Hey everybody, we're gonna get started here in just a minute.

And he worked in the district office for that's she was there for years and then went to Alpha.

She was a media specialist in the district court media specialist, and then she's hi, good to see you.

Um and then she went to Alpha.

And then she got her teaching ahead and then taught it right and then conference.

Yes.

Yeah.

I don't wish you the best.

Good luck.

All right.

I just did it.

Recording in progress.

Madam Chair, we're ready whenever you're ready.

Welcome everyone.

This is the Sandy City Council meeting for Tuesday, April twenty-eighth, twenty twenty-six.

Um we have a little bit of an out-of-the-ordinary um schedule for tonight.

Let me tell you what it will be.

Council is receiving training on budgeting in our council mayor form of government.

Then we will, after that concludes, we will be taking general citizen comment.

Um, then we will move on to standing reports, and then finally we have a closed session on the agenda after that.

So that's the sequence of events.

Um, we start all our meetings with prayer and a pledge.

Who would like to volunteer to give us the prayer for this evening?

Miss Christianson, go ahead.

Please help us to be able to understand the things that are placed before us and to take them into our uh budgeting process.

Please bless you, make good choices that will better our city, and please bless all of the employees that they would be as safe as they are doing their jobs.

We love thee, and we say these things in the name of thy son, Jesus Christ.

Amen.

Will everyone please rise for the pledge?

I pledge allegiance to the United States of America.

And to the Republic for which it stands.

All right.

And introductions are next.

Dustin, would you like to kick us off?

Of course, thank you, Madam Chair.

Dustin Fradto, I'm with the City Council office.

There are a couple other council staff members in the back of the room, Justin Sorensen and Liz Terriel.

And then our clerk, Chris Edwards, is just back in the offices right now, taking minutes from there.

Good evening.

I'm Tracy.

I'm counsel for the council.

Chris Nickel, District Three.

Marcy Houseman, District Four.

Brooke Christensen, District One.

Cindy Sharkey at large.

Alison Stroud, District Two.

Brooke D'Souza at large.

Erin DeKaiser at large.

Hi, I'm Mayor Monica Zeltansky.

Shane Pace, City Administrator.

Jeff Robinson sitting in for Lynn.

Please.

All right.

We're gonna go ahead and get right into our agenda.

Dustin, I think you're gonna introduce our speakers and the agenda item.

Please do so.

Yes, happy to do that, Madam Chair.

First, just a thanks to Councilmember Nickel.

She's the one who suggested that we have Carrie and Frank come in and present to us on uh budgeting in our form of government.

So big shout out to uh councilmember Nickel.

Uh but really quickly, I just want to introduce uh Carrie and Frank Neckam or other Nakamura and associates uh together.

They have a combined are you ready for this?

65 years of experience in municipal government, which is crazy.

It is Tracy, it's hard to believe.

Uh Frank worked his entire career in our form of government, and uh Carrie has had the opportunity to work in multiple forms of government in the state on both the legislative and the executive side of the ledger.

Uh as in their consulting role now, they have the opportunity to uh travel all over the state and provide uh budgetary training to uh cities all across the state, and so we're happy to have them here.

And with that, I'll turn the time over to uh Kerry.

Thank you very much.

And is someone pulling up our training slide deck?

Yes, Liz is gonna pull them up right now.

Wonderful.

Thank you.

Um I ask you a question.

Do you prefer questions along the way or would you like us to hold them until the end?

So I prefer questions along the way.

The problem is that that slows us down, and so if I know that I'm going to be answering it later, I'll say I'm gonna answer that in just a minute, even though we'll pause and take the question at the time.

I'm here, I want to provide you the information you want.

Um, and so if it means we don't get all the way done, that's great.

With that in mind, um, I didn't realize you had council agenda items after.

And so, how long would you like us to take this evening?

This is the only item on our agenda.

The rest are just typical things that we would do, except for the closed session, which is staff afterwards.

So we're focused entirely on this topic this evening.

We'd indicated to ourselves and our staff that we should plan on two to three hours.

Perfect.

Perfect.

And then what I will do along the way is stop and ask if you want a break, okay?

Or if I need a break, I'll let you know that I need a break.

Um, but with that, I want to thank you for inviting us this evening.

Um, as Dustin said, uh, we do a lot of training now that we've stepped away from our our day jobs in government.

Frank was uh for a lot of years with the Salt Lake City Attorney's Office, and then the last 20 years, uh 20, 22 years of his career as the Murray City attorney.

So both times working in this council mayor form of government.

I love the council mayor form of government.

It's where I got my start in government.

Um with the with the actually that's not true.

I started in West Jordan, but my my first professional job was in the council mayor form of government in Salt Lake City.

Um I've worked with a lot of different governments.

I've worked actually with governments also internationally.

Um, and I can tell you as I go through uh there are certain truths in government that that come out, and it's that you never have enough money or people, right?

That's what we hear everywhere we go.

Everybody always wants to know how can I get more resources for what we're trying to do.

I don't have magic bullets for that, but I have a lot of um different things we can talk about that that you might want to consider as a council.

And Mayor, with all due respect tonight, I'm gonna be focusing a lot on the council's role because that's what I was asked to do.

And and Frank will spend some time really uh level setting and framing between the two different branches of government.

So with that, if you've been in my trainings before, you've probably seen some of the material, so some of it may be a refresher for you, but we really did uh kind of do a deep dive into the legislative role.

And I think we have a scout in the audience tonight, right?

Are you working on a bad working on a mayor?

Student.

Okay.

I I'm sorry, you have to sit through a three-hour budget training.

Except I love budgets, and I think it's really exciting.

And so let's just jump right in.

Uh let's see.

There we go.

Um, this is this.

I'm taking the base of this presentation from an align and shine series that I've done uh for the Utah League of Cities and Towns, and it's where we really want to talk about transparency in the budgets and aligning our budgets with our policy goals, because that's where I've spent my career, and that's what's the most fun to me is helping elected officials uh get their policy agenda done because none of you ran for office because there wasn't something you wanted to do.

Um, and I am not brave enough to put my name on a ballot.

You will never see my name on a ballot, but I have spent my career helping elected officials get their policy agenda accomplished, and I think the most effective way to do that is through the budget, quite honestly.

So that's why I spend a lot.

Oh, sorry, a lot of my time even with councils and on the council side.

And I don't know where that little frog came from.

Um this is just a quick look at tonight's agenda.

I'm not going to read through everything, uh, but we are going to start with that council powers and duties in the mayor council form of government, and then we'll just go as far as we can get, and if we wear out before we're done, uh we'll we'll call it quits.

I know some of you were at the Utah League of Cities and Towns last week and you saw truth in taxation.

The portion I've put in here on truth in taxation is very abbreviated compared to what you saw last week.

Be lucky that you're not seeing truth in taxation in all of its glory tonight.

Um I did have some learning objectives uh for the council tonight.

Um I want you to have a deepened understanding of your role in the mayor council form of government and specifically explore some tools that you can use for council fiscal and policy oversight.

And then we're going to talk through the budget process in a way that would that will really highlight and emphasize the council's role in that budget process and then deepen your um understanding of revenue planning back to that back to that notion of uh having resources.

So, with that, Frank, I'm gonna turn the next few minutes over to you to talk through the mayor council uh form of government.

Tell me when you want me to advance the slide.

Okay.

By the way, I have to tell you, this has been the most fun part of my life because Frank was always the city attorney, you know, and I was off doing whatever I was doing.

And then when I started my consultancy, Carrie Nakamura and Associates, uh, it was really just me for a long time doing it, and then I I got one job and I said to Frank, you could really help me if you would come and help me with this.

So he became an associate, and now I love that.

I love that he's my associate.

Um, but the credit card, and I hate to say this on the public record, but it's kind of funny.

The credit card can't spell out associate, so it says Carrie Nakamura and ass.

So there you go.

Uh yeah, Frank Nakamura.

I am the associate.

Um I uh wanted to, you know, I went to the dentist this morning and I told Carrie, hey, if I go to the dentist, am I gonna be able to speak at this meeting?

And she said, you better be able to speak.

So I wanted to tell you that in advance because I don't hopefully the words will come out right, but if they don't, please bear with me.

I I had some dental work done today.

Um thank you for inviting me uh today.

Um I spent 32 years in the council mayor form of government, um, and that's your form of government.

And as a uh city uh attorney, I I understand that this form of government is cumbersome, and it has some built-in friction uh between the two branches.

However, uh I think it and I may be biased, but I think it's the best form of government.

Uh the alternative uh concentrates too much power uh in one place.

And in this form of government, you are forced to compromise.

And I understand it it is, there's friction.

And I know that that's empathetic to the city attorneys that have to deal with that daily.

And so I understand that.

My purpose today is to just provide you some background for Kerry's presentation on budgeting, which is one of the authority and responsibility in exercising your legislative power.

And although the the background that I providing you is basic, I think it's important sometimes to step back.

You all know the powers of uh legislative branch and executive, you know that.

But I think sometimes it's good to step back, see the big picture, focus on uh the general powers and what you are asked to do.

And so uh in my experience, I think it it oper the mayor council form of government or the council mayor form of government operates effectively if you exercise those powers, number one, number two, you understand what those powers are, and that uh it requires some self-restraint that you know where you shouldn't be stepping in terms of executive authority and the executive branch should exercise the same self-restraint and not step into the legislative uh branch, and then there are times where it's a gray area, and uh you uh have to uh get maybe an illegal opinion as to that.

Uh I also understand that uh you have uh access to some of the most respected city attorneys in the state of Utah.

Um Tracy, uh Lynn, Jeff, I've worked with all of you uh over the past years.

They're well respected, certainly understand and have the expertise.

So if you have specific questions, I know that you will be able to go to them and get an opinion uh as to what is legislative and what's executive.

So with that, we'll we're gonna just be very basic, so bear with me.

Uh the powers of the council are found in Title 10, Chapter 3B, part two of the Utah Code.

Um the code uh, well, it sort of stems from a case that I think Jeff and Tracy and Lynn cite all the time, Martindale versus Anderson, and uh that case made it uh clear that uh your form of government, that the council and the mayor are separate, equal, independent branches of government, and that the council is a policy-making, they have policy-making authority, policy making.

And I I think I want to clarify that even it's general policy-making authority, and the mayor has policy execution authority.

And so, how do you how do you exercise your policy-making authority?

Well, number one, you enact laws.

There are express powers given to the council.

You are uh political subdivisions of the state of Utah, but they the with the express authority that they give you, you also have the necessary authority, not just the express, the necessary authority to do what is needed to protect the public welfare of your community.

Now, uh I will grant it there are there's laws in in statute that do limit your authority and certain areas of the law uh the law by statute that you're preempted by uh state law by state and county uh uh what they they work that they do.

But overall, I think you have broad power, and uh she said, understand that you you can make laws to protect the public welfare.

Um secondly, um you have the power of appropriation of funds.

And Kerry, this is what Kerry will talk about uh in her presentation, and probably will be the bulk of the the training, the power of appropriation.

Um the mayor and the staff cannot spend money without an appropriation, cannot enter contracts, it's subject to appropriation.

Um remember this is policy making.

You were using this as a policy making, the policy direction of the city, and so you are exercising this power of appropriation.

It's it's not just numbers, it is a a power to set the general policy of the city.

You have the power to review administration, you can ask for reports, you can do investigations.

Uh you have the power of you have advice and consent power over the appointment of department directors and uh the department uh heads.

Now, what you cannot do is you cannot fire or hire employees of the mayor.

You cannot interfere with the uh or order uh the mayor's staff, uh, mayor employees and interfere with the performance of the day-to-day operations of the city.

And oddly, that was one of the issues that I used to deal with uh when I was in the city is that uh the council members would contact city employees directly, and uh that by protocol should go to the mayor.

Um you cannot act individually.

The mayor can act individually, the council has to act as a group.

And so I just say that.

I mean that but as you speak or as you act, uh you better make sure that you're uh not speaking on behalf of the council or you're acting uh in your own individual capacity.

That needs to be made clear.

Um so uh on the one of the uh the powers I want to talk about is the veto power, the mayor has veto power and and can as uh the checks and balances veto a law veto a tax levy uh veto and appropriation.

