And in your toes.

Good evening, everyone.

I'm Alan Jones, Mayor of Winston Salem.

It's my pleasure to welcome you to this December 1st meeting of the Winston Salem City Council and would ask the city clerk to call the roll, please.

Councilmember Joyner.

Present.

Councilmember Clark.

Here.

Councilmember Andrew Bowen.

Here.

Councilmember Scipio.

Mayor Pretem Adams.

Councilmember Taylor.

Present.

Councilmember Hall.

Present.

And Councilmember Burke.

Here.

Councilmember Scipio and is joining us by Zoom.

And I think Council Mayor Pro Tim is not going to join us by Zoom.

So all right.

Thank you very much.

Would you please join the city council meeting in a moment of silence?

Thank you so much.

Will you join the city council meeting in a pledge of allegiance?

Indeed.

Pledge of allegiance to the United States of America.

Which stands?

Indivisible.

Liberty and Justice.

Thank you very much.

Our Sergeant at Arms tonight's Lieutenant Barry Martin.

Thank you for being with us tonight.

And our fire marshal is Micah Budford.

Thank you for being with us as well.

Tonight's meeting is being televised live on TV 13, and it will be replayed Tuesday tomorrow at 9 a.m.

And again Wednesday night at 9 p.m.

Of course, as you know, copies of our agenda as well as videos of previous meetings are always available online on the city's website.

And you just go on there and click on watch meeting online option.

I'd like to recognize our city manager, Mr.

Pate, for his uh update.

Uh thank you, Your Honor.

Uh a few items tonight.

First, uh uh real positive news.

The Federal Transit Authority announced that the city of Winston-Salem was awarded a just a little more than five million dollars to the FTA's FY25 low or no emissions program, which helps support transit agencies in buying and re rehabilitating buses, vans, and building bus maintenance facilities.

This marks the second straight year that uh DOT and WISTA have crafted a successful grant application for bus replacement.

So we're excited about that.

Uh that's ongoing.

Uh a second item on uh related to uh on street parking.

I think it's well known now that we are uh have allowed for free on-street parking in the downtown Winston-Salem areas for the holidays, which started on November 27th.

Uh right after Thanksgiving, and we'll run through January 2nd.

Uh, this applies to on-street spaces, not to city-owned parking decks or surface lots, which uh the city lots maintain a $1 per hour uh rate.

There are many, many private lots out there, so you have to be paying attention to whose lot you're parking in.

If you're parking in the free spots in the on-street parking, we do ask folks to limit their stay to a few hours so that allows free access for these sp parking spaces for as many visitors as possible into our downtown area.

Again, the privately owned and managed private parking lots and parking decks operate according to their own standard rates and terms.

The city will still be diligently enforcing regulations related to loading zones, fire hydrant areas, and parking on the incorrect sides of the curb.

So follow the standard guidelines for parking and uh when you're visiting downtown, and we encourage folks to visit our vibrant local shops and restaurants during the holiday season, and we hope this makes their parking uh experiences a little more convenient during this time frame.

And they can uh contact CityLink 311 if they need more information.

Um as I typically get asked uh we are continuing on our market compensation and benefits study, and we expect to have some information back for council on the fire department portion of that at your committee meetings this month.

Loose leaf collections are currently finishing work in quadrant four.

Uh once crews complete quadrant four, all the crews will move to quadrant three and continue there until it's finished.

That's the area that's that's hasn't been collected one full pass yet.

Depending on weather conditions and equipment availability, we hope to complete that pass by Friday so that everybody will have had one collection uh in front of their homes.

I know council doesn't need to know this, but just as a reminder, the ambassador holiday parade and our tree lighting events are are upcoming this week.

The holiday parade starts at 5 p.m.

at 4th and Poplar Streets.

And the city tree lighting ceremony will be a corporating plaza, which is 231 West First Street, immediately following the parade at approximately 6:30.

We know that's a great time, and a lot of people enjoy starting off the holiday season uh with those uh two events.

So we're looking forward to having everybody come out for those.

We are accepting nominations for the 2026 MLK Junior Young Dreamers Award, um, which are due by December 12th, 2025.

This opportunity to nominate someone that has made a difference for those who may have otherwise been overlooked, ignored, or disadvantaged.

The Winston Salem Human Relations Commission annually awards two people aged 18 to 40 as the part of the Dr.

Martin Luther King Junior Young Dreamers Award.

Specific examples that they've cited for activities that are awarded for include fostering positive race relations, vocalizing or acting against injustice, leading inclusive efforts, embracing those who are perceived as different, and celebrating religious diversity.

Nominations are again on can be found on our website, the City of Winslow Human Relations webpage on our website.

And then as uh one uh recognition tonight, um Beth Hunley is standing by here.

I'll ask her to stand up, uh, has started work uh as the city's assistant to the city manager.

This role she'll be working across the organization on strategic priorities, resident concerns, council communication, and a variety of special projects.

She comes to us from Virginia Beach, where she served as the Deputy Director of the Cultural Affairs Department.

She's also worked for the U.S.

Navy, Virginia Beach City Manager's Office, Old Dominion University, and in Rico County, Virginia, amongst some other ones.

Uh she's also worked with a variety of nonprofits and has also worked as a journalist.

She holds a uh bachelor's degree in communications from Mary Crest College and a master's degree in public administration from Old Dominion University.

So we're excited to have Beth on board.

This is she started just last week, so she's she's just trying to get her feet wet right now and then know what's what's going on.

So with that, we'll stand ready to take any questions.

Any questions for Mr.

Pate tonight?

Thank you.

And uh Beth welcome.

I'm glad that we look forward to working with you there.

All right.

Uh tonight's agenda, as you know, is comprised of two parts the general agenda and the consent agenda.

It's always the practice of this council to take the consent agenda at the first order of business.

Items on this agenda have been unanimously recommended by a committee of the council or are being submitted in an established uh city uh procedure there.

Uh there will be no discussion of the items individually unless the council members so request, uh which time the item will be removed from the consent agenda and considered individually.

Items not removed from the consent agenda will be enacted with one motion.

Council members, are there any items you wish to pull?

If not, I'd entertain a motion.

I move approval of the consent agenda.

Second.

Thank you.

Motion by Councilmember McClara, second by councilmember Hall to approve the consent agenda.

All those in favor of the consent agenda, please say aye.

Aye.

Anyone opposed, no, and council member uh Scipio votes aye.

Thumbs up.

All right, now we'll move to the general agenda, which includes an ordinance uh on a city parks uh code of conduct.

It's a public hearing on an annexation agreement, a public hearing on a UDO text amendment.

There are four zoning public hearings, as well as a public hearing on the Civil Service Board appealed appeals hearing rules, as well as a resolution for sidewalk easements.

When these public hearings are called, persons in the council chamber will be given opportunity to speak.

If there is opposition to a public hearing item, their proponents and opponents will each be given 15 minutes for presentation and three minutes for rebuttal.

If no one wishes to speak, I'll close the public hearing and the city council will consider the item.

May we have item G1, please.

Item G1 ordinance amending Chapter 38 of the City Code relating to miscellaneous offenses and provisions to establish a city parks code of conduct.

Mr.

Rao, would you give us just a quick uh update on this one?

Good evening, Mayor Joins.

