Welcome to the City of St.

Petersburg City Council meeting.

Your elected officials are Mayor Ken Welch.

District One and Council Chair Copley Gurtis.

District 2, Brandy Gabbert.

District 3, Mike Harding.

District 4.

And Council Vice Chair, Lisseth Hanewitz.

District 5, Deborah Fake Sanders.

District 6, Gina Driscoll.

District 7, Corey Givens Jr.

And District 8, Richie Floyd.

Good afternoon, everybody.

Welcome to the uh November 6th, 2025 City Council meeting.

Could we do a roll call, please?

Harding.

Eric.

Hannah Witz.

Eric.

Sanders.

Driscoll?

Here.

Gibbons?

Here.

Lloyd.

Gurtis.

Here.

And Gabbert.

Here.

Thank you.

Okay.

We will now have our invocation given today by Pastor Kevin Lofrin from Grace Lutheran Church.

Then please remain standing for a moment of silence to all and honor our fallen first responders and the Pledge of Allegiance.

Please join me in standing.

Pastor, welcome.

Thank you so much.

And I do bring greetings from Grace Lutheran Church and School, particularly our eighth graders who I was just teaching prior to coming here.

Let's bow our heads for a word of prayer.

Dear God, our Father in heaven, we give thanks and praise to you for this day.

Uh for the body gathered here for living in a country where we have so many great freedoms.

Lord, these freedoms give us the opportunity to thrive, uh, to grow together, to gain a sense of community with people who are different and yet wonderful and glorious in the ways in which they knit a fabric.

Lord, I pray that you would be with this assembly today in the decisions that they have to make.

I pray that you would keep safe our firefighters, our police officers, our first responders, that you would be with the families of those who are fallen as well when we commemorate to them.

Lord bless the work done here today and always in the name of your son Jesus.

Amen.

Please join me in a moment of silence for Officer Gene A.

Bissett.

End of watch, November 10th, 1961.

Thank you.

I pledge allegiance and flag of the United States of America.

And the Republic for which one nation under God, indivisible.

Thank you.

Please be seated.

Pastor, thank you for joining us, and thank you for that beautiful invocation.

God bless that.

Thank you.

Back at you.

Okay, council members.

We have an agenda in front of us.

I'll entertain a motion for approval.

Approval.

Second.

We have a motion and a second on the agenda.

Seeing as no council members wishing to speak.

Clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted, Clerk, please tally and announce the vote.

Mr.

Chair, motion to approve the agenda, pass this unanimously.

Thank you.

Okay, council members.

We have a consent agenda.

Clerk, do we have any cards?

Ours, Mr.

Chair.

Okay.

We have a consent agenda, Council members.

I'll entertain a motion for approval.

Move approval.

Second.

We have a motion and a second on the consent agenda.

Seeing is no council members wishing to speak.

Clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted.

Clerk, please tally and announce the vote.

Mr.

Chair, motion to approve the consent agenda.

Passes unanimously.

Okay, we're gonna move into open forum.

Clerk, could you please read the rules?

If you wish to address city council on subjects other than public hearing or quasi judicial items listed on the agenda, please sign up with the clerk.

Excuse me.

Only the individual wishing to speak may sign the open forum sheet.

Only city residents, owners of property, business owners in the city, or their employees may speak.

All issues discussed under open form must be limited to issues related to the city of St.

Petersburg government.

If you are speaking to an item on the agenda, you may only speak once during the open forum or when the items come up on the agenda.

In order to vote to provide an opportunity for all citizens to address council, each individual will be given three minutes to speak, and after which the microphone will be muted.

If you wish to address city council through the Zoom meeting, you must use a raise hand feature button in the Zoom app or enter star nine on your phone at the time the agenda item is addressed.

When it's your turn to speak, you'll be unmuted and asked to state your name and address at the conclusion of your comments or when you reach the three-minute time limit.

You will be muted.

All raised hands will be lowered after each agenda item.

Regardless of the method of participation use, normal rules apply, including the three-minute time limit on comments.

The requirement that any presentation materials must be submitted in advance of the meeting and the rules of the quorum.

If live public comment is disrupted by violations of the rules of the quorum, the juror is authorized to accept public comment by alternate means, including by email only.

And Mr.

Chair, we do have speakers.

Okay, let's call two at a time, please.

First two speakers, Dr.

Perry Washington and Brad McCoy.

Please go to either podium, state your name and address for the record, and you will have three minutes to address city council.

Washington, do you need the court's mic or you?

I need that mic.

Okay.

Why do we need them?

Okay.

Oh wait.

Testing.

Go ahead, Dr.

Washington.

You said my name.

I live in St.

Petersburg.

I'm here to address Corey Gibbons, Junior.

Dr.

Washington, please give us your cross streets.

Thank you.

I will not give you my living address.

Never.

Corey Gibraltar.

I've been here every month that you've been in office.

You not call me and address the OPP problem I have with the city police.

You never called me.

You never sent me a letter.

But I'm being here.

You took my money and you bought new suits.

You get rid of that scary curl in your hair.

All that gillers ain't go.

Open your mouth.

We'll see.

It shine silver.

Obamacare took care of that for you.

You have never addressed the problem with the city police.

One of you all gonna do something.

First you need to search for information.

But I brought it to you.

You need to translate it.

Then articulate it.

You sitting in the building.

I design this bill.

But not name, but not on it.

But no one knows what I know about this building but me.

Twelve hours for my 67th birthday.

But I stood.

Seven and a half months later, I told three attorneys, tell them to drop it.

Guess what they did at the final hour.

They drop it, but you never called me.

How you doing, Mike?

That's the only man that spoke to me on his own.

Thank you, Dr.

Washington.

Go ahead.

Good afternoon.

Brad McCoy, 1856, Al Mario Way South.

I stood here last year warning this council that the city's public records practices were out of compliance with Florida law.

I have read your employee handbook, Administrative Policies, Florida statutes, uh, attorney general opinions, and relevant case law.

I've also filed hundreds of public records requests and documented the failures firsthand.

Since last year, the situation has become dramatically worse.

Requests now sit open for months and even over a year.

Records marked complete or missing documents.

I'm routinely told records don't exist, and only after I push back site state law or point out contradictions, the city suddenly discovers records and then tries to charge me extraordinary fees to retrieve them.

Councilmember Dick Deborah Fix Sanders states certain text messages about official business do not exist.

That is a flat out lie.

After I challenged that denial, the city clerk stated that the records do exist and informed me that I would have to pay for them.

That is not a misunderstanding.

That is a violation of transparency and a violation of chapter 119.

Just this morning, the city clerk sent me a payment request for redaction without knowing exactly how many red uh exemptions resist.

How can anyone calculate redaction time without knowing how many exemptions exist?

It's illogical and it's unlawful.

These repeated violations are not clerical errors.

They're systemic and deliberate.

And they raise serious questions.

Why is the city working so hard to avoid transparency?

What exactly is being hidden?

Even the mayor refuses to provide the simplest of records.

His schedule, his emails, his communications, and even basic expense details.

The refusals are constant.

The delays appear intentional.

The fees are being used as a deterrent to keep the public from understanding what is happening in City Hall.

Now we have a senior staff departure, Brian Caper.

While the city has no functioning archiving policy for text messages and other digital communications, I have already requested his text of official business.

Based on the city's pattern of behavior, I expect that request will be ignored or denied as well because you don't uh properly archive them.

Let me remind let me remind you knowingly violating Florida's public record laws carry penalties, civil, financial, criminal, falsely denying the existence of a record is a violation, charging excessive fees as a violation, failing to preserve public records as a violation, including text messages.

It's all a violation.

And the absence of archiving and archiving policy for these communications is another violation.

Last week I filed what will be the first or maybe the first of many lawsuits.

The case addresses only one of many violations I've documented over the past 18 months.

Create an archival system that allows each easy retrieval of records, analyzing all denials and all requests marked no records exist.

Establishing a clear and lawful standard for when and how fees are assessed and creating a mandatory archiving policy for all records, including text messages.

We deserve more from this government, not hiding, delaying, or deceiving.

Thank you.

Next two speakers, please.

Mr.

Belmont, please go to the poll.

Oh, say your name and address for the record.

Good afternoon, Peter Belmont and 103 Wildwood Lane Southeast, and uh it's nice to see you all again.

Um we know that we're a very pedestrian-oriented city, and I just want to briefly raise an issue that I was surprised at.

Um we've won many tree awards for our city.

And um, and as I was walking downtown, I was just somewhat struck and dumbfounded actually when I looked across at at the big new 400 central building in the streetscape.

And it's such a stark contrast between across the street and the oak trees next to the Snell building and the new 400 building and the palm trees.

And so I would just ask, can we do better?

Um, I think as you know, summer rolls around and people have a choice which side of the street they're gonna walk down.

It's gonna be the shady side, not the side with the small palm trees.

Um so thank you, and let's do better.

Thank you.

No more speakers, Mr.

Chair.

Okay, we'll go ahead and close open forum, and we're gonna move into I one and uh I'll turn it up, turn it over to McCall.

Sorry, McCall.

I was looking for you up here.

Yeah, good afternoon, council.

So we're here as part of a procedural process for project seeking tax exempt bond financing.

So the city has a health facilities authority.

We created that authority back in the early 80s.

The authority conducted the required TEFRA hearing um on October 21st, and they move requested that city council approve the attached resolution before you.

Um, where the facility that the improvements are gonna occur as located.

So these improvements are gonna occur at John Hopkins Hospital campus at 5016th Avenue South.

We're looking to spend about 70 million dollars.

They're gonna be doing a pathway expansion for the emergency room department, an expansion of the current surgery platform, the addition of a permanent MRI imaging department, and the placement of a steam line running from their um central plant to the main hospital.

And with that, the authority would you know request your approval solely for the purposes of 174F of the internal revenue code, the issuance by the Maryland Health and Higher Education Authorities facility.

They will be the issuance of the bonds.

Um the John Hopkins Health Facility System Series 2025 in order to finance and refinance the acquisition, the construction, the expansion, the renovation, and the equipping of the John Hopkins All Children's Campus here in St.

Petersburg.

Move for approval.

Second.

We have a motion and a second.

I wasn't sure which button you were go ahead, Vice Chair.

I just for those McCall, thank you for the explanation.

Just to make it clear for those that may not understand what's happening.

Correct.

This is something that we have to do, and we just have to approve.

Correct.

That's that's all I wanted to just put out there in very simple area.

100% correct.

And I did want to mention that we have representatives from the hospital and uh the authorities, bond council, Brian Miller Olive.

We have representatives there too.

Right.

So that's that's no, it's it's it's fine.

I just wanted to make sure that the public understood that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Uh, just quickly, very excited for all the Johns Hopkins All Children's staff in the room.

Very excited for this expansion.

Uh I've seen renderings.

Uh it's gonna be a beautiful addition to the hospital.

So uh thanks for continuing to invest in St.

Petersburg and our kids here in the Tampa Bay area.

Okay, we have a motion and second on I1.

Seeing as no other council members wishing to speak.

Clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted, clerk, please tally and announce the vote.

Mr.

Chair, motion to approve a gene item I one passes unanimously.

Okay, thank you.

Thanks, McCall.

All right, we're gonna go into E1.

Clerk, could you please read the title?

Sir Pose ordinance number one four one HL.

In ordinance of the city of St.

Petersburg, Florida, designating the first church of the Nazarene located at 1225 9th Avenue North as a local historic landmark and adding the property to the St.

Petersburg Register of a historic places pursuant to section 16.30.070 city code and providing an effective date in the public hearing for this item is on November 13th, and we do not have any cars, Mr.

Chair.

Move approval.

Second, we have a motion and a second on E1.

Seeing as no council members wishing to speak, clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted, clerk, please tally and announce the vote.

Mr.

Chair, motion to approve a gen item E1 passes unanimously.

Okay, thank you.

All right, we're gonna go into E2.

Could you please read the ordinance?

Proposed ordinance number 623H in ordinance in accordance with section 1.02 subsection C, subsection three of the Saint Excuse St.

Petersburg City Charter authorizing the grant of a public utility easement to Duke Energy Florida LLC, a Florida limited liability company, DBA Duke Energy within city owned property located at 1160 62nd Avenue Northeast, St.

Petersburg, Florida, authorizing the mayor or his design to execute all documents necessary to effectuate this ordinance and providing an effective date and the public hearing for this item is also on November 13th, and we do not have any cars, Mr.

Chair.

Move approval.

Second, we have a motion and a second on E2.

Seeing as no other council members wishing to speak, clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted, clerk please style in announce the vote.

Mr.

Chair, motion to approve a genitum E2 passes unanimously.

Okay, thank you.

All right, we got we're gonna move on to E3.

Could you please read the title?

An ordinance enacting year-in appropriation adjustments for fiscal year 2025 for the operating budget and capital improvement program budget and adjustments to the fiscal year 2026 budget and providing an effective date in the public hearing for this item is scheduled on November 24th, 2025.

And we do not have any cars.

And council members, we reviewed this today at BF and T, and I told Liz that we did not require a presentation because chances are the numbers will change by the time second reading comes along.

So I just wanted to give you that heads up.

Move approval.

Second, we have a motion and a second on E3.

Seeing as no other council members wishing to speak.

Clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted, clerk please tally and announce the vote.

Mr.

Chair, motion to approve a genetic E3 passes unanimous.

Thanks, Liz.

Okay, we're gonna go into E4.

Please read the title.

Ordinance number 1175 V, an ordinance approving the vaccine vacation of an unimproved isolated 25 by 60 foot dead in right away on the southern side of block one, lot one in the Maximo Woods Unit 1 plat, generally located at 3010 58th Avenue South, setting forth conditions for the vacation to become effective and providing for an effective date in the public hearing for the public hearing for this item is on December 4th, 2025.

Chair.

Second.

We have a motion and a second on E4, seeing as no other council members wishing to speak.

Clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted.

Clerk, please style and announce the vote.

Mr.

Chair Mosher to approve a genome E4 passes unanimously.

Okay, thank you.

All right, we're gonna move into E5.

Could you please read the title?

What was ordinance number 1176 V.

Yeah.

Sorry, it's a lot of them.

There's no judgment.

It's a little space.

In an ordinance approving the vacation of a street corner easement at the southeast corner of lot one.

Excuse me, in the Powers Central Park Block, 16 partial replet.

Generally located at 3601 First Avenue North, setting forth conditions for the vacation to become effective and providing for an effective date.

And the public hearing for this item is also scheduled for December 4th, 2025.

And we do not have any cars, Mr.

Chair.

Move approval.

Second.

We have a motion and a second on E5.

Seeing as no other council members wish them to speak.

Clerk, please open the machine for voting.

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted, clerk, please tally and announce the vote.

Chair must you approve a gem.

E5 passes unanimously.

All right, thank you.

All right, let's go into E6.

Last but not least, could you please read the title?

An ordinance of the city of St.

Petersburg, Florida.

Amending City Code Chapter 8 to add a new section 8-38.

Milestone inspections, providing definitions for milestone inspections, inspection, qualified building, and substantial structure deterioration, providing for for an inspection schedule, providing providing for consistency with state law, prescribing timelines and penalties to ensure compliance.

Amending, excuse me, amending section 12-6 to add milestone inspections, inspection fees providing for servability and providing an effect.

And the public hearing for this item is also scheduled for December 4th, 2025.

And we do not have any cars, Mr.

Chair.

Live approval.

Okay.

We have a motion and a second on E6.

Seeing there's no other council members wishing to speak.

Clerk, please open the machine for voting.

Council members, please enter your votes.

Councilmember Gibbons.

My man, it's all right.

Thank you.

Uh seeing as all present council members have voted, Clerk, please tally in and tally and announce the vote.

Mr.

Chair Mostert, approve a genome E6 passes unanimously.

All right, thank you.

All right, now we're gonna move into reports.

And this is F1, your neighborhood produce store.

This is an item I brought forward.

Uh although uh I I will apologize to Councilmember Givens because it is in his district, but I drive by it every day.

And so uh I wanted to invite Kelly Casto, the founder of your neighborhood produce store to come and just give us a an update on what she's got going over there and all the cool stuff that's going on.

Oh, okay.

All right, can I just talk or do I have to do this?

Can I just chat or do I have to follow this along?

You could do both.

So I'm Kelly Castle.

I'm the founder of Saving Our Seniors, which is a local nonprofit.

We've have given out over 96,000 seniors fresh produce.

Um I don't believe in donated food.

I believe everyone should have the basic right to be able to choose what they want.

Um at our we, you know, we run free markets around town.

Um after the hurricanes, I started helping local families to get fresh vegetables and different items, and through that process, I really saw that there was a need for affordable fresh produce um for people to come and shop at.

So I kind of I don't know, I guess I prayed to God kind of and asked him where I should go, and I landed on 132 49th Street South.

Um, kind of I think it's a great area because I have golf board, I have St.

Pete, I have various areas, and I have a lot of individuals and families that are struggling to put food on their plates because they just can't afford it.

So I did a video the other day that a family of three can come and shop at my produce store and get eight meals for less than 27 dollars.

I don't know where else you can do that.

I know you can't, but if you want to maybe go against that, I can't, that it's not true.

Please send me your information.

Um, but I have seen in the last seven months of opening a produce store a lot, and I have learned more things than I ever thought I would learn.

My background is in occupational therapy, so you have a stroke.

I can make you better.

Um, but learning families and issues that they might have.

Um, you know, families come in and they're like, I don't even have a working stove.

And I'm like, I didn't even think that that was a possibility.

So I'm like, well, I can't cook either.

So you can eat most of this stuff raw.

Um we started, we would have like an overflow of produce, even though we're still doing our free markets in the community.

Um, I was like, I'm wasting money that I don't have.

So I launched a cold press juice line.

Um, I took that from literally it was the worst juice I think I've ever tasted to something phenomenal.

I sell 200 and 50 to 300 juices a week.

I just got into duckweed grocery store.

I'm in different gyms across the area.

But then I was like, there's still like an overflow of some like zucchini and potatoes and this and that.

So what do I do?

I asked my friend Chat GPT, what can I make out of this?

And next week I'm launching a um dehydration line of fresh soups, spices, um stacks, and healthy snacks.

So that's what I'm launching next week.

And it will be called the the healthy pack.

Um I've learned giving out fresh vegetables that are non-donated.

I look like the non-traditional food bank, but I think food banks and things serve a vital purpose when you're in a crisis, but I think we lack sustainability in our community.

