Folks in the balcony, please have a seat.

Please find a seat.

Good morning.

Welcome to today's New York City Council hearing for the Committee on Health.

Please sign all cell phone and electronic devices.

Moving forward, no one is still approached.

They is.

Please keep the quorum in here at this government proceeding.

Chair, we are ready to begin.

Good morning.

I am Councilmember Lynn Shulman, Chair of the New York City Council's Committee on Health.

Today, the Committee on Health will hear Introduction 943, sponsored by Councilmember Mate in relation to prohibiting the operation of horse-drawn cabs.

I would like to recognize that we have been joined by Speaker Menon and by Council members.

Mate, Jennero, Wong, Epstein, De La Rosa, Wilson, and Ariola.

Last month, Ramanj Mahajan and his family were visiting New York City from India when they took a horse carriage ride in Central Park.

During the ride, the carriage driver stepped away from the carriage to take a photograph of the family.

The horse bolted, causing Romanch's mother, Priya, to fall out of the carriage.

Romanch then either jumped or fell from the carriage, suffering a severe head injury.

He tragically died later that day.

My heart goes out to the Mahajan family for the unimaginable loss they have endured.

Please join me in a moment of silence in memory of Ramanche.

Thank you.

I will now turn it over to Speaker Menon for her opening remarks.

Thank you, everyone.

I'm Julie Menon, Speaker of the New York City Council, and I want to welcome all of you to this important hearing.

I first of all want to thank my colleague, our health chair, Councilmember Shulman, for convening today's hearing, and I want to thank my colleague, Councilmember Marche, the sponsor of Ramanche's law.

So to the Mahajan family, there are no words for Romanche's death.

When I spoke to you this morning and I heard the pain in your voice, we there is nothing we can do to bring him back.

But what we can do is honor his legacy, which is what we're doing today at this hearing to make sure that this type of tragedy never happens again.

And so I just want to thank you for your courage in being here.

I know this is not easy, and we're going to hear from you in a few minutes.

And our condolences extend to your whole family.

Uh ahead of him.

It is, and I say this as a mom, it's like really deeply heart-wrenching.

When that death was avoidable, where he could be alive if only we had acted sooner.

It is a call to action for all people of good conscience.

For your family, for all the families, and for our city, we are here to ensure that this never happens again.

This issue is not new to our city.

It's certainly not new to city government.

There are many people who are in this chambers who've been working on this issue for many, many years, but it has never come to fruition.

The matter of horse carriages or maintenance or safety and operation has come up under previous mayors and previous city councils every year for almost four decades.

The time to act is now.

So I'm committing here today that we are going to chart a path forward to protect the workers and ensure that they have good paying jobs moving forward, whether it be in the hospitality or tourism or other industry.

We know that you are a vital threat of the fabric of this city, and we will not exclude you from this conversation.

I'm also very committed to ensuring that horses involved are treated fairly and compassionately, and we will ensure through this bill that we will guarantee their safety and well-being as well.

So that brings us to the pivotal crossroads where we stand today.

As public servants, we must respond to the concerns of our constituents, and we must recognize that the appetite towards banning horse carriages has grown significantly over the past four decades.

New Yorkers have long been concerned about public safety.

With scores of accidents and close calls involving horses, passengers, commuters, maintaining large and naturally skittish animals in our chaotic city is a dangerous combination.

And sadly, with Romanche's death, we have now reached a turning point.

We have also become a city that is overwhelmingly supportive of the humane treatment of animals.

And there have been many incidents involving horses collapsing in the hot, congested environment of our streets.

Accordingly, nearly 70 percent of New Yorkers are supportive of phasing out this practice.

And we want to be clear.

We can and we should have this conversation today with respect and with empathy, no matter where we stand on this issue.

I hope and I know that this hearing will maintain a tone of somberness, of sensitivity, and civility for everyone who has come here today.

I'm looking forward to hearing from the administration, from the industry, from advocates, and most of all, from Ramanche's family.

I'm also so incredibly sorry, as I said from the beginning for your loss.

And for those of you that don't know this aspect, Ramon died in an act of heroism as he tried to protect his mother.

Now, a law named in his honor will protect countless others, residents, tourists, humans, and horses.

While there is nothing we can do to sadly change the tragedy of his death, passing his law is one way to seek justice for him and his family, to keep his blessed memory alive, and to carry his brave and compassionate spirit forward.

So I now want to turn it over to Councilmember Shellman again.

Thank you.

Thank you, Speaker Menon.

The circumstances surrounding Romanche's death are deeply disturbing.

The driver's conduct was reckless, unacceptable, and this young man's death was entirely preventable.

This recent tragedy comes on the heels of other high-profile incidents in which carriage horses have broken free, collapsed, or died.

These include Denise, a carriage horse who died in June after eating a plant toxic to horses, and Ryder, a horse who collapsed in Hill's Kitchen in 2022 and was later euthanized.

These incidents have intensified a debate that has been taking place for years in our city about the welfare of carriage horses, the safety of our residents and visitors, the livelihoods of carriage drivers, and the future of the horse carriage industry.

Today we are discussing legislation that, if enacted, would wind down the horse carriage industry.

Introduction 943 would prohibit the issuance of new horse carriage operator licenses after June 1st, 2028, and would also prohibit the operation of horse-drawn cabs after that date.

The bill would also require the humane disposition of former carriage horses, including prohibiting their sale or transfer for slaughter or for use in another horse-drawn cab business.

Finally, the bill would require the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection and the Mayor's Office of Talent and Workforce Development to develop a job for training program for former drivers and other workers involved in the industry, with the goal of facilitating their transition to other fields of employment.

This is an industry with a long history in New York City, and for generations, carriage drivers have built their livelihoods around this work.

But times are changing, and we cannot ignore these tragic incidents or the serious public safety concerns they have raised.

The landscape of our city has changed dramatically.

Central Park and the surrounding streets are busier and more congested with pedestrians, bicycles, e-bikes, pedicabs, scooters, vehicles, and horse-drawn carriages increasingly competing for space.

When a horse becomes distressed, collapses, or breaks free in this environment, the consequences are devastating, not only for the horse, but for drivers, passengers, and everyone sharing our streets and public spaces.

This is fundamentally an issue that greatly affects the public.

These concerns are not based on a single incident.

For years, New Yorkers, advocates, elected officials, and others have raised questions about animal welfare and public safety within the horse carriage industry.

Last month's devastating tragedy has forced us to confront these concerns in a new light and consider whether it is time for a new path forward.

As we consider the future of this industry, we must carefully examine what a responsible transition would require, both for the horses and for the people whose livelihoods depend on this work.

We must consider how to protect the horses by placing them in safe and caring homes.

We must also recognize the drivers and workers who have devoted years and in some cases generations to this industry, as well as the significant investments they have made in their carriage licenses.

We must consider how to provide drivers with meaningful opportunities for new employment.

My hope is that we can bring people together around these shared responsibilities.

I know emotions are running high today on all sides of this issue, and I want to conclude by reminding everyone that although there may be strong opinions on this legislation and on the future of this industry, we must maintain a civil and respectful proceeding.

The purpose of this hearing is to ensure that all voices and all perspectives can be heard today.

We must maintain decorum throughout the proceedings.

I would like, I would also like to thank the representatives for the administration for being here.

I want to thank the committee staff, and I want to make mention the committee staff has worked an enormous amount of hours and enormous amount of days and worked really hard on this.

And so I really want to thank them from the bottom of my heart.

Chris Pepe, Josh Newman, Elizabeth Arthur for their hard work in preparing for this hearing, as well as my team, Jonathan Boucher, Kevin Maclear, and Sammy New.

Before I hand it over to Councilmember Marte for a brief statement on his legislation, I want to uh I want to let people know that you can request translation in the following languages Spanish, Hindi, Tajik, Turkish, Turkish, and Russian.

So if anybody needs anything, um please let the sergeants know.

Now I will turn it over to Councilmember Marty for a brief statement on his legislation.

Good morning, everyone.

I would like to give a huge thank you to Speaker Men and Chair Showman for holding today's historic hearing, and to the thousands of advocates and everyday New Yorkers who for years have been demanding we take action on horse carriages in Central Park.

For decades, we've seen horse carriages live in cramped stables.

We've seen them walk through midtown traffic, breathing in exhaust.

We've seen them pull thousands of pounds in the heat and in the cold.

We've seen them get scared, run off, and die in the streets.

Every time an incident occurs, we are given an excuse.

We are told it's just an isolated incident, and the industry is completely safe.

But the reality is that in the past 34 years, there have been 128 documented horse carriage accidents.

Dirty horses have died.

Dozens of horses and people have been injured and hospitalized.

Vehicles have been damaged and destroyed.

And most recently, we lost the life of a young tourist, Romash Mahaja.

As legislators, now is the time for serious accountability.

While the City Council has dragged its feet through endless debates, we now have the loss of a boy on our hand.

These are not unrelated accidents, but a pattern of failure that proves this industry does not work in modern-day New York City.

During this hearing, we're going to hear a lot of more excuses.

If the drivers are just trained better, this will never happen again.

That if we just add additional infrastructure to Central Park, such as hitching posts, that will solve the problem.

We'll be told that the issue is just the lack of government oversight.

And we'll be threatened that if we pass this bill, all the horses will be sent to the slaughterhouse.

However, these excuses don't hold up.

The Department of Health have tried to provide oversight over the carriage industry, but when the agency ordered independent veterinarians to inspect the stables and the horses, the workers refused to allow them to test their horses.

That veteran veterinarian found horses stuck in stables too small, covered in scarring, and exhibiting signs of many medical issues that could disqualify them from working.

It was not the city who did not enforce.

It was the industry that refused to comply.

After 128 horse carriage accidents, it was only when someone was killed that additional training was provided to the drivers.

Legislation has never been required to make better training.

Either the owners have ignored training their drivers or their training has not been working.

For days after Romash's death, we were promised that drivers were going to be trained to never leave their horses unattended.

Drivers were documented doing exactly that.

No amount of driver training will change the nature of horses.

They can and will get scared and run off.

Even hitching posts which we are told are the magic bullets to stop horse accidents are not a real solution.

A 1,0500 pound horse will still get scared while tied to a hitching post.

Their halters can snap under extreme pressures and the horses can run off.

They can even pull the post onto the ground if the horse pulls back violently he may fall with the carriage and capsize and even if the harness does not snap the extreme pressures on the top of the head can result in seriously and lasting injuries.

It can even break their neck.

Lastly we must put to rest the idea that banning horse carriages will lead to the death of horses we are going to hear today from a broad coalition of sanctuaries and farms willing to pay owners full prices for their horses sending the horses to the slaughterhouse is completely unnecessary.

If we all work together we can pass this bill compensate the owners let the horses live their lives on open pastures the preventable death of Romash has proven that we can't reform our way out of this but there's a way forward and that is Romash law intro 943.

With this bill we can end this inhumane industry find safe homes for the horses and transition workers to other jobs my office has already been in discussion with this with City Hall and they're in the process of developing proposal for workforce development programs for workers.

Ramosh law is how we can truly honor Romash so we can offer his family more than just words by action.

We can protect the horses take care of the workers and make sure that this tragedy never happens again ever.

Thank you Councilmember Mate I would now like to recognize we've been joined by council members Abreyu and Narcis and Felder.

Did I miss anybody?

Okay.

Before we hear testimony from the administration we will hear directly from Romanche's family who have joined us here in chambers and online to provide testimony first we will hear from Priya Mahajan and DPAC Mahajan do we have members of the Constance we had a Roman's mother and mother three and Mahajan we brought our son to the New York from India to celebrate Roman finishing school.

The day we landed he found out that he had been accepted to the one of the most prestigious university India.

Two days later we took a carriage ride in Sentral Park and near the end of the ride the driver stepped away from the horse to take our family pictures the horse ran away out of control I cannot properly describe to you the real truth inside that carriage it was shaking it was speeding there was no one holding the reins and we could do nothing but hold on to each other and scream my wife fell Romanche tried to help his mother and he took then he hit his hand on the ground and he did not move head to the ground he never moved again I kept shouting his name but he did not move he was again six foot two obedient smart the boy who helped everybody whether he knew them or not who was always sharing his ideas with me he wanted to build something of his own he died that day he took his slot back in his mother's arm by his 11 year old brother and I stood watching this was the last year of his life no one planned for this or expected to happen to their child but it happened to us.

Now we live inside that day over and over again we are shattered our whole family shattered the pain does not go away every morning we wake up and think of nothing but the loss of our son we came to New York as a family of four learning RYR to cope up with life as Garth now our home is so our home is no longer the same we still have not unpacked Romance luggage from that trip.

Every time we enter his room breakdown his books his belongings and his dreams are exactly where he left him left him.

His friends are shattered.

They had plans with him for college for life for the future.

They still struggle to believe that he's gone.

Our younger son Mani, who is now our only son, is unable to cop up with that trauma and horror he witnessed that day.

He watched his brother die.

He lost not only his sibling, but his companion, his guide, and his best friend.

No child should ever have to carry memories like this for the rest of the life.

And for us, every night is a nightmare.

We close our eyes and relive that's right.

The screams, the helpless, and the moment our son's life ended before.

I want you to imagine what it is like watching our son die right in front of you.

I will not wish one hour of any of this on any family in this world.

Romanch was wearing a red striped shirt and blue jeans.

Sometimes when he thinks back to those final moments, it feels as though he was wrapped in the color of American flag.

A young boy who came to America full of dreams and left us for too soon.

This was not an unpredictable accident.

It was a safety violation.

A system failure to protect the people who visit our city.

Your city and everyone responsible has admitted the driver should never have left that carriage.

And still, the right went back on the streets while we were planning our son's funeral, as if our boy was a temporary inconvenience, but we will not let that be Roman's legacy.

Now we are asking you plainly act now.

A version of this law sat before this council last year.

And if it had passed, the carriages would have stopped on June 1st, 2026.

Roman died on June 17.

If the city council has passed the law banning horse on paralytics last year, our son will still be alive today.

The only measure that can prevent another death stored injury is a full and complete bath.

Pass Intro 943, Romanch's law.

Let our son be the last baby of the industry.

Let his death not be in vain.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So sorry for your loss.

Next we have Gauravna.

Hajjun.

And sorry, Nuvje.

Manjana.

Manga.

Members of the committee, my name is Gaurav Mahajan.

Romanj was my nephew.

I'm speaking in front of you, but I want to be honest with you.

A part of me died with him that day.

And it has not come back.

Let me tell you who he was, because he was not a headline.

Romanch was a brilliant boy.

He didn't have small dreams.

He wanted to build something big to be an entrepreneur.

And he talked about it constantly.

His father, to me, and anyone who would listen.

He had a smile that pulled you in and a heart that could still sit still, still if someone needed help, whether he knew them or not.

That is not a story we made up for this room.

That is who he was.

And that is exactly how he died, reaching for his mother when the horse bolted.

In the most terrifying moment of his life, with no one at the reins and everything out of control, my 18-year-old nephew showed true bravery.

Grief takes the future from you a piece at a time.

Roman collected sneakers, he loved them.

It wrecks me that I will never be able to buy him another pair.

I should be watching him build his business.

Instead, I catch myself staring at the door, waiting for him to walk through it, knowing he won.

We did not ask to become advocates.

A broken system forced us into it.

Romanch's law is written in our tears, but it's not just written in our tears.

It's written in the tears of those individuals and their families who were injured in the 1983 West Drive mass casualty incident.

And the 1985 incident involving the horse named Chester, who left four women in wheelchairs and one woman blind due to severe head trauma.

And the list of tragedies and injuries caused by force-drawn carriages goes on and on for decades.

Ending with our Romanj and his mother Priya.

If this law had already existed, my nephew would be alive today, changing everything he dreamed about.

You have the power to stop this from happening to another family.

I'm asking you, look at us.

Remember his face and pass the law so his soul can finally rest.

In closing, we request a permanent physical memorial at the exact site of the tragedy.

Romanj's unmatched bravery defined the very best of humanity on New York soil.

The ground where he took his final breath must stand forever as a monument to their love, ensuring the city never forgets the boy who gave everything to protect his mother.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Next we will hear from Anuj.

I'm sorry.

Okay, one more.

Oh, okay.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that.

Okay.

Go ahead.

I'm sorry.

Maybe my name is Nati Margaret, and I'm Roman's aunt.

I came here today with a broken heart because our beautiful boy is gone.

And where he used to be, there is now a silence I cannot describe.

Before this, Romanche was a sunshine.

I know every family says that, but I need you to hear it about him.

Charming, loving, full of life.

18 years old, celebrating his graduation with every dream still in front of him.

He trusted the city.

He got into the carriage believing that if New York allowed these rides on its streets, they must be safe.

That trust is what makes this unbearable.

A happy family trip turned into pure terror when the horse became wild and uncontrollable.

And in those last moments, my nephew was so brave, braver than any child should ever have to be facing something like that.

Never should have been allowed to happen to him.

Every day since the quiet in our home is deafening.

Some mornings the grief is so heavy, it is hard to take a breath.

Please do not let him become a case number on a piece of paper.

If you have children or a niece or a nephew, take off them tonight.

Imagine that fear for one second, and then follow your heart.

The horse-drawn carriage ban must come to an end, which is why Roman's death was preventable and why only a band will do.

Pass Roman's law immediately.

Please help us spare the next family from this nightmare.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Now I'll call up Anouj Dukrat and Sylvia Thukrat.

You're hit.

You're here, right?

Come up to the table.

No, he's gonna go.

Go ahead.

Good morning, members of the committee, and thank you for letting us speak.

My name is Soviet Tukral.

I'm along with my husband Anish Tukral.

We are here for our nephew Romanj Mahajan, who lost his life in Central Park on June 17, 2026.

He he arrived in New York just two days prior, on June 15th.

He was so excited to start college.

He had been accepted to one of the top universities in India.

And at 18, he had every dream and his entire life still ahead of him.

He was kind, sincere.

He loved being around little children.

And he carried himself with an honesty and loyalty to his family that you don't see in someone that young.

I need to tell you about one phone call.

On June 17th, that afternoon, I called my brother, Deepak Mahajan, expecting to hear that they were having a wonderful day.

Instead, I heard him crying, begging me, begging the officers at the scene, telling them, save my son.

I heard my sister-in-law Priya Mahajan.

I heard Roman's little brother, Manik Mahajan, crying, horrified.

Those screams, those cries, those sounds of agony and despair, those sounds have not left me, and they haunt me every single time.

They come back to me, and they will for the rest of my life.

A boy who came here to celebrate the start of his new future in the city, he was so excited to see.

Never went home.

The unattended horse spooked and bolted.

And when it did, Romanj tried to save his mother, and it cost him his life.

Romanj is not a tragedy on a page.

He was a son, a grandson, a brother, a nephew, a young man with a future that belonged to him.

He was a part of a family.

Just like the elderly woman who was catastrophically injured, and the tourist who was dragged by two spooked horses in 1997.

Just like two passengers who were injured by the runaway horse, Nikki, in 1998.

61st Street and Fifth Avenue.

Two carriage incidents of 2003.

Carriages, injuries, and catastrophes.

Now, will you finally act and put a stop to this industry?

I am standing here in support of Romance Law so that his death will not go unremembered.

His passing will not be forgotten.

That forces society to change so that no other family ever has to carry what we carry now.

Please remember his name.

Romanch Mahajan.

Remember the life he lived and the love he gave to everyone around him.

And make sure he's the last person to die from this industry.

I'm sorry.

Make sure he's the last person to die from this industry.

Sorry, guys.

She doesn't want to speak anything.

She's numbed, devastated, losing her 18-year-old son.

It's painful for everybody in the house.

The house is empty there now.

There is no sound of him.

His room is dark.

Nobody can enter that room anymore.

We just want to thank you for coming here today.

We know how painful this is for you.

You have our deepest condolences, and I just want to thank you for your courage and being able to share what the family is going through.

We know this is very, very difficult for you, and we really appreciate your whole family coming here and testifying before us today.

Yes, I want to reiterate what the speaker said.

Thank you for your courage and thank you for sharing with us today.

Really appreciate that.

