To order roll call, please.

Joust.

Here.

Kim.

Naker.

Yang.

Here.

Bowie.

Here.

Coleman.

Here.

Chair Johnson.

Here.

Five present two absent being council members Naker and Kim, and they are both excused.

Thank you to everyone who's came to join us today at our council meeting.

We'll invite you to join us for the Pledge of Allegiance and stand agree.

And to the Republic.

Consent agenda items six through twenty-five are before you for your consideration.

It is my understanding that we're pulling items ten, thirteen, and twenty-four from the consent agenda.

Is there anything else that needs to be taken separate from consent?

Seeing none, I'll take a motion from Miss Jose to approve the entire consent agenda.

All those in favor?

Aye.

Aye.

All opposed.

Five in favor, no one opposed.

The consent agenda is adopted as amended.

Item ten is resolution twenty-five-fifteen forty-five.

Approving the proposed issuance of conduit revenue bonds by the Housing and Redevelopment Authority for the Twin Cities German Emergency School Project.

But are there any other dis uh discussions or any comments?

Uh Councilmember Yang.

Thanks, Chair Johnson.

I will be brief and just reiterate reiterating my thoughts from our HRE board.

I am opposed, I have been opposed to a conduit revenue bonds for both charter schools and private schools, really, because of the negative fiscal impacts it has on our school districts and uh see Paul the St.

Paul uh public schools to be specific, and so I will not be supporting both this item and 13.

Uh thank you, Councilmember Yang.

Any other discussion?

All right, seeing none, I'll take a motion from uh Councilmember Bowie to approve.

All those in favor.

Aye.

All opposed.

No.

Four in favor, one opposed being Councilmember Yang.

The resolution is adopted.

Item 13 is resolution 25-1556, approving the proposed issuance of conduit charter school lease revenue notes by the Port Authority for the Metro Deaf School Project located at 1125 Energy Park Drive.

Likewise, we had uh both the staff report, the public hearing as well so as the approval that came to the housing and redevelopment authority.

We uh this item here is in front of us.

Is there any additional discussion for this?

I will just simply share the importance that I think about continuing to invest in our community, especially whenever there's some sort of improvements that are for accessibility reasons.

Um with that, I will take a motion from Ms.

Coleman to approve.

All in favor.

Aye.

All opposed.

No.

Four in favor, one opposed, being council member ying.

The resolution is adopted.

Item 24 is resolution 25-1598, authorizing the city's rank list of 2026 state general obligation bonding requests for submittal to Minnesota Management and budget.

This is an item that we pulled simply to move a version two.

Um, the original version did not carry some of the numbers for it.

Council members have all been briefed on this as well, but I wanted to make sure if there's any discussion before doing so or questions.

Okay.

Seeing none, I'll take a motion from Miss Yang to move version two and approve.

All in favor.

Aye, aye.

Opposed.

Five in favor, no one opposed.

The resolution is adopted as amended.

All right.

Um suspension.

Yes, it's my understanding that we have a suspension item that is brought to us because we have to have an action by Friday of this week.

So this is coming in from the city attorney's office.

I'll take a motion from Ms.

Jose to suspend the rules.

All in favor.

Aye.

All opposed.

Five in favor, no one opposed.

The rules are suspended.

Resolution 25-1650, appointing the public rights project as special counsel for the purpose of providing legal representation to the city of St.

Paul in the matter of City of Boston et al.

versus Department of Homeland Security et al.

to be filed in the district of Massachusetts.

Alrighty.

We received an email about this, but I know that Attorney Sullivan is in the room for any questions.

Are there any discussions from council members or additional things that need to be clarified before we move approval?

Councilmember Bowie.

I want to just um make a note.

I had uh a chance to talk with um my staff, particularly, and also um reviewing the uh memo from city attorney, um, particularly that this is pro bono, that um there is no cost that this is um uh that the city is responsible for.

So I think that's also good to highlight as we're um joining this lawsuit that this is not going to, you know, um be a uh financial responsibility that the city's taking up.

Thank you for that note, uh, Councilmember Boolean.

Yes, that is correct.

I think, especially at this time, um, you know, we should be doing everything that we can to protect our federal dollars that are going towards public safety, towards our police department, our fire department.

Um, really not to succumb to any tactics that would um put cities at a disadvantage.

So sincerely appreciate that, and it's even better when it's um being able to be done on uh pro bono to the city.

And uh with that, uh uh council member Bowie.

If I can accept that as a motion to approve.

Accept.

All right.

Motion made by Councilmember Bowie to approve.

All those in favor.

Aye.

Aye, aye.

All opposed.

Five in favor, no in opposed.

The resolution is adopted.

Item 26 is first reading of ordinance 25-59, amending chapters 60, 63, 65, 66, 67, and 69 of the legislative code as recommended in the traditional neighborhood district zoning study.

All right, so this is the ordinance portion of the agenda, and it's in the spirit of the council president who often explains to the community about that.

