings related to that audit.

So they're prioritizing on those fixing those issues first.

Um, but we'll work with management to remediate some of these issues as well.

And the two open issues, so these are non-public issues, which can be discussed out in public, so that's why we listed as issue one and two.

Uh so this one is related to 2023 sexual assault examination kit special project follow-up audit.

Uh, then management did provide an update during the June 2 audit committee as well, but this still is open for now.

So um we have seven open issues um, including the non-public issues, issue one and two uh for the 2023 MPD property and evidence audit.

Uh similar to the previous audit as well.

The management did provide an update on June 2nd audit committee meeting, and we'll continuously work with management to resolve some of these issues as well.

Uh so this one is the last uh so for the 2023 PCART spending audit, uh we have one issue for the oversight and monitoring, and um so this is the last one, and again, because originally the responsible party for this one was the deputy, and that position is vacant right now.

Um so we'll be working actively with management to resolve this issue as well.

And moving on to the next uh open issues related to the 2024 MPD fleet management audit.

So for this one originally we had 10 uh issues out of which one has been closed, so we still have nine open issues, and out of nine, from my understanding, so there are two issues which are considered open, and all the others are overdue.

And um, so for the 2024 NCR city funding to neighborhood organization audit, we have three open issues related to policy and procedures, oversight and monitoring, and NCR risk assessment.

And for them, the first one uh policy and procedures is overdue, but the the issue number three and four uh they're still considered open.

So management is working on resolving these issues as well.

And uh any questions member has been thank you, Chair Payne.

Just I know um Dr.

Timmerman, you mentioned that you will have additional comments about the work being done to uh get responses from specifically MPD.

Um is this the time to kind of talk through that or um I guess I'm just trying to figure out the best time to put that into the agenda.

Sure.

Um maybe at this time I'd like to invert uh invite uh auditor who go through that his slides and provide and talk about those things as well.

Thank you.

Um and then just an agenda clarification.

So number three on the new business was the fleet management audit.

We are not reviewing that today.

Okay, so that has been removed.

We moved to item four and then went to item eight.

Okay.

Just want to acknowledge that we are not going over the fleet management audit.

Okay.

And thank you.

That's just want to make sure we prioritize that.

All right.

Thank you.

Uh all right, Chair Payne and audit committee members.

Um, to answer that question in about seven slides, we'll we'll get to that.

And once I get through those, uh, we will definitely have time for questions.

Um, but first, I would would like to talk a little bit about personnel and budget for the office.

Um, we've been um working hard on our plan and uh vision for right sizing the office.

Uh we've recently hired Mary Ann Sykes, who is uh with us today.

She is our new administrative assistant, and uh we are thrilled to have her.

Uh she started on September 24th and is getting up to speed uh quite quickly.

Uh we have hired uh Eric Wynne, who is going to be an internal auditor, uh, hopefully in the uh advisory services, special review and advisory services division that we're attempting to create.

He is in onboarding right now, and he brings with him significant experience in private sector and government audit, uh, most recently from the office of the legislative auditor.

The second auditor to that uh we are working to hire will start November 17th.

I'll share more about that individual when the time is right.

Uh, and then the quality assurance and training manager position uh that has now completed its travels through the classification process, and it should be posting here within the next couple days.

This position is vital uh to provide some of our own internal oversight of our work that is required by our professional standards.

Those four hires uh or positions were related to the funding that the city council provided the Office of City Auditor this past summer.

We have two other transitions.

Uh one of our auditors recently uh resigned Nico Popowicz, he was um great at some of the uh reviews for training needs and process and procedural needs, and so I want to thank him for his service.

And then Kamlin Alid, who's here today.

I want to thank him for his many years of service.

Um, he is going to be um leaving city service as well here pretty soon.

So thank you, Kamlin.

All right, as far as budget updates go, uh last Thursday I presented um the mayor's budget uh proposal to the budget committee.

Um I demonstrated or discussed some conflicts between that budget proposal and the needs of the office uh to meet the demands uh of the public as well as folks internally within the city to provide adequate oversight.

Um as far as budget goes related to the Lucia and the maturity reviews, we're uh contracting with a law firm, as I mentioned earlier, uh, and we are needing an increase in allocated budget and time on that.

I'm hoping the time portion of that won't be needed.

As I mentioned, we're uh still intending to release a report in February.

Um, but because of some of the delays we've experienced, and quite frankly, the overall volume of uh body worn camera and evidence that we're reviewing, uh, there is an increase in budget needed here.

Uh so that request will go in front of the uh admin and enterprise oversight committee later this month.

Uh I do want to talk quickly about the workforce optimization and comparative benchmarking study.

This is an item on our agenda today to add to our audit plan.

Uh we have invested or made the determination to invest some remaining budget related to the FTE transfers that the council provided to our office this summer.

Uh this study will look at uh comparable cities and uh from a department by department uh basis determine are we where we should be.

Uh ultimately uh rather than just being a study showing okay, here's where Seattle is and here's where um Portland is.

Uh we will provide some recommendations that the council, the audit committee, and others can use in decision making going forward.

Uh as a part of the budget update, I provided this slide, and I'll share a little bit about the uh information that I did uh share with the budget committee.

Um but the mayor's proposed budget affects our office.

Uh and uh first and foremost, it confirmed the transfer of 10 FTEs from the Office of City Auditor to the Office of City Clerk.

This was par and OE.

Uh, you're very familiar with this transition because their work was deemed uh incompatible with the work of the office due to the irreversible threats to independence.

Um the mayor's budget confirmed the council's transfer of two FTEs, um, but it also reduced staffing level of two FTEs, which are the ones that are circled in red.

Um without these positions, our ability to provide timely, meaningful, and accurate information back to this committee as well as the city council is significantly limited.

Uh this is probably the first time you've seen the vision on paper for the office of city auditor.

