Good morning, everyone.

The time is now 2.03 p.m.

on when on Tuesday, March 3rd, 2026.

And we'll call this meeting of the Transportation Infrastructure Committee to order.

Madam Clerk, can you please read the role?

Councilmember Corr.

Councilmember Mungia.

President.

Councilmember Alderete Gavito?

Here.

Councilmember Spears.

Chair McKee Rodriguez.

Present.

Chair, we have quorum.

Wonderful.

We'll start off with approval of the meeting minutes of the February 3rd, 2026 committee meeting.

I'll understand a motion for approval.

Second.

We have a motion and a second.

All in favor.

Aye.

Wonderful.

Up next, we have briefing and discussion on the vehicle for hire industry.

We do have several members of the public signed up to speak.

Each speaker will be given two minutes to speak.

And if you yield your time to uh to folk the max, you'll be able to speak as six.

So I understand the first speaker will be George Garcia.

You'll have six minutes, followed by George Mary.

Okay.

I serve on the transportation.

I serve on the transportation advisory board.

Uh we this issue was brought up before.

We all voted on it.

It passed unanimously, not to make any changes.

It was then brought up.

Um they had two meetings having to do with stakeholders.

The stakeholders didn't have seem to have any problems with it the way the system is set right now.

The issue that I see is if it's not broken, why why are we fixing it?

Who says it's broken?

Uh my wife, who owns her own company, which is called Crystal, that I have nothing to do with, started with the same regulations in chapter 33, 16, 18 years ago.

She followed the same rules that all the everybody else who's in the industry, and I don't understand why are we trying to change or make an exception.

Y'all just passed the deal with the Marvel project.

Four billion dollars, supposed to be income for the city for the benefit of the city of San Antonio.

You have an industry that is doing fine, okay, but you want to change it.

Why?

Where's that eagerness?

If the car's not broken, that's like you're going to get a set of windshield wipers.

Instead of buying the windshield wipers for your car, oh, I'm just gonna throw away the car because the wipers ain't working right.

Does that make sense?

Y'all are very intelligent people.

You put here by the citizens.

We just took on four billion dollars.

Y'all made the decision, everybody voted, everybody's happy.

So why are we messing with something that's not broken?

You have Gary Gilbert and his staff, they monitor what's going on.

There is no issue as far as I know.

You have to have some type of order so that everybody understands the rules.

You can't have gypsies and renegades running out doing whatever they want, and it's not to the benefit of the public and the safety of the public.

I have no interest in the in the limousine business, but I do serve on the tab board, and I've been there.

I'm the third oldest person on the tab board.

And I'm telling you, you people are very smart.

Don't fall for smoke and mirrors.

It's not real.

There's not a problem.

You're looking for something that doesn't exist.

What we do have a problem with is there's a there's other issues that y'all, as the city council have to address that has nothing to do with our industry.

Nothing.

And I just hope that all of y'all remember that we started.

We're we are the tourist magnet.

With what you did with the four billion dollars, we are gonna be the tourist magnet here in Texas, United States, whatever.

Y'all are going in the right direction.

Don't deviate.

Maintain your course, and you'll be fine.

Y'all are very intelligent.

I'm very proud of everybody that's on city council.

You're a lot smarter than I'll ever be.

But I can tell you this much.

I know a winner when I see it, and I see winners here.

Don't don't fall for the smoke and mirrors, please.

Is my five minutes up or six minutes or be?

Do I have any time left?

Yes, you have two minutes.

Two minutes.

Oh, I got all time all day long.

I'm doing great.

I want you to understand that the industry, my wife, which is Sylvia, and owns Crystal Transportation and is a limousine company.

When she first got into business, she had to follow the same rules.

Okay.

And it was mentioned at that meeting that this was a woman, this was a man's world.

When my wife came home and my daughters came home, they were crying.

Because they said, why did they say that it's a man's world?

And nobody, nobody from city staff said anything different.

Okay.

The point is, she's the oldest woman-owned limousine company in San Antonio right now.

She's still here.

So give her the decency that if she had to abide by the rules, all of us have to abide by the rules.

There is no one's better than anybody else.

We're all one people.

We're all San Antonians.

Let's keep that in mind.

We're one people.

I'm through with my time.

Thank you, Mr.

Garcia.

George Mary, you'll be followed by Oscar Vicks.

Thank you.

My uh my speech is longer than two minutes, but I'll but I gave you copies so you can finish it because I'm only getting started.

Thank you.

All right.

It makes no sense to change any rules if the people that have invested years and years of millions of dollars are visibly grateful and satisfied with the rules that are in place.

Not only are we grateful but proud to be in harmony is evident that we are.

The tab board listened to a couple of individuals that wanted to change, and your information given to you in preparation for this meeting hinted of an onslaught of opposition, but that didn't happen.

I'm the appointed chairman of the tab board.

No one with a limo license asked for this, so why are we here?

We're here because someone wanted to get in the business without any consideration of what permitted every permit and legal operator has gone through to be here for almost 40 years.

Today is my 30-year anniversary, just for the record, Limo.

I own the largest company in the state of Texas.

I have legal operating permits in six cities.

I know for a fact that the only reason that it shows that Dallas and Houston now have no rules today is because of the facts.

They lost control of the industry when they allowed liberal changes to their ordinance.

Once they allowed the changes, they couldn't go back.

They couldn't keep up with the demand of supervising the invasion of violators that took advantage of minimum rules.

The city is a destination city.

Our industry compliments that history shows that changing any rules in this case could be the beginning of the end.

We've got to be careful.

The rules that apply to our industry are effective and keep our industry safe.

I repeat, safe.

I knock on wood when I say that the city of San Antonio has been fortunate that the GTU office that manages our limousine ordinance has absolute control over the industry to the point that this staff makes personal calls to all operators on a regular basis, reminds them of fees due, reminds them of drivers that need updated permits, insurance deadlines.

All of this ends when you open the door to a world of unknown challenges.

There's nothing wrong with chapter 33, and it's applied services that are safe and manageable.

Any deviation from this can only end up like the cities that made the mistake and lost control of it.

There are now 400 operators in Houston that used to be 55.

Break the rules, that's what happens.

I've owned a company in Austin for 20 years, and I cannot tell you who's in charge.

I'm the largest company there with over 50 vehicles, and I promise you have never met the people.

I've never met the people in charge.

Thank you, Mr.

Mary, and congratulations on 30 years of uh of your business.

Today congratulations.

Uh Oscar Vicks, you'll be followed by Michael Rojas.

Good evening.

My name is Oscar Vicks.

George Mary's been in business 30 years, and I've been putting up with him for 28 years, okay.

So he ain't on flying by night person, okay.