We'll just share that for those that are here today.

Each of these ordinances go through a three-step process on three separate meetings, having a staff report, a public hearing, and then a final vote.

So before us today are two ordinances as what that would go for their first reading, and that will include a staff report.

So for this item, uh, we have our staff here ready to provide a report.

So, welcome uh senior city planner Spencer Miller Johnson.

Thank you, Chair.

Great introduction.

Council members chair Johnson, thanks for having me today.

Really excited to be at this point where we're talking about the traditional neighborhood district zoning study with you all.

I'm just gonna give a staff report on this item.

Some of it might be review because of briefings and other meetings we've had on this, but I'll go through some high-level information and then um provide some information from the planning commission.

So uh really, we last talked about it in June when I gave a staff report to the HRA, and during that presentation, we went through some cartoons who are particularly excited about the zoning study and what this could offer them.

So I'll briefly summarize um how this could all benefit them again, and then go through um, like I said, the planning commission public hearing and recommendation.

So, just as a refresher, the T districts are essentially St.

Paul's mixed-use zoning districts.

They were last updated in 2011.

So they're just in need of some attention given the policy direction and the 2040 comprehensive plan and all the experience that staff has had processing applications over the last couple decades.

So the purpose of the zoning study is really to implement the comprehensive plan and to modernize the 20-year-old standards.

The comprehensive plan supports zoning districts that provide for active pedestrian-friendly development with a mix of land uses that support transit.

There's also support for multifamily housing, especially affordable housing in proximity to transit and employment.

And the T districts are a great tool to implement this policy because they're currently zoned along transit corridors and neighborhood nodes throughout the city.

So that's what's shown in orange here on the map.

We see large pockets of T zoning along University and Snelling over in Highland Village, and then up and down corridors like West 7th, Rice, Arcade, among others.

And when we receive rezoning requests, we're oftentimes reviewing applications that request a zoning change to a T district.

So they're only becoming more popular throughout the city.

Now the scope for the zoning study includes text amendments to the code.

And the recommended amendments coming out of planning commission make the following six big changes.

So they clarify the purpose and intent of each T district to better distinguish them from one another.

They increase development flexibility at nodes and along corridors.

We're particularly talking about an increase of 10 feet in the height limit in T2 and T3, and more streamlined building intensity regulations.

They add neighborhood scaled land use flexibility, so they make it easier to have uses like coffee shops and small-scale neighborhoods serving mixed uses.

They incentivize affordable housing, and that's through a density bonus incentive.

They streamlined design standards by making them objective and measurable.

And overall, they improve code language because of course that's something we like to do when we can.

Now, circling back to our cartoons here, these text amendments have the potential to provide a range of benefits.

So for Archie Artist, it means that new studio and housing spaces can be available along transit routes, giving her more housing options around the city.

For developer Dan, it means that the design and review process is more efficient with fewer approvals required by the planning commission by the city council.

It also means that there's more potential for him to build affordable housing within his projects because of the affordable housing density bonus.

And for Jamie Jr., it means that they feel safer walking down the street to a new corner store that's opening up nearby because buildings are built near the sidewalk and are human-scaled rather than prioritizing vehicles in vehicular access.

So the planning commission held the public hearing on these amendments on July 11th.

That was after an eight-week public review period that opened May 16th.

During that review period, we received 51 testimonies.

46 were provided in writing, and five were provided verbally at the hearing.

The big three themes that were prevalent throughout those comments were first of all support for the zoning study, which was great.

There was interest in rezoning more land to T, and then there was interest in combining T1 and T2.

So in terms of rezoning more land to T, proactive city initiated rezonings weren't included in the approved scope of work for the zoning study.

We had only approved text amendments.

So once this text amendment process concludes, we are looking to bring a scope of work that does include the consideration of rezonings along transit corridors to you all.

So stay tuned for that.

Related to the interest in combining T1 and T2, these comments were really well intended, and they derive from an interest in streamlining the code, which is something that we'd definitely love to do.

But we think that the proposed text amendments will actually make T1 a much more useful zoning district going forward.

T1's overly restrictive and it's underutilized today.

So by opening up some land use flexibility and adjusting some of the standards, we think that T1 will be better positioned to actually provide small-scale mixed-use potential within urban neighborhoods.

And if we were to combine the two districts, T1 and T2, then we'd be missing out on that opportunity for small-scale mixed use.

And then in addition to these like general comments that we received, there were several other more detailed comments that we considered and discussed with the comprehensive and neighborhood planning committee.

And from all that, we proposed a few very minor changes, which the planning commission supported and recommended for approval to you all.

Now, quick to conclude here, I'll just remind you all that the zoning study has been in the works off and on since 2022.

Over the spring and summer of this year, we conducted additional outreach with district councils and to the BRC.

And we met with the Comprehensive and Neighborhood Planning Committee and the Planning Commission several times.

Then on September 5th, the planning commission voted to recommend approval to you all.