So did you have some words or you can speak?

Thank you, everyone.

I just want to say that when this whole incident happened, the entire family was helpless.

When the when the horse bolted, they were helpless.

When Roman fell, they were helpless.

His mom telling us that he literally took his last breath in front of her, and she said he was breathing in front of me, but he couldn't open his eyes.

And they were helpless.

At least now with all of what your effort and the efforts of everybody in this room, including the speaker, and all of you guys, maybe you can pass the law to be a help to them.

Their house literally went from they have kids everywhere to have an energy of a Disneyland to becoming like an energy of a graveyard.

That's the energy that they're living with because that's what they are going through every single day.

Thank you again.

Okay, thank you very much.

Um did you or you good?

Thank you to uh the committee here today to Speaker Menon uh to Councilman Marte, to Councilman Shulman.

My name is Sagar Chada.

I'm a partner at Liacus Law.

I represent the estate and the family of Romanch Mahajan.

Uh I just want to first of all point out uh what everyone else here has already said, uh, but to highlight the fact that this incident was entirely avoidable.

A Romanche's death will not be in vain.

He came to the city as a tourist, and he died as a son of this city.

And we will hold the city accountable for the decades of failures in enforcing and preventing this action from taking place.

Hitching posts, tethering points, no safety devices whatsoever to secure a 2,000 pound animal from consistently getting spooked and bolting.

This incident could have been avoided.

It should have never happened.

And if this law had been passed a year ago, on June 1st, 2026, there would be no horses in this city.

Ramunch, unfortunately, passed away on June 17th.

His death will not be in vain.

This is not about uh the workers uh and and the union members.

They too have called for better safety.

The Conservancy for decades has called for better safety, and we will hold the city accountable.

Thank you.

All right, thank you very much to all of you.

Um, are there any other family members that are here before I move on?

No?

Okay.

Um I want to also recognize that we've been joined by Councilmember Morano, and now the administration will present their testimony.

So thank you.

Will the administration come up.

I will turn it over to the committee council to administer the oath.

Thank you, Chair.

Good morning.

Um, if you could both please raise your right hand.

Do you affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth before this committee, and to respond honestly to Councilmember questions?

Deputy Commissioner?

Deputy Commissioner?

Yes.

You may proceed with your testimony.

Good morning, Madam Speaker, Chair Shulman, members of the committee on of the Health Committee and other council members.

I am Corinne Schiff, Deputy Commissioner for Environmental Health at the New York City Health Department.

On behalf of Commissioner Martin, thank you for the opportunity to testify today on Introduction 943.

I am joined by Carlos Ortiz, Chief of Staff and Deputy Commissioner of External Affairs at the New York City Department of Consumer and Worker Protection.

Before discussing the legislation, I want to express my deep condolences and those of the Health Commissioner and all of us at the Health Department to the family of Ramaj Mahajan.

His death associated with a horse carriage ride was a terrible tragedy.

It is unimaginable what his family is going through.

The health department is charged with issuing initial and renewal licenses for the carriage horses under the administrative code.

Our process includes reviewing the horses' health certificates to check that horses are examined by their veterinarian every four to eight months, as well as reviewing owner records showing that the horses have had at least five weeks a year of vacation or furlough at a horse stable that allows daily access to a paddock or pasture.

We make periodic observations of the horses' movement and overall body condition at the three Central Park hack stands where carriages must pick up and discharge passengers and monitor weather and issue weather-related suspensions.

We also conduct the training course for aspiring carriage horse drivers.

That is a prerequisite to obtain a horse carriage driver's license from DCWP.

Mayor Mamdani has been clear that New York City should join the other cities that no longer allow operation of a horse carriage industry, and the administration supports the intent of introduction 943.

To promote a good outcome for the horses, the bill would require the health department to provide horse owners with information about individuals and organizations that can receive or acquire horses for humane purposes and require owners to certify that they are not transferring or selling their horse for an inhumane purpose.

The bill provides a two-year phase out period, providing time for owners and drivers to make this transition, and requires a workforce development program.

The administration is, however, critical of the insufficiencies of the worker protections in the bill, and we look forward to working with the council to address those concerns as we move forward on this important issue for New Yorkers.

Thank you for the opportunity to testify, Deputy Commissioner Ortiz, and I can now take your questions.

Okay.

Did Commissioner Ottiese did you have a separate no?

Um Councilmember Gennaro.

Yes, thank you, Deputy Commissioner, for your statement.

The drivers.

By the way, uh, how much time do I have?

Okay.

So in the last hundred and sixty-seven years of the industry, or as far back as you have records, um, has there ever been a situation where a driver is where a horse carriage driver's license has been suspended or revoked?

The answer is no, but you can, you know.

I actually don't know if that's true.

I I in recent years there have not been suspension revocations, but I believe um in prior administrations there were.

No, no, no.

But I can I can pull the uh I'm sorry, Councilmember Janera, I know we'll give you extra time for this.

I I was commissioner of DCWP.

We actually did do a suspension due to conduct when I was commissioner, so it has happened and I think it would be conduct that had to do with like financial, not like safety.

Um but um in any event, um I was offered the opportunity by the speaker to make a statement at the outset of the hearing, uh, but I was told by staff that now tells the speaker what to do, that I was like not able to make a statement.

And so that's um okay.

And so um now when it comes to uh medallions, have uh have medallions been revoked or suspended, to your knowledge?

To my knowledge, in recent years they have not, sir.

Thank you.

Um in terms of um in terms of uh what the health department and the uh uh and and the um uh and and and the mountain unit that's that's out there, um what are the levels of uh um uh uh of tickets and violations for safety and also in and I also will note that you know after you know incidents have happened, um I I I noticed that um there have not been I don't think there have been violations issued to drivers, meaning that the people that would be you who are in charge of this kind of thing thought that it was explainable or something.

And so um I'm trying to find out how you come here today to support the elimination of the industry just because the mayor thinks so, but uh what I'm what I'm what I'm looking for here are actual facts because you you know you are the oversight thing, and it was nothing in your testimony that said I'm I'm sure that if you had actual data, facts, violations, episodes or whatever, you would have made mention of them in your testimony.

You did not.

Can you explain that?

Thank you for the question, Councilmember.

Um I I think I would like to take a step back in a sense and recognize the question.

Well, I would like to recognize that I think this issue around horse-drawn carriages in Central Park has been an ongoing discourse for many administrations now.

It doesn't matter whether it's a discourse, we're based like we're doing things based on facts.

And if you had information about that that supports the elimination of the industry, you would have put it in your statement you did not.

The bell rang.

I uh I I yield.

I I think that's the same.

No, no, no, no.

I would like to.

No, I am I I I get to ask the questions.

I you know, close with a statement.

You don't get to say anything now.

Thank you, Councilmember Wool.

I intend to comment that um, I didn't ask for comments, I was for facts and I go my colleagues' testimony that the administration supports a winding down this industry.

Um we recognize that's your full statement.

That that's all you have is that is you know, is that the mayor wants it.

I like to operate based on fact and what you've guys done to enforce and recommend and you know recommendations that you might have made to make it say.

I didn't hear any of that in the testimony, and there is no dancing that's gonna get you out of that.

I think we have done significant efforts in the city over the many years.

How many carriages there are, how many horses are licenses?

We have all engaged in robust efforts to try and bring additional actionable summonses.

We have worked with the industry across multiple administrations to try and address what's happening.

The reality is not responsive, and he's just Council.

I'm not looking for a word salad here.

I'm looking for answers which I didn't get.

Councilmember, your time is up.

Um and you answered the question.

Yes?

Yes, Chair, thank you.

Okay, thank you.

Um Councilman, uh, I'm sorry, speaker men and chair.

So a number of questions.

Um, thank you for your testimony today.

So questions for DCWP.

Uh during the fatal incident uh involving Romance in June, the driver reportedly left the horse and carriage unattended to take a photograph of the family members after which the horse became startled and bolted.

What is the agency's both agencies' position on this incident?

Um the administrative code is very clear that drivers uh may not leave the horse unattended.

Uh that um the health department, as I noted in my testimony, provides the training course for aspiring carriage horse drivers, and we do include that key uh safety provision in that training.

Um the uh enforcement of that action uh is under review uh at the health department right now.

I would also add, uh speaker, please to to to echo uh I believe testimony that's been submitted by the mayor's office of animal welfare is that I think the incident overall um it goes back to the inherent challenges that exist when horses are working in these busy urban environments, and ultimately why I think the administration is supportive of a long-term solution to the horse strong carriage uh industry, keeping in mind, of course, um outcomes and pathways that are sustainable for the workers in this industry as well, which is of critical importance for the Department of Consumer Worker Protection as well.

Thank you.

Okay.

You mentioned in your testimony, the health department testimony, about worker protections in the bill, which is something I am focused on as well.

What are the specific worker protections?

And I guess why is that testimony coming not from DCWP?

Thank you, Speaker.

I I think um for the just for an operational side, just have one testimony to represent the administration's position.

Okay.

Of course, I'm here to comment on on the worker touch point as well.

Um, certainly I I think to provide some concrete feedback, workforce development, and not necessarily something that the that DCBP engages in now.

There are many other agencies that do that work.

Notwithstanding, we would like to be actively involved in this conversation as well as it relates to outcomes for the workers and ensuring that we have sustainable pathways forward for them.

Is there specific language that the administration is recommending?

I don't have language available at this time, but I think as we move through the legislative process, we will be providing language.

Okay.

How many workers would be affected by the ban?

We obviously know how many licenses DCWP has.

We've been looking at the open data portal, but I want to get on the record this information, which is why I'm asking these questions.

So, how many workers would be affected by a ban?

Included carriage drivers, stable workers, and other staff.

I'm apologies, speaker.

I don't know if I have the stable worker numbers.

I do know that there are um there are 208 licensed horse-drunk carriage drivers.

Uh my understanding from public reporting is that approximately 170 of them are engaging in the work uh day in, day out.

Okay.

And what does the administration's view in terms of the proper phase out timeline that both agencies would recommend?

Do you agree with the language in the bill currently?

Do you believe differently?

I I think and just permit me to confer with my colleague.

I I don't think we have concerns necessarily with the phase-out timeline itself.

I think a setting such as this um to hear from the stakeholders, whether that's industry and workers and other advocates, is an important, it's an important step in legislative process to know if the timeline is appropriate.

Okay.

And what are the administration's plans to support the workers?

Well, I think um we're having ongoing conversations with our partners in labor about um what outcomes we can support, what outcomes we can um what we can do to support outcomes for workers.

I'm sorry.

Um I know I've heard I've heard of your public uh comments recently as well, Speaker, about uh securing employment for workers as well.

I think for us, all options are on the table.

Uh we want to make sure that this works.

Okay.

Okay, I'm gonna turn it back over to Councilmember Shuman.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Um, I want to say that we've been joined by Council members Feliz, Maloney, and Brewer.

Uh so how many carriage horses are currently licensed and operating in New York City?

Please provide the number of horses, the number of stables, the number of carriage licenses, and drivers.

I guess that's divided between the two of you.

Uh yes.

Um, as of the end of June, we had just under 160 horses licensed, and there are three stables that serve the industry.

The former mayor issued executive order 56 directing agencies to prepare for the cessation of horse joined carriages in New York City.

What inspections or other work did DOHMH begin?

How much was completed, and what continued after the order was rescinded?

Uh we conduct uh routine inspections of the stables, uh, routine inspections of horses, uh, both at the stables and uh these are sort of observations of the horses as well as inspections uh of paperwork, um, and also we make periodic observations at the hack stands.

I would also add, Chair, that DCP conducts uh compliance inspections three times a year on each of the carriages, and um to to touch upon your your other part of your question.

I know that the previous administration and and the Blasi administration, I would say my entire career in city government that we've been working on this issue as well.

Okay, thank you.

Over the past five years, how many horses have been removed from service due to medical concerns?

So it is uh it is a very routine uh process for us to uh take in um complaints often by video um to make observations ourselves or to take in referrals from uh NYPD, which is often uh at the hack stands, and we will uh depending on our veterinarian's assessment of those, we will require the owner to have its uh veterinarian uh assess the horse, and during that time the horse is not in service, and we require the veterinarian to the owner to provide the veterinarian's uh determination before the horse can be returned to work.

Um I do not I do not have the count.

We can continue to work on that um to try to provide it.

We we want the count, so we want you to get that to us.

And I want to know what are the most common concerns that lead to removal.

Um I can say some of the common concerns uh would me that the horse is is lame, for example, and we might we might see a video that either shows that it is or that it needs further assessment to be able to determine that.

That would be a common uh consideration.

Okay.

DOHMH is responsible for enforcing requirements governing stable conditions, including adequate heating and ventilation, sufficient sh food and drinking water, and minimum stall dimensions.

Over the past five years, how many violations has DOHMH issued for failure to comply with stable requirements?

And please provide a breakdown by violation type.

If you don't have it here, then you need to send it to us.

But answer whatever you can answer right now.

Um we do make uh routine um inspections of the stables two to three times a year.

I don't have the uh violation numbers, so we will get back to you.

Okay.

How many staff does DOHMH currently employ to inspect and oversee horse carriage stables?

We have six health inspectors who work in our veterinary uh public health program.

Uh they do a variety of work, including uh the inspections of the horse carriages, and we have equine veterinarians we work with on a contract basis.

How many stables repeatedly failed inspections or required corrective action plans?

The stables have not uh required corrective action plans.

Okay.

Local law 203 of 2019 prohibits horse carriages from working when the temperature is 90 degrees or above, or when the temperature is 80 degrees and the equine heat index reaches 150 or above since the law took effect, how many written warnings and violations has DOHMH issued for noncompliance um what I can tell you is the suspensions in the last three years?

Uh there have been 102 weather related suspensions in the last three years.

I'd like to confer with NYPD uh on violations.

Uh they are typically at the hack stands at the time of the suspension.

Um and so I wanted like would like to check with them to see uh to get you a full count.

We have not issued uh violations for violating the suspension, but it is typically NYPD who is actually on site at the hack stand.

So let me let me confer with them to be able to provide that.

Okay, how does DOHMH monitor compliance when temperatures approach the statutory thresholds?

I'm sorry, I missed the beginning of your question.

How does DOHMH monitor compliance when temperatures approach the statutory thresholds?

Um so we are uh when we when we know that it is a day where we are uh potentially going to reach one of those thresholds.

The horses have been suspended today, yes.

Okay.

Um we are we are monitoring um the weather.

Um the administrative code sets out very specific uh protocols for how to measure that temperature, including the kind type of equipment that the health department is required and the NYPD are required to use, so we do have that uh equipment that the uh council has required.

And so we take those measurements um as the uh as we understand the temperature uh threshold may be approaching um and and that lets us be able to suspend the activity uh when that threshold is met.

How often are readings taken?

I will have to get back to you about the number of times the the readings are are taken.

Global temperatures are rising, and New York City is increasingly experiencing extreme heat and high humidity.

How many days in 2025 and 2026 were carriage horses prohibited from working because the temperature reached 90 degrees or the Aquine Heat Index reached the threshold?

What I have is the total weather-related suspensions.

There is also a cold weather threshold, and we also will suspend for other extreme weather conditions, for example, if the paths are icy.

Um so I have the total numbers.

In 2025, it was 28, and 2026 from January to June 19.

Okay.

DOHMH administers the horse-drawn carriage operators course, which includes testing for safe driving practices.

Horses can become startled by bicycles, scooters, vehicles, and other unexpected activity.

What training do drivers receive on responding to a horse that becomes frightened of bolts?

Is that response tested as part of the driver training?

Um so our the course that we uh administer uh as a prerequisite for the DCWP uh license includes information about uh horse behavior and maintaining control of the horse, and as I noted, it also includes training uh that it is prohibited under the administrative code to leave a horse uh unattended.

Um and there is a written component, a classroom component to the exam, the and the aspiring driver has to pass a test at the end of the classroom component, and then there is a practical component with a horse and our uh equine veterinarian um where then that is the opportunity for the aspiring driver to demonstrate that they are able to uh uh manage the horse uh properly.

Okay, does DOHMH believe there are any inherent risks that cannot be addressed through DOHMH's carriage operators training course?

I will say that the course is uh uh designed to be comprehensive to uh teach the aspiring driver about uh horse anatomy to uh look for for signs of of illness uh and other issues and to address uh to cover the uh health and safety requirements of the multiple uh city agencies.

I would I would add to that, Chair that echoing the testimony um that was submitted by the mayor's office of animal welfare that there seem to be inherent challenges with operating um the horse-drawn carriages uh in New York City in a busy urban environment in situations where we have exacerbated weather uh situations now because of climate change.

I think these do pose inherent challenges to the industry.

That is uh as a part of this conversation.

Thank you.

During the fatal incident in June, the driver stepped away from the carriage.

We understand that this goes against safety protocols and violates DOT rules, which require the driver to hold the reins at all times.

Are these safety protocols identified in the horse-drawn carriage operators course?

They are.

It is also it is very clear in the administrative code as well that the drivers are required, are prohibited from leaving the horse unattended.

It is covered in our course.

How is the curriculum for the course developed and what experts are consulted on its development?

Um the course uh uh was developed uh by our equine veterinarians in consultation with many others, with for example the ASPCA, uh NYPD, and our agency colleagues because it covers uh it addresses the the regulations that live in many other agencies codes is DOHMH considering any updates to its protocols to prevent future incidents.

The um the laws, the regulations, and the protocols are all designed to uh prohibit the incidents.

Uh we conduct outreach and education.

We have delivered notices to the stables for posting to remind drivers that they cannot leave the horse unattended.

Uh I I would I would add to that as well.

I think that the administration is certainly open to changes we can make, marginal changes we can make around the edges to try and reform this industry in the short term.

But the long term question I think is is what is paramount right now and and winding down the industry.

Ultimately, I think that if there's in general in the work that we do at DCDP, if there's business activity that is causing harm, we cannot necessarily think first of like how do we facilitate the activity continuing.

I think our first question, the hard question the government has to ask itself is how do we stop the harm?

Um and so I think that's part of the that's that's how we want to approach this with the guiding principles, of course, of ensuring that worker outcomes are protected, um that the animal outcomes are protected as well.

Thank you.

Um the horse-drawn carriage operators course is offered four times a year in 2025.

How many people enrolled in the course?

Um I do I do want to note that we have not been able to meet that four-time a year offering of late.

Uh we have equine veterinarians uh on contract.

We have not been able to uh uh hire as a staff person um to fulfill that role.

So we are a little constrained in being able to offer it four times a year.

Um in 2025, 18 people took the course.

So how many times a year do you do it since you don't have the it it has varied, so let me get you let me get you the last couple of years, but it has varied because of the staffing constraints.

Is that being addressed?

I mean, I know we have this bill on the but is that being addressed?

We we have been um actively recruiting for an equine veterinarian.

Okay.

Um just to reiterate, we do have equine veterinarians, they are just uh on a contract, and so that that can hamper the number of times we can offer the course.

Okay.

Uh drivers speak multiple languages, including Spanish, Turkish, and Tajik.

In what languages is the course offered, and are there gaps in language access?

Uh there are there are gaps in language access.

It is an English language course.

Is there a fee to register for the course?

What about for any quest materials or examinations?

It is a $25 course.

And that includes course materials and everything else, or I think that's the total course uh cost, but if if there's something additional, I'll I'll uh I'll correct that, but I believe it's total of $25.

Please describe the practical examination component of the course.

What does this exam consist of and who conducts it?

The practical exam is conducted by an equine veterinarian uh with the horse, um, and the driver needs to demonstrate um, for example, the proper fitting of the bridle and the harness, um, proper hitching and unhitching, um, managing and control of the horse.

The committee has heard from many and animal sanctuaries across the country that have stated they are willing to accept the horses in the event that the industry is phased out.

Is DOHMH equipped to coordinate with city agencies, sanctuaries, and animal welfare organizations to transition horses to safe and caring homes and to ensure that none are sold or disposed of in a manner that leads to slaughter and mistreatment?

So the bill would require the health department to collect uh information about sanctuaries and uh and similar uh organizations and people and to provide that information to the owners and then to collect certifications from the owner uh owners about the disposition of their horse.