Um the right side, it is the structure that we are attempting to build, and that is including uh a new division with special reviews and advisory services.

Um we would maintain the internal audit and assurance services division, and with an investment of the final phase, the final three positions that I'm seeking to write size the office, uh, that would add a deputy city auditor, a director of special reviews and advisory services, as well as a lead worker for that new division.

Um my goal here is to protect the two jobs that are on the line and also to uh finalize the investment in our office so we can round out this new division.

Uh we did for the budget presentation take a look at what other cities are doing with their complement, uh their audit staff complement.

Uh if you notice on this slide, two of the cities that Minneapolis often compares itself to on the left side, Baltimore and New Orleans, uh, they have about twice as many auditors per resident.

Uh, and the unique thing about those two cities is they are both under consent decrees, like uh Minneapolis is.

Uh the column for Minneapolis that represents our staffing level under the budget, uh, the mayor's proposed budget.

So that is the 10 numbers there, or the 10 number there, and we're looking to increase that to 15 as we talked about.

All right.

I'd like to quickly uh highlight for you and members of the public the updated mission for the Office of City Auditor.

Uh this is included in the uh draft charter that we'll be discussing later in this meeting.

Um the mission is that the Office of City Auditors strengthens public trust in city government by delivering independent, objective, and risk-informed oversight, assurance, and advisory services.

We safeguard public resources by identifying risks, promoting accountability, ensuring compliance, and supporting effective and transparent city operations.

You'll see similar elements in this mission uh if you compare it to our previous mission, such as our goals to identify risk and promote accountability.

However, I felt it important to include language to highlight our lens on strengthening public trust.

We've not yet rewritten the vision statement for the office as we plan to do that as a part of our 2026 audit plan and our future business planning.

As a part of the budget presentation that I presented last week, we also developed new values.

We want to communicate these uh across the city internally, but we also want to communicate these to the public.

So these values along with the updated mission will live on our website, they will live on our city talk site, and we're going to start um using them either in our entrance meetings for audits or FAQ documents that we provide to auditees because we want to make it very clear the values that we bring into our work.

Um I'm not going to read through them, but they are here on the screen, and as I mentioned, soon they will be on our website as well.

All right.

Now I would like to talk a little bit about our current uh relationship and cooperation from the Minneapolis Police Department.

Um as we've seen this morning, uh MPD has not attended to provide updates on past audit findings.

Uh this is the second audit committee meeting in a row where we have made uh significant efforts to have them attend and provide updates on August 18th.

We thought they were attending and they did not show up.

Today, about an hour before the meeting, we got a message that they were not attending.

They had not gone into the slide deck that we had provided to provide updates.

And the frustration here is our community safety auditors reached out to them more than a dozen times, either through emails, meeting invitations, actual meetings, IMs.

And so there has been significant effort and time spent on this to no avail.

I wasn't going to do this, but I feel it necessary.

An enhance our response strategies.

It directly, I can't see that word.

Supports our top priority, ensuring the safety and well-being of the people of Minneapolis.

That is a weekly meeting.

And we through those dozen emails, IMs, meetings, talked to over a half a dozen different individuals.

And so it is incredibly frustrating that we are not getting participation from MPD.

Moving on to a discussion about requests for support that we've had at the highest levels within the police department.

This is more related to the after action review.

But I do want to share that we have spoken with deputy chiefs, assistant chiefs, commanders.

We have spoken with well over a dozen senior leaders within the police department to explain the work of the Office of City Auditor, to explain the requirements of them and their staff to cooperate with document requests, requests for systems access, requests for sitting down to interview.

This is just to highlight a few dates where we've met with the chief, uh assistant commissioner or sorry, assistant chiefs, um notification information related to uh when we'll be reaching out to individual officers, what the purpose of that outreach is.

Um, and I do want to thank him.

He provided a statement last week supporting audit, supporting audits work, and also clearly articulating that staff uh under his authority will cooperate with the Office of City Auditor.

We're having another meeting on the 29th with the chief to have that same conversation.

So last week there was some communication that I provided to the budget committee that talked about some of the delays we've uh experienced from MPD.

I made a comment that individual officers were not responsive or that they were not cooperating.

Um we discussed the uh the police federation and their involvement in some of these delays.

Um I don't talk directly to the media typically.

Uh I have committed to speaking with them to correct record if necessary.

And I will occasionally work through the city communications folks to answer questions if they are not related to the inner workings of an audit because a lot of sensitive information must be protected until the conclusion of the audit.

Um, but there was a statement released by the Federation last week that um unequivocally denied any delay or insertion within our work.

This is an example of one individual that we've been trying to work with.

On 8 18, we first requested to speak with this investigator.

The following day we received a positive response.

They were open to scheduling.

Within less than a week, it was clear that this person was starting to get coached on how to respond to our office.

On the 3rd of September, we were asked if discipline could come from the interview on the fourth per my federation attorney.

Could I be subject to discipline if you believe that my answer that I provide is incomplete or untruthful?

This question itself was incredibly concerning to me.

An officer asking if I can be untruthful with the Office of City Auditor.

Again, this is coaching coming from the Federation.

And on the 15th, the Federation sent me a letter.

The Federation, the attorney that they contract with, sent me a letter that not only questioned the authority of the Office of City Auditor, but disregarded it, diminished it, minimized it, and through the city attorney's office, we sent a follow-up response to them that further explained charter requirements.

It further explained that the questions that we are asking of officers are process and procedural related.

So that letter back to the Federation reiterated some of those things that had previously been said.

After we sent that reply, we never heard back.

And so last week or maybe the week before we started reaching out to individuals again to schedule meetings.

So I wanted to provide this example because this is one of many individuals that we've had delay with on the Lucher and the Maturi reviews.

And with each of them I've really learned to appreciate the experience that they bring to the office.

Alright, so that is the auditor update.