Um, I would love to offer like wellness nights to have families come in and sometimes they don't even know what to do with the food, right?

Or they're it's just overwhelming for them.

They're working multiple jobs and they're just not sure what to do.

But I will say I worked 115 hours last week.

Um, and I'm not sick and I feel great because it's what I eat.

I drink my juices that don't sell because they should be expired, and I eat my vegetables that should be composted.

So I know that our produce store is a new way.

It's not the traditional, but I know that we can serve so many people with dignity and choice.

And I think no matter where you're at financially, you can come to our store.

I never hear anyone say, Oh my God, I can't afford this, because they're typically like, are you sure?

Like, did you ring it up right, Kelly?

I'm like, Yeah, yeah, I rang it up.

Like, just you know, um, so uh I think we're just a difference, but but we are what we should all be doing.

There should be a neighborhood produce store in every district because everyone deserves the same access.

And I and I just think that um we'll be self-sustainable.

I mean, I will say the last six months has been challenging, but we are gonna get there because I have the grit and the the community drive, and I see the neighbors that I help on a daily basis.

A woman, Brenda, um, that was my mother's name, and I always say you never meet a bad Brenda, and she passed away a few years ago, and this lady came to my store, she runs, she drives the sunrunner down, and she pops off and she came into my store and she only bought like one lemon and then she walked out, and I was like, Well, that was weird, but okay, so then she came back later that day, and then she came back again, and now she's like my best customer.

And I she was actually in my store today, and I said, Oh, I'm gonna go speak to city council, like what should I say?

Um, she was like, You gave me hope.

Um, I she couldn't afford she made too much money for a food stamp to get EBT, but she didn't make enough to really survive.

And she said, like, you make me feel good, and I love the energy.

I've you know, I have homeless individuals that come in and I would have never known they were homeless, but they were breaking barriers because I'm not gonna not help them.

Like, if they can't afford the food, I'm still gonna give it to them.

Um, and that's like through our wellness nice night initiative is to have families come in and get like a 40 dollar voucher and shop at our produce store because I've gotten like people have given me food before, and I'm like, I don't even know how to eat that, I'm gonna throw it away.

I don't even want it.

And then, you know, giving them that ability to choose what they want to like feed their families, it's gonna make them healthier, it's gonna make them happier.

Um, you know, I always families are like, oh, you know, this food makes me feel good.

I feed my kids this food.

Um, picky eaters, we launched a little squeeze line too.

So we have a kids' juice line also.

Um I just think, and we finally got a little corporate sponsor, a little one for our workforce.

We wanted to turn our trailer into a commercial kitchen because I currently pay for one and I'm like always over the hours.

I never knew juicing was so involved.

Like, I feel like I'm getting carpal tunnel from pressing so much.

But it's okay, it's for the community.

Um, but um, yeah, so we're starting a workforce development program that will be for like at-risk youth kids, um, developmentally disabled, like after they come age out, like have something to do.

We want to give them certifications.

They can either work at, you know, with us, or we they can go on to um something bigger and better.

So that's kind of me in a nutshell.

I I recommend coming by and stopping at our store.

Um, I did bring like a bag, like this is the this is like the bag of produce that you would get um for the 28 dollars for the family of three.

But um that's kind of me in a nutshell.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Councilmember Harding.

Kelly, you've made my day.

Oh, good.

My day.

And I gotta be honest with you, I don't think I'm special.

I think uh I think you make a lot of people.

Yeah.

Um first and foremost, will you say your address again?

Wait, your address.

Oh, my address is 132 49th Street South.

And I'm like, I always get confused on East and West.

I'm not from here, but I've been here.

Okay, perfect.

Everything you did is scary.

Starting a business is scary, being an entrepreneur is scary.

Having people that work for you are scary.

And then uh not having a uh a giant revenue stream because you're giving it all away is scary.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you.

I share Hanowitz.

Thank you.

It's so good to see you again.

Thank you.

So, first of all, I want you to put the picture at the end where it says thank you.

And you can see your store because you had the presentation, and that's her store.

It is super cute.

And the produce was amazing because I bought produce there and it was absolutely wonderful.

And then you also had some other items that were there.

Um, I got some guava.

Uh, that's from a 94-year-old lady from Bushnell.

She makes that.

So I support local seniors.

Like, I know she's not local, but she's 94.

Your stuff is great.

Yeah, so you have some you have some some like made like just freshly made items that I thought were just fantastic.

And so I had that.

That was great.

Um, and your energy that you showed here, that's the energy you get when you visit her store, which is also fantastic.

She's wonderful, engaging, you know, the community that comes in and everyone that comes in, you were there helping people, and I thought you're just fantastic.

So, however, we can help, let us know.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Councilmember Gabbard, we're not over yet.

We're not over.

Oh, sorry.

Well, Kelly, thank you so much.

Um, it's so great to see you.

Uh popped in and saw you back in June.

And um, just you know, I echo everything that council vice chair Hanowitz said, like your the product itself um is just such high quality, and you would never know that you are in uh a community store, right?

Um, your your produce and all of those other uh items that you source.

Uh I got some of the pickles.

Um, I think they were made by an 80s.

They're no, they're made from the same lady.

Same lady, okay.

Well, her pickles are phenomenal too.

Took them home and fed them to my 14-year-old, and he was very happy.

And so I just really want to thank you, not only just for um what you're doing for the community, but on a personal uh level, the education that you gave me that day.

Um, you taught me kind of about how you uh use the I think it's the Florida Fresh Bucks, and and you can really take that additional um you know benefit and really help people spread, like you saw with how much you can get.

I'm with this I I take snap, but then I'm also like fresh access, fresh access.

Somebody comes in and they get like a $12 honey, they can get $12 worth of Florida fresh produce, and a lot of families are like, I don't even think about getting honey because it's out of my limit.

So it just is great to be able to offer that service.

So I just want to thank you for everything you're doing for the community.

And I agree, we need a Kelly and a store in every single district in this city.

So um, let's brainstorm.

Let's talk about how we can expand, how we can help you.

Um, I think you can see you have a lot of support here.

And uh, we just want to thank you so much for for being you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you.

Councilmember Gibbons.

Thank you, Chair.

Well, you are in my district, very fortunate to have you, and I'm so grateful that our paths have crossed and that you're working so hard.

You know, we we had the conversation and I talked about food banks and food pantries, and you know, you you told me you made it clear.

You said, Councilmember, I am the non-traditional food bank model, and I love what you do.

Um, people don't realize it, but you're a business on wheels.

You know, you're out there delivering groceries to those folks who, you know, in the middle of this federal government shutdown, who do not receive EBT snap assistance.

You are making sure they have access to healthy and nutritious food during these uncertain times.

So I thank you so much um for your labors.

They are not in vain.

Um, you know, to council member Gabbert's point.

Um, I'm already thinking outside of the box, you know, and I'm looking back there at my friend uh Mr.

Lundy, and I'm thinking about how we can get her over there at some of our properties with the St.

Petersburg Housing Authority, you know, to be able to teach those families, some of those seniors at the legacy building, how to eat what you grow, you know, in the gardens that they have there.

Um, I really see you taking off from here.

So through the ups and the downs and all the growing pains, stay there.

You got this girl.

So I appreciate what you do, Kelly.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you.

Councilmember Fix Sanders.

Thank you.

Well, first of all, I just have to say you are a breath of fresh air.

Um, your whole personality, your whole light, and I find that to be a part of your your personality and your characteristics of someone that cares, someone that gives back without expecting.

And those are my favorite people in the world.

And especially those that take others with you.

So as you say, your 94-year-old, your local um uh entrepreneurs that you actually support, the whole goal, the whole mission that you've set out on, trust me when I tell you, you're gonna keep glowing.

You know, now that we know who you are and where you are, I might have to come by 132 49th Street South.

And there's a lot of leave at six, like I'm gone.

Well, that's okay.

You don't you don't have to worry about that one.

But you especially got me when you said the honey, because I it I use honey for everything.

So when I think about um your your mission and what you are doing, 28 dollars for that whole bay.

Now, mind you, I'm commending you because I appreciate the value.

I don't cook, right?

So that's nothing that I do, but I will support you in other ways.

I'll support you in, yeah, I'll buy some some some broccoli and whatnot, but um, I just I just have to say thank you because it takes a certain person to want to help others as you're helping yourself and not gain anything personally other than the satisfaction of knowing that you made it an impact.

So with that, I say congratulations and thank you.

I am going to come by and see you, and you don't have to worry because it's dark at six o'clock.

So we I would do that prior to um, but then you talked about your compost.

I do know that they do accept some compost at our St.

Pete Youth Farm.

Um if you don't want to eat everything that you'd be there.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, now that I have the other program starting, I probably won't have like any ways.

I will have no ways.

Because I don't want you to waste it because we can definitely use it at the used farm.

Um, but other than that, I I again I I applaud you.

I have a cousin out in uh LA who's doing just what she they call it the prosperity market.

Oh so she's doing the same thing.

So if we have more people like you making a difference like that, just imagine what type of world this would be.

So thank you so much and congratulations.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you.

Councilmember Driscoll.

Thank you.

Um thank you for the presentation and for bringing so much sunshine into the council chambers today.

It's just what it's wonderful and refreshing, and um I'm really grateful for all that you're doing for the community.

In the presentation under um what your current needs are and what you're um looking for here.

Um you talk about city partnership and support, and I'm wondering how this can kind of dovetail with the efforts from Healthy St.

Pete and Kim Lato's work that she has done.

Wondering if you've connected with her.

Yeah, I was doing some of the like city apply employee wellness.

I was doing like through our produce pack, but we just really couldn't get it like off the off the ground.

I think uh I think a lot of people don't cook, right?

So um I think we're trying to like redo our our pack program kind of more with our cold press juices and our um, you know, our dehydration line and then like fresh fruits and vegetables in that sense.

Um I was in speak with the Healthy St.

Pete a while back about doing some like pop-up markets, um, but we just never could, you know, with the hurricanes and everything, we just never got it off.

And then I opened my store.

So now I'm trying to realign and and get back out there.

I would love to see more families to be able to come in and shop, you know, at our store somehow, being able to get some support um through there because I know like on Fridays we do uh senior day.

So I allow 25 the first 25, they come in and shop for it's like a $12 because they're one person, so they don't need as much.

But typically they're like, oh, I don't I don't need that, you know.

So um you can get like a lot at our store for very little.

It sounds like it.

Um I'm thinking that a healthy St.

Pete could be the angle.

Um and maybe a renewed effort.

Okay.

From the city to um partner in that way.

Because our little squeeze line, too.

We were trying to get with like the kids that go home on the weekends and they get their snack back, like offering on them like our six pack of cold pressed juice and some healthy just to give them some healthy felt healthy options.

I know when I eat better, I I feel better.

So their tummies would feel better, probably too.

Yeah, and it's even more important for the children to have what they need.

Um you listed um collaboration on site identification and or served areas and include um um small business and CRA support for neighborhood expansion.

And yes, it would be great to have one in every in every district and in all of the areas that need it.

Um there could be some opportunities there, and I'd love for the administration to explore that.

Um or just maybe like a mobile, like a mobile me too, you know, popping up.

Mm-hmm.

Uncertainties.

Yeah.

Um, but there are a couple of developments in the city that um have um struggled to find a grocer that this could be another way.

I really love that you have um that it's actually a place to shop.

I think there's real dignity and exchange.

Yeah, like the seniors.

Like that was kind of my because I know that they're my people, right?

So we're we're besties.

They text me all the time, and I'm like, let's start this new program and see how it goes.

And you know, in the last three weeks, they're like, Oh, this is just amazing.

Like, no one ever gives me the option to shop.

Like at my free markets, like they can shop, but I pick it out for them because but it's all fresh, but they've never complained.

But to giving them the option to choose the onion or the orange is like amazing to them.

I'm yeah.

So it's just that that I don't know, just makes I guess I want to choose my own stuff too.

So the big question is how what can we do to help get more of this going?

So let's um keep having that conversation.

I'm hoping that the administration will follow up and um maybe put a plan together to um see what your goals are, what you're looking at doing, and how we might be able to help.

Okay, great.

Um, thank you, Chair.

Thank you.

Bye, Share Hanowitz.

So I'm sitting here, and I get a text from one of the neighborhood presidents basically saying, how do we get one of her produce stores up here?

She's amazing.

And I had to share that with you.

Um, and I I can't agree anymore.

You know, when we're talking about partnerships, I you know, I see Mr.

Lundy from the St.

Pete Housing Authority here.

And there are other people out there where I'm sure you can find some great partnerships, and like I was thinking just of the neighborhood, and they were telling me, well, they're gonna be doing a market, maybe for the holidays, and maybe that's a way also you can get the word out, you know.

And so I just want to make sure you know that the this is gonna, I think, open up opportunities uh for you in different ways, and I'm hoping there are things that you didn't even imagine.

So the last thing I'm gonna say is for those that are watching and want to reach her in the in the presentation.

It's the produce pack at gmail.com.

Is that your email?

Yes, or that that cell phone number, just or the cell phone number.

I'm better, it's I'm better at the cell phone.

Okay.

That's the way that they should just text me.

Okay.

Well, great.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Well, Kelly, um this is what I was hoping when we invited you here.

Is that I didn't know what to expect.

One, you'd have seven more one-on-ones to have.

Um and also just the brainstorming of opportunities.

Um, when I walked in, I was blown away.

And so um I'm just so thankful uh to have you here in St.

Petersburg, thankful for all the work that you're doing.

And um I I'm just I'm I'm thankful to my colleagues too, because I know they're excited, and I think you're gonna my guess is you're gonna have a few text messages after this uh for some brainstorming.

And so just super excited for you, and we're gonna continue to support you however we can.

Yeah, thank you so much.

Thanks for being here.

Thank you.

Right.

All right, council members.

We're gonna move on to F2 and we're gonna talk things, Tampa Bay Ferry.

Evan Mori, welcome.

Good afternoon.

Good afternoon.

So that's a tough one to follow.

We're smiling already.

I've got jokes, but they're not.

I was trying to decide whether to put that at the beginning or the end.

Okay.

Do we start out like that or do we end?

That was that was great.

The ability to take a serious matter and make it entertaining.

Yeah is a true skill.

So um, but this is an exciting topic too.

Uh I'm Evan Mora Director of Transportation and Parking Management.

Uh, with me today are our um ongoing partners, and hopefully soon there'll be even better partners.

Um joined by Brad Miller, CEO of PSTA, uh, chief planning and community affairs officer, Darden Rice, and then we also have here uh in the front row, Tara Hubbard, she's the CEO of of Hubbard's Ferry.

Clicker.

Oh so here's a picture.

I'm not sure if you all remember, but uh the Cross Bay Ferry was actually docked at the Pure Approach uh for the pilot season, and here's a picture of it.

You can see the Vanoy in the background.

The initial investment for that trial was 350,000 per local government partner, and there was 300,000 in passenger fares that were collected that also helped pay for the service.

Almost 41,000 trips were taken, and writers gave the service very high remarks.

Uh the pilot demonstrated that there was a good demand for ferry service between St.

Pete and Tampa.

So what did we learn during the pilot?

Uh we learned that most customers were area residents, not tourists.

We learned that the ferry was good for local businesses.

Uh specifically, uh, people would spend over 40 dollars when they would visit.

And while the ride can be part of the experience, that was only the main reason for one out of five people surveyed to take the trip.

Two-thirds of rides were induced trips, and one third were replacement trips for other means of transportation.

So that means a third of the time you're reducing car trips, the other two thirds of the time you're stimulating the economy.

Uh fair payment data showed that riders came from almost every zip code in both Pinellas and Hillsborough County, so we had widespread usage.

And after the pilot's conclusion, St.

Petersburg continued being the lead government agency overseeing the ferry from 2018 through 2021.

Then Hisborough County took over as the lead because there were plans for major expansion in Hillsborough County.

However, those plans did not come to fruition.

And here in this picture, you can see uh the ferry once it moved over to the temporary dock by Bay Shore.

Uh looking at another year that uh is not too long ago, we had a nine month long season, uh, two seasons ago, and over three quarters of a million dollars was collected in passenger fares with uh a nine month season, sixty-three thousand trips between the convention center in Tampa, which you can see pictured above, and Port St.

Pete that you can see pictured below.

And here we can see the ferry encountered some rough waters earlier this year.

In 2024 and 2025, it was supposed to be our first full uh year-round service.

However, the operator went through bankruptcy restructuring and ownership change and eventually lost control of the vessel, and this resulted in a default of the contract with Hillsborough County and an early end to the season.

Uh last year we had some assistance from for Pinellas.

They commissioned a market demand study, and the results showed that 83% of the statistically valid survey, 83% of the respondents were somewhat or very likely to use waterborne transportation services.

And while we know that some people like to use the ferry to attend events such as hockey games or baseball games, the majority of people were using it as a true transportation service between the two cities to conduct all sorts of different activities.

Also, through this survey, we learned that the sweet spot or or the um best rate or fare would be $10.

And recently we've been charging 12.

So if we lower the fare by a couple dollars, we can expect more ridership.

So the exciting part, we have a new approach, a new day for the ferry, and we're proposing that instead of having uh City of St.

Pete or Hillsborough County or any of the local governments uh from county or city perspectives oversee it.

Let's have the transit operator oversee it.

Let's have it the award-winning PSDA oversee the ferry service.

And that brings a lot of advantages to the table.

First off, they've already been able to acquire an almost $5 million grant to buy a ferry vessel or two.

And in coordinating in coordination with the cities, PSDA recently conducted a competitive RFP process.

There were four proposals, and uh Tampa Bay Sea Taxi, which is part of Hubbard's, was ranked or scored uh with the most points.

And uh Hubbard's Marina uh and Tampa Bay Sea Taxi, but the Hubbard's group is a local company.

They've been in the maritime business for almost a hundred years, and they've run thousands and thousands of successful ferry and and fishing trips.

Another more sustainable and straightforward aspect of this new approach is having only two funding partners, City of Tampa and City of St.

Pete.

And I'm pleased to say that City of Tampa approved this same local agreement this morning.

Um so we were leading, but uh they beat us to it by just a few hours.

And even though there's only two funding partners, it's still affordable for the cities because of the way that this is set up.

In all, we have a four times better financial proposition in front of us today now compared to when the service first started for the pilot.

And in addition to having year-round service instead of half a year, we anticipate a 20 to 25% increase in the total trips offered.

Also, operating expenses will be offset by new revenue streams.