Now, I would just like to say with um George Mary has been totally committed to the community.

And if there is any kind of changes to downgrade his business or belittle his business, there's a possibility that he would not be able to afford to do the things that he do for the community.

When Katrina was here, he took five limous to mission park, fed them, delivered them, and brought them back to what is it, Brooks?

Brook City.

I think they was at Brook City Base.

Um, NAACP, MLK for the last 15, 20 years.

I have been very instrumental in using whatever vehicles in Mont Luther that elegant limousine needed to supply the MLK.

We have never heard any kind of comp complaints about picking up the guest speakers, the entertainers from the airport to the hotel to the site.

And now this has been going on for the last 15 years.

Um T he was supplied Rolls Royce for the uh parade marshals, buses that pick up the Sam Houston band to bring them back and forward, sprinters to sell the people backwards and forward.

Now this on annual basis, you're not doing this just you know, sometime.

And Sam Houston, we had a big game coming up, and it cost $700 to rent a bus.

I told the people I said, we got to raise this $700.

Everybody put their little dynamic together, we had $126.

You know what they said?

We'll take that.

Now, what company you know gonna do something like that?

You know, I'm proud to say that I've been working with elegant limousine service, and if you make any kind of changes and belittle them or downgrade it, he might not be able to afford to do all the things that he's been doing for the community.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Uh Michael Rojas, you'll be followed by Art Martinez Devada.

Hello.

Uh I'm Michael Rojas.

I am requesting here the stretch limo requirement to be dropped out of the Chad 33 because it's an exclusionari and constitute uh entry market barrier.

The legacy company owners, they invested many years ago when these limos units, cars, they were very profitable.

Along me, there are several small operators.

We have been denied the opportunities to participate in the market in San Antonio on the economic harm is a messadour.

So uh the numbers.

Mr.

Mary talked about different cities in Texas only means competition.

Competition is healthy, it's good for consumers and for city residents.

Every coin has two size.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Hart Martinez Davado.

Good afternoon, everyone.

Uh, I'm here representing Yellow Rhodes, Blue Bonnet, HRH, and Lollipop horse carriage companies.

Um we wanted to uh come and speak a little bit about the uh process of what's going on with the transition uh to report that uh you know the city uh in our opinion has not lived up to its promise of allowing the carriage companies to operate freely for three years and then begin the step down.

We've had particularly uh issues with this last holiday season uh where the loading zone uh that they all have to cram in over there by the hard rock cafe uh became unavailable.

We met with city staff, we agreed on at least five other locations, uh, but the signage uh and all of that wasn't done until after the new year, and so we lost our entire um prime season uh uh uh for earnings.

Again, the spirit of the agreement was that the the horse carriage companies would be allowed to operate to pay down their debts to pay off their debts uh before the city took away their livelihood.

Uh and we're here to ask that that that that be revisited, uh, that we can come in and explain in detail what's going on.

Uh, another issue we're having is as part of that ordinance, we're not allowed to bring in new horses.

And so as we retire horses or as horses get uh uh reduced in service for various reasons, we're not allowed to bring in substitutes, and it's causing us to use the the remaining horses more than we would like to.

Uh and so we'd like to see some relief there so that we can uh manage the the health of the horses uh throughout the remainder of the contract.

Um as far as transitioning to EVs, I mean, obviously we're here uh we're open to listening to any proposal, but we fundamentally believe that they're apples and oranges.

Uh that the type of rider who's willing to pay $75 for a horse carriage ride, they're there for the experience of a horse.

Uh uh, we believe that transition EVs, we go from a highly specialized, unique experience to one in which there's all kinds of competition from limousines to Ubers.

Uh and we would like to speak about that more.

Uh the average full-time driver earns over 100,000.

An average EV driver is gonna earn far less, and we're very concerned about our drivers, their mortgages, and their livelihoods here in San Antonio.

Thank you.

We have a staff presentation.

Okay, good afternoon, Chair and Committee members.

My name is Rick Riley, and I'm the assistant director for the San Antonio Police Department.

Today I'll present a briefing on the limousine permit requirements and horse carriage transition uh briefing uh that are brought out by two previous briefings in November and December of 2025.

Just as an outline, today's briefing will cover the following.

We'll do a brief background of chapter 33, give a brief overview of each of the limousine horse carriage and electric vehicle industries.

We'll talk more in depth about the limousine service operations, then we'll move on to the horse carriage transition, and then we're gonna ask for some input back from the committee as to the next steps going forward.

So since 1992, Chapter 33 of the city code has governed the operation of vehicles for hire.

And a vehicle for hire is a chauffeured vehicle, other than mass transit vehicles or carpools, which operate for any fare or compensation.

That includes your taxi cabs, your tour buses, your stretch limousines, luxury vehicles, petty cabs, motorbike side cars, and electric vehicles.

What it doesn't include is your transportation network companies, your Uber and Lyft, and it doesn't include autonomous vehicles.

The state regulates those and oversees those.

On the stretch limousines, the stretch limousines have to be no greater than seven model years old and have to have less than a hundred thousand miles.

Today there are 12 companies operating in San Antonio with a total of 116 vehicles and 155 permitted drivers operating those vehicles.

Briefly, the horse carriage, also governed by Chapter 33, and it in if those of you who are on council remember in December of 2024, council approved an ordinance phasing out and subsequently prohibiting operations effective January 1st, 2030.

As I mentioned, this is a phase out plan.

The first phase took effect immediately, where no new carriage permits were issued, were allowed to be issued, and animal control services was no longer able to license any new horses other than those that had been previously licensed.

Subsequently, uh phase out will occur where hours of operation will be reduced 20% over a couple of years, eventually ending uh in January 1st of 2030.

Currently, there are 25 horse carriage permits.

Those represent five distinct companies with five permits each, and there's three owners of those five companies.

Electric vehicle service.

Since November of 2022, uh the city has governed the operation of electric vehicles.

You'll see the pictures there on the slide.

Most of you are familiar with the little runner that operates in downtown San Antonio.

An electric vehicle is a chauffeured vehicle that's operated again for any fare or compensation.

The big difference being that the electric vehicle is propelled by an electric motor, a non-combustion engine, has a maximum speed of no greater than 35 miles an hour, and it must meet all federal state motor vehicle safety standards for low-speed vehicles.

Currently in the city, we have three companies operating, 20 permits out there, and there are 33 permitted electric vehicle drivers.

Take a little bit of a deeper dive into limousine operations.

One of the questions that came up when we previously briefed this was whether or not the city was complying with state law and state regulations.

I'm happy to report that the answer is yes.

Texas, those regulations and policies are predominantly overseen by at the municipal level, except for those vehicles that have a capacity of 16 passengers or more.