And I know it's not fun to get turned down.

And I know from personal professional experience as well, this is never someone's favorite phone call to get, but just really appreciate the dedication.

And Dr.

Timmerman, I'm just or uh really appreciate your slides and your dedication to the budget committee and to the follow-up and the charter um updates.

So I'll leave it.

I have a lot of feelings, but we'll leave it at that.

Thank you.

Uh Vice President Chuck Tye.

Yeah, thank you.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Um auditor Timmerman.

Um Auditor Timmerman, uh I'd echo um the comments that you know want to be grateful for for the work that you and your department do every day and the integrity with which you carry out uh your work.

Um I would imagine that it is um really thankless work and um and and I I really see the commitment in particular to um to making sure that that we get really thorough, really excellent um audits coming out of this department.

So thank you all for your work.

I'm sorry that you deal with what you deal with.

Now I, you know, I I feel like I uh understood a little bit of the concerns with as with regard to um maybe resistance is the right word here.

Resistance to cooperation in in or um compliance with the city charter and the audit charter um by the Minneapolis Police Department as you were carrying out some of these after action reviews.

I um really appreciate you detailing that in this presentation today.

I am alarmed.

I am alarmed by what I what I hear and what I see right now.

Um so I'm hoping perhaps that this committee, um if members are interested, would would engage in a conversation here that can um hopefully end with some formal communication that perhaps this this committee should send to the police department.

Um backing up you know your summary of the charter, the city auditor's summary of the charter and their obligation, um and and perhaps more formally, I guess, requesting their presence um in this committee to respond to some significant issues that have been identified in in public and in our closed sessions, um, along with reiterating the importance of not just cooperating with the audit department and auditors when when they are asked to, but to do so um truthfully.

Um so uh I don't I don't know if other members are interested in that conversation.

I certainly think this rises to a level that should concern all of us.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Member Williams.

Thank you, Chairman Chair.

Um I couldn't agree more.

Um I think I'm still a little I don't know if confused is the right word um on why you're not getting the cooperation that you're that you're asking for.

Um and so from what what I've seen and heard today, what I've read through, um, I don't know if there's anything else to do except for have some form of a f a formal communication um back to MPD um requesting cooperation so that um I mean minimally we can move it forward um to get resolution to things that I think all of Minneapolis wants resolution to Vice Chair Singleton.

Thanks, Chair Payne.

Um yeah, echoing what everyone else has said, the other consideration I have is um in addition to a formal request of MPD, just to make sure that it's very clear and on the record um our expectations, um, whether there are other channels through which we should be communicating the um the lack of cooperation and the impact that that has on the ability of um audit to do its work.

Um so I don't know if city council, like if it sounds like this has already been raised with the council, but I'm wondering what other channels might be available um for making sure that this is resolved.

Vice President Chucktai.

Yeah, thank you.

I I suppose um I just wanted to hearing a lot of consensus about a path forward.

So um, Mr.

Chair, would it make sense if I made a motion to authorize um yourself and our vice chair um to work with the auditor to draft some formal communication on behalf of the audit committee, um both communicating to the MPD the the level of seriousness that that they must comply with the charter along with our expectations about what that what cooperation means and what it looks like.

Um so if if that would be appropriate at this time, I'll I'll make that motion and ask for a second.

Is there a second second?

Okay, that's been moved and seconded.

Um I that was exactly where my head was at, and I was thinking uh maybe a letter could get drafted that could be sent not just to MPD but to the mayor and to city council as well, so that the entire institution is on notice.

Um and the commissioner.

Member Bene, were you in queue?

Chair Payne, I have a different topic, so I want to not interrupt this one.

Not seeing anyone else on this topic.

I'll just um I feel like you presented these this information in such a professional way that it almost kind of obscures the fact that this is outrageous.

And I just want to really highlight and connect it to like a bigger picture.

The mayor banned no-knock warrants and then Amir Locke was killed on a no-knock warrant.

Um we have a settlement agreement that's in place that has an independent monitor overseeing the implementation of that work.

But we have a cons a federal consent decree that was withdrawn by the Trump administration.

The mayor issued an executive order uh essentially authorizing this institution to follow the federal consent decree.

But what we see in consent decrees is that barring independent oversight of the implementation of that work, um, we will see events like Amir Locke getting killed after the direct authority that's in charge said you can't conduct this type of operation.

And so it's really highlighting not just the need for MPD to follow the rules of the charter uh when it comes to audit.

It's also highlighting the need for audit to have the resources necessary to actually provide that independent oversight.

And one of the reasons we need those resources is because of the recalcitrance of the auditee.

Uh and that was one of the things that we were trying to remedy through council action by moving resources into the city auditors department.

And I really want to highlight the threat to the independence of the auditor by the mayor specifically, I will name by removing those um auditors from the recommended budget.

Um PD reports directly to the mayor.

If if MPD is not showing up to an audit meeting, uh we need to hold this mayor accountable as well.

And so I really want us to highlight not just the charter authority of the city auditor, but the responsibility of both council and mayor to ensure that we actually have a strong independent accountability framework that's implemented in the city of Minneapolis.

So I'm looking forward to collaborating with you on that letter and getting that circulated out to our colleagues because I think this is a red alert.

And we need to make sure that we highlight that.

So seeing no one else in queue for this discussion, I will recognize member Bene.

Do we need to take action on yeah, let's take action on Vice President Sharktai's motion to write that letter.

Um all those in favor say aye.

Aye, opposed say nay.

Abstentions?

I'd like to abstain.

Okay.

Um the ayes have it, and that motion carries.

And I think you have enough direction through that conversation, Mr.

Timmerman.

Uh yes, President Payne, thank you.

All right.

Uh now I will recognize member uh.

Thank you.

Um, you know, I'm just jumping back in here too.

So that that was a pretty exciting topic to jump right back in on, I have to say.

