With the Lord.

Safety committees order, roll call, please.

Vice Chair Coleman.

Here.

Johnson.

Joel.

Here.

Kim.

Yang.

Chairboy.

Here.

Six present.

One on their way.

So good morning, everyone.

I just want to say that this is the ninth public safety committee meeting.

I just want to say I appreciate everyone's participation, involvement and engagement, not only in the topics, but just really just ways that St.

Paul and our partners and our county has really been championed public safety.

Let's re-explore what the goals are of this committee because when we think about when this body was created, it was really dedicated to reviewing and developing and recommending, you know, policy, good policy that's informed, not by not only by data, but also by um live experience and our experts.

So we're going to be covering this month, um, gun violence intervention, and we have two partners here.

Excuse me, one partner being from the St.

Paul Police Department, and our other partner, uh, our community organization that we've partnered with before, Mom's Demand Action, the St.

Paul location.

And we're going to be reviewing areas of violence prevention, community first public safety, and how our partnering organizations have been engaging around gun violence intervention.

And we've heard a little bit of that last month with Sasha Cotton and Office of Neighborhood Safety.

So I'm just going to, oh, actually, I'll I'll turn it to Pierre to read into the record our first agenda item.

Item number one, SPPD, non-fatal shooting unit review.

So welcome.

We have Commander Nicole Peterson here, and she's going to be reviewing our non-fatal shooting unit.

Good morning, Council President, Council members.

Thank you very much for having me here.

I really appreciate it.

As we said, my name is Nicole Peterson.

I am a commander with our police department.

And I've been with our department for it's almost 24 years now, which is just crazy to think about.

Currently, I'm assigned to our non-fatal shooting unit.

I oversee that unit.

And actually, I was tasked about two and a half years ago with creating the unit.

So I've been with it through the inception, figuring out what has worked best for our unit and just coming, overcoming any difficulties that we may have had along the way.

So I um because of that, I'm able to give you a little bit of historical information about what the department looked like, how we investigated these crimes prior to the creation of our nonfatal shooting unit.

We started the unit in January 2024, and prior to that, these cases, they're aggravated assault cases where someone is actually struck by a bullet.

These cases were investigated by our homicide robbery unit.

Our homicide robbery unit falls underneath our major crimes division, and all of our units within that major crimes unit our division is really cleverly named.

So homicide robbery, you can probably figure out what they investigate.

Our family violence unit, you can probably figure out non-fatal shooting, you can figure out what we investigate.

The slight difference with homicide robbery is yes, they're investigating homicide cases, they're investigating robberies, but there's a lot more that they're looking at.

They're looking at kidnappings, they're looking at carjackings, any assault case from someone slapping another person all the way up to previously these non-fatal shooting cases.

So they were really tasked with really high priority cases that demanded a lot of attention.

If it was a homicide, these investigators would respond within an hour to begin that investigation.

That wasn't the case with these non-fatal shooting cases.

They would get assigned the cases the next morning, or if it happened on, let's say a Friday, they wouldn't start looking at the case a lot of times until that following Monday.

So there was information that was being lost, witnesses that maybe no longer wanted to be cooperative, same as the actual uh victims, that they no longer wanted to participate in the investigation.

And because of that, uh these investigators had a very heavy workload because of all the cases that they were looking at.

Um, so now why was the non-fatal shooting unit created?

Um, a lot of the factors that I just mentioned, but I'm sure maybe you've heard Chief Henry talk about conversations that he had with our prior mayor Carter about the clearance rate for our homicide unit with regards to homicides, they're usually in the upper 80s 90% clearance rate, and uh just last year they actually cleared 100% of all homicides that happened within St.

Paul.

And um Mayor Carter at the time asked Chief Henry, well, why are you able to do such a great job on clearing, you know, solving these homicide cases, but you're not doing as good of a job on solving the non-fatal shooting cases.

And uh at the same time, um County Attorney Choi was looking at a model in Denver of Denver PD, how they investigated their non-fatal shooting cases because their clearance rate had dramatically approved and improved in recent years.

Um, so we began to investigate Denver's response to these cases and to see if we could apply it to St.

Paul PD.

We also wanted to increase public safety.

Um, obviously, we know that uh, you know, maybe the person that is struck by a bullet is the victim of this crime, but our community members are also victims.

If they're not feeling safe in their homes because gun thoughts, gun fire is ringing out around them, that's that's not an environment that we want for our our city.

And then we believe that it's important to increase community trust by holding shooters accountable.

And we wanted to match or as close to matching our homicide clearance rates to our non-fatal shooting clearance rates.

So we began this partnership with Ramsey County Attorney's Office, and we began, like I said, looking at the Denver model and trying to apply it to St.

Paul PD.

I was able to fly out to Denver PD and actually meet with the investigators that were out there, and it was very doable, the model that they were creating.

We were able to implement their response because what they were doing was responding real time, similar to a homicide investigation.

So when a shooting happened, investigators were coming in within an hour.

Well, that involves overtime.

And so this public safety money that we were granted by the state allowed us to respond real time to these shootings.

So we were granted, sorry, three million dollars over three years, and that three years is actually ending at the end of this year.

So that money is running out at the end of this year.

The unit itself is it's very different than our investigative other investigative units.

We only investigate cases where someone is actually physically struck by a bullet.

And it does, you know, reduce our caseload within the unit, but what that really allows us to do is to dig into these cases and thoroughly investigate each one.

Um we currently have a team of six sergeants and two officers that are assigned to the unit, and these investigators were pulled from other areas within the department, and those those positions were not backfilled.

Oh, Councilman Coleman.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Thank you.

Oh no, I just raised my hand.

Um thank you so much for this presentation.

I'm really glad that we're doing this.

I I do have a couple of questions about the decision to require the victim rather than um investigating cases where there's a near miss or a gun is fired but it doesn't strike somebody.

Is that entirely a resource-based decision?

And do we think that if we had adequate resources and could staff the unit adequately that there would be increased value to public safety and to achieving our other goals if we were to investigate those additional gunshots?

So they are still being investigated.

I don't want you to um to think that they are not being thoroughly investigated.

They are those cases where if someone is uh shooting at another person and they're they're not actually struck by a bullet, those cases are continuing to be investigated by our homicide unit.

Um, to have the type of response that we do is definitely resource-based uh because we don't have the overtime funding or the personnel to you know have someone on call to be able to respond to to those type of um cases, it just wouldn't be possible because of the other demands within the department.

And Commander Um, I have three council members, Kim, Ying, and then uh President Acre.

I just have a fellow um to that great question.

Do you have um how do you do you track the bullets that you collect from those from the homicide cases or from just like you know, shootings that happen in general?

Do you collect the casings?

Does it go somewhere into a data database?

And is that information shared across differing um uh law enforcement jurisdictions?

Yes, absolutely.

Um we do collect the casings.

Uh the any casing that is recovered goes to our um forensic service unit, where uh depending upon the case, we swab for DNA, um and but every casing gets entered into what we call our NIBEN system, and that um NIBAN, what it does is it looks at the casings and then it matches it to other casings from other uh cases that or other um locations where casings have been recovered and other guns to see if they match up, and then that is able to bring correlations with from other agencies throughout the state.

There was a shooting in Minneapolis, and it was the same gun that shot those bullets, those casings, we are able to match that to our case, and then we potentially could have leads from that case.

So yes, all casings are analyzed within our department.

Or excuse me.

Yang, sorry about that.

Thanks, Chair Bowie.

Like those are still being investigated.

I was wondering if you have the clearance rate for those sort of cases at all.

Let me um for the non-fatal shooting cases.

Um not with the ones where um let's say like shots were fired, we there wasn't anybody who was shot though.

I do not have the um clearance rate on those cases, but that's definitely information that we can get to at a later date for sure.

Great, thank you.

Thanks so much, Chair Bowie.

Um, curious about the close to three million dollars over three years, million dollars a year.

You mentioned that these the staff were all pulled from other departments, units within the department not backfilled.

So we're can you line item out for us a little bit what the additional million dollars are going to?

Um, we uh utilizing it, majority of it is for overtime within our unit, but then we also get assistance from our special investigations unit from our gang gun unit.

So we really have a team approach within the major crimes division.

Um we still have, even though we have investigators specifically for these cases, we need assistance.

