I think I'm waiting.

Let's ask.

Are we ready to go?

Are we ready?

So are we live?

Okay.

So I would like to call to order our workshop this morning.

Um, thank you, everyone for being here.

This is a joint workshop with the planning and zoning commission.

Uh NAPA development corp and the city council.

And we will begin with Roll Call.

Okay, and then the roll call for the whichever one you're gonna do first.

Gardner.

Daffer.

Turner.

Keyhoe.

Thank you.

Morgan.

Kirkman.

Selman.

Copeland?

I'm present.

For the Napa Development Corporation.

Cornelius.

Bruner.

Manetti.

Rhodes.

Hutchins?

Three present and two council members.

Thank you.

Thank you for being here today.

I appreciate it as we get started.

And I think how many of us were at the last meeting?

Hopefully everyone was.

So today is the second round.

We really appreciated Ben and Nathan, you being here with us today to go over this.

So I'll let you take it from here.

Thank you.

Yes.

Just pull it up a little bit if you can.

Yeah.

Good.

Good enough.

I'll just talk louder.

We're good.

Thanks for having us here today.

We heard last time there was some.

I don't think concerns was our word.

There was some confusion on what form based code is, how it's regulated, what the efforts are.

So what we put together for today is kind of not necessarily a refresher, but more information about how the form-based code is put together, what that means.

And then we also have a hands-on exercise for you today.

So you can take the form-based code information and see what a building would be.

Let's take planning commission if you were said we're trying to approve this building, and then we'll go through that exercise as a council and a commission and say does it meet or does it not meet?

So you guys can understand what the form based code really means by approval of items.

Okay.

So what we're gonna cover today, uh, why form based code for the downtown?

The city's gonna cover uh historic character elements.

Then we'll it'll come back to us for general development standards, overview of districts and uses, the scenario testing, and then the next steps.

What we'll do is after this presentation is done, we will make it public to everybody.

I mean, it's gonna it's a public meeting, right?

So they'll see it anyways, but we'll make the PDF available to everybody as well.

Uh so I just wanted to touch on this map here.

Uh one of the feedback items we heard uh was the alteration of the CH and CD districts.

Um so as you can see with the CH, we extended it along 12th straight down to the depot to make sure that was encompassed in the CH district, and the the view shreds along the artery uh were preserved and the the architectural styles were also consistent with the depot.

Okay.

Um so why form-based code is important with the way Euclidean zoning worked, and I'm gonna I'm gonna give you a 30-second elevator pitch.

Please jump in at any time.

Uh the way Euclidean zoning works is it tells you how far stepbacks are, setbacks are, and it limits the mass you can put on a site or the building square footage you can put on a site.

Form-based code comes at it from a different angle where you're trying to say we want to match the style, the height, the massing, and the look of the community.

So as opposed to regulating and saying, nope, can't put a building there, you gotta be 10 foot off the side, or nope, can't put a building there, you don't have enough parking.

It's more about if we're gonna put something there, we want it to match the look and feel of the rest of that character district.

So in a downtown, that's really really important because uh, as you guys all know, your lots in downtown NAMPA are very sh narrow and very deep.

They are not your traditional square lot.

So having something that is adaptive to mold to that is very important.

Also allows for the community to have a little more feedback and input as to what is achievable on a site, what's buildable on a site, and have prescriptive abilities to say what that building is going to look like.

It's also a halfway in between where developers are happier by the efforts of a what's the best place, a known process.

Form-based code gives them a known framework to work within, as opposed to somebody saying I don't like something, or we don't like that material, or that doesn't work, or whatever it may be, things are clearly delineated and defined in the form-based code that says this is what we're doing.

It also helps, and most important thing here is it helps with the city staff being able to more easily approve or reject or give feedback to a developer or somebody that wants to change or alter a building in the downtown.

It streamlines the effort because it gives a uh more or less a yes or no answer as opposed to a well maybe type of answer.

One thing I'll tell you is developers hate the yes but if you give them that answer.

They just don't like to hear that.

Uh if we talk about this kind of being in the downtown, what I'll give you is um it's really important to make sure you have the different character districts because everything's based off those character districts.

And as we heard, preserving the train depot and that view shed tool is really important, so we did change that.

We would ask everybody as we go through this, please pay attention to the character districts because that's going to define the style, the height, the massing, and the material of the buildings that would be built in each one of those districts.

There's going to be some things that'll be a shall and some things that'll be a should, and we're gonna cover those a little bit with the hands on exercise.

Um where this is a little different than code is it's not written as code with only shalls and shoulds.

There's a lot of things that are recommendations and a lot of things that are required.

So there's gonna be a little bit of a different language to this, but the goal is to have the form-based code help create and define and build more buildings in the downtown or in the downtown surrounding areas that match the character of NAMPA.

Um, nobody wants to be Meridian.

We tried to go to dinner last night and it was very busy.

So Texas Roadhouse.

It's always busy.

But we didn't think like a random Wednesday at 6 30 p.m.

was gonna be horrible.

If we went on Friday, I expect it to be bad.

Um Robin.

Sorry, Morgan.

I'm looking at you thinking Robin, it's fine.

Gotta put this make way down.

Um, something we did hear.

Bless you.

Bless you, Doug.

Um something we heard out of our meeting, um, the last meeting we had in this context from the group was a lot of concerns that had more to do with the preservation of our current building stock and buildings we have in love.

Um, outside of that conversation of the redevelopment.

And so we wanted to come back as staff and explain how the form-based code and historic preservation code work together.

Historically in NAMPA, historic preservation is something that we have done kind of through our zoning code.

It has been a challenge.

Um I have been around for many iterations of that arts and historic preservation commission, staffing it and working with that group as they have developed more processes, getting more involved in their reviews, and trying to make those recommendations about how to maintain the character in our downtown without uh being an undue burden on new development.

So the Arts and Historic Preservation Commission, where we're at right now, is they are looking at draft code and processes to come alongside form-based code to provide that preservation protection.

What that would look like is arts and historic preservation review would only occur for our federally or locally designated districts or landmark properties.

The code would create those protections and review processes for the eligible properties, designated properties, and there's some there's a difference here between locally designated and federally designated.

Federal historic preservation designations are honorary and frankly designed primarily for properties to be able to utilize the Section 106 tax credit.

It is, of course, we want to preserve the character and history of our community, but that federal designation really has a specific purpose, and it's very, very stringent.

We actually did the survey work for the Hasbrook House in 2019, and that property does not qualify for a federal designation.

It's had too much alteration, but we know that, or at least I feel like I know.

If something came forward and someone wanted to demolish or radically change the Hasbrook house, the community would be up in arms.

So this historic preservation code is set up really to prevent that.

If I could, the way historic preservation works is there's credit or there's criteria for A, B.

Yeah.

There's criteria for A, B, and C for historic preservation.

Everybody thinks that if your building's 50 years or older, you qualify.

That is not accurate.

As Morgan said, just because your building's old enough doesn't mean you're eligible.

You have to either have had a historical element happen there, or you've had it's important to your character of your community for historic reasons.

Some event happened in that building.

So when you start thinking about historic preservation, don't stress over is the building 50 years or older.

Think about what's important to the community and then check for 50 years.

So just kind of a precursor there.

Spacebar.

So again, as staff, we are working through our next steps with the arts and historic preservation commission on our side.

So there's an ad hoc committee out of the arts and historic preservation commission that has been created that is working through that.

We've had our first meeting.

Um councilman slash arts and historic preservation commissioner Haverfield is on that group.

Um they're working together on putting together the initial local landmark list.

Then we'll have the code go through legal review and the public hearing process that's required to adopt it.

And then we will run that initial landmark list through after the code has been established.

So we wanted to let you know that that process is in the works.

And as we have this conversation about form-based code, just for everyone to keep in the back of their mind, protecting our historic buildings and the buildings that we love in the community is something that's top of mind.

It just doesn't fit into this particular form-based code context in the way that we're used to looking at historic preservation in NAMPA.

Um and then what I'll give you about to add on to Morgan's comment is in the historic district, and I'm just gonna go back to the map.

The CH, there's going to be a lot of required architectural styles, required elements, required things that allow it to meld with those guidelines for historic preservation.

So it's not just saying historic preservation is over there and form-based codes over here.

We're taking and bringing them together to a point where we say these are the styles, these are the materials, these are the things that are in that specific district.

So when you start looking through things, the CH district is gonna have a lot of requireds and less recommendeds, and as you go to the other districts, there's going to be more recommendeds and less required.

And that's so you understand the historic preservation is the most strict district in the form-based code.

Okay, was this me or you?

This was me.

Um historic character elements.

So again, CH district.

What you're seeing in front of you, these are the architectural styles that are allowed in the CH district, because these are the ones that have been determined to be eligible or matching your character elements of the community.

Romanesque, Renaissance Revival, Neoclassical, Art Deco, and Streamline Modern.

I don't know why they they spell modern wrong, but it's fine.

Damn French.

Um these are all required elements, so massing composition roof styles, they match in the CH district.

So where you have your most historic districts, that's where your form-based code is going to align with your historic preservation guidelines to require that in your CH district.

And as you see in this little table on the bottom right, as you get into C D C11, C16, and CR, those are recommended.

They are not required.

So let's say somebody wants to build a another building in the CH district, it's going to be one of these five styles of architectural style.

It's not going to be a desire to put up a modern steel and glass building.

It's now going to say this is what you must do.

So when people were worried about losing the character of the community, now that CH is more refined to go there.

So we talked about the street types and frontage type map a little bit last time, but I just want to do a refresher here.

So street types, we have a few different uh classifications.

Um we have major and minor arterial, um, collector, local roads, uh, pedestrian only passages and shared use passages.

Um, nothing really changed here.

Actually, I don't think anything changed uh from the last time we looked at this.

Um, and then we also have the frontage type maps.

Uh so we have primary, secondary, and tertiary.

Um, and I'm not sure if this changed, but I just wanted to touch on it.

The no frontage is for those alleys, and that way we can help encourage second pedestrian accesses for businesses that abut the alleys.

So their primary entrance will be from the from the main road, um, but it encourages and allows for that.

What it does is allows more flexibility between if somebody wants to have a back entrance, it does not require it to be the exact same as the front entrance.

So if your front entrance is on a historic corridor, you don't have to replicate the same character elements all the way back.

So these two maps are just uh critical for the next two slides that we're gonna look at.

