All right.

The January 9th, 2026 meeting of the St.

Paul Planning Commission will now come to order.

Our first order of business is approval of the minutes from November 14th and November 5th, 2025.

Do I have a motion?

Oh.

Moved by Commissioner Holt and seconded by Commissioner Riley.

Is there any discussion on the motion?

All right.

Seeing none, we'll now move forward with the vote.

All those in favor?

All those opposed.

Any abstentions?

All right, the minutes pass.

Next up is chair's announcements.

I don't know how to do the two pieces of business we have.

So we'll start with the obvious one.

It's been a really sad, challenging week.

I'm really excited and proud that we're all here.

Everybody came into business when everything is so hard.

So I'm just really thankful for all of you.

And then related to that, um, Commissioner Martinson passed out some literature.

It's not part of official business, um, but we did he is allowed to just pass it out.

We appreciate him taking the time to do that.

Um I don't know how to do this transition.

Um, but I would like to thank Commissioner Risberg for his time here at the planning commission.

Um his time will be wrapping up at the end of the month.

And there is an honorary resolution honoring is appreciation and the service as a planning commissioner.

So I'm gonna start reading a lot of whereas and thanks for you.

Um and I want to flag that uh Commissioner Homas was also um was really instrumental in getting the ball rolling on this.

Um and so even though he's not here at the moment, just want to um make sure that his the impetus for this was acknowledged and his time.

Um so an honorary resolution and appreciation of the service of planning commissioner Risberg.

Whereas the City of St.

Paul Planning Commission is charged with advising the mayor, city council, and city departments on matters related to land use zoning, comprehensive planning, and the orderly growth and development of the city, and whereas Commissioner Risberg has faithfully served as a member and officer of the St.

Paul Planning Commission since 2017, dedicating his time, expertise, and thoughtful judgment to the review of complex planning, zoning and development matters.

And whereas Commissioner Risberg chaired the transportation committee, a subcommittee of the planning commission through many projects, including the Summit Avenue Regional Trail Plan and the St.

Paul Bike Plan update.

And whereas Commissioner Risberg worked to improve the complete streets aspect of these projects to encourage Transportation Committee members to speak their voices on these important issues.

Whereas throughout his tenure, Commissioner Risberg demonstrated a commitment to empowering his fellow commissioners to speak their voices to public service to careful deliberation and the long-term well-being of St.

Paul's neighborhoods, residents, and businesses.

And whereas Commissioner Risberg service contributed to the transparent decision-making, meaningful public engagement and the advancement of the city's planning and transportation goals and adopted policies.

Now, therefore, be it resolved that the St.

Paul Planning Commission hereby expresses its sincere appreciation and gratitude to Commissioner Risberg for his dedicated service and valuable contributions to the planning commission and the city of St.

Paul.

You're here.

Wonderful to be able to contribute a bit to this city and be a part of this great commission.

And it keeps getting better, I swear year after year.

And I think we're in the city's in great hands with the commission that we have and uh the staff that we have.

And I'm um just so proud to have been a part of it.

And it's been uh a great experience.

So thank you.

And um I I should put a point out that the Transportation Committee has also um shown a lot of a lot of growth um over the last several years with some really good people, uh, citizen members, and that that works really well, whether it continues with this commission or not.

in great hands with the commission that we have and uh the staff that we have and I'm um just so proud to have been a part of it and it's been uh a great experience so thank you and um I I should put a point out that the Transportation Committee has also um shown a lot of a lot of growth um over the last several years with some really good people um citizen members and that that works really well whether it continues with this commission or not but um it's really been a great experience leading that effort so well thank you anyway so thank you and this will be available after the meeting I've got a copy please oh thanks okay thanks Bill pointed out that we should actually vote on it uh so uh I've read uh the honorary resolution um is there I'll make the motion in this in this case is there a second second second by commissioner starling is there any discussion on the motion thank you for your time and your guidance thank you thank you so much all right seeing no more discussion move uh to vote all those in favor uh all those post any abstentions abstain uh thank you commissioner risburg we really appreciate you thanks and we're gonna hold um planning directors and outputs just to the end so that we can move forward with the zerning committee business if folks are all right with that all right I'm gonna give Simon just a moment to pull his items up because he didn't know okay so um we have two items on the agenda today um the first of those is 42 Water Street uh C UP that is an additional use permits to allow for to increase the liable building heights 75 feet from uh a maximum 50 and I believe it's to enable a packing ramp.

So I don't think I was at this one but um the motion coming out committee is to adopt the staff recommendation to approve a condition use permit to increase level building height from 50 to 75 feet 42 more street west.

All right thank you so we have um the motion is there discussion on this motion all right seeing none we'll move forward with the vote all those in favor all those opposed any abstentions all right the item passes our next ice cream is um 500 broadway rezoning um and that says uh on ed res uh triple 200 2025 that's to rezone four parcels that the currently reserved currently zoned I1 light industrial to B5 central business service district that's at 500 Broadway streets um that is to enable the mixed use uh residential developments thank you and the emotion coming out of zoning committee was unanimous approval for three zero move is to adopt the staff recommendation to approve rezoning of four I1 parcels to B5.

All right thank you is there any uh that's the motion coming out of committee is there any discussion on this I have one question which is um I've looked at the map of this area and obviously that's a huge swathe of you know I one and then connecting to I2 further off there's there's sort of B B5 sort of across the way there's one B5 next this parcel it feels like this is an area in transition and I'm kind of curious about why the B5 zoning versus say like a T district or something like that and or and then also whether the whether the department is considering sort of a broader rezoning study for that area if it really is moving away from you know a bunch of warehouses and other such things um we'll have Bill Germany come up and comment on it from the staff reflective I will say this was part of the conversation at zoning committee as well.

If someone wants to wants to wants to summarize the conversation that'd be great too I would love to I'd be glad to answer your questions thank you um Chair Commissioner.

