Good morning, everyone.

I'd like to call the meeting to order for Friday, June the 26, 2020, 2026 at 905.

Roll call, please.

Davis.

Here.

Garcia.

Here.

Regard.

Here.

Spiller.

Here.

Fullerton.

Pollock.

Here.

Speeds.

Vasquez.

Here.

We have a quorum.

Translation services, please.

Thank you.

But those are necessitan servicios de interpretación in espanhol.

In the edificio in the current este, tenemos services donde podemos traducir con auriculares.

Muchas gracias.

Thank you.

At this time, the compliance and technical advisory board is an advisory board appointed by the city council.

I am Juanita Sepulveda, Chairwoman, and the Vice Chair is Jason Vasquez.

It is the function of the board to advise the city manager and all relevant city departments concerning certain applications for permits for properties in the historic district and landmarks.

And consider in considering whether to recommend approval or disapproval of an application for certificate of appropriateness.

The board shall be guided by the city's unified development code and design guidelines and standards that have been adopted by the city council.

An appeal of a decision by an administrative office can be filed in accordance with the city's unified development code.

If anyone present wishes to speak in favor or in opposition to an item on today's agenda, please sign up on the public comment sheet.

It is not necessary to sign up if you are the owner, owner of or representative for a project on the agenda.

You will be called on as the case is called.

Case representatives will be given no more than 15 minutes to present their case with an additional two minutes to respond to public comments.

Speakers for or opposed to a case will be limited to two minutes each.

Speakers may also sign up to yield their two minutes to another speaker who has signed up.

Anyone who is yielding their time must be present at the time the speaker is called upon.

Speakers will be called upon in the order in which they are signed up.

Following public testimony, any commissioner may call upon any speaker to respond to further questions.

Approval by the board does not take the place of any type of permit.

Permits must be obtained for all work.

Certificates of appropriateness for work approved by the board will be emailed to you within 10 days.

No work of any type is to be started without obtaining the appropriate city permits after a certificate of appropriate appropriateness has been issued by the Office of Historic Preservation.

At this time, please silence all cell phones and thank you for being here.

At this time, do we have any staff announcements?

Do not good morning, everyone.

Um we just need approval for meeting minutes from May 22nd.

At this time, I'll entertain a motion.

Second.

Currently there is a motion to accept the minutes from our previous meet uh meeting.

May I have a roll call vote, please?

Davis, aye.

Garcia, aye.

Regard, aye.

Spiller.

Aye.

Pollock.

Aye.

And Sepulveda.

Aye.

Motion carries.

Um at this point, we can bring our attention to the screen.

We have a very short agenda today.

Um we have one item on consent.

You can see it there.

Um, I don't believe we have any public comments or in-person speakers for for any items, um, much less items on consent.

Um, so at this time you can take up that item.

I move to approve the consented agenda.

Second it.

Currently, there's a motion to accept uh consent consent item on the agenda.

I'll take roll call vote, please.

Davis, aye.

Garcia, aye.

Regard?

Aye.

Spiller.

Aye.

Pollock.

Aye.

And subulva.

Aye.

Motion carries.

At this time we'll address items on the agenda for review.

Good morning, commissioners.

This is CTAB Case 2026.

Address 322 Lay Street.

The applicant is requesting a certificate of appropriateness for approval too.

One, install a four-foot tall steel post and wire front yard fence featuring a pedestrian gate and two driveway gates at the front of the property.

And two, install a concrete ribbon driveway at the northeast side of the property in front of the primary structure.

Staff recommends approval of item one based on findings B, C and D with the following stipulations.

One that the fence feature four by four solid wood posts, that the fence does not exceed four feet in height at any portion of the final installation.

Three, that only one driveway gate be installed along the western side of the property and be set behind the front facade plane of the house.

Staff does not recommend approval of item two based on finding E.

Staff recommends the applicant utilize the existing driveway on the western side of the property.

And I do believe that the homeowners are here.

Alia and Mr.

Chessler.

So if you guys would like to come up to the podium and introduce yourselves, you'll have 2012 minutes to present your request.

And then I can go through your okay, perfect.

Matthew Chessler.

Any questions to start off that we can answer?

Okay, push.

If you'll speak directly to the mic and then present your information, and then we'll address questions afterwards.

Yes.

Do I need a pushback?

It's on, right?

Okay.

Um yes.

So currently there is a gravel driveway where we are requesting the ribbon driveway to be installed.

Um the property belonged to my father before.

Um it's a little overgrown and kind of hard to see, but you can see the existence of it.

There is an entry on the sidewalk as well, um, allowing for a vehicle to be parked there, which my dad would park a vehicle there, since um there is a detached living in the back as well.

Um, however, uh due to the way the piping is the property water line and the sidewalk water line.

Somewhere along the way, there's uh kind of like a right hook, um, right turn for the piping, and it would lead to a lot of leaks when he would park there.

Um, something that he had to frequently get repaired.

And so the ribbon drive we were requesting is just to stabilize and provide support for the ground and underlying water lines.

Um, and then we do have a family.

Um we have a two-year-old and a dog, and so the fence is just to provide security and assurance for both our family and our pets and those who walk the street.

Um we are requesting to put in a fence like this, which is across the street to the left, one house, I guess diagonal is a better word to use.

Um, so it would match existing um fences and entryways that are currently on the block already.

Um, we would just like to enclose both driveways.

They have the ribbon driveway there, um, and the gate for pedestrian would just be for easier access to our front door as well.

Um so it's just functionality for our home.

There are some houses in the neighborhood that do meet the standards.

Most of them have been just um uh commercial people that flip houses and they're typically used as Airbnbs, and so it's not the functionality of a home that's lived in as most people who have fences, um, we're more ordinary owner.

Um, yeah, we're just really requesting that fence for you know our own protection privacy um staff our own and we of course we want to make it um as aesthetically pleasing as possible um and not detract from the historic uhness of the home.

Um, but that you know, in the argument that um many of the houses on that block already do have um fences of the same type and to their sidewalks as well with the double gates.

We're all willing to compromise.

Understood.

So it th well, first of all, thank you for being here and appreciate you taking the time and following our regulations, especially in the historic district.

So for that, we appreciate it.

At this time, I'm gonna go ahead and open the floor to my right to ask some of my colleagues if they have any questions.

Uh uh my question is uh the fence to staff recommends approval of the fence, so we really don't have a problem with that, but the issue here is the driveway, and you hadn't mentioned any reason or or any support for why you went to driveway.

Um, well, personally I think to driveway would match more the aesthetic of the already established fences in the neighborhood.

Um the to the sidewalk allows us to put uh sliding gate in, prefer an automatic one versus a singing a swinging one, um, which would we just want to prevent accidents and not hitting stuff or um being able to functionally have something that's meets our needs better, is there anyone else?

I actually have a couple.

Um looking in your diagram, the front house, is that the one that you reside in or do you reside on the on the second one?

