Roll call, please.

Perfect.

Board members Johnson.

Coleman.

Kim here.

Naker.

Here.

Yang.

Here.

Oohie?

Here.

Cheer Joe's.

Cheer.

Seven present.

No absent.

Item number one, approving the minutes of the May 6, 2026 library board minutes.

Great.

So I will take a motion from Councilmember Kim to approve the uh minutes.

Is there any discussion?

Seeing none, all those in favor say aye.

Aye.

Aye.

All those opposed.

Item number two, authorizing the same.

Oh, sorry.

Thank you.

Seven in favor, none opposed.

The minutes are approved.

Yes, perfect.

Um item number two, authorizing the St.

Paul Public Library Agency to accept three thousand one hundred and fifty thousand.

Three million hundred and fifty thousand from the Department of Housing and Urban Development for Hayden Heights Library Reconstruction Project.

Amending the 2026 St.

Paul Public Library budget.

Great.

So uh a lot all the items on our discussion today are gonna be accepting money, which is really exciting.

So this is money coming forward um for the Hayden Heights Library Reconstruction Project.

Uh I'll take a motion from um Council Vice President Yang to approve this item.

Is there any discussion?

Council Vice President Yang.

Thank you, Chair Joe.

I'm very supportive of this item and just wanted to share that I go past the library every day.

It's really exciting and fun to just see the daily changes to it.

It's currently wrapped all around with very heavy duty, I'm sure plastic wrap even and and making it through during the rain.

And so again, I can't wait to see the many phases of the work and see it come go to the go to the finish line.

Thank you.

Awesome.

Thank you.

Any other discussion?

All right.

Um all those in favor say aye.

Aye.

Aye.

All those opposed.

Seven in favor and unopposed.

Item is adopted.

Item number three, accepting the gift of five hundred and eighty thousand.

Oh, thank you.

Um item number three is resolution in public hearing twenty-six-one twenty-nine, accepting the gift of five hundred and eighty thousand four hundred and sixty-one dollars from the friends of the St.

Paul Public Library and amending the library's twenty twenty-six financing and spending plans.

So this is really exciting.

Uh thank you to the friends for uh this for this money.

Um, we'll give you a round of applause.

This is really um exciting to see and a big deal, and we appreciate your partnership and all all of your effort um to help support the library.

Uh with that, I'll take a motion from Councilmember Coleman to approve this item.

Is there any discussion?

Councilmember Johnson.

Thank you.

I um just a quick clarification.

If it's a is there a public hearing attached to that?

There is a public hearing.

So I just would flag the the last two, I think.

Yes, okay.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay.

Let's go back to let's see.

Then I think we can go back to the previous one.

Um so can you read number two again?

Council agenda.

Yeah, but there's a public hearing here today.

So I was supposed to read that.

Yes.

It's okay.

Um, resolution public hearing twenty-six-93, authorizing the St.

Paul Public Library Agency to accept three million one hundred and fifty thousand dollars from the Department of Housing and Urban Development for Hayden Heights Library Reconstruction Project and amending the two thousand twenty-six St.

Paul Public Library budget.

Okay, thank you, thank you, Councilmember Johnson.

This is supposed to have a public hearing, so um, if you're here to speak on this item, this is your public hearing.

Is there anyone here to speak on this item?

All right.

With that being said, um, we'll do this again.

Uh make a motion.

Uh here a motion from Council Vice President Yang to close the public hearing and approve this item.

All in favor say aye.

I all those opposed.

Seven in favor, zero opposed.

The item is approved.

And I guess we're still on item three.

Um, and this is also a public hearing.

So if there's anyone here to speak on this item, now is your chance.

Seeing none, um, I'll take a motion from Councilmember Johnson to um close the public hearing and approve.

Is there any discussion?

All those in favor say aye.

Aye.

Aye.

All those opposed.

Seven in favor and unopposed, the item is adopted.

Item four resolution 26-918 authorizing the public library agency to accept Minnesota Department of Education grant funds in the amount of 250,000 to support reconstruction of the Riverview Library and record a property declaration related there too.

Um, so this item sound does not have a public hearing, but um this item is also accepting money, and this one's for the Riverview Library.

I'll take a motion from Council um President Maker to approve this item.

Is there any discussion?

All those in favor say aye.

Aye.

All those opposed.

