Good evening.

I'd like to call the February 10th, 2026 Planning Board to order.

Please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance.

For which it stands under God, individual liberty and justice for all.

My name is Joe Fioli serving as chairman tonight, uh members of the planning board sitting tonight to my right, Damon Norcross.

Go to Team USA.

Good evening, Salem.

Mick De Hellenic.

Good evening, Salem.

And to my left, Town Council Rep Jeff Hatch.

Good evening.

Chuck Sabah.

Good evening, Salem.

Jim Harvey.

Good evening.

And with us for the planning department is Jacob Lafontaine.

The agenda for tonight is as follows.

We have two items of new business.

The first item is the Tuscan Village Block 1300 site plan that's a sign for Whole Foods.

It's a public hearing for a conditional use permit for a second monument sign for building 1300.

And the second item of new business is a Wellco Learning LLC site plan.

That's a public hearing for an 11,000 square foot daycare facility with 142 students at 142 Main Street.

Okay, we have uh one item of uh minutes from January 13th.

Mr.

Chair, I move to accept the minutes of the January 13th, 2026 planning board minutes as written.

Second.

Motion and second to approve the January 13, 2026 meeting minutes.

Any discussion?

All in favor abstain.

601.

Go to the first item of uh new business.

That's the Tuscan Village Block 1300 uh Whole Food Site Plan.

Um plan complete.

Yes, the plan is complete.

Is Chair I move to accept the plan as complete?

Second.

Motion a second to accept the plan.

All in favor.

That's unanimous.

So butters, please.

The butters are as follows.

If you're here, please indicate by saying so there, Tuscan Village Master Development, OMJ Realty, Tuscan Village Block 1200, Tuscan South Village, Tuscan Village School Building, Tuskin Block 2000.

Thank you, sir.

Tuscan TV Block 2000 Master Association.

Rockenham 620, Inc., State of New Hampshire DOT, Tuscan Village Master Development LLC, and that is all.

Thank you.

To the applicant to present the plan, please.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, members of the board for the record.

My name is Mark Rose, and with Tuscan Village Development representing the Tuscan Village Building 1300 block and the South Village Tuscan site.

Yeah.

So this um this property uh where the signs are located are on the South Village lot, the South Village, uh Tuscan Village South District lot, which is to the left.

And then the uh user, which is Whole Foods, is on that lot.

That's to the right.

That's why they were both uh shown on uh this particular plan.

So if you go to the next so this is a location map which shows you can see that property line to the right hand side, uh that's the uh property line between the South Village District lot and the uh building 1300 block uh or Tuscan Village 1300 block lot where Whole Foods is, and you see that to the right of your screen.

Uh and we're showing two uh freestanding monument signs locations.

One is as you're coming in off of 28 on uh via Tuscana.

Um it's right at the uh triangular area which uh separates uh the traffic from going right or going left.

It's really also kind of a directional sign uh for Whole Foods.

The second one is at the entrance to the parking lot.

Uh both of these signs are monument signs, they conform to the uh sign standards in terms of size uh area.

Um both of these signs also received a variance.

I believe it was last month or maybe in uh November for off-premises signs.

So we need a conditional use permit uh for these signs.

If you go to the next one, those are what the signs will uh look like, the monument signs.

Again, they conform to the uh requirements of the monument signs which were put together for uh in this case, well, for uh, so for example, Chick-fil-A and the the bank site both have these signs.

Uh those were these were specific requirement uh for monument signs for what we called a single tenant on us on not on its own lot.

So Chick-fil-A, as you know, Chick-fil-A and the bank are both on the uh South Village lot, uh so they do not contain their own lot.

The other example uh which is a little different is Clems, which has two uh free standing signs.

They have one uh that is at along Mall Road, and those are uh those are under the other requirements for freestanding monument signs.

So that one's a little bit higher.

I think the max height is 15 feet on that.

Uh and then they have a secondary monument sign that's off of uh Artisan Drive.

So those are kind of the examples of what we have done uh in the village with uh these these uh monument signs for some of these businesses.

So if we could go um so I'm gonna read uh the criteria, well I'll read the beginning of the criteria.

Um so again, Tuscan Village Development on behalf of Tuscan Village Block 1300, LLC and Tuscan South Village LLC is hereby requesting a conditional use permit from the sailing planning board for the proposed freestanding monument signs for the Whole Foods tenant located in building 1300.

A variance for the two free standing monument signs was granted for signs being located off-premises on the adjacent lot to the Whole Foods tenant location.

The proposed conditional use permit requested is to allow for a second free standing monument sign on the same frontage Route 28 as the first free standing monument sign, where one sign per lot frontage is allowed.

Although the free standing monument signs are for a retail tenant, which is Whole Foods, located in a multi-use building, the monument signs will conform to the requirements for section 10 freestanding identification signs, paragraphs A through I with the signed dimensional requirements adhering to paragraph E, which is for standalone single tenant buildings not on their own lot.

In addition to the number of signs, the condition use permit requests is also to modify the requirements under Section 10 Freestanding Signs E to allow the freestanding signs for a tenant that is in a standalone building with multi-tenant uses versus a standalone single tenant building.

Um, Tuskia, we can just reference the rest of the letter into the record.

Yeah, we'll reference the date and uh date and the letter into the record.

Okay.

So if you want, I can go through the criteria.

No, well just reference the record.

Yeah, all right from the planning department.

So I guess that ends my presentation.

So if the board has any questions, I'd like to answer.

Uh go ahead from the planning department's comments.

Um I'll try to be quick as uh as well.

They um Mr.

Gross had shown the locations of the signs.

The reason why this is required is because uh they're having they're proposing two signs.

They are essentially treating this as the uh monument sign for all of building 1300.

So if they wanted to come in for a multi-tenant sign, they'd have to kind of correct the record because uh this is the second sign.

They're both off-site.

Mr.

Gross acknowledged that they uh received a uh variance from the zoning board of adjustment for that.

Uh aside from that, that was in at the January meeting.

The zoning board granted the variance with conditions uh including one that the um a directional arrow be added to the sign.

So I just wanted to quickly, this is Mr.

Gross's presentation, but because this is a decision point, the ZBA asked for a directional arrow, the applicant is amendable to it, so we would just reinforce that with the zoning, sorry, with the uh conditional use permit if the board is uh comfortable with that, and that's so that people uh when they are turning in from 28 will know that Whole Foods is uh to the right.

Uh and aside from that, Mr.

Gross already stated this, but this is the excerpt from our Tuskin Village Sign Standards that they're gonna meet and comply with with that for both signs there.

Um so the other condition would be that uh the signs shall comply with Tusking Village Sign Standard I 10E, which is the excerpt on the right-hand side there.

Um aside from that, not really anything else to you to add to the presentation.

Okay, any members of the public like to speak on the plan?

Go to the board for comments, concerns, questions, everything.

Just a quick question.

Uh Mr.

Lafontaine, do we the way our packet read is that it sounded as though they need a conditional use uh under section 10 of the Tuscan sign standards as well?

Is it do we just need to provide a C UP for our own ordinance?

Um the Tuscan Village Science Standards point to Section 49702H.

So the criteria are the same.

So if you refer to 10, I think it points to uh the ordinance, if that makes sense.

All right, thank you.

Mr.

Norcross, yeah, Mr.

Hatch.

Um Mr.

Gross.

So as for the other tenants of building 1300, right now I guess you're not foreseeing them asking the same thing.

But if they do, do you plan on adding to this sign?

Is that gonna be it?

Or no.

Absolutely not, they're not coming.

No.

This is because all signs are uh reviewed by uh Tuscan Village Joe Farrow.

Um it is not the intent to have a multi-tenant sign, for example, the market basket site.

You know, they have a yep.

That's not the intent here.

Because Whole Foods is a uh probably one of the largest uh tenants in this building.

Uh that's the only reason that they are getting uh these monument signs, and they need them for advertising.

Okay.

You have thanks.

Anything further?

No.

Entertainable, I guess.

Sorry, really quick.

Um, so in total, how many signs is Whole Foods having?

Because I know they're having wall signs, which I believe you've already come here for.

But so in total, how many signs are they having?

They have the two monument signs, and I believe there's one, two, three wall signs.

But they're obviously capturing different views that are not really by like a like you can you can't be standing on one side of the building and see another sign.

You can't see two signs.

You can only really see one sign at a time.

And the only other sign is a uh I believe it's a directional sign for the garage that says Whole Foods only.

Okay.

Parking.

Yeah, you have a two wall signs, the blade sign, and then the directional sign for the parking.

Is that correct?

Yes.

Okay.

Mr.

Chair, I move to approve a conditional use permit under section 490-702H and section 10 of the Tuscan sign standards to allow two off-site monument signs where one is allowed, subject to oh.

We need to do turn the discussion, but we can do it now if you need the bill of motion for that.

So we'll go we should get conditions before recommended conditions of approval would be one uh no prior to issuance of sign permit, no conditional use permit on plan.

Uh two signs shall comply with Tuscan Village Science Standards, I 10E.

Uh sorry, Roman numeral one, not I.

Uh three directional arrow shall be added to sign one.

Four, any modification to sign requires a review and approval from planning board.

And five, all representations made by applicant or agents and all notes on the plan are incorporated as part of the approval.

Apologies, Mr.

Chair.

Uh so I move to approve a conditional use permit under section 490-702H and section 10 of the Tuscan sign standards to allow two off-site monument signs where one is allowed subject to the five conditions as outlined by Mr.

Lafontaine with reference to the letter from the applicant dated January 12th, 2026 with revisions on January 16th, 2026.

Second.

Any discussion on that?

All in favor.

It's unanimous, thank you.

Thank you.

Next item of new business on the agenda is the WellCo Learning LLC site plan.

It's a public hearing for 11,000 square foot day camp facility with 142 students at 142 Main Street.

Yes, the plan is complete.

Ms.

Chair, I move to accept the application as complete.

Second.

Motion is second to accept the Welco Learning site plan.

All those in favor?

Unanimous butters, please.

The butters are as follows.

If you're here, please indicate by saying so.

They are Met Scott 21, LeBrec Family Trust, Kohler, CJB V properties, E uh E Point Plaza, E Point LLC, rather.

Town of Salem, Peaver and Hicks, Patriot Investment Group, CONUS, Mobile Courts, Inc., and that is all.

Thank you.

Go to the applicant to present the plan.

Okay, good evening.

My name is Ian Ainsley.

I am an engineer for Meiser Brem.

I am here with Jeff and Carrie Welton.

They are the owners of Welco Learning.

