I'll call the Bratabar Select Board meeting to order for Thursday, February 5th, 2026.

This is a special meeting.

And John, has this meeting been properly warned?

Yes, it was last Friday.

Great.

Are there any adjustments to the agenda that anyone is aware of?

Very good.

We have minutes to approve.

No, no minutes.

Okay.

I have no remarks.

We have so we're gonna have so much fun that I have nothing to say.

Uh John, do you have no comments either?

Select board members, comments or committee reports?

No, I don't know.

All right, I'll I'll report something.

All right, just because it's fun to do that.

Are we meeting it all next week?

No.

Oh great.

So I want to take this opportunity to remind everyone that on Saturday and Sunday it's the 104th.

Um Harris Hill Ski Jump.

So there's still volunteer slots available.

It's a great community event.

Um I mean, Peter can chime in too because we've had more experience in this, but it's a great event for a town.

On the hill.

I've been moving the Super Bowl because it has.

It'll be over.

It'll be over.

It'll be over, but the Patriots fans out there.

Let's go.

It's the best.

That's the best question we've ever got.

Thank you.

All right.

Thank you, Amanda.

Um are there members of the public who are here to speak about something that is not on tonight's agenda.

Anybody online?

Very good.

Let's begin.

Pardon me?

Oh, can I hand up late?

Uh thank you.

Uh Ken Fay, District 8.

I just like to remind everybody that less than four weeks from now it's voting on May on March on May 3rd, Tuesday.

And I hope everybody votes.

Thank you.

For those of you who may not have heard that, it's May uh March 3rd.

Don't confuse me with the May business.

You come May 3rd, it's gonna be all over.

All right, regular business.

So first we have the second charter petition hearing.

We had the first one last Tuesday evening.

And we have uh Millicent to just cooley to discuss that and Tom Franks to discuss his position.

There are two petitions.

So uh last time we started with uh um the one man one vote petition.

So this time let's start with open town meeting.

Millicent, are you ready?

Please come to the table.

And you need to open the public hearing.

Oh, and I hereby open the public hearing for the charter petition.

Charter petition Australian ballot and charter position two, open town meeting.

Thank you.

Welcome.

Hi everybody.

I have five minutes.

You have five minutes.

And then there's gonna be a rebuttal.

Is that on the box?

This is how it will be.

There'll be each petitioner has five minutes to present, and then there'll be public comment of two minutes in length each, and then you have two minutes to have a closing statement at the end.

Thanks.

So please introduce yourself.

Yeah, I'm Millicent Cooley.

I um this is my husband.

I'm an RTM rep.

I'm on the finance committee, and I live in the north end of Brattleboro.

Anything else?

Where are we using?

You begin any time you want.

Okay.

So this election was first announced with two options, um, RTM and Australian ballot.

When I'm I'm gonna explain why I did this petition in the first place.

When I asked why open town meeting was not planned for a ballot option, I was told um it would be um too confusing.

And I did not agree with that.

Um it's the most widely used and trusted form of town governance in Vermont.

Um I trusted the attorneys to make sure that a ballot with three options would be understandable, and I felt that all the options should be on the ballot for people to say yes or no.

If I had my ideal election scenario, this would be done as ranked choice voting so that everyone has a better likelihood of getting something they can live with, even if it's not their first choice.

But I I still like it very much.

On the other hand, I think open town meeting is great to try.

We should should be open to trying it because it's similar to the RTM structure, and it allows anybody to come and participate fully.

No representation is needed.

I'm strongly opposed to the Australian ballot option.

When I moved here in 2018, I had only ever known ballot voting.

In most places I lived, I never knew who my mayor was.

My impression is that most people in those communities were uninvolved in their local governance and elections.

The first time I attended and watched RTM voting, I was inspired and incredibly impressed to see a variety of people debating, challenging, presenting evidence for their views, being respectful, and voting together on their future the next year.

So I became a rep, which was actually very easy to do.

And I think now why would we give this up?

I think town meeting is terrific.

It's an incredibly vital and expressive use of our democracy, an ongoing lesson in civics, way beyond anything I ever learned in school about civics.

It can be frustrating sometimes, but in my view, in my view, a full day meeting is necessary for good governance and so worth it.

In fact, I think all three options have their strengths.

But I oppose Australian ballot for voting on the budget.

Australian ballot voting will allow more people to cast a vote, though not nearly as many as the one person one slogan suggests.

An Australian ballot vote about our now 27 million dollar budget will be a vote about an incredibly complicated and expensive question that is not informed by the kind of debate and probing and tough questions that come out of town meeting.

And it will only be a yes-no vote without the ability to amend or to make new compromises that we have now.

The outcome of the of going to Australian ballot voting will be to consolidate power with the select board, whose decisions will get less scrutiny, who will get less input from the public, because the most significant means for open debate will be gone.

Comments at select board meetings are limited to two minutes.

Attendance at pre-town informational sessions is consistently weak.

I'm on the finance committee as well.

We're appointed at RTM in order to provide an independent point of view about the budget that is proposed by the select board and to help make it understandable for others.

It's a complicated set of documents and proposals that takes us several months of weekly meetings and side work to understand it well.

The Australian ballot movement has no proposal for how an independent finance committee will function or even whether it will exist at all.

One fan of the Australian ballot proposal has proposed that a future where the finance committee members will be appointed by the select board.

If that were to happen, it would be mean another checks and balances to select to the select board going away.

So why is this happening in the first place?

I understand why some people are frustrated when something went that they badly want to be decided in a certain way gets voted differently.

And there's a certain amount of frustration baked into the process naturally when different kinds of people work together to make big decisions.

A complaint people have complained about too many progressives dominating the conversation at town mix, but people with other views could join and add their own voice to that mix.

So I just think we should work to improve the government we have that has some really wonderful features for our community instead of throwing it out for another one that we imagine will be better.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Now, are there members of the public who wish to comment based upon uh Millicent's presentation?

Is there anyone online?

All right then.

Thank you very much.

Uh Tom, are you prepared?

I these aren't separate meetings.

I don't know if you're going to be able to do that.

No, they're not going to be able to do that.

Oh, the two-minute closing statements are after everybody has presented.

Would you put up the first slide, please?

All right, gentlemen.

I'm sitting down and ready to talk.

Okay.

Is that fair?

Yes, it is.

Is there you're not showing a timer, so I want to get my my timer to only do the things.

Do you do will you do five minutes here, please?

Um gentlemen, introduce yourselves.

Yes.

And are you both going to speak or you want to you're gonna speak after?

But I have a rebuttal.

I just came up.

You get the closing and Tom gets the opening.

Yeah, we we put a strong closer, you know.

Anyway, I'm Randy Bloggers.

This is Tom Franks.

I'm Tom Franks.

I'm a uh representative town meeting member since 200 something uh in district nine.

Please begin.

Thank you.

Thank you for putting up the first slide.

Of all the voting methods under discussion, Australian or secret ballot permits the greatest participation.

All voters can participate.

It also represents the fewest barriers to participation.

The other methods require attendance at a specific time and a specific place for an unspecified duration to be assured of being able to cast your vote.

Next slide, please.

Regardless of town size, voter participation and secret ballot exceeds 20% for all town sizes.

On the other hand, participation in town meeting drops sharply as town size increases, falling to one percent in towns with over 5,000 voters.

That's the category we're in.

Next slide, please.

But it's Burlington's budget is adopted by the city council, which leaves only 13% of towns over 5,000 using town meeting forums.

Next slide, please.

The slide shows the average residential tax burden for towns over 5,000 voters as a portion of median income, and the lower graph is the median income of those towns.

Brattleboro has the highest tax burden, the red bar on the right, and we have the lowest median income.

Once again, the red bar on the right.

Next slide, please.

As this slide shows, the in the last three years, 31 towns of all sizes have adopted Australian ballots.

Next slide.

On this slide, there are the four main barriers that are just apply to everybody.

RTM, you have to be elected, so only RTM members are eligible to vote.

But RTM and OTM have requirements for schedule, location, and duration, as I've already mentioned.

If you have uh any responsibilities for say child care, you can't get off work, and there are a lot of other reasons why you could never participate or could not participate either without sacrifice or at all.

For in the case of first responders and uh medical personnel.

So with early voting and voting by mail available to almost any voter borrowing unforeseen last minute circumstances, can choose to express their opinion and have it count.

Next slide, please.

These are slides that uh these are barriers that may be present for individuals.

Um have a language problem, you it's tough in our in RTM or OTM, but if you're doing an Australian secret ballot, you can have somebody translate and be sure you understand what you're voting for.

Visual, we do have child a lot of material that's hard to handle, and if you don't have the time to read it or get it translated or read to you.

Physical, transportation, personality, the last two personality.

I'm one of those people who's willing to speak up in a crowded room.

We uh we've heard people say that it's important to be able to talk look people in the eye and talk to them.

They're personality types that really cannot handle that.

That's really challenging for them.

And we are disenfranchising them from open town in an open town meeting.

Fear and coercion, Australian ballot was created to prevent this, the fear of public you know voting.

It used to be people would like put a button in a one box or another.

Everybody knew how you voted.

For some, that's a challenge.

Merchants perhaps may not be able to want to vote and publicly.

So those those are a hundred bunch of areas that with uh uh OTM and RTM offer.

Next slide, please.

One of the uh things that we've been hearing about is uh Australian ballot offers fewer opportunities.

Under Australian ballot, all voters, not just you know RTM will have an opportunity to gather information and make their voices heard on any matter before it goes to vote.

Select board meetings, telephone, drop box, warmed informational sessions, special meetings, or reviewing the town report are all open to every member of the voting of the public, and all voters would be able to act on that.

The only difference is that very few are lucky enough to face none of the barriers created by RTM or OTM won't have the opportunity to make amendments at the last moment.

The opportunity to make amendments at the last moment under RTM has a cost cost of disenfranchising over 8,800 voters.

I don't know how many people would choose or not be able to attend OTM because of various barriers.

However, as a point of reference, the maximum number attending uh Vermont open meeting in 2025 was 294 voters.

Wrap it up, Tom.

What?

You're you're you're over your five minutes.

Oh, I'm over my time.

I'm sorry.

May I have another uh 40 seconds in my pleasure?

Yes, you may.

Thank you so much.

I did it in four minutes and thirty at home.

Um I guess I'm a little nervous now.

Um my closing review of multiple academic and scholarly studies of New England town meetings show that authorities are unanimous in agreeing that the rosy view of town meeting is a perfect democracy as a romantic myth.

Town meetings and RTM are too large for effective deliberations.

Five to eight people is the optimal size for an effective deliberative uh decision making.

The larger the town, the smaller the participation.

Town meetings and RTM are dominated by the culture of the attendees with the loudest voices.

This has been true since 1630, since the first town meetings.

Town meetings and representative town meeting have always been dominated by privileged people, powerful and entitled citizens.

This is still true today.

We deserve better.

One person, one vote.

All votes and all voices are equal with Australian ballot.

Thank you for your kindness.

Thank you.

Okay.

Um let's let's hear from the public.

Um great.

It seems to me to make more sense.

Why don't you come to the microphone, Mr.

Moderator?

It would seem to make more sense to have public comment after all four positions are articulated.

So I'm waiting.

Is that an appropriate way to proceed?

Uh no, because we are required to have this um uh meeting for the petitions, the both petitions.

The next presentation about RTM is is not within the petition requirements.

And so that's why we're having this meeting for the two petitions, and then we'll have the other.

If you would like to speak, you may speak now.

You may also speak after the next one.

Dr.

Reichman.

Thank you.

Franz Reichsmann.

Um I live here in Brattleboro.

Um I'm favorably impressed by both of the presentations that we just heard.

There are good reasons to favor a town meeting.

Personally, I like representative town meeting, but open town meeting has its benefits as well.

And there are good reasons to favor an Australian ballot.

I think we don't have to choose.

I think there's a good argument to be made to have both a town meeting and an Australian ballot, and thereby obtain the benefits of both of those approaches.