We have uh 50% of the charter advertising and concession revenues can go to help pay for the service, whereas in the old model, the operator kept all those revenues.

So, in addition to bringing five million in federal uh funds, we can also look to uh the PSTA to report trips and once those reports or once those trips are reported to the FTA, they'll send revenue back to PSTA for those trips taken that can be reinvested in maintenance and also capital.

So that will help in the long term keeping the uh subsidy down and the service up.

So uh next steps and current timeline, as mentioned, um city of uh Tampa passed this this morning.

If city council approves the item today, then it will go to the PSTA board finance committee on November 19th, and ultimately to PSDA's full board for consideration and approval on December 3rd.

Some additional steps required before we can get get started.

Ummately after approval, they'll get to work on uh finding out what's the best ferry boat or boats or vessels, I should say, uh for this area.

And um a few additional steps are required, including um re requesting approval from city council for license agreements as we've done in the past.

We're gonna bring those back to you in a coming meeting.

And the priority is providing a temporary dock in the North Basin along Bay Shore Drive, followed by a permanent dock along the Pure approach.

First, we need to go through the steps necessary to amend the city's comprehensive plan, which currently doesn't allow for further marina development in the North Basin.

It's our intention, however, to move through that process efficiently so that we can bring back uh that change in advance of the new ferry vessels being ready for service.

And as a last resort, the interlocal agreement does allow us to use the Port St.

Pete, but that's really just the last that's a backup plan.

And uh finally, I wanted to share with you a short email that was forwarded to us from Hillsborough County when the ferry was in the process of ending early.

And of course, many St.

Pete residents or Tampa residents who are currently missing the ferry can just drive their car, uh pay for an Uber.

We also have people like this St.

Pete resident who had their mobility negatively affected, and I'm excited for the potential of bringing back the opportunity for people, however, or for other reason they want to work ride the ferry.

And so today we have that opportunity to write the ship and get it back on course.

Indeed, an even better course.

You did there.

Uh with that, we'll wrap up and myself and others are available for questions.

Ivan, so excited to things talk things water.

Councilmember Gabbard.

Thank you, Chair.

Uh thank you, uh Evan and Brad and Darton.

Uh I we had a meeting already, kind of a one-on-one four, I think it was.

Uh, so I don't have any questions today.

Um, I just continue to remain um you know fully in support of the ferry.

I have you know been here, I think through every reiteration of this now, and uh a few of us have, and it has certainly been a journey.

Um, I love the slide that said lessons learned because we have certainly learned a lot of lessons, but it took all of that to get to where we are today.

Um, you know, I I still believe in this vision of being a coastal community, a coastal region that utilizes waterborne transit to efficiently get around as another mode of transit.

Um, and I know we're gonna get there.

I know we are.

I just think the difference now is that we have the right partners on board.

And so with PSTA being the steward, um Hubbards.

I mean, Tara, I never really shared this with you before, but I've been on several fishing charters with my family and your family's um establishment, and I just know um the kind of business that you run and the high standards and the high um, you know, just love that you all have for what you do, that is going to pour into this project as well.

And so I just feel like we are finally on that path to that year-round service, the permanent dock.

I mean, all of the pieces are finally starting to come together.

Um, anybody who doubted us, it's gonna be their loss, right?

Because we are gonna make sure that this happens and that this is successful.

We're gonna be able to look back on this many, many years from now and say, look, look what we did, and I'm so glad that we persevered.

So, Evan, that is much in part to you.

You have persevered, so thank you.

Um, I'm very very excited to support this today, and so with that, I would move approval.

Again, okay.

Councilmember Fix Sanders.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Well, first of all, Evan, you know, um true ferry champion, and also as being the chair for those that don't know of PSTA.

This was not an easy in to obtaining this ferry.

Please know it was not.

Um, and I have little bullets here of so many reasons why we should.

Hopefully, I don't have to read them all, but as to why we should um have the ferry.

But I also want to make sure that everyone knows there was a lot of attention um played uh in getting to where we are with this interlocal agreement.

There was a lot of conversations that actually had to be had, and so I'm glad that all of my colleagues had those 101s, but I still want to remind everyone.

We still have a few more steps to go.

Um we have to look at the comprehensive plan that will be coming back to us.

Um we met the hurdle with the Tampa City Council this morning, but we still have to pass PSTA's finance committee.

That's going to be I'm not on the committee, but I'm gonna show up that day on November 19th, as well as the full board on December 3rd.

So I know that in the conversations that we've had at PSTA, there's something that I want to ask my colleagues for if they will entertain me.

I know we already have a motion in a second, but a part of the resolution that we have.

Um the first choice location for the dock at the at the um north yacht basin.

That was a part of the major conversation, and I want to ensure that when we take this and present this um to PSTA that that is in our resolution so we can show a strong intent of partnership.

And McCall is here to answer any questions.

Did we pass these out, McCall?

We did not.

I too quickly because I want to ensure that we don't miss any of you know any opportunities to ensure all of our partners um the true intent to make sure that we're gonna do right um by our colleagues, by our our our constituents, and so you're getting ready to get the um the underlying look at that brandy because you made the motion.

Okay, it's the PCS under and it's already in the interlocal agreement.

It's already in the interlocal agreement, but I want to be able to do it.

You're just adding it to the resolution.

Yeah, I'm just yeah, I'm just adding it to the resolution.

So it's on the second page, it's underlined.

Um, just to kind of take the language from the interlocal that says the city's gonna prioritize providing the vendor use of a docking location in the North Vinoy Basin by first providing a temporary dock until a permanent ferry dock near the pier can.

So we're just taking the language from page four in the interlocal and adding it to the resolution.

The intent would be I I think correct me if I'm wrong, Councilmember Fig Sanders is just copying that over to highlight that in the resolution itself rather than it just being in the interlock.

So when we present this to PSTA, we have a little stronger, you know, leg to stand on.

Uh yes, I would accept your amendment, and I will also just add to that I did have a note here um to remind myself that um I know there was some conflict maybe with some Tampa Bay Regional Planning Council stuff from way back in the 80s, and as the representative to that board, um, if there is anything that needs to go before them at any point in time, I would be happy to do so.

So um just wanted to uh kind of clear that up as well.

So yes, I accept that amendment.

Yeah, second, yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you.

That's it here.

Thank you, Councilmember Driscoll.

Thank you.

I'm so glad we're finally at this point.

Um it's been um quite a quite a road we've been on with this, but it is um a way forward that really sets this ferry service up for greater success than we've ever seen.

And it was quite successful before.

I cannot wait um to see how this performs, how the experience is elevated, and how it grows under the stewardship of PSCA and the Hubbards folks.

We've got the right team in place.

Um we've got a vessel that'll I'm sure will be on the way soon.

And um, we have an interlocal agreement with our friends from the city of Tampa that we can rely on.

Um I think that it is in the best hands now with just the cities involved.

It um just makes for better um relations between the between the two cities and remove some of the bureaucracy that's involved when you do have changes.

So I'm thrilled about that.

I'm very happy.

Thank you, Councilmember Fixanders, for bringing up the North Basin.

That really does have to be a priority, and I'm so glad that we're um you know making it really making it um uh making sure it's emphasized in the resolution that we have.

The setup there um will have two parts to it.

And of course, um our next item will be talking about the next steps in the permanent ferry dock that will be in the north basin at the um the base of the pier.

But in the meantime, we've got a temporary dock um that's in the works.

And can you please give us a quick update on that process?

Sure.

So we uh have our Army Corps permit for the temporary dock along Bay Shore, and we are um just needing to make the same plan that change to the comprehensive plan that we need for the permanent dock in order to uh put it in.

And uh we also want to pretty soon we're gonna know a little bit more about what vessel or vessels we're going to bring.

We just want to make sure that final design accommodates the vessels, you know, there's side loading vessels, there's front loading vessels, there's 80-foot vessels, there's 100 foot vessels.

We're not sure exactly what what we're gonna get yet, but we've been working um you know behind the scenes to try to get that as ready as possible, and once that hits the streets, hopefully we can bring that in in a in a matter of just a few months.

Oh, that's great.

That's great.

That part has been um it's the biggest issue really that I've heard from people is you know why is it at the port?

Why can't we you know bring it back down to um near the Vanoy?

So it sounds like we'll be able to uh meet those expectations.

What kind of a timeline are we looking at here?

Um if this if this uh when this passes and when it passes through the two P STA rounds, what can we expect next?

I think I'll I'll uh ask our partners to to come up because they kind of steer the next part of it in terms of uh the vessel acquisition and and launch, if you don't mind, Brad.

Well good afternoon.

How are we?

Uh my first mate, Evan.

Uh as you said, Evan has been along for this ride and pushing me uh along this for a while now.

Um but uh it's been very great to work with him through all this.

And as uh councilwoman uh fig center said, yes, it's been uh a road to get here or a you know smooth, not not totally smooth seas, I would guess.

But we're here and we're very grateful to be here.

As far as the timeline goes, I mean, I I have given out my vision uh to um to the Hubbards and to Evan that if this is all gonna go perfectly well, um Tara and her family is gonna go fine too awesome um vessels, ferry ferry boats in a very short time, and they're gonna be perfect, and they're gonna be you know maintenance free, and um they're gonna cost less than the 4.8 million dollar federal grant that we have.

She's all um that that that is the optimal scenario, and then um, and then we will obviously have to get those to the Tampa Bay area, uh, and then we can operate the start operating the service.

And then in the parallel, as uh Evan has just described that we can hopefully work with you on uh ensuring that we get the uh approvals to get the docks installed in the Vanoy Basin.

Uh so best case scenario, maybe um maybe uh this spring or late spring uh we could maybe if we can do that.

Um there may be the need to start out with one vessel and then uh go to two ultimately.

Um we'll just have to see.

But hopefully in the next year we'll be up and running again.

Uh is my goal, at least.

Excellent.

Yeah.

That's that's great.

And um I also want to just compliment everyone who's been involved in um really fine um finding the the facts around who rides this and why, who uses the ferry and why, and has really um I think eliminated that idea that this is just like a joyride thing for tourists.

It is so much more than that.

And um with this operating year-round, with us having um, you know, um, if we have two vessels and we're able to increase frequency and really build on this the way we have always wanted to, it's going to serve uh many more people in many different ways.

rides this and why who uses the ferry and why and has really um I think eliminated that idea that this is just like a joyride thing for tourists it is so much more than that and um with this operating year round with us having um you know um if we have two vessels and we're able to increase frequency and really build on this the way we have always wanted to it's going to serve uh many more people in many different ways so um we we already many of us already knew that this was more than just a tourist attraction and the way that you have this set up now it's going to be um become more and more thought of as a just a practical way to get across the bay so um thank you for all the and thank you to Ford Finales for all of the work that's been done to um to really establish those truths so congratulations on um a lot of hard work and a fantastic agreement that you're bringing forward um I'm super excited to support it now and also when it gets to PSTA thank you chair thank you council member givens thank you chair and thank you Evan thank you Brad you know Tara the entire team for your hard work and your dedication uh just to end on a high note although it's still early uh I definitely appreciate you all literally riding the wave out um enduring the highs and the lows of the tidal waves that's come uh and that will come um but I I'm certain that you know we have the right people really steering the ship so I appreciate all you guys and your hard work um I look at this as an opportunity for us to really reduce cars that we have on the road um for us to stimulate the economy uh there are a lot of us who aren't tourists who are residents that rely on the ferry to go back and forth from here to downtown Tampa channel side and this is a great opportunity for us to really support businesses on both sides of the bridge um and I'm excited to see that happen uh a great opportunity for us to really uh support a business here in our community that's been around for longer than a century uh and and I'm excited to see this um really take you all Tara to the next level um I do want to bring up something that we mentioned in our one on one Evan uh and it's something that has been a concern of mine and others in the community um ever since the clearwater ferry accident um safety has been a primary concern of a lot of folks who are out there on their boats um so with that have we considered insurance liability concerns um can we talk about that a little bit what extra measures are we taking uh this go around just to make sure that the city's eliminated any liability or risk sure let me let me first uh I think we've got mitigated the risk in two main ways first is um myself and other people on the valuation committee really looked at the proposals for what's the safety plan what's the track record and one thing that Hubbard's brings to the table is a very good safety track record they've never had a major incident and I thought to myself you look at the risk profile for what Hubbard's does and what we're asking them to do and what they do with taking people on overnight trips 80 miles out into the Gulf of Mexico and bringing all people back safely year after year after year right across the bay is is is nothing compared to that it'll be um you know from a risk perspective they can handle that in their sleep.

And then secondly uh PSDA really tackled the insurance and indemnity very well the insurance requirements are are high um we had our risk management folks look at it and they were satisfied um maybe more than satisfied so I I think from a contractual perspective and thank you to the uh city attorney's office for that I mean if we're gonna say thanks for the hard work we can't forget the city attorney's office and McCall Dyer and other attorneys who've worked really hard on this we were ready for the September meeting it took took a lot of work um but I think we have everything covered very very well council member and to my to your point that was what I was trying to make is I think you guys have covered all the bases.

I think Hubbard's has a great track record if you look at risk profile uh you all have the experience and so if there is anyone who is credible and eligible uh to operate this ferry service it's Hubbard so thank you so much Evan thank you all for your hard work and I'm excited to ride again so thank you chair thank you uh before I make any comments on there any more water puns just I want I thought I'd check in back to you well Evan Evan thank you so much um for for getting us to this point thanks to PSTA for being a fantastic partner and thank you to Hubbard's um and Evan thanks for talking about um kind of the differences in trips that Hubbards is used to doing it the the only thing I might add is not only do they go 80 to 100 miles out then they'll stay for 36 hours out there so uh it's it's it's a different animal for sure.

And so uh the other thing I wanted to point out really quickly about about Hubbards is I and I don't know if it pops up into my feed or anybody else's but what I think they do really well here in the Tampa Bay area is market.

Uh they have podcasts, they're on the news, they're on the radio, they're talking about all the things they're doing.

That is only going to enhance the ridership uh on this.

And so I I know I'm echoing everything that everybody else has said about having the right partners, but I there's so many levels to it, layers to it that I that I just wanted to bring that one up as well.

So Evan, thanks so much for all your work on this, and again, thank you to all of our partners looking forward to getting this through.

Okay, we've got a motion and a second on an amended F2.

Seeing as no other council members wishing to speak, clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please any your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted, clerk to please tally and announce the vote.

Mr.

Chairman's to approve the amended item for F2, pass it unanimously.

Thank you so much.

All right, we're gonna move into F 10, which is uh talking about the dock for the ferry, and this was polled by Council Member Driscoll, so I'm gonna turn it over to Council Member Driscoll before we go to Brazesh.

Thank you.

And um thank you, Raj for coming to talk about this.

You know, I've um have been asking about the ferry dock since 2020 when we're um about to um open the new pier and and we had to do that without a ferry dock, um, which was in the original plan.

And so I've been asking about it ever since then.

Um having just passed this interlocal agreement to start the Tampa Bay Ferry again.

I think this is um great timing.

I'm uh you know, well, a little late, but you know, so great timing to really talk about what this is going to look like and how um uh like where you are in the process, what your timeline looks like, because although I'm happy that Evan is moving forward with um securing a temporary dock, we really do need a long-term solution, not just for the Tampa Bay Ferry, but for other vessels that um we're currently not able to accommodate, like the tall ship links and um other um educational vessels, things like that.

So what I have always been hoping for is um a dock, maybe too, that can accommodate not just the ferry, but these other these other ones.

And so Brezhnev and I have had some conversations about what that might look like.

I am really happy with the uh where this is going.

And so I wanted to make sure that everyone is aware of um what is moving forward as we look ahead to the future of the Tampa Bay Ferry and um this dock edge situation.

So uh good day, Consul.

Thank you, Councilmember.

Um honestly a pleasure to be here today, British Premier Engineering Capital Improvements Department.

And um thank you for pulling this item because it is it is a tremendous step forward.

Um it's something that is needed operationally to support as well as for the community.

So back in this um February of 2025, the city completed actually a very important part of this work, the sighting report, which identified the location, the most appropriate location.

Well, there were several locations identified.

The north basin along the seawall adjacent to the pier was identified as a prime location for the placement of the dock.

Now, this task order that we're bringing today would suffice on checking the list, checking off a few items for us.

Um one of the key elements in the permitting of the temporary docks for the ferry itself with the army core was the objective that we need to initiate the permanent steps for the ferry, the Putin dock.

So we with this task quarter, um, we'll be checking that off and moving forward.

Now, the other elements related to this, no, knowing that we will be also pursuing the possibility for federal funding.

At some point, I'll be coming back to council quite possibly as amendment to this task order because with federal funding, um we will re be required to do a NEPA certification.

And we don't want to get too far in the design that we may invalidate things that we should have um conducted part of the NEPA evaluation process.

So as we talk about the actual dock configuration, those are also items that we will be continuing to work with the our partners on that identify because we haven't we don't have the exact specifications on those boats yet.

We don't know what's a loading height, we don't know exactly how long is it loading from front, the side.

Those are specifics we have to work through.

Um we did place this at the deepest location in the vicinity of where we're placing this dock.

It's about 12 feet of depth, believe it or not, it's actually that deep in certain locations in that north um basin.

with the our partners on tenant identify because we haven't we don't have the exact specifications on those boats yet we don't know what's the loading height we don't know exactly how long is it loading from front the side those are specifics we have to work through um we did place this at the deepest location in the vicinity of where we're placing this dock it's about 12 feet of depth believe it or not it's actually that deep in certain locations in that north um basin so now unfortunately I'm not a boater so I'll stay away from the boating ponds and the water pumps of anything of that nature but um where objectively looking at the design um while we can talk about two docks or one dock it's really what is the operational intent of that asset what is the maximum amount and what type and length of boats are we planning to have there at any given time that will decide our boat ramp our boat dock configuration whether it be a longer dock a longer L-shaped dock or even possibly a two but we have to be careful with two docks because we do have to have that navigational access in between so it's not that we are not there but we are we as we finalize the criteria we'll come back with that amendment to finalize to move forward with the finalized design but at least we can get started on some key elements right now the seagrass study is done and we can start the preliminary pivot conversations as well.

And with that I will take any questions.

Councilmember Driscoll Thank you.

So can you talk a little bit about um what the dock will look like the first thing people think about is a a skinny pier type or a skinny finger like dock that goes out that's quite narrow.

But you've got something else in mind don't you?

