Good afternoon and welcome to the pre agenda interviews for Tuesday, March 3rd, 2026 for the Planning Commission.

Would the clerk please read the title of the bill?

Bill 139.

Resolution appointing Darren Kelly as a member of the Planning Commission for a term to expire January 30th, 2030, serving the remainder of the term for a seat previously held by Steve Maza.

Bill 140, resolution appointing David Vatts as a member of the Planning Commission for a term to expire January 1st, 2030, serving the remainder of the term for a seat previously held by Gene Holland Dick.

Bill 141, resolution appointing Diamante Walker as a member of the Planning Commission for a term to expire January 1st, 2032.

Bill 142, resolution appointing Gerardo and Turiano as a member of the Planning Commission for a term to expire January 1, 2028, serving the remainder of the term for a seat previously held by Monica Ruiz.

Bill 143 resolution appointing Justin Hunt as a member of the Planning Commission for a term to expire January 1st, 2028, serving the remainder of the term for a seat previously held by Philip Wu.

Bill 144 resolution appointing Bob Repee as a member of the Planning Commission for a term to expire January 1st, 2032.

And Bill 145, resolution reappointing LaShawn Burton Falk as a member of the planning commission for a term to expire January 1st, 2032.

Thank you.

For the record, we are joined by all members of Council except for Councilman Coghill and Councilwoman Gross, but I certainly expect them to attend at some point.

So with that being said, we can excuse Madam Clerk, and if all seven appointees would be willing to come forward.

Whoever sits here will have to this mic.

Sure.

Awesome.

Thank you.

Thank you, everyone.

Slide over.

No, we're not one more time.

Okay.

We're going to go to the thing.

Well, he's coming, he's coming down.

Oh god.

Okay.

Okay.

So what we're going to do first each of you to just introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about yourself and why you're willing to serve on this commission, and then we'll open it up to members for a question and answer.

Start here.

The two on the end will have to use the portable mic.

You want me to pass it down?

Oh, perfect.

Good afternoon.

Thank you for having me.

My name is Ferrardo and Toriano.

I am a uh immigrant to the United States.

I've been in the United States.

My family is originally from El Salvador.

Uh originally from Texas.

I had spent uh most of my career and my education in Texas, moved to Pittsburgh about seven years ago.

Um had an opportunity to join one of the technology companies that's here around the self-driving uh technology industry.

Uh so we've been now in Pittsburgh for seven years.

Uh it has been an incredibly welcoming community.

Uh we're very excited uh to be part of this community.

I have three children uh that live in the city.

Uh we live in the city, we go to schools in this community.

Um, I have always been a big believer in being involved in your community.

Uh right.

I I've had an opportunity here in Pittsburgh to serve on a couple of different boards.

I sit on the Heinz uh History Center board.

I'm on the Visit Pittsburgh board.

Um, have had the opportunity to represent uh the governor on the uh highly automated vehicle advisory committee and the Pennsylvania Workforce Commission.

Um my hope is that we can begin to give back uh to the city that has given our family so much uh to be active participants in our community.

Uh and I'm excited uh to have the opportunity to get to work with all of you, with the rest of the commissioners and with the city to find ways to continue to make the city better and improve it in whatever way possible we can.

Thank you.

Good afternoon, members of council.

My name is Justin Hunt.

Um I was born and raised in Pittsburgh, and I currently reside in Shady Side.

Um deeply I'm deeply grateful for the opportunity to be considered for a position on the planning commission.

Over the past decade, while primarily primarily living and working in New York City in Charlotte, I've been a member of small teams that have closed transaction exceeding one billion dollars across multifamily retail office, hotel, self-storage, and the industrial real estate asset classes.

I've been trained and spend each day in the market dynamics and development challenges that the planning commission's the planning commission works to address.

I'm currently a director at Elmhurst, a 52-year-old real estate development firm located downtown.

Elmhurst portfolio within the city includes several of the company's marquee properties and employment centers developed in partnership with the local trades unions is our largest investor and sole um labor provider.

Elmer's portfolio in the city includes properties in districts one, three, six, and eight.

What excites me most about this role is the opportunity to apply my career experience to the planning commission and to serve the city where I grew up and plan to raise a family.

I understand how uh development firms think, how projects get financed, and where community interests and investment interests can align.

Umside of my role at Elmhurst, I'm a board member of Innovate PGH.

I am also an active member of NAOP, uh, the Urban Land Institute and the Shady Side Community Partnership, my neighborhood's newly formed uh community group.

Um I'm an ardent believer in our city's potential and uh and I'm optimistic about what we can build together.

Uh thank you for your time and consideration.

Thank you.

Hi members, uh, my name is David Batts.

I moved to the city in uh 2004 and have lived in the Pittsburgh area for my entire life.

Um and since college, I decided to make Pittsburgh my home.

Um my partner Kelsey and I own a home in Squirrel Hill, where I serve on the board of the Squirrel Hill Um Urban Coalition, our registered community organization.

And back in 2021, I founded a group, Pro Housing Pittsburgh, uh, with the goal of making sure that Pittsburgh is welcoming and affordable for all of our residents.

Uh our group has grown rapidly to over 500 members since then, and we are powered by the volunteer time of our members advocating for more housing throughout the city and for policies that make it easier to build housing.

I'm excited and honored to be nominated to serve the residents of Pittsburgh on the Planning Commission because I believe the Commission plays a vital role in shaping the city's future.

I'm happy to answer any questions from the members.

Thank you, and good afternoon.

Great to see everyone.

Um for the record, I'm Darren Kelly.

Um I was honored to serve the city of Pittsburgh for 26 and a half years as a Pittsburgh firefighter.

Um recently retired.

Thank you to all of your well wishes.

I received a lot of calls and gifts from all of you.

I also uh recently served as the president of the Allegheny County Labor Council, representing over 100,000 men and women from all aspects of organized labor.

Recently is January, and right now I currently work for the Labor's International Union where I handle their political affairs.

Um I think all of you know I'm born and raised in this city.

I've never left, I never will leave.

Uh born and raised in Greenfield, moved to Lincoln Place approximately 10 years ago.

Um I currently serve as well on the Al Qasam board.

Uh what I bring to the board, honestly, is that there's I believe black and gold, and you all know that.

And I'm yeah, I'm excited to be here in front of all of you and very excited of the challenges of the city going forward and just glad to be part of it.

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Council.

I want to thank you for having me here today.

I am Diamante Walker, and I'm a lifelong Pittsburger.

I'm a fifth generation Pittsburger.

My family came here in the late uh 1800s in pursuit of opportunity and uh worked very diligently to shape the fabric of the Hill District where I reside today.

So I'm a homeowner in the Hill District.

I have two daughters, and as Mr.

Kelly said, I believe black and gold, and I have a spine made of steel.

And I'm very excited to serve and humbled to serve on the City Planning Commission.

Uh, many of you may know me from my tenure at the URA as the deputy executive director.

So I have a deep breadth of experience and economic development, housing development, governance, and uh community development.

And so uh, you know, I see the city planning uh entity as an opportunity to uh help shape the trajectory of Pittsburgh, which we indeed know is needs to grow and grow in a responsible way that is calibrated and tempered by our values.

And so I will say to you that I do value public input, but I am also a very prudent in understanding that we have some some deep challenges ahead of us that are going to take strong leaders and thought leaders who are willing to make the sacrifices that are necessary for our posterity.

So this is not an easy job.

I do not enter into this lightly.

I enter it with fear and trembling, and and a lot of respect uh for what is uh can come before me.

Uh the last thing that I will say is um you know my professional work is centered on community development.

So I just started a new role at Rising Tide as their new chief operating officer, and also have a very small uh consulting firm that provides organizational development for community development entities that are focused on affordable housing.

All right, very good.

Uh well, good afternoon, and thank you for allowing me to be here this afternoon before you.

My name is LaShawn Burton Falk, and as it relates to the Planning Commission, I have served under two administrations, have been grateful to have served.

Uh I will share that I am very excited if I receive a positive vote here today to serve under Mayor Corey O'Connor.

I've worked very hard to uphold my role as a planning commissioner, reviewing legislation, zoning legislation, uh policy around that, uh, amendments, and look forward to continuing to do that.

Uh aside from that, I think that's probably about it, unless anybody has any questions.

What's that?

Good afternoon, Council members.

It's a pleasure and kind of very circular to be back here before you all.

Um I'm Bob Repi.

Uh came to Pittsburgh 30 years ago.

I'm not a native, but we moved here 30 years ago.

Interestingly enough, for the job I had for 10 years working under uh the Murphy administration working in city planning.

I worked in city planning for those 10 years, the last three and a half of which I served as zoning administrator, uh which point then at the end of that I've went to uh the last 20 years, two weeks ago, the last 20 year anniversary at the at Carnegie Mellon, serving as the university architect for the university.

I have a background in both planning and in architecture, uh having spent both uh time in uh in where I grew up in Minneapolis as well as in Texas, where I went to school.

Beyond us, Pittsburgh was not on my bingo card.

And we uh moved here back in 1996 and we said we'd give it two to three years.

And since then we have had both kids that have graduated from Pittsburgh Public Schools.

Uh one has already graduated from Pitt.

Uh my wife works in Shady Side.

We live in a region square and become kind of fast and furious Pittsburghers uh through that.

Grep a Vikings fan, but I actually have converted to a Steelers fan because they tend to win more.

Um so I'm happy with that.

Um just as a background, you know, that I'm super excited and a little humbled to be here at the table with you.

Um this is a position that I'd never thought that I had been would be at, especially having spent you know so many years at city planning staffing the planning commission.

It's good to be back uh before council and talking to you all.

Um just as a little background, besides uh working at the university, we were in the place right now of a bit of empty nesting, and like others on the board, I've been super lucky.

Pittsburgh has been incredible to me, uh to our family.

And as a means of getting back, I've joined boards, I'm on the board at construction junction, uh, at the Frick Environmental Center and at the Internet and uh Industrial Arts Workshop in Hazelwood, and I could we'll continue to do these things because it's important to continue to build the city in these kind of various ways, both through regulatory but also through community building at the at those low at those local levels.

Thank you very much.

We'll now turn it over to members for questions.

And I know Councilman Wilson's on the clock, so we'll let him go first.

Thank you, Council President.

And uh thank you for recognizing I have other engagements, so I wanted to make sure I got a question in that I've been thinking about.

Looks like a great crew of people here.

I know uh I've worked with many of you uh on several different uh projects or within neighborhood groups, uh advocacy groups, so looking forward to the conversation here today.

I'll be joining my phone once I leave.

So I did have one question.

I run a Dallas I don't so I get it right.

So in a city, and I you know, if we could just have a brief answer from each of you.

Because I think this is an overarching question that I have for everyone.

Um in a city like Pittsburgh where we need more housing and investment.

But folks don't want to uh like they don't want their neighborhood to change.

How are you gonna handle that?

Because as we come forward with um even the comp plan, you know, the results of that.

We're gonna probably show I mean there's plenty of studies out there of you know what Pittsburgh, you know, needs.

And there's legislation on the table right now that we're all looking forward for you all to get to uh at the Planning Commission.

And so just briefly, if you could just describe how you would handle those types of decisions.

I'll start down here.

That's fair.

Um it's an excellent question.

This is one that's been challenging for Pittsburgh for probably for the last 40 years.

You know, we have we have half the population we used to have.

Uh we have a lot less we have buildings that are unoccupied throughout the city.

I think the uh one of the big pushes from that needs to be coming is how do we how do we get investment in underprivileged or underserved neighborhoods in the past, right?

It's working, we want to build all of the city, not just certain areas.

I think in regards to where the planning commission can really do that and we and how we interpret the zoning code is making sure that we're good developments that are serving all the neighborhoods, not just certain neighborhoods.

Thank you.

I too think that that's a uh a very good question and a very interesting question.

I think it's multi-pronged in terms of approach.

I feel that in order for a community to be able to accept change, there has to be a significant amount of dialogue and and people have to understand uh zoning legislation and how zoning impacts and makes changes within a community.

So there's uh, you know, from at least those two prongs, the the residents within the community, and then this body, which is council presenting legislation that sort of blazes the the path for that to be done.

Um when communities say they want things like grocery stores or amenities, they have to understand that those amenities don't come uh without legislative opportunity and with growth change is very uncomfortable, but people have to be willing to be uncomfortable.

Uh and that's both sides of the coin, both those creating legislation and those that are going to have to live uh with the legislation created.

I think neighborhoods need to be more diverse, whether that's socioeconomic, racial, um, housing typology, you know, is absolutely critical.

Uh if you're saturating with all affordable, then a neighborhood doesn't get to benefit in many ways.

The population is um impoverished, not just socioeconomically, it's impoverished from an emotional and um physical perspective as well.

We have to look at what the the barriers are within the community.

How can we do uh different things through an approach of just cleaning up a neighborhood, feed on the street uh enforcement if there if there is um law enforcement need, I I think it is multi-pronged and the approach should be such.

I agree.

I think it's multifaceted, and I think it's sort of embedded in our DNA as Pittsburghers that we feel a challenge or a charge to ensure that when we make improvements or changes, that it doesn't feel less like Pittsburgh and more like some other place.

So I think it's very important that we acknowledge the emotional and psychological reality that many of us face in neighborhoods of wanting to see our neighborhoods get better, but not at the expense of things change or feeling like change is happening to us instead of with us.

And so I think as leaders, one of the things that we have to uh contend with is how do we get rid of this notion of fear-based leadership and inject a sense of optimism and inclusion for our neighbors and our residents about how you know a lot of neighborhoods have been harmed by city planning decisions.

Redlining is a zoning decision.

And so when we talk about wielding this power in a way that could change a neighborhood again, how can they trust us and know that that change is to their benefit?

It is up to our job to do that work before the vote happens.

That's why it's important to have some level of not only community engagement, but the community involvement in recognizing that the community is the public, and this is a public process.

It must be transparent, it must be predictable, and there must be mechanisms to say, I'm not comfortable, I want to understand.

So, what are the educational opportunities that can truly help our residents and neighbors understand that bet neighborhood betterment is what we all want.

It's what we must bequeath to our children, or they will inherit many of the same challenges that we're contending with now.

And so we have a responsibility to drive and cultivate change in a way that uplifts our entire city, and so it's incumbent upon us to be the kind of leaders that can build that trust and self-efficacy self-efficacy in our neighborhoods to reduce the fear and bend people toward the arc of optimism.

Thank you.

Um I think a lot of us will kind of be on the same same railroad tracks, but what we see, you know, we have a a lot of a lot of people that have a background on this.

And I and I come with this on a thousand foot type of view.

I've been watching this for 50 years.

We have to stop the and or aspect.

We can have both.

And Pittsburgh will not be Pittsburgh by completely disregarding its citizens.

It'll never happen.

You know, not just as your let you know, as our elective representatives, but everywhere we've seen in in our great city where change that we can point at and say that is success, there's always going to be a group that says it that is not in their minds.

We can never disregard that.

But you know, we I think we all have uh a belief that the city is gonna go forward.

And there's no doubt about that.

It's our job to promote going forward.

Um but I think we have to be very careful.

Uh you know, there's there's times that I think we could probably enhance our engagement with our with our neighborhoods.

And that's something that I think all of us will always stand by.

And that's that's where I there's there's a lot of great that is going to be done, and I think especially amongst this group.

Um but we are also an extent of of the people's voice.

So I think you said it best at the beginning.

We desperately need to build more housing in Pittsburgh.

And there's overwhelming evidence that building housing is the best way that we can ensure affordability for everybody.

Um I think one of the areas that we really need to work on in general, though, is that you know, I think our rules are so outdated for how we build housing that it turns every single building into an argument into a political football.

Like ultimately what we need to be doing is we need to be doing robust public engagement around building the rules and building those rules in such a way that you can build housing, that everything doesn't have to be a variance, that everything isn't unusual.

And that will allow us to really advance.

And I think you know, it's a cumbent upon all of us as leaders in the community to make the case to people on why it's so important to build housing and why we've been falling behind.

And you know, that the zoning code and the standards that we have for building right now are a big reason for that.

Um Councilman Wilson, I think in your question, you you know correctly emphasize you know our role um in provided an important need for the city um and and that being building you know more housing of of all types and also you know growing our tax base.

Um, I think where it's beholden on us as the planning commission and the greater um you know city government as a whole um is again real robust communication between you know all the many stakeholders involved, um, you know, both in individual developments but also in in larger scale, you know, master plans as well as um s city planning.

Um and then I I think with yeah you know other others um you know here today emphasize this as well.

But um you know, I think that that's what makes Pittsburgh Pittsburgh and um again that focus on on the community uh while again driving home the needs um that we have here to build more housing and and to grow the tax base.

Thank you, Councilman.

So at the risk of being repetitive, and that I'm the last one here, I think that a lot of the comments have already been been made along these lines.

But I think you know, to answer your question directly about the how, right?

I think uh I think one of our responsibilities is to really understand the why.

Right, like why is it that somebody feels a certain way or why is it and take the time and the effort to go out into the community to listen to the community and and understand well why is it that somebody is taking this position?

What's the history that has led to some of these concerns and and start to understand and and really I think Ms.

Walker's the one who's talking about quite a bit of the transparency side, right?

Like operate with transparency where where we are bringing up the crux of the issue.

I think sometimes uh whether it's in policymaking or in business decisions, we go so quickly to try to solve the problem without fully understanding what is the background that led to this problem, and I think having us take the time to understand, well, why is it that somebody is concerned that the city is changing?

What can we do to make sure that we address that concern?

Uh and I think you do that through engaging the community.

I think you have to take the time and the effort uh to go visit with the various different stakeholders that are involved in each individual project and understand why why is it that they are in the position that they are today?

Uh and it that will be our responsibility to act as that with with that being a priority in the work that we do.

Thank you.

And thank you all for your answers and and your approach, uh how you explain your approach.

So uh appreciate your time.

And that's all I have, Chair.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Councilman Strasberger.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Thank you all for being here today and your willingness to serve in this in this very important role.

I have a two-part question, and then that'll be it, so that we can move on to other council members.

Um my question is well, it's really two questions in one, but I'll just ask them at the same time.

Uh given our tremendous kind of secret weapons and assets that we have as a city, what do you think is the number one thing that is holding us back to being the city that we could be?

As it relates to what you'll be working on as planning commissioners, the built environment.

And if there is one thing that we could do collectively as a as a body or in conjunction with the mayor's team, particularly planning staff and public affairs, whether that be legislative or whether that would be something less legislative and more programmatic, having to do with ongoing education sessions that could grow out of the comp plane or something along those lines that wouldn't necessarily be legislative, but you know, uh engaging the community when it doesn't have to do with a specific project.

Um what would what what would you see that could be uh that being that would be uh of the most benefit to you to allow you to do your jobs as planning commissioners?

So I guess we'll start over here and then work our way back down again.

Um thank you.

Uh I think I'm the newest resident to the city of Pittsburgh, having only been here seven years.

Um I will tell you one of the things that has been surprising to me is Pittsburgh has a lot of those secret weapons, right?

That you mentioned, there's a lot of resources that are here uh that many other cities across the country would die to have, right?

And I think one of the opportunities that that you have, I think as as a community as a city, whether it's planning commission, whether it's city council, it's this power to convene.

Right.

How do you bring more and more of those people, uh those different players, those different stakeholders to the table to have these conversations, to be able to operate um with that transparency, to bring in the corporate sector, the nonprofit sector, the foundations, everybody to really have a transparent conversation on what is the role that each of us have to play to be able to achieve whatever goal city council is trying to achieve at that point, right?

Um I'll give you one example.