Members of City Council.

So last month at the committee of the whole meeting, city staff presented a proposed code of conduct for our city recreation and parks facilities and parks in response to challenges that we were experiencing late in the summer uh with some of our city parks.

Uh that code of conduct really kind of follows a model that we established with the Carolina Classic Fair and that we found was uh effective in encouraging good behavior during the the 10 days of the fair.

And so uh the code of conduct that was presented uh last month kind of follows suit with outlining the types of uh expectations that the city has in terms of good behavior, but also the prohibitive behaviors at city uh facilities, recreation facilities and parks.

So um really just kind of follow it up on that.

Uh we'll talk a little bit about what our implementation plan is uh for this code of conduct if uh the council approves it.

So first off, uh we we have 83 parks, uh probably over 200 signs that would have to be replaced.

So it's going to take some time to do that.

And so the initial approach to enforcement will be to educate uh folks who may be in violation or not meeting the standards established in the code of conduct.

So our police department, our park ranger, our recreation park staff will be educating uh folks who they identify as perhaps not complying with the code of conduct.

And that will continue until we have the signs in place.

Uh in the meantime, we will be looking to install signs uh following the data that we have presented to you all in terms of the number the uh calls for service that we were experiencing at some of our parks.

And so if you recall that list, Marshall Park, uh Washington Park and Gravel Park were at the top of that list.

So we will kind of follow that uh that data in terms of the priorities for installing the new uh code of conduct signage, and once that signage is in place, then uh the police department will proceed in enforcing the code of conduct.

However, uh there are uh ordinances already in place uh where certain activity is uh criminal, and the police department will enforce those particular ordinances uh that are already on the book, so to speak.

So uh so that's kind of the plan.

Our hope is to have some initial signage in place in those parks that I just mentioned, you know, probably uh sometime after the beginning of the new year, and then hopefully have all the signage in place in the late spring before our rental season starts up for our park shelters and those and those facilities.

I'll be happy to answer any questions.

Thank you, Mr.

Raoul.

Any questions from Mr.

Rowell?

All right, thank you.

I'd like to recognize uh Councilmember Hall for a motion if she is ready, please.

Thank you, Mayor Joins.

I move for approval of item G1.

Second.

Second by Councilmember Joiner's discussion.

Councilmember Hall.

Thank you, Mayor Joins.

I'd like to say that I appreciate staff for their um work and their commitment in putting things together also and listening to uh committee members and then also discussion that we had at committee of the whole to make sure that the concerns that we had as council members, but also the concerns that were lifted by residents and other constituents throughout all of the wards were listened to, and we appreciate you all taking that feedback back and then presenting something back to us that was a bit more reflective of what we heard in our respective communities.

Um I've mentioned this to some constituents before, but I think that this is um not necessarily something that is uh um uh into everything or something that's going to um be amazing for everyone.

I think that it is certainly a start um for what we want to see in our parks and being able to get um some new wording in place for this ordinance.

And I would ask for constituents to make sure that they keep that in mind that this is a starting place and a starting point, and hope that everyone does realize that we try to at least um hear the concerns that you presented and be able to present something that is uh a bit more reflective, and that is why I am supporting this tonight.

Thank you, Councilmember.

Councilmember Andre Bullen.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Mr.

Raoult, thank you for what you presented tonight.

Um it's a kind of seeing the progression from October to now it's been a it's been a uh moving to me.

Um very excited to see how this works.

Um a handful of emails that I have received in the past couple months is always looking around Marshall Park and the hours around that.

Um kind of having attraction for downtown, allowing that to be open a little bit past the sunset time.

Um I can understand the other parks, but that was one concern that I had.

Um but just overall appreciate the work that went into this and also a lot of the stuff that we have moving forward with our unhouse population.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Uh Councilmember Hall.

Thank you.

Um Mayor Joins, and to your point, Councilmember Andrew Bowen, I think that this came up in one of the community meetings, ACM RAW that we went to, particularly with Marshall Park, because it's one of those parks that does not necessarily have a gate that can open and close it.

So it's not necessarily one that you can totally close and put a latch on at sunset.

But we I think we did kind of address that, or that did come up in one of the conversations.

So that is something that you can speak to if that's okay, Mayor Joins.

Mr.

Brown, you want to comment on that?

Yes, sir.

So I did fail to note that also part of this action is establishing uh new operating hours, which would run from sunrise to sunset.

I think in terms of you know looking at Marshall Park, I mean it it is a area where people walk through uh in the evenings as they enjoy downtown.

Um I think that it would be treated as such, you know, as opposed to uh you know stopping people who may be just walking through Marshall Park uh to go from one section of downtown to the to the other.

So I think that that's kind of uh what we're looking at.

Okay.

Do we have a motion on the floor?

All those in favor of the motion, please indicate by saying aye.

Aye.

Anyone opposed, no.

That is unanimous.

And Councilmember Recipio voted yes.

Thank you.

All right, item G2.

Item G2, public hearing in consideration of the proposed annexation agreement between the village of Clemens and the City of Winston-Salem, pursuant to NCGS 160A-58.24.

Cool.

Mr.

Murphy, can you give us just a quick uh comment on uh this item, please?

Yes, good evening, Mayor, uh members of council.

This is an item um some years ago, back in um, I believe the the 90s, uh, there were some annexation agreements with all of our respective towns, the village of Clemens uh that have since expired.

The village of Clemens reached out and they were interested in having an annexation agreement uh to just make it clear who can and who cannot annex uh in areas uh along the border.

Um generally speaking, uh most annexations today are done voluntarily, but this does at least set the stage for uh the the folks that live in that area to know if they want to annex who they would go to.

This is not in in any way setting up for uh involuntary annexation because that essentially is not something that can be accomplished under the statutes.

Any questions for Mr.

Murphy?

Okay, thank you, Mr.

Murphy.

This is a public hearing.

Is there anyone in the council chamber who would like to be heard on this uh proposed annexation agreement with the uh town of Clemens?

All right, seeing no one, I'll declare the public hearing closed.

And this typically would come from the public works committee, so I'll enter uh uh call on our chairman of the public works committee, councilmember Burke.

Thank you, Mayor.

I move for approval of item G2.

Second.

Second by Councilmember Taylor.

Any discussion?

If not, all those in favor of the motion, please say aye.

Aye.

Anyone opposed, no.

And Councilmember Scipio votes yes.

Thank you.

Item G three.

Item G three, public hearing in consideration of tax amendment to the unified development ordinances, UDO CC 31 to update references to the city-county comprehensive plan forward 2045.

Mr.

Murphy, this is a little bit of housekeeping here.

If you can comment on that for us, thank you again.

Yes, this is uh UDO CC 31 is essentially a uh a cleanup whenever the council uh adopted uh for 2045 back in the fall of 2024.

In the adopting resolution, we had uh some language that basically said all places where the uh comp plan is referred to as legacy, it shall be known as Ford 2045.

And the reason why we did it like that is because we were waiting on the county to adopt it before we formally brought through a text amendment.

The county adopted for 2045 earlier this fall.

So as a result, we're now bringing through the text amendment that formally changes all references in the UDO uh of legacy legacy 2030.

There's some tweaks with the activity centers and some some of that language that's also part of this, but essentially it's a cleanup.

