All right, everyone, welcome to this evening city council meeting.

It is our fourth workshop in our housing workshop series.

And our city attorney Lynn Pace has been moderating and will continue to uh moderate MC these meetings.

So I'll go ahead and turn it over to you.

That's it.

That's all the ceremony you want to work then.

Yeah.

Okay.

Thank you.

It is good to be with you this evening, and uh we appreciate you making the join us in these housing workshops we call, but tonight will be the most exciting.

Yeah, uh, it is certainly going to be the most interactive as we move this process style.

Um, just by way of introduction, as was mentioned, this is the fourth uh housing workshop.

Um and so I'm gonna turn some time over to Jake Warner, uh, who has sorry before we get there.

You may remember at the end of workshop number three.

We ended up with a sort of a draft vision statement.

So we took that draft vision statement from session three, went back and with mostly with Jake's help, okay.

99% of Jake's help.

Um, we compared that vision statement to the general plan that you adopt back to January.

Right?

And so Jake is gonna do it, take us through a presentation to show how the the elements of your vision statement dovetail with the plan, and then take us into our discussion for tonight.

So Jake and Penn will require.

And please stop him or us anywhere along the way if you have questions.

I'm gonna hide behind the quote in the uh thank you for the opportunity.

Uh, as Lynn said, um the workshops have been great.

Um, just to recap the first two workshops, we had speakers and presenters come in and explain the existing conditions, some of the needs and issues around housing in our communities.

Um workshop number three, you prior to prioritize some of those issues, um, some of your concerns, and uh as Lynn mentioned, the uh outcome of workshop number three was a draft vision statement on housing.

Um that gave us some direction moving forward.

And uh as we met as a committee to prepare for this workshop tonight, several meetings, and they each meeting at first seemed to quickly devolve into a little bit of chaos.

There's a lot to do with housing, right?

Um everybody was going different directions, and um you know who should we help, how do we do it, uh, what are the mechanisms, where and uh we realized just from our own conversations that in order to be effective tonight, having and setting up a conversation for you.

We needed to come up with a framework, we need this a structure.

So as I mentioned, we've we've talked about the why in our first couple of workshops.

We started to move it to priorities priorities.

We would like to focus tonight on the what and the where broadly, and uh keep in the back of your mind the who and the how it's all tied together, right?

It's hard to talk about what and where without maybe thinking of conditions.

Well, I might be okay with this and this location if this was in place or if we did it this way.

So the who and the how are important.

Um we may get to those later tonight.

Um we added a workshop to what we originally thought would be four workshops.

We now added a fifth workshop largely to come back to those two issues, those those two components, the who and the how, but we know it's all tied together both to simplify to organize um a conversation today.

We are gonna set up a framework that talks about the what relative to where and so to start preparing to do that.

We went back to your vision statement.

And we saw the what as being a larger variety of variety of housing and more of it.

That's that's broadly our what the where in the right locations.

That's very simple.

So obviously, we want to delve more deeply into both of those.

So I'm gonna set up a framework to do that, and then Dustin's office has prepared an engagement activity for us to do that a survey, and then uh we'll have the results that we then want to discuss, have a conversation about.

So that's the outline for tonight.

Any questions before we as Lynn said, we we look to the general plan for some direction to do this again.

The what being a larger variety of housing and more of it.

This is consistent with the general plan.

Um the graphics on your left uh indicate housing stock for Sandy City for Salt Lake County, and then for the three county region.

So we kind of compared Sandy's housing stock to the county and the three county region, and they're divided up by single family detached housing, the yellow, missing middle or kind of medium density housing types is the orange, and then apartments or larger condo buildings would be the blue, so that you can see that Sandy City has a greater share of single family detached housing compared to the county and the region, and using the county and the region is as an example of what the market might be demanding overall.

You know, Sandy City is a part of a larger region, a larger market housing market.

So looking at uh the county and the region as a whole and just kind of comparing.

We don't have to see them, we don't have to match those numbers, but what is it that we're lacking?

So we have more single family detached, we have about the same amount of apartments and condos, but the area that we're lacking is in that missing middle, that medium density stuff.

And so that's the variety of housing that we're talking about is that missing middle.

In our general plan, it identified that residents also recognize that primarily having single family housing has has created affordability issues for new families.

Um homeowners in the city that would like to downsize, they would like to stay in their community, but are there options to do that?

And then their children are then not afforded to be able to live in the community as well.

And so general plan does get into some strategies to add missing middle housing.

Sorry, before you go on, can you go back to that slide?

I think if I want to highlight this for a second just to make sure because I think this captures what I think the main thrust of our discussion.

If you remember our first um questionnaire we sent out, and we had all those bar graphs, the vast majority of use vast majority of the votes said we want and need more missing middle housing.

Missing middle, something between single-family homes and the large apartment complex.

Okay.

So if you look at that graph, if you look at the orange, which reflects that middle range, we have significantly less than Salt Lake County or three county region.

So the numbers bear out what you expressed as policymakers, that that's that's where we need more of.

That's the product we need more of than what we have today.

And that seems to be what you identified in your general plan as well.

The last line there says the plan I the general plan.

The plan identifies areas of strategies to add missing middle housing types that can be attainable in France.

So what we're going to be doing tonight is talking about what that missing middle housing looks like, what it is, and then we also want to expand into where in what is now the 76% of single family detached, where it might be appropriate to expand some of that missing middle product.

So that's sort of the two-part discussion we're gonna have.

So keep going, Jake.

So again, what is missing middle housing?

Most of you are familiar with that term, uh, but if we look at housing as a spectrum from low density single family, you know, large lot single family detached on the left to larger apartment buildings on the right.

What's in between that?

There's a full spectrum of housing types, housing products in the middle, and that's what we want to get into tonight, talking about some of those housing types.

And uh many of you have been to conferences and have read books on missing middle housing.

Um we kind of boiled down all those housing types to six six broad categories that we'd like to use for this framework that I'm trying to set up tonight.

So we're gonna go through those six types, and again, from it kind of ranges from the lower end starting on the lower end, going up to the higher end.

Specifically, I shouldn't have said detached accessory dwelling unit, small lot, single family, twin homes or duplexes, mansion style homes, townhomes, and small mid-rise buildings.

And I'm going to go through each one of these so we have our so that we're all on the same page.

So let's do that.

The first one, the first housing we're discussing is detached accessory dwelling units.

Again, it's a detached structure, so it's only one unit of the building.

Most of them are probably going to be single story, but you know, you do see a lot of these in other cities that allow to put a garage with a dwelling unit above it, so it's possible that it could be a second story unit.

General plan application.

So the general plan does consider these housing types as a potential for us as a city to look into, and it would be to integrate some additional housing types variety to existing areas.

Considerations.

I put some bullet points that I called considerations.

This gets into the how and the who a little bit.

So we want to recognize that there are some important considerations, but we kind of want to put those in the back of our mind for now.

But accessory dwelling units could help maintain the existing neighborhood character.

It could increase the affordability for a homeowner.

We do see in the planning department a lot of potential homeowners that are in there as doing ADUs to help them afford to buy a home in Sandy City.

Obviously, we would need a control for impacts to do this, you know, the setbacks, the height, the parking.

There's a lot of important conditions that may need to be in place, regulations so that those impacts are mitigated.

And then it's likely that the state is going to mandate to do it anyway in the next session.

So Drake, before we go on, any questions about this?

I don't want to take I know I keep interrupting, but uh when you think about accessory dwelling units, bear in mind there's two kinds.

One is internal accessory dwelling units, which is inside the footprint of the existing home, basement apartment or something like that.

State law allowed that years ago.

So anyone anywhere can do that as long as it is owner occupied.

One of the units upstairs or downstairs is this year.

They are considering detached accessory dwelling units.

That's separate building in the backyard.

And that's the difference they're talking about.

The league is actively negotiating this.

We don't know what the legislature may mandate.

But many communities have already, when they approved internal, they approved external as well.

But that's the difference.

Again, these when we're talking about small locks of the fence, and we're talking about detached.

We just mentioned that most of these are already in Sandy, so the pictures you have detached for them.

Yeah, I was going to mention that the last picture was not in Sandy.

We currently don't allow detached accessory dwelling units.

Most of the rest of the pictures are pictures taken from Sandy.

So we do have some great small lot single family neighborhoods in Sandy City.

And again, these pictures are from those neighborhoods in Sandy City.

So general plan application.

General plan sees that these could help to transition from a lower density neighborhood to maybe a higher density or commercial area.

So it would be more on the edges of neighborhoods.

And then do we want to consider that as potentially for infill and redevelopment in certain circumstances in an existing neighborhood?

Considerations, just again, some things to keep in the back of your mind.

When we're talking small lots, single family, we're probably talking 3,000, 5,000 square foot lots, detached.

It is occurring in limited situations in the city, largely in historic sandy, and we have some zoning called residential conservation overlay where they can get lower average lot sizes and so forth.

So it can happen in Sandy, it's not happening a lot recently.

And again, the controls would be important, right?

Um Steve Waldriff talked about entry-level housing.

This is kind of that post-World War II type housing.

This would be what he has in mind, but in the state's mind, they're talking about smaller homes, maybe without a garage to help control the cost.

Um, so there's a lot of ways that these small single families could be done.

Um, obviously, these pictures show garages, uh decent amount of square footage in the house in the housing product that's shown.

The state is is really pushing this idea of small single family with some controls on on how big and maybe what uh not requiring garages and so forth to help keep costs down for entry lists.

Go ahead.

So, in the data that you gathered from Salt Lake County in the region and Sandy, when you consider the single family detached as a portion of it, would this product have fit in that because it's single family detached?

It would, yeah.

So we would essentially like this does not necessarily hit the middle.

This wouldn't add to but give more of it's part of the 76%, but it's also a missing middle middle housing type in that 76%.

So it offers up, it offers a variety in that housing type on that on that round.

This would be what you'd refer to typically as a starter home, and in some communities, Jake has referred to this as small lot.

In some communities, they've actually talked about what they call tiny homes, which means it's small building on a small lot, specifically to make sure that it is a lower cost product that's more affordable for first-time home.

There's lots of variations, but that's the concept, right?

We've tried to boil down for our discussion tonight some broad type of suit, and so there are a lot of different ways this could be done, right?

James, did you have something you were gonna say?

No, I was going to, but I'll save it.

Okay, that's fine.

So twin homes or duplexes again, six to ten units per acre, uh, two units per building.

So for the most part, we're talking about the structure, right?

The built in the built envelope in these housing types.

Um, two units, two attached units, again, um similar application advised by the general plan.

If if this is a housing type that you would like to use, transition to higher density, edges, potentially neighborhood infill.

You know, the the two units together can still maintain um that single-family neighborhood character.

Um I just wanted to point out, and it's not important because this is part of the how, but a twin home technically is two units attached where each unit could be owned separately.

So there's actually a property line running through the middle where a duplex is typically two units on one property, and they're either both rented out or the owner might live in one side and rent out the other side.

So there is a distinction, but for our purposes tonight, that distinction is an important, it may be important when we get to the how, right?

Um this is also another distinction that's not important right now, but with what the state required us to allow for internal accessory dwelling units, that could be side by side as long as it looks like a single family home.

So technically, with what the state required us to allow if it's owner-occupied and maintains a single family character, we have to allow basically a duplex, but we can't regulate the size of the internal accessory dwelling unit, so it could be similar to a duplex situation.

But these could be stacked, you know, it could be a basement apartment, could be an apartment over a garage, or it could be side by side.

Um again, they can maintain the neighborhood scale.