The benefits of town meeting for me are uh of a very robust discussion.

Uh you know, I've been to a lot of sort of these um ad hoc uh events where we talk about issues and stuff like that.

None of them has the robustness of what happens at town meeting.

And at town meeting, you can make changes.

Now, I mean, let's look back at last year when that crazy select board passed the budget that then got voted down at uh at town meeting.

Okay.

Um, but there was a lot of discussion, there were alternatives proposed, and um, and that was really an excellent part of the process, I believe.

And um and that was really an excellent part of the process, I believe.

On the other hand, the arguments in favor of one person, one vote, everybody gets to say, those are good arguments too.

And I think that this would probably the mechanism here is maybe a little unclear, but I think it should come down to the Charter Revision Commission to propose changes to the town charter that would permit us to have both a town meeting that puts forth proposals and and authorizes actions by the town, but that then those proposals from town meeting are subject to an Australian ballot where everybody gets their say.

I don't see a reason that we have to choose either or.

I think we can do both and and that's what I'm hoping people will come around to.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Andy.

I'm Andy Davis.

I'm a member of RTM and I'm from District 9.

I just wanted to direct my question uh to some of the issues raised by the proponents of Australian ballot.

Um it seems to be it could be interpreted as a general argument against representative forms of government, um, which is kind of baked into the world of the entire world of democracy where there are representative bodies, including the one I'm facing right now, which is a representative body elected by Australian ballot by the people of Brattleboro.

And I don't see an argument tonight against our select board.

Um thing seems to uh so I have a problem with that general drift.

The intimidation I find interesting, Australian ballot is called that because of an incredible amount of intimidation by the massive landowners, mine owners in Australia where someone would literally be banished or for uh kicked out of employment, uh driven off their land because of a public vote.

And I don't think we have anything in Brattleboro that comes close to that.

I know we have three members of the select board that run businesses in our community, and I sure hope you don't feel intimidated over any decision you make in that capacity.

So I don't think that's a fair uh environment to bring up, um, and I don't think it's fair to uh invoke that suffering that took place in the 19th century, not only in Australia but in Canada, um, where people were literally banished for for voting against the interests of the powerful.

Um so I just would like to throw those challenges out to the proponents of the Australian ballot.

Thank you.

Uh Tom or Randy, would you like to address that?

So we're doing question by question or a two-minute rebuttal.

Uh yeah.

You don't want we it can be in the rebuttal.

I wanted to make sure we have you address it right now if you're no, we'll we'll see how many more people have comments.

Anyone else?

No.

No, ma'am.

Um is that okay if I move this forward a bit?

I feel like uh I'm not in charge of the microphone.

So thank you, BC TV.

So one thing it might have been lined up with the camera.

I'm not sure if that's still.

I see me.

Still see you.

Thank you.

Can I have my 15 seconds at the end?

Um, so I do appreciate Andy's point that was brought up.

And I also will say, well, I am definitely in favor of a form of town meeting.

I do respect and appreciate the amount of like clear research and work that the Australian ballot team has put into this.

Obviously, I appreciate that from the open town meeting and representative town meeting too.

Um there are a few things that were interesting to me that stood out, uh, especially the slide about that we have the highest tax burden but lowest medium income here.

I'm not sure how that relates to Australian ballot unless the point is that it's inaccessible to workers.

What's interesting to me is that what Australian ballot points to, when everyone says, well, you will have a point to enter the conversation.

It's all through things that are no more accessible than town meeting.

Select board meetings that can stretch six hours on a weeknight are not accessible.

I'm often here late because of work.

Well, right, it's it's it's all about the the times that we work.

But if you're a parent, it's no easier to come to a select board meeting, especially because town meeting actually has a child care stipend.

Um to me, what it points to a lot of this is that people have lost the sense of good faith when people talk about merchants being concerned about being boycotted because of a public vote.

You know, it's an assumption that if we disagree, myself or someone else would want you to not be able to support yourself and not be able to have a livelihood.

And I actually think that a core argument of the town meeting is that coming together and having an obligation to your community to be in conversation and to represent your viewpoint and to hear other viewpoints is what fosters a sense of interconnectedness of common interest to some extent.

And I think it's really it's a it's a sad way to look if we're assuming that the division we have seen over some issues in town is just like the trajectory that we're headed down.

And frankly, I I think Australian ballot would put it more towards that way.

Um I think that this has seemed to heighten quickly, like mostly on the budget, but I don't actually think the budget's been the most uh controversial topic because most of the time when people are really upset about the budget, it didn't get passed.

You know, we'll see how that goes this year.

The the line items people are upset about is again determined by the select board.

We don't have power of that at town meeting, and you wouldn't an Australian ballot unless the select board was willing to warn a separate article.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Let's take the people in the room.

Yes, sir.

You in the back.

Uh Ryan Larby, I live here in town.

Um, I I just want to say I'm in I am pro a town meeting of some sort.

Uh I think one of the things that I heard brought up when thinking about the barriers to entry of having a structure like that is, you know, uh accessibility to the town, like the the meetings that we have, the timing and everything.

Um, but I think those uh those same barriers for those people that would have those would be ex would exist the same way if the burden or the opus of responsibility was then put on them to do all of the research and find all of the things that uh could be very well presented um and clearly discussed at a meeting with a little bit more of an open forum.

Everybody gets one vote, every vote matters is uh I think uh a I like many of other people have said, appreciate the research that have gone into it.

But um, I think when I think about who is who I want making decisions and who I want leading the charge, I want it to be people that are uh motivated to step up for the community, invest their time and facilitate a conversation where people do get to learn and benefit from um being in community together.

Um thanks for your time.

Thank you.

Um let's move to the uh we'll start with you.

Yeah, Mike Oscillborough.

I'm an RTM rep for District 9.

Um, I'm really a big I've been a fan and participant in politics.

Um, and have been involved in local and state politics since I was in elementary school.

Um, because one of my parents was Democratic and one of my parents was Republican.

And so every local election, we took the insert in the paper that described all the candidates, um, laid them out on the dining room table and went around the table and talked about each candidate.

And um all of us crossed party lines often and sometimes um, you know, the conversation was the best part of that family night.

Um when I moved to Vermont and read up on civic participation, reading about town meeting day was one of the most exciting things because it combined my two favorite topics community and politics.

Um, town meeting day in Vermont is a state holiday.

And originally every town in Vermont had a uh town meeting day on that day.

And um, and and many employers gave people the day off.

I know it's morphed and changed, um, but I'm going into my seventh year as an RTM rep.

Hearing other people's questions and opinions in such a civil way um just makes my heart sing.

Even when I'm upset with someone's opinion or even when things don't go my way, um that day is such a wonderful example of community and community dialogue.

I've changed my opinion in town meeting day.

I've gone in thinking I'm gonna vote another way.

And I think five or six times that I can think of, maybe more, I have changed my vote due to the discussion that was on the on the floor.

Um and I just wanted to say another thing about um like secrecy and stuff.

I've never seen anybody get that I know of get blowback for their votes because standing and sitting isn't like a roll call where you have to say your name and your vote.

Um, you're just standing and sitting.

Maybe the people next to you know what you voted, but and and maybe some people around, but it's not um doesn't seem to be pressure.

And one of the things that I wanted to point out is that this past year was one of the first times where two votes, somebody asked for a roll call vote where you call out your name and then call up and then have to say what you vote.

That person is the person behind the secret ballot saying um that people might get blowback from it.

So I uh it seems to be a little bit of a deck dichotomy there that I I'm not sure I understand um the point of, but really having the say where you see people who are in a opposing positions to you has been statute lending experience, everyone seems to be open to asking if I go for coffee.

Sorry.

And anyway, it's great to talk to other people.

Thank you.

Who's next?

Uh the individual on the iPad.

Can you hear me?

Hello.

My name is Ken, okay.

My name is Ken or Kenneth Gutwine, and I'm a member of District 7 here in Bradlebar.

In reference to this issue of vis-a-v town meeting versus open vote, it's a very complex one.

The first speaker mentioned that well, what's wrong with having it combined?

And I don't see any issue with that either.

However, the uh situation as we have it now lends to secrecy by the executive board in reference to issues that are brought up to it, because there is a board executive board meeting first before there is a select board meeting open to the public.

So we need to keep this as a democra democratic town where everything is open to the public.

Every issue can be publicly not only voted on, but discussed.

Now, if we can maintain the uh representative town meeting system, that would be a good thing in my opinion.

As long as we have one and one vote that is the democratic way, so-called Australian ballot, where no one's looking over your shoulder and determining how you voted.

But the one thing that we cannot have is last minute referendums that have nothing to do with Brattleboro.

When I moved here, I was shocked for the first time by the vote that allowed a referendum on Israel to be submitted to the general public as a as a state that practices apartheid.

What for God's sakes does that have to do with Brattleboro and how did it get on the ballot?

This is something that we have to deal with.

We have to be able to stop issues that have no reference to Brattleboro, have no reference to its citizens or its uh personnel to be placed on the ballot in voting in actual voting.

I would certainly recommend that we maintain the uh representative town meeting, which can do that, which can say no to a last-minute addendum to the ballot, at the same time, keep it as an open vote so the voter can participate and say no as well, as was done in the last election.

All right, thank you very much.

There's last name for this.

Surely my name is spelled G as engulf U T W E I N as in November.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Let me just ask um Hannah, would you like to discuss the fact that that petition had a certain amount of the population and the the select board had no control over placing it on the ballot?

The uh ability to place a non-binding referendum on the ballot is um created by our charter, and uh that is not a topic of either of these petitions.

But in the charter, it's it's required to be by Australian ballot.

Great, David.

I'm David Gardenstein, I'm the moderator of town meeting.

That ballot item was non-binding other business.

So that was just moved on the floor um as uh a non-binding article.

There's also a petition signed by a certain percentage of the voters that elect that required the select board to place that on the on the ballot on election day.

So there were two different actually types of non-binding petitions.

And we are required by law to place that on the ballot.

Uh Beth.

Unmute.

Hi, thanks a lot.

Um so I just very quickly, I am in I mean, I'm a town meeting rep, that's not really the point.

The point is I I think that discussion is really valuable.

I think that having an understanding of people from different points of view is really important, especially in this day and age.

I appreciate what Mart had to say about changing votes.

I have changed my mind.

I know some people walk into town meeting and just know what they're gonna do, and that's where they sit.

But that's okay.

My question is and this kind of goes back to to Franz.

Is it possible to do a combo to do to do a meeting, not just an informational meeting that's run by the the select board necessarily, but a moderated meeting and have an Australian ballot that addresses the budget, and if that is possible, what does that mean?

How how would one go about making that happen this year?

I think uh would ask you.

Anna, would you like to address that question?

Well, to start, there's no way that can happen for this year.

The the meeting has already been warned.

Um any vote uh well, right now these are both charter petitions, so they would have to go to the legislature and be um ratified.

There is a mechanism to vote at a town meeting to vote by Australian ballot, but you cannot vote by Australian ballot at the same meeting that you vote to vote by Australian ballot.

It's a lot of repetitions, I hope that made sense.

But um I I don't see any reason why you technically could not have both, but I think logistically the the timing, like you would probably I mean uh the town clerk's probably in a better position to address that, but thank you.

I I think I think the question, Hannah, might be um if if the town meeting could uh could determine a number for a budget to be placed on a subsequent Australian ballot.

Yes, that would have to be uh whether or not that could be done by a vote or would need to be done by a charter amendment.

I would need to research a little bit further, but uh that that could theoretically be an option.

The logistics of that might be more complicated.

Okay.

Complicated the name of the game here.

Randy's a point since we do.

Come to the mic.

Hi, Randy Black.

Just a point um that I think would be good for everybody involved.

We have people here from charter review, we that could answer some questions.

This question everybody's bringing up is fundamentally why we got our petition.

We were for open town meeting modified, and then that was changed, and that forced us to go and get our petition because what we wanted and we thought was happening was it was going to be a town meeting.