And Joshua Klein of Stonefield Engineering.

He is the traffic engineer on this project.

So we're here to discuss 142 Main Street.

It's the former Right Aid location.

I think the board knows that you know Right Aid went out of business, so that building is now sitting there vacant.

And what we're proposing to do is change the use of that building and put in a Goddard School.

If you're not familiar with the Goddard School, they're a national organization.

They have several locations in New Hampshire.

They focus on early childhood education, so six months to six years, kind of talking to younger children.

What's interesting is even though they sort of operate as a school as an educational facility, they're licensed by the state as a daycare.

And in Salem, there's only one zone where a daycare is permitted.

It's the limited community shopping village district.

So last week we went to the zoning board and got a variance to allow this use on this property in the commercial commercial industrial C zone.

And I'm going to kind of walk you through the site as it is now.

I think the site has been in front of the planning board before.

I don't think so.

Can you pick that up, Brendan?

He's okay.

Okay, good enough.

All right.

So if you recall from the other times this plan has been in front of the board, the property line on this property actually bisects the building that's there.

So there's another building and another property back here.

The site that we're talking about is the right aid here, 11,000 square feet, the parking in the front, and then this parking right here.

That is the subject property 142 Main Street.

Right now there's three curve cuts on the property.

You can come in and out.

This is Sammy J's over here.

You can come in and out here.

You can go in only here in the middle, and you can go out toward the right.

What we're proposing to do, Jacob, if you want to change it to the proposed.

What we're proposing to do is one, change the use of the building, renovate it, and turn it into the guarded school.

We would be adding a 4,000 square foot ofdoor play area here.

And in order to facilitate that, we would be turning these two curb cuts into two-way curb cuts to allow someone to go in, out, and access these parking spaces on either side of the play area.

We have dedicated staff parking in the rear, as well as a pedestrian footpath.

So anybody that parks back here, they want to get to the front of the building.

They can get onto the walkway, get along the play area, and get to the front.

The buildings on water sewer right now, that's going to stay the same.

We have a reduction in impervious area, so we're not expecting any more stormwater, any more sort of environmental impact.

The site is actually going to get a little bit better from a building coverage perspective.

We're expecting about 140 students and 30 staff, so we've done our parking to accommodate that.

I think the right aid, there was 56 spaces required for that retail use, and there's 51 required for this use.

We actually have the same amount of spaces than were there existing, so we're not losing any spaces, but we are reducing the required amount of spaces, so it's a little bit of an improvement.

So that's that's kind of a gist to the site.

I'm gonna turn it over to the Weltons to kind of tell you a little bit about what the guarded school is.

Good evening, Chairman, uh, members of the planning board and members of the public.

My name is Carrie Welton.

I will be the owner and operator of the proposed Goddard School at 142 Main Street.

Um I'm coming, I'm accompanied this evening by my husband Jeff.

Uh we currently live in Windham and we have three children.

We're very excited about the opportunity to bring this school to the town of Salem.

Um I also want to share that I grew up in Atkinson and have been familiar with this area my entire life.

Uh this is a community that is very important to our family, and that perspective has guided how thoughtfully we are approaching this project.

Uh thank you for the opportunity to speak this evening and for your time reviewing our application.

As Ian mentioned, the Goddard School is a nationally recognized early childhood education program serving children from infancy through pre-K.

Our focus is on high quality education, safety, and consistent operational standards.

I will be the on-site owner and operator of this school and directly responsible for its daily operations.

That includes staffing, licensing, regulatory compliance, safety and security procedures, and ongoing coordination with families and the town.

We are before the planning board in connection with the proposed site plan for an early childhood education center at this location, and our goal is to develop and operate a facility that serves local working families, functions in a safe, orderly, and professional managed manner, and is compatible with the surrounding area and consistent with the intent of local land use regulations.

We understand the planning board's role in evaluating site design, traffic circulation, pedestrian safety, parking, and overall neighborhood impact.

These considerations have guided our planning from the beginning, particularly with respect to building layout, playground location, drop-off and pickup procedures, traffic flow, and hours of operation.

We believe the site is well suited for this use and that the proposed plan reflects a thoughtful approach that minimizes impacts while providing a valuable community service.

We are committed to working collaboratively with town staff and the board to refine details as part of the approval process, and we are committed to operating in a way that minimizes any impact to the neighborhood.

Thank you again for your time and consideration, and we're happy to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you.

We'll hear from uh Miss Ainsley, are you all set?

We'll go to the planning department.

Uh just regarding pickup and drop off.

So just something to keep in mind since these are young children when you think of pickup and drop off.

The parents are going to be coming in and parking and then getting out and escorting the child into the building.

So it's not like older children, you know, where you pull up in this kind of a line of cars backing up or something like that.

We have the front 10 spaces here, right in front of the building as dedicated pickup and drop-off spaces.

And we base that on other Goddard locations and what they typically expect for drop-off time.

So I just want to add that.

Thank you.

We do have some more info on the pickup and drop-up procedures if this is the time to say that, or if you want to wait for questions.

Sure.

Um so typical like the drop-off times, as he mentioned, um, it is a drop-off where they will park and come into the building.

Uh it's typically spread out in the morning between uh 7 to 9.30, and the hours of operation are 7 a.m.

to 6 p.m.

Uh because the times the drop-off times are spread out, the capacity handles it and the daily traffic flow.

Um there's also a variety of schedules.

There's part-time, half-time, excuse me, part-time, full-time, half day, um, and that's just to accommodate different familial needs.

And again, upon arrival, the parents will park, enter the foyer, escort their child to the classroom, ask any questions for the teacher, uh, speak with with anyone else in the building, and we estimate that to take anywhere from like three to five minutes.

So they're, you know, they're kind of in and out.

Um pickup is the same but reversed.

Um that's typically from about 3 p.m.

to six, depending on if they have other children in the area.

And as he also noted, uh teachers and staff will park further away from the building so that the parents can be nice and close and have minimal impact to have to get into the building.

Thank you.

Mr.

Lafontaine here from uh hear your comments, please.

Okay.

Um so as the applicant mentioned, they're proposing to convert the former right aid location to a 142 student daycare facility.

They did receive a variance from the zoning board of adjustment uh in uh this past month, or actually maybe it was this month.

It was this month rather, um, for the use as Mr.

Ainsley had highlighted.

Uh daycare facilities are only allowed in uh relatively small uh areas of town, limited community shop and village, which is really two zones in the uh or two uh areas in our district and our town rather.

Um in terms of the building, so they're not gonna do a whole lot.

The I think the building currently uh complies pretty well to our design guidelines, and uh they're making some welcomed enhancements, they're adding some uh some windows to match the existing uh both on the uh sorry, the west side and the actually all uh the east-west and north side and probably the most consequential being the north side because that's street facing.

They're also adding a couple of doors.

Those are highlighted in red.

This one's to access the playground, and this is I believe just an emergency exit for the for the daycare.

One thing that we talked about was the landscape, and Mr.

Ansley did some submitted a landscape plan.

One thing I just highlighted here was that similar to other applications.

I don't know, this this is from 2023, so maybe that tree uh recovered or or maybe uh it was replaced.

But um we generally use a flight plan opera uh site plan process to replace any dead disease dyeing trees, uh and if this tree's not doing so great be an opportunity to do so.

Just also noticed a gap in uh plantins, it kind of has a um uh you know consistent plant and along the frontage, and there's a area here that's not planted.

Sometimes that's because of utilities, but we would probably at least explore it in this instance.

Going back to 2007, there was some shrubs, which is another thing that you've uh required to try to soften the uh parking in the front of the plaza when you adopted the master plan.

One of the focuses was the main street corridor to try to enhance that uh with landscaping, and then you talked about that when the applicant at East Point Plaza came in in 2024 and required some uh veget vegetation enhancements.

A lot of the discussion to this point is is uh focused on circulation.

We met earlier today uh with the applicant's uh traffic consultant and then also with uh Steve Purnow, the town's traffic consultant.

Uh Mr.

Ansley already kind of highlighted this.

This is how uh circulation functions on site, and it's kind of probably the preferred uh circulation right now because everything, you know, when you have this many curb cuts, I mean they've got one curb cut here uh with an entrance to East Point Plaza and then an exit here.

So everything kind of funnels to this one center center aisle, and then uh here as well.

This is full access in front of the building, and then I believe this is also full access to the rear, so uh, you know, people could utilize church app to to exit rather than the center curb cut.

But ultimately, I think for the site conditions and and the fact that there's a uh cross parking easement and they have a shared parking arrangement, it seems to kind of function pretty well uh as it exists today.

Uh we've raised the concerns to the applicant about uh proposing to convert these one-way aisles to full access, particularly this one here.

Uh you can see that you've already got an entrance here to East Point Plaza, and then to convert this exit only to a full access uh ultimately would result in a number of conflict points.

Uh the other concern would be that we're now creating where you have uh uh through circulation, there's a playground in the middle, and you're creating two dead end aisles.

Uh when we met with the applicant earlier, they had a couple alternative layouts that maybe they'll they'll show, but uh they are aware of these concerns and I think they're working to address it.

Just in terms of the circulation in particular, uh Steve Purnow, we met earlier and he issued a draft memo, which will be finalized, I believe, tomorrow.

So the applicant hasn't seen this, but they are aware of these items because we've uh I know I've raised them and Mr.

Purnow has raised them as well.

But Mr.

Purnow states in the draft memo again, based on our preliminary review of uh the change of use plan, we cannot support the driveway configuration currently proposed on Main Street, nor the internal traffic circulation pattern.

Access management issues such as the number of off uh number of site driveways, the number of basic conflict points, driveway proximity, in the use of dead-end traffic aisles should be reconsidered by the engineer of record.

And he also goes on to state that the um the site driveway, this was from the uh field stone uh field stone, not in field stone, stone field.

Stone field, uh Stone Fields uh report.

There's actually a different engineer from Fieldstone in Milford, but anyway, uh the site driveways and on-site layout have been designed to provide for effective access to and from the subject property.

Uh Mr.

Pern now responds to the statement from Stonefield and states we respectfully disagree at this juncture, as both access configuration on Main Street and on-site parking circulation need to be improved.

So I think all this kind of just goes to say that uh, you know, it's a work in progress.

I I you know, in meeting with the applicant, I think they acknowledge that and in their work and to address it, but as currently configured, I think there's some pretty uh significant concerns uh you know, taking a condition that's not necessarily ideal, but certainly making it uh worse.

Normally, uh in your experience, I'm sure you you recall that we've seen um uh other properties and we've kind of reverted them uh or reinforced the one-way circulation.