They have to be registered for with the Department of Transportation, and they have to carry $5 million worth of liability.

Just so that you know, in San Antonio, we have five different types of vehicles that classify as those luxury vehicles.

We've talked about stretch limousines.

Those are vehicles that are stretched 100 inches or more beyond the original manufacturer specification.

Two through five are luxury vehicles.

Those are no more than eight passengers.

That's your luxury sedan.

So if you think about a traditional black car service.

Again, no greater than eight passengers.

You know, it's very similar to a black car service, but in an SUV.

We have limo vans, those are eight passengers to 15 passengers, and then limo buses, which are nine passengers to 45 passengers.

The big difference between those and your stretch limo, besides obviously what they look like, is that those vehicles can to come into service can be no greater than four model years old, and they also have the hundred thousand mile uh requirement that they can't exceed.

This slide lists out some of the limousine regulations in other Texas cities.

You'll see there that uh there are various titles except for Dallas and Fort Worth, share the same title.

Vehicle requirements.

The closest to San Antonio right now is Austin that has the stretch limousine or four luxury SUVs to be a permitted company there.

Uh Dallas and Fort Worth, again, none.

Interesting, between Corpus and Houston, both have a luxury vehicle requirement with a minimum cost of that vehicle.

Interesting that Houston publishes a list of vehicles that they consider luxury vehicles.

So if you think about a high-end car, it's probably on that list.

It's pretty extensive list of vehicles.

We talked about a little bit about the the tab today during public comment, and uh in fact, twice during 2025, the tab received public comment in favor of amending the limousine vehicle permit requirements by removing that stretch limousine requirement.

In the August 2025 meeting, the TAB did vote unanimously to recommend no changes to the current limousine vehicle permit requirements.

And and for those of you who just would like a refresher, uh it's 11 voting members on the tab.

Each of you council members appoint one member, the mayor has one, and then there are five non-voting members that are made up of city staff, public works, aviation, C C DO, Visit SA, and VIA all have those.

Tab meets monthly except for the months of December and April, so during the holidays and Fiesta.

So following uh our meeting that we had in November of 2025, staff conducted two stakeholder meetings to uh garner feedback regarding do we is there an interest in changing those limousine uh permit requirements.

The the takeaways from those two meetings was the the possibility of adding an and or limousine bus with two vehicle luxury vehicle requirements to obtain a permit.

So you would substitute the limousine bus for the stretch limousine, or you could have an either-or situation, and then to increase the insurance amount on liability insurance from 500,000 to a million after that meeting, staff received a memo signed by five of the 12 limousine business owners, again recommending no changes to the limousine permit requirements.

For context, the cost of a new stretch limousine based upon staff's research, is 90 to 150,000 new, and a cost of a new limo bus ranges from 170 to 220,000.

So today, staff is not making any recommendations, but instead is presenting options to the committee for consideration and feedback.

We've covered these in general, narrow them down a little more specificity here.

One option is to require a permit holder to own either two stretch limousines or two limo buses, or one stretch limousine, one limo bus, and two luxury vehicles, and the ages for entering vehicles into service would not change.

The second is to increase insurance requirements from 500,000 to a million dollars.

The third is to rename the limousine industry in chapter 33 to a luxury vehicle service industry, and number four there uh we can staff uh is interested in your feedback to either explore other options.

Do we need to do a deeper dive into one of those options, or maybe the committee would prefer to make no changes at this time.

Moving on to horse carriage and the phase out plan.

As I briefed earlier in December 2024, uh council uh amended chapter 33 to phase out horse carriage operations.

I mentioned earlier the first phase was no new permits being issued and ACS not issuing new licenses for horses utilized in the carriage industry.

Phase two will kick off in June of 2027 through May of 2028, and that's that reduction in operating hours of 20 percent.

Phase three, June of 2028 through December of 2029, another reduction in operating hours of 20 percent, and then the operations, horse carriage operations would cease on January 1st, 2030.

So some options.

Two of the horse care, two of the three horse carriage owners have expressed interest to staff in potential possibly operating electric carriages.

Those electric carriages, much like electric vehicles, would be governed by the electric vehicle service section of Chapter 33.

Except for those electric carriages, unlike the electric vehicles that you currently see Little Runner would be exempted from having a windshield.

We would draft that into the rules so that the people that are in those electric carriages could uh experience that.

Those electric carriages would still be required to meet all federal safety standards for low-speed vehicles.

They would have to be registered with the state as a low speed vehicle, and they would have to meet uh insurance requirements.

Currently, uh two cities, Mount Dora, Florida, and Fernandia Beach, Florida, are operating electric carriages.

Philadelphia remains in a testing phase.

They have actually named their carriage Caroline.

It has shown up at uh numerous uh big events, Fourth of July parades, other parades, but has not yet been authorized to operate full-time on the streets of Philadelphia.

One of the issues that came up from the last time we met was what is the cost between operating a horse carriage and operating electric carriage costs?

And so you can see the capital cost there on the left of the horse carriage.

I apologize.

We left off the actual cost of the carriage, which is roughly 20,000.

So there's an additional capital into the horse carriage costs that's not figured in there.

But from a yearly cost, uh, our research and communication with horse carriage owners is about $15,000 a year to operate one horse carriage.

Uh the electric carriage cost roughly $3,500 a year in talking to those people that currently operate the electric vehicles and come and comparing the two, thinking that they would be very similar in electric usage.

So there are benefits to uh transitioning to electric vehicles.

Low overhead cost is one of them.

So no longer is there a cost to feed, veterinary bills, ferrier bills, and breeding cost.

There's a potential of lower labor cost.

You don't have to muck the stalls 365 days a year, and the transportation cost to move horses from the pasture to stables.

As I mentioned, operationally, we'll continue to follow Chapter 33.

It'll include electric carriages, electric vehicles, and electric classic cars.

They would enjoy no restriction on hours of operation.

Uh, they can operate outside of downtown as long as they stay on those roads, no greater than 35 miles an hour.

Uh no temperature restrictions.

So currently the horse carriages aren't prohibited from operating if the temperature goes above 95 degrees, and obviously an electric carriage would not be subject to an ozone action day that today horse carriages are subject to.

From a versatility standpoint, um we had to build in if the electric carriage wasn't as profitable.

What happens?

Uh, and one of the options that that staff came up with was allowing that uh electric carriage then to be transferred to an electric vehicle for hire.

So and as I mentioned, uh, three of the five companies, so two owners, three of the five companies, have expressed an interest in transitioning.

So, as with limousines, staff isn't making a recommendation, but is presenting options for the committee's consideration and feedback.

The four options on the board there.

Option one is a one-for-one exchange.