All those references now would be forward uh forward 2045, our new comp plan by the uh adopted by both the city and the county.

Any questions from Mr.

Murphy?

Thank you, Ms.

Murphy.

This is a public hearing.

Is there anyone in council chairman who would like to be heard on this proposed text amendment for our unified development ordinance?

Seeing no one, I'll declare the public hearing closed.

I believe Councilmember Joyner has a motion.

Thank you, Mayor.

I move for approval of the statement of consistency for approval of this item and UDOCC 31.

Second.

Thank you.

Second about Councilmember Hall.

Any further discussion?

If not, all is in favor of the motion, please indicate the saying aye.

Aye.

Anyone opposed, no, and council member Scipio votes yes.

Thank you very much.

Item G4.

Item G4, public hearing and consideration of zoning petition of Bless AH Inc.

from GBL to GBL.

Property located west of South Stratford Road between Kimwell Drive and Densmore Street, containing approximately 0.67 acres.

Thank you.

Is there anyone in Council Chairman who is opposed to this proposed rezoning?

The proponents are here.

Seeing no opposition, I will recognize Councilmember Andre Bowen for a motion if he's ready.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

May I have a moment before me commission?

Absolutely.

The quick thank you to Mr.

Murphy for the conversations we've had.

This is not the original plan that the people proposed.

And they worked with the county and the city to get it to where they uh could be approved by everybody.

So just appreciate the hard work with staff there.

So with that, I say I move for approval of one, the statement of consistency for the approval of this item.

And two, W-3666.

Motion to a second.

Second.

Second by Councilmember Clark.

Any further discussion if not, all those in favor of the motion, please indicate by saying aye.

Aye.

Anyone opposed, no.

And that's unanimous.

Uh Councilmember Scipio votes yes.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councilmember Andre Bowen.

Item G five.

Item G five, public hearing and consideration of zoning petition of Serenity's properties LLC from RS 7 to RSQL.

Property located at the northwest intersection of East 14th Street and Dela Brook Road, containing approximately 0.82 acres located in the Northeast Ward.

Thank you.

Is there anyone in the uh Council Chair who is opposed to this proposed rezoning?

Seeing no one, I'll declare the public hearing closed.

I would recognize Councilmember Burke.

Thank you again.

I move for the approval of one, the statement of consistency for approval of this item and two W-369.

Is there a second?

Second.

Second by Councilmember Clark.

Any further discussion?

Questions on this item?

Not all is to further the motion, please indicate by saying aye.

Aye.

Anyone opposed, no.

And Councilmember Scipio votes yes.

Motion passes.

Thank you.

Item G6.

Item G6, public hearing in consideration of zoning petition of BMS Investments Properties LLC from GI to RS7.

Property located at the northeast intersection of North Glen Avenue and Haynes Avenue, containing approximately 0.44 acres located in the northeast ward.

Thank you.

Again, uh this is the public hearing.

Is there anyone in the council chamber who is opposed to this rezoning?

Petitioner is here if there's any questions.

Seeing no one, I will declare the public hearing closed.

And again, I'd recognize Councilmember Burke.

Thank you.

I move for approval of one, the statement of consistency for approval of this item and two, W-3670.

Sir Second.

Second.

Second by Councilmember Clark.

Any further discussion?

Questions?

If not, all those in favor of the motion, please indicate by saying aye.

Aye.

Opposed, no.

And that is unanimous with Councilmember Scipio voting.

Thumbs up.

Item G7.

There's been a request for a excusal.

Yes, we have a motion.

I need a I need a motion to excuse Councilmember Taylor from voting on item uh G uh.

That should be G eight according to my Mayor.

Thank you.

I'll move for the recruisal of Councilmember Taylor from W3671.

Second.

Second by Councilmember Hall.

All those in favor of excusing Councilmember Taylor, please say aye.

Aye.

One opposed.

Councilmember Taylor, your excuse from voting on that.

Now we'll go to item G eight.

Item G eight, public hearing and consideration of zoning petition of Goldwater Holding LLC, DBA Eagle Properties from RMS, RM8S to L I L.

Property located at the southwest intersection of Highway 285, U.S.

52 and Arnold Avenue, containing approximately 0.23 acres located in the Southeast Ward.

Thank you.

Again, is there anyone in the Council Chamber who are who is opposed to this proposed rezoning?

Seeing no one, I'll declare the public hearing closed.

And again, I'd recognize Councilmember Joiner.

Thank you, Mayor.

I move for approval of the statement of consistency for the approval of this item and W 3671.

Is there a second?

Second.

Second by Councilmember Hall.

Any further discussion or questions?

If not, all those in favor of the motion, please say aye.

Aye.

Anyone opposed, no.

And that's unanimous for Councilmember Scipio voting yes and Councilmember Taylor excuse.

Thank you very much.

Item G9.

Item G9 public hearing in consideration of the adoption of the Civil Service Board appeal hearing rules.

Thank you.

This is a public hearing.

I'm going to ask our city attorney, uh, French to kind of give us a quick synopsis of uh where at and what we're doing tonight, and then maybe comment on some issues that are related to that.

Oh, thank you, Mayor Joins.

Good evening, Mayor, um, members of the council.

Um, we're here again to talk about our proposed civil service board rules.

Um, before we get into the meat of it, I would ask that you make sure that you refresh your iPads.

I know that the clerk made sure that the most recent um additions of that were added to the iPads.

Um wanted to highlight here at the beginning of this conversation.

Um, you will see before you there should be two resolutions.

Um, one is to adopt the proposed rules as presented by the civil service board, and the other is to adopt the proposed rules with the legal revisions that we went over with you all during our special meeting back in November.

Um, and so tonight we are here for the public hearing portion of this, which is outlined excuse me, in our statute.

Um, it is your job to go through and review the rules as you've done tonight is to hear um from in the public hearing portion of this um if anyone has any um comments in opposition or in favor of um either the rule of the rules that have been presented.

And this just is a author judicial uh committee or organization.

It is, yes, sir.

Um I can get into that a little bit more once I don't know if we're doing the public comment periods where we're having anyone speak um on behalf of either of those two resolutions.

So um I can we can open that up if you'd like to open the public hearing, and I can take the time to do that there or however you would like to do that.

Why don't you go ahead and just comment on that particular phase of the okay?

Happy to do that.

One of the things that I think it's important for us to note at the top of this when we're doing our discussions about this, um, these proposed rules is that the civil service board is a quasi-judicial board.

Um, if you look at the statute, the language in one of the sections in indicates specifically that the board decisions shall contain findings of fact and conclusions and shall be based on competent material and substantial evidence in the record.

Um, and the importance of that is is that the board is limited to what comes before it.

Um there um it is different from this council who may consider in most situations um evidence that comes to them from constituents, evidence that comes to them from outside sources, um, if they are getting feedback from citizens, those types of things, when you are making your decisions, you're making them from a variety of different sources of information that have been gathered.

The board is not allowed to do that.

They must make decisions based on the information that is presented to them at the time that the hearing is being held.

Um, the other piece of this is to ensure that we are aware that this is statutory and case law language that has been incorporated into the statute that is in line with a quasi-judicial body making those determinations, and so we just um wanted to highlight that tonight as we go into any discussions that might need to be held.