The uh the rezoning to B5 is what they applied for certainly T District could have been an option as well but this is adjacent to downtown the B5 uh intent statement is meant to be sort of a um edge of downtown supportive service for downtown so it's appropriate for that um we have not uh launched a zoning study we could here and in other places uh as you know it's an area of transition and that it's mostly industrial today um but the comprehensive plan calls for it to be mixed use this portion at least the southern part of that industrial area um we have just by uh by default at least um taking the approach that it would be a um uh market based transition when people want to transition they would come and rezoned certainly could be an option to do a a zoning study in advance this isn't the only area in the city where we have this it's uh that is an approach we could take we just haven't got it thank you so many appreciate it yeah I'm thinking very much of sorry just advantage I'm thinking very much of sort of you know avoiding acting as having to come for these sorts of things if we have you know already done this en masse all right um I'm gonna do Commissioner Riley and then the director has a comment yeah just a comment uh um commissioner tagyas question um I think that um the what I'll call the nice thing about this B5 zoning district uh which is unique among all of the districts is that it allows for a different mix of um of

All right, um, I'm gonna do Commissioner Riley and then the director has a comment.

Yeah, just a comment to um Commissioner Tagia's question.

Um, I think that um the what I'll call the nice thing about this B5 zoning district, uh, which is unique among all of the districts is that it allows for a different mix of um of uses than uh uh traditional neighborhood T zoning would um in a way that is probably more effective for a number of the city's comprehensive goals plan goals, even though they're not listed in the very nice and brief staff report, including um reducing vehicles miles travel because of the services that are allowed to be established there where people wouldn't have to then drive or take a bus somewhere to get to work.

Um it allows for both housing and jobs on high, you know, high density um manner in a way that not the T districts don't do as effectively, and that often the T districts require an applicant to come back here as well.

So I was both gratified um and appreciative of this particular approach, this despite or in uh in addition to the very short and brief staff report, which was quite effective.

So I just want to say that.

So thanks.

All right, uh, is there any more discussion on that?

All right, being oh, sorry.

It's okay.

Thank you, Chair.

Just wanted to put a note out that uh speaking of rezonings, um in one of the next few meetings.

I'm gonna bring a little list of uh 2026 work plan items that were includes uh a good amount of rezonings, I think.

Um and in a in a way that we have not done them before.

Sorry, so carefully what you wish for.

Um all right, uh with that then um seeing no additional discussion, uh we'll move toward with the vote.

All those in favor?

All those opposed.

Any abstentions?

All right, uh the item passes.

I think our next meeting is on the 15th.

Next meeting zoning committee is on the 15th.

Thank you so much.

Um next up is conference of the neighborhood planning committee.

Good morning, everyone.

Uh conference of the neighborhood planning committee did not meet.

Our meeting scheduled for the 14th is canceled.

So our next meeting is the 28th.

That's it for CNCP.

All right.

So please transportation committee.

Well, um, I was not present on the January 5th meeting.

Um but um Commissioner Homas is now the new chair of the transportation committee.

Um able to provide a report on that meeting, but the next meeting um I understand is February 2nd.

So and then an agenda has not been yet uh determined.

So that's all I know.

Can I speak to the February 2nd agenda just to give a heads up to folks?

Uh one of the items on the agenda is going to be the uh bronze line, locally preferred alternative update, which is one of those rare items that will come from the transportation committee to the planning commission.

So that'll come uh to this body in uh February as well.

So thank you, Ms.

Germany.

Uh Commissioner She point of clarification, bronze line formerly known as purple.

That is great.

That is great.

That is purple.

Normally known as rush line.

Right.

Only when it's built with that reference.

Yeah.

Okay, let's not make the minutes hard for uh okay.

Uh and no one else was Commissioner Riley.

Yes, I'm still sorry.

Um no one else was present at the transportation committee meeting on the fifth.

Were you okay?

All right.

Um all right, make me ask a question about the trans.

Maybe Mr.

Germany can the answer question about the transportation.

We are on the transportation committee.

I'm I'm just curious about what the ultimate disposition of that um committee's discussion around um the uh Earl slash Forest likely ended up being, but we received Mr.

Singer's very well expressed letter.

And I believe they discussed that twice since we last met.

Um Chair uh Commissioner Riley, I I regret that I don't know at this point how it turned out.

They uh the committee, as Commissioner Risberg knows he was involved in the first uh conversation on that, they were planning to pass a resolution um stating their uh their opinion.

But I don't know how it turned out.

Thank you.

Yeah, I'm not aware either.

Um but um they made me doing a resolution, but uh I thought it was gonna be more in terms of formal comments to uh how it works, but maybe a resolution.

All right.

Um I talked the director mentioned we can get an update on on those items.

So we'll maybe get a more comprehensive transportation update at our next regular meeting.

And if they do decide to do a resolution, it would be nice to have it come to us too.

I would agree.

If it's if it can come to us, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um that was transportation.

Um communications and nominations.

Nothing to report.

Um communications and nominations committees.

All right.

And um I'm gonna hold our comments.

I think our bylaws have us doing an annual meeting at some point coming up here where we would do elections of things, but um, because the director has a variety of announcements.

I think I'll just save any comments on that for her.

Um next up is task force liaison reports, old business.

And then we're just gonna move the planning director's announcements down here around new business.

Thank you, everybody.

Um yesterday I sent out an email update the ordinance change related to uh the planning commission was passed unanimously by the council on Wednesday.

Um wasn't a lot of discussion.

I think um, you know, all of the the testimony that was provided um made a lot of sense to them that you know uh that a lot is asked of the commissioners time, and um that there's definitely uh point where modernization uh you know needs to happen periodically.

So um so that was great.

Um comes with a lot of change.

So just wanted to let you know that you know we're gonna be bringing um new bylaws for the commission to consider that kind of aligns with the new newer structure.

Uh the city attorney is reviewing those now.

Um and obviously you can make changes to those, but I wanted to give you, you know, kind of what I thought was was like the you know, the the baseline of you know, like what clear concise bylaws would be, you know, me, I like to keep things to the point.

Um also there was uh so I'll I'll just go sort of um so the commission uh as proposed will be reduced from 21 to seven.

And so how how will we get there?

As I had sort of talked about before when I presented this, um, we'll just be kind of dwindling down through attrition this year.

So as people's terms and you know, they'll just roll off.

So something I'll do is I'll email uh everybody and just let you know kind of like what what to expect uh there for the schedule.

Um we will be moving to council chambers.

Um this I think that this don't quote me on this, but I think this will go into effect on February 20th.

So I have council chambers reserved on February 20th.

Um it will be a huge help to staff because we won't have to move tables around, won't have to hope that the TV is there, we'll have audio, uh, we'll have you know tech support.

So it's gonna be um, I think a much better situation.

