It is six o'clock.

Welcome to the mic on now.

Can you hear me?

Oh, great.

Yeah.

Amber, you move over.

Welcome to the City of Broken Air Drainage Advisory Committee meeting.

Ladies and gentlemen, we do not have quorum tonight.

We will not be able to have a meeting in which we can take action, but we do want to, because so many of you have taken time out of your schedule.

But there are several of you here that I believe want to either speak or hear about the issues that are on our agenda.

So with that said, um we will go ahead and call the meeting to order.

We'll do roll call, even though we know we don't have quorum, just so we have on record who is in attendance.

Can we do that?

Here can we change your name, please?

Yeah.

Oh, that's what this means.

Got it.

Wallace.

Here.

Parks.

Mason.

Here.

Thank you.

Uh we're gonna move past item three consideration of consent agenda.

And move right on to consideration.

Nope.

Move on to item five presentations.

We're gonna skip that.

We're gonna skip that one.

Let's just go to the six A.

We'll go to six A twenty-five-one five oh eight consideration discussion and possible action to recommend to council to expend funds for drainage design improvements in the Tucson Village 2 subdivision.

Again, just for clarification, there will be no possible action on this, but is there anybody who would like to speak on that issue?

We can have Pat actually give a presentation.

We'll get Pat if you want to go ahead and give an abbreviated presentation on that.

Yeah, very good.

You're running on informal.

So for the committee that is here and for the public, um, Tucson Village.

This is actually Tucson Village 2.

It is located south of Tucson Street and west of County Line Road.

The area in question that we're bringing before you is that box area that you see.

There is it's called a missing overland drainage swell.

We'll get to that as we move along.

Um here's the blow-up version of it.

Now you do see that there's floodplain even on some of these properties.

What I do want to point out is that in uh February of 21, a low marf was filed with FEMA and removed those due to the construction and the reshaping of the area.

FEMA did remove those from the floodplain.

The maps just haven't been updated yet.

Uh the subdivision was platted in 2021.

South of this subdivision is unincorporated Tulsa County.

The off-site has about 15 acres draining to it.

I'll explain the 15.

The ex engineering plans show 10.6.

The city did 15.

Based on just what maps was used.

So what the recommendation will be when this is presented to the full committee is for a design study to figure out how to address there was an overland, there was a drainage swell that was supposed to be constructed along that southern property line of all the houses that was not constructed in the um original construction of this site.

So just some pictures of the area.

Now I took these pictures here.

So what you're looking at is standing on that south property line looking towards the houses.

It looks nice and green.

This was after the spring rains, and the ground through there, I was sinking as I walked through.

It was that swampy and marshy.

So that's the picture on the right.

You're just looking down the fence line or down the property line.

This is pictures during some of the spring rains that we've had.

This it doesn't take much to get through here, so the yard does go.

The what you're seeing on the far right is the drainage that goes from the house or in between the houses out to the street.

There'll be some videos coming up in a little bit that will show that a little bit better.

But this is the backyard.

Now you will notice the fence.

That fence is blocking the drainage path.

There's an overland drainage easement from 60 feet from that south property line to the north, and then there's a utility easement that moves even farther.

Um so we'll show the videos now.

This video that you're looking at is right between the two houses, and that's one of the applicants actually walking through it.

You can see the depth on the boots.

Now this next one, pay attention.

Right there in the upper middle third of this, there's a little spring that's coming up, and then as it's coming down into along the property line there.

You can see it bubbling up there, and now it's zooming out, and you can see the standing water in the yards.

All that water that you see standing there sits until it's gone or slowly goes through the fence.

Um then or to the street, which is the next one you'll see it getting into the street, but you can see a little bit of flow going to the right.

This is one of the paths that it goes out.

Now, this those the 10 to 15 acres was not designed to get out to the street.

So this is going coming across the yards, crossing the sidewalk, and here you can see it's getting out into the street, carrying some of the sediment with it, and the system in the street was not designed to handle it.

This was originally designed to take the water all the way to the west, and I'll show you that in just a minute.

So I do have any questions up there, but we'll we'll take a look at that boxed area before we get into any questions.

All that water from the south flowing to the north is supposed to go west towards Broken Arrow Creek.

Broken Arrow Creek is just on the other side of this street right here, Broken Arrow Creek runs right through here, and now I'll show the audience.

Broken Arrow Creek is on this side of the street, it actually flows through here.

That and so it was supposed to flow through that drainage easement.

It was not constructed for some reason, and that I don't have an answer to as to why it wasn't.

I would like to bring to the attention that staff held a public meeting with the residents along Winston, which is the street that uh the red box is on, and we held that meeting on September 4th of 25.