You know, when we first moved here, we moved here in 2019, COVID started right after one of the initiatives that that I took on and in my role at Aurora was we realized that there was an opportunity to get uh computers and devices to kids that were underrepresented, right?

And so we went to the various different entities, whether it was the corporate sector, the foundations, to try to figure out how do we come and solve this problem and how do we bring all of those different players, because I think the city has these incredible resources, uh, but I think there's truly an opportunity that that the city and city council and the mayor's office have to convene, to bring everybody to the table and to leverage that more to be able to have those conversations transparently to hopefully bring about better solutions.

Um I moved back here about three and a half years ago from Charlotte, North Carolina, um, which is a you know very similarly sized um you know city city to Pittsburgh.

And um the other side of that, it is a um certainly a boom, booming um southern city.

Um and the you know, culture in Charlotte as an outsider, but also as as a person in business was extremely optimistic.

Um the city really didn't have the you know, the anchors and community asset assets that you um uh councilwoman Srosper are mentioning.

Um but the growth and the um you know ability to build um housing was a significant asset of the region there.

And and I saw that in all all levels of people that I met that had moved there and that the benefits that that growth um you know provided to to residents that had had been in the Charlotte region for a long time.

So um, you know, in my in my opinion, you know, focusing on you know growing the city and growing the region while you know also you know, making you know housing and other real estate easier um to develop will you know ultimately provide immense benefits kind of across you know across the region and for city residents.

Uh one of the things that really strikes me about Pittsburgh, and you see this all the time when people are asking questions like what's a city that's underrated in America?

What's a city that I haven't been to that I should go to?

And without fail every time Pittsburgh is mentioned in that.

And you know, I think like what uh Justin and Gerardo was saying, like I'm very optimistic about the future of Pittsburgh.

I think we can be so much more than we are because we have the right bones, we have the institutions, we're a walkable city where a lot of people get around without cars, we're not you know sprawled out the way a lot of Sunbelt cities are.

We have all of the building blocks.

But we're falling behind similar cities to ours.

We're falling behind cities like Columbus, like Cincinnati, like Cleveland, like Buffalo.

And part of the reason is we've made it really hard to build housing in our city, and those other cities have made specific reforms to change that.

Cleveland is a good example of a city that has revitalized their downtown by fixing up existing buildings that were no longer being used by offices.

We're now starting to do that in Pittsburgh, but we're many, many years behind them.

And so it's incumbent upon us and and I think upon council to think about how can we reform the code, how can we change the rules to make it easier to build housing so that we can take advantage of some of those great advantages that we already have.

To bring a different uh dynamic is that I know that right now there this speaking of housing is the hot topic.

We understand that, and I'm not naive, but we cannot there is other aspects of what this commission will be here for.

And um when we talk about our our city, you know, there are there is a lot of things that we can do.

And one of, you know, we always say one of our challenges is our topography, right?

It's also one of its biggest advantages.

We have, you ask what you can do working with railroads, working with different companies to allow us to through regulations of that, there's a lot of things that hamper how we develop, or how we could develop that are laws that are can't be controlled here.

Um but another thing is that when we're talking about the housing end, is that we all know that one of the biggest things that we're dealing with in every one of our neighborhoods, and it might not be something that we deal with the displaying commission, that is blight, in that it's landlords all around this you know, damn country that have exploited our people for far too long.

They're not responsible.

That's what we can do as far as what this council can do is that hold people that have made fortunes off of our what they thought was our demise, the 60s, 70s, 80s into where we're at now, have priced out our it wasn't what we look at as a office building or something that nature did this.

These were people that had no invested interest in our success and took their money and success to other parts of this country.

So that's what what I look at.

I'm sorry, I know I got off on a different tangent, but it is part of what our all of our philosophy is is that we're open for business, we're not open for exploitation.

Um so I I will one of the things I know about Pittsburgh is that we pride ourselves on quirk, and I think we need to begin to pride ourselves in being quick.

And part of what is happening here is that we have a strain of protectionism, and so we are so worried about doing the wrong thing and upsetting the wrong group or the wrong entity that we lend that complexity to those who are actually trying to help us solve these protracted problems.

And so I look at the fact that the governor has a very clear, succinct tenure plan around what we're going to focus on, moving at the speed of business, a housing plan, uh workforce development innovation.

I look in the city of Pittsburgh, I don't see or understand the plan.

I don't see or understand whether or not we know that these are problems that we owned, and that nonprofits, because they care more, can't do more, that we need to co-opt the market, and we need a highly functional, highly coordinated public sector, which I'll be very honest with you coming from the public sector after seven to ten years, it is completely dysfunctional.

And so a lot of what we talk about and a lot of what we blame, it's actually in our own backyards.

And so I want to see intergovernmental agreements that begin to address blight that talk about how to create jobs, and that we don't look at housing as our singular problem.

The housing issue is a symptom of a broader issue that we are not addressing because we want to be quirky and we have not yet learned how to be quick.

So I think our biggest asset are our humans.

I think our human capital are our gems.

I think that we need to look at zoning as a very important tool.

Uh a tool that opens doors, a prime example that I can share that I'm very proud of is Manchester Chateau.

Uh Riverfront in 2015, Riverfront rezoning, allowed an opportunity for a community to go after and seek a very large development.

That very large development is uh was also able to uh work through a TRID process.

Uh that process also led to uh one of the things that has been able to um combat redlining, which is to look at Route 65 and how that decimated a community that was formerly known as Allegheny City.

Uh with a a good comprehensive plan for a neighborhood, that plan informs developers.

That's the the rules of engagement when they come into a neighborhood and explains you know what a community would like to see.

But the first step was zoning.

So listening to having dialogue with the community, what does the community want to be when it's complete?

What does it want to be when it grows up?

Uh and zoning will help to deliver some of that.

Urban industrial land now capable of being mixed use is now attractive to somebody even as a local developer or an out-of-town developer to do some real at-scale development that really can be game-changing, uh, transformational for our city.

Then when you look at at um developments like that, having an opportunity to contribute regionally, it gets even more broad.

Our city, we don't have the topography to go out, but density is really important.

Hi there.

Density is very important, and we need to look at our city as a city that has been adaptable, has been resilient, and we need to be hunters.

I don't know who does the hunting specifically, and maybe it it is those with comprehensive plans that are bringing large-scale developments that are saying, hey, we're open for business, we want to bring more diversified business to our city to plant themselves and be willing to be job creators, be willing to uh provide more uh you know, tree canopy to our river's edge, clean them up, and make them viable.

Thanks for the questions, Consulperson.

And I'd like to maybe start with the second one, then go back to the first one a little bit.

You know, what is what kind of things do we need?

Uh I am a serial permit applicant at the city of Pittsburgh.

I think something of 700 applications or something like that that are probably in the last five years sitting in one-stop PGH.

And to me, it's not necessarily I'm okay with process.

I I do but I think what we need in this city is consistent and transparent and regularized process.

Where I think what I've hear from uh our counterparts are throughout the city is when one process, one project gets one kind of review process, another gets a different one that takes twice as long, or you never know exactly how you're going to be.

I think that's something that we all under this new administration and working together can start to get to.

And that gets to my second part of your of your question, which is this I've been looking at cities my entire life since as a little boy.

And this is a uniquely, we are uniquely blessed uh city as far as I'm concerned.

We have the density of some areas.

You want to live in a townhouse, you can do that.

You want to live downtown, you want to live in us in a in a single family house.

The opportunities are all here.

We're blessed with strong neighborhoods, strong foundations, great parks and hillsides.

I think what what is missing, and I'm a Pollyanna, everybody that knows me knows this, is this sense of optimism, right?

This idea that we can do stuff and we should be doing stuff.

When I joined city planning almost 30 years ago, one of the first things that the mayor at Mayor Murphy told me at that time was he said, I do not want to manage decline.

And I think that that's a really important part.

And we're at an inflection point with the city right now.

How can we move to the point where we can propel us from being we're past the dark days?

How do we move to the next great days for this?

And how can we use, I think ashaun said best, how can we use the tools that are afforded to us via the land use and zoning codes and things like that to help propel that to happen.

So all my questions for now, Mr.

Chair, I might have more later.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Council Mosley.

I want to thank everyone uh for being here this afternoon.

Uh I know many uh folks uh across from me, I think uh two gentlemen and uh could you pronounce your name one more time for me?

And Teriano and um and Mr.

Hunt um I think are the only uh folks I really don't know.

I I know all you in in in different capacities in personal life and as well as in uh professional life.

So I look forward to this conversation because I do think this is one of the most important conversations that we're gonna have at the table this year and and the work that uh we will presumably do together move moving forward will be some of the most um important work before I get some questions, you know.

I think that um you know uh so much of what um has been said, uh I think it is so on point with the moment that we're in um you know, as a city trying to grapple you know with the challenges of a city that trying to rise out of but someone said the dark days of the Rust Belt uh to really redefine you know what the what the new version is with the pressures that uh Dr.

Walker so equ eloquently laid out of, and I know me and Dr.

Walker have had conversations, you know, about you know, communities, such as the communities that me and Dr.

Walker are from that want change, but also uh carry this generational trauma of the negative uh impacts of change and and and and pushing you know uh against that.

So I guess my first question um, you know, for the entire panel is uh, you know, and and and then uh and and and I get it that you know the importance of a community engagement as a recovering community organizer.

So I guess my first question um you know for the entire panel is uh you know, and and and then uh and and and I get it that you know the importance of a community engagement as a recovering community organizer, uh I know the importance of uh community engagement and and um and you know I will always lean um to a fault in the direction of more community engagement um you know versus uh less community engagement, but it but I would love you know to get your thoughts, you know, uh, because I think it's easy for us to say, oh, we just need to have more community engagement, but in a city um that is currently divided, you know.

I think it I think we need to be clear about that, you know, and I think that's part of you know the tension at this table that you know that some of the so-called controversy.

I'm not going to call it controversy of some of the folks across the table from me that we've gotten.

I've gotten emails and calls, um, etc.

We'll get into that, you know, with with you know within the conversation, but you know, in in a in a city that's incredibly divided philosophically in a city where there's been you know large portions of the community, particularly the community that I'm from, you know, that has been left out of the prosperity for decades.

And I would love to give folks thoughts of you know, how do we, you know, you know, do that work, and I think you know, I love I wrote down your like how do we you know grow responsibly, you know, because we understand, and and I've been very clear, and I've been very intentional in my role as a council person um to be very thoughtful with my words and as well as have an open door for all stakeholders, you know, from the developer to the volunteers at the local RCO, um, and I believe my district has the most RCOs and you know, and understand that there's a balance that we have to have, you know, across all those stakeholders groups that fall in between if you would like to see those as extremes.

But you know, how how do we in a city that that has generational trauma that is divided, that has bad land use policy, or I'm gonna say bad outdated land use policy, outdated uh zone it zoning policy in a uh in a city that is very fragmented, you know, and then so I think part of that dysfunction you speak of, I think is in the DNA of a region as the most fragmented city, maybe in the history of the world, but definitely in the history of America, you know, a county with 130 municipalities and a county that has more school districts than the entire state of Maryland, um, clearly.

Um, so obviously I don't I want to get off my soapbox for a second, but I did want to just collectively kind of you know just wrap our heads around this moment, you know, that that we're in, that is you know, this this conversation that we're having today is you know much bigger um you know than this just this conversation, but I think this conversation um is gonna play a significant role to the future of the city, which I think has been eloquently stated by by by many of you, but we can start uh with my good friend um uh Mr.

Repi uh who I go way back with, and you know and and you've you know uh been a great friend, you know, to the family, and when we have likewise.

I appreciate appreciate the question and appreciate the time here.

Thank you, councilman.

Uh my dad has a saying except for on your birthday, nobody likes surprises.

And I think that's a really important thing about how we should be doing planning, right?

On this idea that we shouldn't be sneaking things on, people don't want things dropped on them.

And it takes time and effort to do that work, to talk, to listen, and to collaborate.

And I think that it's going to be incumbent upon a lot of uh a lot of the folks, not only at the commission level and council level, but also at the staff level to do the work of working with neighbors, working with uh the partners in the development, not just the community organization, but also developers and bringing those together.

I remember many times back when my children were very little and I had multiple evening meetings uh working at the city and coming home and been remembered my wife asked me once, it's like why are you doing all these evening meetings?

I said, because I would rather have a hundred evening meetings than have one bad council meeting.

No offense to my friends here at council, right?

But the idea being that it takes we have to have we have that obligation to do the work of outreach.

And I think that that's an important part of what we do so that we can make sure that everybody is on board with as we move forward.

We don't always have to agree.

People are not always going to agree, but we should not be surprising people.

I agree.

You know, this brings me back to uh Manchester Chateau, my community very specifically having gone through uh starting in 2017 and in 2019, we completed uh a neighborhood comprehensive plan.

But that plan took 24 months.

We we structured the plan in such a way that we looked at pillars that were very important to the community.

Again, seeing what they wanted to be when they were complete, or when the community sort of grows up, so to speak.

And each of those categories of focus met consistently and for many weeks at a time, you're gonna find just as as uh Bob mentioned that everything isn't going to be important to everybody.

You're gonna find just as uh Bob mentioned that everything isn't going to be important to everybody.

Transportation might be important to one group, development might be important to another group.

Uh, but you've got to be there.

You've got to be uh available, you've got to be engaging.

Residents may or may not show up, but you do have to give them the time and the commitment that says that that what you want really is important, but then you also have to guide that process through uh planners.

That's why neighborhood planners are very important.

Uh because planners understand process, uh something that when people in a neighborhood say, I want a grocery store, I um you know, want an economic corridor, they don't necessarily know how that fits.

They don't know that um zoning will inform what can go where, uh, which is why legislation is also very important, and planners are important because they take back the messages from the community and are able to uh analyze that and then bring that forth to the department of planning, and then the department of planning can say, okay, here's what I think we heard, and then we can bring it back to the community and ensure that's the case, and then we can move uh procedurally the way that we need to be able to give the community what it is that they're looking for, and it becomes a win-win, right?

Council uh is is leading its constituency base in the direction that the residents want to go in.

I'm gonna knock on wood before I say this because I do not want this to happen.

Uh but if we had to eulogize Pittsburgh, I think that the autopsy would say death by parochialism.

And what I mean by that, I think that when we draw lines psychologically because we've always been here and we care about this place, when other people come here, those lines mean nothing to them.

And I'll give a very quick example.

I had a very good friend who came here from DC, and she wanted me to go somewhere with her.

She's like, I'm gonna go down here and I'm gonna get a froyo.

And I'm like, we're black women, we cannot go there to get a fro you.

And she's like, what are you talking about?

I go there all the time, and I'm like, well, I'm telling you, I'm from Pittsburgh, and you're not welcome there.

And she's like, just try it.

I go there, I have the best experience of my life, and it completely changes how I think about living in this city as a native.

The lines that are drawn from me, the things that I care about, where I think I can't go or I can't be, to another black woman who comes here, she just sees opportunity.

She just sees all these wonderful places where she can exist and abide.

And it's programmed into us to think of our neighborhood, our community.

And so I think a lot of what's happened is we're talking about community engagement, but we are not paying attention to civic engagement.

And we are sort of doubling down on the issue.

Yes, we need process for people to give feedback and to be incorporated, but we have a civic responsibility to leave this place better than how we found it, and if we are not careful, we will allow community engagement to become this tool that keeps us from doing the very thing that we want to do.

Community input is important, public input is important.

Let's be thoughtful about how we do that.

But net let's not create this monster that says, let the community who's already grit-locked into how we think and how we behave, keep us from the opportunities that are on the table, and our children will not understand some of these divisible lines, right?

That we're teaching them these things.

So we need one strategy, one look, and we uh it's cliche, but sort of this notion of one unified Pittsburgh.

We're creating a city, not an amalgamation of 90 different unique, distinct neighborhoods.

If we do this right and we do this well, we can breathe new life into community and get a better, more civically engaged process where people are less resistant and they start pushing us to do what it is that we're supposed to be doing versus us going to them and saying, give me 10 reasons why not to, when really we only want one.

Last note.

Uh, when we do a choice neighborhood and the federal government says I'll put 30 million dollars in, you don't get a lot of community resistance.

We need to be a choice city.

When the resources are clear and the alignment is clear, people coalesce around that.

They fuss, they fight, they argue, but when we're thoughtful, everybody starts to put in the the work that's necessary to be done, and you get the track kind of transformation that we've seen in the East End.

Why don't we have that transformation in the in the North South?

Why don't we have that transformation in the Hill District?

Why is that transformation not an uptown?

Why is it not in Larm?

Because we're not treating ourselves like a city of choice, and I don't want us to use the community engagement process to continue doubling down on that.

To add on a little with the doctor was making some some amazing points.

And and I know that it's it's easy for me to sit here and talk about yes, more communication.

We we've heard that.

You know, development, no matter it is for housing or it is for commercial.

It's not a book.

It doesn't have a beginning and an end.

It's just like the life of a tree.

You don't plant a tree just to look at the stump.

You plant a tree to watch it grow.

If things go around it, that is that is what the true definition of investment and development is supposed to be.

Do I think that you know our residents are no different than anyone else?

You know, they want to be able to see what if they are losing something, what am I losing and what will be replaced?

Is it better?

Yes.

We are not in the business of standing still.

And that goes hand in hand.

We're talking about as far as abandoned homes and things of that nature.

But you know, yeah, naturally it is it is a human instinct as city as we are, that having something taken away from you is bad.

Because for a long time that the answers weren't fulfilled.

Um I I just think that as we go forward, that we are open-minded a point where we need to look at what this development will be five years downline, and it is the job of developer to prove that.

Councilman, uh I think that public engagement, community input is a necessary and critical part of the land use process.

And for my part, what I'd really like to see is the process be more inclusive of everyone.

And let me tell you what I mean by that.

Um not everybody has the ability to show up at a hearing at 130 p.m.

on a Tuesday.

Not everybody has the ability to show up at a community meeting at 7 p.m.

on a Wednesday night.

You know, people have uh job responsibilities, they have child care responsibilities.

And I think a lot of times we center our community engagement around who can show up to a meeting as opposed to really trying to solicit feedback from people.

Um, I think ultimately that leads to outcomes that are not always in the public's best interest.

You know, we need to think about how can we engage people in a more inclusive way uh as opposed to you know only through who shows up to speak.

Uh Councilman Mosley, nice to meet you as well.

Um to address your question, you know, I I believe that you know, as as commissioners, um, it's our responsibility um to do our best to understand the history and and state, you know, current state of each neighborhood within the city.

Um, you know, and especially that those neighborhoods that haven't seen you know the the level the level in the of investment is others.

Um, for the problems that I think that we're discussing here today, um it's gonna take you know, really you know, all of us as uh residents of city uh of the city and um you know folks from from outside the city as well to tackle these problems.

Um I I mean that from both you know multiple levels of um the of of government as well as is the private sector.

Um for this table, um I think that means you know effective and you know modern zoning policy and um uh um permanent um um sorry um uh this uh uh permanent reform as well.

Um I think you know one thing that it uh stuck with me you know is as I was speaking to um many folks in uh the community is part of um you know looking to join the planning commission.

And you know, one thought stood out that yes, Pittsburgh is a is a city of neighborhoods, um, and that's what you know a lot of ways makes it special, but it really is one city, and we need to stop thinking about um development, you know, from from all sides of you know from from the private and public sector, you know, by by neighborhood and more is um as a full city.

Thank you.

Councilman, thank you.

Great to meet you as well.

Um I think the thing that excites me about this opportunity, I look forward to to visiting more with you and learning from you, is that history.

Like the the reality is that we have to begin by accepting that every individual, every community has their own life experience, their own history that has led to the positions and the viewpoints that they have.

And I think it's important for us to understand exactly what that is.