Oh we reside in the front.

My mother lives in the back.

Okay, so there's two actual residencies there.

Yes.

Okay.

And on the first one, if you go to this the right there.

Right there, Adrian.

On the driveway, on the regulations, the only reason I'm asking is because one, I do appreciate that you're here.

But in some of the compliances with the updated and most current ones, they do it for the safety because of where it's supposed to be positioned.

And I do understand.

I can I can understand that, but they do it with being flush of the building.

The other thing too with your home on the originality.

See how you have the front.

Have you taken a look on how you're addressing that?

Because you're too talking about adding an additional parking to the front, but I don't see as I was researching in some of the areas where the fence is completely flush up to the driveway.

But it there's also um I believe in what is it, the landscaping.

There's some in compliance in with the landscaping too that we have to be concerned with, especially since it isn't a in a historic district.

Have you those are some of the things we have to take into consideration?

The other thing, one more thing, and driveway, okay.

The other thing too, on the gates, you know, they they're offering the wood, right?

And I understand with the metal, right?

Being able to slide, but some of these things that were recently updated.

So have you taken a look at that only because of compliance?

That's what I'm asking.

Have you ever have you been able to review that and discuss it with the department?

Just to make sure that, like you said, we want to be able to do the compromising so that way one we offer the safety that you want for your families.

Because that is going to be the top priority.

But the other thing, too, we also have an obligation with compliance for history.

Is that something you've already addressed to be able to make those amendments?

Yes, madam chair.

So we've had a conversation in which um, you know, of course, we discussed our guidelines and our staff position in terms of uh for one, you know, of course it's a two-part request, right?

So one is the front yard fence with the driveway gates.

We don't have an issue with the front yard fence in general, but um we feel, you know, based on um precedent as well as our guidelines, that a um, you know, that the fence would be more appropriate if it has uh wooden posts as opposed to metal posts.

So the design that they're proposing, and I'll just go to it since we have it right here, is something like this, which is um it's a house that's a few streets down from them.

And this, so again, so this right here is is a fence that you know um there have been approvals for in the past, but when it's not a traditional wrought iron gate, when it's uh a bit more of a steel mesh panel gate, um, you know, it starts to kind of go towards the cattle panel fence, even if we wouldn't necessarily consider this uh to be one.

So um for this kind of fence, our our design recommendation is uh wood posts.

So that's that's the first thing considering the front yard fence.

Now the second part of that first request, of course, are the two driveway gates, right?

And so if I were to go to again that same property, this house, um, and as far as I can tell, this this gate has been there since at least 2012 when our guidelines were adopted.

So this this gate's pretty old.

Um the applicant is requesting a driveway gate that's again right at the apron, or in other words, right at the sidewalk.

Now, our fence policy guide states that any uh new uh driveway gate should be at the plane of the house.

So if you guys are looking at the screen, you know, it would be back here.

That's where our policy guide uh says a driveway gate is appropriate.

So the applicant is requesting two gates, both at the front of the property line, in other words, right at the sidewalks or the driveway aprons.

One on their existing driveway to essentially mirror this kind of gate, and then the second one would be for, and if I'll just go really quickly to the um, I'll go to this this one right here.

So they have a second uh driveway apron, and they're requesting again.

That's that second request to replace this gravel here with a ribbon driveway, a concrete ribbon driveway.

Now, our guidelines would say, you know, this house already has uh one uh driveway that adheres to historic guidelines, it's 10 feet wide.

Um, and this other driveway right here, uh, should it be approved, you know, for us as staff, we view that as a non-conforming driveway where it would be in front of the house, and then of course it would be a second driveway for the for the property, which is not um it's not something there's much precedent for, it's not something that's very consistent with the development pattern.

So, you know, for us our recommendation, and I'll go to their site plan here, is to have a front yard fence with just a pedestrian gate in this section, in which the steel panels are fine, but we we recommend wooden posts, and then for one driveway gate right at the front plane of the house where I'm I'm drawing that second uh line.

So um I I hope that clarifies the request as well as our staff position, and um and and the applicant and I you know, we've had several conversations about it.

So um, so they they know the staff position, but of course, um this is the request that they're presenting before you all.

Adrian, I'm gonna restate that one more time.

A pedestrian gate, pretty much um directly in front of the doorway, the gate flush with the house edging but the gate can another fencing can go all the way through the front along the driveway to the house is that correct correct so a fence in this section so right here and then of course on the front with one pedestrian gate um again that that adheres to our policy guide our fence policy guide and um and and it's totally fine again we that's very appropriate um you know that we've approved in the past so the issue is not with this fence or with um you know or with the pedestrian gate the pedestrian gates are absolutely fine right at the property line where the sidewalk is it's only the the driveway gates the for the existing driveway as well as for the proposed and that is what's currently because I was reading the regulations last night that is what's currently as updated as of 2012 I believe that's correct.

Yes so there's two there's two guide sets of guidelines that are appropriate to um discuss because they're the two applicable ones so of course our main historic and design guidelines those are the ones that were adopted by city council in 2012.

So that's of course where our citations begin you know where everything kind of starts and then from there we have a um a second um supplementary policy guide specifically related to fencing and that one was adopted I believe in 2022 so that one is the one that has um a very specific site plan that um dictates that any new driveway gate should be located at the front plane of the house right here.

Okay I just need a clarification just make sure because that was one of the concerns I was reviewing.

Okay.

Are there any other questions for my panel?

Just a moment.

I just had a a couple so with the fence are you guys opposed to wood posts for some reason or um we were just going raw iron because that's more structurally sound for the type of gate for the driveway that we prefer um because the but if we can make it work with wood posts we would be perfectly fine doing that.

Well that's what I'm asking does a fence operate the same way whether the posts are is there any reason it has to be steel for some um it's just uh for longevity and so it's like an aesthetic and just steel lasts longer than wood yeah but the wood can hold up if if we can make the engineering speaking it wouldn't know but um if wood works for us we have no issue with the wood um it's just the raw iron is what we notice the most throughout the neighborhood so it's why we requested that because it's across the street multiple houses on the same block um and it just seemed like longevity as you said that fence has been there for quite a while and it's still standing versus like the wooden post fence a lot of them are leaning um and they're not as old as that raw iron um fence um but we don't need both driveways it's just what has how the home has been functionally used with my father living there um just because there is that second living home and so he would park in the front so that there could be access directly to the rear house um yeah without walking because it's like just that long rightway um and that's why he had that developed and so we were just trying to um just fortify it so that we don't run into the issue with leaks but we can make it work with just the one fence um if that is a compromise that we can come to is just doing the one fence to the sidewalk so that it runs in line with it and um because you can't do the sliding one because of the houses just the way the driveways are.

It's 10 feet right about and and then you have like an extra two feet that are the actual property before you five feet probably between the driveway and the next house.

Um and if we're and we also have a gas meter right at our house.