Um so I'm gonna take it a little slower here.

So but um one of the items was uh related to the ongoing um uh underway uh audit for the park board's revenue and collection audit.

And um I just wanted to say that I'm glad I'm glad that that's happening and just make a couple of comments that I would hope that you'll take into consideration.

I think it's a really important audit.

As you're already learning, the park board is a very distributed organization.

Way uh way out in the community.

And so I think as you're looking at this, and the other thing is oftentimes we'll have um I think they're called provisional or seasonal staff taking in money.

And so I think as much as you can um recommend, and I I don't have any reason to believe that there are issues, but recommend processes that are very robust, simple to follow, and can be very uniform across the organization.

I think that would be important.

So I just wanted to make that comment.

And thanks for being thorough in that audit.

Yeah.

Chair Payne, do you mind if uh I invite one of the auditors working on that up just to comment on a status update?

Absolutely.

Wonderful, thank you.

Okay.

No, because um since the audit lead lead this is like last week, so I've been you know working with the team uh delicently so that I can provide.

So basically um as a part of the audit, we have already had the preliminary issues.

Uh so basically we met with the uh IT director last week to validate some of those issues as well, and we do have meeting this week as well to talk to the management to validate some of those issues, and so we are in that reporting phase, and like you said uh audit committee uh been so we are keeping those things in mind so that you know it's standardized to all the because they do have a lot of these areas, and sometimes it's hard to manage uh as in a centralized fashion.

But uh we are meeting with the management to make sure like some of those uh things are dealt with in the future.

All right, thank you.

Thanks.

Member Williams.

Uh thanks, Chair Payne.

Can I make one more statement?

Um as it as it relates to the to the presentation we heard.

Um I think oftentimes uh this committee will question overdue or outstanding items um and ask about the speed or the pace and things that are going.

Um after hearing, and I know this was the topic that was that we want to talk about today, but after hearing kind of how you laid this out, and I agree professionally clearly so that we can understand start to end.

Um I just want to say out loud that if there are other issues or situations not related to this specific one, but to the other overdue or any audits that you guys are having.

Um I think oftentimes you guys will say, you know, we're working on that, or we're gonna look into that.

I hope that you guys also feel the freedom to kind of take a moment and explain other roadblocks that you guys are having with other audit topics as well.

So maybe just wanted to put that out there.

Uh Chair Payne and Committee Member Williams, yes, absolutely.

One of the items um that is in the draft charter that we'll talk about here in a few minutes um is just that is you know, how can we work with folks who are not um cooperating with audit, who are you know, maybe not taking it as seriously as they should be.

Um, and one of the ideas was to uh require them to come in front of this body and explain some of those delays.

So we can talk a little bit more about that, but I appreciate that invitation and uh I'm hoping we don't have to take you up on it, but I know we will uh member Omar.

Thank you.

Um just a question too, because uh one of the responses was about timing.

So they must have you know a weekly meeting to discuss crime.

Is there any possibility to ever hold a special session of this meeting to accommodate them if that's truly what the conflict is?

Uh Chair Payne, I would defer to the clerk to answer that.

Mr.

Clerk.

Any special meetings that um are proposed from the audit committee come from the chair.

And so any I would have to double check the uh specific bylaws, and that would be a review you and I would do quickly to see how special set or special meetings are made.

But I believe it would be through the chair setting a special meeting and being able to invite who you want to that meeting at the agenda setting.

So yeah, I think that that that that's plain and clear and maybe should be referenced in our letter to MPD uh to offer up a meeting that actually works for their schedule for them to prioritize this important update.

Okay.

Seeing no one else wishing to speak, I will first thank you for that presentation and ask the clerk to file that report.

And our next item of business is item number five, which is approving an amendment to the approved 2025 risk-based integrated audit plan by adding an engagement titled workforce optimization optimization benchmark study.

And I will invite Mr.

Timmerman to speak on this topic.

Thank you, Chair Payne, audit committee.

Uh we talked a little bit about this during the auditor updates.

Uh, I do not have a slide or anything um to share other than what's in the RCA.

This is uh simply a request for an addition to the audit plan, the workforce optimization and uh comparative benchmarking study will uh take a look at all of our departments, it will compare them against uh sister cities, we'll look at things such as uh the charter requirement for minimum number of SWARNA officers.

Is that something we see in other cities?

Is that a reasonable number?

Uh is the staffing level and resources provided to um cities public works appropriate.

You know, we we'll look at these large divisions, but we'll also look at some of the smallers and the smaller divisions and uh see if they are structurally uh comparable to other cities.

The idea is not specifically to find mismanagement.

The idea is to find um where we may be able to leverage cost savings.

Um I strongly feel this is a good investment of some of the additional FTE dollars that we were able to secure this last summer.

Uh I have spoken with the uh city operations officer who also is aware of this review and has committed to um participating and having staff participate, um, which as you know the charter requires, but um it's always good to have that support early on as well.

So uh with this item, we are looking for a vote to add it to the audit committee or sorry, the audit plan.

Are there any qu uh questions on this?

Member Husbean?

I just want to raise a comment that I think this is really critically important.

It's easy to get into these committee meetings with the I would agree kind of shocking details of some things, but this kind of work is really um that uh ERA piece.

I just really appreciate your focus on that and continuing that to be added.

Thank you.

See no one else left in queue, I uh move to approve the addition of the workforce optimization benchmark study to the 2025 risk-based integrated audit plan.

Is there a second?

Second.

All those in favor say aye.

Aye.

Opposed say nay.

That item carries and the amendment is adopted.

Uh next is item number six, which is receiving a request from the city council to provide recommendations on establishing an independent review function for high-impact public safety cases.

Uh and I'll speak on this topic.

So as you all recall, on Mr.

Turnerman's very first day, I think uh getting sworn in, we actually had the family of Alice and Lucher in chamber uh and they were demanding justice for the loss of their loved one.