So one of the things that we heard um is along like 12th half um and some of the other arterials, there's a desire for uh preserving the view sheds, uh, for example, to the depot.

Um, and so the first item that we have is stepbacks.

So after the second story, or I believe it's 35 feet um or 30 feet, um, it steps back um 10 to 15 feet from that uh front facade um to allow more light to reach the ground uh to preserve that view shed, um, and then also as people are walking along the corridor, they don't feel like there's an imposing building right there on the street that they have a little bit more human scale development um as they're walking along, and so that's gonna be along um first, second, and third um in 12th half.

Uh we also have uh setbacks along major and minor arterials.

Um, my apologies.

The stepbacks are along primary frontages, um, and so that's regulated by this frontage type map here.

Um, and so that is what the roads that I just mentioned.

Um the major and minor arterials are regulating setbacks, which um that's the distance from the uh property line.

Um and so one of the feedback items that we heard last time uh is that along busier roads, there's more of a desire to create more pedestrian space so that people feel more protected protected from the cars that are buzzing by.

Um so we're giving a little bit more distance along those roads.

Um so there's a 10 foot minimum uh along major and minor arterials.

Um the result from that is there's also going to be more sidewalk space, but then there's also going to be that pedestrian uh BTZ pedestrian space, which is the result of that the articulation in the building as shown in number three.

And the the important thing of the BTZ is uh as your if you look at your downtown historically, your buildings don't all make perfect lines as you go across.

Those stepbacks or those pushbacks and articulation of the building frontages is what's going to give you that BTZ or the build to zones.

So that's where people put tables and chairs and they put out their little dining areas.

That's where you can put benches.

It's areas that you can put things that are not in the pedestrian circulation pattern, but they're also required really important to be in front of or in the pedestrian walkway area.

So I just want to make sure that everybody understands this.

We went back for back and forth with staff on definitions just to make sure we were all clear because there was some confusion on this.

Um so we have the property line here, um, and then we have the um 10 foot setback, which is that space that number two shows.

Um, and then the distance from where number three and that property line is is that 15 feet.

So um up at number one, um, or excuse me, a number two where it's a five-foot setback uh from that 10 foot line.

That 10 to 15 is creating that articulation.

Um, so we have the 10 foot minimum offset uh to 15 feet.

So that's where that BTZ space is.

Um so I just want to make sure that's clear for everybody where that comes from.

So it is okay if I just kind of point it out on the screen for everybody.

Okay.

So this is the 10 foot setback, so the minimum is 10 foot, the maximum is 10.

So that's how you get the second.

Yeah, people are more popular.

Um can you line up?

So right here, if you can see my cursor, um, this is the property line right here.

This is the 10 foot line, and this is the 15 foot line right here.

So that's how it's regulated to give more space.

So then on roads that are not major and minor arterials, we have less of a setback.

Um so we're allowing people to build right up to the property line.

Um, and so there's a um zero to five foot.

So the BTZ is still the same.

Um, so that's that five foot increment.

Um, but instead of being 10 to 15, it's zero to five.

So same concepts, just a different standard.

Any questions on these development standards?

Want to pause here?

I I have a question.

Five feet doesn't seem like enough.

I mean, our pathways we try to make wider than that.

So along any right-of-way, I can't imagine not having a wider setback for safety purposes.

So the five feet is the BTZ pedestrian space, so it's not necessarily the sidewalks.

We can make that minimum a maximum different, certainly, but the this green space right here is that five feet.

So there is a sidewalk for the right-of-way includes the sidewalk.

So their property line is you've got a road, then you've got a sidewalk, then you've got that.

So the 10-foot is the sidewalk.

That's the minimum space for that sidewalk in the downtown.

And then that extra five foot is basically saying if you want to put amenities behind the sidewalk but before your building, it's that five-foot space.

Again, planter boxes, benches, bistro tables, things that you don't want in the circulation pattern of people walking or riding their bikes, but you also need in front of the shops.

So we're trying to give them a way, a business owner, a building owner way to make space for people to congregate outside that is not on the sidewalk.

But so what I think I'm seeing is the number two minimum setback does not include the sidewalk.

That is not the sidewalk, or it is the sidewalk.

Yes.

Okay, now in the next slide where it goes down to nothing, where's the sidewalk?

So this right-of-way right here that's shown that that's already existing sidewalk.

Yes.

Um, in this instance, we're adding to that.

So we're adding an additional 10 feet.

Um, but in this one, we're saying the existing sidewalk is sufficient.

Um, and so that'll be just that.

And so with slide two, what you're looking at here is more like your existing downtown.

If somebody wants to build a building, just like it would be at the back of the sidewalk, but they could go five foot off the back of the sidewalk to give a little patio space.

Thank you for helping me get it.

Thank you.

Actually, I think so.

This just goes back to the map just to show how it applies again.

Uh, but that's it for the development standards.

Are there any other questions on this?

Can I ask one more question?

Of course.

If you don't mind, when we were looking at the architectural style that you showed a few slides back, who chooses those styles?

How does that get chosen?

That's fine.

Um, so this came from the uh design guidelines.

Um, and so we pulled from it uh and try to codify what the existing uh desires were for the districts.

So just to go back, we're trying to bring together all of these existing regulations and make them more robust um so they're a little bit more clear and articulated uh while still trying to achieve the same outcomes uh for those targeted areas for the historic area.

So I guess my case short answer is it's what you have and what people have already determined through historic preservation guidelines what matches your character.

So I so is there a time to talk at maybe a different time.

I'm looking at the streamline modern art deco a little bit, but there's not much of it.

I don't think well, maybe, but the streamline modern, I don't do we have that in our downtown, and do we the best candidate for Art Deco is the flying M coffee?

Okay.

That's that's the best way to describe that one.

It has more art deco elements than most buildings do.

But it's one of many, I can't.

It's one of many, that's correct.

The question in my mind is if someone comes in and we have this in our standard, but that isn't necessarily, I know maybe somebody does want that, but I'm thinking it doesn't look like downtown NAMPA, right?

I don't I feel like there would be an inconsistency if we had a new building come in with this style.

So, but if it's in our guidelines, it's saying yes, this is an option.

Yes, and the way the reason it's in the guidelines is when they take a swath and historic preservation is done, they set your area of precedence for a time frame and a style of architecture.

All of these are in the same time frame of precedence of being built.

Now, if you don't want one of them, now is the time to speak up.

Thank you, Mayor, and say we really don't want streamlined modern, and that's okay, but we need to know that so we can plan accordingly to axit.

When is the time for it?

You'll have to go out and use the mic.

And I guess the question would be when is the timeline in the process to have the discussion around this?

Right now, right now.

Yep.

Okay.

And Mayor, I can speak to that specifically and how that ended up.

So those guidelines came through uh a number.

I think we're on our third round now of architectural surveys in the downtown core.

And the streamline, the streamline is the architectural definition that the and again, this kind of all feeds up into that historic preservation guidelines and the styles that are defined in those documents.

I believe this was the best attempt at allowing a uh adaptive reuse of all of the car showrooms.

So those are 40s, 50s buildings.

A lot of them have really interesting windows.

I'm right now specifically thinking of, let's say in the future someone wanted to redo the St.

Vincent DePaul building, and the way that facade is with the large glass store fronts, and they sit at an angle, and there's some interesting pillars.

This is just the defined and kind of generally accepted architectural style that those kind of buildings fit into.

And there's not a great one-for-one fit to convert those into a restaurant or a retail or something like that.

So I think that was the surveys nod to how do we make something where those can fit.

One thing I one thing I will say is what's the address of the building that Derek just finished with the tile on the outside.

Right next to the container garden.

Everybody knows it's the gray tile on the outside of the building.

That's the other one that would fit in the streamline modern style.

Again, heavy wood cased windows, uh non-stone, non-brick type of facade.

Thank you.

Okay, so Victor Rodriguez is on and has a question.

Go ahead, Victor.

Thank you.

So are we needing to pick between these five?

Because I think to stay in to stay in line with the original decor that they have now.

So would be the Romanesque and Renaissance revival.

That's what I see is what downtown's about right now.

Are you are you saying that we can interject some of these other ones in there to keep the character or not?

Do you mean please?

So Victor, what we're saying is the historical resource surveys have said these five are the character styles that are already in the downtown.

So we're not changing anything.

These are things that are already in the character of the downtown.

Oh, I see.

Because I was wondering about that.

I I'm not sure about streamlined, but um I wasn't sure which direction we were headed, but that's no, that's amazing.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you, Mayor.

So, yes.

Sebastian.

Just understanding Morgan's definition, and this is more to the presenters.

I'm sure there's a lot of photos that you can pull from that might show streamline modern.

I understand your explanation of the car fronts and having uh St.

Paul's.

Maybe find when it comes out to the community a better looking picture that because I understand the definition.

Uh, it has to fall within the classification.

It doesn't have to look like this, right because that's ugly, and I would agree.

It makes downtown look horrible.

It's a f I mean that to me that says like Miami, Florida.

Yeah, right.

Totally.

In the 30s, yeah.

Just horrible.

So maybe find a photo and even go downtown and take a picture of Flying M Coffee House, something that's familiar to folks, whether they love it or hate it, showing this is in our downtown.

This is something that's relevant.

And we'll talk with Derek about the building that he has and get permission to put that in the document because that would be the best one for uh streamlined modern because it everybody's gonna know what it is.

Thank you.

Okay, so I we have a question.

Yes, please.

Thank you, Mayor.

Can you remind me why Lloyd Square did not make it into that historical district?

I'm gonna let him answer that because I don't know that answer.

Uh so Lloyd Square, um, part of the feasibility study was to um provide an opportunity for redevelopment and create the uh public plaza turning inward towards first tree.

Um, and so as a result, that parcel was identified as an area of opportunity for uh that additional density for the housing um housing units which are critical to create a um a robust 18-hour district, um and therefore that's why we put it in the CD.

So the long-term plan then for that space is to build on it, correct.

Okay, and just to be clear if anybody hasn't seen the feasibility study, the feasibility study actually doesn't get rid of Lloyd Square, it just brings it forward onto first.

So as opposed to it being in the back on front, it just moves it forward onto first and opens it up so it's right along the roadway and makes it a more usable space.

If you don't have a copy of it, I'm happy to email it to any of you.

Thank you.

It's actually uh been scheduled for our council agenda.

It has been postponed until I believe it's October 20th.

Yes.

So it hasn't been distributed as publicly yet.