Seven in favor, none opposed.

The item is adopted.

Uh item number five is staff report 26-98 Rondo Community Library update.

Awesome, great.

Um, so we've got uh Rebecca Ryan and Marlena Okechuko here to give us a presentation updating us on the Rondo Library project.

Welcome.

Thank you, Chair Jills.

Thank you, council members.

As uh Chair Joels said, I'm Rebecca Ryan.

I'm the deputy director for public services, and this is my colleague, Marlena Okechuku, I'm a public services manager for the library.

Sorry, lost my presentation on the desktop here for just a moment.

Um so this presentation is um going to walk us through just a current brief update about um the community engagement process that we did.

Um, some show some updated building plans and talk about some update um upcoming events.

So um just reiterating uh our first kind of project happening at Rondo was the initial funding of the $793,000 that was allocated by the city in the 2025 budget from the state public safety aids specifically for a safety focused renovation of the entryway.

Um we have taken advantage of this closure to um pursue our transforming libraries um initiatives, the tech rich spaces and then the play and learn spaces at Rondo at the same time.

And we have also received a $500,000 um State Department of Education grant for multi-purpose community centers that will support upgrades to our meeting room and study rooms.

So it is a complex project in that three things are happening at once, and so the safety and meeting room improvement project pieces have gone to bid.

We have awarded the bid, and they are under um we are currently in the process of contracting with the firm.

So hopefully by our upcoming community engagement session, um, we'll be able to say who that firm was.

I do want you to know that the play and learn construction bed will be coming out later in June.

So that's just for a much smaller piece of this project that's specifically focused on play and learn improvements to the Rondo space.

Well, I was just gonna add, um, before we'll go to Councilman Blue for question, the play and learn is part of the transforming libraries.

Um, and it's also my understanding that that's still everything will still be staying on schedule, even with doing an ad project at the same time.

Yes.

Thank you.

Council, uh, Vice Chair Bowie.

Uh uh, thank you, Chair Jills.

Um, thank you so much, Rebecca.

I just have a question about the play and learn, um, and I appreciate um asking and making sure it's still within timeline.

Can you point to where like the map of like exactly where the play and learn will take place or is that the play and learn is going to be, you know, including all the space or the specific um site inside of the library.

Chair Joe, Councilmember Bowie, I have an updated um schematic of the floor plan that I can do a better job that of pointing that out to you later in the program, but it is essentially where the children's area is right now.

Okay, so it will remain there.

Yes.

It would not be relocated.

Okay, yes.

Thank you.

I can go back.

Is this members?

Listen, me.

Okay, I'm turning it over to Marlena.

So I'm gonna actually go back one.

Thank you, uh Rebecca.

Um, so I'm gonna talk a little bit about the engagement side and how we ensure that Rondo community members and staff um had a real voice in the renovation project.

So um, like uh Rebecca mentioned, uh, we engaged around these three areas, these three key areas.

So some updates to the entryway, our tech-rich spaces, and in our play and learned um spaces.

So for the entryway updates, um, we focused on creating a larger and more welcoming entrance and marketplace.

So you can see in the purple, sort of like where the marketplace will be, but that's sort of like what we think of as like the core of the library, so where you'll pick up your holds where there might be casual seating where folks can kind of just hang out in the library, um, make copies and things like that.

Um, we also um engaged around the tech rich spaces, so expanding our community meeting spaces with updated audio and video equipment, and then also um as Rebecca touched on the plan learn updates.

So it's basically an expansion and refreshing of the children's spaces that incorporate early learning opportunities and play directly into design elements.

So some highlights for you and what we um how we engage.

So we use multiple methods to collect feedback and engage our our community and our staff.

We emailed, sorry about that.

We emailed Tech Rich questions um to 1500 Rondo community meeting room users.

So we just went back through our logs and folks that use the meeting rooms over a period of time.

We emailed them directly with the questions.

Um we currently regularly email more than 5,500 Rondo community patrons with project updates and invitations to provide feedback and to attend events.

So those are folks that are just on our regular newsletter list.

Um we hosted four coffee and community sessions, specifically focusing on library programs and our space updates.

We hosted three um focus groups with Rondo elders and some of our homework center families, and then we also hosted three staff input sessions, and we also collected long form surveys from the community.

We received over 250 responses to the long-form uh community surveys.