And uh City Council made a formal uh request of the city auditor to take up that investigation.

Um also made a formal request to take up the uh Davis Maturry case as well.

And you know, speaking as a city council member, um I'm very grateful that the auditor came in on day one ready to lead in this way.

Um the unfortunate reality is that some of these high-profile cases where there is a victim and a family that is looking for answers, uh there are limitations to the capacity of the city auditor, at least as it's structured right now.

Uh and in the request to take on an after-action review of the uh murder of um uh Mariah Samuels the there was conversations with the city auditor around the capacity to take that on, and it was it was seen, especially in light of some of the pushback that is now coming to light around MPD on the existing cases that were in reviewing.

Uh there wasn't a lot of capacity for the auditor to take on another case, and we need to think long-term, how does this institution actually resolve these types of high-profile cases?

Because every family member who loses a loved one and has a case that's unsolved is good going to want that justice, right?

And so uh this motion was made as an alternative for that request for after action review to start to start the process of thinking about how we can really have a systematic approach to this.

Uh and so uh just by way of background, we have within our civil rights department, the Office of Police Conduct Review, which is an investigative agency that is tasked with uh reviewing on a case-by-case basis instances of police misconduct, but I think we need to have a broader conversation of you know is that the right place for uh these types of cases to get investigated?

Does it have the independence necessary for those investigations?

Does it have the capacity necessary for those investigations?

One of the things that is an unfortunate truth, whether it's in civil rights or an audit, um, even when you have the highest authority within city government to conduct these investigations, we see that there are um there's pushback from uh the agency that's under investigation.

And so I think there's an open question around while how would we systematically be able to investigate these cases and make sure that those families are getting a sense of justice in these cases while also um protecting the independence of those investigations and having the capacity and expertise to actually conduct those investigations.

So even in the case of um Alison Lucher and Davis Maturi, uh we are contracting those investigations out.

And I think that's partly to do with capacity, partly to do with expertise, partly to do with independence.

These are all factors that are weighing that we would want to consider as we were to if we were to implement some new investigative capacity.

So that that's the big background that I wanted to share.

Um but I would uh hand it over to Mr.

Timmerman to maybe share some thoughts, because I know you've put some consideration into it just from preliminary conversations.

Uh yes, Council President Payne and audit committee.

Uh the the request initially was to do an after action review on the uh murder of alleged murder of Mariah Samuels.

Um the perpetrator is in custody now, um, which I am glad to be able to share that.

The idea here is uh just what President Payne outlined.

Our office does not have the capacity to do individual systemic reviews whenever there is a high profile tragic incident.

When we are able to uh look at it from a risk-based lens, uh, such as we are looking at the domestic violence response, victim support response as it relates to uh Ellis and Lucher.

The similarities um are uh sadly astounding uh and another systemic review would end up with a lot of the same recommendations.

So to offer what family members are looking for, members of the public are demanding, is when there are cases where internal affairs is not the appropriate um body to investigate, or OPCR is not the appropriate body, or audit is not the appropriate body, that leaves us with nothing.

And so what this review will do uh is identify a place within the enterprise where these reviews can be handled independently.

It will determine what level of resources are needed for that.

And quite frankly, that work may end up in the Office of City Auditor.

Um like if it were to end up in civil rights, it would need to have um independence guardrails built.

Uh I think there are um examples where an Office of Inspector General exists within an office of city auditor or vice versa.

Um it it also may be recommended that it's a completely separate entity.

So I don't know the answers yet, but that's what this work is intended to do.

Member Hosbean?

Thank you, Chair Payne.

Um Mr.

Torman.

Um I would just very much in support of this.

As part of the request, I think it would be really helpful to understand what different definitions or um checkboxes equal a high impact public safety case.

Um and I think there's just oftentimes high profile versus resources versus privilege versus whatever that comes out of some of these, what becomes high profile versus what isn't, but maybe as equally as damaging and concerning and a threat to our community safety.

Um I guess I would just I would just love what that looks like in terms of it not being necessarily media or research resource-based.

Um, but it also can be available for possibly underrepresented or underserved members that maybe don't have that platform.

Uh and I have no idea what that is, so I appreciate anything that you can um put together as part of this plan for that.

Uh Chair Payne and uh committee member Hosbean, th that's a great thought.

We will definitely um perform this review with the lens on equity Vice President Chuck Tai.

Yeah, thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Um just to uh hopefully provide some additional context to what um uh member has been brought up right right before this.

I think we we uh so my office um worked with um Auditor Timmerman City Attorney Anderson um and the the other authors that were on the request, members Ellison and Wandsley, um that came to this committee.

Um and I think we landed on the language of high impact public safety.

Because you know, I think we uh I have a lot of concern that this just means like whatever's in the press, that's what we are we want to have, like a special arm to investigate, which is certainly not the intent here.

Um and so uh I think it was it was there there lacks language that can both appropriately describe, right?

Um that something went wrong here, that it came to our attention through a uh a more publicized manner, um, and it it is different from uh from something that that is more appropriate for uh OPCR and civil rights or or um internal affairs and MPD.

Um and um and and to like leave room open too for for folks that um you know if there is a space that exists through which or a mechanism that exists through which survivors and um family members of of victims uh can appropriately like seek some justice or can at least have a uh a neutral party look at their case and say this um this is where we found the deficiency uh or we just found none, right?

Whatever it may be, and then it can go to the appropriate channels.

That's that's that was the thought there.

But um I agree the language is is is insufficient and um yeah, but wanted to offer that insight.

Thank you.

And just to comment on that.

I think it's not insufficient in the requests for digging, but if without a strict definition or a checklist of what that looks like and what avenues can be used, that's where we would get like down the road into trouble.

But thank you for that, yeah.

Yeah, like an objective uh test to that defines what that is.

