Digital media, you can't do it.

In particular, that some of the language was very general, uh, concerns about perhaps the code being perceived as as uh targeting certain groups.

So city staff uh continued discussion about the uh about the ordinance and uh drawing really on our experience with the uh with the Caroline Classic Fair in which we adopted a code of conduct to basically set expectations for how folks are expected to behave during the fair.

Uh what staff has put together now is a code of conduct for all of our city parks.

Uh the focus being that this would be a code of conduct that would apply to all of our parks, and that the you know purpose of the code of conduct is to ensure the safety of our parks, but also to make sure that the parks are truly accessible to all individuals.

And so the uh the code amendment that is before you this afternoon, number one does uh continue to to propose a change in the operating hours from sunrise to sunset, still allowing flexibility for certain parts of parks to remain open after sunset for for example, lighted tennis courts, uh those types of facilities.

But then does propose a uh a list of behaviors and rules that would be a part of a code of conduct that would be established in the city code.

Um would you mind pulling that up?

There's a an example of what the signage could look like that would list out uh those expectations for behavior.

So I'm not gonna read through them, but it ranges from you know, gambling on city property, uh use of profanity, vulgar language littering, defacing city property, uh engage in inappropriate physical or verbal contact, you know, involving with drugs, alcohol.

So essentially, uh just a lot of behavior that we would consider to be very disruptive to for the enjoyment of city parks.

Someone who's you know cited for violating the code of conduct could be uh criminally charged, depending on severity of the offense, or also uh temporarily or permanently suspended from city facilities.

So this this is uh kind of the next iteration of our effort to address the issue that we've that we've experienced, not just in Marshall Park, but also with other city parks.

Uh there's data that we provided with this item uh from the police department showing the uh the calls for service from the top ten locations for calls for service in our city parks, Marshall being the top of that one, but Washington Park also being another uh location of concern, and then the top ten types of calls that we've we received.

Be happy to answer any questions.

Thank you, Mr.

Raoul.

I appreciate the changes that the staff has made.

I think um we can always monitor everyone's behavior.

Ideally, it would be great if we never had to have codes of conduct posted in our parks.

But we do.

Uh council members, are there any questions uh you'd like to address Councilmember Scott?

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr.

Raoult, thank you for these changes.

Uh I know we had a a quick conversation about it a week or so ago, and I appreciate what I I see.

Um I do have a a few questions.

Uh first the hours of the park.

Um so today, hypothetically the park will be closed when I think it's the sunsets around 5 30, 6 o'clock.

It's between 5 30 and 6 o'clock.

We're prepared to have everyone vacate unless there's a a sign areas like the tennis courts or a basketball court that has has light attached to it.

Is that correct?

Once this uh becomes effective, that that's correct, yes, sir.

Okay.

Um and then the the in the the list of unacceptable behaviors.

I have one question, the one, two, three, fourth one, failure to follow city staff or law enforcement personnel guidelines and or direction.

That's a very broad and vague statement for me.

Um is there anything that is particular that we can use it as an example?

Um just kind of going I going back to what we originally had as as an as an option or as a um proposed for this for this ordinance.

Um I I just I don't want to see it as a a police officer or a park director or the the the park manager says, hey, you can't bring that suitcase in here, or you can't bring this in here.

Um what what is an example of what that would look like?

So uh Councilmember Andrew Bowman, I I think that that's really more um you know, if if city staff or law enforcement officers provided direction about correcting behavior, and they don't look and they don't comply with that.

Uh again, this what we're proposing now does not that language that was presented last month has been removed, both about personal belongings and about camping.

So it would really be just I think someone failing to comply with an initial directive.

Beautiful, thank you.

And my final question is around the fines, the the fines that you mentioned.

Uh majority of these things are already I think actually all these things are already listed things that are are against our our city code, our city laws.

Do they match with what they currently are if they were happening somewhere else compared to being at a park?

Uh that I'm not a hundred percent sure about, uh, Councilmember Andrew Bowman.

I'll look to our deputy city attorney, Mr.

Contos.

Uh but we can certainly confirm that as well.

Just to clarify, Councilmember Andrew Bowen is you're asking is if a misdemeanor fine is levied for an activity in our code, is it the same anywhere that would be occurring in the city as the same as in a park?

Yes correct.

Let's see if Chief can answer.

Yeah, yeah.

I was just gonna say if it's an ordinance, a violation of a city ordinance, whether it happens in a park or on a sidewalk, it's all going to be the same.

Beautiful.

So that that'll be consistent.

Thank you.

Any other questions?

Okay, I'm done.

Thank you.

Um Councilmember Hall.

Oh.

Oh, the Mayor Protein.

Okay.

So I'll if it's okay, um, Councilmember Sip Yao and then or do you go ahead?

Okay.

Come back to her.

Okay.

Um ACM Rao.

So the uh language around wagons and things like that have been taken out of this um, which I appreciate.

I want to make sure that that's still the case, just because I'm not seeing it.

Okay.

That is correct.

All right.

And then there's um one other thing that I wanted to know under unacceptable behaviors, it does list um smoking or vaping in recreation facilities.

And if I when I read that, I'm thinking about like inside a recruit a recreation center.

And I'm wondering whether or not you know, specifically since we're talking about parks, if you're if the intent was to actually, you know, also apply to you know the city recreational property or something like that.

And I'm wondering whether or not that might be um some language that could be expanded, if that's the case.

Because it it it when you say in it just appears that it is like inside of a rec center.

And if you hopefully that is the case that we don't have people smoking or vaping inside the recreation center, but I think that we might be able to kind of tweak that just a little to make sure that it also reasons if it's covering the grounds of outside with our parks.

And I know that for certain parks they they do have gates, they're they're gated parks.

So if you say sunset, even if someone you know doesn't think that it's actually sunset, the gate can be closed.

So obviously it's sunset to somebody, and so they know that it's closed.

But for other parks like Marshall Park, there is no gate.

Um and so I'm wondering how that would be managed, if that would just be the consistent check-ins from Rec staff or from other city staff, even if that's PD, how would you all thought about that?

I mean, I think that's how we would coordinate that.

Councilmember Hall.

Okay.

That's all I had.

Thank you.

Um, welcome.

Yes, good afternoon, everyone.

Um I know we've all seen uh emails that relate to uh the profanity piece of um us maybe uh not adhering to the freedom of speech.

How are we going to uh deal with that?

And have other cities implemented a lot of what we're doing or similar things to what we're getting ready to do.

So Map Pro Tim Adams, we can certainly look at how other cities have uh gone about enforcing certain provisions.

I think in the case of profanity and vulgar language, I think that if it rises to a level where it's disruptive, and again, that's the focus of of what we're trying to implement here is something to curb disruptive behavior.

We certainly are are uh aware of the potential First Amendment issues that that could arise, but I think that what the intent here with this particular you know behavior is that it's not something that rises to the level that it's disruptive and it is uh causing other folks to not enjoy their experience at the park.

But we can certainly look at uh how other cities have gone about implementing some of these uh provisions.

Um Mr.

Rao, are we also have we also looked at that it's just not the parks?

Uh let's say our bus shelters and other public spaces that are public, but they are now becoming it's unfortunately a place for the unhoused.

I believe that's certainly something that that city staff we can look at if if uh I'm not can't remember if the transit center has a code of conduct.

I believe they do.

They do.

So the transit center currently has a has a code of conduct.

Yeah.

I'm talking about the ones that are in the neighborhoods where people sit to wait on the bus.

Oh.

Bus shelters.

Yes.

I'll let uh Mr.

Fanzler address that.

Thank you for the question, Mayor Pro Tim.

So the bus shelters do fall under our code of conduct, and we do have a program to work with uh the police department and our staff to any issues that may come out of that.

So that program is housed with coordination with the PD, the bear team, and of course our contractor to make sure they're in compliance with the code of conduct and any other applicable laws, if it's a no trespassing issue or the like.

So all those things combined, we manage the transit facilities.

Thank you.

Any other questions, Mayor Pro Tim?

No, thank you.

Uh, Councilmember Joyner.

Thank you, ma'am.

Chair, um, just a note, there has been some concern from several folks about sunrise and sunset and the concern of being in the park after sunset.

Um if there is um for safety purposes, if you thought about most parks, if you're as caught in the middle of that park at after dark, after the sunset, um, you'd have some challenges because it's not a lit area in most of the parks.

Is that correct, Mr.

Rack?

I believe that's correct.

Councilmember.

So the concern of having your child playing in the park after dark or after the sunset, I think um there is a little bit of um a little bit of allowance that we all have to have to keep everyone safe and not just inconvenience.

Um if that's the only place you have to take your kids to a playground, you can't see whether there's uh glass on the ground or something while uh where they're if they're playing.

So I just wanted to make that a public point.

Um it has come up several times.

And as we uh note it that the lighted areas are those that would be permissible after the sunset.

Yes, ma'am.

And also if there are any events uh being held.

All right.

Thank you so much.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you.

Um Councilmember Hall.

Thank you.

I I do have one other question, ACM Rao.

For folks that would be enforcing this, these um the code of conduct, will we be looking at recreation staff like recreation leaders and senior recreation leaders in addition to police officers?

Or would it would you would it mainly be the onus of police officers that would be trying to enforce the codes of conduct?

So we do have uh a park ranger who is sworn police officer.

So that probably would be the primary uh you know individual to do some enforcement.

I think that if if there's an event going on and recreation staff are there, that they could also be involved.

But as far as you know, charging somebody, I mean, that would have to be law enforcement.

But but just for clarity, we would not be expecting the recreation center staff or other parks to have to be trying to enforce the codes of conduct at the various parks.

Yeah.

Uh uh, Councilmember Hall, I I I think the issue is our first line of defense is always going to be the staff that's on that's at a facility.

So if um if you're at a playground and there is a staff member that's present and they see activities that are inconsistent with the code of behaviors, then that person would normally tell the offending party this is not in compliance with our code of behaviors and ask them to cease doing that.

The issue is going to become if it becomes a continuous behavior, then they would call either the park ranger or the police department.

But but we're not intending to have the police department come out every time some something minor happens at a park.

So the the issue is that is that we would ask our staff to let people know if they are violating the code of behaviors, because I think in the in the vast majority of cases, those individuals probably just don't know that that something's offending someone else, and just you know, loud music could be an example that's bothering us somebody else's uh renting a neighboring facility or or uh shelter, letting people know that that is going on.

Most people want to comply and just have a good time in the park.

If it becomes egregious, then you would bring in additional enforcement.

And we just have for clarity, one park ranger.

We have one currently.

We have two park ranger positions, but one is currently filled.

Okay.

Thank you.

Councilmember Burke.

Thank you, Chair Scipio.

Uh will we have the actual times posted at each park uh specifically instead of uh the park operating hours will be from sunrise to sunset, but to actually specify the time that the park will open and the time that the park will close.

And of course, this time will have to change uh when daylight uh savings time changes.

Will we actually have those times?

No, ma'am.

I believe that the the intent of this change because the current code does specify uh actual operating hours, but knowing that it could vary in terms of when we have experience a sunset and a sunrise, that it would just remain that kind of language.

If if you look at other other jurisdictions, that is consistent language across most cities that parks are open from sunrise to sunset, as councilmember joyner mentioned.

Generally speaking, after dark, the play the liability issues there for the parents with their kids there or for the city are tremendous.