I don't know if you can see that in the pictures, it's like right on the corner of the front property, um, like behind that tree.

So it's the electrical boxes and then on the floor is also the gas meter.

So we we would run into some trouble of s of putting stocks or the posts thinking.

Um the gas meter is located directly on the corner of the house.

Um so we would have to figure out a way to work around that.

And um because we're eliminating not being able to fortify the driveway that has been used on the front left of the house, um, a swinging door would also um limit how much you can't park a car right up to the fence line or on the other side because that swinging door is gonna need some clearance since it is 10 feet wide.

Um so we're taking away from we're taking away more parking space, and since there is two living um spaces on the property, we're just trying to optimize and functionally use the available space better.

But if we could do enclose not the second the driveway to the left of the house and just do a pedestrian gate and the gate to the street that matches the rest on the property, we would be very happy with that just because we have do have that gas meter um at the property at the house, and then the swinging door would also take away more parking space.

And most families, I mean, we have two vehicles.

My mom has one, and you know, if our daughter ever gets if we live there and our daughter drives, you know, it's four typically homes have anywhere from four to five houses and there's two houses.

So we're just trying to optimize the use of this new home.

Understood.

Any other questions?

Go ahead.

No more questions.

I'd like to make a motion.

Go ahead.

Um, I'd like to make a motion that we support staff's recommendations for approval of item one with the stipulations that are noted that the fence feature four by four solid wood posts, that it not exceed four feet in height at any portion of final installation, that only one driveway gate be installed along the western side of the proper property and be set back behind the plane of the house, and then an updated site plan should be submitted to staff showing the fence and gates adhere to all stipulation uh issuance of a and an issuance of a certificate of appropriateness, and that um item two is not given approval based on finding E.

And that um the staff recommends the applicant utilize the east driveway on the western the I can't read it, it's utilize the driveway on the west existing, I guess, driveway on the western side of the property.

Do I have a second?

Did we skip the discussion portion?

That's that's what we were doing.

The discussion part one of questions and things.

Do we have yeah, we have to we have to have a second first?

Okay, go ahead.

Do you have a question?

You have a discussion.

We have uh a second.

Second.

Go ahead and you have a discussion.

Uh yeah, I just um I I guess maybe at the photos.

It looks like there's really not a way to put the gate at the corner right there without a lot of trouble or like kind of blocking access to those key features.

Um and in looking at the other submitted photos, it looks like there are a lot that come up to the driveway.

And I think functionally in a home that has two uh separate homes on the same lot.

Um right am I right that this comes up to the uh sidewalk in a in a on a lot that has functionally two homes and was built that way or that's how it is uh it seems like it would create a lot of problems if there has to be a a swinging gate at the facade of the house and I do think it would very much like restrict usability.

I understand what you're saying.

However we are called to uphold the regulations that the city actually holds that has been placed not only initially established in 2012 but also updated in 2022.

Because once we start deviating from those the historical guidelines that were actually edited and upgraded to what's current and what's in place including the architectural of the landscape and that can be complied and made adjustments to those and understand the functionality but that's why we're here as a historical society that once we start deviating from what the historical society has established and has to maintain in compliance with what we've been dictated to be able to do from the city council at what point do we not uphold what we've been instructed to do.

Functionality I understand and there are able to be amendments and deviations made to it.

But the also think other things we have to take into consideration is that we also have to take consideration what's currently in place.

Things were amended back in 2012 and 2022 and things that were not initially there and were grandfathered in have to be reconsidered but when we make edits in order to compliance that's what we're actually called to uphold so I think I you know that we are allowed to allow variances when they're well supported and I think that's the difference like it's not someone coming in saying well my only support of putting this fence back here behind the facade is aesthetic or you know up to the driveway up to the sidewalk is that I want to control all the space I own and I just want to keep people out or it's a better looking or anything else it's a it's a real functional use you know everything was built and so there I I do think that variance is that this is what this body is is available for and I think this is a good support of functionality in your home.

Go ahead ma'am I would just like to um say that this kind of home arrangement is not unusual to the neighborhood that you have a detached like Casita or mother in law's quarters or accessory dwelling or whatever you want to call it in the back.

This is and if you look at the aerial view you'll see other examples of that um in the neighborhood here so I would just say that it's not a unique situation that it does come back to um functionality on the site and much as I can sympathize with that idea that you want it to work better for everybody who's occupying the property um this arrangement works just fine because somebody goes along the driveway parks in the back and then goes to that detached dwelling um and that is traditionally kind of how this works right that actually two cars could pack potentially park back there or somebody parks on the street.

I think that there could be a reasonable solution with a swinging gate maybe that has its support or hinge on the outside of the driveway so it doesn't really affect uh utility uh meters as much so I just don't really see this as a situation where there should be a variance.

I'd go ahead.

I'm glad you brought it up that it's not unique because you're right, it's not.

Um and my argument would be that most if not all of the houses that do have that second living space do have the fence and gate up to the sidewalk.

So it wouldn't be any different than what's already there.

So well no the difference my point is what what I'm trying to make is we're we're not here to cause problems but if the purpose of it is to match the rest of the neighborhood then that's what we're trying to work towards in that regard.

So for us to do it that way we would be then the unique one in the neighborhood.

Alright and I would respond to that that it would appear that given some of the research at least of the examples that were pointed out here that those were actually put in place prior to the historic designation which means that when a neighborhood becomes historic it's looked at for characteristics of that historic time period and these gates would not have been one of those to say because it was put in some time prior to 2012 doesn't mean that it's now historic.

So I'm just kind of referencing back to the characteristics of the original neighborhood and how it doesn't comply with those I mean I you make a good argument and unfortunately then regulations have changed in terms of the neighborhood you live in.

And I will also say and this is kind of an aside I really appreciate that you were looking at putting in a ribbon driveway on the other side because that is actually histor uh characteristic of the neighborhood so in that regard um I appreciate your effort there but when it comes to the gate I just have have to say I mean traditionally there wouldn't have been uh necessarily a gate or or a fence in the front yard.

Um well just to argue as Adrian said in the past committees have approved fences to the driveway so um as a Davis said at the end of the day it's it's y'all's decisions the guidelines are there to follow but exceptions can be made um I have to go straight to work after this but I mean I do food code and there's always an exception for a rule that exists and compromise is always available and that's really the reason we're here um if we can't do the ribbon driveway then we understand um we're just trying to obtain a compromise um between what we requested and what is allowed and what has been also approved in the past that deviates from ordinance um and uh we understand that it may not be historic in this sense but um as my husband stated there are a lot of properties that do have it and we would be the unique ones um and most of the houses that have fences to the that don't that do follow your guidelines are temporary rentals they're not homes for people they're just houses um sorry um so take a moment sorry public speaking stress me out a little bit it's okay it's okay so being unique let's emphasize the unique which falls back to historic yeah and that's that's why we emphasize it I thoroughly support the uniqueness of it can you do me a favor Adrian and I know I was in reviewing there's one in there with the wood fencing.