And the city council public hearing was noticed for November 5th.

So we actually have a few weeks if there are any questions or you'd like to review this further.

But with that, that's really all I've got.

I'm available for any questions now.

For your time.

Thank you, Mr.

Miller Johnson.

I sincerely appreciate just kind of getting the run through, especially of the brief last three and a half years of work that has went into this, and I'm sure that it has been both an exciting and I think a big undertaking for the team.

So thank you for being able to walk us through that.

Are there any questions right now for our staff?

Otherwise, we're really excited to see this come back to the council when I'm looking forward to the public hearing and some of the pieces to address this.

In part because I think the appetite has been to just continue to see more and further investment in our ways to make sure that we're utilizing and developing here in St.

Paul.

So appreciate it.

Sure.

Thank you.

The ordinance is laid over to October 22nd for second reading public hearing.

November 5th.

I'm sorry.

Can I just say the public hearings November 5th?

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't I didn't catch that.

Sorry, we just wanted to get clarification.

When did you expect to have the public hearing?

The public hearing was noticed for November 5th.

Okay.

Um, just because of the 30-day notice requirement.

Okay, okay.

That's not your usual routine.

You should probably vote on that.

We'll take a motion for that.

Yes, thank you.

Um so I'll take a motion from Miss Coleman to late us matter over for a public hearing to November 5th.

So that'll be only over of a week two weeks.

All those in favor.

Or three weeks, including the fifth Wednesday, yes.

All those in favor?

Aye.

Aye.

Aye.

All opposed.

Five in favor, no one opposed.

The ordinance is laid over to November 5th for second reading public hearing.

Item 27 is first reading of ordinance 25-61, amending chapter 74 of the legislative code by enacting a new section designating the Theodore Ham Brewing Company Heritage Preservation District as a heritage preservation site.

Okay.

I uh also will bring this forward and know that this is an item that has been in the works for a long time.

So in the spirit of that, I'll welcome I believe Miss Franchett is going to be first to give an overview of this item, but we have a staff report from Miss Franchett, and then following up by uh Miss Bulware.

Good afternoon, Chair Johnson and members of the council.

My name is Marie Franchette, and I'm with the St.

Paul Department of Planning and Economic Development, and I'm gonna talk to you, give you a brief introduction to the Hams Brewery Project.

It the redevelopment project includes the East End Complex and the West End Complex.

So the East End Um apartment building is gonna include 110 affordable units that are sized from one to three bedrooms with affordability ranging from 30 to 60 percent AMI with an average of 60 percent AMI.

Uh the West End Artist Lofts uh historic reuse building will create 86 affordable housing units, um, and they're gonna be affordable from 30 to 70 percent AMI with an average of 60 percent AMI, and the units are gonna be affordable for 50 years.

Um, and the redevelopment is gonna include some site improvements, it'll provide uh open public space and a link from the Vento Trail to the Hams project, and we anticipate construction is gonna start in 2027.

That's in part contingent on MHFA uh award funding award decision in December.

And then the what the east um the actually the West End complex, sorry, the title is wrong there.

It has a new commercial marketplace, and it's gonna have 30,000 square feet with 30 to 50 small vendor spaces and one to three acre or one to three uh anchor tenants, and that's gonna create opportunities for local entrepreneurs.

And I just wanted to mention that um the historic designation is really critical in terms of the financing for the this project, and it's going to leverage uh approximately 28 million dollars in state and federal historic tax credits.

That's what I'll turn it over to Council President, Council members.

I'm Christine Buller, I'm heritage preservation staff in PED, and I will continue here.

So uh following from what Marie was talking about, part of redeveloping this site includes rehabilitation of the historic Hams Brewery buildings on the western end of the campus.

And in doing so, uh, the designation through here, we are looking at locally designating with the intention to certify it for the National Register of Historic Places that would open up the opportunity for um rehabilitation act.

Um excuse me, uh utilizing 20% federal and 20% local uh tax credit.

Rehabilitation tax credits.

So locally designating it and certifying it is something that the city has done before with other uh projects like the Jacob Schmidt Brewing Company and the University Raymond.

In this case, um we received a nomination for local designation for the site in April.

The Heritage Preservation Commission reviewed the application and agreed that there were three criteria, uh local criteria that it met, and they forward it to the planning commission who reviewed it in September, also recommending to council approval.

And we received a letter from the State Historic Preservation Office on Monday saying that it is a good candidate for designation.

They also recommended a boundary change.

So you've received amendments that show an updated map and an updated um district description that would cut out the Hope Academy.

And it updates the district boundaries and also shows all of the contributing and non-contributing buildings.

So that map should be part of your packet.

There's a little bit of a background there that I just talked about.

And this is that map that I was mentioning.

So if there's any questions, I'm happy to answer.

Thank you, Miss Uh Bull Boyer and uh Miss Franchette.

I I'm sorry to bring it back up, but I just wanted to have a quick question and for clarification as well.