Well, the NDC adopted that one, so the feasibility study in that one.

That's true.

I'm sorry.

Is public right now.

Yeah.

So we aren't getting rid of it, we're just shifting it to a more usable space.

We're actually we're, and I'm happy to give you the study, but it's we're increasing the size of Lloyd Square by about 20%.

20%?

You're getting more space, but we found a way to wrap a building around it.

So that way we're we're making it a plaza that's defined as opposed to defined by building as opposed to defined by roadway.

I don't know if I may outside the trick.

Thank you.

So even in all of these uh districts, um, we're yes, there will be development, but we also in the form-based code outline different types of open space.

Um and so open spacing of all kinds from uh BTZ pedestrian space um to pocket parks to parks and plazas is encouraged throughout the district.

Um so well beyond the CH uh we're encouraging in C D C11 um and so forth.

Um and then the big defining factor for CH was where is the highest concentration of historical buildings?

Um and so we wanted to really capture um the architectural styles that we just mentioned um and make sure the new development that goes up to these um historical buildings are compatible or at least somewhat consistent.

Um and so that's why we chose the district that we did.

There are historic buildings that are scattered throughout the rest of the district, uh, but we wanted to choose the highest concentration for that.

So the farmers market can still exist, it's just gonna be a little bit of a okay.

Thank you so much.

Yeah, mayor question um clarification.

So my mind's trying to track with you here, it's good, and Ben back to the conversations about like if a developer is to come in and do something at the plaza.

I get all these pictures, I get all the examples.

Um, but in my head, this is almost like restoring old.

If a new developer comes in, am I wrong in that they're probably gonna try to build glass and steel more modern?

Is that what you're saying would fall under this streamline modern?

I I see a new developer's gonna come in and do a plaza, and let's say it's apartment complexes and retail on the bottom and and so forth.

Isn't that gonna be more glass and steel?

Not necessarily, uh, and but it is a good question.

The purpose for form-based code is to regulate that type of item.

And the reason that form-based code is important is because we're not saying you can't have touches of steel in those areas, but you can't have it be only streamlined modern.

You can have elements of it, you can have styles of it, but we're encouraging you to have, especially if it's in the CH district, more brick, more architectural styles, more arched windows, more whatever it is.

And the form-based code is going to say we understand you want to put in a modern building, but we've already listed the types of materials you're really allowed to use.

So come to us with a package that shows that, and we can improve you and move you forward.

If not, we're gonna politely say, go back.

Um and form-based code even takes a little farther and says how much transparency, if ever transparency means how much window space you've got, how much area is brick, how much area is set off with other materials.

So it limits minimums and maximums for a lot of things that will happen in the downtown area.

Thank you for that.

My only fear would be when we say the go back, um, that means they're gonna go to the meridian or Caldwell or somewhere.

Um I think we need to have the flexibility of modern if it fits.

I agree we want to keep the historical value, but at some point, some developers are gonna want newer looking buildings.

And what I'll tell you is if you pay attention, uh the feasibility study is not in CH.

So I think staff would like to add something.

Um Doug, also let's go.

I'm gonna go with Cody.

Okay, and then we'll go to staff.

Okay.

So I missed the last meeting, so if this was mentioned before, I apologize, but with the new form-based code, how does our roles as a planning and zoning commission opposed to the design review committee uh change with the way this plays out?

Could should we all let staff answer that question?

Yes.

I think that might be good.

Rodney, go ahead and come forward.

Okay, and you can make your comment and ask answer the question.

Yeah, okay.

So the the first comment is that.

And this is Rodney Ashby.

Yeah, sorry, Rodney Ashby Planning Zoning Director.

Um the first comment is that the concern about pushing people away to other communities because of the strict um requirements that are current that are in code, um, is a situation where we are already in.

We are all the DH zone, downtown historic zone, is much bigger than the central historic sub district, right?

Right now.

So we are already pushing people away because of the I shouldn't say pushing away, but they're a lot of times they're looking at our downtown and saying this is too stringent for us.

We are on the outside of your main core where historic buildings are, and we're required to build a brick building and make it look historic, but it's on the very edge, right?

So this what this code does is restricts that to just a core area of our downtown, and saying, hey, when it's in this area, this specific area, then it needs to look that really historic style.

But then that opens up some opportunity for some other styles and other building materials in the rest of that district.

So it frankly it makes it more possible for us to have businesses come to our downtown.

The second question was about planning and zoning role versus design review.

An efficient process where the design is very clear to the applicant or the person coming to the downtown, and that staff is reviewing these, correct?

On a staff is primarily looking at these and saying, Do you meet these criteria?

Um, I believe we have like in the industrial design review, we have to go to a committee if there's a um if there's a problem with it, um, if they can't meet all the criteria very clearly, they can go to that design or to the uh design review committee.

Um but in this situation, it's primarily staff looking at at code and saying, do you meet it or do you not?

It's more efficient.

Thank you.

And the whole purpose behind it is developers hate red tape is not what they hate, they hate unknown.

They don't like be coming before boards that'll say we agree, but we don't agree, we kind of agree, or go change this.

The form-based code gives them that framework, and as long as they meet that framework, staff can say, yes, yes, yes, okay, you're good.

Thank you.

And it moves forward.

And then the last thing I'll add for planning a zoning, um there we're still having some uses that would require a conditional use permit.

So there would still be those requests to come before you.

But um, and and you know, you can mitigate some concerns through a conditional use permit, add conditions on that so that they meet uh a certain expectation, but most of the design review stuff is just handled by code and by staff review.

So one other um comment question.

I would be curious to know what percentage of Romanesque, Renaissance, neoclassical, how the percentages within that smaller historic district there is and which direction we are versus leaning to be.

Um, you know, just yesterday and the day before being in DC and looking at the history there, these old buildings, but the new and how they blend together so well.

Um, but there is a cost, and to Mitch's comment, I think it's a really good comment, but setting the standard for who we want to be.

But I think there's and hopefully I think the goal in the form-based code is that we have an ability to blend them together with some stylistic elements to help us go there.

But for example, when we just have these five up here, I think somewhere in our documentation, there should be the percentage of our downtown, because maybe there's one streamline modern there or two, but most of them are this, yet because it's there, I think that there I think there's another step that we need to look at when we look at this.

We can review the the documents and see what that percentage is.

I we don't know that off the top of our head, I'm sorry.

Um but I I understand what you're saying.

So you you if you have predominantly Romanesque and Renaissance revival, you want to focus more on Romanesque and Renaissance revival and less on streamlined modern.

Is that correct?

Possibly.

Okay, and I'm not saying yes or no.

I think that's a discussion that needs to be had so that the developers with the certainty that you're talking about, because if they see, okay, I could go here, but then somebody says, well, no, mostly we have this.

I think that we need to be mindful of that.

So it might be a discussion that we need to have at some point of what percentage of that, are we looking to stay real consistent?

Are we looking to mix it up?

I think there's more discussion to be had around it.

Okay.

Yeah.

Whenever that is.

Let us find the numbers on that before we have that discussion.

Because I'd like to go into that with some more information.

Yeah.

Yes.

Uh just a quick question.

If you were a developer coming into the market and you saw the library sitting on the corner in downtown, what architectural style would you call that?

Randy, we both know the qu the answer to that isn't not just one.

Right.

And that's the problem.

It is.

You're gonna have someone come in with an idea of what they would like to build with uh a desire to fit in, but maybe with uh the standard that they have built elsewhere, and whether it's a high tech, whether it's a biotech, whether it's it might be something altogether different than what we've seen, but they're willing to bring into the market something truly special in the downtown um hotel with you know certain characteristics.

Um we say to them, no, you can't use uh something, and they're looking at the library saying, why did you allow that to be your standard?

Because the rhythm and flow of that building is meant to match in with architectural finishes and maybe articulation of wall planes and and glazing and such, but um what do you tell them?

So I think the way we go about that is to say uh we hear you and we understand that, but if you're I mean if you're not gonna match the form-based code, there's no one saying you can't go to design review and request to have a special change.

There's no one saying you can't do that.

So would that be a variance then?

Yes.

Okay, so that would come back to council.

Correct.

So let's say somebody wanted to put up a brand new all steel, all glass skyscraper, and every staff said no.

And everybody else said no, but if council says yes, then that's kind of the way this goes.

Rodney?

Rodney.

Yeah.

You're waiting for it to turn on.

Yeah.

Here.

You come up here and use this one.

Yeah.

I don't think it's appropriate for a downtown.

So we have to be careful when we describe it as a variant.

It's an exception.

It's just like just like outlining the industrial design review standards, we're committed or uh greater review uh they change what staff is trying to what the code says, we have to write that through the code.

So I just want to make it sure that it's actually people agree when we say that yes, and people tend to understand what the word variants but Rodney's for is an exception based on the way the terminology of the state is thinking.

So just a suggestion I'd make instead of listing neoclassical, I'd list classical or neoclassical.

So that that opens up that that avenue or that lane a little bit more.

Uh instead of streamlined modern, you might uh put art nouveau or modern, uh, which opens things up and then maybe even add a minimalist style.

So you have uh different types of characters that that are more based upon traditional uh characteristics of rhythm and flow um and such.

And counselor I don't think you're pause one second.

I don't think your mic's on.

Okay, let's try it.

It's blinking, which means it's connecting, so we'll just it's thinking that's the way that works.

I can't hear them.

We're we're just changing the mic out.

Oh, okay, thank you.

My question or a point uh suggestion, uh instead of just neoclassical, I would uh add classical as well as neoclassical, so that opens that uh up.

And uh, and then the streamline moderne uh Art Nouveau is more of a standard that I've I'm used to, uh, and it's slash modern without the E on the end.

Yes.

Um and the only councilman Haverfield, I I know um the reason some of this modernism isn't there is because it's that's streamlined modern is what's National Park Service designation.

If we can do art nouveau, that clarifies it even better, and that's great.

And it that's but if they don't like just use the words modern because it's a wide range of many things.

And then uh when I was on design review when we uh had the library come through, obviously there was an interest in having a library in downtown.

So uh the developer brought forward um the suggestion or basically of of what they provided to us, uh stating that it met the rhythm and flow of what the downtown is.

That was kind of their approach, but it was more of a of a tech type building, technical building.

Uh, but uh something that's an adherence to the principles of proportionality and harmony is what I had written down.