We compromised with people, we talked, we went to meetings, and we came to that conclusion, but we wanted everything at another date away from that open town meeting voted by Australian ballot, and that's how we got where we are today.

And I think there's enough people here that know how that worked, how that happened, that that's a valid point for this hearing.

Thank you.

Robin, sorry, can I yes, please?

I'm here and speaking in my capacity as the town attorney.

Thank you.

But there are other people here.

Excuse me.

Okay, let's hear from Robin.

Hi, thanks.

I just want to um I just want to share my perspective on why um I think that the goal I share with the one to one town one vote thing, those people's goal of a more inclusive democratic process, but I actually don't feel like that one day going in the booth and voting is it.

So the right now our structure is that the select board is beholden to the voters, right?

To be able to approve the the ballot in some form, whether it's going to be any of these three forms of meeting.

And so what gives the the voters the greatest voice is actually some form of a town meeting.

If we have Australian ballot, then it's extremely limiting to what voters can give in terms of feedback or even in terms of actions that we can take.

So if you are trying to vote by Australian ballot and you see uh a budget where you're like, I like what they did, but I wish that it had more money going to such and such department, you can't ask for that.

If you see something and you're like, this budget is too high, and I want them to cut it from Y department, you can't do that either.

Even th there's just no power except to just or that's all you can do.

When you have uh open town meeting, voters can take actions to say please increase the budget by this amount, or you know, please don't approve this other article, but we want to vote on the budget, yes or no.

And even if the budget is voted down completely, an Australian ballot vote gives the select board absolutely no feedback as to why people voted it down.

I think that representative town meeting is actually the most inclusive version, even though it has fewer people voting, because a lot of people might feel like they they want to have their perspective represented, but they aren't able to or don't want to go to the whole long meeting.

So uh being able to choose representatives to vote at the meeting is a way that everybody can get their voice heard.

Thank you.

Bob, do you want to weigh in on on the any of these questions?

Sure.

I I just wanted to answer John's question.

Um, because the question was, can you have a uh a meeting where people are present and debating and then still have Australian ballot?

I think Hannah's correct that for purposes of this year, that's not going to be uh possible in how uh it's warned, plus these are uh petitioned charter changes, so that has to follow the uh the legislative uh path.

But just to point out, and I'm not saying this, I'm not for or against, but many towns, if they go to Australian ballot, uh start their town meetings like the night before or sometimes the Saturday before have debate, but then for like the towns that do the meeting on a Monday night, they then vote on the first Tuesday uh in March by Australian ballot.

So I just wanted to answer that, that is done in other towns.

I'm not saying that's that's right or wrong.

But you to further answer John's question, you wouldn't be able at the debate uh forum like the night before change the budget item for Australian ballot.

If it's Australian ballot, you've got a number that is going to be voted up or down.

So I just wanted to clarify.

Thank you.

Um, but Bob, uh, while we have you, uh would it be possible say we haven't if it becomes an open town meeting, we have not warned that yet.

Um yeah, that would have to be warned after the election.

Um if would it be possible to put an article on the ballot to uh to approve the budget that at the number that it's been uh it's been um developed by the select board, but have the town meeting um confirm that number for a subsequent ballot 30 days out to vote it through Australian ballot.

I don't think so.

Um because if you're going to have an open town meeting and a budget article, you're gonna vote on that as a warned article, and that would be binding.

Um so essentially, especially for this year, that's that's not an option.

Okay, Hannah, and thank you.

Like I was explaining before, you in order to vote on the budget by Australian ballot, you either need to do it as a charter change, which is what's being done here, or um have a vote to do the future vote by Australian ballot, but you can't do that at the same time.

Correct.

You would have to vote to do that for the following year.

For the following year, of course.

Thank you.

All right, let's get back to uh far.

Who's next or was the list?

Hi there.

Uh farm me's district nine, seven, what am I?

I don't I don't know.

Um used to be three.

Um I I think uh our town attorney may have just kind of answered my question, but I want to clarify um in previous years when we've had those informational sessions, um, there have uh inevitably had to be some sort of admonition not to engage in debates.

Um but I think I just heard our town attorney uh indicate that in situations where there is an Australian ballot that that uh these these sessions can be a venue for debate and may not be debate in the strictly uh sort of parliamentarian sense of it being uh uh deliberative session, but I'm I'm wondering if there would be uh more possibilities to actually engage in that debate um at these informational sessions if we move to an Australian ballot.

Uh thank you.

Um works, yeah.

It's actually by statute that uh public discussion of ballot issues is permitted um at an um at an informational sort of.

Some towns start their meeting early in order to have that public discussion portion before the ballot.

Great.

Thank you.

Um who's next?

Linda.

Linda.

Welcome.

Hello, I'm Linda Bailey, uh, District 9 uh voter, and I'm also have been a representative town meeting rep for quite some years.

Um while I appreciate the idea of uh promoting democracy and and one person one vote, it seems like with our representative town meeting or open meeting, that is um that is truly participatory democracy.

And now in particular is not the time to be abandoning participatory democracy.

Um without the discussion and the community that are involved in having the informational meetings and the discussions that happen at town meeting.

Um, as people have mentioned about going in and having getting receiving information from other people there and having their minds changed.

Um that's possible when you have discussions and when you are meeting together.

And I realize that there are accessibility issues.

There's always going to be accessibility issues with whatever form, and that as has been pointed out, if you um if it's Australian ballot, oh well you can go to the select board meetings or you can go to the information meetings.

That's not always possible.

Um I'm just very much hoping that we can um keep parti uh encouraging participation.

And I feel that going to Australian ballot isn't discourages participation um in a in a community sense.

And we uh the more we can be strengthening our community, the better these days.

Uh Trish.

Hi, Trish Twining, District 9.

Um just a question with Australian ballot.

Do we not also have the opportunity to use an Australian ballot voting system within the context of RTM or OTM?

Because my understanding is in uh Massachusetts, there's a number of open town meetings that have handheld um you know voting uh that you have in your lap.

And several people I know in Massachusetts have said you can't tell how the person to your right or left is is voting.

It's very subtle.

Um and I I'm firmly a proponent of an open discourse, be it OTM or RTM.

Thank you.

Um I apologize to everyone for not uh appearing in person tonight, but I uh felt a little ill just as I was about to get into the shower and prepare to go downtown.

I just have a couple of points to make.

I have been very clear with the select board and the public that I oppose rescinding representative town meeting, because I believe it is a superior form of government.

Um and if you read my op-ed, which was published in the commons this week, you will hear me lay out various arguments for why.

Uh so I won't belabor that point, but I do want to point out that some of the information presented by the Australian ballot proponents is somewhat misleading.

In fact, turnout for Australian ballot ballot towns in Vermont is not consistently over 20%.

In 25 in 2025, Hartford only had a turnout of 16.2% out of 9700 voters.

Essextown had only 10.76% out of 9400 voters.

Both of those towns have much higher numbers of registered voters than Brattleboro.

Also, the fact that the tax burden may correlate to median income of towns does not in any way indicate that there is any causal relationship between the type of voting and the tax burden.

In fact, Brattleboro's uh median household income is much less than those of Hartford and Essex.

And we don't see that there's a correlation there in turnout or tax burden.

It's ironic for me as a Georgist to be speaking against adopting Australian ballot, considering Henry George was the primary proponent in the movement to adopt it here in the United States.

I'm not opposed to participation in governance.

I'm opposed to the idea that a secret ballot necessarily produces better outcomes than republicanism.

We should be clear that everyone in this town already has the opportunity to vote, but they are voting for a representative Republican deliberative body.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Um Gary want to speak.

And I'm assuming Bob is here for the duration.

Do you have another item to discuss?

I can just be really brief and and thank you, Gary, for letting me jump in.

Uh to answer the question about having an open town meeting, and then at that meeting being able to vote by Australian ballot.

Uh that uh I think what the person that asked about that is talking about if there are seven people that ask for a secret ballot, then you can have, or not a secret ballot, a paper ballot, uh at a typical open meeting, then the vote on that particular article is by paper ballot.

So the moderator in those situations, uh, if somebody asks for that, the moderator asks if there are seven people who agree.

If the answer is yes, then it's a paper ballot.

It's not necessarily uh the Australian ballot system.

So just again, just a clarification.

Thank you, Bob.

Gary.

Okay, I'm gonna be real quick.

I think at the last RTM, we had what they called a roll call ballot.

And I was wondering the differences between roll call, you know, voting in RTM versus OTM.

And if any of them could speak to that to see any disparities, the pros and cons of that also to see the strengths and weaknesses of that, because in general, that's what has happened in the past that that was called, so it's pretty similar.

Uh, see what your representatives voted on.

So that's also some type of transparency, knowing the representation, because a lot of people say they're not being represented, but open roll call also is a good way of saying that, hey, you're speaking about issues in your community.

And you know, people coming up to you asking you if is if you can bring up this, because there's a lot of people that can't get out to vote.

Um, there's a lot of people that aren't even registered voters, but do they still have a say in the community just as well?

Um, they can't be excluded.

So I think something like that would be something we would consider.

That's a positive for RTM because you could always find out how your people voted.

But I just want to ask the uh people who spoke early about the difference uh between OTM and I'll just say what the pros and cons of that is.

And um yield my time.

Um, do you want to weigh in on that question or should we let the petitioners answer that question?

I think the petitioners can weigh in on that, and Bob might be able to weigh in on that as a moderator of an open town meeting himself.

Thank you.

Okay, we'll say that to the end, and then we'll ask Susan.

What Bob?

Bob?

Yeah, Bob has an answer.

With reg with regard to the question on roll call, that's specific to the representative town meeting and our rules of of how you vote.

So in our rules in the charter that exists as of now with representative town meeting, uh it's by standing vote.

Uh and typically that's a way to see visually how people are voting.

A roll call vote asks uh, which is allowed under our rules, allows for it for the uh clerk to go down the role of all of the representatives to have each representative vote yes or no on that particular uh item.

In an open town meeting, you're not going to have a roll call because the voters are not representatives, and that's the main difference there.

Thank you.

Uh Susan.

Oh, we can't hear you.

Guys, I thought I hit unmute, but I didn't.

I can hear you now.

Okay.

Um I am a strong supporter for Australian ballot because it is really difficult to sit through 10 to 12 hours worth of meetings and in the warning that's put out for our representative town meeting, and I'm sure it would have to apply to open town meeting.

It would be required for a two-day notice just in case uh the items run over.

Um more than the one-day cutoff of five A 5 p.m.

And I really think that people will feel more empowered and more and connected to the town if they have a chance to go to the voting booth and vote their conscience and vote what is best for them versus trying to trust uh one person or uh uh 35 people within a district to make that decision for you.

That is a really hard burden and heavy burden for a representative town meeting person to carry, that they're uh speaking for so many people in their district.

And that is one reason why I called for roll call vote at the last RTM was because I thought it was only fair that the people in the districts are held accountable for how they vote to the people that they're supposed to be representing.

But with Australian ballot, everyone gets to vote their own conscience, they get to do it in privacy, they're not forced to um have a visual appearance on how they feel and and how they want to vote.

It's all personal, and that's what voting is supposed to be: a personal decision that is held in confidence between you and your God.

Yet it is not something that you should have to share with anyone.

And uh I think that this town is sophisticated enough to handle Australian ballot and do it correctly.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay, is there anyone else who'd like to speak?

Well, David, you've spoken before, so I'm just gonna and uh Neil.

I'm gonna let new speakers and then you and Gemma can David can speak.

Thank you.

I'm Neil Manders, District 7, uh, also known as the Sinner.

Um if you haven't read the common, uh, you now know that I came to the meeting the other night and talked about having been on uh an RTM member this last month or last year, and how I really ended up feeling that I had not totally represented the people that I was supposed to be representing.

And so that is one part.

And I think there are a number of other people who show up at the RTM meetings who have similar um backgrounds uh that that really are not fully representing the the district or people.