You turn in a horse carriage permit, we get you an EV permit.

That would result in 25 additional electric vehicles being on the road if they were all turned in.

Um option two is a one-for-one exchange, but would level set the number of permits.

We have a one one owner right now that has five permits.

Uh the other two owners have two companies with 10 permits each.

This would allow that owner to move up five additional EV permits, uh, and we would result in a possible of 30 new EV permits.

Option three follows that same logic, but as a reduction across the board of the two owners that currently have 10 permits each on two separate companies, five for each company, and we would reduce them to seven and up the one owner that has five to seven to equal that out, resulting in a possible 21 new EV permits.

Option four, the same thing, except we would limit them to five permits each.

In all cases, one option would be once a horse carriage permit is turned in for an EV permit, that horse carriage permit is void and shall not be reissued back to the original permit holder.

That's an option, obviously up for consideration for this committee.

So today we're looking for input regarding limousine permit requirements and the transition of horse carriage permits to electric vehicle permits.

That concludes my brief, and I'm available to answer any questions.

Thank you all so much for the presentation.

You were able to roll two, I think, significant policy discussions into one presentation fairly briefly and uh understand that all these items are connected.

I appreciate all the speakers who came out to speak today.

My inclination, so I my inclination, I'll say, and I came into this meeting feeling this way is uh to move toward a luxury vehicle permit.

And my understanding is that that would not eliminate the use of limousines, but instead allows for other luxury vehicles to be regulated under this program.

And so if someone comes in, they don't necessarily see the value in limousines or they don't feel like there's a demand for them to add new limousines, that they can still be a vehicle, a luxury vehicle for higher service, uh, which is a not a current option for anyone right now.

And I believe that you know, if limousines are in demand, they will still be in demand.

So limousine businesses that have these vehicles will still have the opportunity to have them.

And if a new business starts up and they have other types of luxury vehicles, that does not conflict with the demand for luxury for the limousines.

As well, if we have a higher minimum standard for insurance, I think that also prevents just any random person from joining the industry, which I know is also a concern.

I did today hear two uh primary themes with the concerns.

One being that businesses who currently exist exist today who started under existing or previous codes, uh, have had to make certain investments and have had to abide by certain standards, and so everyone should always have to do that, and we shouldn't limit standards for any future businesses.

And I don't necessarily um agree with this philosophy.

I think you know what's what is of the past stays there if there's an opportunity to move forward in a new direction, then this then the new standards apply for everybody, and so there's an amount of parity that exists there.

Uh the second concern I heard, which is a little bit different, was expanding the definition would create a free-for-all, um, and that there are over 400 uh or so operators in other cities, just one number that was was listed uh compared to the 55 that exists here.

Um how would we go about preventing 400, 500 uh operators from existing?

Is it creating a cap of a certain number so that the 55 don't have to compete with 400 new businesses?

So uh to answer your question, we could cap limousine permits that are currently not capped now.

I think the other thing is, council member, is that we the staff tried to build in for your consideration the potential of saying to get into the industry, you're gonna have to either have that stretch limousine or you're gonna have to have a limo bus.

So there's that buy-in piece that would not exist if we just said, well, come on, bring your black car and you can operate in the luxury vehicle industry.

So what we were trying to do is trying to balance, you know, what happened in the past, and and I understand don't live life in the rear view mirror, live it through the front windshield, but you know, we wanted to respect and honor those uh in those permit holders that currently exist today that made that investment by saying, okay, if you want to be a part of this industry, there's going to be an investment expected of you, and we think that that will also help limit um just anybody coming in that has a a black vehicle that wants to operate as a limit in the limousine space.

So the limousine buses was a to me, it sounded like a new um a new option that I don't know that I previously heard, and so that's how we got to that point was trying to create some still limousine with a limousine requirement without necessarily a straight limo.

I don't know that that quite meets the spirit of the original discussion, but uh I'll uh I'll let Councilmember Mungia address that in a little bit.

Um regarding the horse-drawn carriage industry, uh I understand that there were concerns here listening to the comment that there was concerns about a change that happened in this past holiday season that uh reduced I think the capacity for um for revenue, and so that's that's definitely not a um an intention that we had.

And so I want to understand, and I was unaware of the situation.

Was there a process change on staff's end that led to the conflict with um uh hard rack cafe, or was it an unrelated conflict and circumstance?

How did that what will happen?

So it it's a cumulation of events.

Uh as the city has grown, we've lost those areas to stage horse carriages, and the main area to stage them now is in front of the Hard Rock Cafe.

Well, when you start doing all the construction downtown, that area gets squeezed.

And so now you have 25 horse carriages that may be on the road, say on New Year's Eve, trying to get uh in and out of that one staging area.

So uh in preparation for that, staff sat down with public works, C C DO and the horse carriage people and said, where else can we build in uh those areas that they can pick up and drop off passengers?

Unfortunately, um this is the first I've heard about it as well, council member.

The signage wasn't done in a timely manner, and so people may not have known.

I have as I said, we're we'll look into that from our staff's perspective to see what what occurred and you know, moving forward what we can do.

But that you know, we had had those meetings, and the plan was to open those areas for those uh horse carriages to pull in to pick up and drop off people.

For sure.

And I um I don't want to relitigate previous policy with what's happened and what's been approved by council is the five year phase out.

But what I don't want to see happen is that uh what is an understanding when it was an agreed upon uh ordinance and phase out period uh becomes diminished or makes it harder on the industry than was intended by council, and so um I understand that the the holiday season is one is the biggest season, and I definitely don't want to see that happen again.

I imagine Fiesta is uh another major major season, is that I'm gonna look into the back.

Okay, so as long as we can have signage and we make sure that what happened in this past holiday season does not happen again.

Uh the speaker is here.

Uh if you wouldn't mind having a conversation with him at the conclusion of the meeting, that would be uh appreciated.

We'll do.

Thank you.

Uh, we'll turn the floor over to council members, starting with council member Mugia.

Thank you, Chair Government.

I just want to thank staff for going back and doing it.

Oh, my bad.

I am so sorry.

And you also call me Chair Galvan.

Uh so I I forgot to give my feedback on the horse arm carriage.

Uh, I would be happy with option two, uh, which would allow 10 electric vehicle uh EV permits for uh each of the three owners.

Uh I think it addresses the concern that we had that two owners were each allowed uh five each for a total of ten, while one owner had five for five.

And so without reducing the capacity of those two owners, uh I think allowing for them to keep 10 permits would be ideal while increasing the the other owners up to 10.

Now, Councilmember Mungia.

Thank you, Chair McKee Rodriguez.

Sorry, I've got Rick on my mind, I guess.

Um so I just want to thank staff for doing some due diligence.

