Good afternoon and welcome to the public safety committee meeting for October.

Yes, my mic is on.

Thank you.

We have we are now sitting in the most magnificent committee room there has ever been in a city hall.

So welcome.

And I hope those chairs are more comfortable than the old ones.

And we have this new configuration here with the tables, though I preferred the round table.

Um we have new microphones and new technology.

So since this is our very first adventure into this, please give us some grace in case it doesn't work so well.

Right now we'll ask uh city clerk if you'd be so kind to check and see if we're all here.

Chairperson, Councilmember Scipio?

Here, Councilmember Hall here.

Councilmember Joyner present and council member Andrew Bowen.

Here thank you.

Uh just so everybody knows these fancy microphones is a little button you push uh to speak.

Um the system only allows three microphones on at one time, and if you say something that I don't like, I have a mute button because that's what the chair has authority with these new microphones.

So uh Mr.

Pate, we're gonna target you today.

You're all thank you.

Our first um item on our very long agenda uh is uh approval of the public safety committee minutes.

Move for approval second.

We've heard the motion, it's been approved, and we're having voice vote today for everything.

So all in favor, aye.

Hi.

So that passes.

So now we'll go to our general agenda.

Um Madam Clerk, would you please tee that up?

Item G1 resolution authorizing contract renewal for Lexus Nexus Co-Plodic Solutions Inc.

and addition of by crash reporting solutions, and who will be presenting this for us?

Captain?

Yes, good afternoon, Chair City of members of the public safety committee.

Captain Amy Gaulden presenting the contract removal for Lexus Nexus Cop Logic Solutions in 2021.

So we'd like to continue that contract.

The contract itself is 49,560.

Okay, thank you.

The contract itself is 49,560.

In addition to the contract renewal, we are also requesting to implement the by crash system, which allows us to provide copies of our crash reports through Lexus Nexus to commercial vendors.

Commercial vendors are already obtaining those reports through Lexus Nexus, so what they would do is implement a fee of $20 for each report that a commercial vendor requests.

And what that does, it allows us to offset the cost of the software costs and a portion of the administrative cost associated with the online reporting system, which is known as doors or desk officer reporting system.

So just to also put it in perspective.

The type of reports that go to the system are non-emergency calls for service, which typically are not a crime in progress, do not have weapons involved, anything that such as like an auto-breaking, littering, or shoplifting is a big component of that as well.

So we had 5301 reports actually in 2024.

I floated to the system.

The by crash, like I mentioned, will then offset.

We will provide those reports to the commercial vendors for that fee.

There'll also be a five-dollar administrative fee for involved parties to obtain that crash report online through Lexus Nexus, or they can still come to the police department and obtain a copy of that crash report for free.

Are there any questions?

I do have a question.

Yes, ma'am.

When you say the commercial vendors, you can hear me?

It's on.

Thank you.

You just couldn't hear me.

I wasn't.

I need to.

Okay.

Thank you.

It's going on and off.

Just a technicality.

We'll have that fixed very soon.

Um would be the commercial vendors who would need these reports.

In most cases, that is insurance companies.

Oh, yes.

So they can get them through the North Carolina Department of Motor Vehicles.

However, sometimes that's problematic for them.

So the most expeditious way for them to obtain those reports is through Lexus Nexus.

And so that's why we're looking at implementing the service.

You know the police department has all kinds of wonderful little gadgets and things to help you do your job very efficiently.

Um if you didn't have this service, what would you have to do?

So right now they we process, I want to say I know it's over 4,000 of those mail-in requests that commercial vendors or commercial entities, such as the entrance companies send into the police department.

So that would relieve the workload on our administrative staff and providing those copies and also allows them to write them much faster because online they could obtain them within 24 to 48 hours, whereas processing that internally at the department would be five to seven days most likely.

Thank you.

Any questions at all?

Council members, do I have a motion?

Move to approve.

Is there a second?

Second.

Thank you.

We've had a motion and it's been uh seconded.

All in favor?

Aye.

Aye.

Aye.

So that's unanimous.

Thank you.

Now we'll go to G2, please.

Item G2, ordinance amending chapter 38 of the city code relating to miscellaneous offenses and provisions to revise city park rules.

Thank you.

Mr.

Rao.

Good afternoon, Chair Will Municipio, Mayor Joins, members of council.

So in recent weeks, uh the city the city has experienced an increasing level of disruptive behavior at Merchal Park.

Um in response to that, the city took immediate actions to respond to that disruptive behavior.

Uh from May to about the end of September, we had received 376 calls for service to the police department.

And so in response to that, uh the city removed all the furniture in Marshall Park, uh, removed the solar table, which is now in storage, and staff's currently uh discussing options for where that solar temple may eventually be located.

We also disconnected the free Wi-Fi service that was available in the park, and then the police department has uh employed tactics to continue to monitor and respond to any other disruptive behavior.

