Let's bring the uh city of spider city council meeting to order.

We will stand for a moment of silence, then we led by the pledge of allegiance.

Mayor Pro Tim, do you mind leading us in the question?

I pledge allegiance to the fire of the United States of America.

Second.

All in favor.

Any that opposed, eyes have it.

Also, item four approval of the agenda for the August 25th, 2025 City Council meeting.

So moved.

Second.

All in favor.

Aye.

Any that opposed?

Ayes have it.

Item five.

We have public comment.

We have a packed house tonight, so we have quite a few public comments.

The way this work, ladies and gentlemen, you have two minutes.

Once you come up, I'm gonna call you by name.

Come up and give us your address, please.

And your two minutes will start after that.

We do have quite a large crowd tonight.

Please be mindful of the applause and all that.

Everyone has great points to make, but we still try to keep everything civil here.

So let's just respect one another's and their opinions.

All right.

Thank you.

Kobe Keene.

I'm sorry.

All right.

Hi, good evening.

I am Colby King, 657 Maple Street over in Congress Heights.

I'm a resident of the city, an educator, a parent, and a founding board member of Siren.

My friends and I and Siren are asking you to pass a hate crimes ordinance.

Forty-eight states have a hate crimes law, but not South Carolina.

Still 21 municipalities across South Carolina have passed one, including two cities and two counties in South Carolina that have passed an ordinance in just the past couple of months.

As an educator in the community, I appreciated seeing civic commitment to mending and strengthening this community.

My wife and I moved to Spartanburg six months later, in part because of what that resolution said about this community.

We saw Spartanburg as a diverse and dynamic community with leaders who were willing to speak about how that diversity strengthens the community.

It has been five years since the healing resolution.

Leaders don't seem to be speaking about these issues in the same way.

Many things have changed in those five years, but one thing that has not is our need for leaders who will work to protect the people of Spartanburg and strengthen our community.

Please put consideration of an ordinance on an upcoming council meeting agenda.

You've got 21 models to work from, 22 if you look at the language siren provided.

Passing a Hay Crumbs ordinance would follow through on the promises you made in passing the healing resolution.

It would protect people, express values that make Spartanburg strong, and would follow through on our promises.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Roy McBee Smith Jr.

Good evening.

Roy Smith, Roy Matthew Smith Jr., uh 203 Westminster Drive.

Uh in Commerce Heights.

Um I come to talk to you about the uh the clock uh in Morgan Square design.

Um I think that it can be a compromise in this solution and and would appease most everybody.

Um I think to tear down the clock would be a disservice to the 20,000 people who uh paid to have the clock and their name on there, myself and probably another city council member may have their name on the clock too.

Um I um I provided a handout uh that has four pages of pictures.

Uh one of them shows the original, you know, Morgan Square, uh way back when there was no trees or any, you know, parking or just buggies and and horses.

Um then I uh the same picture the same page has uh current picture of the an area of where the photo the top clock tower is now, along with the pad uh traffic patterns.

Um I show that because you can see around the clock there's a significant amount of landscaping that could be altered to allow for the three parking spaces that they require for their landscaping for their redesign of Morgan Square.

I think if you took rid of it, got rid of the landscaping, you would have ample room for that diagonal parking.

Uh page two shows the uh clock tower facing west.

Uh significant space shows more about the landscaping.

Also uh the small teardrop island that remains in the new proposal with the two trees, which would uh as they plan to make a corridor in from the west to the downtown.

I think those trees kind of block everything anyway, but um the trees can be removed too.

Um I do believe that the clock and the uh and the bell that are involved with the clock are are so important to this neighborhood and this community.

Yes, sir.

All right, well, that's my point.

Thank you.

Thank you for your material.

Stanley Case.

Thank you, sir.

My name is Stanley Turner Case.

I live at 190 Westminster, Spartanburg, South Carolina, 29302.

I'm coming to speak on behalf of the people who would like to preserve the clock tower, just as uh Roy McBe Smith has spoken of anyone in Spartanburg County that is named Jones or Smith or Turner or Case is most probably my cousin.

My family around the Case Brothers Piana Company, and anybody named Mackby or McCoy is probably my wife's cousin.

So I have many relatives here.

Uh I think the Morgan Square is an important thing for the family.

I have a little excerpt here about uh the role of Henry Turner, who was uh in an ancestor of ours out at Cherokee Springs.

And this comes uh from the uh a message on uh from an AI computer.

It says role of Henry Turner.

Henry Turner was a local farmer who played a crucial role in supporting Morgan's troops.

He barbecued a herd of beef cattle for the soldiers at Hannah's cowpins, provided much needed sustenance.

This act of generosity helped boost the morale of Morgan's men before the battle.

The battle was a decisive American victory.

Morgan's forces defeated approximately 1,000 British and loyalist troops.

The engagement marked a turning point in the Southern campaign of the Revolutionary War, demonstrating the effectiveness effectiveness of American militia when properly led.

Basically, uh this is a historical monument, and it's something that the city did.

Many people, including my cousin, Randy Case, Randolph Hollerith case, who uh went to school with some of the people here, uh paid money to keep the clock tower up.

And so basically I'm here on behalf of the neighborhood on behalf of my family to see that a compromise is worked out.

I think it'll be quite easy for uh there to be a way to get down West Maine toward the ballpark.

Thank you, sir.

Tony Tanner.

Good evening, council members.

Uh I am Tony Tanner, 128 Clemson Street.

Uh it's wonderful to see you all this evening as we approach this five-year anniversary for the Unity resolution.

What lies ahead for the River City?

The city has recognized Juneteenth by putting it into the city's holiday calendar, passed proclamations for LGBTC Plus month, and recently adopted a proclamation for National Mental Health Month, which all have intersectionalities.

The city is also the first in the city in South Carolina to be a part of GARE, the government alliance on race and equity.

The city also partnered with Wellville, my old job, on health equity work.

Our newly inducted Spartanburgers teams represent a variety of demographics, just like our residents and business owners do.

Addition, um, we are home to five different colleges and universities with students who seek to feel safe and welcomed in our community.

Among our council, we have five representatives from five different demographics.

Hate crimes happens here in Spartanburg, whether it is coded that way or not.

On December 2023, at the Circle K on the East Side, District 2 by my residents in 20 also in 2024 of State Pride, which was most current incidences.

One is too many.

Passing hate crimes ordinance will help keep these diverse groups safe and send a clear message that harming others based on their identity is unacceptable.

I urge you to pass a Roy C.

Henderson Hate Crimes Ordinance at an upcoming council agenda.

As my colleague Colby says, there are 21 existing models to reference.

Twenty-two if you use sirens suggested language.

That is about it's not just about politics here, it's about values, which are dignity, safety, and the respect for every Spartanburg resident.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah.

George Loudoun.

Yes, now my name is George Loudon.

I reside at 176 Connecticut Avenue in Spartanburg, South Carolina.

I thank the council for this opportunity to voice my thoughts on the proposal to move the Spartanburg Count Clock Tower, which, as I understand it, is protected by the Heritage Act signed by the governor.

I also understand that Wesley Stoddard had submitted an attorney general's opinion two weeks ago supporting this position.

I support the position to retain the clock tower in the Morgan Square area, and I believe it can be incorporated into the vision of that space the city is proposing.

A little background.

Wherever my life and trails have taken me, there's been one common denominator I encountered.

The sacredness and of tradition and the celebration of the place.

All peoples recognize the importance of acknowledging their history and preserving its artifacts.

If, and I say if the city deems it necessary to move the current location of the clock tower, then I propose to do so within the design framework currently developed or developed for the Morgan Square area.

With that in mind, I measured the existing tower structure and pulled what information I could find on what the city would would look what the city would like Morgan Square to look like.

I located the illustrative plan as the cover sheet for the area and the rendering of the proposed hotel as the second sheet on the corner of Spring and Maine.

Now, this these the scales may be off because I didn't have access to them, but I'm continuing anyway.

Since I did not have access to scales of the unit image, I decided to make my own scale based on relationship with the size of the cars and the surrounding rendered on the illustration.

I took the average length of a US automobile at 15 feet and measured the base of the clock tower at 9 foot and 5 inches to come up with a proposal for the city to consider.

The walkthrough opening of the clock tower is 47 inches, which could be aligned with proposed sidewalks in this illustration.

If the illustration plan is accurate, the clock towers can be placed in the southwest corner in either one or two different positions.

Alternative positions.

Sorry, thank you so much.

And please consider relocating it in conjunction with aligning it to the existing proposed site.

Thank you, sir.

Thank you.

Francis Loud.

And I'm in support of keeping the clock.

I taught first grade at Fine Street for a long time.

Didn't teach uh Jamie, but I could have.

Anyway, my kids were so excited about collecting the pennies.

We even took a field trip downtown so they could see.

And I just George and I, when we come in from the West Side, seeing that clock, it means a lot.

You know, and it's unique when we travel around.

We like to go in little towns and see the uniqueness.

I like that little island.

You know, I don't want to be an urban city.

I don't want to be like Greenville.

You know, I want our own, you know, just our own thing.

And I hope you consider at least keeping it in that plot, even if you have to move it back.

Thank you for listening.

Thank you.

Tony Eubanks.