Okay, that's really helpful.

Uh member Williams.

Um thank you, Chair Payne.

Um I'm also maybe I can get some clarification too.

I'm confused on what's being audited.

Is it the process that took place?

So this is a this is a uh audit after the fact.

Is it a simultaneous audit?

Is it the audit itself?

Maybe I can just get some clarification on these high profile, what is it that this special unit is going to be auditing and when?

Mr.

Timmerman?

So I'm gonna kind of answer a question that was asked and a question that wasn't asked.

So this audit um will be potentially built into our 2026 audit plan, which will review the enterprise to determine where this type of work could do.

I think the question that you asked though is what will those people do.

Um the work that they will do will be uh similar to audit.

So OPCR looks at complaints from the public against individual officers uh about individual or multiple interactions.

Internal affairs looks at uh complaints that are made by city employees against officers.

There's nowhere in the organization that looks at a breakdown in process after an individual um tragedy has occurred.

So we have taken that on with Lucher and Maturi.

Um, but typically we look at process uh and decide those at the beginning of the year.

We look at them on risk-based determinations.

Uh it is not reactionary to um public concern, uh family concern, things of that nature.

So it would be doing the same type of review that we are doing on Lucer Maturi, where we are looking for process breakdowns to identify uh accountability, but also to identify recommendations for improvement.

And then I would just add um as we think about the accountability feedback loop or framework.

Uh you know, the consent decree is probably the clearest iteration of this, but uh we have a very clear black and white document that is enforced by the courts that says you need to make XY and Z changes to your department.

Those changes will result in new policies.

Those policies need to be trained, and then people need to be held to those policies.

So that if they're not, if they go outside of the policy, there should be some sort of consequence, usually in discipline, but not always.

Actually, an accountable public safety system overall.

If we don't have a way to close that feedback loop, and you know, in these instances, it could have been that every single police officer followed every policy and procedure by the book and still a tragedy happened.

That means that our policies and procedures are wrong, not that the conduct of any individual police officer is wrong.

And broader, broader context, I mentioned that the mayor issued an executive order to implement the provisions of the federal consent decree.

But that that leaves out the role of the court.

And one of the things that is a long-term mission of mine, it's why I'm here, is how do we actually create within the four walls of this institution that that closed feedback loop of accountability?

So I'm introducing an ordinance in the next cycle around the reporting requirements that are outlined in the consent decree as a complementary piece of legislation to the mayor's executive order.

But I'm still operating within the constraints of the charter as it exists right now.

I'm hoping through this review from the city auditor that there's the possibility of even some charter change recommendations.

There might be a need for an independent office of uh inspector general that is purpose built for this accountability feedback loop that can operate even independent of the city auditor.

Because what I think is a like a really durable theme in all of this is the agencies that are supposed to be doing the investigation of MPD need to maintain a degree of relationship with MPD.

And there's this constant tension of not wanting to push them so hard that they shut down from you or not wanting to push them so hard that they they completely shut off interacting with you.

Uh and right now, the only mechanism that we have to resolve that is the authority of the mayor to say there's a consequence that I'm gonna dole out with my authority if you don't cooperate, right?

That's the only actual formal authority, and we see politically that this is not just this mayor, many mayors over the history of the city have not used that authority to hold MPD accountable.

So what is that entity that will hold MPD accountable?

The intention of a consent decree was that a federal court was going to be that entity.

We don't have that uh now uh now that the Trump administration withdrew the federal consent decree.

So this may result in the short term a new division within the city auditor's office, but over the long term it it may require a charter change to create an entire office of inspector general.

But this today we are starting the work of laying out that roadmap roadmap.

Member Bene.

Thank you, Chair Payne.

Just so just to clarify, today's uh maybe an act if this is an action that's voted on, it would be added to the uh potentially added to the work plan for 2026.

And it's to find identify and make recommendations for filling this for the gap essentially.

Uh Chair Pay and Committee Member Abini, that is exactly correct.

Okay.

Thank you.

Yep.

All right.

Seeing no further questions or comments from committee members, I will direct the city auditor to establish an independent review function for high impact public safety cases.

All those in favor say aye.

Aye.

Those opposed say nay.

Any abstentions?

That carries.

Next, we have item number seven, which is receiving and discussing proposed updates and amendments to the audit charter.

I will once again invite Mr.

Timmerman to present on this item.

Uh thank you, Chair Payne and audit committee.

Um I don't know.

Yes, we do have it on the screen.

So uh you should also have a copy in front of you.

Uh as we talked about at the audit committee training, as we talked about at the August audit committee meeting, um we wanted to take some time collectively to update the audit charter.

Uh it's still referenced par and ONE and and some other things.

And so in the RCA, there is a version, the old version, and then there is a new version.

The old version does have redlining, but I moved a significant number of things around.

So actually looking at the new version side by side, which I'm not doing on screen here, not to confuse you.

But if you wanted to see the difference, that would be the best way to do it.

The tweaks, and that is some streamlining for plain language, readability, updating with our new mission.

We definitely call out some more of the independence requirements.

We talk about uh further down the standards of audit practice, which are um now expanded to include uh the USGAO yellow book or the uh generally accepted government auditing standards in addition to IIA standards.

Um there's a few new items in here based on the discussions that we have and that or have had one is where are we one that has come up today, and that is uh that the city auditor shall notify the audit committee if an auditee fails to cooperate with an audit um and then they would need to come discuss with the audit committee what that delay is.

Um I'm gonna leave it there just to open up the discussion.

Um I know that the city attorney uh that helps support the audit committee also has some thoughts.

So um, you know, the if we could just have time for an open discussion, um I will kind of let you guys do your thing.

I'll sit down for a minute, but if you have questions, just let me know.

Member Peney.

Thank you, Chair Payne.