Um then Mr.

Brown also issued a memo.

This was to the zoning board of adjustment, but I think it uh is relative to the site plan aspect, so it'd be pertinent to read here, and it says the proposed changes to the access and egress drives are of concern and appear to increase the potential for turn and movement conflicts along with creating difficult circulation patterns on the site.

And uh he talks about any proposed changes to the access, egress, and circulation patterns need to be reviewed and approved by the town's traffic consultant.

That was a stipulation by the zoning board of adjustment too.

The zoning board approved the use, but stated that they anticipated that the traffic circulation would be reviewed by uh Steve Purnow, our our third party traffic consultant.

Um this is uh I think I just was gonna call out that gap here in landscape, and so you can kind of see there's a somewhat consistent row of of trees here, and then a bit of a gap there.

We could talk to the applicant about that.

This here kind of shows the proximity of the curb cuts.

So this is the entrance uh only into East Point Plaza, this is the exit, and then uh you have the entrance only here as well, and then there's another full access curb cut uh between hoxies and in this parcel.

So a lot of movements, a lot of opportunity for movements right now.

Uh it's restricted to you know, uh in uh out, in, and then full access and to convert this to full access, full access, and then have an entrance here was the concern there.

Another item we talked about when East Point Plaza was uh reviewed back in October of 2024 for the village playroom was the pedestrian connection.

This plaza has been subject to a cross parking easement uh I think since the 80s or 90s, uh Mr.

Gaffney would recall.

But um at the time when East Point Plaza was approved, they had a uh kind of a pedestrian pathway uh so that you could access uh each parcel, and there was actually a stairwell here, and I think we discussed we did discuss this in October.

Uh so you can kind of vaguely see that this was filled in, and then you can also see that this was cross-hatched at one point, so that there was a pedestrian connection between the two.

So, one question that we would have for the board, or one item we would have for discussion for the board would whether or not that connection should be re-established.

They did provide um a crosswalk at grade here, and that was kind of I think like from my recollection it was an interim condition.

I think the board maybe didn't feel it warranted uh, you know, uh uh stairwell at that time, and uh my sense was that we would wait uh you know if it warranted it in the future, and this would be that opportunity to discuss whether or not you think that uh it should be added.

And the other thing is that right now, uh, even though that this crossed hatched area is no longer cross-hatched, uh, this area is, and they're proposing to eliminate that.

So there, you know, it's probably uh some discussion on whether or not we want to continue to have an internal access through the through the parking lot.

Um aside from that, uh we talked about the traffic uh quite a bit, uh, pedestrian circulation, they've got uh sidewalk and connections to the sidewalk on Main Street.

Uh the the lot coverage is okay.

They're actually going to reduce lot coverage right now.

It's existing at 85%.

They're proposing it at 80.4.

You may recall that when the uh parcels were subdivided, uh, that was in 25, I believe in June of 25.

Uh the board looked at it as if the whole site was one, so they can't exceed 70% lock coverage on all three parcels.

Here they're reducing it, so it's not an issue.

Um we uh uh proposed setback at the front of the parking lot aisle is needed.

I noted uh existing conditions should be read to uh existing lock coverage that are proposed.

I think Mr.

Ainsley actually corrected that.

And uh the other item I I didn't discuss with the applicant, but I just noticed recently when I was looking at um the street view is um you know it might it might warrant a photometric uh plan.

And the reason I say that is because of the existing light.

They're they're proposing to repurpose the existing lights, but of course, for this use you're gonna have you know young children and families in the plaza and in New England where it gets uh dark uh you know, at four o'clock uh before the kids are getting picked up.

Uh we might I think it probably would be prudent to have a photometric plan provided because uh this is the current site lighting.

So you've got you know some smaller light posts, there's one there, and I believe there's another one at the rear of the site, and they are proposing some uh lights on the building, but uh probably warranted to have a photometric plan just so that we can ensure that we have adequate lighting when those children are you know uh being walked to the to the vehicles.

I know my kids uh would benefit from it.

Um so those are the items again.

The the major item I think is the circulation.

Uh we met earlier on it today.

Uh Mr.

Pern now has issued the draft memo, which we anticipate to be finalized probably by tomorrow.

So I know the applicant is eager to work on addressing some of those uh comments, but obviously welcome the board to um provide any input you have and potentially reinforce uh the request of the uh traffic consultant and then our uh senior engineer and uh the other item is we have a traffic scope meeting that initially wasn't done, but we when we met with the applicant today, uh Mr.

Pernau and I decided that or uh determined that it'd be good to have that scope meeting just to ensure that everybody's on the same page, and um we would ask you to vote on the scope meeting or sorry, the traffic study scope, which would be um that uh driveway counts which weren't submitted with the initial application, but those be submitted.

So the study area would be the three intersections, traffic counts only, so it wouldn't be a full traffic analysis, but it would provide us with uh raw data, real data of the existing site drives to project uh what the existing condition is and then what the proposed condition is.

Those would be done on the typical weekday, Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday from 7 to 9 a.m., 12 to 1 at the street peak hour on Main Street, and then uh between 4 and 6 p.m.

as well.

And Mr.

Pur now also notes in this uh scope, driveway configuration, number of drives, conflict points, park and supply, dead end aisles, emergency vehicle access, and uh consultation with NHTOT uh to make sure that they don't have any concerns due to proximity to the to the depot, uh be other items that are addressed.

So recommendation would be that the board vote on the scope meet, and then we could provide this to the applicant and Mr.

Perno.

Uh uh recommendation from the staff tonight would be to continue the application as we're uh still pending uh outside uh consultant approval and then also staff approvals as well.

Thank you.

Any members of the public like to speak on the plan?

Go to the board for a couple minutes.

Uh Ms.

Culsen?

Um Jacob, so you had mentioned about um notifying DOT about this.

Would would the intent be to make them go through like a DOT permit process?

No, honestly, I don't think DOT is gonna have an interest.

Um it's urban compact, so it's not really under the purview of DOT in this area.

Um but in the past we've we've sent a notice to DOT as a courtesy because um I think mostly because we've got federal funds to do the reconstruction of the depot.

Sure.

Um so I don't I don't think uh when DOT was contacted about auto zone, for instance.

I don't I think they came back with that they were okay with the project as proposed.

I'd imagine it'd probably be something similar here, but it's uh I think it's a good point that Mr.

Purnow raised.

I tend to agree.

I was I was concerned that you were gonna make them go through the whole DOT process, and that's not a process you want to go to unless you have to.

Yeah, he just says does DOT have jurisdiction proximity to depot.

Yeah.

Mr.

Brown, senior engineer, and he didn't think so either, but we have in the past in proximity to the depot.

Yeah, reaches a currency.

We've studied that intersection to death as one other board member uh states fairly often, but um I I don't I agree with you that notifying them as a curse is probably fine, but definitely don't go through the whole DOT process.

Um I agree about the the site lighting, uh, the landscaping, and I think that um that pedestrian walkway is probably more useful now than ever.

Um because as a you know, if you're if you're a three-year-old and you know that there's a place space right next door, you're gonna try to drag a parent over there to go do that after school, provided that they're open.

But um, I think that's a a great neighbor amenity that you have there.

Um, and it might be worth kind of embracing that to allow for a crosswalk over um to that space.

Um could argue that with hoxies as well, but um, you know, I think that's a much shorter distance than going across the entire parking lot.

Um I'm not overly concerned about the traffic in general.

Um I agree about the site maneuverability, but not necessarily the traffic.

Um I think daycares generally generate a lot less traffic than people anticipate, and it's during really tight windows.

Um I'm not overly concerned about that.

I think that's all I have.

Thanks.

Mr.

Saba.

I am concerned about the traffic.

Okay, that's my major concern.

Um, and you know, your drop-off time seven to nine thirty, three to six uh pickup.

Uh you know, you got five and a half hours of kids and parents coming in and going out and coming in and going out.

Approximately do you know how many what's your estimate of how many parents are going to be dropping off children between seven and nine thirty?

It is I mean, I would assume that the normal number of children is probably one, maybe two on occasion.

So there's an awful lot of traffic going in and out for six hours during the course of the day.

Very different from a pharmacy.

That's my concern.

I feel like our traffic expert can help with that.

Uh good evening, Josh Klein, Stonefield Engineering and Design, uh, traffic engineer on the project, licensed engineer, New Hampshire as well as eight other states.

Um we did prepare an initial trapping and park parking assessment memo.

So that does not include counts.

We had a great meeting this afternoon.

Our team kind of got brought on a little bit closer to the meeting, so we were happy to have the scoping meeting today, and I think get some of that feedback from Steve as well as you know tonight to get feedback.

Um totally hear your concern.

I think a lot of a lot of that concern relates to I think what we're going to be working through with Steve and looking at kind of the circulation of the site.

You know, one of the the big things here in school happens to be in Goddard's name is this is a daycare, and they you know, schools have that that spike 85 to 90 percent of traffic becomes comes in a 15 to 30 minute window.

You know, daycares have that spread out, and I think you know, the um having a drop-off and pickup designated area really helps and benefits the plan when it comes to that.

You know, you know, for reference, it was kind of you know hit on this morning.

You know, drop-up time moves quick, about five minutes on average, you know, based on you know, operational data as well as counts that I've that our our company has done as well as I personally have done.

Pickup only takes about eight minutes.

So it's a it's a quick operation.

What's nice is there's designated areas that parents can kind of pull up, bring their children in, bring their children out.

It's very quick.

I mean, I bring my daughter in and out of daycare every day, right to the classroom, drop her off, handoff, come right back to my to my vehicle.

When we talk about the number of children, it was kind of touched on earlier.

It's interesting, right?

License capacity is 142.

But there's not going to be 142 children there every day, right?

It was mentioned earlier.

We have part-time children, we have full-time children, and we have half-day children.

So, you know, you got to take that number and you shrink it down a little bit.

We have sick, we have sick kids in every day.

So a lot of times we say about 10% of you know, kind of that daily capacity is dropped down.

We have siblings, so 25% typically at daycares are siblings.

So again, you might have two to three children in one vehicle to kind of again, you know, kind of take that that traffic number down a little bit as well.

Um so we we definitely understand it.

We think the key here is kind of working, you know, with the peer reviewer to make sure that we're comfortable with that site circulation, make sure that parents can kind of get in safely, guided to those drop-off and pickup spaces, um, and then be able to be able to leave.

You know, again, when you you know, having it spread out, you know, I think really does help from an overall traffic perspective, uh, but we definitely want to make sure vehicles can get in and out safely.