Um so yeah, uh what I've seen come before arts and historic preservation in the past is a lack of of even proportionality and using the the simplified forms that a minimalist approach would provide, just in by definition.

So if that was listed in there to give some uh some flexibility but meet to the the you know some boundaries that they could work with and they could come back and and provide something that then could be reviewed uh because they have looked at a style that uh is intended to be that way.

So that's all I was trying to say.

Yeah, we're happy to can we do a quick uh time check, and then we'll come to you, Doug.

So we do not have the second section of this meeting, but um so are we about halfway through?

Are we quoting?

We're a little more than halfway through.

A little more than halfway through, okay, and we do not have another agenda item.

Hopefully, many can stay, you know, quite a bit longer to where we can keep going.

Just wanted to do a quick check.

Okay.

And Doug, you have to and Doug, did you have do you have a quite you can I uh I uh I just wanted to respond to Councilmember Haverfield and maybe some of the things we talked about in terms of exceptions, um and and maybe we can address this, but um seems to me that the library is one of these instances where there's a there's a function that was determining somewhat the form that came out of that building, and and then you were talking speaking to styling and so forth.

But I think that we need to have some ability uh in these uh buildings to be able to design to function as well, um, considering the form the styling that we're talking about, but we need to we need to address that.

So I I thought maybe that was speaking to what you were talking about.

Well, yeah, architecture reform does follow function, yeah, but that's a prairie style, so you gotta be careful.

Right.

Uh yeah, that's where it began.

But yeah, I think we're on the right track.

I think we just need to broaden a little bit um what we're looking at or uh allow there to be the interface back and forth as a developer comes in with a concept and how we can uh work with them, uh provide solutions instead of impediments to the process.

Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, thank you.

No issue with that whatsoever.

Uh we we'll work that in.

Um, so let's move on to how the districts are used.

So you what you see in front of you is a use chart.

Uh the use chart has residential hospitality, residential care, public, all these uses.

Uh U is a P is permitted, U is permitted on the upper stories only, N is not permitted, and C is conditional use.

So we kind of broke them by district.

You can see the way these are set up.

Uh a lot of residential in the CH district is upper floor only.

So we're saying please don't put your residence in a historic building in the retail space.

Please put a retail facility in the retail space.

Uh upper floor in the C D district, and then uh permitted in C1116 and CR for residential on the first floor.

So again, preserving the core, keeping retail and commercial on the first floor, but allowing for residential above, and as you go out, we're allowing residential to be on the first floor as you get towards neighborhoods because that's what is already there.

So we took the idea of having historic core and then buffering it and matching it until you get to the neighboring land uses in the next districts over.

Um this is a so this is a meeting almost in and of itself.

We spent an entire, and this is good grief many years, four years, five years ago, talking about quote zoning and downtown.

Um I think we could spend quite a bit of time on this.

So like assembly, public private.

One of the things we've talked about is not having event space in that core downtown area that would allow it.

Correct?

So that's a discussion in and of itself.

So this goes back to my earlier question.

The decisions that are being made here.

Are they lasting?

Are these permanent?

Because these are these are big decisions.

This is not just a quick, we're gonna look at this and say, oh, yeah, that's good, and then we just changed our zoning to say event space is allowed in the downtown core.

Sure.

Because I think we've had discussions that maybe we don't want event space because it isn't the highest and best utilization.

Let's we're gonna address that type of detail in just a minute.

Okay, perfect.

Thank you.

I'm sorry, I have ahead.

Let's uh hold off.

But the big thing here is these are things that are allowed to say.

We're trying to not regulate by land use to say you're only allowed to do this in this district.

Form-based code says we're allowing a little flexibility, but you have to think vertically as you do it.

So we want retail, but you can definitely do residential above it.

We want to have more commercial, but and if you want to go office above it, that's fine too.

We're just trying to give a little more flexibility in that use as opposed to saying only retail.

Thank you.

If I may add some so it's also important when thinking about uses, it's important to remember that we're regulating this in the back end.

Um so right, we're talking about form first.

Um, and so we have those in the last meeting.

We went over building types, um, a bunch of other form regulations.

Um, and so the really the frontage types, um, the form districts uh are regulating first, uh followed by those building types, followed by a few other standards and then uses.

Um, and so while one use may be regulated or allowed in the whole district, it may only be allowed on tertiary frontages, and it may only be allowed in civic buildings, whereas um, and this is all in the form-based code, which uh y'all have a copy of, and you're welcome to mark up.

We want your markups um and what we want your feedback.

Um we're still working through the draft of that, uh, but this isn't a set that this is allowed uniformly throughout the entire district.

So, and I know where the reason these are coming up is because you're more worried about what type of businesses are gonna be there, and we're gonna talk about that specifically.

So to continue the land use table.

Again, we have a little more things here office, professional craftsman, art galleries.

The one thing that I we put an N on across the board is drive-throughs, just so you're aware.

In those districts, drive-throughs are a no across the board.

That's the only thing that is a no across the board.

Um, and it just doesn't fit the character of a downtown.

You'd uh with the size of the lots, you'd lose a lot of space to get an 18-foot drive lane for a drive-thru going through somewhere.

You'd actually have a bunch of containers.

Uh so uh again, continuing this effort, and what I think we really want to get to is this one.

So these are the retail uses or building uses, what is allowed, what is not allowed, and what's by conditional permit use only.

So to get back to the no event spaces, this is where we would start having more discussion about event spaces is by conditional use permit only.

Hair salons are by conditional use permit only.

Things are of that nature.

I know, I know.

So we have all these items that are here for you, and we're gonna we're gonna do a little exercise with you a little later, but we're not gonna do it right now.

Um we're going to ask you what you want to be allowed and what you want conditional use permit only later in in about 10 minutes.

So we just wanted to go through these.

What we've already heard as conditional use only is alcohol liquor sales, retail tobacco, wine, and barbershops, and microbreweries with retail with a retail element.

Those are the ones that have been listed as conditional use permit only.

And again, we're asking for your feedback on these.

Please tell us if there's other changes, but we're gonna go through that as the part of the exercise.

If we we can add event space in there, we can do other things to it.

So that's when we can bring up those types of items.

Um regulating form-based code does not regulate the the building by the use, it regulates the building form, and then you determine what uses are allowed to go in it.

So let's talk about your packets.

We got there a little quicker.

So we've got a couple of things for you.

So your CH district.

This is where we are going to ask for your feedback.

You've got can you pull up this document?

Um while he pulls that up and it's his computer.

I don't know where it's at.

We need to have the standards on the screen.

Okay.

Um because they're gonna check it.

Okay.

There don't pull it out.

There, don't pull it out if it keeps turning off.

Oh.

Sorry.

Do we have a second mic?

We can't.

That's why I said don't pull up.

We don't have two mics.

Is it still on?

Okay.

So you just pull this up anyway, so we can we'll talk through the first few sheets.

Um what we're going to talk through is your CH district.

Your CH district here has information about it, and it tells you where it's allowed, primary frontage and street types.

It tells you about the building style.

So what how far back it is, what the stepbacks are, what your build-to zones are.

And we have a couple of questions down here.

One, two, and three.

Do you agree with the required styles?

Yes.

Do not, somewhat do not, neutral, somewhat do, some might or definitely do agree.

The second question is architectural features.

Do you agree with the architectural features?

And the third one is development standards, which are going to be option number or what's in number three right here.

So as he pulls this up.

So it's free.

No, we're not there yet.

We're here.

Um the the first thing we're gonna cover is the CH district.

And keep in mind this is the historic district.

This is where you have the most historically accurate and I'm gonna say intact buildings.

As you go out of this district, things have been changed and altered many, many times.

Not that that's a bad thing, but they don't necessarily have the same characteristics and historical elements preserved as this area does.

So we'll ask you the questions about one, two, and three, and the numbers kind of associate.

We'll give you a minute or two to review it.

Uh required architectural styles.

Again, Romanesque, Renaissance Revival, Neoclassical, Art Deco, and Streamline Modern.

If you agree with those, please do.

I strongly support somewhat and check the box there and tell us what you agree or do not agree with.

Mayor?

Yes.

Question?

Yes.

You've done this a long time.

This is your profession.

Do you see that these five architectural styles are enough to encompass and drive um development within the market?

Or is this too refined that it hinders the opportunity?

Because I agree with Mitch on this issue.

Let the market drive.

If somebody wants to be able to expand within an area and the lower levels brick, and they can somehow tie in modernization when they go and scale up.

That's what I would be for.

So if it's limiting this, and this is an expensive material and it's uh very tough to design or or get approved.

Uh my goals to unleash the market in downtown.

So I I lean to, I don't want to support the the requirement of strict architectural styles.

Understanding that we're trying to preserve historic nature.

We've tried to do that for many years, and it's affected us negatively.

Yeah.

And I mean, professional opinion, so take with a grain of salt as you will.

These five characteristics or architectural styles have a wide variety of things you can and can't do with expensive and cheap materials.

So you don't only have to use brick.

You don't only have to use stone.

You can keep the styles of these buildings without using the expensive materials.

Um, and by adding in Art Deco and Modern, you do open up all those things you're talking about.

So you could have a developer come in and say, We're we want to put in a five-story building.

I'm not saying they will, so don't shoot me off the podium.

Um, but we we want to put in a five-story building, but since we go over two, we have to do a step back.

But the first two floors are gonna look renaissance revival with brick, and then after that, we're gonna go art deco on the top three stories.

There's nothing that says they can't do that.

So they're doing their expensive materials on the first two floors and going cheaper as you go on the other floors above it.

So to summarize, this is enough to encompass everything it needs to.

The reason the National Park Service hates the term modern is because there is not a good definition of modern.

Um you could do a lot of things in modern.

So any questions on that uh for question number one on the sheet.

Okay.

Question number two.

As far as massings and styles, as you can see at the pictures, you've got a lot of aluminum framed windows, uh metal framed windows, you have a lot of historic windows with arches and styles.

You have flat roofs, and you do have some sloped roofs, you've got materials that are predominantly brick or long life materials such as stone, um Art Deco and Streamline Modern do typically have some stucco in involved in them, but not as their primary element.

Uh, and facade details.

If you agree with those pictures, those styles, would we ask you to do the same thing on a gauge of I support to I strongly oppose?

And it it's I understand there the issue that we have with these um the material choice is coming down to phrase that.

The material selection defines the character of your downtown more than the style and massing of the building most of the time.

So the material choice is the really important element.

So the same.