Um, you mentioned the 28 million dollars that could be leveraged in credit in this regard for this site.

Could you uh say a couple more things about just the overall like process one?

If what is it, you know, when I'm looking at the historic designation piece, like how can that how can that be 28 million?

Can you talk a little bit about the financial piece of the historic designation can't here?

Yeah, um, well, as Christine said, the state credit is 20% of the eligible rehab costs for the project, and then the federal is 20%.

The same thing.

Um, actually, they generate when you calculate they generate the state is gonna credits would be about 15 million, and the federal would be about 13 million.

Um the total cost for the West Side Historic Housing Component, which will be generating credits, is 91.8 million, and these historic renovation projects are really expensive generally because of the amount of work that has to be done.

That the tuck porting and the all the brick and the total reconstruction of the new uh mechanicals and HBIC um cleaning out all the uh contamination in the buildings, so you tend to see high construction costs, and that's what and then 20% of that it more or less is what is generated in in credits.

Okay, and then Miss Bulboard, could you share a little bit about like what sort of protections go in place for sites that are historically designated?

Um especially surrounding like demolition or other things that would come from a place being on the register.

Must definitely council president council members.

So what local historic designation would do is require that any time there is a city permit required for exterior changes at the property, so that could be signage, uh rehabilitation, new construction, demolition.

It would require heritage preservation review.

Um minor changes typically are administrative reviews by HPC staff.

Um larger changes, such as new construction, demolition, things like that are reviewed and approved by the heritage preservation commission and appealable to city council.

So repair of the masonry, replacement or repair of windows, new mechanicals on the exterior, roofing, um, signage, things like that would all be reviewed.

And the goal is to not freeze the property in time, but actually to help guide change so that it maintains the character of the district and continue to allow the buildings to be viable.

Thank you, Miss Bulboyer.

Are there any questions from council members uh regarding this item?

Okay.

Uh we appreciate just the both the staff reports and pieces from that.

I uh recognize that there's a version two as well, so I will make a motion to move a version two and lead this over for the public hearing next week.

All those in favor, sorry.

I all opposed.

Five in favor, no one opposed.

The amendment is approved and the ordinance is laid over to October 22nd for second reading public hearing.

Item 28 is a public hearing of ordinance 25-58, considering the application of the housing and redevelopment authority to rezone property at 1059 Maryland Avenue from B2 Community Business to T2 traditional neighborhood and amending chapter 60 of the legislative code pertaining to the zoning map.

So this brings us to the public hearing section of our agenda.

And if you're here to testify on an item, when the item is read, it's the time to line up on either side.

And when it's your turn, you can come up to the microphones.

You'll have two minutes to speak.

You don't need to adjust the mics, they will adjust to you.

You um will have two minutes, and honestly, it's not my favorite part of the job.

Uh I will have to interrupt you at that two minute mark to keep the time and to be respectful of folks that may come in after you.

And after your testimony, we ask that you sign your name for the records on either side.

There's a clipboard, and you can sign your name to let us know where you're coming from.

So this is a public hearing on this item.

Is there anyone here to testify?

Looking far and wide, I don't see anyone running to the podium.

So seeing none, I'll take a motion from Miss Bowie to close the public hearing and leave this matter over to next week for final adoption.

All of those in favor.

Aye, all opposed.

I have in favor, no one opposed.

The public hearing is closed, and the ordinance is laid over to October 22nd for final adoption.

Item 29 has been withdrawn.

Legislative hearing consent agenda items 30 through 34 before you for your consideration.

This brings us to the legislative hearing part.

Welcome, Miss Mormon.

Thank you.

Uh, this afternoon I'm aware of one person who's here to testify, and that is for item number 33.

Item 33 is RLH SAO 25-55.

Appeal of Mark Pachala is second to a summary abatement order and vehicle abatement order at 2016 Fremont Avenue.

Public hearing continue to October 15th.

The um in this case, I believe that we'll be talking primarily about the summary abatement order, but since there is a vehicle abatement order as well, I'll cover that quickly.

The in this case there was a trailer on the property parked on an unapproved surface, and uh in order for it to be retained there, uh, there would need to be an approved site plan and appropriate surfacing, and uh the owner was referred to the Department of Safety and Inspections to pursue that if he wishes to keep the trailer.

Uh, with respect to the other order, it's a summary abatement order for uh tall grass and weeds, which I know is just one of everybody's favorite conversations.

It's it's very straightforward.

The city code says not more than eight inches tall.

We have been uh for a handful of years now working with the fact and great idea that a lot of uh people are doing native plantings in their yards, doing pollinator uh lawn and so on, and how do we accommodate that within the code?

Well, state law um there's a great favor that was provided by uh the legislature, and it does describe what uh managed natural plantings would look like.

