Good evening, everyone.

It's six o'clock, and I'll call the um June 8th, 2026 meeting of the ordinance and license committee to order.

Um we are missing two members.

Alderman Wateska was unable to uh attend.

Um I'm chairing the meeting in his absence.

And also Alder Evert was unable to be here this evening.

All other members of the committee are present.

Um three members does constitute a quorum, so we are continuing with the meeting.

Um moving on to item two is public comment.

Um we did have one person sign up for public comment, and uh certainly if there's any other members in the audience um who are interested in speaking about an item.

If you're here for a specific license, you'll be called up at that time.

Um we'll follow the same rules we do with city council for public comment.

Please come forward, state your name and address.

You'll have three minutes to uh speak.

And uh our sign-up uh member is Stephanie Fiddlin.

Stephanie, the floor is yours.

Okay, can you hear me okay?

Yes.

Well, good evening.

Uh, my name is Stephanie Fiddlin.

I'm a resident here in the city of Waukesha.

I'd like to thank this committee for taking on the important task of addressing the safe usage of motorized e-bikes and e-scooters in our community.

As a community member, I've seen a dramatic increase in the presence of children on e-bikes and e-scooters.

Often I see them as I'm walking on sidewalks and walking paths, or I have to step off the sidewalk or path to allow the bike to pass.

I've seen a man in a motorized wheelchair with his service dog have to exit the sidewalk to allow a child on an e-bike to pass, narrowly avoiding a collision as the dog scrambled to react to the situation.

The child tried to avoid hitting the wheelchair, and the owner tried to avoid running over his own dog's paws.

The reality is that the motor on an e-bike can provide up to 20 miles per hour of assist without any effort of the rider, making them two to nearly three times faster than a regular bicycle.

Speed is distance over time.

As fat at faster speeds, you have less time to make a decision as an operator of a motorized vehicle.

Often the riders are young and have not been educated on the rules of the road and don't have a driver's license.

This lack of experience makes it even more challenging for them to make a safe decision with a short amount of reaction time.

I've witnessed this as well as a drive as well as a driver with e-bikes riding in the center of the road, crossing the middle line, even doing wheelies.

Often they don't anticipate right lane drivers turning right at intersections, and they continue going straight on the right side of the turning vehicle, sometimes creeping up on the blind spot before the driver's even aware they're there.

In my role as an emergency department nurse, um, I can speak firsthand on the increased number of incidents with injury involving e-bikes and e-scooters.

The nature of these injuries is often more severe than a regular bike because of the increased speed at which the injury occurred.

My greatest fear is we head into summer is the call for a child with life-threatening injuries as a result of the use of e-bikes and e-scooters.

It's for this reason that I urge you to pass the proposed ordinance for prohibition of certain powered vehicles on sidewalks.

While some may question this ordinance and say, my child isn't old enough or mature enough to ride in the street.

Might I suggest that your child isn't old enough or mature enough to be operating this motorized vehicle?

Because while I'm concerned about the call for an injured child, I also worry about the call for an injured elderly person who wasn't able to maneuver the quick exit off the sidewalk and suffers a fall with a head injury or broken bone.

Sidewalks are for pedestrians, roadways are for motorized vehicles, and motorized vehicles capable of 28 miles per hour are not for inexperienced operators.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Um is there any other person here who wanted to speak during the public comment section?

All right.

Seeing no one jump up.

Um we'll move on to item three, which is approval of minutes.

We have minutes from our last meeting on May 11th.

Were there any um changes or corrections necessary?

Seeing some shaking heads.

Is there any objection to approving those by unanimous consent this evening?

Hearing no objection, we'll consider those approved by unanimous consent.

Um we are going to adjust our agenda just a little bit this evening.

Yeah.

Go ahead and follow.

Follow the agenda as printed.

Okay.

We are not going to adjust our agenda this evening.

We will move on to item four, which is licenses, and our first um item under licenses is our invited bartender applications.

We have six applicants invited in this evening.

Um first one is Malik Christian.

Is Malik here?

Hello, hello.

How are we doing?

Good.

Malik, you were invited in.

Looks like just because of uh you have a possession charge on your record from January of twenty-six.

Um would you like to speak to that as it pertains to your license application?

Um all I can really say that it was a mistake and it won't happen again.

Um it's just been a little difficult recently.

We just trying to get the ball rolling on his license so we can get to where we need to be.

Any questions or comments from the uh committee?

You're applying for a license to work at it, looks like crazy golf.

Is that correct?

Yes.

Okay.

And you're currently employed there, or is your employment subject to this license approval?

No, I'm currently employed there.

Okay.

How long have you been working there?

About a year.

A year, okay.

Are they oh sorry, I have another question for you.

So um, do they know about the controlled substance charge?

They do.

Okay.

Was it a citation or it was a citation?

Okay.

Sorry for all the questions.

I know that this is probably uncomfortable.

I apologize, but I'm just trying to get my arms around the whole situation.

Was it Pod?

Yes.

Okay.

I'm going to make the motion to approve it.

Approve the application.

I'll second the motion.

So we have a motion and a second.

Um other questions or comments before we vote.

All right.

Please vote when it's before you or voice vote if it doesn't come up.

It didn't come up for me.

Wigderson is an aye.

So that item did pass unanimously.