Hello, my name's Tony Eubanks.

Uh reside at 124 Gardensley Lane in Spartanburg, South Carolina, 29306.

Uh, I've talked to you a couple of times about going down to the location of the clock tower and uh seeing some different things that have been brought up.

This past week I went down again and I done some measurements.

The measurements that I tape, hey, I took were from the clock tower to square up the property that is considered where the hotel and the other building would be located.

From the measurements I gained, the only thing that will be gained is 987 square foot surface space.

987 square foot.

That's all that's going to be gained from the way I measured.

We will be losing 19 roadside parking spaces that are very much needed.

Uh 25 spaces that are within that fixtured area that the Marriott is using now.

Uh 2,340 square feet of green space, and that is the space not where the Harold Journal was, but the space beside of it.

There are 30 trees that are mature that if this is taking place and everything is built, I hope that those mature trees can be replanted somewhere else in the city.

I think it's very important to do that.

So in my closing, I think 987 square feet is not worth the cost of what everything's scheduled to cost.

Uh 187,000, I think last time the clock was moved, so it's estimated it'll be triple that to move it again.

Uh and it was not that long a distance, it was moved.

So two uh 2,400 and people and above have uh signed a petition requesting the clock tower not be moved, and I ask that y'all take that into consideration.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Paul Abbott.

Thank you.

Paul Abbott, I am a resident of the city at 11 North Bennington Drive.

I'm also the uh Republican candidate for County Council District 3, which covers a large portion of the city of Spartanburg, and as you can imagine, the last six weeks I've spoken to a lot of people, and everyone that has expressed an opinion regarding this the clock moving, uh, has been in opposition of the moving of the clock.

So but again, of course, not everyone has that as their main issue, but the ones who did make a statement to me regarding that uh was in opposition of moving it.

So I just offer that simple information to you, ask you that you consider that whenever you are deliberating and making your final decision.

I appreciate the time to speak and appreciate y'all's services to the city.

Thank you.

Bill Tillison.

Bob, I'm sorry.

We clap and we can't hear the next person coming up, folks.

I didn't hear my name.

I didn't think so.

I'm gonna take a little different perspective on the clock, if you don't mind.

Uh those of us who have lived in Spartanburg for many years, almost 73 in my case, have been given an invaluable gift called perspective.

Long-term perspective outlasts short-term and even long-term plans a lot of times.

It outlasts money and influence, and almost always outlasts paid experts who believe they have all the best answers.

Long-term perspective remembers so many of the unrealized plans that were put on the table to be acted upon by decision makers.

Who in here remembers the multiple opportunity block plans that out-of-town firms pitched to fill a big void when the Andrews building fell?

I know.

None of you were on city council at the time, but we all remember what took place there.

Um killed several workers after a failed plan of implosion.

It took a Spartanburg native with perspective to finally build a beautiful corporate building on that spot years later.

Long per long-term perspective also remembers plans that were actually realized, but failed to live up to the promise of planners who reinvented old ideas from other areas.

No one can predict the future adequately, but once again, planners without local perspective who will not live out their lives in Spartanburg do not have a long-term vested interest in their plan.

The most obvious was an attempt in the 1970s to save downtown retail by closing two blocks of Main Street, making it a pedestrian mall.

City officials, downtown merchants, they all believe creating an open-air mall with convenient back street parking would be the salvation of downtown retail.

Wrong plan for the wrong time.

The only part that had lasting impact on Spartanburg was building of the clock tower, and it was relocated to its current site when Main Street was reopened to traffic.

Mr.

Tillison, that's gonna be your time.

Thank you.

Sorry about that.

Thank you, sir.

Good call.

Mr.

Tillison, you have that already uh mailed out.

Email that to us, the entire uh piece.

Thank you, sir.

James Jones, James A.

Jones, 336 Marion Avenue.

Mr.

Mayor, members of council.

Um the Danny Morgan clock tower is our tower.

It was built by the people of Spartanburg.

20,000 citizens, as you've heard, gave their pennies, nickels, and dimes.

Children lined up to donate their names so their names could be written into history.

And now developers want it moved.

And does this council listen to the developers or do they listen to the people?

You didn't ask the people, you didn't get consent.

You cannot put and should not put profit over people.

That's not leadership, that's betrayal.

This is more than wrong.

It may even be unlawful.

You got the heritage act, you've heard about it.

But even more than that, it's about respecting your people.

Respect people who built it, respect the children whose names are carved into its foundation.

To move or to destroy it is to rob these children and their legacy to the developers.

The clock tower belongs to us, not to you, not to the developers, to us.

So hear this clearly.

To move the clock tower is not progress.

It's not the Spartanberg we love.

It's theft.

And it will not stand by and history will not look well at you for doing so.

As I remind you, the first time you took the gavel as mayor four years ago, I ask you, why would you try to prevent homeowners from having their homes rented as Airbnb, stealing from homeowners to profit developers and hoteliers?

They have their own people to market for them and to cheerlead for them.

You were elected to represent the people, not the developers, not those hotel owners.

Listen to the people.

I pray you do.

Thank you.

Kimberly.

You didn't hear I'm sorry.

Good evening.

It's good to see you again.

Good to see you as well.

I know you're about tired of meeting.

No, we're not, not at all.

Usually the city manager over here.

Um I'm here to address um the council again and city manager.

Uh latest petition as of 420 today.

We have confirmed 20 2,422.

Um, supporters for the downtown Spartanburg clock tower to remain where it is.

Um if we allow this to continue to happen like it happened in 79 when or 89 when it was moved after it had been standing only 10 years.

When does it stop?

In another 50 years, which we won't be here, it won't matter, but it matters to our children and our grandchildren.

We're leaving a legacy, we're leaving a heritage.

Our names are engraved in there or in inscribed in there for a reason.

Um we were barely old enough to vote.

We were freshly out of high school when it was last moved.

We didn't have the protection of the South Carolina Heritage Act then, and I pray um, as others here that wear our badge and support for the clock that um that you consider that so um we have we're working with our senator, our house representatives.

We have a letter which we handed in last week or the last meeting uh two weeks ago.

Um we understand that we may, as we were told as we were leaving, to just sue the city.

We don't want to sue the city, sir.

We want to we want to kind of comp some kind of compromise to work, to keep our clock, keep our heritage, but bring in development.

We're not here to say no to development or growth in our county or in the city, um, but we don't want to destroy what we have.

It it is um I do also have proof that it was fill under the bicentennial clock uh committee back then, so I will leave these items.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you all for your comments as well.

Uh item six item six boards and commission appointments, Miss Christy uh Lindsay, city clerk.

Good evening, Mr.

Mayor and Council members.

I'm before you this evening.

We have two individuals who have been uh recommended to be appointed to our boards.

Um one is for our board of zoning and appeals.

Uh the uh recommendation is that Guy Harris be appointed to this board, and for the public safety board, the committee is recommending three win be appointed to this board.

Um, and so I will look to you for um direction.

Uh do we need any other information?

Council will recommend their motion.

I'll make a motion that we approve the two appointments.

Second.

All in favor?

Aye.

Any that opposed?

Ayes have it, Ms.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Item seven resolution.

Hey, resolution approving the purchase of property located at 488 Mock Street bearing the tax mat number 7-12-13-043.00.

Presenter, Mr.

Martin Livingston, Community Development Director.

Good evening, Mr.

Mayor, members of council.

Staff is requesting approval of a resolution to purchase 488 Monk Street.

Staff has worked, uh worked in agreement with the property owner for the purchase of this property, and also I've completed an appraisal of the property.

The lot will be included in along with the other 30 lots in that area in the midtown heights area.

Um we'll develop a small area development plan of guide development in that area.

Martin, I drove over there yesterday because I want to see exactly if we have this lot was and I drove back in there.

However, as a realtor, I know that all real estate has value.

Even if not now, because it will in the future.

Yes, there are several homeowners live in the area.

There's also property in that area.

We own several lots adjacent to this lot as well.

So we can combine all the lots and then uh subdivide the lots for potential development.

We the small area plan will probably guide that process for us and give us some ideas of what can be developed in that area.

Thank you.

I just wanted to see where it was.

Thank you, Ruth.

Any other questions?

We need a motion, recommend a motion.

I make a motion that we approve.

Second.

All in favor?

Aye.

Any that opposed?

Ayes have it.

Thank you.

B.

Oh, Chris.

Resolution enter into the development agreement uh with Taft and Gibbs LLC to redevelop the former Beaumont Mill site with a multiple multi-flat family apartments for rent.

Uh resolution and presenter, Mr.

Story, City Manager.

Mr.

Mayor, members of council, what's before you is another economic development item associated with meeting the rapidly growing housing demand in our community.

Uh as uh I'm sure you're all familiar with the the site of the former Beaumont mill on uh North Pine Street has uh the portion of the mill that was renovated to become offices, which is the headquarters uh the professional offices for uh the Sparma regional health care system and affiliated entities.

Um and then on the other end of that long um uh block is a medical office um uh medical center between the two is a large uh at this point vacant uh commercial site.

This action would authorize a development agreement for a 70 million dollar investment uh to uh provide 247 market rate apartments, 28 workforce units, those workforce units will be for those at 80 percent of below area mediate income at rents attainable to those income levels.