Thank you.

Mr.

Halloween, on this uh discussion, I'd like to take this uh another level deeper traffic movement is a concern, and specifically what we're talking about here is pickup and draw drop off.

I've uh been at Goddard schools and done pickup and drop off as uh recently as this past summer to different state, different location, of course.

What I'm looking at here is eight plus two parking spaces that designated for for this from the experiences of seeing that is nowhere near adequate during your albeit peak times, but there's the morning and afternoon now.

I think the applicant was talking about some sort of staggering of either grades or classes or something, and I'd like to I think it would behoove us to see what that procedure is.

Um I'm not seeing eight plus two being being enough for that for that at all.

But I think you're alluding to a plan to handle it.

I I just don't see see that see that yet.

Yeah, I'm happy I can let them kind of speak to how they they kind of operate the stagger.

I mean, we see it not only with Goddard with others that there is a stagger effect.

I mean, different parents have different schedule times and pay for different allotted times.

So I can I can have them touch on it in terms of the number eight.

I mean, we've we've studied a lot of a lot of day cares, you know, in in New England as well as beyond.

I mean, eight is is typically an adequate number, uh, but what we kind of also look at is you know what what is the total parking on site.

So there is sufficient parking, you know, on site to also handle other areas, you know, if if those spaces were happened to be full.

Um, so you know, we do feel kind of comfortable that there's enough room um to kind of handle the operation.

But I can understand that you do it.

Is that all?

No, I had one more.

It's just no dressing.

So it's it's it's kind of a it's kind of typical how other national you know, daycare operators run.

So, you know, um it's depending on parents' schedules and and kind of what they um allot for for their individual child.

So some parents may you know come earlier, they might have you know start around 7 or 7.30.

Some parents might come later, you know, nine, nine thirty.

So it kind of naturally, you know, staggers itself.

But we also kind of see a lot of times at daycare, you know.

I know this from experience.

I'm not gonna you know go to my daycare, you know, during a certain window.

I know it gets a little bit busy at that time, so I've kind of found a sweet spot that works well for me.

My wife has a different time that she goes to her daycare, goes to the daycare that kind of works well for for us.

So we kind of see that natural bell curve um kind of go into effect, and that's really where we see it get spread out across the window.

The other concern that I had um is I don't understand the flow of traffic during this pickup and drive drop off, it's not really noted here.

So I I think that that would be a good to have a better understanding of that.

I can explain that a little bit.

You want to pull up the plan, Jacob?

Uh it's on phone board, yeah.

So here's the right aid building right here to be transferred to the garden school.

There's a two-way curb cut existing here, and then the two-way curb cut that we are taking from an entrance and turning it into a two-way.

So you can come in and out, in and out, and then you have these eight spaces, and then the two handicapped spaces here as well.

So from either of these, you'll be able to turn in two-way, come in, park, take your child, walk into the building, come back, pull out, and leave in either direction.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I I would have I would think that that would lead to issues, but that's uh adding just complete variability and coming and going.

I'm I'm not sure I'd be uh comfortable with that.

So but anyway, thank you for showing showing me your data.

Mr.

Hatch.

Okay, I have a couple of things.

I'm gonna be I'm gonna assume it's safe to assume there's no buses involved in this, right?

No, there are no buses.

Thank you, Lloyd.

Okay.

So my question is is I know nothing about the guarded school, but I do have a three and four-year-old set of grandkids, and I'm always getting invited to the daycare or the preschool or whatever for some type of feel-good event.

So I'm assuming you're gonna have these during the day.

You you have these at your facility.

I don't have any planned as of yet, but yes, um I I don't I don't know that we will have them during the day.

If if we would, they'd typically be like an open house and off hours.

Um because we wouldn't want strangers in the building when our our children are there, that would be a safety concern.

Um so as of now, there's there's nothing planned during the day, especially during peak hours.

Okay.

Um this is gonna lead into what I what I'd like to see because I think that with this being shared parking with that to me, because these parking lots are all tied together, even the one with the east point plaza, is that we call that?

Yes, east point plaza, yeah.

So I would like to see those walkways in between those two parking areas reconstructed.

Um also you're going to need one from that leads to your front door with those parking spaces are in front of the playground.

So you're gonna lose some spots there.

I believe you're gonna need that there.

And to me, my suggestion for the the traffic flow with that need for that parking there, you're gonna end up banning some of those parking spots right there where the fireman's access gate in the playgrounds are.

So why don't you just have that one-way traffic coming in between that two-way between the two buildings where Hoxies is and then just one way across the front and one way out.

Let me just see if I understand what you're suggesting.

So, where are you thinking of one way in?

Right.

Well, that's gonna be a two that's gonna be a one-way in and a one-way.

I mean, that's gonna be two way too.

Stay as it is, yeah.

Yeah, so but I want people to go in there.

The metal one, yeah.

Nope.

Go back to where Hoxy's is go back, go back.

No, you left the other way.

So if they go in there, and they pull the right in to go into that parking lot, and they park, they drop off, and they exit out.

Let's abandon that two-way traffic lane right there.

Yeah, and just turn that into a one-way out.

And turn that into a one-way out.

I think I think that improves that a lot better than what you have there.

I think that two direction there is gonna and then especially with the parking there, somebody's gonna be backing up into somebody pulling in.

So if that's just a one-way out, I think you're better off to it.

That's something we can look at for sure.

So I mean, and that's I mean that's a Mr.

Pernal problem, but that's to me that that makes more sense than what you got.

But I definitely want to s I would definitely want the walkways reconnected, and you're gonna need a walkway.

So you're talking the walkway from the east point to connect down to here.

Right.

And right there in front of that gate where there used to be a walkway.

Yeah.

Then you're gonna need a walkway there between that one parking one side of that parking lot to the other.

Sure.

No, I think that can work.

And we have the um the pedestrian kind of footpath that I mentioned.

Yeah, that's here, so that could be connected, you know, wherever we come in and they could walk straight down through that.

Yeah, so I'm assuming you know, you you have multiple levels of of children, right?

Like pre-six weeks to six years.

I'm sorry, six weeks old to six years old.

Yeah, okay.

So traffic and people are gonna be coming in and kids are gonna be coming in at different hours.

Yes.

Okay.

I'm also assuming that you're gonna have holiday shows and things like that, because every day care, every school wants to show parents and their friends how wonderful a job they're doing.

When are those gonna take place and how is that gonna work?

I mean, this is a really really congested area, and I'm very concerned about parking and about traffic and coming in and out, and and it's kids.

Yeah, I mean, in our experience with our three kids, we've we've always had after hours events.

So they start at six o'clock or they start at five o'clock, and you have the families come in and join.

And again, I think if you look at the parking as a whole, especially if we're gonna be connecting the two parking lots again to East Point Plaza, there's a hundred and seven or a hundred and fifteen spots between the two parking lots.

Um and those are gonna be after hours versus the bagel shop that's in the East Point Plaza and in the village playroom that's also shut down at five o'clock.

We're gonna have I think ample parking and in that situation.

My experience, having three kids and three grandchildren and going to these events, is that it's not gonna work.

It's gonna be a nightmare with parking and a nightmare with traffic.

And a nightmare with picking up and dropping off kids.

Do you think I've done it for years.

Okay.

We we also we're currently in the thick of daycare.

Um I can personally say that we go to maybe half the events, and they are always after hours, which is when ours would be two.

And they're very sporadic.

We're talking maybe a Halloween party, um, something around the holidays.

Um a spring event, you know, just to celebrate spring, but again, off hours, not not during the these peak traffic times.

But there were also other businesses within this conglomerate of two different uh uh plazas that are connected.

That's a good majority.

I think the majority of them have I mean we're talking bagel shops that oh closes at two.

Village Playroom, I think I think the latest I've seen it open is five.

Five.

Yeah.

And it's not like a it's not like an elementary school where you have like kids' concerts and all the grandparts.

I know we're big here.

Well, I just I want to make sure everyone is for our model.

It's not we're not gonna be having concerts and you know, it's a couple hours.

Maybe have some coffee.

Mostly encouraging people just to abut the time that they would maybe already be there.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

I think it's a lovely idea.

Great use of uh of a ride aid, uh the consultants and everyone else, they will figure this out.

There's a solution to this, so I will not belabor the point.

I do want to just reiterate that I do agree with uh uh Mr.

Hatch's comments regarding you know, let's just make sure there's safe passage throughout um as we go through.

Um one comment, you have the um disadvantage that I actually have an office in the East Lake Plaza, so I'm here daily.

Um just general comment I will provide is the um uh one way out that generally East Lake Plaza would use, uh that you're thinking considering making a two-way.

Right now we have a left lane turn and a right lane turn.

It is very difficult at times to make that left turn.

I I think that is that's an advantage to those people that are going in there so to keep traffic from backing up.

Um I think with the you know bagel shop in the morning, the play play um uh village playhouse, uh some of the other businesses that are there as they come around.

The it we're exiting more than just your building.

Um so I think if you made that a two-way, I think it would cause some issues.

Um so that's all I have for you.

Okay, Scott's I have a couple more.

Um so to touch on the uh I guess really quick.

I'll I'll get out of the way of the that little walkway that you're talking about right next to the um play area.

If you could um point that out, Jacob.

Yeah, that like little red strip that you have to do.

That would be sort of that would be like a raised sidewalk, basically.

So that's a landscaped kind of buffer island right now.

So we would put a walkway right in there.

I was I was going to say if you I didn't realize that it was raised, um, I was going to suggest potentially moving the bollards off of the fence for the play area, just because if I'd rather if I'm going to to hit a bollard, which hopefully I'm not, but if I'm going to, I would hope I'm not hitting it right up against the fence of the play area, just moving it a few feet over might uh be helpful for safety reasons.

But um then I just want to make sure that we're not forgetting as far as these events go.

Um in my experience, it for what it's worth, it they're generally before hours, or like you know, it could be like a uh Halloween parade that's happening for 15 minutes at 10 o'clock in the morning.

Like it's really nothing crazy, and again, not at the Goddard School in general, just in daycares in general.

Um, and to that point, I want to make sure that we're not forgetting that that Keller Williams over in that corner does have events, you know, often enough, right?

You guys do all sorts of different trainings and uh and events where the parking lot does get pretty full.

Um so I imagine that those events are probably happening more frequently, if not like the same as these events that they would be having a few times a year.

Yeah, I imagine just to speak to that.

That's something that we can always be we can kind of coordinate if you if we think that that would be an issue.

That's something again.