I think that you know the audience will be able to hear everything was something that um was really concerning for me that you know, like you're putting in all of this time and and discussion and staffs putting in work.

Um and it's really important that people understand the discussion and like can hear the discussion and can hear, you know, like and participate uh you know in the most basic way possible.

So um I'm really excited about that.

Um, because that was something that to me was really not acceptable.

Um, and I was reaching out, you know, to try to find every option that I could, but was just not coming, you know, coming up with any success.

So um accessibility is really important to me.

possible so um I'm really excited about that um because that was something that to me was really not acceptable um you know and I was reaching out you know to try to find every option that I could but was just not coming you know coming up with any success so um accessibility is really important to me um you know and and coming you know showing up to the community in like a professional way um so that's something I think that I'm I'm really excited about um especially after that day that the noise came out of the ceiling that was I think that was my breaking point um so uh that means that comprehensive and neighborhood planning committee will uh not occur anymore um so all of the business uh from uh CNPC and zoning committee will just come to the commission um so there will be options so uh the way it'll work which is how it works pretty much everywhere else uh is that you know just like zoning committee staff will bring a presentation there'll be a public hearing and the commission will be able to make a decision that day or if you need more information layover and staff can do that work it'll save that back and forth um and then everyone will get the same information at the same time which is also something that I think is extremely important that like everyone's on the same page you know with what the public testimony was what's in the record what was the discussion um for me it was really um strange to have different groups of commissioners kind of sequestered away from discussion like I think that that causes confusion um you know and and I saw that playing out like you are all like highly competent uh people who are paying attention and I saw like struggling so like to me that was a no that was a no go like not acceptable you know for like how we're how we're functioning and how we're serving the community um so that will be um I think that will be a really good change um transportation committee stays uh and uh we reduce the membership uh as you know the membership of the entire commission goes down so we'll only have one um working with public works to see if they want to you know become more involved or uh continue uh you know to like uh staff kind of in tandem with planning I think when transportation committee was uh conceived uh public works didn't have the staffing that it has today and so it's pretty typical uh you know for planning departments to absorb lots of things like that because we do public outreach we do transportation we do you know we're we do a lot of things so it makes sense that that ended up with us uh but I think having you know like a deep bench of staff you know like there to help can only do good so working on that um but you know there was a reduction there um we also changed the appointment responsibility uh from the chair to the mayor's office um that was confusing for for people um and the the mayor's office has a structure in place already to do appointments so um I think that will help us out a lot as well because I know the chair had a lot of uh you know felt a lot of responsibility uh maybe in a slightly negative way about how to evaluate people that they didn't know and uh make a decision like that so I and I you know agree that um you know there should be some standardization there um so we'll be working with the new administration to help them understand that um and then communications and nominations will also just be rolled in uh to the business um every you know the planning commission still has the ability to create subcommittees when they need them like it's normal for something sometimes like when there's a comp plan to have a subcommittee that like might need to hear things more frequently than the entire commission but that will still be up to you all to decide like when that's appropriate and then there was a few other things that we wanted to do first um so the other day we got a the the city updated its website which you may have seen if you look at the city's website uh I think it right now they're still working out some of the bugs um but another piece of transparency that's really important to me is that I want people to be able to know when public hearings are and what they're for so we're gonna create one page that has just a list of all the public hearings um because the website is confusing the granicus you know like matrix is confusing you know uh in government sometimes you have to like work with the tools that you're given but in this case I think we're gonna just create something that's like you

But another piece of transparency that's really important to me is that I want people to be able to know when public hearings are and what they're for.

So we're gonna create one page that has just a list of all the public hearings because the website is confusing the granicus you know like matrix is confusing you know uh in government sometimes you have to like work with the tools that you're given but in this case I think we're gonna just create something that's like here's where it is um you know we've heard a lot through all the various outreach that we do that people look at things online and people want to post you know like hey here's a page where you can find all of this information and that's how people have been sharing uh information lately so want to respond you know and like meet people where they're at in that respect um we also made a change to some other uh less uh lesser known things um the early notification system um is a uh a system I'm sure some of you are probably signed up for it where you get email notifications about different applications that come out um they have so the ENS notices uh different types of applications have different number of days that you have to put them out so uh we changed the subdivision specific only the subdivisions um to align with all of the other applications that we have so that we could speed up subdivision applications not something that really you ever have to deal with but just like a back office thing that um helps us out a lot um and that's that's pretty much it um I will again send out all the documents so that you have them um I will start reaching out to everybody about uh about like when terms are ending um but I think generally uh you know like we'll be there will be change but it's gonna be you know for the better you it's gonna be asking less time of you um and you'll only just have to show up twice a month and uh I think that will be uh a lot easier so that's my update um commissioner Martins uh thank you director for the updates on that I appreciate it I've got a couple did the couple of clarifying questions so uh so will will change in the subcommittees be instantaneous so hereafter or is there a date when this is going to take effect?

So it takes effect I think on uh February 20th so okay so this month's meetings are still on the agenda but yeah so we will make sure that you know where you need to be so until February 20th things are probably gonna stay the same you know uh February 20th we'll move to council chambers I think but I will make sure that you all know you know where you need to be uh but until then um you know there's there's no immediate change thank you another question being um and so if we do form committees do they have to be standing committees or can they be ad hoc committees that would be formed for a specific task and then it's all uh I think ad hoc yeah you know like that's it's normal for planning commissions to create you know different types of committees um I think standing committees aren't always necessary you know be big I think because of the structure of having 21 the committee the standing committees was like how they you know how they had decided to divvy up all of the business um but with seven you know it's it's a lot more manageable to have those conversations and you know if people want to start um you know a comp plan you know subcommittee ad hoc that's totally fine and and normal.

Okay thank you and then my last question so as we combine the work of the uh former uh the the subcommittees formerly known as committees um here in or in you know upstairs my my expectation is that our the length of our meetings may significantly increase and I don't know how that will my schedule's good but I'm guessing it might affect other people's abilities to participate um you know we've seen zoning committee meetings that had sometimes gone five hours I believe or something like that not exactly all so how how how will we handle that issue of the the workload.

So when we were, you know, when we were looking into this, we looked at length meeting lengths and looked at, you know, like how long does an average zoning committee meeting go, things like that.

Because we're saving time, we'll have more control over the agenda.

So the way that it's set up now, something goes to zoning committee, like so that the moment that we receive an application, the clock starts ticking.