The other thing I would like to mention is that I think it really makes sense that if we go with a one person one vote, that we have to change a little bit of the way that things have been going.

That there needs to be an awful lot more of I think what uh somebody mentioned over here, um uh a large meeting at which whether or not it was a binding voting time, it was at least a time for everybody to get into.

Right now, you cannot get into if you um are not a member, if you are not physically present at either RTM or OTM, you cannot be participating.

You can't there is no, I don't believe you can watch it, but I don't believe you can actually participate.

Um with uh with the uh uh informational type meeting, it can happen that you could have as many people as you've got here tonight coming into that meeting from a nursing home from home babysitting their own child, any of those ideas, they can come in and participate in that general discussion.

So I really encourage people to go with the uh with the Australian ballot.

I think that's the probably the best way to go for this point, but know that it's gonna take some work.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay, so Kate.

Oops, I'm sorry now.

Um hi everybody, I'm Kate O'Connor Brattleborough, and I'm gonna make it quick because there are lots of very articulate people that went before me.

Um I'm just gonna encourage my friends and neighbors to support open town meeting.

Um for everything everybody has said that I think we need more conversation in this town as opposed to less, that when you're at an open town meeting, we actually get to make changes to what the select board um bring forward on the meeting warning, also known as the agenda.

Um if we're doing a paper ballot, whatever three people here vote for is what we're all stuck with.

So I really encourage people, and if you're a uh representative town meeting fan, I encourage you to vote to keep representative town meeting.

What I vote urge you to vote for open town meeting, um, because if um if by some chance representative town meeting goes away, you need your second choice.

So keep keep us all participating, keep us all talking.

I think that's the best way that we can um be a community together.

So thank you.

Okay, David, one minute.

David Gardenstein, I'm moderator, I'm a district nine voter.

Town meeting is participatory and deliberative democracy.

Gathered together, we listen respectfully to one another.

We consider what others have to say, we deliberate, and then we vote collectively.

Australian ballot would sacrifice that deliberative process.

The arguments in favor of Australian ballot um do not, in my view, carry water.

Um the uh it it is argued that Australia ballot is not that that town meeting is not representative, but the same process would apply to the budget article that currently applies to electing representatives in an Australian ballot system.

We would have a fixed number to vote on without the benefit of having discussed that fully and without the benefit of having deliberated that and had the opportunity to make amendments.

There's also concerns that town meeting has not been fiscally responsible.

I would call everybody's attention to the fact that it is a select board that develops and presents the budget.

It is select board that has presented to us budgets with significant tax increases for years, and it is town meeting, in fact, this past year, that rejected that budget.

So I would recommend to everybody staying with the town meeting form of government.

I support personally open town meeting because I don't see a reason why people should not be allowed to attend, but it doesn't seem to me that in a time when our federal government is challenging our rights and undercutting our freedoms, that we should be stepping away from participatory and uh deliberative democracy.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Uh Gemma.

Thank you.

I would just like to offer a clarifying point.

As I said, I am a Georgia, a follower of Henry George, who was the primary proponent of bringing the Australian ballot to the United States.

And I think that there is some deep uh misunderstanding of what exactly an Australian ballot is.

Australian ballot is not the process of having everyone come to a central location in town and cast votes.

Australian ballot is generally accepted as meaning nothing more than a secret ballot.

Um so the provisions of Australian ballot can apply to representative town meeting.

It would just have to be obviously a secret paper ballot rather than people going to uh preordained pre-printed ballots and and voting tabulation machines.

Um so I I think that that just really needs to be established here that we can have Australian ballot votes on every article at representative town meeting.

It's not uh you know, it's not exclusive to a town-wide ballot, which is how I think we should refer to town-wide votes.

Thank you.

Thank you.

All right.

Um as I see it.

Okay.

Uh uh Dick and then Tony would be the last speakers, and then I'll ask uh the petitioners to come and give their closing statements.

So Dick and then Tony.

Yes, I have a question for the town attorney, if it goes to open town meeting.

Would there still be an opportunity to uh as we have now any actions by town meeting can be taken forward for an Australian ballot uh through 50 signatures of RTM members or the required number of registered voters.

Would that still apply, or how would that apply to open town meeting?

And I'll wait for your answer.

If I sorry, I jumped in.

Go right ahead, Bob, please.

Uh what uh Mr.

De Gray is talking about is in our charter, we have a process by where there can be a referendum that goes to Australian ballot of a decision or a vote made at representative town meeting.

The uh in the state statute, there is the ability to reconsider a vote at town meeting.

Uh I'll have to check uh I don't have the statute right in front of me uh on reconsideration whether that requires it to be Australian ballot.

I don't think it does if you are in an open town meeting uh situation.

But I'll I can double check that and get back to you, Mr.

De Gray.

Okay, Tony, you have the last word.

Okay.

I planned that before.

Yes, and then the petitioners.

Um Tony Duncan, District 9.

Um, in transparency, my wife is the one talking about the uh town meeting.

Um I'm repeating something that other people have said that this is actually another layer of democracy, open town meeting, that democracy is not just allowing people to vote by secret ballot.

Democracy involves many, many different aspects, and I think it's important for Brattleboro to maintain something special that's really been pretty unique to New England and that adds to uh discussion.

Um as my wife was saying, when I first moved here, I thought I knew about politics.

I was like, I'm I'm a politics history nerd, and I didn't think that local pollox would be that big of a deal.

Um becoming an RTM member just totally blew that out of the water.

There's so much that people need to learn in order to understand the issues, and in my view, in order to make an informed decision.

And I think it's very, very important that people take that responsibility seriously, and I think that the town meeting helps create that um that meaning for people to take that seriously and to um try to understand as much of the issues as possible.

Um the other thing that people have mentioned that I think is vitally important, I've changed my mind.

I've stood up when Millicent sat down.

Um there have been times when because of meeting, even though I prepared for it, right after, you know, right, you know, I had a definite view, and then after town meeting, I've totally changed it or change it slightly.

Um the other thing that I think is important that uh I think a lot of the things about Australian ballot are valid arguments in terms of um accessibility.

I think one thing that I disagree with completely is the loudest voices in the room.

I think that going to Australian ballot is going to make media and social media the key format, and that the people with the loudest voices are the ones that are going to dominate, and the people that have the resources to get more um more resources to to flood media and social media are going to be the ones that are going to have the most influence.

Thank you, Tony.

All right.

Um let's have Millicent and Randy come to the table and give their two-minute uh closing statements.

Yeah.

And we'll do Randy first because Millicent spoke first.

I think we spoke last last time, so please give her that chance as well.

So first I want to thank everybody, because one person, one vote, the League of Women Voters, a lot of people promote this, and and the one thing that we truly are trying to get is more people to vote in any way that they can.

I also appreciate everyone bringing up the history, not only of Vermont, but of voting across the world.

It's very important that we don't repeat past mistakes.

One person, one vote, secret ballot, all the different names and nuances that were discussed tonight are very important.

I do think, as the last gentleman brought up, social media, different things, we've evolved.

They're all important in democracy.

They're all important in discussion.

Can they all be influenced?

Absolutely.

Can a limited number of representatives be influenced?

Absolutely.

The point here isn't to limit things, it's to grow discussion.

I hope that both petitions and also the referendum that's on the ballot, continue to do that.

The more people that come out and talk, the better.

We need everyone to be able to vote in their own way.

And we've done that through absentee ballot.

Vote in person early voting, as well as voting on the day of.

And if there's some other opportunities in the future that citizens of our town decide we need to change the charter and do some of the things people discussed, that's great too.

Our initial love was open town meeting modified to go and do all the things that everybody talked about, and then some later date go and vote Australian ballot on if anything was changed from different from the select board.

So I still believe Australian ballot is the best way to go where we are currently today.

And we do need to change how we discuss things leading up to that.

Way more informational meetings, way more people sitting down in different formats, not just a listening section, not just the informational meeting before whatever meeting or at a select board.

We need caucuses throughout on monthly or quarterly basis.

Thank you.

Thank you, Randy.

Millicent?

It's nice to be part of a community where so many people are asking good questions about how to make a government better.

Um our current system of participatory government where the budget is debate debated and voted and where citizens can propose and amend and make compromises, has so much positive uh thing features to offer for the cause of democracy.

Um I think this was what Linda Bailey was saying.

We're already experiencing this instability at the national level around us.

I just um I think we need to continue to build on our own civic skills and working together and not completely change our own form of government that's doing so much for us already.

Um Australian ballot has some good things to offer.

We are incorporating some elements of that already.

Um if we go to that for voting on everything, it will encourage passive reliance on our bureaucracy, and it should be us talking with each other.

Um any this new form of government is also gonna come with its own problems.

So I don't I think it's foolish to believe that it's gonna make everything all better.

We have something great already.

Thank you.

Thank you.

All right, thank you everyone for this discussion.

Would you like me to answer the question about the um it there is a process, it's 17 VSAs 2661, and the revote would be in the same form as the original vote.

So you could do it under either an Australian ballot or an open town meeting format, but the the second vote would be in the same form as the first.

Same format.

All right, thank you.

All right, I thought I want to thank everyone.

I want to close this public hearing and uh move on to the next.

Um the next is the ballot question regarding uh representative town meeting.

Um may I ask Andy Davis to come to the table.

Is it possible to put it on the table for the belief or this one or for every people in the audience?

Why don't you put it all over?

I'd like a gun.

Okay.

Isn't this oh no?

That's tobacco.

Okay, so um there are two speakers tonight.

Andy Davis will be speaking about representative town meeting in a positive light.

And then we'll hear from Tom Grasso in the negative.

I get one of those.

Yeah, I'm coming.

Okay.

Thank you.

All said?

Yes, please.

Thank you for this opportunity.

Before any of these other things can come up.

The first question that we will face on the ballot on March 3rd is whether we want to rescind representative town meeting.

So I I asked to be able to make this presentation.

What is representative town meeting?

I'm here tonight to speak for RTM.

A hundred and fifty town reps, that's the 140 reps plus the ex officio members who are also elected members of our government.

The select board, town moderator, even our state reps who live in Brattleboro are part of representative town meeting, all elected officials.

They come together face to face in participatory democracy.

Reps are elected from across the three legislative districts, ensuring that there is broad representation of our community.

Contact information for all members is readily available on the town website, and district meetings and caucuses are held, other than at the annual RTM.

RTM, I look this up.

It's larger than the U.S.

Senate and the Vermont Senate combined.

We are representative of this community.

That does not mean that we are beholden to any particular point of view, but we have passed into that body by the vote of the public, and we do we are representative of this community.

And I will mention that there are open seats this year, so if you want to mount a write-in campaign, you can participate.

RTM serves a fundamental purpose of deliberation, amendment, examination, and even interrogation of town officials and the select board regarding the budget and its formation.

You may recall that the 2026 budget was rejected by RTM.

RTM has a unique role.

It is the largest regularly scheduled gathering of citizens in Brattleboro with the ability to discuss and respond to our common interests and challenges.

RTM operates with commitment.

When I get a calendar for the coming year, the first thing I mark is RTM and the information meetings.

It operates with civility and consistency in times of acute controversy and in times of non-controversy.

So we get the same quorum if nobody's worried about anything.

All voices are heard.

I've done trainings on Robert's rules, and I I love watching it in action at RTM.

The majority prevails when questions are voted upon, but all voices are heard.

What are the other elements of democracy in our town?

We already have the Australian ballot in Brattleboro.

We elect both our select board, our town meeting representatives, and other town officials by the Australian ballot.

We have universal suffrage in Brattleboro.

Every citizen votes and has a say in choosing our select board and other town officers.

Our town committees are filled with volunteers who serve our town, which is another way to participate in democracy.

Representative town meeting is another opportunity for service.

Citizen-initiated referendums are a check on both the RTM and the Select Board, as was just mentioned by the town attorney.

We have a very liberal town charter that provides numerous opportunities for citizen-led participatory action.

How does RTM function with these other elements of democracy?