Uh now you have the right, then within uh the mayor has 15 days to veto an ordinance or a a uh tax levy or an appropriation, and then you have in the next meeting the power to uh overturn that veto on a two-thirds vote.

Uh so um again it's it's checks and balances.

I um I know I know it's it's it's it's friction, it's it's set up that way, uh, because it's checks and balances.

But in my experience, um I've been in sitting in that role.

I I have never been involved in a lawsuit where the council or the mayor sued each other.

Uh there's never never been in my experience in 32 years.

Now, you know, of course there's been for serious disputes, but ultimately they were resolved.

Um I know that you have uh council uh different from the city attorney.

Uh that has never been my experience, but I that's that's fine.

Um but again I I think that ultimately it despite differences, uh I think you generally do respect uh what your authority is, what your power is, um, and uh the matters get resolved.

You know, I I still think this is the best way to make decisions for your uh uh residents.

So with that, turn the back time back over to Kerry.

Thank you, Frank.

So now let's jump into budget.

So what is a budget?

And at its core, a lot of people just think the budget's you know, a book full of numbers.

Um you take last year's numbers adjust them a little bit and put them forward for this year.

But if that's how you view the budget, you're really missing the magic and the beauty of the budget.

Because the budget is really the place where you plan for your goals, and it's where you make your goals happen.

Um, and it's also it, you know, the way that you show the community what you value and the way that you show the community what your what you're moving forward with as a community, the way you communicate with them, how you're spending their dollars.

Um, and in Sandy, as in a lot of other governments, the budget includes a lot of different funds, and this is kind of a piece that I'm adding into the training now because there Cam asked me last week.

Cam Deal asked me to do a whole session on funds, and I said, Cam, I cannot spend 50 minutes talking about funds, and but you know what, we we did, and there were a lot of great questions, and people seem to like it.

So, so you're the first one that I'm training in this new way to say your budget isn't just your general fund because most of you spend most of your time talking about the general fund, but Sandy is not different than other communities.

That your budget is actually, as you know, lots of different funds that come together.

So I always like to show this.

Um, you don't need to tell me as a community what you value.

I can look at your budget and I can see where you spend your money, and I can tell you what you value just by looking at where your money goes.

And I always share this slide because what can you tell about me by looking at where I spend my money?

What do you know about me?

Travel, that's right.

If you would have seen my training 10 years ago, um that travel number was very small, and tuition was very large because I had children in college at the time, and I was helping pay their tuition.

But you can look at this now and you can say, at this point of Carrie's life, she values travel.

I loathe bank fees.

You can see that.

I do not like to pay bank fees, and in fact, those bank fees that I pay are credit cards that help me earn the points to travel.

So that's why I'm willing to pay them.

I've done the calculation and I'm willing to pay those bank fees because of what I get for travel out the other side of them.

Um, and and you can see other things.

I don't love to pay tons of money for vehicles.

Uh, we don't drive expensive cars, we never have.

That's not something we value.

We'd rather put our money into travel.

This isn't right or wrong, right?

And in your community, it's the same way.

It's not a right or a wrong, it's choices that are made, and it's what we value, and it's it's where we spend our resources.

So this is just five different communities.

What I did not do is spend time pulling big communities because I usually do a lot of these trainings for smaller, and they go crazy when I'm always showing them big community numbers.

So I've tailored it to a smaller community, and I wanted to spend my time pulling your numbers rather than going and getting a other bunch of other big cities.

But you would see the same thing if these were larger communities.

You can see what these communities value by where they're spending their money.

Um, the the one on the top bar and the bottom bar, lots of money on roads.

You know, if we go to that community, we'll probably see a lot of road work being done in those communities.

Um, it's interesting to me the one that's the it's labeled number two, but it's the fourth one down.

What a large appropriation to fund balance.

I'm not really sure what that was about.

Um, if I were the the residents of that community, I would be asking about the lost opportunities there, uh, why we were putting so much of that total budget into fund balance rather than spending it.

Um, you can see their public safety.

Some of them have they some of them like the top one probably doesn't self-provide at all.

Um, they probably contract with somebody, but then you can see the public safety numbers.

So, again, not right or wrong, uh, but you can just see the values of those communities based on their expenditures, just like you can my personal budget, just like we could your budget if we took a uh look at it.

The other thing I like to talk about is that planning matters, all kinds of municipal planning matters, but budget planning matters too, and it's really tough when when you can't get that stuff lined up, right?

And in budget, it's probably not as clear if you like the bridge that if you didn't plan it properly, it doesn't line up, but over time it will be that dramatic if you don't get the the policy and the numbers lined up and moving in the same direction.

You'll never get to where you're trying to go if you don't do that.

And and I think as I've looked at Sandy's information, you do a pretty good job of laying out where you're headed.

Um I would assume that you do a pretty good job of putting the numbers to that.

So these are kind of the ways that we set budget policy, and it is focused on the governing body, as Frank said at that broad policy level, the governing body sets the policy.

Um, you should provide direction, legislative direction to the administration.

As I've read through your budget timeline, it looks like you do.

It looks like Dustin, you have some sessions in kind of the January, February era where you lay that out for the coming year of what your legislative budget priorities are, and you let in your case the mayor know, or another executive in the community know, so that they can start to build things around your policy direction.

There are a lot of different tools you can use: strategic plans, goal statements, policy statements, legislative intent statements, and of course the budget appropriation.

I would say that when you give your direction, it should be intentional.

You should make sure that you're not just happening into it, but that it's you're you're very intentional about the direction that you give.

And I do think you should go back out and make sure that it meets community need.

I saw in your budget that you guys have some, and we'll get to it later, but you have some goals around public communication and making sure that you understand what it is that the public wants from you that you're serving, and that helps you actually let your services not get stale, because there's nothing worse than continuing to provide a service and then learning that nobody really cares that you provided that service, right?

Um, and so that's the intentionality around it and the meeting the community needs.

I like to have measurements that and I want those measurements to be achievable.

Because if you I mean, I always say that which gets measured gets done, right?

I mean, weight watchers figured that out, right?

That's why you go in, you weigh in.

Because if you measure it, it gets done.

And that is no different than in the role you have as a legislative body.

If you're measuring it, it probably will be worked on, it probably will get done.

And so if you care about it, then sit down, create a smart measure, and and then have that measure so that over time you can measure that you're making progress toward your policy goal.

If you only think about the budget in May and June, you're really probably not having a policy-driven budget.

When you look at this budget cycle that I have on the slide right now, May and June are the two blue parts.

So if you're just aligning resources to goals in the tentative budget and then doing your tentative budget process and adopting your formal budget, that's from what the the first Tuesday of May until June 30th.

If you're not going through truth and taxation, that's how long that period of time is.

If that is when you focus on the budget, you're probably not policy-driven.

You're probably not really making sure that the policies are driving and then being implemented throughout the budget.

And we'll talk about some ways that you can be more policy-driven later in the presentation.

So when you think about budget policy, I think it is the most important role of the council.

I mean, I know if Meg Ryan were standing here, she would tell you zoning is that zoning is the most important thing you do.

I disagree.

I think it is budget, I think it's the appropriation.

Um, it is in my view why I would run for office if ever I thought that I would run for office, um, so that I could be part of the budgeting process and putting those goals, you know, funding those priorities to get them moved forward.

And again, I just really want to emphasize in budget policy, there is not a right or a wrong answer.

Um, there might be some best practice guidance, but there's not a right or a wrong answer.

And then your staff, and I've been on a council staff in a council mayor form of government actually a couple of times, and your staff can help you coalesce as a body because the legislative branch is always the power of you know enough votes to act as a body, it's never one individual legislator.

I mean, you see it at state, one can't do it, you see it on your council, you see it at the county council.

I mean, it takes the council coming together, and your staff can really help you coalesce into that area where you're moving as a body and you're putting things forward as a body.

And then the hard truth is that staff should never substitute its policy goals for the council goals or for a council member goals, and and I will tell you, I like municipal council mayor form of government, actually, even better than I liked working in the counties council mayor form of government because where you had nine partisan uh council members, partisan, and each of them at a time, they've changed it now, but each of them had their own staff.

There was a lot of staff substituting what they wanted for like where the member was going, and there were famous conversations where I would be as when I was representing a council member, I would always say to staff in a staff meeting, is that what your boss wants, or is that what you want?

And there were famous conversations where I would be as when I was representing a council member, I would always say to staff in a staff meeting, is that what your boss wants, or is that what you want?

Because when I talk to your boss or my bosses talk to your boss, we haven't heard that.

Um, and so I think that that's one thing, you know, and and for staff, staff has to remember that that we have to step back.

We're staff, we help the council coalesce, but we do not substitute our own direction or feelings for where the council's trying to go.

So this is kind of a breakdown of budget policy making, and you can see the first is to establish your budget policy.

That's kind of in that January to February time frame that we talked about.

You could have an annual goal setting session with the council.

I would say that if you do that, please include all your funds, not just the general fund.

Talk about what you want to accomplish in like your water or your sewer or the other funds that you have.

You could create a five-year plan that you review and update annually.

I don't know if you do that in Sandy.

I like five-year plans.

I like five year look back look forward.

I know others in public budgeting and public finance don't like five.

They think five's too hard to look out to.

I like five.

And I like five because it gets me out of four, which is an election cycle.

It makes me think beyond an election cycle.

Um, and so I kind of like that having a moving, you know, five year, but always doing a five-year look back and look forward so that we can start to see what's going to happen with the fund balance.

You know, when must we make a decision about property tax or cut expenditures in a dramatic way because our fund balance is going to be kind of whittled down to a place that we don't want it to be.

The next part is to allocate the financial resources.

That's where you are right now.

That's the part of the budget cycle that you're in.

So from kind of March, April, and then into early May, that's on the administrative side, they are putting that budget together.

The mayor probably mayors have different processes, but probably asks all the department heads to submit their requests.

The mayor then goes through those requests, and then what's going to frustrate you if it hasn't already is once those department heads give it to the mayor, and the mayor puts it in the mayor's budget and it becomes the mayor's recommended budget.

You're gonna want to call those department heads in and say, What would you do different?

And they're gonna say, We want what the mayor wants because it's the mayor's budget.

And and I have to tell you, in this form of government, that's always the tension.

But they're absolutely right.

Once the department heads give that to the mayor, and the mayor puts it in the budget, that is what the department heads want.

That's what they want in their budget.

That is the way the form of government works, and it's it's really I mean, I I want to I don't want to have to choose words super carefully, but it's almost unfair to put a department head in that position as a council to say to them, Well, you know, ignore your mayor over there, and what would you do differently?

Um, because the process works that they've told the mayor what they want, then the mayor's made a decision.

So that's kind of the bummer of being on the council side, right?

Is we don't get to hear from the department heads directly what they might do different in the budget.

That the budget they have to defend now is the executive's recommended budget, and that's true in every mayor council form of government.

It's true.

I mean, I've been at the state legislature enough to know legislative committees call department directors in and ask them the question, and they say what was in the governor's budget is what we are most comfortable with and what we support, and it frustrates legislators, I know, but that's that's the process, right?

So then you adopt your budget by June 30th, you go through all of your deliberations.

I don't know the tools you use.

Do you use a list where you add and subtract, and that's kind of how you go through it, Dustin?

You know, our finance team puts together this really great budget tool that we're able to go in and make changes to where we actually proposed, which is a great tool that we use every day.

That's better than I ever had access to on the legislative side.

We always did a list.

We we called it a red green list where we were adding or subtracting, and then we knew the number we had to get through with the council at the bottom.

Um, so that's great if there's a tool that you can use like that.

And then, of course, you do all of your your meetings and you do them all in public and and you have all of those deliberations in public because it unlike the mayor, you have to do that.

You have to have your deliberations in a public setting.

You don't get to go behind closed doors and and make those budget deliberations.

And then you get to the fun part, which is you get to monitor the budget for policy and fiscal control throughout the rest of the year.

And there are a lot of different ways you can do that, and we'll talk about some of those as we go along.

I think the council ought to be looking at quarterly financial reports.

You probably are because you have Brian Kelly.

Where's Brian?

Yep.

You're probably looking at quarterly financial reports.

And then on the on the administrative side, and think of being a council member in one of these forms of government where you have to wear both hats, like you're the administrator of the streets program, but then you're a council member who gets to set the broad policy.