And so you don't want people in the dark at I mean when we have their natural areas, so that's not where you want people at.

But the sunrise and sunset, as you as you are aware, changes slightly every day.

Sometimes it's getting longer, sometimes it's getting shorter, depending on the time of year.

So that there isn't an effective way to actually post a time unless we're going to if we're going to do sunrise to sunset.

Okay.

I only ask because uh there are some parks that actually have signs that say uh what the parks operating hours are.

Thank you.

Anyone else with any other questions?

Oh, okay.

I have two more questions, thank you.

Um what are the current hours of the park operating hours?

Uh Councilman Andrew Bowen, I don't have those with me.

Uh sunrise here.

Is it like what time do they close?

I think I think it's it.

I thought it was sunset.

So it is officially sunset now.

I'm almost positive.

The golf course says that.

I've got the code over there, the current code over there beside me.

Um, trying to be specific.

That's probably unless they're otherwise posted, as Councilmember Burke said.

There are some parks that do have posted hours.

And usually those are lighted facilities where they've got where the lights are on later and sunset.

7 a.m.

to 10 30 p.m.

Okay.

Um Ms.

Clark?

Let's don't lose fact to the practicality here.

Most parks you're not going to play in after sunset because you can't see.

That's true.

Uh whether it's a golf course or uh whatever, if they're lighted or indoors, those are usually controlled by staff.

Uh tennis lights oftentimes have timers.

I think they do cut off at a certain time in buildings do close.

But I think there's some practicality here.

Same thing with enforcement.

We don't have police officers or rangers monitoring most parks.

Uh they usually show up if there's a call for service.

So I think there's some practicality here that these rules will tend to make sense because people are going to go home when it's supper time and it's dark and you can't play outside any longer.

Mr.

Raoult, thank you so much.

Um I think one thing we have to always remember, sometimes when we're making regulations, we're always thinking of some type of controlling attitude that we might have.

Um and our residents, we also have to say that many of them have pretty decent sense.

Um old schools would say you better be home, photo street lights come on.

Um so I think we have to give our residents a little benefit of the doubt.

These regulations are just uh for those who choose not to um demonstrate the best behavior that could be offensive to the rest of us, and I think these are good codes of conduct.

How we would like for the residents of this city to behave in our many parks and recreation facilities.

Um is there um we have to vote on this?

Do we have a motion on this particular make a motion?

Is there a second?

Second.

Thank you.

All in favor?

Aye.

Aye.

All in opposed.

So that passes.

At this time, Mr.

Mayor, thank you.

Council member, I'm sorry to interrupt uh your committee agenda, but uh just found out that Mayor Pro Tim actually wanted item C9 pull from the consent agenda.

So without objection from the City Council, we will go back to the consent agenda and deal with item C9.

Item C9 resolution approving the issuance of up to 20.5 million multifamily housing revenue bonds for the residences at Indiana Avenue to satisfy Section 147 F of the Internal Revenue Code.

Mayor Pertham, you have questions.

Yes, thank you, Mayor.

Uh I don't know what happened.

I was waving my hands, I was doing whatever I needed to do, and I was even talking and nobody heard me.

But what my question is is that uh is this going to be the norm going forward that when developers and projects that we uh vote on get turned down uh for low-income tax credits, that they will be coming to us well, asking the city to be the pass through for these bonds.

I know we've done this already for three or four other projects, but uh I am wondering, like I asked uh assistance city manager right lanier today, that is uh other cities experiencing this.

And what happens if there's another housing credit like 808 and 09?

Uh I would also like to know again that or ask that we keep a running tally that the council is aware of and who we're doing this for.

But again, uh I'm just concerned that you know that means that everybody that wants to applies the low-income tax credits, we know how hard it is to get them that uh they're gonna backtrack and come and ask us to do this.

Ms.

Lake.

Um Good afternoon, Mayor Joins, Mayor Pro Tim Adams and members of City Council.

Um I'm not sure if we're seeing an uptick just because of the amount of housing efforts that are currently ongoing.

Um I know it is very common for um agencies to try to get these types of revenue bonds um tax exempt, and to do that, of course, the IRS code requires you all to provide um your approval for that to occur.

But um, as we've had with the other projects, that doesn't obligate the city in any way, and you all would not be endorsing the project.

Um it's not city debt, we're not co-signing.

Um it's just an IRS tax code requirement.

Um we do have a list of those we've approved in the past, which we can provide that if you'd like to see that.

Um I do believe our peers have had these types of requests as well, but I can't currently speak to the frequency, but we can try to find out um if there's been an uptick, but I think it's just the increased housing activity.

Let me jump jump in here.

This these are not low-income tax credit bonds.

These are just regular revenue bonds.

This is a non I know.

I know, Councilmember Clark.

Well, let me let me finish, please.

The IRS, the federal government requires the city, the local governing authority to have a public hearing and endorsement of these.

This is the housing authority.

This is not halls, there are aspire.

Aspire expire.

Issuing them.

But we only vote on these if it's a public entity.

Well, I know we've done some for Salem College.

Yes.

Um we've done a housing authority before, and maybe one side of the state.

I don't know if we do theirs or not.

That one doesn't ring a bell.

But anyway, but the these are not the housing authority bonds that are issued, and we only vote on these if they are quasi-government agencies, I believe.

And we only vote on these if they are quasi-government agencies, I believe.

Right, because they do qualify for the tax exempt debt issuance only if we if you approve.

Yeah, I'm not sure the uh the housing finance bonds are tax-free, so I don't know that for a fact.

You may want to let Mr.

Ortiz talk about this, but I think uh Mayor Tim Adams had another question before we have to do that.

Go ahead, Ms.

Adams.

Thank you.

So in other words, there is no limit to how many of these uh transactions we can do.

No, um, because again, we're not we're not pledging the city's um debt capacity.

Um it's just doing this for each agency that may come forward with a project in our vicinity in our jurisdiction.

Um I do believe we have a representative here as well from Aspire, if you'd like to hear from them.

No, I'm good.

I just want us to be aware.

Uh I believe in knowing.

And if other cities are doing this, the cities that we benchmark uh all the time, if we can, I'd like to know how many of these they've done.

Again, to Councilman McClark's credit.

I know that there is basically nothing we can do to stop it, but at least I'd like to be aware of what is what is the reality of it all.

That we know we see in an uptick because of housing, but you know, for us to be sending these through now on a frequent basis, uh, I just like to be made aware.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Let me make another comment there.

I not only do I not want to stop them, I would actually encourage them, whether or not a sure or the housing authority sells these bonds is up to the marketplace, whether or not they feel they are worthy of investment, or be it Salem College or whoever, or uh way forest to whoever might.

But we're not making the judgment call on the financial stability of the organization in question.

We're simply adhering to an IRS requirement that they have a public do on it.

But but I would say I've been up here 25 years, and I don't think we've had more than six or seven in that time period.

Ms.

Rao.

What do you think?

Yeah.

Now we've had two of the last three months.

Uh maybe maybe four in the last couple of years.

Four, yeah.

Um Aspire already held the their public hearing.

Sometimes the council has to do that, but in this case, aspire has already held the public hearing.

Sir, would you like to make a comment?

Come on up.

Everybody needs to meet you.

You the new uh aspire uh director.

Go ahead and make a comment.

Head or a CEO of Aspire.

It really it's a win-win, and I think Councilmember Clark had it right on the head.

It's a win-win.

Uh, we're issuing the uh uh multi-housing uh bonds.

Uh we get affordable housing built in our community.

Um we're also providing project-based vouchers for this project, so it's serving um 30, 60, and 80 percent AMI in our community.

So uh it's a win-win for everyone.

Okay, thank you.

Mr.

Mayor, uh get a vote on it.

Can I get approval of this or motion?

I'll make a motion.

Second.

Motion second.

All in favor, say aye.

Aye.

Opposed likewise.

I'll turn it back over back to Council Recifio.

Thank you.

Uh item number two.

Resolution.

Resolution establishing the City of Winston-Salem as a vision zero community and formalizing a vision zero coalition to support the development of a comprehensive safety action plan.

Thank you, Mr.

Pancler.

Tell us about this particular vision zero.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mayor, Mayor Pro Tim Adams, members of the committee and council, thank you for the time this afternoon.

So this item before you uh is request to approve a resolution establishing West and Salem as a Vision Zero community.

So what is Vision Zero?

Well, in 2015, the North Carolina Executive Committee for Highway Safety passed a Vision Zero resolution in response to the rising number of deaths and serious injuries on North Carolina roads.

According to NC DOT, in 2024, approximately 1,732 people were killed on North Carolina roads, 30 of which were here in Winston-Salem.

So Vision Zero is a comprehensive road safety strategy aimed at reducing deaths and serious injuries with a long-term goal to get to zero.

So it's worth noting additionally that under the stewardship and exceptional grant writing ability of our own transportation planner, Redwanna Allen, who's here with us this afternoon, we did apply for and did receive a safe streets and roads for all grant award from the United States Department of Transportation.

So a couple of things there.

That grant award will enable us to develop a safety action plan for road safety.

One of the requirements, however, though, is that the grant award, we have to include a public commitment from the governing body that will that essentially is that we will adopt a vision zero resolution to formalize our commitment at reducing fatalities.

The resolution would further direct staff to establish a coalition made up of broad range of community members, that's DOT staff, NCDOT staff, transportation advocates, county schools, fire emergency management, et cetera.

Basically, to establish that coalition to advise staff on our safety action plan and protocol.

And the whole goal there is just aimed at reducing the overall fatalities and serious injuries with that program.

Now, all that being said, it should be noted that there is no financial commitment with this particular uh resolution of support today.

Um, as we can all kind of infer from there, that projects that come out of our safety action plan would of course have to fall under our normal procurement policy and compete for other with other projects for future funding consideration.

So really the item before you is consideration of the resolution just establishing what's in Salem as a vision zero community, enabling myself and my staff to embark and on and engage FHWA to formalize our grant agreement for the safety action plan and then to establish this community as a vision zero community, which will help move the ball down the field.

And then any projects that come from that, of course, we'll have to compete for funding, as all others do that you are likely aware of.

I'm happy to take any questions.

Mr.

Pansler, that grant was 280,000.

That's correct.

And that's for us to establish um planning group.

Do we have a timetable on when that grant um the plan will start and when we expect to have some results?

Great question, Councilmember Scipio.

So we're finalizing the grant agreement right now with FHWA.

We're expected to have that completed.

My goal is by the end of the calendar year, the shutdown is causing some question marks there.

Um but first of the year in our early 2026, we plan to have an RFP on the street for a consultant to be engaged to help us develop this safety action plan, which is what that 280,000 cover.

And then from there, on the first quarter and second quarter, we'll be we'll be developing that program with the consultant to establish that safety action plan.

So this at large is a 2026 program, assuming that we can finalize the grant agreement by the end of this calendar year.

All right.

Any questions?

Oh, Councilmember Clark?

Do you have a list or will you be developing lists of let's call them safety hot spots or places where we tend to have more?

Councilmember Clark, we have uh quite a number of of uh projects on our list and heat map, so to speak, where we understand where there are sensitive areas that have higher tendencies for crash and fatality.

Additionally, what we have is comprehensive planning documents like our comprehensive transportation plan.

A big part of this effort, Councilmember Clark, will be to take that information and develop a strategy to implement actionable projects that help make these improvements that are already identified in our planning documents and satisfy the needs that we've identified at these hot spots.