All three options on this March's ballot are fundamental elements of the democratic process.

We have representative bodies.

We have open meetings like we're having right now, and we have Australian ballot, and they work together in our town, not against one another.

However, they have different functions.

RTM is an extension of our freedoms, not a limitation.

It allows there to be a regular review and check upon our select board.

RTM does not stand alone.

It's part of a system of checks and balances.

Replacing RTM will change the power relationships in our town government.

RTM is more than a deliberate body, a deliberative body.

It can amend articles and influence our town with new ideas and proposals.

That's actually a quote from our charter.

RTM is part of checks and balances.

RTM is a check on the select board.

You might recall we voted down a controversial ordinance, but at the same time we fully funded the police department.

It was a matter of compromise.

And I would mention, better keep going though.

Hard to get off the track.

Easy to get off the track.

In contrast, Australian ballot means we would approve or disapprove a number.

If it fails, we would then get another number.

The new number is again developed and proposed by the select board and the town administration.

Is there a check on RTM?

Yes, referendums.

What other roles and powers does RTM have?

Well, we've also weighed in and discussed many controversial topics in Brattleboro, and I think offered positive uh input on that.

Everything from solid waste, 1% tax, use of the fund balance, and on and on and on.

Anyone who has a desire to commit themselves and engage can do this work and contribute to decision making, but it does take a willingness to serve.

Has RTM contributed to the rise in municipal taxes?

Can I just finish this paragraph?

Of course.

Thank you very much.

RTM is no longer part of the school budget review since the reorganization of the school district.

We only review and act on the municipal budget and town finances.

RTM did not create the forces that are driving our tax increases and financial pressures.

We hear taxes are too high.

We have to get rid of RTM.

Or we hear we have to bring the tax rate down.

But here are the things you can't bring down.

And that list can be different for everybody you talk to.

The last, just to end this, I'd say that moving forward, we are likely headed for deeper cuts and further reduction in services with our growing social needs and the cut in federal and state uh assistance.

And RTM, I believe, is uniquely prepared to face this situation.

I think we should keep it.

We need it, it has functioned well for 60 years.

It will serve us as we face the future.

Much of what I have said about RTM would also be true of open town meeting, which is the default method of participatory democracy in Vermont.

I'll be voting no on Article 2, no on Article III, and yes on Article 4.

And I'm thankful that all that voting I do on that ballot will be done by Australian ballot open to all Brattleboro voters.

Thank you.

Thank you.

All right.

Now let's hear from Tom Grassow regarding the uh lack of merit to RTM.

Uh thank you, Chair and uh and select board members.

Um pleased to be here virtually.

Sorry I couldn't be there in person, uh, but I was away on work travel.

Um I think I'd like to first mention that because you know my voice is only one voice, and my and I only have one vote.

Um, there are a number of letters to the editor and the reformer that have a lot to say about um the Australian ballot and the and why they like it, and I would encourage folks uh to go and read some of those uh to get a broader perspective on the what the community really thinks about uh about this issue.

Um I also last year, while this topic was being debated, uh presented uh an opinion piece to the Brattleboro reformer about my views on this, and if you want to read that, you'll have a better sense of where I'm coming from.

But for tonight, I thought given it given the late hour, I'd be a little bit brief and give you three reasons why I think representative town meeting is not for Brattleboro anymore.

Number one and most important, it's undemocratic.

Number two, it's an unrealistic process for making decisions about important issues like the town budget.

And number three, it's unnecessary given the processes we have in place already.

Let me say a little bit more about each of those things.

Uh undemocratic.

We we heard a lot tonight about people talking about our community and we.

We want to get together and discuss things.

We're talking about 140 people, not the town.

So who is the community that we're referring to when we talk about representative town meeting?

It's those people who can have the time and energy to attend these meetings and to make decisions, uh, not on the behalf of everybody in the town, but on the opinion that they have for themselves.

Granted, I will give you the fact that there's some people who try to be representative in nature, but I will tell you, I was not elected as an RTM, or I was voted in by the caucus twice because there weren't enough seats to be filled.

It's not a representative form of government.

I completely disagree with it.

It's essentially an old boy or old men and women club that they want to keep it the way they have it, had it for a long time, and they want to second guess and Monday morning morning quarterback, the select board process.

It's unrealistic because you can't imagine that you have one day that every that 140 people are going to look at a 27 million dollar budget and make informed decisions about what's the right answer for the town.

The select board spends the entire year hearing from town citizens of all stripes, and they make decisions.

This is not a universal.

I I would defy somebody to demonstrate to me that the select board has voted five zero on anything this year of import.

This is a deliberative body in and of itself, and it's one that listens to the public the entire year, not just one day in March.

Um thirdly, it's unnecessary.

We have had such a debate about this topic of how we in this town of Brattleboro should vote.

The town charter commission, all the public meetings that the select board has had, letters to the editor, social media.

I understand that Commons is going to have another discussion next week.

We don't need another town meeting where people get to vote for everybody else in town.

What I was proposing is similar to what others were saying.

We should we can have an open town meeting, have it be the last discussion that we have.

But give the right to the silent majority in this town that don't get a chance to be heard to have their say, to have them their ability to exercise their first amendment right to vote for what is important to them.

And frankly, they don't necessarily need to listen to me to make up their mind.

They don't need to listen to you.

They're rational beings that can make up their own mind based on what they read in the paper or what they believe, uh, as I think Sue Belleville said, what between what they there and their God want them to do.

So I'll uh stop there.

Thank you, Tom.

Okay.

Um, are there comments from the public?

Peter.

Thank you.

Um, Peter O'Wall Bradlebroke.

Um I waited until now to make these comments instead of um during the discussion earlier, um, because I want to speak in favor of a vote to retain the representative town meeting, and I want to explain why.

Um it's because I'm concerned with the structure of this ballot, which I know that you all did with a lot of legal advice and in the manner that it had to be presented, so I'm not judging that, but because it's complicated and because we'll be voting on three separate questions on the same day.

I'm concerned that um there will be the potential for a no vote on RTM if people are concerned that it has flaws.

Um, and then also a no vote on OTM, and if it's a yes vote on Australian ballot, that's where we land.

I'm very concerned about that for reasons we've heard from lots of other speakers tonight regarding participation in our town government and the value of making decisions together.

So, on behalf of representative town meeting, while I personally actually don't care whether we end up with a representative town meeting or an open town meeting, I think it's important that we preserve a system that we can listen to each other and learn from each other, change each other's minds, which we've seen happen and some of us have personally experienced.

Um, and even when we don't change each other's minds, the the dialogue of it, the fact that we're wrestling with tough issues together as a community in a room, um, allows us to build community strength in our community and leave that room better understanding why our neighbors might see something differently than we do.

The opportunity to make amendments has been talked about quite a lot.

That's huge.

Um, instead of just a yes or no vote, I don't understand how it's empowering to the public, to the voters to um be put into a system where it's just a yes or no vote on what comes to us from the board, uh, rather than having the opportunity to have dialogue, make amendments, work hard at uh finding common ground and compromises.

Um it seems to me that that's more meaningful voter participation.

I think that Australian ballot would increase the power of the select board, reduce the power of the people.

So I hope that we will retain a system, whether it's open town meeting or representative town meeting, uh, where we can continue to come together as a community to make these decisions uh together as neighbors.

Thanks.

Thank you.

No.

Now, Mayo Brattleboro.

Um I will speak from a personal perspective where I find it's a little ironic that people are advocating for the ability to participate and then also saying that it's too much to ask those who want to participate to educate themselves.

Because if the argument is that there's a silent majority that really desperately needs to vote yes or no on the budget without debates, without a right to amend.

But they don't have the time to take a 12-hour day off.

Do they have the time to read the town report?

Do they have the time to read the finance committee report?

Do they have the time to pay attention to the budget development process the entire time?

I'm a working person.

I'm somebody who does not have a lot of leisure time.

Um I as many people are, and we can all speak from our personal experience in that regard.

If you want to not to come off as disrespectful to anyone's anyone, how they structure their life, but if you want to make the sacrifices in other aspects of your life to learn this, you will do it.

And if you don't want to, that is the point of having representatives.

I also think once again, it's been pointed out, but people misunderstand what the representative in town meeting refers to.

It's to have a representative group of the three districts, and it's to allow for a quorum, which open town meeting doesn't have.

It's the same way that none of us are going to say that any of you will 100% represent our point of view.

But you get to know someone and you say, okay, this is how they think.

This is whether or not I respect their decision making process and how they feel obligated to educate themselves before making a decision, and then I'll engage with that.

Um so I I think it's a little insulting to voters, basically, to say, well, they want to say yes or no, but you can't expect them to educate themselves.

You can't expect them to have a burden of participation or defense to an argument.

Timothy Vinford Timothy Bellknap, RTM 9.

I see everyone's gathered here tonight for this.

And if this were the case for every select board meeting with this kind of dialogue, that would be brilliant.

Okay.

So both OTM and RTM create real barriers to participation.

Arguments used to defend them rest on flawed assumptions.

First is the idea that some people are more informed and therefore better suited to take decisions away from others.

That's elitists.

Others claim that social media will influence the vote.

Yet somehow the 150 elected RTM or self-appointed OTM are impervious to this.

That's also an elitist and gives your neighbors very little credit.

Second, we're told that decisions are better when made by groups that claim needs some evidence, some hard scientific evidence, especially when these groups deny thousands of residents the rights to vote directly.

Third is the claim that RTM or OTM deliberate on an on the budget.

RTM does not, in fact, allow budget amendments.

It's an up or down or plus or minus.

March 22nd, RTM, select board received guidance, reduce the budget.

That's not meaningful deliberation.

In addition, those who like to deliberate should attend select board meetings, such as this evening in person or via Zoom.

There are 25 of those per year, according to my account.

If that's not a fifth sufficient, create a meeting at the library to do your deliberation.

Finally, representation.

Based on the roll call votes, we have proof that RTM members are not representative.

May 25th RTM revised budget vote had 24 elected members absent, 11 abstained, and four no's.

Absent and abstained represented 2,275 voters, or nearly 25% of that voting population.

Point here is that RTM does not represent, but also the absent individuals have good excuses, and the abstainees had good reason not to vote their record publicly alongside their names.

Question is why wouldn't we extend these courtesies to all registered voters so they can privately vote in the booth or absentee ballot from the comfort of their own kitchen table?

Tom, time.

Oh, that's my time?

All right.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Uh Fred.

Peter Elwell spoke.

Uh say state your name, please.

Frick's Bright, District 9 rep.

Um is uh one of many of the uh good old boys who have um taken uh their Saturdays off and uh uh an evening or two to participate in this extraordinary adventure of uh representative town meeting.

Uh I have found the deliberation very valuable.

I have been thrilled with the number of young people who've joined in recent years.

Um I think it's uh livened up the discussion and uh I was uh comparing notes with some other RTM members on the number of people whose acquaintance I've made and happily because of RTM.

Um and I'm thrilled with how it knits us together uh from all walks.

Um is a fantastic example of somebody who has stepped up despite needing to you know make a living uh in a challenging world as a member of the finance committee who works for RTM and brings us fantastic detailed information.

I've sat through a couple of their meetings, and uh the degree of attention to detail and um knowledge and dedication there is uh kind of mind-blowing to me, and I appreciate what they bring to us.

Uh the fact democracy is about who shows up at the end of the day, no matter what.

Um you guys showed up, and thank you for that.

And uh you guys work a lot harder than any of us, which I appreciate.

And uh the fact that there have been the right number of people, give or take to uh be RTM members as uh we need is a testament to how no one really is meaningfully excluded.

Thank you.

Um and then Randy.

Who else has their hand up?

Ken.

Ken, Randy, Andy.

Uh thank you.

Ken Faye, District 8.

Uh I would like to move.

This seems to me like there's a private party uh where people aren't allowed in, and it's in a structure that is everybody's allowed in, and yet there's a there's a block there.

But people aren't even going in the structure.