Yes.

I can pull it up on the Google Street View but I'm not sure um Madam Chair if it's a part of the case file but but there is there's a couple in there that I was actually taking a look.

In the case file no not in the case file as I was reviewing because let me let me pull it up on Street View then that that'll be quick.

Because here's the concern in viewing the uniqueness goes back to historical guidelines.

And yes, we're able to be able to support that.

But the concern with this is that when we start deviating too much from it, that was the reason why we set up the guidelines.

I believe that's one of them.

But there's another one that has the western style.

Yes.

I can I can pull it up here.

Yes.

Okay, so this is their house right here.

Absolutely.

And then um right in front of them.

So there's a house right here.

That again, it's also a steel or mesh panel, you know, with with wooden posts, right?

Wallwood construction.

So this of course is very consistent with what we can approve.

Um, you know, as you see, of course, this one does not have a driveway gate, you know, and and we don't have an issue on the on the fence portions, you know, um, again, going all the way to the sidewalk.

It's just the gate for any um new, any new gate to be installed.

When there's an existing gate in place, you know, as you all are aware, of course, over the decades, chain link fences were very common throughout the historic neighborhoods in the 60s, 70s or whatever.

So when there's an existing gate that was previously in place, we can we can approve the replacement of that gate with a new design, right?

So if they wanted to change it to a wrought iron or um any kind of a steel fence.

If or gate, if there's one there, then we can approve it.

But when there's not one there, that's when of course we look at um our guidelines and our fence policy guides, and so and I and I actually have it right here.

So this is our uh fence policy guide for historic districts, and so um this one again, it kind of basically guides our uh review process as well as you know what we recommend.

It guides our recommendations, and as you can see in the drawing right here, uh in the site plan, um, you you will see here for the vehicle gates, they should be set behind the front facade plane of the house and not span across the front of the driveway.

So the this is what guides our recommendation.

Uh, not so much those pre-existing uh gates and fences that again in um in historic districts like uh Lavaca, for example.

Right, this is a good one to use uh their their historic district, where yes, you do see fences that um come right up to the property line because over the years um those fences were installed, and our review process as we have it today, um dictates that this be the location, at least that's what guides our review.

Um if I'm not mistaken, that one image that is shown, they did have a drive that that one of memory serves correctly.

They did have a driveway gate, but because it is the wooden post, it fell, and because it was a short-term rental, I believe they just did away with it because of the functionality of it, the door wasn't it was heavy, and so they couldn't really use it.

Um, and because of the short rental status, it could be wrong, but I remember a door hanging on one of them.

I think it's the back one, but that was a short-term rental um home, and the one next to us that also abides by the guidelines, also a short rental home, which we've already had an issue with them coming onto our property and taking our trash cans for their use, um, which just adds to the frustration of not being able to secure our home in that aspect.

Um but we would be fine not enclosing the left side, as I said, where the ribbon driveway is where we requested, and again, we only requested that because of how the property had already been used prior to us obtaining it.

Um would like to have functionality and like still keep us static, um, but also since we have also had issues with the neighboring rental properties, um, just a little more secureness too, and then the issue of the gas meters being right at the corner of the house.

Um just to reiterate that.

Um, yeah.

Oh, I just want to double down on the security thing just because the rentals are strangers every day living next to us.

You never know.

We can I don't have to fill you in on that regard, but we have had there is it is downtown, right?

A lot of homeless individuals.

Um, and we've had one come in, sleep on our porch.

So again, it's really just we really want to get uh we're just trying to make it a home and not a home, right?

And not a short-term living, but that's most of the ones that abide by the rules, as I spoke with Adrian, you know, they follow the path of least resistance, so they're not gonna be here for a property that they're flipping or gonna use for commercial purposes to begin with.

Um and most of the homes that do have the fences have been homes that have been in families for generations, um, or have been sold from one family to the other.

And we just hope that we can compromise to help this house come home.

So, because here's here's the one one thing that we want we most of us do not want you to do is to go back and start from the beginning.

Okay, because that is the one thing we do want to try to avoid and the compromises there's only so many things that we can do because we're governed by certain guidelines and we can make amendments.

However, there are certain things if you're taking a look at even some of the ribbon parking, when they make adjustments, even in the sidewalk, as well as you you know as I do, sometimes they come in and add additional, you know, driveway pathways.

They weren't originally there.

Okay, and I can totally hands down like accept that one as a no, not a problem.

Let me finish.

The other thing too is the fact that you're willing to make an adjustment in order for it not to fail to go back to the beginning, we can go back and make an amendment so that we can readdress because safety is an issue for you.

Completely understand, but we're also required in government to make those safety issues concerned for you, but in compliance with what we have to do.

The concern for you is the fencing.

But if you take a look and doing a comparison with your neighbor that has the Raw Iron Gate, you have the extensive driveway that they do not.

So that's the other thing we have to take into consideration too.

Let me finish.

So versus this failing, we can let this motion fail, you go back and do additional reviews with the department to where I'm looking at the fence that's up against the the house that's higher versus a four foot fence because we're dressing safety, to where you still maintain the ribbon parking, make an adjustment to the landscaping because we talked about the 50%.

Are you aware about the 50% pebble stoning versus green?

Um, that's about okay.

So those right.

So we talk about that your fencing.

If you take a look at the fencing versus the s the gate coming out or going inward to prevent the damage to the meters, those are things that we're asking you to where we're not bailing your request and not complying with what you're needing, but also complying with what we're governed to do.

So versus you not having something that you don't want, go back and make an amendment with the city to be able to work towards what makes you one safe, two, compliance with the city, and not having to go back to the drawing board again.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Because just like your compliance with where you work, there's also compliance with this department that has to meet and the four-foot wood fence that you're wanting for aesthetics versus the safety.

Which one has a priority?

So the four-foot fence is we had read the code, but obviously the code is different in historic.

Um, and so ideally a six-foot fence would be, but we understand that that's not something that you know within the confines.

So we requested only four foot.

But take a look.

If you're taking a look at some of these houses, that's if it's in the front of the house.

That's not if it's flush to the back of the house.

Remember, you have to take a look at wherever it is, and you have to go back and take a look at what the guidelines are.

And if you're emphasizing safety, so um the other request that was approved was a fence along the house on the western uh eastern side, the left side.

That one is to be a six-foot fence, and so we've planned for a separate area for our pet to not have access to that four foot unless we're accompanying them.

Um so we have taken that safety into consideration, and I mean our child is two, she's not gonna climb over a four foot fence, right?

So it's more just like a barrier between our home and the exterior.

One for our child, two for our dog when we're with it in the four foot fence area.