We you know, do all of the back end processing that we have to do, gets assigned to a staffer, they start doing their research, they do a staff report, it goes to the zoning committee, you know, it gets noticed, it goes to the zoning committee, uh, zoning committee hears it, you know, they either send it to the planning commission or they lay it over.

So we'll be saving a lot of time, like in that at that committee step, where we'll have the ability.

I'll have the ability to say, hey, there's a hot button item on this agenda.

We're gonna we're gonna have just, you know, so I usually try to balance it with like a big and two smalls or two mediums and a small.

Okay.

So, you know, like because you know, technically we're only here till 11.

Um there's other options, you know, with times and dates of our meetings that I want to throw out there, but to me, you know, like I feel like it's more important to like get us out of this room and into a functional room.

Um, and you know, we can talk about dates and times later.

But if that's something that everyone's really interested in, you know, the the zoning committee uh time is also held in council chambers, which is Thursday afternoons.

So we so theoretically, if this was something that people wanted, you know, I could explore how we could do that, you know.

Um, I wanted to kind of start taking like the incremental changes.

So you weren't thrown, you know, kind of into a tailspin with things, but there's a lot of there's a lot more flexibility that we have now um to to be able to you know make things work a little bit more smoother.

There's always gonna be long, a random long meeting, you know, like you're always gonna get a lot of testimony about certain things.

Um, you know, and and we can plan for that.

Um, you know, and if it happens by surprise, which sometimes it could, um, we'll have more time on the clock to push something else out.

So um I think it will, you know, like overall give us a lot more flexibility and control over the agenda so that we won't have, you know, like I always felt really bad having uh having one item, you know, for planning commission, uh, where like you all have to come for like a five minute thing, but you know, I also don't want to be uh, you know, like putting filler on the on the agenda, you know, like I your time is important and I want it to be spent um, you know, using your brains, you know, for good, not for sitting listening to a presentation that's probably fine, but like not really getting you anything.

So I want what you're doing to be intentional uh and productive.

Um, we have the ability to control that.

Thank you.

That's really helpful.

Really helpful.

Commissioner Peggy, one question.

Just as a comment on that.

I mean, I think back, for example, to the um to the meeting we had on the um on the the hotel north of the Lun Stadium, which I've renamed Hotel La Calooza, um, where we did have to have essentially two, you know, a loan meeting at zoning committee and then a very messy and long meeting here.

And overall the time investment required of commissioners was approximately twice what it would have been, um, because of saying you know, the discussions were had essentially twice over.

And I think there was a lot of um it it was it was hard to kind of make that discussion make sense because of sort of the way you know the the number of subdiscussions that happened at committee were almost impossible to translate into planning commission and then you know, so it was dynamics like that, I think led to more longer meetings overall.

So I think that's that's one point.

And secondly, also when it's a long meeting, we tend to know because we get a whole bunch of letters.

So typically what we we uh we tend to have some some sense that there may be a lot of people to testify to give them there are signs.

I know yeah, before Ter Presley goes, yeah, I think that like the hour per case, like that was the rate that I was kind of thinking about was like at least for the folks that served on zoning committee, the number of hours per case I think will go down significantly.

Um, and I really can't state enough how valuable I think it will be for everybody to be in person when we have people testifying.

Like you can watch the videos, you can read them the pay, but I think being in the room hearing the conversation in real time is really valuable.

So I'm excited for everybody to have that.

Um I was well common than uh to ask a question.

So there's gonna be seven members, but I read that there's um maybe two at large.

So is that two in the seven or is it nine?

So there's seven regular members and then two alternates.

Oh, the two alternates.

Yes.

Yeah.

So the BZA has alternates.

I don't, I'm pretty sure that they do.

They're simply a um, and so uh the alternates can come in, you know, like if we're getting into the danger zone with quorum, you call the alternates in.

Um it's also kind of like I I think being an alternate might be like a you know, uh the gateway of like, you know, planning commission of like maybe some maybe somebody, you know, like who really wants to be involved, but you know, maybe isn't sure they could be an alternate and kind of get it get the flavor of it.

So like the the gateway drug of the planning commission a little bit.

I also think it works on the the flip side, which is if you're a commissioner and you are um you know, maybe not always available or don't always have like I I think there are options there.

Um I was an alternate on the Highland District Council and I was seated at every meeting that I ever went to because there was always a vacancy.

Um, but it was nice to sort of have that flexibility as well.

Um and it was a nice way to sort of ease my way into the the work of the board.

And then my other comment with the um with the change in the appointments in um in the mayor's office.

So um with the mayor having a new uh structure as well, will this go to that assistant mayor that's over the PED?

That's a good question.

I'm not totally sure.

I just met the new assistant mayor yesterday, and I think he's still figuring out what's going on.

Um so I'll I'll ask and see where the appointments from the mayor's office are coming from.

Um, you know, like the mayor's office is sort of thinking about the the staff and the roles a little bit differently.

Um before so in the previous administration, um the appointments um you know were from a staff, you know, and so um not sure if they're gonna keep it that way or what, but I can I can look into that.

Commissioner Hood, um Commissioner Starlin.

Thank you, Chairman.

Director, I saw that there were four appointees as assistant mayor.

Which one I I wasn't able to figure out which one oversees PED.

Uh Nick's Dumolyer.

Okay, all right.

Not Cedric, not former commissioner Cedric Mayor that no, not Cedric.

Cedric is in public safety.

Okay.

Public safety position.

Right.

Um, but it is very exciting that we have another former commissioner coming back to the study.

And what a strong commissioner.

Um, Commissioner Starling, I'm getting the real impression that I might have skipped you a few times based on people's faces.

So I gotta go.

Okay, so we did a starling, then Riley.

Um so thank you, madam chair.

I believe this is a question for the director in hearing the scheduling as someone who's been on zoning committee and had the privilege of several of the long public hearings and extensive public testimony.

And hearing you talk about the overall timing, which I hadn't put the pieces together, I would like to encourage you on the ones that either have extensive public testimony and hearing, or are just inherently gnarly conversations.

It sounds like you might be able to schedule a hearing and discussion separate from a vote, and just to separate out the hearing, and without saying, oh, we're laying this over because we need something different to just have the expectation on some of those to have that timeline so that there's the moment of let this all sink in, let me reflect on it, let me think about it before moving to.

Yeah, I mean, we'll have flexibility, you know.