And what if your council doesn't set the policy you want over the program you administer?

There's a whole nother conversation, right?

But but that's not your role here.

Your role in your form of government is not to look at monthly necessarily, but to look at those quarterly reports and understand at a higher level what's going on as you move through the budget.

I would hope so.

What I don't like are the scenarios where council members kind of agree in concept to a budget amendment, but we don't actually amend the budget, and then we do one fell swoop amendment at the end of the year, and inevitably I get calls from council members saying I really don't want to vote for what I said I'd vote for three months ago.

I don't want to vote for it now.

And the truth is they don't have to.

So if you're amending your budget as it needs to be amended, I think that's a much better process, and I think it keeps the council more in that role of monitoring the budget and making those amendments throughout the year.

Is that your scenario?

You're monitoring, you oh, you're doing an end of the year cleanup rather than periodically throughout the year.

Okay.

We we can do them throughout the year.

Right.

Yeah, we do a carryover at the end of the year as well.

Right.

You you have to do that cleanup at the end of the year.

But if you know you need something, I'd go ahead and amend your budget.

We do that.

Okay.

We do that perfect.

Perfect.

So, Carrie, I have a question for you.

And I'm not sure if this is the right part.

Depending on you to tell me we'll get to that later.

Um, so this goes back to what Frank was talking about about the tension that between the two branches of government.

You talked about that we should potentially be creating five-year plant spending plans by fund.

Um, but the budget that comes out is the mayor's budget, it's not the city council's budget.

We can change the mayor's budget to match the city council's budget, but um we can set, we can indicate what we're looking for, we can do it at a high level, we can do it at a granular level.

We can pass a resolution saying we expect that we want this thing to be funded in this way in the coming budget, but the mayor doesn't have to do that.

Correct.

So I I do wonder how much effort the council should put into defining a very specific budget when we don't know the mayor isn't necessarily listening to what the council is saying ahead of a budget that comes out.

So a couple things, let's unpack it now, not later, because I don't want to forget.

But a couple of things that I'm hearing in your question is number one, when I say a five-year plan, that's not a five-year budget.

It's a plan that you know you're gonna have and and budgeting, remember, is art, and things are gonna change and circumstances are gonna change, which is why it's a plan, and you're just kind of estimating what you think might happen in different areas over the five-year period of time.

That's what I'm talking about there.

But yes, you're right.

The way budgets are set up is the mayor does present the mayor's budget, but the budget that's passed, the council's budget, that is the capital and operating budget for the city.

It that the mayor's budget no longer exists at that point.

What you adopt is the operating and capital budget for the city.

And if there are things that you want more emphasis on, you need to add the emphasis.

And if there are things you want less emphasis on, you need to take the emphasis away.

But you have the same the same responsibility that the mayor had in the tentative budget, which is every single fund must be balanced.

Um, and and as you move forward, you know, that is your prerogative, and your budget that you adopt as the operating and capital budget for the for the city, it may look 90% similar to the mayor's, it may look 50% similar to the mayor's.

It may look 90% similar to the mayor's, it may look 50% similar to the mayor's.

That's your your choice.

At the end of the day, that is your choice as to what that looks like.

And then the mayor will execute on it.

She has a very clear role, any mayor does in producing that tentative budget.

But once it comes over to you, it's your responsibility to get an operating and capital budget adopted by June 30th if you're not going through truth and taxation.

You have till September 1st if you're gonna raise property taxes.

Does that make sense?

Yes, perfect.

Okay, so this is where it got really fun for me because I looked at Sandy's guiding principles, and you I thought it was really great.

You're really clear.

Um you got protect, connect, and create.

And I don't need to read the detail to you.

You created those, right?

That's those should be part of your guiding principles as the governing body that you set.

And if not, I would say when you go through that process at the beginning of the year, that's when you you change that direction.

If we're gonna change and we're not gonna protect, connect, and create, but we're gonna build, plow, and do something else.

I don't know what they might be.

That's when you set that direction that kind of signals to the mayor and her department heads uh where you want to be moving and what you want to see for the city.

And then your next document that you have that I thought was really great, and I assumed you were involved in in the putting this together as well, is your vision, your mission, and then your 2026 goals.

So that's what's that's what's out there publicly.

This is what I could find when I look publicly for Sandy City.

So, you know, and then I would, if I'm your legislative staff, I'm making sure that the things that I see in the mayor's recommended budget line up with these statements that are out there as our guiding principles and then as our vision, mission, and citywide goals.

And if you really want to nerd out with me, then when we start to do, when we start to have performance measures, the performance measures ultimately tell me how we're getting here, and so ultimately it tells me how we let's see, let me remember protect, connect, and create, and the measures are a way that I can look at, yep, that's one way that we're protecting or we're we're connecting or we're creating.

Um, and so and then they would line up to these goals, and that's when it's all working the best, when the measures are lined up through the organization, because then what that does for your employees is give them the really clear North Star of where we're driving as an organization, where we're headed, what we're trying to accomplish, what we're trying to achieve.

So again, I just bring you back to this slide to remind you that you set the values for the community, those are your values that I can see in the capital and operating budget that you adopt as a county council as part of the budgeting process.

So last night or late yesterday afternoon, I got a request that you wanted some examples of budget policy statements because I had on that slide previously budget policy statement.

So the first thing I'm showing you is your goals because I think those are pretty good budget policy statements.

At the end of the day, a budget policy statement is some kind of document outlining your priorities, outlining your goals or a fiscal strategy for the coming year.

And it helps with budget preparation if we know what those are as we start to line the dollars up and align them.

So I thought your goals were pretty good example of what a budget policy statement might be.

Here's a statement.

Sorry, it's a little small.

This is from another community, um, and it's their approach to budgeting, and you can see there's you know, they're talking about what they're going to do as they move forward in the year, so you can take a look at that one, and then I've got one more for you that I found that that this is another community that's laid out, they have essential services, community safety, capital improvements.

Um, you probably can tell by one of them what community it is, because it's talking about the West Westside and Ballpark neighborhood focus.

Um, and then they have some transit and employee support.

So it can take different forms, and again, I lean back into there's not a right or a wrong, um, but it's up to you as a body to coalesce and come together with that kind of direction.

It's not one council member's direction, it's not what one council member wants to see, it's what the council has coalesced around to say this is the general direction that we want to be heading in as a as a community and a council.

Oh, there's one more.

I threw in one more, and I only put part of theirs because it goes on for a long time.

I mean, they have a lot of things outlined.

Um, theirs is that they're moving toward performance-based budgeting.

And I'll tell you who this is so you can go find it if you want to, because it's actually quite well done.

It's South Jordan.

So if you jump on South Jordan's website, it looks pretty good.

So now I wanted to spend some time uh leaning into what Frank talked about as policy making versus policy execution, because that's always kind of the tension.

And and like I said, and like Dustin told you, I've spent time on both sides.

I've spent time on the administrative side, a lot of years in a budget office on the administrative side, sometime in like a department that's actually delivering services on the administrative side, and I spend a lot of my career, started my career on the on the legislative side, um, and I've gone back and forth a few times between administration and led and legislative branch.

And I have to tell you that when I'm in the legislative branch, sometimes the jobs on the administrative side look more fun because they are the ones that are executing and they're out there doing, and we're the ones that are back policy making, but both are really fun.

Um but you have to remember which lane you're in, and sometimes we get really frustrated because we're in this lane, and we really wish we were in this lane over here doing this other thing.

Um both are fun, both are a lot of fun, and you just have to remember that there is a difference between making the policy and then executing the policy, and some days execution looks kind of more fun.

You get to be out, you know, do it.

You you get to be out on the street, so to speak, uh, more often.

So, and and then sometimes it overlaps a little bit, right?

And there's a little bit of overlap.

So, policy making, as Frank said, is general.

Um, the specific details of how things get done is policy execution, but it isn't science, it's art.

So remember that as you go along.

And then Frank alluded to this to the tension where you have to then come together and work together.

And I think the most effective uh examples I've seen, and I've I've been on both sides when it's tense and it's it can be really tense sometimes, but when you can finally find a partnership and be then everybody pushing in the same direction, that's when then when I think real magic happens.

When you can you have those tough conversations, you get through the tough thing, um, and then once a decision's made, then we all start pulling in the same direction and and get the decision done.

So you here's your I wanted to start with your citywide goals, and I wanted to talk through a couple of examples, and this is going to be a little bit interactive, okay?

So you have a citywide goal to maintain a highly qualified workforce.

I think that's a great goal.

We see that in a lot of our communities, right?

We want to maintain staff turnover is expensive.

Um, we want to maintain our staff, we want to have a highly qualified workforce.

So, isn't is if the council said we want an annual compensation package that is to be market-driven, is that policy making or execution?

Making, right?

That's policy making, right?

You're setting the parameter.

We want a market-driven compensation package.

Next, the entity's compensation will be in the top 25% regionally.

Policy making or execution?

Making, most likely, right?

Making.

How about we want to establish a goal that zero dollars are spent on car allowances for executive employees?

That was real.

That came from a real experience I've had.

So is that policy making or execution?

It's execution.

And let me tell you what happened in that scenario.

Because there was a statement that we want to maintain a highly qualified workforce and we want a compensation package that to be market-driven.

Um, when the legislative body said we're eliminating all of the money in the budget for executive car allowances because we just disagree with executive car allowances.

The mayor said, I'm gonna take money from other places in the budget, and I'm gonna fund car allowances because in the market I see them out there, and it's part of me maintaining a high highly qualified workforce, and I want car allowances.

And the council amended the budget and went in and took the money out again.

And the mayor came back and said, This is this is execution, this is not policy making.

I'm putting the money, I will find other money in the budget.

Now we're cutting other things you might want, but I'm putting it back in the budget to provide these car allowances because it aligns with the direction, it aligns with the policy indicators, and this is policy execution.

And at that point, the attorneys helped the council get to the place to say it really is policy execution, and we can do this all day long.

We can cut the budget and we can get the budget completely gone because we keep cutting that amount of money that we don't want to have spent that way, but at the end of the day, that is policy execution.

It's the way that the executive within because remember, your appropriation power is at the appropriation level.

You don't appropriate at all those line items really, you appropriate at an appropriation level.

And so that I I've always liked that example.

What about directing that all employees receive a 2.5% cola?

Is that policy making or policy execution?

That one's kind of a little bit of an overlap, isn't it?

Um, because I've been in scenarios where they will budget a two and a half percent colour when you get the mayor's budget, the budget will say we've got budget in here for two and a half percent cola, but we're not gonna do that across the board.

We actually want to look at some positions that are further out of market, and because we have a market-driven uh compensation philosophy, uh, we might give some employees a little bit higher and some employees not quite as much.

It's not going to be right across the board as we go through with that.

So that's one, and I put it in there intentionally because it is a little bit might be a little of both.

Yes.

I have a question.

So going back to the established uh a goal of zero dollars towards um yeah, employee allowances, the council could enact an ordinance or write policy saying a car allowance will be no more than $300 a month, and that's what would have to be stuck to you.

Sure.

Sure.

But but I would probably, if I were your staff, I would say, oh, that's pretty in the weeds when what you really want we have a policy now that states the amount.

Right.

And I would say that is kind of in the weeds, maybe.

But because what you really want is a high quality workforce and you want a market-driven compensation policy.

And do you want to have to change your resolution or ordinance when the market moves what that car allowance is?

Or do you want the administration to be able to have a market-driven compensation policy?

But if at the end of the day, the council as a body said we want that to be the max, guess what?

I'm not substituting mine for yours, right?

So that's how I would view that if I were staff.

Okay.

So I just take you back again to your guiding principles, and we're gonna go through a couple more of these examples, but I wanted you to remember your guiding principles as we go through them.

So here's your citywide goals again.

Let's take a look at this one.

Develop and improve the city's recreational trails and increase recreational opportunities, i.e., provide park park, I think it should have been park and green spaces for recreational activities and to enhance the environment, right?

You recognize that?

Okay, how about this one?

Adopt a CIP five-year plan for trail development.

Policy making or execution.

Making, right?

That's policy making.

That's well within your purview to have the administration propose to you and then you adopt, because they have the technical experience, right?

To at least get a five-year plan mapped out, you may change it a little bit, but then you adopt it.

That is the policy then that we're driving toward, right?