And if you have driven by Marshall Park in recent days since the 26th of September, I think we have seen uh a significant decrease in uh the disruptive behavior that we've we have been experiencing.

And I would just point out that that the removal of amenities like the park furniture, the solar table, uh, even free Wi-Fi is something that we've done in the past to respond to uh safety issues in other city parks.

But beyond just our downtown parks, you know, we are experiencing challenges at other parks throughout the city, issues with encampments, drug use, even damage to city property.

So the items that will be considered before you today uh looks to amend Chapter 38 of the city code to enable the police department to enforce a series of new rules for all 83 of the city's parks.

Jamie, do you have the we've we've developed a rendering of this at this point?

This is just a draft of what the signage could look like at our uh that would that would note these new rules.

We don't have the Elmo anymore, so I can't put on the overhead.

But but as Jamie's cueing that up, so the the rules include uh prohibiting the use of hammocks or camping gear, erecting structures of any kind, storing or leaving personal belongings, uh having large personal belongings uh in the parks and suitcases, storage containers, shopping carts, and other similar items.

Uh the removal of items from our trash receptacles, defacement or damage to park property.

Uh the rules uh state that you know no person shall possess, distribute, sell, solicit, or consume marijuana or any other controlled substance in the parks.

And finally, that uh the rules would not allow defecation or urination uh except in park restrooms.

In addition to these rules, we would also establish new operating hours where our parks would remain open from sunrise to sunset.

So this this rendering here that you see before you this is uh uh the draft rules and trying to make it as visual as we can in addition to you know some of the narrative, there would be a QR code in the lower right-hand corner that would take uh an individual to more of the rules with our parks, but this would be how we would present uh potentially these these new rules for our all of our city parks.

But the operating hours would be changed from sunrise to sunset in addition.

And as you would see in the code, that still gives us the flexibility to be able to change the hours of operation based on when certain parts of a park may still be in operation, like tennis courts, uh where we may you know continue to operate the park beyond you know sunset, or if there are special events that are taking place, so we still give ourselves some some operational flexibility there.

Um so as I noted that the uh the item before you are amendments to chapter 38 to uh change the code to enable police department to enforce these rules.

The uh recreation and parts commission met last Tuesday to consider uh this issue, and they did unanimously recommend approval of these ordinance changes.

Um looking at the cost, the potential cost to replace the signage at all 83 parks.

We're looking at possibly about 250 signs uh that would have to be replaced at an estimated cost of up to 75,000 dollars.

We would ensure whether it's a separate sign or whether it's through some of the means that these rules are also available in Spanish.

Uh and just as a closing comment, you know, the the purpose of uh this action is to really give us a reset, you know, with our parks uh to to position us for when the the weather will turn warm again come the spring, and that we have rules in place to help mitigate any uh future disruptive behavior, but it does also enable us to address you know the issues that we've been experiencing here in the in the near term.

Be happy to answer any questions.

This is such a sensitive issue uh because it does impact access to the parks for all people.

Um but we do have some issues that we do need to address.

Uh committee members questions or comments.

Scott?

Uh I have a long list, so if you'll bear with me.

That's fine.

Thank you.

Um so I have some issues.

There's no surprise.

Um but I have issues one with the the realigning of the park hours, just because on December 21st, which is the shortest day of the year, that means the parks will be closing around five 5:30 in the in the evening.

Um are we prepared to have the parks close at that time?

The second thing I have issues with uh in the restrictive items, uh it says no wagons.

Um as a parent, uh does this mean that I cannot bring a wagon into the park to then uh carry you know picnic stuff in with, or is it only uh referring to people who are unhoused?

Um are strollers allowed because again, as a parent, I have used strollers to go for a walk in the park.

Uh but uh I have seen our unhoused and our people in poverty using strollers uh to carry their belongings and so we'll be putting restrictions on that.

Uh if this is a class three misdemeanor, it comes with a $500 fine.

Are we expecting uh the people who uh can't afford a place to put their stuff to pay for these these fines, less uh putting more burden on to onto their uh financial situations?

Uh I have only had to dig through trash a handful of times in my life, uh, one of them being earlier this summer, where I uh lost something and I dug through all my trash.

belongings and so we'll be putting restrictions on that uh if this is a class three misdemeanor it comes with a five hundred dollar fine are we expecting uh the people who uh can't afford a place to put their stuff to pay for these these fines less uh putting more burden on to onto their uh financial situations uh i have only had to dig through trash a handful of times in my life uh one of them being earlier this summer where I uh lost something and I dug through all my trash and I am fortunate enough to where I don't have to dig through trash on a daily basis um but if that that is how people uh obtain uh food and yes I understand that some people will be digging for other things in the trash um do we want to place that burden on them uh 75,000 dollars for new signs I think can go to better uh things uh to prohibit this and to make this better um I am looking forward to what is talked about in the next meeting this afternoon about things that we're doing in the positive way which I think 75,000 dollars can help with and then finally um I agree that uh using the restroom in a public space using drugs in a public space uh should be against the law they are currently against the law uh so there's therefore no extra reason to put those on here um this is in my opinion this is uh targeting a certain population of our of our population and I will be voting no against this there's no reason to answer this is all rhetorical council member hall thank you um thank you council member Scipio I do have a couple of questions uh ACM row and um some of them or one of them may be appropriate for Mr.