We are reviewing the bill.

Um so we don't have exactly the details for how we would implement that, but we would be prepared to implement uh should the bill pass.

That's what I'm asking you.

If you're prepared and do you need do you need other resources to facilitate that?

Um we haven't we haven't fully evaluated um the requirements of the bill, we are still reviewing.

How many staff positions does DOHMH dedicate to carriage horses?

So we have six inspectors who work on this industry but also other animal-related industries, and then we have uh you know uh program leads, administrative staff, and then equine veterinarians on contract.

If the council an acts intro 943, does DOHMH have a plan to transition those staff?

So these staff work on a number of different programs, and so um there's no concern about um having them have there's there will be other work for them to do.

Please describe how DOHMH communicates and works with DCWP to enforce local laws governing the carriage horse industry.

Is there a multi-agency team that regularly coordinates on enforcement trainings and emergency response?

We do communicate regularly with the many agencies that have a role uh in the in oversight of the industry.

I would add to that, I know I've personally participated in um uh a citywide task force that is a central uh that is folk focused on Central Park and issues as it relates, particularly horse shown carriages.

Uh that also work happens in coordination with local stakeholders as well.

Are any other agencies such as Parks and NYPD involved in this process?

Yes, they are both part.

The rental horse advisory board is required to advise the commission on regulations affecting the health safety and welfare of carriage horses and the public.

Has the advisory board met in recent years, and if so, what recommendations or actions has it taken to improve passenger safety?

Um so the advisory board um is established in the local law.

Um it has been constituted.

There isn't a formal role for the health department beyond uh once the health commissioner has designated the members.

Um so we are aware of meetings, but we don't we don't have a role in those meetings, so I can't speak to um really their meeting schedule.

There have they not delivered um uh recommendations to the commissioner, uh, the health commissioner in in many many years.

The rental horse advisory board is required to advise the commissioner on regulations affecting the health safety and welfare of carriage horses in the public.

What?

Oh, I did, I'm sorry.

Um yeah, sorry about that.

Does the agency envision any potential challenges?

So should intro 943 be enacted?

Um we are continuing to uh review the bill, but as you have heard um from uh both Deputy Commissioner Ortiz and myself, the administration supports the bill with um some interest in continuing to discuss some of the provisions with the council.

Okay, I'm gonna ask some questions for you, Carlos.

How many active carriage owner licenses exit ex currently?

Our research shows the number at 52.

There are 68 carriage licenses currently.

Okay, Chair.

How many carriages are currently in operation?

Uh I'm not sure how much are operating throughout the day, but uh, there's 68 that are authorized to work.

Is that number different than the number of owner licenses?

Sixty should correspond to the it is the owner license.

Okay.

But is that different from what's in operation?

That's what I'm asking.

So there are 68 licenses that um relate to the carriage, those the owner licenses.

Uh there are 208 licenses for drivers.

Um I wouldn't say every driver is operating every every day.

Uh the carriages, I think it fluctuates based on what the owner wants to put out that day.

What is the average value of a carriage owner license?

Now we looked over the bills of sales.

Uh I think on average there's over the many years there's maybe 70,000 approximately.

I think that that could fluctuate.

It could be there could be different uh negotiating terms in each contract.

So it's something we can continue to evaluate with the council.

Okay.

Are owner licenses transferable?

If so, how uh they are transferable.

Um, right now there's a cap on the category that I think was instituted for 10 or so years ago.

Um it requires an agreement between the the previous owner and then the and the new one and the notification to the agency as well.

What happens to an owner license if it expires?

Can it be renewed?

Yes, uh if uh I believe we we're able to issue up to the cap, uh which is 68.

So there's an expiration, we'd be able to issue a license.

Can expired licenses be recovered in any way?

There's typically once there's a there's typically a uh grace period we provide after an expiration to allow a business to come back in and renew.

This is applicable to all of our categories.

Uh the grace period is 59 days.

Um if you're coming back for a license after the 59 day period, uh generally you're gonna have to get a new license.

Right, thank you.

Councilmember Mate.

Thank you, Chair.

Uh last year the Department of Health ordered an independent veterinarian to inspect the stables and test the horses.

What was the process in choosing that veterinarian?

Uh in late 2025, the health department undertook a pilot initiative to conduct uh exams, clinical exams as part of our stable inspection.

So we put out a solicitation uh broadly to uh uh sending it to uh equine veterinarians we could identify in New York State and the surrounding states.

We uh there was one response.

Okay.

And so you say that this veterinarian was completely independent from the administration, willing to do the work with an independent mindset.

Uh the veterinarian who responded to the solicitation met the requirements of the solicitation, which was that they were not uh we wanted someone who was not engaged already in um in the industry.

And can you elaborate on the investigation and the findings of the veterinarian?

Um the veterinarian did an assessment of 12 horses um and following the um the um the same the the administrative code sets out really a lot of the details, the details for the assessment that a veterinarian needs to do of the horse to show that the horse is fit to work in the industry, and so this um veterinarian was uh doing that same assessment with the caveat that it these assessments were conducted um in uh the stable.

So there were some limitations um because of that environment.

And is 12 an average amount of inspection inspection of horses that typically happen, or is that far below the average if someone were to go and investigate fully uh the stables and the horses the pilot program that we did uh at the end of 2025 looked at uh was was completed for 12 horses.

Okay.

Um I have a question for Mr.

Ortiz.

Um would the administration be open to a shorter phase out period if we included worker protections that will allow workers to find new employment sooner?

I I think I think we would have to discuss.

Um I'm certainly encouraged by by the perspective of ensuring that we have pathways for for workers.

Um I think on balance we'd have to review um the bill in totality um to see if a shorter phase out um is accomplished.

It was something we can accomplish.

But I think we're very much open to to ideas right now on the table for this.

Um one final question.

All right, I'll I'll come back.

Thank you, Tim.

Yeah, ask the one final question, but we're trying to keep on time here because we have a lot of people testifying.

I respect I don't need to ask this question.

I respect that.

Okay.

All right.

Um council member, uh, before I do that, I just want to say one thing.

Um, you know, I'm a big fan of um, well, two things.

One is we've been joined by council member Hanif.

The other is that I'm a big fan of DOHMH, but I'm disappointed at the data questions that we asked that we didn't get answers to because those questions were submitted to you guys beforehand.

So I just want to make mention of that.

Um I'm gonna ask uh council member Epstein to ask questions.

Uh thank you, Chair, and thank you, Speaker.

Uh can I just ask about the six staff?

You said they are working in other industries.

What percentage of their time or are dealing with uh horse issues for the six staff?

I don't I don't have a uh percentage of time.

I I would estimate what's probably equivalent to one FTE.

One FTE for all the horses.

Right.

Thank you very much.

Um Carlos, can I talk about the transitions?

You flagged the concerns about making sure there's sufficient worker protections in this transition.

When you say that, when you when you say worker protections, do you mean helping them transition to a new industry or transition into a related industry just without the horses?

I I think it's it's really about securing outcomes for the workers.

So I think a transition into employment, I think is something that we'd be interested in exploring.

I know it's come up in our conversations with labor partners.

Um I know the bill already completes work contemplates workforce development, for example.

Right.

So I I think that's that's what we're referring to.

So workforce development, but you they could be in this industry uh like tourism or within a separate industry, is that what you're flagging?

I I think well, I think part of that conversation needs to happen with with workers as well in terms of what industries they want to be moving into and and um yeah, I think that's an important question for them.

I think we are certainly open to facilitating what outcomes they need.

And what is your timeline for that?

Just so obviously this is you know a pressing issue.

Uh fortunately we've already just had a loss of life.

So are you thinking that conversation is gonna be happening in the next couple of weeks?

I think the conversations are already happening on this, and I think the timeline will have to align with with the prospective timeline for this bill to be age and engage in the legislative process.

All right, thank you very much, and thank you, Chair.

Okay, I do uh Chair.

I just want to clarify my my comment on the work on our staff with about our health inspectors.

There are other staff who who work in the industry who work on this uh industry as well, reviewing documentation, and as I mentioned, our equine veterinarians.

Yeah, with one full-time equivalent of person going out.

For a health for the health inspector, I just want to make sure that was clear thing.

Thank you.

Helpful.

Thank you.

Uh Councilmember Wilson.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you for your testimony.

Um so I live across the street from the stables in Hill's Kitchen.

I they the stables are called our homed in District 3.

So I see the horses quite a bit walking to and from the park every morning, and you know, my partner is a lifelong equestrian, so horse care is like very important to me and my family.

So I have a couple of questions about the transition for the the horses.

Uh I respect that you said you're still putting this together, but you mentioned in your testimony that you would collect information about the sanctuaries or I guess retirement farms that these horses would go to.

So uh approximately how long will that process take?

And once that's given to the drivers, will that be the list of who they can go to, or would they be allowed to find other homes for the horses?

So the bill specifies the gives the department direction for uh information to collect and to provide to the owners.

We are still looking at that, and uh should the bill pass, uh which as you know we support uh with caveats, um, we would be refining that that process.

So would there be any once the horses there is thought to how would there be any follow-up at the sanctuaries or retirement homes, retirement farms to ensure that they're they are indeed being taken care of?

So I think we're continuing to review the bill to assess that.

Okay.

I guess my point is that you know it's it's very nice to say that they you know they'll be transitioned and sent to a retirement farm or sanctuary, but oftentimes there's more to it than that for the well-being of the horses.

The transition from one environment to another can be disruptive, and we'd want to just make sure that they are actually being taken care for, and it's not just a line written on the page, but something the city continues to follow up on to ensure.

I think that point is well taken, uh, council member, and and um we're also encouraged that that our colleagues in the mayor's office of animal welfare have already received outreach from equestrian um sanctuaries uh to engage in this work, but I think um even as we phase out, it'll have to be an interest interdisciplinary and multi-agency effort uh and ensuring, for example, that that office is involved and and and running checks on this is important too.

Okay, thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much.

Councilmember Morano?

Thank you, Chair, for your uh willingness to hold this hearing.

I know it's been a long time coming.

I also want to thank the speaker for her leadership on this issue.

I know uh it takes a lot of courage to be the first sitting speaker to take this particular position on this issue, but um aside from taking a position that I happen to agree with, I want to commend you for the really responsible way in which you're addressing concerns about job loss and things of that nature and not seeking to demagogue the issue at all.

And it's a it's a tough thing to do, and I want to thank you for your leadership on that.

Uh I'd also be remiss if I didn't mention the leadership of former councilman Holden, and had we acted on this legislation when he was in the council, uh perhaps a young man would still be alive today.

Uh that being said, uh thank you, Deputy Commissioner, for your testimony, and to the extent that you need Mr.

Ortiz to assist you with my questions, please just have them do so.

Uh I want to start with something in your testimony that really jumped out at me.

You tell us the health department reviews health certificates.

Uh you check that horses are examined every four to eight months, you review furlough records, you make periodic observations, you monitor weather, you issue weather-related suspensions, and you actually conduct the training course that aspiring carriage drivers must complete.

That's a lot of regulation, and yet an 18-year-old young man is dead.

So I want to ask you a question that I don't mean rhetorically at all.

At what point does a regulator have an obligation to say, well, we've regulated this activity as much as we reasonably can, and the inherent risk remains.

So I would say that the health department is exercising the authority that the city council has given to us.

And um my understanding is that is that is your question is why we are here today.

Right, and because I keep hearing proposals for another inspection, another training requirement, another rule, another layer of enforcement.

I'm wondering, can you identify for me a regulation that would eliminate a horse's instinct to bolt when frightened?

I think I think uh sorry I think council member, this is I would say this is probably the the third administration I've worked in now where we as administration supportive of winding down this industry.

And I think your point is well taken that you know we could be working on the margins to try and address what's happening in the industry uh to find short-term solutions, but ultimately we as administration are supportive of a long-term solution that uh protects the conditions of workers, uh, the horses and New Yorkers.

Let me ask you something else, and I'll be considerative of everyone else's time.

If there were no horse-drawn carriage industry in New York City today, and someone came to your department with a proposal to create one to place large prey animals in one of the most heavily visited urban parks in the world, attach open passenger carriages to them and sell rides to the public, knowing everything your department knows today.

Would the health department recommend that the city approve that new industry?

Um it is uh you're you're in the what you imply is is well taken, and I think as uh my colleague is saying, that is why we are here today.

Thanks very much.

Thank you very much, Councilmember Morano.

Next is Councilmember Narcis.

Um thank you, Chair, and first foremost, thank you, Madam Speaker and the family.

I feel you thank you so much for being here, being present and using the time to let us know what's going on with you.

It's difficult time.

And as a mother of four, I can feel you sitting here.

Um is it difficult for me to even let me go to the question.

This is a you know, listening to you is just in my head.

Um, what is the administration's plan for the horses themselves?

Um, rehoming, sanctuaries, placement oversight, and who is financially responsible for that transition?

That's one.

The bill that we have here on our hands, focus on the license of the drivers, what happens to the staple?

I mean, the stable hands and other workers um local hundred 100 and the union have said the industry supports.

Are they eligible for any of this transition benefits?

Third, what specific industries or role is DCWP targeting for placement.

Is this a real pipeline into union jobs or a genetic resume workshop programs?

Do you know?

Uh I'll start I'll start with the questions about the horses, and the bill is quite uh detailed, uh directing the health department to collect information uh about where the horses uh might go and to provide that information to the owners, and then uh requiring that the owners certify to the disposition of the horses and and uh provide that uh certification to the health department, we are still reviewing uh those provisions and to determine exactly how we would do that should the bill pass, and as Deputy Commissioner Ortiz mentioned, uh, and I agree, we would work very closely with the mayor's office of animal welfare on that.

And I would add, council member, you know, the bill already describes um a workforce development program for horse-strong carriage drivers and other workers engaged in the business of operating such horse-shawn cabs.

To me, that I mean I'm encouraged that the council is already drafted or is keeping these workers in mind, both the drivers and the stable hands.

I think we want to make sure that that that is preserved throughout a final version of the bill uh in whichever mechanism we decide to be able to support the workers.

Tough one.

What could have done here in this situation to prevent the death of this young man?

You know, as the speaker uh eloquently articulated, this was preventable.

The council has set out a law that clearly says that a horse must be uh attended to, cannot be left unattended.

And one life is too many.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much.

Councilmember Brewer.

Thank you very much.

Couple of questions.

One is just in terms of how does health department how and NYPD, how do they communicate?

You said that when there is a situation where the health department has perhaps given some summons, um, but the NYPD does the actual violations, depending on the in situation.

How does that communication take place?

Um we're in regular communication with NYPD, um, particularly on days like uh today and yesterday where we know it's we're most likely going to uh meet reach those uh weather thresholds, those temperature and um temperature and humidity thresholds.

So it is routine.

What I what I meant to say about the summons is that we are not necessarily at the hack stands at the time that those suspensions occur.

So in order to provide the chair with uh full information about violations, I wanted to be able to get that to talk to NYPD first.

Okay, so you basically back and forth with email situations.

Emails, phone calls, uh you know, not only during the business day, off hours, weekends, it is a regular communication.

Okay.

I would also add go ahead.

I'm sorry, Councilmember.

Go ahead, Carl.

I would just add through the the processes of having this joint task force that we've had centralized uh in Central Park, D C D P has also facilitated trainings that we provide uh the Central Park Command and uh Parks Enforcement Patrol as well on what issues they need to look out for as they conduct their on street or in park enforcement.

Okay, thank you.

Other cities in the in the briefing paper talks about Philly and other places.

My issue is workers.

In some cases, they've had job fairs, they're much smaller numbers.

I think it were 10 people who actually, or Chicago was even fewer.

Um, but have you looked to see what worker programs have been effective in other cities, or they're too small to even consider because you have obviously many more uh we thus far the CP has not looked into other worker programs.

Um I know we've had initial conversations with our colleagues, such as at the mayor's office of talent workforce development that will have feedback on on how to build a sustainable program.

Um but I think if if there's lessons to be learned from other municipalities about how they transitioned out, we are certainly open to taking that feedback.

I mean, obviously the briefing paper had some, you could get the same, but there were some ideas there.

Um I've been on this bill, I've been the city council 2002, a long time, and I've been on this bill except when there was an electric car.

I am absolutely opposed to any car more in Central Park.

I'm the author of the bill to get them out.

So I want to make sure that the administration is not talking about electric cars or anything like it in terms of this discussion.

I this far have had no conversations on my end related to electric cars.

Health department.

Nor have I, and I did not see that in the bill.

Okay.

I know it's not in the bill.

I want to make sure nobody pops up with it.

Okay, and then the other we got workers, horses, uh jobs, and tourists.

And so I am supportive of uh tourists using petty cabs.

Is that something that you support?

Have you had any thoughts about it?

Obviously, we have legislation that hasn't been finalized, but we're thinking about it.

Um is that something that you think could address the need for tourists?

I take petty cabs, you should see me.

I know how to do it.

But I know how to organize how much I pay.

So I'm just wondering what you're thinking about tourism for the future in Central Park.

I think petty cabs will still be uh an ongoing activity uh that's happening in Central Park.

You know, I I did notice a few months back, I think that the Midtown Community Justice Center released a report on recommendations as it relates to the petty cab industry.

I think many of the recommendations in there were well taken, and and certainly if we're looking to strengthen or improve the petty cab industry as a substitute in the future, uh TCUP will be ready to engage in that conversation too.

All right, they had a lot to do with that report, so I appreciate it.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much.

Councilmember Hanif.

Thank you, Chair.

I just want to begin by uh talking to the Mahajan family.

Thank you for being here.

I'm so sorry for your loss, and thank you for trusting the council with Romante's story.

I'm thinking of you and your family, and passing this piece of legislation is the most important thing that must come out of today's hearing, and we're grateful that the speaker and our mayor are supportive.

I'd like to know what oversight does DOHMH currently have over the health and welfare of carriage horses, and what are the limits of that authority?

And if you could keep it brief.

It's a big question.

The AND code is quite specific in the role in setting out the role of the health department and what we can require from the industry.

So there is uh uh as I mentioned in my testimony that's highlighting some of the key areas.

The uh horse owners are required to uh have veterinary exams every four to eight months and to uh submit uh certifications of those exams to us.

We are reviewing those.

They require to submit uh documentations showing proof of vacation furlough, five weeks a year uh at a place where there is a pasture opportunity for turnout.

The license is renewable, so there's all of those things that we are checking.

Got it.

And then is there a standardized criteria uh for determining when a horse is not fit?

Um there we have a form.

We have a certification form that a veterinarian uh licensed in New York State uh signs off on, and our equine veterinarian um reviews those.

How frequently are vets checking uh horses' help?

So the owner's vets, how so they are required.

Is there a DOHMH vet and then an owner's vet?

And what's the frequency?

So the administrative code requires a veterinarian check uh every four to eight months.

The owners uh have veterinarians who check their horses.

We have veterinarians who uh over who review those certifications.

A veterinarian would also be also, as I noted earlier, um, when we have um reason to think that there's need for an assessment uh of a horse because of our observation or something referred to us by NYPD, or we are observing uh based on a complaint.

We will also direct the owner to have the the veterinarian, its veterinarian assess the horse.

And are you able to share uh how many violations do HMH issued over the last five years for noncompliance or adherence to the many forms and check-ins?

Um I have the I have 2023 through April 2026.

Um for lacking uh record of a medical exam or uh the exam not within the time frame.

We've issued 17 summons, missing proof of five weeks of furlough.

Um we have 12.

I'll come back for a second round.

Okay, thank you.

Um Councilmember Wang.

Thank you.

Um thank you, Chair.

Um question regarding the mayor's executive order.

Um we get to that.

Um mayor Eric Adams issue executive order 56 in September 2025, directing your agency, uh that's DCWP to identify alternative employment for carriage workers between September 2025 and today.

Uh will any workers contacted?

And how many will offer services and how many were placed in new jobs?

Please answer that.

Thank you for the question, Councilmember.

Well, my understanding at the time is uh the first deputy mayor's office actually ended up taking the lead on engaging with the industry on winding down um uh pursuant to to the executive order.