So we have thought about that um and then um as you so if I understand correctly you're saying that you're inclined to approve the ribbon driveway or not I I didn't understand that that's why I'm as seeking clarification chair no I was just gonna um kind of um uh piggyback on the lengthy so let's just get to because there's a I was just gonna say you know um you know no portion of the rear fencing which is obviously anything behind the front plane of the house is part of this request the applicant has received administrative approval for um again that's rear fencing we can approve administratively six feet all wood privacy fencing so that's been administratively approved and it's not part of the request it's just the the portions here relating to the front um the front fence the front gates and the ribbon driveway.

And if I is that enough clarification what what he's saying what he's stating oh I was just mentioning the six foot fence no six foot fence no yeah no nothing like that we adjusted that in our request okay to match the the the guidelines that are set forth but do you understand why what they're talking about the what they've exit is not it's the little block off area so let's get clarification so that way the motion go ahead.

Okay so let's go back and clarify on the on on the motion on what we're actually going to be about you know passing.

Can I just real quick um as the discussion uh the fence was approved for the space that he since we've discussed and it doesn't seem as we are that's that's what we're that's where we're getting clarification right now.

So we are willing to compromise if allowed by y'all to just do the pedestrian gate which is already allowed and not enclose the second driveway or put in the ribbon driveway and it would be to basically shift the area of approval further down like that.

Yeah so it would be the pedestrian with a gate to the sidewalk that slides it would be what we would request to compromise which Ms.

Davis has already agreed with or she had mentioned.

If we could compromise to that like we feel that functionally that would be great for us and we can secure that corner of the property and our front door would be enclosed our driveway would be enclosed we wouldn't have the two that we want nor the ribbon driveway and so we would concede to you know madam chair I under I understand what you're saying so and then up and down and y'all can discuss what okay that's what we're trying to get clarification.

Thank you.

Okay ma'am go ahead yes I was just hoping to discuss the motion that's on the floor right so let's go back get clarification on the motion because the what was actually submitted on the permit was what was the motion and what the staff actually was able to clarify and was actually able to approve what's in place.

Uh the motion was to approve staff's recommendations period for one and two.

Okay.

And there is a second were there any other discussions go ahead just make comment on on as far as the gate that's aligned to the um to the house there is a I believe a gas meter located there and you're addressing this to Adrian correct well okay go ahead.

Just in discussion.

Go ahead and and my concern is safety of digging uh uh whenever the um the the gate goes in.

If we're gonna have a gate.

That's my concern.

And I I agree with that.

My whole thing is the meter at the corner seems like it's gonna make it difficult if it's at all possible to do it.

And if they can build the four-foot fence all the way open and leave the driveway open, then the only thing we're talking about is just that gate closing it.

So a fence would be okay there.

They could shut off their own driveway, but they can't have a gate.

But I I do wonder if functionally they would be able to build that close to a gas meter.

But if you look if you notice the regulations that actually Adrian brought up, the gate doesn't open outwards.

So that way it prevents from the gas meter even being affected.

Because prior to even the gate being installed, um the get the lines have to be identified, and inspection has to be done and marked prior to even any digging.

That's actually that's in in compliance with anything.

Electrical water or gas lines before any dig in is even done.

Is that correct, Adrian?

Yes, and and I was simply gonna add to that you know the guidelines stipulate that it should be behind the front plane of the house.

So it should be set back far enough to where you know the meters are not affected.

Um, you know, they wouldn't the fence would not be approved to be right at the corner where the meters are.

So, you know, for us and for our guidelines, it would be a little bit behind them.

But the fence line would still have to go between that concrete pad and the house, right?

Because there has to be a post on the house side of the driveway for the gate to attach to.

So we're looking, I'm looking at that tiny space between the house and the concrete pad, and I can see like the things on the front, but where they go after that I don't know, and so that whole thing seems a lot to dig up.

Are you talking about right here the meeting point of the driveway in the house?

So, for us, again, the posts would be situated uh as close to the driveway, and then you know, as far as the gate goes, a little bit behind the meters, and and the location of the meters, I'll simply say is is pretty common, so you know it it shouldn't be an issue.

Are there any other discussions?

Any other concerns, and at this time I'll take a go ahead, I'll go ahead and entertain a roll call boat, please.

Davis, nay, Garcia?

Aye.

Brigard, aye.

Spiller.

Aye.

Fullerton, aye.

Pollock?

Nay.

And Suppulva.

Aye.

Motion carries.

Ma'am, sir.

At this time, I want to go back and work with the department so that way you get your certificate of proprieteness and make sure that we get in as close as compliance as possible, please.

Thank you for being here.

Next item, please.

This is CTAP case 2026-132 for 522 East Evergreen.

The applicant is requesting a certificate of appropriateness to install an 18 uh feet wide concrete driveway at the northeast corner of the lot.

Staff recommends approval to install a 10-foot-wide concrete drive at the northeast corner of the lot with an approach measuring no wider than 12 feet, and encourages the applicant to consider alley access for additional parking needs.

Uh, there is commissioners, actually, one letter for this uh request, so it should be uh in your folder available to you.

And the applicant is here in person.

If you'd like to come up and introduce yourselves, you'll have 12 minutes to present your request.

Just introduce yourself.

Okay, correct.

Sweet, thank you.

Hello, my name is Arian.

Uh, I'm here with uh uh my manager and friend Carlos and my mother.

Um we purchased this house in uh late May, and we are requesting to uh before we put down a driveway to expand the driver from the current unpaved nine foot driveway to a 18 foot driveway.

The reason we're asking for this request is because the frontage of our house is blocked off for any city parking um or any residential parking due to the methods hospital down the road.

Uh so every parking on that side of the road, which is our front front curb, uh, is not allowed.

Um we have essentially three cars, three people that work in this house, um, and the current driveway does not fit more than one car.

The problem is even with one car, given where it is uh functionally, it's hard to actually access our cars unless we park in a very certain way.

This is due to the the width of the uh driveway being only nine feet, um, and then the house being situated if you're looking at aerial view at a tilt.

Um so it does uh in a clockwise fashion, has a has a uh foundation that's not parallel.

And so the problem with that is that we if we try to actually drive our car through the side and go to the backyard.

Our car does just does not fit.

I do not drive a big car, I drive a pretty small car to as a hatchback, and I still I cannot fit through the side of the house.

Um the lastly uh we are trying to essentially preserve what we see on our co on our side of the uh uh neighborhood.

Um there are two houses that I've seen in the neighborhood that have this similar tilt to their house.

One is ours and our next door neighbor.

They do have a 20 feet wide driveway.

Um I think I would be able to picture of their driveway as well.

Um, and we're requesting that we are there there it is right there on the bottom.

Um that we are effectively mimicking what they have done.

Um the other uh issues are that the there is a talks of an alleyway in the back.

I do have pictures that will as well.

Um that alleyway does not seem to be alleyway, seems to be a driveway.

If we look at it from the entrance to it, it curves into the house.

Uh the the house behind our house, it curves into their garage.

Um, and if we were to actually use that as an alleyway, the only way we would able to access our backyard is to drive into their garage and back in because their house is also at a um angle as well.