That will go to our next council meeting, which is next Tuesday night.

It'll be on our consent agenda because it passed unanimously.

Um you are not required to be there.

Um if you any member could take an item off of consent agenda if they're concerned about your record.

So if you can be there, it might be in your best interest, but you're certainly not required to be.

Okay.

Okay.

Any questions?

No.

Once it passes common council, the clerk off the clerk's office will reach out for the final steps for your license.

Okay.

Correct.

Okay.

Thank you so much.

You're welcome.

Thank you.

All right.

Our next invite is Mariah Riskowitz.

I apologize if I butchered that name.

Is Mariah here?

All right.

Um that is Mariah's second invite, it looks like.

Can we hold her over until our next ordinance and license meeting and give her her third invite?

All right.

Moving right along.

Um, our next one is Angela Lervey.

Is Angela here?

And your agent if they're present.

All right, Angela.

We are applying for a license to work at the destination.

I do see that you have a DUI on your record from 2025.

Again, would you like to speak to that as it pertains to your license application?

Yeah, I think I just had a lapse in judgment that evening, and I have taken all the props proper steps to take accountability for that and to rectify that and to continue to do right by my license and by myself.

Okay.

And you have an you have uh a couple people behind you.

Um I assume one or both of them are representing the destination.

Correct.

Um could you state your names for the record and anything you'd like to speak on behalf of her application?

My name is Destiny Ramos.

I am the agent and uh business partner with Mr.

Stearns at the destination.

Do you guys have any comment that you wanted to make?

Um I've known Angela for 20 years, and I have known her as a bartender as well for 20 years.

She's worked with us for six years.

She's never had any infractions in her work skill or anything disciplinary.

We do not let anyone drink at our establishment.

We've had no other issues, and as long as I've known her, she's had no other issues as well.

Okay.

I will point out that this is a renewal application, not a new application.

Okay.

Just to be clear, you said that you don't allow anybody to drink while working.

Correct.

I'm fine.

I'm trying to sure.

I'll make a motion to approve the application.

I'll second it.

Okay.

Um we have a motion and a second.

Any other comments or questions before we vote?

All right, please vote when it's before you.

Woulderson aye.

All right.

That motion did pass unanimously.

Uh, same thing I said before.

That'll be on our consent agenda at council next Tuesday.

Um you're not required to be there, but certainly any member of the council could remove it if they have a concern about your um your record.

So if you can be there, it might be in your best interest.

Um, assuming it passes counsel, the clerk's office will be in contact uh probably the next day.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you.

Uh next applicant is Joshua Shoemaker or Schumacher.

Is Joshua here?

Not seeing anybody jump up to answer for that.

This is Joshua's first invite, so can we hold him over till the next um council or next ordinance and license meeting?

Uh next one is Sarah Silver.

Is Sarah here?

And your agent if they're present.

All right, Sarah.

Um, Sarah is applying for an operator's license, primarily employed at Woodman's.

Um, you were invited in because of uh looks like an OWI or DUI in uh March of 2020.

Is there anything you'd like to speak to on your behalf for your uh application?

Um I did write several cards, but I'm gonna try and keep it simple.

Um so I want to work in the liquor department because the hours will allow me to be at home with my small children more.

Um we have a three-year-old and a six and a half month old, they're right outside.

Um, since becoming a mother, my priorities priorities have completely changed.

I cannot afford to take risks with my job, the law, or who I work for.

Um my family relies on my stability, which makes me incredibly cautious and a compliant professional.

Um that being said, the decisions I make will always reflect the well-being of my family and myself, so I can always be there for them.

Um thank you for writing that.

Um, and I'm gonna immediately move to motion to approve the license.

I'll second that.

Um your agent is here.

I'll give you an opportunity to speak if you wish before we vote.

But honestly, I think she said enough.

All right.

Um other questions or comments before we vote.

Could you speak say your name for the record?

Um, my name is Nicole Lazner.

I would be the aging for the Walkershaw Woodmans.

For woodman's okay.

Thank you.

Yep.

All right.

Please vote when it's before you or voice vote.

And that did pass unanimously.

Um, did you hear what I said about the uh council being on the next council meeting and consent agenda and all that same applies to you?

I read the email, so yeah.

All right.

Thank you for being here this evening.

All right, and our last invited bartender this evening is uh Sean Stefan.

Sean, if you're here, please come forward.

And your agent if they're present.

Hi guys.

Sean is applying for a license primarily for Spring City Restaurant and Rocks Bar.

Um, Sean, you uh I see a lot of a lot of things highlighted here.

Um an OWI in September of 22, being the most recent um uh I think directly a um significant offense.

Um what would you like to say on your own behalf uh as it regards to your license?

Um well, first uh the the big the stuff that you see prior was when I was like 17 to 20, and uh had some anger issues because of you know family stuff.

I actually learned in criminal thinking class how what caused and triggered all that, and as you can see, my record was absolutely spotless after that, except for that stupid OWI that actually happened in my neighborhood.

I had a burnt out tail light.

I did blow right over the legal limit, but it wasn't my speeding, it wasn't my driving.

I I didn't cross it and literally has three blocks away, which should not have been driving.

Um and it was just I I regret that that that decision, like it it makes me very upset because I've I drive a lot of miles.