So it's going to look at currently adopted plans and then develop actionable strategies to develop projects that could be aimed at solving those problems.

Could you please send me the hot spots in the West Ward?

I expect everybody else probably would like theirs too.

We'll know what we're working on.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councilmember.

Any other questions?

Councilmember.

Mayor Pro Tim Adams.

Oh, Mayor Pro Tem Adams.

Yes, thank you, Mr.

Fansler.

Uh, as you remember, we had the big report from the state about the transportation safety of the state of North Carolina at the TAC committee, the Transportation Advisory Committee.

And one of the things that all of the members, which are cities around Winston, it's about 20.

Uh, again, is the concern that automobiles being more plentiful every day on all streets and highways.

And we have a lot of people that like to go fast.

And we have a lot of people that don't adhere to the law.

And you remember my concern was, and that the committee's concern is we have these goals, but you know, my thing is always that we can be safer, but how do we change the mindset of the culture of humanity?

That they don't have to do 90 and 70 and 60 and 30, and and I applaud uh the state for giving us the grant and your team.

But uh I'm looking forward to see what you can do if we focus, as you said, on the high priority areas that the most accidents happen.

Maybe we can make a dent in it.

But uh going forward, you know, it's a tall task.

It's just a tall task.

Mayor Per Tim, I'll make a comment there because I appreciate you saying that one of the one I think one of the missions that I'll charge the coalition that we develop will be to, especially with folks like from the school system from our emergency management that are in the community that may have a perception on how to educate folks, different perspective than we have.

That'll be a mission for all of us to engage those work groups on their opinions to mark to market and communicate how we collectively change that culture.

Thank you.

Council members, anyone else with the comment?

Oh, Scott.

Thank you, ma'am chair.

Uh one two questions.

Uh are these um looking at automobile accidents only or automobile accidents and pedestrian deaths with around uh vehicles.

It's a motor, it's a modal mix, so it could be any any mode of transportation.

So we'll be looking at safety hot spots regardless of transportation mode.

Beautiful, thank you.

Council members, we need a vote on this.

Do I have a vote for approving this?

Approval.

Is there a second?

Oh Pro Tim, you did second second.

Thank you.

Um let's have all in favor of the motion.

Aye.

That passes.

Thank you.

And Madam Clerk, number three.

Information on adoption of civil service board appeal hearing rules with a public hearing, potentially December 1st, 2025.

Good afternoon, Mayor, Mayor Tim, and Council.

Um, this is an informational item today to talk about the rules that the Civil Service Board um has approved.

We'll come back to you all for adoption that will serve as kind of their operating guidelines as the Civil Service Board um starts to hear grievance appeals.

Um Dr.

Miller is the chair of our civil service board.

He is here today, so I just wanted to tee this up and then I'll let him speak from the board's perspective.

We have this as an informational item today because as you'll note on the agenda, we have two different attachments.

We have the um rules as approved by the board, and then there are a set of rules that is proposed by staff that represents feedback from both police and fire chiefs, managers' office, HR, and the city attorney's office.

And since we do have some differences in those, a few changes that staff recommends.

Um, wanted to make sure we brought this first as an informational item.

I believe Jamie sent an email last week uh to schedule a special meeting next Monday at 4 p.m.

in advance of the regular council meeting to have a have time for more discussion as we have a packed agenda tonight tonight.

So that is the kind of high-level overview of the rules.

Um I'll let Dr.

Miller speak to um kind of the work that the board has taken to to get to that set of rules, and then we can certainly answer any um answer any questions, but just know that we would have a more detailed discussion next week on the 17th.

Dr.

Miller.

Thank you for coming.

Good afternoon, uh, Mayor Jones, uh, Mayor Pro Tim Adams and Council members.

Uh, thank you all for having me here this afternoon.

Um let me start by saying thank you for your vote of confidence and appointing me as chair, I think.

Uh we have uh gone through the state laws, the statutes, the rules and procedures at nauseum.

Um, and the document that you have from us is what the five of us have come up with uh as a civil service board.

Uh our understanding is that uh the last say so comes from the council and whatever you all derive and uh commit to and approve, those are the operating procedures that we will be operating under.

Uh and so I just wanted to be here.

I was asked to come today just to greet you all and let you know that we have been working diligently.

It has taken uh much longer than I think any of us anticipated.

Uh, but we are glad that we are finally at this point uh where it comes before you, and we are awaiting uh whatever document you approve, uh, and we will abide by those documents as we receive them back.

Do you all have any questions for me?

Councilmember Hall.

Go ahead, Miller.

Thank you, Council Hall.

I just wanted to thank uh Dr.

Miller for uh accepting this uh voluntom, I guess.

Uh and you did a great job there providing leadership to this newly formed organization.

Uh, personally, and I'm sure on behalf of the council greatly appreciate your work as well as the work of the rest of the members.

Thank you, Mayor.

Councilmember Hall.

Thank you.

Uh Dr.

Miller, thank you for being here today.

Thank you for your leadership.

Um if you if you all, which I presume had the opportunity to look at the revisions with the draft rules.

I presume maybe attorney um contos, maybe that was the city attorney's office, maybe working or in with staff working on some things, but um are you all pretty much good with seeing all the revisions too of what you all came up with?

I know that you say that you all spent quite some time with this.

We have copies of the revisions, and we did not have a lot of discussion about that at the last meeting.

Okay.

Uh so we have our revisions, we have you all's revisions, we were presented with those to look them over.

And at our last meeting, uh the first two or three meetings were very contentious because there is a difference in interpretation of the state law in some of the statutes.

Uh but the last couple of meetings that we have had have been more congenial.

Uh so our last meeting went very well, and we did not have a lot of discussion.

We're just awaiting to see what council approves.

Okay.

We understand that whatever you all approve, that's what we abide by.

Okay, and thank you for that.

And ACM voida, uh I guess there will be time.

So you you mentioned an hour before the next council meeting.

So coming up on the third Monday, that there will be an opportunity.

Okay.

All right.

Okay, thank you.

So there at least is a little bit of time.

And if I could add, um, Councilmember Hall.

So as Jamie mentioned, we're planning for uh hoping to have the public hearing on the first.

So the state statute provides for a public hearing on these rules before council adopts them.

So we uh had a our regular scheduled civil service board meeting last week.

Um, as Chair Miller said, we presented them with a copy of the um revisions that you all see.

There were no significant changes, nothing that had not been discussed prior, um, but wanted to have that more detailed, almost kind of committee of the whole meeting to be able to talk in more detail next Monday.

Um there's obviously public hearing, I mean normal public comment next Monday, and then assuming it goes well next week um with you all, then plan to bring those rules back for formal adoption and the formal public hearing on the first meeting in December, which I think is the first.

Okay.

So there is a public uh formal public hearing as part of the process to adopt the rules.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Any other questions for me?

Chairman, I'm a question.

I was just gonna say any specific comments we have, we'll get back with you individually.

Is that okay?

Sure.

Thank you.

And sir, don't assume we like it just because we voted for you to be chairman.

I don't assume that.

I'm thinking you might not like me.

Short star shawl.

But anyway, thank you for your service.

Thank you.

Councilmember Scott.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Uh when we look at this again, will we be voting between the two different options, or will we there be kind of a commingling of the two?

Um so staff is presenting right now.

We have presented our recommended rules that and we've gone through uh the version on the agenda that reflects staff's changes, has them in track changes, kind of strike through underline and highlights, and then the item summary also called out those um specific changes as well.

So we'll talk in more detail about them next week, though.

Thank you.

Any other questions, concerns?

Thank you.

Um thank you so much, uh, Pastor.

The um the challenge for this board is to be able to come together and do what is fair and just for everyone concerned.

And that oftentimes can be an opportunity that people don't always want to embrace.

Um, but the civil service board is should not be a weapon of vindictiveness, but is something that all people involved will have to live with, not an individual, but everything, because you're setting the road for that.

So I embrace you and send all my prayers to you and your committee, because that's not an easy task to try to determine how we will resolve disputes.

Um, but I know you're well able.

Thank you, Councilman Scipio.

Uh, our goal is to be fair to all parties involved.

That's my goal, and I do believe that all five members, that's our goal.

Even though we have differences of opinion at times, I think our goal is to be fair to everyone.

And uh just trying to have a little bit of sense of humor.

Thank you all for appointing me.

Is you know, I've been in more difficult situations.

I'm a pastor of a church, a fairly large church.

So if I can deal with church folk, I can do it with anybody.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Um Madam Chair, I think we were um Deputy Attorney Contos was going to give you some little more details on the Deputy Attorney Contos.

Nope I'm sorry?

I was gonna ask what details would you like.

Well, that's that's not going to happen, right?

We can re reserve that until next Monday if that's council's desire.

Well, council, that's the um end of our public safety agenda.

Thank you.

Thank you, uh Madam Chairman.

We'll now move to the general government um uh section there, and it'll be presided over by Vice Chair Joyner.

Thank you, Mayor.

Um if we can get item one under general government resolution affirming the city of Winston Salem's commitment to housing availability choice and the elimination of housing barriers.

Good afternoon, Mayor, Mayor Pur Tem and members of council.

I'll um I'll provide a brief summary on this one.

So in 2024, the North Carolina uh Realtors Association commissioned a Carolina core housing study, and so this looked at a stretch of North Central North Carolina, anchored on the western end by the triad and the eastern end by Fayetteville.

And the whole premise behind this is that we've experienced a large amount of growth and development in North Carolina, which is great.

But in order to not hamper that growth, there's got to be the available housing to support that additional growth moving forward.

And so the study really looks at housing gaps and projected housing needs over the foreseeable future.

And so, as part of that, TreeBIC or the Triad Real Estate Building Industry Council has reached out to local governments in the triad to essentially uh affirm their support for um eliminating barriers to housing, housing choice, and housing availability moving forward.

You probably have seen some um press recently in Greensboro, the road to 10,000.

That was an initiative they launched in response to this, an effort to create 10,000 housing units moving forward.

Um after Greensboro adopted that, um TreeBick had reached out to us and for Scythe County to see if we'd be willing to partner on a similar initiative here.

And so that's essentially what you've got here before you is a resolution that is really again reaffirming the city's commitment to removing barriers to housing, increasing housing availability and housing choice moving forward so that so that we are ready employees to support the economic development coming to the triad with the housing that it demands.

This is an effort that we um uh reached out to for Syth County on.

They have some interest in this as well.

Um so there, the Board of County Commissioners will also be taking up the similar resolution that you have in your packets in December as well for a joint adoption there.

So what this does is again is not committing any financial resources, it's just reaffirming again in line with City Council strategic planning goals the commitment to housing here in Winston-Salem.

So Kim Phillips with TreeBick is here, and Aaron Lang, president of the home builders association are here if you'd like to hear from them.

And I've also got Chris Murphy and Michael Blair here if there's any questions on this one.

Council.

Mr.

Clark.

I would like to hear from the TriVac folks if they're here.

Just a brief word, if you'd like I will preface this by saying there's oftentimes a lively discussion between local governments and the building community on uh what's the appropriate thing to build, but I would appreciate your uh perspective on it.

Absolutely.

Thank you so much, Mayor.

Mayor Pro Tem, members of council.

I apologize for my coughing fit.

Um I'm on the tail end of a cold, so I apologize.