Oh, I apologize, Mayor.

Go ahead.

That's why I was just gonna say, are you asking us to put it on here and hand it to you?

Or are you looking for discussion?

Where are you going right now?

You can do either one.

Uh we we're gonna collect these sheets back at the end.

So please, if nothing else, check a box so we get agree or don't agree.

But um, you we're open to discussion at this point as well.

Okay, and Sebastian.

The same question, and uh every time we go through one of these things, if you could cue me up rather than me flipping on my light and saying it again.

Will this hinder or help the market?

This will help the market because you what you're saying is the developers, we have a set of standards, and you're gonna spend less time arguing with them about finished rod and details, and saying if you're not going to meet our standards as a community that we've defined as our character elements, you we may not be the right community for you.

And we're not saying we don't want you, we're saying if you want to be here, we have a set standard that you need to come to us with.

And we're not defining or setting those standards right now, we're just saying we're willing to put those standards in code.

Correct.

Thank you.

So thank you.

Uh third one, development standards.

Again, 10 foot to 15 foot.

So 10 foot off of the sidewalk and 15 foot off the sidewalk.

Minimum 10, maximum 15.

Agree, don't agree.

Somewhere in the middle.

Uh, and if you don't like any of those answers, just write on the paper.

And it's not going to change the way a developer does it.

Uh, actually, a lot of developers will come in lately and say, can we set the building back?

We want the first floor to have a restaurant and they need a patio.

And we're giving them a little flexibility there to do those types of items.

And that's along major and minor arterials.

Um, the as we discussed, the other roads that are not major and minor arterials have the uh the zero to five.

Okay.

Yes, please.

I think I have a requisition order for the city, more microphones.

I'm not sure.

And we have we have more.

Are the ones over there not working?

They're not working.

Okay, so I'm gonna make sure that these get fixed and that we have microphones.

So um I I just want to make sure we're all on the same page with Councilman Griffin's question about are we deciding that uh I believe what I'm hearing from you is we are deciding that these things on the on this page are relate to the central historic district.

Yes, the requirements of the central historic district.

So I it's not that it's wide open and we're gonna talk about it at a later date.

It's these are the requirements, and we're checking if we strongly agree with what the requirements are shown on this screen.

Correct.

Is that correct?

That's exactly correct, yes.

Okay.

And the one thing I'll tell you is um where this is gonna get funky is when you have a nationally or independently designated building.

All bets are off because they're gonna want you to do exactly what the building was and replicate exactly what the building was.

And so, and I was kind of that was where I was going a little bit.

I wanted to speak to the particular market conditions, and make sure that when we're thinking about this, because right now we hear downtown and we think about our old DH district, it's the entire downtown.

When we are talking about these incredibly strict, our highest standard, the properties that we're really looking at here are that really core districts.

So we're going from the depot up to first street, and just that kind of that first street corridor.

We're not talking about the bigger downtown.

Um, and when you think about this, try and orient yourself in that space.

That's on our side from the economic development perspective, the unleashing the market potential is why this form-based code is so important.

The strict standards are the orange piece.

And as we move further into the exercise and we talk about the bigger grander downtown as you would perceive it, that's when these required turn into recommends and it allows the developers to come in and be a little more creative and maybe put together projects that are easier to make pencil.

So let's let's move to that one then.

So as you can see, the next one, which is C D, C11, C16, and CR.

If you'll notice everything went from required to recommend.

We want to be most strict in the required areas, because that's your architectural historic character district.

As you get out of that very fine district, things are no longer necessarily absolutely required to be that specific item.

So we're saying if you want to put in a seven-story streamlined modern building, please do it in C D C11, C16 or CR.

We're not saying in the historic core, we're saying please put it somewhere outside of the historic core.

But we are allowing that flexibility for developers to come in and do that.

We just want to be a little more choosy per se as to it's not in those three or four blocks.

Do we have a go ahead?

Yes, Mary Dean.

Yeah, there you go.

It's got to be green.

This is off topic, but I need to clarify something for myself.

So form-based code means that it doesn't go to any committee if it's approved by staff.

Is that correct?

So any staff member, if they meet these things that we're doing in form-based code, could say yes, you can build this building, and it doesn't go any further.

And I mean, if you want to answer, you can, but the the general answer is as long as they meet the form-based code, then yes.

And it's not we're not trying to say you guys don't have power, we're saying it if they meet the standards, why does it need to go to a group to vote on it?

So the broadness of it, how do we bring that down to enough to make sure because it is very broad.

So how do you make sure that it does end up cohesive if different staff members are approving different buildings and nobody's looking at it till it's built?

Yeah, that's a great point.

Um, so the architectural features are really spelled out and defined and um get into the nitty-gritty of how these architectural styles are implemented.

Um, and so under each architectural style, there are defining characteristics uh for roof style, for materials, etc.

Um, and so that's all laid out as to how they would judge a building by its application.

Um, and so there's there's still going to be some subjectivity, always is in language, um, but generally we're trying to get to a point where um the standards are pretty clear.

Um, and so then once the what's defined in code um as the shells um are met, then it's a buy-right administrative approval.

Okay, and is it planned basic?

So, like you're not gonna put a streamline modern next to a Romanesque.

I mean, is there gonna be some sort of guidelines for that?

In the CH, uh, there is no um, it's as long as they meet these five, and that's why we're asking these questions.

As long as they meet these five, they can build any of these in the CH.

Now, if you want to say that there's no streamline modern um in the CH, then that's um that's the power of the group.

I mean, they just look very different to be next to each other.

Sure.

Um, I mean, one of the feedback items we heard is that there's we're not trying to create exact buildings next to each other, um, but rather a cohesive look.

Um, and so if we have a mix of everything, um, as long as it's not necessarily right next to each other, that generally the CH has a cohesive feel.

So to kind of address that a little bit more, the way count or the way staff are gonna do this is there are very specific massings, roof styles, window styles.

Form-based code takes this review as more of a checklist of meet or did not meet, if that makes more sense to explain it that way.

So when review when council when it comes to you guys, it would be uh we want to push back a little bit.

Now, staff is gonna say it met or it did not meet, and if it meet, meet, meet, meet the whole way down, then they met the requirements of the form-based code.

But does council even get to see it if they meet them?

So there, I mean, their council's gonna get all the information either way.

That's but planning commission will get it if there's something that they don't meet and they want to push back on.

Council council sees it, yes.

So okay, so we have okay.

Councilman Howard and Councilman Turner.

I'll give this to you.

So uh I don't think the intent is the design review commission is cut out of the process.

They're still reviewing from an architectural standpoint to answer your question.

And they're a recommending body still, right?

Um they're a final uh approval body as far as on the design side, so unless it's kicked up to the uh as an appeal to city council, city council wouldn't be reviewing design criteria, but the form base approach just sets the articulation of of the building itself, the finishes, the architectural style fall into a little bit different category that is reviewed by design review and Tom.

Um I just had a concern on 11th south of third, and what's gonna be limited in there because eventually that is going to get or is hopefully we'll get turned into a north-south east-west, whatever corridor.

Um because we aren't sitting square to the world there, but do we want to be careful with calling that um stuff when I make it the residential district and not allowing businesses on 11th if that gets pushed through, or do we worry about changing the zoning at that time?

I think it's a good question.

So who's gonna answer that?

We were talking about 11th and third, and I don't know if you heard the question about would you do you mind?

I'll let Tom.

You can repeat it, I'd appreciate that.

Okay, so 11th is right now and 12th are gonna be converted back to two ways.

Correct.

And a little and there's a lot of different ideas on the drawing board to take 11th down farther south as a major arterial.

So I was just concerned with limiting what could go in that residential blue district.

Do we worry about that now, or if eventually a thoroughfare comes through and we change the zoning at that time?

I I'm just thinking if somebody builds something now and in 15 years we get the tax base to do something with that.

Do we make them tear it down?

Yeah, I mean a city will always be dynamic, and so things will always be changing.

Um and so I wouldn't dwell on the what ifs, um, but rather like the things that are certain.

Um, and so there are certain things that are definitely going to happen.

We can alter that now.

Um, but as for future changes and future development, um, if there's a change that comes into place and you identify, hey, we need to make this a primary frontage instead of a secondary frontage or a tertiary, whatever it may be.

Um, that can that change can always be happened.

This is like with code, like with development, nothing's set in stone, and um and so the city is just uh a granular thing that takes place over time.

Um if I can say something though, real quickly.

What Tom, what you just shared is a very good point.

The reason is it is in the plan.

It isn't that it isn't planned, it is planned.

And so I think your point is do we need to take that into consideration because it is on the books, it is a plan in place, it's just not funded.

And so um I think it's a very good point, and I think with staff uh between working with streets, and this is an internal thing.

I think we need to catch that, and thank you for bringing it up.

I think it's a good catch and it's important catch.

And because it is in the plan, we need to make sure.

Yeah, what we'll do is we'll work with staff in what it may change is the frontage and the roadway classification, if that's going to go from one way to two way and become a major arterial, but we'll work with staff and we'll get that figured out.

Yeah, and I I was just concerned because there's a lot of older homes in there, you know, smaller older homes, and with it being on the plan, somebody may come in and want to try to do something there, and if we limit it now, it may stop them from doing what they want to do to be prepared for when that does get put in.

So that was my concern.

So and again, I think what will may happen will be the frontage type may change and the street type may change.

And what that will mean is it does change what's allowed, but it's we'll we'll address that with city staff.

We'll look at the plan and we'll we'll address that.

Thank you.

Before we move forward, is there any other questions?

Quick question for you.

Um in the CR, we're we are talking about the CR zone at this time.

Is that correct?

One of them, that's one of the right.

Uh where there is more residential development that could happen.

Um would added architectural styles be more um open.

We should be looking at that to Tom's point as far as on craftsman style and untraditional styles of architectural in those areas.

Should we add that in at this point or add it in at another time?

I think that's a that's a great point.

It is a good point.

Uh yeah, and I think the way we should address it now, and I'm I'll speak and then the city staff can do what they can uh as an example.

We should look at what the historic district plans have, and then we can try and add more into that district.

But right now, that these were the items that were have been pulled out of those plans.

Now I agree with you.

You have craftsmen, you've got bungalow.

There's even some prairie mixed in there.

Um we need to have things that would match that.

And if we need to add them, now is the time before we get much farther.

So, but we can do that once we look at the plans and get that going.

Um thank you, Councilman Haverfield.