Like why is it that these communities have have these views and and what can we do in this process to I think you know what Mr.

Repi was saying, make the process more predictable.

Like have folks understand, hey, this this is what that process is going to look like.

Operate with that transparency so that so that they know when they come before the commission, when they bring projects before here, they know what to expect, right?

And I think that that's what leads to building uh more unity across the city.

I mean, Dr.

Walker, I apologize for calling you Mrs.

Walker earlier and not Dr.

Walker.

Um I think her point about you know coming to a city as an outsider.

I came to Pittsburgh and I didn't see many of those lines.

That doesn't mean that they don't exist.

And even though I may not have seen them when I first came to the city, it's it's incumbent on me even more so now in this position to understand why, to understand what those are and to be sensitive to to the fact that that is that is another individual that is another citizen's reality even though it may not be mine.

Thank you and I'll just have like one or two other questions because I know there's a lot of questions and I don't want to take up all the oxygen oxygen.

I I guess my next question you know is about you know what I think is really you know the 800 pound gorilla in the room is this debate um that we've been having across the city it's a debate that we've been having at this table I feel like it's probably the it's been the most contentious debate that we've had over the last 12 um to 18 months particularly my time and my two plus the years on council is is you know how do how do we you know balance you know to need the need for for growth that I think we all agree you know the city needs to grow we don't want to stay at 300,000 people when we have an infrastructure for I think at uh the 1950 census was about 676 thousand so actually closer to 700,000 than then 600,000.

So that's the the infrastructure that we stand on and route on is built for more than twice as many people that live in the city um as it as it exists right now.

So just that fact alone obviously calls for a a need for for us to grow but obviously because of you know the generational trauma and the red line and and and policies and things that have created you know this this situation where even though you know if you go to San Francisco or you go to Minneapolis or go to Charlotte and you talk about the housing prices in Pittsburgh obviously every publication says um this is the most affordable uh a big city in the country but I know when you go to my constituents in Homewood and Lincoln Lemmington and Larmer and parts of East Liberty um you know that I I can bring the stack of every newspaper and magazine in the country that talks about the affordability of Pittsburgh and and and even if I have the eloquence of of Dr.

Walker trying to explain why um I'm gonna have a really hard time you know um you know explaining um you know why is that the case so my question is is is um you know your thoughts of you know how can we you know in in in an authentic way you know you know address the to need to grow while also addressing this real anxiety this real fear and that's the a lot of the pushback that we get some some of the pushback that you get from some of the the the the comments um that that that that have you made and I'm not here to cast any aspersions but just to you know um just to speak um you know to to the issue is that you know in the communities that serve you know is such uh a fear where you know in some places me and Dr.

Walker have talked about this in the past where I have constituents and that's why you know we've had our debates about the the the uh the loop legislation you know you shared your feelings you know I I've shared mine's and one of the reasons why I have been in support of it because I have uh neighborhoods where folks do not want their property to go up in value you know what I mean which you know I mean which is you know obviously kind of counterintuitive to the idea of buying property and and generating wealth um because they feel like their you know their taxes are going to go up which makes it harder for me to push that housing project that maybe pro housing is actually in support of because I have residents that say no I bought this house for 30 thousand dollars in 1970 you know I mean and I wanted to stay assessed at 3000 dollars in the perpetuity um you know so and and I'm and and and and I'm not speaking you know um to it to be flippant or anything like that but there's a act there's a real fear that I think is a huge obstacle which is creating a lot of the tension that we have around this table and we have around the city you know when you know a new project um is proposed that may check all the boxes and and maybe a great project and and and and and people are in fear of that so I would love to get like get your thoughts of um you know tangible things that we can do to really you know close that gap and and and create the division of of Shane Phillips um you know he talks about you know how how the hell do we you know create a table where we have Nayop and the housing justice table at the same table rolling in the same direction saying this is something that that that we're both for because the reality of the situation is you know we we don't have that and I have a lot of respect for Nayop and I definitely have a ton of respect for the housing justice table folks I work with very closely on a myriad of issues in my districts I for I I apologize for for uh you know uh more preaching than then then uh then um then inquiry but um you know this is just such an important you know top topic of my dish but I would love to get your thoughts of really how do we balance like this this incessant tension that we have in this city where so many folks feel like it's one or the other we're either going to grow and ignore the affordability issue or we're gonna go all in on the affordability issue and and and not worry about growth I I I I'd be happy to start.

We're either gonna grow and ignore the affordability issue, or we're gonna go all in on the affordability issue and and and not worry about growth.

I I I I'd be happy to start.

Um, I think I I have a simple answer to a very complex problem.

Okay.

So you know the ultimately, if it's hard to build market rate housing, it's also hard to build affordable housing.

You don't get to choose one or the other.

Our zoning code applies to both of them.

Yeah.

And so we need to make it easier to build housing, and that's going to make it easier for us to build affordable housing.

It's going to make it easier for us to build mixed income housing, and it's going to make it easier for us to build uh market housing.

I also think that it's important that we communicate to people that the decision to build nothing does not make it more affordable.

It makes it less affordable.

If you don't build, people with money will go in and buy the houses, they will fix up the houses, and they will displace the existing residents.

If you don't build to satisfy the demand that there is for housing in our city, that's just going to mean that everybody is going to pay more.

That that is uh, you know, at the end of the day, what's going to happen?

Um, you know, the other thing that that you mentioned, like what can we do to help ease some of this tension?

I you know, I think one important thing, you know, that especially members of council and the mayor's office can do is think about how do we advocate to the state and to our federal officials for more funding for deeply affordable housing.

That's you know a critical problem that we have.

We don't have enough deeply affordable housing.

You know, we're talking like 30% AMI housing.

We don't have enough of it, and we don't have the money as a city to build it.

We need more money from the state government, more money from the federal government to help to bridge some of those gaps.

So I think that's what I would say uh to your question.

I know it's uh a lot of pieces to that.

But anybody else want to take it in?

Go ahead.

Everyone doesn't have to feel, you know.

It's kind of like what I would say.

I I I still will die on the hill of it, doesn't have to be either or getting there is I I understand that.

And that's a I think uh I think a few of us that are not this isn't somewhere we come up on understand that it there cannot be such a division.

We understand that there's there's no doubt, there's no doubt about it.

But um yeah, I'm not afraid to say, yeah, I have some we have some stuff to learn.

But I I just think that it's almost uh identified right off the bat, no matter what happens, the walls up boom.

And that's just it can't be.

Good.

One of the things I was hoping to see happen, particularly with the legislation around the the tax um uh being patient around tax increases legislation.

Um so in neighborhoods where you have residents who are on fixed incomes who know that when their properties are assessed higher, they've now got to take a fixed income and pay higher taxes, the mortgage is paid off.

You know, one of the things I've been asking to understand is there legislation that could potentially not have that new assessed value take place until the house is sold.

So the person in there is paying the the grandfathered rate that allows new housing to come in to lift values for everybody.

And the reason why this is important to me is because I have a house in the Hill District, and I couldn't get 25,000 worth of equity to fix up my home because the tack the assessed values of the homes near me were so low because the neighborhood has been fighting against the type of housing development that would increase values in the Hill District.

So those that have been early investors, private investors, homeowners, could extract not even to extract wealth, but to make sure that I can continue to live in my home because I can make critical repairs.

The second thing that I that I will say is that we need the reason why we have affordable housing issues, we have a very dysfunctional public sector housing developer.

We do we are talking about inclusionary zoning and all of these tools.

We are not talking about the instrumentalities that need to function to be able to make those tools accessible in a way that moves at the speed of business for the private market.

We don't talk about it, we're not contending with it or with it, or at least I have not seen it.

The third thing that I would say is that it's not an either-or strategy, and I do think there's a scenario where NIOP and the housing justice table could sit together, but I don't think that's a conversation around housing.

I think it's a conversation around wage stagnation.

We are crying for affordable housing because people are not earning what they need.

So somebody else in Chicago who has the ability to earn 230,000 dollars here in Pittsburgh truly believes this is an affordable city.

Somebody living in Pittsburgh who is cleaning toilets at UPMC making 17 dollars an hour, and that's not to pick on them, but they are looking and saying, how can I afford a two-bedroom for $1,400?

So it's all relative, right?

We are not having the wage stagnation.

So when we talk about growth and opportunity, we keep talking about should we build more housing, should we build less housing?

Where is the actual opportunity to have the earning capacity so you can decide to buy market rate housing?

That's something that is that Pittsburghers deserve.

And and again, I don't want to call it market rate versus affordable.

It's subsidized versus unsubsidized.

If you want affordable housing, who is going to subsidize it, who's going to pay for it, and how do we create pad ready sites and eliminate blight in a way that can make that more possible, co-opting the private and public sector markets.

I think it's also very important that my community very specifically is suffering from this right now, a fear of gentrification, right?

We've got a huge development project that's coming, and what's that going to do to my property values?

And we need to ensure that we're educating, you know, making sure that people can apply for the homestead, making sure that responsible development brings with it solar opportunity, ways for our seasoned population, which is like what I call our elderly, um, have the ability to participate in reducing their utility usage costs by some other form of um uh of opportunity, right?

And uh I I think that we are asking developers to come in and say this same unit that I'm gonna sell for market rate, um, I need to build and it's going to be affordable, and there is a little bit of tug-of-war, right, because they can't afford the subsidy between that.

But we need to begin to stack tools that we have, like the housing authority, for instance, has where you don't have to be a housing authority uh resident, but you can take part in you know, up to $80,000 worth of funds that could help someone to purchase.

You look at your housing opportunity funds, you've got to layer and stack all the resources that are out there.

And yes, that alone doesn't get you there.

Uh but just like housing and neighborhoods and diversifying um socioeconomically and in every other way, there is no one right answer.

There is no one wrong answer, with the exception of if we are, you know, not taking a little bit and putting a little bit on our plate to make a full plate, then you know, nobody's ever going to be satisfied.

So we've got to figure out how to do that and and extract from different resources to make everyone full.

I think one of the things that I've been hearing from the from my my uh counterparts here, and I think it's important to take away, is that you know this is a Pittsburgh is a urban a dense urban complex organism, and there is not one magic bullet that's going to solve all of our problems.

And I think it's the role of the planning commission to organize and work with staff to organize the various multi-pronged approaches that can be taken.

What might work in one neighborhood is not necessarily the same good for the next neighborhood.

And part of our role and part of the role of the planning department and the planning commission to kind of enable that is to identify where strategically how we can use certain tools in some places and certain tools in the other places, with the underlying goal of actually uh of course of growing the city in ways not necessarily equally in uh in how we do it, but equally in how we get there together.

I would agree.

Thank you.

Yeah, I'll I'll defer back to the chair.

Thank you.

Allow my colleagues to ask questions as well.

Congressman Calker.

Thank you, Mr.

President.

So I I want to start with my friend here, Darren.

Darren, you had how many years with the fire department?

Twenty-six and a half.

Great years, greatest years of my life.

Now I know you retired from the labor council.

I did not know you retired from the fire department.

Absolutely.

Oh, well, congratulations.

Uh you know, and great career.

I wouldn't give it up to be a doctor.

Yeah.

Serving the residents of the city was the is amazing.

And it was probably arguably for me your most important role that you played in your career.

However, what you did with the labor council over eight years you've been there, eight years?

Yeah, it's eight years.

You've taken in bringing in Fayette County into the into the mix, and now you're with the labor council.

So I don't think anybody's been more qualified to come to this table for a position that you've never done before in the planning department because you've worked, you've seen and I don't know the process that the planning department takes and what you're allowed to take in account and what you're not allowed to take in account.

But what's important to me, which I know is also important to you when we have big development in the city of Pittsburgh, that it is our local labor are building trades and our labor unions working at these facilities and building these facilities.

And and again, I don't know if you could even answer that, but you know, if uh if if even if you can't take that in the process today, I know it's always in the back of your mind, but um yeah, so I'm not sure if you could factor that in when you're making these your decisions or not.

You know, what's funny is that I I understand that there are guard rules or guardrails, but not in society, not in my mind, and not with the American dream is.

Um why I say that is that you know, we we we are talking about housing, and everybody's American dream starts around where they lay their, you know, lay their head at night, where they make their memories as a family, um, where they grow up, where they do their thing.

But ultimately, and I agree with everything everybody said, is that will I look favorably on someone that is paying family staying wages, retirement with dignity, access to health care, money going back into my my neighborhood damn right I will.

And I don't care if it's within the law or it's my law, it's what I see because it is very counterproductive not to have um people working for multi-million dollar developments and not even had the ability to pack their lunch.

Um no, it is a I will always believe on a trickle out aspect of of our economy, and because it's uh development's supposed to spearhead, not just homes or businesses, it's supposed to feed into what we look at as as the American dream.

And and I I I was gonna say that to but that's that's I will that is a hill that I will die on, not as just as a union leader, but a father, um somebody that you know has taken a knee many times to for our as I for our city, all of us, because we know nothing goes hand in hand more than your dream or where you raise your family, but your ability to feed it.

And if you don't have that engine pumping at the same time, it doesn't work.

Right.

And that's and and I'll always say it, because if you say and I I don't mean to go on that that type of tangent, but the more money you have, the more you spend.

The more you spend, the more taxes are made, your better schools, better roads, better public safety.

It's not rocket science, right?

And nor should we ever shy away from that.

And I never will.

I expect no less from this man.

I'm sorry.

Let me tell you, you could take the man from the labor council, but you can't take the labor council out of the man.

Sorry about that everyone.

So you know, uh, I expect no less, and it's just common sense, it really is when some big developers come in here and you know getting awarded a job, especially when it's you know, uh subsidized, and uh the workforce is from Dallas.

Well, they're gonna go back to Dallas and spend their money in Dallas and their kids' schools and clothes and you know, restaurants and shops and everything like that.

So that's why I'm glad you're here, buddy.

And uh yeah, I expect no less.

So thank you for the wonderful career you had fire.

I didn't realize you're retired, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that.

I but you were having retirements all over the place for the last month.

And I didn't go far.

You didn't retire any better, but yeah, in all seriousness, um to everyone at the council, yeah.

Um majority of the members called me and but to be honest with you, I should uh uh my thanks to the city residents.

Right.

It is the it was the greatest honor to serve this population.

For twenty-six years, it made me everything I am.

So that's why I'm here.

I you know what I I don't care if I had ten million dollars I wouldn't be in Florida.

This is this is my home.

Right, right.

Okay, but thank thank you.

Thank you so much, uh Mr.

Kelly.

I guess I gotta call you now.

No, never be there when we're uh, you know.

So um so so to the rest of the Sean, I I want to, you know, congratulate you on the Esplanade that I know you were facing opposition there.

Uh to me, I feel like that was such a gross it's gonna be such a gross spark for the city of Pittsburgh expanding down the Ohio River.

Um there's you know, just ripe for development there.

I travel that way every day, and you're right, 65 kind of shut it off from the whole uh I I I take in count you made Manchester happy and the neighborhood happy as to you know benefits that they might be receiving.

I know our council president was heavily involved in that too.

Very much.

But uh but but it's all go now.

I know they've had the uh ribbon cutting and all, and congratulations on that.

And I know you've served on the board for years now, right?

Or the planning commission.

Yeah, right.

I have so uh so welcome and you'll have my confidence I know your record, sure, sure.

And Dr.

Walker, uh didn't you serve in the URA too?

Yes.

Okay, okay, I remember.

So you too come in uniquely qualified because you know you're seeing uh a lot of different aspects of of government here.

Um so Mr.

Vatts, we're very familiar.

Uh you know, we've had many conversations particularly through the inclusionary zoning uh debates that we've had over the past year and a half, you know.

Bats we're very familiar uh you know we've had many conversations particularly through the inclusionary zoning uh debates that we've had over the past year and a half you know I appreciated many of your views I will tell you and um you know I I'm in agreement with most of your views I will tell you as to housing goes like you say um like you told um Councilman Mosley if you can't build affordable housing you can't build market rate housing it's uh it all goes together it's not necessarily just a trickle down effect it's just building housing everywhere um yeah and had your name David Justin Justin Justin not familiar Justin I know you say you're from Charlotte um I'm from you worked in Charlotte I still worked in Charlotte okay right right Charlotte compared to Pittsburgh is it anything uniquely different about how we approach things here or grab the microphone start about that um say say this the city is you know growing by percentage points you know each year uh Charlotte yeah right you know I I saw really first hand what that economic growth meant you know across the city and you know Charlotte society um I'd say you know um with regards to how you know housing policy and zoning um in my opinion for you know much more housing you know friendly and in pro housing um and I think that's Charlotte yes and and you know as a result um Charlotte's seen you know seen significant you know rent decreases across the M the MSA over the past few years um and and overall I'd say there's a so much positive energy in in Charlotte around growth you know again felt throughout um through throughout the region that um in my opinion and one of the reasons I'm back here this is this is my home but Pittsburgh has got it all over Charlotte um in terms of the community the the neighborhoods the the anchor institutions that Erica um or sorry council person um so I'm excited to be home and very optimistic about the the city's city's future great great thank you Justin and okay uh welcome to Pittsburgh you're in the new you say you've been here three years uh seven years oh seven years oh you've been back for three years Justin right okay gotcha um and you visit Pittsburgh uh board yeah yeah uh you know I work closely with Gerard and you know they're obviously involved big time in the NFL draft yeah really appreciate and I I think they they do they do really good work so uh I appreciate the work you do there I look forward to getting to know you better working more with you so welcome welcome and Bob I wasn't familiar with you but you go way back in government I I I hear yeah yes I do back to the Murphy administration way back right yes good good so I'm sure you've had your hands in a lot of different uh avenues as far as city government goes and have seen a lot of different from both sides for both from being working at the university but also working in the city and seeing both sides of it and the benefits of both.

Yeah right you still work for the university yes I do.

Oh yeah okay good great great um your daughter did you say just yeah one a great perk from working for the city of uh the for for Pitt isn't it yeah yeah I'm not CMU but it's CMU the kids are at Pitt yeah yeah okay great great um so um I just want you all to know one thing right when there's an important decision whether it be housing or blight or you name it that comes to you um we are very interested in that always I would just ask this of you always please talk to first and take the opinion of the council representative who's representing that neighborhood of whatever development or whatever it is that we're talking about because I stand by and I still believe that we are on the front line we know what our neighborhood wants or doesn't want in specific I think more than anybody and we are the ones that are going to be held accountable every four years because uh you know at the voting booth so so so you know I really do feel like council members have the best perspective as to what is good for a neighborhood and what is not and and you know whether it's coming to the community meetings but I just implore you to reach out get the perspective of if it's a hotly debated issue of that council member okay uh in moving forward on any any any development of any type or any sort um with that being said I want to say this um I represent the South Hills uh I know Darren's familiar with the South Hills I know you're from Mount Lebanon originally David so you're familiar with my neighborhoods I'm not sure if you all the rest of you are or not we don't have big development areas there's nobody putting up 600 unit apartment buildings in my district nobody even proposing it right however we do have a lot of old schools we have a lot of we have a lot of land you know uh that's that's buildable upon and we are very pro-development in my district I will tell you so uh however I think we're always overlooked it's not so much cities fault I think the proprietors the the developers they always want to be in Lawrenceville and selling five hundred thousand dollar units and you know we can't walk the downtown from my district but I now and I credit the new administration largely in having open talks with developers now who are looking into the South Hills because other areas are saturated I will say you know um for development and uh you know and what's wildly popular in my district is senior affordable

I think the proprietors, the the developers, they always want to be in Lawrenceville and selling $500,000 units, and you know, we can't walk to downtown from my district.

But I now, and I credit the new administration largely in having open talks with developers now who are looking into the South Hills because other areas are saturated, I will say, you know, um, for development.