Yes we do um that is thank you for bringing that up we're actually looking at a larger wider platform steel structure floating barge style which offers more stability and better longevity especially based on the water and the tidal conditions and the wave impact conditions on that north basin.

Now I have spent some time at some of our marinas doing inspections and to me as I'm honestly as I'm walking through um you do feel that sense of narrowing as you're walking through those sections you have the hoses there you have the power cables and ultimately there will be um people with wheelchairs coming to this facility.

So having that additional platform with that stable base and ability to load on both directions gives us that additional safety but and stability as well.

Thank you for that question.

Thank you and if we have um the opportunity to bring back the tall ship links which is so was so popular before would that we know that physically you could have the ferry on one side and the tall ship on the other side but can they both be operational and accepting guests at the same time is it wide enough for that and is there it it will be wide enough to have operations on both sides.

That is that is the intent.

Okay great.

So since our friends from PSCA are still here I wanted to make sure that um that they understand too like what what we have to look forward to and then planning this one it depending on what kind of vessel the um hubbards get for the Tampa Bay Ferry you might be able to accommodate up to three vessels at a time and it depends on the length of it too right so we'll be working early um in this design phase to actually confirm what the criteria is are we looking at two sixty foot boats on one side and one hundred and twenty foot booth on the other side really defining what is the maximum occupational capacity we need there and that's what we'll design for.

Okay.

And then down the road I mean I could see looking into the future maybe we would want to add a second dock um as activity grows and good opportunities come in how can you can you create infrastructure now like while you're in there can you um make it sort of ready for another dock well uh for down the road you know what I mean like the I'm gonna take a little time travel first so talking about getting ready for another dock council was gracious when we were building the pair um and I'll say seven years ago in one of the amendments that we brought to council was we in the pay approach section we constructed and we put in the fire hydrants on the north side specifically knowing that in the future we will have docks at this location we also ran the conduits for the power there as well so yes we always plan for the future in every as much as we can um you know what's practical in the future no the these are items we knew so our water supply has been I has is there already we already have two water connections with hydrants already at that location we may have to cut the sidewalk at those locations to get it to the seawall but it's there the conduit runs already there for the power supply and now looking forward from this point now to what will happen if we do need additional um capacity in the future so that's very important because we start to get into this I'm

So our water supply has been has is there already.

We already have two water connections with hydrants already at that location.

We may have to cut the sidewalk at those locations to get it to the seawall.

But it's there.

The conduit runs already there for the power supply.

And now looking forward from this point now to what will happen if we do need additional um capacity in the future.

So that's very important because we started this.

I'm I'll say a narrowing point.

We want a wide enough barge for stability.

But we also have to take into context we place we're placing that barge at the deepest part of that basin.

So it's tapering up.

If we plan for other barges in the future, we will have to know operationally that they'll have shallower drafts.

Um so it's not that it can't go in the future.

Um the seawall was designed also for ship impact.

Um so we can add additional docks, but then we get to that point.

Okay, if we have a hundred and twenty-foot dock ship next on that dock, and then we have to put another dock next to it, there has to be enough room for operational movement within it.

So now we're looking at probably 200 feet away to put another dock.

So we start to get limitations on all width.

So those are things we'll have to take into perspective.

Um because we also have to make sure we don't want those ships to go too far off into the shallower sections as well.

So as part of the planning process, we'll define um because that will be the defining criteria is what can I tell you how many times we get asked these questions is hey, hey, um with this dock or with this location or with this bridge, can I drive this type of structure over it, or can I have this type of item even for the port?

What if we have this type of barge ducked at that kind of seawall handle it?

But in this situation, we'll define that criteria up front.

So operationally, they know what they can advertise for.

Operationally, they know what they can accept.

Okay.

But very good questions.

Thank you.

I'm glad you're already looking out into the future.

So thank you for that.

That's all I had.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you.

Okay.

We have F 10.

I'll entertain a motion for approval.

Move approval.

Second.

We have a motion and a second on F 10.

Seeing there's no other council members wishing to speak.

Clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted, clerk, please tally and announce the vote.

Mr.

Chair, motion to approve the genetic F 10 passes unanimously.

Thanks, Brad.

Thank you.

Okay, we're gonna move into F three.

Uh and we're gonna welcome Mark Van Lu.

Good afternoon, Council members, Council Chair.

Uh good to be here this afternoon.

I have uh item F three, which is uh the city's local government area of opportunity funding.

I don't have a presentation for this, but I think everybody's pretty familiar with this process.

This is the uh uh funding that we can commit to a project seeking nine percent tax credit financing.

We're only allowed to uh provide that funding support to one project in each funding cycle.

Uh we typically do that through an RFP process that is competitive.

Um we assemble across department committee to review and and score and evaluate those proposals and ultimately uh recommend approval of one.

In this case, we're recommending approval of the Archway Partners project called Wembish Court.

It's located at 2025 uh Martin Luther King Jr.

Avenue South, Street South.

And uh we would like to recommend approval of this commitment of this funding to that project for this uh funding cycle.

Okay, thank you.

Approval sorry, I'm sorry, Councilmember Davis.

No, yeah, yeah, good.

Uh okay, by sure Hanowitz.

Thank you.

And thank you, Mark, um, for providing all the backup information.

I'm probably gonna have to like sit with you to kind of go through what the process is because I do have some questions regarding it.

Um just like some of the things I'll point out, you know, in the application it says the city may prioritize proposals from applicants who locate the development outside the coastal high hazard area.

That's not part of the scoring or anything like that.

That is a may, but then there didn't seem to be any kind of evaluation as to whether or not that was the case.

Um then at the bottom of the evaluation criteria says in the event of a tie score, the project deemed to offer the best combination of teenage experience affordability and likelihood of award will be selected.

And I think the way you kind of score this sometimes, those may not be the top things that may move the score.

And I and we can kind of talk about it.

So I just I want to kind of take the time to kind of go through it real quick.

Okay.

From the evaluators.

Yeah, I'm happy to sit down and talk, and we're we're always open to input and feedback on the process.

This is the process that's been in use for a while now, but we definitely want to take a look at that each time.

And if we can make improvements, we're happy to do so.

Yeah, and it's I really haven't had a chance to kind of look at it, so it's kind of my first reaction when I kind of just looked at it for the first time around.

So we'd value your input.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Uh Councilmember Givens, did you have anything?

Okay, not Chair.

Okay.

All right, we have a motion.

Do we have a second?

We have a motion and a second on F three.

Seeing as no other council members wishing to speak.

Clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please any of your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted.

Clerk, please tally and announce the vote.

Okay, we're gonna go into F4.

Mark, second at bat.

Aye again.

Uh this item is uh requesting an extension to the project placed in service date for the St.

Vincent DePaul Ability Homes project.

This project uh is is well into construction at this point.

Um construction began last year, and uh a significant uh communications cable was located uh in the site within the site uh construction area that required the participation of Duke Energy to resolve and and to deal with that cable.

Um it had all hit right after the storms as to when that work was to be completed.

Um Duke Energy was obviously delayed on a lot of things due to response to the storms.

So that was the primary factor that put the construction schedule behind.

Um they are anticipating completion of construction by next summer.

Um and the uh they're requesting a a one year extension on the placed in service date to uh December 31st of 2026.

Um we are confident that that this project has American Rescue Plan Act or ARPA funds in it.

Um we're confident that they will meet their expenditure deadline so that we can meet our expenditure deadline on those funds.

This is going out to the actual placed in service and lease update.

So that's the request on uh that we're asking today.

Move approval second.

We have a motion and a second on F4, seeing as no other council members wishing to speak.

Clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted, clerk please tally and announce the vote.

Mr.

Chair, motion to approve a jam F4 passes unanimously with council member Driscoll being absent.

Okay, we're gonna go to F five.

Mark's gonna stay with us.

I a third time.

Uh so this third item that I have today uh is is two parts.

The first part it it involves the uh St.

Pete Housing Authority Ed White project.

Um and the first part of this is really just a clarification as this project has evolved uh over the past couple of years, few years.

Um there have been a couple of changes to the affordability levels and unit counts.

So I just want to make sure that it's clear and that we're all on the same page.

Um so the the project originally was 70 units uh at 60 percent or below uh AMI levels, and um through the process of securing their uh financing for the project outside of uh the city support.

Uh council did approve back in 2023 the move from 70 units or to uh 70 units comprised of 14 units at 80 percent AMI, 14 units at 60 percent or below, and 42 units at 30 percent AMI or below.

That really hasn't changed other than the move was made to go from 70 to 71 units um in order to take advantage of some uh tax programs that are out there for projects over 70 units, and so that just changed the math a little bit in terms of the percentage.

So now the final count is 71 total units of that 15 units will be at 80 percent AMI or below, uh 13 units at 60 percent AMI or below, and 43 units at 30 percent AMI or below.

So I just wanted to provide that information and that clarification in case anybody kind of lost track as we've gone through a couple of changes on that.

The second part is uh a funding sources update.

So there is no change to the overall total.

Thank you.

Sorry?

We got we get they got you.

Okay.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I no, you're good.

I forgot I even had a presentation for this one.

Listen, I appreciate you getting right into it.

Don't get me wrong.

Uh sorry about that.

The uh total funding amount has not changed.

Uh it is remains at 8 million 938, 315.

But we are recommending changes to the funding sources.

So currently, as approved, that total amount would have come from Penny for Pinellus at 6 million 9140 and HUD home program of 2 million 24,275.

We're proposing to uh revise those funding sources.

First of all, the because we've gone a bit down the road from when we previously approved the funding sources, we now have additional penny for Pennell's funds available.

This project represents a great opportunity to utilize those penny for Pennell's funds, um, which are sometimes hard to be able to get into multifamily projects.

Um so we wanted to take advantage of this opportunity to use those funds for this this worthy project.

Um and then the the C D BG and community housing development funds uh replacing the home program funds, also provides us the opportunity to use these funding sources, these new funding sources that we're proposing on a project that aligns really well with the requirements of that funding.

It also makes better use of our uh expenditure deadlines to make sure we get all of this funding that's available to us out before we would lose any of it due to running out of time.

So it's really just a matter of better aligning our funding sources, making sure we hit all of our expenditure deadlines uh as to why we're requesting this change.

So I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have.

Okay.

Council members, any questions?

Move for approval.

Second.

But Councilmember Fixanders.

Uh so just so that I am clear.

You said it was two parts.

The first one was just clarification.

Okay, I just wanted to make sure that there wasn't something else we need to do.

No, that was just informational on that first part.

Thank you.

Uh Mark, just quickly wanted to say I I just think your office's continued flexibility to match funds where best suited in a time where we're trying to be as efficient as possible with funds.

I just very much appreciate.

So just thank you for the continued flexibility and trying to make that work and very excited to see this project continue to move.

So thank you for that.

Uh and Mr.

Lundy, thanks for being here.

Um, we got a motion and a second on F5.

Seeing there's no other council members wishing to speak.

Clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please.

Any of your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted.

Clerk, please tally and announce the vote.

Mr.

Chair, motion to approve a genome Five passes unanimously.

Okay.

Thanks, Mark.

Thank you.

All right, we're gonna go into F six.

No, excuse me, F7.

My apologies.

Uh and we're joined by Rich Lesniak.

Um I had requested this if I I'm sorry, it's not listed, but yeah, absolutely.

Councilmember Driscoll.

Thank you.

Um I have requested this report on um Albert Weddett Airport and the um new hangars that have been proposed.

We have um one group that had submitted a proposal for new hangars in a slightly different configuration.

And with this being a revenue source and an important part of our um of the of the airport's functions.

I really wanted to find out where we're at with this and um give an opportunity for everyone to have an update and find out where we're where we're going from here and how city council can help move it along a little bit faster.

Thank you for being here.

Great.

Thank you for inviting me.

Uh Richard Lesnyak, uh airport manager.

So uh the presentation um that we put together, it's kind of in three different sections.

First section, I'll just give you some basic background, kind of just hangar 101.

Then I'll talk about some of the future development potentials, and then finally I'll talk about the three hangars uh that were um destroyed last year in uh Milton.

So just again, a little basic background.

They're all different types of hangers on airports.

Um these are the general types, bulk community hangers are typically going to be your large hangers.

Usually it'll have multiple tenants, but you might have a single tenant that controls it, whether it's the airport sponsor or usually it's the fixed base operator.

Then we have corporate commercial hangars, and these can range in size up to very large to smaller.

Again, they can be single box hangers or they can be subdivided buildings.

Typically, this is going to be a single occupant, whether it's a corporate fleet or some type of commercial operator, aircraft maintenance, aircraft charter, that type of thing.

And then finally, we have T hangers.

Again, these are buildings that are subdivided into individual stalls or units.

Typically, this is going to be to accommodate the smaller end of the aircraft fleet, single engine, sometimes smaller, medium-sized twin engines.

And then, of course, shade hangers are technically just a T hanger without walls, if you want to think about it that way.

Currently at Albert Whited, we have all four types.

Hangar demand.

Albert Witted is historically always enjoyed hangar demand.

And essentially, I believe this is for two reasons.

Certainly we're next to a vibrant downtown on the waterfront airport.

And then, of course, the state of Florida, St.

Pete, Tampa is continuously growing area, growing population, and certainly a certain segment of that population are aircraft owners.

And really, it's a mere ref Albert Wood is a mere reflection of what's happening in a larger area of the state.

Hangar space weight lists, and the wait list at Albert Wooded is has about 200 names on it currently.

This is kind of the basic inventory of the airport.

I'm not going to go through every individual building, but you can just kind of see again we have a mix of all the different types of hangers on the airport, with the vast majority of them centered in the southern southern half of the property.

Hangar revenues.

Hangar revenues are the single biggest source or excuse me, hangar rents are the single biggest source of airport revenues.

And I think you would find at most airports like Albert Whited, that would be the case.

Most of our corporate commercial hangars are currently direct leased with the city.

And the hangar revenues account for about 60% of our annual operating budget.

And the pre-storm value in FY25 was $960,000.

Now there has been plans to look at future expansion.

Again, as we saw, there is heavy demand for hangars.

And one of the big issues with Albert Whitted is we are pretty landlocked and do not have a lot of elbow room.

However, in 2023, this is came out of the master plan we just completed, and we were able to identify some areas where future hangars could be developed.

The area in dark blue is what we call the Southwest Hangar Redevelopment Project, which I'll talk about in just a second.

And then the hangars in green are a little farther down the planning horizon.

And really, those are contingent upon one of two things happening, depending on the location.

One being the extension shift of runway 725 to the east, which was arguably the biggest recommendation that came out of the master plan.

And then the second thing is the redevelopment of the Albert Whited wastewater treatment plant site, which when that project's completed, the north third of that property will be retained by the airport.

This is the Southwest Hangar redevelopment project that we had done just a few years ago.

This was a multi-phase project that included both replacing some of our older structure as well as adding capacity with newer hangars.

The design phase for all the phases were completed.

And in 2021, we did complete construction on phase one, five, and six.

And ironically, phase three, which is the area shaded in blue, that was to replace T hangar buildings five and six, which were two of the three buildings that were destroyed during Milton.

So it's a good segue.

Hurricane Milton, 2024.

I'm sure you've seen these pictures or pictures like them.

Three of our T hanger buildings, five, six, and nine were destroyed, and it resulted in a loss of 32 individual units.

The buildings have been demoed down to the slabs, and as an interim use, they've been converted in the surface aircraft tie-down spots until such time we can reconstruct new hangars on the site.

The gross revenue loss from these was about 275,000, and of that the city's portion was about 192,000, which represents about 20% of our overall hangar revenues.

Now, if a airport is looking to construct new hangars, there are a couple avenues that can be pursued, and this is pretty typical in the in the industry.

You have a public option, so in this case, whether it's a municipal county or sometimes it's an airport authority, will choose to look to self-fund the construction.

It's gonna be done with capital loans, bonds, sometimes grants are involved.

The funding foot uh is you know it's certainly it would have the highest upfront capital cost, but certainly it's the highest revenue uh generation potential.

On the kind of opposite of the scale, you have the pro you have a private option.

Again, uh private entity would build a hangar in exchange for a long-term land lease.

The funding generally is gonna be the lowest upfront capital cost, but usually it's also the lowest revenue generation potential.

The characteristics, the land does get locked up under long-term lease, and usually it's the least favorable for compliance control and use of space.

And then the last one is kind of public-private or what we kind of call a hybrid, where you might get a private entity that partners with uh with the public entity, and you have a little more flexibility, and it just really depends on the amount of contribution from each party.

Some additional factors that do impact hangar construction on the airport.

Uh the first one up there's city charter restricts land leases on airport property to no more than 25 years.

Now I will say 25 years is certainly uh a decent amount of time, but um in the airport world um leases of 30, 40, even 50 years, especially for major capital projects, is not uncommon.

Um the Southwest hangar redevelopment project, again, as I said, the design for all the phases of that project were completed.

However, because it's been a little time, those plans would have to be re-evaluated and potentially updated for any building code changes that may have occurred since those were completed.

Um FDOT funding outlook.

Um we've been pretty successful in some of our past projects and being able to leverage F DOT grants.

Uh in fact, the the phase of the Southwest Hangar redevelopment project we that we did complete was through FDT grants.

However, the state funding environment has changed since then.

Um the availability of grant funds, the pressure uh and competition for the funds has increased.

Certainly, construction costs have increased, and the state has kind of started prioritizing projects.

And generally speaking, projects like runway safety is high.

Projects like hangars are kind of down on the low priority side of things.

In addition, I was recently advised that this year the aviation program is going to get a $30 million cut, and next year, $50 million and another $50 million the following year.

So it's kind of a bleak outlook right now.

And then finally, this is unique again to only the three hangars that were destroyed.

There are potential storm funding uh options.

Uh insurance, the city uh does have an insurance policy on the airport, and we did get a disbursement of some of those funds, although a lot of them have been used up, they were used for the demolition of the buildings, they were used for the repair of a lot of the adjacent buildings around and some other um uh other other damage and and hurricane-related uh items.

Um in addition, I I we do believe that there will be some more insurance funding dispersed.

However, we do not believe at this point that it would be enough to cover the cost of new hangars.

And the way it was described to me is like um if you have a 1990 car and you get an accident, insurance company is not gonna give you money for a 2025 car.

You're getting the value based on the 1990 car.

And two of those hangers were built in like 1970, so you can probably see the uh difference there.

Um, in addition, obviously the city has submitted um a lot of damage on on multiple city properties, including the airport to FEMA.