I know this is a lot of work for you all to go back and talk to folks about.

Um can we go to slide eight, please?

So kind of just based on a reading of this, this it looks like San Antonio probably has the highest threshold to enter this business across these cities.

Is that could you determine that based on what we're seeing here?

From a buy-in perspective, cost wise, yes, sir.

I would agree.

And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

I mean, I do, you know, see that with some of the folks that came and said, right, that in the investments they make, and we wouldn't just want anybody to come in and operate.

And I think um the two stretch requirement is is probably a little of an antiquated requirement to enter the business uh personally.

So, you know, I think about somebody and kind of mentioned this last time, but if you had, you know, if somebody right now bought five brand new Cadillac Escades, they could not get a limousine permit based on that.

That is correct.

Correct.

Um and so if they had five of the Mercedes sprinter vans, a fleet of those brand new, all the you know, bells and whistles, they couldn't operate as a limousine company.

Again, correct.

Yeah.

So I think that's you know, and I kind of agree with with the chair about maybe changing that designation from limousine service to you know, luxury car service or chauffeur luxury car service or something like that, just to expand it a little bit.

And I think you know, I don't see more people adding limousines to the mix, so to the point where I think the folks that are operating actual full-fledged limousine companies aren't really gonna see more limousines come into this market as a result of that change.

Um, and so I think that you know we've got to go with the modern times as far as what the demand is and what people might be asking for.

Um so I know that you all had been working on something like this with a subcommittee right through TAB about chapter 33, and I guess there didn't not much happen in that subcommittee, or there didn't you guys didn't really find the resolution, is that accurate?

I think that would be an accurate statement.

You know, that the tab had the vote, as I mentioned in August to not recommend any changes to the limousine permit requirements.

Okay.

And um going to slide 10.

You had a memo signed by five of 12 limousine companies saying not to recommend that they're recommending no changes to the permits.

Yep.

And I I see that, but you know, that is still less than half of the folks that do.

It's I wonder, you know, what other situation they're going through, or maybe they're just not reachable.

Um so I do, you know, I think grandfathering in the folks that are currently with the limousine companies is great because they've been there, they've been operating for many years.

They should be grandfathered into any changes that are made, and then to add any subsequent folks, I think definitely you know, increase the amount to a million dollars.

I mean, these requirements are not easy to get into, right?

I mean, a million dollar insurance policy, um, two luxury vehicles that what you said is probably what closer to 100K, depending on the vehicle.

For the limo bus, yes, sir.

Yeah.

So I mean, I don't think that's just anybody's just gonna get a car and do it.

I don't think that's something that you'll see happen with those requirements.

Um, so I do if we go to slide 11.

So uh, you know, I think doing you know, a limousine bus or uh something like that could be a requirement.

So just changing it from the two stretch limousine requirement to something else that kind of matches that, having the million dollar category, and then maybe also doing the luxury uh vehicle service industry category um could be beneficial.

So obviously we're not gonna make changes today, but maybe with that feedback, you go back, you talk to folks, you compare it to other cities and let us know what that looks like.

Um did you all do a survey about any of this?

No, sir.

We just had the two stakeholder meetings.

Okay.

And the stakeholders were of the limousine companies that currently own correct businesses and operate with the city.

Okay.

Okay, that's some of the feedback I have for that.

Um to be honest with you, I I didn't I don't know much about what's happening with the horse carriage operation.

Thankfully, Councilwoman Spears and I were not there when this decision was made.

Uh not making the decision.

Uh, but no, to be honest, to be serious.

I I don't know what's going on, and I do want to like the chair said I do want to make sure that we're upholding our end of the bargain as the city voted to do some sort of phase out if we're not meeting those metrics.

Uh, we need to make sure we are, because I mean that was basically a promise made to these folks, and um we want to make sure we see that through.

So maybe I can have a separate briefing to catch up to speed a little bit.

Uh but if we can accommodate, you know, some of the issues that Mr.

Martinez Devada brought up, I think that'd be really beneficial to help those folks as they're transitioning out.

Uh and so yeah, I don't know.

If you go to slide 17, I'll be honest with you, I don't know exactly what these options are.

So I'll refrain from making a recommendation right now.

Uh but maybe we can chat further and I can learn a little bit more about what's happening here.

Certainly.

Yeah, thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Councilmember.

Councilmember Cor.

Thank you, Chair.

Uh, thank you so much for this presentation, and thank you for bringing it back with all the information.

I do want to say overarching before we um if we're gonna make a change to our transportation code, I think we should make look look at all of chapter 33.

And so I had mentioned previously about petty cabs and also our electric vehicles, so I think we should look at that comprehensively.

I know you put some backup slides in.

Could we just show them for the benefit of the committee?

It is uh and thank you for sharing backup slides.

I love backup slides.

Okay, slide 20 and 21.

And so this kind of just gave do you want to just give a little bit of context?

Sure.

Um so uh councilwoman course asked uh about petty cabs.

Um you'll see there that uh currently 15 is the max.

There's actually a max set on petty cabs.

Uh those are split between three companies.

Uh one company has two, one has six, and one has seven.

Uh group that together with the group cycle, and that's the picture there you see on the bottom uh of that.

Uh and you'll see there on the slide that two permits have been issued, uh, one to each company.

Um we've had people come and ask for additional pedicab permits, and obviously they're all taken.

So one of the things that if we went to uh a mass overhaul, if you will, my words.

I don't know if I want a mass one, maybe digging myself a hole here.

But if we went to overhaul chapter 33, that's something we would have to look at.

Just so you know, councilwoman, one of the other things in chapter 33 that would have to be changed is section 620, which requires a permit holder to operate at least two petty cabs.

So if I came to and said I just want one right now, under the rules, if they were available, we'd say nope, you need to get two to operate as that company.

Okay.

I think we should look at chapter 33 and then following 620 uh holistically.

So if you go to the next slide on this, it shows you insurance requirements.

The current insurance requirement for a petty gap petty cab is the same as for a stretch limousine, which is really high if you're an individual trying to start a business as a petty cab.

So I had a district one resident who came and said he wanted to start one.

He's the current driver, but he doesn't have all of the permits are being maxed.

And his argument was sometimes the companies are buying up the permits and not even using the actual permit because they just don't have the drivers, and so he as an individual wanted to be able to get his own permit so he could construct his own hours.

And so I would love for us to reconsider that.

And it's a very similar situation to the horse carriages where we saw those three, those those couple companies have multiple permits.

Um I think we have to do a more uh um a more strategic job, and I know you're you're in alignment this on making sure we're not over preference, preferential giving preferential treatment to certain companies over the others if they're larger, if they have more ability or if they're the first ones in that no one else can come in to play in the sand now.