Um so functionally this driveway currently is a little bit difficult.

Um, especially if you have multiple more than one car, um, and there doesn't seem to be any reasonable options for us to uh utilize what we have currently.

Maybe uh we cannot park in front of our house.

We can't access the back side um and the side of the house as well.

Good morning, thank you for being here.

Thank you.

Okay.

At this time I'll go ahead and open the floor for questions to my colleagues to the left, please.

Go ahead, sir.

Are there any photos of the back alley that we can uh see what he was talking about?

So um there there are a few uh files in the late folder.

So if you can access the late folder, and I'm I'm gonna try.

I'm having some technical difficulties.

So I'm having the same issue, so I apologize.

So I'm gonna um let me just try a different program and if not, I'll at least share the um.

So let me see if I can open them with a different app.

Let me just see now.

Yeah.

I'm I might have to um uh we might have to view them like this for those that can't open them like like this computer as well.

So excuse me, commissioners.

Um so uh these are the photos that um the applicant submitted for the rear drive.

And so uh I I wish we could, of course, um, I apologize, I don't think I can make them a bit bigger, and so would it have a fine email?

I think so.

So if if the applicant has them on his phone, we might be able to project them on the screen for you.

Um so that might be a secondary option.

And so but yeah, the these are the pictures the applicant submitted um for the rear.

Yeah, I'm very interested in uh something to support what he was saying.

Um it's pretty old.

Um I haven't but I'm gonna send these windows right now.

Um would I send it to me if you can open them?

I got your phone.

Oh, I oh, I see.

Sure.

Yeah.

Um so this is the entrance.

Uh on the back side, the neighbor behind us has a essentially trailer, and then behind the walls of their uh house is I think two cars.

Um our entrance is essentially where their blue trailer is.

Um I think there's another picture in there I have there um from a front angle.

This path curves towards their house.

It does not continue towards the end of this um I guess alley, but uh the cur the path does curve towards their building.

Um, no, yeah, I I put it all on the other side.

Um the our next door neighbor uh they already have their own um uh backyard garage and driveway for themselves.

It's all uh fenced off.

Um but for ours, we would be it would be interfering with the backyard or backdoor neighbor um driveway.

And the only way we can access it is to essentially yeah, there's the so there's their car, and then to the right of it would be that blue trailer um for the first image, and the path kind of curves into their property and not straight so that we can actually use it.

And so if we were to use this as a backdoor entrance, um we would have to go where that car is and then back in as the only way because the spacing between the walls of their building and the fence um is it does not allow for any sort of turns unless we hit them all.

Adrian, is this neighborhood used to have those middle alleys?

You know how over in uh Woodlawn area in a couple of the areas in between the houses, they had the um middle drives where the they would come in and pick up the garbage there.

And I know there's a couple of other areas.

Is is this one of those neighborhoods that fall into that because it it's beginning to look like that?

Most likely.

I can't comment specifically on this one, Madam Chair, but um, you know, this it seems pretty likely that this would have this would have been an alley for services and utilities.

So I don't want to say necessarily that that's the case.

That's fine.

So let's let's address this one and stick to this one.

So that way we don't get too lengthy.

Are there any other questions?

Yeah, you said you bought this house in May of this year.

Yes, okay.

And w did you have three people who were gonna have to go in and out of the house or driving in and out of the house when you bought it?

Yeah, uh yes.

Well, two right now, and then my sister's gonna move in with us as well.

Uh, but you anticipated having that many people in the home with the driveway and and back alley as it was.

Correct.

Uh the plan was to expand the driveway.

Uh, we just didn't know we were it was gonna be a complicated issue.

You didn't realize you were buying in a historic district.

I did.

Uh, we never actually owned a historical home before, so we knew we had to go and get permits.

Um, we didn't know that the limit was like 10 feet only.

Uh we saw our next door neighbor the the our neighbor's house.

Um, so we thought you know, if they were able to do it, then it should be something that we could do as well.

Did you talk to your next door neighbor about how they went through that process?

We did, but the problem is that they are renting.

Um, so the owners did a uh I think a decade ago from that.

Thank you so much.

Are there any other questions?

Concerns, are there any other?

Okay.

Thank you, sir.

Thank you.

I'll go ahead and open up for discussion.

Um in reading the letter from uh Frederica Kushner, who's who wrote on behalf of the neighborhood association, um, you know, I think that there are a couple of good points that she makes in terms of uh, and I don't know if the applicant brought this up that parking isn't allowed on their side of the street, which I think is definitely then going to be a mitigating factor, and then the slant of the site.

Um I find the double width um of the proposed driveway, especially looking at the local example that you supplied um of concern, it just seems to eat up a lot of the front yard.

Um so I would um throw out there for discussion, maybe that uh you just that the applicant would discuss with um is it Adrian?

Uh the options that might exist for how you could design that in a way that makes it more um kind of appropriate to what it is, you know, in that context.

That would be the only thing uh that I would throw out there for discussion.

Since obviously the the alleyway and it does look like there one is one according to Samborne, but it's not really an option.

Um Madam Chair, I'd like to echo my colleagues' comments.

Um I I'm wondering, um, because the staff recommends going up to a maximum of twelve feet.

I'm wondering if there's um further discussion that the owner could have with staff um of a way to configure that and and and still be within the 12 feet maximum.

Um I'm just thinking out loud, but I just want to echo what my colleagues said.

And and commissioner, just to clarify, um, you know, our recommendation is 10 feet wide with a 12-foot apron.

Thank you for the clarification.

I misunderstood.

Any other?

Yeah, uh I just kind of maybe a guess.

What would be the minimum width that would be able to accommodate two vehicles?

I mean, do we need to go eighteen foot?

Can we go 14 feet for example?

I think we I think what Adrian is stating is according to compliance and regulation, it's 10 feet with an additional two feet for allowance for the apron.

That's and the max is the 10.

And especially since it's front parking, and some of these regulations that were actually brought up because of the location, it's the front parking is not permitted, and it does put them in a precarious motion uh location, but that is why those were put in place.

That's what the regulations are.

Does that make sense?

And that one is max.

That's the max 10 feet with the with the two feet apron.

Well, we can still recommend vote against that and recommend a fourteen foot width.

And then at what point had we amended the historical guidelines?

And that's an amendment.

But that's our purpose so that we can on a case-by-case basis approve exemptions.

Um Madam Chair, I would just to your point about an action amending the guidelines.

Um the guidelines are guidelines, just they're just that.

So they're subject to interpretation by this body, and so it would not be um like a variance to city requirement.

It would just be your interpretation and application on the site.

But that doesn't mean because we would make an I mean, just because we make a guidelines doesn't mean it'd be approved because it still has to go to another department.

Is that correct?

No, no, it stops here.

And so you interpret the um the policy and do you make a recommendation based on the evidence?

Thank you for clarification.

Go ahead, ma'am.