And uh, you know, and what's wildly popular in my district is senior affordable housing.

Because we're all growing out, it's we're probably 80 plus percent single family residential homes there, right?

We don't have big apartment complexes.

If we do, it's usually county or city owned, you know.

So um I'm promoting development in my district.

We don't want to become centrified, we don't want to become overrun.

Um, but at the same time, there is a lot of room for development, and there are some good things that will be coming in front of you, I think, in the next three to six months that are going to be instrumental in my district of developers that I'm working with.

So uh really good.

Um I want to go back to the inclusionary zoning debate to some degree, okay.

Uh when we were going on about that debate, you obviously were in the middle of this, and so were you, David.

But uh I always say, you know, our city is so different, every neighborhood is so different, right?

I supported inclusionary zoning in Councilwoman Gross's district seven, which was Poolish Hill, Bloomfield, and Lawrenceville.

Okay, started in Lawrenceville, right?

And that was because she took me through her district, and I swear to you, we went up the street one day and back the next day, and there was new housing going up, right?

It was just being saturated, right?

It was uh, you know, every I I feel like if largely credit Councilwoman Gross and her fighting the you know developers, they they would have knocked down every row house there was in Bloomfield and in Lawrenceville and build six hundred thousand dollar condos.

I felt it was appropriate.

I voted for it there.

I was adamantly against it, as you know, in my district because it was hard for me to attract development.

You know, people were like I I talked to all well, not capital, I talked to all the developers.

Why don't you come over my way, you know?

You can build condos here, you build condos there.

Uh, you know, they want to be able to be in Lawrenceville and you know, and Bloomfield and you know, the South Side and all these uh, you know, you know, uh I don't know, popular districts for the young people will say.

I don't I don't know how to categorize them.

But but now I see that changing because I see uh the expense that it requires to, you know, and especially where it is selfishly.

I I didn't vote for it for this reason, but inclusionary zoning, I feel are like kind of drawing people my way uh to some degree because you know my neighborhoods don't have it.

I was adamantly against it just because it was hard enough for me to attract development as it was, and when we put that on a developer, um it was just like it was just like the developers I talked to, they're like, just forget it if if it goes citywide.

So I was against it.

Um I am for it in certain neighborhoods.

I feel like there are set other neighborhoods that could be added to it, maybe just to curb the development if and and maybe spread it out a little bit towards my way and other other way, other parts of the city.

But um, I just want to get your thoughts on inclusionary zoning citywide now.

It's not in front of us anymore.

Uh I hope it doesn't in front come back to in front of us.

I would say any council member that feels that their district needs it in a certain neighborhood or certain neighborhoods, I'm likely to be supportive of it because uh they're they're bringing it to us for a reason.

So I just want to get your thoughts on inclusionary zoning citywide or not, and just brief.

Sure.

I as I kind of said earlier, inclusionary zoning is a tool.

It is one of many tools that the city can bring to bear to bring towards housing development and better housing throughout the city.

I look at areas like in Brooklyn along the boulevard areas like that where focus on business development may be more appropriate because that's going to help attract people to move to Brookline, right?

Or you look at other areas where you're looking at maybe it's more public housing component of kind of changing the dynamics of how public housing has been, as we saw in Manchester uh over the last 25 years with the Hope Six development that was done there.

There are many tools.

There's not one, as I said, there's not one silver bullet that's going to handle all of these things.

We need to be looking at all of them and applying them strategically, or we need to.

Is strateg is inclusionary zoning useful in some places?

Absolutely.

Is it other places?

We probably not.

There are areas I think that we need to be looking at this strategically.

Access to neighborhoods could do go long ways towards getting area.

But you know, one of the things I like to think about or talk about is you know, Allentown, Belt Hoover, and Knoxville, there's lots of housing up there that is underserved and hard to get to, but could be added as could be added to the roles for the city.

So I think it's look it's a multi-dimensional way rather than a one-size-fits-all.

Thanks, Bob.

Yeah.

And I would agree with that as well.

Uh because I am a commissioner who was in the middle of the ISE very specifically.

I want to be able to convey here today that something that comes before us as a planning commission does not necessarily reflect our personal right.

Um I think that when you are reviewing as an advisory body, that's that's our role.

Uh we've got very specific criteria in which to do that.

And we looked at it through that lens, and I want to be very careful and mindful uh because I know the position that that some um council members may feel as it relates to the IZ and how that may have gone uh to just be very clear how I moved as it related to IZ.

It was more uh overarching and based on criteria and procedural process, and we have to have some neutrality when it when it comes to things that are brought before us, right?

Yep.

So you're welcome.

And so I I've been watching the dialogue and you know, and saw the 12 hour meeting.

All those things about this discussing this important issue.

One of the things that you know I will say is I I think we're we're it's a bit of a misstep on the part of Pittsburgh to look at inclusionary zoning in isolation.

It is one of many tools, and so I get a little bit nervous when we get really excited about one tool that can do one thing, and we are not looking at the full breadth of tools.

We're not looking at upzoning, we're not looking at density bonuses, we're not looking at incentives.

Is there a public subsidy that is available to signal that a city wide mandate would have resources available to make those projects economically feasible?

That is not a part of the c conversation right now.

I think we've taken the rhetoric around the fact that we know that we're a city that it is in need of affordable housing and we want to see affordable housing available in more neighborhoods other than the obvious neighborhoods, but I think it's also remiss to say that it hasn't been successful when used surgically, and that it is an important tool, and that when you have a very hot market where there is high demand, um an inclusionary zoning overlay is not likely to temper that demand because there's so much uh so many other things that are working for that market.

Our city is not homogenous, right?

Our city has very different topographies, very different needs, very different housing types and and and neighborhood types that I I think we need to be thoughtful about what is the sort of overlay or what is the suite of policies that we should be exploring that could benefit the city and then how do we deploy them in a way that we're using a scalpel and not a hacksaw because we could have unintended outcomes that we don't want to create trying to solve a rhetoric issue.

Let's get to the root of the issue and then let's use the tool in a way that makes sense.

It makes sense where it's been deployed, other areas, and when we hear market response that the market is not comfortable, and I'm gonna keep saying it, that our public sector entities are also not aligned and coordinated in a way to make this successful, we could have unintended consequences and by trying to do the right thing from a rhetoric perspective, we do the wrong thing from a results perspective.

So as a commissioner, I want to be thoughtful, I want to hear, um, I need to be more involved and engaged in the conversation, but I I also do not take a homogenous approach and I don't get excited about one tool that does one specific thing.

I want to understand what is the entire toolbox and how do we use it.

Thank you.

I I promise I won't go into that good death, but you know, it it I know that I keep repeating what I had said it it does not have to be an and or an or.

You know, I see it can be used as a sword or a shield.

And that's really is the truth.

I mean, it's we I I think that we all I think we can see there.

We got we don't we don't want to be have training wheels on anything.

We want to be able to look at each individual aspect and do what we think is the proper thing.

As long as whoever's buildings using our building trades, and we're fine.

Like I said, I'm not gonna lie, if if there is family sustaining wages and it's going back into these neighborhoods, right?

Absolutely.

I'll probably I'll stand on the top of the U.S.

steel building.

Absolutely.

So back in 2024, uh we produced a policy position on inclusionary zoning where uh the way that we thought it would be successful is if it were voluntary, if it was fully funded, if it was coupled with upzoning and if it was coupled coupled with permit streamlining.

Um I think we've talked about this ad nauseum already, so we probably don't have to talk about it much more, but you know the the bill that the mayor produced did not meet those standards for for me or for uh Pro Housing Pittsburgh.

And so uh we did not support uh the mayor's version.

Um we do support uh councilwoman Strasberger's uh version, which I know is supported by uh a majority of members of council, at least the last council to send it to planning commission.

Um and and it's because it does meet some of those standards.

It has um you know provisions for funding for dramatic upzoning for these affordable housing um developments.

Uh it talked about permit streamlining um and it was I think most importantly a voluntary program to ensure that you don't kill housing in the process.

You know, you want to first thing do no harm, right?

Make sure that you're not killing projects with a poorly designed policy.

Thank you, David.

Um it it's my position and thought that you know housing production you know is is one of the largest issues uh you know facing the city, but also really ev every city, you know, across the country, and you know, I I think that um is likely to be that way for you the next 10 to 20 years.

Um as you know, others at the table have said, I I think that you know that this issue is going to take you know a suite of you know different uh you know policy um work, both at the city um and state level.

Um I I'd say that you know over the past year, you know, I was I was not a supporter as a member of the um industry um of the previous mayor's bill.

Um that does not mean that I'm not um a supporter of you know some sort of uh um inclusionary zoning, you know, as as others have have stated, hit his policy was you know unfunded and unsubsidized um with 10 percent of units at a 50 percent of AMI level um you know over the past five years, you kind of as we've come out of COVID, construction costs are up 30 to 40 percent.

Um and you know, while while some projects may work with uh the previous made uh mayor's um uh you know policy um you know as a city and as a region, it will result in in less both um market rate and um mixed income and affordable housing as well.

Thank you, Justin.

Yeah, at the risk of being repetitive, I mean I think I think uh what a lot of folks are saying.

I want you to be repetitive on this one.

Yeah, it's it's it's it has to be uh you know, one size does not fit all.

Right.

And I think the one thing that I that I'll say that that resonated that that you said is at the end of the day, you are closer to your constituents than anybody else, right?

And we have to be willing to work and recognize that what what what works in one part of the city may not work in the other part, and the unintended consequences are very real.

If I heard you correctly, I think one of the unintended consequences of the policy actually benefited you, right?

And the fact that it moved some of those developments there.

But we'd like to think that.

I don't have proof of that.

Well, hopefully that's the case, and that was you know, that that is something that you welcomed.

Uh but I think it's important to understand what those consequences are, both positive and negative, and recognize that it what works in one part of the city may not work in another part of the city.

Right, right.

Thank you, Herrona.

You know, for me, the financial security of this city of Pittsburgh doesn't come in the way of raising taxes and uh, you know, um it really comes in the way of attracting people and building housing, right?

Uh as you said, Bob, we had I think it was you said we had we're we're half the population we used to be.

So we have half the income coming in, right?

So uh but we still have the same amount of bills, we still have the same amount of the same amount of police officers, but we have the same amount of pretty much every everything else.

So uh so really I'm looking for loosen up any red tape for building and permitting and just making sure that uh development we are ripe for development in the city of Pittsburgh in all the right and proper ways, of course.

And the reason why your recommendations are so important to us, maybe you know or don't know this, some of you, I know you know this, John, is if you come back with a negative recommendation on something that's very important in my district, it takes us seven votes to pass that thing versus five, the majority.

So it becomes very difficult to get seven for no matter the uh subject.

But uh but we usually are supportive of each other and each other's needs, but um when it comes to you know sensitive things like housing and stuff, it's hard to get to seven.

So so your recommendations are very important to us.

I have complete confidence in all of you.

I'll be supporting all of you.

Thank you for being here today.

Um you all did really great job.

Yep.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councilman Sharon.

Uh thank you.

Uh so I wanted to start off kind of the thing that we've we've all been talking about.

Um I've got a couple questions for all of you and then a couple questions for some individuals here.

Uh one of the things that I see as a a major challenge to Pittsburgh, um, and especially with the district that I represent, is that we desperately need to attract more investment here in Pittsburgh.

So I wanted to know from your perspectives as your role as commissioners, how it is that you see your role attracting investment.

And if I can uh add a little levity here, uh Dr.

Walker meant mentioned something that is very important to me.

Uh Froyo.

We have no Froio restaurants outside of, I believe, I believe Councilwoman Warwick's district.

Uh but I I say that to joke, but it I I really do like Froyo, and I have to drive pretty far to get it.

Um but in all seriousness, in your role as a commissioner, what is it that we can do?

Uh and I want to want to start to the right here to attract more investment in the city of Pittsburgh.

Sure, I think I think at the end of the day, growing the city is I think a goal that we all share.

I think it's an important goal for us to continue to thrive as a great great city and to support the the things that we want to do and to support the residents of the city of Pittsburgh.

And I think uh there's different ways that can be handled in different neighborhoods, as we've talked about.

You know, everything from historic preservation districts, which can be an economic development tool, to business development through the URA.

There's a host of different ways to be doing things throughout.

And again, as we've said, as much like inclusion Arizona, there's not a single way to do it.

We need to be tailoring things for that.

How we as Planning Commission members can make that happen is working with the planning staff.

We're the intermediaries, as as uh Councilman Codwill noted, we are advisory to the council uh on most things.

And so what we we're in that role, we have a transitional role of helping the planning staff bring things to to become policy, right?

And our job is to help make those make those determinations, make the tweaks as needed so that it moves from pol from planning and ideals to policy that can be enabled and enacted, right?

So I think part of that is going to be really working hard with staff, uh especially with the new planning director, I'm really excited to be working with in the new zoning administrator.

I think it's a new world for the city of Pittsburgh, and I think we need to be working with them in a more area that we're not just looking at just kind of react sitting back and reacting, we need to be more proactive in how we as commission members are involved in the things that come before us.

And I think I would answer that by echoing some of what Mr.

Repi is saying, but also adding to something you just finished saying, which is as commissioners, it's great to work with the planning staff.

But if we are also cognizant of the things that are going on within the districts very specifically, umbe doing tours, maybe having commission prior to something uh coming up really finding out what the pain points of a neighborhood are, what the positive things of the neighborhood are, so that we're capable with planning staff to ask the right questions that help you as a council member get to where you feel that your constituency base wants to be.

And that's something that that may be a missing ingredient in some of what we may have seen in in previous um administrations.

And I'll say that maybe that's something that we have to um change, right?

Because we can't get where you want your constituency base to be if we don't do all of the above.

So the and or uh it's the all of the all of the above.

So I'll say um we are a city with six Super Bowl rings.

Am I right?

All right.

So I I think one of the things that we need to do is uh because we're talking about investment, and investment is really predicated upon what kind of market signals you're sending.

And so I think as commissioners, we have a responsibility to be rational and to be predictable, right?

To bring a sense of, you know, when you're talking about attracting an investor, they're talking about taking on risk.

And so in a city like Pittsburgh, where we have a lot of opinions, strong opinions about a lot of different things, and we've got a lot of different directions that we want to move in, finding where we have common areas to send the right signals to be competitive.

I think sometimes we forget that we're not just building an insular city, we are building a city that is on a national stage that needs to compete with Cleveland and Toledo and Columbus and Indianapolis and DC and Atlanta, and you know, and probably have an easier time competing with Indianapolis than DC.

But my point is this I think we need to think of ourselves in terms of being winners.

And a lot of the time when we're talking about our problems, we're talking about them as though they're unique to us.

Every city is contending with these types of things.

It's not unique to Pittsburgh, but we need to demonstrate that we are best suited to receive and capture that investment because if you invest here in Pittsburgh, you're investing in a winning city with hardworking people, with vibrant neighborhoods, vibrant communities, investing, you know, civic engagement.

We're not sending those very strong signals right now.

And I'm hoping that my colleagues and I can work in tandem with you to not only analyze our problems, but to look at the optimization points and get very serious and very targeted about not only saying Pittsburgh is open for business, but Pittsburgh is able to respond and react and be proactive about creating an atmosphere where business can thrive, not at the expense of people, but for the benefit of the people that we serve.

And yes, that is the only one that's in the consul district five.

We're very lucky because my daughters make me go there all the time.

Yeah, she was she you're right.

Absolutely.

I think it would be very very naive for for any of us not to engage the elected ears and eyes of the city.

So you all know.

I mean, I I can't I talk to you all about pretty much everything.

That's not going to stop.

So I'll let the answer at that.

Um, one of the things as part of what I've been doing with Prozing Pittsburgh for the last four or five years, I've gotten the chance to speak to many home builders who are trying to build homes here in Pittsburgh.

And I especially, you know, I think sometimes we get uh you know, we're very insular in the way that we think about things, but uh, you know, getting the chance to speak with some of these home builders has given me the perspective of people who build not only in Pittsburgh but also elsewhere.

And the thing that I've heard time and time again is that Pittsburgh is one of the hardest cities to build in in the country.

And uh when I heard that, I was kind of shocked.

I didn't believe it, because again, I've only seen what we have here.

Um, and I think we know there are other cities where it's hard to build, but Pittsburgh is one of the hardest to build.

And uh, you know, a lot of times we have certain developers that maybe only build here, but there are uh many home builders that build all over the country.

And so if Pittsburgh is too hard for us to build, then they're going to take their capital elsewhere, they're going to build elsewhere, they're going to build homes elsewhere.

So uh, you know, I think you know one of the things that we can do to attract investment to the city is think about how do we streamline those rules, how do we make it so that it is easier to build so that people are saying Pittsburgh is one of the best places in the country to build, not one of the worst places in the country to build.

Um and that starts with council and the planning department and the planning commission.

Like it's all three of those uh that the need to work together to find ways to simplify our rules and make it easier to build homes.

Um it it's my thought that you know really all the challenges that we've discussed today um really come down to creating effective partnerships.

Um as commissioners, we have you know very unique and diverse set of professional backgrounds, so we'll be able to, you know, in my opinion, um provide many different lenses to create effective partnerships to drive investment.

Um as discussed by you know so several other you know folks um in response to your question, Councilman Charlin.

Um it is important you know for us to understand that you know folks looking to invest, you know, um you know dollars here from from outside the region um don't have the emotional um you know ties to the city that that we all have.

Um and so it you know it's it's uh it's especially important you know for us and and for the city you know to create effect to create those effective partnerships um with those looking to um you know improve our region and make them feel welcome.

Yeah, thank thank you for your question.

I'm not a fan of reinventing the wheel, right?

And I think that there are a lot of lessons that we can probably learn from other communities that are dealing with similar problems, right?

There are other cities across the country who have been trying to do some of the similar things that we are considering today, and I think it's it's probably beholden on all of us to go learn from those lessons.

I'll give you one, for example, that comes to mind.

I spent about 20 years living in Austin.

Uh Austin had a philosophy in the 1970s of eight and eighties that if we don't build it, they won't come.

Well, they came.

Right.

And and as a result of that, Austin today is probably one of the most unaffordable cities in the country.

There's been a lot written about what's happened in the city of Austin because the infrastructure that should have been built over the last 10, 20, 30 years wasn't built because there was a philosophy that they didn't need to build it back then.

And so I think we need to be looking at those communities across the country where we are competing for the same investment dollars and see what it is that they're doing to attract those problems, or the flip side, what is it that they're doing that's pushing those projects out of the city and learn from those lessons, right?

I I think history repeats itself, and I think we have an opportunity to learn from those communities so we don't make the same mistakes that maybe they are making.

Thank you.

None of you are are from our um, you know, from our our communities there.

Um although I do appreciate Mr.

Reppy, you did uh invoke some of the neighborhoods in my district that frankly I don't know that everybody you know is is even aware of where Knoxville, Belts Hoover, Arlington, most neighborhoods are.

Um Peterland's my favorite.

That's that's over that's him.

That's that that's Brooklyn.

That's that's that's that's not Hilltop.

Yeah, um, still my favorite.

But I do say that to say that um, you know, I think Councilman Congol kind of started this question here.

We have a perspective that you know none none of you, none of it is not any of your lived experiences, right?

It is it is what what we live and what we deal with in our constituents here.

So I want to know from your perspective how you plan on engaging with council members and how you plan on um respecting and and showing uh that the council members have sometimes a knowledge that you don't you don't experience, you don't live.

I'm happy to start.

Um I think my experience working at the university and working with neighbors uh around the university for the last 20 years has really given me an insight into this fact that it's all about communication, right?