Um, an informal meeting.

The majority of the uh property owners did show up, informed them that any drainage improvements that it would require approval of the property owners to move forward with this.

Everyone in attendance said that they were willing to work with us the city to help alleviate the drainage concerns in their backyards.

And again, one of the recommendations was to do a drainage stud to get design funds for this project.

Um much more information at this point.

Would you like me to share?

Are there any questions on this at this point, or would you like I'll leave that up to the chair?

I'm good.

Okay.

I'm just in shock that there's that the problem is that severe.

Yes, that's a great word.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Okay.

We'll take no action moving on.

Is there anybody here or once?

Is there anybody who would like to speak on this?

Great.

Uh moving on, item B 25-1123 consideration discussion and possible action to recommend to council to expend funds for drainage design improvements to a drainage channel located in the 6100 center commercial subdivision.

Again, there will be no possible action.

Patrick, would you are you, Mr.

Hall?

Yes.

Okay.

If it's okay with you, we'd like to hear from uh Mr.

Wilson first, and then I will absolutely give you an opportunity to speak.

So I I did realize I'm remiss.

I didn't introduce myself.

I know the ones on the up on the uh days know, but for those in the audience that don't, I'm Patrick Wilson, the stormwater division manager in the engineering and construction department for the city.

Okay, so the 6100 center.

The location of this is it's a commercial center, commercial industrial center, south of Albany Street and west of Olive.

And what you see on the bottom right, that's Floral Haven Cemetery.

So give you a proximate location of what we're looking at.

The area that is shaded red, there's a concrete line drainage channel, and I'll use the word concrete loosely.

You'll see why in just a moment.

Um as we're looking at this, there is an existing sanitary sewer to the east of this channel, and also overhead utility lines, which the pictures will show much better location.

So this channel, it was originally constructed in 1985, which was also platted in 1985.

The channel in and of itself is not in a drainage easement.

The existing channel, it's called a fabriform channel, which was done in the early 80s.

It was a new product at the time, maybe late 70s to mid-80s, and the idea was to put fabric down and then concrete, you pin the fabric and the concrete, it was all supposed to stay in place.

That doesn't work too well because it didn't hold up.

And here's pictures of what it looks like today.

Um fabriform channels throughout the entire country, there's a lot of them that are looking like this, and so there's repairs that need to happen.

What we are looking at is you see the utility poles on the upper right.

Now, for the audience, you see the utility poles on that.

Those utility poles are about 11 feet from top of bank.

Now, in between that top of bank and the utility pole is an eight-inch sanitary sewer.

It's about 10 to 15 feet deep, depending on the location.

So with there's a city utility.

Well, the other thing to know about this is the city does not have access to that line.

We have access, we could come through the far north side off of Albany.

We could come through different areas, but we have to travel that line through there.

So in order to get a decent access, there's no direct access.

We would either go through coordinate with Floral Haven to walk to go through their property to get to it, or coordinate with one of the property owners at 6100 center.

So one of the things as we move forward with this, we would also be asking for an easement access into our property.

The idea on the request on this was to look for design funds to help design the new channel here, and then as we move forward into construction to work on that, maybe get it find a good appropriate spot for that easement so we could access the system.

What the fabriform, what you could see is as water comes through, it starts separating that fabric and water comes underneath.

So that's the deterioration, and water is actually flowing underneath that in some areas based on these pictures.

And here's some more evidence.

You've got some erosion of what is happening in those areas.

Staff was going to recommend a uh expenditure for a drainage design improvements on these channels to help protect existing utilities.

Um I I believe that was that is the short version of the do you have something to add?

It's private property.

Yes.

Okay.

This is all private property.

Drainage easement.

There's no drainage easement.

The only easement the city has is directly on top of the sanitary sewer line.

Okay.

So there was no platted or separate instrument.

Correct.

Okay.

At least none that we found.

Which back in 1985, that may be in how things were done, we would not have done that today.

Right.

And 1985, just for a refresher of those that are here, and for those in the audience, the current design criteria for stormwater in Broken Arrow started in 1994.

That is so as you've got that gap in there of this before the design standards actually took effect.

And if I may, Madam Chair, as Pat said, in 1985, the fabriform, it's just concrete, and then when it cracks, it cracks horizontally, it shifts, water gets in behind it, uplifts it, it causes it to fall.

This was really a big product in the Tulsa area.

Tulsa had a lot of fabric form channels.

They've since replaced them.

So it was probably a eight to ten year period that a lot of those went in.

This just happened to be at that time frame.

So it's in bad shape.

So I I fully support when we can get a full quorum together of moving forward with the design to address this.

And there's no issue getting easement to do this, correct?