Like we have execute a search warrant, so it's not just our unit that's utilizing that um that overtime.

It's many investigators within the major crimes division to help us continue these investigations, and then our forensic service unit, too.

We've been calling them in to actually do the crime scene processing, so they've been utilizing the overtime money as well.

Uh we've been utilizing the money for different technological based systems that uh, for example, um cell phone tower information um information for if we have a suspect that's been charged with one of these shootings, the ability to track their location, and then different software databases.

We've utilized it to purchase that, um, and then uh are we had a community engagement person as well, and we've utilized some of the funds for that individual.

Just a quick follow-up.

Thank you, Chair.

So to be clear, is it these 10 folks' job to be doing this investigation, and then the overtime is when they have to come in outside of their ships that's correct?

Correct.

We do the money is not used to pay their salary, it's strictly for the overtime.

Thank you.

And as a follow-up to that, um, I see the next slide here.

You have the breakdown of just the unit, but I would love to see the breakdown of um staffing and also the budget for that uh for not only the overtime but all the other units you mentioned, like the gang unit, the forensic um unit, the cell tower, it'll be interesting to know like which unit actually tracks that and also you mentioned the software database.

So I just want to just note that on record that I would love to have a follow-up in terms of not only just the non fatal unit, non fatal shooting unit, but also all the parties you mentioned.

Just so I can clarify and understand exactly what you're looking for.

You're looking for if let's say our gang gun unit utilized uh overtime money from this grant, how much money was being used for correct is okay, perfect.

Yeah, okay.

I think we're good now, so keep going.

Thank you.

Perfect.

Um, let's see.

Yes.

And um, and I kind of briefly touched on this, but uh our investigators, if there is a shooting within the city where someone is struck by a bullet, um, they are called in and respond within one hour of that shooting.

And what that really allows us to do is um begin the investigative process obviously right away.

So we unfortunately had a shooting within the city last night, and um two of our team members were called in.

They were gathering video from community members.

They were um from businesses, they um were helping to help patrol, identify what evidence they need to further the case along.

They met with the victim, they spoke with the victim.

They are able to build that rapport with that victim right away to show that we care and we want to solve this case.

So that I believe is one of the main reasons why this unit is important is because we are building trust with our victims.

We're increasing community trust.

We're speaking with witnesses and family members right there that night just to show that we are taking this extremely seriously, and we want to solve this, solve what happened to you.

And as it says there, we investigate each case as if it's a homicide.

We've had cases where unfortunately someone was shot, it wasn't initially a homicide, but eventually turned into a homicide.

So we really pride ourselves in doing these investigations from the start exactly as a homicide investigator would.

So that way there's if it ends up getting turned over to our homicide unit, there's just a you know, a very smooth transition to that unit, and there's no um bumps in the road, and and they don't have to backtrack anything that we've done because we've taken care of all those initial steps.

So Commander Nicole, I just have a quick question with the scenario that you gave, and also just um, you know, I appreciate you highlighting yesterday's um incident, um, really tragic.

I'm just really curious to know there's a lot of there's a lot of response and it comes quickly, and I think that's a great thing that our city has.

But can you talk about if someone was shot, most likely they'll be responding, there are the amulets will be responding and taking them to the hospital.

So when you talk about this response, is this happening in the hospital or is this happening at their house or with the scene of the incident?

Can you just talk about what is the location in terms of like this level of response?

Absolutely.

The 90% of the time we are meeting with them at the hospital.

So if they're brought into surgery, obviously we wait until they it's been approved by their physician to actually meet with them, but yes, we're going to the hospital and we're making contact with them and their family members there at the hospital.

Thank you.

So this is just um a slide of the shooting victims within St.

Paul prior to the start of the unit.

So you can see during the COVID George Floyd timeframe, we had a high in 2022 of 194 victims that were struck by gunfire within our city.

2023, just prior to the start of our unit, we had 122 victims.

The first year we had 107, and then last year we ended the year with 73.

Again, not a great number.

Uh, we completely understand that.

But it um, but since the start of the unit, these the gunshot wound victims have decreased by 40 percent, and um that's 40% less people that have been struck by gunfire in our in our city.

So absolutely, Commander Nicole, we have um Council President Acre.

Thank you, Chair Bowie.

I I really appreciate having this data look to look at, and I always want to celebrate success.

Um, and I think actually the next slide even more points to the success of the department in particular in this unit.

Um, but I note that the decline started prior to the inception of the non-fatal shooting, and cities across the country are seeing significant declines in violent crime, so which is good news.

Um I'm wondering, do we have any way of correlating the um or not correlating but showing a causation between the inception of this unit and the decrease?

Yes, um, so prior to the start of our unit, Chief Henry made it his um one of his goals within coming into his chief role of uh focusing on gun violence.

So I believe part of the start of that decline was our aspire unit was our officer of Office of Neighborhood Safety trying to build stronger relations within the community.

But you are exactly right.

We are throughout the country seeing a decline in violent crime.

Um, we the numbers, the statistics that we are seeing, it's lower than what nationwide they're seeing.

We also have um, you know, different studies that are uh that Denver PD has um participated in, um, and I haven't quite seen those results yet, just to show the correlation based on the investigative type that they were doing previously to how they are investigating those cases now, seeing if there is actually a correlation if they can draw that cause and effect.

Um, we don't have that data.

We kind of look at the we do look at the fact that it's lower than the rest of the country.

So we we feel as though us, along with our partners have helped to attribute um to the those lower numbers, but no, we don't have specific data showing that really great question, and we have another question or comment from council member Kim.

Yeah, a follow-up to that great question.

Um, right, I think it just illustrates that less people are getting struck by gunfire, and that's like you know, a great thing, as the council president said.

I have one question on the data and a second question around kind of like correlation.

The first one is do you have this disaggregated by age?

Um, I'm sorry, one more time.

Do you have the data disaggregated by age?

We do.

Um, we can absolutely get you that.

I don't have it here with me today, but we can get you that.

Yeah, that would be a great follow-up because prior to 2020, um, the council uh piloted um was it COPP money where we um sent out an RFP for community organizations to come forward, some are youth focused, some were uh like the community ambassador program, and I sort of wonder around like the trends of impact that maybe we saw after those programs were implemented.

Okay, and then in addition, so I I wonder about age, right?

And if it's changing, are we getting better in some age groups than others, depending on the intervention?

And the other question or thought that I had is you know, this is you know maybe not a popular talking point, but we also have one of the best trauma centers in the state at Regions Hospital, and there are people that would walk into this hospital that potentially would not survive, and so I also kind of wonder around like this is not like you don't actually need to pull the data, but I'm very curious around like the investments in that trauma center and how that also might correlate to this data, and how it also might correlate to how quickly our first responders get there, like our ALS units, which is looks like exactly where you were going as well.

So, yeah.

I sort of wonder around like the context of this numbers in a and I know this is what you came here today, so it's not to pick it apart.

But like it just makes me curious around the greater context of these numbers in terms of the multitude of services that feed into this information.

Absolutely.

I that's what I mean when I speak about our partners.

Um, for sure, our uh fire department paramedics that are responding and police officers as well, putting tourniquets on some of these victims and then getting them to regions.

We comment all the time that had it not been for regions, we would have been having another homicide.

So it yes, the 100%, those definitely contribute to the fact that we don't have homicides, not the fact that they aren't struck by bullets, I guess would be a way to look at that.

That's not amazing.

We have a follow up.

Um, Councilmember Johnson.

Hi, uh thank you so much.

Um I really appreciate too this presentation.

We have had a few different uh shootings in my ward lately, and so I represent the east of St.

Paul Ward 7.

I just wanted to also uh kind of carry on, I guess, to uh council member Kim's question for a little bit further data of just also um I guess where they're where the gunshot uh wounds or victims are taking place, like where the shootings are actually taking place, would be very helpful to also share because I know when we look at the numbers, right?

I think it's also really important to understand just like where we're cracked may be seen, um, not necessarily if there's a concentration area, and just like how we're how we are responding um accordingly, and so just kind of curious if you have beyond the age, which is also gonna be my question, um that gets into two if we're seeing like a younger uh a younger SKU and data of age, you know.

Then it's like, well, what are what is the conversations look like with the school districts and look like looking like with the you know parks and rec staff and some of the coordination that can happen there?