Well, would be and uh did attach a copy of the uh statute is 412.925 native landscapes, and uh it does distinguish in this case between a turf lawn and that being eight inches, and a natural planting which would manage natural landscape planned intentional maintained planting of net native or non-native grasses, wildflowers, forbes, firms, shrubs, or trees, and uh including rain gardens, metal vegetation, and ornamental plants, but it does also indicate that uh managed landscapes.

Um excuse me, except as a part of a managed landscape as defined in this section.

Any weeds or grasses growing upon a parcel um cannot exceed eight inches, and it does distinguish between um the document is fighting with me here.

I'm sorry.

It does distinguish between an overgrown turf lawn, which would be the grasses that were just described and native plantings.

So in this case, the council would need to make a finding.

Is this a turf lawn that's overgrown, or is this a managed native planting in legislative hearing?

Um this is what I was looking at and dealing with, and uh we did some evaluation of uh excuse me.

That was the 2024 photo that I wanted to show you.

We were dealing exactly with this um problem earlier.

Did my photo get taken?

Now it's there.

There you go.

No, well, okay.

Uh actually, yeah.

So this is 2025.

My apologies, it is the correct one up.

You can see um here what that looks like.

I uh also have photos of what it looked like in the previous year.

And you can see here orders were written on almost an identical situation there.

I think the idea of the owner was to allow the lawn to grow and determine what was a noxious weed and not acceptable and pull them out, but um to create a native planting that way, where I don't think that's um successful in distinguishing between a native planting overall and an upper ground turf lawn.

I'm recommending, as I did last year at this time, that the council deny the appeal and recommending the council give a deadline to October 20th for uh the lawn to be um in compliance with the city code.

All right, thank you.

Thank you, Ms.

Mormon.

This is a public hearing on this item.

If there's anyone here to speak to this item, you can come up between the mics at this time.

Hello, thank you.

You'll receive two minutes, so hello.

I am the homeowner in question.

Um I admit I am in agreement with a lot of things that were brought up, but my the reasoning for my appeal is I'm looking for help with guidance and finding out how to get whatever landscaping is necessary to figure out what qualifies as maintained.

Um the photos you are seeing, I will say are nowhere like the what photos you would find today of what the yard is currently.

Um I had um spoken at my last, I believe, like um phone hearing.

Um told recommendations for what I could do, and I've chopped most of the plants since then, and it's a is a point of grief for me because a lot of plants that I care for that I was planning to have is overwintering for um habitats for pollinators and insects and birds, they're all gone now.

But even now I worry I'm still found as unmaintained, and all I really get is an occasional phone hearing that I pay $20 for to be told still doesn't work.

And I'm just looking for some concise parameters to know how should I be arranging my lawns so that I can foster the ecosystem, but instead I'm killing all the animals that I'm trying to let thrive.

This has proven to be a tremendous financial burden on me.

I am currently 54 days late with my mortgage, still figuring out how to pay because the um these abatement orders, I'm unable to pay for them in the moment, but they get rolled over into the mortgage the next year, and currently I'm paying more than 200 per month than what the mortgage is supposed to be, just because I can't establish enough communication to figure out what passes.

And I apologize that I didn't say this earlier, but could you just simply state your name and where you're coming from for the record?

It's okay.

Uh I am my name is Mark Puhalla, the second.

And I'm sorry, the other part.

And just uh obviously where you're coming from in this case, Fremont Avenue.

This is uh yeah, 2016 Fremont Avenue East, St.

Paul, Minnesota, 55119.

I inherited it from my mother when she died in 2020, and been struggling to learn how homeownership works ever since.

Uh if I may, I have a quick follow-up question for you, Mr.

Pachala.

I'm the council member whose ward this is in.

Um, and so just uh as a follow-up, can you one of the recommendations that's are coming through is the October 20th deadline date.

Do you anticipate that being enough time to get some of the information that you're seeking?

And do you have a do you have an edge from the council?

It can be, but in part, I I admit I'm here wondering if you can point me to what departments to go to.

I I do admit in the last um phone hearing I was recommended to I'm sorry, the Department of Health and not Health and Safety, but um safety and the zoning, the the zoning department.

The department of safety and inspections.

Public safety and inspections, thank you.

When I was recommended to them, I was able to go to them.

They um guided me through how I could set up proper paving stones, explained why the previous paving stones didn't qualify, and I'm currently trying to figure out how I can find paving stones for free on Facebook Marketplace.

I've already arranged with them that when I find them, I'll be digging them into the ground, taking pictures, asking, does this pass?

And that works for me.

But with the tall grass, um on one side, I know that there is an inspector named Anthony Munos.

Um I have gotten to meet with him in person once.

He admitted me that his boss sees my house as sort of a target zone because it's always easy to call it unmaintained, so he just makes the rounds.

I'm I'm told I'm one of three houses.

Um when I have my hearings with um Mrs.

Mormon Moorman, um I get some information, but then I find I'm still held as unmaintained later.

And so I'm making progress, but I just wish that I knew what department can I go to to just sit down with someone and make a plan of this works, this doesn't work.