Um, and this is one of the ways that we engaged folks directly in the library spaces.

So this is a poster board that has some pictures of various types of study room configurations, and community members and staff were able to just dot vote, like a simple dot vote on what they wanted to see in the spaces.

So everything from the style of chairs that they thought would be comfortable to how many chairs would be in a study room space or how large a table would be, or how many people could sit at a table comfortably.

And as you can see, we got a lot of feedback directly from staff and community um on those dot surveys.

And then I think I'm gonna pass it back over to Rebecca for what we heard.

So these are some uh general updates about what we heard from community when we were specifically asking about pieces of this with the entrance.

They really people really wanted to make the space feel like a library exactly when you walk in the door.

So there's books, there's calm colors.

We heard a lot about wayfinding.

We know Rondo is a large space, and if you're coming for a meeting room, that's at the opposite end of the library.

Uh people just really wanted a better way to know where they're supposed to go, what they're supposed to do.

Um, restroom changes, lots of thoughts about keys, lots of thoughts about wait times, and then quiet space additions.

We've um had requests for prayer space, for lactation space for just simply quiet space, and so and flexible spaces to accommodate um the needs above.

So we have updated study spaces for individuals and small groups, which has um been a constant request at Rondo over the years, and again, wayfinding for meeting rooms for holds pickup and more.

Clarity on those public space guidelines.

And then some of the feedback that we incorporated into the updated plans from staff, we changed the location and the number of single style restrooms.

We are moving towards a multi-style approach for Rondo, but there are some specific family restrooms, and we changed the location so that they are directly near the children's area.

We added an outer kind of restroom door on the entrance to the multi-style restrooms in response to some tech rich survey feedback.

We added a storage closet in one of our meeting rooms, and we took away an operable law that really wasn't providing the kind of privacy and soundproofing that people were looking for.

We heard a lot about easy-to-use monitors and flexible tables and lightweight chairs, and so we're really excited to provide those updates in most of our meeting rooms.

And we will also include easy access to cleaning supplies.

In response to our family survey, we'll the Rondo children's area fortunately is big enough to accommodate Rondo parents requests for both active play and quiet reading opportunities in the children's area.

And generally, people were looking for greater separation between the children and adult areas of the library.

And we'll we um think we'll be able to accomplish this with this plan.

So just a few direct quotes on what we asked people and what they responded with from some of the long form surveys, and I won't read those aloud.

Um and as I mentioned, this is uh the updated floor plan.

And so we've taken the opportunity to just move the teen area to make some changes to where the restrooms are located, to add study rooms and quiet rooms, to increase visibility and specificity of the things that you can do in the lobby, in the kind of like that library hub area, and then in the light green where it says children and homework, that it will essentially remain the play and learn space and the homework center and meeting room next to it will be incorporated.

They will remain the same.

Um, just some updated drawings of what the lobby is set to kind of be designed to look like.

Study rooms, and lastly, some timelines.

As I said, we have awarded the construction bid.

We are on track to be reopened at Dalen University in late 2026, and we do have a plan to include a public art project.

It will likely be a mural or a wall covering in the lobby, and um we will work on a call for artists later for later in the summer.

I'll turn it over to you for upcoming programs.

Cool, sure.

So we're hosting the community update session next Tuesday, June 9th, and that'll be from 5 to 6 30 in Club Room C, which is um actually adjacent to the library space or the space that we're using for the actual library at um Halley Q Brown.

And then we have a partnership with Springboard for the Arts where we're hosting two artists at two different locations, two different locations, but we're hosting Brianna Williams at Rondo, and so she's gonna start her program her um is essentially an artist in residence program where she'll be connecting with Rondo elders and teens and trying to create connections through art and conversations and leading them through an art project.

So the first iteration of that series is scheduled for June 13th, 3 to 5 p.m.

And then we're gonna start our Rondo Legacy Through to Generations series, which I'm really excited about.

So again, it's a conversational style program that will span several months.

And what we're starting with is conversations with elders, and then we'll move through these series of conversations with um different age groups until we get to Rondo youth, and so the end result of that program is where we will have.

We will position folks to understand more about the history of Rondo and the elders and their connections to the community directly to the youth and how they've envisioned the future of Rondo and the work that they're doing in a community to project Rondo forward.

So super excited about that.