I've driven a lot of miles for many many years at night, whatever, and it kind of like really messed me up.

But as far as all that stupid stuff when I was a kid, like uh that that is completely out of me.

And and you know, the journey that I took because of all that made me personally in the OWI.

I had zero, you could see my record, I had zero infractions after the age of you know 31 years ago.

And the OWI, I actually spent a couple hundred dollars and I have a breathalyzer and my you know, a uh portable one that that is like I send it every year to get recalibrated.

So if I do have a couple beers with my buddies, I'm always, you know, I am there's not gonna be another one ever again because that one really it kind of burned me because you just I always preached and practiced everybody has a good time, but everybody gets home safe and no one drinks over the limit.

And it it happened to me with a burnt out tail eight, so my fault it was horrible, but it's a mistake I I won't make ever again.

Okay.

Thank you.

Um your agent is present.

Uh do you want to state your name for the record and anything you'd like to say on his behalf as the uh agent or manager of the bar?

Absolutely.

My name is Dino Giacomintonio.

I'm one of the owners of Spring City and Rox Bar.

Um I'm not here very often vouching for uh employees.

Uh my last time here that I vouched for an employee, she's still with us, and she's been here now 10 years in the bar.

I like to think of myself as a good judge of character, and most importantly, I have a business to run.

And um I my friendships don't in interject or interfere with my ability to run my business.

Um I've actually known for quite a while, uh, first as a customer, uh, then as a friend, and now as an employee.

Uh his uh his level of character is unmatched and is perfect fit for the customers and the clientele that we serve.

Personality-wise, I wouldn't ask for anything better behind my bar representing my business, and I certainly take full accountability of anything he does behind my bar when he's inside my my business as a friend as a business owner as a and as an employer.

Okay, thank you.

Um, I did just want to say that you know, just to support what you said, Sean.

Yes, all other infractions other than the OWI, again, which is from 2022, um, so not terribly recent.

You were um 1995 and before, so well in the past.

I make a motion to approve the license for Sean Stefan.

A second we have a motion and a second.

Um any other questions or comments before we vote?

Go ahead, Eric.

How long Sean, I have how long have you worked at the restaurants?

Uh three three months.

Oh, three months.

Three months so far.

Okay.

All right, thank you.

Okay.

That application did pass unanimously through the committee.

Did you hear what I commented to the other applicants this evening about the uh moving on to council next week, Tuesday?

Can I so do you think because of the 1995 and all that?

Do you think I should show up?

Because I would if it if you think it would help, or do you think it would Doreen?

I I can never speak for the other 12 members of council who aren't here this evening.

Um again, any one of them could look at this and say um no way they may get the decision about that.

The thing the great thing is consent agenda is done immediately in the council chamber, so you will know right away if once we know the mayor will say is there anything for consent agenda?

And then it's passed, and then it's done.

So I'll swing up here then.

And I appreciate you guys.

I really do.

Thank you.

Thank you guys.

Yeah, thank you.

Thank you guys.

Thank you.

Okay.

Nope, that's fine.

Okay.

Those are our invited bartender applications or operators' licenses from this evening.

Um, we had one application that was on the agenda but not invited.

Um, and that is a uh for Carolyn Henson from Hannons.

Um, I believe she has some things on her record, but nothing um in the last 12 years.

So I'm assuming that that was uh just no recency, and that's why she was on our agenda, but not uh not invited because of the age of the infractions.

Um I will make a motion to approve the application for Carolyn Henson.

I will second that.

Okay.

Um comments or questions before we vote?

Okay, please vote when it's before you and that passed unanimously as well.

All right, moving right along.

That takes us to other applications.

Um we had one application that was invited this evening.

This is for tobacco outlet and liquor um Narinder Singh.

Good evening, everybody.

Hello.

Hi.

Okay.

So you were invited in, I believe, because of a failed compliance check.

Sorry, I got a lot of paper in front of me here.

So there was a failed compliance check on November 6th of 2025 with respect to the sale of tobacco products.

Could you speak to I guess the circumstances of that and any steps that you've done to um mitigate that and ensure that it doesn't occur again in your business?

Sorry, so this is I have a right.

Misunderstanding this happen is right.

If you don't mind a little bit of helping my brother too.

Okay.

His English is very more better for me.

Okay, sure.

Thank you.

I'm just gonna translate him.

That's fine.

Sure, that's fine.

Oh my brother C O Navasio TV.

This is just a problem where you can restroom.

Can I translate for him?

Absolutely.

So uh he's saying that uh he had he has been always checking the IDs and everything uh all the time, but that was one incident where you know uh that this happened uh accidentally where you know he thought that the uh uh the guy that came to purchase was old enough, but it turned out that he was not old enough.

And after that, uh from last six months, seven months, uh he's very uh cautious about that, you know, to check IDs and everything.

Plus there is uh ID scanners also where he can scan the ID and to make sure the the you know the person is over age.

Can you ask him um are the I were the ID scanners added within the last six months uh since this infraction?

ID scanner last uh china pelecki other than we had.

So just to happen that luck that have I go to restroom use is my little brother.

He learns me.

I'm all the time over there and check very gently over there very nice to any junk, but uh better luck there is uh check ID but no data make sure that happened just wrong way.

But before I'm very careful and proper everything, no complaint again.