Okay.

Well, thank you so much for being here, Mr.

Pachala.

I'm gonna I'm gonna get I'm gonna do the public hearing again just to make sure that there's no one else here.

I don't think there will be, but I'm I'll uh I'll be able to touch base after this.

So thank you.

Thank you.

All right, this is a public hearing on this item.

Is there anyone else here to testify?

Okay, seeing none, I'll make a motion to close the public hearing.

All those in favor?

I all opposed.

Five in favor, no one opposed.

Public hearing is closed.

Ms.

Mormon, I have a uh quick question for clarity for you.

Um the date from October 20th.

Was it the this is the deadline then which they would have to be either in compliance or could you just elaborate again on the October 20th date?

Of course.

Um the original orders, and I will try to bring this up so that it's in context.

The original orders to um the vehicle abatement and the summary abatement that we're talking about were issued on September 11th.

I conducted a hearing on September 30th, and I'm recommending a deadline of October 20th.

So the arc of time is basically six weeks between when the orders were originally issued to the compliance date.

Of course, today is October 15th, so that means um Monday.

Okay.

Yeah.

Uh, one of the things I heard from Mr.

Pachala's public testimony was that the pictures presented were potentially different than what the current state is.

Do you have the dates in which those pictures were taken that were shown today?

The ones that are shown today are the ones that were shown in the legislative hearing.

If the property is in compliance now, uh then it's in compliance.

And uh typically I wouldn't go through and identify plants.

That's not really something that I'm an expert in uh to be able to say this is a native planting, this is organized correctly, this is growing over the sidewalk.

These are things that I can't do.

Uh I don't know that the council can or should do this remote either.

I think this is ultimately a conversation with the inspector and specific guidance on how to plant a native landscape would be I'd say better sought from extension services, master gardeners programs and things like that, where there's a whole bunch of training around that um to be able to give some background information.

Uh the the assessment that Mr.

Picala referred to was uh from an abatement that occurred last June when the city uh had um mowed the grass and uh that abatement order wasn't appealed, then we did have an appeal as I indicated in last fall and now today.

Okay, and so the pictures that were taken were dated by what date?

Sorry, in September.

What's that?

What date was the picture taken?

Was it in September?

This picture was taken for excuse me, for the legislative hearing, and it would have been September 30th.

Uh so okay.

Um if this deadline is in place, and just uh clarification, and thank you for thank you, colleagues, for bearing with me as I ask a couple of questions about it.

Um will there be any sort of follow-up around the current state of the property at the before the like before there would be services rendered on the 20th, like if we ordered this to be completed by the 20th, um, how would a person be able to determine whether it's still in the current state that would warrant action or not?

Uh the best way to do that would be to contact an inspector uh in this case Munos or the supervisor Lisa Martin and have them review uh to give uh a determination about whether they would issue a summary abatement or excuse me, a work order for a crew to come take care of that.

Okay.

So the council's job today, what you're undertaking is the deadline, and it gets passed off to the department to enforce the deadline the council establishes.

Okay.

Um thank you, Ms.

Mormon.

And uh again, thank you, Mr.

Patrella, for taking the time to come here as well and and uh give your comments and just overall provide the updates.

I am because I didn't hear necessarily a disagreement with the uh deadline nor the compliance issue here.

I am inclined to move the recommendation of the hearing officer.

Um I would move approval of the recommendation as a I guess as amended.

Is that would that be an amendment?

There is currently there in the resolution.

So I'd make a motion to move the the recommendation then of the hearing officer.

Uh any discussion.

Councilmember Yay.

Thanks, Chair Johnson.

Um, I do have a question for you, Marsha.

I'm wondering if you can just explain to us again in the um what what would the homeowner need to do in order to be compliant?

Because I heard clearly that that to them they want to they want to have um a pollinator plants in their yard and they're looking to get the guidance on what actually is like gonna take for them to be in compliance it would be getting from where they are now, which has been an uh turf lawn that's been allowed to grow to being a native planting that is organized and managed with plants in the categories that are listed in the statute.

Uh right now, as we discussed it in the legislative hearing, instead of doing what other people who've who've appealed to come in front of you and like I plowed up my entire yard and I did this whole planting according to what the manual said about how to do native plantings.

That isn't what's happening in this particular case.

Uh the owner indicated this that was an expensive route to undertake as opposed to um a more piecemeal approach, but the piecemeal approach does not give you a clean boundary and how to get there.

Well, I guess one way would be to plow up the yard and plant.

Um, but I how to get to replacing plants that are turf versus replace, you know, versus planting new that's really a master gardener kind of a question, I would say, for from my perspective.

Not thank you.

Not a hundred percent answer, I apologize.

Thank you.

Um I do think that this is uh definitely a really tough situation, and I'm often thinking about the the different like the homeowners we have come before us with their um interest to to preserve um pollinator plants and have pollinator gardens, and we even had a situation recently where the where um there was an abatement that um and uh the that homeowners, all of their plants basically got um got mowed.