We want to keep letting people play in the sand.

So I just want to reiterate that I think we need to look at this as well, and when we bring this back, because I'm assuming we're gonna have to bring this back with some updates.

So that's my request for this.

Um also request to look at the electric vehicles, and the one thing I think would be really cool if we could add is look at demand.

Like, can we get any kind of data to show how many group cycles are going out, how many petty cabs, how many electric vehicles are are in use so we could see like where do we see the demand for some of these in order to regulate in a um consistent way?

Um okay, so I'll go back to the two items that in the present the full presentation today.

My first question is so if I am getting driven to the airport in let's say uh a luxury vehicle, a Cadillac by someone, are they supposed to have an a limousine permit if I'm paying them?

If if they are a limousine permitted company, yes, they they can't unless it's an Uber Lyft, something like that.

They they could say they're not Uber Lyft, they're just an individual driver that drives people for pay in a fancy car, um, or any actually any car right now.

If I'm just driving someone for pay and I take you somewhere, do I have to have a limousine permit?

So if you're holding yourself out as a limousine company, I'm sure there are people that are doing it.

Um, it's not a limousine company, it's just driver.

Just driving if I'm paying, I I need a ride to the airport and I pay Mr.

Gilbert, hey, to up take me to the airport for $20.

It's probably not a friend for $20.

It's someone who has a business car that says I'm a driver for service.

Do we have like a permit not to create more permits for these folks that are, but I know there are a lot of people out there that just do driver for hire.

Right.

So it's basically an unregulated industry.

That is correct.

So, what is the benefit for an individual that has a luxury car to go out and actually get this permit?

Well, you get the benefit of that whole group of people, and you're holding yourself out to that standard so that you can advertise that hey, we're permitted, we have the insurance requirements, the city monitors what we do, our drivers are monitored because if you got an argument with that driver that that you hired in in your hypothetical, there's nothing the city can do.

You get in an argument with a permitted limousine driver, now they're saying there the city can revoke that permit, suspend that permit for a period of time of that driver.

Got it.

So, like if I'm an individual with a black Cadillac who's doing this on my own and don't want to go after big groups of people, don't want to really like I'm just giving individuals my card saying I'm a driver for hire, I don't have to go get this.

Um I don't have to go get a permit.

I would I would counter and say you're probably not interested in getting a permit because you can't meet the permit requirements.

Right.

And but and and that's I think nearly impossible for the city to regulate that person.

Yeah, it's a good question.

I'm trying to figure out with these changes which market of people are we trying to target, right?

We're not individually trying to target because initially I was like, well, if I would want all of the those folks that I've ridden cars with to be able to go get a permit if they need one, if they don't need one, they're they're not really the target market.

The target market is someone who is trying to start a small business that would actively go out and get groups of folks that need to be driven around with those insurance requirements, etc.

It's a standard that we're trying to create.

Right.

And and I would say if you take the final four, for example, and I know both Mr.

Mary and Mr.

Garcia's wife's companies provided multiple limousine services and black car services for people coming in from out of town.

Those people could trust that hey, somebody's done their due diligence and we're not riding around, and we we've got drivers that have been vetted, and we've got companies that have been vetted.

So I think that would be important for visitors coming from outside the city.

Okay.

Okay.

That helps me kind of change my uh where I was in the perspective.

Because initially I was like, well, if you if we have a list of luxury call cars, that should that should be the only requirement.

But if we're trying to create a specific standard, so an external user knows these are the standards that you're going to receive.

Oh, sorry.

Um you can finish your sentence.

Okay.

Um I'll just come back and finish my thoughts after.

Sorry.

Thank you.

Uh Councilmember Spears.

Thank you, Chair.

Um on the limousines.

Thanks for the presentation.

Um, on the limousines, it says on slide nine that they were received public comments.

Can you speak more to that about removing the stretch limousine requirement entirely?

Just so you just don't have to have the two stretches and can have a two luxury vehicles and and or a stretch.

Okay.

On the options, I would I would be in favor of making no changes since that's what the tab board said.

Um and several of the owners as well.

Um and I had a concern about the increase of the insurance as being a barrier as how much that would cost in addition going up that much, it's doubling it.

So on the horse-drawn carriages, I have a lot to say about this because I actually do know a lot about it.

Councilman McGia.

Um the part about the animals, they aren't, I mean, they still exist.

They still have to care for those animals.

I mean, I I know you're taking that out of the equation here, but it's I mean, they don't evaporate when this if it ceased to exist.

So is there something we can do since I would I would suggest if we proceed as as planned that we consider how we help with that expenditure since we are forcing them out of this industry?

Um they're still gonna have to care and still have barriers and vets and all the things they have to do for those animals.

And I don't know what that would look like cost-wise.

Maybe we can get that number.

Um can you tell me too on the EVs how much it costs per EV ride?

And like the 35 dollars for a ride, yes, ma'am.

Averages five dollars for a ride.

Compared to a 75 horse carriage ride.

So do we have an analysis of like a business model for this?

I think I asked for that last time to see the EV, like what that looks like, a yearly um, you know.

I guess all the the financial statements you would need to see to run an EV business versus the horse carriage.

So we asked for that from the EV companies, they were very protective of that.

We don't have any information on that.

Real quick though, where is five dollars a ride coming from?

That's that's us going out to them and saying, hey, average per trip, what are you charging?

And that's what we got back from them was five dollars per ride.

Interesting petty cabs are more than that.

What's that?

Yeah.

Correct me.

I think there are two cities where there are EV carriages happening, and that's the the reference point.

So there's not a large sample size at this point.

So well, and and if and I think councilwoman, I don't want to conflate current electric vehicles with electric carriages.

Obviously, the electric vehicles so think the little runner that's driving around is going to be a completely different industry than the electric carriage where you're putting people in for the sightseeing tour for driving around and and that type of thing in a very ornate carriage.

You've seen the ones that operate downtown.

I don't know that that cost is going to be five dollars a ride.

I think that cost will have to be set by whoever runs that industry, and and I think it's going to be closer to the 75 than the five.

I guess that's what I'm getting at overall.

I'm I'm concerned about how all the drivers, what happens to them because we they are now no longer carrying the horses.

Um how are we measuring the success of a pilot program?

And what if we determine it's no good and we want to go back, what's the path for backward?

Um I don't know also what I would assume they have to have insurance now.

I didn't see that on the horses anywhere.

Um I think I just don't understand how we're gonna measure the the success of the pilot program if we're guaranteeing success.

I also would suggest that we somehow we have to make up for the loss of this year of income for them because they have debts and um I mean I don't know how they got through the holiday season if they weren't able to run their business, but how do we make that whole again?