Royston who's in the audience but the first one just for clarity the timeline for implementation would be immediate pending a full council vote correct so if if the council does approve the rule changes while the the code says immediate uh you know into effect I mean it will take us some time to actually you know deploy new signage but but those rules would go into effect immediately okay and the other thing that I had a question was was it was similar to what council member Andrew Bowen was saying about being a parent and you know having the child that plays sports and my child does not currently play a sport that takes place at a city park but it does take place um with counting parks and so we can put up a tent we can have the wagon and I can have the stroller for my now 11 month old but in the event that there was uh a soccer game or tournament that was taking place at a city owned park then we would not be able to have those amenities based off of the change in ordinance this code so I I think that's certainly that's not the intent of of what we're trying to do here and uh and I think that we would we can go back and and look at how we need to refine the language or the rules to make sure it's clear that for you know city events or those who are visiting the parks that they're not going to be cited you know for having a stroller with a child or that that type of um activity.

Thank you and I do have one other question council member Scipio and that is because and as you're going back ACM Rao and thinking about that particularly with language I think that those are the types of events that line up with the programming at the parks because it is specific programming that's taking place in which the citizen would be bringing said amenities because they are participating in the program and so I know that there are a few different um a few different things that we that were placed in here specifically related to programming at parks so maybe as you all are going back that could be something you can consider.

Yes ma'am council member joiner thank you chairman um as uh councilmember hall said there the language um I think we need to adjust and work on and be more um possibly a little more gentle with the language of it um one thing um you're uh not allowed to erect structures of any kind well sometimes you have I don't know events in the park where you would put up a stage or you put up uh a tent you'd put up platform so um to go to other things as my other council um colleagues have said um some of that wording is a little too abrupt and I think we uh I understanding the intent um to quell bad behavior or poor behavior I I think we would in this iteration I think we would um be penalizing a whole lot of good folk for the bad behavior of a very few so just to take a little bit more time with that Mr.

I I think we would in this iteration, I think we would um be penalizing a whole lot of good folk for the bad behavior of a very few.

So just to take a little bit more time with that.

Mr.

Oyster.

Uh Chair CPU, members of the committee, members of City Council.

Um we don't allow that right now anyway.

And the reason being is that we have a lot of subsurface utilities that are underground, and we've run into issues where people have set up, have erected tents and other things and place those stakes in the ground and damage things that are underground.

So even at, for instance, Rocket Out the Quarry, there were some very, very strict guidelines of what people could and could not do.

And erecting tents was not one of them.

So if there were tents that needed to be set up, then we provided those as a as a department.

But these are some things that were just we um with the erecting structures on park property, we don't allow that right now anyway.

We haven't allowed that.

So it's not a new rule.

It's giving the police department a tool that they can use to help us enforce that so that we can protect our amenities.

And understanding that there are um tools needed to to that can be um used to enforce poor behavior or bad behavior.

Uh another one which was in here was uh suitcases, luggage of any type is not allowed.

And uh I would take pause in that there are people who actually travel the Greyhound bus for true um travel reasons, and they would stop.

And what a beautiful plaza, Marshall Park is, and I've got a three-hour wait for my next bus to come through.

And on a day like today, um I can't go a half a block and sit because the tables are gonna come back, and I can't go a half a block and sit for an hour or so and get the hot dog from the hot dog stand that's usually right there.

Um I think that's again uh it is no easy answer to a hard question or hard issue, but at some point we have to balance the two, and I think that um I think I know that we can do better.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Thank you, madam chairman.

Um I appreciate all comments that everyone has given made some really good points there.

I think uh being uh been making good notes there, it's probably a little bit of tweaking and adjusting and clarifications uh will be needed.

Uh but uh uh the $500 fine is already on the books, as I believe uh Ben correctly, so we just kind of putting it up there for everybody to see.

But commercial park, for instance, uh almost 80 police calls a month for four months in a row there.

We in my opinion, we have to give our police tools that they can uh enforce and keep keep the parts under control, so to speak.

Right now they're having to do do a lot of things kind of on by see the pants, so this will codify a lot of those things.

I understand the concerns, but I believe this is a good first step, and with some uh uh clarifications and tweaking of language, I believe it'll be uh being something that would be beneficial to all of us here in the city.

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

Mr.

Rao, I have just a few questions that were submitted by uh two of our residents who are concerned um about this ordinance.

Um but before I ask those, my personal comment is this ordinance is to abate bad behavior.