And the first iteration of that one is going to be Tuesday, June 23rd from 5:30 to 7:30, and we'll be starting that conversation with Frank White, who, oh goodness, I can't think of the name of his book, but um The Love of the Game.

Yes, thank you, love of the game.

Yes.

So he'll be talking about that.

And I'm sorry, Benny is going to be our facilitator, so Benny Roberts from the executive director of Halley Q Brown community center is I felt like he would be like that connective tissue for the program.

So he will be the person that is facilitating the conversation with each presenter throughout the series.

And then I'll just pause you for a second.

Council President Naker had a question.

Thanks, Chair Jost.

I'm asking for two young friends.

Are these intended to be for children as well as adults?

They are family friendly, yes.

Okay.

So I'm thinking, yeah, I think they are.

Yeah, they're family friendly.

I don't know if I would say that they're specifically for children, but could children could attend.

If that, okay.

All right.

And I think that concludes our presentation, and we are open for questions if there are any.

Any questions, comments?

Um, we'll go to Council President Naker and then Vice Booth.

Thanks, Chair Joe's.

Really excited to see this update.

Thank you so much for it.

Two questions.

You talked about putting out the bids for the plan learned space.

Um, I know that we have we have renovated plan learned spaces throughout libraries.

I'm wondering, is there a reason why we had to do a separate bid for this one rather than using the contractor we've been using?

Um that's one question, and then on the lobby picture, I'm wondering.

Um, obviously, I assume that that's kind of from um from Dale looking in.

So it looks a lot different than the lobby now.

Um, obviously, wondering is there any sort of security presence desk, anything before you get to the desk that we're seeing pictured there.

We've been talking a lot about what is the both the welcome and kind of wayfinding that you get when you walk into the library.

This um picture doesn't do a great job of um showing you, but the uh current rondo desk will be much closer to the entryway.

Um, and so what we're looking for for our safety specialists, our number one budget priority, is um a continued roaming and interactive presence, so not necessarily someone that like greets you right when you walk in the door.

Um, we're expecting staff and others to do that.

It could be the safety specialist, but our focus for them is to really move throughout the space, and then the question about the the bidding.

Contracts.

Um, we with this play and learn through the transforming libraries, we've really updated the vision for what that could be in our spaces, and um we were um I think it's okay if I say we were planning on doing Sunray first, um, but the opportunity to work on Rondo when um it's closed was one that we couldn't pass up, and so we do have um we didn't use like a specific contractor before when we did play and learn.

Um, so we will be bidding.

They will be much um smaller changes and improvements than for example the safety improvements to the entryway and the bathrooms, and then just as a quick follow-up, do we intend to use the same contractor then on all transforming libraries play and learn spaces going forward, or does that need to be a new bidding process each time?

Um, I believe we intend to use it for Rondo and Sunray, and I can get back to you.

And I don't I don't know what our plan is going forward there, and I can get back to you.

All right, and then um I think Vice Chair, we had the question.

Yes, thank you, Chair Joseph.

Thank you so much um for the presentation.

I just want to just reiterate, I appreciate this um comprehensive um update, and you know, there's been multiple series and mods full of touch points along the way and been very transparent in terms of like what the plan is, and also um engaging not only my office, but really engaging you know, Rondo elders.

To that point.

Um, you know, I'm excited to um hear more and learn more out of the community update.

Um, but just in terms of like the engagement process, I'm just wondering was there any questions related to safety?

Um, because one of from my observation, when you're asking a question around welcoming, do you feel welcomed?

It's a different type of question.

If you when you walk in, are you safe?

Do you see, like when you're bringing your kids here?

You know, what are the things that you know, um, what are the factors or the dynamics that are at play that makes you feel like this is a safe place versus a welcome place, which I think you know, really culturally can be very different, um, is really important that we prioritize people being welcomed, but just understanding that the dollars that was um dedicated to this renovation was safety related, very specific to some of the safety concerns that we have seen across not only that corridor, but um in major cities across the country, you know, dealing with our fit and all process and dealing with our unsheltered communities.

Um, I'm just pretty I'm just curious around just like the questions and engagement, um, where they centered around just some of the the dynamics and issues that we've seen, and also if um teens and impacted communities have been involved.

Um, I do think understanding that you know this is a historic neighborhood, it's called the Rondo community, it's very driven and um collaborative with many of our Rondo leaders and elders.