Um you're right, there are a lot of lively debates um on housing, what belongs, what doesn't belong, um, but that's not what we want this resolution or initiative to really state at this point.

The resolution that we would like at the end of the day would really just maintain the momentum you guys have already begun for housing and housing availability of all types.

Um there's a real need for housing across Winston Salem and Forsyth County, and this resolution would build on the work that you've already done to address them.

Over the past few years, you've already taken a lot of meaningful steps from multiple UDO text amendments to the adoption of 40 2045, all aimed at increasing housing choice and reducing unnecessary barriers.

This resolution would keep that momentum going and moving by committing to further analysis of missing middle housing, ADUs, and appropriate density along growth corridors.

For our members, clarity and predictability matter, and a clear commitment to supporting additional housing through 2045 helps to create an environment where builders can invest confidently and deliver the homes to this community.

And this would be housing for all.

Thank you.

Yes, Councilmember Sylvia.

I just have a quick question.

How will this resolution be used outside of just us saying that we adopt this?

What are what are the implications that this resolution will have?

Yeah, so I think it's a few things.

Um, when um companies are considering coming to Forsyth County and Winston Salem for economic development, it's a good tool for Mark Owens and the team over at Greater Winston Salem Inc.

to show a commitment that on record from the City Council to make sure there's going to be appropriate housing there to support the workforce needs that come to the to the community.

I think the second thing I would tell you is planning staff and and Michael and his staff in housing are going to be continuing to work on various policies, initiatives, and processes moving forward to help bring this goal to life.

And we're going to continue to point back to this resolution as council's commitment to these goals to make sure everybody's clear on where this originated from you.

I think it's real important that we all recognize that there is a definitive need for housing at all levels, at all uh market rates, uh low low rates.

Um it was uh a housing summit that was held here in Winston-Salem back in the uh several months ago back in the spring, and it did come to light uh a bit clearer, just how intense the need and the numbers, and it's not just Winston-Salem or Forsyth County, but as we hear on the news all the time, it is across the country, and we need to make sure that Winston-Salem and Forsyth County, Winston-Salem specifically, is at the forefront of making things better for citizens today and tomorrow, and not just be the mainstay of what we used to do.

So I appreciate your uh presentation.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Can I make one more?

Yes, sir.

I'll use the second half of my five minutes.

I think it was last spring in Greenville, North Carolina at the North Carolina Legal Municipalities annual meeting that Durham presented their findings.

They took some significant steps to I think it was in the uh Cessor Dwelling Unit and with Duplexes and triplexes.

It would be interesting.

They greatly modified their ordinances to make those much easier to build.

I went to the presentation.

I would be curious if they uh, and I may even suggest this to our league folks.

I think it's worthy of a good case study.

But I think they pretty much adopted it by right that you could put an accessory dwelling unit if you had a single family.

Whatever they were.

And what their results were.

Uh, and I just proposed that.

I don't know if there's a white paper out there somewhere if Durham's published anything.

But uh I remember it was not as overwhelming as we would have thought it would be.

It was a fairly non-event, at least what I remember from the presentation.

But anyway, I would just offer that to you as a good database.

Councilmember Clark, I think you're talking about Durham's housing choice initiative, and they started that around 2019, 2020, so it's been in effect for several years now.

Planning staff was tracking that for a while, and we could probably get some data on that to show what those results were and bring that back at a future date.

Yeah, thank you.

All right.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Can I get a motion?

Approval.

Second.

All those in favor?

Aye.

Anyone opposed?

Eyes have it.

All right.

Item two.

Consideration of the 2026 City Council meeting calendar.

Questions?

Concerns?

I have a comment.

Yes, ma'am.

Um I was looking at this calendar, and I would like for us not to include the Black Theater Festival as part of our council calendar, because it's not a city event.

Thank you, Councilmember.

If you if you may, I can provide a few uh highlights on the calendar so you're aware or other folks are aware of what you're looking at.

Um the calendar has been presented, does continue to keep our council meetings on the typically on the first and third Mondays of each month, except for when there's a holiday or other event that bypasses that.

Uh typically your committee meetings would continue to be on the second, Monday, and Tuesday of the month, unless you have another large event going on that month, which we then would use try to use committee of the whole to avoid you having so many meetings in each month.

I would highlight that there is a city retreat uh planned again this year for uh Jane for these January 14th and 15th uh in that first month.

If you look back in in terms of items that are changing, the the one area that's that is there is in the middle of the calendar for what is traditionally been uh a council recess time.

With our existing model, typically the way the process works is we have committee meetings, then you have a uh public comment period so folks can uh comment on what was occurring at the committee meetings, and we have public hearings on our planning items, and that's the third Monday of the month, and then the first Monday of the month, you would then adopt or act on the items that were coming out of the committee uh agendas.

So the one change that's made in uh this year, uh as in many years in June.

If we took off July, we would have committee meetings in June.

You would not act on those on the third committee meeting in June, and those items would be held over until August.

So we've uh modified the schedule a little bit to show the first committee meeting, council meeting in July with the holidays around on both of those sides, and then starting public the committee was back up in August and following that same process.

So those items didn't set so long.

We highlighted the International Black Theater Festival just on this uh on the calendar for you, and you're right, it's not a city event, but that was just so council would be aware that in adopting this that would give you um our recess time around the International Black Theater Festival for this upcoming year so that folks could attend those with and I know there's a mostly evening events without having city council meetings that would be in conflict uh with those.

Uh the other thing that's on the agenda that's uh a little different is we're looking at trying to schedule a formal town hall meetings with uh in the city once in the spring, at least once in the spring and once in the fall on those meetings, those months that you do not have other potential meetings like budget hearings, the National League of Cities meetings, the National North Carolina League of Municipalities, and those would be open to the full community based on the issues that council wanted to see addressed at those meetings.

Those are not taking the place of council meetings that you're having on a routine basis in with your uh in your neighborhoods or with your uh with neighborhood associations or for single issue things that come up, but this would be just a couple of organized events where we would have staff available to answer questions and a formal agenda that council uh wanted to have discussed with the community.

Spring is oftentimes a great time to do a budget discussion with the community as an example.

Uh the fall, generally speaking, is more uh strategic priority issues or other things that you would want to do.

So those are some of the major issues that are on there.

The you would get a traditional calendar like you've got in the past.

Uh Jamie's laid it out in this format so you could see the dates pretty easily.

But in our your official calendar for the year that would be posted online, would not have those extra events uh that you that are not city events, but would have these events on those.

Thank you, manager.

Yes, ma'am.

Mr.

Payne, I don't know if you noticed, but the September and October have a town hall, so I think you need to delete one of them.

And and that's those both of those would would typically work.

Uh so that so they're they're on there for you to to tell us which one you think would be would be the better time to meet.

But we yes, we can choose whichever one of those that council desires.

Is the fair the last week of September?

Or the first week of August.

Okay.

The September one was is usually a good time.

People have come back.

You get people going back to school.

That that's usually when people are getting re-engaged with their local government and other activities.

So September would be a good, probably a likely a good event for that one or good time.

Anyone have a consideration?

We adopt is this just an information?

Uh the ultimately you do adopt your calendar to set for the next year.

Um so we are looking for you to move it through.

It doesn't have to be adopted tonight.

You if you want to to ponder it and we can come back on uh next Monday at the special meeting and see if there are other issues that you want to consider on this or not.

Councilmember Andrew Bruin.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Um so I know that this past budget year we held a lot of uh community meetings around the budget in late May and in June.

Are are we having plans of doing that again for the next budget cycle?

Um yes, sir.

There's if you look on the May May calendar calendar.

Now these are the council meetings that you're having.

There were there were a couple of additional meetings that the budget staff had with the community, and we can still schedule those, but you do you can see your committee of the whole budget meetings in uh May.

We're uh I don't think Scott's in here, but we're the the budget process has moved up about a week uh this year from where it was last year.

So you you see we have a council meeting.

The the intent is to present a budget on May 4th.

You will have the uh North College League of Municipality meeting, the r the balance of that week, and then we'd come back, you would have a committee of the whole on the 11th, and then follow that right back up with budget meetings on the 12th and 14th, and then the 21st, leading towards hopefully a council adoption on June 1st.

And but we will have community meetings in the community where people can come and talk to us about the budget.

That was I don't see that on the calendar.

I see the community community and the committee of the whole thing.

There is a town hall scheduled for uh April the 23rd, which we assume will be fairly budget heavy.

Okay, in terms of folks talking about that.

If if you the other meetings that we had were not budget staff focused on doing those, and and those aren't included on this calendar, but can be included if that's what the council desires.

Thank you.

May I have a motion?

Umber Hall.

Thank you.

Um this may be a motion, it may be a quick question if that's okay.

Start with your question.

Okay, thank you.

Um if we were to table the vote for the calendar uh adoption today, when would that come back?

The next general government meeting.

Or next Monday.

It would be preferable to put it on the special uh special meeting at the o'clock on next Monday.

Okay.

Ultimately, you what you want us to do is get these dates established so we can get them out for everybody's calendars.

Correct.

Um Madam Uh Chair.

Yes, yes, okay.

Um I move that we table the adoption to a special meeting that will take place on Monday, which is November the 17th.

Do I have a second?

All those in favor?

Aye.

Posed?

It passes.

We're going to table until Monday.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Item three.

Three.

Update on union station.

Uh Mr.

Rao.

Afternoon.

Vice Chairman.

Uh joiner.

So back in July 2014, the city approved the issuance of $18.3 million in limited obligation bonds for the redevelopment of union station.

The project was completed in September 2019.

Uh a lot's happened here in the last uh couple years, and and uh management felt like it was time to provide you all an update on where where we are with Union Station on the usage of union station.

So I'm just going to kind of go level by level, starting with the bottom level, which is the first level, and that's where our city DOT uh resides.

Um that space was upfitted uh and they were moved in there in in 2020.

Um so they've continued to operate in there since then our traffic signal uh operations center is is in that in that level.

Moving up to the second level, back in January of 2021, the council approved the lease agreement with Winston-Salem State University for them to utilize the entire second floor uh for various academic uh functions.

It was a uh 10-year lease, and as part of that, the city and the in Winston Salem State would share in the cost of upfitting the space.

We were informed earlier this year that the university did not wish to move forward with that lease.

Uh we had completed the upfit, and so uh so that lease was effectively terminated.

Um the university did pay for their share of the cost of the upfit, which amounted to 241,570.

So since then, management has been looking at that space and and other alternatives for utilizing that space, and as you all saw when you did the tour of City Yard earlier this year, that we are in in need of probably relocating some staff to uh to to better facilities, and so one of the options that we're exploring is the idea of moving the engineering field office out of the Joyceland Johnson municipal facility there on Lowry Street into the second level space, thus freeing up that space at the Johnson municipal facility for us to then perhaps relocate some staff from City Yard into that building.

So uh so that planning is is underway uh right now.

And then if we move on up to the third level, which is at the level of Martin Luther King Drive, uh in September 2020, the mayor and council approved the resolution to establish the minimum requirements uh for an RFP to solicit offers from potential restaurant operators to lease the space on the third level to potentially operate a full service restaurant uh in that space.

Umce that time staff continues to evaluate the the feasibility of actually uh upfitting that space for a full service restaurant and in talking to uh the architects that has worked with us extensively on the redevelopment of the building, uh we have concluded that the feasibility of upfitting the space for a full service restaurant really isn't uh possible.