It's an attractive uh project by a reputable developer that will in um you know it involves a full amenity package, pool fitness center, all those types of things.

One special aspect of the transaction is it would provide for the ability to connect the the Dan trail network through that site, which is a has been a challenge.

Um as you know, we've we've uh with our partners Powell have done a number of trail improvements that connect uh Drayton and uh Converse Heights and Fernwood and all uh to the Beaumont neighborhood, uh, but then making that connection from Beaumont to uh Pine Street and downtown and beyond has been a goal in this project would enable that.

Um so in addition to providing in an efficient attractive uh needed housing.

Um so in addition to providing in an efficient attractive uh needed housing, uh this of course would boost um local government revenues, it's a ramped uh ramped up uh um model we've uh followed in other transactions.

The year one additional local governmental revenue from the from the transaction would be about just under 100,000 dollars.

Year five would be over half a million dollars, year 10 1.1 million, and year 15 1.8 million.

So continue to have multiple levels of benefit uh based on this transaction, and so we recommend your approval.

It would then, if approved, would then go through the development review process, building code review process, and things of that nature.

But uh certainly happy to answer any questions that you might have.

Mr.

Mayor, yes, Chris, thank you.

Um the Beaumont Neighborhood Association, the um has sort of faded over the years after since COVID and really weren't meeting but learning about this project.

I reached out to one of the residents who was actively involved and um asked if they could meet to just sort of have a discussion about this project because I wanted them to be aware of what was happening and what was potential to come.

Um, of course, I had another meeting the night that they um convened, and I thank you very much for going and answering questions.

But can you share a little bit about?

I mean, I did speak to him the next day, um, didn't seem to get a whole lot of negativity towards the project.

I think one of the biggest concerns was um the traffic through the neighborhood and the concerns how folks may you know cut through, you know, North Liberty.

I know that's been an issue in the past.

Um, but they were you know appreciative of the nod of the design, how it sort of gives a nod to the historic style of the mill next door.

Um, but can you share a little bit?

I mean, there we did do a traffic study, correct?

And there weren't any yes, we the full traffic study uh has been conducted for the site.

Most of the volume uh will um uh or the vast majority won't directly impact the the Beaumont village, it will exit the site onto Pine through that signalized intersection and the signalized intersection at uh Beaumont and ISEM.

Uh that traffic study has been reviewed by our planning staff as well as SC DOT's uh planning staff as North Pine is uh is in their jurisdiction, as is Isum.

So across the whole it it it appears that we're well situated in terms of turn lane capacity and signal timing uh to accommodate the project.

I think um you know I'm I'm in favor of the of the project itself, but I would ask that we are proactive in some of the traffic calming measures through the neighborhood, those are specific concerns that the neighborhood had.

Um I didn't hear necessarily any opposition to the project itself, but that traffic being a huge concern.

So if this were to move forward, um that is something I would like for us to put at the forefront before dirt starts churning.

So Chris, I'd like to echo that.

I I think that's always been an issue, and and particularly as it relates to you know, ISOM and Pine and North Liberty and Beaumont.

I mean, there's just a lot of activity there, and and 247 new you know, residents or more that will move into that piece of property.

I think they really need to be some good planning.

But I'm excited about the project.

We've all I think had the chance to meet the developers, they're they're they're quality folks, they did quality work.

Um they're I think consistent with the developers that we've been attracting into our community uh of late, and I think that is to everyone's benefit.

Uh I love the tie-in with the trail system.

Um, you know, I know in talking to the lap personal folks that developed uh box car, you know, that was one of the key components that they were attracted uh to the area by and as well as what they did at at the um the Kennedy or the Fitzgerald, sorry.

Um so you know, I I think that's that's all very exciting.

Uh I note that you conclude the table here on on what the estimated property tax revenue schedule will be starting with year one going through year 15.

Do you you know currently what the tax revenue generated by that property is?

Well, this particular parcel has no taxable asset on it, so it's just it would be at the residual land value from when it was originally purchased.

I don't know that figure, but it's a tiny fraction.

So just to just to put a finer point on that, um, by by this development, not only will we get a 70 million dollar investment uh residents for 247 or more uh you know um Spartanburg folks, as well as the the 28 that will be workforce housing, which accomplishes all of the goals that we've established for these kinds of projects.

We will begin in year one generating more tax revenue than that property is already generating, even with abatements as part of this development deal.

That's correct.

That's correct.

And that will only compound in years two, three, four, leading up to year 15 when it's a million eight hundred thousand.

That's correct, yes, sir.

Okay.

Good.

Good.

Chris, uh, and I will echo the same sentiments with traffic as you travel.

I would imagine that's south as I'm thinking you're gonna go in up by Comverse College.

Again, you know, we don't we want to be mindful of the traffic trying to cut through to get to the apartment.

So again, as councilman mayor pro Tim Brown and uh Councilman Foreman mentioned just the traffic study, making sure we are definitely being more proactive with that coming forward, but again, great uh opportunity for Spartanburg.

Any other comments?

Recommend a motion, Mr.

Mayor make a motion we uh approve uh item B resolution to enter into agreement with out Gibbs.

Second, all in favor?

Aye.

Any that opposed.

I have it.

Thank you, thank you.

Item eight discussion of the clock tower options.

Presenter, Mr.

Story.

Got a lot of people listening out there now.

Yes, sir, Mr.

Mayor.

Uh but before I dive in, and I do have more slides than some might wish I had, so I'll uh apologize in advance for the relative deeper dive of uh that I'll soon take.

But before I dive in, I just just want to uh uh say as I often do when there's uh uh uh controversial sort of item on the agenda that there are no enemies in this room that the the this night when we have more folks than we typically have is evidence of the health of the community that comes to express concern about and interest in the activities of the community.

The real enemy that I worry about is not opinions for folks, it's apathy from folks.

And uh so I don't see anyone that uh cares to come forward and share their views and get information on something like that is anything other than a uh a welcome participant in the life of the community.

Uh we do live in an age though where uh uh there's a whole lot of pressure on people to quickly form opinions and uh to um I hope I don't expect I don't expect uh that their audience members tonight that come dead set against any change that'll walk out a hundred percent in support of change.

I don't expect that, but I do expect over the next few minutes that uh we'll be able to add some meaningful context and some meaningful understanding uh to the situation that will help to reassure folks that the recommendation that the city staff is making to you is grounded and reasonable and respectful and appreciative of this community's history and um in line uh with efforts to make a more prosperous uh Spartanburg.

You know, we know that change is the only constant um and that change is inherently unettling.

Um so I wanted to take the time to explore a broader view of the history.

Um a good friend of mine who is uh a local historian um whose judgment uh I rely on on several matters uh used a phrase that I think is palpable in this moment.

He said he said there's a difference between memory and history.

So I'm gonna talk a little bit about his the history um and and how we see what's proposed in light of the the full picture of local history.

And finally, before I dive in, I want to thank um uh the uh staff at the Spartan County Public Library whose tremendous archives I've been diving into here.

They have a wonderful uh depth of information available about each point in the history that I'll that I'll share.

And um I'll also emphasize that everything I'm gonna share in the next few minutes is public information and has been accessible through uh through the library or through much of it through our own website um over the over the past years um and uh as this presentation will be as well.

So let's dive into the the history of the town clock and the relevant context.

Start the timeline at the first time this town had a clock.

1881, the clock was purchased and installed as a prominent architectural feature of a new local government building.

1881 is also the year that the uh the city charter uh was approved uh by the state government, and so some point to that day is the is the day uh as the year Spartanburg was established as a as a city or town, and at that time uh the the city leadership built what was known as the opera house on Main Street.

Uh this uh was it did include an event venue opera house on the second floor, but its first floor was city offices, the seat of local local government in the community, and that building was the pride of the community, and you see its most prominent architectural feature was the tower that uh contained the clock and the bell that we'll talk about more tonight.

That sat in place 26 years in 1907.

The clock moved and was installed as a prominent architectural feature of a new local government building.

At that time, it was this courthouse on Magnolia Street, and you see different architectural style, similar composition, in that there were uh several floors of uh of various spaces, and then a signature element architecturally that included the clock uh the town clock there.

So a lot of similar similarities between those two structures, but they served different generations.

So that uh clock was in the courthouse from 1907 to 1958, and in 1958, the clock was put in storage uh and a decision was made that there wouldn't be a clock tower element in the new county courthouse, what was then the new county courthouse.

Obviously, it's no longer the new county courthouse because it was demolished within the last uh uh handful of years to make way for the current county courthouse.

Um so that um so at 1958, they would the the clock uh and the bell were moved into the basement and sat in storage for 20 years.

In 1979, the clock and the bell were restored, and a new uh what we now know as the clock tower.

New tower uh tower was erected at the intersection of Maine and Liberty.

Uh that uh Maine and Liberty was as was referenced by common commenter tonight, uh part of the main street mall, Main Street Pedestrian Mall.

That uh that intersection was known as Liberty Square.

Um my name's not in the clock.

Uh I moved to Spartanburg as a boy in 1983.

But I made it in time to shop on Main Street and see the clock tower at Liberty Square at that intersection.

Um and uh remember its placement there, literally in the center of that intersection.