Um we talked a little bit about not wouldn't be surprised and things like that, but it's also about working with the people that are there, having those relationships, putting in the hard work of talking to the folks that are on the ground there, right?

It's it's that's an important part of it.

We can we as Planning Commission members, we are represent we are not representing Region Square or any of the other neighborhoods we're representing this representing the city of Pittsburgh, which is all of the districts and all the neighborhoods, and so we need to in order to make informed decisions, we should be talking to the people who are on the ground there because they're the ones that have the kind of they're the ones that know what's going on.

They're the ones that are gonna be able to tell you, you know, we have a parking issue in this area, and we need to be able to solve that.

And you know, this this and this zoning answer, which might work for one neighborhood, is not gonna work here.

We need to be able to know that so that we can make informed decisions as we move forward.

And the only way to do that is by talking talking with you and with the community groups and with the the people who are actually living there in those neighborhoods.

This is planning is not something that that in my mind is not something that can be done top-down.

I will um echo some of that, but I I I probably wouldn't necessarily, as a planning commissioner, get in the trenches with um residents per se.

Uh, but I think council is a little bit different than that.

And I think that for me personally, prior to today's discussion at the table, I think it was when legislation is brought before us, right?

Uh, or when council members come before us, we hear you.

Uh we also hear public input often from residents uh as well.

But we've never, and and I don't exactly know why or or the answer to this, that there isn't something, not just when legislation is brought before us, but dialogue on a consistent basis because there are things that we really could learn from one another by doing that on a consistent basis.

I'm not saying every two weeks, I'm maybe not even saying once a month, but maybe once a quarter uh or you know, as things are coming down the pike and you're thinking about uh some level of legislation that you want to bring before us.

Again, I don't know why that conversation hasn't happened previously, other than uh just maybe walking a fine line and trying to be very careful not to have to recuse from something having too much information prior.

But I think it's gonna be a process.

I think it's gonna be a process that we have to build on and have to think through as both commission and um council members to really get the best value for our neighborhoods and for the residents of this city.

I think to do this right and to do this well, there is a level of interdependence and mutual understanding that has to be established here.

We certainly need to be independent as commissioners and unbiased and all of those things.

But to LaShawn's point, I think that it's very important that we have an understanding, and you are elected by the people.

You are the greatest representative of what the pe what the majority of people think in your district because they voted for you.

And I think Councilman Lavelle can attest to this during my tenure at the URA, it was very important to me to understand the council person's perspective when we had something in front of us that we needed to contend with.

And while I am not from one of your neighborhoods, I spent a good portion of my childhood uh in the Arlington area.

So I am familiar uh with the Style Hill South South Hills, and I went to Brashir High School.

So I spent four years going across the Liberty Bridge and through the tunnels, and most of my dear friends, people who are my friends today, come from the South Hills.

And so there is a very unique and special um relationship that exists there for me.

So I am thinking about you and your constituents as much as I'm thinking about the place that I'm from and the places that feel even more familiar to me.

So I want you to know that you have that level of respect and you have that level of understanding.

And again, we are a city.

It's not just about what's on this side of the river, but it's also what's happening in the West and what's happening in Hazelwood and what's happening in the South Hill.

So I do want to assure you that it is something that I think about.

I think it's material to the growth and future trajectory of our city.

We put a lot of emphasis on the east, but I think there's real potential that could be unlocked in the South, and I would love to see that as a Pittsburger.

Absolutely.

Personally, talk to everyone, and I think the last thing I said to every one of you was that I will need your help.

I think each of you can say that I said that same thing is because I believe in our democracy too much to know that you you you are their voice, or there will be a hundred thousand voices.

So it's important that all of you bring your voice for.

Yeah, I'll also be very brief.

You know, I think I speak to most of the members at the table uh on a pretty regular basis, and I think I would want to continue that relationship going forward to make sure that we always understand your voice.

Um, I think it you know coming into this role, um, it's important you know for for all of us, but you know, speaking for myself, kind of understanding my experience kind of growing up in district eight and now now returning to district eight and how um you know each the how each district you know is you know distinctively unique.

Um I think others have touched on this, but you know, I'll I'll add you know spending you know time on the ground as we do in um you know my my business.

It's not you know I'm not spending my days just behind my desk, but you know, in in the communities and understanding um uh you know everything there there is to do with you know a property in a neighborhood.

Thank you again for your question.

I I think from my perspective, my goal is to make sure there's no surprises.

Right?

We we don't ever want you to be surprised by anything that's happening.

I I would hope that over time I get to know each of the members of council well enough to where you know the questions that I may have or the guidance that I may come to you is not gonna come to you as a surprise, right?

And then likewise that you know you can come to us as well and have those conversations.

I mean that I I think several people have talked about like having that open dialogue, uh, and I think that has to be a part of the part of the equation to be successful at the end of the day.

Thank you.

And you know, the one thing that I uh will mention on this is that today's or you know, I guess we'll probably call the vote tomorrow on this is our only real opportunity as council members.

From that point forward, um the mayor can remove you at any point for any reason.

Um but we can't.

This is our this is our only check and balance.

So it is really important that we are respected as council members, and you know, that I want to hear that, I want to understand that process and help where your thought process is there, because we don't get another bite at the apple here.

And and for council members, you know, if we're going to be disrespected by a you know a commissioner, then that we're stuck with that for the next four years.

So with that, I do uh Mr.

Vatts, I do have a couple questions uh for you just because you know we've received a lot of letters here.

Uh and I wanted to talk a little bit about ProHousing um organization that you know you founded here and you were the leader.

What compensation do you get as the leader of the Pro Housing Pittsburgh uh chapter?

I I don't get any compensation.

Does the uh do members of Pro Housing get any compensation?

No, we're a volunteer-led and run organization.

And why do you think that pro housing has grown to the size that it is?

What what what is it that you think that draws people to that?

There's no compensation, people come out on a Tuesday to testify.

What do you what do you think makes that up?

I I think the price of housing and the rapid rise of the price of housing has become the issue of our generation.

You know, it's what everybody talks about because you know I I see my friends, my family, my colleagues struggling to afford housing in the city, moving out of the city because of it.

And you know, I think that that message really resonates with people.

You know, people understand that something is broken and that we need to fix it, and we firmly believe that the way to fix it is to build more housing and to make it easier to build more housing.

And what type of housing do you advocate for?

We advocate for all types of housing.

Uh I would say we do not discriminate.

We have advocated for mixed-income housing, affordable housing, market housing, town homes, single family homes, attached homes, apartment buildings, senior homes, um all sorts of housing.

And just to be clear, how long have you lived in Pittsburgh?

I've lived in Pittsburgh since 2004.

I uh moved here uh when I attended the University of Pittsburgh and made it my home after that.

Uh but I've lived in the Pittsburgh area my whole life, grew up in Mount Lebanon.

I did grow up south of the river.

Thank so maybe not your south south of the river, but south of the river nonetheless.

A little too far.

Yeah, a little too far, right?

Just over the border.

With that, that's all my questions.

Thank you, Mr.

President.

Thank you.

Councilwoman Salatero.

One of the things I wanted to, oh, thank you.

One of the things I wanted to talk about and to add a little bit about what my um colleagues here south of the river have said is that um it's very important we listen to what constituents say.

And when we get a response or an answer that they don't like, it doesn't land in the city council or I mean in the planning commission inbox, it lands on our labs.

So I'm curious, and I don't want to reiterate what everybody else has said, but um uh housing issues are not the only issues that's gonna come before you.

So I want to give you a scenario and see how you would handle this.

I want to know how you would approach a very contentious development with strong community opposition.

Because our op, you know, when we have an issue like that, my phone's ringing off the hook.

So I want to know how you approach going into that decision-making process knowing that you have a strong community opposition.

Um I'm happy to start first.

Um I I think the first step would be to call your offices, right?

Like to call your offices and understand, hey, help us give us some context here to help us understand what is it that your community is feeling, why is the community coming from this, understand you know, the history as we discuss with Consumel Mosley, what is their experience, what are their concerns, what are their fears, right?

And and and give give us that understanding uh with the experience that you have with the and point us in the right direction.

Who are the other groups that we need to go visit with?

How do we balance all of these different viewpoints and lean on your experience and the relationships that you have built in your communities to really help guide what are the different sources of information that we should be looking towards and how do we weigh each source uh and and each bit of information that we're receiving?

Uh but I think that has to be that first step to really understand uh the depth of that issue uh that you're certainly going to have more than we will.

Um I'll step back to you know the outcomes that you many of us have you know think are are vital for the city, you know, um going forward.

And that's you know, building out more housing of all types and and and growing the tax base.

Um so I think it's always important to keep those as our those two goals is our North Star.

Um but you know, to repeat you know some of the items that that he mentioned, um, bringing folks together and convening you know the the different partners that are you know at the table in order for these developments you know to to honest uh to to become a success.

You know, how how can you know folks on the development side um you know um listen to the the community and you know make some of the changes that they're that they're they're requesting.

But but again, um you know I I still come back to what are the the the two the two uh outcomes that I I started with.

Uh you know, I think that I would look at it as trying to understand all the information and all of the trade-offs.

Um I think that that includes hearing you know community voices who are in opposition.

I think it includes you know bringing in or engaging with experts who might be able to help understand, and I think it also includes engaging with uh the council members uh and the council offices to understand uh an issue.

And and I think importantly that allows us to be able to provide information back to you as the council member that you can use to share with your constituents of why we made a decision, what information went into that, and why we think we made the right decision.

You know, I I think the the biggest thing for me, the first thing that I'm gonna ask is I I want the history.

Uh what there's it just doesn't happen by accident.

There's a reason why.

I want to know what is the reason of such crazy opposition to anything.

Why why have we gotten the no so fast?

There has to be a history, and that's that's the first thing, and I'll get that from the council member.

That's the only place you can get it from, because they're in my sense would be the biggest neutral one at that time.

For me, I'd say that outrage is uh is data, and if people have a very strong opinion or very strong opposition to something, it means that it requires further exploration and thoughtfulness.

Um the way I think we're supposed to approach this is the code is our guide, and we are there to be fair arbiters of the code.

And so what I would say is that if we're receiving strong opposition, but let's say the code says this can be done and that you are permitted permitted to do it.

This is why I think where I spoke earlier about cultivating and building this relationship, because it's one part interpreting the code, it's another part trying to understand people and what they will experience because of what we decide.

And I think that's why the the relationship and the collaboration and level of coordination that can happen between this body and council to understand at a high level, you know, what are the priorities in the neighborhood?

And if there's a real issue, we may be looking at it with it may be signaling not a response to just the project, but is there a policy change that is needed?

Because we don't want to interpret code that is broken and is no longer serving people or could potentially be harmful to people and would need to be redressed.

So for me, I think outrage, um, it's not it's not meant to have an emotional or visceral response from us.

I think we need to use it as data, and if we're starting to see patterns, trends across how communities are responding to a certain development type or partner or approach, how can we look, you know, kind of go can the code serve us in addressing that?

And then how do we work with our civic partners to make sure that we do it right and do it well and and be thoughtful in our application of law and ordinance?

So good news or bad news, I've had the opportunity for this to actually pop up a number of times uh during the time that I've served.

And very often uh commission will receive uh letters, documentation, understand through uh the Department of Planning staff that there are um definitely signs of of issues and and concern, even when we get to hearing in action and there is a room full of folks that are giving testimony.

Um I have often personally said, hey, can we can we go back?

Can we have additional community conversation?

Uh very specifically pointing to council members and saying, you know, would you be able to coordinate something to find out if we can find some common ground.

Um doesn't necessarily mean that that always happens, but as planning commission, you know, we do have a set of of um criteria that we have to review something against.

And uh that doesn't always mean that the emotional side of that criteria is met from the community, but often if you send people back to the table to have conversation, they can come up with something that is a common denominator or something that is neutral enough to be able to move the project forward in a more positive way than it was you know prior to just arriving at hearing an action and being frustrated.

We also have to uh be mindful that as council members, you're legislative.

As commission, we are an advisory body.

And in that we we need to be very responsible that for you as council members, any action that we take is defensible.

And you've got to be very careful um with that.

So uh typically if something is signaling that it's very problematic, then we like to send the community back with council to review and really come up with something better.

I'd like to echo my colleague to my right here.

Is that having spent staff many 10 years working at a staff at to the planning commission through some tumultuous items in the past Summer said at Frick Park, the urban development of downtown and Fifth and Forbes that ended up ultimately not happening?

There's a handful of those that we work through.

And I think I've heard from a lot of my colleagues a lot of the means that are here.

First, before you can figure out where you're going, you have to understand how you've gotten to where you are.

I think that's an important part.

And that's gonna involve working with council members, working with community groups to understand what why are we at the point we are at.

But then most important again, I think our job as commission members is interpreting it in and working within the zoning code, Title IX of the City Code.

We need to be that that is our vision or prism of which we review things with.

And our and our job ultimately, as I kind of said earlier, is act as translators between the pot the planning side of it, what the planning ideals are coming up, and the policy side, which is really where your role is in how we can best work to support the role that council ultimately will have in all these.

The vast majority of the things that will come to the planning commission, the commission is advisory to council on.

And so therefore it is our job to make sure that we're vetting the planning components, those kind of nuts and bolts stuff of the pl of the zoning code to make sure that when unfortunately you guys will have the harder decision, the more political decision to make when it comes to those some of those parts.

Our job is to really to vet those those zoning issues, those planning issues that we need to help for you to make the right decisions.

Thank you very much.

I don't have any other questions.

I just want to say thank you to all of you for your willingness to serve.

Um I know it's not easy, you all serve on other boards, and I appreciate your time.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councilman Warwick.

Thank you.

Thanks.

I know this has been long.

It's gonna get longer.

Um yeah, so um you know, the planning commission, I would argue the planning commission and the commission on human relations, when it comes to we have lots of boards and commissions, right, right?

Lots of commissions of the city.

But when it comes to um consequential impact on the on the the l lived experience of Pittsburghers, people here now and people who will come in the future, those two commissions, right, uh are very important, right?

So these are I mean not to minimize the other commissions and everybody who serves on on those uh, you know, but but so that's why I think this is such an important conversation and why all members are here for this interview, right?

Um so at any rate, so with that, so I I do have a lot of questions.

I probably know this is long, but I do have a lot of questions.

Um not everybody has to answer all these questions.

That is not that's not necessary.

Uh uh but and and um but at any rate, but if you would like to, right, uh then I'll you know, of course, uh everybody should feel free.

So um the first question I have, and I'm gonna direct this to Mr.

Rabby, right?

Is um when I came to City Council, um it was sort of the the thing that brought me into city government was a community fight over a publicly subsidized road for ostensibly CMU and Pitt, more or less, and and a local development.

And this road was gonna be paid for by public dollars, and it was gonna run through a public park, right?

So this concern about development, you know, private development in public spaces.

And the reason I'd like you to answer first is that you know, CMU is all over the city, right?

Um and you do actually support lots of development that does but so for example, flagstaff steps, right?

Like that is gonna enhance the park, it's gonna end you're paying for it, right?

But but there's uh a difference between that and say a mon Oakland connector.

So as the commission, and and and again, if if you feel like uh if if it's a relevant question for you, feel free to answer, but I'll start with you.

Getting from one place to another is we know in Pittsburgh it's always the one of the biggest challenges.

One of the great things we have is topography.

One of the kind of detriments we have to getting around is topography.

Uh I think you know, the the ability to get from Squirrel Hill from Oakland to Hazelwood, I think is paramount for the growth of the city.

That's really Hazelwood is where the future of the city economic growth is going to be in my mind.

And I think that that's really important.

How do we appropriately get there from this from the from the universities where the kind of the thoughts and the research are happening to where the jobs are going to be created is going to be a real challenge.

Uh there is no good answer.

I think trying to, you know, shoehorn in uh a busway through back and forth between theirs through the park is a problematic idea.

There's we also know that Bates is problematic.

Uh there's a no hand, there's there's not a good way to get there.

I think it's gonna be up to the kind of creative talents that come out of the planning department uh to do so.

I think that then that was part of where some of the disconnect was in the last round on the Mount Oakland connector is that there was not enough of kind of the planning and transportation component.

It was seen as a public works project rather than coming from a planning perspective on that.

And I think that that's in order to make good decisions, you have to go through the rigor of looking at the various alternatives.

That's why, for example, federal funding for transportation takes so long, because you are required to look at multiple different uh iterations and then vet them.

And I don't think that that was done in that case.

Uh I think it was just kind of seen as okay, this is the easy the path of least resistance.

Uh so you thought that's what we're doing.

So we so they thought uh for that.

I think that all being said, I think that it is for the city to thrive, we're going to need to have better connections between our neighborhoods, uh, between you know, between Hazelwood and the South Side, between the South Hills and uh and the South Side.

I think all of those connections are important.

And I think it's behooves us to work as both council and your po your positions and as the as commission members to work with the experts, the professional planners, especially the professional transportation planners to come up with series of options that we can look at that then work together to vet to come up with what is the best solution.

Yeah, um that's that's an interesting answer.

And um I think too, it just sort of an extension of that, if anyone has is, you know.

We talk a lot about parking and zoning, right?

Like we are a city that is grow, we're just adding cars and cars and cars and cars, but the reality is is that nobody wants, I mean, at least not in the modern age, right?

When you're moving from the Bay Area, the tri-state area, Chicago.

You don't want to come to a city where you have to get in your car to go a mile and a half, right?

You want other options.

So are there ways that the commission can help encourage that?

But it's interesting, I remember once having a discussion back when my in my city planning days with the Mont Washington CDC, and they were that was just when up in the CDC they were working with the grocery store had just opened, and there was a lot of kind of positive moves happening up on Mount Washington, and some of the neighbors were complaining about now that there was a parking problem.

And I remember one of the at the time, Susan Brandt, who was the executive director of the CDC said, you know, parking problems are not yes, they're problems, but that's an indication that there's life there, right?

You we that's where cars go where people go, right?

And if you want people to be in your neighborhoods, if you want people to be in your in your residential areas and your business districts, we're going to have to think about how we deal with cars.

And I think we need to do a better job of that.

You know, that probab one of the kind of the big hindrances of the zoning code that we have that shame on us back in the late 90s and early 2000s, we didn't quite fix right, was what is the requirement, what's the right requirement for parking.

Doing it on a per square foot basis, X number of building yields X number of parking spaces is an outdated and frankly suburban model for how we deal with parking.

And I think we need to be smarter.

I I know we can be smarter on how we deal with parking than just using formulas.

We should be on the parking authority board.

Um does anyone else want to jump in?

Okay, okay.

Um the next question.

So the next question I have is around industrial development, right?

So I uh my neighborhood just is is engaged currently my neighborhood, Hazelwood, which I represent is engaged in a you know, in in sort of fighting uh uh a weight a proposed waste transfer station right up next to where people live.

And we do have in Pittsburgh, you know, we used to be an industrial city, uh, and we have communities that are right up against these old industrial areas.

And that is, of course, they tend to be, well, they are low-income communities, uh, folks that don't have a lot of so when we talk uh when we talk about industrial development, things are coming.

The one big thing that comes to mind for me are data centers.

And so uh, Mr.

Kelly, my question to you is we know that and data centers, by the way, are the hot conversation at the SP at the Southwestern PA Commission, right?

All around like everyone's hot to trough for data centers.

But we know that data centers are noisy.

They do not provide long-term jobs, right?

And they um uh they raise your utility bills, right?

So they raise local so there's enormous problems with data centers.

But um, and this is my question for you, Mr.

Kelly, just you know, from the building trades perspective, from the the labor perspective.

Yes, so when when you have a project and a data center or otherwise, or a zoning bill before you that will affect the ability to build these types of large industrial scale um um projects.