The fact that we have 30% voting for the five select board, so there's one person, one vote, and they're not taking advantage of that.

And then now we're trying to go into the next level.

I st I don't understand that.

What I would recommend, what I'd like everybody to do is vote for the select board.

And if we get a good number, a large number of more people, then we can discuss, I would think, uh, RTM or not RTM.

But right now, a gentleman said that the RTM is not representative, because I think 29 of the 150 odd didn't show up.

You're right, it isn't representative.

They showed up more than the average voter for the select board.

And uh so that shows RTM is very is yes, as I said, not representative.

They show up.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you.

Randy, then Andy.

First of all, the purpose of this is not to make things more divisive in town, which I think we're kind of getting to that.

The point is to have discussion, to make the town better.

That's what we all want.

No matter who, if they talk on Zoom, if they talk on social media, I would hope they'd come here, but it's their choice, just like represent representative town meeting is a person's choice.

What I see with that is I ran, I was caucused in, my wife was elected, and I'm running again this time.

Is I see in person on social media people saying, I don't know who these people are.

Can you tell me who they are?

I don't want to vote for somebody if I don't know what they stand for.

And we don't have a good system to elect people to provide that to interested voters.

So that's one reason I don't think RTM should continue.

We should go to Australian ballot.

I think it is flawed, and I do agree with other people that said a lot of things are flawed and not perfect.

But it's our job as citizens to vote for what we think we can make better.

And I think Australian ballot can do that with modifications, with people's continued input to say we need more informational meetings, we need this.

And if it is a thing where we could have a town meeting a day before, a week before, whatever the law says, or whatever we decide, then let's figure out how to do that someday.

But for right now, we can do better, I think, with Australian ballot.

There's 9,600 and some voters, I believe, the last time I talked to Hillary.

Okay.

Again, I will say, like I said a few weeks ago.

It's their choice if they show up and vote.

We have 28, 29% the last time showed up and voted for Town Meeting Day, and the other ones made a decision that we weren't going to vote this time.

So please everybody vote is the bottom line.

Please show up and participate.

Thank you.

Okay, Andy.

And then and then Jenna.

Gemma.

Thank you.

Just a couple things.

Um in the rush to kind of get through this in my presentation.

I had a sentence I'd just like to read here.

RTM is an informed, diverse group of citizens familiar with the process of civil public deliberation.

RTM members learn this.

They're not special, they're not elite.

They're just willing to serve, study, and learn.

The other thing I would say is that democracy, wherever it is in the world, should have a big sign over it that says under construction.

Democracy is decision making by group.

That's what it is.

Robert's rules were developed after the Civil War because Roberts traveled around and noticed communities were struggling.

They were struggling with how to make decisions.

And he began writing a uh treatise on how to do it.

And it is now used in organizations and communities all across this country, slightly different versions in our uh some of our uh Congresses and such.

Um the other thing that I would like to put in, put out here is that there are reforms that I believe um uh after this certain season is over and the charter review comes up again.

I personally think that incumbents to RTM should have to get petitions again.

I feel a little guilty when all I have to do is sign and date my name and I'm on back on the ballot.

I think I should have to hit the road again and get petitions.

I think all incumbents should.

And the other thing in our age of information, it would be very easy to have a questionnaire easily available online that all RTM candidates and members could fill out basic information to answer the question who is that guy?

Thank you.

Okay, let's hear from Gemma and then closing remarks from Tom.

Is everyone else spoken?

Yeah, great.

Okay.

Tom Grasso.

Gemma, I wanted to offer a clarifying point, and I hope perhaps the town attorney would be able to correct me on this.

But I believe there is actually no definition I've been able to find of Australian ballot in the Vermont statutes.

The definitions chapter 17 VSA 1 was repealed in 1977 and apparently never replaced.

Um that being said, I want to remind people that it's always easier to destroy than to build.

The founders of our state and our nation, the framers and ratific ratifiers of their constitutions understood very well that to be governed by democracy alone would be to invite government by our worst impulses.

This has become more clear than ever in the present moment, dominated as we have been by divide and conquer ethos of neoliberalism for the past half century.

We get the government we deserve because we get precisely the government that results from the level of care we choose to take in our duty of voting, the level of care we choose to take in our duty to ourselves and to our fellows to inform and educate ourselves and the level of care and consideration we choose to exhibit toward each other and to nature.

The disadvantage of Australian ballot is that there's nothing about it that suggests a voter has any moral obligation to vote in the best interests of anyone but themselves, rather than voting in the best interests of the entire community.

The major problem I see with this is not what form of government we use.

It's an inability and unwillingness to engage in structured, respectful communications with each other, to hear informed opinions about the issues.

As a technologist, I'm committed to solving the inability problem as best I can, but I cannot solve the unwillingness problem.

And in neither case could I ever begin, despite my particular expertise, to solve either problem on my own.

Regardless of which way we go, we need better tools for care and consideration for each other.

And I'm committed to building those tools.

I'm going to say we need a new bigger town hall and a community center to host those tools.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay, Tom.

Tom Grasso.

Hello.

Yep.

Can you hear me?

And hear you.

Yeah, I think they had me turned up.

Uh thanks.

Um, you know, it's interesting.

I I heard a lot about we the community tonight when we're talking about a one-day meeting in March where 140 people get together.

Is that really the Brattleboro community?

I don't think it is.

And I kind of resent the the assertion that that's who we as a community are.

I don't think it's it's it's a bad idea to have that meeting, but I don't think we should vest the control of important decisions to a subset of the of our community who is able to spend time one day uh of the year.

Um I also think it's a little bit misleading to suggest that people who want to cast a vote in a secret ballot don't know how to inform themselves to make decisions.

I will say this.

I I love listening to other people's opinions, and I learned stuff from other people, but I don't necessarily need you to tell me how to vote.

And I think that's a fundamental issue that I have with this idea that somehow there's people who are going to inform me about what I should think.

That's I just don't believe that.

That everybody should should uh necessarily have to do that.

Other people can read a book and make a decision on what they think is right or wrong for the world, for the community, or for themselves.

So I'll leave it at that.

Thank you.

All right.

Well, that would ma'am.

Would you like me to risk I I just want to note that Australian ballot is defined by 17 BSA 21034.

And what is that definition?

An Australian ballot means a uniformly printed ballot, typically confined to the secret vote election of specified offices as previously warned to be voted upon by the Australian ballot system.

It includes any ballots counted by a vote tabulator approved for use in any election conducted in the state.

Thank you very much, Hannah.

Yeah.

Okay, I want to thank everyone for for this discussion and the previous one.

And um, you know, let's all practice democracy and in the way we see fit.

And uh we'll take a break for five minutes and then we'll go on with our uh alcohol and tobacco discussion.

Which I'm sure you're all interested in staying for.

Well, let me just say that the crowd has thinned out.

What?

But online, we still have lots of people.

But um, I'm very happy to welcome this uh liquor and tobacco authority and process discussion.

And we have uh the town attorney and the town clerk.

And so um please um let me welcome you and state your name and give your presentation.

Thank you.

Uh Hilary Francis, town clerk.

And Larry's town attorney.

Um and I know that there's been um lots of liquor and tobacco licenses that have come across your desks.

Um and we thought it might be helpful to just sort of go over both an overview of the process of what happens when these liquor and tobacco licenses and permits um the applications get submitted and what happens from that time before it gets uh sent to you all.

Um so I will cover that, and then Hannah will cover sort of what authority you all have as local liquor and tobacco commissioners.

Um so and and I think that the with the process part of the presentation is what we currently do, and then if there are things that you would like to see changed in the process, um we're certainly welcome to that as well.

Um so when a business applies for a liquor, a liquor or tobacco license or permit, they submit their application through the Department of Liquor and Lotteries portal.

It's an online portal.

Um it has to be done through that.

They have to have an account, they can no longer do paper, which they used to be able to do a few years ago.

Umce they apply and indicate what town um the event or their business is in, um, that immediately triggers an email to come to me and my staff alerting us to the fact that there's an application waiting for our review.

Um if local payment is due, depending on what type of license it is, um, they must submit that directly to the town clerk's office.

They can drop off cash, they can mail or drop off a check, or they can pay online through our website with a credit card.

Umce the application and payment are received, um, the town clerk's office distributes a copy of the application to the following departments for their approval or concerns.

Um I'll just sort of gonna go through what each of those departments look for.

So we send it to the police department.

Um, they look for safety concerns, parking concerns, um, any convictions that are on the application.

Um, while we can see if there's a conviction on the application in our office, we can't drill in.

We can't click on the link and get that information.

We're not we're not privy to that.

Um we send it to the fire department.

They also look for safety, they look to make sure that their certificate of occupancy are the sprinklers working, you know, things, things along those lines.

Our planning department looks um for any zoning concerns or any past violations.

Um our assessor's office looks to make sure that they have a current business license and they're not delinquent on that.

Our finance department looks to make sure there are no delinquent taxes, utilities, or loans.

Um then occasionally we will also send to the recreation and parks department if it's on uh uh one of their properties.

So sometimes there will be a liquor permit that's happening at West River Park or Memorial Park.

So they're making sure that rental of space and everything that they need is done.

We'll send it to public works periodically for them to look at overall safety, electricity needs, things like that.

And the town manager's office always gets these and they'll look at the overall picture.

Is there an open meeting permit required?

Outside can like for outside consumption permit on town-owned sidewalks, they need to sign off on.

And then building a positive community, Cassandra Holloway is always included as well.

And she'll chime in if there are violations or lapses in required education.

She has visibility to that, which we don't necessarily have direct visibility to.

And then when we send this out to all the departments, if there are any concerns from any of those folks, we'll try to work it out between those departments and the applicant before it ever comes to your desk, right?

So if there's a new business that doesn't have a certificate of occupancy yet, we'll make sure that they have that and that the fire department signs off before we send it up to you, before it makes it to your meeting.

And so we we try to coordinate all of that in advance.

You can always request that they come, even if that's not the case, but we will highlight in the memo if there are violations, how many violations and what that looks like, so that you all can make that decision.

But if there's more than two, that'll come to you.

And if there are any concerns that we couldn't figure out and coordinate beforehand, we would highlight that in the memo as well.

Um and then so once the select board acting as the liquor and tobacco commissioners approves the application during your meeting.

Um we as the town clerk's office then approve the applications in the Department of Liquor and Lotteries portal, um, which triggers the state payment directly through the portal from the applicant.

So they pay us, then we get all the approvals, you approve, and then that happens.

And then the Department of Liquor and Lottery looks at things like education certificates, health licenses, violations, things like that.

Um, and they will not approve the license on their end if the applicant is not up to date on those things.

Um then once they give their final approval, a license is issued to the applicant directly through the portal from the Department of Liquor and Lottery.

Um, and one-time permits are approved administratively, going through the same process as above, just in the only time that those come to you is if there's four or more liquor vendors for a particular event.

Otherwise, we just handle it administratively.

Um then the one thing that I would highlight is currently as part of this, when we we send you the memo, or we we draft a memo that sort of outlines, summarizes everything, and then currently we also include a copy of their application.

Um, but we don't do that um when it used to be that liquor license renewals all happened at the same time.

And a few years ago, they changed that to be it's a year from the time that they applied.

Um so when we have the bulk of our renewals that will come up in May, we just send you a report of all of the businesses that are renewing their liquor licenses with a summary of what types of licenses are their violations, it includes their address.

So that would be a question that I'd have for you all is is the application useful?

It's not something that we need to send up, but we do for the one-offs, we don't for the bulk.

Um so if you want me to keep doing that, I will.

If you want me to stop because it's not useful, um, it can save paper.

Um, and then any other suggestions or questions, I'm happy to answer.

I'm happy to pass it over to Anna.

Do you want to address this part first, or would you like me to I'd like to hear from you if I may, and then we'll gather our questions.

So um your authority to issue to issue liquor licenses is in your role as the local liquor control commission, which is separate from your role as the select board, though the select board is the local liquor control commission in Braddleborough anyway.