Um, but when you go into you know Rondo and for myself as a council member, I spent majority of my youth at Rondo Library.

I'm just curious to know, like, has there been any coffee conversations that were centered more so around like the young people, the youth, and also those who are unsheltered.

We um had boards posted at Rondo at HellAQ throughout our community engagement process.

Um, we did engage with um the youth that were coming into the library at the space.

We didn't specifically do a teen engagement session.

Um we did um, I'm trying to think of how to explain it.

I wouldn't say that you know, unsheltered folks are in the library with us always, and um we wouldn't necessarily have singled them out, um, but they would be included in the various methods that we engaged people, perhaps not through email, but definitely um we made sure to have both kind of boards presenting potential designs and surveys in the space, as well as being able to attend any of the coffee and conversations, which my experience with those was that they were pretty multi-generational audience that attended those, despite having coffee in the name.

So, and then what I would say about safety is um I will double check.

I'm pretty sure we asked a safety question in the long form survey.

And um, with that's we heard it throughout the feedback throughout the you know, when I have to wait for the bathroom, and I'm not sure what I'm gonna walk into from the person who was there before me.

When I'm not sure when I can't see what I'm walking out of the building into, what um actually I think Alex was telling me that one of our regular youth submitted a survey that talked about sometimes I don't want to sit by grisly adults, is I believe the phrase they used on the computers, and so it is um I you see it in the ways that parents are like we want to greater separation between children and adult spaces.

Um we want the community agreements for how to act in our public space to be really clear and really fairly enforced across everyone in the library, for example.

So we definitely heard about safety throughout this survey, and um uh is presented in the changes and the space updates that we've made.

Um, I don't know if it's it's kind of hard to see on this photo.

There's a really small blue meeting room near sort of like the library hub area, and is sort of an adjacent to the very large meeting room that will have glass on both sides.

That was, and so when you were walking in and out of Rondo, you will be able to see through that meeting room.

We specifically won't have shades.

So you can see what's happening outside on the street in a way that you weren't always able to before.

So that's and then it's also a great place, for example, our mental health professional may want to meet with someone in a pretty visible um place that you don't have to travel very far into the library to access.

I just had a quick follow-up too.

I um you know, I definitely appreciate it.

I know this is a is a really large undertaking in terms of you know, with a limited amount of money in a very limited scope, you know, what we can do.

Um, I'm just uh, you know, there's a lot of conversations in the public in terms of you know, once the library is reopened, you know, the measurement is going to be like has the conditions have changed, and understanding that the physical structure of this um library is not gonna change the community dynamics and the kind of lived experience that many of our residents are um going through in that neighborhood.

But I've just wanted to uh reiterate understanding that you know it's very limited, but that as we're thinking about the design, you know, what are spaces that we can actually have that are one trauma informed spaces?

Uh, what are spaces that we can have as resources for whether it's the county or um the state, or when we think about, you know, someone wants to talk with their case worker or get some type of resources, understanding that that's an integral part of our community now, right?

To ensure that those resources are available at Rondo, it being, you know, uh um a very uh accessible, you know, intersection.

Um, you know, I'm just uh I I like the idea in terms of making sure like it's vibrant and visible and the windows and we have more technology.

I think that's amazing, but I also want to make sure that a person who may be struggling in the same way that we've seen them struggle in the past, if they walk through those doors, what is the culture and what is the um support systems there?

And that does not exist at Rondo, what are like what are like the staffing or the navigators to help redirect someone to get that type of support?

Just because it's been a really public conversation in terms of what is the intended purpose of the library, and I think you know you're really capturing that well in terms of like how do you know it's a library when walk in, right?

You see books, you see staff, um, but if someone's coming in just looking for help, what are what is the redirection or the staffing or the the space for them to get that?

Um because I think some of the things, and I'll just say this last part, the beautiful idea in terms of lactation, a credible idea in terms of having a praying room because we want to make sure that we you know are inviting to all of our community members, but I just would not want that to be um, I wouldn't want those spaces to be compromised if we're not able to actually manage, you know, um, and I want to make sure if someone comes in that they feel safe enough to, you know, like use a lactation room, right?

That they do feel safe enough to pray, and that um there's not other behavior that's going on in those spaces that we did not intend to, but we also want to make sure we're intentional about preventing.