There was some there were some remarkably positive things uh about that effort.

Uh Mayor Stoddard, former then former Mayor Stoddard, uh chaired bicentennial committee, and I'll certainly be talking more about that in the next few minutes.

Um they uh identified a number of uh things and activities, but a committee was appointed to explore uh restoring the the clock and the bell.

Um that committee went out uh to engage a number of stakeholders and to and to get some support, and I'll and I'll comment on that in just a minute.

But before I do, I wanted to remind folks here what the context was in that period of the mid-70s in Spartanburg.

These are not my opinions, these are facts.

Westgate Mall had just opened.

That was all the buzz, right?

Also, at the same time, uh there was a substantial increase in uh what some social scientists call white flight, but the the residential relocation from the aging housing stock in the city to newer neighborhoods further out.

That was a predominant condition.

So the folks that were sitting in your shoes at that time had naturally a great deal of angst about the core of downtown.

That was that had to be the thing that kept them up at night staring at the ceiling is they knew the retailers were leaving or had left, and they knew that there were socioeconomic and uh uh factors that were pulling the center of activity to the commercial nodes on the east side and the west side and in other places in Spartanburg County, that they had every reason to be concerned that extraordinary steps needed to be taken to solidify a sense of connection between the next generation and downtown Spartan, and I believe that their engagement of some 20,000 uh residents in uh building the clock tower was wonderful and brilliant.

We have seen evidence of folks saying that that is something they they have they recall a connection to.

So at the same set of years that they went from shopping for their back to school clothes in downtown to shopping for their back to school clothes out at the mall or at Hillcrest, this was one effort that solidified connection.

Why was that important?

It was important because downtowns across America work because they efficiently create uh opportunity for folks at all income levels and they create successive opportunities for subsequent generations.

So I suspect that the city leadership at that time was very concerned about losing their downtown.

And I think that was their principal motivation.

And frankly, I think it's much more significant uh motivation than putting names on plaques and uh raising the funds.

If you look back at the funds that were raised, you'll find that they are a small fraction of what it cost to build the clock tower.

I'm not suggesting that that's insignificant.

I'm a parent, I have kids, and I know when they go into their own pockets to invest in things, the dollar amount doesn't matter.

But the point is that uh that it was done as a community engagement strategy, and it was wonderful and it worked.

Um but the principal motivation for undertaking that communication uh I mean that community engagement strategy was deep and very necessary concern about the future of downtown and its importance to the region.

So that's um that project um and I didn't include in this uh uh uh a photo of it at the Liberty Intersection, but the actual tower itself looked very much the same.

Um the tower, the vertical part of the tower structure um uh as the photo you see here when the clock um uh was moved to its current location.

Now, why did that current why did that move happen?

That moved happened because as was commented upon tonight, uh the pedestrianization of uh those blocks of downtown at that time in that generation didn't work.

Now we could have lots of discussion about why that didn't work, but I think if you want to know the answer, you would look at aerial photographs of Westgate and Hillcrest Mall of in the 80s.

That I was a frequent visitor to those places uh after I moved here, and they were busy and thriving.

And so I think that the effort to reopen Main Street was another important step to try to get to the condition where downtown is thriving and busy and the default uh place uh for activity and interest.

It's noteworthy to me as I think about the the current and future of the community where my 12-year-old daughter asked dad to take her and her friends today.

It's not to the malls, it's to downtown Spartanburg.

That is a very very different condition.

So in 1989, it moved to its current location.

What made this geographic location work was that there was a significant additional road right away there because many of us remember Main Street used to sweep around the curved uh parking lot next to the Herald Journal sweep right into Broad Street, and you could you can continue on.

So there was a logical underutilized footprint there for that 6,500 square foot landscape island in which the clock tower currently sits.

So the next point on this timeline that I think is particularly significant is that in 2020 uh or you all have seen that picture, I think it was already up, or maybe I clicked the wrong button.

Uh, but that's how it sits, sits to sits uh today.

I'm not sure the date on this picture, but roughly the same.

Um a 6,500 square foot landscape island in the in the center of uh what is Main Street.

Uh the next point on this timeline is this year.

2025, construction begins on a new local government building featuring a new taller clock tower architectural feature.

So I'll show you some images of that here today and I think all of these are you know images that have been publicly available here.

Um you see the the clock tower there, uh it is about a hundred and thirty something feet tall in comparison to the to the to the 70-foot uh clock tower we have now.

It will be the central uh central hub of the new joint city county governmental complex.

A few additional images of that.

It will be one of the tallest structures in this in this section of downtown.

This is this is a view from if you were standing at the corner of church in Maine.

So a full block and a half, two blocks away.

Uh that clock tower will be uh a new feature of our skyline and a new landmark in this community.

Here's another look.

This is this is looking uh from the south as you would be approaching if you were traveling north on Church Street.

Um see that there.

Um this is another look is if you were on the the sidewalk of Church Street, walking south on the sidewalk, how the clock tower will look there.

And that's just another slightly different perspective from the main entry.

Um we look back at that timeline.

I think that's a that's a more comprehensive picture than some of the framing of uh the history of a town clock and the connection there.

I want to show these side by side uh because I've heard folks say um that what we're proposing disregards our history.

Uh I think all of that is dependent on how one looks at the history.

What I see is three local government, three the three buildings that were for their generation the principal seat of local government in Spartanburg with three uh uh clock tower elements as their principal architectural feature, and then I see uh uh standalone freestanding clock tower, which is what occupies our memories because it's what we're exposed to, but ignores the first two images, which are our history.

Uh and the objective of the committee at that time in the 70s at the bicentennial effort was to create they they were not in a position to undertake a new local government building and to hearken back to the history of those prior seats of local government.

So they did what what they could and what was appropriate for them at that moment, just as their parents and grandparents had done and their parents and grandparents had done.

So what we've proposed, in addition to erecting a much uh taller clock tower, is to take the the truly unique historic elements that are within the building and celebrate them.

Make it so your kids and mine and your grandkids and others can get close to them to understand how those historic clockworks worked, to see that bell they've only seen from from hundreds of feet away, or at best 70 feet away.

Um, and uh get close to those things.

Um what you see here on this slide are two images from other communities that have done just that with other historic clockworks.

You see them the labor-intensive mechanics that went into building those, those are up on the inside of the clock tower right now.

Only a handful of have seen it.

Christopher George is in the back, he climbed that ladder to see it.

Um, but I'm and maybe there are others in the room, but not many that have seen.

Uh I'd like to make them visible.

I think it would be in our interest to do so.

This is a slightly more famous bell uh than the bell that's uh uh uh in ours, but it shows, and that bell, of course, one point in its history was in you know up above and in the air.

This shows that if you if you bring it down, polished it up and put it at ground level, it creates an interesting place to interact with and an interesting illustration that people can connect to of their history.

I think that's an idea worthy of exploration.

So just to just to recap a little bit of the history, um, for 124 years, a town clock has been a feature of downtown for over 60 percent of that time that has been in the form of an architectural feature of a prominent local government, and recent city and county actions have ensured that that will be the case for the coming generations.

So again, I think I think seeing it in its whole context, uh it's possible to see how this is an entirely appropriate uh transition to recapture the spirit that folks felt was missing in 1970s when they came together to have these conversations about the clock tower.

So I will I will I'll now pivot to the question that's been been raised about the South Carolina Heritage Act.

Um South Carolina Heritage Act uh is a piece of legislation that was hashed out in Columbia when the Confederate flag was being brought down.

Um at that time uh there were some folks that said we'll we'll remove the Confederate flag, but we want to make sure we don't remove other things associated with at that time their principal motivation was the Confederate War, I mean the the Civil War.

Um so this was the compromise that was hashed out.

Now I could talk for just as long as I've been talking about this, about why it may be wrong for these type of local decisions to be made in Columbia and not locally, uh but the reality is the law is clear, and we would we intend to follow the law.

Let's read what the law says.

The law says is no revolutionary war, war of 1812.

Well, y'all can read all that.

I won't read it to you.

So in order to argue that the South Carolina Heritage Act applies to the clock tower, one would have to conclude that the clock tower is a revolutionary war monument.

Has no known connection to any other wards.

The revolutionary war connection to the to the extent that there would be one is in the fact that the bicentennial, which was again the celebration of the Declaration of Independence, that the Bicentennial Committee was an advocate for and conceived of bringing uh erecting the clock tower.

That's the connection that advocates uh for the application of this uh act to this situation are making.

So we ought to examine that, right?

Well, the first piece of evidence I would look to is what did they actually say when they built the clock tower?

These are the same plaques that are there today.

You can read them uh for yourself.

Um what you won't find.

I mean, you can't read them off of this, but go read them after the meeting.

I'm sorry, I know these are bad pictures.

I was trying to just establish that the the they are in fact the the same ones that were put in place on the ground in 1979 and that remain on the ground at the at the foot of the clock tower today.

Well, let's talk first about what you won't find in this 740-word essay.

You won't find the word revolution, you won't find the word war, you won't find the word soldier, you won't find any of those things.

You will find the a reference to that I will read one sentence uh in the 740-word uh discussion.

In the 1970s, efforts were begun by the Spartanburg Bicentennial Committee to restore this symbol of the city in an appropriate central location.