That is a great catch.

Um, we are going through that old town Nampa process right now.

So we have drafts of that that documentation, and we can go through because I agree with you.

There's Craftsman, there's Queen Anne.

We have established definitions in that in that draft documentation for the old town district that we can go ahead and pull out and incorporate.

Okay, the goal then would be to link those together from the plan that it is to the form-based code and say if you're going to build single family standalone residential, let's pick from some of these styles.

A mixture of, yeah, it could even be uh higher density housing that would follow that architectural style.

That's what I was just gonna mention is should we possibly take out along 11 on both sides south of third and work on that separately, have its own little district for eventually.

So if it does become a thoroughfare and somebody wants to build an apartment building and take out three of the old houses and build an apartment building, we'd allow that.

So, you know, I I know that you guys have been working hard on this, but I I'm just looking down the road, and if we turn if we limit it now, we could limit ourselves in the future, and if that becomes a thoroughfare, you know if a developer wants to come in and buy all the old houses down one block and turn it into multifamily, you know.

At this point, I think we're restricting that out of there.

And I so I think if we just took, I don't remember if there's alleys there or not on each side of 11th, but if you know, if there are, go back to the alleys from 11th, or at least the first block, the first parcels along 11th on both sides, just to pull those out in case down the road.

I I don't know, just a thought, but I'm just trying to keep us from limiting it and then pickle down the road.

To answer your question, by adding some of those other character elements like a Queen Anne, you could make a really nice two or three-story Queen Anne looking apartment building by adding those in there into these items that are in now a recommendation district, not a required district, they have more flexibility to pick those items, if that helps you understand that.

Thank you for the explaining that.

One more yes.

I may not have been paying attention good enough.

I'm sorry, but wasn't there a difference between the setbacks between the historic and the non-historic?

But it says the same on our paper.

So these stepbacks and setbacks don't vary by district, those vary by um, so for the setbacks, which are the distance from the property line, those vary by street type, which are the major and minor arterials, have that 10 to 15 versus the other road types have zero to five.

Um, and then for step backs, which is that tiering, that tiered approach to the building as it approaches um the roadway, um, that is 10 to 15 feet above or above 30 feet um in elevation, or excuse me, 10 to 15 feet above 30 feet or two stories, whichever is less um for the primary frontages.

Um, and I just wanted to make a point to the CR.

So general building types, which would be more like multi-family, um, those are allowed in the CR, um, especially along uh primary frontages.

So if if we change um 11th to be um a primary frontage, um then that would alleviate your concern, I believe.

And it and the style is if we add more styles to it, you would have a little more variety as to what they would look like, potentially even matching the architectural styles of the homes that would go away.

So um Steph would like me, and I would like you for you to uh take a look at this.

Um you should have received a draft of the form-based code, still current currently a work in progress, uh, but it is a solid draft.

Um, we want your feedback um so that we can uh stick on the timeline.

Um, and so we're hoping to have your comments, I believe, by October 1st.

Is that right?

Yeah, get your coffee ready and read it, readable.

So there's quite a lot of content here.

If you want to talk team it with people and say you look at this section and you look, I look at this section, so it's a little bit more um digestible.

Um, that's perfectly fine with us.

Uh, but the more feedback that we have the better.

And with if staff could resend the link with an email, give it reminding everyone of the deadline of what you're looking for us to do.

Absolutely.

We will thank you.

And I just wanted to emphasize this is double-sided paper, right?

So there is a lot of content when we're talking about concerns about hey, how is staff going to interpret it?

It's this, you know.

There's a ton of documentation here for us to clearly define what each of these architectural styles, what what the materials are supposed to be.

There's a lot of content.

And we're working through this as well as staff.

We're going through this in fine detail to make sure that we're covering that.

So it's we're trying to minimize as much as possible the interpretation.

And yeah, and I'll send that by email.

Do you want me to print it?

Yeah, we'll have a hard copy for you and bring it over to you.

And what I will also say is if there's questions as a consultant uh staff, we're happy to get on a Zoom with you or have a phone call.

If you have concerns about certain things and you need explanations or it's not making sense, just reach out.

We're happy to have that discussion with you.

Thank you.

And I'd like to ask if there are other members of planning and zoning in a DC that would like a hard copy provided to you.

Would you get with staff?

Um, so that we will provide those to you because you may not have an easy color printer at home.

So please let staff know and we'll make sure you get it.

You know, one comment that was made um was that this is really complicated.

It is, it's very complicated.

And um, you know, one thought is I don't know how many people are gonna read every page and go through every bit of this.

It would be helpful when you send the email with the link again to maybe say, would you focus in these areas?

These are the areas that we really need you to focus and provide feedback on.

I because I for me, as I'm listening today, I feel like there were, for example, are we gonna use those five styles that look like that?

Because I'm thinking, I don't want our downtown to look like the streamline modern, or however you say it correctly.

Um that's not who our downtown is, but it's up there.

It is and so to me, that's a big thing.

There are a few other things that are big things, but somebody here may not agree with me on that.

Um, they may say, hey, I like that, and we want it.

That's why we want to collect these sheets back.

So I'm gonna plug again before Rodney.

Please fill in the sheets.

If you don't agree with those styles, now is the time to step up and say, exit out, don't like it, strongly opposed.

Just tell us.

And if you want to suggest an alternative style as Councilmember Hoverfield did um, please write it down in the additional comments.

So um, I'll add it.

Um, and in the one, two, and three, it's just strongly support someone's support.

So I understand that it doesn't give you space for um that clarification on oh, I like this style, but I don't like this style, and I'd like to see this style added.

That's what that space in the bottom is for.

If you want to get kind of old school smiley face or an X, just give us whatever works, we'll interpret it.

And Rodney.

Rodney.

And I just I just want to kind of reiterate what you just said.

That the things that we need you to focus on are the things we just talked about, right?

These are the primary things.

If you have questions about it, you can dig into the details in the code, but these are it, right?

We want to make sure that the architectural styles are there, the the features, uh, the stepbacks, the setbacks, and the districts are the correct thing.

We talked about 11th, um, continue on on through.

That was a really good comment.

We need to look at that.

And we could even extend the um the subdistrict to what is it, C11, just down a little farther to make sure that uh that we've captured that.

So those are really good comments, they're high-level enough to where we can go back as staff and with our consultant and say, okay, let's take a look at this and see how we can address what the council commissioners and um the NDC has has concerns about.

So I just wanted to get re-emphasize that these are the topics that are primary for you to review.

Thank you, Rodney.

Wendy.

Mayor, I wanted to address the streamlined modern modern.

Yeah, you can say modern.

Modern.

Um I think that was my biggest question, and I asked kind of privately what is an example downtown back to Councilman Griffin's comments, it would be helpful to have like pictures of our buildings up there.

But I understand that's one of Derek Cooper's styles that he has downtown.

And I don't see that anywhere downtown, so it falls within that.

So it falls within that.

So I mean, he he's done a great job.

Yes.

Okay, Morgan, go ahead.

Sorry to interrupt you, Commissioner Rhodes, but I did kind of enlisting this conversation.

We're talking about sending out the link.

If you would like, we can go through and layer some NAMPA examples and then maybe pick out some other of our like the buildings that you're gonna know and recognize and how they fit into those architectural styles.

And I can probably go back through the some of the park service resources and see if we can find an architectural character explainer with those summaries in it, because while those materials and window types and all of that is included in that code document, it is buried and it is very, very technical.

It is that way on purpose because we want to be very prescriptive when we're talking to the developers and the architects, we want to let them know exactly what we mean.

That's how we get out of the space we're currently in with these subjective decisions that are causing so many problems for redevelopment.

But understanding like this group and audience, you don't necessarily want to go through and read details about what percentage of the frontage needs to be windows.

We there's good summary documents that can cover that.

I I was serious when I said get a cup of coffee.

It is it's a very technical document, it's meant to be that way.

So staff can say we'll do the calculation, we looked at the plans, you meet or you don't need.

Yes.

So just just uh high level looking at this and uh the book you held up up there.

This needs to be clear, concise, short document, not a long document.

This isn't development friendly at all, in my opinion.

If we have to have a team of attorneys to develop downtown, we're doing something wrong.

We're not the first city to do this, so can we take a model of other cities around us and that have done it and uh condense it and have it clear and concise and simple?

That's my comment.

Yeah, and we'll we'll take that into account.

Um, you this document's actually about a hundred pages shorter than most of the other ones, um, which doesn't say a lot because a lot of plans are far too long, but we'll we'll see where we can cut out of it.

And there might be a way that we could do like an executive summary or some kind of a document up front that just succinctly says everything that's in the back end, and it'll say window transparency must be 65% of the frontage.

If you have questions, go to this page.

That that way the developer can go, oh, I need to have more retail windows, or can I fight it?

And they can go to a different page and get more detail.

Councilman Griffin.

I just my question is going to be what other city has a similar form-based code as what's being proposed here.

Obviously, I think these projects are going to be multi-multi-million dollar investments anyway.

So they're gonna probably have a fleet of attorneys.

This isn't going to be a small, small time developer coming in to do these projects.

They're gonna be headquartered in Salt Lake or wherever else.

You got a lot of attorneys and boys.

I'm not gonna argue.

No, I'm I'm not the attorneys, but maybe the architectural firms or something that's done this in more urban areas that hope to expand here in Nampa.

Yeah, I do want to add, I I definitely hear your concerns about it being a lengthy document.

Um, on the flip side, uh, by having such prescriptive and clear language, uh, we are reducing the ambiguity, which reduces the needs for lawyers.

Um so we're we're trying to be conscious of the length and make sure that we're being concise and to the point while also making sure that our standards are clear, um, that there's no ambiguity um that staff can use this as clear code language, um, that it's either the shell or they don't have to, um, and then they can use it as a to the point checklist on what needs to be done.

Follow up to your question though.

So this uh I mean, a lot of communities, Boise has one that's very similar.

This is very similar to a lot of them in the Salt Lake area as well.

So Murray, um, this is also in Logan in Cache Valley.

There's a lot of them that are very similar to this.

They're all in a similar situation, two, three four-story buildings within a metro of an urban area or within the Metroplex, whatever you want to call it, and trying to preserve their character, but also not lose their architectural integrity.

So there's a lot of them around that use a similar format.

Um and we'll work on an executive summary that will make this more friendly up front.