I know they engaged in active conversations, particularly with labor partners, but also had staff uh operating in the field in Central Park to liais with workers.

Uh that's my understanding of the touch point of what uh mayor's uh the Adams administration ended up doing under that executive order.

So there's not the responsibility of DCW to reach out to the carriage workers or we work closely with them to provide them uh contact information data um and then the mayor's office ended up taking the lead on on the next steps on that.

You know, I think as I'm as I mentioned as well uh earlier in my in my testimony, um workforce development is not necessarily something that DCBP currently administers or engages in.

There are other agencies across the city uh that do that work.

Um uh and I think are are part of uh the conversation a part of the the administration's now response to implementing this bill.

All right, thank you.

Um question on the for the OHMH.

Your agency has been responsible for inspecting and licensing carriage horses in the city.

The the horse rider was clear as fit to work, yet was found to be nearly 30 years old and suffering from a neurological disease.

The horse lady died in the street.

Another horse, the niece died in the park.

Question.

How many inspections were conducted on each of these horses in the 12 months before their deaths?

And what did those inspections actually find?

Please answer that.

Um so um for Denise.

Um I did want to note that our uh the the report following Denise's death, uh as everyone will probably remember was that uh uh that horse had ingested a toxic uh plant.

Um and I did want to highlight that our course for drivers includes the parks department requirement that horses not disturb um the vegetation okay um well there were were there any inspections done on these horses?

So we can pull up we we can pull up the um uh the certifications that the horses veterinarians would have provided to us um in order to be to be licensed.

Okay, that thank you very much.

Councilmember Ariola, thank you, Chair, and uh thank you for coming to testify.

So I have a question.

Uh I would want to go back to the vet.

Uh who is the contracted vet for the Department of Health?

Um we have multiple contracted veterinarians.

Okay, who would be one that is a large animal veterinarian, uh an equine veterinarian?

Um the the veterinary the the veterinarians we have other veterinarians, the veterinarians I've been speaking about are equine veterinarians.

Do you know the names of those veterinarians?

Well, the one that you mo use most uh most of the time.

There are there are multiple veterinarians that equine veterinarians that we work with.

And do you have their names?

I would I would rather not provide their names here.

Why would that be the equ at the equine veterinarians uh work with us at the health department under contract and and I would prefer not to provide their names?

Is the reason why you do not want to provide their names is because they have been suspended in the past or relieved from their position at the ASPCA or have any type of history of using steroids in horses or submitting certificates that of examination for horses to the department without doing those exams?

Would that be why you wouldn't want to mention their names?

Um I'm not aware of those um the implications that you're making.

I don't I am trying to protect their privacy.

This is an this is an issue that is very important because part and parcel of why this um this legislation is so important is because we're just as concerned about the health of the horses, the health and well-being of the horses, and if we have compromised veterinarians that are checking the health of the horses before they're going out onto the street, then that is a problem.

That is why it's important that this committee, and perhaps you'd like to share those names with the chair privately so that that it's not made public.

I I I understand, I appreciate that.

I do want to say that the veterinarians that certify the horses as fit to work are not health department veterinarians, those are the veterinarians that the owners engage to be the veterinarians for their own horses.

And I don't have I don't have their names, but we would be happy to communicate private.

What oversight do you have over the veterinarians that the owners choose to examine their horses, which could benefit them if they got a very good health report on their horse?

So the um the horses need to be licensed in New York State and to sign off under their license, but again, to just remind everybody we are here to support uh the intent of this bill.

Okay, thank you.

We are here to provide reasons why the intent of this bill is necessary.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councilmember.

Uh Councilmember De La Rosa.

Thank you, Chair.

First, I want to thank the chair and the speaker for their leadership on this issue.

Certainly one that is important for us to be taking up today.

Um I'm the former labor chair of this council, and so last session we had a uh spirited discussion around labor protections, and it is a part of the bill that I am interested in in us digging into.

Um would you agree, Commissioners, that uh the horse-drawn carriage industry is part of the tourism industry in New York City.

I think historically it's been um a part of the tourist industry in New York City, yes.

Uh even including in in new uh outreach materials that we've developed at the age at the agency pursuant to council legislation.

We've incorporated uh um information on horse-drawn carriages.

Great, and I want to also join the choir of council members.

I think all of us are um reeling over the death of uh uh Roma and his family's pain is something that we all feel.

Um a lot of us here on the council, our parents, those of us that are in parents can certainly see the pain and the anguish in these families' um lives after this incident.

Um I want to ask you, however, about other families that have experienced similar deaths in New York City due to tourism related activities.

In April 10th, 2025, a sightseeing helicopter crashed into the Hudson, and six tourists in New York City were killed.

In July 2021, a pedicab driver was hit by an SUV.

The pedicab driver passed, and the two people who were in the petty cabs were injured.

Would the administration also be in favor of banning those industries as they exist today in New York City?

Thank you for the question, Councilmember.

You know, I I think uh to answer your question directly, uh this is not something that we're prepared to talk to you about today or and not something that we've been presented on to discuss.

I I don't think we're there yet necessarily with those industries.

Um albeit I I think we're we're open to any types of reforms I could say to the pedicab industry, for example.

I think when it comes to horse drawn carriages, I think your initial question, is it a part of the tourist industry in New York City?

Yes.

I think what this hearing is about is should it be?

And our position is that it should not be.

Um ultimately there's a tragic death, and I I'm a father as well, and I can't imagine the pain that that that the family's feeling right now.

And on top of that, there's been deaths of animals, and it's seemingly happening every year.

Uh after robust efforts that many administrations have made to try and reform this industry.

I think we are past the point of reform of the industry, and we're now a place of of looking to wind down the industry, keeping in mind uh the livelihoods of workers and how we can phase those out responsibly as well.

I appreciate your response.

I would urge us to also look at those other industries because one death is one too many, whether it's a human death, an animal death, a person on a helicopter's death, you know, all of these people come to New York City to take advantage of the amenities that New York City have to offer.

And these activities have been part of the cultural and touristic experiences of of people who come all over the world to visit our city.

So as we look to reform this industry, we should also be taking a look at those other industries.

I know Gail is brave and will get in a petty cab, but if an accident happens two years from now in a petty cab in Central Park, then we will be in this same position.

And I maintain that if previous administrations would have done what they needed to do in 2026, we would not be here having this conversation once again.

It's easy to say we could have passed a bill one year ago.

We could have passed the bill 10 years ago.

And still here we are in 2026.

So it is on all of us as we legislate to also look at what future industry issues could arise so that we're not creating a situation where we're uh ending one industry in exchange for another industry that is equally unsafe.

Well, DCVP, I should say, has never shied away from a hard conversation about what we have to do in the city to improve outcomes for New Yorkers.

And in particular, I would just stress that the ethos of our agency is to deliver concrete outcomes that improve the lives of New Yorkers.

So that's a conversation that the council wants to have about those industries that we regulate in particular.

I I am quite willing to have that conversation.

Great.

I appreciate it.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Councilmember Feliz.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair, for this hearing, and thank you, DOH and DCWP uh for your testimony for all the work you've been doing on this issue.

Just want to start by briefly speaking in favor of the legislation.

We've seen a lot of issues related to these horse carriages.

Uh animal welfare issues, including horses literally dying in our streets.

Also escalating public safety incidents, including the incident that we saw last month.

So just want to thank everyone who has joined today, and also everyone who has been in this fight since day one.

So a few questions first about on the workers and also then on the uh the horses.

So you mentioned there's approximately 170 workers in the horse carriage industry.

What was the last part of the question?

I'm sorry.

I'm not sure if I'm aware of the salary.

I think that would be helpful to learn through this hearing process.

Um I think we see we see horse showing carriages out there throughout the year.

Um, albeit there are uh limitations when there are severe weather weather conditions that my colleague referred to on when they can operate.

There are also time restrictions that have been put in place.

They are geographic restrictions that have been put in place in this industry over the very many years.

Right, so would you say this is seasonal employment?

Let's say like eight months out of the 12 months per year.

I'm I'm not sure if I if I can speak to the if it's seasonal or not.

Would you say it could potentially be possible to, for example, if it's 200 workers?

We obviously have a lot, as you know, we've obviously have a lot of vacancies in almost every single city agency.

Do you think it could potentially be possible to bring all of these workers to our city agencies, or do we see any obstacles that are foreseeable?

I'm not sure um I know that the city hiring processes itself um, I guess it would depend on what role, and certainly people can apply to positions that are available right now, and they can sign up for civil service exams right now.

Um these these uh this option already exists for workers across the city.

A few questions related to the horses.

How many incidents related to medical issues have we had in the last more or less two years that you're aware of?

So the the administrative code does not require reporting to us of medical incidents.

So that is part of the challenge in responding to some of the data questions.

We certainly uh follow the news and uh get complaints that we follow up on and get referrals from NYPD.

The administrative code does not allow horses to be worked when they are ill or injured.

Um so that that's part of why we don't what why we don't have a count.

There have been counts uh in the press of incidents, um, and we would have those same counts based on our review of of new, you know, the news that we monitor.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you very much.

Um give us one second.

We're trying to see, we think one of uh um one of the members is online, we're just trying to check on that.

So give us a second.

Oh, all right.

Um, I want to thank the admin.

Um, we're gonna take a five-minute break, and then we're gonna resume with the rest of the testimony.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, please find your seats.

The hearing's about to rebegin.

All right, everyone.

We're back in session.

I want to call up to call up State Senator Eric Bocha.

It's just me up here.

It's just you because you're, I don't know, your colleagues were supposed to come, I don't know where they are, but go ahead now.

Where the horse carriage stables are located and parts of Central Park where these carriages operate every day.

Councilmember Carl Wilson, Councilmember Gilbrewer, we witness fifteen hundred pound animals pulling carriages, nose to tailpipe through Manhattan gridlock, behind buses, trucks, taxis, through construction sites.

Instead, his family experienced the most unimaginable unimaginable tragedy.

His death made clear what many of us have known for years.

I want to make a very important point that this bill is the best path forward for the workers.

Now is the time to help them transition before the industry's decline leaves them with fewer options.

Waiting only makes this transition harder.

As we move forward, the carriage drivers must be part of this process.

They must be kept informed every step of the way and have a seat at the table and be given access to new employment opportunities with the wages, benefits, health care, and job security that they do not currently have.

Finally, I want to say that it is so important that we do not demonize each other during this process.

That includes the drivers, the stable owners, the union, the animal welfare advocates, and the elected officials.

I had full-page ads taken out against me in the New York Post, and they were really nasty.

But leadership sometimes comes with a political cause, and I want to thank all of you for your courage.

And I know that one day we'll look back at this moment and be proud that New York City chose compassion, safety, and common sense.

I urge you to pass this legislation as soon as possible.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Senator.

Um, I was sub I apologize.

I was supposed to read something before the senator spoke, so I'll do it now.

I want to thank the members of the administration who were here earlier.

Um, we are now opening the hearing for public testimony.

I want to remind members of the public that this is a government proceeding and that decorum shall be observed at all times.

As such, members of the public shall remain silent at all times.

The witness table is reserved for people who wish to testify.

No video recording or photography is allowed from the witness table.

Furthermore, members of the public may not present audio or video recordings as testimony, but may submit transcripts of such recording to the sergeant in arms for inclusion in the hearing record.

If you wish to speak at today's hearing, please fill out an appearance card with the sergeant at arms and wait to be recognized.

When recognized, you'll have two minutes to speak on introduction 943.

If you have a written if you have a written statement or additional written testimony you wish to submit for the record, please provide a copy of that testimony to the sergeant at arms.

You may also email written testimony to testimony at council.nyc.gov within 72 hours of the adjournment of this hearing.

Audio and video recordings will not be accepted.

Oh, yeah, no.

Um, I'm gonna ask um Assemblymember Rosenthal to please come up and testify.

Thank you.

Okay, it's on now.

Great, great.

Um, Chair Shulman, Councilmember Marte, esteemed members of the Health Committee.

Um, good afternoon.

I'm Assemblymember Linda B.

Rosenthal.

I'm chair of the Assembly Housing Committee, and I proudly represent the Upper West Side and parts of Hell's Kitchen, as well as parts of Central Park, where tragically Ramanch Mahajan, an 18-year-old tourist from India died after being thrown from horse carriage on June 17th, 2026.

I'm also an ardent animal rights champion who passed has passed many laws protecting the rights and lives of New York's uh def most defenseless creatures, yet despite our collective progress, we still have much to accomplish when it comes to protecting the city's carriage horses from injury and abuse.

And the way to safeguard these majestic creatures is to finally phase out the industry by passing Romanche's law.

In 2011, to combat the rising scourge of deaths and injuries of horses on our streets, I introduced state legislation to ban the use of horse carriages.

My intention was to spur the city to take action.

But up until today, despite promises and agreements, traffic collisions and dead horses, no bill has passed.

But no one gave up.

Charlie, Tickler, Billy, Blackjack, Lady, Denise, Spotty, Juliet, Smoothie, Clancy, Tommy, Aisha, Misty, and Ryder.

Those are the names of some of the horses that have died in New York City as a result of their forced employment.

There have been more than a hundred documented incidences of other horses being badly injured on the job.

Some have been hit by cars, motorcycles, and buses.

Others have been badly spooked, endangering the lives of riders, carriage drivers, pedestrians, and of course the horses themselves.

We can't wait for more horses or people to die on the streets in order to act.

Cities across the globe have far fewer tourist distractions, have shown us we don't have to tolerate animal abuse to turn a profit.

I will wind up by saying the New York City Council and the administration can put an end to this cruelty once and for all.

It's amazing what a change in administration and leadership can do.

I applaud Councilmember Marte, all the co-sponsors, and of course, the speaker for putting forth this bill that will not only ban this archaic practice, it will also help to transition current carriage drivers into new jobs.

One last thing today would not be possible without the unyielding support and dedication to this issue by all the advocates and to the many horses who have lost their lives.

Thank you for honoring the life of Romanch Mahajan.

We will ensure that his death will not be in vain.

It's high time we join other countries and cities in refusing to accept abuse as the cost of doing business.

Thank you so much.

Thank you very much, Assemblymember.

No, no clapping.

Folks, no you you can go like this, but no clapping, all right?

Okay.

Um, now I'm gonna call up the next panel, which is Ashley?

Burn.

Byrne.

Ashley Byrne, Ashley Byrne here, Edie Falco, Bob Holden, Adita.

Berncrant.

Oh, and then this is gonna be a hybrid panel, folks.

Um we also have somebody, Dr.

Craig Kulakowski is gonna be joining us remotely.

Yeah, sure.

Okay.

Who's going first?

Adidas.

Yeah, go ahead.

Members.

My name is Ashley Byrne, and I am here speaking on behalf of people for the ethical treatment of animals.

You cannot regulate the abuse and danger out of the horse-drawn carriage industry.

It is cruel and reckless to force a horse, a prey animal, to live and work in the noise, traffic, and chaos of New York City.

The carriage operators fight and flout the most mild and common sense rules, with little to no enforcement from the city, as you've heard today.

Oversight is almost non-existent.

Lame, sick, emaciated, elderly horses are regularly documented, being forced to pull carriages.

This hearing is taking place in the middle of what has already proved to be a deadly summer, delivered by the horse-drawn carriage industry.

The life of 18-year-old Romanch Mahajan was tragically added to the long death toll of horses whose lives have been claimed by this industry.

Some are names that we know well.

The footage of Ryder, Lady, and Denise collapsing in our streets sparked widespread outrage and calls for a ban.

Many more have died in anonymity, often sold to slaughter after spending their days in traffic being worked to exhaustion, and their nights in cramped, solitary, parking garage-like buildings, denied everything natural, enriching, and comforting to them.

New Yorkers have been fed up with this cruel, deadly industry for years, and polls have consistently shown that New Yorkers want the carriages banned.

We applaud Speaker Julie Menon for listening to New Yorkers and taking courageous action to move this ban forward.

Thank you to Councilmember Christopher Marte for sponsoring the bill, to committee chair Lynn Shulman for holding this hearing, and to the committee members for your strong inquiries into the practices of this industry.

And to the family of Roman Mahajan, we send our deepest condolences and gratitude.

It's time to pass Romanche's law.

Thank you.

Ms.

Falco.

Hi.

Oops.

Like that?

Yes.

Yeah.

My name is Edie Falco.

I am an actress and I'm an animal lover, an advocate.

For some reason, I was asked to be here today to tell people how I feel about this.

And I think I'm gonna go way out on a limb here and say from the deepest part of my heart.

These animals are not ours.

These animals are not ours.

They are not put on this planet to do our bidding.

It is that they're not for us to look at and say, Oh, that one's gonna pull me through the park, and this one I'm gonna eat, and this one I'm gonna wear, and this one I'm gonna experiment on for you know, this is the wrong meeting for this, perhaps, but insofar as my animal advocacy, these are not our animals.

They have the right to a God given, if that's what you believe, life just as we do.

I have a fantasy of us looking back on this in 200 years and saying, Remember that when we had those big, beautiful, majestic animals pulling us on carriages.

The fact that there's anybody in this room that can look at an animal with the apparatus and the carriage and the people in the traffic and the sounds and the smells and the heat, and say, sure, yeah, that's reasonable.

The first time I saw that 40 years ago, I thought, what is this?

It's 40 years later.

I've looked face to face with politicians in this city since then who have said, yeah, we're on it, we're on it.

It's it's our platform, we're gonna make it happen.

To be here, I'm gonna say very quickly.

I'm an empath, it's what I do for a living, and I can't always turn it off.

And to listen to the romance's family and what they are going through knocked the wind out of me.

I have an 18-year-old, and I came to the city as an 18-year-old with dreams and a life to start.

It's 40 years later, and I've lived that dream 4,000 times over, and that I am here with the honor of potentially naming this law for Romance for the future he will not have and the dreams he will not get to realize.

It's the greatest honor of my lifetime.

It's time, everybody.

It's time.

It's time.

You can't pretend that you don't know what you know.

That's it.

Sorry, thank you.

No, thank you very much.

Bob Holden, Mr.

Holden.

And uh good afternoon, uh Chair, and uh thank you for this hearing, and I want to thank uh Speaker Menon and Chris Marte for taking up the banner.

Um my name is Bob Holden, uh, and I had the honor of representing District 30 in Queens from 2018 to 2025, and I'm the original author of the legislation before you today.

The bill that began as writers' law and is now rightfully Romance's law.

I introduced this bill in 2022 after a horse named Ryder, nearly 30 years old, malnourished and suffering uh a disease, collapsed on Ninth Avenue in a heat wave, while his driver struck him with the reins.

I spent the next four years begging the council, the former council uh that preceded this for a hearing.

Four years trying to get a hearing.

Adrian Adams, the speaker, refused to allow it.

Flat out.

And I was told that, that it would never get heard.

A deal was made year after year.

She personally blocked this bill from reaching the floor.

No hearing, no vote, no voice.

70% of New Yorkers who supported it, they had no voice.

The Conservancy, Central Park Conservancy supports it, endorsed it.

The mayor endorsed it.

She still said no.

Now I'm gonna say something that's difficult to say in the family I know is here, and my original bill would have banned horse-drawn carriages in New York City on June 1st of this year.

Romance died on June 17th.

That should be chilling to the members listening.

Sixteen days we're talking about.

That is the cost of four years of obstruction.

An 18-year-old boy on his family's first trip to America, celebrating his graduation, is gone because this industry was allowed to keep operating 16 days past the date my bill would have shut it down.

The hearing I fought for four years is now happening.

The bill is in front of you.

The public is behind you.

Pass Romanche's law now.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Adita.

Thank you, committee.

My name's Adida Berncrant, Executive Director of Night Class.

For more than a decade, I've documented and reported the dangers of horse carriages, but today, rather than repeat any of that, I want to amplify a voice that deserves this council's attention.

Anita McGill, whose family owned and operated Chateau Stables, once the largest horse stable in New York City for nearly 50 years, reached out to me because she says several carriage owners are now desperate for a way to leave this business before a ban goes into effect.

My name is Anita McGill.

I am part of Chateau Stables, my family's business.