That's the extent of any reference to any war of uh uh uh of you know, or the revolution itself.

The opening line of uh of these plaques is when when again the folks who acted in the 70s told us what their intent was.

The opening line is symbolic of the heartbeat of the city and its constant change.

That's what they told us.

Um let's talk about other things that the bicentennial committee uh did.

Bicentennial committee was a very successful effort.

Uh former mayor Stoddard led a remarkable, they were there were a number of subcommittees that did a number of different endeavors, various meeting media reports and Herald Journal coverage and and other things list uh some 20 plus projects, activities, and initiatives.

Uh one news article says let's see.

Uh see what they were working under was uh a desire to to participate in a national effort that required um present projects to be undertaken in order to qualify for the bicentennial uh uh designation and funding that they were seeking.

And so there were uh let's let me find the exact wording.

Uh there was one list uh wherein the project prioritization committee identified uh, I believe it was 16 different uh projects and priorities, and ranked number 14 on that list below 13 others was the clock tower.

Uh this is a uh this document here is a report of the bicentennial committee.

uh where wherein the project prioritization committee identified um i believe it was sixteen different uh projects and priorities and ranked number fourteen on that list below 13 others was the clock tower uh this is a uh this document here is a report of the bicentennial committee it says some thirty odd projects were endorsed and most of them have been completed some of the some of the projects include restoration of the say house uh restoration of uh magnolia street cemetery um there's another cemetery cemetery referenced here uh walnut grove house of flowers uh little theater production a number of different things some with all with a tie to community all with a tie to um positive activities but what the law requires is a tie to the revolutionary war that's not at a in any way established in any of the many pages of documents I have read associated with the bicentennial committee so for those reasons and and others uh we believe that in order to conclude this this applies you'd have to look at all 20 plus projects that were implemented uh that were associated with the bicentennial and conclude that they all apply as uh decisions that have to be made by Columbia we just don't think that meets the test of reasonableness so uh we are not operating under the expectation that uh any change city council might consider related to the clock tower um is subject to uh review in accordance with the South Carolina Heritage Act so I'll pivot now to um new main streets sort of the question of why now would be one way to think about this well remember those folks in the 70s who were really scared about downtown really scared about it its role in the region and being lost and left behind well now we have not one but the two largest investments in the city's history inflation adjusted by a long ways happening currently in our time this is the kind of stuff those folks in the 70s desperately sought to to see happen to solidify their downtown as a center of gravity that might be appealing to their children and grandchildren and great grandchildren and they are happening now and they force us all to consider adapting to some change this illustration I know is hard to see from there but I'll tell you what's uh what it shows um the uh the lower left uh corner of the uh of the image is you can just see the uh the outfield wall of the new baseball stadium the upper right hand corner of the image is the heart of Morgan Square where you see uh number four on the left hand edge of the image that's a new office building that'll be on Main Street uh immediately west of the AC hotel that will begin construction this year this year within the next couple months where you see number three that's the AC hotel where you see number two that's a new office building so we're dealing with well over a thousand white collar jobs concentrating on our main street white collar jobs the kind of jobs we'd all hope our kids or grandkids could benefit from concentrating on Main Street where you see number one is is a hotel with restaurant and retail spaces so collectively again we're looking at the large single largest single investment in the city here history where if you incorporate what's going to happen just to just where the where the actual legend is on this on this particular illustration is the former city hall block when that block renovation starts in a couple months it'll be the second largest capital investment in the city's history adjusted for inflation so all of these are happening concurrently and in the and in a um small small area here lots of jobs uh lots of work lots of visitors to this community we expect to have one thousand construction workers in this image illustrated uh right here uh in this footprint

So all of these uh are happening uh concurrently and in the and in a um small small area here uh lots of jobs, uh lots of work, lots of visitors to this community.

We expect to have 1,000 construction workers in this image illustrated right here in this footprint over the next two years.

So this is not uh I this is when I'll um be can't be more pointed about one of the criticism I've I've heard.

One of the criticisms I've heard is we're just doing the bidding of a developer here.

This is this is not the developer's preference.

This is our community's aspiration for creating the downtown that can be an engine for a generation.

Now, why does this affect the clock tower?

Uh you can see I've added to this illustration uh a dashed blue line.

We believe it's important, not just today, not just tomorrow, but forever, uh, for the Herald Journal block to be built to that historic form street edge.

The buildings on the on the to the right hand end of that dashed blue line have existed for generations and uh they have aligned with the basic uh the the aspect that doesn't deviate.

I mean, I'm sorry, the aspect that deviates from the historic form of our downtown is the swing that uh that is sort of the the turn in in Main Street.

That's the piece that you won't find on maps from a hundred years ago.

Um and so we're trying to respect the original form.

We're also trying to build what is gonna be one of the South's best main streets uh on the other side of all this work.

Um this is uh one of several images of the Herald Journal block development that I'll share, and again, all of this has been readily available on the city's website uh for months now.

Uh you see uh in the background in the upper left, you see the baseball stadium.

Um in the upper right, you see the AC hotel and the new uh office building adjacent to it.

And as you come forward towards this towards the square, you'd pass an office building, a big event venue adjacent to and connected with the hotel, uh several restaurant retail spaces and the hotel there.

The hotel contains that includes a you see on the roof there a rooftop uh event space, restaurant, um, and a rooftop pool and things of that nature.

This is uh an award-winning design, uh a top-tier quality design, and one that I think the community can be proud of for a long long time.

Um again, collectively, we're talking about over 300 million dollars of private resources being invested here.

Um you see this is just a slightly different angle of of the same block, and this is more of a street view angle.

You can see how the facades align, and that is made possible by taking out the the wiggle in the road, and again, this creates the the street image and the street life that we've been aspiring to since back in the 70s.

So all of that is to say uh that we are recommending that we return the clock tower to its historic position overlooking the seat of local government, that we restore the bell and the clockworks to publicly accessible elements in the new building, and that we achieve the optimal main street.

We know that that means that folks whose names are in the clock tower, many, many, many of my friends and uh our friends and everyone are in that boat.

We know that that means that that destination um uh would be somewhat different, but it does not go away.

It's returned to to its his historic uh location, it's still a place that uh kids and grandkids can be taken to see those names on those plaques.

It's in a it's in a facility that is theirs that they can be proud of forever, and uh there's a very solid reason consistent with this community's history for making that move.

So we believe it's responsible and prudent to go ahead and uh and make that um uh and we believe that instead of uh focusing on what is the uncomfortable change.

I would ask those of you whose names in that clock to lean in to the spirit that Mayor Stoddard and others were attempting to cultivate of stewardship for your main street and your downtown, lean into that and think about what is best uh in the long run uh for your community.

Um and I know I've said too much, maybe uh I know that uh talked too long.

Uh but to be candid, we have looked.

It is possible to move it.

Uh but candidly the the the principal reason that uh I'm not recommending moving it is because it because two clock towers within a block or two of each other, just take this just to take the shine off both thank you, uh Mr.

Stewart.

And uh and the um uh we're trying to you know restore and honor the the history of the original impetus uh for that, and we think it's responsible move to make.

This is a staff recommendation to the council.

It is of course the council's private prerogative, what happens.

The clock can be moved.

Um in the town, I mean that the tower can be moved.

Uh and there are locations within the downtown where that could be achieved.

Um so those are those are options available to us.

The resources for making that move happen would be uh I would recommend being the restructuring of um uh the the cost uh we can make some design changes to the to the plans for Morgan Square to reduce the next net cost of that function to be able to absorb the cost of of moving uh it if that's the the will of the council and so why don't I thank you and see what questions good good good and I now I'm sure each council person have uh a few questions in mind, but uh I do want to say thank you for your presentation and and thank you for all the ones that have stayed to to hear it out as well.

A lot uh times we get public comments, they come in and make a few and they leave, but I do appreciate all of you staying just to hear what uh had to be said, Miss Branch, thank you, and to the starters family, we want to thank them.

Um I want to thank them personally, but um, and and to you all in the uh audience, my my name is inside the clock tower.

So I am one of those kids that that you know use some of his allowance to give towards this clock tower, and I do understand the history, not so much as a memory, Chris, as you stated, but the history.

Uh that history lesson you gave was pretty good, pretty pretty deep.

Uh I I sit here and I reminisce on quite a few things you you have mentioned going downtown to community cash to actually get my uh school closed, but also I do remember transitioning to the mall.

So it can go on and on, and uh as we uh state uh those facts, but I'll I'll quit rambling.

Council questions.

I have a statement.

Statement, Miss Sally.

Chris, I want to say thank you for your presentation.

It was very, very well done and uh well said and well put.

It was very, very well done and uh well said and well put I am and I'm maybe speaking out of term, but I am in favor of moving or taking the clock down and putting it into a beautiful building that's going to be constructed and being seen from both sides of the uh main streets and as far as uh government building it represents very well.

My biggest concern is to make sure that the bell and the other integral parts of the clock on the inside is and the names, of course, uh be displayed in the public place where it can be recognized and told the story behind each element.

Thank you.

Mayor Protein Chris um assuming if this were to be the clock tower, and you mention you know folks can bring their kids and their grandkids, are is the um county city administrative building going to be open 24 hours a day?