I'm gonna be on site, so I'll be the person that can take all the feedback if we have issues there.

I don't think that's an issue.

I don't think it's an issue.

That's my point in saying that.

I just want to is that I like I'm saying that the Keller Williams also has events periodically, and it does fill the parking lot, but it it happens, like it's it's a couple few times a year.

It's not every not once a week, it's not on a regular basis.

Um then as far as the number of spaces in the drop-off area, there's a number of daycares in Salem currently that have um the same, if not less parking spaces right over in there in the drop-off areas.

Um Endless Opportunities, for example, has three to four tandem spaces that are right in front that you have to kind of go through a driveway, and then they have a few parking spaces off on the side.

That's honestly where staff parks.

Um so if you're if you can't get in that drive aisle, you're parking off to the side.

The point being, and there's a lot of kids that go there.

The point being is like you just you have to figure out what time works, and you know, you can always stagger, drop like pickup or drop-off times with the parents.

It can be coordinated, it's a it's a management thing.

Um the learning path is another one of them that has like nine to ten spaces out front.

Um, and New England Childcare Academy has like 13 spaces total, and they also share with an office that's in the same site.

Um, so I think that what they have for the number of spaces is not a concern.

Uh, the number of space in the drop-off area is not a concern.

The um the argument about the events, I also don't think is a concern.

Just my two cents.

Thank you.

One one more yeah.

Uh the uh events and things of that nature.

Um, maybe uh there's some availability on weekends that uh might you know we've been talking, I think about the weekday, but you know, maybe that's it for these bigger graduations, for example, that you may have that might be a good time to schedule those.

And and I think also we won't have as much staff on site when it's an event planned with parents who are bringing their children, we don't have to have the same ratios that we would have otherwise where they have to have the same number of uh employees there.

So that's usually when they they prefer to go home and not be part of and take a break.

So thank you.

Uh Jacob, can you um just summarize that uh um the parking study of the traffic study scope?

You you want us to vote on it?

Uh yeah, that's what you've done in the past when there's been a scope uh proposed.

So it would be um the size and type of development is to convert the right aid to a Goddard school with 142 students, 30 employees.

Uh in terms of the study uh area, it would be the three uh intersections, the three site drives, traffic counts only, uh and he notes out there unsignalized east driveway, middle driveway, entrance only, and west driveway for one thirty-eight and one forty-two main street.

The analysis period would be the typical weekday from seven to nine a.m.

and then twelve to one p.m.

which is a street peak hour, and then four to six p.m.

So it would be the peak of the daycare and then the peak of the street uh to give us counts for those.

And then uh they would use ITE land use code uh five six five, which is daycare and eight eighty pharmacy without drive-through to calculate what the increased uh the projected increased trips would be at those site driveways.

In terms of other issues to be addressed, it would be the driveway configuration, number of driveways, conflicts point conflict points, parking supply, dead end aisles, emergency vehicle access, consultation with NHGOT, and then uh there's been a lot of discussion on it.

If you'd like I could uh reiterate to Steve Pernow that he just wants consideration of events.

I know there's mixed opinions on the board, but I assume it's something the applicant could probably address pretty easily uh with a memo of how those events occur.

Okay, thank you.

Um motion to approve the traffic study as is.

Second.

Um all those in favor.

Okay, that's unanimous.

That traffic study scope is approved.

Um anything further from the board?

Just Mr.

Just one last note, at least from my perspective.

I'm less concerned about the number of parking spaces.

So as you go through this process, I would just speak for myself in this that if we need to give up parking spaces, go to angled parking spaces, you know, utilize the entrance on church street, you know, things like that, you know, even if you were to come it I'm open to considering less than required parking here to ensure that flow is right in those things.

So just again, you guys will work it out, but I want to kind of take that one off the table, at least from my perspective.

I do want to mention too, since we have that cross-parking agreement with East Point Plaza, you know, any kind of change we make that affects both of them, we are gonna have to coordinate with them and you know get their blessing to do that.

Great.

Okay.

Thanks.

Um point of information.

What's that?

Um I don't know.

Because we didn't I don't think we did that when we heard East Point.

Uh in terms of whether or not they need authorization from East Point Plaza.

Yeah.

It would be how the deeds written.

We do have a copy of the deed because it was submitted with it.

But um Bill is suggesting the property owner that that might not be true.

Okay.

But I think actually in the last instance we had a property owner might have come in and opposed it uh initially, and then we got to a a point of concurrence uh with the applicants.

I think I'd uh uh got to a point.

Fair enough.

Sorry.

Yep.

Good.

Well it's standing motion to continue.

I do want to kind of get into a little bit more discussion on the circulation just to get some sort of direction from the board just so we kind of do that.

Well, we're gonna hear the tr we're gonna get the traffic study scope, and then once once the tr once Mr.

Pernail weighs in on that, um he'll have a um present options on the changes and what's the most optimal uh traffic.

So we we do have a couple alternatives, but it sounds like you want to get the traffic yeah kind of memorialized first.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

And then when once you guys come back, we'll have that um uh Mr.

Pernow's study completed, and then um I'm sure you're you'll have your comment responses in and uh and Google from there, and I'm sure that uh you know we have to rely on our traffic consultants um uh input on that.

So um Ms.

Chair, I move to continue.

Second.

Can I interrupt us real quick?

There is actually one thing we want to talk about.

Um that's the location of the playground.

And this has kind of come up with Jacob so a couple times.

No, the way we have it now, high likelihood of however we kind of orient the circulation on the site, but there's gonna be some sort of dead end on either side.

We have to have a playground, it's a licensing thing with the state.

You know, you have children, they need a spot to play.

There's really, you know, with the building away it is here, there's really only two options to put the playground.

This here, and then there's the front.

And putting it in the front, you know, you kind of preserve this traffic pattern through there.

But I think you'd be sacrificing the great drop-off, you know, system that you could have in the front.

And so we just want to get some, I think, clarity of you know whether you would want to see that over here or over here.

And if you would accept potentially dead ends at the expense of you know a better drop-off location.

I think it's fine where the way it's presented in the plan.

Let's let the traffic consultant present um his findings and and opine on the traffic flow and the parking and whatnot, and then um, but yeah, I don't think the board's gonna um put the uh what the um play area in the front of the building.

So the reason I ask is the architects are working on the interior plans.

And if we start getting it to that, then their schedule gets really really backed up.

So one quick comment on that.

Uh definitely not in the front of the building.

Um, but the side of the building, I understand it would create um a bit of a dead end over there, uh perhaps over where the um the employee parking is.

I don't know how big of a space that is.

I know it's not ideal to have to cross any parking lot with small children.

Um again, it's it's done elsewhere in other daycares in Salem, so it's not impossible, though not necessarily desirable.

Um but I would not be opposed to that if that allows you to meet meet the need and then also help with uh with site flow.

Okay.

Okay, we have a motion to continue in a second.

Um any further discussion.

All in favor.

That's unanimous.

Thanks.

We look forward to uh traffic uh consultants' findings and thank you.

Um public matters before we go to that.

We have um we have two alternate applications that um we can vote in for an appointment.

Um the first one we received is from uh forgive me if I say the last name wrong, Jeremy Gilbo.

Um discussion on that applicant.

Um I guess just uh uh point of clarification.

So my understanding is that currently there's one vacancy open, correct, Jacob?

Uh there's three vacancies.

You can you can appoint up to five uh alternates and you have two right now.

Oh, okay.

Um when I was looking on the website, I thought it said that there was only one open.

And I was confused if we had gotten a letter of resignation from Bev.

Uh no, Bev's term is um yeah, it's up in uh April of this year.

And uh yeah, so she would still be on the board through that period, and then if she wants to get reappointed, she could she could inform us.

But uh one thing I didn't look at until just now is uh we'd want staggered terms, so that'd be one thing that you'd want to consider.

Um so maybe two for three years and and uh yeah, two for three would be fine because you have uh Mr.

Helenek who expires in uh 28, and then these two applicants would uh would expire in 2029.

If if you're willing to make a three-year commitment, uh I would imagine, but uh that would be appropriate.

We put them on for three years, and just an alternate.

I mean you can just not show up, resign, whatever, you know.

Um discussion on uh Jeremy Gilbo as uh um uh for an appointment to as an alternate to the planning board.

Mr.

Chair, I move to appoint Mr.

Gilbo, Jeremy Gilbo, as a planning board alternate for a term of three years.

Second, all those in favor, it's unanimous.

And the second application we receive is from uh Jesse Jean.

Um discussion on this application.

Mr.

Chair, I further move to appoint Mr.

Jesse Jean as a planning board alternate for term of three years.

Second.

All in favor?

That's unanimous.

Welcome.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Well um myself or on the planning director, we'll give you a call when there's uh uh when we need you to sit on the board.

That's usually how it works.

Yeah, yeah.

And then the right obligated to call from all meetings, just like no, no, no, no, no.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

You just have to watch them on streaming.

Yeah, you have to get sworn in.

Jacob.

Uh yes, you'll have to I can connect you with the town clerk because you'll have to get sworn in before you can uh sit on the board.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Thank you.

We appreciate it.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Um public matters.

Uh yeah, the first thing I just wanted to note is that we've got a variety of um of uh scams lately for uh particularly ZBA applicants, but also the for planning board applicants too.

So this is just kind of like a public service announcement, I guess, for uh the public and for specifically applicants before land use boards.

Uh this was uh, you know, so that they're relatively intricate, you know, they they take enough to kind of make it look official.

This is obviously our town seal and they do research uh some information.

So for instance, oftentimes they'll have the uh ZBA chair.

Uh what they do is they'll take uh often some of the uh language from their variants application or their site plan application and insert this in the email.

You'll note that often the the emails are not from a salem and h dot gov address, so we always try to uh make sure that the public is aware to check uh the email address and make sure that it's not or that it is SalemNH.gov.

We also would not email applicants for wire transfers or electronic payments, all application fees are assessed at the time of uh submission, aside from you know, if you have to re- notice a butters, but we're not asking for additional funds like uh like these emails that were sent out.

So you uh uh at USA.com is a pretty standard one.

We found that a lot of other communities have experienced the same thing.

So just wanted to make sure because it's gotten the to the point where a lot of people have called us.

Fortunately, nobody to my knowledge has actually uh you know made payment, but um it's got to the point where people have called me and asked uh for clarification on the payment that I'm requesting.

Um so we just want to make sure that everybody's aware.

We have a memo that we've issued.

Those are gonna go out to all applications.

So when somebody submits a uh plan and board application or a ZBA application, we're gonna give them the memo in turn.