These hangars were uh included uh in that.

Um at the current time, it's my understanding in terms of timing, how much funding and stuff is still kind of a question mark, but I we do believe there will be funding at some point that would uh come for these.

So, specific to the actual three hangars that were destroyed.

We have multiple options looking at we have a couple different design layouts, and there's actually a couple different funding alternatives.

Uh, this is the this is the layouts.

Um before I talk to each one, I just want to give you some overarching comments on them.

Um you'll see there's a uh estimate, dollar estimate located next to each.

Uh, this is a rough order magnitude cost, and um basically these came from two sources.

Option number one was uh from Biltmore Construction, which was the company that did the demolition and repair work out at the airport post-storm.

The dollar estimates for option two and option three were done by American Infrastructure Development, which is one of our airport AE consultants, and in fact, they were the same firm that did the design plans for the Southwest hangar uh redevelopment project.

Uh these costs largely keep out soft costs, so it's mostly hard construction costs, and it's based on standard construction design materials.

I know post-storm sometimes there's discussions about upgrading, hardening buildings and stuff, and that certainly that could be done in this case, but certainly these dollar figures would uh escalate from what they're what they are shown here.

Um also uh hangar, there's again three buildings.

Hangar number nine, basically the layout of that building essentially says the same in all three options.

So, really the variation between the three is what happens on the site where five and six, uh building five and six were located.

Option one, which is the as is or maybe was is maybe more appropriate.

Um generally is gonna be the cheapest, simplest to reconstruct.

Um the one thing though, it's really only gonna accommodate the smaller aircraft fleet mix like it was uh prior to the storms.

Uh option two, again, this came out of the Southwest hangar redevelopment.

The design plans were completed for this.

It does involve transitioning the buildings to into three buildings facing north and south.

It does allow for the combination of a slightly larger diverse fleet mix.

However, there is a few less individual units than you would have in option one.

And then finally, we have the corporate layout option.

And this was one that came through one of the uh proposals from one of the um the proposals we received, and essentially you can see it's a pretty big footprint, really fully utilizing the five and six site.

It definitely accommodates the largest fleet mix and really uh really expands the uh storage capacity, but certainly there's a much bigger uh cost difference there.

So this is the last slide.

Um so these are the three options or kind of three funding out options we we have kind of received.

Again, just some overarching comments before I go through each down each uh column.

Both the private and the public private options are based on loose uh conceptual proposals, so that's it's fairly preliminary.

Also, you'll notice we did try to do some potential revenue projections, and we chose to look at it out to a 25-year window since the leap the maximum lease term on airport property is 25 years.

And then, of course, when we look 25 years, we did apply an annual uh escalator to those estimates, like a CPI kind of 3% uh fixed escalator.

So the first option, the public option, again, this would be a city of St.

Pete self-funded option.

Really the layout, uh the city could really pursue any of the three uh layouts.

The proposed uh funding would be again municipal financing, so bonds, loans with augmentation from any insurance andor FEMA funding.

Um it does say grant opportunities, but as I just noted, um, that seems to be kind of a bleak environment right now for state grants.

Um certainly there would be no lease term for it since it's self-funded.

Uh the potential revenues, the primary revenue source to the city would be the hangar rents.

And you can see because all three options are on the table, you can see there's different revenue projections based on which option would be uh pursued.

And the assumption was also made that it would we would stay with the current arrangement with the FBO, and you can see the gross revenues is the first number with the the number in parentheses being the city's portion uh of that.

And we basically and those those revenues are based on current uh rates on the airport, and we did escalate at 5% since these would be brand new uh buildings.

So second option, this was the proposal that we received, uh, conceptual approvals we received.

Um, and it's made basically multiple individuals, aircraft owners, tenants, and they're currently being represented through the friends for uh Albert Witte Airport.

The basic proposal is the construction of a hangar in exchange for a long-term land lease.

They were again the original proposer of the option number three layout.

Um so in this case the funding would be too pooled together by the uh involved individuals.

They'd be looking for a 25-year term, and they did ask about uh possibly of an additional 25 year option.

Um the revenue sources, this would be basically land rental, and this is pretty simple calculation.

Basically, it's just the current land rental rate at the airport projected out 25 years based on the footprint of the proposed buildings.

The last one, um, arguably the most complex and has the most variables, and if you change one variable, it changes some of the other variables.

So this is what we call kind of the public private option, and this was based on some a conceptual proposal with Sheld Air, uh a little about Shelt Air.

They are our fixed-based operator uh at the airport.

Currently, they have about 20 FBO locations, most in the state of Florida, but I think they have some in Georgia and Texas and elsewhere.

Um, but half of what Sheltair does is hangar development, and they've done hangar development projects all over the state of Florida.

Here locally, they've done them at Tampa International, St.

Pete Clearwater, Sarasota.

So this is definitely a sandbox.

They they play in quite quite regularly.

Um their proposal basically would be to reconstruct the hangars for an extended term and higher portions of the revenues generated for all the new buildings until construction payback is completed.

And from and again, I think if all things being equal, I think they would prefer option three just because of the fleet mix and because of the the large aircraft that that could be accommodated, but from a feasibility standard, cost of construction, 25-year lease term from a feasibility equation, option one is really the most, the one they thought was really feasible.

Um they would basically provide either all or a portion of the funding for the construction.

So the city provided some part of the construction funds, they would fill the gap or they would finance the whole thing.

Uh there would be an 8.5% finance fee, and the term is really contingent on how much funding the city contributes.

Um so what's up there is kind of what I guess I would call a worst-case scenario.

The worst case scenario being Shelter fronts all the construction funds, and they retain all the revenue that's generated off the new hangars for construction payback, and it would equate to about 17 years.

Now, if the city does contribute money, you can see that for every say million dollars the city contributes, it reduces about five years off that term.

And then, of course, when the construction payback is done, the hangars revert back to the management fee structure where the city retains 70% and the FBO keeps the 30%.

Uh the primary revenue sources for the city is going to be hangar and both land rents.

Uh, regardless of whether the shelter would retain all the revenues on the hangar, it would still be expected that they would pay a land rent for the buildings.

Now there is an option there that if the city wanted to retain a portion of the new revenues generated, um, that would be possible.

However, the term would have to be extended.

So instead of a payback at 17 years, it might have to be 20 or 25 years, depending on how much percentage of the revenue the city would want to receive during the payback term.

Um so again, you can see the assumptions.

Again, it's worst-case scenario where you'd only be getting land rent, all revenues general from the hangars is going to payback, and then year 18 to 25, it reverts back to the 70-30 split.

One additional variable on this too is that if the city were to receive funding at a later date, say three years from now, we get money, and that money is given to Scheldt Air at that point in time, the term and the payback would be recalculated based on the reduced uh construction amount.

Uh so with that, sorry, and it was kind of a long-winded last one.

Okay.

Thank you.

Let's go to public comment.

Well, Driggers approach on the podium, state your name and address.

You'll have three minutes to address city council.

Um Beach Drive Southeast, St.

Petersburg, Florida.

Um here today with Friends of Albert Witte Airport.

Uh, this is the first I've seen the entire um choices.

We came to the city with an opportunity to have a what I called a public-private partnership where the group that approached us would they would put up the building, and the uh city would put up the land.

To me, that's public private partnership because they're gonna pay for the building.

And the building they uh propose to put up is a pre-stressed concrete, hurricane proof hangars not replacing tea hangers that were there, which is part of the other proposals there.

Uh it seems to me to make perfect sense that it's no cost, no money out of the city's pocket.

It's um we had hoped to have this done.

Uh we looked, we started talking about this in August, and we had hoped to have the buildings built and airplanes in there by the end of the year.

I was kind of naive, and now we'd kind of like to see it happen by uh spring.

We could have airplanes there.

Uh we've had multiple businesses have to move their airplanes off the airport over to St.

Pete Clearwater Airport because they have multi-million dollar airplanes, so they don't want them sitting in the sun.

This would take care of that.

It would bring those businesses back, bring their airplanes back, bring the fuel revenues back, was not addressed by any of that.

Uh with the funds with the buildings that would be built by this group, they hold more airplanes, that hold larger airplanes, they uh use more fuel, and it's a win-win-win for everybody.

It's a win for Shelter because they get more fuel sales, it's win for the city because they get hurricane proof hangars, and um don't have to spend anything for it.

So it seems to make sense to me.

Um so that's the um that would be the option that I would recommend that you would support.

Thank you.

Tom Sassum, Joel Giles, please approach either podium, state your name and address.

You'll have three minutes to address city council.

Uh I'm Tom Sansone.

Um live on Beach Drive.

Um I had one of the hangars, uh, one of the aircraft that was in a hangar was destroyed.

Most of the other people uh that are sponsors that have come forward are in the same spot.

We've got aircraft that are out.

Actually, my aircraft's back at the factory in California getting rebuilt.

Um the idea of these 10 hangers just doesn't make sense.

We've come up with a design.

We've got a design that's done.

Uh we've quoted it, Scanska, the same people that built um the pier that built the new federal appellate courthouse using the same pre-stress concrete, that hangar will be there for a hundred years.

It'll laugh at 175 mile an hour hurricanes.

That's where I'd like to have my airplane stored.

We found um individuals that'll come forward, put up 100% cash for the lease for the 25-year lease term up front.

We'll be able to use that to pay for things in advance.

We'll also be able to finance for some of the people that are not in a position to be able to pay for it cash up front.

They can get uh we'll put together bank loans for them to be able to finance their lease interest.

There's nobody taking a profit skim on top of it.

There's no cost to the city.

What the city gets out of it is a bulletproof hanger satisfying that, and because we consolidated the sites, we increased a lot more hangar space too.

Uh, from a financing standpoint, I will tell you that that so we've got hard quotes on this from Scanska.

It's not a preliminary design.

We've got a few details that we would customize for individuals.

But hard quotes sitting there right now.

Umancing, we've got people that have raised their hands.

I will personally uh back this up that anybody doesn't step up, I'll stand for it.

So let's uh help us get our airplanes back.

Thank you.

I'm Joel Giles.

I live at 626 17th Avenue Northeast here in St.

Petersburg.

I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you.

I especially appreciate um uh council member Driscoll uh making the arrangements for the report and uh this this opportunity to speak.

I'd like to emphasize uh three things about the proposal that we've made.

First, it's coming to you from a uh newly created 501c3 that has its tax exemption.

Um we created that structure because uh our interest is uh not so much in uh providing a product uh for rent, but in improving the airport.

I mean, you know about the work that Friends of Albert Whitard has done, the tremendous success that it's had with its documentary.

Uh we created this entity to try to put on the ground some of the improvements that um the the work that Albert Woodard Friends of Albert Woodard Airport has done suggests need to be put on the ground.

We we want to work as a partner with the city, not as a uh a business coming in to make money off of uh uh the the activities that we would undertake to improve the airport.

Uh second, the product that we're proposing to provide will be a premium product.

The uh hangars that were destroyed were uh metal hangers, the precast concrete hangers that we're proposing to put up will be far stronger.

Uh will survive a Cat Five.

Uh not only is the construction precast concrete much stronger, but they'll have commensurate doors that will survive Cat 5 wins.

Uh but besides the quality of construction, each of the hangers will be highly individualized to suit the uh aircraft owners that will be coming in.

Um they're going to be expecting you know a much higher degree of uh fit and finish, so to speak, uh than is currently available.

Um we want to provide that because we think that will attract to Albert Witted uh airport a quality of aircraft and a quality of aircraft owner that we do not currently have.

It'll change the air uh uh the fleet mix for the better that'll benefit our business community, that'll benefit our FBO, Shelter, and that they'll be able to sell more fuel and perhaps provide more services.

Um, as for the rent, uh we're proposing uh ground lease at firm market value uh with no sharing with the FBO.

So the city would get uh every penny of the the ground rent that would be paid.

Thank you very much.

Appreciate your time and attention.

No more speakers, Mr.

Chair.

Okay.

Councilmember Floyd.

Thank you.

Um Rich, thank you for the presentation.

Uh I just wanted to guess some clarification.

Uh you presented us with a few different options.

Are you y'all currently uh I guess evaluating those options?

Like where are you at in a process with those options?

Yeah, so I again we're st I think it's I would say it's still preliminary, higher level.

I don't know that we've dug deep like we prefer this option or this is the option we want.

I think we're still kind of more in a general okay.

All right.

Thank you for that.

Just was trying to get the status.

And then uh I don't know, and since it's preliminary, uh I could be digging in too much, but uh on that slide that had uh maybe the last slide, I don't know if you want to pull it up, the three things side by side.

There's some data from before as well.

Um it shows that uh basically the you know, private option, public private option.

Uh there's an opportunity for them to fund the creation of the hangars and uh use the revenue that it generates to pay for the creation of the hangers.

But my impression from the public option is that you put the cost to fund the hangers in a previous slide and then projected revenue here, and it doesn't look like that would actually the projected revenue would pay for the creation of the hangers.

Well, so in the if the option two, yeah, they're not they're not asking for payback.

That's just strictly they would front the money in exchange for a long-term lease, and that's just but we would get land rent during the term.

So I see that in option two, yeah.

I don't, you know, uh but in option three, there they are uh it seems pretty explicit in both of those options that they're saying they're going to use the rents collected from the hangars to pay off the uh cost of construction.

I'm just wondering like if it's that um maybe profitable is not the right word, but if there's that much return in it, why are the projections, why is there such a discrepancy in the projections of what the public option would be?

Like it looks like we would not return an equal amount of money over 25 years as to what we would expend based off of what you have projected right here, or it would be close and it wouldn't cover debt service.

You mean option one and versus option two?

Yes, sorry.

Uh no, option one, two, and three, sorry.

Okay, I I see now that we're getting confused about the option one, two.

There's an option one, two, and three.

Layout option one, two, and three and the cost of those in comparison to the revenue generated doesn't match is what I think council member.

That's that's my impression.

I could be mistaken, but that's my rough math.

And I just wondered if you could speak to that a little bit.

So yeah, so I I I guess if I think I understand what you're you're you're asking about, is do you generate enough revenues to pay the construction costs back?

Is that yeah, I mean, would the city if we were to do optional?

Um so it really depends on kind of the the option.

Um, I mean option three over 25 years, 15.7 million.

I'm not sure that would cover the cost of the projected cost anyways, yeah of the hangar of option three.

Option one, option two, yeah.

Those are you can you can see the the and I and I I do have to note that um these revenue projections are pretty conservative.

Like we're gonna we're getting ready to do a market rates and studies charge of the year.

And that's part of what I was the point in asking the question was because my back of napkin math wasn't it just wasn't adding up, and I wasn't sure if this is a realistic projection.

Why would anyone want to make an investment like this?

So you telling me that it's conservative and that and also me knowing that this is all very preliminary is helpful.

I just wanted to get my head wrapped around that.

That's all.

I don't ask that question with any other agenda other than making sure I understand.

So uh okay, all right.

I appreciate it, really.

That's all.

Um I would look for much deeper analysis before I was to make a decision.

I think that's where y'all are at too.

So if I if I could just add a point to that, and and Mr.

Lesnier, please correct me if I'm wrong, but um, I think in the cost of the public option with the city doing the construction, we've also had the ability potentially for an 87% return on our investment from FEMA reimbursement.

Oh, yeah, take that into consideration with the cost of construction versus the revenues.

So just something else to keep in mind.

I did have that in the back of my mind, but I appreciate you bringing it up again because it had gotten shoved further and further back as the conversation went on since that was only at the beginning.

But thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you.

Councilmember Gabber.

Thank you, Chair, and uh thank you for the presentation.

Um I had to pull it up here because for some reason I didn't have it in my binder, uh, just to kind of follow through all of the uh, I guess kind of confusion with the numbers.

I I agree.

Um Councilmember Driscoll, first of all, thank you for bringing this report item.

Um, because I did have a meeting uh with the friends of Albert Witte uh quite some time ago um about you know kind of their proposal and and I find that proposal to be very intriguing.

Um I don't know, I mean, you're our subject matter expert, so I will lean on you.

Um a proposal like what they've brought forward, um, the private option is how you've uh laid it out here.

Is that something that is done in other municipal airports?

It is okay, so it is not an uncommon option.

Um I think for me our resources are just becoming so depleted.

Um we have so many needs, and I I just kind of wonder like where that breaking point is for the city to continue to perform all of these major projects by themselves.

And if we have an entity here who loves the airport, utilizes the airport, is an expert in the airport, works very closely with you.

I I guess I don't understand like why we would not be actively pursuing to move forward with more exploration on that particular option.

Um can Rob or James can you kind of speak to that?

Absolutely.

Um good afternoon, James Corbett City Development Administrator.

So um when I met with uh Mr.

Driggers um in the the middle of August, so about three months ago, a little less than three months ago, and they provided the proposal, and I think one of the distinctions that I want to be clear and also uh make it just to state that City Council and we've kind of tasked enterprise facilities to try to operate our facilities at uh a reduced or no deficit.

So we're looking at return on investment and just how we we operate our facilities.

That's one of the factors that we consider.

So when we we met with uh friends of Albert Wittit, um what I asked them to do, because I agree I was concerned about our ability, the funding, they were proposing something that didn't cost us any money at all, but we do have an existing relationship with the fixed base operator.

So one of the things that I wanted to explore before deciding what was was the preferred path to move forward is to speak to Shell Air and understand what they would propose or how they would be able to respond to replacing the hangers and candidly um three months in city time is probably not that long, but candidly they took longer than I would have liked to get back to give us a response.

We recently got this information regarding Shelter's uh proposal.

One of the things with the Friends of Albert Witter um proposal is that they are while they are paying rent, they're not asking for any money for the construction, our revenue would be limited to the rental of the land exclusively.

And so while the um the longer it goes on, the bigger the gaps shows.

So uh Rich showed you 25 years out.

It was stated that the hangers, which I agree they are they have a much higher standard, could be around for a hundred years.

After you get past that initial 25 year, whatever the payback period is on the public-private or even the city option, the the difference becomes exponentially higher because at that point we are collecting revenue from the actual rental versus with their proposal, it's only land, and it would only escalate by the cost of land going forward.

So I felt like you know, in three months, I needed to evaluate the three options further.

One of the other things I think Councilmember Floyd pointed out is we really need to look at these numbers because option three is more expensive.

I I think that the revenue estimate is too low.

Like we need to look at what we would actually receive on an on a higher quality, larger uh hangar.

I think we would actually receive more revenue.