The other um piece that I will say is that um based on some feedback that I've gotten from several council members, um, we felt it might be prudent to incorporate that um quasi-judicial language into the proposed rules at some point, um, just to make sure that we are clear what the quasi judicial requirements are and how the board will operate in the appeals process going forward.

Very good.

Thank you.

Uh Council McClark.

Let me just make a comment there before I do, Council members.

We do, we as the council from time to time do have a quasi-judicial issue.

I would say they come up about once a year, although maybe not quite that often.

And when they do, the city attorney is going to read what's just in here that we can't discuss this with anybody.

We have to place our decision solely on the evidence in front of us, and we have to disclose any conflicts of interest, or if we discussed it with anyone prior to that.

And so while these may look new and strange to you, you we will be dealing with from time to time.

Ms.

French, do you know of an example where the council would be in a quasi-judicial city?

Yes, sir.

So you're exactly right.

There are certain times when the city council itself serves as a quad judicial board.

Um that's during the special use permit process.

Um one example is that is when we have to make decisions on cell towers.

That is not to be confused with the zoning process for special use for zoning.

That's a totally different beast, and we can have Mr.

Murphy weigh in on that if you like.

But um there are other um this is an example of a time when this board would be a quasi-judicial board um and operate in that fashion.

And so um, some of the language that we um were going to add was from our presentation that we made to the civil service board during its orientation.

No members shall in any manner discuss any appeal with any parties to the appeal, fellow civil service board members, staff, or other individuals prior to their deliberations, and they shall not persist, shall participate in a vote on any quiet side judicial manner matter in a manner that would violate persons' constitutional rights to an impartial decision because that board is considered the impartial decision maker in those instances.

Thank you.

Yes, sir.

Thank you.

Um jump now into the uh public hearing part of it.

Uh again, the those that are uh speaking in favor of the uh uh civil service board rules as they presented them would have 15 minutes, and then uh those that would be speaking in favor of the staff recommended rules would have 15 minutes.

So on the uh CSB rules side, uh Mr.

Brent Moyer has uh signed up.

If you would please state your name and address for the record.

Yes, sir.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor, members of the council.

Uh a little better.

All right.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor, members of the council.

My name is Brett Moyer.

Uh I live at 411 South Marshall.

Um I'm one of the uh civil service board members, so as you might guess, I'm here to speak in favor of the rules that we adopted and presented to you all.

Um I appreciate the city attorney uh and her office taking the time to go through and revise uh some things.

However, most of them, as you see uh in her proposal in the blue highlight, are honestly more directed at the Civil Service Board itself rather than at a variety of the rules or the recommendations that she she did include.

I do appreciate some of the changes, um, if I'm understanding correctly, um, it does look like highlighted in yellow that we've gone back to the state uh statute on the city attorney's office as uh attorney or counselor for the board.

Am I correct or am I misunderstanding that?

Misunderstanding it.

So uh it's pretty clear to me that in the state law, which you can read verbatim, you all don't need me to read that out loud, it requires, in writing, signed by no fewer than four members of the Civil Service Board, four signatures because of the conflict of interest involving the City Attorney's Office as our attorney or counselor.

So in the absence of four signatures from members of the CSB, uh the City Attorney's Office cannot be.

And the legislature used the language uh of conflict of interest, which I think we would all recognize.

Imagine if you were a city employee who had just been terminated, and you come to your hearing before the CSB, um, and in the rules, certainly the city is the prosecuting attorney effectively.

Imagine if that office was also advising the board.

How would that impact you?

How fairly would you feel you've been treated?

Um is that what we want for our city?

And is it what the state law mandates?

I think that's an important thing uh to think through.

Is that really what we want and who we want to be in treating the employees fairly, making sure that the city is treated fairly, and certainly ultimately the citizens of the city.

So I would urge you certainly to adopt that portion of the CSB rules.

Um there is initially, and hopefully some of you saw what I sent out, but in the initial where we're defining things, which are important, um, this is a bit more of a technical thing.

Um if we do define terms as those in the city handbook, that city handbook can change over time, I'm sure it has, uh Mr.

Mayor, in the years that that you've been here.

And as I understand it, the the city manager's office is in charge of that, along with, I'm sure the human resources uh department.

We may just want to clarify which city handbook definition are we using, because if we're using the present definition, great.

Everyone knows what that is, what it means, and we can use that in our hearings.

But if those definitions can change without the approval of the council, then suddenly we have a brand new definition.

Those definitions can only come from you.

Certainly we can have some input, um, but in the end, the city council is responsible for what those definitions are in the rules of the CSB.

So while it is a bit of a technical point, I think some clarification would be better so that everyone, the city, the employee, members of the CSB know exactly what is going on and what our definitions are and and at any given point in time.

I'm trying to cut down on the paper and using the phone here to get um a few other points that I wanted to run through, but I assure you I won't take all 15 minutes.

Um the the as far as the rules on CSB membership and the removal of someone who is on the board, um, I do appreciate uh the City Attorney's Office adding in, I think some of this may be rules that there are excused absences and so forth for members of the CSB.

Um the rules are very clear on how a member of the CSB can be removed.

Um it spells out that if you were elected by the police employees, you can be removed by the police employees.

Same thing for fire.

Of course, the City Council can remove their CSB appointed member at any given point in time and so forth.

So having specific rules for removal indicates those are the rules for removal.

Um I understand the desire to make this board kind of look more like all of the other boards that the city has, but in fact, to my knowledge anyway, this is the only one created by the legislature.

It is different.

Um it deals with yes, police and fire employees, most of which are either sworn law enforcement or certified firefighters, which I think most of you, I think all of you probably recognize the work they do is extremely different from many others.

That doesn't mean better.

All good hard work done well is honorable and noble work.

But the nature of what they do is very different.

I think that's why there are boards throughout the state that are similar to the board that we have here.

It's why the legislature created a board here for Winston-Salem and again in Greensboro.

So those rules are there, and I would also urge you to consider the calendar.

Much of the calendar is completely out of the control of the board.

We set our meetings, we're going to set our annual schedule.

Okay.

But once an employee has gone through the grievance process, right, or any process provided by the city, if they want to appeal to the board and it's a proper, you know, it's a proper uh properly done, there's a time frame that happens.

We don't have a lot of control.

We can make some changes.

There is a little bit of wiggle room if it needs to be put off.

I am hopeful that we don't have any hearings.

I would love to not have a single one, but we know that's not going to be the case.

There could be a situation just where a member of the CSB is ill, out for some period of time for whatever the reason may be, and we could have paper drop into the city clerk's office for five hearings.

They all have to happen within a prescribed time frame.

So it could be difficult where one member of the CSB, because they're ill or what have you, misses a number of meetings and suddenly they're removed from the board over a calendar they can't really control.

So it is a little bit different in that regard.

Um that's really all I have that I wanted to bring to your attention.

I hope that you all did take the time to read what I did send out.

Um I appreciate the thought and the care that you are putting into this.

We on the board worked hard.

We spent many hours figuring in figuring this out.

We're a representative group from Winston-Salem, some with prior law enforcement experience, EMT, firefighter, business, a leader uh, our chairman, a leader at a local church.