Um when you're acting as local liquor control commissioners, you are subordinate to and acting on behalf of the state, not the town.

Um you are uh uh uh an entity of the um Department of Liquor and Lotto under the authority of the liquor control commission.

Um you are obligated to administer the rules of the liquor control board in that role.

Um you have a duty to ensure that liquor licenses are only issued to um those who are qualified to hold them, and you do have some discretionary authority to deny a liquor license on the basis of um information that's available to you, um, and as long as that decision is not arbitrary or capricious, uh and it has to be made in good faith and with um a view to advancing the purpose and policies of the laws.

Um so you can deny a license as long as there's sufficient evidence to do so, and there is a good faith uh reason to do so.

Um and you're also allowed to condition a liquor license on compliance with any of the duly adopted ordinances um which mostly concern um entertainment or public nuisance.

So you can put conditions on focus that are in ordinances.

Um with regard to tobacco licenses, there there is no um liquor or no, sorry, there's no tobacco commissioners locally.

Um under state statute, applicants are required to submit their applications to the municipality and pay the font the fees to the municipality, but we're we're basically just a pass-through to the state.

The state has the ultimate authority to issue tobacco licenses, and there's no discretion and the money that we get paid for that application goes directly to the state.

And I'll just, if I may, we actually don't collect any money um for tobacco licenses that they changed their process, I think without changing statute, and that all the money goes directly to the state, it no longer comes to us.

We used to collect it and have to send it to them.

Um and I believe that, especially if a tobacco license is in conjunction with a liquor license, there's no fee at all.

I believe.

Is that correct?

Yeah, I think it's getting like that right now, so that you fill out that it's congregated.

So you have authority to issue liquor licenses with some level of discretion, but you are acting under the regulations and statutes that apply to liquor control and not um not the town, except that you can put conditions on based on ordinances of the town level.

Okay, that's it.

Yes.

Thank you very much.

Colleagues.

Comments, Oscar?

Yeah, a couple questions, thank you.

Um, your question about applications, uh I mean, I don't feel strongly either way, but this is an area where I you know goes through so many different departments.

I would happily just get the memo with the recommendation, but don't feel strongly.

Um Hannah, when you're talking about it can't be a capricious decision for a liquor license, so I assume that I couldn't say I think we should deny this one because I'm not feeling it, right?

That would be capricious.

Yes.

Um if I said I personally don't drink and I think it's bad, so I vote to deny every liquor license.

What about that?

Yes.

Capricious or permitted, do you mean?

Um arbitrary.

It that's not made with the purpose and policy of the law.

Right.

So you're not that wouldn't be advancing the purpose and policy of the liquor control laws.

And then what if instead I said, yeah, I think there's too much drinking in this town and people are out partying all the time, and I don't think we need any more places that sell liquor.

Um I mean, I think that's really more of a First Amendment debate.

Well, that's why I'm sort of wondering.

So my and Hannah's the attorney, she can certainly correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that would be where the ordinance piece comes in, right?

If you passed an ordinance that said on this street or on these streets, there's no um liquor to be sold or served.

Um or between these hours, or you know what, we're gonna be a dry town and we're not gonna do this at all, you could pass an ordinance and um do it that way.

But I don't think that you could say, you know, there's too much alcohol, so we're gonna approve this one, but not approve this one.

You could say in an ordinance, we're only approving 60 20, whatever number.

Um I know that other states do that where it's you're only allowed X number of liquor licenses in town.

Um so I believe that you could do that through ordinance, and once there's an ordinance, then you have that to fall back on.

But I don't think that you can approve some, not approve others just because that's what you feel like doing.

You can place restrictions through zoning and ordinances on where and when and things like that, but you can't just say I think there's too many bars in town.

Right.

Okay.

So generally, when we get to the point where there's a liquor lesson uh license in front of us, sounds like more or less we need to approve it.

And if we want to approve liquor licenses differently, we'd need we'd want to take some more official step first, such as an ordinance.

Is that we need to approve it if someone had a bunch of violations.

But if it was a clean application, generally we want some other step first.

Right.

You would need some sort of justification for denying it.

Okay.

I would say especially because we've gone through the vetting process to make sure that they have their business license and they're not delinquent and right, like we've sort of done a lot of that work for you.

Okay.

And then my only other question on the tobacco, you said we don't have discretion.

So that means if we get you don't even issue it.

The state issues it, you just accept the application.

Okay, but that means if we get one of those, we are accepting it.

There's you are not no, it's it's going to the state for acceptance.

But I mean, I have to sign off on it saying that the select board has approved it.

I'm just like we get them on our consent agenda, and it sounds like what you're saying is that that's just a procedural thing, and we have to say yes because we don't have discretion.

We didn't say there was one time when we put res conditions, so I believe, on a tobacco We did because they had had a violation.

Right.

So however you did that.

I don't believe you necessarily had the authority to do that, but the way that we're handling it is the Department of Liquor and Lottery has approved it for a full year.

Um we are I spoke to them about it, and they said because you said six months, we can bring them before you again, and you can always pull it and say we're revoking it and ask the Department of Liquor and Lottery to revoke it at six months if they haven't complied with what you've asked for.

Okay.

But technically it's been issued for the full year and there's no mechanism to put the six-month condition that you did on it.

And the revocation would come from liquor and lotto.

You would be requesting that of them.

Right.

Okay.

Okay.

Great.

So Amanda?

Oh, Peter, go ahead.

Yeah.

Um with regards to the the questionnaire, um, um I'll just echo what Oscar said.

I I feel like it's gone through enough of a process, so um I'm good with just like the recommendation without the additional work.

Um, but my question is in that process, um I imagine that do you if this person has like five violations, does it still get this far?

Yes.

Well, I will put in that memo that they have five violations, I will summarize them, and I will preemptively tell them ordinance says if you have two or more violations, you have to come before the select board.

So they will be at the meeting to speak to it, and it would go on a regular agenda item and not on consent.

And then we would be well within our rights to go, no, we're not gonna let that one fly.

Yes.

Right.

Okay.

All right.

I just as long as I'm I'm just want to make sure that I'm clearly understanding the process.

I thought that is how I thought it was, but I just wanted to make sure, since we're going through this process.

Yeah.

I will say I would like to have less paper.

Um, and I think that's that would be fine for ones that are there where there haven't been any violations.

But if it is something where there have been violations, I am interested in seeing documentation of that or if there's I remember looking through some of those sort of primary documents for where there was a violation, it was helpful to have a better understanding.

So violations are different than convictions.

What you're seeing on the application is hey, there is this conviction.

The violations don't appear on the applications.

Oh, yeah.

That I get from Cassandra or I get from the Department of Liquor and Lottery, um, because they'll email me and then I'll summarize it for you.

Okay.

And I'll say the violation was on this date, it was a first, second, third, tenth violation.

Um, and this is the action that the state took on them.

It might be a suspension, it might be, hey, you had to go get a training.

Um so I'll I'll summarize all of that information, but I don't have documentation.

It's other than an email um from Cassandra or the seat.

So maybe that's what I'm remembering actually.

Yeah.

But yeah, if you could continue to do that, yeah.

That would be great.

Amanda, do you have any comments?

Um well, I just thank you for the presentation.

It's been really helpful.

And um there are some questions that I would like to refer to Cassandra because she's here um and provided us with some guidance too.

So um, especially the one about the opinion on even having the primary application or not.

Um just because there is a lot of information, and as new select board members, we're not really quite sure of what we're seeing.

So um my turn.

Um first of all, I just want to say that not having to convene and adjourn as liquor commissioners is uh fantastic.

I would always forget the word adjourn, and then people would have to remind me, and it was a big pain in the ass.

But anyway.

Um I think the standard, it's not just capricious, it's arbitrary and reasonable and capricious, right?

And don't some lawyers spend their lives debating those issues.

So um it's upon the basis of any knowledge or information available, so long as it is not arbitrary or capricious, but is made in good faith and with a view toward of advancing the policy and purpose of the law.

So arbitrary or capricious.

Thank you.

I suppose it could be and we can split all the hairs we want about those two.

It doesn't have to be both.

Okay, great.

Um and then I just remember, you know, we had a um liquor license and I guess entertainment license that we wanted to control the timing of.

And then we learned that we can't about the liquor part, no, we could about the entertainment part.

And so that was a piece of knowledge that we were happy to have.

But in the same time, shocking that every liquor license lasts from such and such a time, like eight o'clock in the morning to one o'clock at night or tell me.

Do you know, Hillary, what that is?

I don't remember if it's one or two AM.

Yeah, I think maybe it was two.

I think it's eight to two, I used to.

Yeah.

Eight to two.

So I was in a restaurant maybe previously.

That piece of information is interesting and you know, very surprising to all of us on on this side of the table.

I would say though, I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, if you passed an ordinance limiting that, then that would apply to every license holder, but you could limit it that way.

You just can't do it license by license.

Right.

We can't do it on a case-by-case basis.

Just like zoning.

Okay, so um, can I ask you to to switch places with Cassandra so we can hear Cassandra, but I would like you to stick around in case there's questions.

Thank you.

Welcome.

Please introduce yourself and whenever you're ready.

Sandra Holloway, I'm the director of building a positive community, and uh one of the main things we do is substance use prevention and um we recently got a grant, one of 13 in the nation to address underage drinking.

Um so that kind of tells you one.

Um that's awesome.

We have four years uh to to address it, and it also means that it was obviously compelling enough with the need to get it.

So I look forward to uh more conversation around that.

But I just got it.

So I'm a little rusty.

And thank God for Hillary for helping me and Jen Fisher, who's my go-to at the DLL Department of Liquor and Lottery.

We had the this grant, it's called a stopback grant back several years ago.

And I think it ended in 2002.

So there's been a good five-year gap where I haven't had enough funding to really support you all.

So here I am.

Okay.

So what I wanted to share with you was some just information and some recommendations and resources specifically to what we're talking about here around compliance issues, um, some maybe some necessities around trainings.

So alcohol compliance checks are done on a sample basis.

So the FDA does require that all tobacco licensees who were selling tobacco get audited.

Um the state gets money to do that.

They do not get money to do alcohol, and they've also been understaffed at DLL.

So I will say that it's been minimal what they've done in the past and they're hoping to do more, but it's still only going to be a sampling.

Um so that and now what they're trying to do is um it looks like they're going to be shifting to getting a sampling of tobacco.

So they were trying to fight so they don't have to do all the tobacco.

Um, not fight, but like to say like we have enough information from the samples to not have to do every single one of the tobacco retailers.

So that's just good to know that that's coming up.

Um just put in here is it sounds like there's this 12 use, there was a 12-month kind of like if you don't have more than if you have um more than two violations in 12 months, then you would have to come in front of all of you.

And I'm a little concerned about that timeline, knowing that they might not get another, you know, usually what happens if they feel um for a compliance check, which is um what I usually get flagged in is if they have a minor actually come and purchase the alcohol or tobacco, um, usually tobacco again, because of the funding, and the person doesn't uh card them and goes to start the process, then they will get the noncompliance.

And so that would be brought to you.

Usually about two or three months later, they do the same thing again.

And then that would be where that second one would happen, right?

So if they are probably gonna be pretty on guard, um, maybe fired that person a little bit more, but like nine months down the road, a year from the road, is that still gonna be the case?

So I would just encourage to be careful about that 12 month, because there might be somebody who's kept, you know, every time they're getting actually um compliance checked, they're failing, but it could be every three years, if that makes sense.

So um so I would look at the type of violation as well as whether it's a reoccurring.

So maybe looking at extending that to 24 or 36 months.

Um or not having it necessarily, but kind of having a history of their that particular place.

Um it is a little confusing around the tobacco, and uh I did talk to the DLL today about um the role of the all of you around tobacco licensing.

I was told you can deny or approve, but the follow-up, but uh that a town can give that have that, but the DLL will um kind of adhere to you all, but you all would be liable potentially.

Um, and then they told me just to adhere to what the town attorney said.

So it's a little wonky.