But I think also if we're starting to see just areas and especially over the last few years where there has been continuous um maybe concentrations of hot spots in the city, how we are also responding to them as the numbers decrease.

Because that's something that I see like is just really important, and our clearance rate increases.

We um when we look at the data there, I just would love to know when we say St.

Paul, you know, where exactly we're starting to see that.

Yeah, we can um definitely work to get that broken down for you as well.

Thank you.

So thank you, Customer Johnson.

I do want to, I'm sure I'm making a note as well.

Um I know in our last meeting um we had one of the recommendations that came from um that was in the national um network of safe cities with Sasha Cotton, was to have weekly, if not monthly um um shooting data, shots box data.

Um, and I think we we might still have that.

I know on a on a weekly basis we get emails, but I think it'll be really great to integrate that into our committees to where we could just have it as just like an item so we can see, you know, not only race, age, um, and then also location as well.

So we can see if we can work on that, absolutely.

Yeah.

Um, and then here is uh just the clearance rates for our non-fatal shootings, um, what it looked like prior to the start of our non-fatal shooting unit.

We were usually sitting uh anywhere from low 20s to upper 30 percent for clearance rate, and now we are two years in a row have been um over 70 percent.

Uh I believe we're gonna be closer to 75 by the time we currently have seven cases that are still open from 2025, um, but I I think we're gonna be closer to um 75% by the time we get all those cases closed.

So and then I also wanted to highlight just um the number of homicide victims that has uh gone down since the start of the unit.

Um as you can see, it is uh trending down.

Um the lower number of the two in the bar graph is gun-related homicides.

Um, and last year we only had eight only.

That's a horrible way to put that, but we had eight people that were unfortunately struck um and died from gunfire, but lower than our high at 30 in 2022.

So and again, that uh gun-related homicides have decreased 62% since the start of the unit.

Uh Commander Nico have a question from Consumer Jackson, and also um VP Yang.

Thank you, uh thank you, uh Chair Bowie and Commander.

Just a quick question for you that popped in as you were kind of going through the numbers as well.

Um consistently throughout the years uh that I guess the last two years, has it always been at the same staffing level?

Yes, we have.

We've been um very fortunate that uh we've been able to maintain six sergeants and two officers uh staffed within non-fatal shooting unit.

Okay.

I'm just one thing I just will note is um as I continue to see the positive um both coverage but also like reporting back what the numbers and the 71% data point for the last two years and just like the the overall work that you all are putting in.

I just want to also celebrate that, but also uplift that in as a testament to a very small um you know unit when it comes to uh personnel, but the impact overall.

Um, and I just think that that's really a testament to where when you are able to prioritize certain things, you see the actual data quite literally double in a year and then sustain over time and continue to grow.

Um I think that it would be really helpful at least from our vantage point too, and uh I'm overall really interested in hearing to the like the typical day of a sergeant um in this unit.

Because I think one of the things that we had just I know for myself, I had a lot of time to talk to our local east uh east side district, you know, police officers and folks that are out on the ground.

We did a ride along, but I don't necessarily feel like I've had a chance to really hear um and see directly what a day in the life of a sergeant within the non-fatal um shooting unit entails and like what it all includes, especially surrounding like the back end.

Um, you know, what does it look like start to finish?

And I just wanted to share my interest in that, especially as we head into the summer.

Um, and so um, just that's an open invitation, but Jeff definitely just something that I am intrigued with, more so as someone who's learning, especially what our our approach here at the city is to something that is so important to my community.

So just wanted to share that.

Absolutely, we can definitely arrange something to someone to speak with you, and that's not a problem at all.

And then um DP Yang.

Thank you, Chair Bowie.

I just wanted to take a moment to commend you all for your work.

It you all are uh the unit is a small but mighty mighty team, and I just wanted to share that for me personally.

This is definitely the type of um investment that we need to continue making in the city.

I mean, you can clearly see in the results that the the results mean they really speak for itself.

This is really impressive and and just incredible.

And so I want to say thank you.

Like, this is life-saving work.

And I'm I'm curious.

Like, you know, I'm um I'm seeing the progression here, which is really incredible.

I'm wondering what is it when you compare it to like the number of let's say like overall gun violence cases or attempt attempted homicide cases.

What does that look like?

Because part of me is wondering, okay, maybe um we're we're seeing that, for example, like we might be seeing more gun violence cases where the person who's um the the perpetrator, they're just not um like they're trying to hit somebody for sure, but it's just not um it's not hitting like whoever they're trying to aim at, and so I'm wondering if you can can uh give us like a bit of context to understand that piece too.

So the um you had mentioned attempted homicide, and I just want to touch on that because those are actually investigated by our unit.

Um, so it it really is uh up to the charging attorney.

Um, and we have such great partnerships with Ramsey County attorney's office, like they are the reason the reason why we are successful.

It wouldn't matter if our investigation was super thorough.

If they didn't want to charge those cases, we you know, we would be nowhere because the same people would still be running free.

So I cannot thank them enough for everything that they do.

So that the attempted homicide, it would depend upon you know how many times did the suspect shoot, you know, where how um severe was the victim's injuries.

It could be an attempted um murder case or it could be an assault case.

Uh, with regards to your question about shooting at someone and not actually hitting.

I kind of look at the way that we are investigating these cases.

We're kind we are or I shouldn't say these cases, um, gun violence within the city.

We're taking chunks out of it as we go, you know.

Homicide, obviously that's always been a priority.

Well, then we had the aspire unit, um, and then we've morphed into our non-fatal shooting unit, and now the focus is going on our um we called our gun unit, where we know that shots um have been fired within the city.

We don't even have a victim because maybe they're just shooting up in the air, but that's that person that shooting, you know, just shooting up in the air could be turning that gun on an individual next.

So now we won't have the exact same response that we have to the homicides and non-fatal shooting, but we are definitely more thoroughly investigating these cases, even when we don't have a victim because we understand that maybe that person is not supposed to have a gun within the city.

They're definitely not supposed to be shooting within the city.

You know, these are all um crimes that that need to be thoroughly investigated that if solved um it's gonna take guns off the street, it's gonna help our community members feel safer.

So we're just taking chunks as we go and um shifting our focus, okay.

Now we're doing this really well.

Let's see what can we do next.

What's our next step in um reducing gun violence?

So just a quick follow-up.

Thanks, Chair Boy.

Um and just in general, I'm wondering in terms of gun violence cases we're seeing in St.

Paul.

Is it on the rise?

Are we seeing a decrease in it?

So our shots fired is down.

I think Alyssa would maybe know this a little bit better, but I think all uh matrix within um gun violence is down within the city.

Um, so that that is a win.

Even the shots fired are down, so and along that um question, I wanted to ask, particularly around if there's been a history um with SPPD, particularly.

I just remember when I was in my time serving in Minneapolis, there was like these big gun buy um programs, um gun buyback programs.

And I'm just curious to know um, you know, where if we've had those levels of initiatives, and also what is our response for like gun possessions?

They're like not crimes, but like if there's like gun possessions or illegal gun possessions.

Definitely um, no, there are people that within our cases that maybe they weren't a shooter, but they had a gun illegally.

That's definitely someone that we are working to get charged investigating.

Um, and as far as the gun buyback program, I believe Ramsey County has had something like that in the past.

I don't know how long ago that was, and I'm not familiar with um a program like that within the city.

Okay, and one last question, too, because I see we have well, actually, I'll let you do this last slide because it's connected to the partnership.

So yes, a lot of this I've already touched on, but um just the one thing maybe I haven't is that uh previously these cases were investigated, um, looking for victim cooperation, and we found that kind of similar to domestic violence, we don't get a lot of victim cooperation in these cases.

So we're really basing our investigation on evidence, you know, video evidence, um, just uh the um niben that we talked about earlier.

Um, and uh so we are able to build this case on a solid foundation rather than a victim that may be cooperative one day and not cooperative another.

So uh we've um that's been a switch in how we are looking at these cases, but I think it's been a really good switch, and I believe that Ramsey County has been on board with that as well, based on how they are charging out these cases.

And then, yes, definitely want to highlight our partnerships.

Um, I've mentioned Ramsey County attorney's office as far as their uh charging side, but then also Ramsey County Sheriff's Office, they have a victim um program where they have funds available.