So no, it would not envision to be open to the house.

How are people supposed to?

I mean, one of the the features of the current work location is you know, kids are out during the summertime, they've got you know their families downtown, they're walking, and they can literally give them comments about the historical nature of the clock tower, show their grandkids the bricks, etc.

So how are folks?

I mean I'm just trying to wrap my head around you know the city county building now becoming sort of a tourist destination, if you will.

Um during during regular, you know.

I mean, it's like well, kids are in school every day.

So and I assume this building will not be accessible on the weekends.

So, how are folks supposed to tell the story of their grandparents and parents and all the things when this isn't going to even be accessible?

And just a personal taste opinion, I hate the design of the clock tower in the I I just I'm not I just don't like the design, but I also didn't like the Morgan Square design, so it's just a matter of personal taste.

I like the classical feel of what it currently is.

I personally, and you know, you talked about you know there might be potential to move it to another place in downtown.

I mean, we just delayed Morgan Square because we don't have the money to move forward, but now we're talking.

I mean, how are we gonna incorporate looking at funding for that when we don't really have a budget right now for Morgan Square because that's kind of been put on the back burner?

So I think that's a few that's a number of different questions.

I think, but I would like to see it maintained in some capacity.

I mean it means something to folks.

I I don't, you know, I'm not in a structural engineer or anything like that, and so there is there begs those questions in terms of being able to properly take it down and relocate it.

I don't know anything about that.

I mean, this is just a wish list.

I don't know if it's attainable, but I'm personally not even a fan of the current clock tower design in the new building.

Um I'm a fan of the new building itself, and I'm excited for it to come, but I I don't know, I just it's not very appealing to me.

But I also didn't like Morgan Square.

Sorry, yeah.

I'll I'll attempt to uh address a couple of those questions.

One is um we had thought that um the display elements uh would be better to be indoors, um protected from the weather, things of that nature.

Um but there's nothing that says it has to be that way.

Um I think the irrespective of uh uh opinions on the uh the the architectural appeal of the new clock tower.

I certainly understand where you're coming from there.

It will be uh a skyline feature and visible from a much greater distance and uh tastefully lit at night and things of that nature um uh in a way that it will be very visible, very prominent uh 24-7.

Uh but the in but the displays that we had envisioned of the clockworks and the the bell itself, we'd envision being inside, but there's nothing that says it has to be that way.

Councilwoman.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Chris, I really appreciate the history that you shared with us and especially the context, the historical context that that city council was responding to.

And I believe it's the job of each version of a city council to respond and shape the present, respect the past, but also vision for the future.

And to your point, our downtown is still not as robust and economically viable as we all would want it to be.

We've seen such incredible progress over the last several years, but we still have empty storefronts.

We still have empty parking spaces, despite how much people complain about there not being enough parking.

So we still have room to grow in that area.

And for me, it's well, why?

Why do we need a thousand more jobs?

Why do we need another hotel?

It's not just to pack bodies into downtown, it's so that the kids who live across the street in Highland have a city who can afford more police officers, who we can hire more firefighters, we can perform the services services of our city in a in a in a more healthy economic and viable way.

And as my colleague, Mr.

Fulmer is always so good at doing in commenting on how much we have to gain economically with the projects of that you just showed us on the map to have that much more in hospitality tax and accommodations tax in people who are going to lunch downtown and spending money downtown, whether they live downtown or not, all of that is contributing to our budget as a city.

So to me, that's part of looking forward to the future.

And as I I've been, you know, we've all been thinking about this, and there was uh a line on the the last line on the plaque that really sealed the deal for me.

It says hearing the bell and knowing the hour, ironically, because the bell doesn't ring anymore and there's no hands on the clock anyway, um, but no one's come out to protest that and let's have a clock that actually works.

But hearing the bell and knowing the hour will remind citizens of all ages of their heritage as Spartans and of their responsibility for the future and for the character of citizens yet to come.

We can honor the children who gave their allowance.

That is not theft, that is not treason of our city, it is instead holding our responsibility for the future.

And for the children and the citizens who are yet to come, who are yet to be born, who are yet to move to our city, that is the spirit that I believe us as a council need to be holding.

Um I appreciate that folks have a difficult time as so much is changing in the world and things that we've have those memories.

That was an excellent point that memories are not necessarily history.

Um, but I believe that what staff is proposing does honor the original goal of the bicentennial committee, which let's not forget what the revolutionary war was about, which was let's do something new, let's create a new path and a new future for us as a new nation and not hold on to the past because we've known that it's that it's working.

So all that's that's my comment.

I have a question, it's more of a procedural question.

All of the projects that you've shared were part of Project Core, which we voted on two plus years ago.

Do we need to vote to approve a move or a relocation, or would we need to vote to stop it?

What what is the actual action needed from council moving forward?

Well, I think it's in the community interest for there to be a clear action.

core which we voted on two plus years ago do we need to vote to approve a move or a relocation or would we need to vote to stop it what what is the actual action needed from council moving forward well I think it's in the community interest for there to be a a clear action our um our development agreement uh on project core that was uh passed a couple years ago as you mentioned uh contemplates the it's it obligates that we would uh modify that intersection it does not say anything about uh the clock tower explicitly um but we think it's um the right thing to do so it is a recommendation to you all that uh we I think Bob and I would both share the opinion that it that a clear vote to authorize the change whichever whatever form of change that is um appropriate and are you bringing that recommendation tonight or if that's not an agenda item no it is an agenda item it is an agenda and so it's within your prerogative to give us that that direction and vote tonight or uh at a subsequent meeting okay we can definitely give a motion to vote or we can take it for uh information only but I figure we have a few more comments because sir Mr.

Mayor um you know like a lot of things we we deal with as a council we find ourselves at the intersection of the past the present and the future um and and perhaps in this example there's no more visual um you know reminder of that than than this this particular issue um I jotted down some notes as you as you talk I haven't by the way been I hadn't sat through a lecture that long since my days at Walford College and and I appreciate that but I do appreciate the historical perspective and it it does remind me of things my memory's better than the mayor's right I remember a lot of these things um you know it because it is deeply personal.

I mean this is our home this is Spartanburg we love Spartanburg I've loved it my entire life and you know it's where my wife and I chose to raise our family and and you know like the mayor like Roy like Baker like a lot of people in this room our names are on that clock uh plaque and and we take great pride in that we take our children to see it you know and I and I think that that you know that should not I mean that is significant right um it is important because of the deeply personal nature of it um but but I also think about Megan referenced one section of the plaque uh at the very end but but really at the and I've I've used this a lot but but I think in the paragraph above that the plaque says this plaque was made possible by the donations of Spartanburg school children who undertook to buy a piece of the clock for their community such was their peculiarly appropriate since such was peculiarly appropriate since the quality of life of the community remains as always an obligation of the citizens of the future and so the future was every bit as much a part of that effort as was the the past and and I think that was the beauty of what Mayor Stoddard and his committee did was we recognize the past but we celebrated the future when we recognize the future was going to be one that involved change and I think we've seen that with the number of times that the clock is moved.

I mean poor General Morgan I mean he's you know he's got a lifetime membership to Smith Mayflower but but I think that as we look at our downtown um you know it evolves they always evolve and and you know Roy talks about not wanting to be green well I I love Greenville but I don't want to become Greenville.

I want to become the best Spartanburg we can and to me the opportunity to infuse a project like Project Core that has already yielded so many positive benefits and we've only seen one element of it.

We haven't seen a thousand workers downtown yet we haven't seen a thousand or 1500 or more people working downtown and what that means we haven't seen the new hotel built so I think we've got to come to grips with the fact that things change and and so I am very respectful and understand the the the the feelings of those who who don't want to see it moved and and I have because of all the reasons that I've mentioned I've reconciled in my mind that there's going to be some level of change now to me the question remains what does that change look like you know I think your your presentation was very compelling um you know about an exhibit but but I think one of the things about the clock tower as it currently exists is that it is accessible and engaging opportunity to engage 247 and I think that means weekends that means nights that means when folks are downtown eating you know it after after work I mean all of those things are important to it to me personally and so I think we need to consider that um but but I I I do think and I think I want to make sure I understand more clearly because I think we've had some some illustrations of what it could look like but really the the the issue is the is the the needed bump out for the buildable space of the hotel because because what you see in the curve now is not the curve that's currently there the the block will be squared off

change look like you know I think your your presentation was very compelling um you know about an an exhibit but but I think one of the things about the clock tower as it currently exists is that it is accessible and engaging opportunity to engage 247 and I think that means weekends that means nights that means when folks are downtown eating you know it after after work I mean all of those things are important to it to me personally and so I think we need to consider that but but I I do think and I think I want to make sure I understand more clearly because I think we've had some some illustrations of what it could look like but really the the the issue is the is the the needed bump out for the buildable space of the hotel because because what you see in the curve now is not the curve that's currently there the those the block will be squared off so that you can add hundreds of buildable square feet to that lot which then allows much more uh density in that in that lot but also makes it more economically viable and I am I correct in that yeah absolutely we uh we only get one one shot for that um block uh for the next 50 60 years and um it's it's really important that it be the the the full rectangle for several reasons that are that are recognized around the world as city building priorities that is uh coherent lines corners retail and restaurant frontages that work that are visible from the street and and that type of thing um so that's that the building frontage line is may seem inconsequential to some but we think from an architectural uh and engineering perspective and city building perspective it's very very important because what I I what I'm concerned about is if you leave the tower where it currently is and you build that scale of building it's gonna look jammed in and it's gonna look crowded and and so you know I think about you know we talked about when it was moved in 1989 I mean I know that you're you're correct in my opinion that that you know the the mall concept was a defensive posture we're we're playing offense with a with a speedy running back and and so you know as we look at this um you know I I mean and also when it was moved in 89 I believe it coincided with the development of the block where the now Denny's tower sits um and so that was changed that was progress and and you know that was moving the ball forward and so you know I think we have to we have to accept that what I would prefer would be that we find you know some suitable location in our downtown where we can relocate that clock and make sure that it's a site of prominence where people can access it as they've been accessing it because I think in many ways that's as much a part of the history of the clock as the clock itself is is how it's evolved and how it's moved and I think you can celebrate all of the things that you're talking about as it relates to the clock and its original orange origins in the in the in in that in the seat of government but I but I think we've we've got to find a way to um you know keep the clock as an integral part of our downtown but I think we also have to come to grips with the fact that I it it may be time to move it because of the opportunity that we have in front of ourselves and I think we would be doing a disservice to our children if we didn't take advantage of that opportunity.