I try my best for you.

And the future I'm very prepared.

Okay, thank you.

Other questions from the comment now here, go ahead.

So the ID check scanner that you have now, is that being used every single time Joe ID scanner, a marajota and a P O S A ID scanner, a B check cuto, harbat.

Okay.

Almostly cartensor.

Oh, sorry for that.

Almostly checking every time, but bad luck uh eighty to ninety percent and uh older people come to my store.

When is the new pupil, young people?

I see a kid and a very prepare.

Okay.

Thank you.

Any other questions, comments?

Okay.

Go ahead.

Um, given that uh we appreciate you coming in this evening.

Um given the single um infraction, we're not in a position to consider you know uh not renewing your license.

Um should there be additional um compliance check failures in the future and that would reach to a number that we would consider that would be a concern and something the committee would have to consider.

So um keep keep doing what you're doing and keep up the due diligence in the future to so to avoid future invites before the committee.

Um with that I will make a motion to approve the uh renewal for tobacco outlet and liquor.

I'll second the motion.

Okay.

We have a motion and a second.

Any other questions or comments before we vote?

Please vote when it's before you.

And that did pass unanimously.

That will go to our city council meeting on uh next week, Tuesday, and then the clerk's office will be in contact once that's approved.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So can we just do a no?

I don't believe so.

Let me just state.

All right, that was our one invited application.

Um we do have a whole stack of other applications that are up for renewal or approval this evening.

Um I'm assuming there were no concerns from the clerk's office on any of these, hence no invites.

That is correct.

All right.

Any concerns from members of the committee?

Question for just clarification, because I saw the um looks like the new cobblestone hotel.

Didn't we apply uh approve that at the last council?

So just to clarify that is their renewal right away, just because their original their first application butted up so closely to the expiration date because all of the liquor licenses expire on the same date every year, so it's their renewal for the 2026-2027 season.

Thank you.

Perfect.

Looks like there are 69 total licenses.

Do we need to name every single one?

Um they are attached to the agenda.

Last meeting we said as long as they were attached, which I can confirm that they are, we can uh approve them in in mass.

So I am going to make a motion to approve all 69 licenses that are attached to the agenda as they are printed on there.

I'll second that motion.

Okay.

Thank you.

We have a motion and a second.

I assume there's no other questions or comments.

Please vote when it's before you.

And that did pass unanimously.

Moving right along.

Moving right along.

Okay.

That takes us to item five, which is our discussion and recommendation items this evening.

Um, we do have an item for a proposed regulation of powered scooters, bikes, and other vehicles on city sidewalks.

This is related to ordinance.

11.076E.

Uh, or I'm sorry, E 11.076 E vehicles on sidewalks.

Um Brian, I'm gonna turn this over to you if you want to speak to the other thing.

I'm sure by now you've read the memorandum, so I'll just kind of breeze through the high points here.

It was uh council member Doreen Wiggerson first approached me and uh asked that we start researching into the issue of these e-vehicles.

Uh since then, a number of other members of the council, including the mayor have also made that request.

We've been hearing about uh complaints coming in from uh well, a lot of different places.

Um we began researching this.

Um we began researching this, I think we pretty quickly came to uh the conclusion that a lot of the behavior that's being complained of and is uh unsafe out there is already addressed by existing state statutes.

But we found that a gap in this has to do with the use of scooters in particular e-scooters on sidewalks.

Uh, if you spend any time out on the sidewalks in Waukeshaw, you will know that the use of those is increased dramatically, and that they are fast.

Um so what we're proposing here is uh, unlike other communities in the area and around the state who have proposed very elaborate and comprehensive schemes towards regulating all of these various uh devices.

We are focusing at least initially on what is the main problem, and that is the e-powered devices on sidewalks.

Um already state law prohibits the use of vehicles on sidewalks.

State law does not consider e-scooters to be a vehicle, but it does give the uh municipalities the express authority to prohibit their use on sidewalks, if that's what they want to do.

So that's really what we're proposing here tonight.

Um I would just add that if you spend any time at all on uh online shopping for these scooters, you will find right away that they're pretty inexpensive.

130, 150 bucks will get you an e-powered scooter, and by scooter I mean the two-wheel stand up with a T-type handlebar.

Um that kind of money will get you a scooter that's capable of going 25 miles per hour, and they're advertised as such.

Uh I was shocked to find out that the fastest scooter that was tested by a website specializing in scooters could do 91 miles per hour.

And there are quite a few of them that will go between 50 and 70 miles per hour.

Now, those are pretty expensive, and those are not the ones that parents are buying for young kids, but they are buying the 130 to 150 ones that'll go 25 and 25 on a sidewalk being piloted by a young kid is way too fast.

It's a dangerous speed.

It's much faster than pedaled bikes or uh you know, foot propelled scooters can do.

So that puts them into a whole new category as far as uh danger to pedestrians on sidewalks.

So we have a proposal before you sitting next to me is Michael Radovich, assistant city attorney who did a lot of the research into the complexities of the state law that apply to all of these uh various vehicles.

So I think I will just turn it over to him if he wants to take it from here and field questions that you have about this.

Uh yes, good evening.

I'm happy to answer uh any questions you might have.

Doreen, this is your this is your referral, so I'll give you the first crack.