If uh let's say we have a victim that maybe needs immediate housing, we've contacted Ramsey County Sheriff's Office, they've been able to help us with funding regarding that, and then of course, Office of Neighborhood Safety.

Uh they continually are um looking to assist individuals that either are struck by bullets witnesses, and you know, because you know, the and even people individuals that are kind of on that border of maybe today they're uh could be potentially in the life of um gun violence, but then the next day they could end up being a victim.

So those are important people that we need to reach out and um try to help them.

So, um, and then ultimately uh our department is just really working cohesively for the mission of reducing gun violence, as I talked about within major crimes.

We are all just jumping on board and and helping out.

Um, and then also our patrol units, you know, just the great response from them.

I can't uh talk enough about it's because of the response in the investigation they did within those first couple minutes before our investigators got there, that really helped us solve the case.

You know, it's just that one little piece that they were able to pick up.

So we just are really proud of our police department and um everything that's going on there.

So any questions at all?

Thank you so much, Commander Nicole.

We have two questions here from Council President Naker and then council member Joe's.

Uh well, thank you, Chair Bowie.

I just want to echo my colleagues' praise to you and the division.

Um, I think it is amazing how much um just focused attention on something matters, um, bringing the same amount of attention we were bringing to homicides to non-fatal gunshot wounds, and that's that's the difference.

Um, and then I also appreciate you've said the word partner so many times in this presentation, and so it's um so evident and um I think noteworthy that you and and Ramsey County are working so closely together using a model that worked in Denver, not reinventing the wheel, and and sure enough it's working here.

I also want to note there's a partner uh in the house that we're gonna hear from in a minute, Moms Demand Action, who has been um so critical in helping us pass legislation related to things like safe storage.

Um I think that's actually what led to the huge drop-off after 2024 was when that passed, and then you see um the drop-off in gunshot ones there.

I just wanted to ask um in terms of going forward, um, the money you mentioned runs out this year to Chair Bowie's earlier question about like how much specifically does the program cost, especially in ongoing costs now that you've purchased software, initial startup fees, things like that.

How are you thinking about funding the program in the future?

Well, um, that I'm going to have to refer to um our assistant chief Ford.

Uh that's definitely something that we have been talking about, that this is not a program that we can stop, you know.

You know, we it would be um remiss of us to do to stop doing this.

So they are working on different ways that uh we can um still get the response, still use the technology that we've um been able to utilize to help really solve the cases that uh the evidence that we need, um, get that evidence.

Um so I'm gonna have to leave that question to Assistant Chief Ford.

So thank you.

I have a follow-up to that, uh, but also I don't want to forget about Councilmember Joe's.

Okay.

Um thank you, Chairbue, uh, Commander Peterson.

I had a similar question.

Um, I'll start kind of with a with a comment.

I uh really appreciate the presentation and uh and you know the results from the non-fatal shooting unit, uh and then also you know, really um committed to investing in in this and also all of the partnerships and relationships and our partner departments that also contribute to um the the results that we've been seeing over the last few years.

And so my question was similar to Council President Nakers, because I also recognize that we had three million dollars over three years and kind of what happens next.

Um could you could you talk a little bit more about how the three million dollars has been spent if you can because it's also my understanding that the um the uh looks like there's ten employees that are part of this program and it you said that we sometimes they use overtime when they get called to these um these uh these uh occurrences in our city.

So if you could talk about that a little bit more, just so we could understand the cost of this program.

But it sounds like uh assistant chief Ford might have more information.

And then my other question, um, are there other cities similar in size or maybe even not similar in size to St.

Paul that have their uh own non-fatal shooting unit?

Um I'll start with that question first because I can answer that the fastest and easiest.

Um Minneapolis is starting one up.

I know that their response is a little different than ours because I don't think they have the staffing to do it in the same way that we do, but they are definitely trying.

Um they've seen the results over here and they're like, we got to try something.

Um Denver, there are not a lot within the country.

Uh the big difference I think between us and other agencies that are trying this, um, when we went out to Denver, uh, they talked about how people are departments will kind of go partway in.

Maybe they won't do the on-call piece where they respond to the shootings.

But what Denver found is that if you go all in and you are going out to all of these shootings and you're meeting with all the victims and and um starting that investigation right away, that's where you really see the results.

So I don't, while I think they are some non-fatal shooting units throughout the country, there are not a lot that have an on-call response like we do.

I mean, maybe a handful.

Um, but on the flip side of that, I believe it's gaining momentum, and people are seeing the results, and they understand that that's something that they need to try.

Um, with regard to the money and the breakdown, um, I we can get you a breakdown of how that money was has been spent up until this time, um, that I think would answer your question better than I can do it off the top of my head if you're comfortable with that.

Okay, thank you.

Yeah, and if I have a question from Chair Johnson.

Yeah, no, that that data would be very helpful, Commander.

I I'm just uh I guess along the vein of just like really talking about, I think there's you know, there's definitely an appetite for uh for my or I guess on my behalf to see this program sustain.

I think there are several things about um the non-fatal shooting unit, but the most obviously important is that it seems to be working from what I gather.

Um, one of the things that I would just ask is if um you are aware of any sort of support that maybe you're getting from the grants team, or when it comes to just being able to kind of advocate for the sustained funding over time, what I know that this was you know, predominantly the money had come from the state, so are you seeing some appetite for contigued investment at the state level and or federal level or even just in the philanthropic sector?

Like, are you starting to receive solicitations, or is there certain things that you've just kind of had your eye on, especially just when I think about the investments that we're making?

And I think also just it seems sometimes that the St.

Paul Police Department has, at least on the council agendas, there are several times where we're applying or accepting funding, and I'm just wondering if you all um if there's any updates around just like how you were seeking out uh more grant-related endeavors too.

Um, I believe the legislature, the state legislature is looking at funding non-fatal shooting units.

Um I uh I don't know where that is in the process.

I um believe it went through uh it passed through one level and it's um working its way through the rest.

Um initially that bill was proposed for departments that are struggling with their clearance rates.

We don't qualify.

Um, but that being said, the person that proposed the bill also said he doesn't want to punish departments that are doing a good job but still need the funding to continue the work that they're doing.

So I'm not sure if there was a revision written in that or where it's at in that process.

I know um Chief uh Henry actually um uh spoke to the legislator about our our um unit and the success that we've had and helps to um just promote the success of it.

Um so no, at this point we have not really um sought out any grants uh that I'm aware of.

Um so no, at this point we have not.

That's a really great question, Chair Johnson.

And that was like along the side the questions I had, particularly around what's going on at the state level.

I do know a couple weeks ago there was this article um about uh representative Cedric Baker, or excuse me, Cedric Fraser, different Cedric, um, was uh the chief author of the clearance grant.

Um, and I know that's the the funding that the city of Minneapolis was looking to use, um, and understanding that we're on the last year of our public safety funds or the public safety aid, um, which I believe was like what five or seven years ago or it was a while.

Um it was 2023, but funding for 2024.

Okay, yeah, for the 2024 526 is the funding for it.

And uh, and I believe it must have been in a slide, but if not, but it was uh three million dollars that was given to actually backfill this program.

Now that we're coming towards the end of it, it is really important.

I share the same uh response from all my colleagues that I want to be committed to this.

I want to ensure that we have enough funding for it, but I also want to just ensure that we're not just um banking on overtime, you know, and then that has been a shared agreement amongst all of us in terms of what are ways that we can best manage and reduce overtime, um, just because you know, we I think this is uh uh unit that has a lot of success and it gives an opportunity to also recruit.

Um so I will be interested in the budget conversations just to see if there is a plan to expand staffing.

Um so there isn't not only um overuse of overtime, but also I think about burnout.

I think about you know being a first responder and having to respond to non-fatal shootings to to shootings in general, and just how that just weighs on you, right?

And I'm really just thinking about just the overall health and well-being of our of our um responders and people who have to show up to the scene time and time again.

So that's something uh we'll definitely make sure we can follow up on.

Uh I also will be um following up with um Office of Financial Services because I know um Chief Henry he did share with me a couple days ago in preparation for this um presentation that some of the financing is you know that the breakdown and staffing and everything that's handled in that department.

So, but I just truly truly appreciate um the the eagerness to even come before us.

I know uh we've been looking to have this presentation back in last year, and I'm happy that we have some great results even now, and how if we can support in the future.