The I wanted to I wanted to just add one point of clarification on that that your comments reminded me of and that is to consider if we attempted to square off the block uh as envisioned but leave the tower where it is what would be the impact well it's important to understand that the the hotel and that full block redevelopment is taller than the than the clock tower um and so now when the clock tower is surrounded by 6500 square foot area of green space and lawn it has a sense of proportion to it.

If it's a short distance uh away from a taller building uh it will it will be significantly uh it will have a very different feel and character and a very different sight line and I'll note Chris I think uh with one of the statements that we had received I think there was a discussion or an option or suggestion of a few of um you know basically shaving down that island but you know to your point about being having the opportunity and having something accessible you know with with traffic running through that that is that's one of the reasons why I would not be in favor of of something like that but still folks having the ability to access that wherever that clock may be that'd probably be the one that I'd go to because I just like it more it's more aesthetically pleasing.

It's more aesthetically pleasing in my opinion.

And to go um but and to your point though, Chris.

I hadn't thought about this, but but even if it was left as is it's gonna be overshadowed by buildings, and so the visuals that we've come to to know and love around you know, looking westward with the sunset, those visuals won't exist anymore because they'll be blocked by buildings.

Um I think I think that's an even you know even more of a of a factor to consider as we think about you know, let's let's embrace this opportunity and let's find a great new place for it and and let that represent the next wave of of positive momentum in our city.

Good.

As we uh continue this conversation, and as you know, the audience can can hear as well, just the the complexity of uh of the decision, and uh again thank you, Chris, for bringing it um to us, the history piece as well as the audience.

But as I look and hear the council speaking, I do think um we would uh at this time recommend a motion.

If we can are we may I would I would ask that that you know we we get more clarity on what it's a two-part process, right?

The the the piece with the clock and the display, I definitely uh agree 100 that it needs to be displayed 24-7.

Uh and I hear Mayor Pro Tim and your second piece was Jamie.

Well, no, I I guess I guess my question is you know, there's the consideration of the fact that it needs to be moved, right?

But but the second part of that, which I think is an important piece, is where or how we're gonna move it.

Are we gonna move it as recommended by staff, or are we gonna recommend uh move it as suggested by some of us up here as it relates to um you know finding a new home for it?

And I think we need some clarity on that before we can make a full throated exercise of our vote.

But that's that's my personal opinion.

Chris, as far as timeline, I I know folks are wanting to break ground and move forward on projects.

Um the most urgent piece I believe would be deciding what to do with the current structure.

Um what's your recommendation?

I mean, as far as the timeline of those projects tonight in two weeks.

Well, I think what we've what we're um what we've heard advanced is it's really three different outcomes.

I would say one is the recommendation I've made to you all involved in the you know, converting the the inner parts into displays, and each of these three probably has some variables within it.

But uh the um the the recommendation I've uh I have made to you all is one option.

The second option would be um to uhise uh uh other locations and get you a definitive recommendation on another location that the tower could be moved to.

We believe that given its age, we'd be dealing with some combination of moving and reconstructing uh to actually the bulk of it can be moved, we believe, but there's gonna be need to be some some reconstruction involved, so that's part of it.

What's that?

It doesn't work.

Well, that's true.

I mean, there's there's uh some of that.

Um and then the third uh would be if if council simply directed that it that it must stay where it is, um, and uh we'd have to deal with the specific ramifications of of that on the other projects and other things.

So those are the three pathways.

If uh if any of them were eliminated tonight, that'd make the world simpler.

But they don't have to be.

Well, we do have uh we do have to move within the next uh um couple of meetings um in some direction or another uh to fulfill our contractual obligations about redoing that intersection, um you know, in a timely manner, but uh we'll if it was council's will to take one of those three options off the table or to select one of them tonight, I could round out uh the the details um in the next couple of weeks, or we could revisit the matter in a couple weeks.

I saw it as a revisit.

our contractual obligations about redoing that intersection um you know in a timely manner but uh we'll if it was council's will to take one of those three options off the table or to select one of them tonight I could round out uh the the details um in the next couple of weeks or we could revisit the matter in a couple weeks I saw it's revisit um three would it I I mean one of the three off would it make sense to vote on one element of that tonight and then revisit for future meetings I think if that's if council would like to certainly we can we can deal with that can we take one of the three off to table my my personal opinion is that it's hard to take the option off the table definitively if we don't have a clear sense of what the next step is going with the other job but I also understand the the the timing and the need to move forward so I mean I I don't know that it's appropriate to take a vote but but I've expressed my sentiment very clearly I mean I I I think that the and maybe my colleagues agree or don't agree but but I've come to grips with the need to move it and and so now the the question is what comes next I don't know how you layer that into a vote that gives you any level of of path forward or or direction or surety but but I don't think I would be comfortable taking a vote to say we're simply going to move it with no with no path to step two okay I I agree with that you know if we were to to vote to to move it I I'm on the same page as you are um to move it my worry would be that it would be moved with no option of how we do that is it relocate it to another location or is it you know break it down and salvage you know the pieces that you recommended my first preference is to find another location for it um I'm not getting the sense from anyone up here that we want to leave it as is so we could make a motion to vote to move it and recommend staff come back at the next meeting with recommendations on what that relocation whether that's a move or in the current place that would essentially be two votes I will be missing the next council meeting you two um you two okay so we probably don't want to take a vote I'll be in New Orleans for a work conference unfortunately Jamie's not in favor of moving without a location I don't want to speak for you I'm just I just want to understand for myself that I don't want to speak for I mean my vote would if if the vote was to vote simply to move it now I would vote no okay so if staff were to come back in two weeks with recommendations on location of a relocation and then in two more weeks take a vote is that timeline enough for you I don't think we would want to take a vote on something with three council members four four.

Yeah four who they are depends on who they are I don't want to not be you had to fly in and fly back out Chris I'm I'm I'm I'm hearing that we're just gonna take this for information um tonight and we will follow up and give you more directions in the coming days.

Yes sir thank you thank you item nine we have staff updates uh Mr.

Mayor just a couple of uh items to highlight that may be of um community interest um city staff has allocated eight hundred and sixty one thousand dollars from the South Carolina State Housing Finance and Development Authority to assist homeowners with disaster recovery most of that's been in the form of uh roof repairs and uh tree removal and things like that for uh Hurricane Helene damaged homes uh we've assisted to date 32 households um and with costs uh ranging from as little as eight hundred dollars of work to to more much more significant um I wanted to highlight that program tonight because uh those funds are not exhausted um and so if there are residents uh of the community who uh who have um uh damage to their properties associated with that uh uh with Hurricane Helene that still haven't been able to be repaired and work through with FEMA or insurance issues that there is an additional resource um and they should contact our neighborhood services team um to to learn more about that Chris do I'm sorry I might have missed the first part do they have to be be a certain age or within a certain percentage of area median income there are program requirements but we encourage folks to contact us so we you know figure out a way to see if we can figure out a way for them do the funds also include does it have to be damaged to their structure or can it also include tree

Chris, I'm sorry I might have missed the first part.

Do they have to be a certain age or within a certain percentage of area median income?

There are program requirements, but we encourage folks to contact us so we can you know figure out a way to see if we can figure out a way for them to do the funds also include does it have to be damaged to their structure or can it also include tree removals?

It can include damaged tree uh removal, doesn't have to be on the house.

That's been the most common type of situation, but doesn't have to be.

Okay.

Um but you uh Martin is excuse me, Chris.

Also they don't have to be homeowners per se but renters.

That's that's correct.

And if there are any uh you know the the advice we're giving is to is to is folks who have unaddressed needs, regardless of their circumstance, reach out to neighborhood services and they'll see if they can find a way to connect.

Um I'm not clear about the the rental piece.

Well, it depends on the nature of the the owner's circumstance, but we would be grateful if the renter would let us know.

So go through the actual company.