So the short of it is the option with uh Friends of Albert Widdit yields the lowest return.

That's basically what it comes down to.

It yields the lowest return.

While there is no upfront cost to us, it's the lowest return, and we do not participate at all in the hangar revenue in the beginning or at any point in the future.

Um so I felt that it it was prudent for us to make sure that we're looking at all of these and and also evaluating as Mr.

Gerd stated, um, exploring the options for FEMA.

So if we were to go for it with the option two, there is no opportunity for FEMA reimbursement because we're not doing the construction.

The only opportunity that we can get any reimbursement is if the city participates in the reconstruction.

So we would we would be able to get up to 87 and a half percent if we were to do it, and potentially some if there were a partnership where let's say we fund half the construction and shelter or someone else funds half, we could potentially get reimbursement for the half that we fund.

In the Friends of Alb Witter proposal, that the FEMA reimbursement the option goes away.

So when you take in the fact that we could get FEMA reimbursement, that once we pay back the hangars from let's say it takes 15 years, 16 years, from that point into the future, we would we would benefit the we would get the benefit of a higher revenue going forward.

Those those that that doesn't exist in that middle option, and that's why I haven't jumped on it and said yes, we want to do this.

We're still considering it.

I think it's a it's a viable option, but to me it's not so clear that that's the option that we should proceed on that we would move forward with that right now.

And so just to be clear on the FEMA reimbursement, that FEMA reimbursement is still not guaranteed.

Absolutely.

It's similar to Tropicanofield, it's not guaranteed.

Right, it's not guaranteed, and it is to replace what is already there, not to upgrade to new.

I just want to be clear on that.

I I maybe I don't understand.

We do have the opportunity to to build back better, and we can get up to double the amount.

Okay, maybe.

If if it's reimbursed, again, it's all it's all contingent on the if but there is a possibility if we do it, there is zero possibility if someone else does it.

Um legal question, I guess kind of about where we are right now, because it sounds to me like we have a proposal that has come to administration that's an unsolicited proposal.

Um what is the process when it comes to the airport for that sort of proposal with notice?

Um all of that.

What is that process?

Yeah, I think right now, council member, they're in the process of determining if there is anything that they would want to move forward with.

Okay.

Um so really there's nothing else to do at this point.

There may be some other procedural steps that would need to be taken depending on what the decision is, but there's nothing specific at this moment.

Okay, so we're not required to do anything right now.

Not at this time.

Okay.

Um, I think I see a committee meeting in our future.

Um, this is more, I think, than we're gonna be able to really dive into today.

I'm very grateful for the initial conversation.

Um I am still just kind of fundamentally leaning towards more of a a private or public private option.

Um just because I'm just I consider to be increasingly concerned about our bandwidth, both on our resources, staff-wise, people-wise, and our resources financially.

Um that just continues to be a concern for me across the board.

It's gonna continue to be a concern for me.

We have a lot going on right now.

Um, and this has been a project now that has lingered for over a year.

And so um that's kind of where I stand on it.

I hope this uh comes to a committee meeting.

So I will leave that to you uh since it's your item today, but uh certainly want to continue to have that conversation, but have that conversation sooner rather than later, so that like we heard people can get their planes back, people can get their businesses back.

The airport is a huge economic driver.

I just had some great conversations with some individuals the other day that really want to be at our airport.

Um so I think that this is something we need to move on, but we need to do so from a very uh prudent position fiscally.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Councilmember Driscoll.

Thank you, and thank you for the presentation and Rich for spelling out so clearly what the different options are that you're looking at right now.

It's so helpful.

Um I I worry about just um doing the same thing that we did before, the option one there.

Um and it looks like that's what shelter thing that they want to do with a uh wait list of 200, I think you said um that's a lot.

And so I want us to be able to accommodate more.

I really like option three.

I know it's a lot of a lot more money, but look at what we get for that.

It's about modernizing the airport and right sizing it for what the needs and demand are today, and we can build back better by modernizing it that way.

Um I like the fact that they um proposal from Friends of Albert Wooded Airport are um using Scanska, they're tried and true with city projects, and the fact that they are fully funded.

Now if there is a concern about the um revenue from that, and that we would only get um the land rent, I would say you know, negotiate.

Maybe this is a different kind of public-private partnership that will go um into option three and benefit everyone.

Talking it sounds like when you talked with Shelter, they were and they were slow to respond.

The message that that sends to me, it means that they're not motivated, they're complacent, they want to build back the same thing because that's the easiest thing to do.

Um meanwhile, you have a group that has um passion, energy, ambition, and funding.

I know who I'd want to talk to.

I think it's time, this is an opportunity to um not only hit the reset button with these hangers, but hit the refresh button on how Albert Wooded Airport is handled by um creating a partnership like this.

Um I I know the the land rent wouldn't be the only thing.

Um if you have um more hangers, you have more planes, that means more fuel.

Tell me how the fuel revenue works.

Who do we how much do we get?

Generally it's about two percent of our annual budget.

So the way it works is the city gets a fuel flowage fee.

It's eight cents per gallon, and it's on a scale when you reach a certain level, it drops to four or sorry, drops to six than the four.

Historically, we do maybe four to five hundred thousand gallons of fuel a year.

And so, yeah, our the city's revenue from that is about thirty thousand dollars a year.

So it's it's not a lot.

So I mean, certainly I I I definitely agree.

I mean, if you build any of the hangers back, you will get more fuel, but certainly option three yields potentially would yield the most when it comes to fuel generation.

But how much it is, it depends how what kind of airplanes, how frequently they fly.

There's a lot of factors there.

It's kind of hard to hard to say.

And and again, I think to us, certainly to Shelt Air, maybe there's a bigger upside, but to us, the city, it's probably gonna be fairly small because it's just not a huge revenue source.

Hangar rents is really where we get our revenue derive our revenues from on the airport.

So, right now, I mean, now it's been a year, nothing has been done.

We've been missing these hangars.

You're telling us that the grants are gonna be more challenging.

We know that FEMA is not guaranteed, and who knows when that might happen.

Meanwhile, we have a group that's ready to go.

So I I hope that you all will take our feedback and give this some thought.

I do want this to go to committee.

Um I really hope that some conversations will be had and uh maybe looking at a way to um negotiate with this proposal that's in front of us to um uh get something actually moving forward.

I need to find out which committee Albert Wooded Airport stuff is sitting in right now.

I don't know if it's PS and I or I believe it is.

I don't think that it's an economic and workforce development.

I have none of that in front of me right now.

So um I will come back with a um with a motion, but I I would like to move it to committee.

Um just waiting on a response to see which one.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Councilmember Horing.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank uh thank you for the work you guys did on this.

Um and uh and I I've followed your logic, and and I think if we're a for-profit company, it makes perfect sense to me.

Um we're not and um and to your point, uh actually to to council person uh Gabbard's point, it has dragged on.

We do lack bandwidth.

Um we are gonna look for money for the port for um for uh the area that is the delay for keep going on and on and on.

Um and we have a tremendous amount of uh of experience sitting over here that are ready to go.

I I would like us to look at and consider uh working with friends of Albert Wooded.

Um and I'd like to see what happens with this in committee.

I and I I absolutely understand and I appreciate the work you guys that have done.

Um but that's where I'll I'll I'll be for now.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you.

Go ahead.

If I may, just real quick, I do want to say and I agree that we want to get this done as quickly as possible.

And it's been a year since the storms have passed, but it hasn't been a year that we've been with this proposal again.

Our first meeting was in August.

So it's been three months since we've had the proposal, and um I thought it it it made sense to do the due diligence and look at the various scenarios.

So misunderstand I'm I'm not uh referring to to the efforts of of either of you.

I I you guys are absolutely awesome.

I just meant we we've in this one particular case with these 77 balls that we juggle, yeah.

Um we have an option.

Let's look at it harder.

And we are looking at, and I agree, uh, friends of Abuted as a proven entity.

We and um, you know, the the capacity, all of the things that council has brought up are things that we're considering as well.

Uh it's just that we in the three months since the time that I've received the proposal, we wanted to just look at all the factors before proceeding into some long-term decision, and that's kind of where we've been.

That's fair.

Thank you for that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And thank you all for the information.

I'll just start off with I do agree this has to go to committee because this is a lot of information.

We still need more information and due diligence.

I will say that you know, looking at where Albert Whited is located and the risk with a storm and where you see it's right now after a storm last year, and waiting for FEMA reimbursements, and we're still waiting for FEMA reimbursements, not just for the storms from last year.

I think there are many other years.

I can't remember which are the ones we've had a list of them.

So the idea that we are not taking this opportunity right now to really think about how can we harden this to the point.

Uh when I see the cheapest and simplest to reconstruct, I I just don't want to see that because I don't I every it's six months a year that we have hurricanes, and so to me, the options are making sure that whatever you can construct and however those options may lay out is something that can withstand storms better.

And because it's not just the hangers, it's what's in the hangers, and then those are livelihoods, and however that evolves.

I mean, people lose what they have in there, and so I I just think that we can't we can't forget about that in terms of what the risk is.

I mean, there's dollar amounts, but then you're talking about all these other things, and I think they're just as important.

Uh so I just wanted to throw that out there.

I really do appreciate the options that we have, and I do want more clarity um as to you know what those numbers really do look like and apples to apples type a thing in terms of the type of construction that's gonna withstand you know a storm.

So thank you.

Thank you, Councilmember Driscoll.

Thank you.

They Albert Wooded Airport Master Plan sits on the referral list for PSNI.

And so EWD just has advanced air mobility.

Well, not just that.

It's a great thing, but that it sounds to me like PSNI is a better fit.

And so I will um make a motion to refer this item to the PSNI committee uh for further discussion.

Second.

Okay.

Uh I just have a couple of quick questions.

James, you mentioned, and we I know we'll get into this in committee, but can you just double click on the FEMA reimbursement?

I'm hesitant to use build back better, but uh you talked about the FEMA reimbursement and the opportunity to get double.

Can you just spend one or two minutes talking about that?

And you flew kind of flew through that.

The assist to make sure I say this correctly, so we can get reimbursement up to 87.5% of the cost for reimbursement, and that amount can be doubled if we build back in a more resilient manner.

Is that is that accurate?

Yes, we can get reimbursed up to 87 and a half percent of what we spent to build back to the original condition.

We can also work with uh FEMA and the states so that we can get some mitigation money and that would increase the funding.

Okay.

All right, thank you very much.

And then um if I could add George, just to be clear, I mean, and uh I don't know if we gave anybody the wrong impression, but if the city went forward on its own, um, you know, because this is an enterprise facility that generates revenue, it's fairly straightforward to borrow for a project like this.

So we wouldn't be waiting for FEMA funds up front if we give gave anybody.

Okay.

Thank you.

Um and then when uh we're gonna vote on whether it goes to PSNI.

I'm assuming it's going to PSNI.

When this comes back to committee, one of the things I'd like to see are some of the other financial factors when it comes to because it's not just the revenue versus the expense of the building.

So what were we spending on maintenance of the hangars, the in is the insurance cost change?

So just some of those other financial factors, if you would include those, because I think that part is important.

I if I had to guess, we get to they have to hold the insurance, they are gonna have to do the maintenance.

I wanna see what that is in comparison.

And again, I'm not uh I listen, I I have talked for years about ROI on our enterprise.

My only my only issue, and I we won't go down the rabbit hole today.

My only issue is we hold some enterprise facilities differently than others when it comes to ROI, and that's where I'm struggling on that because it's been pounced on a couple of times.

Like we we have partners that want to do it and want to be a part of it, and so I that's where it's like and and it's it's making money, it's just not as much.

And so that that that's all I'll say for now.

I but I I really James, thanks for coming out because some of the clarification you gave on your original explanation was super helpful.

So thank you for that.

And uh I'm looking forward to having this conversation and and just thanks in advance for including some of those other financial factors.

Yeah, go ahead.

So your point share, um, some of the things you're asking about or or the things that we are evaluating.

So that's why it wasn't just so like, yeah, let's do it.

But you're absolutely right.

There is other things to consider.

Um while there's more revenue, there's more responsibility on our side with this proposal.

Uh we're we're basically just we're we're a tenant and I mean we're a landlord for for land, and that's it.

So uh those are absolutely uh factors that we will make sure we include in our discussion at PSNI, assuming it goes to that.

Thank you so much.

Okay.

We've got a motion and a second on a referral to PSNI.

Seeing as no other council members wishing to speak, clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted, clerk please tally and announce the vote.

Mr.

Chair, motion to approve the referral to for PSNI for continued discussion of Albertwood Airport.

Pass this unanimously.

Okay, thank you.

All right, we're gonna move into F eight.

This was pulled by Councilmember Gabbard, so I'm gonna turn it over to her.

Thank you, Chair.

Uh so I think is Yeah, there he is.

He's back.

He's back for two in a row.

So yeah, back to back.

All right.

Well, um I don't think this will be a very long one.

Uh I really just pulled this one because I had some questions about the selection process, um, specifically the scoring.

Um, you know, I'm sure that you know, maybe my colleagues fill the same, but you know, we we have very few pool, it seems, of um, you know, professionals that actually uh respond whenever these RFQs and RFPs go out for consulting services.

Seems like we see the same names over and over again, probably Prajesh can speak a little bit to that.

But on this one, it really kind of jumped out at me a little bit because um the original scoring when the evaluations came in um were very different than what the evaluations were whenever the presentations were made.

And um ultimately ended up with uh, you know, the selection here that didn't reflect what that original um scoring was.

And so I just really wanted to kind of understand that.

If we're gonna continue to only see the same people responding over and over again, I think it's important as part of our due diligence as city council to understand how that scoring really works, maybe why those changes happen, and then why ultimately that is the one that is brought to us.

So that was my reasoning for pulling this item.

Um so with that, I'll go ahead and turn it over to Brajesh.

Yeah, thank you, Councilmember.

Um so what I'll kind of go on a high level discussion on is really um this was a qualification-based selection um through the C C CNA process.

Um it's guided through Florida statutes.

Um now once we publicly advertise it, the firms that um that get these notifications, they register with the procurement department um for uh what we call different NGIP codes.

And we strongly encourage and we've limited the the codes that we select because the NGIP codes is literally like the old school telephone directory.

It's that thick.

So what we've done is we've gone in and narrowed it down to um a short list of codes, and we that's what we recommend to all the um firms, whether you're a contractor, um a consultant, you've reached out to the city, we always give them that one page and say if you're going to register, make sure register only for these codes, because you don't want to want to register for that entire telephone directory because you're gonna get every single thing.

And keep in mind, you know, this this starts to look like meal junk.

So that's how we encourage firms up front.

Now we know our um procurement department also does outreach um and notifying contractors.

Now once the advertisement is posted, these firms will get notified and they will log in and see if the scope of services is of interest to them.

Um if it is, then they will go ahead and submit their proposal once statement of qualifications, because again, this is a qualification-based selection.

Once the qualifications come in, the selection committee, and keep in mind once it's advertised, the selection committee is under corner silence, just like um city council.

We can't talk between ourselves.

Um and we can't talk to the firms either.

So we receive those proposals through the procurement department through um I believe it's open gov.

And once it comes in through that open gov process, um we all review it independently.

There's a scoring criteria that we all review based on that.

We have to enter our scores.

And given um given in some context, you know, there are going to be times that you're reviewing the statement of qualifications, you're going to have questions.

This is the first first submission in the in that project.

So when we go into now the selection committee meeting, which is the first publicly advertised meeting, um, that's when we can all talk as group.

And we have open conversations about what we saw, the strengths, the weaknesses of the submitters.

Once we have that discussion, we independently, behind our own laptops, may update our own scores and submit it to the procurement analyst who then tallies those scores.

So again, nothing is handed in.

Nobody knows each other's scores, only the procurement analyst receives all of it.

And then summarize it to see whose first second third.

Now we're required to, you know, statutory-wise to shortlist at least minimum of three.

There are times I would say randomly.

And it's happening less frequently now than we did in the past.

Um there was a period in time that we would receive two, three, four submissions.

Um I think in the water wastewater one that we do recently enter executed contracts, we received 34 submissions.

Um so I think we're getting a longer turnover, a quicker to a larger variety of firms.

Um I didn't I can probably take a look at the list quickly, but I know we have quite a few new firms in that group.

Um we try to select firms as the most qualified based on the different categories of work as well.

Um there are firms that are larger that have what we call the full spectrum of services, and then there are smaller firms who are really specialized.

I'll use an example.

Um if there is a um a large firm who can do bridges, road under the category of work of roadways or bridges.

Actually, let's say transposition, simplest one.

Um there may be a firm that can do bridges, roadway, sidewalk, traffic signalization, and mastarm design, full spectrum.

But then there may be smaller firms that all they can all they know to is the niche, meaning they can do programming, synchronization.

Um so we score those firms based on the the individual qualifications.

Now the firms are then tallied by the uh scores of tally, gives us a number.

We go ahead as a committee have open discussion, we'll decide to move forward or not based on okay, these are the most qualified firms or shortlist a certain amount of them.

Um objectively, um this specific one, we needed to ultimately end up with one firm.

So we did move forward with the two firms.

For interviews.

But during that open discussion, we may realize hey, I want qualification, I want more clarification on this item or this item.

You know, I need to see more detail.

This wasn't fully vet um explained in the SOQ.

So we will sub through the procurement analysts that we will provide questions.

We don't reach out to them directly to firms.

We provide the questions to the procurement analysts individually, not as a group, um, not in a group email, but individually.

And the procurement analyst will prepare that that questionnaire, those list of questions provided to each of the firms.

Once the firms receive it, they have to provide that response.

We requested at least seven days ahead of the interviews.

Now that gives us the ability now to go through now and actually say, okay, yeah, they did have this, they did have these qualifications, this wasn't as strong.

Now we go into the interviews.

The interviews is closed from public.

Um it's a one-on-one.

And at that point, we get to dive into okay, why what's your project approach on this?

Give me an understanding of this.

You mentioned this, and we can go into deeper discussion.

That interview, once we're done, we move to the next interview.

No conversation in between, no discussion about water good in the previous interview.

And that's why we'll continue on going through each of the interviews independently with that specific film only.

They get out of the room, break, bathroom break, come back in for the next film.

Now, as we go through, we finish all the interviews, we break, no conversation between the committee.

We come back for reconvene, which is a publicly advertised meeting.

At that point, we have open discussion and we can discuss, okay.

You know, based on everything I've seen, everything that was presented, we've gotten clarification on this.

This is actually a stronger item.