How about establish a goal that 20% of the five-year plan is implemented each fiscal year?

I think that one's making.

You have the authority to create a new project, but once projects are in there, the administration can move the budget between the projects to try to execute on the fund.

And that is, I mean, you will hear from cities that have made maybe agreements with one another that if there's more than a 20% shift in a capital project, the administration will bring that back to the council for just to let them know.

But that's only as good as you know as good as the administrator wants to bring it back.

Because statutorily, the administrator cannot sign an agreement with the council that gets rid of authority that they have in state statute, and state statute lets them do that.

And it's because it's execution, right?

It's because it's not perfect, bids are going to come in high, low, and you have to be able to move those project budgets around a little bit to make the projects happen.

So that one's pretty clear execution.

And then what about eliminating trail C from the five-year plan?

To be making, you'd have to open up the five-year plan, right?

Um, you wouldn't want the administration to just say it's out, that one's out.

So once you've decided what the projects are, I mean, and you've appropriated dollars toward the projects in the capital project plan or the capital projects fund, it's your expectation that those projects move along.

Now, one of your monitoring tools is that you're gonna look at that from time to time and you're gonna say, Why aren't we moving on this project over here?

Like it was important to us.

Why aren't we moving on it?

Uh we want to see that project funded, and that's a very fair question for the council to be asking because you could have a situation.

I'm not suggesting you have.

I've seen it before, though, where something gets funded, and then we just it just kind of gets back burnered and we never really work on it, even though the funding's there for the project.

Um, and if the council cares about it, then the council will tee that up publicly every so often and say, where are we on that?

Like, why aren't we moving on it?

I'll give you one really good example.

It's back when Frank and I, this was really fun as a couple when I was on the legislative side and he was this in the city attorney's office.

Um at that point, the council wanted that this is gonna shock the other attorneys, but the council wanted the city attorney to put computers on every attorney's desk.

They didn't have them.

Frank was still writing things out on yellow pads, and um the the city council said that's crazy.

We want a computer on every attorney's desk.

And the city attorney at the time didn't spend the money, and he said, My attorneys are paid too much to have a computer on their desk.

And the council said, This is early days, right?

Council said your attorneys are paid too much to not have a computer on their desk.

So the council put the money in the budget again the next year and said to him, if you do not spend that money, like there will be hell to pay, spend that money, get your attorney's computers, and so he did that year.

That's when the the attorney's office finally got computers on all of the attorney's desks.

But it was the council monitoring that and saying, Why aren't you spending that money we're giving you and we're putting in your budget?

Because we really want you kind of to modernize that attorney's office.

This was many, many years ago, I promise.

Um, okay, let's do our policy making or execution one more time.

Strengthen communications with citizens, businesses, and other institutions.

How about establish a goal to have the municipal communication strategy reach 70% of the population?

Policymaking, execution.

It's probably making, right?

Like you're not telling them how to do it, you're just saying we want some, we've got a measure, um, probably a pretty aggressive measure, but we've got to measure that we want 70% of our population to be touched by some form of city communication.

And then what about establishing a goal that 80% of communications will not involve printed material but will be electronic?

I think that one's execution.

Because how can they hit the 70% if you're cutting off, you know, you're you're basically tying an arm behind their back and saying, go out and do this, but only in this one medium.

You can't use other mediums to do it.

Um, you've got to you've got to really rely on the one medium.

And then the other is establish a goal that the parks department will not hold community events that are not open to all residents.

Making, right?

That's policy making.

So you what you can't do is you can't have niche groups that the parks department's doing all of these events for.

The events that we're having our parks department lead in our parks need to kind of be open for for all of our residents in our community because we're trying to strengthen our communication with our residents.

And then lastly, establish a goal that zero community events focused on fostering relations with dog owners are held.

I'm glad that you all laughed at that.

That's super meddlesome, right?

And it isn't getting you towards your goal.

And I picked dog owners because I know we all love dogs, and we would never have such a thing.

The point is that's pretty you're it's not help letting the administration have the flexibility to really get to the policy goal that you wanted, which is strengthening communications with citizens' businesses and other institutions.

And if I remember on your connect, we even leap back into a strategic priority on trying to connect to uh within the community.

So again, um I think it was Justin that said, Did you really want these slides repeated?

Yes, because I just wanted to put it in front of you again and remind you you establish the values, and these are the ways you do it.

So the mayor's budget, when the mayor's budget comes to you, should have a budget message, and then I think when you adopt the budget for you should also have a budget message for the operating and capital budget of the community.

And what you're really trying to do there is be transparent and demystify the numbers for the public so that the public can understand what were your intentions, you know, what major assumptions did you use?

Um, maybe you describe some of the areas where you differed from what you received.

Uh, you know, we did it a little bit different than what the mayor proposed, but this is what our budget is now moving forward.

Um, you'll probably the financial economic and inflation factors will be really similar to whatever were identified by the mayor in proposing the budget.

You might have unique opportunities that you want to talk about in any given year.

Maybe you're buying a piece of land that came available, um, wouldn't be available in another year.

Maybe you pulled back on 20% funding into trails because you're gonna put the money over into buying a piece of open space, uh, not necessarily trail related, but it's a unique opportunity.

Those kinds of things can be like when you're gonna deviate from a policy direction, you probably talk about that in a budget message so that the public is focused on that.

Okay.

So that's like kind of a lot about budget, but now let's get into understanding just some of the basics before we go very much further.

So this is just kind of our definitions, deadlines, and requirements.

I always like to tee up to everybody.

The the state auditor's office has some amazing tools that you can go out and use.

Um, one of them that I go to all the time is the uniform accounting manual.

Whenever I update my training, I go to that manual and make sure that I'm aligned with everything they've got.

It's pretty cool because when you look at it online, if you a lot of people will ask me, like, where's the statutory language?

Give me the statutory language for that, and you can link right in that manual.

They link the city statute, they're not your city statute, but the state statute that applies to cities, so that you can then really understand where the statutory language is coming from.

So I think it's a great resource, and there that's what it'll look like on the front.

They update it every year.

So the one I have a copy of there is from May of 2025.

So we've talked about this a little bit before, but just remember that your bow your budget for each fund must be balanced.

You cannot deficit spend in the state of Utah.

We're not allowed to by constitution.

All funds added together are your total operating and capital budget at the end of the year.

And then at on June 30th, when our books close on June 30th, we do this snapshot in time, and every fund, anything that hasn't been spent during that year lapses to that fund's fund balance, and the exception is the Capital Projects Fund, and we'll talk about that a little bit more in just a minute.

Um, the maximums for the general fund balance.

If you're a town, it's 100%.

If you're a city, it's 35%.

If you watched the legislative session last year, um there is legislative scrutiny on the city's 35%.

Um, some legislators wanted to take that back down to 25%, which is where it was about 10 years ago.

And the thought process is that they don't want you taking in more of the public's money than you're going to spend.

Um, they want you to have a little bit of a rainy day fund, but not very much rainy day fund.

Now, my my own little editorial comment is districts also get 100%.

And I see a lot of districts with budgets that dwarf some of our city budgets, and they get 100%, and our cities get 35.

So it the whole thing, I hope if they think about it again, they think about it driven on the budget number, not driven on, you know.

I've got tiny, tiny little cities that their budgets are smaller than towns, and they're limited at 35%.

But because they have 1,200 people, they're a city instead of under a thousand in a town.

So again, each fund must be balanced.

Just remember that every single fund must be balanced.

These are the different types of funds.

Brian's probably walked through walked you through this before, but we have governmental funds, and if you read your financial statement, you'll see a section that's about governmental funds.

Those funds account for your tax supported kind of day-to-day services.

Accountability is what we go for in those funds, and so that's why we monitor.

That's why we do different things to be accountable in those funds.

And then we have proprietary funds.

Those include anything that we run, sort of more like a business where profitability might be more of the goal for us in that fund.

And I've listed there the prof the proprietary funds that you have here in Sandy City.

So most budgets, most municipal budgets include multiple funds.

And I wanted to share these two examples between Salt Lake City at a 2.2 billion dollar budget and helper city at a 6.4 million dollar budget.

But look at both of them.

Salt Lake, their general fund is only 24% of their total operating and capital budget.

Helper city, it's only 33%.

So it doesn't matter that one budget's enormous.

Yet, if you listen to budget discussions in both cities, the discussion is almost exclusively around the general fund.

And it's because it's the fund where we pay taxes and it's the fund where we provide the basic services, right?

This is your fund structure in Sandy.

I'm sure you've seen this.

I actually, Brian Kudos, I thought this was great that it was laid out so clearly for the public to be able to understand your governmental funds, your proprietary funds.

And you can see that other line of proprietary funds that you have there that are called internal service funds.

And when we go through a fund by fund description in just a minute, you'll see those again.

This is just a look at your revenue, 2025 actual revenue by fund.

So you can see if you look at it, your general fund is the largest and it's the governmental fund, but when you add the others together, it's not necessarily the largest, and the next chart will show you that.

Oh, I was gonna ask you if you knew what your operating uh revenue was.

It's 185 million.

You probably knew that already, though.

And then this is how your funds break out.

So your general fund is a little bit larger in terms of your total than helpers was, and it's about 15% larger than what Salt Lakes is in theirs.

Salt Lakes, they get dwarfed by that airport because the airport runs as a separate enterprise fund for them.

Yes, are these new slides you added?

Because they're not matching the slides that we got.

I added slides.

Um I added slides last night based on the question about uh policy execution and making.

And so this is probably five slides down now.

Okay, because I added those slides.

So in you have a link to the newest, but yeah.

Thank you.

Yep.

But this one was in already.

This slide was in, it was those others.

So council, I noted in the staff report that there were some slides that were missing some Sandy specific information.

And that's what Carrie would have added.

So we can send you the updated ones after the presentation today, though.

Yeah, yeah.

Sorry, I could I was at the league all of last week and didn't get your all of your information embedded until Sunday night.

Um, okay, so it requires a council budget amendment to move money from fund to fund.

Why?

Why do you think that has to come to the council?

If I'm gonna move money from the water fund to the general fund, why is the mayor do I need to bring that to you?

It's a policy change, right?

It's a policy change.

If I'm moving money from one fund to another fund, there's probably a policy decision going on somewhere.

You're the policy setting body, you're the appropriating body, and the the definition of a fund is a self-balancing set of numbers.

So the council is required to make any move from any fund to another fund, even your internal service funds.

If it's going from one internal service fund to the other internal service fund, the council has to weigh in on that.

The council has to take action on that.

And that's true everywhere.

That's true no matter which city you're in.

It requires council action to move money from fund to fund.

So let's just really quickly talk through the different fund types.

And we talked about the general fund is a governmental fund type.

Your main sources of revenue, sales tax, property tax, you have a utility tax, energy utility, energy sales and use tax.

You bring in your Class C road funds through your general fund.

You may then transfer them out to a capital projects fund, but you bring them in through the general fund.

You have fees, you have fines, you have different charges for services that make up your general fund.

Your general fund expenditures are kind of the general governmental things police, fire, parks, planning, those types of things.

Okay, that's the general fund.

There is a belief, and it's growing stronger at the legislature, and this is out of that uniform accounting manual, these definitions, but this belief that you should not accumulate funds within your general fund without a specific purpose is growing stronger.

Just be aware of that.

Okay.

These are some examples of general fund revenue for different communities.

And I like this chart because there are 22 different revenues reflected across these communities.

And some of our communities, I would say helper in particular, they they find every every different fund funding source they can, and they bring it in.

It's interesting to look at you know what they're doing in helper with all of the different revenue sources that they have.

This is your actual general fund revenue by source.

Um Brian provided some great data so that I could show this to you, and you can look at you can just take your time and go through and look at that at your leisure.

I know you didn't see it in the deck that I gave you originally, but this is what got added.

So you can look at each of your different sources, and then later, not right now, later I have a trend chart for you so that you can see the trends, and we'll talk through that in just a minute.

So I just told you that the council has to take a has to do a budget amendment to move money from fund to fund within the general fund, the council also has to be the entity that moves money from appropriation level to appropriation level.

And what I mean by that is from police to public works or and it's it's whatever's defined in your budget as the appropriation levels, okay?

You're in it's your departments, is largely what that is.