We owned the largest fleet of horse and carriages at our stable at 608 West 48th Street.

In 2018, we sold our stable and semi-retired to our family farm.

I've been asked to submit a statement by some current horse and carriage owners to seek some relief and get help for them to be offered an option to get out of the carriage business.

My opinion talking with them is the quaint leisure leisure horse and carriage ride is no longer like it used to be.

They are now squeezing past city bikes, petty cabs, runners, baby strollers, and millions of extra park goers.

This is a safety issue.

I feel there are no more safety solutions that can be applied to lower the risk of more and more accidents happening.

Frederick Olmsted designed the park to be seen by horse and carriage.

Yes, he did, but not in 2026.

Central Park is totally different just in the past 10 years.

It's exploded with millions more population in traffic.

Business is way down, I hear from some owners.

There is nobody applying for a horse and carriage license.

Owners struggle to pay the board.

What is the benefit?

I hope the city allows the horse and carriage owners to get out graciously and compensate them so that they and their horses can live peacefully.

Also, she made a point about hitching posts with Councilmember Jennero is obsessed with.

Hitching posts to me are only a recipe for more problems.

It encourages drivers to walk away and leave the horses alone.

Not every horse accepts being tethered.

They can feel tension, panic, and back up and bust up what's behind them.

Horses can rub their bridles off on hitching posts, creating a whole different set of problems.

So I think you know, please pass Romanche's Law Intro 943.

No more tragedies.

Thank you.

All right, before this panel goes anywhere, we have some council members that have questions.

Councilmember.

Oh, I'm sorry, we have sorry, we have the hybrid.

I forgot.

Dr.

Craig Kulakowski.

Um you have two minutes.

Dr.

Kulekowski, are you online?

No.

He is.

Do we have are we having technical issues?

Because he says he's online.

We'll come back to him.

All right, we'll we'll come back to him.

In the meantime, um, Councilmember Wong has um has questions, and we have another council member also with questions.

Thank you, Chair.

Um Councilman Hodan, I still call you Councilman.

Um critics of this bill have argued it would destroy jobs.

And when I was getting my water, someone also said told me the same thing.

As the original author of the workforce provisions in this legislation, now what is your response to that argument?

Well, first of all, there's a there's some lies out there.

Um independent contractors.

That means they're not getting benefits.

I'd like to know, I've asked TWU how many union members actually are drivers, real drivers, independent contractors, how many are pay paying union dues, and what benefits do they get?

So right now I would say, and just talking to some of the drivers, they don't get any any benefits.

If they have city jobs, well-paying city jobs, they'll get health coverage, a pension, and they'll get other things that go along with regular jobs.

It's a big scam that's going on.

And why does if the if the TWU just reveal how many you pay dues paying union members they have, we might get somewhere, but we won't get that.

I never got that in the in four years, over four years of actually trying to get some movement on this bill.

So there's not great paying jobs out there.

These these are day workers or independent contractors.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

Okay.

Um, Councilmember Jennero.

Thank you, madam chair.

I think I'm gonna start to um from my right and go left.

I wrote down some of the names.

Um first would be to um Ashley from PETA.

Um you found out, or when Peter found out that um Denise had the horse Denise had died from eating um toxic Japanese ew plants, you being a premier animal rights organization, um, did you do anything?

Yes, we pointed out that Denise never should have been in Central Park in the first place, and that his if his driver was attending to him properly, he wouldn't have been eating the vegetation in the first place.

Did you know his driver was following regulations, he wouldn't have eaten the vegetation?

Uh well, look let's let's kind of expand this a little bit.

So we have toxic plants in the park that are toxic to every species that is native to the park, um species that migrate through the park, people walking their dogs in the park, stray cats, whatever.

Every single animal is subject to being poisoned or killed by Japanese you.

And as an animal rights organization, did you say anything to the Central Park Conservancy about this was not the kind of um plant that should be in a park with such a diverse array of animals?

Did you address the concerns?

Forget about the horses right now.

Because you know, Denise is already dead.

And um so um uh and I, you know, as someone who's been an equestrian for 60 years, I know that horses graze.

Have you ever driven by a field of horses where even one was not grazing?

That's not how this works.

But anyway, moving to other animals, did you have any concerns about any of the any of the other animals in the park, which your agency is supposedly all about?

Yes or no?

What you just pointed out about horses grazing is precisely one of the reasons.

Can you please answer my question?

Did you denied everything now?

Did you Pete did you force to be in an environment where they're not gonna be able to do that?

Hey, I I get to ask the questions, and you answer my question.

So my question is did PETA do anything about the presence of toxic plants in the park.

Are you asking if we started a campaign to ban a plant?

Woo!

Clapping, no clapping.

I asked the questions here.

Come on.

When I heard about the plants, I issued a statement, I put in a bill request about toxic plants in New York City parks, and I wrote the and I wrote the um, you know, uh Central Park Conservancy.

So I guess I'm more of an animal lover than you are.

Edie Falco.

That's cute, but no, no, no, I'm done with my question.

Edie Falco, Councilmember Janeiro, your time is up.

Councilmember Hanif.

Thank you.

I want to just say to E.D.

I'm a big fan.

And I love the Sopranos.

It is my favorite show.

Um I would love to uh hear from you.

Um how do you respond to people who are uh who believe that supporting horse welfare and supporting carriage drivers uh are mutually exclusive?

Why do you think it's important to care about both?

Um as an animal lover, I am here to on behalf of the animals.

I'm an advocate.

Um things change, life changes.

Uh you know, the tobacco farmers had to find other things to do when people started to say, you know, this is killing us, we can't smoke as much, you know.

Uh I think you you learn that when it's time to move on, it's time to move on.

And the I I think it is deeply important to make sure that these people who have spent their lives as carriage drivers potentially the the lives of their parents and their families, it's very important to look out for them for sure.

And I'm so glad that the speaker has you know made that a big part of what she's doing, and other people here.

I am here to speak for the horses, you know, because they can't say, like a like a petty cab driver, when you say to him, you know, do you want to pedal these people all the way up here in 90 degree heat?

He could be like, you know what?

No, it's too hot.

I'm not doing it.

You know, the horse can't say it.

And I think for those of us who are moved to do so, because you think it's it is right and humane, someone's got to look out for them.

So that is my priority.

It's my reason for being here today.

I believe the humans will most definitely be taken care of, but I'm here for the horses.

But I'm here for the horses.

Thank you, and thank you for using your voice and platform years of advocacy.

Okay.

Next person is Gail Brewer.

Thank you.

I want to thank CLAF for that conversation that you just shared with us.

So my question is, because that's not something that we've heard before.

So my question is do you think then at this point?

What's next?

Do they as owners feel they could contribute to ending this carriage horse industry?

That was quite shocking and surprising and gleeful what you just said.

Right.

I think there's a lot of fear among some of these people to speak out, but I think they are desperate to get out.

They are afraid of another horse spooking and killing someone because it's happening so often.

And I think they want to get out of this business even before a ban goes into effect.

And she said that the several that she's speaking with, that there are many more, but many are afraid to speak out for fear of retaliation or whatnot.

So, yes, I think that there is a strong feeling that they want to get out now and they would like to be compensated, which I know is already in the legislation, but I think that there's a worry that that won't happen.

Okay.

Yeah.

Thank you very much.

They do sit on very expensive real estate, so that will be helpful to them.

Right.

Thank you.

Okay.

Um we have Councilmember Feliz.

Thank you.

Thank you again, Chair.

Uh, thank you all for being here, and also thank you for all the work you do on this issue.

Using your voice to help the voice list.

So, two questions.

I know time is very limited, so I'll be fast.

Two questions.

First, thinking about the transition phase and helping the workers with employment.

To your knowledge, approximately how much do these workers earn, and also is it full-time employment seasonal?

I asked these questions to the administration.

Did they have any answers?

So wondering if you I have industry spokespeople have said that I think 60,000 a year, but it is seasonal work because for many months out of the year, there in the winter, there's no business.

It is an independent contractor job.

I've spoken with carriage drivers who were injured, badly injured.

If they are injured, they simply get no income.

They have no health insurance, they have no worker compensation, no overtime, no sick leave, no worker protections of any kind because they're not classified as employees.

Why would TWU be representing wealthy millionaire carriage owners who misclassify their workers and deny them even the most basic worker protections, guaranteed salary, no kind of living wage, no benefits of any kind.

That's a question to ask TWU, but industry spoke and there's been many uh carriage drivers quoted during heat wave saying, I can't pay my bills, we can't survive.

This is not a lucrative job.

Uh you can Google these things, they're all coming from the horses' mouths, the horse carriage drivers' mouths.

So I have long wondered why a union would be representing this kind of setup of a labor situation when there are real union jobs on the table of guaranteed full-time jobs with salaries, worker protections, benefits, health insurance.

You know, 20 years ago, there was a carriage driver who nearly died.

He was thrown from the carriage, suffered a skull fracture, and was in a coma for months.

And his wife was interviewed saying that he was often scared driving the carriage.

So 20 years ago, we nearly lost the life of a carriage driver in the same way that Roman Romanch died 20 years ago.

Right.

Um also my second question is as we know leaving a horse carriage unattended can create the public safety risks that we continue to see in Central Park.

I'm just curious, how often have we seen that be like literally every day?

I have a video which I would love to show to all the council members, especially Councilmember Gennaro.

This carriage driver is doing exactly what got Romanch killed.

He's on a busy street, busier than where Cherry Hill is.

There's a cop car behind him.

He's in Grand Army Plaza in traffic.

He is literally stepping far away from the carriage with a baby in the carriage.

A data family.

Yeah.

Videos.

Oh, I'm sorry.

But and so this was taken yesterday, doing exactly what got Romanch killed, but in more danger, if this horse had spooked and taken off, a baby could be dead, a family and everyone in traffic, it happens every single day.

I have hours and hours of footage of this.

And when reported to the city, they do nothing, they're not capable of enforcing these laws.

We saw the poor testimony.

I think it's just not possible to run after 68 carriages who don't give a damn about the safety and welfare of their own horses or the public.

It's not gonna happen.

So we gotta shut it down.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for you, Councilmember Feliz.

Um a couple of things.

One is I just want to mention that when the Department of Work and Consumer Protection testified today, they said that drivers make 70,000.

So I want to point that out.

It was in their testimony.

I want to acknowledge that we've been joined by Councilmember Ressler, and Councilmember Mate uh has questions.

Um thank you all for being here, and thank you, former Councilmember Bob Holden, for your leadership on this issue.

I know we've we stood together for a really long time, and you know, I'm glad that you're here to to play a part in this hearing as well.

Um I wanted just to piggyback on the questioning of Councilmember Felice.

Um Adita, how often do you see unattended horses in Central Park and how many documented episodes do you have uh that illustrate what we know is reality in the park?

I mean, I've been involved, I've been involved in animal advocacy in different facets, the wild horse issue, wildlife, urban wildlife, but also the horse carriages for almost 20 years.

It has been happening for 20 years so constantly that at a certain point documenting it and reporting it became futile, but I still do it all the time.

The day after TWU held their press conference saying that they had taken extraordinary measures and retrained.

I just stopped by the park for a brief period of time, and in that period, I found about 10 horses just from 6th Avenue being and 7th Avenue being left unattended, some of them no drivers anywhere around, drivers taking pictures.

It's literally happening every day, multiple times a day, and I believe there's going to be testimony from a petty cab driver who's in the business for 23 years, who can attest to that.

It is in part of their advertisements the ride that Romange took.

They take three pictures.

Who's taking the picture?

The carriage drivers get out.

This is how they make tips is by taking pictures and leaving the horses unattended.

But not only that, they're left unattended on the hack lines, they're left unattended in areas they're not even supposed to operate, and at any moment, those horses can spook and run.

But it's important to say that many of the worst spooking crashes and injuries have occurred when the driver is in the driver's seat in control.

Because when a horse spooks and takes off, it often can't be stopped.

It's a huge powerful animal with a flight drive, and they take off, and that has happened many times.

But clearly, just leaving your horses abandoned in the middle of one of the busiest parks in the world isn't is a very reckless thing to do, and they're still taking pictures.

Yesterday I have the video, I will submit it, of a family with a toddler in the carriage, right in Grand Army Plaza with a cop car behind them and a lot of chaos going on.

He did this in the open because there's really I I just don't know that there's any other way that they know how to operate this business, and that's why it needs to be shut down.

We can't expect DOH to run after 68 carriages constantly preventing them from killing people.

It's not gonna happen.

Thank you for your advocacy and leadership on this issue.

Thank you.

Okay.

Do you want to respond?

If I could just elaborate a little bit.

Um how could you um think that a prey animal like a horse, 1500 to 2,000 pounds, uh, will not get spooked again, even with the driver, like Adidas said, with the driver, you know, at the reins.

It can happen, it can happen any time in a more crowded and a noisier city.

This is going to happen again.

And we're and we're just fooling ourselves to think that we can control that.

We can't.

So let's wake up, folks.

This is um the handwriting's on the wall.

This industry has to go by the wayside, and we will retrain the drivers.

That the city will get great jobs, period.

Who would be against that except the owners who why the TWU?

I never heard of a union representing management.

Have you?

All right, thank you.

Um Ms.

Berncant, can I ask you a question?

So if you would be kind enough to give us specific amendments to the council of what you'd see like to see changed in the bill, we would like to get that from you.

Absolutely.

So if you could submit that, that would be great.

Absolutely.

All right.

Um I want to thank I want to thank this panel very much for taking the time to be here today.

Really really appreciate it.

Thank you.

Okay, we're gonna call up now um Borough President Brad Hoylman Siegel.

And we have um Erica Sullivan, who works for um assemblymember Deborah Glick.

She here.

I don't see you.

Oh, okay.

Thank you.

Oh President, go ahead.

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Chair Sholman, members of the committee, Councilmember Marte, sponsor of Romanche's Law, and thank you, Speaker Julie Menon, for your support of this legislation and holding this hearing and being here personally.

It means a lot.

Um I I'm Brad Hoylman Siegel.

I have the honor of serving 1.6 million New Yorkers as Manhattan Borough President.

You know, Times Square was once lined with blacksmiths and stables and home to the Vanderbilt's American horse exchange.

In fact, my extended family once ran a small business called Miller's Harnesses.

Even though Miller's Harnesses is no longer in business, and there have been dramatic changes in the transport of goods and services and people in Manhattan, as we all know, the horse carriage industry continues to operate on the busiest pathways of Central Park, the world's third most visited tourist attraction.

Today we're reckoning not only with an industry many say needs to be more tightly regulated, if not outlawed altogether, but the death of a young man, Romanch Mahajan, who came to New York for what was supposed to be the trip of a lifetime, and who fairly assumed, along with his family, that when they took a city regulated tourist ride, it would be safe.

That was an avoidable tragedy, one no family should ever have to face.

The death of anyone, especially a young person, should be enough to demand change.

But for my testimony today, my team and I wanted to take a step back and look at some sober statistics around the issue.

So we reviewed public records, including the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene data for every documented report of carriage horse incidents in and around Central Park dating back to 1982.

What we found was evidence of 96 serious carriage horse incidents, including human injuries and 40, 40 horse deaths.

Between 1982 and 2026, the annual incident rate has more than quadrupled.

In just under half those cases, a horse died.

And when a horse escapes its carriage, our data show that a person is hurt over half the time.

The trend is only getting worse.

Over the last 13 months alone, we counted eight incidents, more than double the pace the industry has averaged since 2019.

We collaborated with a professor from the Mathematics Department of Columbia University on a forecast model based on this data set.

If the pattern holds, our forecast shows we could see 16 to 30 more carriage incidents by 2030, almost certainly with human injuries and upwards of 11 more horse deaths.

New Yorkers are concerned about this trend line too.

We've seen the recent polling data by Zenith Research that shows 68% of respondents supported ending horse-drawn carriages in New York City.

In concert with this finding, 311 data shows 175 horse-related animal abuse complaints since 2020, two-thirds of them from inside two streets of the park in the industry's own stables.

It's clear the status quo is unacceptable.

That's why I joined my colleagues in co-sponsoring Romanchas Law.

But any serious case for winding this industry down has to reckon with the hundreds of workers who will be at risk of losing their livelihood.

Intro 943 directs DCWP to build a workforce transition program.

I urge this committee and DCWP to make sure it is funded and staffed before drivers lose their routes.

I hope this council, and I know this council will work with that coalition to ensure a smooth and safe transition.

The full horse incident record, a review of our 311 data, and our analysis is available online in our report.

Should New York City ban horse carriages, here's what 44 years worth of data shows.

In honor of Ramanch, and in tribute to his loving family, who I understand are with us today.

Thank you very much.

Uh Ms.

Sullivan.

If you can keep it brief, that we would appreciate that.

Absolutely.

Good afternoon.

My name is Erica Sullivan.

I'm here from New York State Assemblymember Deborah Glick's office to read her testimony.

Thank you.

Thank you for the opportunity to testify in strong support of the passage of Introduction 943 to ban the operation of horse-drawn carriages in New York City, ensure the drivers a transition to new employment, and retire the horses to sanctuaries for their healing and freedom.

Horse-drawn carriages are an outdated industry where animals are exploited for profit as entertainment comparable to the use of wild animals in circuses, which the city has outlawed.

The incidents involving horse-drawn carriages are predictable results of horses being put to work in our city and represent preventable chaos and tragedy.

We learn the news of horses fleeing and colliding with cars, resulting in injury, collapsing and taking their last breaths on our streets, and the tragic death of Ramanch Mahajan to his family and friends.

I extend my sincere condolences.

Horses should not be subjected to breathing in exhaust fumes, dressed in costume with blinders on, and living in buildings that are ill-suited to comfortably shelter them.

Even on our city's most beautiful day, this attraction is antiquated.

Fifteen years ago, we were having the same discussion with calls for replacing horse-drawn cabs with electric vehicles to carry visitors through our parks.

It's time for this debate to finally end.

Horses will flee when frightened and collapse when overworked, and no amount of tighter reins, rains, hitching posts, studies, regulation, or reform could effectively avoid or alter the innate behavioral responses of these powerful animals.

The only way to avoid the next tragedy involving horses is to pass intro 943 and ban horse-drawn carriages in New York City.

Thank you for your time and attention.

Thank you very much, and thank you, Mr.

President, for taking the time to come and do this today.

Really appreciate it.

All right.

Next panel is Connor McHugh.

John Chi.

Councilmember General hasn't had a question for a while.

I'm sorry.

Council Member Genora had a question about that.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Um sorry.

All right, we have to John Ciello.

Uh Gabriel Cook, Christina Hanson, Angel J, and Sherise Dubois.

All right, we'll make sure.

Who's going first?

Okay.

So good after.

Good afternoon, City Council members.

Good afternoon, Julie Menon.

Ms.

Shulman, Chair.

I'm John Torello, president of TW Local 100.

I represent 44,000 union members across this great city.

And I also proudly represent the horse and carriage industry.

First, I would like to give my sincerest condolences to the family of Romanesh, Naharan.

Killed in an accident last month.

Tragic and unforeseen, our hearts go out to him and his family.

My members in the horse and carriage industry are mostly immigrant workers and laborers that are in Central Park.

What about my members' American dream?

Councilman Mate was nice enough to give statistics on the industry.

Let's talk about racetracks.

That in the last 10 years, 10,000 horses have died in racetracks.

I don't see anything happening there.

Let's talk about the food delivery services that run right past this building that nearly ran me down and maimed and killed people every single day.

Electric bikes, Amazon boxes that are propelled by electric means that do not have a license on them.

Nobody's talking about that.

But this small microcosm of an industry that has been iconic to Central Park is now under attack, and it's been under attack for quite some time.

There's a hundred and sixty-five-year history.

I would put them up against any other means of transportation, and I all but guarantee you that they've done worse the other people that aren't my people.

Uber.

Pedestrians are run down all the time.

Are we banning Uber?

No, we're not.

So where is the justice?

The animal rights advocates talk about the horses not being treated fairly.

That's another misrepresentation.

They get fed and they get five weeks of vacation.

I am asking the city council to table.

Hey, dequirement.

That's all right.

Everybody has their moment.