I guess I speak to I'm sure we looked at other municipalities.

Are other municipal what other things have other municipalities so let me just I'm just gonna say this.

My referral was um based on actually you know, Brian made the comment about how other um alders came forward after I put the referral through.

My referral was actually based on um an email that we received from a constituent that they had sent to the entire common council about their concern about e-bikes, and um I was a little um well, you know, we don't email each other back and forth, obviously, um, but I didn't hear any response from other alders responding to this constituent, and then I saw this constituent also put it in the Facebook group, um, you know, one of the Facebook communities for Walkshaw talking about the e-bike thing, and then that was really what prompted me.

Like, obviously, as we're coming into the summer months, we have to address um the issues regarding e-bikes.

So, you know, I think when I was doing my own research, I was surprised, as you just mentioned, how fast some of these things can go.

And as a mom of kids that I brought up here, um, I was very um myself personally, I was very adamant about my kids staying out of the street, obviously making sure that when they're in the street that they obviously know the rules of the road, and I think the biggest thing for me is you've got kids that are that are playing, and I love that.

So that was really what prompted me to to do the referral to see what other municipalities are doing.

So I that's my first question are there other municipal what are other municipalities close to us doing I do know that the state has its own set of rules regarding um you know bikes I know that they there's been some um digital media out there regarding mopeds and motorcycles and all that different levels so I'm just curious to know what some of the other neighboring communities are doing regarding the e-bikes.

Yes so other uh communities there are some who are doing more comprehensive ordinances that detail uh a registration scheme uh some of the neighboring communities will detail uh you know the bicycles are allowed in this area but not this area uh they'll you know maybe not they'll regulate e-bikes but not electric scooters there is uh age requirements helmet requirements uh it's it's kind of wide ranging as to what other communities are doing uh so let me ask this what about um what have have we done any in what about enforcement so like we do have obviously some state statutes and things that are already on place what are we doing in the city prior to this about enforcement do we know any stats on pickets or citations or things that we've issued in the past I don't know any stats off the top of my head I will tell you uh I have worked with the police department in kind of wrapping our heads around exactly how the state regulations work.

It is a little complicated there are several different classes of e-bikes there's e-scooters off vehicle or off-road motor vehicles there are uh motor bicycles there's just all different kinds of things which make regulating them challenging so that's part of the usefulness of our ordinance here is it's just a broad regulation applies to everything.

And I think it's probably a first step right so maybe so I'm totally in favor of this I I know I was I love to read the Facebook comments because that's where the you get a lot of well it isn't it just common sense well no obviously since we have people that are driving those on the on the sidewalk.

So I'm absolutely in favor of this as a you know and let's see where it goes.

That's I just wanted to see what what the research found.

So I I think that this is great and I love it that you're in that we're incorporating all of the different not just e-bikes but scooters too I really appreciate what you've put together so far um especially with regards to you know things like um I think uh in the memo it was referred to as Barbie cars um but you know I grew up definitely with uh you know the little powered ride on things my my son has too so I'm glad we're still you know not worrying about those necessarily because I don't think those are the concern that folks really have so we're not worrying we're not gonna you know lock those out of our sidewalks because of I don't think those we want on the road either.

Um but also making sure that we're covering for mobility scooters I think that's a really good step making sure that we're making making an allowance for that or uh exception whatever you want to phrase that as um so I think that's really important.

I'm really glad to see that.

And I think you're right the technology and the affordability of that technology is changing dramatically and at a speed that I think a lot of folks really didn't think was going to happen.

The the the cost of motors um is dropping the power of those motors are dropping the size and power of battery packs again are the the packs are getting smaller they're getting cheaper they're getting more dense um so you're seeing higher speeds and that's I think isn't gonna slow down really in any time soon so I think this is a good first step I think um kind of echo uh Alderman Wicherson's uh yeah statement this is a good way to get us kind of on the road of getting some handle on it I would like to hear I guess I I see we've got someone from PD I you know I am kind of curious I don't mean to jump the gun so I apologize we don't want to put you on the spot but if you've got any license back on the on this bo body so I don't mean to step out of line but I am curious to hear some more nope just the notes we can see or oh yeah awesome yeah state your name for the record and those watching at home hello Tom Wagner assistant chief walkshow police department so um just from our stance again we want to have we realize that they are a safety issue we have been having some some accidents concerning them and we definitely need to put some regulations in place.

We have been having some accidents concerning them, and we definitely need to put some regulations in place.

However, I think that the ordinance as proposed is pretty extreme in terms of zero e-bikes, regardless of speed on any sidewalk.

Okay.

Just from our notes that we had taking this through all of our patrol supervisor meeting as well as our command team meeting, we've got some suggestions, such as age as being one of those, if it's 12 or older, that they can't be in the sidewalk.

Right of way for pedestrians at all times, um, an audible signal when you're passing, and a lot of municipalities go to a basically a speed restriction of no faster than walking speed when pedestrians are present.

So from our perspective, we want this to be a reasonable standard that we can enforce.

And my concern is if that it's a blanket ban on any electrical vehicle at any speed at any age that we are gonna be inundated with calls with these, even when people are operating them reasonably and prudently.

Okay.

So you're your sugg you're saying that as it's written, we need to make some changes.

Am I am I understanding that?