Um, as I mentioned, depending on what you're allowing, twin homes or duplexes, either both units can be owned or both units can be rented.

So if you again quite a variety of what can be done within this houser type, but we're just setting up a broad category of housing type for our discussion.

Mansion style home, these pictures are not in Sandy.

I'm not aware of good examples.

Um we saw this on our tour of daybreak, and these are pictures from daybreak where you have three or four units in a building, it still looks like a single family home, a larger single family home, but they may be apartments or condos.

Um again, it it still looks like a single family home, so it could maintain that single family neighborhood characteristic.

And um, this could be done in Sandy already in our RM or our PUD zones.

We just don't see it happening a lot.

Well, if somebody gets an RM or a PUD zone, they're typically going to build a town hall product.

And as you know, these are happening in Sandy City.

We've got some great town home developments.

Um these would be maybe eight to fourteen units per acre.

Typically there are three to six units in a building.

Um mostly they're two stories, but again, same application envisioned by the general plan, transition transitioning areas on the edges of neighborhoods.

Um often a for sale product, but as we all know, not always a for sale product, even though they may be um separate on separate um parcels, their own parcels, but again, a lot of different applications.

Uh these could be row houses, they could be arranged in a courtyard style, it could be a live work type unit.

So again, a broad category that we're calling town home, but it could be applied in a lot of different ways.

So keep that in mind that it's kind of a broad category.

And then this is our last housing type category, small mid-rise building.

So it's usually going to be a stacked um product, apartments or condos.

We're saying small three to six units, um, usually gonna be more than eight units in a building, a little bit higher density.

Our general plan does envision this outside the cairns in limited situations, particularly our centers, our neighborhood activity centers and our station areas.

So there are a few of those where it is potentially envisioned by the general plan, again with economic vitality to uh reestablish that vitality in some of our older areas.

Um the state is mandated that we look at it, um increasing housing around our stations, and so this housing type is envisioned in the general plan.

Um it does allow for um maybe more integration for mixed use, potential ground floor commercial, but it could be a horizontal mixed use instead of a vertical mixed use, and obviously it it would require adequate transitioning and operating out.

It would definitely have to be in the right location.

So again, those are the six housing type that we want to put in front of you tonight, keep those in mind.

Um we need to stop and and ask any.

Yeah, well, I was just I was just gonna suggest we do that.

We have depending on what literature you look at, they may have a dozen types of missing middle or eight.

We sort of put these into six broad categories, and you as you can see that there's some flexibility on the edges of those.

But relative to any of you have questions about these housing types.

Are there any types of missing middle housing that you have become aware of that aren't on our list that we ought to include?

We are focusing mostly on what the building looks like.

Okay, so you see that house, you don't know how many units are in there, you just know what the house looks like.

So we're not focusing tonight, at least not right now, on whether it is owned or rented.

It is how does that box that building fit in the neighborhood fabric as we expand the range of housing options?

And if it becomes important, I'm okay if it's owned, but not if it's rented.

We will want to have that discussion too.

But tonight, in terms of the housing types, we're mostly talking about what the box looks like.

Two units side by side by side or stacked on top of each other, or some of these other models.

And the two at the either end we didn't discuss was traditional single-family zoning on larger lot and large multifamily, like those two we don't count as the missing middle, but they would be the two bookends.

That makes sense.

So do you have any questions about what Jake has presented?

Or have we missed anything?

Are there any missing missing middle housing types that you have become aware of that we have not included sort of on this matrix?

I have clarifying question based on what you just shared.

So it's not addressing this as much as would the owner like homeownership versus rental conversation fall under the how that we're getting to later.

It it falls more under the who.

Or the who in the house.

You said we are gonna it does.

They're who and how are tied together, right?

Well, and and in some places it's already there.

For instance, internal accessory dwelling units are only allowed if it's owner-occupied, and what is being negotiated as we speak at the legislature is detached accessory dwelling units, okay, but only if one of those two units is occupied by the owner.

So they're already building some of that in there, and we may want to do more.

We are looking to get policy direction from you about how ultimately to amend our ordinances to say to property owners and developers, we're willing to entertain a broader range of housing types and locations.

If that those would that would be in the if the if is what we we know what's tied together, but the if is what we hope to have a deeper discussion about either later tonight or in the next workshop.

That that's I like the structure you're bringing.

Like it took us a long time to figure out it's very, very helpful because that's gonna help us know that okay.

When it move falls under the right category.

So it helps me to know the kind of feedback you are looking for from us tonight.

It's focused on the appearance and the location of said appearance.

Yes, and I I expect that when we get to this interactive part of the program tonight.

I expect that you will say, I'm okay with that box in this location as long if we very much want to hear what those ifs are.

Can I say so?

When we get to, we we put together a little exercise to use as a jumping off point for conversation.

Okay, that we're gonna get to once Jake is finished uh kind of setting it up.

Um, and as you're working through that, you're gonna want to keep in mind those ifs, right?

What are the conditions?

Because that is the interesting part.

We very much want to discuss tonight.

We want to hear from the seven of you.

I'm good.

Um, in talking about the detached accessory structures, I think it's also relevant to think about it's likely that that will happen at some point, detached, having that as an allowed use, but also would we allow to have an internal accessory dwelling unit and a detached accessory question?

Just for sake of uh uh education.

I can tell you that where the dialogue is on detached accessory structures is right now is um essentially they're saying it would be a state mandate, meaning it is allowed on any residential unit larger than 10,000 square feet, as long as either the original house or the the new the new uh ADU is owner occupied, and all the rest of the details will be set by the city height, setbacks, parameters, circulation, all that sort of thing.

Will the legislature adopt it that way, or will they push farther?

I don't know, but that's where the dialogue is today on the first one on the list.

So again, the exercise that Dustin mentioned is is the what those housing types relative to where so we set up a similar framework here of locational types.

We looked at the general plan.

This is the future land use map, it looks very busy.

We broke it down into four categories.

Residential is allowed in the city, basically four categories on this map.

We have neighborhoods along the corridors, we have centers, and then the carrots as a whole, another animal, right?

Um, there are some distinctions that we wanted to make in these.

So we have rural or very low neighborhoods, we have low neighborhoods, medium neighborhoods.

We have two types of centers in the city.

We have neighborhood activity centers, those are the informed blobs on the map, and we have our station areas, those are the state mandated planning centers, and those are the dashed lines, the dashed circles on the map.

So we we made a couple of distinctions and a couple of these types for the purposes of our discussion tonight.

And we're gonna go through those real quick, just so we're all on the same page.

Rural are very low, it's the light beige on the map, which we've tried to bring out there, up to three units per acre.

It's largely gonna be those residential properties that have bar metal rights or larger properties or areas along with bulletin mills where we might have some um sensitive lands that we want to protect or or guard against hazards, so very low density neighborhoods, low density neighborhoods.

These are our what we're known for, right?

Great great uh residential subdivisions, um, up to six units per acre for the general plan.

Most of our our residential areas are low density neighborhood, so that's the single family.

So that's the single family.

That's the you know, that's where the majority of the 76% of our single family detach comes from.

Medium density neighborhoods.

We have some great medium density neighborhoods.

A lot of these are townhome developments, up to 12 units per acre, but we do have quite a bit disturbed dispersed throughout the city.

Corridors, the general plan does signify that we may be open to some medium density along our corridors, our major roads.

You know, our roadways have gotten busier.

This is a response to our roadways getting more intense.

This is matching the land use to the roadway.

Um up to 16 units per acre, again, it it indicates to the development community that there may be opportunities along some of our major roadways for some of that missing middle infill redevelopment.

Then we get into our centers.

This is the neighborhood activity center designation.

Those those six different areas, our existing commercial areas that we wanted to look at a little bit different.

In fact, this picture is from Cory Bend.

Is not one of the six areas, but it has a lot of the components that we would like to see potentially in redevelopment of some of our older existing commercial areas, various housing types, some public space, and then some retail and entertainment.

Cory Bend may not be as integrated as what we would like to see in the vision, you know, with the vision for these neighborhood activity centers, but it's an existing area that has all of the components, and each of those areas has a separate plan, has a separate um dashboard in the general plan.

Some of them may only be up to 12 units per acre high at max density.

Some of them go up to 45 units per acre.

Think of like Union Park.

You've got some office buildings there, you've got some existing apartment buildings.

Um, but it does open up the potential for some additional density there to match what's there already.

Um the 12 to 45 is not in every one of these areas, it's just that each one of those areas has a different character and vision for them that um may match to a different density.

So that's kind of the range as far as a max density in those areas.

Our station areas, half of the areas, half of those circles are in the cairns, and the cairns, there is an expectation that we will have a higher density in the cairns, larger buildings to help kind of build that downtown urban field.

So the areas of those dashed circles that are inside the cairns, basically west of the tracks line, higher density outside of the cairns.

The max density for those areas is about 16, and they all have again a different character, and so they're they don't all go up to 16, but I think there's one or two that envisions potentially going up to 16 in the area outside of any portion that might be in the cairns.

Jake just out of curiosity.

Um in these station area plans, and I know these circles were dictated by the legislature, right?

So you see the half circle on the west there, that's from the front runner station that's actually in South Jordan.

So the state legislature said we want you to plan for a different range of housing in an area that is walkable to a mass transit station, right?

Um, and so that's how that's where these circles came from.

Uh, going back to your previous one.

Does our master plan include any kind of a radius around these uh neighborhood activity centers?

Meaning, if you're within walking distance of a grocery store, do we envision a radius?

How what is that footprint represent?

Is it just the neighborhood activity center, or is it a radius around it as well?

So these footprints are just the neighborhood activity center.

Uh, the general plan does talk a lot about appropriate transitioning and buffering, um, but it doesn't accommodate um it doesn't accommodate the buffer itself or uh okay.

So so the plan is adopted did not did not include radius for these neighborhood activity centers.

It just says that we would need to be sensitive to the context to ensure that what gets built in these areas relates to whatever's next door, right?

So as when mentioned, uh this was uh state legislation, HP 462 basically required four things.

The first thing was to increase the availability and affordability of housing, including moderate income housing.

So the state requires that we look at what are the opportunities in those circles to increase the availability and affordability of housing.

Yeah, um, our general plan includes five station area plans that does that.

Uh the state required that um the local metropolitan planning organization, which which controls transportation funding, they were given the authority to certify our plans that they were consistent with the state legislation.

That has happened, and the and that organization has given those certifications.

Um our plans have been approved.

Um most of these areas outside of the cairns are existing neighborhoods, so there was limited opportunity to do much in those existing neighborhood areas.

So we looked at vacant lots or the or properties that we felt could redevelop to look at those um opportunities, and uh, and then the plan was sensitive to what's around those areas as well.

That's why there's kind of a range for those different circles because the context is different for each one of them.

But for the public, all of these plans are available on our website.

If you were to Google Sandy City General Plan, it would take you to a web page where you could link to all of these plants, and then the last one is the cairns.

Um again, different animal um envisioned to be a very urban environment, downtown type setting.

Um very uh very vibrant, um, a lot of intensity and in building scale and type.

Um but we wanted to put that on the table for our discussion tonight.

We know that you know those larger apartment buildings that are not part of that missing middle spectrum.

The expectations they would go here, and we're not really talking about those larger buildings tonight, but are some of those missing middle types appropriate for some of the areas in the cairns.

So we wanted to leave this as a location type on the table for you to consider tonight.

So again, this is a summary of those location types that we discussed, and then this transitions us into the activity that Dustin has to think about which housing types might be appropriate in each of these location types.

One more I have.

Okay, wait, before you go back, go back to the other one.

Where we go any questions about this?

We've now put up a list of the housing types, and we put up uh the location types.