Uh and if we if everybody's okay with it, we'll bring that back next time with something that'll have items and highlights about windows and then a link to take you to the document with windows.

Uh something about uh facade styles and then a link to take you to that section of the document.

So there there'll be a very succinct list, and then if you want more details, there'll be a link to get the more details.

Yeah, and for me at least, I'm more concerned about what industry standard is and what's going to be most familiar to those that have done these projects in other cities.

So rather than reinventing a wheel, maybe allowing the wheel to keep keep moving forward.

So frontage and roadway types is becoming the industry standard for how you manage form-based code because it allows more flexibility to for those developers to build things and it allows them, and just to be I mean transparent, if you tell them this is a primary frontage, we want your most effort and most dollars spent on this frontage because this is where people are coming in.

It allows them to have a little less emphasis on the other sides of the building that they don't want to spend as much money on.

And that's where developers really like to kind of play with the form-based code and say we met the frontage, but these aren't on a primary frontage, they're secondary or tertiary, so we're not worried about those as much.

Um district uses and mayor, this is where a lot of these items are gonna come up.

This is the table all pulled together.

Um and I'm gonna ask staff if we give them a day or two to get these to you, can you scan them to us?

Okay.

We'll give you guys a little bit of time to review these packets in a little more detail.

Um, and we would ask you to get them back to us.

If you can see, we've got um a couple of items here.

So if you want to allow them to be permitted or you want to change something, we have what it currently is.

So let's take residential in the CHU is says upper story only.

If you want to say not allowed, in the white box, you would put an N.

And we're gonna ask you to go through, and if you don't want to make any changes, you don't have to write anything down.

This is a this is a document you're gonna spend some time with.

So I want you to think through this a little bit.

And if you can get it to city staff, I'm gonna say Monday.

Um, even if you just take a picture and send it to us by email, that's good enough.

We just want you guys to spend time thinking through this instead of trying to act on the fly with it.

You've been trying to acceptable.

Yeah, that's fine too.

And for you and staff as well.

Obviously, you put a lot of time into this.

Um I just go back to we've tried for a long time doing it internally, that's why it's been hired out.

This is why we're making these changes.

Are these the best recommendations that you feel I'm gonna go through it, but I'm gonna save myself some time knowing that I'm not an expert on this.

I liked going through the actual specific uses and saying what should be a conditional use permit, because I think there's local values that are instilled.

Is why we're skipping over this one.

Thank you.

Um, so this one, this is what we're giving you is our recommendation.

You may not agree with all of it, and that's why we're we're saying please give us your feedback.

But this is our recommendation for how you should manage it.

General rule in a downtown, retail or non-residential on the first floor in a historic district or an area that you want to be a commercial hub facility.

Outside of that, it opens the ball game a little more.

But where a lot of people really struggle with downtown codes, especially Euclidean zoning, is they don't go vertical.

So having some kind of a mixed-use building really plays to form-based code.

So that's why we said we left it with yes, residential, but only on upper in certain areas.

So we gave you the opportunity.

If you say, look, I want residential everywhere, that's fine.

That's your opinion, and we're gonna weigh it all together.

And we just ask you to change that in the document or in your feedback sheets.

Council Memberfield.

Uh, just a question, what your definition of localized service is.

So localized service is something that's a little bit more neighborhood serving versus uh regional is um have a broader service area, broader trade area.

So they're bringing people in from a wider range.

I wouldn't focus on that term per se, but more so the uses that are within it.

So when you think localized service, Randy, think of little markets.

Think of a um a little coffee shop somewhere that sell a bodega, something that would sell a little bit of food, a little bit of all the other items.

So I was wondering why in the um uh C16 zone localized service would have been listed as non um not available or not C16 not permitted here.

Yeah, so C16 item 12, as you come across, it's indicated as in your feedback is not permitted.

Seems like that would be a perfect place for that type of service.

So we are butting um those neighborhoods to the uh south and southwest.

Um so things like arcades, tanning salons, um shoe repairs, veterinarian clinics, um so those things that we just felt were inappropriate to be right next to those residential neighborhoods.

Uh now if you feel differently, that's certainly fine.

Um we can change that.

Um I just know like an architectural office would be a service, but it and it's you would you would fall under office.

Okay.

All right.

It's not the error on the number one that we're talking about.

No, no, no.

No.

No.

Actually, it's defined that two pages back on here.

You've got localized, it took me a minute, but it they're defined there.

What's that's why we wanted it?

Let's focus on those those specific uses for the next couple of pages, because this is where we're gonna talk about conditionally allowed, not allowed, or allowed by right.

Um so building use frameworks, again, the things that we've been told so far that would be conditional use permits, um alcohol and liquor sales, retail tobacco, and wine and liquor shops.

Now, if you want to add other ones, write them in the boxes.

If you want to use anything else, please tell us what you want added or subtracted or whatever it may be.

Again, we're not saying you have to do this right now.

Please take some time and think about it.

Um, but these are the types of localized retail uses that you would be eligible to put there under localized retail use.

So this table right here that says localized retail uses correlates to localized retail uses line 11 on the previous page.

Just so there's a correlation between those two, so you understand.

I do want to add that I oh that happened.

Um under regional retail uses, the first box says all neighborhood retail uses.

That is an old term.

So originally localized retail uses, we uh had it named as neighborhood retail.

Uh but due to some uh confusion in the code, there was neighborhood retail is referred elsewhere in the code, and so we wanted to be clear on that there's a difference, and so therefore we renamed it so it's localized retail.

Um so when you see all neighborhood retail uses or all neighborhood service uses, um, those are just uh localized retail and localized service respectively.

Okay.

Um so what the reason these are here is so you can understand what we mean by those designations.

So take some time and go through this list.

Again, we're not saying you need to give this to us right now.

Um what we're asking you to do is take some time and think through what belongs there and what does not belong there.

A good example of that is as I was just looking, automobile parts sales in the CH district, which is that smaller historic district.

Now, is that there because we have O'Reilly setting right on the edge of that?

Is that why that's there?

Because I'm thinking, why do we want automobile sales, parts sales in the middle of our downtown historic area?

My opinion is I would highlight that and say no.

No, but but in the district, it's uh because you maybe have that outside of the CH, but because it's in as a regional retail use, localized, it really doesn't give you a place.

I mean, maybe I'm trying to think.

So you would if you it's all of them versus some.

Does that make sense?

It's kind of hard to drill down that specific.

I guess can you I'm not quite following.

Could you try that one more time?

Well, there's a there's a little there's a bucket here.

Regional retail uses.

Yes.

Okay.

So um, I guess maybe you could just say no regional retail uses in the downtown historic in the CH.

And that may take care of it because you heating, air conditioning, plumbing supplies, that type of stuff.

Um it used to be a department store was great downtown.

And if you could get a department store downtown, that'd be awesome, but that's part of the regional retail uses that you would be saying no to.

So that's the that do you see what I'm saying?

It's a little hard.

I just I wasn't quite understanding, I'm sorry.

I hear what you're saying, Marin.

That's a great point.

I mean, just uh it is a a weakness of this, but it's it's hard to regulate every single use in this.

Um, and so it's easier just administrative approval, whether it's yes or no, rather than getting down into the definitions for every single one, um, because that opens up more ambiguity.

Um, but I do hear your point.

Um, and so things like that, um, we may want to make a conditional use if it's um if it may depend on the character of the neighborhood on whether it's appropriate.

Well, and I guess my thought is we may not even want a conditional use.

I mean, my thought is no, you don't need heating air conditioning plumbing supply sales and services in your downtown historic district, period.

That's totally fine too.

Because what it's gonna do, if we don't define it now, this is like a zoning code, and we've had these discussions, then one, it's gonna overly burden planning and zoning for stuff that it's like we really shouldn't even have to go up for conditional use permit, and if you don't want it, you don't want it, right?

Because you're opening a door, because you have to deal with it later if you don't deal with it now.

Exactly.

That's that's why I want you to spend time with this.

So if it's a no, just tell us it's a no.

So you can put it on the excluded list.

Question for you as an example.

If a pharmacy wanted to locate on 16th in that um C16 zone, what um where do they fall in the use category?

So 16th and C16.

The green area, yeah.

So it'd be 12 drugstore pharmacy.

So localized service.

Yep.

12.

Oh, yeah.

I'm sorry.

Uh it's on the right hand side, third down.

Under localized retail.

Localized retail far right.

Well, there it is.

Yeah.

Okay, but um, as an example, um, we've done several Walgreens uh over the years in different locations, they have drive-throughs.

So would that be a conditional use permit?

Because it says it's not allowed.

So drive-throughs are not allowed, they're incompatible with the goals of this walkable district.

Um, and so um there are plenty of wall greens that don't have drive-throughs, plenty of CBS.

I'm just saying somebody new to the market.

Yeah, sure.

And I mean, the goal would be to try and make the the wallgreens fit the form and the style of the neighborhood that it's in.

And there's plenty of places that have I mean, if you have good code, you can twist their arm and say we want you to look like us.

We're not saying don't come here, we're just saying we want you to look like you belong in the community as opposed to having a parking lot in front and the building set back 50 feet off the road.

Right.

So they would need to locate someplace else.

Or amend their building style.

Yeah, they can always they can always be located just outside of the uh downtown core, too, outside of this extent if they want to drive through.

So and uh we're wrapping up on time and I want to make sure we have a couple minutes for any questions that come back up.

Um so we've got the the localized retail and the regional retail, same things.

Please X out what you don't like, uh, put conditional on others.

However, you want to mark it up fine.

We we'll decipher it from there.

And the same thing with the um services.

So you've got localized and regional services as well.

There are two different items, and they do correlate back to this table that goes here.

Rodney I I just want to emphasize real quick.

We um have done these exercises in the past, and we ask for feedback, and then you take I mean others have taken it and gone home, and we just don't get a lot of anything back.

Um we really need your your input here.

So please, please just make sure this is a priority to get something back to us.

So we were trying to get it done here so that we didn't have that situation.

It just means we're gonna have to keep following up with you if we don't if we don't get something back.

And as as the consultant staff, we if you have questions as you're going through this, we'll make time to get on a zoom with you and answer your questions.

So you're filling it out in the way you feel comfortable.

Premier clean.

So we have Rodney.

So uh Victor first and then Sebastian next.

Yes.

Thank you, Mayor.

Um, Rodney, since I'm online.

Could I stop by and pick up one of these forms so I could fill it out?

Or can you mail it to me or email it to me?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Oh, cool.