Um, we'll be able to, you know, I'll be able to coordinate more with the chair and say, hey, here's some things that we've got coming up.

I forecast XYZ, here's my recommendation.

So, you know, when we're, you know, when we're racing against the clock, you know, it doesn't feel good.

You don't have options, you don't have the ability to say, hey, I think we need to hear the presentation, you know, and then you know, like so you'll have, you know, like as the commission, you'll have the ability uh, you know, to to slow things down a little bit if you think that there's an advantage to that, or every you know, conversely, if it's something, you know, that's like everyone agrees, slam dunk, just move it along.

So it'll give a lot more um a lot more flexibility.

If I might suggest given given the overall timing, perhaps it should be the assumption that things do take two meetings so that there's that reflection, and then when something is easy, when there's clearly not a lot of conversation of well, controversy, then the commission takes the motion like, you know, we're ready, let's do it today.

Yeah.

In that way, having something taking two conversations doesn't feel like, oh, what's wrong with it?

Why is this hard?

Well, you won't even need me for that.

Like you'll be able to do that.

You, you know, you all will make that decision.

Yeah.

You know, we we will give you the information and you will analyze it and you know, decide what you need to do.

So you won't even need me to schedule anything, you'll just be the deciders.

So yeah, and to that point, I think year to year, it feels different.

Like some years, it feels like it's 8020, we're 80 of them.

We all feel good about and are in and out, and we're we're feeling good and confident.

And 20% are the really gnarly ones.

I think we've had a really challenging year in 2025.

And I guess for our sake, but I hope that for 2026, we don't have the same proportion of challenging meetings that we we have had the last year.

But in in those situations, I fully I fully understand the impetus behind wanting two meetings.

Uh all right, Commissioner Holt.

Oh, yeah, I Commissioner by Commissioner Hall.

Um, I gotta keep my.

Thank you, Chair.

Uh I I have I only had two points, but now I had a third, thanks to Commissioner Starry Sterling's very thoughtful comment.

Um, and I'll try and be brief.

Um, one, we'll start with Commissioner Sterling.

I think I heartily endorse the suggestion of an assumption that all items that require a public hearing will take two meetings.

Because otherwise it sounds like we're just hearing from people to hear from them.

It does not engender a hey, this was a real valid public hearing at which your current concerns were heard, considered, and then the decision was made.

And given the shift in the time and the state law, now we are give we are essentially given back 15 days in which to have that considered, which is a gift of more than 15 days in measurement of appreciation.

So I I really appreciate your comment, Commissioner Sterling.

And having worked now for five municipalities in the state of Minnesota who are beholden to that rule, only one of whom held public hearings and made decisions on the exact same day.

I can tell you that people don't feel heard, and the worst thing that a constituent can be can feel, I think is unheard.

Even if nothing changes, feeling unheard is harmful to the relationship between this body of government and the people in the committee.

So I really like that.

So that's thing number one.

Um thing number two, um, is just that about the time.

Um, thank you.

And and really a hearty appreciation for the work that the planning director has done, not just on this item, but also um working to increase funding for the district councils, which hasn't been done in I forget what the is it 20 years.

It's been quite a while.

It's crazy how little money and how that formula has not changed in the amount of time um that has passed since that program was established, which was you know, groundbreaking at the time.

Um, and uh it really can't come at a better time when now also people who serve on district council land use committees can actually make a decision um on a potential land use application that comes before us, so we don't have to ask what the district council's name or staff doesn't have to say district council didn't respond or didn't have time to respond or what have you.

So those two things um make me there are very few things that make me very hopeful about 2026.

program was established which was you know groundbreaking at the time um and uh it really can't come at a better time when now also people who serve on district council land use committees can actually make a decision um on a potential land use application that comes before us so we don't have to ask what if the district council may or staff doesn't have to say district council didn't respond or didn't have time to respond or what have you so those two things um make me there are very few things that make me very hopeful about 2026 this is one of them this combination is one of them um the other thing I is more of a worry for the for the planning director um and the new administration to think about I believe based on my recollection of appointments and the natural attrition we will get super undiverse super fast and so I want to make sure that that doesn't happen because right now we also have a pretty big problem right now is that there is literally no Southeast Asian representation on the planning commission for a city whose population is 20% Asian.

So let's make sure that we ensure that the wonderful um ethnic and and age um and sort of life experience diversity that we have today doesn't dissipate with this with this concept of reducing to um seven plus two alternates.

Well that gets me to the last thing to the concerns about alternative or what have you I had never worked anywhere where that was a thing and now I have and it's it's wonderful and amazing and super helpful.

Meetings don't need to be canceled even for just one item and people are allowed then to like have the ability to go on vacation without worrying about whether they're gonna have to be missing something really important that they'd committed to so I love that idea too.

So thank you for that time and I appreciate it.

Thank you, Commissioner Riley.

I promise to be much more petulant in your hand is up the next time um thank you and uh sort of in uh commissioner Riley's vein I guess you know we do have a lot of positives that are coming out of the changes to the planning commission but we we can't forget some of the things that we're gonna lose and the first one was the sort of inherent diversity that we were able to maintain with our within our planning commission not only uh ethnically or racially but a age and background and of course I get a fog right what we'll speak just a second so trying to balance uh a city like ours with just nine people is gonna be incredibly difficult.

Um there's more than a few times in a meeting where a neat perspective that I may not have had uh came from somebody with an experience that I didn't have um really maybe carried the day and so having this perspective is incredibly important to me um um throughout this through this commission.

The other thing you know uh when we go from 21 to you know seven plus two or nine how we think about it um the planning commission has been um sort of a I don't want to call it a stepping stone but but certainly a route to further involvement the city uh city council chair the city council vice chair uh it looks like you know uh Mr.

Baker now part of part of the city and this has been um uh a sort of a growth area for a lot of people and perhaps the district council is as well but this exposure is something very very different than that uh have most of us have adding having had experience to both of them um so um losing that uh breadth of experience for the volume of people that were able to have it we're just gonna have to try to think about other ways that we can have people involved uh in city government that might uh lead them more naturally into a route uh you know as as a planning commissioner you know that uh transportation committee has always been kind of interesting because it's had commissioners and non-commissioners on that committee as an example but um I I just I just want us to be cognizant as a uh how are we going to make up for that as we move forward in the future so that we can make sure that plenty of people have exposure to the city the way we do now because we have lost some of that as part of this change.