You can see where this is going.

We're gonna ask you to match.

Okay, but do you have any questions about either of these two lists before we go on with our discussion?

There you go.

So I just want to clarify um cairns.

You you sort of indicated that station area plans are the one thing that sort of overlaps between centers and cairns, right?

So you said half of those stationary plans that we are required to have half of that geographic area within those stationary plans falls within the cairns, but then we're also looking at everything else in the CARES as its own location.

That's a good question, and it makes me think I should have presented this differently.

Um but I would think of the cairns as one thing, right?

When and I would suggest that when we think about direction, but when we think about these dashed circles, I would suggest Lynn or Dustin correct me.

I would suggest that we think about the areas outside of the carrots.

Yeah, okay.

So you know, east of the tracks line.

Okay.

Because the cairns is already going to include that, so it's the areas kind of outside of that.

Okay.

So when you see this activity, Dustin has let's all so we're on the same page.

Maybe think about the station areas as those areas outside of the CARES within those dash stick.

If you go to the prior map, yeah.

Not that one.

Keep going.

Not that one.

That's that shows the cairns essentially of the old half.

So remember.

So we're we're we're ignoring when we're talking centers, we're talking the gold neighborhood activity centers.

And the area of the station area plans that is the yellowish for the purposes of the activity.

For the activity, we've broken those out separately.

Okay.

So you'll see those two separately.

But you're right.

When we talk about station areas, let's focus on those areas out area out there.

Go ahead.

Um just Lynn Lynn brought this up and it would be screen.

That's a good question.

When we did the um the general plan, why wasn't Coria Bend considered a neighborhood activity center?

So the purpose of where it's well, let me back up where it started was we had some older commercial areas that we wanted to ensure maintained their vitality that they um that they could redevelop into the next cycle in their life cycle.

And so what does that look like?

Um that's where the concept of neighborhood neighborhood activity centers came up.

Cori Bend already has some of those components.

It's it's not an older, it's a new relatively newer commercial center.

It's um it may not have some of the same issues as those six older areas that we identified, and so it was left off the table originally as an area that may need some help in the future, maybe maybe long term, but in the near future, next couple of decades, we focused on these six other areas, and then through the process, we identified um kind of a vision of what that could look like, and that vision includes introducing housing, um public space plazas or something, and um and making it more walkable, better pedestrian networks and so forth, better connections to the surrounding built environment, and Cory Bend has a lot of those components already.

So it could be identified as a center, but it's it's existing, it's already there.

It's a vibrant center now functioning the way that we want these others to eventually function again.

But but if I could follow up on that, sounds like the reason you identified the neighborhood activity centers was to preserve and enhance the business and retail activity, not because you were focused on housing.

These six areas were identified at the very beginning as what can we do to help these centers be sustainable long term.

Okay, so it was if we identified neighborhood activity centers, it was what do we do sustainable?

Ryan, you're gonna Jake, do you give me a favor and just go to the map there and point to those four station areas where the uh just so people in the uh can see where we're talking about those those four stations along with the historic standard right here?

First one that's our historic sandy station.

This is our expo center station.

This is the civic center station, crescent view.

The state requires that we look at our portion of the front runner station as well, which basically is the mall area.

Yeah, but we have a plan for that portion as well.

So, what I want to do is just remind um folks that the four along the tracks line, all the neighborhoods, including the one that I live in, all predate tracks.

So when we talk about the areas outside of Cairns, you see lots of neighborhoods that uh that are inside those circles, including everything from historic sandy down to my neighborhood on the south.

Every one of those neighborhoods were tremendously impacted by tracks.

People tend to have a very short memory, but when that tracks were built in the 90s, um, that plowed through existing neighborhoods as they are.

So I just want to put that on the table for people's collective memory.

If we're thinking about oh, we need to go back and redevelop those existing single-family neighborhoods right there.

Um, not a great idea from the standpoint of all of those neighborhoods re-date tracks, and they were all impacted by tracks.

So when the state says, hey, I want to do something different because I paid for all this, um that's a true statement.

It's also a true statement that they impacted a lot of people's lives along that line.

So just uh mentioned earlier, the opportunity to do something different, it's very limited in those existing neighborhoods, right?

And that's not the intent to come in and redevelop those areas, but what are the opportunities?

And for the most part, a lot of residents said we would just like to have better connections to the station.

Is there a way we can open up a pedestrian path or something so that we could get to the tracks a little quicker rather than walking a mile to go around, you know, and anyway, but yeah, the idea is not that we develop those areas, but we we looked at naked parcels and so forth as potential opportunities.

But yeah, the idea is not that we develop those areas, but we we looked at naked parcels and so forth as potential opportunities.

Justin, you have yeah, I I just just a thought on both of your comments.

Um it's interesting because when you look at the station area plans when you look at the neighborhood activity centers, we we've defined them a specific way, right?

They're geographically constrained within our general plan.

But for the intent of tonight, and I'm gonna go rogue here, I'm sorry, guys.

But what I encourage you to do is to yes, think about think about what those uh areas are generally like, but with the understanding that there are other areas of the city that might have some of those same features, you know.

Jake identified 40 bands.

Borie Bend has a lot of the same features, and as James just said, it is a vibrant center, and so you can think of it, in my opinion, in the perspective of this is it's a neighborhood activity center, or it looks like a neighborhood activity center.

And to your point, Griana, the uh uh station area plans, you know, there's those neighborhoods on the east side of the tracks line, and honestly, those neighborhoods fit right within some of those low, medium density, single family neighborhoods, and so you might be thinking in your head, hey, I think you know that neighborhood there actually aligns with uh more with that than it does with the station area plan.

What we're what we're interested in tonight is understanding the broad types and where they might go in the in the broader sense, right?

So really quick.

Um, I I did forget to mention this at the beginning of the meeting, but it's just after six, and I wanted to address public comment, and so we'll go ahead and take public comment at the end of this workshop before we get into any other you know, hence that calendar item or council member business.

And so if there is any member of the public here interested in giving public comment, um there are cards in the back, um blue cards that you can fill out and then hand to staff here, and then at the appropriate time after the conclusion of this meeting, we'll go ahead and take those, and same with any online uh participants.

If you'd like to make public comment, we'll do that.

Then I just wanted to quickly address it, like crap, and it's 603.

Go ahead then.

Send it you were you raising your hands?

Yeah.

Um so as you're asking us to consider this question, what kind of housing types would we consider in each of these areas of the city?

How would you like us to envision those parts of the city?

So you showed us the you know, you showed us what we've seen before out of the general plan, the future land use map.

If the future land use map was completely implemented, this city would look completely different, it would be much much much more dense.

So is that what you're asking us to consider?

A future of what the city will look like or could look like using the future land use map as our guide.

Are you thinking asking us to just consider in fill?

Um, because that's a completely different question, right?

So how I think I think you may want to get several responses to your question, but I think in some respects, uh I don't remember when we last adopted the general plan.

Guessing it was 30 years, 79.

1979, more than 30 years ago.

And this plan is our what something, what do we call it?

2050.

So we're thinking this is a 25 year plan.

Okay, and of course, it can be amended by the council at any time.

But this is a 25-year vision statement.

Okay, so I would say to you, think of what Sandy looked like 25 years ago in 2000.

What did the city look like?

All right, what do you anticipate it's going to look like 25 years from now?

Not we're we're all guessing, right?

But remember that whatever the vision statement is, it will only it will only unfold incrementally.

So I don't know when the Cairns district was adopted.

Uh I wasn't around city done.

But if you look in the Cairns district today, you will see some high higher rise residential, and you'll see a lot of vacant problems because it doesn't all happen all at once.

It happens a little here and a little bit here, and it may take 25 years to fully implement the vision for the Clarence District.

So my request for you tonight is don't think about Sandy as it looks today in telling us what you think is appropriate for that area.

We're looking to the future.

We know what's appropriate today, it's there.

What we need is your vision for the future.

We think in the future it might be really good to have uh on a high density corridor, like say 13 feet, 70 State Street.

What kind of housing types are appropriate for that kind of house?

I will tell you in holiday where I live, Highland Drive is one of those high density corridors.

There's old single family houses, but nobody wants to live in those.

It's not a great location for single-family homes.

And so they get dilapidated.

Okay, then it needs to transition to what the market wants for that location.

Okay, what is that?

We hope you will tell us.

The same is true for residential properties abutting these neighborhood commercial centers.

Being right next to a 24-hour Walmart is not a it's not a high value residential property, so it works better in a different product.

Same might be true if you live next to a gas station or et cetera, et cetera.

Okay.

So I would ask you as much as you can to say, you know, I think long term we might want to move in this direction.

So this is a directional statement, knowing that even if we authorized it tomorrow, it's not going to get built tomorrow.

It might be built in two years, five years, 10 years, and a little bit here and there along the way.

A lot of infill.

What we're saying is we're okay if the community grows in this way and in this direction.

That's what we're asking.

That's the feedback we're looking for tonight.

And I would say that as the project manager for the general plan, I see it a little bit differently than uh maybe what you're saying.

Uh we heard competing things from our residents, they love their neighborhoods, they want to protect the character of their neighborhoods, but they're also concerned about our housing situation.

Um they they can't afford to move, or their kids can't afford to live there, or they don't have options to downsize.

So, how do we how do we do both of those things?

Protect the neighborhood character and provide additional housing options.

Um, for the most part, these future land use designations were intended to match what's existed, right?

And so uh but are there options?

Is it possible that on a core lot we may be okay with a twin home or something?

Or um would we be okay with some of the slightly larger lots in those neighborhoods subdividing?

We rezoned a property a year ago for a guy to be able to do that for his daughter.

Um, is there a way that could that could happen more naturally through City Co?

So in my mind, there's those two things.

We've got these housing pressures and demands, but we want to maintain the character of our great neighborhoods, and so are there options, housing types that we can introduce into those areas and still maintain character.

That's kind of how I guess my question is.

While it's real reasonable, you think that we redefine what kind of housing is allowed, and then it's not gonna happen immediately, but it's just gonna happen over a lengthy period of time.

There is a possibility that at some point every lot could become the maximum density of our so um, even though it may not be real reasonable, realistic to think that way, it could.

If you allow if you allow twin homes in its own, and you're saying that might be appropriate on a corner, you can't define it for a corner.

So every lot in that area could become a twin home.

That's the way we have to think of it, right?

Well, you could say, unless you're on a corner.

That gives it gets into the how and how it could be complicated, right?

But or you could say for properties zone in a residential single-family neighborhood who are adjacent to a non-residential use, or on a major corridor or on a major street.

There's a lot of ways through that.

But what you what you do is moving into the interior.

And I guess what I'm trying to point out is that Sandy doesn't look today the way it did 25 years ago.

I can guarantee you it will not look the same 25 years from now as it does today.

We're asking you to give us to to give us policy direction as to what direction you would like us to move.

And because where you allow it or encourage it is more likely to happen than where you prohibit it, and that's what we do with our our land use policies.

Um, I just got back from visiting my daughter in Boston.

She's paying a premium in her apartment because she's half an hour from a train station, right?

People will pay a lot more money, those properties are a lot more valuable if you can walk to the train and then drive down to downtown Boston without taking your car.

Okay.

Well, that's why the state has asked us to look at these station area plans because walk being able to walk to a train station may suggest a different type of development than someplace where you're a mile away or two miles away, and you can't ever get there on it.

So but but those are all I I know we're asking you to look to the future, but you know that's what that's why you guys got elected, right?

So you can make these policy judgments, but but I think we have to assume more than just what is on the ground today.

I totally get that.