So we come from a lot of different backgrounds, yet on the most substantive rules that the city attorney's office is recommending changes to, those highlighted in yellow, we could certainly check with the clerk's office.

But the vote on our rules were near unanimous.

And so I would urge you to continue to do your due diligence and certainly to enact the rules as recommended to you by the Civil Service Board.

Thank you.

Thank you, Ms.

Morrow.

Is there anyone else on want to be heard on the CSV rules?

All right.

Seeing no one, uh there was no one signed up on the other side.

I might ask the city attorney if she might comment.

Uh if I might Mayor Joyce, thank you very much.

Again, um good evening to the council.

I just wanted to provide a bit of clarity to a few of the statements um that Mr.

Morrier made at the podium.

The first being that he is correct, we have done a lot of work.

It has not just been the board, it has been staff in conjunction with that board.

And we have put in a lot of time going back through and combing through the statute as well as our city ordinances and provisions to ensure compliance.

The key here is to make sure that we are compliant across the board with both our statutory guidance as well as our city ordinances and our city personnel resolution, handbook, all of those things.

Um he is correct that the proposed rules were pretty much um unanimous, but unanimity does not mean statutory compliance.

And that is our job to ensure that we are protecting the city's interests and making sure that we are in guidance in compliance with those guidelines.

The first thing I will highlight is I apologize to Mr.

Morey because he is correct.

I do want to go back and say that one of the provisions that he raised with respect to the city attorney's office representing the board.

Um, again, we have gone through this a couple of times, and we went through this um once when we did the special um meeting, but we wanted to make sure that you understood that the proposed rules with the legal revisions have the representation language that is verbatim from the statute.

It does say that the city attorney shall represent, but there is the provision that they may vote if they desire to find someone else to represent the board.

That is their right.

They do have the authority to do that.

They also have a budget with which to operate in that way.

We have already put that to the side in anticipation.

So I just wanted you to understand that that is already built into the statute, and we went ahead and accepted and adopted that into the proposed revisions so that we were in compliance with the statute as it's currently written.

I want to go back to now the top of some of Mr.

Morris' concerns with respect to the definitions.

Um we did highlight one, two, three, four definitions with respect to that, and I understand that the concern um that and the pushback on that is that there are they're being defined by an employee handbook.

Um the problem we had here was that the statute was silent as to the definitions of these highlighted provisions.

What that means is if there is no definition in the statute, we have to fall back on what our city ordinance provides in terms of guidance and uh defined terms that are most closely aligned with what the statute has.

So, for example, in our city ordinance, Article 3, Section 2-310.29, section three, it says the above listed personnel actions shall be defined and interpreted consistent with the city's personnel resolution and other city council adopted or authorized policies and procedures, the employee handbook, and the administrative policies and procedures issued by the city manager, the police, and fire departments.

So it's it's it's important to recognize here that yes, our employee handbook definitions can change.

If that is the case, we would then come back and ensure that these definitions line up with any changes that were made.

We do that all the time across our ordinances.

Whenever we make changes in one area, we go back and make those changes somewhere else.

And I think it's also important to indicate that we had to make these um term terms consistent across our own internal policies, and we did that by using um the definitions that we have in our employee handbook as listed.

Um, another place that I think that was concerned was about the attendance of the board members.

Yes, we feel that this board is still governed by the ordinance that the city has put in place with respect to attendance of its board members.

There are statutory guidelines about removal, but there still should be an attendance requirement.

Otherwise, why are we serving in this capacity?

There is a 65% um requirement, but that 65% is also offset by the excused three excuse absences that you all put into place earlier this year.

And we felt that in order to provide clarity for that, we can go back and add that language.

So it is it is clear that the board still has members of the board still have the opportunity to miss board meetings, three excuse absences, which also which include illness, funerals, medical-related absences, births or adoptions of children, uh, military service, and professional work related or family activities.

Um, all of our boards and commissions adhere to these same policies.

And I think it is imperative that we make sure that this board also adheres to that.

Um we are happy to include those provisions in the proposed rules so that they can be highlighted and um seen clearly.

Um the other portion is I think concerned about language in the statute with respect to the grievance process and hearing matters uh prior to it coming to the board.

Um I was glad to hear Mr.

Moyer indicate that that he does understand that that is the actual process.

It must go through our internal appeals process before it gets to the civil service board.

Um, and so we want to just make sure and highlight that as well.

And then one final thing I wanted to indicate is in terms of making sure that um we are hearing matters in terms of the re the proper review and that sort of thing.

Um I think it's imperative to in outline too that the ability of the CSB to hear appeals hearings is just one function of the board.

The proposed rules which you are um here to talk about and deliberate over tonight.

Um one of the reasons that we wanted to make sure um that we put in about going back to the city manager's level is that we feel that that is only fair.

It is also in keeping with the quasi-judicial nature of the board.

However, um, again, with respect to feedback that we received since the meeting, um, we recognize that there were concerns about a delay of time of getting back to um take care of the employees' needs.

And so one of the things we thought it might be um imperative to include would be a time frame for the city manager to hear those matters if it's returned back.

And so we said maybe three business days from the time that new evidence is presented that the city manager must review that information and then uh make a determination as to whether the um appeal that is being heard will continue to be upheld or will be overturned.

Um I have um I have I I welcome any questions that you might have on any of these.

I just wanted to highlight a few sections that had been deliberated and it had come to me for question so I could provide clarity on the record.

Um, but again, I feel that at this point we are um at a place where we have done the due diligence to ensure that we have lined up these proposed rules in as much clarity and closeness to the statutory guidance as possible, while also making sure that we are consistent across our internal policies.

Thank you.

Thank you, attorney French.

Um I'm trying to decide here uh we're a little bit of a situation, it's a public hearing and uh city attorney French was uh kind of speaking, clearing out some things there.

Um my inclination is to go back to Mr.

Moore.

You would have three minutes for rebuttal if you'd like to add uh anything back in that, and then we'll we'll come back and uh see see if it's okay.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor, members of the council.

Um on the definitions, I mean, we can go round and round on the definitions, but the moment they're changed in the city handbook, they're changed in the civil service board's rules, which would not have been approved by the city council.

I don't know how that happens.

Right.

Only the council has the authority to change those definitions.

So either we should use different definitions, perhaps those used in labor law in North Carolina, because North Carolina law uh does define suspended and discharge some of the terms.

We could go with the common rules and law that are used all around North Carolina courts.

But if we're gonna use the handbook, we've we've got to define this handbook.

Whenever it was done, right?

And then if it needs to be amended for a variety of reasons, it would go through the standard process with the city manager, then it would come to this board, right?

Because not until this board speaks does it matter.

Um so that's you know, our view on definitions.

Let's either use what's in North Carolina law already, not in the CSB law, but in the law in North Carolina law itself, or let's define the handbook we're using, which iteration of it.

Um I do want to thank uh you know the city attorney and the city manager, uh city manager, I know you're busy, but 72 hours.

Um that's that's a big commitment.

Um what I want to make sure, and I think we would all want to avoid is the ping pong match.

New new information is brought up, it's stopped, it's thrown to the city manager, the clock, he's on the clock, right?

The clock starts ticking, he's got 72 hours.

The employee is unhappy with the decision, comes back to the CSB.