How do you weigh the kind of short-term jobs-based benefits that would be, you know what I mean?

That's sort of the trades or whatever would support versus the clear, very long-term community impacts that large-scale developments like this can have.

Two-thing question, if I could.

Um as far as the data center, you know, we we clearly are following the vision uh of our governor that data centers need to start to take a self-sufficient approach.

No doubt.

They need to power themselves, whether it's through cogen, whether it's you, that's that is a talk of the future, no doubt.

We're seeing it now.

Five years ago it was a different argument.

Now what we're seeing is that that needs to be.

We have to be able, as a planning commission, to promote things as far as infrastructure prior.

That has to be whether it is through federal dollars.

We have to make those areas that went to nothing to become more attractive.

And as far as being attractive, we have to provide for the utilities we were seeing down.

We thought about Hazelwood Green, you know, not too long ago during our during our time.

You know, that's remember that was always one of my pitches is that I learned how to ride my bike across from that.

That's that's little people's play area.

That was my home.

My family work there.

Um but with that being said, is that as hard as that can be for people to realize that there is the ability to grow in areas like that.

You know, it may be just in our area, but we look all down to Mon Valley.

As a planning commission, we do have to have the foresight to promote funding to come in for new sewers, for roads, to make it more appetizer for people to grow, just like we did in Hazelwood.

Um I would look at that.

I I know what you're going through down in Hazelwood with the industrial site.

Is that where the waste management end on there?

Um that becomes a public health issue, which is a whole different topic as well.

Anyone else?

No.

Okay.

Um, so uh my next question is around RCOs.

Um RCOs uh it has been a controversial program, right?

Uh we have so you know, um in some communities it's very successful.

In other communities you have multiple RCOs.

Um in some communities you have RCO, you have folks who feel like their RCO does not represent them.

That is often the case uh with with uh CDCs.

Um while CDCs and RCOs are doing the good work of often, right, uh developing the community and often maintain, or certainly in in Hazelwood of maintaining affordable housing, right, existing housing and keeping it affordable or fixing up blight, there is also this concern oftentimes in the community of like buying up all the property, you know what I mean?

Like there's no chance, like there's no chance for the for the folks who live there.

Um or that like the RCO or the CDC is like pushing out smaller projects, not not not letting people sort of do their smaller thing.

Uh what can city planning do to bridge this divide and you know, to ensure that there's opportunity for individual community members without leaving those emerging markets, I would call them emerging markets, like open to just speculators who are going to come in.

So I generally uh the registered community organization in concept, I think is a great thing.

But as you've already uh mentioned, it it could it could be the thing that parts the Red Sea, right?

I mean, sometimes there are multiple within a community.

Uh sometimes they don't always have the exact same vision, and it makes it um very difficult.

I can speak from experience in Manchester Chateau, we have seven organizations, seven nonprofits uh that have collectively come together to be the RCO, and they range from you know a community development corporation, um a fraternity foundation to uh an organization that deals with social determinants of health all the way down to a charter school.

So I I think that it is very important to see the the foundation of the RCO before you can say whether it's a good RCO or not.

It's not like the Tootsie Pop you get one I get one he gets one she gets one.

I think that if we're going to uh foster collaborative nature and particularly for the health of a community we've got to be very careful to to be able to have one voice not one opinion we can have multiple opinions uh diversified opinions but but we have to kind of move a community forward um with one voice neighborhood plans are very important I think that neighborhoods that have neighborhood plans and that have RCOs have been a little bit more um successful at least from what I've seen I try to stay out of other neighborhoods business same way I'd like other neighborhoods do not necessarily come I mean because they're different right they don't all do the same thing they're not all some are looking for housing some are looking to to create economic um activity in districts and and all of the I think it's a loaded question and what's that up microphone oh okay okay um you know I I I think it's a a loaded question but in concept I think that having an entity that can really represent where a community is and where a community wants to go is great.

But not if it's all over the place and not if there are 10 of them and 10 of them at are at war and then it leaves the job for council I think um councilman Lavelle can attest to this that it leaves the job for counsel feeling like twister who's on red who's on yellow whose word do I believe and it's not that anybody's a liar it's right there's there's three sides to a story there's you know A's side B side and then there's the truth that's in between because you're not emotionally attached to it.

So I I think that you have to look at the makeup of the RCO and the intent of the RCO and really what what guardrails are put on uh those particular RCOs how Planning Commission needs to look at an RCO is very much so like it would any other resident within the city of Pittsburgh as it relates to their community which is your voice matters give your testimony let's hear um what's beneath and what's within that testimony and take it for very specifically that but weighting that based on the criteria and policy that we have to work within okay thanks anyone else I can speak from experience I can speak from experience in just from my my I guess my day job working through the university we have three different RCOs that impact Carnegie Mellon two from Oakland and one from Squirrel Hill and I think where my experience has come down is where we the benefit of that is because we have three different ones all of our RCO interaction at the university is organized and managed through the planning department.

And I think that makes a significant difference in that because what that means then is that we're having professional planners kind of representing setting the meetings doing things like that.

I think that could be a an instructive model without committing too much of staff's time but um but I think it's an instructive model where you have that layer of the professional planner that's working as the kind of conduit between the the the neighborhood group the RCO and the maybe the non-RCOs to get to the where the planning commission comments come into effect.

I think what's most important in dealing with RCOs as with anything in approval processes is creating a tray a kind of a completely visible and regularized process.

I think where we run into problems with RCOs is where we say okay we need to do this and then they drag their feet on getting a meeting set up which means that the public hearing which has can't happen for 30 days until after the RCO meeting now all of a sudden is getting pushed out and it can be used as means when it's used as a means of obstructionism I think that that that's problematic in regards to it undermines the ability of the RCO to but the rest of the RCOs to have legitimate voice.

But it also then but then it also challenges the process and nothing complicates for for like I said running permits, 700 permits running from the university over the last five years nothing makes us more frustrated is when we have process that we don't anticipate that comes into play.

I think regularized process that we know and that we can expect, I'm fine with that.

It's when the things that come into effect that are kind of from left field.

Again, the no surprises for my dad.

It's like the no surprises rule is where we're trying to look and I think ultimately that will help development in the city in general is to create a regularized, understood and transparent pathway forward for projects.

But I think I'm gonna add one more thing here.

I think where RCOs were birthed was that uh there was a a desire to make sure that community voices had the opportunity to be heard.

And I some of that gets convoluted with you know um maybe different factions within communities not necessarily seeing things the same way.

Uh but again, I'll go back to plans, neighborhood plans are very, very important because typically everybody comes out, not on every single issue, but on the pillars, you find that um people that care about development come out on the development.

People that care about transportation come out on the transportation.

And when the community is then asked to look at this codified document that says here's where we are on these issues.

I either like it or I don't before this thing is adopted.

Um and am I willing to live with this, you know, even though some of these issues are or are not important.

I think that should be the sort of North Star or or the guiding force for a community.

That also signals to to developers and other folks on the outside that these are the rules of engagement to play in our neighborhood.

Lawrenceville did that fabulously, right?

They had Lawrenceville United and the CDCs and the plans were just very robust and um extremely intentional, and I don't want to say scrap the RCO and and just go with a neighborhood plan, although that wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea.

Uh but what's that?

That's what doesn't matter.

And and neither did we.

Right.

I'm sorry.

And and actually neither did uh you know Manchester Chateau for a very long time because we we worked for 24 months on a plan that everybody got to be engaged in, and it was door to door, and it was meeting after meeting, and it was uh I mean, you know, we didn't leave a stone unturned.

And you know, maybe today if somebody moved into the neighborhood after the adoption of 2019 and they moved in the neighborhood in 2022 and say, hey, well, you know, I I didn't give that input in the plan, maybe you're right, they they they weren't involved in it, but are there things that they can live with?

And then that also allows a community development corporation or the city or our our our uh you know councilman to be able to drive um activity to and through the neighborhood based on the desires of the community.

And you can always revert back to uh, well, I don't know what's going on, but yes, you do, because you you you made that decision, and this book says that you did, right?

And and that's how we move activity forward.

Well, that is a perfect segue to my next question, which I'm gonna have ask everybody to answer.

We'll just go down the line.

Um Pittsburgh is an outlier in that it does not have a comprehensive plan.

Uh we are in the midst of a comprehensive planning process that has certainly had its issues at council.

We have had some issues uh including myself.

Uh however there has been some very positive work done, uh especially in the kinds of questions that this comp plan has explored.

So there have been these really great kind of citywide meetings.

I've been to these meetings.

Uh my my in my opinion, right, my criticism of the the comp plan work is that it has not engaged enough of the people, right?

That that I would have liked to have seen more engagement.

So and maybe I'm coming from uh representing Hazelwood, which is one of the few neighborhoods with a neighborhood plan, right?

So this like deep dive, like engagement with you know, 1,500 people across a very small community, a relatively small community.

And that was what I was hoping to see in this comp plan process, and I hope what we will see going forward.

Um but at any rate, so getting getting back to the question.

The question is, and we'll go down the line is have you been involved in the comprehensive planning process?

Did you attend any of these large citywide meetings?

If you didn't, why not?

And um, and then if you know, if we once this plan is completed, if we are to pass this plan, um, are you committed to using it as a a as the tool or the guide that it is meant to be in your decision making process on the planning commission?

So I'll just let you go down the down the line.

Thank you for your question.

Um I did not participate in the planning process.

Um I I can tell you from my perspective, I'm committed to to learning more about it, to being more engaged, certainly in this position.

I think that will be a key part uh of the role.

And it's and it's one of the other tools that we've talked about, right?

Like it is something that uh I would like to understand the history of.

Like why has the city not had a plan uh plan in the in the past?

Why is it that the city decided at this point in time that we're going to put that plan in place?

Uh, do a deep dive with all of you to better understand what is the history, what is the reason of why today that is important to each of the members of council, uh, and then be able to take that information and help inform the decisions that council that the commission will be do will be making going forward.

Um thank you for your question.

Um I guess to answer the first part, um I I do believe in the importance of um this the city's comprehensive plan and you know we'll will be a part of um you know if confirmed, you know, seeing it through if that's the um the avenue that council decides.

Um I I did not I was not I've not been a part of um the comprehensive plan to date.

Um and I think like likewise um uh council person um I've been disappointed by um the lack of engagement by some some important parties um as well.

Yeah, um I think that having a comprehensive plan is extremely important for our city.

Um I think I share a lot of the concerns with many of the members at the table about some of the problems with the process, whether it be the cost or you know, like you were saying, the lack of engagement.

Um but you know, I think ultimately my hope is that we get from that process something that can help guide a lot of these, you know, especially from my perspective, the land use changes that I think we need to make it easier to build housing throughout the city.

Um I haven't I don't think I've been to any of the in-person meetings, by the way, but I have been to or have um done some of the asynchronous engagement.

Okay, um, I have not I've not been to any as far as why I haven't um I'll be honest with you.

I it's I'm just getting up to speed and getting done.

Um but I feel I feel very comfortable with knowing who the with the neighbors going to for concerns.

So I did not have an opportunity to participate in the engagement process.

I wasn't aware of some of the opportunities to participate.

Um you know, if the decision is to adopt the plan as is, I'm not sure what's in the plan or what what it's contemplated within it, I would want to see a robust economic and equitable economic development strategy within that plan to serve as a North Star for us.

So I would follow council's lead if you adopt the plan and you say this is the trajectory of the city and that becomes codified, then I feel a responsibility to help guide and move the city in the direction that those who are elected by the people see fit see fit to move.

So I have engaged.

Uh I also feel that uh a plan is very important.

You know, I was one of three, our neighborhood, my neighborhood, Manchester Chateau, uh, was one of the first three pilot communities that had been chosen for a comprehensive plan.

So it was Manchester Chateau, uh Hazelwood and Homewood, actually, that were chosen.

And our neighborhood comprehensive plan was the first to be adopted by uh the planning commission in the fall of 2019.

I will say uh that I have uh voiced this repeatedly, that I feel that we really need to be looking at zoning and allow zoning to really inform what we're doing from a planning perspective.

I feel that there is um some overlap, some connection, but if we uh the example that I gave earlier, you know, our river's edge, if it had continued to be urban industrial mixed use development like the Esplanade would not be coming to the neighborhood.

Uh in 2015, we looked at, you know, miles of riverfront uh throughout the city of Pittsburgh, and that's what allowed development to come.

But zoning had to change to allow that.

One of the really special and neat things about the RIV is that if neighborhoods did not have an RCO or a CDC, the RIV from a legislative perspective wiped out the need for a community benefits agreement, right?

We didn't have to things that would typically be within a community benefits agreement would be things like job creation, green space, uh, you know mandated, you know, how many units of affordable housing.

If zoning informs how we move planning and takes sort of the um fight away from the community needing to stand tall and fight for what they feel is equitable and is just and also at the same time being very sustainable, uh I I think that we we need to be mindful of that.

Um there have been some changes as it relates to the citywide comp plan, and if there is a comp plan because I'm such a fan, uh, or when there is a comp plan, I should say, absolutely I would be more than happy to support it.

I think that some of the listening sessions, some of the opportunities to bring people forward for engagement, uh, could potentially be around um not necessarily messaging or branding in terms of making people aware, but really hitting sweet spots in terms of what pillar within the comp plan matters to you.

If citywide you really care about transportation, you're gonna show up specifically for transportation.

If in the city and in your neighborhood more specifically, you are more concerned with development and affordable housing, then you're going to show up for those.

So I I I think that there could be opportunities to break apart uh the the portions of the plan to get a little more investment so that people understand that I'm not here for five hours and I'm gonna talk about um a variety of things.

I'm gonna talk about the thing that that is most attached to me in terms of what I care about.

Is it parking?

Is it you know, again, uh something of that nature, then I then I think you might get a bigger showing and depending on which community.

And again, an all-out comp plan for the city, it's almost like I Z.

You support it, you don't, how you support it.

I think that you have to be mindful of the neighborhoods and and the neighborhood needs to be.

I give a lot of credit to the staff for trying or taking on a comp plan.

In the 30 years that I've been in Pittsburgh, that's been attempted three times and it's never been successful.

It's it's a hard thing to take on.

It is.

Um because there are so many various different types of neighborhoods, types of concerns, things throughout a comp plan is is a big effort and a big uh a big task to take on.

And trying to, and there is no one size fits all for this city of Pittsburgh.

That's one of the things that's magical about this city, but it also makes it hard to be a company.

That being said, I mean I'm a planner, my degree was in planning.

I love a good plan, right?

That being said, I think a good and I was we I I was involved early on in the comp planning process, representatives from university were embedded in it.

I do think that it's a hard thing to take on.

And I think that there's no perfect way to do it.

I do think so I give a lot of credit to doing it.

I think that if we can manage to pull off the trick uh uh as a city of at least the beginning of a comp plan or at least the beginning of land use control, I think is more important.

I think where I get a little nervous about this idea of a comp plan that is a one-size plan fits everything, you're gonna get bogged down in transportation and then land use will suffer.

Or you're gonna focus on business development and then transportation will suffer.

If we I feel like if if I mean if I ran the zoo, I think an idea would be to say, you know, do we focus on one thing first?

Land use control, for example, just because that's what this body will do uh as land use control.

We don't have we don't have a lot of impact in regards to transportation and things like that as a planning commission, but we do own land use control, and that is really what we are here to do.

I mean, uh that would be a kind of a strong way to start the beginning of a comp plan is to come up with a s not a citywide land use policy, but a land use plan that works throughout the city in different ways.

I think that that's a hard thing.

And I think that would also affect I'm gonna go real weedy on some of the zoning stuff here that in talking with staff and working with them all for the really talented smart people for all these years.

We have a zoning code that is has one foot back in the 1950s and one foot set right now and one foot trying to do in the future.

And right now it's not because it's trying to do three or four different things, it's not doing anything particularly really well.

And I think that that we in order for us to be able to go to move forward on what is the best way to mandate land land use control and to proactively and policy-wise drive land use control, I think we need to address that head on.

Okay, thanks.

Um moving on.

So my my next question is around um and Dr.

Walker, I'll start with you on this one, but um and again, anybody chime in, is around um segregation in the city of Pittsburgh, right?

We are uh an incredibly segregated city.

Um taxpayers in Pittsburgh have put tens of millions of dollars uh each year into affordable housing, just from our city taxpayers, and that's obviously even more if you bring in your state and your federal taxes.

Um, you know, um as the clo crow flies like Glen Hazel to Squirrel Hill is but you know about one one and a half miles, you know, just as the crow flies.

Yet the difference in amenities between the two neighborhoods is stark.

Um just one so for the kids, and and by the way, all the kids in both those communities go to the same high school.

And soon we'll probably go to the same middle school if this if the the PPS um plan goes forward.

Um so in Glen Hazel, there is one bus in the morning that leaves at 6.50 in the morning and gets those kids to school 40 minutes early, right?

From Glen Hazel.

PRT.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um we know how hard it is to establish amenities in in sort of emerging community, right?

There's just not the population.

We're talking about grocery stores, uh, retail um, et cetera.

And um yet this is where in communities like this is where the lion's share of our of our subsidized government subsidized affordable housing goes, right?

Because it's cheaper to build there.

Oftentimes the zoning is conducive, depending on on where we're talking about.

Um even in one of our most successful affordable housing developments, I would say was would be like Laramer, right?

And is there still even in that is a very successful, you know, lots of affordable housing around that area, um, you know, adjacent, of course, to East Liberty, but there's still what I call I call the target wall, right?

Like it is a wall that is the target from one community, right to the other, completely segregated.

Um and then way down the the road, right?

You get all the chic restaurants and the right market rate housing and all of that.

Um so council has tried to desegregate our housing sum.

Um I believe not not in my time in council, but I believe in 2019, council voted to end uh source of income discrimination, which would require landlords to just take, you know, if you had a voucher, they could not discriminate against you as that was if that was your source of income.

I believe that passed unanimously.

There's some members here who, you know, at the time uh we were sued by the apartment association of Metropolitan Pittsburgh, and they won, right?

So this is this is the real estate community, the development community fighting tooth and nail to keep low-income people, um, you know, people of different ethnic backgrounds ultimately out of market rate housing, market rate developments.

Um as we look to build more housing, how can we ensure that we're not exacerbating segregation?

Uh A, by either pushing low-income residents out of the places that they live, like we did, you know, with Penn Plaza, whatever in historic East Liberty, uh, and then B that we're not just building exclusively market rate housing in the neighborhoods with all the amenities.

So we just have you know, the nice neighborhoods are just if you're rich and you can afford two, three thousand dollars a month, that's where you get to live, and if you can't, you live out far away in Glen Hazel or in the West End or you know what I mean, just far out on the outskirts of the city.

So um I just you know, there's one just recently there's this beautiful 400 unit building that just passed through planning commission in the strip.

I think it was a Ryan and Divino, gorgeous project.

Over 400 units, it's in the strip, not a single affordable unit in the entire project.

And um so uh Dr.

Walker, I'll let you let you let you tackle that one.

Okay.

I wanted to know the question.

I'm sorry, I saw the sort of your what can the planning commission do to keep from keep this sort of you know, history of segregation from just staying the same, getting worse.

And and I would say even worse, because this is what we're starting to see is lower income people, black and brown people simply being pushed out of the city altogether.

Yeah.

Um, I will say, as a black person who lives in the city of Pittsburgh, and I have to have two choices I can make.

If I want to live in a black community, I am forced to also live in a poor community.

If I want to live in a an amenity rich community, I sacrifice the ability to live in a place that feels culturally like home to me.

And that is by design.

Um that is that is by design.