But this conversation about hey, you can get into a lot of detail about where you let's use the example of 21, right?

It may it may be allowed in the zone, but we're only going to allow it in certain places in the zone under certain circumstances.

That's a completely different level of definition that we've applied in the past, and maybe we can do that.

Um I wonder is that our intent?

Well, to get that's part of the liturgical about where you would say, I'm okay with it.

Are you okay?

Right.

I mean, that's what he's saying.

That's what we're bringing up.

You would have that's what we're asking you.

Are you okay with that?

Right.

But but let me let me just do that.

Because it seems to me like once it's allowed in the zone, unless you really get into a definition where it is and is not within the zone, then a property owner is going to have a reasonable assumption that what's allowed in the zone will be allowed for that.

So to get it in the like a planning commission phase where they say, Yeah, it's allowed, but we don't want to do it on your property.

That's we would we would it would not be uh you would have a set of specific conditions only we will allow you to build a twin home on that lot if you meet these conditions that we set forward in the company, but but just put this in perspective.

State law already allows two units in everyone's handy, state law already allows that.

They may this session allow two units, two separate units on every lot or every large lot, say so to some degree we are already seeing those incremental changes occurring because their citizens are demanding, they're demanding more housing options, and so we either have the choice to hopefully direct that growth, or we let others direct it for us.

But can I uh it is going to happen, yes.

So I love Cindy's question because I actually think it gets at the heart of what we're hoping to achieve to discuss.

We what we're looking for is to understand what the seven of you where what you feel like belongs where under what conditions, and so yeah, tonight we're not going to get into well, if you know we've got to uh site plan all these units.

No, no, no, no.

We want to understand a little bit broader than that, what conditions might you be okay with this housing type going in that type of location when we have that general understanding?

Our hope is to do a test fit, right?

Where we're gonna take uh an actual property in Sandy, we're gonna take Shane's house, right?

The single family neighborhood without longer line for long time, and if you guys are saying, hey, we're okay with this housing type to go in that location, but it has to be owner-occupied and it has to be XYZ, then our goal is to take those uh conditions and apply that to our existing zoning in order to find out exactly what's missing.

And all the tools to bring back, yes, then we can say here are the changes that need to get made, but that also helps us in our next workshop to get into the well, who are we doing this for and how exactly are we gonna do it?

So we're we're kind of sticking our toe in the water of that tonight because we don't feel like we can talk about uh uh what and where without dipping our toe into the how.

So when we when we go into this next uh this this exercise that we prepared, what we want you to do is um each of you on your own.

I I've sent you an email, or if you don't have your computer, I have a QR code you can scan on your phone.

But basically, we have a little exercise we want each of you to go through where we've lined up these types with the locations, and we want you to give us an understanding of what you think might go where, as Lynn described it within the future in the future of the city that that and as Jake described and how it might impact right the existing neighborhoods.

But what we want you to think about if you're gonna if you say no to a property type, or even if you say yes is are there conditions, right?

If if we get into, I'm just gonna throw out an example, but um low density neighborhoods, and you're thinking about well, do duplexes belong here in some scenario, if your answer is is uh yes, think about are there any conditions associated with that?

If your answer is is uh yes, think about are there any conditions associated with that, or am I okay with just allowing them in those areas?

If it's uh no, again, think about but are there any conditions where it would become a yes, where I would potentially consider that because that's really what we care about tonight.

Yeah, Jake, if you can go back on your slide deck there to the graph you had at the beginning, the three circles.

If the goal of this is to increase the amount of missing middle in Sandy, you have to be willing to convert some portion of what is now the 76 single percent single family residential to a different housing model with the evolution, the growth of the missing middle into some portion of that area.

Portion, yeah, yes, busy streets, stationary plans, neighborhood activity, which portions that's what we need you to tell us.

But if the answer is no, no change to any of that, then we won't need a fifth workshop because we're done, right?

So we do need you to tell us what incremental growth, organic growth, are you okay with?

What do you think works in this community in the neighborhoods you represent?

Um, because that's what we will work on, but you can't say we want missing more missing middle and insist on no reduction of single family residential.

Does that make sense?

So I thought again, we're not voting on anything tonight.

This is just conceptual and directional, but but that's where we are in the in this discussion.

This is where we need your feedback.

This is the participatory part, and everyone has to do their own work, no sharing notes or looking on anybody else's page, your own quiz.

Whatever, yes, brook you that.

I'm just gonna say, you know, I I appreciate these workshops.

Um I thought that they were a great idea.

I think they're a great idea.

Um, I I'm actually really excited to have the opportunity to do what we you know talk about, especially when we're running for office about being able to guide growth, you know.

We the buzzword smart growth, what is that?

Well, that's us having these conversations and going through these exercises to figure out what we want to incentivize where, especially, you know, I'm kind of maybe taking an extreme uh position on the circumstance, but I kind of feel like the state's forcing us to um increase density in some areas, and so if that's on us, but but they're still giving us some latitude to decide, you know, maybe what and where, then what do I want to incentivize where, right?

And and then doing that, then you come in with the how do we do it.

And I do think that it can be nuanced and and surgical if that's what we want.

So anyway, I just wanted to share that.

That's kind of how I'm looking at it.

I'm I did to do this exercise with all the questions.

Yes.

Uh since you open the door for education speak, I'm gonna walk through it.

Um what I see us really doing is what we've been asking teachers to do in their classrooms for years, which is differentiate, think about the individual learning pathway of every student of the classroom, understand where the student currently is and where we need to get that student.

That is heroic.

That is super super hard for our teachers.

Um, and so uh and the education ecosystem, we've been trying to think about how do we help teachers do that.

Um, so instead of just you know, teaching one way, we're helping them think differently about what instruction looks like and inform their instruction based on the different needs.

And so I what I hear you asking is what does differentiation look like for us as we are thinking about our opportunity in Sandy to like you said, Brooke, like take hold of what is within our control, acknowledge there are things that are not within our control, but take hold of what is within our control, um, and lean into the opportunity to differentiate.

Now, the burden is gonna fall right here.

Like we might give you all of the directors she was pointing to James right here, Eric.

We can, I mean, I love that we're ready to actually share thoughts.

Um, but ultimately the differentiation task of you combing through where we ultimately land and applying what we indicate where we're ready to champion, um that's gonna be code related, right?

That's gonna be you opening the code exactly and differentiating, which is more than we've ever done before.

We would love to get to that part, yeah.

It's a heavy lift, but differentiating for the learners in our classrooms is the right thing.

And differentiating for those who would like to live in Sandy is the right thing.

We just need to figure out what that differentiation is coming by.

Any other questions before we metaphorically hand out the quiz?

I'm already open quiz.

I hope you haven't open your test early.

Anyway, um I received permission.

If you're ready, go ahead and pull that up.

Now I will tell you this is anonymous.

We will not know who submitted which response.

It is only being filled out by elected officials.

Um once you fill out the quiz.

It's if you Jake, if you can go back to the previous screen.

Umce you fill that out, then we're gonna take a 10 minute break and let staff sort of digest the data so we can hopefully present it to you.

But you're really gonna be asked to to match housing types and location types, right?

And this that's essentially what the quiz is.

Which of these do you think are whipping in which of those areas?

And more than one response is okay.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yes, select as many.

There's another option if you have something novel that you want to add.

There's none of these.

Um, but if you could go through each housing type, uh, but when everyone's done, we'll pull them up.

I so you are aware.

Uh the mayor had something she had to go to tonight, so we have her completed a little earlier this afternoon.

So her um responses will be on there as well, so we'll see all eight elected officials.

Um take as much time as you need.

We should have the Jeff.

That was your job.

Some soothing elevator music.

Yeah.

We can already get you either.

Um as a whole.

Don't put pressure.

I don't want that.

Perfect.

Thank you.

Oh, stop.

We'll start it up with translate.

Dustin, let us know when you've got all eight, and then we'll just put all the equipment.

If our ten minutes and then actually see on all of those none of the above, none of that tracks.

Yeah, I'll share my screen with C.

So great too much.

That's true.

Is anybody not worried about it?

So as I'm selecting, that's two things.

I own an account.

I'd like to read how that either.

I thought it's comfortable with that.

And I'm comfortable with that.

Well later it will be why.

Yeah.

Is there any situation where you want to be comfortable with the question?

If you're not comfortable with that, we'll put the questions.

But if you but it's still you are the policy set for us to follow.

Are we comfortable with that?

Are we comfortable with the point?

Yeah, okay with that.

It will come out later.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Good.

Thank you.

This is more a total discuss.

It's really helpful.

Let me know when you hit the I'm almost I'm almost like that.

I made it bad now.

Great.

Um doesn't have to start.

Do you mind if we just take a quick reset?

Yeah.

Do you mind if we take a quick reset if we have to do that?

Okay, we're just gonna go into a five-minute recess.

Third work.

Yeah.

Well, okay.

I'm off the pan.

You are actually I was thinking.

Oh my god.

Um, I thought we're gonna look together.

I'm gonna meet who is that something else when the speech.

All right, everybody.

We uh included our five minute break for staff to deliberate over our responses, and I'm gonna turn it back over to Lynn.

Thank you.

Uh we've received your quizzes on the whole.

Your scores were very good.

Although we were disappointed at the margins.

Uh the school teacher speech.

I would appreciate it if you more of you would read the packet with that's a bit homework and then scores.

But anyway, oh I'm gonna turn it to any future meeting.

That was just the school teacher speech.

Okay.

So I'm gonna turn the time over to Dustin.

He has tallied the results uh and we're gonna walk through that.

Um the results, it's sort of bar graph format.

The results themselves will tell us a lot of information, but we don't want to stop there because many of you may have said I'm okay with this if I I'm okay with this in this location if we want to make sure we understand any of those conditions, right?

That may have influenced your vote.

We don't want to just take the raw data and run with it if there's more you want to add.

So let's turn over to Dustin and then we'll have more discussion.

Yes.

Okay, so I'm gonna go ahead, I'm gonna pull up uh the results.

We'll just go through question by question, get an idea of where all eight of you stand on the question of you know what might belong where uh in Sandy.

What I'd say is let's just kind of scan down each of the the seven questions first, and then let's go back and start talking about uh conditions like one mentioned.

So let me pull that up.

And we'll get copies of this.

Uh I'll see if I can print it out.

I haven't tried to, so we can I'll see if there's a way to download it or not.

I hope so.

Yeah.

Yeah, I just haven't tried to do it.

Um okay, let me see if I can zoom in just a little bit.

See here.

Maybe not good.

Okay.

Everybody read that.

All right.

I I can't zoom in a ton more, but so we we started with question one, which uh which which um missing middle housing types do you feel are the best fit for the cairns?

Okay.

And so each of the types are listed over here on the left, and this column with the number shows how many of the eight elected officials said that they they felt that that housing type was a good fit for that location type.

Um, and so you can see uh we detached accessory dwelling units, small lot single family, uh the mansion style multi-unit homes, town homes, small right, small to midrise, I'm sorry, small mid-rise buildings, um, all received at least half of the elected officials saying that that was a good fit.

A couple that ran away with almost everybody were the town homes and then the small mid-rise buildings.

Again, we'll come back and discuss further.

Uh, question two, which of the following miss missing middle housing types do you believe were the best fit for the station area plan centers?

And I mean run away on this one.

Every single one of the missing middle housing types, at least four of you said uh fit in the station area plan centers with uh uh the mansion, I'm sorry, with um small loss single family, the mansion style homes, town homes, and then the small midrise buildings, uh all receiving even more than half elected officials.

Uh three question three was which of the following uh best fit the neighborhood activity centers, and similar story to uh the station area plans.