Commissioner Ruth uh and I just wanted to agree with comfort and I um wanted to to note on regarding his comments that yes there's some um really perfect folks on transportation committee that I can totally see meeting future commissioners but um and it is a good opportunity to get folks involved who are citizens and who are non-commissioners but um on the note of the transportation committee's future just to clarify um you're saying that did you say that it's going to continue in its current uh as it is currently with less members basically is that what we're talking about with and continuing with public works as the staff support so uh so the commission representation will change to one uh but you know it and I'm working with with public works right now to uh see if they want to be more involved you know like what I said before when this was created they didn't have the staffing that they have today so I think it would be great to have you know like more public works involvement um you know in tandem with planning staff to have have all you know like all of the the people in the room so okay makes sense thank you yep um holds uh captured permanently whatever say but um I um do I

So I think it would be great to have you know like more public works involvement um you know in tandem with planning staff to have have all you know like all of the the people in the room.

So okay makes sense.

Thank you.

Yeah um whole caption but um are you um do I appreciate the change I I can see uh it's uh expediency and process the uh one thing that we're gonna lose is take a board and it's diversity and we're asking one person to represent that whole diversity and that's that's gonna be done um and then also the committee within committee that that was my lab yeah remember your labs and so uh having that loss having a hug is is one thing having a schedule you wouldn't go to your lab it's a much more schedule um that's just my two sense but I think it's a it's a both of them are valid concerns um I I think it's something we're gonna have to work on and how we have those conversations at Bowl Planning Commission because yeah the first few years of CNPC I asked a lot of questions that I don't think I really wanted to ask here um and so I think we're gonna have to have conversations with staff and make sure like we built those relationships and ask a lot of questions ahead of time and to your point we're gonna have to do it and we're gonna have to find a way to do it because um it will be definitely a learning curve and for newer folks I do think like when I came on the commission there was a lot more support and I think we've had these like giant waves of new people which we won't have anymore.

Hopefully it's only ever one or two at a go.

So hopefully are there are ways to support people a little bit more too just because the staff isn't trying to support potentially 21 commissioners if you're supporting nine um hopefully we're able to do a little bit more training and education and you know we make this we we get the city attorney to come every year and tell us what we can and cannot do and we get some of those things um to have those conversations because yeah I had um a former planner draw me something in a meeting because I was like I cannot get what you're talking about and it was um really helpful to have that time so I think there are ways for us to get it but we'll have to be creative.

Yeah well and I want to add that like just the committees are going away doesn't mean you can't ask those questions like all of the things that you want to know and talk about you can that will still you know be able to be talked about you know just because we're in council chambers doesn't mean um you know that you can't say hey what is all you know can somebody explain this concept or can we talk about this like I get I totally understand you know like having kind of a small group um setting creates a certain feeling um but just want you all to know that you know like doesn't mean that you're expected to know everything or you know to you know or to like administrate yourselves any differently it's just you know uh it'll it'll allow us sort of to give you hopefully better customer service because other commissions that I worked at I had um really close relationships with all the commissioners because I would brief them every week on what the what was on the agenda like I would do one-on-one briefings uh where we would be able to talk I could bring staff in for them and they'd be like I don't understand what this is I'd be able you know like to answer all those questions um and I can do that you know for you know probably like up to 10 people but 21 uh you know not really possible from a staffing perspective that's something that I've really missed is like I know I know you know like the entire background of an application and all of the baggage that it comes with um and you know things in the code and the comp plan and you know that's um something that I've missed being able to give it is like having those you know Monday morning calls where you know like the agenda came out and I'm calling and saying hey you know what did you think of this case did you have you know like you know because I get to know commissioners on a level where I'm like they're gonna they're gonna have a question about the wording of this sentence they're gonna want to know exactly about this parking thing because everyone has different things you know that they're interested in and we get to know those things and we get to say okay we're gonna we we literally write things you know from the perspective of knowing that it's important to you but you know like at as

Did you have you know, like, you know, because I get to know commissioners on a level where I'm like, they're gonna they're gonna have a question about the wording of this sentence.

They're gonna want to know exactly about this parking thing because everyone has different things, you know, that they're interested in, and we get to know those things and we get to say, okay, we're gonna we we literally write things, you know, from the perspective of knowing that it's important to you, but you know, like at a certain scale, like it's not you know, the quality of that is diluted.

So that's something really important to me that like I want to be, you know.

If you want a briefing, I will have a standing scheduled briefing where we have all the staff that you need to talk about things.

Um, you know, and you know providing that that um is something that I did at all of the other commissions that I worked at before.

And uh it was kind of weird and that I haven't been able to do it here and felt kind of anonymous to me.

Thank you.

Yeah, yes, yes, go ahead.

Sorry, I should be saying names.

I'm doing too much nodding.

It'll be easier when there's nine of us.

Uh concerning the um the diverse representation of the city and the potential need for uh ad hoc committees as a meeting and then dissolve when that project would it uh could it be considered to maybe uh tap uh red councils um for those ad hoc committees so that we can um have an opportunity to ensure diversity uh and especially if the specific um issue is in say ward five, um tap the ward five district council or you know, two two members to sit on uh temporary ad hoc committee, and and that way we we could um it just gives us a tool, a tool to maintain um diverse voices and experiences and a uh more uh synchronistic relationship with the district councils.

Um and um, you know, then the um the committee could be um use more and and not you know the the this the seven plus two number doesn't hold the entire weight um and that content something to consider I see the director nodding your head.

Um I imagine there's questions that you would have to ask the other people and how that would work, but uh I think that's a really interesting idea, and it's typically how many ad hoc commitments of this group have worked.

I was nodding too, but I I hate to nod and then commit the director to something where she goes, oh, they've definitely told me we can't do that.

So I'm I'm looking at a neutral face, but excited about the idea.

Um, Chair Grill.

Uh director, quick question.

I I love the idea of staff briefings.

Um also know there are open meeting laws.

Do you know like how that would that have to be in person?

Uh one thing that I think would be great is if we did have questions and we were able to do it over Zoom or Microsoft Teams.

I think that would make it very accessible and then maybe have an option for the public to weigh in.

Since it's not official meeting, I know that we have Minnesota open meeting laws, and there are some questions obviously coming out of the pandemic with that.

So I'm curious, and you don't have to have an answer today, but what would the logistics of something like that be?