In fact, in the truth in taxation legislation that just got done last year, that that impact schedule that you have to put together, the reason we have you put it together at the department level or the appropriation level is because that is the legislative authority level.

So what the legislative body cannot do is go in and or or I shouldn't say cannot, you could, but the administration can move money within the police department from personnel to capital outlay or to charges for services, however, they have those categories laid out underneath the police department.

That doesn't require any council action.

That's that's the administration executing and realizing that the budget is a target that we're trying to work toward, and that we might need to move money from those different line items within a department as we land the 747 of the budget, right?

But if we're gonna move money from one department to another department, just like if you're moving fund to fund, it probably is a policy change.

You're probably pulling back a little bit on one so that you can put more into another.

That's why the council needs to be involved in that because you're the policy setting body, and so you need to talk about those changes that happen from appropriation level to appropriation level within the general fund.

You have a debt service fund.

This is where you'll have bond proceeds and then payments if you have long-term debt, or if you have a loan, you'll you could run that through your debt service fund as well.

Special revenue funds.

Um you use special revenue funds a lot, um, and it was interesting to me to dig into it.

And again, there's not a right or a wrong.

I just found it interesting.

So you have special revenue funds, and that means it's a fund that's restricted or committed to a specific purpose other than capital or debt service.

And yours are you've got recreation, you've got a CDBG fund, you've got community art, street lighting, special purpose, stormwater, and RDA.

And I don't know why your stormwater is special revenue fund rather than an enterprise fund.

Some communities have it as an enterprise, it could be the way that you're doing your user fee in it.

I don't know, you might not have it be a traditional user fee.

That may be why you're not an enterprise fund.

But but Brian and I had some really good conversation around the special revenue funds because those are policy decisions to have those revenues come in like that as and have it be in a special revenue fund rather than just part of the general fund.

And you know, if you felt strongly that something shouldn't be restricted, if you don't have a bond document or something else restricting it, you could make a different policy decision of how that revenue flows.

And then your capital projects fund, I have to tell you the schedule that is in your budget.

I love it's one of the best capital project schedules I've ever seen.

I was really fond of it, and you can see some of the different capital projects there that I put in the graphic on the side.

I love the Capital Projects Fund.

If you've sat through my training, I tell you how much I love it.

Um now some people, some communities are starting to game it a little bit, and it's I'm training not to do that because it's gonna hurt us all if they do.

You do not do that, by the way.

You're not one of the communities doing it.

But what happens is we have communities that are bumping up against their fund balance level, and so what they'll do is they'll move money, they'll transfer money into the capital projects fund because then when the books close on June 30th, it's not in the general fund and it doesn't get counted in that 35% number.

And then what they do, and legislators have seen this happen, is in July or August, there's another budget amendment, and they move the money out of the capital projects fund and back into the general fund.

And so the legislators are saying all you're doing is trying to get below below that level.

And I have trained for years that you all have capital projects that you're trying to accomplish.

So I don't think anyone should be over the 35% savings level in the general fund.

Um, but it seems like some people were a little too liberal with how they took that advice from me.

Because if you've gone through and you have bona fide capital projects, then yes, you can put money in those projects, but you probably shouldn't just move it out at the end, you know, once the once the books open on a new year.

You know, Carrie, because we got so into fund balances in the last legislative session.

So Cam said at one LPC meeting that you can't do that.

You cannot move money to a capital projects fund and then move it back to the general fund.

He said you can't do that.

And I I went, wait, you why can't you do that?

So I went to our finance department and asked them, and they said you shouldn't do that.

Correct.

So you it's not illegal, but you shouldn't do that.

And they felt that in an audit, you would be you would be called out for it.

That's that's exactly that's the that's the problem that's happening right now.

You aren't doing that.

But yes, you can move the money, and then you can amend the budget and move the money back.

You shouldn't do that if you don't have the need for the money at a capital project.

You shouldn't do it just to get below your fund balance level, and that's what's been happening, and that's what's put kind of the spotlight on it.

So hopefully through this year, we'll get more communities to adopt a capital projects plan and then have their capital projects plan laid out in their capital project fund, and then they can put money into the different projects that they really want to accomplish.

And the reason I love the capital projects fund is because it doesn't revert to fund balance at year end, it stays with the project.

You can save for multiple years to accomplish a project.

If you want to build a community swimming pool, you could put money in, you could say we're gonna save for five years so that we have the money we need to build the swimming pool, and then we're gonna build the swimming pool.

And if that's outlined, I think that's the key, Chair, to get us out of this is that if people have the capital improvement plan, and then they have projects in the fund that align with the plan, and they have some timelines on that of this is how long we need, um, then I think that that we get out of that scrutiny that we're under right now as local government.

So this is I just wanted to show you a copy of yours.

You've probably seen it, but I thought it was really great.

Like I loved the detail of these different projects.

Um I I love this, and I love that you're you've got it planned out exactly as we said, you know where you're going, and and so it isn't a shell game, right?

You're putting the money in because you've got four or five years that you're trying to save the money up and do different these different projects.

So I I might use this in training from now on because I thought it was so good.

I really like it.

Okay.

Oh, there was one more that I highlighted, but we don't.

Okay, so just in closing, what makes the project capital project fund so special?

The council establishes the projects within the fund, and hopefully that's guided by a capital improvement plan.

We've talked about the unexpected the unexpended funds don't lapse, they stay with the project until the project is completed, and then just a reminder there is no budget requirement to move money from project to project.

The administration can move money from project to project.

And then only projects associated with governmental funds should be in the capital projects fund.

If you have water fund projects, they'll be in the water fund.

Um so if you've got other enterprise fund projects, that's where they'll be.

Okay.

Now, just to take a little break, um, let's play a game.

Is it a capital project?

We'll fly through this because you guys know these.

Uh town hall, capital project.

Yep, we'd see it in the capital projects fund.

Uh water line replacement, capital project, yes, but we wouldn't see it in the capital projects fund, we'd see it in the water capital.

Uh fire hydrant repair.

Nope, maintenance.

You're right.

Um street overlay, capital project, right?

Okay, pothole repair.

Nope, not a capital project.

But you could have a line in your capital projects fund that's maintenance that includes and and that's where you do kind of you know all kinds of road maintenance out of that capital project.

Bridge repair.

Yep, capital project.

HVAC system in a town hall.

Exactly.

You have you sat through the training?

Yes, okay.

Eight years ago when I'm running street lights in a neighborhood.

Capital project.

Replacing a street light bulb, not a capital project.

That's right.

Okay, new community swimming pool, capital project.

Playground equipment.

Brooke sat through the training.

Maybe, right?

It depends.

If if it's a maintenance and we're just replacing on a normal replacement schedule, might not be a capital project, might just be maintenance.

But if it's part of an upgrade to a city park and it's a larger project we're doing, then it might be a capital project.

So that one was one that was kind of iffy because an upgrade to a park is.

Snow plow.

This is especially important for our smaller communities.

They can they can run that as a capital project because it's big.

Wildland fire, they can specifically do that one as a capital project.

Fire station, no doubt it's a capital project.

So again, strong encouragement toward the capital project plan improvement plan.

That's what you do as the council.

Then you lay out the projects just like you've done in that very fantastic uh capital project plan that Brian has tracking for you.

Proprietary funds, they account for your business type activities.

Uh, usually it's fees, they're fee-based.

The definition of a fee is that it um equates the cost of delivering the service.

Okay, and we're gonna talk a little bit.

The fee doesn't have to recover the cost of service, but it can't be more than recovering the cost of service.

So if you make a policy decision on any of your fees, you could make a policy decision to not fully recover the cost of service.

What you cannot do is use the fee to just generate revenue above and beyond the cost of service.

Okay, these are your internal service funds.

The fees that they charge are to your city departments, so that's where they get their funding, is they have a fee structure just like any proprietary fund, but they charge your different city departments for the services that they provide.

So you have an equipment management fund, a fleet fund, your information technology, you run as a an internal service fund, your pay and benefits management, you run as an internal service fund and your risk management, you run as an internal service fund, and that's common in larger governments.

I see that a lot.

Okay, and then you have another type of proprietary fund, which are your enterprise funds, and these are your golf fund, your waste collection fund, your water fund, and then you have an Alta Sports Center fund, which is a different fund.

So within those funds, again, if you want to transfer money from one of those funds into the general fund, you can do that.

But with these funds in particular, you need to notify the ratepayers of the fund that you're doing that, and this is outside of you can charge an administrative service fee to these funds from the general fund without having to go through that notice.

You just charge you Brian's probably got a calculation that you charge out to your enterprise funds for the services that the general fund provides to them, and then that revenue comes in.

But a lot of our communities don't want to raise property taxes, quite frankly, and so they want to take some excess revenue out of the water fund and put it in the general fund.

You would have to let rate payers in your water fund know that.

So that's I don't know your situation if you provide service outside of your city limits or not the way they do.

But those are your enterprise funds.

And then the policy questions, and we were just starting to get into that.

Should we transfer revenue over into the general fund instead of raising taxes?

Believe it or not, we were in a training four or five months ago, and a council member said, Can we transfer general fund revenue into our water fund?

And I said, Why would you want to?

Like general fund revenue is so precious.

Why would you want to?

And they didn't want to raise water rates.

I'm like, oh man, I I yes, I guess you could, but that is not something I would advise or that I would do.

Uh transfer your general fund money over into an enterprise fund where you have revenue generating capability, but you are the policy-setting body.

And then the same thing comes.

We've had questions about should I transfer, could I transfer money from one enterprise fund to another enterprise fund so that I don't have to raise the fees in the other revenue in the other enterprise fund.

And those are all very interesting policy questions that you all put your name on the ballot and you all get to decide when those questions come up before you.

So again, just remember every fund at the end of the day must be balanced.

Okay.

Some final fund notes.

When you decide that you no longer need a separate fund, the remaining fund balance can be transferred to the general fund.

And I've got the code citation down in the bottom there for you.

And then local governments may authorize interfund loans and transfers subject to certain specifications.

Where we have a fund that might have a large fund balance and we have a quick need in another fund.

You know, could we one fund loan the other fund the money rather than going out in the market to get the money?

And there are certain specifications that you have to pay attention to, but yes, the answer is you can have one fund loan another fund money.

So this is your budgeting basics for all funds.

You know this, you're on a July 1 to June 30th year.

You have to have budget public hearings to adopt and amend your budgets and to transfer money between funds.

Okay.

You need a monthly budget report for your management side, you need quarterly budget reports for your legislative body, you need to file your budget with the state within 30 days after adoption.

So once it's adopted, your budget officer gets it filed, and then you have another financial filing package that's due to the state that goes on the transparency website, and that's due a hundred and eighty days after the close of your year.

So it's usually those reports start coming in kind of in January after the close of the prior fiscal year, it's after your audit, so it's your audit and some other statements that they do about the audit.

So I want to stop there for just a minute.

We've been going for a bit.

Are you okay?

I'm okay if you're okay.

Okay, plow forward.

Okay, great.

This is a snapshot of the municipal budget process for all funds.

This is assuming no property tax increase.

Okay, you're not going to raise property taxes.

Oh, sorry.

Look, I was gonna ask you for a break right there anyway.

Um, the budget officer prepares the tentative budget in March and April, and then the budget, the tentative budget is presented to you, the council, by the first meeting in May, and I think you're a Tuesday meeting night, right?

So it'll be next week you get your tentative budget.

Um, council then, you adopt the tentative budget and you set a budget hearing date for June.

Um, and that budget is the budget hearing date is really to allow the public to weigh in on some of your deliberations around the tentative budget.

I know some communities will have that public hearing really early after the tentative budget, but then the public doesn't give get to give you any feedback about anything they've heard you talk about.

So I kind of like having it more in the June time frame so that you've had some time to work through the budget and they can see some of the changes you're thinking about when you have that public hearing.

You need to adopt a certified tax rate by June 22nd.

Um, this is one of the crazy things that got changed in the law.

You used to have to have your budget adopted by that day, and then the legislature changed the legislation, and you don't have to have your budget adopted until June 30th, but you have to know the property tax number that's going to drive the budget.

You have to adopt that certified tax rate by before June 22nd.

You need to get it to the county auditor.

And now there will probably be a question of what if we don't get the information from the county auditor.

Um, that's the flaw of the process right now.