I live in the Hill District, and I think that there are people who want and desire to live in the Hill District, but the way that we talk about the Hill District is as though it is hallowed land that is only that solely belongs to people who have always been there and no newcomers are welcome, but the neighborhood is dying and will continue to die if we do not create an opportunity for new people to come.

Um so I think part of what we need to do is stop treating a lot of our neighborhoods like they're hallowed ground, like they're they're places that need development and need investment.

And our position should be we should be I should be able to live anywhere that I want to live in the city of Pittsburgh and know that I'll have black neighbors and white neighbors and elderly neighbors and young neighbors, but that is not the way that we are designing the city.

And it's not all because developers are bad and don't want to create any affordable housing, and it's also because we have made the nonprofit entities solely responsible for developing affordable housing, and we've asked them to do it without predevelopment funding, we've asked them to do it without a fully functioning land bank, we've asked them to do it in a climate where it's difficult to get a permit and where a private developer can wait the six months.

A nonprofit development entity that cares deeply about affordable housing and investing in neighborhoods in a way that are racially and income inclusive, we've not created the city environment in which that can happen.

And so I think sometimes we get to feeling like we're doing good because we talk the way that we should talk and we contextualize the way that we should.

But when we when we look at the tools that we are responsible for making work better, we spend very little time on that and a whole lot of time of I think making boogeyman out of people who could be co-opted to help.

A few things that I'd like to see.

Um, our LITEC program, when we go to the state and we prioritize a LITEC project, I'd love to see it be projects that have an anti-displacement mechanism to them.

We have naturally occurring affordable housing in places all over the city that don't have a shot at getting a lie tech, right?

They don't have a shot at getting federal home loan bank.

We're not using the new markets tax credit tool the way that we should be using it.

I think we need to think more broadly and more expansively and give people more choice and dissolve some of these divisible lines.

I'm a black person, I I I live in a black community, I want to continue to live in a place where my mom is there, my cousins are there, all of my family is there.

I also want people to feel like the Hill District is a place that a young professional might want to move.

And by the way, there's housing available there.

We've been talking about affordable housing, we've been talking about market rate housing.

Our real crisis is middle missing middle housing, it's workforce housing.

People who can't access a voucher who are not going to be eligible for one of the inclusionary zoning units.

There's a whole middle section that we've completely ignored.

There, it's completely silent.

And so if we want to do something about segregation, the way you do something about that is you give people better places that are built and developed that they can choose to live, and we ensure that they have the wages to in order to make those choices.

So it's not an arbitrary, what can city planning do?

I think there's a lot that we can do to because we can come up with land use strategies, but a lot of the tools that we have at our disposal to make the change, we ignore them, we don't talk about them, and we only talk about market, we only talk about the lower end of the spectrum, and we're not talking about the middle, which is where I think the true opportunity is because if you create new housing where people at the higher end of the market have more choice, that's going to naturally make more affordable housing available because people are going to vacate units that are a bit older, and the market will adapt and respond to that.

Last thing that I'll note is where we decide to invest and build.

Um we've left neighborhoods like Larmer, Homewood, parts of Beachview, Brookline, South.

We've left a lot of those neighborhoods on the table as places that can't be developed because of community voice and community input, because we are doing everything.

Most of what we do is on a fear-based impetus.

My very this is my last note.

When we talk about the development and what's happened in the East End, and we talk about East Liberty as being gentrified, that scares the crap out of other neighborhoods that feel like black people could or immigrants could potentially be pushed out.

I think we've got to do a better job about talking about the success and wins of interventions where the choice neighborhood has happened and unwind a lot of the political rhetoric that I think contextualized those neighborhoods as not being successful.

My daughter, we took my daughter when she was nine years old to East Liberty.

We were at the corner of Highland and Center.

She's holding my hand on one and my husband's hand on the other, and she says, Mommy and Daddy, did we leave Pittsburgh?

Because she lives in a neighborhood without a grocery store, without a functioning school, without a restaurant.

We go a mile and a half east, and she thinks she's left the city of Pittsburgh.

That's a travesty, and I think there's a lot that we can do to change that.

And as a commissioner, I'm looking for every opportunity to do it.

Yeah, I would agree that we absolutely need to look for opportunities to be able to change that.

For me, um I started at Manchester Citizens Corp January 10th of 2012.

I left a job where I took a $30,000 pay cut because as an African American woman, I would, for the first time in my life, and probably only time in my life be able to work for an African American organization in a majority minority community.

And we were quite a few years the first murder in the city of every year.

And the community was satisfied with being saturated, more than affordable, you know, saturated 30 to 50 percent AMI.

And when we began to look at diversifying the community from a perspective of having market rate, um affordable, looking at housing typology, I think that a community has to be able to build and demand and going back again to uh land use and zoning and having neighborhood planners and community organizations, whether it be the RCO or be the CDC, that can say we want to be a community of color and a community of color that's of choice.

Manchester Chateau at one time was Allegheny City.

It was decimated by a highway that that took people from the outer ring suburban neighborhoods into the city.

And it didn't matter if we were getting polluted by literally 10 lanes of highway, um, you know, now up and coming double deckers from you know the the uh rail line, and yes, you've gotta be willing to be front and center and fight for uh you know everything that it is that you can get, whether it's the land use piece, uh housing diversity, making sure that you're bringing market rate uh affordable, middle market, you know, housing in and making it a neighborhood of not just choice for people of color, because we only have a certain percentage of population here in the county, in the city, sometimes you're interchanging the same percentage of people of color uh going back and forth with both.

But we've got to be a city that's bringing in new people as well, because the more people we bring in from the outside, the more opportunity we're going to have to diversify neighborhoods in every way.

I apologize, Tree.

I was always but I'm my phone is on for anybody.

You know that.

I'm sorry she's not very I have to go pick her up.

She's causing a little ruckus, so I apologize, but my phone is always is always on.

You know that I'm sorry.

Can't leave a baby out there.

I'm sorry.

No, she's she's 11, but she's she's all wild.

I look forward to working on the city.

Absolutely.

Yes.

Thank you.

Sorry about that.

Um, thank you for those answers.

And I think too, it's important to um to remember that this situation is also is impacting other neighborhoods as well, right?

I have families in Greenfield who generations they've been in Greenfield, white families, right?

Generations in Greenfield.

This is the first generation.

You know, like you you you walk down the street with sort of the older folks and like, oh, my brother lived there, my mother lived there, the it's the first generation where their kids cannot afford to live in Pittsburgh.

And they and you know, they live in Munhall, they live in West Mifflin and whatnot.

So you know, it it is an impacting everyone.

So okay, and does anyone else want to chime in?

Is this water?

Um yeah, I would kind of like let's like to answer that question, but also you know, understand um kind of who I who I am in the opportunities that were granted to me growing up in Squirrel Hill.

Um, I think the really the truth is is that Pittsburgh, like you know, cities across the country.

Um, you know, I'm sorry.

Um Pit Pittsburgh really like all cities, you know, across across the country have suffered from um racist zoning and infrastructure policies now now for um you know multiple generations.

And while it really really it's no one's you know fault at this table, it is our um you know duty you know to rectify the the mistakes of uh thank you um you know to to rectify you know the mistakes of the past.

Um council person warwick, you know, I I strongly agree with you.

I I look at the redevelopment that has happened in Laramore as a huge success in the city of Pittsburgh uh over the past 20 years.

And and that success really was you know the result of you know many partnerships, including you know the city with HUD, um the URA, as well as a major developer uh development firm out of St.

Louis.

Um I think you know, order, you know, there's an extremely complex problem.

I think you know uh way ways that we can help help rectify the issues that you you know rightly brought up is in in incentivizing you know density um you know across the city and investment, um but also you know how can we you know make changes to this you know some of the destructive infrastructure that have decimated um uh different neighborhoods across the region.

Great, thank you.

Um for my next question, and you know, Mr.

Vad Sissel um is around community engagement and whose voice matters.

Um, obviously I I have about 15 emails here from a number from my constituents, but you know, they're from individuals from RCOs, from CDCs, from racial justice organizations, from housing justice organizations, from you know, folks who work in the nonprofit um affordable housing development sector um asking us not to approve your nomination.

Um the reason the the reasons that are cited are are are various, right?

Some are policy-based, but some are also just personal.

Um, with regard to sort of comments that have been made on online.

Um housing Pittsburgh, you know, is the chapter of a national organization called Yimbi Action, right?

And while I understand that you are not paid, um, you know, Yimbi Action is heavily funded by developers and tech industry executives and corporations like Airbnb and others.

And um and several of your members uh have you know several of the of the leadership in YMB Action have ties to the real estate industry.

Um you sit on the board of your local RCO and um and you organize residents to come out and to testify at community meetings and in front of city council.

Um and I have been quite hard on your group, right?

I've been you know, oh uh uh in the past here at the table.

Um I know that uh some uh folks have implied that that it's because we don't agree.

But actually the reality is that on 95% probably of the policy issues, we do agree, right?

We agree, we agree, I think, on the need to rezone.

We agree on the fact that you know, not being able to build a duplex or a four-plex in a in a you know in a regular residential area doesn't make sense.

Uh I think we agree about parking, right, and the and the need to reduce parking minimums.

I think we agree about lot size.

So um but what we don't agree about, I think is is the voice of the community.

And um so you know and some of these tweets are pretty um I recognize that social media is not you know, is it people are not the always the same person on social media that they are in real life, but but some of some of these tweets are concerning.

Um that the RCO system is very bad, in my opinion, it turns community nonprofits into pseudo-governmental bodies, except we don't get to elect their leaders.

I think we have an elected council for a reason.

We elect them to be the voice of our communities, not unelected RCOs.

Um Pittsburgh RCO dam system is a monumental waste of time and resources perpetuated by our policymakers upon our citizens.

Please just pass good policies and stop with the silly discretionary approvals for anything and everything.

This was around congestion pricing in New York City, which I agree with, by the way.

I I am a supporter of congestion pricing, or at least some kind of toll for folks coming in.

But Governor Hochel's decision to cancel congestion pricing is such a shining example of why, quote, community engagement is such utter bullshit.

It's a tool that is weaponized by powerful NIMBEs to make society worse, if they'll even be mildly inconvenienced, reject NIMBYism in all its forms.

And while I get this idea that a handful of people should not make decisions, right?

Should not direct decisions.

I think if we talk about the Fine View, you know, there were like some some row houses and they were touching, and there was like this handful of folks who were objecting to it for you know, there's a handful of people who came out and objected.

But when you have an 11-hour city planning commission hearing, and the people coming out are the vast majority are working class people, lower income people, people of color who are spending their entire day to advocate whether it's for an inclusionary zoning policy, whether it's against whether it's for a uh a rezoning policy that'll protect their neighborhood from you know industrial projects, whether it's about um uh a development next to a beloved park, right, in the city.

Um that was more a zoning board issue, but you know, where you just had hundreds of people from around and this that's why I have I got so many, because that was in my district.

Um whether it's people in Banksville who are incredibly worried about you know midway housing coming and being in their neighborhoods, um, whose voice matters.

And and that's what worries me is that is this, you know, this sort of idea that like development at all costs, um, you know, whatever, this is nonsense, people don't know what's good for them.

And um I'm worried about that on the planning commission because there is there's next perhaps second to city council, there is planning commission is a place where you need to be there to listen and empathize you are here for the residents of the city.

You are here to make sure that the growth and the the the way that we um move as as a city works both in terms of growth, but also for the people who are living here today, because there's no point in all this growth and unless it's just to make money.

I get that.

There's definitely there's definitely you know the need to make money, but there's no point in all this growth and development if it cuts out or excludes or ignores uh the people who live here today.

Um I guess you know, when it comes, we've talked a lot about collaboration and respect.

Um can you tell me, is there a difference between two or three neighbors, you know, upset about losing maybe the sunlight in their backyard versus an entire community coming out to rally for or against a project for you, given given your sort of commentary on community engagement.

Um how how will that impact your decision making on the planning commission?

Yeah, well, so I I guess I'll start by saying that uh, you know, I'm sure I've said some in artful things before on social media, uh, and I've actually uh taken a lot of advice from even people like you and your staff.

Uh I've been on a journey as an advocate, you know, trying to figure out the best way to use my voice.

And I I've tried to be better about that, and I I think I actually have uh, you know, especially over the last couple of years.

I you know, I think I learned a lot, obviously, during some of the things that you mentioned.

Um that being said, um, you know, for my part, and I've seen this as a board member of our local RCO, uh, that I think community engagement processes that we do are not always representative of the community.

You know, they they don't include people who can't attend meetings at certain periods of time.

Um, I I think that often means that people of lower income, people who can't afford to take a day off work to go to a community meeting, people who can't afford to, you know, leave their child care duties in the evening and can't attend a community meeting.

It's why I think you said at the table in a discussion about the comp plan that you were frustrated with the community engagement process because you feel like you're seeing all the same people at all the meetings.

And I think that's a lot of what we end up having with our community engagement processes.

We uh we set it up in such a way that the people who are able to attend are always able to attend or regularly able to attend, and we don't necessarily include the community as a whole.

Okay, I I I agree.

I appreciate that.

But so what about when they do attend?

What about when they come out and they take off work and they come down in vast numbers, whether it be to city council, whether it be to a zoning board meeting, whether it be to a planning commission meeting, these people that we're talking about, right?

And and they have to be organized, right?

Like people don't just magically come out, right?

Like for the for my my um the bill for the um rezoning of the Hazewood Riverfront, I had to literally go knock on people's doors and give them flyers and say, this is the date.

If you want if you care about this, you gotta come out.

And we got 50 or so people to come out, you know, 15 or so testified.

So that's what I'm asking you.

What about when they do come out?

I mean, I think that that is a data point that as a commission we should be taking into account when making decisions.

A data point, but not I mean, uh so what do you mean by a data point?

I I I mean, I think what is the what is the threshold that you use as enough people coming out to speak at a meeting.

I mean, I like I think you're you're introducing a lot of potential bias into that.

I think you know, as commissioners, we need to use our judgment and we need to try to remove bias from the equation and look at every case, you know, as it comes to us and try to make make decisions about the trade-offs that occur with any sort of development project.

So if people come out and testify for 11 hours, enough people to come for 11.

I know people that came to that meeting that went home, put their kids to bed, and came back.

That's how important that policy was to them that that there be affordable housing in every new development in the city.

Do you have any thought about that?

I mean, I you know, I think I've provided my opinion on that.

I think that it it's a data point that needs to be taken into account by the commission, you know, when trying to understand um, you know, any particular development or any particular piece of legislation.

Okay.

Well, um I I I will I was gonna I was gonna be cheeky and uh have everyone go down the line and answer whether or not they are a planning professional or a neighborhood busybody, but I'm not gonna do that because it's late.

Um I'll I'll leave it at that.

We'll pass it to Councilwoman Gross.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Um I I do appreciate everybody sitting through this very long meeting.

I think we I just as a personal opinion to the council president, I don't think I've ever seen as many people presented as a panel to be interviewed, and I'm not sure it was a good idea.

Um I have I think a lot of times um we're able to dig a little bit more deeply into asking the candidates kind of what they bring to the role.

And you know, we're doing a kind of survey of topics here, so I mean, I don't need to make you repeat those or anything, but it's gonna be a little like there's not time or energy left amongst the candidates, let alone the public who may be watching, or um the council members.

But I may follow up with each of you.

Um if that's if you're admitable to that.

Um I do I'm just I've been trying to ask myself kind of like what slightly differently um uh you know could add, I think, to the conversation that I can ask.

And there's there's two things.

Um one of which is that I think it was important that many of the conversations and the answers incorporated the challenges of both balancing affordability and development and how they might intersect differently for some than others.

We've also had this kind of uh, I don't know, I'm now thinking of like a vertical access of like more community engagement or more top-down planning and that tension, right?

These are these are tensions.

Um but I I I want I think it's illustrative for me, and I've said this before, and some of you may have heard me say this again because I'm gonna I'm gonna read some points from a speech that I presented in 2019 in January 2019.

That's already seven years ago to states representatives who are Democrats from across the state.

It was the the policy committee for the Democratic State Legislatures.

Um there were people from across the state who were here, and the topic was neighborhood development and change.

And so again, as a reminder, my district now starts at 33rd Street.

It used to start at 11th Street, which is right where the convention center ends.

And so I had the entirety of the strip district for nearly 10 years, and now I represent from the that's actually the neighborhood line for Lawrenceville, so the neighborhood line, um, and then all the way up the Alligating River to about Washington Boulevard.

So I have Lawrenceville, again, I represented the strip for a long time, but no longer Polish Hill, Bloomfield, Friendship, most of friendship.

Councilman uh Mosley and I split it.

And when you think about Penn Avenue, it's like I have the southern half of Penn Avenue, so I have Bloomfield and Friendship, and he's got the other side of the street, which is Garfield, so I kind of surround those parts of District 9, and then I continue over like Stan, half of Stanton Heights, all of Morningside, all of Highland Park.

So I still I have a very, very long border with District 9 in a lot of ways.

And I also go down the middle of Center Avenue, so I have a very long border with District 8.

So I always remind the public like Councilwoman Strasburger has Shady Side Hospital, but I have Helm and Cancer Center.

I've got all the way to the Pep Boys, like the Pet Boys is extra in my city council district.

So there's a lot of territory and there's a lot of development, right?

So we're talking uh much of the share of the LERDAs that have been distributed in the last 10, 15 years of have been in districts in my district while I represented it.

Um and so when I was thinking about this in 2019, again, already seven years ago, and thinking about how to describe to state legislators from across the state um kind of what is development in the city.

Um there were many other people on the panel who were presenting that a lot of the things that we touched on here.

We need population, we need investment, investment is difficult, we've had population loss, we've had blight, we've had disinvestment, uh, we've had racism, uh we have concentrated poverty, and and and these are issues that I rely certainly many of you have long expertise in using the tools that you know better than I do.

Um but it isn't the only problem facing the city, and I think to talk about these things as not just coexisting, but as part like a double-sided coin.

That so the that market extreme, which is the broken real estate market, right?

Um having learned and worked, you know, in 2000 with Aggie Bros and Rick Swartz on issues in Garfield and I worked on some um writing and some case study of uh a case statement for their organization, and so I learned a lot from them.

Um but that the other market extreme is also a broken market.

And that's why I don't agree with some people here that the market's going to save us, right?

And so hyperinvestment, displacement, gentrification, is also a problem to be solved by this table.

There's no one else who's supposed to fix this for us.

The responsibility is on our shoulders.

Um even then in the last five years, um, the investment in Lawrenceville and the Strip, I think had topped a billion and is closing in on two, it's surpassed two billion.

Um, that there's been thousands of apartments built.

Um there is a single apartment building, not in the strip, but in Polish Hill, very close to it, that has 500 units.

Um, unfortunately, before we passed the inclusion rezoning or expanded it to Polish Hill.

Right.

That there are many, many, again, a couple of thousand new class A offices that have been built between those two neighborhoods on the Allegheny River front, that there's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of jobs.

It's funny to look at an employee of Aurora because, for example, Uber had something like 500 people at one point trying to build the robot cars, which they no longer do.

They just don't do that anymore.

Um so it isn't just rentals that have jumped, jumped at the property values in just a few years' span, went in some of the census tracts from like a hundred thousand um to two hundred and fifty thousand, so more than doubled in a short amount of time in some of the census tracts.

In fact, some of the census tracts I saw tenfold, a thousand percent increase in property values in five years.

And so I'd like to remind this conversation.

You all and the public and and council members that we have new residents.

We have built units.

We have seen uh you know, attracted lots of you know newcomers, but at the same exact time, we pushed 10,000 poor and black people out.

So from the 2010 census to the 2020 census, the population barely moved, right?

We like decreased 2,000 people, but it churned.