And so the uh the architect did provide us a an opinion, and that is included with this item, basically stating that the penetrations that would be required to upfit the space for a full service restaurant would damage a lot of the historic elements of the building and uh make it difficult to comply with the design review guidelines of the Historic Resources Commission for local historic landmarks, and so um one option that the architect did put forward was the idea of doing some upfits to provide for a catering kitchen or warming kitchen in the space.

Uh we are seeing a lot of increasing interest in utilizing that third level for uh community events, whether it would be fundraisers for local nonprofits or even you know wedding receptions, and so uh our our recommendation would be that we really be even more intentional about marketing that level as a meeting space, as an event space, uh even potentially developing the logo and but uh but a true marketing plan for to really get the the word out that that space is available for organizations or individuals to host uh their events.

So uh that that is the update that we wanted to share this afternoon.

I'll be happy to answer any questions.

Councilmember Scipio.

Mr.

Rao, I've been involved with the journey towards a restaurant and union station since I got on this council in 2018.

Um how much money have we spent in trying to evaluate that space for a restaurant?

F off the top of your head.

I'd I'd have to research that.

Take a guess.

Well, in terms of, I mean, the uh I think the fee that we paid the architect to render an opinion was, I think less than $5,000.

Um we have had, we have retained architects over the years to look at potential designs for that space for a full service restaurant.

So we have we have done that, engaged a couple of architects to do that, but I'd have to go research what fees we pay them to to prepare those those potential designs.

I know we've been dealing with this for a while.

Um the past and the present.

Um you know the past, there was a restaurant in Union Station in the original building, and we never have investigated putting one back where it was after the renovation, but there was one on that top floor and between the two waiting rooms, uh, the colored and the white waiting rooms.

Um then there was this big allocation and a contract to do Elizabeth Pizza in there.

Um it didn't seem to have any roadblocks at that time.

Um, and they were going to move forward until I got on council and didn't agree with the contract.

Um so since that time we haven't been able to move forward.

We did have someone in the 2000 2020 who was very interested in doing a restaurant.

We were moving forward pretty much on that until he um died from COVID.

Um, and we've had a couple of other interests there, and I thought we were looking at ways to have a restaurant there.

Um, and we've spent time thinking about it.

I am to say the least, I'm very disappointed that we are not trying to find a way to have a real use of Union Station that our community can enjoy, even if it was nothing more than a coffee shop.

We don't have a place, a decent restaurant on that side of town.

Union station had the potential to be that.

Um I just get disappointed because it seems like we're able to do things in other parts of this city regardless of the money, and then we can't get it done on the East Ward.

Um to say the least, I'm very upset and frustrated on how we treat the East Ward.

Um, disappointed.

I know that you have to be careful in what we put in that space because of historic preservation, and I love that building.

I love it, and we would definitely wouldn't want to damage it.

Um, but I just um have I I read that letter and I said, you know, I'm really disappointed.

I'm so disappointed.

I'm so disappointed.

I inherited that project.

Um I'm really disappointed because it's been five years investigating a restaurant to be here in the state, oh, we don't recommend it.

Um I got on council again in 2018.

We were working on another project, and I looked at my files and I have the plan dated 2012 for MLK Streetscape.

It still isn't done 2012.

So I'm just concerned about what happens on Martin Luther King Jr.

Drive in the East Ward when it comes to projects.

Um I like for us to continue discussions, but to say the least, I'm quite uh upset that we aren't working to bring something wonderful to the East Ward, and we have to wait and wait and wait and wait and wait.

It took almost four years while Salem Parkway was being constructed that Fifth Street, Fourth Street, Third Street had to deal with a lot of potholes.

It doesn't matter what division it is in this city.

It seems we get short changed all the time.

Um I can't say anything more because I'm getting a little more upset.

So I just want you to know that we'll be happy to work again with trying to get something wonderful for Union Station.

Mayor Pro Tim.

Thank you.

The point of all of this is when this project started, when Councilmember Taylor, Councilmember Burke, Mayor Pro Temp Burke, myself, Councilmember Montgomery ventured into this, we were very humbled and grateful that the rest of the council basically went with us to redo the train station.

I know there was some heartburn over the amount that it costs, but we also know that this is part of the history of the city of Western Salem.

It is part of the African American uh part of Winston Salem.

But it has not been without its challenges.

And uh yes, Councilmember Scipio, I empathize with you being upset and hurt.

But uh we started down this path probably 10, 15 years ago.

And to say the least, I think the only thing we wanted the four of us was we wanted at least for the community to be able to engage with the train station.

And that might have meant a restaurant.

That might have meant pop-up uh kiosk for small businesses in the area, whether it was a coffee kiosk or a sub kiosk, you know, we we just wanted something that would bring people there.

I think me, and I'm just speaking for me, uh we got in the way.

You know, so we are what we are right now.

We had restaurants, a couple of them that wanted to do things, but let's be real.

Sometimes the council can get in its own way, just like housing and everything else.

All I'm saying is whatever we can do to again allow the community to be a part of it, whether it's a woman's station, whether it's a shared commercial kitchen for my pop-up food trucks, you know, as long as it's something there for them, I'm good with this.

And I also know that moving employees out of the city yard, you know, to to moving them to the station, is a good thing.

Because what good is having all of these facilities if we can't multitask and figure out how to make the uh work spaces for our employees better.

Because if I worked in some of them spaces, I don't know whether I'd still be working for the city.

So that's my two cents.

Thank you.

Councilmember Hall.

Thank you, Councilmember Joyner.

This question is for I believe ACM Rao, I feel like it was you, ACM Raoul, could have been somebody else, could have been ACM King, who knows.

Um I feel like at one time there was about, and I'm spilling out this number, maybe $800,000 worth of repairs.

At least that was identified if they weren't actually done to upfit space in this particular building for some sort of commercial use for a restaurant because at the time it was like, well, you can do this, but you have to, there's some significant upgrades.

So that's been years ago.

So I'm dating myself a little bit, but I wanted to know whether or not those upgrades were done.

Did that I know it was discussion about it, but what were they actually funds that actually were expended for that?

So when we uh had you know one architectural firm look at that, you know, give us a design for an upfit for a restaurant.

I mean, at that time I think the cost was estimated around that $800,000, maybe closer to a million dollars.

And uh there was no funding identified to move forward with that.

Okay, so it wasn't done.

That that wasn't okay, because basically my thing was with good grief had we spent that much money on upfitting that space for that particular purpose.

That's something that we may want to weigh.

But I had to ask that, and I figured you would you would know that and you will remember that.

Um yeah, so I know that and I know that there have been several people in community who have asked about um restaurant space, and I think just in general, being concerned with what does happen with that building.

Um, I don't know who I'm talking about.

I guess I'm talking to everybody, all staff people in the audience and uh colleagues, but I do know that um folks in community have been concerned about just in general what can be used and done with the space.

I think if there is an opportunity to engage folks in community with decisions that are made with that space, I think that's good.

Um I also recognize the need based off of the facilities tour to be able to move staff into appropriate places into um building space that we do have available, but knowing particular that being able to have a restaurant in the event that that can be done suitably, right?

Because we don't just want to stick something in there, but to make sure that it can be done suitably would be important.

But to make sure that it can be done suitably would be important.

I do appreciate the time that went into this and being able to provide some sort of assessment.

But my main question was answered about whether or not those funds were expended so that I could weigh that out personally with where I would fit on this.

But the other thing just in general of just knowing what community's voice is and and what they would want to see in this council member hall.

Anyone else thank you.

Item four update on development of amendments to the city noise ordinance.

ECM Rao.

Yes ma'am so uh this this is an information item only but back in September uh council approved uh the lease of about one acre of land uh to the ownership group for the uh proposed downtown amphitheater to provide back of the house support uh for that facility during uh early discussions between staff and the and members of the ownership group there was concerns raised there were concerns raised about the city's current noise ordinance and that uh it was too subjective that basically it it left the decision about whether something violated the ordinance at the discretion of whether it would be a law enforcement officer or a magistrate and so the ownership group was requesting that the city consider developing more objective standards to be able to measure sound that would be produced by the uh by the amphitheater uh to ensure that they could actually hold concerts uh at the at the at the at the facility and so uh staff has been looking uh at other cities ordinances we started out by looking at Raleigh and Charlotte because both of those cities have downtown amphitheaters but there in our discussions about uh what kind of amendments we would need to make to the noise ordinance you know we we knew that we were having issues with noise in other parts of the city uh and so the discussion started to focus on well what can we what kind of amendments do we need to really look at to have a uh a a more comprehensive noise ordinance and so um you know discussions are continuing with uh with the ownership group uh that that they have you know presented to us you know some possible standards that we could look at you know what we are what we're trying to achieve with with these amendments is one to establish subjective standards so in other words decibel level thresholds for uh for when performances are taking place at that facility but perhaps even at other facilities throughout the city a compliance area so what distance from the source of the sound would we measure to ensure compliance and then which times of the day and days of the week would we have these various decimal thresholds and then looking at the ordinances in other cities in North Carolina and we've looked at Asheville and uh Durham and Greensboro, Raleigh and and Wilmington uh they all have some kind of objective standard so they've moved away from that kind of reasonable person standard where it's just kind of what what seemed to make sense.

So as we are working on uh amendments there are certain goals that we are going to be looking to uh achieve you know through the new ordinance I just wanted to kind of outline those very quickly standardize the hours and the sound levels make definitions easier to understand because words do matter the particular language that we use in this ordinance clarify the rules for when and how a citation may be issued uh update prohibitions and exceptions one thing that we've looked we've learned is that in some of the a couple of the cities they exempt outdoor venues and stadiums and arenas from the from the standards however those venues still have to go through a permitting process in order to for it to be approved for them to exceed those standards.

So that's a whole different regulatory kind of process that we are I think going to examine exactly what what does that what does that mean what would that look like here and then along with that considering a permitting process then clarify the owner and occupant responsibility and then finally uh in conjunction with a well just in conjunction with enforcement you know would we be looking at adding language establishing an appeal process.

We do plan to reach out to the residential communities that are adjacent to the amphitheater to make sure that we share with them what's being considered uh so that we can get you know input from them and inform them about that process.

Be happy to answer any questions.

Real quick.

Mr.

Raoult, we need to have this thing ready when the amphitheater is finished, which is soon.

That's correct.

I mean, there is a a uh a time frame that they are looking to break ground and and start construction, and my understanding is that that there's a need for those thresholds and those specific standards to be in place for them to complete design of the amphitheater.

So staff we are going to work you know closely on trying to develop what those amendments need to be, but we're but again we're we're looking to do something that is also more comprehensive uh as opposed to just doing a carve out you know for the amphitheater.

One thing we've discovered in looking at the current our current ordinance is we have a essentially a carve out for the entertainment district, which is uh industry hill area.

And then you know, you're talking just blocks away.

We would if we established standards for the Winston Overlay district, which would include the location of the amphitheater, and we want to make sure well they probably need to be consistent as opposed to having two sets of standards within the downtown area.

And right now, the entertainment district doesn't have specific decibel thresholds, it just simply measures uh compliance, which is the reasonable person standard, 300 feet from the border of the entertainment district.

So we do have some work to do to try to bring forward something that's comprehensive, but we we absolutely understand the uh the time frame that the ownership group is looking at.

Councilmember Hall.