If something new comes up again, we're stopping again 72 hours on the clock.

At what point does the employee does the city deserve resolution?

And that back and forth will not allow for that type of resolution.

As I've said before, we are not like an appellate court.

In an appellate court, they review the file, make sure it complied with the law, then send it if they you know they either uphold it or they'll send it back to a lower court.

The appellate courts do not have rules of evidence.

They are not subpoenaing uh documents or witnesses, they are not compelling witness testimony.

If you go to the North Carolina Court of Appeals, you are not going to hear from a witness in the case.

But in the CSB, you will hear that, or the CSB will hear that, right?

We will hear testimony.

We will review evidence.

That is unique.

That is a hearing.

It is not an appeal.

So, Mr.

Merritt, thank you, uh members of the council.

I thank you for the time.

Thank you, Mr.

Morio.

All right.

Uh uh, go ahead, Miss Madam Attorney.

Just two things.

One, I don't think that is an accurate grasp of how appeals court appellate courts work, but the Civil Service Board is a board of appeal.

It is not a board of first um to hear the matter first.

I think we've clarified that.

The other piece that I wanted to highlight here is with respect to the ping pong and that Mr.

Moria referred to.

There shouldn't really even be that shouldn't even be a a piece that this is not a gotcha moment.

This is not a smoking gun moment, this is not um a situation where some brand new evidence should just pop out of the blue every time we have a review of this matter.

The file and the per and the and is the file.

Again, this goes back to us saying that there should all the evidence and all of the information that this board would be reviewing has already been reviewed.

If it is something that significant that it would require it to be returned to the manager's level, then in my opinion, that should have been introduced in the beginning.

If you had a smoking gun witness, that person should have been at your grievance hearing so that the department and the manager could make up the proper determination from the beginning.

If it is that important, um it it would be crazy to me that someone would find five new pieces of evidence that they didn't have prior to filing a grievance and having it hurt.

I just don't think that that is the case.

I will say again what I've said all along is that our fire police department is doing a phenomenal job of ensuring that things are very tight before they go through the grievance process to get to this level.

And so I find that I I personally believe that it is there are not going to be that many matters that are going to be overturned by the board because of the work that they do at the department level.

So I will say that the other piece I will say is that we did not make up these definitions um out of a vacuum.

We did not Google these definitions for the employee handbook.

These are well thought out and crafted, pull from case law and statutory guidance for those definitions to be in the handbook.

And again, anything that is crafted with respect to the personnel resolution or any ordinance changes, those will follow the appropriate course of action as we always do, to bring it back before the board, and then those matters will be updated accordingly.

Thank you.

Okay, thank you, Ms.

French.

Well, I'm going to close the public hearing.

Um if there are questions that our council has uh regarding this, certainly the city attorney is available for that.

But uh I'd like to make a couple comments.

Go ahead.

Yes, sir, please.

Um Mr.

Moyer, there is another board that does have police officers on it that are elected by their fellow police officers and retirees.

Uh and that's the uh retirement board police retirement, which I sit on.

Uh there is a re attendance requirement.

Uh we make quarterly, but if we do miss a meeting, you you are able to get it.

Excuse and I will tell you based on the definition, the reason you missed it is is the reason is your excuse.

Could be you were on vacation, you were sick, whatever.

I I have not found that to be a uh impediment.

Uh I will say I I think your comment is valid in the sense that there may be some unscheduled meetings, and I I'm going to think about that.

Is maybe it needs to be more than three, but I I I just want to let you understand there are folks that are elected by the police police officers, and if they don't attend the meetings, they're off.

Same thing with me.

Uh the other comment I would make to you as a board member is that you need to build in some downtime.

Don't schedule 12 monthly meetings because you will have conflicts.

I would suggest maybe like we do here, we do not meet in July and we cut out a meeting in December.

Give your board members time that if they do want to go to the beach, they don't have to miss a meeting to do it.

Uh or maybe you pick three or four months.

Uh do what Washington does.

They are at a session every other day.

Uh it seems like.

But anyway, I just recommend that to you.

Uh eight to ten meetings a month.

I have to serve on the bike board.

We meet eight times a year, is more than enough time because those meetings will not be the hearing meetings.

You will schedule those separately.

Uh and that gives everybody time to to do things that so they don't have to.

Um the other comment I would make has to do with these definitions.

Not only did the city attorney use the handbook as her source, to me, it is absolutely imperative that the rules and definitions in our handbook match the rules here.

The analogy I gave the city attorney this morning is you're driving down the road and there's a speed limit sign, this is 35 miles an hour.

And right beside it is another sign that says 45 miles an hour.

What are you supposed to drive?

We cannot have personnel policy manual that's in disagreement with here, because then you're asked, what do we judge the person by?

Uh requirements A or requirements B.

They must be in unison.

Now, your your point also is valid if we were to update them, and I don't know how often we update those type things.

We do need a mechanism in place that they're updated here as well.

But to me, it's absolutely imperative that the two are the same.

Because if not, then you're gonna have a mess when somebody says, and I I also use the analogy of we if one says you gotta wear red pants and one says you got to wear blue pants.

What pants do you wear to the meeting?

And that may sound ridiculous, but if you got a conflict, that's gonna be the problem.

Well, I followed rule A.

Well, but how about we got you?

We got a catch-22, there's a rule B here.

Uh so I would say to the City Attorney, City Manager, we probably need some mechanism to be sure they're in compliance there.

And that's enough for our thank you, Ms.

Clark.

We are not going to vote on this tonight.

This will come back uh to the council uh probably uh January when it comes out the vote.

So thank you all very much.

Did you have a comment, Councilmember Hall?

I did.

I actually was going to try to get us to vote on it.

But um I I I do have some um questions if we're not voting on it in a comment, if that's okay.

Uh you're gonna ask questions tonight.

Well, or uh well, or a a comment based off of what we just heard with um Go ahead Councilmember Clark.

Um I do appreciate the um the I guess clarity that the city attorney gave on the lot of these.

I had a few of the questions that were lined up that you were able to um explain, um attorney French, and but um in I think it is um F5, that was one thing that um don't think that we may have mentioned, but I think that that was F5, and I think that was uh concern about protecting personnel for some matter like that that may come up.

And I wanted to make sure that that was highlighted because that was um a revision so that any other personnel or you know that may come up, whether it is intended or not, that there is some sort of protection that we have in these rules that does that does protect them.

Yes.

Would you like me to address that very quickly, or you just want to make that comment?

No, I just wanted to make sure that that was highlighted.

Thank you, Councilmember Hall.

All right, we'll move now on to item um uh G uh 10, which we need a motion to excuse Councilmember Scipio from voting on on this item.

So moved.

Thank you.

Second.

So council member Taylor moves to uh excuse Councilmember Scipio.

Uh seconded by Councilman Clark.

All those in favor of excusing council member Scipio, please say aye.

Aye.

Anyone opposed, no?

And Councilman Scipio, of course, votes yes.

So we now will go to the item G11.

Item G11 resolution authorizing acquisition of easements by deed or condemnation for the Barbara Jane sidewalk project.

And this would typically come from the public works committee again.

So I would recognize the chairman of the public words committee, Councilmember Burke.

Don't have a I'm sorry.

I move forward the approval of item G 10.

Second.