Every single one of the uh housing types uh you felt were at least half of you thought were a a good fit for the neighborhood activity centers with um small single family town homes and um the small mid-rise buildings.

Oh, I'm sorry, and detached accessory dwelling is all uh receiving more than half of votes from elected officials.

Uh we're getting into the little less dense locations now.

Um sorry, after we get go through corridors.

So the next one was corridors and corridors.

Most of the options still fit.

Uh small lot, single family received four, mansion style received four, town homes and small midrise buildings received seven, so seven of the eight of you.

Uh five is when we start to jump into neighborhoods.

Um neighborhoods, uh, the medium density, uh, most of the options received a large number of votes.

Detached accessory dwelling units received four, uh, small lot single family seven, twin homes, seven, mansion style, seven, uh, town homes, five, small midrise buildings, one down in density.

So these are the low density neighborhoods, and if you recall from the map, the low density neighborhoods are the vast majority of Sandy City, and quite a few of the options received at least four votes, um, or four of you thought that they were a good fit.

Detached accessory dwelling units, all eight, uh, small single family, five, twin homes, five, mansion style, five.

And then we jumped down to the uh very low density neighborhoods, which comes close to you know, mirroring the uh uh low density with a couple less votes, but detached accessory dwelling systems receive seven, small loss, single family, duplex, mansion style, all receive four.

And so you can see there are a ton of housing types that you that a majority of you felt fit pretty well within uh each of the location types that you've identified.

So the question that we want to ask now we want some discussion on is um if you selected one of these options, but you had some conditions attached to it, what were those conditions?

And if there was some an area where you felt um, you know, I didn't select this, but maybe there is some major condition that you would apply to it that might change your mind.

We'd be interested in discussing that as well.

But I'll I'll let Lenny that and I think just like to qualify what Krustin said.

I think I'm assuming most of you said respondents said this could work in that location, yeah, right?

Not that it's not that it's fine, just go do it, but it could work if is my guess.

And my so I don't know exactly how to orchestrate this discussion, but if there were if in your voting, your thought was yes, this could work in that location, provided we were careful about these things.

For instance, detached accessory dwelling unit in the backyard.

It could work, but I wouldn't want two stories looming over my neighbor's fence so that they don't feel comfortable hanging out by the pool, right?

So what are those terms that the ifs, the terms and conditions that you think we would need to not to dictate what they are, but just to take into account as James and his staff work through this, so that we address the the pieces that that make it fit or make it compatible with the property that may not have uh redeveloped yet next to Shane, who's trying to you know turn his property around.

Does that make sense?

Partner rumor.

Where do you want to start?

You want to start with it?

Well, we're starting with Shane's property, but we're having more generic.

No, just anyone who wants to if there was anything that you had in mind when you voted yes on any of these that you would want to say, provided you address these issues.

James and his team need to know that.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, for my standpoint, one of the key things to be was um buffering and transitions, but it's something we talk about all the time.

Yeah, you know, here's here's this usage right here, and something like a duplex or a town hall might be a really good transition point into something else.

So, you know, tend to be around the borders of the areas we're talking about.

Um, but that's that was a key thing in my mind was the idea the concept of bordering and transitioning.

So you're talking more of the border, not going into the interior, but where you transition people in where there's a change in housing type, yeah.

Right.

That that to me is the biggest kind of no-brainer approach, right?

If you've got you know, busy streets, some of the examples of Lynn was talking about earlier.

Um, yeah, that I and I I I see a number of these around the city.

There's uh you know single family neighborhoods, but it's on a busy road, and and the yard looks like garbage, and um, you know, it is not a desirable piece of property, and it's probably being rented out right now.

You know, is there another use for that?

I think in most of those cases, yeah, absolutely.

Can I ask a follow-up question to yours, right?

So you when you're talking about transitions, let's look at uh like low density neighborhoods here, for example, right?

We have small loss, single family, we have duplexes.

So from your perspective, would an appropriate transition be existing neighborhood to small lot single family to duplexes, like that small loss, single family is kind of separating the duplexes from the existing neighborhoods.

Is that your idea of transition?

Yeah, that there's um uh that it doesn't have to be everything everywhere, but when you look at a um uh when you get into the uh details of the area, there there are places that uh that would make sense to put the you know, may not necessarily make more sense deeper in, or you know, I I wouldn't put, for example, you know, a the town home complex smack dab in the middle of a low density area right there, uh something that's by a major corridor.

Uh those that you know, there are a lot of situations we think bear discussion.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

I think the way I approached it, I tried as hard as possible to simplify this because there's so many unknowns in these equations.

You know, you're asking us to think 25 years out.

We don't know anything about the next 25 years.

So I I think that was adding complexity in my mind originally when I was hearing your comment, Cindy, that's instantly what my brain went to was we're being asked to envision something 25 years down the line.

So I took that off the table.

And where I landed on my ifs, and I kept it as simple as possible.

If we have open space, then A, and if we have infill, then this.

So my choices reflected the most common scenarios that I think a council like ours could face.

And that's either do we have this all of a sudden open land where let's say the mall, for example, crashes in the next 20 years, and we've got to address something there, versus if we have one to two acres in a neighborhood that's existing already.

What would I feel most comfortable with?

So those were my ifs were very scenario-based of infill versus broad patches of open space.

I don't know what guidance that gives you.

I I just felt like as I was answering these questions as easily as I possibly could.

That's just what my brain was telling me to think about was because I do think we face those with their different conversations in my mind.

It's a whole lot easier to have a conversation about 20 acres of a parking lot that is no longer there versus one acre in a neighborhood.

In those two circumstances, so so that drove your what what you would put in each one of those based on a scenario.

So would you say then that from your perspective?

Um so wait, let me just find out if I'm understanding what you're saying.

You would lean towards less intense use for the in-fill, and maybe a little bit more intense for the new developments, the developments.

That is a good way to capture how I answered the response.

Yes.

Dot dot dot.

Yeah, well, and and just to that point, if I can sort of pair these comments, often what you've got is you've got I'll give you an example of what we dealt with the holiday.

We have a lot of three-quarter acre properties, right?

That had high value when they were developed.

Now no one wants that much land.

So someone wants to sell that, do something different, their children don't want that property, but property is valuable, but not for that land use.

So you want to give them something valuable to do with that infill three quarters of an acre that will work for them, but also work for the neighbor next door who may remain a single family home on that three-quarter acre property for the next 10 years.

The way I agree, so you you want to you want it to be harmonious to allow the change without disrupting the existing adjacent piece.

I think balanced would be the word I would use.

Not harmonious, but balanced and flexible for the decision-making body that has to make that call.

So, would a balanced approach be maybe in that three-quarter acre lot or that one acre or somewhere around that size range be the AD, the external.

Yeah, and and I did select ADUs in those environments.

I think that is a wonderful use case, and that's a tool that we have not 25 years from now.

So I did select ADUs and those.

So like those like kind of more they they felt a little more commercially retailish, something like that.

I felt like ADUs weren't appropriate there, but once you start getting into those neighborhood areas, that's where I select, I selected ADU on every single one.

I think the images really help so I appreciate the images being there because it really kind of gives you that perspective of it could look this nice or it could look this way and put it in the neighborhood when you're making that.

I think I started going ADU on whatever picture of Cory Bend post.

I can't remember number three, that's where I started picking ADUs.

So when I when I was going through this, it was it was similar to both how you know Ryan was looking at it, you know, and and Zach.

Um, just really quickly from like the ADU standpoint, in my opinion, single family and ADUs don't necessarily fit what I see in like the Karen's area per se, um, where you get into those other lower density areas, and there may be an opportunity for it to fit better.

Um, but mostly when when I think about changing the housing to accommodate the growth that we're being asked to accommodate, I think about it from more from the way that Ryan um kind of talked about it in those transition opportunities.

You know, I'm not I I don't think that there's any practical, you know, logical reason to go into the center of an existing neighborhood and slap something up that does not fit the homes that you know surround it in all 360 degrees.

However, there are homes like as you're coming out onto those main roads, and and maybe there are maybe there are main roads, but maybe less main than like seventh east, like um 114th, for example.

Um, not to talk about Shane's property, but hey, it's the thing tonight.

Go fright ahead.

Well, 114th is kind of the main road up into those areas.

And so when I hear about people um talking about housing and increasing density, it's not so much the density, it's the problems that they perceive that come along with the density that is the biggest problem.

And so trying to understand like what are those problems?

Well, um, traffic, parking, um, there's some safety.

I'm not talking crime safety, I'm talking more, you know, people pedestrian kind of safety, and how could we mitigate those if density is um is considered?

And so, for example, like on 114, below 13th, you have um a nice area where all of the homes backyards back the main road.

Past 13th, a lot of the homes front the main road, all the way up Wasatch, there's homes that front that main road.

And at the time that was maybe appropriate because the roads were not as heavily used as they are now.

But um now I hear a lot of people that live on those main roads have problems, you know, pulling in or safely pulling out, and you've got um pedestrians and bicyclists utilizing those roads more and potential safety issues with backing out in the dark or whatnot, right?

And so I'm trying I I also think if if there's a way to incentivize a certain type of housing, but also have it not front or you know, like have direct ac driveway access onto those main roads if we're looking to the future, you know, that that might be helpful in creating situations where we have more safety, less traffic issues, um, less you know, some of those less irritations.

Just up from Shane's house, there's um Jenny Lynn Court.

And so I'm assuming that okay.

I was I'm assuming that there was a once a property that fronted there.

Yeah, that was two properties that was turned into four.

Okay, and so now there is a little private road that opens up into this small little you know, subdivision, and so all of the houses are able to now exit, but you've also increased density in a way that transitions, I think, fairly appropriately with the surrounding neighborhood.

And so like that's kind of how I was looking at a lot of that and trying to figure out um step doing like step downs to in or step ups, I guess, in density from your your low density to the the higher commercial neighborhood centers.

Um I I do think that there are more stipulations.

I don't know, you know, where that comes into play.

I personally, and I don't know that this is a secret, but I really like the mansion style apartment houses.

I think that those could be really awesome opportunities to transition from our more lower density neighborhoods to the um higher density commercial areas because they do visually fit the look and feel of the existing neighborhoods without you know the um but you know, some of the I think potential hurdles that we have with even our future land use map is some of the areas that may be appropriate for it are kind of in those ultra-low rural, you know, density fronting like 114th, for example, you know, and so I think that there could be some consideration um given to specific areas within those zones to accommodate these types of opportunities and transitions.

Okay, that then you extend that conversation a little bit.

So 114th is a neighborhood in transition very much.

Um when I first moved there, uh since I've moved there, a lot across the street has been subdivided from one lot to the side of me, it's gone from two lots to four lots to the east of me.

Uh there's a beautiful home with an external ADU.

Not legal, but it built the garage first and built housing inside of it, and then they built the house.

Um directly on the north side of me is Red Feather Estates, which was a it was Redfeat stables.

It was uh one residence with with uh where they had uh they ran a stable with 30 some odd horses and all that is just uh has happened in the 27 years that I've been there.

That is now um I think 25 patio homes or 55 plus seniors.

Um of the things we've talked about in these discussions about uh people who live in our neighborhoods now wanting something smaller.

Um many of the people who used to live in the other in the neighborhoods around it now live in that development and love living there, not having to deal with their yard, not having to do with a lot of uh the things that they were dealing with in their single family home, and so it that whole street is very much in transition, and part of the reason is is because when it was when a lot of it was built, it was built to large uh lots, R120 to R140, all animal rights.

I still have animal rights on my lot.

Um, so does my neighbor.