Because I think if we could do it virtual, I think that would be that would be a home run, I think, for this commission.

Uh when I was in Stillwater, I had Zoom calls with commissioners randomly through the week with questions.

I had phone calls.

Sometimes they would stop by my office.

So, you know, open meeting law really is just like grouping.

Um, and I know the I'll have to check with our city attorney on open meeting law.

I know there was a change to it last year.

Um, but I don't think it was like very substantial change.

Um, but you know, like you can call, you can always call.

We can have a teams meeting, like that doesn't violate open meetings.

like grouping um and i know the i'll have to check with our city attorney on open meeting law i know there was a change to it last year um but i don't think it was like very substantial change um but you know like you can call you can always call we can have a teams meeting like that doesn't violate open meetings uh yeah we can brief like she can brief one on one she can probably brief one on two I think once we would get over that we'd start getting into the the realm of things but we'll have a new quorum limit we'll have all those things that'll be um we will need a refresher on as soon as we are reduced because um it's it wouldn't when we're at 21 it was easy to not um accidentally be in violation of things but I think that's a good reminder that there's a going to be a real conversation when four of us are in a room in the future um all right I saw Risberg's Riley said okay Roseberg okay just a quick follow-up on that uh could you also ask about open meeting laws applies to ad hoc committees and it it applies yeah so with those have to be noticeable or you would make sure that you only have three planning commissioners on that ad hoc committee at most there are plenty of people have figured this out like I get that you all are like anxious but like I have every faith in this city staff and city attorney to all these questions that you're asking have answers and they've been answered as the planning director's been working through all of these things.

Yeah um was the word the three yeah there's plenty of ways to manage those things and uh this open meeting law has been here forever and I have full faith in the planning director um she's worked for much much larger cities and much more and and much more controversial cities so I have no doubt that we are in excellent hands even though changes hard absolutely I don't need to talk now I'm good thank you Commissioner I can thank you Chair uh I have a couple questions with director um so for us zoning on um I know everything coming together with one um um side um so the business apply the the the um zoning so it's what what time the meeting would be on uh um the or zoning or planning commission in because right now we divide it into you know zoning has their own um time and commission so zoning committee will you know go away and all the applications will just come to the planning commission as of now the you know meeting date and time is still the same but we do have we will have the ability to change that if the commission would like to do so yep just follow up because um right now um the the you know the zoning on committee of the you know the on meeting and then they talk and the mega decisions and come to the um balancing because there is to be I feel like check on balance because you know the zoning is you know we just missed something like we had a question today that you know uh and commissioner asking question for the what we miss on what as a question and zoning can you know change or correct or or or lay over uh Balan Commission can you know uh lay over or or can correct or can you know you know um I mean that's what I feel like you know is yeah check on balance and for the uh there's only one you know committee making like planning full of planning commission making decisions then you know to and just going to the zoning I feel like it's not like that it's not that it's on balance.

You'll the the planning commission will still have all the same tools that the zoning committee has.

So they'll be able to lay something over you'll be able to ask questions they'll say hey I think we need more information.

It's just that those discussions will be happening with everybody at the same time and and they'll be happening for now at Friday Friday mornings at 8 30 but I will be making a plug that if people are interested I would really be in favor um and again this isn't going to be a conversation between the whole group but I would be in favor of the 330 Thursday time slot not just for all of us um but for members of public um and people trying to get in at the end of their work day or other things and or if this meeting were to run over and they were to get longer um I know people have had lots of work conflicts that are on the commission um and that we we tend to lose people around 10 a.m on Friday mornings um though the meeting is technically scheduled till 11 um so I'm putting in a long-term plug if people have any interest in Thursdays at 3 30.

um but again I think that's a meeting or uh an incremental change that we're gonna be making and um people get to have that conversation I don't get to dictate what time the meeting I'm gonna I'm holding the room so we'll have it I mean if this is something that you know is more desired we can talk about it sooner.

So we'll have it.

I mean, if this is something that you know is more desired, we can talk about it sooner.

You know, I I don't want to you know push too much stuff on you, but you know, like if that's a really like if the time and date changing to Thursdays is like uh, you know, like a big priority, I can make that happen.

Oh just one follow.

Um so um I was uh also but um listening to the other commission for the uh station for the community.

Um I know um when we are on 21 was about to present the community and um even uh wards um uh commission over um yes, some of the uh neighbors is misinterpositions and uh um but if we keep all you know just reduce those seven um I mean right now 21 still missing interposition in the community, but if we would the tool uh just seven, then it's gonna be harder to get involved, you know, get you know somebody from the other um uh neighbors and uh um some of the neighbors on some of the um the wards that might not know what the commission is is and what is uh um you know but the commission does and uh um I'm wondering how we can um when it becomes seven, um how ward is gonna go out to get you know um people to be involved.

Yeah, so as far as I've seen, you know, like the um the mayor's office has you know gone out and sought people.

Sometimes people apply randomly, you know, sometimes people hear from word of mouth.

Um, you know, like I register that concern loud and clear that like the the attraction will have to be a lot more intentional uh now.

Um anecdotally, I think when there were 21, you know, um because it's because it's so much of a commitment, you know, like it was more maybe of like a numbers game to fill seats.

So I think you know, moving forward, I will, you know, like pledge to convey this message to the mayor's office that this is extremely important.

And I can't really see a world where they wouldn't think that that was important because it is.

Um so I think but I think that you know, like if we are making the commitment less, making the time more accessible, that it will open up to a lot more people.

Um, because what I was finding was that I would be out, you know, because I'm always kind of on the lookout for people who might be interested in serving on the planning commission.

Um I was, you know, like finding great people who represent who represent, you know, different communities of the city.

They couldn't make the commitment uh because of their job or because of child care or a lot of reasons.

So, you know, while this does decrease the overall number, it opens up, you know, more availability to people, especially women, uh, because you know, a lot of child care.

That was the number one thing that I heard was like, well, I can't do 8:30 on Friday because I have to, you know, like I have responsibilities with getting my kid to school and then getting to work.

My my job isn't flexible, they won't just let me take, you know, three hours off every, you know, it's you know, at least six hours a month, which you know, equates to like almost an entire work day.

That's a lot to ask.

So, you know, I do like 100% care, you know, hear that and and want you to know that it's really important.