Thank you.

Either either one of those will work, but I will make sure to email it to you for sure.

And okay, cool.

Thank you.

And Sebastian.

Thank you.

Which city do you feel that is most similar to NAMPA in their stage in life and the development and form-based code that we could most mirror?

And while you're thinking about that, I don't need an answer.

I just wanted to I look at this and I can start going through and scratching what I believe.

Yep.

I don't want a pawn shop down there.

I don't want an antique shop, I don't want all these things.

But I've uh and I'm sure Councilman Bills, if he were here, would say the same thing.

The market's gonna get those people thrown out real quick if they're not getting people walking through their doors.

If there's something that you've seen in a similar community, and maybe 10 or 20 years after us, you can look at current and after the fact.

What is or isn't working?

I think Mayor makes very good points on we might not need a uh car supply because people are living here for walkability and the uh convenience of not having to deal with those things.

And I so I mean I'll think through that and I'll get it to you.

Um, because there's a couple on our list that I'm thinking of, but I want to do a little research.

And but where we disagree with councilman bills a little bit is if you want the if you want to make a change that isn't 30 years down the line, you do have to be proactive with some of these items.

So the market will correct many things on its own, but the question that you have to answer yourself is do you want to wait those 30 years for the person that it has an antique shop?

And I'm using them as an example, because this is usually what happens.

They have an antique shop, it is their hobby business, they own the building, they don't do anything with it, the building crumbles.

But you can't get rid of them because it's an allowed use, and you can't enforce anything, but you're stuck waiting 30 years for them to either die or move away.

So I uh once again, I lean to you both because you are the experts in this field.

I'll chop up the form-based code because I think it's gonna be fun for me.

This isn't fun for me because it's me throwing a dart at a board that I don't understand the industry on.

So if there's something that you said for the fundamentals of living in downtown, you need a bakery, you need retail.

Frankly, I uh the for the first time ever, I might say we should have a wine shop because people who live in flats are an eccentric kind of lifestyle that might want to go buy some wine and cheese and take it up to their flat.

But that's just where I'm trying to think through what should downtown look like.

I don't know what's crucial and essential to be able to create that vibe aesthetic and and be sustaining.

They are, that's correct.

Our recommendations are in the code, and we'll we'll mark them up.

Um there are some things that we I mean, as as professionals went, that makes sense, but there are others that I mean from our side, you're right.

Uh wine and liquor store does match the people that live in a downtown environment.

But it was listed as one of those things that was maybe not desired in the downtown.

Well, because I believe our council has said that in every other project forever.

Now, professionally, I think it's important to have it in the downtown because you're it matches the profile of people that live there.

And actually, we do have a downtown because prefunk, you can go in and buy your growler, swirl, you can go in and buy your wine.

I'm not sure on the cheese, but we actually do have it.

We just don't have it as a standalone store.

But the services are there through our existing uh businesses.

I want to uh sorry, go ahead.

I um wanted to maybe when you're slicing and dicing and making a recommendations, and I think Ben did a great job explaining that um local market turnover with some of these businesses.

Um when you talk about antique shops and you talk about pawn shops, um recognizing our current business mix as well.

There is gonna be a fine line with the adoption of this code.

We want to be aspirational and look towards what we want, what we want to attract.

I do also want to make sure that we are being respectful of some of our current um business owners and long-standing people that are in the community.

Um just keep that in the front of your mind as well.

We don't want to like an antique shop or a vintage shop, for example.

We actually have a fairly successful cluster of those businesses.

They do a lot of engagement in our community and then in the region, so making that an outright no on that would be something from a staff perspective that would be really challenging for us right now.

And I think to to clarify, Mayor, if I could I don't have an opinion on frankly anything in downtown because I just think if the market's going to drive it, drive it.

Drive it up, drive it wherever you want.

I'm not this is coming from Councilman Griffin.

Go as high as you want and put in what you need to to sustain downtown, because then it stops sprawl, and that's my mindset.

So I don't mean any offense.

Obviously, this is probably the 19th time that I should watch my mouth when I talk about these things.

I appreciate our local businesses.

Is this a grandfather clause?

If there's a local antique shop in downtown, we adopt this code.

Are we evicting them or are they going to be able to sustain that?

Thank you for that question, Councilman.

Um yeah, we it that is a legal non-conforming use.

It's in our code already, it will continue to be in our code.

We actually have reference in in the proposed code as well, that if it's there, it will continue to be able to be there.

It's when the use changes.

If if a use changes, it's no longer available if we've said, no, this land use should not be in the downtown.

So if we have a major change, it can't go back to what it previously was if that's not permitted in that district.

So our our local and most supportive shops downtown will continue to be until the market feels that they no longer are.

Until they sell or close their business or need another occupancy permit, or something changes in that process.

That that is their grandfather until something changes.

So I apologize, Mayor, just one more.

To to confirm is it by the owner, or can somebody hold and keep selling and passing down a use forever?

Because you said only a change.

Could it be the tenure of a single business owner and then we're gonna revert back to code?

Or can somebody hold out for a hundred years and keep something that we might not want?

Yeah, good question.

Um the the um the way we handle it right now is um if it's a bar, if the land use doesn't change, it continues to be a bar, even if it's sold to someone else, right?

However, when there's a conditional use permit, we can require it be tied to a specific owner, if that's the desire of the planning and zoning commission.

They review that and say, hey, this is really important that the the organization that runs this business is the one that continues to run it.

If that's the case, you put it in the conditional use permit.

But otherwise it continues with the property.

Correct.

Yeah, and to to elaborate on that, when it's tied to the conditional use permit or to a business, it's usually in something that would be considered a non-desirable business to maintain after it changes.

And and we recognize that messaging is the important thing here, right?

For our downtown businesses, we have to contact them and say, hey, just because it says your business isn't allowed here, doesn't mean we're gonna kick you out, right?

That's gotta be on if that's on our shoulders to go out and talk with them and make sure they understand.

There is no effort to kick them out of the out of the place they're in.

But and we recognize that and we'll make sure that happens.

I guess one thought though is I'm thinking of a specific business that is a uh it's quasi, it's got antiques, it's got uh all different things that they sell out of their store.

If we said no antique stores per se, that it's more of a retail, it's not an antique, but and all of a sudden you say that you can't do that, and if it changes, that means you have devalued their business because they can't sell their business.

That's a big deal.

So we need to think about that because we would be saying that you can't sell your business.

In essence, I think we just need to think about that.

That's that's correct.

I'm looking at our commissioners right now because they have that conversation when they when they handle a conditional use permit, they're having that specific conversation.

Does it make sense for this land use to continue regardless of who is in there?

Or that's when they're issuing it.

What we're talking about here, and I want to make sure that is that when you have an existing business that's there and we put this framework in place, then what happens to that ex because they weren't conditional use or they are an allowed use, but if we change the allowed use for the future and they sell, do you see what I'm saying?

Yeah, we just need to be mindful of it, and I want to think through what the implications of that are.

It's different when you're issuing a conditional use permit to something new.

I'm talking about I mean, I'll be honest, there is no win-win scenario in any of this.

And there's um, but the thing that you have to keep in mind is into your question about devaluing a business, when somebody sells their business, they're selling assets and contacts, they can move that to another location, or they could come in for another conditional use permit if so needed.

But that doesn't guarantee that the board of commission is going to approve it.

Right.

And so I mean, there's many levels of complexity to this, that it's there is not a win-win scenario for every situation every time.

And and maybe what we do here is we just make sure that you you know, please make those notes in there.

Are there certain things that we should say when occupancy changes, it should just continue.

Um please just note that and get that information back to us.

Thank you, Brett.

Let's we're gonna do one more question and then we're gonna go.

Um so if a current use isn't um I guess allowed with this.

But the people want to sell that business like an antique store.

They decided we want to retire, they want to sell.

As long as the use isn't changed, then they should be able to continue for as long as they want, and then it could sell again, and as long as that use so a thriving business downtown, such as an antique store, if it continues to grow and thrive, there's no reason that they can't sell to someone else and then they can just continue and operate.

If it's a specific C UP that's been issued, then that's a little bit different.

But if it's just tied to the business, right?

But if it's not if it's a if it's a current use existing right now, and then this goes into comes into um play, then things won't change for that business unless the specific use of that business changes.

Frankly, they have a monopoly at that point.

They're they're more lucrative.

Yeah, I just wanted to make sure that truly is the case when we change our code, because I heard a comment about if it sells that it would have to adhere to our new code, which would mean it wouldn't continue.

So that's thank you for your comment.

Yeah.

And we'll double check, but it I again, if it's a C UP, it we'll have to double check.

But if it's tied to a business, it it may be different.

If it's tied to a property, it may be different.

We'll double check on that.

Thank you.

Because that that'll change if it's tied to a physical entity or if it's tied to a physical property.

Thank you.

Okay, so it's 902.

What do we do now?

Because we do need to wrap.

Yep.

We give me 30 seconds.

As the last thing we did is we put pictures in here, and we said this the district that it is, the location that it is, we gave you its setbacks, and we would it's an exercise for you if you want to understand the way form-based code works.

Does it meet or does it not meet?

And you'll see the checklist up here on the right-hand side.

If it meets, check.

If it doesn't, check.

You don't have to do these, but this is a great way as a learning exercise for you to say it met or it did not meet, so you can understand if the form-based code and how it operates and how it works.

Thank you.

And there's three of them one for this one for the CH, one for the C D and one or two for the C D district.

It's a very simplified exercise, but we just wanted to give you an opportunity to go through it.

Um, the standards are in like the corresponding standards that are here are in the presentation for that district, so that you can um check it back and forth, and you'll get a copy of all of that.

Um, but we just wanted to provide that as well.

Thank you.

And that's it for today.

We're we're done.

Okay, so what's next?

What's the slide?

Uh while they're changing that, I would stand for a motion to adjourn.

We don't have to, we can just okay.

So we are adjourned.

I do have just I'd like as you thank you.

Yeah, yeah.

Next steps.

Full document with edits.

And and off uh before even that first step is I need your comments back.

Right?

That's the first step.

Okay.

Without comments, we can't make changes.

Please include this in your email.

Right, with all your instructions.

So we have it all in one place as a reminder.

Yep.

Thank you, guys.

Thank you.

Really appreciate it.

I believe you also all have my business card from last time.

Uh but if you needed it again, happy to provide that.

Uh but you can just text me a picture.