Second.

In discussion.

Councilmember Hall.

Thank you.

Mayor Joins.

I did have a question for staff about this.

And this was thank you.

I realized this bill.

This was in particular about whether or not folks on Barbara Jane Avenue have received any sort of outreach or letter or how the conversations went with residents on Barbara Jane about the improvements for the easement.

I don't know who can't.

Mr.

King.

Or CM King.

Oh, okay.

The ACM King.

Thank you.

Yep.

So Council Member Hall, the way this would work is typically NCDOT has to approve the appraisal amounts.

They've done that.

The second step is for City Council to approve the amounts contained within the item tonight.

And if that's done, then the next step will be for real estate to start reaching out to the 10 individuals on here to start talking about the amounts approved within.

And if they have questions about those amounts, staff is ready to answer those questions about how those amounts were derived at.

Okay.

So it requires our action tonight, and then the outreach will start with with them.

Okay.

And then I have one other question, Mayor Joins.

Based off of the appraisals that DLT did, I see them here and what we have on our eye pads that was listed in the packet that we had.

Do you know, ACM King, whether or not these appraisals were done off of the recent tax evaluation or maybe a previous one?

Because I wasn't able to find exactly when the appraisal was done.

So I don't know if it was this year off of this year's tax evaluations or not, valuations or not in that area.

I don't know the answer to that question, Councilmember Hall, but typically I would say when these appraisers are looking at these, certainly tax values of consideration, but they're also looking at prior sales of to establish some of those values, just like you do in the appraisal itself.

So I'm glad to reach out and ask our appraiser when that was done.

I can follow up with you on that.

Thank you.

I yield.

All right.

Thank you.

Councilmember Jorner.

Mayor, I I actually have a correction.

It's item G11 that we're voting on.

Okay.

And Councilmember Burke said 10.

Oh, okay.

G 11, yeah.

This there was an update on the numbers there.

Say it again.

You accept that.

I accept that and I move for the approval of item G 11.

All right.

And I second.

Councilmember Jordan seconds.

All right.

All those in favor of the motion, please say aye.

Aye.

When opposed, no.

And that is unanimous.

Thank you so much.

We'll now go to our Mayor Joynes.

On item G eight, the public hearing for the Civil Service Board hearing.

Can we have a motion for the date that it will come back in January for the record?

Somebody want to help me with that date.

January 5th.

No, wait a minute.

You may want to have that come back to your committee of the whole meeting in January.

First, so that you can.

I think the issue is you want to have we need to know what resolution you want put on on the agenda for you to adopt so that would be January the So if it comes back to committee of the whole January 12th.

I'm trying to get to it.

January 12th.

January 12th.

Okay.

I would entertain a motion to refer this item to the committee of the whole for the January 12th meeting.

So moved.

Second.

Second by Councilmember Bowen made no.

I make it second.

Who made the motion?

Oh, Councilmember Jordan made the motion.

Council member Clark seconded.

All in favor of that motion, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, no.

And that's unanimous.

Oh, excuse me.

Councilmember Hall votes no.

All right.

So now we'll go to our public comment period, which is the time that the City Council and I invite citizens to address us on matters that are germane to city government.

And when this public comment period is called, persons within the council chamber will be given three minutes to make presentations to us.

It should be items that are pertinent to city government.

And the city council will likely not respond to issues that are brought up, but may address them at a later time or ask staff to follow up if necessary.

We do ask our speakers to be courteous in their language and presentation, insults, profanity, and use of vogue language or threats of gestures or inappropriate behaviors are certainly discouraged.

Engaging in such conduct may result in a forfeiture of any remaining speaking time, and individuals who continue to engage in such egregious behavior after being told to cease may be instructed to leave the meeting.

Speakers may use certainly other avenues that are available to them to address personnel issues, litigation, and confidential matters.

So we have five individuals signed up.

Again, state your address for the record, please, as you come forward.

Yes, this is Keenan Altick.

My uh address is 413 Granville Drive 27101 Winston-Salem.

I have comments on housing and wastewater treatment for electric generation, but before that I need to address funding because I know that effectively that is what is going to come up.

We have uh problems at with getting funding uh from federal or state level for anything.

We're stuck here with property taxes.

We have problems with not being every time that comes up, we say we're not going to raise uh taxes there.

We in in the State of North Carolina we can't do graduated property taxes.

Um I want to say that this council, along with the county commission, are members of Greater Winston-Salem Incorporated, right?

Which it lobbies on the state legislative agenda in Raleigh.

So that makes what happens in the State Legislature relevant to this council.

I'm sure this council is aware that Greater Winston-Salem Incorporated has supported the phase out of corporate tax in North Carolina.

Earlier this year, Governor Josh Stein was an honored guest at Greater Winston-Salem State of the Economy address at the Benton Convention Center, in which he had he and members of his council all graduated, all congratulated, he and the members of this council all congratulated one another on their shared agenda.

The local Democrats here would have the people believe they are restricted by the State Legislature.

But the fact is you all join in the same agenda as Republicans and have moved to the right of Ronald Reagan in embracing trickle-down entrepreneurs exploiting the value from the work everyone else is hired to do.

Seventy-seven percent of North Carolina opposes corporate tax phase out.

But this council are members of the uh of a the uh chamber that got uh number one was ranked number one in the in the country of Chamber of Commerces.

This is the reason every policy that comes forward in practice is such that affordably affordability cannot be achieved.

Many claim the Peters Creek Initiative housing with Shalom Project is a good example of affordable housing.

It uses the same LITEC policies that have not worked in Raleigh, Charlotte, and on and on.

Rent cap is not assigned proportional to a particular household income, which means the Peters Creek housing will only be capped at $900.

Everyone saying they support housing should be affordable, but they aren't telling you what the policy actually means.

In the consent agenda, there was a housing item making very general statements in support of access to affordable housing, but I still see nothing defining what affordable really means.

Every month.

That's what it amounts to over time.

Thank you very much, sir.

Anne Guthrow, if I pronounce that by it, excuse me for getting your wrong there.

Very close, thank you.

Yeah, I just uh I'm Ann Gotrow, and I live at One Park Vista, downtown Winston-Salem.

Is that better?

Um, yes, thank you, Mayor and Councilmembers for this opportunity to speak.

I know that the noise ordinance issue is um in front of us all.

Uh I do want to say thanks to everyone that was involved in that noise testing at the amphitheater.

That was great.

I especially want to thank our councilwoman Regina Hall for giving us a heads up about that and an opportunity to give you feedback.

So thank you for that.

Um choose to live in downtown Winston-Salem.

We expect a lot of noise and activity, and that's part of the appeal of living downtown.

However, uh for many of us, especially those of us that live along 4th Street and trade, and I'm sure there's other pockets.

Um, the noise levels are often hard to live with.

There are too many instances of bars and vehicles having no regard to the existing ordinances.

Uh this is particularly true of the vehicles that have been specifically modified to create excessive noise.

These are the vehicles that are cruising up and down 4th Street and other areas of downtown, leaving the larger community of business owners, especially restaurants with outdoor seating and residents frustrated.

In fact, I was talking with one restaurant owner today, and I quote, she said, We definitely have sound issues with cruisers for the outdoor seating.

It's so jarring and painful to hear.