It used to just be the town, and no, it's like it's totally what happened was the town used to be, I think Hillary knows this, they used to use to have it, and maybe not when you were here, but um they town used to be able to approve them and they were getting the money.

And then the municipality took it, but then there was kind of like then the town had no idea who had tobacco.

So then they gave it back to the town to approve it or deny it, but it's very vague.

It's one of those like not interpreted very well.

And so it's kind of like even the DLL is just like talk to your attorney.

So I'm just letting you know they're not saying no, you have no you have no um authority to deny or approve.

What I was told today is you you can, but to follow your attorney.

So if your attorney town attorney is saying just let the state decide, just do that is what they were mentioning to me.

And I wish I had a better answer for you on that.

That said, if they do have a compliance failure for tobacco alcohol, reality to that is that um it's the same age back in the day, it was 18, not like back in the day, like four years ago.

It was 18 for tobacco, and now it's 21s federally.

So people would usually argue if they failed the tobacco um alcohol, they'd say, Oh, I looked at the tobacco birth date, right?

The date of the birth for that.

But now it's the same year.

So and one of the biggest failures for the people getting um trained is if you're born on December 31st of this year, you know, how old would you be?

So you know, people aren't as great at math, I guess, as they used to be, or maybe um, so we try to that's actually a important to know that that is a failure that usually happens probably towards the end of the year.

I know if the persons of that of the you know, approval.

So the other thing I wanted to share with you guys is uh we do have some great things that happen in Brattleboro.

You have had um you do have the encouragement of the alcohol and tobacco sales policy to have that posted.

It's not a requirement, but it is a recommendation.

Um I have provided those to um to people who have tobacco liquor um licenses, but it's not it's not a we used to require people's hat it's signed every year because it's like does it just get collect dust and it's like in somebody's drawer?

Um so that was a pain, and also because everything went to the portal, that was when that got taken off.

Um so now I have them again at that have I haven't been great at getting that to everybody.

I did mail it at one point, but we have new people, so now I'll have more time to provide that and encourage everybody to have it up.

Um you do have a self-assessment tool on your website as well for people to actually make sure um that they are kind of seeing how they're doing.

So I think this is really about training.

You know, this is you know, let's assume everybody has the best intentions, um, but they may not have the best practices.

Um that is available.

I also am getting a best practices checklist that I made for event planners looked at by the DLL to kind of like make sure that they also, if they're gonna have alcohol at their events, have a checklist that they look through.

Um also want to let people know about the DRAM Act, which is basically if somebody leaves your place of uh establishment or your home even and there's been alcohol and somebody gets in an accident that they that you are held liable.

I was at an event where there was a local licensed caterer and they were not carting, there were young people around.

Um it wasn't always attended.

I mean, he's at the table most of the time, but if you had to pee or something, like he there was nobody there.

Um there were people leaving intoxicated.

Um, and you know, this person hired them to um be responsible.

So I did talk to the DLL and they said, you know, you could file a complaint.

Um so just to be aware that if somebody's even having a private party, if they're hiring somebody to um that they should be doing adhering to what they would do at a bar or a restaurant.

Um so but that's just something I think we need to let people know um and to hold the a caterers accountable to as well.

And um back to the failed compliance checks, um, there is the online staff training, so you could require that that could be done anytime.

Um so you might want to make that a shorter period of time.

It's not gonna be as good as an on in person.

So I am talking to Jen about coming down, but she won't generally come down unless there's 10 or more people.

So if it's a bigger place that has a failure, like a restaurant, you might be able to get all their staff trained.

But if it's a gas station and they have four people working, that might not be the case.

So um, so I would love to kind of explore that a little bit more.

And uh we used to have trainings every like quarter.

Um so I am working with other coalitions right now um in the region to try to see if they can kind of encourage their towns as well who have had compliance failures to do a similar requirement.

So then we'd have enough staff people to be trained.

Um the other thing is for you all is there you should maybe want to do that online training just to understand what that, you know, what it looks like to be a seller or server.

It's pretty, you know, self um paced.

It's not that long.

Um and they have just updated it, which is really great.

There's also quarterly calls that um I have advocated for, and I'm really excited.

I'm sure I'm not the only one, but uh I knew I was, so they're gonna be starting in.

I told like wait until there's a new select board.

So that will be available to all town clerks and um liquor commissioners throughout the state, and that way you can hear from each other.

And so it's not just like a um hearing from them.

There's also a big training happening on March 11th for retailers mostly or licensees, but they will have some stuff around licensing that might be interesting.

So if one of you could go up there, I'll be there.

Um, I'll get whatever I can get.

But if one of you wanted to go, um that would be super.

Uh and then also she's open to I was asked, somebody mentioned that that there's a training for you all from the League of City and Towns and Cities, um, cities and towns, sorry.

It's late.

Um they're open to having a training then for a select board.

So if that's something you want to advocate for, they're definitely up for it, kind of getting put in as a part of that.

Um and it would just be condensed.

Obviously, you wouldn't need the whole thing.

Um she's also very happy.

Um again, this is John Fisher from the ELL to come down and do a uh just a QA with you all.

Um and again, that may be something to coordinate with other towns just to make it a little bit more um, you know, hardy.

So yeah, I can offer um technical assistance, I can offer best practices, um, especially around handling compliance failures.

I can provide resources to retailers.

Um I did add a little resource in here about by BY um bring your own booze, I guess is that what that beverages.

Booze, really, right?

Um BYOB.

Uh there is some information on that.

But this this link that I shared with you, which is from the Chairden uh Chittenden County planners has all of the stuff that it has all of it.

So you were asking about some of the other questions you had will probably be in there and a little bit easier to read than the lengthy you know legalese that you had earlier.

Um I would love to come back and talk about alcohol density.

Um because I think this town has a lot, and that would act to the ordinances that there is ordinances that can be put in place around how much is in one area or how much is a per capita.

Um so having 66 is what um establishments has always been high for a small community, um, even if you look at your surrounding towns is still a high percentage per capita per person.

Um so I'd love to come back with some of that data when we have the you know select board that's gonna be here for the root you know next round.

So I'm ready for any questions if anybody has anything.

Thank you for listening.

Well, I just wanted to thank you.

And it's just really nice to know that you're such a good resource for our community.

So thank you for that.

Thank you.

Um want to start on that.

And to be back on that, congrats on the uh grant that you got.

Thanks.

That's fantastic.

Yeah, I was interested in something that you shared with us around the frequency of calls to the police that were alcohol related.

Um because we talk a lot about the about opioids and fentanyl and the violence around that and the harm to our community.

But I was interested to hear more if you could share that with us verbally about the um the calls that are related to alcohol.

Yeah, so um that was actually an article that was in the commons, so hopefully it's accurate, but it was from uh Norma Um Chief Norma Hardy from back in 2024.

She had done her uh data from 2023, and that was a little pulled out what it says, well, alcohol leads to the uh the list of top five drugs included uh involved in incidents um investigated by the police with at that time it was uh 2023, 600 and 265 calls.

Um the all heroin crack, fentanyl, and cocaine was 334.

So um combined.

So that's just kind of a telling.

Uh and then that number ticked up in 2024 to 289 calls, and I have gotten the newer data, so that's like some of the data that I'll look into.

I'd also like to talk to the places like Women's Freedom Center and how much that has gotten been involved just to kind of get a good sense of how alcohol is kind of impacting um folks and you know, domestic violence or death, even you know, Vermont is probably one of the highest.

We're always highest for like binge drinking, um alcohol deaths per capita um as in Vermont as a state.

So we're a high-risk state when it comes to this particular substance, and that's why again, partly why we got this funding.

So I would I'm really excited to like dig into that and bring it back to you all and just to kind of get a better sense of what what's happening with data and what what can be done about it.

It's really helpful along with the presentation earlier by the town attorney and town clerk, just because I think a couple of us were asking a lot of questions, looking at these applications and thinking like you know, it's just helpful to understand where we could potentially make a difference.

Yeah, thank you.

Yeah.

I'm really, you know, this is like one of those things like, oh, we're this is I'm sure you're all like, oh, this is part of my job.

Like, so I that's why I'm really happy to be able to get any questions.

If you want to just direct them through me, um, I can get numbers, I can get um, you know, where the closest trainings are.

Um again, I usually check in and see if there's somebody who's violated getting more information on that.

If there's some issue with a place, um, I can make sure that somebody goes and checks it out um from the DLL, those investigators to come and look and see if somebody's over serving or overselling, um, selling outside of hours and like that.

Or if you're interested in doing ordinances, we can I can get you any kind of templates you want for hours or for alcohol density or any any of that.

I can provide you guys with all of that.

So um so that's part of my my funding is to help you all.

So I'm looking forward to working with you.

Uh other select board members like to come in.

Yeah, like what Cassandra, thank you so much for coming.

Um I'd love to go to one of these trainings.

I think that that would be really helpful.

Um yeah, I mean, the pr the prevention end, but also um how to help a retailer who may have fallen something got miss.

Something got confusing along the line, and then them being able to get up to speed so that they're they're able to be in compliance.

I think that's important.

I like I like how you balance that.

You're not pointing a finger, you're saying, hey, these are the rules.

Maybe you like we can help you with education to do better, especially on the carding and and really just reinforcing those rules is so important for the community.

I just wanted to be a reminder too that the carding and uh is a big issue, um, especially with the fake IDs.

So a lot of it is about conversation.

You know, if somebody kind of looks younger, it's like asking questions and it's not just like when were you born?

You know, it's kind of like so that's part of the training that they like you know in person is why it's so great, because they can kind of role play some of that.

Um refusal skills is a big thing.

So again, they can come and just even do a small like that instead of having to do the full training, they could just even do like two-hour training for for um retailer.

So that will be something I'll be doing is kind of like a retailer assessment for them to see kind of where they would like some support.

But that's generally kind of where they need to focus is how to card and how because it's basically even these fake IDs are getting through their machines and it's like they're they're harder.

So it's really about like the social interaction with the person to see if that's something that they can they can deny anybody.

Um and sometimes those long like Hannah Ferds or something has everybody needs to get carded.

I'm sure you've all had that experience where you're like really, and they're just like that's just our rules.

But they're you know, they that that might be helpful too for some places, just like we discard everyone, um, which I've seen in some places, which I'm always really happy about.

But um, yeah.

Yeah, and there's a variety, I mean, in different municipalities, it is stricter.

Being a student at UVM, I remember from my hometown, it was a it was a world of difference.

It was very difficult to, you know, even to obtain underage alcohol.

Um here, I think kids find way.

Um there's a lot of opportunities, and so I appreciate this training to make it so there's less opportunities and keeping people safe.

Yeah, and I hope like with the events too, is that starts to get looked at and encouraged to maybe consider if alcohol is necessary for some events because we've had a lot of we have a lot of events where alcohol has just become um just a norm.

And um that also with young people, it may not give them access in the sense that they might be not selling it to them, but um it's harder to mon monitor, like you know, if somebody, if there's just a kind of alcohol somewhere, um, and also just the normalization of it, like this assumption that every time there's a a community event, there's got to be alcohol.

We also have a high percentage of people in recovery or wanting to be in recovery.

Um they're at risk too when they're trying to be in their community and they're being shown something that is something they're trying to avoid.

So just you know, those are the kind of conversations I'm hoping to have with the community.

Um to yeah, see if it's even necessary to have alcohol there.

Oscar, do you have any comment?

Well, just looking forward to hearing more about this throughout the year.

But thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you for coming.

Yeah.

Yes, excuse me.

Thank you, Cassandra.

It's great.

And do we have any more comments for Hannah or or Hillary?

I just want to thank you all.

And uh we get to get out of here before nine o'clock.

Um I'll take one more motion.

Oh, thank you.

One more motion.

I'll motion.

I moved to adjourn.

Great.

All select board members in favor of adjournment.

Please raise your hand and say aye.

Hi.

There we go.

Thank you, Seth.

Thank you, BC TV.

Thank you, Hillary.