My neighbor has uh one or two horses at all times.

Um it's going to it's going to happen over time.

The question is, are we gonna let it happen haphazardly, or are we gonna are we gonna um put some things in place that will allow it to be much more organized?

Other thoughts, couldn't we?

Well, Cher.

Um I think I'm uh very much in line, you know, with with what I'm hearing from from Ryan and Brooke in terms of um I think the right approach is the transition approach.

You both described it differently, but I think you're basically saying the same thing, and I I really I really see that as valuable.

The other thing that informed my thinking in terms of how I responded was thinking about the private property owner, and wanting to be mindful of you know, and and Shane kind of brought that up just now as well, that the era of really large lots um is just not as viable any longer, and and there have been you know, periods of of contention in our city when those who have owned those significantly large lots wanted to split go from two to four, you know, or one to two, and they were condemned, you know, by their neighbors for wanting to do that, and they by definition, I guess perhaps you could argue they were increasing density, but we're talking about four acres getting divided into four one-acre lots.

Um, I don't consider a one-acre lot dead, and so that's part of what I was thinking too, is what is and your word was right balance.

Like, how do we balance the private property owners' rights to this property that I've owned is my kids don't want it.

I it I need to do something different.

I bought this because this is my nest egg, and I'm 90 years old, and I need to sell it and find somewhere else to go.

And so I wanted to balance you know, the if a private property owner is is wanting to take a two-acre piece of land, what am I comfortable allowing that private property owner to do if they want to subscribe?

So I felt like even going down to half acre lots where, for example, animal rights, like you still have animal rights.

Um I think I think being sensitive to the surrounding homes are apps, it's absolutely critical.

But but binding a homeowner to the use of that land is is where I I wanted to be careful.

I wanted to really think about what I felt comfortable with because I think private property rights matter, and that's why I like the mansion idea, um, because you can you can respect your neighbors and the desire to have this still feel like a large single family home, but you're now making it possible for young families to have a starter home, which is where we're gonna get later in terms of my priorities homeownership.

I know that's a condition for later, but um I think it's just incredibly important to me that we are making it possible for people to start building a life in Sandy, start establishing equity by becoming homeowners.

So I'm not interested in more rent.

I asked a follow-up question, Marcy.

And you know, this is I mean, I guess it's really a question for everybody, but you know, you said uh homeownership, and you know, that's a question for later, and I would argue it is, but also it might be a condition, right?

And so a question that I that's kind of been in the back of my mind for the last few months has been is um in your in the uh vision statement last time, right?

We talked about uh owner occupied by and so I'm wondering is owner occupancy a condition that you guys are concerned with applying, and if so, does it um change your opinion or had the influence what you already selected in terms of the property types that you would be willing to put where?

So I guess what I'm saying is if if somebody came to the city and said, hey, uh there's this acre, I want to subdivide it, and I will subdivide it in four, but I'm gonna rent it.

But if you allow me to subdivide it and build eight units, I'll sell them.

We'll have the owner occupied.

Does that change your your perspective or your your opinion on what uh is acceptable at that location, or does it not?

For me, homeownership in pretty much each of the different segments that we analyzed, um, is critical for me to see value and the type of holes that I was willing to consider for that area.

Um, I think home ownership is a top priority for me.

To your specific question, I'm gonna have to think more about that.

Like if the private property right, like the person who owns the property, it's one acre and they want to divide it into four and it's a rental versus eight and it's a homeowner, I'm like I like that that specific scenario, I'll have to process it.

But let me give you a better example.

The um, if you look at the what we're calling the mansion home, that's easier to do if you rent it.

Uh right.

So you'll get more of them if you allow it to be rented.

If on the other hand you say, we'll allow it, but only if it's owner occupied, then I gotta create a three or four unit condo project.

That's harder and more expensive, and so the developer will come to you and say, I can't do owner-occupied unless you give me more of them.

I need to I need my greater return to offset the cost of doing the condo.

Um, and some of these products that we were talking about, some lend themselves to greater degree of ownership than others.

For instance, an ADU, by definition, only one of the units is going to be owner-occupied, the other one's gonna be a rental, because we're not gonna let them subdivide the property, right?

Um question.

That's for you to decide.

Farmington doesn't work, yeah.

Twin homes side by side, typically owned, duplexed side by side, typically rented.

But again, so um, but often what I am hearing in our discussions is owner occupancy is more of a challenge, it's more expensive to get it financed, it's more expensive to get it built, and to divide up and have a long-term HIV et cetera.

And so typically, if you want to encourage owner occupancy, and this I think what Dustin's getting back getting at, is that you may have to structure something that says you can have X in this area, owner rented.

But if you'll if you'll commit that it's gonna be owned, we'll give you X plus we want to encourage you to build that bottom.

Yeah, and I asked that question because within the vision that we drafted last time, that was a key, right?

Owner occupancy.

And so if that's a key within our vision, then we need to figure out well, how do we get there?

And so that's why I asked the question if we get a commitment for owner occupancy, or if we enter into an agreement with a developer that the units will be owner-occupied, and we make that happen long term or for a period of time, does that change your perspective on what might be allowed in that area?

Does is the owner occupancy important enough to you?

You're willing to say, okay, we're good with a little a few more, a few more so that we can make that happen, or does it not not change the equations?

Right.

And the same thing may happen with uh we don't have the graph in front of us, but but small homes or starter homes.

Yes, right.

If somebody says, well, if you want me to make this affordable for first-time home buyers, um the land costs so much, if you only give me five units, they're all gonna be very expensive.

But if you give me 10 units, I can drop the price and first-time homeowners can afford it.

And then you would say to him, fine, but you give me a contract that if I give you 10 units, you won't sell any of them except to first-time home buyers.

For me, so you you bargain for that consideration, but you you give something more in exchange for to obtain your take your priorities.

And for me, I would be because the problem I'm trying to solve is helping people start building equity.

The one key takeaway for me from a workshop we had early on was that equity gap of we have an entire generation of young people who are not able to buy homes, and what that looks like down the road, that was like a huge awakening for me.

And so my answer, and it's only my to your question is yes, that is a critically important part.

You know, so I think there was another piece you were saying, Len, that I was like, oh, I want to highlight that now it's model.

I'm sure it was really good if I said it, but um it'll probably the reality is as a policy measure, this council determines how many units can be left on an acre.

So let me get it out, or I'll lose it.

Um so say we put that obligation in place, how do we protect it?

Isn't another presentation we received indicated the state is working on something by which the ownership has to pass on because we're let us creatively work on the how you're working that's the how I'll bring that back to you.

I need the ownership to transfer with the property and continue to be home.

And that's that's again that goes to the question is that an important and important enough measure for you as elected officials that you're willing to give up something else for it.

You you're probably would be giving up is more number of units.

Well, in the transition and in the transition areas, I think that's the value of where we give it up.

So, yes, developer, if you're happening to, you know, this homeowner has asked you to put together a project, but it's in a it's in a transition area, so it I would be okay with that because we're fostering homeownership, but it's not dropped to Brooks Point, it's not dropped right in the middle of the neighborhood.

It's some type of a buffer between large single family homes into much higher density.

It's an it's an in-between state.

Right.

Yeah, I'll I'll kind of summarize.

I think then your point was the let's do a deal game.

And I'm all for the let's do a deal because I think that's the only way we get things done.

And I'm more than comfortable about striking a balance that's right for that property, that location, um, so that we're accomplishing the goals because you know, making sure that we get home ownership.

I agree, some of these are much more difficult to do and get to the marketplace than others, and so I'm all about let's do a deal.

Okay, others we have not heard from.

No, no, you have to say something, but I want to make sure you have a chance, and we are almost a two hour so this is an interesting conversation because the kind of discussions that we tend to have, like at LPC, about the deed restrictions stuff for home ownership, tend to be tied to affordable housing.

So density bonuses, um, deed restrictions tend to be tied to affordable housing.

Are we thinking about applying it to all four sale housing?

See, that would be on its different scale than generally.

I think the I think the you are right in the sense that that's most often how it comes up.

But but what really happens is this council, by virtue of your land use authority, determines how many units you can get for eight.

The land cost is what it is, but that cost goes down depending on how many units you can put on that acre, right?

And so most often where I see deed restrictions is or or or the kind of the contractual negotiations that Ryan was talking about was when you the city says essentially to a landowner or developer, I'm okay with you putting in more there as long as you give me more of what I want to see in the neighborhood, because that's what the long-term long term that's what benefits the city.

It could be starter homes, it could be homeownership instead of rental, or it could be a certain product uh design of the unit that fits more harmoniously in the neighborhood.

But all of that basically says, and and this concept I think we're having discussion we're having says we're okay with you putting in X, Y, or Z in this neighborhood, but depending on what it is you want to put in there, here's what we want to see.

If you're willing to, if we're if we can reach an agreement on that quid pro quote, you have our blessing, because we think that's a long-term benefit of the community.

And I am I'm personally the opinion that if the city gives clear signals to what you want and say to the development community, we will give you more of what you want, units.

If you give us more of what we're looking for, we will get more.

I just I kind of want to say too that I tend to think a little bit like Zach was describing.

Um, if we're talking about green field opportunities of planned communities, that's one thing, right?

It's but if we're talking about infill projects, that and if we're talking about transitions, you know, another thing that Jake said in his presentation, which is important to me, is honoring um the um the neighborhood character.

So if that's what we're trying to accomplish too, then I first need to know what the neighborhood character is before I can tell you what works in terms of a transition.

So I I'll be very interested to see if we can define scenarios that kind of incorporate every sort of infill from uh you know a half acre to a few acres.

I I'm very interested.

I on the off the top of my head, I'm not sure how you do that and not potentially open the door to unintended consequences.

Um I but I I just I think it's a challenge.

I'm glad you guys are willing to undertake it.

I can't remember when Marcy said the burden fell with that.

Um, but but let's face it, Sandy doesn't have a lot of green fields, so you're talking about infill.

But the infill on the property as Brian was describing next to the gas station where it's already dilapidated, they're doing there is no lawn, and you say, you know what, that's not very desirable.

We might get something a lot better if we let them build something other than a single family home.

That's a different infill model than one in the middle of a neighborhood where somebody and you say, go ahead and tear down a single family home and rebuild one, but we need to protect what's there, which is that's not a transition model where it's appropriate for a change.

Or where you have a struggling commercial center, Michael's discussed, 94th and 7th, where you're losing tenants, struggling commercial center, your 10, your rate, your rents aren't as high, you know, maybe some type of infill will help.

Well, and in all of I'm no expert on this, but when we were dealing with the Cottonwood Mall project, don't go very far in that um in holiday.

What they said to us was holiday is not on a major commercial, not on a major freeway.

They've got all these other suburban shopping malls.

The only way this is going to be successful is if you bring people.

People drive commercial sales.

Daytime, nighttime population.

Right, daytime, nighttime population.

So if you want your commercial areas to succeed, bring people, right?

That will make them more successful.

What does that look like?

How I don't know.

But that's the concept where the commercial center does better because the housing helps and and they help each other.

That makes sense to population.

Aaron, we haven't heard of Aaron and Allison, we haven't heard from you.

If you want to add anything, you don't have to, but I for me there weren't like that many ifs.

I just like plugged in what I thought could go.

Um it'll be interesting to kind of go through the rest of the quiz and see what came out.

But to me, um, I like town homes are in a lot of them, and I just want to point out that in terms of affordability, the median list price of a town home in Sandy right now is 550,000.

According to the old rule of three years of wages, you have to make 183,000.

I don't know that that's affordable.

So I do think we are going to have to find um owner-occupied mid-rise units or mansion style units, um, if we're going to get to affordable housing.