Um I happen to really like the horse carriages.

It is sad for me to see them going away.

But uh so to the extent of the options, I I guess I I feel like I need more information before I can make a recommendation of that.

I I just feel like we don't have enough information here on what this EV, because it does say EV, so what that looks like, or can you run both at the same time?

Can you run the horses and the EV carriages?

So the option uh did consider that and as an option.

So if I'm a company and I have 10 permits and I want to say I want to turn in three of my horse carriage permits to run three electric carriages, an electric classic car, then I'm turning in those three and I still operate the seven horse carriage permits up until January 1st of 2030.

So you've you've got this other piece, and as I mentioned in my brief, one of the things that we would need back from council and this committee would be once you surrender that horse carriage permit, if you find it unprofitable, can you go back to your horse carriage, or have you surrendered it forever?

And that that permit no longer exists.

So 25 permits today, let's say two companies do five each, so now we have 15 horse carriage.

If they find that unprofitable, based upon y'all's feedback and your and and the direction that you give us, do we go back and say yes, we'll re-implement those for the remainder of the time uh before the phase out ends, or are those officially taken and void now?

So that's that's a decision that council rests with council.

Okay.

I'd like to see some way to go back if we need to, and then I am worried about the other drivers that they employ, like what happens to them.

It's sort of a specialized industry.

Um see if there's anything else.

Yeah, so I don't know if there's so they were reluctant to give you any information.

So nobody's really doing the horse-drawn carriage EV, the electric, I'm sorry, the electric carriages.

They're they're not authorized right now on the streets, councilwoman.

So no, nobody's nobody's operating that electric carriage.

There's two that I know of that exist here in San Antonio, owned by a gentleman who owns a traditional electric vehicle, think again, little runner.

Um I've gotten in one and I've ridden in it, and it's it's similar, not the same as the horse drawn, you know, but it operates the driver sits in the front, the carriage looks just like a horse carriage and and drives just like a vehicle, I guess.

So thank you, Councilmember Spears.

Uh council member uh to eat them.

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks uh for the presentations, Rick.

Um before I begin with the limousine permit requirements, I did want to give a shout out to George Mary, who's our district seven appointee and chairs the transportation advisory board.

No, just totally giving you a shout out.

Uh and congrats on 30 years.

Uh my team and I definitely enjoy uh working with George and we're excited to have him on this board.

Um I did have a question when it for the limo when it comes to how limo companies operate in the city, had we got had we received many complaints on our code prior to this request?

So no, ma'am.

The the the simple answer is uh 24 citations over the last three years.

So we're not we're not getting, you know, this is a very well um they do a very good job of policing their own.

So got it.

Um and I I can also appreciate us keeping our city up to date with other with other cities.

Um so on slide eight, I noticed that um we had the highest threshold for market entry with the current code requiring either two stretch limos or or one limo and two luxury vehicles.

Does this higher threshold mean we can provide better quality or or what is the rationale for that so uh the rationale originally was to have uh the because it was named the limo service industry to put limos at the top of that and and build a professional industry based upon uh the stretch limo that I think uh you know has been around uh for a very long time.

So I'm I'm not in favor of changing our requirements, and I I do think that you know having the input and listening to our transportation advisory board uh to maintain our current policy is is the right direction.

Um for horse carriages, um, you know, I'd like to start by saying that my my initial concern with these horse-drawn carriages was their potential to hinder public safety, um impeding emergency vehicles and slowing down traffic downtown.

Uh on slide 17, why do we why do we have the different levels of permits and what is what is the difference between having 25, 31 or 21 new permits granted?

So currently 25 horse carriage permits.

If we were to say level set it by the number that each owner has, so right now you have two owners with 10 permits each and a third owner with five.

So if we level set his, that would equal 30 total permits for electric vehicles.

Uh the other options were taking each owner to seven.

So the gentleman who has five right now would get a plus two.

The two that had 10 each would be a minus three, so a minus six total for them.

Um and then or take it all the way to five.

The gentleman who has five right now would have five.

The other two would lose five each, total of ten.

Okay.

Okay.

Um, I I did advocate for the three-year plan for horse carriage transition, and I'm glad to see that we're still on track with that plan.

Do we know so a couple of things?

If the horse carriage owner, if all of them fully transition at once to EV permits, what would that look like?

Well, it would put those electric vehicles on the road.

Um, and we would have to make the decision if as councilwoman Spears brought up, if it's not profitable, can we go back?

How do we and if so, how do we go back to that?

So it would certainly cause you know, you're you're exchanging one for one, right?

You're taking 25 horse carriage permits and you're putting 25 electric vehicles, so you're not adding to the vehicles unless you did the option where you upped it, and it would be five additional vehicles that you would add.

Well, but also too, if like if there was a horse carriage operator who wanted to transition to an EV permit now, are they able to?

No, because we don't have electric carriages in the in the ordinance.

That's part of this exercise.

Okay, Scott, it sounds good.

Yeah, yeah, I think we still have some some more work to do.

Thanks.

Those are all my comments.

Thanks, Chair.

Thank you, Councilmember Corps.

Thank you, Chair.

Um, could you go back to slide eight?

So just to kind of finish the thought where my head was going, right?

If our goal is to try to make sure that if someone is getting a permit to be able to access larger scale business, I think there should be some level of standard.

I don't necessarily think that level of standard is a hundred thousand dollars of insurance, but also a million dollars of insurance is uh a significant cost increase, it's probably one of the significant cost increases for someone trying to enter on a monthly basis rather than just leasing uh or having access to the vehicle.

So I would um and I just had one driver message me saying commercial insurance is one of the biggest cost barriers, and so I would say that we should at least keep it at $500,000 and not increase that.

As far as the vehicle requirements, I do think we need to look at, and you can go to the next slide.

So you can see like the variation, but your recommendation not your recommendation, but um options on your option slide.

And I think and if you've stretched limousines absolutely still have a place, and also George, thank you for being here and for your advocacy and for your leadership and for the drivers and folks that came out to speak.

It was really great to hear your hear your story.

I don't think any millennial has well by years, but 28 years working in one company is um incredible.

So that's awesome.

Uh you can't have 28 years as a millennial.

Um, I know how many are you at, John now?

We're good.

Um so uh anyways, on this, I I think that we should actually look at the different luxury vehicle options, but very clearly outline what we expect from those vehicles, what options they were to have, and if it's you know, if it's two luxury vehicles, that is the requirement to me, making sure that they are at a specific standard that you mentioned Houston has a very specific list of what they're um what are allowed.

What are some of like the examples that are your VMWs, your Mercedes, your Lexus, exactly what you would think of, right?