I've been very patient, so I'm gonna I'm gonna finish this.

I'm asking the city council to table this and also take up Councilman Jennero's offer of making a safer place in Central Park.

This is the horse and carriage business has been around before the city was even incorporated.

It's part of the history of this city, and it would be a shame for tourism to annihilate them in one swoop of the hand.

And as far as union jobs, I don't even know what that looks like, and I don't know what what it is, but if you're a horse and carriage driver, I don't think you want to be a host at a racino.

I don't think you're looking to do um hotel bell hopping or or uh reception.

So I would caution the council on what they put in this bill and speak with the union, local 100.

We move this city, and I want to thank everybody for their time.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Who's next on the panel?

Okay.

Oh, okay, pardon me.

Uh Connor McHugh, thank you for having the hearing.

Uh I've been a carriage driver for 40 years, a carriage medallion owner for 36 years, and a stable manager for 22 years, all collectively at the same time.

Uh I will tell you that being a carriage driver in Central Park is one of the best jobs you can have in New York City.

There are 68 horse-drawn cab medallions in New York City, and collectively we have invested millions of dollars over the years in our business.

Taking a horse and carriage ride in Central Park is one of the most iconic things to do in New York City, and people from all over the world know about us and travel to New York to come for a carriage ride in the park.

It a ride in the park is folklore.

In the past 20 years, there's been a concerted effort on to drive us off our land on the west side and out of our buildings in Manhattan.

And this coincides with the rezoning of the area now referred to as the Hudson Yards, where all of our stables are located.

And this intimidation has taken various forms over the years between reporting us to ICE and the IRS.

Keyboard warriors trashing us on social media and animal rights volunteers who have come to Central Park to harass our drivers and the business in general and create an unsafe situation in Central Park.

It is no wonder that their actions have caused incidents and accidents over the year.

Some of these people, the people who testified here before you are today, have been arrested for attacking and assaulting carriage drivers and our customers.

And I'm sure you're well aware that New York class over the years had to pay thousands of dollars in fines because of campaign finance violations.

As we know from history, the best way to steal people's land is to ridicule and demonize and ultimately bankrupt them until they no longer can pay their bills.

They have planted poisonous use all over Central Park, and nobody knows who's been poisoned by them, except that thankfully we were able to identify what happened to our horse.

God knows how many horses they have poisoned.

And just like the Brits, they blame the victim.

In addition to Central Park Conservative has introduced in the last 10 years or so, approximately 800 motorized pedicabs to Central Park.

I know the speaker did a study on this, and you found that 93% of the pedicabs operating in central in Central Park are motorized illegally.

And as you know, almost none of them are actually licensed at all.

And they have ramshackled through Central Park every day, but you want to blame us for the racket that has been created in Central Park.

I beseech you to drop this bill completely and instead consider Jim Jennero's bill.

If you pass this, this is a total act of vandalism and a miscarriage of justice on trumped up charges that the worst that New York City will ever perpetrate.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Um who's next?

I'm sorry.

Who uh, my name's Christina Hansen.

I am the shop steward for TW Local 100 Central Park carriages and a carriage driver.

I have been a commercial carriage driver in Philadelphia and in New York City for 20 years this month.

And um I've been here in New York for 14 years.

It's hard to hit a it's hard to fit a 5,000-year-old partnership, four centuries of history and decades of experience into two minutes of testimony, but at least it's longer than a TikTok.

It's good to be here in the same room with all of you, in person and not online in some comments section.

Horses helped built this very building 200 years ago.

There's George Washington and his horse, old Blueskin.

Um at the same time that we in this industry have been devastated, have been mourning the Mahajan family.

We are now being forced to fight for our own.

I have noticed that many people in this room have spent more time creating content for social media on this issue than coming to the stables, petting our horses, and meeting our drivers.

And unlike the last panel that purports to speak for us, in the rest of this hearing, you are going to hear from our drivers, our carriage owners, and you can hear from them about how much they love their horses, and who are other people to speak for our horses than the people that know them best.

Um regulated by the city since 1692.

Our rates have been set by the city since 1813, and we've been giving rides in Central Park since the day the park opened.

So that is the rental horse licensing and protection law when it's affected in 1981.

We are the definition of a lawful regulated business, and our safety statistics bear it out.

If anything has changed in uh Borough President Um Hoylman's testimony in the last 40 years, it's smartphones.

People are disconnected from reality, but at the same time they can post things they see online all the time.

Um history has shown us that absolutely horrible things have been done in the name of progress, and many beautiful things are destroyed.

Uh opponents of the carriage industry have weaponized push polls to make everybody say, oh, the majority of New Yorkers want this banned.

That has not been borne out by our unions polls of Central Park users.

70% of Central Park users found that uh uh carriage horses add beauty and charm to the park, and 60% opposed a ban when this was done last fall.

Uh my real real world experience bears this out.

The smiles we see from people in Hell's Kitchen, the delight and children padding horses in the park, that's real world experience.

There were they we were closed for six months during the pandemic.

We went into the pandemic with 68 carriages and three stables, and we came out with 68 carriages and three stables.

Think of all the New York City businesses that we lost, and now you're sitting here and trying to lose another one.

Um there's been a lot of talk about job retraining workforce development.

I am a horse person.

I grew up in Lexington, Kentucky, horse capital world.

I own a horse.

His name is Sherman.

I expect he's 12 years old.

I expect him to live for another 20 years.

And this bill is telling me that I can't go work with my horse in another place to pull a horse and carriage.

And I would wonder then if I could have my horse as a rental riding horse in Central Park.

The borough president just said his family's from Miller's Harness Company.

Miller's Horse Company from Manhattan Saddle Ray started up riding horses in Central Park.

What about the mounted unit?

Could I get a job with them in the stable or riding as a police officer?

Those horses are here in midtown in traffic, in the streets, they're owned by the city, but that's a good city job, you know, and that's what I am skilled at.

I don't need to be told to go work in the hotel or something like that.

I am a horse person, so will the city be giving me a job with one of your police horses.

All right, who's next?

Dr.

Cook.

Yes, can you hear me?

Yeah.

Good afternoon.

Go ahead.

First, I am so sorry for the tragic tragedy that brings us all here today.

My name is Gabriel Cook, and I'm a board certified equine surgeon, and I provide medical care to many of the New York City carriage horses.

Four years ago, members of the industry reached out to me and asked if I'd be willing to offer more consistent medical care.

I agreed with the understanding that my examinations would be more critical in nature.

Complete physical examinations would always be performed, and horses would be would be trotted during the examinations to ensure soundness.

If found unfit in any way, the horse would be temporarily suspended until healthy.

Oh, he is.

I made it clear that I would be an advocate for the horse, and they accept it wholeheartedly.

I will not agree with the other panel that horses should not work, and we can get into that later if you'd like.

Having been doing this for the past four years, let me tell you what I do know.

These horses are not abused.

They are not neglected, they are not starved, they are not overworked, they are provided with proper stabling, clean stalls, good ventilation, and as much hay, grain, and water as they desire.

Stablemen attend to these horses 24 hours a day, a standard beyond what I am used to.

Let me tell you what I also know.

Despite the intention of the council's bill to guarantee the welfare of these horses, it is not possible.

There are already innumerable horses unsuccessfully seeking homes.

I work with sanctuaries.

I work with rescues, they are underfunded, they struggle, and sometimes they overburden themselves with horses, and the horses don't get the proper feed there.

I am in the trenches.

I see these horses.

I do this seven days a week for the last 35 days.

And I will tell you this they will, and when they do become displaced, they will end up in slaughterhouses.

I have seen it.

They will end up in auctions, they will be euthanized because people don't want to starve these horses.

This is not okay, folks, and it's not right.

And finally, having worked in this industry for the past four years, I am in agreement that the industry has its challenges, and almost all of them related to failure and regulation and enforcement.

As you so kindly predicted, sir, that we would be talking about regulation and enforcement.

Almost all of my frustration is involved in this issue.

I've had frustrations resolving this issue.

It is extremely disappointing that no New York City agency or the New York City government has been willing to take control and responsibility.

To ban it now without making that attempt would be unjust.

Okay, thank you.

Um who's next?

Angel.

Hi.

Uh so my name is Angel, and I've been doing this for a long time.

I'll be driving.

Bring the mic a little bit closer to you.

Thanks.

Sorry.

Yeah, it's all right.

So my name is Angel.

Uh I've been working with horses almost all my life.

I love what I do, and I just want to make sure the guys that are our horses stay in our hand.

We have family.

Everybody here in this business, we have families to support.

I'm one of them.

I have two kids.

And uh I really don't want to see my horses go away.

I love what I do.

And I wouldn't do anything wrong to one of my horses ever, ever.

A lot of these people, they said that we have used the horses, that we don't take care of the horses, and that's not true.

I'm here because I love what I do.

I love my horses.

My family, they know that I love what I do.

And they don't want to see me giving up on what I do.

So everybody talks and says that uh our horses, they're not in a good hell, that we don't take care of.

And like I said before, it's not true.

It's not true.

My kids, they know that I spend so many times, almost all the time taking care of my horses.

And even Dr.

Cook, he knows that I when every time I have a question, I call him, I make sure to do the right thing with my horses.

And like I said, um, everybody hits how a family and to end up with this business today.

I don't think it's the right thing to do, guys, to be honest.

I love my job, and I wouldn't do anything else.

Thank you.

Cherise.

Good afternoon, Chair Shulman, committee members, staff.

My name is Sharice DeBose.

I'm the political director for TWU Local 100.

We appreciate the opportunity to be able to testify today, but I would be remiss if I did not begin to express our disappointment with this legislative process.

Many members of this council have chose to co-sponsor intro from 943 before ever sitting down with the workers whose lives would forever be changed by this legislation, before speaking with the TWU, before hearing from the families who have devoted generations to this industry, and before this public hearing was even held, many council members had already decided the outcome.

This is not what meaningful public participation looks like.

Public hearings should exist to inform legislative decisions, not simply ratified decisions that have already been made like a kangaroo court.

Our members deserve due process.

They deserve to be heard before the city council votes to eliminate their livelihoods.

You say that people don't want this bit this business, but this business has survived two pandemics.

The civil war, superstorm standing.

There's so many things that occurred in the city, and this business is still here.

The Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits government from taking private property for public use without just compensation.

Nobody can say what's going to happen to the to them financially, and what will happen to the contributions that they have already made and the investments that they've already made to operate this business that was regulated by this city of New York.

Where are these sanctuaries that you speak of?

How many horses have been committed to placements?

Who is paying for the decades of feed, veterinary care, transportation, and maintenance?

Those questions remain unanswered.

Our members consider these horses part of their families.

They do not want them sold at auctions or placed in uncertain circumstances.

Ironically, this council recognized in this year's budget just how expensive animal care can be by funding assistance for low-income pet owners.

Central Park belongs to every New Yorker.

It does not belong to the exclusively work wealthy donors and advocacy organizations or private conservancies.

We offer our consolances as well to the Mahjong family.

But last year, also a pilot named Sean Johnson, Augustine Escobar, his wife, and three children died in a helicopter that crashed in the Hudson, celebrating one of their children's ninth birthdays.

You can never say what could happen.

I pray to God that we all could not have these tragedies and avoid them.

But that's the fabric of our of our lives.

And sometimes we don't even get an offer of condolence from anybody that's sitting in this room.

And I pray that that also changed.

Thank you.

Thank you.

We have some questions by the council members.

First, Speaker Menon has questions.

First of all, I really want to thank this panel.

We hear the emotion and passion in your voice for this.

John, a couple, thank you for being here.

A couple questions for you.

Could you some there's been some testimony today about salary?

Could you sort of really clarify this?

What is the average driver's salary?

What are the benefits that are offered to the drivers as well?

So the average salary is anywhere from 65,000 to 70,000.

Now, as far as the benefits, understand there's an independent portion to this thing.

They don't work, they're not civil servants, so we're not able to bargain.

We're actually we're bargaining with the city council.

That's what we're doing.

So they're they're an association under our charter.

And as far as benefits, we could offer them uh dental and eyeglass, the major medical is a whole different issue.

Is there a collective bargaining agreement that covers uh city's horse carriage drivers currently?

None that I know of other than the charter that allows them into uh Central Park.

Okay.

Um after the fatal incident, TWU issued a statement calling for an increase in carriage driver training and implementation of more rigorous testing of driver applicants.

Um, what is the union's position on the city's existing testing and oversight?

Well, testing oversight is great, but we've also went above and beyond.

We have a whole safety department.

We've uh collaborated with our shop steward Christine in making sure that all the members who you've heard testimony from, and most of them are here today.

You know, this is their livelihood, and and I don't think that they take it for granted, and accidents do happen, as we always say, and and I and I cry like everyone for the family, the Manache, you know, Maharaj.

It's it's it's a horrible, horrible, horrible thing, and there's no question about it.

You mentioned at the beginning about other modes of transportation, e-bikes, et cetera.

You know, I do want to say, and I want to respond to that.

The council and petty cabs, which I know council member Brewer has also been very focused on as well.

Council is deeply committed to reforming the petty cab industry, dealing with the fact that that so many operators are unlicensed or overcharging tourists.

We're committed to focused on the e-bike legislation.

We have a package of bills we're about to be introducing on that.

So I do just want to clarify that because we are you're very focused on those modes of modality as well.

And I just end by saying, and I've been saying this in the beginning, we are committed to ensuring your workers' livelihood.

The council, when we understand that right now, the language in the bill talks about worker training.

We know that there needs to be additional language negotiated.

And so we look forward to sitting with you and your members and doing just that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Speaker Mennon.

Councilmember Jennero.

Thank you.

Thank you, uh Madam Chair.

I I notice you um gave a little extra time to the witnesses.

I certainly appreciate that.

Uh what I don't appreciate was that it took more than three hours to have uh a panel that speaks for the industry actually come and speak for the industry.

Um I want to talk to Sharice.

Um, you know, you did mention a uh kangaroo court, and that's precisely what this hearing is.

Um it was pronounced in the New York Times yesterday that the speaker had made a decision, and here's what we're gonna do with the workers, and here's what we're gonna do with the horses, and we're gonna do it this.

And then she spoke with all the advocates this morning, and when she opened up the hearing today, it was just like this is what we're going to do, and this is how we're gonna take care of this part, and is that we're gonna take care of that part.

So in her mind, it's already done.

I will just mention that not even half of the members of the council are even uh or are even on this bill as sponsors.

Um when you talk about the process, you are very right.

When when you know members can sign on to whatever bills they want, but when a speaker comes out and goes to the New York Times and makes a video on the same day and comes out the next day and talks about all they have because it opens up the hearing and says that this is how like this is happening, we just have to figure out like how we get it done.

That is I've been I'm the longest serving active council member.

This is not how the council is supposed to work.

Um, and I and I apologize for that.

I have a hundred and I have uh uh minute and twenty left.

Um I wanna, you know, uh you know, one of my major concerns, Dr.

Dr.

Cook, um, is about the fallacy um that there are, I mean, I I've been an equestrian for more than 60 years.

I've been riding horses longer than anybody in this room.

Um I know horses saddled horses for me, you know, you guys with the draft horses and the you know cold bloods and all that.

Um, but you know, the whole notion, because I know as a horse guy that, you know, if you want that that the sanctuaries are really for horses that have been abused or have been, you know, neglected and and whatever, they're very, very underfunded, and the animals in your industry wouldn't even go there because they need whatever meager slots they have for the horses that are really been abused.

So this whole notion that there are sanctuaries and entities that will pay between 15,000 and 25,000 a year per horse per year, this is fantasy.

I'd like you to comment on that.

The number might even be higher than that.

And there's Oh, I mean in terms of terms of what it costs.

Of what it costs.

Yeah.

The numbers are even higher than that.

Um I think everyone has goodwill here, and I think people do want to find new jobs for the drivers, and they want to find beautiful homes and pastures for the horses.

It is so multifactorial and complex.

There are a lot of these horses.

Uh I I work on fairly nice, I look work on very nice Olympic quality horses in Fairfield and Westchester County.

Some of these horses, when they get turned out, don't even like being out in fields.

They like the security of the barn.

So just to think you're going to put these horses out in the field, and they're all going to be happy, is also a fallacy.

It is one movement away for that for a horse, and then it will be lost.

And they are there are horses now that cannot find homes.

So the answer is it's not going to happen.

So just w just realize that you are providing a death sentence to these horses.

It's not just these hundreds of horses that are in New York City.

You use the word death sentence, did you not?

I think this is a death sentence.

Okay, thank you.

I I think this is a death sentence for not all of them.

Some will get placed, but for a lot of it is a death sentence for a lot of these horses.

And I think you need to think further than that.

It's not just the number of horses that we have in the city now.

It's the next hundred and fifty horses that are in Amish country that are going to be repurposed as carriage horses.

Because I'll tell you in Amish country, if they don't get repurposed, they're being sold at auction and they're getting euthanized or sent to slaughterhouses out of the country.

So if you put it all together, it's more than just the prison horses.

So for so the other the other panel, and I appreciate their passion for what they do, and we are never going to agree that horses shouldn't work, dogs shouldn't work.

I watch horses play polo.

They're playing the game.

The horses are watching the ball.

So I I do believe there's a joy in the bond between people and animals.

There's a joy that animals get from working, bird dogs with their with their with that are that are that are hunting.

But if this ends, forget about these horses.

Just forget for it's it's forget about the horses, they're gone.

Thank you, Doctor.

My time is up, but I you know look forward to someday possibly doing another successful reform bill like I did in 2010, please.

Which made a big difference.

Thank you.

Um we have other Madam Chair, if I could answer Councilmember Jenner's question really quickly.

Okay, about the Kangaroo Court.

So it was very disappointing that members signed on to the bill without meeting or talking to the workers, especially people in leadership positions, because I feel like you all have a this is what you're supposed to do when you're in a leadership role.

And I've been getting calls the whole time I've been here from council members saying that they're being pressured to sign on to the bill.

And I can't help but wonder where would we be if the people that came before us, the trailbed blazers that came before us just got stopped in you know the line of opposition and threats.

Like none of us will be where we are today if those people had fallen prey to the opposition that came before them when they fought hard.

So I'm hoping that you at least give us more time to and you have a dialogue because there are things that we all agree on, and we should start there.

Thank you.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you, Shirish.

Thank you.

Um Councilmember Montecks, thank you, Chair.

Um I just want to state for the rector that before we introduced this bill, my office reached out to the union TW to set up a meeting, and I also in that email said I'm willing to visit the stables and meet the horse owners, and we never got an appointment set up.

And so, you know, we tried doing that olive branch to have the discussion before the introduction of the bill, uh, but it was never accepted on the on the other side.

Just wanted to state that because I feel like some of the allegations could be thrown at us inappropriately.

Um I have a question for for the union.

Um for horse carriage drivers who do not own uh the business or medallion and are hired to drive for someone else.

Are they classified as W 2 employees or 1099 independent contractors?

And if they are employees, who are their employer?

Can I answer that?

Yeah.

All right, I'll answer this as our shop steward and the representative of our members.

Um we have both W-2 and uh 1099 employees and independent contractors.

We are some of the last truly independent contractors, because you know, the individual carriage driver makes an individual deal with the carriage owner over what percentage of the trip card the carriage driver keeps before they hand the remainder of the take for the day to the owner.

Um so there are drivers who will not work with certain owners because they don't like the percentage.

There are drivers who will not work with the carriage because they don't like the horse.

Uh they are carriage drivers who I mean, we we've set when we go on vacation.

Uh we set when, you know, we are true independent contractors.

There are some W-2 employees that work for mul carriage owners that own multiple carriages, so they're more of a fleet um, you know, more than just the single um owner-operator or a single owner.

Um, and then we do have a lot of owner operators in the business.

I have a follow-up question.

Who pays the dues to TW Local 100 in connection with the carriage trade?

Is it the higher carriage driver, medallion owners, or their owner operators?

It's all of them.

The drivers and the owners all pay union dues.

The drivers, if you don't own a medallion, you don't pay as high enough uh a due structure every month.

But we are all here together because you guys are management.

You set the terms of when we get to go to work under what conditions.