But it would have Chris, but the tree must go through the owner of the home of the sometimes there's distant landlords and imperfect information flow, so we just are distant rather than just absent.

Okay, but the tree must be damaged.

Yeah, there are or pose a threat of in some kind.

So okay, but no removal of trees that are healthy.

That that's correct, as long as there's not threatening any I mean it could be too close to the house, I mean good.

Mr.

Mayor, the other the other update I want to make is we continue to work with various community partners on uh downtown operations um in advance of some of these these changes and make some improvements with our business engagement and communication there.

So that that works advancing well.

Um and uh if you have any additional questions, I'll be happy to answer them, but I'll be happy to sit down.

All right, thank you, Chris.

We appreciate that.

Item 10, we have city council update.

Councilwoman Smith.

Not much at all for me.

Um thank you all for being here.

Thank you to the comments about the hate crimes ordinance, um, the city of Irmo is another most recent one just in the last couple of weeks, and I continue to work with my colleagues in discussing that.

Um and Daniel Morgan has not been moved as many times as you think.

Thank you.

Councilwoman Lodajones.

Okay, thank you, Mayor.

Right before I came here tonight, but I got word that the groundbreaking is going to be for a new employee child care center at Mary H.

Wright, and that is going to take place on September the 4th, and I am grateful to um Russell Booker and Sam and his crew, which includes you.

So I am grateful to you all for that, and that would take place on um the 4th of September.

And I want to congratulate Mrs.

Reeder, Willa Reader has been in the school system for 51 years, and she is just doing wonderful.

I am so grateful to her because a lot of teachers that think that once they are there, you've got for 20 or 30 years where they are going to retire and move on.

And just to think that she has devoted 51 years of her life to teaching these young people, and she is still at it, and I am so grateful to her because she's also at the Y every morning that I go there, so she's very active on that too.

And um on the 22nd of this month, last week, I attended a re-entry coalition meeting for people who have been into prison and they are coming out, and they are looking for a new way of getting back into society.

And a lot of the people that who made one simple mistake and they have this record, and now they are trying to get back in society, and they do not have the proper IDs and things like that.

You know, got to get them back in.

And I know that a lot of these people are not looking for a handout, but they are looking for a handout.

But we sometimes, you know, when we know somebody have been in jail, we frown upon them.

But we need to be very, very careful about that because it could be a family member of yours one day.

So give them a hand up when you can and not a hand out, and don't look down on them.

You know, if you know that they are trying.

Um I think that's it, Mayor.

Okay.

Okay.

Thank you, thank you.

Councilwoman Sally.

I too would like to thank each and every one of you who made comments tonight, including from the siren to the clock tower.

I know each and every one of the items that was spoken on is important.

And as we go forward, let's free that we can all come together in unison to find an answer.

Um I want to say I attended the uh I guess you could say the the first class, the second, well, not first class, but I went to the Citizen Academy uh class leadership class uh last week, and I'm proud of the citizens who's taking uh the opportunity to learn about Spartanburg.

Um I'm hoping that once they go through the program that they will become very active in being being a citizen of Spartanburg and doing their part as a volunteer.

Also, I had the opportunity to share in the launching of aiming goal campaign for the Bethlehem Center.

Um it was a very exciting event, and I'm hoping that people can partner that corporations and other uh entities can partner with them to make this a successful campaign and an actual uh reality for the Bethlehem Center to renew itself for the citizens of Highland.

And that's it.

Councilman Former.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Um, first of all, I'd like to uh send uh condolences to the to the family of Captain Steve Henderson who who passed away since our last meeting into the Spark Mark County Sheriff's Office.

Um obviously thinking about all of them, and then as far as tonight, thank you everybody for being here.

Uh it's always good to see a packed house of interested citizens, and and you know, I I think we all share a common um belief that that you know we're of different perspectives on a lot of issues, but we all have the same uh the same shared goal of doing what's best for Spartanburg.

And I know that a lot of people in this audience have that same shared goal despite differences in how we get there, and and I think it's uh it's a great example of a positive civil discourse when we can come together and and discuss ideas, uh debate positions, but but do so without you know impugning somebody else's motives or maligning their intent, and and I think we should always remember that even more so in today's environment, and particularly as we think about issues that are of uh great importance to the citizens of our our our community both today and tomorrow.

And and lastly, um before the meeting started, uh Megan asked me about uh taking my second child off to college.

He's a freshman at South Carolina and he's uh so far enjoying it.

I think he's attended all of his classes.

Um but we uh we also this weekend moved our second child back to to college.

He's a senior rising senior at Walford, and I think we should not lose sight of the fact that uh you know, I spent a lot of time over there and and you know, downtown this weekend seeing you know, friends whose children go to Wafford and parents of other students that are now friends with my son, and um, you know, the the common thread just you know resonates very loudly.

Man, y'all are doing something great in Spartanburg.

What are y'all doing in Spartanburg?

We love coming to Spartanburg.

We love coming back to see our our sons and daughters at Wafford or any other college.

This is an incredible place.

You should take great pride in in what you're accomplishing here.

Uh, and so I think we ought to always remember that, even as we're you're we're navigating pain points.

We should all take great pride in the fact that that we're doing some great things in Spartanburg.

Awesome, thank you.

Mayor Pro Tim.

Mr.

Mayor, um, just want to echo those same sentiments.

Yesterday, my phone was blowing up with moving pictures from my gal pals and one of my dear friends from college whose daughter is a freshman at Wafford this year, and it's just kind of mind blowing to think that.

A I am this old now, where I have friends who's, you know, firstborns are starting and you know, freshmen in college.

Um, but I do want to thank everyone for being here and sharing your thoughts and on the clock tower and engaging and keeping it peaceful.

Um, I think we all want what's best, and everyone has different opinions on how we might get there, and I'm hopeful that we can find a compromise that everyone is happy with.

Um, to echo your sentiments.

Uh I spoke to a friend of mine who um Megan, who um down in Orangeburg, they recently passed their um hate ordinance as well, and um he sent me a copy um over the weekend.

So I think with conversations with Siren and some of the past um ordinances that have been passed um in some of the other communities, we can come up with our own language and and move forward and and um agree to what we've said that we would do.

So I want to continue those conversations.

Uh look forward to seeing all the college students here and hanging out, and it was kind of a you know, it's weird when they're not here during the summertime because you do kind of see a lull in downtown, but now things are starting to ramp back up, so um, you know, which is actually super helpful to our downtown businesses.

So continue to support local when you can.

And I also want to thank the police department.

Um we had a very engaging um community meeting in the north side um last week with um concerns that the neighborhood had, and we had a lot of folks show up and ask questions and share their concerns, and we'll continue to um have conversations and come up with solutions that um make our neighborhoods safer.

So thank you guys for doing that.

Thank you.

Councilwoman Little John forgot one thing.

I forgot one thing.

Listen, our last Thursday, I know that the city was doing something in the neighborhood that I represent.

I got calls from several of my constituents, and they were asking me the reason why I was not there.

I was not informed of it.

In fact, I called a few people, uh, and representative back there, you know, Dr.

Price because she was anyway.

You know, I called them to see, you know, whether they knew anything about it.

Because nobody knew anything about it.

And I kind of got the route of something that I knew nothing about.

So I am encouraging the city if there's something taking place in a neighborhood that I represent.

Please let me know.

Because I'm the one that catch it if I do not show up.

You're fine.

You do a lot for the channel.

Yes, so please let me know.

Okay.

And I actually called you, but I know you're the one that called me and asked me the reason I wasn't there.

Uh, to that, to you all, I want to say thank you again for coming to the uh meeting tonight uh and and showing your interest in whatever may be on the agenda that you're so passionate about.

Um college students moving in, Shay and I actually took a walk uh Saturday just around town and actually walked through the uh Walford's campus, but uh back of the college, just looking at some potential routes, and we noticed all the college students coming back into town and later that evening as we were driving home again, more activity just coming through.

I also um am so uh happy about the uh baseball team being here and what they continue to do for this community on this past Sunday, yesterday, they actually did a uh uh replica game between the old Negro leagues when you had the uh Spartanburg sluggers and Spartanburg and the Greenville Black Spinners.

Uh each team represented their uh, of course, particular team, and uh the sluggers won.

So if you caught that Spartanburg won.

But to say all that, uh my wife is in the back, and I think of her father that has been here through all of these changes.

He was actually an original Spartanburg slugger and uh played baseball for the old Negro League, and he was there signing autographs, and it was just so so cool, really, to see the kids, you know, running up to him, not really knowing, but just interested in what we have in Spartanburg and where we move from, that we had a team that didn't play one another once upon a time, but change.

And now we remember those days.

We always gonna remember the past, but we have to look forward to the future.

Have to look forward.

And there's changes, uh changes change.

But again, Archie means if you want to talk to Archie, go by the barbershop, he'll tell you everything about the sluggers and Satchel Page and Hank Aaron and all those in between.

But he will tell you that his first pitch was farther than mine, which it wasn't.

But anyway.

I entertained we need to take much, Mr.

Mayor.

I'll make a merchant second.

Second.

All in favor.

Thank you.

And representative Henderson Myers, good to see you tonight.

I'm sorry.

I was getting ready to say something, but if I had said something.