And so I don't want us to end up in a situation like that again.

I do think that this is a really important policy conversation for us to have, and I am uh I do often um get emails from especially the climate justice advocates and my ward who feel strongly about this and have suggested, hey, you know, like what do you think about us doing this and offering suggestions and those are really important for us to to continue talking about?

But um I uh Chair Johnson, I'm I'm willing to support your motion.

I just worry that maybe um I I think it's about a week's time that we're giving the the property owner here.

I'm just not confident that that would be enough time for them to actually be able to get the sort of advice that they need from experts who I think are actually like who who we don't currently have in um in our um within our city staff.

I mean these are this is like a level of expertise that I'm sure many nonprofits out there they actually focus on doing would be able to give advice on, but those are just my concerns that I wanted to share right off the bat.

Is there a time limit at all on this on this item?

Or would we be um like so, for example, with the fifth Wednesday, if we did move uh a layover today to allow more time for that, would we be able to do that in the time frame that we're given?

The council could absolutely do that.

I think one of the privileges that we have this time of year is that ultimately um cutting the plantings, the lawn, whatever label we put on it at this point is something that nature is going to do for us, you know.

So cutting it is not destroying things, it's that next year is a new growth cycle, and so planning could happen along those lines too, both for the council to consider how it wants to move forward with any thing, and also for figuring out over the winter what the spring planting would be.

So it's it is this time of year kind of special.

Okay, Councilmember Bowie.

I see your hand.

Thank you.

Um, and thank you so much, Chair Johnson.

I also wanted to just kind of reiterate what um council member Chair Ying had mentioned, particularly around um just the uncertainty around if that isn't enough time.

Um the appellant have you know already shared that just looking for guidance, filling in limbo, um and seeking direction, uh, particularly around these particular plants.

Um I did have a chance to kind of look at what the the our policy um and I don't know if I'm looking at the correct policy, but chapter 45 with the nuisance abatement um says that grass um should not be um more than eight inches.

Um and I think that that is clear in terms of like the height of the grass, but it doesn't go into detail or provide guidance around how to maintain some of these plants, which I think um like council member Ying had said, maybe that's something we can explore in policy and get some expertise and advice from some nonprofits and um people in like the climate justice and environmental justice uh field.

But I also will be inclined to if we could, and if you are willing, um given that this is in your award um to lay it over you know a little longer, just uh give the appellate um more time to also figure that out.

And I I did have a question too, because um I know this comes up a lot um for these um motions.

Uh are we like what is like are there able to like put conditions particularly with the um recommendations uh to where the inspector, you know, is is I guess like order to provide a list of uh like resources or partners or organizations, um, because I do think that should be a service that our city provides with giving people direction as we're um and plying for them to be in in uh in compliance with our our rules, we should also like give them the the tools or at least uh a reference um to to use.

So I don't I don't know like how we can word that or if that needs to be you know written into the uh resolution, but I do think that's something that will be helpful with giving the appellants clear direction when we do make these votes.

Uh in response, I would say that um if the council is laying the matter over, that will give time for some language to be drafted.

Uh typically the city council does not issue orders for how to execute these responsibilities at the Department of Safety and Inspections, and uh it's more of a conversation about how they would do that.

But the council could definitely put in there its wishes to have these things clarified for a property owner.

So okay.

I'm happy to um I'm happy to I think it's what's the word for removing my motion?

Sorry, it is done.

I'm sorry, what do you I want to remove the motion that I made so I can make another one?

You can just do that.

I'll withdraw the motion then than I um previously made, just kind of based off of the feedback too from council members.

We uh for context, we typically try to, you know, respond to these different uh assessments and in ways that are both like fair to a lot of folks, and so I often don't know if um layovers and things will be supported in this way, and so I'm happy to move for uh layover to November's November's fifth meeting.

But I think one of the things that we're getting at is clearly in the public testimony, there was uh an interest from Mr.

Pachala to learn more about uh what resources and pieces are available to him as someone who has expressed interest in uh both wanting to be in compliance with the city to avoid further assessments, but also to learn more about um about the appropriate way to be uh uh to be able to explore being able to have pollinators on the side, being able to really just do some of the things he's obviously been attempting to do for the last couple of years uh in a way that doesn't warrant having to go through this process.

And so um I would also share that I think it because one of the questions that came up in the public hearing for me is whether or not what's the current state of the property, it'd be really great if DSI is able to get up to get an updated understanding of where we are at currently with this property in site.

If the pictures that they have are no longer what's actually what it looks like, it might be worthwhile to have staff uh or have the inspector revisit the site if possible prior to uh November 5th, just because there's been a lot of things that have been going on, a lot of things lost potentially in uh our system and database.

And so if that is possible, that would be my ask um from DSI staff as a follow-up, and then uh I heard council member Bowie mention a couple of uh a couple of additional pieces around.