Um oftentimes that bad behavior is a reaction by people who are struggling in some kind of way, whether it's a mental health issue, whether it's just total frustration at a point in their lives.

Um and this ordinance then says to them what Winston Sealem is about, what kind of city is it?

Is it for everyone or just for some people?

Um my reaction to the ordinance initially was I don't want anything that tends to discriminate against any resident.

Public safety is for all residents in this city, whether they have a nickel in their pocket or five dollars.

It's for every resident, whether they rent, own or have no home.

We have to protect those who are here regardless of their situation.

Bad behavior though cannot be tolerated.

And that's the delicate part because we don't want to tell adult people how they should behave because we assume that they have been adequately trained, and that is not always the case.

From what I understand is many of them have actual addresses here in the city.

So I don't like people who want to look like what they're doing is because of some other condition, and they want a sympathy or pass on their bad behavior when they're not necessarily in that condition.

But I think we have to be very, very knowledgeable about what we're dealing with and what it says about our community as a city.

What is it that we're saying about people who find themselves in situations that they can't at this point get out of?

So I I know our parks are beautiful.

We want to make sure that they stay beautiful.

People who go to the park want to be safe and they should feel safe.

So I do recognize that, and I'm actually in favor of having regulations because that's what law enforcement needs to come in.

Every resident has rights in this city, the right to access public spaces in this city.

But that right doesn't necessarily mean you have the right to defecate in the park and make it unpleasant for me to come behind you.

And I have to deal with that behavior.

And that's about people who are finding themselves without shelter.

And that is really critical, and I know that's gonna happen in the next committee meeting because I've been told they're going to be talking about that.

Um before I I want to make sure that I ask these questions of uh that were submitted by Paula Trothus and Bob Manazet close enough, man.

Um they're always at our meetings, and I appreciate residents who come to give us perspectives, because staff is in the in always, we have a wonderful staff in this city, and they're always working to get the best solution for the community, but oftentimes their perspective is based on where they're working, what the what's being said in the workplace?

It's not necessarily what the people are saying in that.

Uh we have a wonderful police department that will enforce whatever regulations we have on the books.

Um we have to have them there for them to take appropriate action without violating people's rights, their individual rights.

Um I want to ask these questions, and some of them will be forwarded to the next committee because that's who needs to answer them.

Um that's the first question is does Winston Selim have local funding as opposed to HUD money for homeless services that will go to the next committee meeting.

They can address that.

Will the city work with nonprofits in continuum of a care before this is implemented?

This is not necessarily a continuum of care issue.

But I think we can work with nonprofits to help spread the word and help communicate what the new regulation says, because a lot of people just don't know what we require of them.

But there are a lot of nonprofits working with those who are being impacted.

The question is, is this a funded mandate?

This is just an ordinance that would be controlled and implemented with the current workforce.

Should not be any additional expenses to implement this.

Am I right on that?

It's just normal.

Except for the money.

Except for the signage.

Okay.

The question is, is there a safe parking area for folks living in their cars?

No.

We don't have a designated place for that in this city.

Possibly needs to be discussed.

Does the city have a map of public restrooms throughout the city?

We don't publish a map, do we, Mr.

Royston?

Public restrooms.

We have uh online map that shows all of our park locations.

It lists all of our park communities, including restrooms, those with power, and those without.

But our restrooms are are they at all parks?

We don't have restrooms at all of our park locations.

I think we have 53, 54 restrooms, but half of those have power, and the other half do not.

And they're not open 24 hours.

We have some restrooms that we heated the pipe chases so that they they can remain open all year.

However, we over the past recent months we've been monitoring which locations are being vandalized.

Um I have one restroom location we're gonna have to replace that happened over the weekend, we have to replace all of the fixtures.

Um it can take anywhere from four to six months to get all of those in, depending on how how long it takes to get the back order, but that's a picnic shelter that's going to be offline, unavailable to the public that where it once was because we're having to address vandalism.

Yeah, and I know that's been a continuing problem in our parks, the vandalism that's occurred.

Um thank you, Mr.

Royce.

Um what is the you've got the violation is a fine up to $500.

What happens to a person who can't pay the fine?

Are they jailed?

I will look to uh our city attorney to answer that question.

Good afternoon, Chair CPO and council members.

Um that is generally what happens if they cannot pay the fine.

They are generally they will go to court, but many times that's part of the cycle because our judicial system also does not prefer to um incarcerate um folks that cannot afford to pay those fines, and so oftentimes that is also a battle that our police have to face that some folks that are violating the ordinances um will be arrested, sent downtown, um judicial does its job and everything, but those folks are right back out on the streets before we can have any resolution to that.

So the process does follow the process.

Um and again, he's right, the um ordinance and those um criminal penalties were a part of our ordinance already, and it is not just in conjunction with this provision, but other similar provisions like our panhandling as well.

Yeah.

So that it that is uh an issue.