And I would just add that um I think that looking at the restrictions on this property, that it is more of a hardship kind of situation versus the last case, which was more their idea of what was functional for their needs.

Um so I would say that that's where the difference is in that in this case.

Um, you know, if we were to recommend that this be tabled and sent back for further kind of you know discussion with OHB about how it might be amended or modified uh to best suit maybe uh, you know, to get as close to what we want and what they want, or what what works for them?

Adrian, right now is it nine point one?

That's according to their survey, madam chair.

So um, you know, this this is what we have to go off of.

So that's again that's pretty consistent, nine to ten feet, ten feet being the widest for the historic driveways.

So it's it's very consistent as far as the width goes.

Um, but that's the request.

Okay, go ahead, sir.

Madam Chair, uh a comment and a question for Mr.

Gallego.

Um the comment is I'm listening to my colleagues and I'm I'm you know thinking about the fact that as a historic district, this is an interesting case of you know uh early, you know, um suburban plattering.

We're seeing that standardization starting to kick in, and yet this neighborhood is not absolutely rectilinear in every format.

We have some unusual roads, unusual lot sizes, which complicates the access in the back.

Um we have this really unusual um skewed location of of the house that uh affects the driveway.

And you know, these elements do tell a story of of the history of San Antonio and that that expansion of the city and how uh not just the house but the land development patterns are starting to shift.

Um also we have the you know the other wrinkles.

Surely when they were platding this, no one anticipated a large hospital down the street that was going to affect um you know parking accessibility, and also when they were you know establishing this, they probably weren't thinking of a time when we would all be having two or three cars per family, um, so that was not what they were laying it out for.

Uh now as a historic you know preservation oriented body, we you know are wrestle with these things.

On one hand, we we we see the challenges, we also look at downtown San Antonio, or for that matter, you know, we can look at downtown Boston or or St.

Augustine, Florida, or other places where those streets were laid out for carts.

Um, so we don't want to go around.

We we want to acknowledge the realities of today while also trying to respect some of that historic fabric.

And and I I find myself, you know, really challenged here.

Do we know much?

My question, do we know much about the um 18 to 20 foot uh wide uh driveway of the neighbor and and the was that before a uh the the guidelines were revised?

I'm not sure, Commissioner.

Um, you know, what we could do, of course, is you know, we can always look at um street view to see what evidence we have of it, so um it doesn't look like there's much there um because yeah, this this one's not gonna be helpful, Commissioner.

So this this house is uh grayed out, and so there are no previous dates.

So the one house that we wanted to look at is not um, you know, able to be looked at.

Okay.

Adrian, is the driveway gonna go further in to the property, or is it just all the way up to the building?

As far as the site plan goes, it it looks like it'll be up to the plane of the house.

So just the way it is, just anyway, but like the place.

Are there any other questions, clarifications or discussions?

Yeah, no, uh part of the discussion.

I'm thinking it we may not need a full 18 feet.

We may only need to go at 14 feet or 16 feet, and it wouldn't go so far into the house.

Um, the reason for the 18 feet was uh I essentially measured out my car, it's a pretty small car.

Um it was eight eight feet wide.

Um, so I assume at least two cars, 16 feet.

Um, but because of the fence next to us, the it was hard I have a picture where I could barely open the door.

Um so 18 feet will at least give us some clearance for at least two cars and then um work from there.

Uh our neighbors is 20 feet wide.

Um, at least we can do 18 feet uh preserve some of our lawn as well, and then so when I'm looking at this, I think the hard part for me is all these conditions were in place when you purchased the house and it was purchased very uh recently, knowing it was in a historic district, and if we double that driveway, we're going almost all the way up to the walk.

So now you're really getting into front yard parking and the entire thing would be front yard parking.

And so that's a distinguishing characteristic to me.

Is that I'm assuming you knew that you couldn't park there when you purchased the home on the street?

Yes, yeah, and so I mean I get seeing the other one, I'd be interested to know how they did it or when they did it, or you know, what that was, and I get the functionality, but now you're kind of blocking even like those front part of the windows and that, and so for me that's the distinction.

Are there any other considerations?

Discussions.

What was the recommendation that you made?

Um, sorry.

Yes.

Um I haven't made are you talking about a motion or just kind of a recommendation?

No, we were discussing about something to so mine um suggestion was to table it and let it go back to um Adrian to have further discussions on how it might be mitigated in terms of you know accurately I agree for you know you're pretty much gonna need 16 feet, but maybe there's something that can be done to make it less of an impact on the front yard.

You're already cutting it down by four feet, which is what the neighbor has, and it is the neighbor.

If you look at the aerial, um you can clearly see and what our concern should rightly be, which is how much space it takes up, but um there's not even really in this regard the they don't have the ability to even park two cars one behind the other, so on a on let's say a ten foot wide drive.

So, you know, what do you do?

How do you help in this situation?

So that would be my recommendation that we table it and it goes back to for further discussion and research and coming up with an alternative.

Uh Madam Chair, I guess I would ask staff given that last recommendation and thought.

Would you have any other recommendation than the 10 foot?

I mean, that is your recommendation, right?

Like going back isn't gonna change the discussion.

So yes and no, Commissioner.

So, you know, um the the driveway installation would require your approval, right?

And so the 10 foot driveway, right?

If we were to say, okay, well, the actual driveway, 10 feet, you know, that is of course up to this body to decide and to approve, um, decide whether or not to approve.

But um, you know, that would have to come back here.

So what you could do, of course, is you could issue that approval as recommended, and then you know, we can work with the applicant on additional options.

And in this case, I can mention the previous application concerning um how they had you know gravel, and we had talked about landscaping options that again could kind of assist their situation.

In this case, again, that could be something that we discuss post approval of a driveway adhering to recommendations.

Um, so you of course have the option to decide to the width of the driveway, whether it be at exactly at the as the guidelines were written, a modified width, as uh Commissioner Paul um was contemplating, and then of course, uh to address those concerns that the applicant has related to again being able to properly fit.

Well, we can we can explore those as options uh that are kind of a little bit more on the landscaping side.

Are there any other questions clarifications?

I would support a motion made by Commissioner to table it and let the two parties work on a compromise and then come back to us for approval.

I would actually would not want to move in that direction because it would be much better if we do the recommendation to move forward with this motion, have the applicant go back and work with the department, because then they would additionally they would have the certificate of appropriateness and let the department make the recommendations with the approval that'll meet the compliances because that way they're not having to one spend the time to go back and forth because there's already guidelines, and if we support the motion with the stipulation that they work with the department, that's what I would recommend.

I think the most straightforward approach, if there was interest in allowing greater than 10 feet, to just make that the motion and see what happens.

I think that's a good idea actually, because I just don't think there's a benefit in tabling it.

That's that's just it eats too much time of the applicant, and we can actually have a an answer here shortly, as long as we what was a recommendation, Corey, one more time.