County auditors are supposed to get you that information by June 8th.

They don't always hit that.

Brian, have you ever had is he still here?

Have you ever had June 8th?

Usually a few days after.

Yeah, usually a few days after.

Um, and so we actually wrote part of the new truth in taxation legislation to allow for that, to allow beyond up until June 13th for one of the statements that need to be made, so that we have time for the county auditor to be a few days late and you to still have an opportunity to decide whether or not new growth was sufficient before you decide if you're gonna have a property tax increase.

So that's but those two dates are really important, and then uh within 30 days of adopting the budget, which needs to be done before June 30th, your budget officer will file it with the state.

Usually on this slide, I bring in now two gold pieces, and it will happen in just a minute.

I think the the budget officer preparing the tentative budget and filing with the state auditor, those are administrative pieces.

Everything else in between is all you making sure you get that budget adopted by June 30th, that's you.

You need to, you know, and and Frank talked a little bit about one of the powers of the mayor is that the mayor can veto, and if your budget process has been contentious and you think that a veto might happen, you probably need to think about that when you're scheduling your date so that you have time to react to a potential veto.

So you don't want to adopt your budget on the 29th and have the mayor veto, and you have no time to make your statutory obligation to adopt a budget by the 30th.

So I mean, I've been in legislative bodies where we have a calendar that works both ways, like if things are feeling really contentious, we're gonna adopt the budget here.

If things are feeling like we're gonna be able to not have a veto, we can adopt it a little bit later in June.

So that's just something to keep in mind.

But you are statutorily required to hit that June 30th deadline.

Okay.

This is where I would have stopped and said, Do you need a break?

But you don't, so we'll go on.

Madam Chair, can I ask Carrie a question?

It's me over here.

Oh, okay.

Yes, I'm like, there's a voice from on high.

So just I just want to verify nothing changed in terms of the date we have to adopt the final budget by in this past legislative session.

We still have to adopt prior to June 30th.

Yes.

Okay.

Yep.

Before June 30th.

Yep.

And um your true your June 22nd is is also there.

I had until three months ago, I had left that June 22nd.

I hadn't had it on the slides.

And then as we were going through this truth and taxation process, it's like, no, everyone, even if you're going through truth and taxation, you have to hit that June 22nd date with your property tax levy.

So everybody has to do that regardless.

Okay, so this is where see now the gold comes in on those two so that you can see the two administrative pieces versus yours, assuming no property tax increase.

Um, I want to just quickly, who was in St.

George?

Raise your hand if you were in St.

George.

For those of you who are not in St.

George, you will really enjoy this next slide.

This is the budget process in a snapshot if you are not going through truth and taxation.

This is what it looks like if you are going through truth and taxation.

And the blue, the the uh light blue, those are the legislative changes this year.

And so if you're going through truth and taxation, there's a lot of work to do.

Um, but if you're not, then it's okay.

And I just wanted to leave that in to show you.

We'll talk a little bit later about truth and taxation, but that's the ugliest slide in any slide deck ever, by the way, but it was necessary.

Okay, so as we start through this, um, looking at this, your mayor will present the budget uh to you next week, which is by the first Tuesday in May, which is when the mayor is statutorily required to.

Sometimes when the legislative body and the mayor have, you know, are working well together, sometimes legislature the mayor will, or the executive will give the council sneak peeks at part of the budget, usually not the general fund, because that's usually where a budget speech is and where they want that emphasis.

But I know in some communities they'll let them see enterprise funds or something before so that the council can get a little bit of a jump start on the budget, but it's certainly not required by law.

By law, it comes on the first Tuesday in May or the first meeting in May.

Okay.

This is your budget process, and what I took the slide of your budget process and then showed you down below.

This is the part where you're you're driving it.

You drive the process from May 6th all the way to August 19th if you're going through.

It's my understanding that Sandy routinely reserves a date for a property tax increase.

That's great.

You you let the county auditor know.

We only learned it.

It was it was really interesting.

We were doing the planning for the training, and we're also helping another community that's going through truth and taxation this year.

And when Frank called the county auditor, the county auditor said, Well, I've already got other municipalities lined up on this one date, so why don't you have your municipality go on this date?

And Frank said, Well, who else is going through?

And he said, Well, Sandy got a date.

Frank said, Did Sandy tell you that there?

And then I called Dustin.

He said, No, we just routinely request the date so that we're on the date calendar.

It's kind of funny.

Um we talked, I don't want to spend a lot of time here.

This is the administrative responsibility.

This is how uh the mayor puts the budget together, um, gets it to you.

Um in the mayor's budget as well as in yours.

I always talk about transparency.

Truth in taxation legislation this year was at its core all about transparency.

It was about bringing the public into the conversation of a tax increase at a much earlier stage.

And I think we do a pretty good job in Utah as cities and towns of being pretty transparent with our budgets, but I will continue to beat the transparency drum and say you are only benefited by the time that you put into educating the public about the great services that you provide and the way you fund those services.

They need to understand what those tensions are within the budget, um, kind the kind of decision making you need to do, even if you're not going through truth in taxation, even if you're not going through a property tax increase, you know, I would always err on the side of more and more public education about the budget so that the public really understands how you're spending their money.

And most of the time that means getting it out of numbers into some charts, into some narratives, so that the public can understand it.

It's really hard to take in and understand budget spreadsheets, right?

So this is an example of really great things you guys are doing right now.

You're demystifying the numbers.

Um, I think it's great.

These are in your budget book.

Um, I love them.

I I will probably again use many of these in future trainings as examples of things that you can do to demystify the budget.

And so Brian and his team, I think, are doing a really great job at trying to put information out there in a way that's digestible and understandable for the public.

This is one of my very ugly charts because I'm not a graphic artist, but I at least could take the numbers Brian gave me and give you a chart.

This is a look at your general fund revenue.

Um, you know, we say in the state of Utah, local governments are about 14% as a as a rule dependent on property tax revenue.

You're around 17.

But remember, in that uh that's accounting for like Lyman, who is 0.08 dependent on property tax in theirs, versus you know, we've got other communities that are maybe over the 20s, maybe 22, 23, 24.

That's where it settles into that 14 statewide.

So those were your revenues.

Council responsibility is of course to make the tentative budget available to the public at least 10 days before it's adopted.

Um you probably do that on your website.

You might put it in your libraries, you know, different places that the public goes that they can access it, and then you have to set a hearing date.

That's the date that you set on the date that you tentatively adopt the budget, and you need to have at least seven calendar days notice for that public hearing.

And then more of your uh is you have your deliberations, you probably have additional meetings in May and June, I would assume, right, as you go through budget or longer meetings in May and June as you go through budget.

A lot of communities find that they do that.

Um you might do you might have some straw polling, um, you might do work meetings, you might have legislative intent language.

And uh Dustin said that one of you was interested in that concept of talking about legislative intent.

I'm really fond of legislative intent from the legislative branch.

Um the the organizations I've worked in when we do legislative intent, we will do intents as we go through the budget, and then our the council staff will track those intents, and they'll probably ask the administration to come in like quarterly and give you an update on the intents.

And the thing that I like about legislative intent is it doesn't always just end in the year, it can span.

So, you know, some of the best reports I've seen, we might have intents still that are three or four years old that are still intents, and tell staff will bring it back and say, we might have a new council now.

Is this still your intent?

Is this still what you want to be directing?

Um and play with it and figure out different ways that you can track and monitor those things that you all decide as a body are important and that you want to strive toward.

I mean, one intent I remember some time ago was paying a living wage to every employee, and it was like it's the you know, we had within the organization we had employees that were making minimum wage, um, and they said if if somebody's working 40 hours a week, we want to make sure that they're not qualifying for benefits, that it's a living wage, that they can raise a family on it, and that was a council intent, and so then again, what gets measured gets done, and so the organization started tracking to see you know how can we close that gap and get some of those lowest wage jobs that we have in the organization, and that gets back to that two and a half percent going across.

It's like how can we bump some of those a little higher so that we can try to do that?

And that again, not you you may or may not agree with the policy direction, but that council decided that was something that was important to them and they wanted to work on, did a legislative intent, and then they were able to track that over time.

Yes, yes, if I could just jump in on that.

Um I'm there may be others who were interested in legislative intent, but I know I was one that said I'd like to learn more about that.

So I have a couple of questions.

Uh-huh.

Um first, the the legislative intent.

You also earlier spoke about that within our authority we can ask for regular reporting.

Yes.

Um, and you just sort of connected that to legislative intent in terms of um we can indicate this is our legislative intent.

Uh and then we can also say we would like quarterly updates on progress being made towards this intent.

Yes, that is not that does not that is not contrary to what you said earlier about we cannot direct staff.

Like, could you clarify what what how that is within our authority and is not directing staff?

Right, and Frank, you can uh add if you want to add anything.

I think what Frank means in directing staff is you can't call up, you know, uh a supervisor in public works and say, hey, there's a street down here that's in really bad shape, and I need you to send a street sweeper down to clean it.

That's directing staff.

A legislative intent, while it may be the HR director's purview to do that, you didn't direct the HR director, you gave a policy statement about what you want to have happen, and that happens to be the person that would move it through, but ultimately it's the mayor who's probably gonna come in and and respond to you on the legislative intents in some kind of a quarterly fashion or something.

They'll probably pull it together and respond on behalf of the administration.

They may not, they may have the administrator present to you, but it's not you directing that administrator to do it.

I don't know if there's anything else you want to add to that correct, other than the you know the statements are relatively general, they're not again specific.

And that's what I was trying to make a distinction is your the legislative intent is general.

Uh and then the mayor uh under that general statement of intent will execute and they deal with the details of execute that's and I and I love throughout you've you've done this in different ways, both verbally but also written words around outcomes, and that's I love priority-based budgeting actually a lot.

Um we've just not been able to quite get there, even though that's something I'm hoping someday we get to, but yeah, If if our intent is communicated, are we also allowed to define what outcome measures like what do we define as success?

This is our intent.

We feel we will have achieved that intent.

Success looks like this, yeah.

And so then could the reporting that we ask be relative to here's our intent, this is what success looks like.

Give us an update relative to your progress towards success.

Sure, and that's where remember when we talked earlier about being intentional and having a measurement.

Yeah, you can you can now one of the things that you'll want to do in that is you'll want to make sure that whatever you're measuring, they have the ability to give you the data, right?

Regarding if they have to collect new data, they may come back and say there's actually a cost to us doing this because it's not there's not some proxy data out there that we can use to show you this.

Now we're gonna have to set up how to track that data and monitor that data, and then the council will need to decide you know, is it important enough that we would fund the data collection to show that measurement?

Um that the policy-based budgeting or the uh performance budgeting, it's hard because of that, because what you have to do is sort of you don't want to get into collecting a bunch of data that you're not, so you kind of want to look at what data do we already have, and what could we use as a measurement to say this is getting us to this policy goal or this legislative intent that we have over here?

And then the monitoring of those updates is still within our authority, is is we've we've defined what success looks like.

We are looking for evidence of progress towards said success.

Um, and if we if we like don't see that, what what are what are the levers we have?

What are the tools we have?

Well, your tools are create ordinances and appropriation, right?

I don't think it would get to that.

I think usually in the scenarios I've seen when the council says it's a legislative intent that we're moving this way or that way, um, I usually see the administration say, Great, if that's your intent, then we will start to do that.

They may come back and say there's a cost to it.

We and we need to talk about how we're going to do it or what we're gonna do without uh so that we can do that.

Um, but you you don't have different tools than what you have generally if you don't see that it's being moved along.

But those are pretty powerful tools that you have.

Yes, and so then my other wondering is with your experience, um the timing of that.

So, like we just held our January budget workshop, it's the second year we've done that, and um you know work towards shared understanding of of kind of the priorities that we hope will be reflected in in the tentative budget that comes to us.

Um where in that timeline do you recommend calling it on on top, like is it in addition to our priorities?

Can we also layer upon that?

Our legislative intent for A B C and D is this, and so we would do what language that we hope to see appropriations recommended in the tentative budget and alignment with intent A, B, C, D.

Yeah.

Talk me through that process and where does it fit into the timeline?

That's not usually where I see legislative intent come up.

That's more in the strategic the strategic area, but you could do it there because there's not a right or a wrong, right?