You said how much we can charge.

So you are management.

And our union here is here to represent us in our negotiations with you and the New York City administrative code.

That's our contract.

Okay.

I have two quick questions.

How many do paying carriage drivers does the union currently have?

And you mentioned earlier that the average salary is 65,000.

Is that through a guaranteed salary or is it an hourly wage negotiated through a contract?

Well, again, like I just told you, we negotiate with the carriage owners.

You know, do I get 40% of the ride and keep the tips?

We always keep the tips.

The drivers always get the tips.

Whoever is doing the driver, the owner, or the driver.

Um, is it 50%?

Does the driver get to keep the first ride of the day?

These are little small businesses.

And you know, so it's not a wage job.

You know, today, if we weren't here, you know, we would have been suspended because of the heat.

So it's not a salary.

This is not an hourly wage job.

This is a way of life with horses in small businesses.

And in this case, the workers own the means of production.

So I own a horse, I work for somebody who owns a carriage, I run his small family business.

He has horses, he owns the medallion.

There are stable owners here, they own the stables, but they're also workers.

You know, so we own the horses, we own the carriages, we own the medallions, we own the stables.

And that's who we are.

Thank you.

Okay, thank you.

Um, can I answer?

Sure.

Councilmember Monte.

Councilmember Marte.

Um, TW, we've reached out to every council member to visit the stables.

Some of them do get a chance to.

And though that office still stands if you're ready to come by.

I'll I'll follow up on my email.

Thank you.

Also, um, I would like to note I think there was a discussion about there being a delay in the introduction of the bill so that you could meet with us, but also our union is also engaged in contract negotiations with the MTA.

Uh, and our other members are working without a contract now.

So there was a request to delay, but that bill was introduced on schedule to coincide with other legislation in Philadelphia.

Okay.

May I say one thing?

Yeah.

I'm sorry, may you say one thing?

Um, thank you.

Regarding the invitations, um, there have been a couple of council members that have visited.

Um Councilman Epstein did visit, and we met and spent, I think, probably close to an hour together.

You seemed really intrigued, really interested, you were focused.

I explained to you what I look for in a horse to make sure that they are held uh do you remember this, sir?

That that whether they're healthy, whether they're alert what when a horse is standing in the back of the stall not facing you, they're stressed when they're looking at you with their ears forward, when they're breathing normally, how we take heart rates, you listen to everything.

I showed you that there was manure and shavings on the stall during the time of day when we cleaned stalls.

I said when this is once you leave, this will all be swept.

The stalls were clean, there was fresh water, there was hay interview stall, you listened.

I think we agreed that despite and you made it very clear your stance, and I appreciate that, and we can agree to disagree, but at the same time I asked you to at least appreciate or understand what I was trying to get across to you, and you said you did, and then you crucified me the next day with your approach.

You showed a picture of a healthy horse in a stall that is in jail.

I was very naive walking into that because I do believe that information is information, and you failed me on that one.

I think you failed the industry.

You did not represent us properly.

I'll be interested in your thoughts.

You're gonna go next anyway.

Okay, I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't part of a condition that we were gonna introduce the bill if you didn't meet with us.

We reached out, I think more than a month before our intended introduction, and it wasn't in line with what other cities have done.

As you mentioned, Philadelphia has banned horse carriages from their city, and that just was a coincidence, and we're willing to, you know, follow their lead now.

Okay, I don't want to have there's no I don't want back and forth here because we'll be here all day.

So you want to just take it outside of here, that's fine.

Um Councilmember Epstein, you're now thank you, Chair Shilman.

And I yeah, I did visit and I raised concerns there, and you say I crucified you because I disagreed with you, you know, we have a right to disagree about issues, you know.

I I'd wanna you know, again, like I said, I made an offer to visit and I did and made a decision that I would think is an important bill.

I want to thank Council Member Marte for sponsoring it.

Um and I just want to reiterate with the speakers that we've talked a lot about e-bikes and we had a hearing on the last mile bill about the Amazon trucks on the street.

We already did a lot of the things you're referencing to talk about these issues.

So I think the council in the short month of the six months of the speaker's been speaker, we've taken a lot of these issues on.

This is a hearing about getting feedback from people, and I don't I mean it's important, you know, that we hear what your perspective is.

We're allowed to have perspectives based on the information we have.

And uh, you know, I I think the characterization I feel deeply troubling the way you've characterize this as uh we're not willing to visit, we're crucifying you, we're not talking to the union.

I met with Sam Newson myself and I talked to him about this issue.

So I think you know, I really take issue with this the way you are talking about us.

I want to talk about the the the people who are working uh at the in the industry.

I'm just saying, so there's no CBA in effect, right?

There's no they have no CBA, right?

Who are you talking to?

Anyone, whoever the you or uh the person who's your delegate.

So as I stated earlier, there is no CBA.

Right.

That's why we're here speaking with you, because uh, you know.

Right.

No, the CBA and there's you said there's no medical insurance, right?

When you say medical insurance provided by local 100, yes.

No, there's no medical insurance, other than we have the ability to offer them dental and optical, because that's what's under our purview.

And do you do they pay the dental and optical or is that do it come through their dues?

So I don't have that information in front of me, and I don't know how many people are in the dental and optical plan, and I quite honestly don't know why it would concern you.

But I just want to I want to know the benefits that people have are being a member of the union.

They're paying dues.

So the the benefits of being a member of a union is what I'm doing right now in advocating for them.

Right.

That's what unions are.

Uh okay.

I appreciate that.

If the crowd doesn't like it, I'm sorry, but this is what we do.

So uh my father, they can do that if they want to.

It is a respectful way.

My father I was I was just clapping.

Yeah.

My father was a president of the union.

I was a shop steward when I was in the union.

I respect the unions.

I'm a chair of a committee that works on you.

Were you a part of?

I was uh leg uh local legal aid lawyer uh and legal services lawyer, local 2320, uh UAW.

Okay.

Did you have benefits?

I did have benefits.

And I worked full time.

Did you pay for them?

I pay through my own.

Listen, I wait, I want to stop this right now.

The panelists are not to ask questions of the council members.

I am telling you now.

So listen, full disclosure.

So let me just finish this.

Yes, yes.

Um I want to be clear.

How many of these uh members are do you have in total?

How many members do I have in total?

I represent 150.

150.

How many of those are full-time uh sta uh work full-time versus part-time?

I don't have that information in front of me.

If I represented one of them, I would be here today.

So I really view your approach to be deeply troubling and adversarial in a way.

I'm just asking you a question.

You know, you can just say whatever I'm allowed to speak.

You can answer the question any way you want.

I'm happy to talk to you after the fact, but I'm just explaining that this you know oppositional adversarial approach is maybe not the ideal situation in a hearing.

So 150 members, you don't know how many of our part-time, and what are the dues that the people who who are the members pay versus the owners of of this the stores playing?

So how much time is Councilmember Epstein going to be?

He's finishing up a question.

So again, as I stated earlier, I don't have the treasury report in front of me.

I don't see the relevance of how many people are paying or what they're paying or what they're doing.

So you may call it adversarial.

I don't see the point in anything you're saying at all.

Yeah.

Uh Chair, I really appreciate the time.

Thank you very much.

All right.

Thank you.

Councilmember Wong.

Um yeah, I think it's a fair question that um how many members uh dues paying carriage drivers.

Uh, so I'll answer it exactly as I answered before.

I do not have the treasurer's report in front of me.

We have a hundred and fifty members.

Most of them are here today.

If you'd like them to stand up, we could do that.

I do not see what the correlation is to this bill.

I don't see what they're paying, what their health benefit is.

We are looking to preserve their jobs.

That's what unions do.

So there is workforcement training uh uh on this bill.

I don't I haven't seen any of it, so I can't speak on that.

Go ahead, move on.

But but there is workforce training for for these has drawn horse-drawn characters.

As I stated earlier, these men and women are in the horse carriage industry.

I don't know what type of industry is in work, the workplace development.

I haven't been a part of it, but I don't think you're gonna have anything close.

A hotel host or casino worker is not going to be a job that they're redapt to.

So unless you have something that I don't know about, feel free, because I don't know what it is.

No, there's been no discussion with local 100 about what that particular job is.

And workforce development is a lovely word, but I don't know what it is.

Yeah, um, my predecessor Robert Holden, uh, when he introduced the bill, he asked for more hearings he'd been asking for these years.

Okay, but the question is uh I I we I Bob Bob Holden likes to put TW in his mouth for some reason, and I don't know what his interests are, but he's you know the past counsel, but if you have a question, I'll answer it.

Yeah, the um there was never a hearing about this until today.

Is that right?

I remember in September I came to a hearing.

Well, all right.

So move on.

Relevance ask your questions, council member.

Uh okay.

Well, I I I I've been involved with the city council for several years, and this is the first hearing that I know of in this room regarding this bill.

So uh and I I asked myself, how come there was never a hearing on this?

Uh either the previous speaker never wanted a hearing, or or there are there are people out there that just don't even want to discuss this.

I would ask Bob Holden.

Well, Councilmember, we're not arguing.

Listen, we don't ask them a question that relates to the union.

Do not ask them about the legislation.

Okay.

I don't know, I have no further questions.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Councilmember Hanif.

Thank you.

I'd love to uh address these questions to the workers.

Could you describe what process you follow when a horse is sick or your horse is sick, injured, showing signs of dehydration, and then who decides whether the horse continues to work or stop?

So I said I have been a commercial carriage driver for 20 years.

Um just describe the process.

So the process is I'm with my horse every day.

Okay.

So I know what they are normally like.

If there is anything wrong, I stop what I'm doing and I call Dr.

Cook.

So essentially it's up to the driver.

I mean, of course it is.

We know our horse best.

Obviously, if somebody said something to me, one of my co-workers, the stableman who noticed something different overnight.

You know, if it was somebody on the street who said, hey, what's going on with this?

But aside from the driver knowing their horse, there isn't a set standardized process.

But I want to continue asking.

Could you I'll answer a question about dehydration?

Okay.

Could you could you respond to my next question, please?

Okay.

Um, what policies are in place to ensure a horse is removed from service when there are concerns about its help.

And I know Dr.

Cook was mentioned here.

If you want to chime in.

Yes, so uh horses are creatures or habit.

They do things all the time, meaning if they normally pass five piles of manure overnight, there's usually five piles of manure every morning.

If they're if they're depressed, you can see it, their heads are low, their ears are back.

They can look, they can look not okay.

And that's where my telephone is.

That's a signal sparking.

That's a signal you're you're saying.

But those are definitely all signals.

For life-threatening problems with colic or abdominal pain being the main one, they are very vocal.

They are pawing at the ground, they're violent, they're go they're getting in the they're lying down, standing up, walking in circles.

It's obvious.

So in those moments, I'm usually receiving a telephone call.

We have a protocol in place because I am not there at all every day.

So we have I I there are medicines that I have uh that I have directed them to give in that event.

My rule, and this is has been implemented, and the vast majority of people have followed it, that if they do not respond to that medicine, the horse is to be trailered to my hospital because it's silly for me to drive all the way down and then say we have a problem, and then have the horse, so the horses come to my hospital and we evaluate.

Have there been times when a horse was sick, was depressed, having physical, psycho uh physiological issues, and continued to work.

So, not to my knowledge, but I think but I but for hundreds for how many horses do we have?

For a hundred for whatever that is, it has probably happened, but it can't continue.

Meaning that they may have started to work like that, maybe, not to my knowledge, but if they did, they couldn't sustain a day and be and and be that sick.

So ultimately it comes to our nose.

Now I'll tell I will say this.

Let's take a let's take a bad apple moment.

Let's let's say for a second, and this hasn't happened in the last year or two, but early on, I've again I've been there four years.

In the event that I recognize there's a problem, and and it this is barely happened.

If the person says, Dr.

Cook, you don't know what you're doing, I know my horse, the horse is fine, I'm going to work, and I disagree with that.

My only authority, and I have used it a c a few times is to call the Department of Health.

And I consider Department of Health.

I believe this is a problem.

It's up to the Department of Health at that point.

And and in those events, they have suspended the horse until we could evaluate the horse.

I I hope that answers your question.

Okay.

Yeah, that's it.

Could I just say one comment?

Just one comment.

Comment.

Um, but your responses still demonstrate that there isn't a standardized process, and having to call you and rely on the owner or call department.

So what would be the standard?

What would be a standardized process if if if my 10-year-old son had had an earache or had a belly ache or had appendicitis?

The standardized process is you have to call for help, recognize there's a problem.

Well, schools have a right.

I'll move on.

Let's not do the back and forth here.

Okay, uh Councilmember Brewer.

Thank you very much.

I I do believe I've been to the stables years ago, and I do believe that the uh people who are with their horse do care about the horses.

Let me let me be clear on that.

The issue for me is this I believe is gonna stop this industry.

What you know, I'm just being realistic here.

So my question to the union or anybody else is earlier we heard from one of the speakers that there is some interest from the owners of getting out of the business.

That was surprising to me.

So my question to you is what circumstances, even though I know you are not interested in getting out of the business, what circumstances would you feel could be of assistance to your members if in fact this happens?

I know it's a hard question, but that is my question.

A couple of occasions you have referenced there's big real estate here, and and this is something that really rubs me and my other owners, myself and fifty to 14 other people owned the stable on 52nd Street.

All of us are carriage medallion owners.

And the other two stables are owned by people who own carriage medallions.

And we bought our land because we wanted it and we needed it, and we didn't buy it to sell it.

And that is rubbing a lot of people the wrong way nowadays, especially since the whole rezoning took place.

And our mission is not to give up our land ever.

And that's I don't know how many times I've heard about big real estate.

We're not interested in big real estate.

We are interested in providing carriage rides in Central Park, and we're not interested in being uh fobbed off with uh some stories, because the day you sell your land is the day you are finished.

I I hear that, but there was a family apparently that is interested that we heard.

Family that's interested sold their stable ten years ago.

So it was 10 years ago that they sold it.

Yes.

Okay, thank you.

Councilmember Wilson.

Thank you.

I have a question about um you know procedures while in the park.

We heard from testimony earlier, and I guess this is for the drivers.

We heard testimony earlier that it is very common for drivers to leave the carriage for I think it was said for photo photographs that that's advertised, that there's sections in the park where they're often left.

I'm just curious your response to that, and if that is if it is routine in perhaps a way that you know, to step away in a practical way of managing the carriages and the business in the park.

So I've worked as a commercial carriage driver for 20 years, and there's different rules and regulations in different cities.

So here in New York, the law is that the horse must be attended or tethered at all times.

So we when we can, we tie our horses to the lampposts and infrastructure.

Um, you know, attended, you know, we have people that are right there.

When this accident took place, my understanding from the people that are investigating it still, it is still an ongoing investigation into this accident as to what spooked the horse.

My understanding is that the driver, as he was getting on the carriage, had the lines in his hand.

Um when I worked in Philadelphia, the law was not attended or tethered, it was that you could not ever tether, and that you had to ha maintain control of your horse's head, which was actually defined.

So, you know, we've been a very, very safe industry.

Uh, you can look at our guys doing this business back for decades and decades and decades when we're out in Central Park South.

Um, and basically, one of the things that this um that the uh health department did not mention in their discussion of our training process is that we have an apprenticeship.

So we learn from other carriage drivers like how it's done, and that is why you know, this is how our business has been, you know, safe and handed down from generations to generations to generations.

Um, given that we don't know what spooked the horse, and given that there is like a completely new thing in Central Park with all these electric vehicles whining and screaming and going on at high rates of speed, you know, we have had to then change what we do because the park is different.

Um, and so you know, I have been out there every single day, literally reminding people to hold their horses and to change the way that they are used to attending their horses and being nearby.

Um, Adita was up here testifying earlier about unattended horses.

She has come by taking pictures, and a lot of times she's taking pictures of a horses, and the driver steps out of frame because A, he's she's trying to take a picture of the horse, not of us.

And B, people don't want to be in her social media.

How often is a horse spooked?

Very, very rarely.

Um, you know, horses are creatures of habit.

They don't spook because they're prey animals.

So, you know, a horse's main concern in life is not to be eaten by a mountain lion.

And um, you know, you can't spook at everything that moves.

I mean, spooking is a defense mechanism, run away.

So it happens very rarely because our horses get used to what they experience in the city and the taxis and the buses and the construction equipment, all that might as well be rocks and trees and shrubs.

It's just a part of their environment, so they can be on the lookout and I guess what I'm struggling with is like we don't know what spooks them.

Well, we no matter no matter what, you know, what is the step in the case?

Council member, you have to wrap it up.

So that's kind of what I'm, you know, we have a sentient animal that we don't.

We do, and because they're creatures of habit, as Dr.

Cook said, and we are with them all the time, we know them.

Like my horse Sherman doesn't like off-leash dogs, particularly medium-sized, light-colored ones.

Like he notices them.

He was obviously chased before I bought him when he was on some Amish farm up in the finger lakes.

Um, he doesn't like little wheelie things.

You know, some horses don't like garbage trucks, and some walk right past them.

It's not that we don't know, but in this particular instance, in this particular accident, we have no idea.

But that's what's unusual about it because as horse people, we can't, you know.

You know, it this one is a stumper for us.

So that's why it's still under investigation.

And um, you know, so I mean, we are horse people all the time.

Ask the mounted cops what spooks their horses.

Okay, you know, they have that they know their horses just as well as we know ours.

All right, thank you.

I want to thank this panel.

Really appreciate it.

Madam Chair, Madam Chair.

I I uh I I think I have something to add to Carl Wilson's question, and I think we'll now listen.

You you had your time, and no, I just think I it would be a good idea.

I'm just telling you, I'm just telling you, uh, this panel's dismissed.

I'm just trying to answer his question.

All right, I'll answer it.

You can answer it with him.

He's next right next to you.

Thank you all very much.

Thank you.

You were great.

For the next panel, we're gonna do a hybrid.

Um we're gonna there's a doctor who was supposed to be on earlier.

We had some technical issues, so we're gonna see if he's still available.

Dr.

Craig, shh stuff.

Dr.

Craig Kulikowski.

Yes, can you hear me?

Yes.

Oh, amazing.

All right, so why don't we just why don't you go ahead and testify and then we'll we'll call the the other parts of the panel after, okay?

Okay, great.

Great, thank you.

I would like to thank the city council for considering the welfare and safety of New York City's carriage horses.

My name is Dr.

Craig Kulikowski.

I'm a New Yorker, an equine veterinarian with almost 30 years of experience, and I have been a horseman for more than 40 years.

Before I was a veterinarian, I competed internationally as an equestrian in several countries and on multiple continents.

I believe that horses, like humans, can work for a living.

But when humans employ horses for entertainment or profit, we assume a serious responsibility to protect their health and welfare.

In many peak wine industries, including racing and competitive sport, working horses undergo consistent, thorough, and independent veterinary examinations.

These evaluations include observing the horse at the trot to identify lameness, along with blood testing for painkillers, sedatives, stimulants, and other medications that could mask an underlying disease or lameness.

When I was commissioned by the Department of Health to conduct veterinary examinations of 16 carriage horses last year, the owners did not comply with two critical components of typical examinations.

Blood testing and the complete lameness evaluation.

In fact, two owners did not even show up to present their horses for examination.

In spite of the refusal to comply fully, the truncated exams that I did conduct revealed some troubling concerns for me, including widespread old scars on horses' backs from ill-fitting tack and gear, insufficient dental care, and lameness that could be visible even at the walk.

Well, these clinical findings gave me concerns.

It was the lack of natural access to pasture that was my biggest concern.

A horse that has consistent access to natural pasture is not only going to be a healthier horse, but most likely less apt to frantically grab for unnatural toxic forage in Central Park, which may have contributed to at least one recent horse death in the city.

Not having access to consistent pasture also means these horses spend the majority of their days indoors inside horse stalls.

Please bear in mind that it can you please summarize.

Yep, I'll be done in just a second.

Okay.

Please bear in mind that a typical 12-foot by 12-foot horse stall for a thousand pound horse would be similar to a 200-pound human living in a five-foot by six-foot closet for the majority of the day.