So staff's recommended stipulation is what the guidelines say, which is a 10-foot wide driveway with a 12-foot flare of the curb cut, based on the testimony and some of your comments.

I think that there's interest in a compromise.

Um I can't really dictate what that number is, but that could be part of the motion.

So, madam chair, I I'm I don't know if I'm ready to make a motion yet, but I was going to agree with staff in in the sense that it sounds like we're all circling around.

Is there a a compromise that is a larger width that is not the 18, but it's not the 10.

And so I think if that is where we're circling around, that's probably the cleanest thing is to just make a motion on the floor of what we think an appropriate width is, as opposed to going back and starting over.

I agree with that.

So would you have a work for you?

So can we entertain a motion for that then?

I make a motion that we accept uh staff recommendation with the proviso proviso that staff work a compromise to possibly extend it to 14 feet wide.

So no, it doesn't you can't do that.

It doesn't need the staff compromise part.

I think you should just make the motion that it be allowed at 14 feet with the assumption of 16 feet at the curb.

And just to clarify, this will be to go all the way back, right?

Like the distance of the driveway, the length of the driveway is not the issue.

Like they could do a 10-foot driveway all the way up to the fence without any of us, correct?

Correct, yeah.

Yeah we and so this is just about increasing the width.

This is strictly related to the width.

But this is working with staff.

In other words approve what's what staff is recommending up to so it would be a modified um it would be a modification to the our recommendation.

So it would be a completely a different motion so to speak in that um uh what our interim interim director is saying is um that the um motion be and of course this will be up to you all to decide for a motion to approve a driveway that's 14 feet wide with the flare out of 16 feet um so there would be no mention in the motion of the 10 feet and and Benam Chair I was just going to to add to that I think I think the hold up is that the the motion started with we approve stack recommendations but we're not approving staff recommendations because staff recommendations is 10.

So I think what the staff is saying is that if we want 14 if that's even what we want the motion to be on the floor that we just say a driveway of 14 because we would not be accepting staff's recommendations.

Yes but it's understood that we have the two feet for the for the eaves or yes.

Correct so so you could you could word it in a similar way as we have it written without mention of our recommendation or the 10 feet.

So again as we have it here with an approach measuring no wider than you know again that's where um you you all have the ability to make the motion that says you know uh 12 feet wide with you know an approach measuring 14 okay can you show us a 14 feet I mean so we get an understanding because I'm sorry no sir we're now we're in discussion and we're in the middle of a motion so I'll just say with regard to the 14 feet I don't know where that's coming from because he said his car is eight feet wide so they're not going to be side by side if it's 14 feet a hatchback at eight feet wide is pretty small and so giving another six feet I feel like doesn't really do anything.

But when the driveway goes all the way back to the fence it looks like at least two cars are going to fit in there nose to tail and so I don't know what increasing to 14 feet does except for extra plane of the house more while not really solving the problem.

No what they're saying is the width will go up to 14 which will measure no wider than the 12 feet what they're basically saying it can't go any further than 14 but it's going to be guided by the staff to be able to go up to that but when to give them the extra the extra width to that they're requesting it's no wider than the then the 12 feet that's going to give the application the the what do you call it the eaves the uh we call it the approach or the approach.

The approach.

Just to clarify madam chair and commission um actually no motion on the floor it wasn't three second right what another motion we are not going to how if we're paying discussion.

Thank you for the clarification my apologies.

Does that make sense what what we're asking for or what we're actually so the motion would have to be for the approval to install a 14 feet concrete drive at the northeast corner of the lot with the approachment measuring no wider than 16 feet is what there is what how we would be wording it that would be the motion it's not recommending of the staff recommendations but it's a motion to install point of clarification who made that motion there has not been one, it would have to be one.

Because we're not supporting and thank you for the yes.

Um, so we haven't made a motion, so I can still make uh a comment.

Yes, ma'am, go ahead.

That's that is unfortunately 14 feet's not gonna work.

You're gonna end up on the grass.

Um, at a minimum, it needs to be 16.

That would be a compact, let's say parking lot space, a compact one is eight feet, uh, which means that even with two cars side by side, I mean it's gonna be hard to get in and out.

Um, however, that would be if we went with let's say 16 feet, that's less.

Is that what you're asking for?

16 feet.

I was asking 18.

Yeah.

So if we cut it back even a little bit more, I think that would help.

And to address um, commissioner um.

I'm so sorry, Sarah.

I want to say Connor, because you know I'm talking Terminator right now.

Um in terms of the length of the drive, uh, I hear a concern that it not goes straight up to uh the front facade of the house.

Is that correct?

No, no, no, no.

I am in full support to the driveway going all the way up.

I'm just saying that at that point is that two car lanes versus trying to expand it sideways.

Um and I would say that looking at the the survey that the answer is no because it's 26 feet and um a standard car uh length for a parking space is at a minimum 18 feet, so it's not really enough to get another car in there behind it without it protruding on over the sidewalk, which is um I is it illegal?

I know it's not um something you're supposed to do.

So I think you you know I'm not sure what you do in that case.

You could probably cut off a couple of feet or three feet or four feet from the house, and it would be tight, but um, you know, if you're gonna have two cars side by side.

So I'm just throwing that out for you guys to think about, but the cars don't necessarily have to be side by side, they can be staggered, true.

Uh sure.

Uh just a quick comment.

Um I support my colleague here, uh 16 feet uh would work with the uh addition of uh working with the staff to support some kind of uh of uh I guess it's called a uh creep grass or some kind of a uh asphalt or to support the extra two feet.

Uh I don't know the sub some I guess the staff could work on that extra two feet, not necessarily uh uh cement type.

Sounds like a sounds like a motion if you want to phrase it that way.

Are you talking about approach measurements like the the pebbling for the for the landscaping?

Is that what you're talking about?

He's talking about grass creek pavers, which are a drivable surface that allow for grass to grow through.

Okay, um, and our attorney here is really wanting y'all to make a motion so that we can discuss the motion and not hypothetical.

Thank you.

Yes, okay, so motion.

Okay, I'll make that motion that the the approval for uh 16 feet and uh to work with uh the staff for the uh uh following two feet, second, current.

There is a motion to install a 16 foot wide with a measuring no wider than 18.

Is that correct?

So this motion would allow for a solid concrete driveway up to 16 feet wide, and there's an option to work with staff on an additional two feet to reach the full 18 feet, provided that the surface is a grass crete or some other surface that allows for green.

Won't be that prescriptive, but there's some options out there, okay.

Roll call vote, please.

Davis, aye, Garcia, aye, regard, aye, spiller, aye.

Bullerton?

Aye.

Pollock?

Aye, and Zapulda, nay.

Motion carries.

Thank you very much.

Gentlemen, if you'll please uh well, first of all, thank you for being here.

And if you'll go back and work with staff, so that way we can comply.

Thank you.

At this time, I'd like to adjourn our meeting at 10 35.

Thank you.