The individual require easement.

Yeah, the individual property owners will work with them to dedicate a drainage easement over the top of it.

And as Pat said, you can see in this picture.

If we had a problem in there today to go address the sanitary sewer, we'd have a really difficult time accessing it.

Most likely we'd try to come from floral haven, but we'd have to clear trees.

So now I'm on the city's gonna pay Florida Haven to clear trees to get in and work on it.

Down on the south end, which is at the bottom, that can kind of show that that's where the creek is.

That's that's a difficult area.

They're having a lot of erosion there.

So it needs a more comprehensive design solution that's easier to access.

Explain one other thing.

Every building you see on the west side of the red box, their sanitary sewer ties across that channel.

So that's a private sewer line tying into the uh city line.

So if they have a problem, they've got to go address it.

A plumber has to address it.

It's just like I said, probably wouldn't do this today, you know.

Looking forward 40 years, we probably would do something different.

But um the business owners in 6100 have dealt with this from day one, they've been great to work with.

Um they're looking for solutions as well.

Broken arrows always had that, had to take the position of it's private property.

There's nothing we can do until that 2018 bond that created this potential.

This is a great potential solution for everybody involved.

How many property owners are there?

Six, seven, one, two, three, four, kind of, five, six, seven, eight, probably eight to ten there.

Okay.

Yes.

Okay.

That's what I was doing was counting just as well.

There was a vacant lot, but I it may be built on now, but Mr.

Hall can address that.

Okay.

Thank you.

Mr.

Hall.

You have the floor.

Thank you.

That was a great summary and takes off five minutes of my talk.

Great.

Uh is there a way to get this projected onto the screen?

No.

Okay.

Well, you're the privileged group then, because you get the pictures.

Yeah, you saw some, and only some of what's gone wrong.

Yeah.

There's there's much more.

But this there's six pictures here, and starting at the upper left corner, uh Patrick touched on the erosion issue.

Now that that hole, I had to step back from to get the whole hole into one shot.

I was shooting over it, and there was really no perspective.

This is this is about three feet across, and that's behind this uh fabric form wall.

So it it gives you a pretty clear picture.

There's a lot of water getting back behind there because and it's not that it's come over the top.

What's happening is it's washing in through the bottom and the side walls, and the dirt goes away, so it collapses.

Yeah, that's what's going on.

Second picture on the top row to the right.

Uh I shot that just so you could see what happens to the bottom.

Okay, you've got constant water flow, uh sometimes three to four feet of water in that ditch.

So, any with pretty good velocity, you're gonna, if you get some underneath, you're gonna pop it up.

Well, that's what's going on right there.

Uh in the third picture, the upper right corner, there's a what is that a four or five foot chunk of wall and bottom, you know, that has now formed a little dam.

You know, it's actually impeding flow there.

Uh the other point Patrick also noted uh on the lower left, there's an incoming channel, and and we're a 20-acre tract, okay?

So we're draining through this channel 20 acres, but that little channel, if you look at the water flow over there, and I'm sure you have, but the water's coming from Commerce Crossing, a 10-acre development that's up on Albany, up on 61st, and goes all the way over to uh I'm sorry, 129th, but what do we call it?

Olive olive.

All it okay.

We use both.

I'm I wasn't born here, but I'm learning.

Um I was born close by.

So uh the point being you get down to the bottom third of this channel, it's not just water out of 6100 center that's coming through.

There's some from Floral Haven, and there's also uh I believe everything from Commerce Crossing.

So the the next one in the middle of his tough shot because I'm shooting through fence on the bottom row in the middle, again a rise.

You can actually see the the bottom has split some there in the middle.

And the final one I shot because it pretty clearly shows what happens when the bottom is destroyed, the side walls slide down.

When you lose the bottom of the channel, the side walls fall down.

So that's just for illustration.

Pictures worth a thousand words, you understand all that.

So here's here's some I believe factual information as close as I can get it.

Uh I'll blow through part of the 20 acres uh plus commerce crossing, which is another 10 plus part of Floral Haven.

So we may be actually draining uh 35, 40 acres of land through that bottom end of that channel.

Uh there are in 6100 center, there are 60 different owners.

Okay.

60.

Approximately 88 companies.

Now I say approximately, there's there's three uh there's three multi-there's actually more, but they're much smaller.

There's three or four multi-tenant properties there.

So some of the companies that are in on maybe an individual, maybe one or two people, because there are smaller warehouses along with the bigger buildings, but hundreds of employees, thousands of dollars each month in city stormwater fees, taxes, all those things, and I'm not talking about property taxes, right?

I'm talking about these 88 businesses selling and all that stuff.