We can update our scores.

Once we update our scores, this then tally's out.

Um I have seen these sort of situations on multiple RFQs.

Um I would tell you that it's typical to see firms flip in order going from the first from the shortlisting meeting to the final presentation.

Um I've seen firms come from number seven to number two as an example.

But I I would say definitely, um, this was an older RFQ.

It's a very specialized category of work we were looking for.

Um it required a larger resource allocation.

That's why it had two of the larger firms.

Um, and two of them really specialized firms in those categories.

Uh, but at the end of the day, I will tell you that we are seeing uh a larger pool of consultants applying to contracts now.

I mean, it was not easy going from trust me, the last one, 35, to I think we end up selecting 14 or 15 underwater wastewater.

Sorry for the long window of explanation.

Chair, I'll hold a question until after.

Sure.

Vice Chair Hanwitz.

Thank you.

And Councilmember Gabbard, uh, thank you for um pulling this.

I was gonna pull it actually for a separate reason.

Um I did see that, but I did have a conversation with Brajai.

She kind of explained how they got to selecting the group.

And they're kind of close.

But so I want to talk a little bit about the project itself, um, because that's that's what caught my attention about it.

So this project, and this is it's it's described as the scope includes identifying requirements for future asset management solution, auditing the city's GIS database within the assessment area and performing field inspections using Zoom camera technology to document infrastructure conditions and then identify segments needing maintenance.

This is our stormwater sewage pipes, right?

Stormwater convenience.

Okay.

And the reason I want to just point this out is because I get questions like this all the time from residents.

I get questions in metal on because you know they have all the canals and you and all that, and we've have had um SPTO go and Marshall's team, you know, going to perform field inspections.

And I look at this and I think for $750,000, why are we just starting now?

This is something that should be happening.

I'm just wondering, because it seems like a no-brainer to me for the amount of money.

I know that they're busy, like really, really busy doing the work in the field and all that.

So I just want to understand why I mean, why is it I when residents ask, like I want to ensure that the pipes are and I had a bunch of residents doing this in Metalon and asking me this.

Um why hadn't we been doing this?

Then I mean, I know that we did this with other pipes, at least with the right.

So I wonder, I would say this is really an attempt towards a multifacet approach.

Um first of all, operations, and I I want to draw to something specific.

Our NPDS permit requires us to have over the 10-year cycle, have inspected 100% a system.

Not your maintenance inspection, but proactive inspection.

Two different things.

So there may be a lot, there's a lot of operational work that is done routinely by our SBTO department.

But on each cycle, we have to show, or we should be, you know, you run the math on it, at least produce at least doing 10% net difference.

And not just net difference.

What you ins, let's say that 10% you inspected in year four, can't be the same 10% that that was covered any time in any of the previous years.

So even though our operations are continuously will be doing their maintenance up operational inspections to be fully in compliance of our NPDS, which is such a good timing.

The fact that our NPDS permit is going to be, and right now we are interestingly enough on cycle five, year seven, which is unusual, meaning the FDEP gave us a has not issued renewals yet.

So they've been given an extension.

So our two-year extension ends in the end of June 2026, our new permit will be in effect, which will be our new cycle, which will be cycle six in twilast, 202.

Which I would like us to be on that proactive approach, as you were hitting that nil, really, is like we we need to have that forward thinking planning, but really that proactive approach of making sure that not just our maintenance, but our 10% net average is continuously done.

Yeah, I I I mean I agree.

I just I I need to ensure like this data, for instance, we're gonna be doing this.

We're gonna be able to see the conditions of the pipes.

The interior of the pipes.

Right.

And that way we know whether or not there are blockages or not, right?

Because stuff goes through the catch basins, right?

I assume there's stuff that accumulates, and we hear residents like this must be blocked.

Water is not moving in this area.

I mean, I get that constantly in different areas and having a system to me in place like this and having data, especially collected by you know, a consultant who does, you know, it you're not taking away from staff here and all that because they have there's so much work.

I I I think it's fantastic, and I just for the money, I I've just I'm surprised that this isn't something that I haven't seen.

So to be completely upfront and honest as well.

There are a lot, we have 550 now over five, over miles.

Yeah, let's say over 500 miles of assets across the city.

This is going to start the process.

We will we're procureing the contracts, additional contracts to support our operations on ongoing cleaning, because there will be operational cleaning, but we would like to do okay.

As we're identifying, there's what we call light, medium, and heavy cleaning.

Every single pipe, regardless, will have to be cleaned to be inspected, which is really good.

Um meaning, you know, we have to make sure that that camera gets a clean view of that system.

Um so those contracts will be supporting.

I would say we'll also be coming back each year to supplement because to be honest, it's not fiscally responsible for me to commit a large amount of money into this if it's bond money, and I can't spend that in that yeah.

So I want to start now with a small amount.

Effectively see what my burn rate is, and then come back to council with any adjustments on the funding that I may need to go through the system.

Well, I I'm very interested just because of kind of the feedback I get from residents and the questions I get, and this seems like the type of project and the type of data that would be helpful.

Yes, absolutely.

That's that's what I wanted to say, and and I'm glad that Councilmember Gabbard pulled this because it it's one of the things that just has been increasingly coming up in my conversations with residents.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Councilmember Gabbert.

Thank you, Chair.

Um, just two more questions on this, Brajesh.

Can you uh speak to why this process started in January of 2024?

But we're just now seeing it now.

And please don't say hurricanes.

January of 2024, right?

No.

Um, so to be honest, as well, just um for right.

We went out, we selected the consultant, we were doing a lot of scope changes on this.

Um, you know, we had a conversations with our operations team as far as you know, are we going to have them clean the pipes to support them, or should we have the contract separate for the cleaning?

So there were a lot of details we were trying to work through on this.

Um also we were starting to get into that summer uh as far as when we were negotiating the contract, and we started to realize okay, wait a minute, we need to this is an assessment.

We would like to have two things, and uh and this is where I'm going to strategically one of the items we knew our NPDS permit was coming up for renewal.

We didn't know what the compliance requirements yet.

We still don't know what it is yet.

Um so we were hoping to get close that permit a little bit closer.

Um that's why you know it's now on a two-year extension.

We still don't have the permit.

We have to move forward with this at some point.

So that's one element.

But the other element is the fact of you know, we were starting to get storms, we were starting to get heavy inundation rain events.

So we decided look, this is an assessment.

Let's see what projects we can actually move instead and pull off on this for a little while and actually start to do some other projects that can relieve some burden on the system while we continue and you know, again, wait to get the permit if we get it in time, um, then we can really have a clean um or can I say um scoop come into council.

Okay.

And then my last question is about um I guess the this prioritization, I'll call it of the assessment that's going to happen.

Um talked about this a little bit this morning, talking about the bonds, you know, making sure that you know we are kind of strategically prioritizing where projects are happening.

Right.

But if projects are going to be informed by these assessments, what is the strategy for where these assessments happen?

Yes.

So the beautiful thing about this is because we're administering the project, we're going to overlay that data in our GIS project coordination data set.

So as we identify pipes, we'll have contractors already lined up, which is currently in the procurement process.

Um and hopefully it's already advertised in open gov.

So by the time these contractors have already been by time this firm's already authorized and start doing the inspections, they'll have a lot, a list of assets that either need to be cleaned, lined, repaired, um, identified already.

Now we are going to compare that GI because we'll get that information back as a GIS overlay.

That will be compared with our master plan projects as well as other projects that are being planned in different corridors based on the criticality.

We'll say, okay, we need to move on this.

This is a dig and replace.

Okay, this is a lining.

Um, so that sequential will be managed there as well within that operational, essentially this overall program, if I may say.

Now, that also feeds into the bigger picture as far as okay, this section of pipe, it's not in good condition, but structurally it's fine, but we can advance a stormwater master plan.

So it you see how that now starts to line up.

Sequencing of it all.

I think one of the perfect examples of that is 62nd Avenue North, where we've kind of combined the stormwater with the wastewater as well as the Route Air Project.

Okay, very good.

Well, uh, thank you for the very thorough explanation.

Um, and with that, I will move approval.

Second.

Okay.

We have a motion and a second for F eight.

Seeing there's no other council members wishing to speak.

Clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing as all President Mount Council members have voted.

Clerk, please style and announce the vote.

Mr.

Chair, motion to approve it unanimous.

F eight passes unanimously with Council Member Driscoll being absent.

Okay, we're gonna go into F9.

This was also pulled pulled by Councilmember Gavard.

Turn it over to her.

All right, thank you so much.

Um, yeah, I mean this one was simply pulled because of the uh enormity of the project and the uh dollar amount.

So I thought it was worthy of a conversation.

So uh with that, I'll turn it over to you.

Good day, council.

It is a pleasure, as always.

And this is actually a um a fantastic project bringing forward for operational team.

Umperations building, some media improvements, actually replacement of that facility.

But I'm gonna hand it over to the chief here, city architect, Raoul Quintana.

Thank you, Chief Engineer.

Um thank you, council.

Um we have a quick little presentation to share with you.

But this is um, and and you recognize it's a very um interesting project.

It's one of three, actually.

I've we have three uh wastewater reclamation facilities.

Uh the department water resources identified this as the highest priority, decided to do it first.

Um just step real quickly through the the project with this.

This is uh in front of you is the award of a GMP proposal to Ajax construction amount of 18 uh point three million dollars.

8.8 million of this is funded through a resilient Florida program grant.

And so we have uh achieved that grant award for this first project.

We're we're proceeding to apply for those grants for the next project, which would be Northeast.

So it's a it's a new three-story facility.

And I thought I just is uh kind of zeroing in on the site.

It's a much larger site than this, but it's right off of 54th Avenue.

Uh to the left would be Eckard College.

Uh to the south to the bottom uh would be um creek.

Uh and this is showing where the existing operations building is, it's a separate building that's a maintenance building.

So we're combining two buildings into one.

We're building a new um much larger three-story facility that is going to replace what if effectively are 50-year-old buildings on this site.

Uh those buildings are no longer operationally functional.

They don't meet the emergency criteria, uh daily situations that come up and also emergency issues that come up.

Uh the plant operations uh need to continue through during these events, and uh the building existing buildings is not rated for any kind of hurricane wind strength, and obviously not rated for storm surge.

So I thought it would be helpful to kind of just give you a comparison and explain how we arrived uh at this facility.

Um it's designed to to basically meet Cat 5 flood stage.

Uh the new facility is um will have three levels.

The first level is primarily maintenance, uh it's got a mud room and a welding shop, and that's gonna be uh flood-proofed.

Uh the second level are where the technical staff offices are, the restrooms lockers, uh conference area, and the third level is where the SCADA, which is the uh supervisory control and data acquisition system, uh the the guts and the brains of the whole facility is gonna be uh located in the top level, along with uh the operation staff, uh resources for you know conference areas, the break room.

They'll be able to you know operate out of here during a storm, would have not not have to evacuate.

Uh so there's uh capacity for bunking, feeding, and all of that in this facility.

And so just to kind of give you an example, the existing building uh is at a uh finished floor elevation of 8.5 NAVD.

And that is grade basically.

Uh if we were to build this basically uh to building code, well the the uh FEMA requires this at base flood elevation would have been 10 NABD, and the building code with uh the free board and the additional uh foot of uh elevation would have been at 13 NAVD.

The grant required it's that we meet the 500 storm for uh 500 year storm surge.

So the grant per the grant, the elevation of the first um habitable level would have been 28 NAVD in order to be able to make that space usable functional for the work that's going to be done in it.

We elevated it to 30 uh NAVD.

So that's that's kind of where the whole elevations came from.

Um, and again, it was driven by the grant and to make this a highly resilient uh facility.

Um that's that's kind of where we are.

So the building, this is a view uh from uh the east, looking towards the just kind of right off the entrance of bird's eye view.

Uh the little bit the building that uh is not not shown here would have been on kind of the west side.

This is another view of uh shows you where the the chillers are elevated as well.

Kind of just gives you a surround look at the facility.

So we're ready to start uh moving forward.

Again, we've got grant applications in for the other site.

Uh we've got the same team that's designing all three, the same team that was selected to construct all three.

Uh and the the facilities as we go forward are going to be very similar, so we're not going to be redoing the design.

The site's different, but the building itself is going to be the same.

So, with that, happy to answer any questions.

Okay.

Councilmember Givens.

Thank you very much, Chair.

Uh, I just want to thank you so much, Ro, for uh this hard work that has gone into this project.

This is a resilient project, and I think anytime we have resiliency projects like this happening in St.

Petersburg, we want to celebrate and highlight that.

So just wanted to take a moment to thank you for your hard work here.

Uh and I'm excited to see this one get started.

So thank you, Chair.

Thank you.

Move approval.

Second.

We have a motion and a second on F9.

Seeing as no other council members wishing to speak, Clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted, clerk please tally and announce the vote.

Mr.

Chair, motion to approve gentlemen.

F9 passes unanimously with Councilmember Driscoll being absent.

Okay, we are going to recess as city council and convene as the CRA.

We're going to go to CRA two.

I think we have Andrea joining us.

Good afternoon.

Good afternoon, Chair, Vice Chair members of City Council, Andrea Falvey, Economic and Workforce Development.

Thank you for the opportunity to bring forward today the proposed fiscal year 26 budget plan for the South St.

Petersburg Community Redevelopment Area or CRA.

In the FY26 operating budget, 20 million nine hundred twenty-one thousand nine hundred and ninety-one dollars in tax increment revenue is appropriated for use in the South St.

Petersburg CRA.

City administration is requesting that the community redevelopment agency recommends and city council approves, allocating that appropriation into the following categories to support the operational pillars of the CRA.

Approximately 7.6 million into the housing and neighborhood revitalization category, approximately 9.5 million into the business and commercial development category, 1.6 million into workforce development and education, and 2.2 million into operations and personnel.

City administration based this proposed budget on existing and projected commitments, as well as our planned introduction of new initiatives.

This next slide details the estimated tax increment financing or TIFF revenue for the South St.

Pete CRA, which includes 12.2 million in city TIF revenue, 7.8 million in county revenue, and approximately 127,000 in interest earned, bringing us to that total of approximately 20.9 million.

As we all know, the CRA has experienced tremendous growth since it was established in 2016.

During that initial year, the annual revenue was 468,000.

And you can see how it has grown exponentially every every year since.

The city revenue is represented by the darker green with the Pinellas County revenue marked by the lighter color on top.

In support of our housing and neighborhood revitalization pillar, approximately 4.5 million will be allocated to the affordable housing redevelopment loan program, which will provide multifamily developer incentives, debt service for future incentives, as well as support for accessory dwelling unit or ADU construction.

Approximately 3.1 million will be used to support other affordable single-family residential housing programs, which are listed on the slide.

The majority of this allocation will be utilized in our housing department's down payment assistance program, as they have identified this as one of the areas of greatest need for our residents.

We want to thank Administrator Foster, Dr.

Sliker, and the entire housing team for their partnership as it allows us to more thoughtfully and efficiently deploy these CRE resources into our community.

Funding for neighborhood services neighborhood planning program can also be found under this category.

Four neighborhood plans are in progress, and we have allocated 500,000 for Campbell Park neighborhood plan implementation, and we have another another 500,000 earmarked for neighborhood traffic plan implementation.

In support of our business and commercial development pillar, $2 million will be allocated towards the commercial corridor planning program, which will provide funding for improvements along 22nd Street South and 49th Street South.

Approximately $3.5 million will be allocated towards the CRA property acquisition program, which will provide resources to acquire properties and prepare development sites to promote housing, economic development, and revitalization of the CRA.

Four million dollars will be allocated for the economic development incentive program, which is the program that will be utilized to provide resources for construction or renovations of city-run facilities that align with the economic of economic development objectives of the CRA.

In support of our workforce development and education pillar, we are proposing 1.6 million dollars to be allocated allocated to our adult workforce development program.

The St.

Pete works program came to a close at the end of last month after five successful years.

The contract for the new adult workforce development program is nearing the end of the city's procurement process, and we look forward to bringing that contract forward for your review and approval before the end of the year.

We continue to be so proud to support the St.

Pete Youth Farm, and we're thrilled to see their new processing facility open this year.

The funding allocation for the youth farm will be provided using existing or rollover budget.

The $2.2 million allotted in the operations and personnel category include the positions the CRA supports and the economic and workforce development and housing departments, as well as the end team and our codes compliance department.

This allotment also supports our many communication and community engagement activities throughout the CRA.

This chart details the total budget for fiscal year 26 of approximately 51 million dollars, including the proposed rollover amount of approximately 30 million.

The proposed budget plan for the amount contemplated as rollover will be brought to city council for review and approval later this month.

This proposed budget plan was reviewed and unanimously recommended by the South St.

Petersburg CRA Citizens Advisory Committee on August 4 5th, excuse me.

In closing, I wanted to reiterate the request that the community redevelopment agency recommends and city council approve, allocating the approximately 20.9 million dollar increment appropriation into the four operational pillars of the CRA as presented on the screen.

Thank you again for the opportunity to bring this forward, and we await any comments or questions you might have.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you, and thank you for the presentation.

Um I know that they and I had kind of had this discussion on the one-on-ones.

There are so many different programs in there.

And like is are you all working on making it simpler to kind of track what the different grant programs are, you know, the names and all that?

Because it's so easy to get them confused.

It is, it is, and there's so many programs or projects that kind of nest up under the overarching program name.

Right.

Um, so we understand that.

So, yes, we do, you know, both internally, um, we keep a robust tracking sheet of all the projects that are happening, and then we do, of course, you know, endeavor to explain it in our communication engagement, make sure that our citizens and our businesses know that you know what program they are actually eligible for, like they know that they need to fix their home or they need something for their business, and we make sure that that they can understand what program they can go after.

James, I don't know if you have any CU, I don't know if you have anything to add, because you had the we you were at the one-on-one.

Absolutely.

So uh to answer your question, Councilmember Hannah was Vice Chair Handwitz.

We actually plan to go through a process to rename these programs to make them uh more easily to identify and by the name you would know exactly what they do, and there are some names that are very close.

So is our plan to go through a process to change the names and make it clear what the program is simply by the name.

So that is something that we'll be embarking on very shortly.

Yes.

I think, and and that's the only thing I just wanted to make sure because I think it makes it simpler for us and for those that are applying and everyone that's dealing with it to know exactly what the program is about.

So we agree.

The names are confusing to us as well.

Yeah, thank you.

Thank you.

Uh Councilmember Givens.