So thank you so much, Commander.

Is there any other questions before we move on?

Thank you so much, Commander.

I really also want to thank you for your interest.

It um it speaks to uh just the level that you guys are um want to hear about how we're doing and and the fact that it um affects your uh constituents, it's just I really appreciate it.

So thank you.

Absolutely.

So agenda item number two, and I think uh we have about 15 minutes um for this last speaker.

So do we have time?

I still love it.

Okay.

Sorry about that.

We I'm thinking 11 in my head, but we have we have enough time for you.

Okay, yes.

Please don't feel um I've got some public schools out today, so I've got little boys at home that need me.

So I'll keep it some good queue.

Oh, nice.

Um, PRG.

And we are um we are YouTube live, so hopefully they're watching.

We've gotten very excited.

Unless you're limiting their YouTube time, it's like we're all trying to do it.

And not succeeding.

There's their civic lessons for the day.

Right.

That's a future mayor if they're if they're watching.

So council member Joest and I see each other a lot out and about.

Okay.

Oh, the police left, but I wanted to thank them for that presentation.

The non-fatal injuries um initiative is is gets a lot of attention in our sphere and is really a model.

Um, and so I wanted to just thank them for all that information and the hard work that they're doing that they're doing.

And Kathleen's excuse me.

Right before you start, I just want to make sure Pierre gets a chance to read in uh in the records.

Oh, our OTC team can cue it up.

Thank you.

Uh item number two, SR2610, St.

Paul, mom's demand action.

Herbal overview and legislator update.

All right.

Wonderful.

Thank you all so much for having me.

Thank you, Chair Bowie.

Thank you to all the council members.

It's good to see so many familiar faces and be back in this familiar space.

Um, my name is Kathleen Anderson.

I am a longtime lead with Mom's Demand Action St.

Paul and the greater state of Minnesota.

Um, I'm also now the director of outreach and organizing for Protect Minnesota.

So I'm like the nexus of a lot of work across the state.

Um, and I'm a social worker, so thank you so much.

Um, and as a social worker, I've become a bit of a subject matter expert when it comes to firearm suicide prevention in particular, which is a huge issue around the country.

It's a huge issue in our state.

Um, and I'm gonna talk a little bit more about why.

Um, and so that's why I'm here today.

That's why Gretchen asked me to do this presentation.

Um, when someone is in crisis and exhibiting these signs of suicidal ideation, prolonged sadness, changes in mood or behavior, hopelessness, sleep problems, withdrawing, isolation, aggression or agitation, increase in risk-taking behavior, increased alcohol or drug use, or talk of killing themselves or harming others.

As a clinician, but also just as like a person in this world, my number one concern is if they have access to a gun.

And the reason is because guns are so uniquely lethal when they are used in suicide.

Um, when a firearm is used as a means to suicide, it is fatal 90% of the time.

Other methods are fatal three to eight percent of the time.

And so when someone attempts suicide with a gun, there is little to no time for them to reconsider, to be interrupted, to be rendered medical aid.

Um, and that is why it is so fatal.

And so when somebody can has the opportunity to survive a suicide attempt, they have the opportunity to go on and recover.

There's a really harmful myth out there that you know, if somebody is really determined, they'll find a way, and that's just not borne out in the evidence and the data.

The reality is is that the majority of people who survive a suicide attempt do go on to recover, but they need that second chance.

A firearm does not offer them that opportunity.

So again, whenever someone is in or approaching crisis, that's my question, whether it's on like a Facebook forum or in a in a you know, in a in a clinical setting, is do they have easy access to a firearm?

Um, and when we ask that question, it's because firearm suicide is really widespread.

Um, we are getting better at talking about suicide and talking about firearm suicide, but there is still a really strong taboo, especially in um different communities.

But more than 26,000 people die by gun suicide annually in the United States.

That's nearly six in 10 deaths um by firearm are suicides, so self-inflicted gunshot wounds.

In Minnesota, that number is usually about seven out of ten.

This last year, 2025, 77% of our gun deaths in Minnesota were firearm suicides.

So a lot of the work that I do is talking about what gun violence looks like in Minnesota.

It overwhelmingly looks like firearm suicides.

Traditionally, that is older white men in greater Minnesota.

I think it but increasingly we are noticing the trends moving more into the city center, and we're noticing that youth, particularly black and brown youth are at a higher risk of firearm suicide.

So while it still disproportionately impacts older white males because they tend to be gun owners and have disp like disparate discrepancies in their access to mental health services and the you know stigma and talking about it, but we are noticing it increasingly affecting youth and increasingly affecting people in the cities.

Um we already talked about how 90% of suicide attempts with a gun end in death, and 54% of all suicides in the US involve a gun.

So the question becomes what can we do?

You all know moms demand action is always banging the drum about practicing secure storage.

So at the individual level, everybody that has a firearm in the home can practice secure storage to prevent accidental injury, discharge, children getting a hold of it, preventing gun theft, and then creating a barrier between an overwhelming urge and a fatal suicide attempt.

We do suggest that if somebody in the home is experiencing not even quite a crisis, but way before we get to that point.

We say, like if you're if you're feeling what I call wobbly, right?

If you have seasonal affective disorder and it's that season, if you're having a relapse, job loss, grief, those are times to consider changing the code or giving the keys away to another family member.

If it is uh if your symptoms are persisting, you might want to engage in out-of-home storage where you might store your gun with a friend or family member at a storage unit on loaded, um, or we have temporary gun storage maps throughout the state.

Not a lot in St.

Paul because we don't have gun shops in St.

Paul, but there are some in the suburbs.

Um, and then the final option, um, and again, like the last and final step is what what I'm here to present the rest on, and those are our extreme risk protection orders.

So this was legislation that was passed in 2023, and it has already had a tremendous success.

I wish I had the data statewide off the top of my head.

I think we've filed over 400 URPO petitions since 2023, and so that's potentially 400 lives that have been saved, not to mention if there was um threats against other people.

Um we they've they've um the data is already really strong from the first two years of implementation.

Basically, an extreme risk protection order is a court order that can temporarily remove the gun from someone's guns or a gun from someone's possession while they're in a crisis moment, and the idea is creating time and space for them to get the help that they need.

So petitioners are law enforcement, um, city or county attorneys, and then immediate loved ones.

Um, so that's usually people that live in the household, parents, grandparents' um children, um, and they can file a petition with the court for the guns to be temporarily removed.

Um a great example of that is um right after enunciation up in Duluth, there was a man who was threatening to shoot up the school across the street.

Um so he was arrested for making those threats, but again, he hasn't committed a crime.

You can't really you can't charge somebody just with those threats.

Um, but they were able to file an emergency petition for the immediate removal of the guns from his home.

Um, and then so when he was released, he didn't have access to them, nor would he pack a back pass a background check to get more guns.

And so those school children, those staff, those parents, that community was safe, while this person hopefully got the help that he needed.

Um, an emergency order is gonna be um within two days, so again, demonstrating the urgency of this issue, up to 14 days where a court hearing has to be held.

That final extreme risk protection order can last from six months to a year and can be renewed if the original petitioners deems it necessary.

But you do have due process, you do go in front of a judge, you do still have access to your rights.

Nothing goes on your criminal record.

This is in civil court, but while you are in the in or approaching this period of crisis, you do not have access to a highly lethal means.

Director Heffling, I have a quick question about the story you uh gave.

When you mentioned petition, um, is that was a petition put in place before the emergency order, or is now the emergency order uh substituting or replacing the petition.

Yeah, so usually how it, from what I remember of the paperwork, which you can easily find on one thing you can do.org, um, under the under the state of Minnesota, um, you the petitioner, in this case, I think it was law enforcement, um, and it often is law enforcement, they do the majority of petitions.

Um, they they it's like you check a box for an emergency order and then the or the and the final order.

Most people are checking both boxes because they want the guns removed as soon as possible, and then they they and then it's going to go to court for it to continue beyond 14 days.

Um, but the the petition is that um that document that is sent in in this case by law enforcement.

Does that answer your question?

Yeah, thank you.

Okay, sure.

I have a lot of friends who actually handle the paperwork that are better at like some of the nitty-gritty, but um, so yeah, so we talked about the real life scenario, deciding if you should take action.

Um I do a lot of outreach.