It is not hard to imagine how this type of daily confinement might lead to unpredictable and extremely dangerous actions by a thousand pound animal when it finally gets outside of its confinement.

The concern is not only that one can evaluate the horse's welfare without full cooperation from owners, but how do we provide adequate relief from prolonged confinement and the dangers associated with cooped up and pent-up horses?

Thank you for your consideration.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

All right, now we're going to do the in-person panel.

Um, Roger Mosica, I think it is.

Huh?

I'm sorry.

David Sal Salt and Stall, sorry, I probably butchered that a little.

Um Dr.

Natalie Juris.

Folks here?

Yes, no.

Um, Laura Spillman.

Um Curtis Slewa, and Danielle Chinese.

Okay, I just I just want to reiterate to everyone you have two minutes, because I'm going to stop cutting people off and cutting the mics off, because we have a lot of testimony.

You could submit testimony, it all gets looked at to testimony at council.nyc.gov, and it all of it is going to be looked at and taken into account.

So if if when it when the buzzer goes off, just summarize and then we'll go on.

Okay, who's going first?

Okay, go ahead.

My name is David Saltenstahl, and I'm vice president for government relations and policy at the Central Park Conservancy, the nonprofit that manages the park on behalf of the city.

And I'm joined by Roger Mosier, the Conservancy's Chief of Park Operations.

The Conservancy supports Romanche's law, and we urge the council to pass it without delay.

We do not take this position lightly.

Over the past 13 months, Central Park has seen eight separate horse-related incidents, runaway carriages, collisions, injured drivers, and a horse that collapsed and died in front of stunned parkgoers.

Last month that pattern ended in tragedy.

18-year-old Romanch Mahajan visiting with his family from India was killed when a horse bolted near Cherry Hill.

It was a devastating loss, and our hearts go out to this family who have spoken so eloquently here today.

Public safety is the Conservancy's paramount concern.

Horse-drawn carriages are simply incompatible with a modern crowded park used by millions of visitors a year.

Again, this has become painfully clear over the last 13 months, during which there have been eight frightening incidents injuring and sadly causing the death of Ramanche.

The park is not built for the volume of people we welcome every day to share safely with half-ton animals whose natural instinct is to bolt when spooked.

No amount of regulation and no single piece of hardware can correct for an animal's basic instincts.

The public agrees.

A poll the Conservancy Commission two weeks ago found that 68% of New Yorkers support ending city licensing of horse-drawn carriages in the park.

Support that holds across every borough, every demographic, and every political affiliation.

Keeping New Yorkers safe does not and must not come at the expense of those affected.

We strongly support the provision of real jobs and workforce development services for the drivers and stable workers who will be displaced, as well as humane homes for the horses.

We would not be the first to do so.

London, Paris Wrap it up.

Salt Lake City, Philadelphia already have shown how to end this practice responsibly, and it's time for New York City to join the rest of the world.

Who's next?

Okay.

Good afternoon.

My name is Dr.

Natalie Juris, and I'm an equine veterinarian.

My role is to evaluate equine health and soundness, diagnose disease and injury, and provide recommendations that prioritize both equine welfare and public safety.

I appreciate the opportunity to offer a veterinary perspective on this issue.

One of the most fundamental principles of equine medicine is that horses are prey animals.

Even healthy, highly trained horses retain an innate flight response, a biological survival mechanism that cannot be eliminated through training, experience, or routine veterinary care.

As veterinarians, we can determine whether a horse is medically fit for work at the time of an examination, but we cannot predict or guarantee that a horse will respond to an unexpected stimulus in a complex and rapidly changing environment.

As veterinarians, we also recognize that animal welfare extends beyond the absence of disease or lameness.

Welfare includes an animal's physical health, behavioral needs, and its ability to cope with the environment in which it lives and works in.

A veterinary examination is a snapshot in time.

It tells us whether a horse appears clinically fit on the data's evaluated, but it cannot predict every future medical condition or behavioral response.

In my professional opinion, New York City's dense traffic, continuous noise, construction, emergency vehicles, pedestrians, cyclists, and other unpredictable environmental stimuli create an inherently challenging and stressful situation for horses.

Appropriate veterinary care, thoughtful training, and responsible management are all essential for protecting horse welfare, but they cannot eliminate the biological realities of the equine species or the inherent risks associated with asking prey animals to work in one of the world's most complex urban environments.

Veterinary medicine can help manage these risks, but it cannot eliminate them.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Thank you very much.

Next, want to go, Curtis.

Thank you very much.

Uh Curtis Slewa, animal welfare activist ran for mayor on the first ever animal welfare line.

Animals are people, and it is the responsibility of you elected officials to protect the rights of all animals.

This family that came from India to celebrate the graduation of their 18-year-old son if they had gone to Bombay, now called Mubaya.

They would no longer have been able to take a horse-drawn carriage that predated back to Queen Victoria because the Bombay High Court ruled it to be a barbaric act in city after city around the world.

First world, third world cities.

Let me tell you about the tradition at the Bronx Sioux.

They always had elephants.

Remember, Happy the Elephant wasn't all that happy.

Happy died.

And the Bronx decided to send Patty, the remaining elephant, to an elephant sanctuary and will have elephants no more, even though they will lose money.

Because they recognize finally, after many of us animal welfare activists pounded their door, that is enough is enough.

We know why this continues to be a problem here.

Eric Adams.

Zorhan Mandami, Curtis Sweewa, your speaker.

So if you're gonna take the money from TWU Local 100, the blood money, you are not humanitarians.

You have people will be escorted out.

Stop.

If people are gonna act out, we're gonna have people removed.

I'm telling you now.

It's a very tough act of the case.

Danielle, go ahead.

You have two minutes.

Council members, thank you for the opportunity to testify.

And to the Mahajan family, I'm so sorry for your loss.

I am also so sorry for all of those who claim to mourn your loss, but do not even take the time to pronounce your name correctly.

My name is Danielle.

I'm a native New Yorker and a longtime Hells Kitchen and Upper West Side resident.

When previously living on 57th and 10th, I watched his horses make the trek to Central Park, have them be spooked by by cars honking, bikes cutting them off, and overall just not in a comfortable state.

When now living near the Museum of Natural History, every day walk my two dogs in the park daily, multiple times of day.

In the last 13 months, there have been eight serious incidents, and I have been first hand witness to two of them.

On September 1st, the horse Samson was spooked by loud sounds, and myself and my dogs were part of the pedestrians that needed to jump out of the way to get to not get trampled.

Had my instinct not been quick enough, I would have been trampled.

My heart is dropping just thinking about that experience.

And I soon watched as Samson the horse then smashed into a stop sign.

On June 9th, I was walking with my dogs and saw the horse Denise collapse.

And while there is something awful about witnessing an animal dying, there is nothing more horrible than watching two of my animals react to another animal dying in front of them.

I am here today because in my interview with various media outlets, including CBS, ABC on September 1st, and in my interview on June 9th, I quoted that it was only a matter of time until that stop sign was a human or a child.

I invite you to look up that footage and see that footage of me saying that with fear in my eyes of what might happen.

And on June 16th, I was leaving the park when friends had texted me about the incident and the critical condition of Romanche.

I am also here because as a dog owner, if my animal is hurt, my instinct is to react.

And in both of those incidents, I know I'm short on time, but I think it's important to express that my instinct as an animal owner and someone who genuinely cares for animals is to react to them in danger.

While I am not speaking to all horse carriage drivers, I am speaking to those two in front of me that I saw.

Okay, if you could wrap it up.

While those in I will wrap up, while those in opposition might say it was one off in decades of Roman's tragedy, and the industry just needs to be regulated.

My perspective is that you cannot regulate instinct.

It was instinct for month for Romanche to protect his mother.

It was instinct for horses to be snooped to be bolted.

And if this legislation is not passed, it is only a matter of time that another human will lose its life.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you.

Go ahead.

Firstly, to the Mahajan family, I'm so very sorry for your loss.

My name is Laura Spielman.

I'm a founder of the Coalition for Responsible Carriage Horse Retirement.

And I'm here to ask you to vote yes on Romanche's law.

I'm here as a New Yorker.

I was born and raised here.

Both sides of my family have lived here since the 1800s.

My great grandfather served as mounted PD in the park in the 20s.

Mounted police serve a vital public function.

Horses draw horse-drawn carriages do not.

I'm a certified equine specialist for two international organizations worth working with humans and horses.

In the last five years, I've worked with over 200 people and 20 or so horses in my program, and I hold a perfect safety record because I put safety first.

That means the safety of humans and the horses.

Everyone evaluated, treated, and placed.

I know from direct experience that a coordinated retirement of this very size can be done.

And here's the science why they should be retired.

A horse sees nearly 340 degrees around its body, but it has blind spots directly in front and behind.

So traffic reads is an unseen threat.

Its eyes adjust to light far slower than ours, so a shift from sun to shadow or a camera flash causes real disorientation, not disobedience.

Their hearing can trigger a full flight response from a siren or a backfire in under a second, faster than any driver can react.

And small dogs and little wheeled things are allowed in the park, and they always will be.

This is not a training failure.

More training will not fix it.

It's biology doing what millions of years of evolution designed it to do in an environment that will never stop asking it to do the opposite.

This is why accidents will not stop.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

I have a couple questions.

Um for the Conservancy.

How much money annually does the Conservancy spend on repairs and maintenance directly related to wear and tear caused by horse carriages?

Hi, thanks for the question.

Roger Mosier, Chief of Park Operations for the Conservancy.

There's not an annual figure.

It really depends on the projects that we might pursue from time to time.

We find that the surfaces that the horses walk on are extremely deteriorated.

For example, Cherry Hill has a loop around the fountain there.

And we need to replace that asphalt uh due to horse damage, and that project is probably $500,000.

Okay.

How much money does the Conservancy spend on sanitation related to horse waste?

We don't we don't spend money on that.

We don't attempt to clean up after the horses.

We do have a little bit of inefficiency uh related to working around the horses on our own uh trash removal, but we don't we don't clean up after the horses.

Okay, has the conservancy seen an increase in a number in the number of people visiting the park?

Yes.

Um thank you for the question.

Um, you know, it's very hard to know.

Our general uh estimate is that we get 42 million visitors a year.

I think we saw a dramatic increase in general after cars were banned from the park in 2019, and also during the pandemic, many people came to the park because it was the only place to go, and I think they have continued those patterns uh since that time.

So we really have seen a dramatic increase in the last five or six years.

Do you think the banning of horse carriages would affect the number of visitors?

I do not.

I know that there are a certain percentage of tourists who who do avail themselves of horse carriages, but I don't think those 42 million people are coming to the park just to take a horse carriage ride.

Right.

Um those are my questions.

I'm gonna ask Councilmember Jennero.

Um he has some questions for you.

Uh thank you, madam chair.

Uh, this is for David Saltonstall and the person to David's left.

Um what's your name, sir?

Roger Mosier.

Okay.

And so what's your title?

Chief of Park Operations for the Conservative.

Chief of Park Operations.

So it was you that authorized the planting of the Japanese ewes all over the park?

Is that you?

The ewes.

Uh the ewes are uh ubiquitous ornamental shrub in North America.

But it was planted.

Yes, it was planted.

Right, but they're but they are toxic to every animal that is native to the park, or any animal that goes through the park or migrates through it, or somebody walk in the direct.

You understand this, right?

And I'm there are a number of plants in any park uh that's a lot of people.

Yeah, but you went out of your way, you went out of your way to park the to plant these for aesthetics.

The the knowing that animals could die.

The the U is uh essentially original to the park.

We have planting plans from the 1800s that show that it was present.

It's been regularly planted over it throughout the 20th century and at a time when uh horses were much more ubiquitous in the park, and everyone has lived together for that period of time.

And as far as toxicity, but you have no idea how many animals have been killed by them.

Like you don't know anything.

No uh the same thing.

All right, enough for you.

Enough for you.

I I'm done.

I'm gonna I'm I'm I'm I'm gonna go to David now.

And so um you talked about you know animal habits and you know, horse habits and features and and and and you know how they react.

Um Do you know anything about horses?

I am not a veterinarian.

That's not why I'm here.

I think you have heard abundant testimony from experts today that's a very good thing.

But you talked about bolting gray animals.

You know, you talked about bolting.

And so do you know what kind of horses the industry uses?

Like, do you know the difference between like a hot blood and cold blood?

Do you like do you know the difference?

I am not a veterinarian.

I've seen it.

Well, let me tell you something.

Okay, it's just like the industry uses what we call draft horses or cold bloods, and these horses are bred to pull a plow all day long.

And and the amount of work that they have to do in order to pull a carriage is nothing compared to what they have to do if they were plowing a field.

But the industry uses these horses because they are much less likely to spook because that is their temperament.

A saddle horse is a hot blood, they'll spook for anything in between, like a combination like would be a warm blood, which is also could be a saddle horse and could pull a little wagon.

Warm blood would be fine, you know, for for the work that they have to do, but they prefer to use the cold blood because it's a it it is a much more stable temperament.

And so for you to be commenting on something that you know nothing about, not to mention the fact that you know you've got hundreds and hundreds of unlicensed illegal petty cabs, and people have died in petty cabs, but now you're coming down on the horse carriage.

I think it's disgraceful.

Both of you.

Okay.

That's it, thank you.

Stop.

No clapping.

We've told we've said this before.

All right, um, we're done with the panel.

Thank you.

We appreciate it.

Next panel.

Alexis Lawson, Pete Donahue, Alexander Kemp, G.

David Koch, Mindy Pless, and Joshua Sossville.

Who's uh right?

Um, before we before this panel starts, I want to stress to everyone there needs to be decorum here because I'm telling you, and I've said it once, I'm gonna have people removed, and I will do it.

So just you know, it's a very fraught emotional issue.

Um, we're trying to hear everybody out, but people have to have decorum here, all right.

So if you want to stay in the room and listen to everything that's going on, please do that.

Thank you.

Um, who's going first here?

Okay.

Good afternoon.

My name is Alexander Kemp.

I'm the administrative vice president for TW Local 100.

Um, I appreciate you guys taking the time to hear the concerns of the local and the union.

Um, my condolences go out to the Mahajan family.

Uh, I just want to state for the record to the Mahajan family that I am a father.

I have an 11-year-old daughter, I have a 17-year-old son, and one of my biggest fears in life is ever finding out that my son might not be coming home or my daughter.

So, for for the sake of my condolences and and a heartfelt uh condolences to the family, I am very, very sorry that this has become your reality and that this tragic event um you will spend the rest of your life reliving.

Um, I also want to say for the record that an equal tragedy is that this is being used to weaponize removing the property uh of business owners who have gave everything they have to try to live and and act out the American dream.

And and because of a tragedy, people who are bloodthirsty for this industry have exploited it and absolutely used disgusting experience to make this their framework to eliminate an industry that has been represented for over 160 years.

The the truth is is that this is one of the safest mechanisms of tourism on the planet.

The truth is is that although, and unfortunately, we have lost a life, we do not take a consequence and throw the baby out with the bath water.

We look for ways to make it safer so that it never happens again.

We can cite the triangle fires and how it modified a whole industry.

We can speak to the fact that when planes crash, we look for ways to make it safer.

We in transportation, in buses, in trains, we have 400 to 500 people, members, employees of the transit authority getting assaulted every year.

I just heard a stat from 1980 up until now has been 98 instances where the truth is everyday transit workers are getting annihilated, and I don't see any caucus about the safety of the people that you guys are tasked with protecting.

So I would just demand that prior to you making a decision on this industry, you look at all of the responsibilities that you have to hold up your end of the bargain, and then collectively we can figure out what the future looks like.

But nobody should be making decisions over one experience that is a tragedy that I believe we can ultimately learn from and make the industry safer.

Thank you.

Okay, thank you.

Who's next?

Please keep it to two minutes.

Oh, yes, I can just press the button.

Yeah.

My on uh I clear it with the staff.

I'm gonna read a statement from International President John Samerson, and then I'm gonna give my testimony.

Uh that was approved by the council staff, just so you know.

Uh, this is from the testimony of councilman uh TW International President John Samerson.

This hearing is based on politics, not on the pursuit of animal welfare or public safety.

Let's start with the prime sponsor, Councilman Marte.

I'm shaming it shame he left here.

At a hearing on Rider's Law last year, Marta you said this about horses giving carriage rides.

If it was an individual, if it was a human pushing a horse carriage, we would call that inhumane.

If it was any other living animal, whether it's a dog or a cat pushing a carriage, we would call that inhumane.

Why do we have to put horses at a different level?

This is one of the most unintelligent comments ever uttered by a city council member.

A 1,600-pound horse is not comparable, councilman, to a chihuahua, a cocker spaniel or a Siamese horse.

But that is in the fact the mindset of the animal rights fundamentalists that this council speaker and council are following.

Speaker Menon knows this is not an issue of safety in the park.

If safety in the park was a real concern, she would hold a hearing on a bill, which 20 council members signed on to when it was introduced, that would prohibit e-bikes and motorized scooters in Central Park.

Nearly 70 people, including pedestrians were injured in Central Park in accidents involving bicycles, e-bike riders, and e-scooters in the last five years.

One died.

Speaker Menon and the council members here want to end the noise from the animal rights fundamentalists and the real estate backers, the constant phone calls, the emails, the social media posts, and the threats posed to council members, death threats to council members who opposed the bill.

Ironically, they are wrong.

There are polls that show strong support for protecting workers, these immigrant workforces, and the horses.

You need to wrap it up.

I'll wrap it up.

Please, because you can submit that.

So I'll have a wrap up.

I'm on the last two sentences.

This bill strips blue-collar workers of their jobs and future income.

It offers nothing in return.

Just a promise of workforce development and the words from the speaker about potential future jobs, with no mention of compensation to medallion owners who paid in some cases hundreds of thousands to the right in the surgery.

NAFTA has come to Central Park.

At the best, this bill is half baked, exposing workers and ironically horses to arm.

This is my testimony.

Thank you.

Um, who's next?

No, I am next because you're next.

Sorry, sorry.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Just seven months ago, this same committee, the health committee, rejected this exact same bill, then called Roder's Law.

You rejected the claims that the carriage horses are being mistreated.

You rejected claims that the horses aren't receiving proper care.

Can I wait till I get attention?

Okay.

You rejected claims that the horses aren't receiving proper care.

You rejected claims that the horses don't have suitable housing.

You rejected claims that it is cruel somehow for a 1,600-pound draft horse to propel a carriage horse with giant wheels.

You would voted against advancing this very same bill.

So what changed?

For the first time in a hundred and sixty-seven years of power of carriage rides being a popular feature of Central Park, a pace passenger fatality occurred.

One fatality in 167 years.

Carriage rides are the most safe mode of travel in New York City.

The fatal accident involving Romance was an absolute tragedy, no question.

Was it more tragic than the death of bicyclist Salvador Nico Garcia, who was killed in a bicycle accident in the park last year?

Was it more tragic than the death of bicyclist Charles Cheeseboro, who was killed in a bicycle accident in 2019?

Is it more tragic than the death of 28 people killed in accidents involving two-wheeled motor vehicles in New York City in the first six months of this year?

No.

Are you considering banning walking, biking, scooters, taxi cabs, buses, or the subway?

Of course not.

Because that defies all logic and common sense.

So does banning carriage horses.

The city can address any safety concerns it has by doing what it's supposed to do.

Govern, regulate.

The lawyer for the romance family earlier said it's not the workers, it's not the union, it's the city that did zero enforcement.

One of the animal rights activists said the city has done zero enforcement.

And the only thing that this council can come up with doing is banning.

That is not government, that or not the government that anybody in this city wants.

The city can address safety concerns by holding a hearing on Jim Jenner's bill.

In all fairness to the immigrant drivers, carriage owners, and the horses themselves, the city should shell this ban.

Govern, don't cancel.

That's what voters want, not a knee-jerk reaction to an unprecedented tragedy, and there are polls to back that up.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Who's next?

You'll go?

Okay, go ahead.

Is the mic on?

I'm Joshua Sasville, horse carriage driver.

Uh if the public has been actively deceived, we as the industry involved and our legislators have a responsibility and a duty to expose that deception.