Um and where do people go when they get do they get banned from the parks or um what happens at that point in time?

That last question was just a general question.

Where do people, not just for the parks ordinance, but the next one?

Yeah, where do they go?

Yeah, that's still depending on the severity of what um the police department is responding to, there are some instances where people are banned.

Um there are some instances where we'll have discussions with that individual and see if they can adhere to our rules.

And that's not just in our uh parks, but also in our recreation centers.

Um not every offense is a banable offense.

Thank you.

Uh are there any other questions?

Um, manager paid.

Thank you, Chairman.

Uh, just to just to make sure we have some clarity on a couple of issues that have that have been brought up.

Um is on park restrooms US specifically, are they open 24 hours?

No, they're not.

Park restrooms are open when the parks are open, and they and you're not they're not open when the parks are not open.

So as uh William said, there are information on our website that talks about where the parks are, what amenities are in those parks, so you can go there to find out if there's restrooms or not, and if they're open during the events that are there.

Um I I want to be clear for from us from the staff perspective is that that you were conflating two issues here.

The park rules have nothing to do with the homeless or unhoused issue.

That is a tremendous and huge issue that we're gonna have to deal with as a community and as a state and as a country of how to deal with that.

These rules are not directed at any group of folks.

The the rules are in place for the most part, these are rules that we've had in place, but that we're clarifying them in the code so that we can take actions.

The police department is not looking to arrest individuals.

We're looking to encourage good behavior.

I I told the had two new police officers in orientation this morning.

We told them our our job is not to arrest people, our job is to help people do the right things.

That's what these are intended to do is to basically say here are behaviors that or practices that create problems that we can't have in the parks.

And when people know that, the vast majority of folks are gonna live by those rules that are in place for the general enjoyment of the parks for all people in the communities.

So the the other issue on fines is again the police department is not looking to give people fines.

We're looking to, as a community and as a staff, we're looking to make sure that the people are following behaviors in the parks that encourage everybody to use the parks in a manner that's beneficial to everybody there.

There are the rules in here do allow for exceptions based on events that are going on.

So a lot of the things that are being taught about, it there's not a hard and fast rule that you cannot carry a stroller into a park.

If a family is in a park with a stroller, there is no police officer in our force or city park official that's going to tell them that they should not be in there with a stroller in the park.

If we need to clarify that in the language, I know Ben's got that written down, and we'll get that taken care of.

But that there's no intention of any of those things in these rules.

These rules are to deal with the behaviors that have been causing problems and the individuals that have been causing those, exhibiting those behaviors.

And as you mentioned, there is no category of people of person that is doing that.

Uh, if there's uh a group that's probably more targeted than others, is probably youth that tend to exhibit behaviors because they're showing off for their friends that need to be curtailed.

But I think the fair is a good example.

Um I don't know if if we we'll talk about that at some point, but the the activities we basically put in code of conduct at the fair, which is just like the behaviors we're talking about here, and the number of incidents that we had at the fair was very small this year compared to other years because people want to they once they know the rules, they'll follow the rules, or there's clear consequences that the police department can carry out.

So it's not we're not targeting anyone, and you and you're right, madam chair, there will be a lot of discussion about the unhoused issues and things we're doing with that at our next committee meeting today.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Councilmember Hall.

Thank you, Councilmember Scipio.

ACM Rao, you have been standing for quite some time, so I will keep this short.

Um I would like to one pub the We Play app.

I have it on my phone.

Several people do, but if you don't, this is for folks watching online or folks who may be here to make sure that you download the WePlay app because it does have that listing of all city parks, and it also with that you can hover over, get drone views of what the park looks like.

You can reserve online, you can see if it has power or not, or restrooms, etc.

So that is on the WePlay app in that same vein.

In that same vein, I'm hoping that the new signage will also be in digital format to place on the WePlay app.

So that as folks are being driven there, they also will see the same thing on the app as they're even deciding which park to go to.

And the other point that I that I wanted to make sure that I say, and not to hone on Marshall Park, but only because it is a part of the car.

This is to Manager Pate, if I can in um passing over to him.

Manager Pay, would you be so kind to talk about just very quickly a synopsis of what you mentioned during your manager's report at the last council meeting, that even the disturbances that were reported and responded to by our officers were not necessarily in abundance by people who did not have an address.

These are people who actually did because there has been a very major misconception with that.

And if you would be so kind to just list that again here at the committee meeting for people who may not have heard you say it at the council meeting.

Uh mentioned that as well.

But the issues that were there, there's a lot of responses going on at uh Marshall Park, but we have responses that we have to do it at all of our parts.

In the details that they pulled up on the incidents at Marshall Park, particularly the ones that were most egregious.

Typically, those are ones that involved uh significant fighting, uh, assaulting of officers, and those activities where arrests needed to be made.

Those folks that were arrested had home addresses.

So it wasn't that they were in the park because they did not have anywhere else that they could be.