Many cities have ordinances that curb this by setting decibel levels for bars and vehicles, and some cities also have a no-cruising zone in their downtowns.

As you focus on amending the downtown noise ordinances, we ask that you include bars with outside speakers as well as excessively loud vehicles and motorcycles.

These intrusive noise levels make the street environment feel more hostile rather than welcoming, undermining efforts to attract people to live, shop, dine, and spend time downtown.

There is technology such as noise cameras and electronic ticketing available that could help enforce new ordinances by capturing data needed to support ticketing and finding violators.

Fourth Street and core downtown areas could be designated as areas to pilot a noise camera program, focusing on locations with the heaviest concentration of loud vehicles and documented complaints.

It would be ideal to have a system in place by spring when people really want to enjoy being outdoors, dining outside, coming to Winston-Salem for conventions and concerts, and enjoying the overall quality of life in the city.

So thank you for your attention.

I appreciate it.

Thank you very much.

Chris Jones.

Good evening, Chris Jones.

I live at 400 West 4th Street on uh right on 4th Street.

Um I first want to say uh this is an incredible city.

And we, having traveled quite a bit in the United States, even abroad.

I think anybody who would visit downtown Winston-Salem would look at the architecture and the environment and the cohesiveness of it, the density, and they would say, wow, this is an exceptional.

And I think Winston-Salem is in a position as we recruit businesses, we recruit people.

This is a true asset.

It really is.

That atmosphere.

It's becoming unpleasant.

Fourth Street has become the new strip in Winston-Salem, where motorcycles do wheelies down the middle of the road in broad daylight.

Loud music is blasted from automobiles in all hours of the day, but particularly in the evening and into the late hours.

In general, noise ordinances are not adhered to by the local bars.

Doors and windows are left open by these bars.

They blast their music outside into the wee hours of the night for the entire downtown to hear.

It's unpleasant.

There you have a disregard for all of the patrons.

Anybody's quiet enjoyment of our wonderful downtown.

It's for everybody, not just certain people.

Down drunken and disorderly behavior by pedestrians also goes on throughout the evening and night.

It creates an intimidating and disrespectful atmosphere.

Occasionally fights break out, and while rare, we see and hear of gunshots and other violence.

I grew up in Winston-Salem.

I knew what it was like here 30, 40, 50 years ago.

It was dead.

It was amazing.

I moved back here in 1997.

This city has come back.

It came back to life, and it is absolutely wonderful.

We've got Wake Forest that is embracing the city.

There are tremendous other schools in Salem College and Carolina University, all the other ones too.

I don't want to see Winston-Salem State.

But we were drawing them to downtown Winston-Salem.

We have a development going on by the Coliseum.

We can grow with that development at the Coliseum, or we can grow against it.

And if we don't pay attention to what's going to happen, what's happening in downtown Winston-Salem, it's going to suck all that money away from downtown Winston-Salem, and we all lose, and the city loses a great asset.

So I really think it's not just the noise, it's what do we want our downtown to look like.

We were making tremendous progress years past.

Let's let's get back to that.

Thank you.

Carol Hoover.

Good evening, Mayor Joins and members of the City Council.

My name is Carol Hoover, and I live at 515 Archer Road.

I am honored to speak to you tonight on behalf of the Bicycle Pedestrian Active Mobility Advisory Committee.

Our committee is dedicated to advancing Winston-Salem's vision of a more livable and prosperous city.

One where safe and accessible transportation office options improve the quality of life of all residents.

I am here to present our committee's requests for the 2026-27 budget.

These exact requests were submitted last year and closely align with the goals outlined in both the council approved bicycle master plan and the forward 2045 plan.

Given the limited time for comments, I am leaving the full committee recommendations for for you to review, including links to verify the information.

And I will also review our top recommendations now.

First, we asked for increased funding for sidewalk maintenance.

Last year, the set city cut funding by 10 and a half percent to $684,000.

The current budget does not adequately cover the maintenance of over 450 miles of sidewalks in our city.

Wherever residents walk, maintenance issues are visible.

It's even more challenging for those who roll.

My 18-month-old granddaughter was in town and I had to push her off of a curb around a broken up missing sidewalk panel filled with large rocks because the stroller wheels could not cross them.

Second, we request an increase in our city's greenways and parks.

While we recognize a 3.8% increase in the park maintenance budget this past year, the total remains under $3.9 million, which must cover 3,800 acres and 28 mile of parkland and 28 miles of greenways and trails.

This equates to just over a thousand dollars per acre for maintenance.

As grandparents who live who visit local and other North Carolina community parks, we see that our parks maintenance standards are lower than those of other North Carolina communities.

Research indicates that current budget is insufficient to maintain greenway and trails and playground equipment properly.

Bike lane requests continue to grow, yet resurfacing projects are removing existing bike lanes.

While peer cities are expanding their safe bicycling infrastructure.

Maintenance for lighting, vegetation, crosswalk shareos, and other street marking markings is also overdue with many areas showing significant deterioration.

Failing to address these maintenance backlogs puts the city at a risk of pedestrian incidents and comprises resident safety, compromises resident safety.

Our city has remarkable assets that deserve careful stewardship.

Thank you for considering these budget recommendations from our committee.

We look forward to working with you.

Thank you, Ms.

Hoover.

Thank you.

Hannah Albertson, please.

Hi, good evening.

Uh my name is Hannah Albertson, and I live at 521 West First Street.

Um, thank you for the opportunity to speak.

I'm also here to speak on the noise ordinance under development.

Um I'm a downtown Winston-Salem resident for more than half of my life.

I grew up on West 4th Street, and I've lived for the last 12 years uh in the West End, downtown, and now in the Holly Hill neighborhood.

I love Winston-Salem, uh, and I want it to be the best place.

I want it to continue to be a place where I want to live downtown.

Um at Christmas time, my gift to my mother who lives in a condo right on Fourth Street is to spend two weeks with her.

So even though I already live downtown, I move and live with her on 4th Street for two weeks.

And during that time, it's stunning to hear the noise from the automobiles that are playing, you know, loud music, um, the kind of modified cars that have this exhaust um, you know, you hear that at all hours.

Um, there's bars and bar patrons that don't really have any regard for uh the noise that they're creating.

Um, so part of the time that I have spent away from Winston-Salem, I spent in New York City, and there were bars in the neighborhood that said, you know, we live in a neighborhood.

You need to be quiet because like this is a mutual respect zone.

And I would love to see ordinances that care for that sense of community and that sense of mutual respect.

If my mom uh leaves her condo to me, I would love to be living right on 4th Street.

I would love to be living right in the middle of things, but I hope that the community that we have at that time is a community of mutual respect.

So as you consider the contents of the ordinance, please just consider how to find that right balance.

Downtown residents are not party poopers, we're not wet blankets, we're not trying to stifle the fun.

We are the primary patrons of these establishments.

And we also need to sleep and be able to rest and go to work.

Thank you very much for your time and consideration.

Thank you very much.

All right, seeing no one, I will close the public comment period and would entertain a motion to adjourn.

I'll make that motion.

Second about councilwork clerk to adjourn.

All those in favor adjourning, please say aye.

Aye.

Anyone opposed?

We are adjourned.

Councilmember Scipio, those in favor.