Uh, Gretchen always famously says like that the it's a great policy, it's a great tool that we have in our toolkit, um, but it is only as good as the paper that it's written on if people don't know about it and don't know that it's an option.

Um, and so I do a lot of the outreach with just sharing with people like this is what suicidal crises can look like, this is what everyone should be doing, and these are the escalating steps you can take before it gets to this high risk situation.

Um what makes it high risk are those imminent threats, um, direct threats of harm against self or others, um, the number of weapons, um, and just somebody's grounding in in reality.

You know, we kind of know the difference between somebody who's having a hard time and recognizes it and somebody that is very unaware that they are having a hard time and that they are a danger to themselves or others.

So that would be a time when you would want to take the step to reduce their access to lethal means while they while they reground themselves and get the help that they need.

Um so it's like awareness of the problem, willingness to do something about it.

Again, there's like all of these steps that people can voluntarily take if they won't voluntarily take those steps because of, you know, that lack of grasp of reality or their own threat to self-that would be a time to take matters into um ERPOS hands.

Um one thing I want to note too, especially because there's a lot of discussion about you know, we have to focus on mental illness, we have to talk about mental health.

Um, the majority of people who we know that A, we know that people that uh live with mental illness are disproportionately likely to be victims of gun violence as opposed to perpetrators.

Um over 50% of people who die by suicide did not have a diagnosable mental health condition at the time of their death.

Um, and so it's just a much more nuanced conversation than just like, oh, someone has mental illness, you know, and then therefore they shouldn't have a gun.

That just doesn't really match reality.

Um, and there's no mental, uh there's no diagnostic requirement for an ERPO to be filed because there's not really a diagnostic, you know, there isn't really a diagnostic code for rage and radicalization and isolation, you know, like it's a it's a much more complex problem than the DSM captures.

Um, and so we talked a little bit about how it works with the emergency order and the hearing date within 14 days.

Um, and then at the hearing, the court decides whether they'll issue that final extreme risk protection order again based on the evidence.

Um, and during that time, not only do you not have access to your guns, but you're prohibited from purchasing for the duration of that order.

And then we talked about how they can be renewed.

Um, and then once the order expires, the person will get their guns back and can legally buy and possess new ones unless they're prohibited from possessing for another reason.

You had a question from House Barber.

Our Coleman, excuse me.

Oh, yeah, sorry.

Thank you so much for being here today for this presentation.

I have a question about when they're flagged on the background check if they were to try to purchase a gun during the period that the uh the ERPO was in place.

In those instances, is there any notification to um law enforcement or anybody else that they've been attempting to purchase a gun during this period when at that point they know that they've aren't legally permitted to?

That is a great question for my friend at the ATF.

Um, I think a lot of those, I think those are some of the concerns is just like with the lack of funding um for the ATF and for local law enforcement and and the some often dismissal of gun violence as a um a public health and a public safety problem that we can prevent.

Um we don't always have those red flags in place.

Um but in theory, they certainly cannot pass a background check.

That doesn't mean that um people would be notified by the attempt.

But that is a really good question that I'd I'd like to know too.

So I'll try to follow up.

And a couple questions from council president maker and then councilmember Joseph.

Thanks, Triple.

Um, two questions.

Um, one of them just related to the uh temporary extreme risk protection order and the hearings.

Are the hearings you mentioned that the temporary protection order lasts 14 days and the person is notified of a hearing date within 14 days?

Is the hearing actually going held within 14 days?

Yes, the hearing has to be held within 14 days, and that's part of the the due process kind of promise that was made when the when the law was passed.

Okay, and then um during the hearing, I guess on whom is the burden of proof lying.

So if I am saying I'm feeling unsafe, and the other person is saying I don't know why she's feeling that like how I guess is it determined by the court that someone uh should have one of these, and who on whom is the heavier burden of proof?

Yeah, um, I have not sat in for one of those petitions.

Um they're not public.

Um, sorry, the I have not sat in for one of the hearings.

The petitions themselves are publicly available.

Um, from the violence prevention project at Hamlin University does a really has done a really great job kind of tracking the day data from the implementation.

Um I know from the first year it was something like it was upwards of 80%, maybe even 90% of the emergency orders were approved, and something like 80% were of the court hearings, like the final orders were were approved.

And so it pointed to the fact that the cases that we're getting in front of judges uh were very, very strong, that there was a lot of evidence to back up the need for the temporary removal of this person's weapons, um, but I don't know.

I'm not a legal expert, so in terms of the burden of proof, I'm not as equipped to answer that question.

But these are Gretchen's gonna help you remember all these great questions so that we can follow up.

Because we're always learning too.

This is terrific.

I mean, just as a quick problem, I think I'm thinking about how to, because to your point, we want to spread the word about the school, and I think one of the first questions, especially um, you know, a family member, for example, might ask is what what kind of evidence you know do I need to be successful in a hearing like this.

So, no, and that's great, and that's one of the reasons that I brought these like postcards.

So we have these when we table throughout the state, you'll see us at safe summer nights this this summer.

Um, one thing you do can do.org is if it's with that whole idea is that like it's heartbreaking to watch a loved one suffer and to be worried about them and what they're going to do.

And like the one thing you can do is reduce their access to this highly lethal means.

Um, and then it breaks it down by state because different states um have slightly different processes, they've got different paperwork, of course.

They've also got different groups of people who can petition, and some states medical professionals or social service providers can petition as well.

Um, and so in Minnesota, you have access to the court documents, FAQs in English and in Spanish.

Um, we need to work on that.

Um, but then um, and it walks you through all of the acceptable evidence and the things that you would need to have a strong case.

Um Ramsey County has done a tremendous job of staffing the extreme risk protection order team.

Um, and I know Hennepin County has as well.

And in fact, there's uh one of my peers is a social worker who works for the Hennepin County's Urban Office helping people navigate this process.

A lot of times a family member will inter will share the information, share their evidence with law enforcement and have law enforcement kind of do it on their behalf as well and help them navigate that process.

In an ideal world, not only would everybody know about this tool, but every every county would have somebody helping with that process, but we're not there quite yet.

It's very uneven throughout the state, even county by county, which counties are embracing this as a tool and which ones are not.

Councilmember Jelson and Councilmember Johnson.

Thanks, Chair.

We um Kathleen, I had a similar question.

I was trying to understand like the process in the hearing and what is the um and you know, how does that work?

But I think my other and I was also gonna ask how many of those like 400 petitions were actually like granted.

It sounds like you said eight eighty to ninety percent or something.

Yeah, it's a it's a significant number.

I'd have to look back at last year's aggregated data.

Um, but I guess um what I would be interested in also understanding is you know, I know it's like extreme risk, so to me that you know, if we had a scale of the level of risk, you would have to be it'd have to be very obvious, it seems like, and so what I'd want to understand more is like what is the threshold, you know, in these hearings that you know judges are looking for where they would grant one because when we're talking about things like um mental health issues uh or you know, other types of disorders, those can be fairly complex and sometimes I don't know how you could even prove those if they hadn't been diagnosed, and then is that alone enough to um support an extreme risk protection order?

Just for example, I think there could be a lot of other factors that would support um an extreme risk protection order, but where you know, where is that threshold when we're not kind of on way on the far end of like someone has obviously made a threat and we have proof of it, but we're maybe somewhere in the middle.

I think one of the biggest criteria is is that explicit threat of harm and the idea that like you can back it up with a weapon, right?

And so it's like somebody say, I don't want to say it out loud, but I'm gonna kill myself, or like and so or I'm going to kill you, and then they I know one example in Minneapolis was somebody was he had actually like um fired shots into the ceiling of his apartment and had like longstanding issues with the neighbor above them.

Like that was an example of something that was escalating, right?

So they're looking for explicit threats, escalation of behavior, um, spiraling of, you know, consciousness and just like tetheredness to reality, um, and then it's the lethal means to to create carnage, right?

I mean, like, and I think that that's just the piece is that um it's it's wanting people to get help for for the spiral that they're experiencing and this escalation that they're experiencing while creating safety for themselves and the community around them.

Um there's a much more we could do in terms of like making sure that the people who are like leaving that courtroom with their guns confiscated are getting the mental health resources that they need to.

Um, but that idea of creating a lot of time and space while that person gets the help that they need.