They were in the park because they wanted to be, but but not because they had to be there.

Thank you.

I appreciate that.

And the very last thing that I will say, um, ACM Raoult, is that I appreciate you making sure that you said on record that these proposed changes will be in effect for all city parks, and that this is not just targeted towards one particular park in downtown Winston-Salem, but that this would be if implemented and made clear and adaptable to all city parks uh in in the city.

Thank you.

And I yield back, madam chair.

Thank you.

Um I do have one final question, Mr.

Raoult or Mr.

Royston.

The $75,000 for new sites.

Is it what budget is it coming out of?

Well, it would be coming out of the recreation and parks department's operating budget.

And and they have enough money in there to cover this without putting them in jeopardy for anything else.

Well, we would certainly examine you know the budget to make sure that we would find areas that we could cover those costs within the established budgets.

This this is this would be a priority, and so we would treat that expenditure accordingly.

Okay.

Are there any other questions or comments on this issue?

Uh do we have a motion at all?

Move to uh move to I I was gonna suggest uh councilwoman that that y'all may want to hold this to next month for the committee, and then we can bring back some any proposed changes that that we might that would make it the language better.

That'll be fine.

Okay, council member uh Scipio.

I would like to uh move that we table this item until our next committee meeting in November uh so that staff can have the opportunity to make some language revisions.

Second all in favor?

Aye, aye.

Aye.

Thank you, Mr.

Rao.

And the next item.

Item G3, overview of city ordinances enforced by police in downtown Winston-Salem.

This is an information item.

Um Captain Good afternoon, Chair of Scipio, City Council, City Staff.

Uh my name is Jason Gates.

I'm a captain with the police department.

I'm currently over District 4, which encompasses our downtown area.

Um here today to talk to you about some of the common ordinances that are already on the books that we enforce regularly.

Uh so the first one is uh city ordinance 38-19 sleeping on public property or property of another.

Um it shall be unlawful for any person to sleep in the streets, sidewalks, alleys, or public grounds, or private premises without the consent of the person in control.

And then that's a class three misdemeanor.

Most of our, I believe all of our city ordinances, the the uh it's a class three misdemeanor, uh, all of them are with a fine, not more than five hundred dollars.

And the incarceration maximum per North Carolina statute is 20 days.

So in the detention center.

That's the maximum, yes, ma'am.

Yes, ma'am.

The next one is C Ordinance 74-17, obstructing streets and sidewalks being prohibited.

That should be on unlawful for any person to block or obstruct a public street, sidewalk, bridge, or walkway in such a manner to prevent or hinder the passage of pedestrian or vehicular there on, prevent or hinder free ingress or egress to and from a public building or meeting place or any other business, prevent a pedestrian from traveling along the sidewalk without leaving the sidewalk and walking on adjacent property.

And again, that one's a code three.

Is that a class three?

I'm sorry.

Yes, ma'am.

Yes, ma'am, they all are.

That's the maximum.

But I I will say that our you know our district court judges have discretion, and it's very rare, at least in my career, that somebody's gonna get you know 20 days in jail and a $500 fine for violating any of these city ordinances.

Downtown is human urination or defecation on public or private property.

That's city ordinance 38-30.

Uh begging or soliciting alms, that's 3831.

And consumption or possession of malt beverage or unfortified wine on property owned, occupied or controlled by the city, and that one's under code 38-9.

Um so these are all the the numbers for those specific city ordinances that have been charged by our officers uh since September 1st of 2024 through October 8th.

You see for yourself there, we're pretty active out here.

We've got a lot of officers that come in and work our downtown augmentation, and um we do our very best to enforce these rules in a reasonable way.

You know, we I think city manager paid hit it just right.

You know, we we're after compliance.

We're not out here looking to take people to jail and have them pay fines and things.

We just we're after compliance, but sometimes folks just don't do that, so therefore they get charged.

That's that's all I have.

Do you have any questions for me, anyone?

Uh yes, ma'am.

I have a question uh of attorney French.

Can you tell us how long these ordinances have been on our books?

Uh you may not know today, but if you could look that up, because sometimes people think this is really recent, but I suspect these have been around for a long time.

And uh the enforcement of it may not have been as visible as people think.

Uh, and it may be time for us to promote this to the public again to let them know what our values are uh and what we expect of people.

Uh but I do like that uh we have some chronic people in our community, unfortunately, who are suffering from mental illness, and sometimes the only thing that we can do in our community is to have them arrested where they can be housed, and I don't know how much treatment they get, but uh we just have some folks who just can't.

They're just out there, and the only place they can be is on the bench on the sidewalk.

Um so as a community, this is the kind of thing we've got to look a little more into.

How do we handle this?

Uh, because I think it was about 15 years ago that mental health services got eliminated by the state, and we started seeing a lot more people on the street uh instead of getting help.

Uh just as a preliminary answer, because I do need some time to go back and do a little digging, but some of these ordinances are several years old.