And we're also in the process of putting a banner on our our web pages for uh plan and zone and and then the plan and division page so that you know hopefully everybody's aware of this because specifically last month before the ZBA, just about every application uh was sent a uh a notice.

Uh and then the other thing is that we're we're pretty confident that whoever's doing this is taking it from our website because we post the full application.

We're gonna continue to do that, but we're gonna redact personal information and ask the applicant to do so as well.

Um and then I just thought this was interesting because they did enough research to uh know that we're Salem, but they called us uh the planning commission of Massachusetts and then Kurt Ryder, who I believe is the chair and Salem Mass, uh uh not Mr.

Fioli, uh was erroneously put on here.

But again, they do enough research where they would get some information.

Yeah, it's pretty good.

Um so it's certainly got a lot of people to call us and we want to make sure because it seems like it's gonna continue to happen.

Most uh New Hampshire municipalities of our size are experienced and similar uh activity.

And so the town of Salem does not take wire transfers, Venmo, Google pay Google Play gift cards.

No, certainly not the planning division.

Maybe the finance has got more savvy, but uh planning we you have to submit a check.

So uh it says that in the memo that we will never request electronic uh uh uh payment and that um you'll submit a check uh at time of submission.

Um Mr.

Gross is here, so we'll go to uh to him first.

Um I can find the letter uh uh Tuscan Village has a space adjacent to the uh beer garden that's been vacant and I think maybe it was originally approved as retail, Mr.

Gross and I were discussing it before the meeting, and it's been unoccupied.

Uh you uh permitted for the Festival of Trees to be in that location over the holidays.

And um obviously the holidays are over.

Uh Tuscan is requesting that uh we want to change the name from the original name of Mary Market to corner shop in order to utilize the space for any pop-up events that I may want to h uh host during the winter season until we shift to host our traditional events outdoors.

I currently do not have a set set events schedule for the space as I'd prefer to host events outdoors, but we'll utilize the corner shop if outdoor outdoors is not an option.

Ideally we would like to start hosting outdoor outdoors starting in April to May.

The space can hold no more than 25 vendors at any given time.

We would use the space at most weekly or even once or twice a month.

There'll be no alcohol or food served inside the space and there will be no there will not be any live entertainment in the space either.

So in the past, we haven't issued a uh a CEO for this space.

We allowed them to kind of temporarily occupy for the Mary market.

And I think what this based off this email that I understand is they would like to host temporary events until the spring would be what the building permit would specify.

So initially I was a little bit more uh concerned about it because I thought it was more open-ended and that it was gonna allow them to kind of conduct uh temporary events, you know, uh you know, on a long-term basis.

I think if it's just till the spring, then it is kind of consistent with some of the other temporary events we've allowed.

Um, initially the concern was we don't issued a CEO, we haven't assessed any impact fees, but um, if it's a temporary basis, we have done that in the past.

So was the board okay with them occupying that this space for pop-up events until uh I guess we would say uh till May at this point is is uh I don't have any concerns of okay.

Okay.

So I wanted to make sure because if we issue the CO, I just wanted to ensure we were all on the same page.

So we're gonna put that to March 31st as the end date.

Um probably May 31st.

May 31st.

My M month's confused.

Mr.

Gross, did I have another item for you?

Kent.

It was just that, right?

Oh, yes, sorry.

Um that's gonna take me one second to pull up because I don't think uh but um well, I pulled that up.

The other item I wanted to highlight um quickly, facade improvements at uh 524 South Broadway.

So you improved facade upgrades for uh O'Reilly Auto Parts.

You remember you'll probably recall that Pepboys is uh uh leasing their uh retail floor to O'Reilly's and they're gonna just retain the the bays.

So initially I thought you'd already approve this when it first came in, and then I realized no Pep Boys actually wants to do facade upgrades uh as well as O'Reilly.

So Riley on the left hand side of the sheet you've already approved, and Pepboys would be making some upgrades as well.

Mostly uh they're gonna increase this parapet, it's not gonna be any greater than um you know that maximum height of the building and a couple other uh revisions.

The signage of course is subject to a signed permit, but any concerns with uh their facade improvements as proposed there.

No, it looks a lot better.

Okay.

Um more an asset.

This is uh 224 North Broadway.

So this is uh the location of Border Brew and Deja Brew and uh Chief Walk.

They have a space, they've got a unit there that is I believe it's 740 square feet, and it used to be the ham radio uh shop.

They want to have it occupied by a martial arts studio.

I think the permit or the number I heard was from five to fifteen uh students.

And we've in the past we've had some of those go through the change of use, uh, particularly if they needed a conditional use permit for reduced parking.

I talked to the property manager about that, and uh was pointed to a conditional use permit that was granted in 2019, and the demand for though for that conditional use permit was 198 spaces where only 156 spaces are existing.

A couple things there.

Um it didn't uh I think it accounted for four spaces uh outdoor dining for um for border brew and it counted some of the other place of assembly uses as general retail.

But the big change I think was that border brew uh abandoned their retail operation, and that actually helped their parking demand because retail is one per 200 square feet, one space per 200 square feet, and uh restaurants require a minimum of 25.

So, for instance, Deja Brew uh, even though they have 12 seats requires a minimum of 25 spaces based off of our parking table.

So, anyway, I we I looked at Mr.

Moran's calculations, and my numbers are a little bit different.

I I came up with uh I think it was 198.3 spaces if you don't if you count their previous places of assembly as retail, which is historically what we did in 2019, and those uses haven't changed.

And then if you only account for four uh outdoor seats, or sorry, eight outdoor seats, which is what was initially approved.

The board later during COVID allowed expansion of outdoor seat, and you didn't have that be subject to site plan approval.

Um obviously there's more than eight seats out there.

So if you if you do the math that way, it comes out to 198.3 spaces.

And I wanted to see what the board's thoughts were on it.

It's a 740 square feet square foot space.

It's tough because it results in ultimately one additional parking demand from the prior use, but you know, I wanted to see how the board felt about that.

I've never had an issue parking in there at any time.

Okay.

With the like peak hours with the Chinese food restaurant and Ruerrigo and nothing.

And yoga, the yoga studio, I've never had that in issue parking in there.

Yeah, maybe I might not have been able to park as close as I'd like picking up Chinese food.

Yeah.

I'm not you know, driving around trying to find the space.

Yeah, and that was what actually the board had said, I think during COVID when they came in for the additional seats at Border Brew.

So I I it's a little clunky, but I understand.

I mean, if I'm the applicant, I guess I would say, well, you allowed me to count my place of assembly as retail uh in 2019, and you didn't require me to have additional parking uh in 2020 or 2021 when I added additional seating.

So if you kind of isolate this use, uh it fits under their 2019 calculation, it's technically 0.3 over, but I mean uh so it's also 740 square feet.

Exactly.

Right, yeah.

Yeah, okay.

Um I'm really struggling and at the administrative, we'll talk about that after this, but at the administrative level with some of these more minor ones, and I kind of wanted to maybe talk about that at some point too.

But uh you know, ultimately to have somebody an applicant go through the process for the sake of going through the process for net demand of one space is kind of onerous.

Um and in this instance, I think I talked with Mr.

Moran for like an hour trying to figure out all the different uh tenants in the plaza and and how we've historically calculated it.

Um so if the board's okay with it, I think that makes sense to me.

Yeah, yeah, we're okay with it.

Um sorry, Mr.

Gross.

Uh uh Hanover apartments uh in 2022, the planner board approved the uh second phase of Hanover apartments.

That's building 3,000, um, subject to a parking study being submitted um six months post-occupancy.

They've submitted that.

This was prior to us uh requiring uh the escrow account.

We now require an escrow account so that our third party uh traffic uh consultant can review these rather than me at the staff level.

Uh I did my best to review it, and I think it's reasonable.

They they've they're calculating um, you know, they they did this in January, which I guess one argument could be made is that maybe January is not the peak month, but um they they did the analysis at uh between five, sorry, um I think it's 10 a.m.

and five a.m.

Uh and they did that January, two days in January, and they determined it was one space per occupied dwelling unit.

They also gave a count for per bedroom, that doesn't really interest me too much, but um, but if you look at their parking their occupied parking, it was at the most 205 spaces.

There they have a uh uh availability of 230 326 spaces.

You approved it at a parking ratio of 1.4 spaces per unit, so that one per unit is well below.

And even uh you'll note that they've got uh only 218 of the 230, uh not only, but 213 218 of the 230 uh apartments were occupied at the time of this analysis, so they had 12 vacant units.

But even if you apply the uh one per unit to those 12, you know, they're still well below the 1.4, which you approved.

So just wanted to bring this to your attention, see if you had any concerns.

I the only thing I could think of is maybe that um you know January is not the best month to do a parking analysis, but still sounds like there's plenty of parking out there, even if it was during a piece.

During the study, did they include the number of spaces that are covered with snow?

A lot of them are in the park and garage, so hopefully they're not running into that as much, but um we we are addressing concerns about uh uh snow storage, yes, uh, throughout the community, uh also at uh residential.

You're gonna close that one up.

What's that?

That you're gonna close that uh Hanover Park and study up.

If you're comfortable with it, it seems like it, you know, one per unit, and they're well below their uh their available parking supply there.

So Mr.

Gross would be happy.

I think I've got it now.

Um so you approved this plan in probably 24, actually 25 for rec park.

One thing that's happening is that they're gonna change the color scheme.

I think they had two different color schemes.

Uh this was this color scheme matches the uh the toddler play area.

So the idea was that rather than have kind of I think initially it was maybe yellow and some other colors that they would they would have them be consistent, which I uh agree with.

I think that's a good idea.

Um so change in color scheme, and then the other item it to discuss is that this feature here, so this kind of climbing feature, and then the ladder, they're proposing to eliminate that and replace it with a uh kind of a straight bar with a land in.

And they've also reconfigured the landing, I believe, uh at the top of this slide here.

Uh they've just made it a different dimension.

I think it might have been a square and now it's a uh uh triangle.

And let me pull up the second option or the uh what they're proposing now.

So uh eliminated the climbing feature in the ladder, and then up here is now a triangle as opposed to uh uh square, which is shown here.

So wanted to see if you had any concerns.

The applicant's looking to to purchase the uh equipment because uh they'll be looking for occupancy for the uh remainder of the apartment units in the spring, and you conditioned that this be constructed prior to final occupancy.

So again, uh climb in feature, ladder, and then the land in here will now is proposed to be uh shown here and then here.

Any changes in the other one?

Uh no, not that I've been presented.

No, Mr.

Gris says no.