I'm saying the the perspective from the police department is that yes, I think that they're again on the I think it's a good first step in terms of regulating these, but a blanket ban on any electronic vehicle on any sidewalk at any age at any speed, I think is unreasonable.

At the risk of creating a point counterpoint type situation, I guess I'm gonna throw it back or ask the city attorney's office.

I guess were you aware of the PD's feelings such as that, and why I guess why are we not taking that into account?

We certainly uh we came here tonight aware that there is certainly going to be a lot of different perspectives on the issue, uh, like we've discussed.

You know, this is a first step.

We okay, there's a lots lots of different opinions out there that this poses a unique problem.

So we um you know we're certainly willing to work with everyone on this.

So I have to say that I think I am I personally am in favor of an age limit, um, particularly on some of the you know I'm concerned about some of the the bikes or scooters that go as fast as a car.

Um you know, I do feel that there needs to be there should be some type of licensing or a safety training or something that they have to go through.

Um I my biggest concern as our public commenter had made was you know, some of these kids are getting these bikes and they're not they don't even have a driver's license, so they're not even taught about the rules of the road.

So that's that's a concern of mine.

So I'm not I'm not against what you're saying.

I think that what you know, I do feel that several of the points the police department is making is reasonable.

I wish that we had some of the other alders who had some concerns about this show up today to kind of talk about this.

I would add that the reason that the draft is as simple and basic as it is for two reasons, really.

Number one, it's for enforceability so that we don't have to uh ask, we don't have to determine age, we don't have to determine speed, all of those things.

Uh just a flat out prohibition makes it simple.

Um the second thing is that we anticipated that there was going to be a lot of discussion, a lot of changes.

We did not dream in our wildest dreams that this ordinance would pass through as is and be enacted in that form.

So this is a proposal that starts uh knowing that there are going to be modifications to it.

So that's why it's in the form that it's in right now.

Okay.

So I would like to ask um our police department.

Um you said you're you're not you're against a full-out ban.

So where do you think the line should be?

So the notes from our meeting say the recommendation would be that kids 12 and older must ride in the roadway under 12 could be on the sidewalk.

However, there would be restrictions on that, be unlawful for any person driving a bike, e-bike, electric scooter, um personal mobility device on the sidewalk to to attempt to pass another person or persons going in the same direction.

Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna just just hold on.

I'm I'm making notes.

Okay, no problem.

Um so basically you wouldn't be able to allowed to pass anybody without giving a warning, and until it becomes evident that the person so warned is aware of the approach of the person trying to.

And this is on the sidewalk.

Correct.

Okay.

It would also our recommendation would be that just to state that pedestrians should have at all times the right of way upon the sidewalks, and if necessary, the person driving the e-bike um shall dismount and vacate the sidewalk to give the right of way to the pedestrian at all times.

And uh speed again limited to safe and prudent operation, but I would also suggest limiting that even further to walking speed upon passing any pedestrian, and that would be relatively easy to enforce.

So your first point about older than 12 for certain classes, or not broken down by class because honestly, some bicycles can people can ride up to 20 miles an hour on a bicycle as well.

Got it.

No, go ahead, it's fine.

Yeah, uh, just again for clarification purpose, and just kind of to bring it up for as we're kind of considering and talking about this.

I looked up our existing code for bicycles, and I um since uh Doreen and I both cover downtown, this would still um not how should I say our existing code says no bicycles on the sidewalks in the central city, correct?

Um, would this um supersede that um or you know, just you know, still apply, you know, just want to make sure that we're being very clear about that as well because in downtown we have very little space on our sidewalks and such.

So um I just want to make sure that we're still being very clear about that, right?

Yeah, the uh the way this draft would work is that e-powered vehicles, whatever they are, we should come up with a term that we're using here, uh, would be prohibited everywhere.

Yeah, but pedal and uh human-powered devices would still be allowed everywhere on sidewalks as they are now, except for the central business district.

Okay.

So I think that's something that as I've talked to some neighbors about this, is that they're they have the assumption that bikes were banned everywhere, like downtown because well, we live down near downtown, we're kind of used to that, but they have the assumption that you know anything pedal powered, even was also banned, also on every city sidewalk, but that's not the case.

So I think it's just a quick point of clarification.

Right.

Yeah.

I thought side I thought bikes even not e-bikes, regular pedal bikes were banned on sidewalks for people over a certain age.

Am I misremembering that?

I thought only children under a certain age were allowed to ride bikes on sidewalks in the city.

I I'm not familiar with that regulation.

Okay.

I was gonna say, unless I'm I'm missing it, it's uh 7.05.

Um, and I'm I've been reading through it here earlier and reading through it again.

I didn't see anything about age, so I've got um I might be missing it too, but it's a good question.

You're not missing anything.

Okay.

I'm glad my reading comprehension is okay today.

See, I grew up on the south side of Milwaukee, and I remember when I got my bike, I had to go down to the fire department and get inspected, and I used to have to get a license, right?

I mean, I went down to the fire department and they had to look it all over and it had to be safe, and I had a little license that I had to put on the back.

Do we not do that anymore?

Am I that old?

And we don't know.

I know we still have uh registration tags, right?

Yes, yeah, and I know some communities are considering something like that for the e-bikes.