Um, and usually a legislative intent will say it is the intent of the council that, and then you state what the intent is.

I usually see those come up during the budget deliberation process.

That's usually, but to your point, if you're saying, you know, we actually want to signal that intent really clearly in January or February, and we would expect to see it in the tentative budget, and then if you don't see it in the tentative budget, you adopt the final budget, and so you can make and and you've been pretty crystal clear up front of where you're going to head uh if you don't see it.

And I would think that usually you would see it because they would want a first crack at at least getting where they think that you're going with it.

But I have not seen legislative intent used as strongly there as I've seen it during the budget session.

And then if you watch the legislature, they do legislative intent right during their session as well.

And so I usually see it during that kind of the appropriation process when it's like, okay, we're we're not going to figure out a way to fund ABC right now.

But we want it, like it's important to us, and it's important to us.

What I would encourage you to do is say because it aligns with these things that we're trying to accomplish, that's the importance, and so we want to start seeing a movement toward that.

And that's how you could direct it.

Okay.

Does that make sense?

It does.

It does.

And and I I'm I'm gonna keep listening and keep pondering because we did we did definitely through our budget workshop identify priorities.

And so it sounds like your your recommendation would be have this sort of in our mind as we are going through the budget process, and and if there is an opportunity to be even more clear relative to, hey, yes, we we share these budget priorities, but as we're deliberating, these other things have kind of come to the surface, and and we see an opportunity to layer upon that legislative intent.

Sure.

It sounds like maybe for us that might be the and and if it's funding something, I mean that's why you have staff, and staff can go in and say, okay, body, what are the priorities?

And that's this red green list that I talk about.

What I've seen used effectively is the fiscal staff on the legislative side doesn't chase for any one council member, right?

They might help put together a proposal that gets pitched to the council.

Um, but until the legislative body says we want you to go find funding for this, or we want you to remove funding for this, fiscal staff doesn't work on that because again, you work as a body, and so they need to have some pretty clear direction, and that's when I talk about the straw polls.

I mean, that's you know, I've seen I've seen legislative bodies say, Do you want to add that to the list?

You know, uh, does everybody and we'll vote?

We'll straw poll.

Do we or do we agree we're gonna add it to the list?

Yes, we agree we'll add it to the list.

Doesn't mean we agree we're gonna vote on it.

It we mean that staff can work on it and bring us back proposals around it.

We've added it to the list.

Um, that's how I've seen that work.

And then at the end of the day, before June 30th, you got to get all of that ironed out so you can get to your number.

And so the process, because I like to think like what is the system, what is the process?

So the process could be a a member of the body sees something, a pattern emerging, and says, I'd like to have us colleagues think about really identifying some legislative intent around that, and then there's there's collaborative conversations, etc.

etc.

And then we as potentially as a body, not a formal vote, you're saying, but more of a thumbs up, thumbs down, how's everyone feeling about this?

Then we say we'd like to.

Yeah, that's that's if you're adding and subtracting these items off the list.

A legislative intent you would have the body vote on.

You would you would write it up, you would present it to the body, okay, and then the body would vote on it, and then it becomes the council's legislative intent list.

And only those items, I gotta tell you.

I mean, I had a boss that had me write legislative intent statements that did not get support of the body.

He might have another member or two that would support him, but they I mean, you don't know how many years Jim Bradley wanted to go after outlying these single-use plastic bottles in Salt Lake County, but he couldn't get the votes because people just said it just the gym, we're not gonna get there, we're not gonna get there.

So that helps, yeah.

Because I was trying to understand how to use straw poll versus so it really could be a proposal by a council member that brings forward legislative intent language that seems to be aligned with some conversation.

Okay, yep.

I just needed to understand process, and then you need to think about how you put that on your agenda, you know, so it's got full transparency, the public can see that this is the proposal that's before the council.

I know in in one of the bodies I worked on, there was always a section there each week during budget deliberation.

Does anyone have legislative intent?

And the body would not entertain legislative intent that they had not seen already.

Like they said, we're not gonna sit here at this dais and read this and try to comprehend it.

If it's not here in advance, we're not considering it on the day that you want it there.

So they were holding themselves and each other accountable on that.

And so uh something for us to think about is would legislative intent um follow our same policy around two readings, or like anyway, that's not a question for you.

I'm just sort of throwing it out.

But I'm gonna do that.

This particular body had that two meeting thing, and legislative intent did not follow it because it wasn't an ordinance or a resolution that they were passing, so it was part of the budget process, so it's just organically part of the process, but still required a vote to be embraced as the body's legislative intent.

Yes, okay, and they would vote on the final legislative intent list when they adopt the budget.

When they adopt the budget, but they would vote on them as they go.

Sure.

Do you know what I mean?

If somebody proposed one, then they would say yep, and then if it got votes, yep, that one's on.

Now there's one more chance that somebody could say no, I don't want it on, because they would vote then on the set.

Gotcha.

Okay.

Thank you.

Very, very helpful.

I yeah, I know that took a bit of extra time, but I was really curious about legislative intent.

Thank you.

Madam Chair, can I add something to that?

So I just wanted to point out uh, you know, council member, former council member Robinson and Councilmember Housman two years ago said, hey, let's start doing these budget priorities workshops.

And we talked, I don't know if we used the term legislative intent, but we talked a lot about that.

And so I just want to point out to you that if you look at your budget priorities, what was adopted for this year, we have put legislative intent statements at the end of each of those priorities.

They're the ones that are highlighted in green.

Okay, and so those are they're broad and they're leading into the tentative budget.

I love what Kerry's recommending in terms of hey, well, let's look at it during the budget process.

But I think you could look to those as good examples of what what legislative intent statements might look like.

And that was our intention when we helped draft those, presented them to you, and then you adopted them.

We were thinking along those lines.

So just maybe look at those as kind of an example.

Um, and I'll also point out that you'll notice that your priorities aren't necessarily listed as the uh citywide goals that uh Kerry pulled up earlier, and that's because the citywide goals are in the budget every year.

They don't they haven't typically changed all that much.

You guys can change those if you'd like to.

It just hasn't necessarily been the practice of the council to do that actively, so something else to think about.

Great.

So some points to consider when you're reviewing the budget, and I know your staff is already leading you through a lot of this, but I always like to ask myself are the revenue estimates realistic.

I was working in a legislative body once where we had a new mayor elected, and the new mayor brought in a new revenue planner, and all of a sudden our revenues were projected to be higher than they had historically been if we looked at them over a five-year trend.

And it was because, quite frankly, that mayor wanted to do more things and needed more money, and so wanted to be able to appropriate it.

And we had to go in and say you you cannot do that.

We actually have some goals around we want projections within X percent of you know where they're really going to be, and you don't get just to project additional revenue so that you can put additional expenditures in the budget.

So that's why I like that five-year trending and to take a look at it so that I can it jumps out to me if all of a sudden we're projecting some revenue sources to increase at a pace that we haven't seen previously.

Um this is one where the fees reviewed and adjusted, and Brian has suggested to me that you do a regular fee review, and that's great because if you don't, inflation eats your fees.

And remember, your fees get to recover the cost of the service, and your cost of service goes up every year.

Your cost of service has inflationary pressure, and if you're not reviewing the fees on somewhat of a regular basis, then inflation is eating away at those.

You do not, I I said this to you earlier, you do not have to recover the full cost.

I was doing at one point in my career, I was doing a lot of different business license fee analyses for communities when the law changed.

You used to be able to have a business license fee structure that sort of looked like a gross receipt structure, it was based on the gross receipts of the business.

Um the large businesses paid a lot and the smaller businesses didn't pay as much.

The state legislature changed that, and they said you have to collect business license fees that are related to the cost of regulating the business.

And so I had a whole consultancy for a few years based on doing these fee studies for different municipalities, and there were fee categories where councils would say we can't charge that fee, like those businesses will not be able to exist, and we want those businesses to exist.

Like those businesses will not be able to exist, and we want those businesses to exist.

So they made an intentional decision in certain categories to not charge the full fee.

And you need to make sure that if you're not recovering full fee, it's with that kind of intentionality that you've made a business or you've made a policy decision that you've chosen not to.

The business category where I saw it most often was home daycare.

Because if you run the process of regulating home daycare, it's very expensive because you've got to send the fire department out, you've got to send the health department out.

And you capture all of those costs, and then if you pass that on to the person who's trying to run the home day care, it's very, very expensive.

So most communities would say we're only going to recover 30 or 40% of the regulatory cost for that classification of business for that specific category.

And then they still could collect 100% for the other categories.

Does that make sense?

So just a good example of why you want to review your fees and make sure that if you're not collecting the cost of service, it's because you made the policy decision not to collect the cost of service for the fee.

You want to look at how one-time money is used in the budget.

You should not be using one time money to fund ongoing expenses.

Don't give your pay raise with fund balance, not a good idea.

You only get that once, and then that fund balance is gone.

And so you don't you want to make sure that you're aligning your ongoing expenses with ongoing revenue.

Now there is a whole budget argument to be made that there are certain amounts of one-time money that come in all the time.

That's true.

But I would still in the for the for like at a high level, I would try to align ongoing expenses with ongoing revenue.

Are transfers from other funds to the general fund reasonable and sustainable?

We've talked about that a little bit.

Our expenditure projections aligned with historic trends.

Again, the reverse side of that same thing.

Or are we just trying to get within a balanced budget?

So I would at least look at those things and make sure if they're off of historic trend, you know why you're cutting the service or something's happening along that line.

Our appropriation units in the tentative budget aligned with the council's direction.

You do not want to change your appropriation unit level, willy-nilly, because it hurts historical looking, but there are times when you might want to change them.

For example, we had one city that for the longest time had a public safety department that was both their police and their fire, and then they had this moment in time where the council said we really want to see the difference between instead of lumping it all together in one public safety appropriation line item, we want to split those out.

So they split it into police and then into fire.

But again, make sure that's policy-driven, that there's a policy reason why you want to change it because you are going to mess up historic analysis, especially if you change them very often.

You don't want to, you know, be adding and subtracting appropriation unit very often.

We're alternative service.

Yes, just really quick a clarifying question because I just I want to make sure that I understand when you say appropriation unit.

Can you be maybe a little more specific with what a unit is in the context of this?

Yep, in the general fund, it's your department, and then for all of your other funds, it's the fund.

Okay, thank you.

Okay.

Um, we're alternative service delivery options considered.

Um some of you might have been in office, and and I love to talk to John Park about this because I thought it was really bold, and I was glad that he did it when he decided that he was going to cancel the contract with the county for snow removal throughout Cottonwood Heights, and that he was going to contract that out to a private contractor.

And then that was that winter when we had like the worst storms ever, and the contractor wasn't able to come to keep up with it.

And so unfortunately, um, the council pulled the plug on that and said, we don't need to go back to the county, but we're gonna do it on our own, we can't rely on a contractor.

But but you have to test things once in a while, right?

And see if a dirt different service delivery option works.

I was working in a city one time where we had a municipal sidewalk repair program, and we had part of it that was contracted out and part of it that we were doing with in-house crews, and when we were looking at it, the cost of the in-house crew was more expensive.

And and so the initial reaction was cut the in-house crew program and let's dump it all to the contract out.

And we said, time out, let's like do an analysis, let's figure out why it cost us so much more money to run this program in-house.

Well, what we found was we were requiring the contracted crew to pour concrete at a much lower level than we were requiring of the city crew.

So then what we were able to say is what's the best engineering standard, and let's have both of them do it the same way.

Then we can analyze it again and see is one really dramatically more costly than the other.

And in the end, on that, so you know it ended up the in-house crews actually were our best route.

So we canceled the contract and brought it all back inside.

That's the kind of fun stuff that you get to ask questions about during the budget, right?

Uh, like have we looked at these alternative service delivery options?

Um, are we doing things because we always have?

This gets back to that making sure that we're aligning our services with the needs of today.

Uh, today's communities need very different things than communities even 20 years ago needed.

And so are we making sure that our municipal services are aligned?

Um, I know you know, within the last 20 years we built skate parks.

There wasn't a skate park when I was a kid.

I mean, we didn't have the we had parks, but not a skate park.

Um, and so we're aligned, we align those things, we adjust, right?

Is the capital improvement plan and the maintenance plan being implemented?