One other comment I just want to make on the mountain style units that we're talking about.

Oh, it's so great because it it looks good in the neighborhood and fits.

I basically live across from a mansion style apartment that isn't one, but it's rented out by the room.

And so I just want I feel like a lot of this stuff is like we can talk about it and whatever, blah blah blah.

Until we're like, like when we were in daybreak, that was so such a meaningful experience because it's like, oh, this is what it feels like.

And if you come to my house, you would know that like, okay, it looks great in the neighborhood, but the way that it functions and operates, it is a burden on the neighborhood.

Did we tell you that James is in charge of enforcement as well?

It's all the quotes we write have to be approved.

It's fine.

I just wanted to make that comment in terms of like, yeah, it might look nice, but like the way that it functions uh can be a totally different story.

So um, but yeah, I'm huge on affordability too, just like our vision statement said.

So we're gonna have to go smaller than town homes.

And I think it's not just the building topologies, but also we're we're gonna have to talk about like the size.

Yeah, there's no question.

The smaller the square footage in the unit, the less expensive it is.

To me, everything isn't because that's it.

Something looks very, very different.

I'm trying to um you can take Newcastle, 106, then maybe Hidden Valley.

You know, those roads are very uh you drive up and down them, and there are some areas that are okay, and there's some areas that are very run down, and they look very, very different than 1370s or from Quail Creek Cove or whatever.

And so I mean, when you're looking in these areas, it's hard to say that you know, as a blanket we could approve in that and in this area it would work because it is very bound by what the neighborhood currently looks like.

Um, to go and plunk right in the middle of a neighborhood, a you know, a large apartment complex doesn't fit.

Um, but also looking at those corridor areas where they are fenced or bound, so along 13th east, you know, that's we hear nothing but complaints about residents along 13th east complaining about the traffic.

Um, and and those are you know, a lot of those single family homes.

Um, so with something where you are looking at rental units, is that going to be more successful there?

Um, are these rental houses?

You know, what does that look like?

So I think it is very contingent upon exactly which area you're looking at because it you know, the the Reams um neighborhood activity center right up there, you know, just as you're getting to enter in Willow Creek looks is very different than our Union Square on 7th and 94th.

Um, and what we may be willing to look at up there by Reams, um, maybe we'd be looking at something a little bit different on 94 and 7.

And I guess maybe what would be looking at 94 than seven density-wise, we may not think that that fits, even though you've got Highland Drive, you know, that is right there and then it's found.

Um, but there are some other areas, so where uh you know Union Heights is, you know, you've got 13th East, um 7800 south, you have a movie theater, you have apartments on one side, um, and then you also have another road that is in between an apartment complex.

So is there something that there's uh a higher density in that area that would probably fit a little bit more than it does even on that country square, just a mile down the road.

So I think a lot of it really depends on each area, but making sure that um whatever council is there, which is hard right now, because we're at the tail end of this council, um, but you know, to make sure that that is that it's intentional of what we are trying to do, and it sounds like I mean the state is going to come in and tell us what needs to be done, um, that what we have done is not enough, or we're looking at that.

So I mean it there's just there's still so many challenges, and it is hard.

It is hard, but I really am looking at that.

I mean, you know, I'm the one that when they come up and they ask for a rezone and they're trying to rebuild, you know, are you gonna do rental units or are you gonna do these for sale?

I'm asking those questions because to me that is very important on these smaller, specifically on these smaller lots, you know.

And and when I'm talking smaller, I'm talking, you know, I mean, we you know, six to eight units of what they're looking at.

Um, you know, obviously large apartment complexes are going to be primarily rent, but I mean that's that is an important thing for me.

But I think it's just hard.

Yes.

I would love talking about um owner occupancy or home ownership, super important, you know, from um from all of the I don't know, uh the the ability for people to like upward mobility in lives generationally, you know, owning a home is the number one driver for that, and so really important to preserve the opportunity for people to own homes.

Yes, apartment, you know, imagine style apartments can be difficult from a condo standpoint.

I know that the state, our state and other states aren't doing so many condos, you know, in the last however many years, and I know that we're that's a focus at the state too to try to figure out what barriers exist that prevent those ownership opportunities from from existing.

Um, but I I I do want to incentivize as much owner occupancy as possible.

Um, homeownership.

Um the one thing too, though, like I know that this has come up, but from a from an ownership standpoint, you're legally allowed to rent your property, you know, like it's you can buy it and then unless you've made a contract saying well, yes.

Well, and I was gonna say that there's I know that this gets into the how, but there's lots of ways of doing that.

Um, but one of the other things that I I don't know if this is getting too into the weeds, but I I wonder if it needs to be addressed in some of these um uh focus on home ownership and owner occupancy.

A lot of the newer developments that have more than you know, a couple of single family detached larger homes are in HOAs, even some of them, you know, those are in HOAs, and um not all HO well, I guess price point is one factor and and for first-time home buyers, but also the ability to get like FHA financing um is another factor, and not all of these associations are they qualify for FHA financing, and so you can easily um prevent a first-time home buyer um who may have better access to an FHA loan over a conventional loan, won't be able to access this property that's new that you know may work financially because it's in an HOA that doesn't qualify for financing.

So, you know, um I I just wanted to call that out as a as a thing to consider that's maybe in the weeds and not our spectrum but plays into the whole thing.

Um, the other thing too, daybreak, they have many like sub-HOAs for all of the different um builder developers, but they have a master HOA too, and that master HOA does require home um home ownership and owner occupancy for I think there's a it's a period of two years, so you can't have a rental at all until um you've at least owned it for two years.

You won't wouldn't qualify for the for the financing it's all like anyway.

Um, so that's a consideration.

Um I think FHA financing, you know, maybe Jake, you know this too, uh, from like the HOA standpoint, a lot of it has to do with the the number, the ratio of homeowners to renters too in that in that has to be relatively low renters, higher home homeownership to qualify for FHA.

So I just want to mention that.

Other thoughts.

I don't know if there's any other discussion, but um, just this is just food for thought, right?

We're gonna the next workshop, we're we're gonna try to do you know some test fits, we're gonna try to come back and say, hey, here are some options on the how.

But but between now and then, what I ask you to think about is um what are the concessions that you're willing to give in order to achieve the vision that we drafted last week?

We're we're not gonna achieve it, in my opinion.

If as a city, we're not willing to concede on anything, right?

If we just say, hey, uh owner occupancy in all of these new units, and we are uh gonna go through each one with a fine-toothed comb.

There's no standard process.

We're probably not going to be very successful with that, right?

Because we're not conceding anything, there's no incentive for whoever's building those to do that, they're just gonna say, no, I'm gonna do whatever the easiest thing is to do because there's a time cost, right, associated with that.

And so if we truly are concerned about uh building a bigger variety of housing, more housing, and it being owner-occupied, which is what was in the vision, um, we're gonna have to come up with some concessions.

We're gonna have to say, hey, here are here's a standard process, or it this is my opinion, but we're gonna have to say in the standard pro here's a standard process that you can go through.

And if you do XYZ, we'll give you this.

And if you don't want to do XYZ, then you get whatever's offered, right?

Um, and so I I just encourage you to think about that.

What are some concessions to be going to make?

And if there aren't any, that's your call.

You're the policy makers, but just understand that without incentives, without concessions, we're probably in the same place we are right now.

And can you recruit anything?

Um that issue of how to mandate owner occupancy, would that be successful?

Is there a way to at least bar institutional buyers?

Have you could you can you can sorry you can contract for owner occupancy?

Institutional buyers aren't owner occupants.

Yeah.

So that would at least bar someone from my multiple units with sole per investors with a sole purple suit for if you if there was a uh in a bill last session that said for the first 30 days of the list period, it had to be purchased by an owner occupant.

I don't think it passed, yeah.

Well, but take the example that Dustin gave.

If they've got if your zoning right now allows eight units, they're entitled to build that no conditions.

But if you're willing to give 16 units, right?

Yeah, you haven't given it yet.

But if he says, can I get 16 units and you say, yeah, if you'll guarantee me that they're gonna be owner-occupied, an institutional investor is not gonna buy three units because he can't meet the condition.

If you'll guarantee me that they're going to be owner-occupied, an institutional investor is not going to buy three units because he can't meet the condition.

So by doing the contract or the agreement, that would bar that would make it so none of the outside investors could come in and pick up three or four of them to rent out because they they couldn't occupy three units.

But you could also too lend the example that they use the option of the legislature is if you have eight and you give them 16.

That's because eight of the 16 will be owner occupied and have incentives for first-time home buyers.

Depends on what the terms of your bargain.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you may ask for owner occupancy, you may ask for portability, you may ask for starter home.

And it's a question of what is it you want to see at that location.

So but those that that gets into our discussion number five, which is how are we going to do this?

So James or Jake, anything else you want to add to this.

Do you feel like we have received the direction we need?

This one for sure.

Yeah, we've got a good direction and a good discussion.

Cindy so excited to see what happens.

Thank you all.

I appreciate this discussion.

Uh I'll turn the time back to you.

I think our next uh and we hope last housing workshop is scheduled for November 18th.

Uh that date works out.

That's the office we're discussing.

Thank you.

Thank you, everybody, for participating in this.

Um, we do have some regular council business that we need to get through tonight.

Uh the first thing would be our public comment period.

I do have a blue card from Patricia Jones.

Um, and so I don't have anybody any other cards.

If there's anybody else that would like to speak, please fill out a card and bring it up.

Um, where I was gonna say, are you gonna bring it to her?

All speakers will have the same three minutes to speak.

Yes.

Thank you.

Thank you.

First, I want to thank uh the council members and everybody else here for um spending so much time on our behalf of the growth of the of Sandy.

Thank you very much.

And I can tell that this is a huge project, expanding it covers so many aspects, you know.

So it's not an easy thing for all of you.

So thank you.

So talking about the affordability on housing, I I do hear that some of you are that's it.

That's a criteria for for some of you.

And I want to add on to that home ownership brings pride to a person, especially a young person.

It increases their sense of responsibility, their drive to do better in their life in their work, and especially with when they have the desire to start a family.

So that is very important.

And the other thing is I want to share with you is something that I came across, which may or may not affect, but I do see that it does affect this discussion for all of you to consider.

And some of you may already are aware of this.

So I just came across this um information that I received.

Um, auditor Tina Cannon, you know that she is our state auditor.

And some of you may know Seth Overson, who is a um uh a supervisor in the auditor's office.

So both of them presented on independent entities and public infrastructure districts in short, it is PID.

They said the total amount due by Utah taxpayers on the PIDs is now 3.8 billion.

Now, this comes from the state auditor's office, so they have audited that, right?

So we can kind of take that as a factor 3.8 billion.

A PID is a way that developers can finance the cost of the infrastructure in their project.

It used to be if a developer wanted to develop a piece of land, they would have to get investors to finance the project.

This new option allows the developer to pass the cost on to the citizens.

Bear in mind, we're talking here, citizens, maybe the new young homeowners.

So allows the developer to pass the cost on to the citizens that buy within that project area.

This is a tax in addition to property tax.

It is unbelievable that this economic model has been allowed with the cost of homes and food so high, it is further increasing the cost of living, and it allows the developer to act like a quasi government governmental entity and issue bonds that the taxpayer is on the hope for.

So this is many ways does affect your discussion here.

Is there any?

I don't I have no idea whether there's there are any PIDs in Sandy already.

I I don't know.

Um all have in mind that maybe some development when you stop exercising this uh yes this project to go ahead and um they may ask for PIDs.

So uh it is something that you may want to consider and discuss.

Thank you.