Um in tandem with the mayor's office, you know, we will have to be doing outreach in a different way and being really intentional.

Um there's a lot of other things that affect our process that I also want to work on that when it comes to like district councils, um things that I've noticed, like um sometimes the district council's land use committee doesn't line up with the planning commission.

And so it's hard sometimes for them to meet to get us a letter.

And so like there's things like that that I also want to work on to like make the entire you know ecosystem of the process work together instead of you know being so fragmented.

Um it takes a little bit to kind of like get all of those pieces going, but you know, from what I've seen, um, you know, we can, you know, like some of the things that I want to do this year is like work on how we communicate with the district councils, work on, you know, like how we help educate them about zoning and applications and um making ourselves available like in a different way that they might need.

So, you know, there's a lot of there's there's more ways um to be able to engage and say, hey, you know, we're you know, because we have this district council system, you know, the benefit of that is that I can say, hey, we're having a really hard time reaching this community.

Can you help us?

And they're like, yeah, we know these people and they can help.

So there's a lot of things like that that like I think are not totally obvious in the process of like when we send something to a district council, could we do that better?

Could we like instead of just sending them the application?

Could we schedule something with them to talk about it?

Could we say, hey, is there any way that you can shuffle around your committee or when is your committee so we could put the you know the application on a further out agenda, and we'd still be able to do that because we're saving 14 days.

So, you know, it's there's a lot of little pieces in this in this big puzzle, and um, you know, hopefully uh at the end of 2026, we'll have like accomplished like another increment in that.

All right.

Um Christian Sharling had had her hand up, so I want to make sure.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

In a broad sense, I'm supportive of the I don't know what my future in the planning commission is.

I tend to be supportive of moving to the Thursdays at 3 30.

Though as I reflect on it, I would like to encourage um setting the time different than when the conservatory for performing arts releases.

So just a point of not having those at the same time.

Should it be a Thursday at 330 time?

Good note.

I'm already in the building, so I don't know about these topics.

Uh Commissioner Riley.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

I have a comment and a quest or uh recommendation, suggestion and a question for the director.

Um recommendation is perhaps uh given the change in the makeup, it might also be a time for a change in the remuneration for the time.

Um so that it is not slightly less than eight dollars per hour, is what it works out to be about given date now.

Um so that's one note.

And then I'm wondering if the director would be willing to spend just a few minutes um explaining uh how a change in the structure of the relationship between the city, the district council person who belongs to the city and the district councils is going to help you do what you just said that you want to do.

Like with the staffing with Zoe.

Yeah, like coming to be yours, not the councils, like yes, yes, yep.

Okay, okay.

First of all, on the remuneration aspect, Roger, that I've been working on that.

Uh working on looking into parking.

But I can't make any promises.

Um there's a lot of things that I don't control about ramps and who owns them and a lot of things.

Um the district council part.

Um, so when I got here to the city of St.

Paul, uh, the district council staffing was split between two or three different people.

At one point, it was in the council office, then it got switched to PED, but there was like two separate people doing different pieces of it.

Um then we hired uh we were able to consolidate all of those kind of disparate uh pieces into one full-time position, which is Zoe Bourgeret, who is on my team.

Uh, I don't know if you've ever met Zoe, but she is amazing.

Uh and Zoe and I work really close every day.

Um Zoe has been working really hard to kind of sort out, you know, when you get into a position where there's been a lot of, you know, this person kind of did this contracting piece, and this other person did some technical assistance and the grant stuff was over here.

You know, like you have to consolidate all that, and then you've got a lot of sorting to do.

Um, so Zoe and I um have been sorting for a long time.

Um, and that's sort of where the the district council um funding came into play because we we were here, you know.

I was saying, hey, if we're having this, if we're gonna have this system, like it needs to work properly, or it's not getting us anything and it's not serving anyone.

So, you know, Zoe and I advocated, you know, for um increasing the budget.

Uh we also heard uh that the way that it was funded through community development block grant was really onerous for a lot of district councils.

So we were able to take district councils off of C DBG as well.

So those were two kind of like incremental steps that we were able to take this year uh to try to help.

Uh but there's there's a lot more, you know, like on the to-do list and and improving the district council system improves the outreach that the planning commission and any of the anybody, you know, like any city project, any anything does.

Um it's hard to look at, I I think it's really hard sometimes to look at all of these different pieces as one system.

Uh, but that's kind of my cup of tea.

Um so it's like, you know, if if I'm supposed, you know, if we're supposed to be communicating something really important, do you know, and we're contracting with them to do that.

Do they have the capacity to do what we're asking?

Yes or no.

Um, and so that's how I've been looking at a lot of things and and trying to kind of make the overall system work better, be properly resourced.

Um so it makes it makes a lot of sense that you know, like the thinking is um, you know, the thinking about the future is grounded in like how you've known the system to work in you know today and in the past.

Um Zoe and Zoe and I are working really hard to kind of bring everything into like a modern age where like communication is better.

Um, we're we're able to like have better conversations, have more time to have those and uh, you know, and keep chipping away at all of the different different pieces that need to get fixed.

Is that answer the 100%?

Thank you for indulging the question.

I hope everybody um can feel a little bit reassured based on what the director has.

All right.

These are changes that the city has asked for for more than a decade, more than 20 years.

We have to willing to do it, and I just can't be more excited for all of us in our groups.

Yeah, that's great.

Um, so I I don't think this is the end of this conversation.

I think we're gonna keep having it as things move and change.

So I think it might be a good opportunity to sort of wrap this up.

I also want to note um the governor has proclaimed today um as a day of community and is writing all Americans um to honor the life of Renee Nicole Good with a moment of silence at 10 a.m.

So just given the time that we're at at 9.55.

I want to make sure folks have an opportunity if that's something you want to do, um, that we give you this the space to do that.

Um so without there than any other discussion on this item, um, I'll officially say new business.

And then we will and seeing none, we will adjourn the meeting.

Do we want to bring this up for new business?

Sure.

I just wanted to be sending a follow about that.

It's not a business item for us today.

I just wanted to have people's hands so they can take a look at it.

Yeah, did you want to try to uh if we want to quickly have transportation, that would be great.

Um real brief, uh went over to five-year complain and bring discussion.

Um letter uh the World Street project, um but that is wrong and earnestly.

Thank you so much.

All right, and then with that we are adjourned.

That was yeah, yeah, we're gonna have that still select that.