Um council member Bowie, I think you just really stated um what is both beautiful and really difficult sometimes about running a public space that is pretty low barrier for most people, and um in the ways that we need to be responsive to the people walking in the door, and the ways that we need to be in some cases quite firm and clear with what the boundaries of our library service actually are.

What is what is our job to help somebody access all the referrals in the world?

Are we going to be able to treat their mental health crisis on the spot?

We are not, and so then the question becomes: if that's happening, what what are we doing to engage with it?

And Director Hartman has been, I think, continuing to talk about this with her colleagues at the city and at the county.

As you mentioned, there's lots of resources out there, and If any city or county has figured out the perfect way to get people the help they need when they need it, I would love to talk to them about that, but it's still what boundaries are you holding and how are you holding them?

Is it ongoing conversation that frankly we've always had at Rondo and we'll keep having.

We've always had folks coming in with their case workers looking for a quiet place to meet, and I'm excited that we'll be able to actually give that to them in a way that seems private and not like their business is kind of on display.

And what are the limits of our library services?

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair, and I appreciate the presentation as well.

I'm just kind of taking in the information.

I also appreciate the response level two of the engagement efforts that you all have taken on.

I was just wondering, and for my own clarification, for the safety specialists and I guess the service desk.

I know you mentioned the lobby picture that it wasn't as far back, I don't think, as what the image shows.

I'm also looking at the floor plan though, and just seeing it like a little bit further back than right at the entry because you just specify a little bit about where they will be.

And I only asked that question because I think one of the issues in the entryway, from my understanding, too, is that you know, people could go to the restroom before really ever coming to the front desk.

And this image, it also looks like some folks could get access to the small adjacent meeting room without it as well.

And so I'm just wondering, like, you know, um, I hear you with the it'll be you can actually see from the outside in what's actually happening, but you don't have to go into the library very far.

It doesn't look like it on the site plan because looking where the doors are, it's pretty much right by the entry lobby.

Could you just share a little bit about like how far in the library would I have to go before I come in contact with this the library staff person or safety specialist?

Um this mostly they will be positioned at the service desk, which is quite a bit closer.

Um, the old service desk was more like um, let's see if I can where this area is.

We've moved it quite a bit closer to the door, and we have some conversations to have with staff about that proactive welcome into the space.

Um, you won't be able to walk into this room, our meeting rooms are default locked, and you need to have a reservation.

So you will need to come and interact with staff if you want to use that room, if you've had a reservation or you want to make one, you know, for an upcoming time.

So it won't be uh an open space.

Um what I'm excited about is we're um planning to move our checkout uh right here, basically where the bathrooms used to be, and our holds pick up and like lucky day items will be right there in the lobby.

So there will be quite a bit more library traffic just doing their kind of regular business right in the entryway that I think gives you a different vibe when you enter the space.

Okay, I guess as a follow-up to your one thing I would just share is that um I'm I would very I would probably recommend just kind of checking monitoring that.

I know, like in on our ward, when you walk into Sunway Library, you're literally walking straight into the front desk with Dayton's Bluffs Library.

It's kind of the same with the model at hand.

Um, even if you're walking in, you're kind of you won't you won't get too far without even contact with anyone, and just thinking about like whether or not um some of the safety specialists would have to even to I think direct someone differently, maybe from then making a direct walkway path right into the children and homework area.

I just would just share that as like a feedback of my initial thoughts is you know, you're gonna have adults moving in through the library hub way.

Um, the first thing that they will see when they walk in, is like in the back is the children in homework area, too.

And so just if there is any sort of interventions that might want to interact with staff yeah quicker.

Yeah I I I think that's a good point.

I've had that thought too in the rendering that they've showed it's it's it's it does seem like it's further away than it is and looking at this it's hard for me to tell if this is to scale and um exactly where they're at but it looks like you know the width of a couple of those service desks before you get to the entrance.

So maybe we're talking like 15 or 20 feet.

I'm not sure.

But I think that that will be helpful when we when if there were a scale set of these drawings or when we actually see the space to see what that feels like.

And and you know I guess the question would be are is there an opportunity for any kind of adjustment if needed if we do think there's it because it I here feel like I hear what you're saying is there too much open space between when you walk in and when you get to the desk that might be not or I don't know causing problems or just maybe not exactly um what is working well uh in in the space.