Thank you, Pat.

Uh next we have Jane Harigo.

Airbox.

Whoa, real quick.

Thank you, everybody who serves on the committee and extending their time to um just plan for our community.

We can tell that this is a very difficult thing to look so far in the future and plan for our children and our grandchildren.

Um one of the things I just wanted to bring up is we were talking about the ADUs, but I wasn't hearing in the conversation, and this is my first time with uh attending.

So if they have been in the previous conversation, so I'll just ask.

Um with ADU solving for X that we're trying to provide more homes and housing for our communities.

Has there been any conversations or safeguards to prevent those APs being used as um Airbnbs for people who don't go to our beautiful uh you know country and notes and scores and stuff like that online?

Uh if you're joining us virtually this evening and you'd like to comment on any city business, go ahead and click the raise hand button on your screen now.

I'll call your name in the order in which you raise your hand and you'll have three minutes to address the council.

Thank you.

Yeah, I'm sure I don't see any hands raised.

Okay, thank you.

Then we'll go ahead and close the public comment portion of this meeting and bring it back to council business.

So next on the agenda is the consent calendar.

We have two items, which are the approval of the September 30th and the September 16th draft meeting minutes.

If anybody has a motion, I move for you about one second calendar.

Very cool.

Great.

We have a motion and a second for that.

Um, all in favor say aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Any opposed.

All right, the consent calendar is an approved.

Um the the last item is a a possible closed session, but we're gonna go through standing reports first and then we'll come to that and and go there.

So from standing reports, are you okay to start, Dustin?

And then we'll just kind of go that way.

Sure, sure.

Uh, I don't have a big report this evening, just a couple of things.

Reminder that next Tuesday is a tour with Nestro Water.

We'll be eating dinner there prior to the meeting.

Uh we're going to do uh the council's Christmas photo.

So Chris is gonna reach out, she hasn't already showed each other through some details about that.

And then everybody will just drive up and meet at uh Metro.

We're not gonna take the bus up there.

Um the only other thing I'll mention is um I will be I won't be in the office next week.

Uh, our staff will be here, so if there are any issues that you can address, you can reach out to council staff.

I won't have cell reception, and so if you reach out to me, I will get back to you as soon as I get back now.

Um that's all that I have to thank you.

Brian, do you have anything?

Uh just a big thank you to uh police department, our first responders uh for the incident that we had uh shortly over in uh uh main street park.

So thank you very much for your response and for attending to the uh residents.

Thank you.

Ummittee, so we had our heritage festival a week and a half ago, and historic committee had their meeting after that, and they really wanted to relay their appreciation to Katie Atkinson.

Um, and uh working with at B.

Tree Park, um, but getting uh you know all of that together, so they were just very keen on that and a lot of energy and James here's about the energy that they have as well.

Um had a chance to uh as well to um Mike Blackbox Memorial.

Um it was uh it was it was touching to see how much how much of Sandy was in that map.

Um a section was just dedicated to Sandy City and what he had done there and and how much he had gone back to Miriam at home and and relate a lot of stories.

Um we have uh there's a a lot of employees here to put many, many, many years into the city and how they carry that and where that would try.

So it was just it was very touching.

We had our uh pancake breakfast at station 31.

So, you know, there were a lot of people there.

It just seemed to kind of trickle through, you know, it was very well attended.

Um quite exciting, you know, a lot of new things, and hopefully in the next couple of weeks.

It'll be a regularly no hustle bustle, um, you know, station and and getting everything moved over, but you know, it looks beautiful, a couple little finishing touches that need to happen on there, but it's like a a beautiful new station, you know, very open and um and you can see the the planning that we involved with you know just the mental health component, but also you know, looking at the layout itself of the building.

So that was that's great.

Um, and then also I don't know, I think it may street last night, still losing fire, quickly responding and working on that.

You know, there are things that happen in the city, and the amount of work and effort and time that goes into that is it's not lost.

We appreciate everything that's that they do in the middle of the night, darkness of the night, and uh take care of the city and the meetings be done.

Um so speaking of the fire station uh open house ribbon cutting, you know, that really was um an amazing event to see the hard work that that all of us, you know, council members, administration have put in over the years um to see that come to real life fruition.

Uh was really really great.

You know, I I've been on the council for three point seven five years at this point, and already, you know, with the public works department and the fire station and you know, work on the um Alta Canyon Sports Center, we've done a lot in the in a really you know short amount of time and as we're having conversations, continuing to have these difficult conversations about housing, like this is this is what we've done, and these conversations are difficult and they can be arduous and they can be nuanced and and you know detailed and we have figured out how to how to work together to to see it done.

So I just wanted to say I'm I'm excited for the city.

I am proud of us as a council.

I am proud of us as a city and um I am happy to have been a part of Saturday.

So go ahead.

You're here.

Can we have an award?

Yeah, somebody have a fine public or fire station 31, Alta Canyon.

Somebody gave us an award.

Uh appreciate that.

I'll let Marcy talk about the grand opening at the Walmart because he played such an important part on that.

I appreciate your the role that you played there.

Um I too was lucky enough to be able to go to Mike Gladbox visitation.

And what surprised me when I walked in, Larkin was I walked in, wasn't sure where to go, and I heard laughing down the hallway.

How often do you walk into a setting like that near your laugh?

But it was nice to find that that was our group, and it was people just enjoying their conversations and their stories about mine.

And many generation of Sandy employees were there too, quite a few over the years.

It's very nice to be able to go there.

Um really nice uh fire station 31, the hose cutting.

That was that was a lot of fun.

It felt um really it was a great celebration to be able to mark that occasion.

Thank you for all the firefighters that were there and and all the chiefs that were there.

It was a great great occasion.

I enjoyed myself, and I know all the members of the public did as well.

All right, you're too.

Um so yes, uh, we got to participate in the Walmart, the grand opening of their new fuel station.

Um what I was surprised to learn is they donated money.

Was it 1500?

Yeah, yeah.

It was the fire.

Fire.

I was looking for fire, sorry, it maybe all I'm on.

So it's and to Sandy Matt.

Sorry.

It's Greg Matt.

Anyway, so that was a pleasant surprise that Walmart, you know, gave back to the community in two notable ways, one of which was to our fire department, the other was to Sandy Elementary, um, which was really really cool.

Um that Walmart, you know, gave back to the community in two notable ways, one of which was to our fire department, the other was to Sandy Elementary, um, which was really really cool.

And it was just great to acknowledge them and their efforts and um the fact that it takes a team to pull something off like that.

So it was great to be a part of.

And speaking of team, tonight's workshop, like thank you.

There was so much intention behind the design.

Um and the facilitation.

I am I love a rich like collaborative conversation that has structure and purpose, outcomes, next steps.

This checked all the boxes, so thank you.

I know I know how much time and thinking goes into pulling a body of seven and eight elected officials together to to move us in a productive direction.

So uh I appreciate that.

And I know I said this to fire, but publicly I was not able to attend.

I was the only council member, and I feel bad about that.

Um not able to attend Fire Station 31.

I am pursuing my MBA um at BYU, and I have classes every other weekend, and I had to be in class, so I missed the the hose cutting.

Um, but it doesn't mean I wasn't celebrating.

I keep looking at you, and you're not paying attention here, Martin.

You know I you know I'm curious.

Wow, thank you.

Well, pancakes for amazing, right?

Yes.

Anyway, that's all I have then I'm sure.

Thank you.

Um, Erin.

Uh yeah, I'll just say that it was great attending the ULCT conference.

Uh the first I heard about the America 250 Utah.

Shane, are we or Kim?

Are we in that?

Have we signed up and whatever?

Yeah.

Um okay, cool.

So the council will need to pass a resolution if we're gonna go along with that.

It says on the website that there's like limited funding available.

So um, given our nation's 250th birthday is coming up, we'll probably want to um get along with that.

But also, I just want to say in regards to that conference, thanks so much for Jake uh for doing the presentation that he did on uh aging in place.

It was really, really good.

There were lots of uh uh great things that came up in terms of that, but um, you know, digesting all that still and thinking about it in terms of what we're gonna do for the housing workshop.

There were so many um good ideas from um E from creating a housing authority to Mill Creek, um, literally dividing duplexes into twin homes, which I think maybe you were alluding to that at some point today.

Uh someone was um, but yeah, there's there's a lot of useful information from that, and uh I just wanted to say um thanks to Jake do it.

Thank you, Erin, and now we have the mayor's report.

Okay, um, so I just wanted to add on the fire station 31 comments, it was a wonderful event.

Some of the best pancakes that I've ever had, and I don't even really like pancakes.

So thank you to the team and the women that uh I don't know who made that decision to take like that cement mixer in a bucket or just like when you make pancakes in a five-gallon bucket, they're amazing.

I have so anyways, um, and then the ribbon cutting, adding the host to that was great, and then um little fire balloon was really a nice addition too.

Um those were Shanna donated those, but that was really nice.

Um service ambassadors met with the Sandy Youth Council last week.

It was a joint meeting.

It was amazing to have the um the seasoned volunteers with the younger volunteers, and they exchanged ideas, they shared experiences, and then they did a service project for veterans together, and they really really appreciated it.

And I think when they first came in, the the um youth council and the ambassadors were both they each were talking to Sarah and I and to Chris saying, why are we here?

Why are we doing this together?

Even though they wanted to, but they really did enjoy it.

So we're gonna make that an annual thing.

So that was really great.

Um, and then it congratulations again to community development for um the APA Outstanding Plan Award.

Um, I have the honor of going with council member De Kaiser and uh Brian and Mike to accept this award last week at the depot, and um very nice and well-deserved award.

I know we all played a huge role in all the touch points on that, but it was nice to be a part of that downtown at the depot.

So that's all I have.

Thank you.

Thank you, uh Shane Steve.

I have nothing.

Okay, can I take a minute of his time?

No, yes.

No, I just wanted to introduce the council, Tim.

Oh, yeah, thank you.

Uh this is Dan Nelson, our new real property manager.

With brilliant idea from the legal department.

Uh so I wanted to meet and he just started on Monday.

We've already put him to work.

Uh he'll participate in the closed door session, if I guess welcome.

I've got a former champion for the position.

I I've heard it for a while.

Okay, so now that we're done with the council member business or not council member, but fanning reports.

Uh is anybody have a motion for a possible closed session.

I move that we move it, go into a closed session to discuss the character, professional competence, or mental or physical health of an individual, um, as well as pending a reasonably imminent litigation, as well as the purchase, exchange, or lease of real property.

It's city hall in the council office area.

Second office.

Madam Chair, that remember, sorry.

Um, can I amend that to say that um with adjournment?

No, no, we adjournment at the end of the end of the closed session.

Is that what you were gonna say or no?

No, I was gonna say we just need to have a roll call vote.

We're happy to do that with the ready.

All right, Madam Chair.

Let me make sure that the following staff are included in the closed door session.

That would be Kim Bell, Lynn Base, of course, Dan Nielsen, um, Chief Sieverson, John Arnold, um, who am I missing?

Martin Jeff Robinson.

Yeah, Jeff Robinson, thank you.

And then Martin, uh Jenberry.

Not everybody.

Okay, motion second.

Um okay, roll call vote.

Who was doing that tonight?

I'll take care of it.

Sure.

Uh Councilmember Kaiser?

Yes.

Councilmember Houseman?

Yes.

Councilmember Sharkey.

Yes.

Councilmember D'Souza.

Yes.

Councilmember Shroud.

Yes.

Councilmember Miko.

Yes.

And Councilmember Robinson.

Yes.

Give us five minutes to get the Zoom board left.

Okay.

That's the first order.