And then I think that there's a lot of great anecdotal stories that I can share in a follow-up to.

And I one more question I was thinking about, so like basically if you if you get an extreme risk protection order, it sounds like it lasts for six months or a year or a certain duration, and then once it ends, uh it sounds like it ends unless it's renewed.

Yep.

So is there are there guidelines or criteria for um uh things that this person is supposed to do in the meantime to be able to, you know, I mean it sounds like it'll just end no matter what unless it's renewed, but how does that work?

Because I guess the concern would be um the extreme risk protection order ends, that person hasn't done anything in the meantime to like you know, be able to get the help that they need, and now you know we're kind of bagged up in the same situation.

Um, what does that look like?

Because it sounds like otherwise you're relying on that to get renewed by whoever petitioned for it in the first place.

Yeah, and I think some of that's gonna depend on the court system in place and and kind of again how much investment the the county attorney has made in this process.

Um I know that in Hennepin and Ramsey County, they're um staff members following these cases and and alerting to like when when they're up for petitioning versus another state where it might just end, right?

And they might just go to their licensed firearm dealer and say, My petition is over, I want my guns back.

And so there's a lot of unevenness throughout the state.

Um, but that would be a really good question for is it Don Babs?

Do my remembering, yeah.

Thank you.

Those are really great questions as well.

I'm gonna I have a follow-up for it.

I'll go to Chair Johnson.

Okay, thank you.

Uh, and just for my awareness as well.

If we were looking to just get the data on, you know, the amounts of these uh petitions granted in Ramsey County.

Um, would we reach out to the attorney's office then for that data?

You um I'm a little hard of hearing, I'm sorry.

Yeah, so I just was wondering like if we wanted to know the numbers of just like how many are issued here in Ramsey County here within the city of St.

Paul, um, you know, would we get that from the attorney's the county attorney's office?

Yeah, Don Baxted would have that as well as Chris Tolbert, I think is doing is the in the office as well.

Um, and then the violence prevention project would have like more statewide data too, so you can kind of compare and contrast.

Um, and I can try I can get some of that information to you as well.

Okay, and then I guess as a follow-up, I just you know, especially with the previous presentation that I have in mind is just I'm wondering if this is automatically something that is pursued in an instance where someone has also fired a firearm or hurt someone.

Um, are they automatically put into this category, or is that something that you it's like a separate petition uh process?

Just wondering if you're coming before a court attorney, you know, for a non-fatal shooting, and now you're a suspect in that case, which I would argue puts you at a risk of you know of harming someone, but also have prove that maybe you have uh and you're waiting this period of time.

Is that something that's automatically put in place, or do you have to be is someone have to petition for you to be in that category?

Law enforcement or county attorney would have to petition for that for that next step and show this preponderance of evidence um of escalating behavior and and access to a you know a lethal weapon.

Um that would have been a very good question.

Sure.

Um earlier, but I don't know that they automatically get put in that same bucket.

Um, but that it is still a tool that is at law enforcement's disposal for sure.

And just one final question, Chair.

Thank you.

Um I guess just for like family members too, and people who are maybe wondering about like, okay, my my loved one or my um uh client for some reason has received this petition, and now I see that they're not able to walk around and purchase a gun, but they have I'm suspicious that they have a ghost gun with them or something that they've been able now to acquire during this petition time.

What does that reporting process look like?

What do you do in that situation?

Um, you know, where you're like, I'm pretty sure you have a petition that you are not able to have a gun, all your guns were confiscated, and somehow you now still are armed in some capability.

What do I do then?

Well, and they're vulnerable themselves too.

So I think about that like victim cooperation, and it's just it's it's really hard.

Um, and that's one of the reasons that so often my colleague at Hennepin County has law enforcement take the evidence and the data from the family and becomes the petitioner instead, so that they can take some of that heat off of the family member.

Um, I mean your option would be to report that to your county attorney and to report it to law enforcement.

That's not always that doesn't always feel like a safe option for people for all very complicated reasons, but um they would be in violation of their their order, um, and there would be legal consequences for that, yeah.

Same as there would be if but for violating other civil orders of increasing magnitude.

Well, I I have a follow-up question too that I think.

Well, one of the good things about having this presentation is all your questions get answered before.

Um, but I I want to just say that I really appreciate this not only initiative, but I do think you know this level of response also allows for families to, you know, make that call and allows for law enforcement to interact and provide safety and a non-criminal response.

I think that's one of the highlights from this response versus the non-fatal shooting unit to where you'll you give people the opportunities to make that time to have those rehabilitation services, and also it's not as not punitive, but it doesn't have the same level of stigma, right?

And um, I think you know, especially being um a family member or friend or a neighbor, especially someone who's been you know impacted by gun violence, you know, the the biggest thing that we want is to ensure that our our friend, our neighbor, you know, our family member has helped and sometimes our justice, you know, department or justice response doesn't allow, you know, for that.

So if there's any other questions, I know you have um a couple more slides to go, but I did want to ask, particularly around um funding.

I understand that there's like the the legislation that passed allows for us to have this um non-criminal response or the civil court's response, but I'm really um uh curious around is there like you know direct funding or permanent funding that's coming from the state, or is this all like volunteer-based in terms of like being the awareness outrage that you're providing?

Um Gretchen has the exact numbers um that were attempted to be passed in the bill for an awareness campaign.

Um it did not pass for the same reasons that the larger gun violence prevention bill did not pass, um, it passed in the house, but it never got brought to a vote in the house, and so we do not currently have additional funding for ERPO awareness.

Um, a lot of money was allocated from the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act under President Biden that lives with the Department of Public Safety.

Um, and so there are they are working on a general implementation and kind of maintaining um I don't want to call it like a focus group, but they have a monthly meeting with different um partners throughout the state working on ERPOs, um both outreach implementation, um, the processing of them, identifying some of the like questions that you all brought up in terms of like potential pitfalls.

Um, and they had some suggestions, they call them like cleanup um provisions to the bill just to make it more effective.

Um, but none of that passed this last session.

Um, and so for right now, um, apart from the funding that the Department of Public Safety has for getting the word out, it is based on volunteer efforts and um from the gun violence prevention coalition.

So it's a bit it's one of our biggest priorities, especially after enunciation.

You you can't no one can prove that, but like that would have been an ideal situation.

Like we know that in instances of mass shootings, um, it is always telegraphed ahead of time.

There are always red flags.

People are talking about their intents, um, and people are watching that downward spiral, and often know that there are there is access to weapons, but somebody who saw the red signs did not know about ERPOs or did not feel like they could access them, and that could have averted such a tragedy.

So that's what we're trying to prevent every day.

Thank you.

I just want to joke.

Uh thanks, Chairbo.

You um Kathleen, you just made me think of another question.

Um I don't think the ERPOS would apply to this, but what if you have a situation where there's someone that is in crisis and maybe they don't own a gun but they have access to a gun in their household that is registered to someone else.

Usually people think about it with youth um and adults.

So then it would be on whoever that gun owner is to make sure that they're safely storing because this only applies to like a person and their own guns, correct?

Yeah, and there are cases where parents have been, it's like the petitioners, and then trying to think of what the name is for the respondent.

Um, but that is pretty rare, and people are trying to avoid that for obvious reasons as much as possible.

The goal would be, for example, if school counseling identifies that there's a 16-year-old that's in our approaching crisis and has made explicit threats that the they're involving the parents and the parents are voluntarily reducing access, if they again are an unwilling to an ERPO order against the parents, could be indicated.

Okay.

And I have another question as well.

Um you had mentioned that on the website that um they can either um file a petition or reach out to law enforcement.

Uh have you seen any uh response that's coming through like 911 calls?

Because I imagine if someone maybe in the mediate of the moment is, you know, calling 911 and you know, maybe dispatching a law enforcement to make this type of extreme risk protection order, but may not want to actually, you know, uh support like an arrest.

I'm just wondering if like if we if there's been any trainings with a dispatch, that would be that would be a really good question for my my friend that works in Hennepin County because I'm sure she would get a lot of those.

I feel like people would mostly be referred to the attorney's office to file it.

Um I don't think that there is I'm not familiar with the relationship between ERPOs and emergency services, but that is a really good question.

Yeah, and I just asked just because you know I I would assume the attorney's office probably is like a nine to five, you know, like bank hours.