You know, I'm just wondering if if that's I mean, you know, I look at you know, the constituent complaints that I get, you know, when they see violations or unsafe activity, they don't know how to report it because there's no, you know, there isn't a license for a bike.

But I mean, you know, I just you know, uh just the other day I was driving on Perkins, making a left turn on Perkins and Main Street, heading south, and a guy on an e-bike was definitely a class three, he went right through the stop sign, didn't look, didn't whatever, he just kept going, right?

And it's like, how do you oh I'm gonna call the police and report this person who by the time an officer gets there, isn't he's not gonna be around, and there's no license or anything too to report it, you know what I mean?

But blatantly not paying attention to the road.

And it was an adult, it wasn't even a kid.

He was in the street, not on the sidewalk, but you know, I'm looking at it thinking, you know, if you got a car coming up Eels Avenue, that you know what I mean, coming up that Cleveland area and just totally hitting them because he didn't pay attention.

I don't know.

I'm just rambling.

I'm sorry about that.

I mean, to that point, and as the kind of the memo also lays out, I think it's also important to you know, remind everyone that though that's already illegal, you know.

So we there's already laws on the books.

We're not we're not gonna try and reinvent that in this stage.

So and it's hard.

I mean, our PD does a great job, they can't be everywhere all the time.

Of course, so um, don't take that.

It's certainly not, I mean.

But I get I totally uh echo your frustration because the same thing as you know, riding uh living around the university and such, we see that quite a lot in our neighborhood, you know, folks, you know, just blasting through whether it's on the sidewalks, the streets, stop signs, uh the trails, you know, it can be kind of rough when you're walking, you know, with your family or your dog and such, and all of a sudden you've got somebody blasting right past you.

So I get that.

And plus being that they're electric, they're quiet.

I mean, I know um like electric cars, they've now mandated, I believe, at the federal level that they make some sort of a sound.

You can hear them going through parking lots and stuff to a worn pedestrians, but we don't have that currently for like e-bikes and that, and that's kind of hard.

It's you know, not to say that you know, we don't have an opportunity to do something here, but there is also it seems like statewide state side of things and federally, it seems like we're kind of catching up a little bit.

You know, maybe there's an opportunity there for our higher officials to maybe do make some you know actions there, but I don't know that we can force people to make you know noisemakers on their machines to make sure that but I do I'm actually kind of curious about that idea of because that's always been the as a bike rider, the common courtesy of when, for example, we're on a trail, you're coming up behind someone, whether it's someone who's a pedestrian, another bicycle rider, you either you sound a bell, you sound a horn, you say coming on your left.

You know, that's always just common courtesy.

Um I know, like for example, I I've been teaching that to my son, you know, strongly as he's learning to ride his bike, and we go out on the trail, you know, I remind him, okay, it's your turn, you gotta say on your left, and we tell that to the person we're coming up behind.

Um, so some of this comes back to also I think parents to you know, reminding our parents, you know, please talk to your kids, you know, among the many things parents need to talk to their kids about these days.

Um, but there's a little bit of that too, I think, you know, being good stewards and such.

Yeah, I'm just thinking, I mean, it's for me, I I definitely have concerns about these devices.

I I mean, you know, it's plain to see.

I mean, I I spend a lot of time in commercial areas.

Um, I think of like the the parking lots at the shops at Fox River where I find myself a lot, and I see a lot of teenagers for lack of a better term, zipping around in the parking lots on these scooters, not really paying attention to traffic around them, and you know, it is it is only a matter of time before some really gruesome accident happens, and this becomes a real public issue, and I'm sure maybe it's already happened, and you know, I'm sure it's happened somewhere, maybe just not in Waukesha, but uh um you know, so I have concerns.

Um the the topic is not lost on me.

I'm not a biker, I'm not gonna find myself on a bicycle e or otherwise, um, probably at my age.

Um, but uh I'm inclined what I'll say is I'm inclined to support the um draft from the city attorney's office because with all due respect to the PD, what I heard you say did not sound like an easier, more enforceable ordinance.

What I heard was a lot of other stipulations and a lot of other exceptions that in my mind makes enforcement that much more difficult.

So I'm I'm kind of at a crossroads there as to you know how best to balance that because you know a full prohibition of these devices on sidewalks is to me an easier line to draw than having to determine, okay.

Are they you know, do we think this person is over 12 or under 12?

Do we think they're going too fast or you know, I guess to me that in that invokes some more difficulty in trying to determine if they're really breaking the ordinance or not, but maybe the PD is fully equipped to make those um distinctions.

I don't know, you know, if it's a public that's calling you to complain about it.

I don't know that the public is in the best spot to make that determination, and you're still gonna get flooded with calls because people are gonna see them and say, well, I don't know if he's 12 or 13, you know, and he should be on the sidewalk or not.

So I guess that's my piece, and I'm certainly open to comments from either side from the city attorney's office or the PD in response to that.

But that's kind of what I'm struggling with.

Our comment is that this draft is intended as a starting point, and we're sure that there will be plenty of discussions and that all of the issues that are brought up will be addressed.

So I don't think we're really at a point right now where you know we're we're answering all of the issues, but we hope that there will be a robust discussion of all of these points.

So does it make sense then to maybe move something so that we can get it to council for all of us to talk about?

And I I say that with a lot of respect to everything that you said.