Um yeah, actually I do have questions and I have a couple of things I just um, you know, again, jumping back into this, but I took some time to review this and understand why why it's happening.

Um and some of my um maybe comments here might even be somewhat grammatical, and I forgive me, I just have to I have to make them.

So with that, I think um in the beginning uh under the introduction, there's uh kind of a past tense for demonstrated a public commitment, and I think you know, sort of making that a present tense of of demonstrate a continued commitment or something like that.

That's just my thought.

Uh but in that same um line in that same sentence, I believe there's a little bit of a non-sequitur um referring to the although the internal city audit, the internal audit function and audit committee were court uh codified before.

Um, you know, I think it's a bit of a non-sequitur.

If you could take a look at that uh at that sentence.

Um and then down under purpose um a lot was omitted.

I'm looking at the actually the I marked up the the track changes document.

I think it uh just rec recommending removing the word after this charter of further, just this charter defines the rule and authority.

Um I have a little more meaty stuff coming up, I promise.

Um so under item six, um there's uh it says the city council may remove the auditor.

And I'm wondering why it's the city council and not the audit committee in that in that case.

Uh Chair Payne and committee member of Ben A, uh the I believe it's the city charter, but it might be city ordinance that articulates this.

Um it's a very valid question.

Uh and I don't know the origination of that uh or the intent of that.

Um maybe possibly somebody on the committee knows or the attorney knows.

Uh off the top of my head, the city auditor is an officer, and there is a provision in the charter for the removal of officers broadly.

Okay.

So with members of the audit committee serving on the city council, there's probably enough connection there for it to be a relevant action because I don't know that the whole city council always pays as much attention to maybe the office of the auditor.

I'm not I'm not sure about that, but okay.

I'm I'm satisfied.

Um there was um let me see, I'm sorry.

Okay, so um for the um the the it's item two now, I believe the development develop an annual um risk-based audit plan.

Um forgive me now I made these notes so long ago.

There is some approval by the audit committee and um okay, so never mind there.

I forgive me.

Okay, so under preliminary scope, the scope uh it says will be further uh defined during preliminary audit work, and I wonder if it should just say maybe further defined.

Um and that those changes should be approved.

Um then under um audit uh um under five um update the audit plan.

I think it should say uh the city auditor shall uh notify the audit committee, but I'm wondering where these special reviews come from, but I think I just had my question answered.

So maybe that could be clarified um where these come from, and in this case it could be the council, the mayor, or others.

I'm not clear on that.

Uh Chair Payne and Committee member Benet.

So for the update the audit plan and notifying um the audit committee, that comes from IIA standards.

Okay.

Um I have appreciated the flexibility of this committee in the sense that um oftentimes scope changes need to occur while we're doing the audit.

So for example, we talked about one earlier today where we added 2025 because we had first started the audit, um, but time had gone on.

And so there are times where we need to adjust the scope as we are working.

Um so that is why I had should notify.

Uh I am fine with shall notify.

The concern that I have though is getting pre-approval on some of these things with scope adjustments because they're typically as simple as adding a year, removing a year, or changes affected by you know, maybe staff adjustments.

Okay.

And then I think my last question is down under, I think it's item 10.

Um, and it and and I think I sort of had my question answered by one of the earlier presentations today, but the uh the items uh B significant past findings or recommendations that have not been fully addressed by the by city management.

We're hearing a little bit of that today.

But at what point, you know, some of the you know, in the audit plan report, the open items from past audits, some of those have probably been lingering for a while.

At what point does the city auditor flag those to the committee requiring more um you know, something something different to make them happen more rapidly?

So I guess I think you learn about those items by keep keeping these audits open and continuing to work with the city departments.

Is that correct?

Uh Chair Payne and audit committee.

Yes, that is correct.

Um I like the suggestion of flagging others because as you saw today, there are some that are from 2019, I believe.

Um sometimes it's a quick update because they're not major uh or we know we know that they're in process.

Um and other times they give us pause, and so we should be flagging those for you.

So I will um I'll work on some language to set like a threshold for when we should go into more depth on those and why we're getting delay.

Okay, thank you.

I think those are my comments.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Member Hospin.

Um just uh one comment.

Um thank you, Chair Payne.

Uh commitment, I just to your um adjustment of 2B.

Um so it says now the approval of the audit committee.

I just have our question here, uh Mr.

Towerman for you and please weigh in.

Um I don't know if I as a member of the audit committee care to approve if it's not if it's within the preliminary scope.

I don't want to create additional bandwidth or work concerns.

Um by having kind of refinement and the definition being required by approval from us since we're in every other month committee.

So I just want to see where if we can find a middle ground with that.

I mean Chair Payne, I don't you know, addressing through you.

I don't know.

I'm I guess I'm not suggesting something too um cumbersome other than if it's a really different scope.

That would be it.

And I'm you know, I know there's some ambiguity there.

Maybe not occasion.

Okay, thank you.

Uh Chair Payne and audit committee, I like the idea to require notification, and then uh I can add something parenthetically that if it's beyond date personnel, you know, kind of those core items.

If it's something beyond that, like we were going to audit um P cards, but because we found fraud, now we are doing a fraud audit.

I mean, if it's a significant scope change, I'll come up with a way to identify that.

Perfect.

Thank you for that conversation.

Um then I'm just uh I will say my review of this before the meeting um regarding section four and 10B maybe was more comfortable than I am today after having kind of seen some of the the issues that your office is um dealing with.

Um so I feel like I'm talking on the fly because my notes for these two, like I said, as of last night versus now just might be a little bit different.

Um because I'm wondering if we need to add something that if they are not attending the meeting, what happens next.

And I know there were discussions about some sort of legislative or um there need to be other support outside of this committee or city council to do that.

So I would just love any input there because I don't know the right path.

Um and then 10B.

I know definitely kind of connects with the new four.