And then I would ask a side question of you know, do we have maintenance plans on things that that really probably deserve a maintenance plan?

One of my pet peeves right now, not substituting mine for elected officials, okay?

But one of my pet peeves is I'm working with a community that has numerous parks, dozens of parks, and they have playground equipment in all of those parks.

And I said, Do we have a schedule that we know how often that playground equipment we know every 25 or 30 years we need to replace it?

So, how much do we need to budget every single year so that we can stay on track that we are continually replacing that equipment on some kind of a schedule?

And and I was shocked that in 2026 the answer was we don't have that plan, and so now they're getting that plan so that then we can say to the council, this is how much we need every year if you want to keep playground equipment not becoming obsolete, that it gets replaced every 25 to 30 years as it wears out.

Those are fun questions.

See why I get excited about it, those are fun things to do, and then um of course finally are our services aligned with our organization goals and the community goals.

So those are just points to consider.

Uh, Councilmember Houseman, you already hit on this, and it's you know, starting to look at what we're buying versus what we're spending, um, and starting to look at some of our outcomes instead of inputs, outputs, time.

And I don't know about you all, but when I am in municipal budget processes, it seems like here's our base budget, and here's the new stuff, and all of our discussions is about the new stuff, and the base budget gets precious little look.

And that's where those questions that I just teed up to you of are we doing it because we've always done it, is it aligned with the community need?

That really starts to dig us then into that base a little bit, right?

And to say, are these the services that we still need?

Okay, so after you've adopted your budget, then you monitor an amend throughout the year, and we've talked about that a little bit.

Um, you should be you know looking at it usually quarterly.

I don't know if you have an ordinance, a lot of communities have an ordinance that say how often they're gonna do a review, and then amend is necessary between your appropriation levels.

Said that a few times.

I might care about it.

Okay, we're too at another to another break point.

We've been going a couple of hours.

Do people need a break?

Quick one.

Let's do it.

Quick break.

Okay.

Of course, thank you, madam chair.

Uh, if you are joining us virtually this evening and you'd like to comment on any city business, now's the time.

Go ahead and click the raise hand button on your screen.

I'll call your name in the order in which you raised your hand, and you'll have three minutes.

And madam chair, first up is Sandra Hawks.

Sandra, I'm gonna allow you to begin speaking.

Please remember to unmute yourself.

Thank you.

And give you a report about the Earth Day cleanup we had this past Saturday.

243 volunteers turned out.

That number is down about 100 from what we expected in a bright sunny spring day.

We're finding that the competition with the Saundie City Beautification Day is becoming a problem.

For example, we had no city council members on the site on any of our sites.

We did quite a few projects that were laid out for us by the county parks and rec crew.

There were uh was a crew from uh Cox Automotive from the um now I've lost it.

Federal Services Credit Union, which is across the street from Wrangled Wrangler Trailhead.

Um we also had runners from the run on trails, Wasatch Runners who helped the fire department with fire mitigation within the park.

There were um youth from the LDS church and from the Hilltop Methodist Church that did projects, and the youth also spread native uh wildflower seeds, and of course, we always encourage the youth to come back and see if their seeds grew as a way of um fostering stewardship and encouraging families to come back into the park and see what has changed.

Um in the Badger Cove area.

There was all there were also members, residents of the ridges at Dimpledale Condo community.

And at the Mount Jordan Trailhead, where we are focusing on restoring the historic orchard.

There were students and parents from the parkling elementary school that came to sort of leave a legacy in case their school is closed.

Um as I said, we are considering changing dates in order to avoid conflict with Sandy Beautification Day in the future.

We did also have one we've reached the three minute mark.

Okay, then I will not tell you about the incident that required the police.

And so that's the end of my report.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I see no other hands raised.

All right.

No other hands, madam chair.

Let's close general citizen comment and we'll go to standing reports.

Mr.

Fratto.

I'm gonna forego most of mine, Madam Chair.

I'll just remind everybody that next week we'll receive the tenant of budget.

Council member business.

Go ahead, Miss Housman.

Uh, just one quick one, which maybe it's gonna be everyone's, but uh want to acknowledge Mr.

Shane Pace for his award and being recognized as city of the year, city manager, right?

Okay, of the year.

Um that's that's well deserved and we appreciate and I won't embarrass you beyond that.

I just wanted to thank um the city employees and the Sandy Youth Council and Allison and the Rose Society for um the planting of all the really cool roses and what were those other things?

I don't know, the other things small green plants, small green plants that um there was a good turnout, and it was really fun to see the community do all of that together at the cemetery.

All right, we had two big events last year.

The League of Cities and Towns Conference, the mid-year conference in uh St.

George.

Uh Councilmember Nickel and Councilmember D'Souza joined me down there.

Over 700 attendees.

I think it might have been their biggest turnout in St.

George.

A lot of interesting, as always, a lot of interesting workshops regarding taxes.

Housing, of course, which continues to be a consistent workshop that's offered in all of their on all of their conventions.

A very, very interesting one on AI and the use of artificial intelligence for uh in cities.

Very, very interesting.

It was a packed house, a lot of really good ideas, some legal issues.

There um the state put it on, and they are in the process of kind of working out some legal policies for cities to perhaps use as a template.

But it looked like there was a lot of promise for cities, so I'll be interested to see what comes of that.

Um we did have the a lot of guests in the suite for the RSL game last week.

We had we had people from Salt Lake County, we had business people in Sandy, including from SEG, we had the Senate president, um, two Sandy legislators, a Sandy representative, the attorney general.

It was a it was a packed house and unfortunately a losing game.

And but it didn't mean that we didn't have some of our associates in the suite.

So yeah, it was pretty cold too.

Anyway, that's it for me.

Ms.

Stroud, what you got thank you, madam chair.

Um so yes, you know, on Saturday we had the youth council, quite a few members show up at the cemetery with uh, you know, Mark Taylor.

Um, and he said that and we got so on the uh on the north side, kind of that west portion along the fence, planted 40 different uh rose bushes there.

Um, and then uh and and he had mentioned there's something like another 300 that he's got coming, you know, to continue working in uh in the cemetery.

So, you know, thank you.

And I did leave, so he had asked me to leave, you know, a thank you from uh the Rose Society, you know, and those of you that weren't there, but you know, a Miss Hawk, I'll tell you, Miss Christensen and I, we were helping with the you know, at another location um, you know, with that beautification day.

And then after you know, the youth council stayed, and we did this last year as well, you know, and and uh thank you, Ms.

Edwards, Ms.

Terrio, you know, for kind of putting that together.

Um, but you know, the the I call them kids, but you know, the young adults, you know, really worked around a lot of those headstones and cleaning them up.

Um, and you know, and many of them talked about it last year, and then you know, continuing that and are looking forward to it next year.

So, you know, that's a really it's a great project, and and looking at some of those and seeing that some, you know, probably don't have uh you know current family members coming in and taking care of them.

So, you know, very needed, and ended up being a beautiful day.

Beautiful day.

So um, you know, that's where we were with the youth council, you know, and that's a you know, Mr.

Hill showed up as well and had a chance to kind of meet the council and you know took a picture together.

So um, you know, a great opportunity.

And then uh, you know, hearing you guys down in St.

George.

So I was actually uh back in in DC with Mr.

Meekham and uh and the mayor, you know, talking um, you know, about uh to our to our two congressmen, you know, Congressman Owens and Kennedy, and then as well as with the Senator Lee and Senator Curtis, you know, reminding them that Sandy is still looking for money for Monroe Street, so you know, keeping that five million dollars on their mind, you know.

Last year with the continuing continuing resolution, it you know, a lot of things just got pushed, you know, to the side and uh letting them know that Sandy's still here in need of that.

You know, it's uh you know highly important for us to have, you know, to be able to connect, you know, have that connectivity with our transportation.

So um was uh pretty valuable, you know, getting that one-on-one time with each of them and just letting them know we're here, looking forward to that.

So uh that is all.

Thank you.

Excuse that.

Um I was just gonna say that it's really nice to be back.

Um I've been recovering from a cold.

Hopefully, it's the very last one until next winter.

Um, but with that, I was able to make it down to the um League of Cities and Towns Conference, and yes, Councilmember Shark, you brought up the AI kind of lecture discussion, and that was really interesting, really informative.

Uh, we probably do need to consider uh creating a policy.

Um there's a probably a few policies that I think uh we could consider um as part of good governance and oversight, um, and that's definitely one of them.

And um as far as Sandy Beautification Day, I will say that my husband represented our family at Dimpledell with our two boys and the neighbor, um, the neighbor's little boy, uh, as part of Alta's high school mountain bike team and the um middle school's developmental uh mountain bike team that was part of trail cleanup that they're required to do as part of their participation on those teams, and I know that they really enjoyed that.

Um sad to have missed it, but um glad that I am healthy enough to get back into everything else.

Thank you.

All right, have we got a mayor's report?

CAO report for sure.

Yes, thank you, madam chair.

Just a few things.

Uh this coming Monday at 12:30.

Um our fire departments can be involved in a wildland preparedness campaign up at Heritage Park.

Uh this is the place uh park.

Uh all the uh all the fire departments on the east bench along Salt Lake Valley are going to participate.

Uh all the chiefs will speak briefly about a specific issue associated with wildline fire, and so should be a really good um uh educational thing for our for our residents, and and hopefully they will take uh the messages that they hear seriously because we could have an extremely high year with um a wet spring going into uh a hot summer.

That's the worst.

That's the worst conditions for wildland fires.

Um I spent beautification day at Storm Mountain Park.

It was wasn't a very large group, it was only about 15 people, but uh I worked side by side with a little five-year-old that did not stop, worked the whole time with his mother.

Um it was just so impressive for a little boy that age to be so focused and loving every moment of it, you know.

I better than me, I'll tell you that.

Uh I also spent time in St.

George last week, the first three days for the Utah City Managers Association conference.

It was a it was a really good conference.

We had a lot of we had some extraordinary sessions on uh conflict revolution conflict resolution uh was some really great um we paid a little bit more this year as an association for uh for um speakers and it was well worth it.

They um they were really uh really good.

Our breakout sessions, which is my favorite thing, you uh where everybody gets to learn it from each other for a for 20 minutes on a particular issue.

Um those are always my favorite.

They were really great uh to do, so I just really um enjoyed it, and my last one, so it was fun.

Uh for the closed tour session, Madam Chair, we'd like to have Jeff Robinson, of course, Ryan Meekham, Brian Kelly, Katrina Frederick, Ryan Cump, Thomas Ward, and myself.

Thank you.

Right, thank you.

I think Madam Chair, with his award that he got, yeah, there was a big belt.

I think he needs to bring that.

I was hoping you'd wear it.

It was like this weight like this, I don't know, wrestling belt.

So I'll pick.

I told Jeddah we didn't need a construction report tonight.

But do you were you prepared to give one?

Yes.

Come on, uh come on up.

Uh so things are continuing to move along.

Um the still work in the locker rooms have been completed.

Uh the still decking on level two on the south half have now been completed.

The concrete uh stair wall at the east exterior were was poured on Wednesday.

Uh this was last week.

Uh Masons completed the locker room and have now moved on to the pool equipment area with completion of that area expected this next week.

Pipe proofs continue on the storm drain lines at the east or the west parking lot.

Plumbers continue with overhead plumbing in the gym and field house, and the electricians continue with overhead conduit um in the gym and field house.

So there's still a lot going on, but it's coming together really well.

Um it also mentioned beautification day and just how great it was to see so many of our people out there volunteering and how how great of a day of weather it was.

We kind of saw the same thing where we had a lot of people sign up, and I think those numbers of them actually coming were a little lower than we expected.

So maybe something came up, I'm not sure.

Um but then yeah, also looking forward to visiting with the youth city council next Wednesday at site.

All right, thank you.

Okay, so we have a closed session.

I will make a motion that we will convene a closed session for character, professional competence, physical or mental health of an individual.

And upon completion, we will adjourn tonight's city council meeting.

Do I have a second on my motion?

I will second.

Yes, Ms.

D'Susa, yes, Mr.

DeKaiser.

Yes.

Nickel.

Yes.

Madam Chair, that motion carried seven to zero.

All right.

Thank you, everyone.

And Madam Chair, just for the record, we'll hold the closed session here at City Hall.

All right.

Thank you for clarifying that.