Thank you, Councilmember uh Joyner, and just for uh real quick uh personal privilege, I would like to defer to Mayor Pro Tim Adams who would like to speak, and then if it's okay for me to have comments.

That's fine.

Thank you.

Mayor Pro Tim.

Yes.

Uh Mr.

Rao, uh, since we've now carved out all of these uh places since I've been on the council, uh like you said, we might as well try to fix it so we don't have to do it so often, but just tweak it.

Uh what about the grounds?

You know, it's gonna be a lot of people up there, a lot of bright lights, a lot of music.

You know, I know we have the fair once a year for about a couple of weeks, but how is the ground going to play into this and moving forward?

Any other areas in our city uh that become uh entertainment or tourism uh attractions and locations.

Thank you.

So mayor for Tim Adams, that's an excellent question.

Uh, and that's why we are wanting to take a more comprehensive approach to the noise ordinance, knowing that there will be other parts of the city either that currently produce noise uh or sound, amplified sound, I should say, and those that will be coming online in the next several years.

And we want to make sure that we have an ordinance that uh can be applied, you know, consistently.

And again, I think one of the interesting uh aspects of looking at the other cities ordinances is is how they treat those outdoor venues, and while they may provide that exception to the to the existing standards, those venues still have to go through some kind of a process to be able to get approved to exceed the standards.

And so we we we need to look at, we staff need to look at that more closely as far as how is that administered.

I'll give you one example of the city of Asheville.

I mean, they have an entire division within their development services department.

It's called the Noise Compliance Division, and they have a noise advisory board.

I'm not suggesting that we would come back and say we need another appointed Board of Commission, but but uh there is there is a a structure you know in place to really look you know make to to make sure that uh this particular issue is managed correctly across the community.

Councilmember Hall.

Thank you, Councilmember Joyner.

Um ACM Rao, there are a couple of things that I want to do.

One to acknowledge uh Councilmember Clark's comment about um I know that the amphitheater is coming soon, but I appreciate the comment about this being more of a comprehensive view of the way that we would do things and actually appreciate Mayor Pro Tim Adams' comment about the grounds.

I think that there's a way that we can consider what's in front of us and then still make sure that we do it with a sensitivity to the folks that will be affected by this, and particularly adjacent communities and just the community of Winston Salem as a whole.

One quick thing, if uh had you all also consider high point to, I know you mentioned Greensboro is one of the um other municipalities that you looked at, but I know that High Point has some outdoor like music festivals that they do often, so if not, that might be um uh a quick thing to kind of look at.

The other thing too, uh particularly around the permitting process.

I think that I don't know, I guess someone else can speak to this staff can speak to this, but the uh permitting process just for someone wanting to do a special event, like if I wanted to do a special event in my neighborhood, and I want to have a DJ or something like that, then I will also have to get a um sound amplification uh permit, and I think that may go to PD or somewhere else, I'm not sure, to kind of get looked at um and and through the appropriate routing process, and then I think I have to like notify my neighbors, those sorts of things that I'm having this event going on on this day, and I'll have amplified sound.

I just want to make sure, particularly as we're considering that, that um we don't have the everyday citizen that's having to do more than maybe other folks in um uh event vendors that are having larger uh events.

So we want to make sure that the folks in the adjacent communities know when events are happening, um uh what time they're happening, and that they're giving that information ahead of time.

These are things that you know we've talked about with them with folks in the adjacent communities in the same way that others would know about that, and and that we consider that as we're looking at all of these uh recommendations and revisions for the noise ordinance.

Yes, ma'am.

Councilmember Sibia.

Thank you.

Um Mr.

Rao, I think it's really great to re-look at the sound uh ordinance because it does impact so much of our community.

Um and I think we have to look at it also with the lens of what we've allowed in the past.

Um, and how do we address some of the things that we really uh want to have here but have great noise?

The NASCAR and the races at Bowman Gray.

They've been there for over 70 some years.

Uh so whatever we do need to uh be looked at with the lens of how would it impact that.

Uh one of the things that we also um experienced was during COVID, many churches started having outside services that were amplified.

Uh not that we want to have COVID again, but we certainly need to embrace how do we treat those kinds of special events also.

Um, because I heard quite a few church services at my house, and they weren't really close to me.

Um, and I also heard um up at uh Grove Stadium when Paul McCartney came.

Um I was on my front porch, which is way off on New Walker Town Road, um, and I heard the concert because they came with really great sound systems.

Um, so I think it it it is it behooves us to really look at all those possibilities because we certainly don't want to discourage people from coming to our cities and bringing us um wonderful experiences we traditionally don't have.

Um, but at the same time, we don't want to in um develop a nuisance for people either.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Anyone else?

Thank you, Mr.

Rao.

That would conclude the general government.

Thank you, uh, Madam Vest Chairman.

We'll now move to the public works uh committee and Chairman Burke.

Thank you, Mayor.

We have two agenda items.

Uh good afternoon, everyone.

We have two agenda items.

Uh City Clerk, would you read number one, please?

Resolution supporting the replacement of the Fourth Street Bridge over U.S.

52 as a multimodal vehicular bridge.

Thank you.

We have Mr.

Fansler to uh provide an overview.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mayor, Mayor Pro Tem, members of the committee and council, uh well aware of the time, but I do want to talk about a significant project that I think we need to spend a little bit of time talking to.

So as the city clerk pulls up the presentation, I want to just mention HB 0031.

And like all good transportation projects are probably a little more complicated than they need to be.

So this is an NCDOT project that replaces three bridges over US 52 that carry city streets, which is why we're going to spend a little bit of time talking about this project from that perspective.

So if if you allow, what the context of this really and the item before you is really to uh approve a resolution of support for the replacement of the fourth street bridge over US 52 as a multimodal vehicular bridge.

And I'll come back to that resolution.

But that's the the really the the item before you is to approve of resolution supporting four street as a vehicular bridge option, and that you'll get some clarity as we move through this a little bit this afternoon.

Just a quick overview of the project.

So HB 0031 will replace the third, fourth, and fifth street bridge over US 52 that really connect downtown to East Twins.

And all of those bridges include enhancements, okay, large than the pedestrian space.

We're going to have wider sidewalks than currently exist today.

And of course, we're going to be introducing some bicycle infrastructure across there in the vein of multimodal access across 52 and satisfying our planning documents for the connectivity across 52.

Both 3rd and 5th Street will be pro will be replaced as very similar structures.

In other words, they're not going to get much wider or anything outside of the sidewalk widths, but the typical sections will be similar or they're going to reallocate the existing four-lane sections that I'll show in just a moment.

Fourth Street, however, remember that's really the element of significance for this discussion this afternoon, where there were two options presented at the public meeting just about a month ago, where NC DOT, in coordination with in coordination with the city, agreed to propose or to recommend or to really introduce two concepts for the community to weigh in on their opinion about.

So a little bit about what they'll look like.

Satisfies the multimodal allocation.

And so you'll see a two-lane vehicular facility that has a buffer and bicycle lanes, and of course, the wide sidewalk.

So really accommodating the multimodal aspects across 52 there on the third street option.

But again, reallocating the four lanes that are there today into really a uh two-lane with the modal, the modal mix there.

Here though, 4th Street, moving forward onto 4th Street, you see two options.

That big that big kind of qualifier OR.

So obviously these are the two components that were presented at the public meeting, one being the vehicular bridge looks very similar to the third street bridge with the two travel lanes, the buffered bike lanes and the wide sidewalks, right?

Or the independent pedestrian bridge.

Two very different concepts.

But of course, these two options were presented.

I just want to highlight the fact they're they're very different.

They require different uh construction practice and overall project development altogether because of the two nature, the nature of these two options.

Moving on to Fifth Street, this will be a three-lane section again with the wide sidewalk, very similar to what you see today, but we'll establish that three-lane section across the bridge and eight-foot sidewalk.

So these these allocations of of what we call modal mix, you know, bicycle lanes, travel lanes, etc.

Really satisfying and what NCDOT has done a great job communicating with our office about what DOT planning documents are going to want to see and what we feel confident we can support from a planning perspective as we have plans for uh you know improvements across 52 on both third and fifth street, and these typical sections satisfy those requirements.

So we as support of course are supportive of these as shown this afternoon.

Just want to dive just a second a little bit deeper into the benefits of each option, right?

The vehicular bridge option, of course, satisfy or maintains three routes, vehicular routes across 52, as as you can do today.

There's no shifting or rerouting, or obviously, if you close 4th Street for a pedestrian bridge, not allowing vehicle vehicles to cross 52, you're gonna have to reroute the vehicle movements if you're on 4th Street.

Now at 2500 cars a day, that's not significant in the traffic perspective at all.

Uh so the adjacent infrastructure could certainly handle that, but maintaining the vehicle access uh is of course a benefit without having to do any of those off-site improvements or re-writing any of the traffic if you do choose to close four street.

And of course, it satisfies the creative corridors master plan.

And I'll close my remarks by diving a little deeper into that.

So if you'll bear with me, we'll talk a little bit about more about that in just a moment.

Uh the bike head bridge option, of course, has smaller property impacts, right?

The the profile and and and the overall project limits aren't as great with the smaller uh scale structure.

And of course, however, you know, it does close through traffic, and so there are some options about does that you know a benefit to the community to allow the four street properties to have the benefit of less traffic.

And so that is the potential benefit is there uh as well for uh uh bike pet only bridge.

And of course, it does limit any conflicts with vehicles, obviously, because it removes that altogether.

A couple other proposed changes that I think are worth noting, just so we're all kind of table set on this project.

The project does include permanent closures of both early empowerment and metropolitan village metropolitan drive.

Metropolitan Drive currently is not a public street, it has been formally closed and abandoned as private property, but the project will terminate the access to uh Fifth Street there as the profile changes uh because of the clearance of the bridge and everything raises up.

So early empowerment and metropolitan drive, as shown there in red, would be terminated at both ends, fourth and fifth street, to allow for the bridge structures and the current clearance requirements.

The grade would have to change pretty significantly to make those those changes.

One other thing that we want to note for the grade to work and everything to satisfy what the profile needs and to limit the really the footprint of the project, we are going to recommend a proposal to drop the speed limit on on uh third street to 25 miles an hour.

And this allows us from a design perspective to really shorten that bridge span, have a little bit uh more intense crest curve and allow some of that profile to be a little bit more severe.

But of course, with the speed limit reduction, it'll be within our design parameters.

Talk a little bit about the project schedule as we wrap up towards our recommendation.

Of course, right now, you likely aware if you were invited to the public meeting that we did hold a public meeting in the summer, just about a month or two ago uh at United or Metropolitan Uh Missionary Baptist Church, well attended there.

Environmental document due at the end of this year, but notice the construction in 2029.

So we've got a lot of right-of-way work, of course, design utilities that are going to take several year process and construction uh to begin in 2029.

But again, design decisions very critical at this time to make sure that we can make some of those design assumptions as we march forward.

Very critical.

And a project budget of about 10.5 million dollars, of course, funded uh and allocated in the current state transportation improvement program today.

Now, having said all that, thank you for taking that ride with me.

Want to uh to wrap up on where Wednesday and DOT's recommendations are.

And so a couple things to note here, and really you heard me mention that at 2,500 vehicles a day, from a traffic perspective and from a transportation need, right?

I think the case could be made with the adjacent infrastructure that from for access requirements, four streets not needed.

It's not utilized heavily at all today.

Uh and and very even from on the pedestrian count side, really not a heavy uh uh facility in terms of traffic today.