Um so I don't know what if that is a place that it could be um increased as well, um, because that is really recommendations have not been fully addressed by city management.

Um I had more thoughtfulness, I would have recommendations, but just one of those two things commented for as we look through this.

Um yeah, happy for any other input or ideas there.

Um and then um and then three, and unfortunately I don't have my track changes on this computer.

Um three, I just want to make sure that we are feeling that three is um sorry, other considerations number three.

Um that this is enough to make sure that we have the right um support for those city council recommendations, and if you feel like you need anything else here from either an audit committee perspective or um uh a personnel or office perspective for um other considerations, number three.

Uh Chair Payne audit committee.

That this was a difficult one.

I know we had conversations about it, you know, what is the specific process.

Um I had received feedback from a a couple folks in the clerk's office saying that we need to be mindful that procedurally we are not from this committee directing the council to do something.

Yeah, um, and that's why this stayed fairly general and vague.

I do want to just um see if the city attorney has any thoughts on this particular item.

Uh Chair Payne, Mr.

Timmerman.

You're referring to the the one about the clerks, right?

I correct.

So other considerations number three.

Yes, I I think my primary concern with that would be to make sure that we don't accidentally infringe upon the city clerk's authority since he is the the um individual who has managerial responsibility over the city clerk's office.

So to that point, we could strengthen the language here.

Um what the city attorney mentioned that is why it's vague between the clerk's authority as well as the city council's um my what I told council president was that maybe we see how the first one or two go and then we update with more specific language on how that process shakes out.

No, I like that.

I I think I'm happy with this being driven by what you think you can do with this language.

Thank you.

How that goes.

But thank you for the discussion and the background.

Vice President Chuck Dye.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Um just speaking to scope and responsibilities, number four, the notification to the audit committee due to failure of cooperation or meeting established deadlines.

Um agree that based on the discussion today, I really feel like this is a space that we should add some some meat.

Um and in particular, I think it would be um I don't know that I have specific um language to offer here, but uh but um happy to brainstorm and and share those in writing via email afterwards.

But for now, I think the comment I would share is um it I think it would be really helpful if we had some sort of like you know escalating scale that um you know I appreciate that it that it should always start with notification to the committee so that we are not surprised when we get to um you know a logical endpoint where it's been months of um you know being our our staff being stonewalled and then and then now we're having this conversation in the press where the department is is uh denying um that they have been they've refused to cooperate um or have been obstinate in in that process.

So um, yeah, so I think like an escalating scale um and and remedies that include both bringing in the the like the department head um or the cabinet member that oversees that body of work um to you know um like the the subject that the auditi that is specifically um you know being um or providing uh or or creating intentionally or unintentionally um these types of concerns I think that's all I have to offer for now.

Vice Chair Singleton.

Thank you, Chair Payne.

Um I have one that I guess goes against the grain of what we've been talking about a little bit.

Um but under the authority section, the first bullet point.

Um I'm wondering specifically about access to documents and records of organizations receiving city funds or funds passed through the city.

And I guess the example I have in mind is thinking about like I know certain um nonprofit legal organizations receive funds to provide like eviction defense or immigration services where that would raise um like confidentiality issues where they wouldn't be able to provide those documents.

So I don't know, and I was also just thinking about, I guess, from like I guess this is my lawyer brain.

Like, does that impact like contracts or relationships that have already been established that might not have include um that type of a provision?

So I don't know whether it's possible to add language that like protects any documentation that might be um confidential or protected by other state or um our other provisions uh chair Payne and audit committee members, that is a really good consideration in every audit environment that I've worked, um, vendors and consultants are concerned uh when audit requests information and rightfully so.

They have trade secret information, they might have uh PII or you know, HIPAA protected information.

Um the charter is clear that those organizations must still comply, and of course we protect that information.

We can certainly strengthen the language within the charter itself to um maybe explain how we protect that information.

Um for your awareness, we don't ask for it if we don't need it as a part of the audit because we don't want to maintain it either, if not necessary.

Um this language I do believe is directly from the charter, which is why it's worded the way it is.

If it's not, I can um maybe update it further.

But we do take um information security incredibly seriously, so much so that we're having that office uh come provide a training to our office in December.

Okay, that's great.

Thank you.

And then one more question.

Um, other considerations, um item number one.

I'm just curious, it it speaks to may nominate certain positions.

And I guess I'm curious as to things.

One, um like whether it makes sense to um name specific positions versus just providing that authority more generally.

And then second, if you could speak to um following like a nomination and appointment process versus a hiring and like where that level changes, if that makes sense.

Sure.

Um I may need to get back to if there are specific questions here.

Um the old charter um said that the city auditor may appoint the internal audit director.

Uh and I know we've gone through that process in the past um before my time.

Uh it did not list the other two, but because those are two new positions we're uh attempting to create.

Um I thought that if we're doing that with the internal audit director, it only makes sense to do that with the other director as well as the city auditor.

Um we do follow city classifications.

So for example, the quality assurance and training manager position uh was on the fence whether it was going to be um a a position that was covered by a collective bargaining unit or a position that was um covered by civil service rules.

Um we we kind of land where HR lands.

I don't pressure one way or another on that.

Um so to me, maybe that's where the distinction is.

Um, or it's just division heads and higher, um, which is the thinking I had here.

That makes sense, thank you.

Any other questions or comments?

Mr.

Timmerman?

Uh Chair Payne, one last thing that I wanted to mention is that um, you know, this was meant to be a conversation, to take some notes in.

Um my hope is that I can work with the city attorney's office to finalize some of this and bring it back to you in in a final version in December, incorporating these changes.

Um I will make sure to get it out to you with enough time uh to review it if you have suggestions beyond what is in that document, please send them uh to our office.

Great.

So no further action required at this time, and I will direct the clerk to receive and file this report.

And seeing no further business before us and without objection, I declare this meeting adjourned.

Thank you.