My reckless five-year-old would have loved the more uh risky option, but I understand why you would go this route.

I have no issue with it.

No concerns from the board?

Nope.

Okay.

All right.

Uh I think I've got a couple more, sorry.

Um I done.

Yeah, you're all set.

Unless you had uh anything else for me.

You're finished.

You don't want to stay?

I I have a generative on the uh presentation.

Uh a couple uh just quick items I wanted to talk to you about uh zoning amendments.

Uh we'd like to present a couple more to you.

One item we kind of touched on earlier was the fact that our permitted use table probably needs to be cleaned up.

If you look at uh these educational institutional uses, to me we have uses that are uh conflicting and probably uh repetitive and redundant.

Um I think this was probably based off of state RSAs at some point because if you look at the state RSA on child care, it's got a variety of different categories and definitions.

But I think from a land use perspective, we probably don't need to make as many distinctions.

I think we would still want to make course a distinction before uh group daycare and uh you know those are the daycares at your home or something like that.

And then but we've got public and parochial school, secondary schools, post-secondary, family daycare.

So so some of them will stay, but I'd like to consolidate many of the others under one use category.

It did lead to some confusion, for instance, when the applicant came in with the daycare uh and uh you know they're only permitted by right in the limited community shopping village, so that's 401 Main Street and then Erma Road and uh 11 uh and we see them in other locations.

We all we also allow child care, so we have a daycare facility and we have a child care, which is only the difference between the two of them.

I think it's really just state RSAs, uh I think.

And then uh I was gonna ask that earlier.

I'm like, I don't understand what the difference is between a daycare and a child care or nursery school.

They probably could have made the if they were they were zoned commercial industrial C the applicant tonight.

So if they were a zoned commercial industrial B, they could maybe have made an argument that they're a child care facility rather than day care facility.

The only thing is is that if you go to CIB, the commercial industrial B district, it limits them to like 50 students.

So it's still they would still need a variance, but either way, I'd like to kind of clean this table up and I think it's a use that we want to facilitate in the appropriate places.

I mean, um, you know, it's uh it's a needed use, so if we're able to kind of clean this up and uh make the process a little clearer for the applicant, I think it'd be a good idea.

Yep.

Please do.

Okay.

I think that's a great idea.

Um I guess just for the uh the larger group, what is the current status update on the zoning update RFP?

Yep, I met with the finance director today, and we're working on posts in the RFQ.

And then we would leave it open probably at least for a month so that we could get submission requirements.

So we are in the process of of posting it.

They'll update the use this use table when they when when they do the they would uh it would you know I mean it depends it's a it's supposed to be a comprehensive update.

So you know we would look at aspects like this as well but I think in the end term it would just gonna clean it up because uh the confusion with that application because I yeah I mean I'd look at this and what I was yeah for variance or something out or uh site plan I'd look at this other like what is the use yeah yeah um yeah um so then I guess to uh to further that um I know when we did the master plan update we had done a subcommittee for the master we made the master plan steering committee um and I imagine that this would probably fall under like this if we did a a subcommittee for like a like a steering committee of the zoning update that it would probably be appointments from the planning board is in the case would it be a subcommittee of the planning so we would probably have a subcommittee to select the consultant and then I don't think I don't think Nashville worked with a subcommittee but I do think that Manchester did but they did later on in the process.

So it's it's something that we could consider I mean I I don't I think that the zoning update is a little bit more technical than the master plan.

So I mean it it's something that probably could be steered by the planning board because you're most familiar with the regulations but we could always have a subcommittee form at some point.

I mean it's I think we're early on in this process I don't know.

I guess the the reason why I'm bringing up is the way we handled it on the master plan steering committee was that the master plan steering committee was the one choosing the consultant um for the whole process.

So if we were to follow that sort of same path then we should be forming a steering committee now if we're posting the RFQ soon that's open for 30 days we would then need to decide who we're going to the planning you should be able to just pick pick the consultant right we we would probably assemble a committee to select it but it would probably in this sense I mean we'd certainly have from my perspective run an RFP for a consultant why do I I understand with the master plan but why just that's gonna update the zoning part of the master plan.

Yeah we could do it with a subcommittee or which is what we did with a master plan but we could also do we would have some committee so it wouldn't be like my decision.

And then we kind of disbanded after that we might have met once more to select no we just met for that I think and then disbanded but um we could form uh you know there wouldn't be just one person selecting it I guess so one of the things to point out was that the master plan we focused on specific areas in town and the zoning um update would be comprehensive like through the entire town right that we would have to consider so I think it's a far larger scope um and it would probably involve community feedback in a way that we weren't so focused on during the master plan process because the master plan process was more focused and it was originally holistically kind of the whole town just us saying like okay where do we want to focus and once we focus we stayed in that one area and this would stay the entire town the whole time.

So I think it would involve more community input.

We get community input to do that to do a zoning ordinance update they they have in so Manchester did a zone in Palooza so we would still do public outreach events they in Manchester Nashville they were led mostly by the consultant and they did a couple outreach but I think the zoning ordinance from my from my perspective I think it's probably something more stared by this board just because you know there's other committees in this town that probably aren't as familiar with the zoning ordinance to begin with.

I think for the master plan it was good to have you know a various perspectives on you know how we want to steer the direction of the community but I I think from the zoning standpoint you know I I think the planning board I kind of see as the steering committee and then we could we could uh you know form a committee specific that's what Manchester did initially was planning board led and then later on in the process they had a you know steering committee to kind of finalize the um details I guess if that makes sense but so yeah I and I I can see I can see the public input because first of all you're talking about changing the zoning laws based on the master plan and any time we change the zoning law you have to have some type of public hearing anyway.

community but I I think from the zoning standpoint you know I I think the planning board I kind of see as the steering committee and then we could we could uh you know form a committee specific that's what Manchester did initially it was planning board led and then later on in the process they had uh you know steering committee to kind of finalize the um details I guess if that makes sense but so yeah I and I can see I can see the public input because first of all you're talking about changing the zoning laws based on the uh master plan and any time it changes zoning law you have to have some type of public hearing anyway so that so that's gonna end up happening and I'm probably gonna ask the town council what is their opinion of who's gonna deal with this also since even though we discuss those zoning changes they are the authority to change those zoning laws.

So you're the town council right you should be in I will go ahead and yeah thanks um I will ask for their input and see what what the guidance is going to be.

Sure.

One of the worth mentioning is that the master plan steering process took about a year and a half and I can't imagine the full blown zoning rewrite to be any shorter of a process.

Oh no I don't think so you know so it just worth throwing out there that you know I don't know how many if it's gonna require us to have um you know special meetings outside of what we currently need if you know if it's going to be too long of a presentation or what have you um it's a lot of extra work for an entire board that's already established that already has um work to do that long before no I'm just I'm I'm imagining that it's it's quite a bit and whoever ends up being appointed to that is going to have to have some type of longevity because you don't want to get halfway through and then change bodies out.

Right.

It you know because now you change in directions because it changes somebody's the opinions change it.

Right.

So that's where I I got the same thought from you so it's that's really going to be important.

What is the timeline Jacob?

Yeah so I will say that uh Manchester and Nashville did take probably multi years I think Nash was started during COVID so that well actually they adopted their master plan during COVID and they didn't approve their master their rewrite I think until 2025.

They also kind of they get a lot of um housing champion funds throughout so they use those funds to supplement their uh their process before they updated it they'll absolutely be uh public outreach event I mean so this is Manchester's schedule and they they did a lot to um have public outreach you know they met this is July 10th 13th 17th 27th 31st but and they met in Manchester in different areas of the community uh fortunately we're not quite as large but uh I I just don't know that the steering committee would be I we could talk more about it I just don't think it should it would make as much sense to have it comprised of the same members of the master plan steering committee just because it doesn't have to be the same members but I'm I'm just thinking a dedicated committee in general is probably better than putting it on this whole board though I do agree with you that this board knows the zoning probably better but yeah okay this might do sense when is the RFP gonna be issued the hope would be to I could get it to finance by the end of the week and then we could get it posted shortly so and how long does that run?

We probably keep it open for at least a month uh to try to get you know as many applicants as we could get and then what you'll you were finance we'll do a short list and then we'll opine on that then we would s of assemble a committee to select to review the RFQ and select it.

So in that instance it could be the planning board I mean we could we could talk more about that but I think it you could do that staff level I think we certainly want representation probably from a you know at least a planning board member town council member I would imagine would make sense because all gun oh sounds like she's the volunteer yeah yeah yeah not um the other uh so we that we'll work on that we'll make sure that gets posted uh the other item to uh discuss on for zoning amendments is personal service uses we had a uh spa that wanted to open in the business office district so along Main Street and those actually aren't permitted by right even though I think there are some on Main Street so I just wanted to ask the uh board if you think that it's reasonable to open up along the uh main street corridor so from uh 28 on either side is kind of business office one and two and it runs uh towards the historic district not quite to the historic district so that you could have like a spa hairdresser um you know we're seeing more uh kind of beauty oriented stuff uh that I'm not as familiar with but that I review the permits for it's no that's something why not okay yeah that's the no issue oh I restrict it um this is uh we talked about this a lot so I want to make sure that we get this in the books uh I think at one point we even posted it but the cigar bars and Kennels we were gonna have a proximity prohibition from residential districts um if I remember correctly when we when we went to review this um I think the attorney had some concerns about um how we defined uh which is an aw shown on this but how we defined uh music I think we have music and dancing something that effect for um for suggestions

Uh I think at one point we even posted it, but the cigar bars and kennels, we were gonna have a proximity prohibition from residential districts.

Um if I remember correctly when we when we went to review this, um I think the attorney had some concerns about um how we defined uh which is an aw show on this, but how we defined uh music.

I think we have music and dancing, something that effect for um for cigar bars.

But are you comfortable kind of with it as presented if the attorney's okay with it?

I mean 750 square feet, 750 linear feet from any residential rural garden apartment manufactured housing or recreational district.

Same for kennels as well.

I don't think that's far enough, to be honest with you, for both cigar and a kennel.

I mean, if you've ever been near a kennel, freaking s noise is horrible.

And 750 feet is not far.

Cigar bar the same thing, and I'm a cigar guy, but I I'm telling you, it's just you know, even with you know, you go to two guys, right, and they have all kinds of filters and to to mitigate the the the odor coming out.

My niece lives in that housing development right, you know, behind it, but it's probably a quarter mile away, and you still smell it.

Wow.

Uh what is the uh where does that 750 feet come from?