However, we asked the community.

By the chart shown there on the right, it was overwhelmingly supported for vehicular option, right?

And so from a traffic perspective, I think one seven DOT is agnostic.

But from a community perspective, where I think NTDOT did a great job asking a very very plain question, what do you want to see?

And you can see there by the graph that they told us, right?

This was uh the an in-person survey that's shown by the graph, but online where you could also go in, those 15 additional comments received, and it's still at seven to five and a couple other you know kind of undisclosed, it's still preferred the vehicle option.

So all of that to say uh city council is that the preferred community option from everyone that voiced their opinion to us in this comment portal was in support largely for the multimodal option that includes allowing vehicles to cross US 52.

So that's number one.

And the second, um you heard me mention creative corridors.

Well, I spent some time going back and researched the old adopted master plan for creative corridors, where really the one of the main missions was to make sure that we're connecting Winston and East Winston and not minimizing that.

And further, we were specific about where we wanted to see pedestrian bridges called for.

These are both graphics directly from the master plan.

Everything shown in purple there on the graphic to the right were where we had proposed pedestrian bridges.

And you can see if you look at the third, fourth, and fifth street at kind of top right of your screen, you can see those bridges across 52, none of which are purple, indicating that those are, of course, not uh proposed to be pedestrian only bridges for those two reasons, right?

From the the the credit the the creative corridors master plan and then really the um the idea that uh you know we don't really need um I mean the community need or the community interest was for vehiclers vehicles to be included, those two regions is what we felt we could support as a recommendation from Winslam DOT to City Council to proceed as shown on the screen here with the multimodal mix, including vehicles.

So I'll stop there.

That's a lot to digest.

But staff's recommendation, and what we're asking for today is a resolution of support for four street to be a multimodal bridge with vehicle access that well that way we can formalize our support and give NC DOT some directive to march forward with design.

I'll stop, happy to take any questions.

Mr.

Fansler, thank you.

Uh, we do have a question from Count uh Mayor Pro Tim Adams, and then we'll go down the line in that order.

Mayor Pro Tim.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair Burke.

Um, Mr.

Fansler, what what's gonna happen to Earling Parman Drive?

The reason why we fought so hard for that was because when the innovation quarter started to encroach into the East Western community, and again, a lot of our history was displaced or torn down.

Uh Earlene, who has been the late senator, has been a fighter and a soldier for the black community uh for all of her life.

Uh she was also a veteran.

Uh I also would like to know, and this is a question for later, you know, uh the creative corridors and the transportation advisory committee on the enhancements to Martin Luther King Drive, which was somewhat promised with the Salem Parkway construction.

That uh, you know, I'm I'm just sitting here thinking that we've been talking about Martin Luther King Drive enhancements since 09, and now we move it over to the bridges because there's construction and new whatever going on.

Uh could you give me some insight, please, sir?

Thank you.

Uh Mayor Pro Tem, I'll start with Early Emparman.

So the profile and the grade for Third Street will raise, and so that will affect the access uh you know, ability really to connect Early Emparment back to Fifth Street.

However, we are communicating with NCDOT about what we can do in terms of maybe uh a multimodal connection like bicycle or pedestrian access to maintain some formal connection to Fifth Street.

Uh but with just and I would even say this it's less than a couple hundred cars a day.

Uh the traffic perspective, it's not a necessary connection at Early Emparment, but we are working to establish some connection.

It would just likely not be with vehicle access for early emparman.

Uh, and that's dictated by the clearance requirements for the bridge.

A move to Martin Luther King project, that project is still being managed by Winston DOT now, and we're working through some right-of-way procurement and easement requirements to make that corridor ready for the betterments that were committed in that space.

And we're looking to deliver that project next year, uh, or let that project next year as we wrap up that work.

And so one thing I'll mention about that, it is carefully coordinated.

The improvements for that project, uh, of course, the the Indian aesthetic embeddements that will would come from this project will all be carefully coordinated.

Uh so this project's very much moving forward, but I think the challenge here is to make sure that our staff is and working with DOT to have the proper oversight to coordinate where we can.

So uh probably warrants of further discussion, project specifics, and I'm happy to have those offline anytime.

Thank you, because we need to, because the community was promised, and we know how many promises the community has been given, and they weren't followed up.

Again, I'm talking 2009, and with creative corridors coming online, and it seemed like everything that was a part of it outside of the bridges, and we knew what happened.

They tore down some bridges were torn down, and now everybody wants to fix them back up.

I got that.

But again, I think we again, this is where we can get ahead of this, uh, this is the city manager.

That if we don't involve the community to let them know what's going on, and I know you had a the focus groups and all of that, but you know, and I know we never saw focus groups the sizes that we saw when we started talking about Salem Parkway and uh the creative corridors combined when all of this was going on, probably from 09 to probably 15.

So, what I'm asking is that make sure that we let the community know what's coming, uh the earline Parman Drive and all of that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Councilmember Hall.

Thank you, Councilmember Burke.

I do want to um echo the statements of Mayor Pro Tim Adams with um the concern about Earline Parman Drive.

I I totally get it from uh transportation standpoint, but I do have a question, uh Director Fansler.

It seems like the other portion of Erlen Parman Drive is going over by 16th Street.

If I'm going over like let's just say I'm going towards Liberty Street where I would be across from Gilmer Funeral Home, Gilmore Funeral Home, saying Gilmer Light Gilmer, the street, but Gilmore Funeral Home near Liberty Street Market.

I think there is a is a it's a small, it's a short road, but I think that it continues on on that side.

Are you familiar with that?

You may not be.

I know I'm I know you have tons of streets and lanes and roads in your head.

Really testing my geography.

I know, and you it it's okay if you don't, but unless something has changed, it it does actually stretch there, and so there will still be some portion of Earling Parman Drive unless something has happened to that.

And maybe it did, but I'm wondering, no, no, no, it's not.

No, I don't think so.

No.

Well, what in the world am I thinking about?

Okay.

I say all this to say, um, I I do echo Mayor Pro Tim Adams.

I I think what she was trying to get at in trying to make sure that even as we move into the newness of life and all that it brings, that um we recognize the cultural history that sometimes can be lost with that, and try to identify other ways that we can still retain that cultural history, particularly as we're thinking about you know the family, her family still being here and the legacy that she had in Winston, and that that's very important with her name being attached to that drive.

And so if there are opportunities, if there's a process um for just trying to get another portion or maybe a part of the bridge or something, streetscape, whatever that is, named after so that we don't lose that.

I think that's probably something that maybe we will want to hear about in community as well.

So I don't want that to um get off anybody's radar.

And um I think that was it.

Council Member Hall, I appreciate that feedback.

That's the kind of feedback we need as we work with the DOT to develop this project.

Yeah, and I and I think as these things come to light, we'll see what opportunities may exist, and we can be transparent about any opportunities in that space that are culturally significant we need to have included with this project.

It'll be at a cost, which we we understand that, and then we have some policy decisions to make at that point if we choose to proceed.

Thank you.

Councilmember Scipio.

Thank you.

Um Mr.

Pansler, I don't know if my memory was serving me correctly, but it looks like Fifth Street did not have a bike lane.

Fourth Street.

Fourth Street will and third street have a bike lane.

And uh was that intentional because of the the amount of traffic that drives down Fifth Street?

What the main reason is actually true fifth street will be our transit priority corridor, so public transit.

And so outside of a comprehensive project to widen the curb lines outside of the bridge, a major comprehensive project, it just really is prohibitive to allow that infrastructure on fifth street.

So don't think about just the bridge.

Think about what it would take to require outside of the bridge where we have the barriers.

So that's why for that reason we want to retain Fifth Street as the transit priority corridor and have the bicycle options for the third and fourth street bridge.

So people who ride their bikes and catch the bus, which is on Fifth Street.

How do they do that without putting themselves at risk?

Well, uh obviously they they can ride the their bike in any of any of our streets today.

Now there is no dedicated infrastructure, and bicycle counts on our bus aren't nearly as high as we had that conversation right about okay.

Well, do you want to have that allocation of bicycle infrastructure on transit route?

Good planning would say yes, but the stop level data indicates that uh for Fish Street is just not really as supported as we might think.

And comprehensively, our planning efforts for bicycle infrastructure is recommending fourth and third street.

For those reasons, we went this way.

Okay, thanks.

Mr.

Mayor.

Thank you, Mr.

Madam Chairman.

Um Jeff, I know we're our primary function today, uh, look at all of them, but to make uh some recommendation regarding the fourth street uh multimodal thing, and I agree with everybody's comments about Senator Parman.

We've got to make sure we properly continue to recognize her.

But it appears to me, Jeff, that on the fourth street recommendation, we're getting the best of two worlds by the uh recommendation here.

We're getting sidewalk and bike lanes of about uh twelve over twelve feet.

Separated by another five feet before you get to the vehicle lane.

So you've got a very uh safe uh you know good feeling pedestrian bike feeling there and keeping the traffic flow on there.

So Mr.

Mayor, that's a good thing.

And the the citizens who looked at it overwhelmingly voted in favor of it.

So that's correct.

Seems to me that's why you we gotta go.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Good observation.

And uh I do want to recognize uh NTOT uh engineer project manager Connie Connie James for some comments because they may have some better information about early emparman.

And if I could, I'll look at Connie to have a couple of remarks.

Thank you, Connie.

Good afternoon, Mayor Joins.

Um City Council wanted to let you know that Erlen Parman Drive will remain open between third and fourth streets.

So there's it's a two-block section of road now, so only the section between Fourth Street and Fifth Street would be closed.

Um and in addition to that, um, it was mentioned that perhaps a bridge could be named after Ms.

Parman.

And so NC DOT would definitely be open to exploring that option with the city.

Thank you.

Councilmember Andrew Bowen.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Uh Mr.

Fansler, thank you.

Um the buffer zone is the is that uh open air or is there will there be a physical buffer going along that?

Yeah, no vertical separation, but there will be some payment markings that indicate that buffer zone.

So it's called a buffered bike lane, but no horizontal, uh I mean no vertical structure that would actually physically separate them, just a buffer.

Councilmember Clark.

Couple quick questions.

Be sure I understand this.

The challenge with Irving Palmer Lane is you are raising the height of those roads.

That's right.

By how much?

Uh six to eight feet.

Six to eight feet.

So you physically it would take an entrance ramp the length of the road to to come down.

Anyway, who's gonna pay for all this?

So this is a state funded project through a highway bridge program.

So this is the state's paying fine.

I'll shoot a goal.

I appreciate Connie making that distinction because we hurling Parma just closed uh between that fourth and fifth section.

So that's where we have the most profile issue.

I I'll just say one thing.

We have criticized our forefathers for cutting this town in half with the highway.

The last thing we want to do is eliminate one of the bridges that connects it.

Sure.

So I think I heartily endorse 4th Street.

Councilmember Joyner.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Um a few things to note.

Uh I was at that meeting at United Metropolitan, and um there were a lot of folks that did not um go through the process of of writing it down, but it the overwhelming was to keep 4th Street Bridge um vehicular as well.

Um my concern would be the same as my colleague Andrew Bowen, um, the bike lanes, not just on that bridge, but uh throughout the city, we I think we need to do a better job, and I want to note it here, and you'll hear me again.