Um, just looking um at one in particular was adopted by council in 2022.

Um, and so I do think that um you might want me to go back and look at each one of those individually, and I'm happy to do that.

Thank you.

Uh and I think I did I ask uh ACM voter for how it looks across the city.

I know this is the downtown.

Yes, ma'am.

And how does this stack up in other parts of the city?

As far as uh violations.

Um I would say Marshall Park is by far the most robust one in the city, but there are a lot of other charges taken out throughout the 80 plus parks in the city.

Yeah.

And Chair Scipio, we are I'm looking back at Chief Katie Allen.

If the information that we passed along to you, if that's what you're looking for, we can we can speak to that, or if you were looking for additional detail.

Um just speak to it a little bit.

So one second, we can just send it out if you want to send it out to the other council members.

Yes, ma'am, that would be good.

Chair Sipio, members of of the committee.

Um we had pulled data from calls for service at various city parks, not we just did specific these numbers are specific to the beat 411.

Um so if you want citywide data on the ordinances, we'll have to pull that separately because we had just run initially parks.

Just to park of parks, yeah.

Okay.

Um so parks typically our calls for service, our our violation for city ordinances and just parks around the city uh is about 155 total city ordinance violations.

Uh majority of our calls with um the parks are related to security checks.

That can be anything from officers pulling in um and getting out on their own.

That can be um somebody calls in just a random thing, a manhole covers off, something's out of the ordinary.

But most of our calls at the parks are security checks.

Uh we do have right behind the city ordinance violations are drug calls with 154 drug calls um throughout our parks.

Uh next would be disturbances at 106 calls, and then trespassing is behind that with 100 calls.

Thank you.

Uh council member.

Um, thank you.

Councilwoman CPO.

I do have Captain Gates uh questions, and I to be honest, I hate to ask this, but I really do not know.

And so I will ask this for the public urination and defecation in in public for officers to respond.

I am asking if they would need to actually see the person in the act of the public urination or public defecation.

That's definitely one way uh that a person could be charged, but if we have an eyewitness to testify to it in court, that would be another way.

And then uh we have our real-time crime center.

So if it was captured on maybe a camera or something of that sort, and a person could be identified, that could be another source of evidence for probable cause to charge.

Okay, I appreciate that because I have had emails from constituents with concerns about public urination and public defection, and the same thing about um like the folks who might be you know um hanging out or sleeping or behind homes or um you know, needles all the way down to litter, you you name it.

Um but I was wondering how someone would in the event you know calls for public urination or defecation.

How do you find that?

How do you find who the fender is?

But in this case, you've answered that question, so I appreciate that.

Ma'am.

Councilmember Ball.

Thank you, Chair.

Um, could you speak about the the any kind of partnership that you have with our neighborhood services, street outreach uh coordinators and also with the bear team in these instances?

Oh, absolutely.

We are strong partners with both the bear unit and the neighborhood services.

Um whenever, for example, whenever we go out on a call for service and there's any element of mental illness at all with it, we can call the bear unit.

They're happy to come out and assist us.

Uh they go out and have contacts on their own, oftentimes self-initiated with folks maybe they've had contact with before.

If they were to need us for safety, they always call us uh with neighborhood services.

We've we've worked with them well forever, but I mean definitely over the last two and a half years, we we go out and support them when they're cleaning up homeless camps, provide security for them with that.

If we uh run across say a homeless camp, then we will let the neighborhood services folks know that's a location that they may want to visit to provide services.

We even we even provide um just as the officers go out all over the city whenever they run across someone who's who's uh unhoused.

We have brochures that we give them that lists all the resources that we have here in the city and beyond veterans' affairs, things of that nature, and provide that to them with phone numbers.

We'll give them rides, whatever we can do to assist them, we're we're doing it.

Yes, sir.

Any other questions, concerns?

Thank you very much for this report.

Um that's all we have on our agenda, but I would like to ask uh Chief Penn if you will come and just give us uh your reaction to the fair and how it was this past two weeks.

Good afternoon, Chair CPO, members of the committee.

You asked me about the fair.

I think it was stated earlier that we made it clear what we would tolerate the code of conduct at the fair, and we found that to be fruitful.

There were people who decided they were going to see if we meant what we said, and we showed them that we did.

And for that reason, um City Manager Pate stated we it was far less issues this year than we had in the past couple years for that very reason.

Great.

And then uh just one more thing.

I'd like to ask for you to tell us the officer that we're going to be celebrating very soon with his international recognition.

Right.

That will be Officer Luke Alderman.

He'll be traveling to many Minnesota, I'm sorry, and Colorado.

He'll be going to Denver, Colorado, um, where we are confident that he will be named the officer of the year for the international, international association of chiefs of police.

Yes, so we want everyone to put good vibes up for our officer for that wonderful recognition on the international level.

Thank you so much, Chief Penn.