And so we met nothing by just adding wealthy new people.

We have to do both.

It is our responsibility.

And um, so that was not framed as a question, but it has been a very long day.

And I've been listening for a long time, and I was watching on back in my office, knowing that I would be probably at the end of the questions.

I I had some business to do in my office, but I had the television on, so I saw the beginning, I saw your introductions and your uh and your backgrounds.

Um so, and that includes small businesses as well.

I can I can say like in the speech when I gave it in January of 2019, um, we had just lost Grosseria Taliana in Bloomfield, we had just lost Meads Hotel and on Butler Street and 43rd Street Gallery in Lawrenceville, and we continue to see small businesses lost because the rents are too high.

Right?

And if we just rely on those empty retail spaces and those new constructions that people, all of those developers try to get $50 per square foot that nobody in Pittsburgh can pay.

And so they just are now fighting over the scraps of national retail franchises, of which there are fewer and fewer every single day, right?

We've got a retail apocalypse.

Um so what are we supposed to do?

I mean, the the smaller floor plates in the historic main streets that we can control locally, I think are a way that we can still maintain walkable, attainable services on our transit lines and have the next to have people be able to access their dentist and their daycare and their their doctor and their drugstore.

I used to say drugstore, but now drugstores are practically out of business as well, right?

We've lost them everywhere.

So I'd like to maybe hear your thoughts.

That is a slightly it's slightly different from the conversation I think that we've been having up to this hour, giving you know, acknowledging that it's close to five, is that thoughts on balancing the broken market extremes, which is slightly different.

I agree that we need missing uh missing, I can't even talk, I don't know how you guys feel missing middle incomes in our housing stocks and our typologies.

We need to think about different types of housing.

We've heard about you know senior housing today, we've talked about deeply affordable housing, middle income housing, we've talked about different housing forms.

Um I'd like to know whether you think the market is the solution or something that we're here to manage.

I'll start with you, Mr.

Repi.

Lucky you.

Lucky me.

Um thinking from a planning perspective and what many of the issue is a lot of the things that we're talking about, you're specifically talking about have been talked around this table, are probably at the end of the day outside the purview of the planning commission, to be honest.

Um we have a very defined role, and in fact, I'm a little nervous when the planning commission starts getting asked to do things that it does not have the power to do.

Um and I think that's something that uh that we need to be careful of at the at the planning commission.

Our job is to review, interpret and enforce the zoning code.

Um I'm pretty sure since I wrote a lot of some of the zoning code that there's there's not a discussion about uh market rate in their code.

Just for the same reason that when I deal with the neighbor the city neighborhoods or the local neighbors around the university, there's nothing in the zoning code that speaks specifically to not being able to allow student housing in certain areas or such.

So I think we need to be careful about that.

I know it's a little bit of a pass answer, sorry.

Um that's what I get for being under the gun, but also that that's also um, you know, my role and my why I'm interested in being on the planning commission is to make the city better and to enforce the zoning code and to work the zoning code to make the city better.

I uh we are not going to be elected individuals, we're appointed, and I think that that's a lot of the frankly the duty of the council to be able to enact those kinds of things.

That's a bit of a pass.

I apologize for that.

So I don't want to throw the basketball back at you.

But here's what I'll say.

You know, today I I personally have learned a lot, right?

I mean, I've been here, but I've I've learned a lot, and I've learned a lot on the other side of the table for council today.

And I I think with that being said, you know, Mr.

Repi is right.

There are a lot of things that we're not necessarily going to be able to solve at that table in those particular chairs.

But I think that the expertise that planning staff and the variety of background that this planning commission brings to the table and the desire and the commitment on our behalf with council to have more dialogue so that you can be maybe more prepared to create legislation that makes sense, that makes an impact that then comes before us as a planning commission body that allows us to be able to work in cooperation with you to be able to achieve those specific desires, right?

Because I I I think that what you're speaking of is absolutely I mean it it wouldn't be it's genius, right?

I mean, if we could solve for that, you'd need us all the time, not just you know, twice a week and and looking at things sort of coming through.

But I but I think that I'll go back to what I had said was one of our biggest assets is our human capital and the ability that we have to be adaptable and resilient and problem solving.

And I think that we've got to roll up our sleeves, we've got to figure out what the trenches are, and we've got to figure out how to solve.

And I and again, commitment is very much so I'm committed, and I I think the rest of the people at this table would be committed to that as well.

Okay.

I am gonna I'm just gonna kind of try to refine my point even further, which is that it isn't only that both we have both truths in that in the city, right?

That we have both disinvested, bladed um parts of the city and then hyper invested, gentrifying parts of the city.

Yes.

But uh, if we allow concentrated wealth, are we not creating concentrated poverty and to that great point, very profound.

When I talk to people about Manchester Chateau, please do not hate me for this.

But I often say I love Lawrenceville, but one of the things that we're trying to be very, very careful is not to become Lawrenceville, right?

Because not everybody can be there.

And and so intentionally in our complan is a one-to-one, one market rate for every affordable for sale and rental.

And I I do believe that there is a lot there to unpack and that we can do, and it and I don't think that there's going to be uh an answer here at the moment that's gonna resolve it, but I do think it with commitment that we can look at what that looks like and and how to do better.

I mean, it it takes time, it's a crawl walk run, is what I I really think.

I'm gonna let I'm gonna let people pass if they want.

But we have we've had a lot of comments today, though, just for the record, right?

That there was that we do need to attract residents, that we have this problem with Blight, that the problem is we need to increase development, that we need to figure out a way to finance more development.

That so I just like to hear an acknowledgement that it that is not the only problem to be solved.

Acknowledged.

Absolutely.

Acknowledged.

Yeah.

I I I I think I'm suspecting what you are trying to understand because of how we've answered the questions.

I think you're trying to get to who are we ideologically and what do we truly believe and what lens are we bringing to our work as commissioners.

I think you're able to articulate that.

I think the public would love to hear it.

I think it's a fair question, and I I think we can separate that from what we understand our responsibility to be, the fact that we've got to we have to interpret codes, but we're human beings, right?

We are people, we are practitioners, and we bring a lens to this work.

And so I will tell you that I I think that the market is a part of the solution, it is not the solution, and unbridled and untempered, we are going to create a level of disparity that policy alone will not fix.

It is not the solution, and unbridled and untempered, we are going to create a level of disparity that policy alone will not fix.

That is a concern for me.

That is that that is a problem for me as a Pittsburger.

It's a problem for you know people who will come after me.

So I think that we have to be, and I we've spoken about responsible growth and what we need what we need to do.

I think the market will be okay.

The market will be fine.

It will either pick Pittsburgh or it will pick somewhere else.

It will pick what is in its best interest.

Our responsibility here, I think, is to use this as an opportunity to send market signals that are healthy, right?

That we are a place that is growing, that wants to grow.

We have vibrant people here who can contribute, and we want that to be understood.

Conversely, we've got places that have been neglected, and the market will not ever pay attention to those places without some level of guidance that Adam, you know, Adam Smith's hand is invisible.

Ours should not be.

We should be very clear about where we want and need to see investment in our city, and we should incentivize investment in those places because the market will find healthy places where it can make its money, meet its margins, get an internal rate of return that satisfies shareholders.

But I think we need to look at Pittsburgh as shareholders, the public shareholders.

And there are things that we can do between council, between city planning, between the URA, the housing authority.

Again, I get a little bit frustrated when I think it's fair to ask us about our lens, but I think that there are direct mechanisms that this body controls and can influence, and we don't understand their lens and what they're prepared to do.

We don't have a budget, right?

We have planning, we have tools, we have leverage.

There are actual entities in the city of Pittsburgh that are contributing to this disparity that you're talking about because they're not acting and they're not doing.

I will share my lens.

I have help told it to you.

I hide nothing.

But I also, as a Pittsburger, would love an opportunity to kind of hear from some of our other leaders about what their lens is and how do they intend to temper the market, which again will look out for its own interests.

Yes, it will.

Okay.

Yes, it will.

Thank you.

Mr.

Walker.

Mr.

Vatts, do you have anything to add?

Yeah, you know, I think that you correctly pointed out we have a broken housing market in Pittsburgh.

And in a lot of ways, that's because we've created a broken housing market.

We've made it too difficult to build housing, and we need to change that if we ever want to find affordability for everyone.

You know, I said it earlier in the hearing.

If you make it hard to build market rate housing, which we've done, it means it's also hard to build affordable housing.

At the same time, we need to be finding ways to get more funding for affordable housing in our city.

I mean, I think that you've correctly pointed out like the market cannot solve 30% AMI housing.

It's not possible.

That's where government has a strong role in finding ways to fund housing for people who have that extreme need uh and will not be able to afford market housing.

So, you know, I think those those would be the two prongs I would say fixing the broken zoning code, and then also finding ways to fund deeply affordable housing.

Um Justin, I've forgotten your last name.

Oh, I think I'm I'm in the There it is right in front of me.

Mr.

Hunt.

Sorry.

Thank you.

Um I mean, I think I'm in agree in agreement with um the those really that have gone before me here on on this question.

Um I I I feel that you know affordability, whether you know for our businesses or or housing is an extremely complex problem.

Um I I do see market rate housing as a piece of the solution, but certainly not um the sole solution here.

Um the other you know um pieces to the puzzle that that again are extremely complex, you know, uh supporting affordable housing, both for-profit and nonprofit um develop development firms, you know, or our cities institutions, you know, who house many of our um you know students, um as well as you know, government at all levels um in order to you know make especially uh affordable housing you know possible.

Thank you.

And I also don't have your last name and maybe the hardest one in Turiano.

And Triano, Mr.

Andriano.

Um I appreciate the question, and I and I'll echo you know many of the comments that I've made.

It's it's not the only problem.

Like there's no doubt about it.

And I think, you know, at the end of the day, the role that the commission has and the tools, I think we've talked quite a bit uh at the table today about the toolbox.

Like what are all the different tools that we have at the table and how do we leverage them to ensure uh that we can have a more inclusive and equitable community, and how do we use those tools to achieve the goals that you are that you have outlined, right?

Like what there are certainly going to be limits on on what this uh commission can do and the powers that this commission can have, the you know, and in its advisory nature.

Uh but at the same time, I think that that our goal and that our mission is to try to identify what are all the tools that are in that toolbox that we can go to leverage uh to be able to give Pittsburghers better experience and a better reality in their lives every single day.

Thank you.

I'm gonna switch gears radically, which again I acknowledge is not very fair at the end of the day, but I think it was um maybe uh several of you who brought up transportation, but I think only Darren Kelly said sewers.

Um and my other favorite thing to say here at the table, and so forgive me if you've heard it before, but if not, I I need to make sure you hear it, is that if we're going to build housing, then we need to make sure that the infrastructure under those streets is in place first.

That is also spectacularly uneven.

I've been saying this for a very, very long time, and since then PWSA started, you know, replacing every single person's lead water service line.

So we've made some progress because now they're replacing the actual water mains, right?

Like in parts of my district, those water mains were 120 years old.

Um they're supposed to be 70, right?

If people's gas is out in front of your house, or you know, in your neighborhood, those also were supposed to be replaced at 70 years old.

So and a lot of those are are reaching 100.

So you definitely need those replaced.

Sewers, that's a whole other can of worms, right?

We're lining some of them, and um that's another big um actual problem, right?

We've seen entire buses sink into streets because of water leaks.

Um we continue to see it in others, again, it's not just us, other cities, other legacy cities as well.

I mean, just streets and foundations of buildings collapsing.

Uh landslides.

Um not all of them just you know acts of God either.

Some of them, because again, for 50 years, there was a broken pipe leaking.

That's not okay.

Um, and so as I often do at community meetings, I apologize to the public for how awful it is with infrastructure repair out there, but let us all be mad at the 1980s and the 1990s and the 2000s, right?

Because they didn't do their replacements.

And so we're doing 50 years of replacements basically all at once.

Um and um and we'll be good for a while on some of those streets.

But what we I believe we have done rightfully so in many places is replaced where there are lots of people.

Certainly we prioritized um where there were the most children when we started with the lead water service lines, which I think is the right thing to have done.

Right.

Um but where there are no house where there is no housing now.

Did we replace any of those laterals and mains?

No.

Um and I encourage all of you to go, you can go to the PGH to a website and you can look and click on where you do live and see if your water line has been replaced or not, and please use a water filter.

Um so that I believe, again, unfortunately, because of um our jurisdiction, we don't even really control the water plant anymore, or the water, you know, facilities anymore.

Um we don't own them.

But we need to figure out a way that it's part of our proactive planning.

It's one of the other grievances I had with the comprehensive plan because we just don't we don't control it.

We we have no jurisdiction over the utilities that I can see at the planning commission or at the city council level.

So, you know, any welcome thoughts would be helpful.

I don't know if you have any last big thoughts at the end of a four-hour interview, but I'd be happy to hear them.

I'm happy to stuff.

You know what?

I mean, my my kids who've grown up in me doing this job, uh it is the running joke of my household that all I ever talked about is sewers.

So it's having you had to do a major sewer line replacement and putting a tuition, a semester's worth of tuition in in the it buried in the ground.

I did too.

I've been there.

Um our infrastructure is a competitive disadvantage for Pittsburgh and the region against the rest of the rest of the country that we're competing against.

There's no doubt about that in my mind.

I mean, I've been on I live, I heard the bridge go down in Fern Hollow.

That's how close it was to my house.

It's about I've about a what maybe a hundred yards from my house.

So it's I've been there, I know that and know that it's important.

I think that there is one that there's some options that we could think about for this.

I'm gonna use an example maybe as a way that we can be thinking about this as a planning commission going forward.

When I worked at city planning, it was not on it was not very uh rare.

It was a very often that the mayor would come in on a Monday morning after it had been been out for a run, and if you all knew who, you know, Tom, he was a big runner.

And he would come in, he'd say, I was out for a run.

I found a place to make a trail, figure out how we can get a trail to happen there as part of a developer.

I don't care if it's an easement or your requirement of approval or things like that.

I don't know legally if we can do that.

Um I think that's something to talk with the solicitor about.

But I think that there's ways that it's part of our development, especially major plan due to develop developments.

We should be talking apart as major developments that are correcting the sewers, making corrections to those infrastructure that infrastructure because again, I'm gonna tip normally step outside of my very narrow focus of zoning and land use on this, but I think that our infrastructure is absolutely a um a critical disadvantage that we have right now, and if we don't address it, we have a saying that we do in the in the building industry.

We either plan an elevator outage or it plans itself.

And we're dangerously on those places right now, and we need to be thinking more holistically as a region, not just as a city, but as a region about that.

Yes.

Yes.

Anyone else again don't feel obligated to know what the solutions are to infrastructure, but you know you can't build without it.

One of the things I'm I'm sorry, I mean one of the things I've been thinking about is the state has this BIOS program, business in our sites where it feels compelled to create pet ready sites for business attraction and expansion.

I think if we're going to have a conversation about housing, we need to have a discussion about a tool that is akin to BIOS, which is housing in our sites and make infrastructure, right?

Because when we ask nonprofits or private developers to do affordable housing or make housing more affordable, it's great to talk about an overlay that says everything shall be affordable.

It is a different thing to create the template by which things become more naturally affordable because the costs are reduced.

And so I and I don't think that this is just the City of Pittsburgh strategy.

I think this is a regional strategy.

I think this is a state and federal level play to say we need to do what we did in the 1950s when we created a lot of these neighborhoods, like many that are in your in your district and in the in the South Hills, where we planned for the government to do the very difficult lift of creating these sites that then housing could be placed on.

I think we try to do this on a project by project basis.

I think that's the problem, right?

There's a project, there's an opportunity, it's and it needs to figure out all of these things.

That's a very vertical way of thinking about what is a horizontal solution, which is the lot and block conditions in which we're trying to do housing.

So I don't have solutions, but I'm just thinking of the parallel of what we do on the business side.

Could that be appropriate on the housing side?

Maybe we should look back because those 1860s plots and Lawrenceville were built with no plumbing at all.

And there was just outhouses.

There was no plumbing in the house at all.

Um and so the Lawrenceville in the Flats was just a sea of outhouses.

Um how did it get it?

Like, what did the public works project look like?

And what was the financing?

When did those water and sewer lines go in?

I think is that's a good question.

It is a good idea.

I probably certainly know it.

And we are at that same inflection point, like we were committed to building a city, and again, we talked about market, but there was a market demand that says we have a corporation with people coming to move to this city, here are the needs, and the government responds to that to that opportunity, and I think we need to kind of look at that again.

And also government didn't pay for everything.

We also had a heavy level of corporate social responsibility of people taking care of the workers who needed to live in the city to serve the corporation.

We don't have that right now.

We don't have that.

Well we have a lot of federal funding for the water and infrastructure.

So there's that too.

Anyway, a final thoughts.

Let's just call it that.

I'll just open the floor.

You can talk about infrastructure, you can talk about the bifurcated real estate market.

You can just say, thank you.

It was nice being here.

Um and we can wrap it up.

Although I don't think they can the chair has had I'm technically not the last council member.

Sorry.

It's okay.

We get a little punchy at the end of the day.

Any final thoughts from for my my questions?

Uh well, I will say this.

I think those are are very important things to not just put on the back burner, but I think that they need to be part of the front end conversations because it is a really big deal.

Infrastructure is is more than just a big deal.

Uh and and I don't know who no one party can bear the burden.

And I and I, you know, is it federal grants you chase?

Is it I mean, how do you solve for it and and maybe it's a a little bit of everybody?

Um I don't know who did the Al Mano site.

I mean, like who is it we we Pardon?

Foundations?

Yeah, so maybe is it that we go to the foundations and and you know, and then we you know do some grants at the same time, and uh if they're trying trying to solve for X, um, then maybe there can be payment systems there.

Performance correct we need payment in lieu of performance.

If you cannot deliver affordable housing by right, we should have people investing in a fund that enables housing affordability in some other capacity, and we should not be shy about that.

Oh, I definitely don't think we should be shy about that.

But I mean we I mean, I think we could have a not a pajama party, but I mean we can sit down and and break it on the uh no, I've been through a 12-hour session, so uh, but I will say that you know we i uh there's so much more to talk about um and so many things just sort of throw on the table as it relates.

Thank you.

I I'm not gonna ask any more questions, so I'm done.

I appreciate the time.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Thank you.

Um the bad part about being a chair is you do have to wait to the very end before you get a chance to speak.

Um the good part is normally by the time you get to this point, everything's been discussed.

So I will actually not really chime in here because most of what's on my mind is actually not to your point, is actually not germane to the planning commission.

It's more philosophical.

What I will say is somewhat germane to the planning commission is I think we do have to, as we look at zoning and rework rewriting our zoning, factor weather into our zoning.

Um because the city is changing.

We're wetter than ever, we're also warming up more, and that is affecting landslides.

And so where do we build, where do we designate greenways, things of that nature, um, I think is germane to you all.

The only other thing I'll sort of add to the conversation, and this is actually not germane um to the decisions you all will have to make, but I think it's worth just putting on the record based on some of the conversation I've heard about needing to attract new residents, having net zero because we've pushed out 10,000 African Americans, is I'm grateful that you all have chosen to either move to Pittsburgh or move back.

But there's no city, and then if if you know one, please let me know.

There's no city in America that is growing simply because white men are doing well there.

We have to, as we consider all the things that we're considering, and I'm not sure how zoning will affect us, but we have to consider the diversification ethnically, racially of our city and ensuring that all those other residents are also put in a position to do well because that is we that is how we will grow.

So I just want to put that on the record.

You can respond or not.

Um I don't see any responses, so therefore we have exhausted the business of this pre-agenda hearing, and we are adjourned.

Thank you.