But we I think we need to do a better job of keeping our bike riders safe and to put some kind of true uh lane um barrier for that and then to keep them clean um with our street sweeping and whatever else we need to do, but we need to do a better job.

If we want to have that as a mode of transportation and not as a mode of ER visits, we need to do a better job as a city.

Um the last thing would be um once the construction starts in 29.

About how long do we think we would be that interrupted?

Um and I am assuming that it would be one bridge at a time.

That's correct.

So of course they're gonna maintain vehicle traffic to the extent possible, so they're not gonna knock all three down at one time.

I will ask NCDOT about how long do we expect project duration to last?

About three different years.

Years.

So the design will dictate that, but it's gonna be a multi-year project.

Thank you.

Oh, yeah, Councilmember Taylor.

No, I'll just say, Mr.

Fanzler, um, I certainly support the multimodal multimodal vehicle bridge.

Um I did have a question about the actual cost, but now that I know that uh NC DOT is paying for it.

Um but just if you could get us that information, the pedestrian bridge versus the multimodal bridge.

I know I think you said about 10.5 for all of the bridges to get out.

That's correct.

Yeah, yeah.

If you allow council member, I'd like to circle back with information once we can consult with them.

Might have to do some estimating, not not refined, but we'll get you what we can.

Thank you.

Councilmember Scipio.

Yeah.

Mr.

Fancler just had one more question.

The raising of the bridges, um, is that also in conjunction with the long-term um renovation of highway 52.

So all of the bridges are going to get raised.

Two things there.

Of course, they will meet the the clearance requirement standard, but we're also going to be making sure that the future widening of 52, as in very early planning stages now, uh, will be accommodated.

In other words, we're going to make the span big enough to accommodate the future 52 project.

So a lot of coordination of efforts there, but it is comprehensive to make sure we don't miss that effort for 52.

Good point.

Thank you.

Okay.

Any other questions?

Councilmember Taylor.

I would say, Madam Chair, I'm not on this committee, but considering this committee of the whole, I'd like to get a motion on the floor, so I'll move for approval of uh this particular item.

Second.

All those in favor, please let us know by saying aye.

Aye.

All opposed?

Thank you.

It passes.

Yes, we needed.

Thank you.

Mr.

Fansler, I guess you'll stay right there.

City Clerk, would you read item number two?

Consideration of items related to the downtown street light procurement and replacement project.

I promise you this will be the last time you hear from me today, so I appreciate your patience.

But the item before you is a resolution to really uh and a project budget ordinance to uh with it to approve an agreement with NC DOT for um the downtown street light street lighting procurement and replacement project.

I'll get it out in just a minute.

Uh just want to take a moment to highlight this project.

So the Winslam DOT applied to the Winstlam Area Transportation Planning Organization for funding through the carbon reduction program.

And essentially, we were awarded an approved funding to replace our downtown infrastructure.

So, what infrastructure you might ask?

Well, I'll show you real quickly.

You may have seen a lot of these downtown.

These are these are not the Duke Energy large 30-foot roadway lighting that you see all over the town, both on wood pole and and metal poles.

What we're talking about this afternoon is a project to replace the decorative scale lighting that's been in place for many many years, and shown on the screen there are the types that you see downtown that have far far exceeded useful life.

And I'll just frankly tell you every time we go hang our Christmas decorations on these things, which you see now deployed now, we always risk which one's going to die that year.

The parts are obsolete.

We have a very hard time to maintain these.

Our contractor that maintains this just for years told us we've got to get out of this business.

So we're really on borrowed time with these, uh, and just really outside of our ability to maintain for any cost-effective reason.

And so we applied to the MPO for funding.

Uh, of course, we were selected.

Uh so our application for $800,000 has a $200,000 local match commitment, and so that's why this item is two part is the approval of the resolution to move forward this project for an NCDOT agreement, but it also is allocating the budget for the capital match requirement at $200,000.

And we've been working with our budget office to make sure that can be properly allocated, and we think so.

Uh, but what are we going to?

Well, I'm glad you asked.

This is what we're talking about there.

Uh this is the approved fixture in the downtown streetscape master plan.

The picture there in the middle of Marshall Park, of course, they were the first ones out of the gate to install those.

So we did the park renovation.

The street lighting component of that, of course, is the very fixture that is approved in the downtown master plan.

So there's no deviation from what's already been approved.

What we're simply asking for is to uh allow uh the city manager and staff to enter an agreement with NCDOT to execute this project and of course established a budget ordinance to fully fund it for a million dollars.

We think we can do that.

Now that's about a little over $8,000 because we think there's about 120 of these lights downtown we're gonna have to replace, and that's about a little over a little less than $8,500, a little more than $8,000, somewhere in that ballpark per unit.

Now that's that's installed and purchased the traffic control, all the the pieces of of making sure they can actually be functioning once we're done.

So uh that a little bit costly, but uh of course satisfies the requirement from the downtown plan, and I'm happy to take any questions.

Okay, Mr.

Mayor.

Thank you, madam chairman.

This really dates me, but uh I just want to point out I was the director of development who did the uh the original lights on there.

In the moment, let's make it up.

And you wouldn't believe how much grief I got for proposing decorative lights that are in the cost album.

So we've got 40 years worth of use out on there, so I think it was a good return on investment.

So thank you, Jeff.

I look forward to seeing the new ones.

Thank you, Mayor.

We have a question from Mayor Pro Tim Adams.

Yes, thank you, Chair Burke.

Um I think this is great again, but I'm sure most of the council members will say, particularly in the east side of town or somehow not so upscale communities that we get emails and calls, Mr.

Fasler, about our lighting, our street lighting.

Yeah, you know, I'm I'm okay with us lighting up downtown, hopefully getting more people down there, spend more money.

But I also would like to see in the future, Chair Burke.

What is the plan to upgrade our community lights uh to help reduce crime uh for better make for safety uh in the near future?

Thank you.

Thank you, Mayor Protein.

We can provide that.

Councilmember Scipio.

Um is it at all are these um lights LED?

Yes, ma'am.

Is there a possibility that they could be solar in some kind of way?

Really with the tree canopy and for example, Fourth Street, where we have a lot of these, there's heavy tree canopy, it would really be a challenge.

Our recommendation at this time would that we would not proceed with that.

But but that would have been an option if we had.

I'll have to go back and check the guidelines for this particular fixture we adopted and see if solar was an option.

I'm just I don't know today.

Okay.

Just from a practical perspective with the tree canopy and buildings, it would it would be really challenging to maintain the light infrastructure we need.

And I have a question for Mr.

King.

Um would this replace the light that we have the issue with at our business on Liberty Street?

I I saw that email come in as we were sitting here.

This is our um, I think you're familiar with that one, Jeff.

I don't know if this extends the boundary of our project extends up to Liberty Street up around the Tucker's tap yard.

That was we can check into that one follow up with you.

It does.

I'm not sure if the clerk could pull up the the boundary map because I think we do we we do include that area.

All the ones on Liberty Street that are malfunctioning is exactly the ones we're talking about that just cannot be maintained.

And and what time, how soon will we be having these lights?

We can get the agreement with NC DOT, we're gonna we're gonna work expeditionally.

So this will be a 2026 project.

Okay, thank you.

One other note too, because on on all the bridges over over Salem Parkway, Jerry Marshall, Liberty Maine, they also will have this exact fixture.

So this is the comprehensive time where we can really update infrastructure and lighting downtown really comprehensively.

So we're really excited.

Councilmember Clark.

What's the lumen aluminum rating, uh lumens rating on the old fixtures and the new ones?

So the old ones I I do not know, and frankly, because they're so bad.

Well, we're looking at 3,000 Kelvin, um a little bit lower because they're so low.

Uh so they're gonna be a little bit warm white, not that really bright intense because they're gonna be window level for a lot of our businesses.

But I'll get you the exact lumens and what I'll send that to you.

I'm just not familiar, I don't remember exactly.

The way we could check with Benjamin Franklin who invented those first ones, see how many candles he puts in them.

We're looking at 3,000 cows, a little bit of the warm light.

Okay, thank you.

I do be sure they're bright enough.

Councilmember to member Taylor.

Mr.

Fansler, good day again.

Uh we're calling this a downtown street light replacement.

But I think we're missing a part of downtown, so I'm wondering, will there be a phase two to this project?

It's what I kind of like to call the filet.

If you're looking at that map, it's kind of the third, fourth, and fifth street area that we just finished talking about with the bridges.

Um I think that there are many times that that particular area of downtown has and continues to be overlooked.

So is there a possibility for phase two?

This is a partial downtown replacement, correct?

Councilmember Taylor, I want to be clear on your question.

So I didn't innovate.

We're trying to capture the decorative lights that we the city own and maintain.

And so if we have missed, and particularly down to if there are areas in this image that we have missed, I'm happy to take a look to make sure because the answer question is no, but if we have missed an element that has city-owned decorative lights, not the Duke owned street lighting, we want to make sure that we haven't missed those.

It doesn't preclude from future decorative elements where we could have a project or fund a project to add to our city-owned decorative light in other streets.

The sole purpose is to replace all currently owned city decorative lights.

We think we've captured that with this map, but if we've missed one, I will certainly circle up.

Yeah, I think you've captured it, so that would not apply because I don't think there are city-owned decorative lights here, but as we look to expand and look at other areas, I know other areas of Liberty Street we just discussed.

I just asked that we consider the filet part of the east side of downtown.

Thank you.

Councilmember Scipio.

So Mr.

Fansler, on your map, that um bottom area there, I think that's innovation quarter.

Yes.

And so all of their lights are not our lights.

They have an agreement.

We have an agreement with Innovation Quarter for maintenance of their infrastructure, particularly around Research Parkway and their trail system, and they are a different fixture that we've permitted for them to maintain.

So they're just not the same element.

Okay, thank you.

Councilmember Andrew Bowen.

Thank you, Chair.

Uh the these LED lights, what is the lifespan of each of each light fixture or the the bulb?

Until the first car runs over it.

Um knock it down.

No, these are 25 plus share fixtures, assuming that the the infrastructure with the power service remains constant.

Councilmember Hall.

What was the timeline for implementation?

If you went over that, I missed it.

Council Member Hall, it'll be it'll be probably Q2 into Q3 of 2026.

Okay.

Thank you.

Spree.

Mr.

Fansler, um, these lights are aesthetically uh appealing.

I I like that.

But I also want to go back to what uh Mayor Pro Tem said.

We have lights all around the city.

I can tell you exactly where many of them are in the Northeast ward that need to be replaced.

Um and uh I think that um Councilmember Taylor mentioned uh city owned decorative lights on Liberty Street that have been out for a while, and maybe even some of the posts need to be replaced.

Maybe we have half standing and the other half gone.

So I just don't want us to forget about other areas because uh lights help uh to make the community, the environment uh feel safe and be safe.

So with that said, um can I get a motion on item two?

So move.

Second.

All in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed?

That passes.

Thank you.

And that concludes our public works agenda.

Mr.

Mayor, I'll turn it back over to you.

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

Thank you, all the chairman and committees who uh made this committee of the whole work very well.

We crammed in four committee meetings into two hours and fifteen minutes.

So it's pretty good.

Good good job.

Call your attention to our special meeting we have next week on the seventeenth at four PM special call meeting and then a regular meeting uh following that.

Uh we entertain a motion to end our committee of the whole.

Motion to adjourn.

Second.

Second by council member hall.

All those in favor adjourning, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, no?

We are adjourned.