There seems to be an appetite for compliance, and I know with the Department of Safety and Inspection, that seems to be our primary goal uh is to work with constituents to get them into compliance, and so if that barriers education, then I would hope that that would be afforded to all constituents, including mine.

So I take uh I'd make a motion to lay it over for two for three weeks to November 5th.

Yes, that would be my motion.

Uh any further discussion.

Okay, all those in favor.

Aye, aye.

Aye.

All opposed.

Five in favor, no one opposed.

The resolution is laid over to November 5th.

Okay, and this uh is a public hearing on the remainder of the legislative hearing uh consent the legislative hearing agenda.

Um if there's anyone here left to speak to the legislative hearing items that are in front of you.

This is your public hearing.

So looking for anyone and seeing no one running, I will uh take a motion from Councilmember Joe to close the public hearing and approve the recommendations of the legislative hearing officer.

All those in favor.

I all opposed.

Five in favor, no one opposed.

The public hearings are closed, and the consent agenda is adopted as amended.

And uh just one quick clarify clarification for the record.

I mentioned earlier that I could follow up with after this winter with the intentions of the item to uh close it this matter since the public hearing has been closed, but the item is still there.

All legislative hearing items are quasi-judicial, which means that our office would not be able to do that.

So just wanted to be clear and clear the record.

We are at the portion of our space where we have to do the where we can choose to do good news, and I think we should.

I have a couple of things that I want to share that's happening in my ward.

Um, and so I want to just give that opportunity to council members as well.

I'll start off by just sharing uh again that we did welcome our uh master's a social work student from Bethel University, Tatiana McCoy to our office.

I'm excited to have her for the fall and spring semesters.

Um this is the first fellow that we've had, but she brings in a ray of experiences, and I'm really excited to welcome it her into the city and into the east side.

Um we have a couple of of our annual meetings that are coming up and a lot of things around our district councils who are working really really hard um, you know, to bring back some of these staples.

One of them, you know, it is October, so it's kind of around Halloween time.

Um if you do Halloween if you dress up, that's great.

I've been trying to get out to get up the energy to do so.

But I mentioned this last week, but we do have Spectacular coming back to the East Side through the Southeast Community Organization from one to four on October 25th.

Um, we also have the annual meeting for Dayton's Bluffs annual meeting, their district council annual meeting that's happening on uh the October 20th from 6 to 8 at the Dayton's Bluff Rec Center, and then there's also at Dayton's Bluff Rec Center, Tot Time Halloween party, which I think is super cute.

So I bring your kiddos.

We don't have a lot of places sometimes where we can bring our kids and have a safe um trick-or-treating experience.

Uh, and so Dayton's Bluff Rec Center is hosting from 10:30 to 12 p.m.

So during the day on Friday, October 17th.

So it's from children uh for children any age up to five.

So it's a really cool experiences and experience, and honestly, it was fun being able to be both at Spook Tacular and then stop by here.

People brought their families and it was the costumes were the next level.

Any other council members have any good news for the wards?

Okay, seeing councilmember Yang and then Councilmember Coleman.

Thanks, Chair Johnson.

There will be a Halloween party and haunted trail happening at the Dilith and Case Recreation Center Thursday, October 23rd.

The party is from 6 to 7, and the trail walk with staff will be 7 to 9 p.m.

It's free, and everybody's welcome.

Amazing.

Thanks, Chair Johnson.

Um, with all of the Halloween parties, I have to say we're doing it a little bit differently in Ward 4.

We have a trash party this weekend.

Um, so I'm excited to join the Halen Midway Coalition and the Union Park District Council for a neighborhood cleanup this weekend.

It's 10 a.m.

to 1 p.m.

If you come, you get um a trash picker upper and you get to keep it, I think.

So um lots of big incentives.

Uh go team all dine, they'll have uh four different sites that are all doing pickup and then a party afterwards at Blackhearts.

So encourage folks to come out and help out.

Thank you, Councilmember Coleman.

I don't know what's more scary.

A ghost costume or a piece of trash pick up on the country.

So any other good news from the ward.

Okay.

Councilmember Bowie.

Thank you.

I was just trying to pull up this last one here.

Um so I uh um Word One's office will be convening a community conversations uh listening session on reparations on Monday, October 20th, um, from 5 to 7 p.m.

at the Frog Town uh community rec center.

So we you know welcome everyone.

Um if you haven't been to a listing session, we also invite you to come out um and have the conversation.

And I'm also looking for there is a we we didn't call it a trash party, and I come up with a fun name for it, but we'll be doing a community cleanup October.

Let's see here, October 18th and the 19th on the intersection of Dell University, and it's between 10 a.m.

to 2 p.m.

So it's uh public works is um inviting uh their their staff to come out, inviting district councils.

So we'll be alongside the university corridor making sure we're beautifying that area.

That's an event by popular demand.

Yes, yes, yes, all right.

Seeing none, but thank you guys for letting me chair my first council meeting.

We are adjourned.