You're very welcome.

I'm not gonna pick just on you.

So, Chief Mayo, um, would you just come up and there's just a couple things I like for you to uh chat about?

Um this is October already.

Uh, and I don't know if you have some words of wisdom you'd like to give us on lithium batteries, uh cooking at home, and preparing for the winter.

Surely uh good afternoon to you, uh Madam Chair, Mr.

Mayor, members of the committee and council.

Um so, yes, uh I appreciate you recognizing that October is fire prevention month, as you I'm sure remember the mayor was gracious enough to um uh issue a proclamation um declaring last week officially in Western Salem is fire prevention week.

Uh as it relates so the cheapest thing, the cheapest thing going still related to um saving lives from fire is smoke alarms.

Um, and I would remind everybody that we do have a uh smoke alarm uh free smoke alarm installation program.

They can contact us.

Um the best way is through the website, but they can also uh call on the telephone and we will take those take those orders and we send the appropriate um engine or ladder out as the case may be to install those alarms.

We do not give them away.

We go out and we actually put them on the ceiling.

Um as it relates to uh lithium ion batteries.

Uh they have proliferated uh in America over the last four or five years.

They should that mean they are in everything.

Uh I mean it is kind of the battery technology that that is going there.

It's in portable devices, yard equipment, micro mobility, uh, you know, scooters and hoverboards and those sorts of things, power tools.

Um I may have said that already.

They're in power tools and they're in yard equipment.

Uh and that's the size battery that the the electric lawnmower, the micro mobility device, the scooter, um, hoverboard, those are the size batteries that we really uh uh have a lot of concern about.

Uh that's kind of the magic size to where when they fail, they not only fail from a from a situation of overheating, but they are prone to spewing um debris, uh flam, you know, flaming debris um around them.

So you have multiple points of ignition uh if you know if they're if they're inside.

So um use the use the manufacturer's charger, do not use fast chargers, do not expose dispose of them in the garbage, you know, take them to a recycling facility.

We are seeing we're having in increasing frequencies of uh fires in garbage trucks that have picked up batteries in the trash.

Um we are seeing fires in recycling facilities uh as that recycling material gets processed by machines, it's puncturing, damaging the batteries, and causing them to overheat.

So please be be careful with your lithium ion uh powered equipment.

Um the biggest thing I would tell you about cooking fire safety is these flat top um uh stoves that are are very popular now, and I'm not talking about necessarily induction, but these you know, these glass top um type type um stoves that is not an extension of your countertop.

Uh you should not come in and place the pizza box, the groceries, the mail, whatever it is on that on that on that cooking surface, it is designed for cooking, and when you're not cooking, it should be free of everything, including pots and pans.

Um an electric, an electric stove will get hot enough to melt and set an aluminum frying pan on fire if it sits there long enough.

So don't let your cooktop become an extension of your countertop.

And then as we go into uh the winter uh related to uh, you know, the the for the thing that comes to my mind about what we see problems with uh as the weather gets cold, particularly when we have five or six days in a row where the temperatures don't get out of the 30s.

Um we see a lot of space heater usage, uh be sure, you know, that space heater needs space, it should not be closer than three feet uh from anything combustible, uh curtains, bedding, furniture, uh those sorts of things.

Um, people should not heat with burners like you were, you know, you would use for cooking, they should not open their stove and and use that to heat their homes.

Um and the last thing I will say is if you are using, we don't see a lot of of uh kerosene heaters anymore like we did 30, you know, 25 or 30 years ago, but there are still some out there is they when you fuel them, they should be fueled when that you should let them cool before you fuel them, and be sure.

I mean, they are designed to burn on care to run on kerosene, be sure you are putting the right fuel in them.

Uh gasoline, of course, is obvious why that's a poor choice, but you know, diesel fuel and kerosene are very similar fuels, but diesel fuel is designed as a motor fuel and it has additives in it that are unhealthy when the when they burn and they those products of combustion are filling uh you know confined spaces like like would be in in a home.

So thank you for that opportunity.

Thank you, Chief.

Thank you very much.

Um just so everybody knows that I'm a member of the city university class that's going on right now, the academy, and I want to recommend that anyone who's a resident to attend that program because you learned so much that you thought you knew that you didn't know.

Um one of the good news is that we have excellent staff in this city.

We have people doing marvelous uh work in their particular fields, and you need to know that.

And the best way to know that is to go through that university.

Um I attended the session with the police department, and though I knew many of them, I learned a whole lot.

And uh Chief Mayo actually scared everyone in our class with his videos that you know you don't know what you don't know until you know that you know.

And so I do recommend everyone to attend that program.

It's offered once a year.

Um, so council members, anything else?

Any for the good of the cars?

I I was gonna uh blindside Vernon in August.

August Vernon, but he just left.

He must have known his name was coming up.

Anything else?

For the good of the cause.

Otherwise, we will adjourn.

Thank you.