Thank you very much, Vice Chair.

Um, and thank you so much for your presentation, Andrea.

Um, I just was wondering do we have an update on the hiring of our new CRA program manager.

Well, I what I can.

We did have um a gentleman that was poised to start with us, and right at the end of that process, um, he did decide to take another position.

So I'll let Administrator Corbett talk a little bit about what our next steps are.

Yeah, so this the just recently the individual that we had selected for that position, they actually uh reported to work for the first two days and informed us that they had got another position in another part of the uh in the area.

So we are looking to fill that position.

We're going to go back to the existing pool uh there or whereas another candidate that we identified that we believe is viable, so we will explore that and and try to bring that forward as quickly as possible.

Thank you, Mr.

Corbett.

I appreciate that.

Um I just want to make sure we we do try to get that position filled um with someone who's gonna stay um as soon as possible, sooner rather than later, because I think that position is is vital um to the viability of the CRA programs and projects.

Um, as you said, Andrew, it's a lot to to manage and to try to mitigate, you know.

And and I think when we talk about residents not knowing which programs are there, that position um is imperative to make sure that there isn't a gap in communication to make sure that we do have those boots on the ground, outreach engagement.

Um, so I I would like to stay updated there.

I do have some ideas, so hopefully I can speak with you, Mr.

Corbett, regarding where we can look there.

Um also I just wanted to talk for a moment about the workforce portion um of this CRA uh grants.

So, excuse me, the CRA TIFF.

So, one of the things I was hoping that we could do is perhaps either work with the youth farm or the end team uh to see if there was some sort of internship opportunity there, specifically for college students, high school seniors and juniors.

Um I I don't know if this is something that you all have already discussed, but I would love for the conversation to be expanded to see if we could utilize funds like this from the CRA to help those high school seniors and residents and even college students in the area who may be looking for employment opportunity within city government.

Uh so just wanted to bring that idea up.

Thank you.

Thank you so much, Chair.

Thank you.

Move approval.

Second.

We have a motion and a second on CRA two.

Seeing as no other council members wishing to speak, clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted, clerk, please tally and announce the vote.

Mr.

Chair, motion to approve a gem C R E two passes unanimously.

Okay, thank you.

We're gonna adjourn as the CRA and reconvene a city council, and now we've got F six.

Move approval, second.

We have a motion and a second on F six, seeing as no other council members wishing to speak.

Clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted, clerk please tally and announce the vote.

Thanks so much, Andrea.

Thanks, everybody.

Okay, we're gonna go into new business for the afternoon.

G1, Councilmember Gabby.

Thank you, Chair.

Conversation would include but not be limited to elimination of third-party designation for individual buildings or structures, the elimination of the potentially eligible property lists, and a review of the current voting threshold for historic district designation.

And I so move.

Okay.

Uh council member.

Oh, excuse me, we have public comment.

Let's go to public comment first.

Peter Belmont, please approach other podium, state your name and address.

You'll have three minutes to address city council.

Good afternoon again, Peter Belmont, 103 Wadwood Lane Southeast.

I'm speaking on behalf of Preserve the Berg today, and Mr.

Leto, our executive director was unable to attend.

Um I know he was just on the uh chamber trip to uh Charleston, had an opportunity to speak to Brandy regarding the matter.

Um but I guess the message I want to leave is that I think we feel it even though this is a referral item, it may be a bit premature.

And I think the first issue, I'm not sure any but where anybody's at on what is referred to Senate Bill 180, it is basically um at least what I consider our crazy legislative uh act to kind of prohibit LDR amendments by any local government.

And what is prohibited is any proposal or adoption of a more restrictive or burdensome ordinance.

And I would suggest to you that uh any change that reduces your current options or adds new standards is subject to challenge.

And of course, just to make sure that uh the legislature wanted to make their point, they basically changed what we call legal standing, who can challenge something and said anybody can challenge a city action if they move forward in contravention of that.

And if they prevail, you're gonna pay their attorney's fees.

So it's pretty chilling for local government.

So I think that's the first thing why it's maybe a little premature.

Um I would also note that it wasn't that many years ago, I think it was five years ago.

You kind of did a pretty solid look at the third party issue, decided not to do away with it, made substantial changes to the procedure, and I don't believe you've had a third party application since.

So I think a little bit is uh, you know, in that regard at least a solution looking for a problem.

Are there changes that should be made to the ordinance?

Sure.

Um, but I think it would help to have a little more maybe public outreach and and input from the CPPC, even before you make the subcommittee referral.

Um and then the last you know, piece I would just add is I mean, I know there's been uh an internal push by the chamber to to kind of push forward some of these changes, and again I think it would help to have some more stakeholder uh participation and input, public input now, perhaps through the CPPC before you go forward with the subcommittee.

So thank you for your attention and uh and I know we'll continue having discussions.

Absolutely.

Thank you, Councilmember Floyd.

Thank you.

Uh yeah, I think that there are probably changes that could be made to uh our uh historic preservation rules, but the ones contemplated in this new business item, I just I don't support.

I am strongly in support of our uh historic preservation work here.

I uh am frustrated by uh something that I saw last time when we went through Mirror Lake.

It seemed like then the people who were upset about Mirror Lake pivoted to attacking third party designation, which wasn't what Mirror Lake was.

And so I I I just uh I will happily have this conversation, but I won't be supportive of it today.

Yeah, thank you.

Thank you.

Councilmember Driscoll.

I kind of came here to say the same thing.

Um while I may not be supportive of the examples of changes that were were given in the new business item, I do think that we should have a healthy discussion about um other um potential changes.

And um, you know, if nothing else, um approach these subjects with an open mind.

We have time before the committee meeting to get input from the community and be able to have a healthy discussion about it.

So I'll be I'll be supportive of this, and I look forward to what outcomes might uh lie ahead.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Councilmember Fix Sanders.

Thank you.

I'm in the same position as Councilmember Driscoll.

Um, but I do um always consider that, and I know when I first became a council member, um, we will, as council member just said, keep an open mind and is valid enough to have a conversation whether you support it or not, I may learn something, right?

So um I'm in the same place as being willing to at least talk about it.

Now, if it's something that we already know need to move forward, and of course I'm not gonna support it.

But this is worth the conversation, so um, that's why I would I gladly second this so we can talk about it.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you.

Vice Chair Hanowitz.

Thank you, Chair.

So I I just want to touch a little bit on the Senate Bill 180.

Um and see if legal has an opinion on what was said about Seventh Bill 18.

I know there is a there is language about whether you consider something that is much more burdensome or restrictive.

I don't know if this falls within.

I just want to see what if legal has an opinion on what was said.

We would have to take a look at it.

Okay.

But in terms of having the conversation in the committee, I we're fine with that right now.

Yeah.

I mean, I know that I have a few items that are in committee that are affected by Senate Bill 180, and it's kind of delayed having the conversation because it's kind of pointless, especially the ones that are really on point.

So I'd just be interested to hear what legal says.

In terms of having I have no problem having a conversation, you know, the chamber came and reached out.

I obviously I wasn't supportive about it then, but I'm not gonna say no to having a conversation about it.

Um I think that's fine to have a conversation.

I did have the same questions in terms of didn't we just consider some of this stuff a few years ago and didn't we go down this road?

But I'm not just gonna not have the conversation because of it.

But I just wanted to put that out there.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Councilmember Gabbard.

Um regarding uh legal and you know, kind of conversations with them.

I have uh started those preliminary conversations.

We um, you know, it this is an initiative that was kind of started by the chamber.

Um, I think that's very clear.

And uh there were some red line versions that they had gone back and forth with several times, and instead of attaching that to this new business item that is more appropriate for committee that has already been given to legal for their review.

So all of that will be contemplated, including any implications with Senate Bill 180 long before we would ever make it to a committee.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Uh just quickly, um I'll just comment spending three years on CPPC and then now um finishing up four years on council.

Um I totally agree at the very least that we need to have a conversation about third party designations.

I'm not a fan, and so uh I just with everybody sharing a little bit of their opinion.

I thought I would do the same.

So we have a motion and a second on G1.

Seeing as no other council members wishing to speak, clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted, clerk, please tally and announce the vote.

Mr.

Chairmotion to approve a June item G1 passes 7 to 1 with Council Member Floyd voting no.

Council members Driscoll, Fix Sanders, Gavert Gurdis, Givens, Cannon Wiss, and Harding voting yes.

Thank you so much.

Okay, we're gonna go into G2.

Councilmember Driscoll.

Um thank you.

This one is this new business item is respectfully requesting a referral to the economic and workforce development committee for discussion on a referendum during the 2026 general election to allow for a longer lease term for expansion of the maritime and defense technology hub as part of the hub two plan.

Currently, um, the current hub is um leased to the innovation district, and um, so we'll talk about we'll have an opportunity to talk about what the plans are, what the hub is doing right now, what the future looks could look like, and um why it's important to our economic development.

With that, I'll move approval.

Second.

Okay, we'll go to public comment.

Allison Barlow, Jason Mathis, please approach on the podium, state your name and address.

You have three minutes to address city council.

Good afternoon, council members.

Alison Barlow, 450 8th Avenue Southeast St.

Petersburg.

I would like to support this idea of taking this conversation into committee.

I think it's an important discussion for all of us to have.

The Maritime and Defense Tech Hub, as you guys uh all helped create, has been around now four years, if you can imagine that.

It's been a tremendous success.

It was a unique opportunity when it was created to activate the port of St.

Petersburg and to repurpose a city asset that was vacant.

Um since its launch, the hub has incubated over 25 organizations, most tech small businesses, several of which were already here in our region, and some that came because of the facility.

All needed our assistance and our resources to grow.

Many of these companies uh you have read about and seen in the news, and you know as well as I do, how the tremendous work that they're doing.

At the beginning of 2025, the hub was home to 82 full-time employees and 102 employees who considered that a secondary work location.

Some of them may be full time often traveling or also work from home.

So that's how we classify that.

We also have provided water access for testing and demonstration purposes with our government partners, which has really pivoted a lot of the work in the maritime and the defense tech areas and brought it to the forefront of St.

Petersburg's economic development.

Through all of this, we've hosted committee um community members through events like our tech exchanges and also frequent tours with youth, so they can get an idea and an example of future careers.

But we're in a really great position right now.

It's exactly what we hoped for.

Our tenants are thriving, they're creating jobs and developing technology that really make a difference.

The challenge is we've outgrown our space already.

And we're having not only current tenants who hope to expand, but there's a waiting list of organizations that would like to join.

Much of this momentum is coming from the maritime technology sector, from coastal resiliency research to advanced hurricane monitoring.

Things that we care about in our community, and the potential is growing.

Expanding the hub now would allow us to meet the future needs of the tenants while welcoming these new partners into our innovation community.

Longer leases mean the deeper investment in equipment collaboration and the impact.

So I appreciate your consideration on this.

Thank you.

Good afternoon.

Jason Mathis.

I'm the CEO of the St.

Petersburg Downtown Partnership, which is located at 244 2nd Avenue North.

And a board member of the St.

Petersburg Innovation District.

Not using city money, using city land, but not using city money.

But we've identified federal, state, and county funds that could go to help build this new facility.

And I think that that's something probably our entire community can get behind.

The idea of trying to find ways where nonprofit, for profit, academic, and government research can happen to help our community and other coastal communities thrive.

So I encourage you to move forward with this.

Thank you.

Councilmember Floyd.

Thank you.

But the they mentioned, you know, I was in the defense industry for a long time before I was here.

And I uh recognize the problems both locally and politically with them.

But uh I support them.

I just don't want to give any special treatment to them.

But what I'm hearing from them is that that's not the focus of this anyway.

So uh I just wanted to thank you for coming in, uh letting us know that.

Uh not to say I've gone out and seen the work that's going on there and some of the defense companies and they're doing great work.

It's just uh that's not what I'm here for.

So uh I appreciate the speakers coming in and giving us that information.

I appreciate the uh new business item.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you.

Uh Councilmember Driscoll, thanks for your explanation at the beginning.

My concern was that the conversation was gonna be solely around um the referendum, but glad to hear it's gonna be a much more robust conversation.

So thank you for uh clarifying that.

Uh I'm sorry, do we have a motion and a second?

Okay, we have a motion and a second on G2.

Seeing there's no other council members wishing to speak, Clerk.

Could you please open the game for voting?

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted, clerk please stallion announced the vote.

Okay, thank you.

All right, we're gonna move into council committee reports.

We have H1, Councilmember Gabriel.

All right, we have Lair.

Sorry, I had to pull my page here.

Um, respectfully requesting city council approval of a resolution confirming the 2026 City of St.

Petersburg state legislative agenda, and I so move.

We have a motion and a second on H1.

Seeing as no other council members wishing to speak.

Clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted, clerk please tell and announce the vote.

Mr.

Chairmotion to approve a gentleman H1 passage unanimously.

Thank you.

All right, we're gonna go to H2.

This is my item.

I am respectfully requesting the administration to move forward with the developing a scope of work in preparation for a request for proposal for the downtown improvement districts clean team.

Councilmember Floyd.

Thank you.

Uh uh, I'm supportive of this, but I just wanted to say that um we've asked for a number of RFPs, and I will be paying attention to the order in which they come back.

Wanted to say that out loud for everyone.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Move approval.

We have a motion and a second on H2.

Seeing as no other council members wishing to speak.

Clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please any of your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted, clerk, please style and announce the vote.

Okay, council members, we've come to pause time.

You get all of a six-minute recess, and we're gonna come back at 5 01.

Council is in recess.

Okay, we will call city uh council back to order, and we're gonna move into public hearings, and we're gonna start with J one.

Move approval.

Second.

We have a motion and a second on J one.

Seeing there's no other council members wishing to speak.

Clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing is all present, council members have voted.

Clerk, please tell you an announce the vote.

Mr.

Chair, motion to approve a general J one passes unanimously.

Okay, thanks, Joe.

Good seeing Joe.

All right, we're gonna move into J two.

Proposed ordinance number six twenty-two H an ordinance of the city of St.

Petersburg.

Amending chapter twelve of the city code to allow the the building officials to waive certain fees for post-disaster emergency permits, providing for servability and providing an effective date.

Council members, we want the presentation.

We're gonna save you some time, I think.

That sounds good to me.

We have a motion and a second on the floor.

Seeing as no other council members wishing to speak.

Clerk, could you please open the machine for voting?

Council members, please enter your votes.

Seeing as all present council members have voted, clerk, please tell you and announce the vote.

Thanks, Don.

Thanks, Heather.

Okay, we are gonna move into open forum.

We have one speaker, Mr.

Chair.

Jonathan Hackworth, please go to either podium.

State your name and address.

For the record, you have three minutes to address City Council.

Welcome.

Hello, sir.

Um I'm here to speak on F two and F ten.

I guess I already missed it.

They said it wasn't public.

Um I just my name is Jonathan Hackworth, love at 2510 Central Avenue.

I just wanted to say I really support, I don't care if we have to raise taxes, please make this ferry happen.

I really uh enjoy it.

We use the butt.

We uh we ride the um we use the clear water ferry.

I ride the buses every single day.

I mean, I have a car.

The PSD has a really big help to my community.

I mean awesome.

Pretty much it.

Thanks for coming in.

Yes.

Okay, we're gonna close open forum and move into announcements.

Council members, any announcements?

Councilmember Driscoll.

Thank you.

Not too much an announcement.

I just wanted to ask um Rob if um you if you could do an announcement of your own.

Tell us what's the latest on the Science Center deal.

Um, thank you for uh asking Council Member.

I didn't mean to catch you off guard.

I thought I no, no, that's fine.

So um, we provided the agreement to Mr.

Hamilton.

Um, he had a couple comments he sent back.

Uh, we're addressing those, and we've been in contact with him verbally, making very good progress.

Uh, shouldn't be much longer to come to final uh agreement on the uh agreement itself.

So that's wonderful.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you.

Councilmember Gibbons.

Thank you very much, Chair.

Uh, just a couple announcements.

I'll try to be brief.

Uh this Saturday, there's a lot of events happening in the community.

We have the community picnic land.

Uh that's gonna be going on at Albert Wittett Park starting at two o'clock till five o'clock.

Uh, also over your West St.

Pete um partner over there, uh, Mr.

Chair Park, they're gonna be having their 56th annual evening of purpose.

This is us black tie gala.

That's gonna be at the St.

Pete Coliseum, and then also at McCabe United Methodist Church at 3 o'clock on Saturday, the Bethune Cookman Gospel Choir will be performing uh to help raise money for the church's 120th anniversary.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Um, just quickly, uh Councilmember Gabbard, the mayor, and myself were all in Charleston the last uh few days.

It really was a very good trip to see kind of what they've got going on, um, how they're doing, some of the things they're doing in comparison to some of the things that we're doing.

Uh quickly, I'll just comment.

I'm very proud of the work St.

Petersburg does.

You know, that city is like 400 years old.

No, not 400, 200 years older than us.

And uh, I think we're doing pretty good when when you look at what they've got going on and some of the things they're dealing with and and with us, but we also learned a lot too.

Uh quickly, I also just wanted to say thank you to all the community stakeholders that went on that trip, investing their time, their energy into the city of St.

Petersburg, trying to make it a better place.

I'm just very appreciative of everybody that attended, and I'm very appreciative of Councilmember Gabbard and the mayor for going as well.

Uh last but not least, I just wanted to say a big thank you to all the veterans out there.

Tuesday is Veterans Day, and so uh just wanted to make sure I bring that up.

I am the grandson of uh two veterans, and so um just very appreciative and uh thank you for the service for everybody that's listening and might listen to this in the future.

Just know we are indebted to you.

Uh and and I'm very thankful for you.

Councilmember Givens.

Thank you uh very much, Sheridan.

I'm sorry since you brought it up.

I just wanted to extend the invitation to uh our council members if you all are available Saturday morning uh from 8 a.m.

to 1130 a.m.

30, 1130 a.m.

excuse me.

We will be at Lincoln Cemetery at 600 uh 58th Street North, planting flags for veterans.

So if you're available, we'll be doing two cemeteries, Lincoln Cemetery and Royal Palm South adjacent to it.

So that's about 10 acres that we have to cover, and we'd be happy to have everybody if you're available.

Thank you.

My wife's uh grandmother and grandfather are at Royal Palm.

So thank you for doing that.

Okay, if there's nothing else for the good of the order, council members thanks for a great day.

We're adjourned.

Oh thank you, Chair.

Sorry.