Um I agree with a lot of what your the PD is suggesting.

I do feel that there needs to be some limits.

Um I also echo some of the parents who have younger children that have bicycles, that you know, if they have a bicycle, does it have to be in the street if they're not old enough to have a bike?

You know, I I was riding my bike early, you know.

So, you know, I don't I you know so maybe we pass it to go to council.

I'm just throwing this out there, knowing that the council will tear it apart and send it back, send it back, you know, send it back.

I don't know if that if that makes sense.

And I, you know, but I want to have a discussion to do the right thing.

It's I think all of us agree that something needs to be done.

Something needs to be done to create a safer environment for this type of um vehicle, and of course the pedestrians that are walking and whatnot, so we absolutely have to do something, but I'm just wondering if we move this forward to council and have the entire council um talk about it, only because I I really expected there to be more members here today, um, just because of how much talk and so maybe that's the move we do is approve it to move forward to council with the understanding that they will talk, you know, that we'll have more disrobust discussion about it.

You know, I'm and I'm saying that with thank you for the first step, and I absolutely appreciate your comments, and then you come back to counsel so that you can make your recommendations there too.

I just I don't know, you guys can disagree with me.

Um do we hold it for our next session and again solicit that engagement from our okay we could do that too.

Um, just a thought because no, I'm I'm open, I'm absolutely open.

I just really think there needs to be more dialogue.

I don't think that it's up to just the three of us.

I think if if we want to make a really good ordinance that's going to address this problem, I think that we do need other, you know, other um other alder alders to come in and speak their piece at whether it's this committee or you know, at the council, yep, overall.

So I'm open to either way.

So we can vote to hold it, and then we can we can put out a you know, or you can.

Oh, go ahead.

I'm sorry.

Go ahead, Brian.

My suggestion would be to recommend it for discussion at council.

Okay, okay, rather than keep it here.

Okay, great.

It does not have to follow the the standard three readings, or it can be as much discussion as you want there to be, but your point is a good one.

You want to have the entire council privy to all of the discussions.

Right, I agree.

I'm inclined to support that as well.

So then I'm in, you know, it it it may be a two-hour discussion at council, and it may end up coming.

I mean, we always have the ability at council to send it back to committee based on the feedback that we get from the 15 of us.

I just really would like their input.

So I guess with that, I will make a motion to approve the recommendation as is to move it to council.

And um to move, yeah, to move it to the to council to discuss.

To approve or to recommend approval as is as presented.

I'll second that.

Okay.

Clarifying question.

Okay.

Go ahead.

And again, kind of doing go back to one of your points.

And again, I I it's a voice it in question is you know, we're not going to ban necessarily then as part of this pedal bikes, though, in the other areas of city like, for example, to your kind of example when my son was learning is learning how to you know ride his bike.

We're not banning them, you know, kids from you know learning as we're walking on the sidewalk and stuff.

We're not putting them out in the streets as they pedal and learn.

But this is again focused on e-bikes and such.

And I'm seeing nods, and yeah, I just want to make sure that folks listening at home is understanding we're not gonna force you know new new bike riders out there, you know, with you know into traffic or into bike lanes where they're not prepared for that yet.

You know, we want to take it as you know, you know, this is just one carving, I guess.

So does that make sense?

Okay, I'm I'm seeing nods.

Okay.

Any other questions, comments?

Tom, you you were gonna respond to my I just I guess that question is so if but if this gets voted on tonight, then it basically goes to consent.

If you're all in three in favor of the proposed ordinance, I'm just trying to clarify that.

No, ordinances never go on the consent agenda.

Yeah, and I I just want to be clear what my recommendation was was to just move the whole issue to the council for discussion.

And maybe is that the motion that we made or correct?

Well, we're approving it as presented to move it to council, and it will not go to consent because we have to all talk and it you know, when it comes to an ordinance, it has to be discussed, and then we have to read it three times before we can even approve it.

So then you're steps, yeah.

Okay, any other questions, comments?

No.

No, and I think I want to say one more thing before we vote is just for the people at home and for the paper, because you know that they're gonna write about this.

Is that again, this is strictly we are proposing it as is, just to clarify, so that it can go to council for discussion so that other alders can make recommendations.

So if anybody's listening at home, you know, this is an opportunity for you to contact your alder and let your voice be heard as far as what you would like to um see or what your concerns are because this will be a bigger um discussion and even come down and make public comment at the council meetings when this is on the agenda.

Okay, and then my apologies.

I was doing a lot of typing.

Could you just repeat the mover in the seconder, please?

I believe Doreen made the motion and I seconded it.

So motion by Widgerson, seconded by Manion.

Okay, and that motion did pass three to zero.

Okay.

So will this already matter be on Tuesday's council agenda for discussion, Brian?

Well, move that fast.

So we'll have first discussion already on Tuesday.

I will send the item to be put onto the council agenda.

Okay.

Thank you.

All right.

Um, that was our one discussion item for this evening.

Uh that moves us on to communications.

Anything from the clerk's office?

Nothing from the clerk's office.

Anything else from the city attorney's office?

Brian's shaking his head no.

Um, all right.

That takes us to item eight adjournment.

Any objection to adjourning the meeting?

No objection.

No hearing and seeing no objection, we are adjourned.

Thank you.

Thank you.