Um I think it is uh far dimension that we use uh for other I think it might be sexually oriented businesses, so I think is maybe the proximity uh prohibition we have for that.

For gas stations, we have 1200 feet, but that that's 1200 feet from another gas station, and the idea there was to not you know have gas stations all over the place.

But um but I think that's what 750 feet comes from.

So um I mean we could I could pull up map geo just to get a sense.

Well, I can do that another time if you'd like, but just for you to get a sense of how far that distance is.

But well, you're pulling that up.

Um is the definition of kennel is that a state RSA or is that a town definition?

Uh references.

Kennel is a town definition.

Okay.

Yeah, we probably yeah, we probably can't change it right now because we're in court uh on it.

But um Yeah, that's what I was wondering.

Um just so if you put the zone in overlay, you know, so this would be residential.

So 700, it would probably prohibit it because this gets pretty narrow, uh anything north of Main Street.

So let me just see.

So at well, it'd be 700, the parcel can't be 750 feet.

So this is obviously immediately touching.

So, you know, this whole area is 485 feet, so you couldn't have a cigar bar pretty much in the majority of the area north of Main Street.

Uh you could have them down this way.

Uh but you know, it actually 750 feet would probably actually limit the ability to have them in the majority of locations.

Because our commercial industrial district is so narrow.

Um I wanted to talk to you about this one.

So the general rule of thumb is that if variances are routinely granted by the ZBA that you should take a look at your ordinance.

And um so the the ZBA is granted now, I think at least four uh oversized ADUs ranging from what are they doing with these egregious decisions?

The state, the state limits limited it to the state put a law out for 950 feet.

Why are they granting variances on this?

There's no hardship on having an ADU.

Nothing.

There's zero hardship.

Some of these were done before the state law, but I I don't disagree.

Yeah.

I just I wanted to raise it or bring it to your attention because um, you know, obviously they've they've been amenable, and of course the ZBA is not really supposed to be precedent set in the board, and they're supposed to they look at each application individually, so you know they did make a determination, all the decisions were split decisions up until the most recent one.

That was uh earlier this month.

But um, you know, I guess I wanted to bring it.

I I did an analysis or we did analysis of other uh comparative size communities, which I don't know.

Uh and the only ones that really exceed the 950 square feet, which is like you said in the state RSA and which is in our ordinance is Bedford uh in Merrimax, so Bedford's at a thousand square feet and Merrimax at a thousand square feet as well.

Um everybody restricts it to two bedrooms.

Chair on this one so uh I think we just keep it with the state law I mean the zoning board's just gonna keep granted variances no matter what it's I don't think there's just vote to do whatever it should just abolish the zoning board.

Well the zoning board is supposed to be considering um hardship not financial hardship yeah it's a hardship of the property it's a hardship of you know of other factors and unfortunately this town seems to just go along with everything.

Yeah I mean the initial dimension I was you know thought we could consider potentially but I don't think we'll go that route would be like 1200 square feet.

But again I guess you'd have to realize that this is a two bedroom right I mean so there uh there's got to be why because then the zoning board's just gonna grant it for 1800, 1400, 1500, 1300 why 1200 so I mean seven what what is our ordinance currently 900?

Uh 950 which is the maximum allowed under the state RSA I build 950 square foot two bedrooms all the time and it's of it's the standard size.

It's very comfortable there's no reason why yeah I mean 1800 is large and the other thing to consider would be what's a house.

Yeah what's on coming yeah I mean if I built yeah um the other thing to consider some communities do a percentage but that gets a little confusing too so like for instance the 1800 square foot is attached to like a three thousand square foot house but it's also on a like full blown compound.

Yeah so it's a massive lot and a full compound.

Yeah that one was a little interesting because they were just shy of the frontage for a duplex and they had eight acres.

So that one's like you know that one uh they're they were pretty close to require uh required frontage and certainly had lot area for a duplex but uh the other ones were smaller lots uh you know with not uh as much area or frontage but Jacob the Millville Street one is that uh uh like a three or four car garage and they're putting an in-law or an ADU on the second floor is that uh it's a two-car garage I think but they do have a high bay they're gonna put a R V I think in it and then um so it is a large garage and then they're gonna finish the area and that was that was one of the things they presented to the ZBA was that um they just wanted to finish the you know they said we wanted to finish the area above the existing garage which was constructed uh previous prior yeah the the because they that was like June when they started building the structure of last year.

Yeah and then the the log passed in July so I think they were interested in um you know exploring space that already exists a detached garage yeah I don't know what is the board think do we need to update the um our the limit on the ADU square footage and the ordinance no I don't think so okay if we can put in there that the zoning board is not allowed to vary beyond ten square feet greater than whatever they're gonna do anyway.

There that actually exists in the ordinance believe it or not.

Well it says that variances shall be contrary to the spirit of this chapter um but there's state there's case not to get off the topic but there's case law that you can't insulate your ordinance and tell someone they can't seek a variance from a regulation but I just wanted to bring it to your attention I I get people who come into the counter and I tell them 950 square feet and then variances are granted for larger amounts.

So I just wanted uh as a courtesy to you know ask the question and see what the thoughts were what if we look at it a different way and we took a look at the ordinance for a duplex.

And then when they came in for something like this and say no you're not getting an ADU but you can do a duplex instead.

To that wasn't there one that just went before I could just one I just watched the other night at the ZBA that they were talking about a uh duplex on um Atkinson Road.

Yeah that's an existing duplex so what they were doing there was they were subdividing out uh a conforming single family lot but it was gonna make the residual lot for the duplex undersized you need five acres.

So I mean that is one I mean you it you could look at I feel like that kind of plays into it too is like uh how are we treating duplexes in general and like why can't like an ADU should be nine hundred and fifty square feet but if it's more than that perhaps it's considered a duplex.

Just pave the whole town but if it if it's considered a duplex would that require a subdivision or no?

No well no you can have a if you wanted to convert your property to duplex you could do that.

You would need a variance if you don't have lot area um but I mean so we require two acres in the rural district for a single family require five acres for a duplex you know I guess you could make it you know four but I don't know how much that helps people really a lot of people looking at ADUs we look at duplexes.

Yeah, a lot of people are uh That's I say.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's the is you know, and and try to get people to do duplexes instead of doing Yeah.

A lot of people prefer the ADUs because there's an owner occupancy requirement.

And I don't know what the board feels about that.

But I mean that that was one of these applications.

Uh I advise them to seek a duplex because I didn't really think it w was an ADU because it was just about almost the same size as it's kind of proportionate to the existing dwelling.

I mean how how hard how easy or how difficult is it to enforce if someone has an ADU and it's not owner occupied.

It's what you can't impossible.

It's impossible.

Right.

You you tell them no you can't do that, and they're like, okay.

Yeah.

And it's rented out anyway.

Doesn't matter.

Like so I think you're right.

We should probably go in the direction of looking at uh duplexes.

I mean uh a lot of people choosing this one, it's actually cheaper to do this way, of course, because you're gonna talk about storage water, yeah, utility.

Stuff like like utilities.

But if we take a look at the duplex and take a look at that, and maybe it does steer some of this way because really what we're looking at here, we are looking at duplexes, except for there's no firewall in between them.

Right.

When you say look at duplex, you mean lot area and frontage.

Is that what you're doing?

And maybe people get steered to doing that.

Maybe we like really look at like what it maybe it's maybe it's definitions, maybe it's our requirements, but like what is the difference between an ADU and a duplex?

And because it it seems as though those lines are being grayed with these variances being granted.

Yeah, yeah, it's owner occupancy, it's um uh that's that's a big one really is the owner occupancy.

Aside from that, it's 950 square feet, so unless you get a variance.

Um you can't really enforce owner occupancy.

You used to need to have a common.

If you remove that, not saying we should, but I'm just saying like hypothetically speaking, you remove that.

What's the difference between an ADU and a duplex?

Nothing.

Nothing.

Yeah.

Except for the services.

That's it.

Yeah, and the fact that there's a firewall, which is well.

Yeah.

I think the growth in this is gonna be in detached ADUs anyway.

It's not gonna be an attached because that's what the law really made the difference for statewide and and uh you know, because of setbacks and everything else, if it can be detached, it gives a lot more people the option to add the housing or before they had they were limited if you didn't have a way to attach it to the existing structure based on how everything was laid out.

So that's not really what we're seeing here though.

No, the size of the most of this is before.

I expected a lot more, like you said, detached stuff being done, but as far as I know, we haven't had a rise in building permits on those yet.

Uh we probably issued maybe two or three of uh the detached units now.

Yeah, but people are interested.

Um, sometimes when they learn some of the other limited factors, they're not as interested, I guess.

You know, I mean, once they realize that there's still a process, I guess, and that it's not that you can just put uh you know an ADU.

Yeah, yeah.

Uh and most of the time it is an administrative process.

We have some that are going through an administrative process where they just came in, they met the setbacks and um, you know, everything else.

Uh we have a deed restriction.

We used to do probably a better job informing uh enforcing owner occupancy because we used to keep the residence lists and they wouldn't uh register a vehicle to somebody who uh was at a unit that's not owner occupied, but we'd no longer do that.

So I don't know.

I mean I I think that the I think allowing duplexes uh more leniency for duplexes probably has uh the ability to change the character of an area more so than increasing the area of uh of an ADU.

But um I see that as a bigger bigger lift than telling someone you can build a twelve hundred square foot ADU.

Um but well I think I've got some direction uh on this one.

I'm glad you do because I don't.

Yeah.

Um and then the last one I don't really have a slide for, but it's uh House Bill 631 maybe, but essentially it requires municipalities to allow multi-family or mixed use development in all commercially zoned uh areas of the community.

So that's gonna be effective in July of this year.

So uh my hope was to kind of workshop some of it and come back to you uh, you know, w uh with what some other communities how how some other communities have approached it and see how we want to handle it.

Is do we know if there's been any sort of bills to overturn that?

I don't know if I've seen any, but I know there was talk about it.

Not yet that I know of.

Yeah, I haven't no following some legislation.

There's legislation uh uh to eliminate the housing champion uh status.

Um so I'm following that, and there's a couple other ones too that are kind of out there, but yeah, okay.

Cool.

I wonder why somebody would want to overturn in a authoritarian bill.

Um aside from that, I think that's all I've I've got for uh public matters.

Uh we talked with the chair uh earlier.

We didn't get any submission requirements for our February 24th uh meeting, so we'll have another night off, I think, for the second meeting in February, and then we won't meet again until March twelfth, which is a Thursday because the town meeting.

Wow.

Okay.

Is that it?

That's it.

Excellent.

Second.