And I think we can modify that just so we're making sure that what as industries change, it it's hard to we have to make sure our policies are being updated as industries change and that they're allowing for the new 30-year-old George Mary to come in and enter the business as well, um, and making sure that they are they have access to the things that we would want them to, which is helping to grow from a small business.

So that's my comments on that.

And then for the horse carriages, I um wanted to ask, and again, going back to the comment, like we should look at this when we're looking all of EVs, because I think this is going to be somewhat now related to our electric vehicle permit, and how do they sit together versus you know, how are they different?

And I think we should make sure if if we're gonna basically have an electric vehicle permit and then electric vehicle or electric carriage permit, that would probably be two separate entities, right?

They would be two separate entities, all covered under electric vehicles because they would all run with an electric motor, non-combustion.

They're all low-speed vehicles, so no greater than 35 miles an hour.

So that's why we group them all together was we saw some similarity there, don't need to formulate a whole nother chapter of uh the city code to deal with just electric carriages.

We can watch it.

So it but as far as the numbers right now, because I think we only have 15 right now for or what it maybe they've increased it to 19 for electric vehicles.

20.

Yes, ma'am.

So that this would be an additional like 30 on top of that 20.

Correct.

Well, I think that we should open this up to the community as well.

So if someone wanted an electric vehicle or because right now with the options, the way that they're listed, basically is gear geared towards the current permit holders.

And I think supporting the equitable decision of making sure all of the companies equally have access to those permits, but also if I want to go get an electric carriage now because it's more affordable, it's a lower cost barrier, or if some of the drivers even maybe if some of the drivers that were previously want to go open their own um carriage should be allowed to do that.

So we should have a separate opportunity for like not just giving one to one.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, I think what I hear you saying is we still want to take care of our horse carriage drivers, and they get they get a group of permits, let's call it 30.

Yes, but we would also increase the number of authorized permits by let's say hypothetically 20, and those 20 would be available to you or I or whoever wanted one.

Exactly.

Um and I would think that you know we could even do a first priority for someone if they were a driver previously and want to have start their own, get their own permit to be able to help them.

Because actually, can you go back to that slide?

I was pretty shocked by the cost because the first remember the initial costs that we thought for electric carriages were gonna be much higher.

Um, I'm out of time.

It's okay.

Uh I think I've given my comments.

Thanks.

Thank you.

Any further comments?

Um, I guess what I'll uh what I'll express, at least as it relates.

So I'll go back to the um to limousine companies and my feedback.

I know I said I'd be okay with the increase to a million dollars.

I think that I mean, I hear what council member core says, and I think keeping it at 500k, I think would be fair if that's the ultimate decision that uh the full council makes when when the time comes.

If it does increase, I do think um grandfathering in the established business owners at their at their requirements uh should be what happens even if they no longer maintain uh stretch limousine.

So if they decide to change and reduce their requirements to what to their business model to what the new requirements are, that they still be allowed to maintain that uh minimum of five or that five hundred uh K.

Um with horse-drawn carriages.

And I think the this conversation has been a lot more about the end results than I think I had intended when agendizing this item, even the first time.

My goal is a pilot program that can start.

I think as soon as operators are able to begin operating, I think that would be my goal.

So if we can figure out what a pilot program would look like where, you know, we know what the cost of the things are.

I know that during the uh original discussion about the phase out, we had discussed uh, you know, city council providing some assistance in the acquisition of of the electric vehicles.

Um I think getting to that point, figuring out what does the pilot program look like, and I would say probably adding maybe two V, you know, two vehicles per company if that's the or two vehicles per owner that you know we help get.

Um, and then setting up set time where it's hey, this is we want to focus on these metrics, this you know, rider satisfaction, the you know, revenue, all of these things, setting that up so that we can we can get this going, but we in order to do that, we need an ordinance that authorizes the use of these of these e-carriages, and so as quickly as we can, I would ask that we get that ordinance that would authorize them for at least the period of time in which we have a pilot program going.

And my deadline would be fall.

Like I think that this needs to be something that's uh that can experience a holiday season so the drivers and the operators and business owners can see what the difference is during one of their peak seasons.

I would have liked to have seen it during another period, and so if there's another peak season that you can talk to the business owners about, I'd like us to be a little bit more rampant about that, a little bit more rapid at that part.

Does that make sense?

Yes, sir.

I think I think uh yeah, uh we could do that.

We could do temporary permits for a period of time to you to meet your pilot program and gather those metrics, you know.

To your point, start in the fall and go through spring break, a good six month period to evaluate.

Okay, what do we see because that catchers uh the Christmas, the New Year's, the Valentine's, the spring break, all of the big kind of holidays before it gets you know really hot.

So I think as quickly as we can do that would be fantastic.

And a part of this is we have a time, we have a designated window that owners must be transitioning, and so the more information that they have sooner, that can allow them to make the decision.

Hey, is this you know, hey, this is working out for me.

I really like this.

I'm gonna make the transition, I'm gonna operate uh an e-carriage business, or they say, you know, tried it, didn't like it too much.

I'm gonna either move my business elsewhere, or I'm gonna transition to a new industry, I'm gonna do something else.

I think just allowing them to make that decision with as much possible information up front while there's still a large window of uh of the transition.

Uh because we're running upon time on the um the number of years before 2030 comes around.

Uh and I'll also add that so it was shocking to be here at five dollars, and so it makes sense that it was a whole different type of electrical vehicle.

I've actually gotten to ride in an e-carriage, and I've gotten to drive one, not here.

Uh, and it was a really cool experience.

I you know, I I was talking to my sister, and she would never get on a horse-drawn carriage, but saw the electrical carriage and is like, oh my god, that's exciting, it's beautiful, still offers the carriage experience, but without a horse.

And so I will continue to disagree about whether we're not going to relitigate arguments of the past.

What happens is we're going to be phasing out this industry.

Do we want to come up with an alternative?

I believe we do, and we want to be as helpful as possible in that transition.

And so I think that's that's where I met for sir on that.

Councilmember Spears.

To add to what you were just suggesting for the fall, can you identify for these um the horse carriage owners, like where to obtain these carriages and because it might take a bit to order one?

I don't know how long they it does take a period of time.

Um, but we we have that contact and we could share that contact with horse carriage owners.

Okay, because then like if we said fall, then they could have feasibly maybe have one to do, you know.

Ideally so.

Okay, ideally so.

Yes, and however we can, however, we can be helpful in acquiring them.

I know that if it's a pilot program, maybe someone wouldn't feel comfortable, you know, buying their own and being responsible for it until they can get rid of it again.

Uh, but if you hear I'm going.

Okay, thank you.

Um, any further discussion?

Okay.

There being none, uh, the time is now 3:15, and we will call this meeting adjourned.

Thank you.