Like what about like the weekends, and if someone wants to file this petition or if they want to like get immediate help um and get this on the radar, if there's like a correlation or a collaboration between our emergency services.

I know here in St.

Paul we work with Ramsey County as our dispatch and in Hannipin County, also with Minneapolis.

So that's good to know.

Um I know that was one of the cleanup um, and it was also for for DV compliance because that's a related process for um restraining orders and having guns confiscated.

Um in some uh counties you have a judge who will respond to everything within 24 hours, and in other counties you don't, and so again, there's just inconsistencies throughout the throughout the state, um, but just making sure that people have um have access to that removal within 48 hours because it is an emergency, and in a true emergency, 48 hours feels like way too long, and so it's still not perfect.

Yeah, perfect.

Well, I also just wanted to ask, um, well, one, I want to say I appreciate Gretchen um from you know moms demand action.

You're you're here with us.

Um, Gretchen had a chance to make it to one of my office hours and had shared not only um in inviting all of us to um share this in our newsletters and our social medias, but also invite you um to hear and give uh a broader um presentation.

But before we um close out, is there anything that you need from us in terms of to help amplify and get the word out?

Like, how can we best support as council members to make sure we get this resource out to our community?

Um great question.

I think just proactive sharing about one thing you can do or extreme risk protection orders sharing about um secure storage uh devices being available through Ramsey County attorney's office um and Department of Public Safety.

Um the Ramsey County Don Choice got gun lock distribution at several libraries and community centers throughout Ramsey County.

Um so just emphasizing like secure storage, why that matters and if there's ever a timely opportunity to just like remind people of these tools.

Um we talk a lot with St.

Paul Public Schools about um, you know, the number one thing that families can do to prevent guns on school campus is practice secure storage in the home.

And even as early as this last fall, you know, I when I reminded um administration about that, they were like, Well, we're seeing a lot of like guns that are coming because they were stolen from cars, and I'm like, okay, we're so close, like guns are not being stored securely in cars and they're being stolen from cars, and then they're making it to school campus, you know, so like whether you have children in the home or not, you need to be practicing secure storage in your homes and your vehicles to prevent gun theft um and then guns from entering the circulation um amongst people that should not have them, namely youth or people that have um are prohibited from having them or are in crisis.

Wonderful.

I have a question from President Naker.

Thanks, Terri.

I just wanted to follow up on that to say, and in the case of secure storage, that's not just a recommendation, that's the law in St.

Paul.

Thanks to the manager.

Thank you for reminding us all of that.

You were saying it, but I just wanted to double down.

Um, and I honestly nothing makes me well, things make me prouder, but it makes me really proud to drive into Victory parking ramp every morning and see that sign that says, um, and that was also Mom's Demand Action's idea that it's not enough just to pass an ordinance because if people drive into St.

Paul from somewhere else and don't know that that's the ordinance and they already have their gun, well, then they're in a bad place.

So to have um the signage that clearly lets people know that you can't just leave your gun unsecured in your car.

Um, to your point, we're trying to get farther and farther, farther upstream of this issue every every act that we pass.

So just kudos to you.

Thank you.

And then Chair Johnson.

Yes, thank you, Chair, and um thank you, Kathleen, for being here today as well.

And I echo the same kind of sentiments as the council president, uh, you know, I was sitting here and I'm listening and I'm going through the the presentation, and I one of the things that I just recognize as well as that the work of moms demand action, especially here in St.

Paul, but all across the state, you know, really has put us on the brink of some monumental changes to our um to gun reform in ways that I think we were really actually on the brink, especially as a statewide level with some disappointing pieces this legislation, but definitely this legislature uh process and this session.

I think though the continued advocacy, the hours spent, the time spent, the advocacy that has been received, right?

This is um I think has been consistent over the years, but definitely uh especially over the last few have just been really intentional, and I and I hope that there's progress within the team.

Just I know sometimes when you're fighting the good fight, it can be very tiring to do so, and also just in general, like we know that the work that you all are doing it translates to saving more and more lives each year.

Um I do think that we are, you know, I think to the piece of just some of the bipartisanship nature um of the slides that you've even shared, right?

That's a very hard thing to accomplish right now in a very polarized um legislature, but also time in our history politically.

And so I think you know, I just want to offer a couple of words of affirmation when it comes to just like I truly do think that we are on the brink of something um intentional, and we have to move through a couple more uh members uh in the House and um in the Senate, but I definitely think through at the local level too, you've gotten the ears of many mayors, many city council members across the regions, across the state, in ways that I don't think I've seen before.

Because individuals that are working with then moms demand action are regular everyday people who just really care about the safety of our community, the safety of our kids, and the safety of our families.

And so I hope that there are wins despite some of these things, and when you hear from the non-fatal shooting unit and some of the investments that are even made with the amount of work and investments cities are making, at least here in St.

Paul, to try and mitigate that and to respond to both non-vatal and fatal shootings that are happening in our city that those are results truly because of the work that you all do.

And so just want to say thank you while I can while you're in front of us here, but also for being even able to share this with our office so we could share this out.

Um and just reminding people that they too play a role in how um safe our communities are with something just as simple as how you're storing your gun at home.

Um that educational piece is really important, or even in your cars when you're going somewhere, and I think that that we don't necessarily always think about the you know the small things we can do every day to prevent the large tragic um things that our communities have endured for decades.

So thank you.

Oh, thank you.

Yeah, that's one of my favorite parts is that we talk about how we work in gun violence prevention education and advocacy.

It's it's both parts, and we've been getting a lot of like condolences over the last week and a half, and and I'm like, I we built so much power over this last year.

Like I'm not feeling I'm disappointed and I'm determined, you know, we're gonna keep going, but I uh I always need affirmation, so thank you.

And then we have council member Kim.

Yeah, I appreciate that.

Um, because the comprehensive gun um common sense gun laws made it to the Senate, one chamber but not the other.

Um, and so if folks are interested in door knocking this summer, I'll be out knocking doors.

Um it's less of a reflection of the content, but just uh to add to the appreciation, thank you so much for being here.

I think there's also maybe some melancholic poeticism, but today is Melissa Hortman's birthday.

So it's very poignant that we're having this um these topics to come to the council today.

So happy birthday, Melissa.

Happy birthday.

No, absolutely don't thank you so much for um highlighting that because that's I mean, when we think about the champion she was at the house and just even this really difficult session.

Um, and it was I mean, it was really just you know, I would say just disappointing that you know the business of saving lives and you know, for people who like decided to sign up and become policy makers when we think about how we're actually benefiting improving lives and saving lives, that should never be a partisan issue.

It should never be a partisan issue, it should never be a rural versus metro issue.

Um everyone has a a loved one that's worth protecting.

So I just want to say thank you so much for the work that you've been doing.

Um I have been at a series of panels, not only hosted by moms and action, but the coalition of Protect Minnesota has built over the time.

Um we are also you know committed and dedicated to making sure that this shows up in our legislative agenda to ensure that our values are also matching, like the fight that's happening at the state level as well, and there's any ways that we can partner, whether it's our showing up to our office hours or showing up to um our um community conversations that we're having, you know.

Please um, you know, I just want to say appreciate your your partnership.

So with that, um, we also um are coming to a close here.

Um, I want to just reiterate, you know, right before we end that there's also resources and materials that's been dispersed to all of us.

I'm committed to ensuring that that's always gonna be in my newsletter, um, which goes out monthly.

Uh, we can you know have conversations of what it looks like maybe using our city council-wide um communications, um, um, those materials to be dispersed through the at social media as well.

Um, but again, thank you, Kathleen, so much for your time and also thank you, Gretchen, for always being a champion and just making sure that we get these resources in front of us.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Have a wonderful day.

Take care.

So in closing, um, I just wanted to highlight uh we have five more public safety committee meetings at the end of this year or for the rest of this year.

Uh I just wanted to just like highlight assistant mayor Schumacher and also assistant mayor baker, has been phenomenal making sure we get topics, but if there's topics that's led by um either a vice chair, even um other council members that you want to use this time to explore either external partners or um some programs that's happening in the city, please let me know.

Uh we would like to get that ahead of time, at least have a month notice on that.

So, but again, thank you so much for your participation, everyone.

Okay, we are adjoined.

Yeah, yeah, you want to let us know.