Okay, uh we've covered all that.

Uh the drainage was constructed in 1985, 40 years old now, uh, and it looks its age, right?

The POA has done, I think, not perfect, but a pretty good job.

If you look at the shots Kenneth showed you and the shots I'm showing you, you don't see a bunch of timber, trees stuff in the channel that's gonna block it.

We've tried to keep it cleaned, and of course, that costs money.

You know, we paid now about 1,200 a year for them to go in and have appropriate spraying to kill the green vegetation, and there's there's some in the in there right now because it's been good growth here with all the rain, but uh we have tried to maintain the channel best we can, but it's fallen apart long and short of it.

Uh and I think I'd close uh I have one more here that's asking the same thing I'm gonna ask right now, and that is that the advisory committee seriously considered this.

Uh it's it is an important part of the commercial industrial base in the city of Broken Arrow, and all of the owners, owners raise your hand showed up, are requesting your consideration and hopefully inclusion in the bond issue.

So are do you have any questions of me?

I don't at all.

Great questions.

I know Kenneth knows this story real well.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I've lived it most of my career here.

Um like I said, I am very encouraged and positive that uh this 2018 bond program, Prop 6, can help here.

So uh look forward to having the quorum so we can address this properly.

Me too.

Um prior to that, it was it was very difficult.

So well, Kenneth came out and spoke with our board, which we greatly appreciate.

And Patrick has been very good at the communications to remind me and everybody else that tonight was the night.

So thank you very much.

Thank you.

I will echo your comments on uh both Patrick and Kenneth.

Broken Arrow is extremely lucky to have both of them.

Uh we need you just take that again when there's a quorum.

I would be happy to do that, absolutely.

Again, um we cannot take action on this item due to lack of quorum, but we will schedule a special meeting uh very soon, sooner than later because I don't want to go through um get through the holidays, and then we're dealing with oh, I can't be here because I've got green kids.

Um moving on item C 25-1527 consideration discussion and possible action to recommend to council to expend funds for design of drainage improvements and protection of existing city sewer trunk line at East Natchez Street and Lynn Lane, South 177th East Avenue, case number 25-019.

Do we have anybody here that is we had one?

Jerry is okay.

Patrick, if you'd like to give us an abbreviated presentation on that, and then thank you everybody for coming.

We appreciate it.

So the Natchez and 9th Street, just as far as a general location.

This is south of Jasper, 131st, on our way down to the uh City Broken Arrow Sanitary Sewer Treatment Plant.

It is far the farther south, closer to the river.

This is in between.

Um there's actually two items here that we're going to be talking about.

One on the left side, that where it says Natchez Street.

There's about 17 acres of what drain of area that flows across streets.

It it this is gonna go back to this was constructed in 1980, 1984, prior to design criteria, and all the standard practice at the time was the street was a conveyance of water, and you'll see that in the upcoming pictures and videos.

So that that's that's what we're looking at on that side.

On the other side is there's a pond embankment.

There's a manhole to a 60-inch sanitary sewer line.

Yes, you heard that correctly, 60 inch.

It is in the embankment of the applicant's pond, and that is his house that is right there.

Um a few years ago, when we read it, the city red the trunk line.

There was some work done on that embankment, and well, I'll get into that as I go through.

So, as you can see, here's the applicant's house.

Here's a close-up version of it.

Now I want to note something that applicant their house is not in a floodplain.

It is adjacent to a floodplain.

The property that the applicant's house is in is not into a floodplain, it's adjacent to the property that's in the floodplain.

The applicant does own both parcels, so that will that makes it easier as we move forward.

He does own the parcel on that that we're looking to do some work on.

Um, some of these pictures, these were taken this spring when we've had some heavy rains.

And some of these pictures I'm going to take a look at this was probably in June of this year when we had two and a half inches and 45 minutes.

That equates to the numbers aren't quite there, but you're really looking at about a 30 to a 40-year event.

So it's in between the 25 and the 50, but you that's what we're looking at.

So it the intensity of this was very intense.

We had an application come before the committee a few months ago on an area in Indian Springs where the street was flooded.

Same rain event.

This looks like it's the exact same rain event.

And oh, so the picture on the right, you could see those are some of the outlet structures from some of the construction pictures of the sanitary trunk line that I've seen.

There was a single pipe.

This was taken to at three pipes after we got done.

Outlet structure of the pond or outlet structure of the pond.

Thank you for that.

So the pictures here, these are also from the applicant from Stills.

Uh he took screenshots still of the video that's looking down into the pond on the left.

The middle is his house.

You can see where it looks like the water's jumping.

That's a berm.

That water's coming from Natchez Street.

So that it cross from Natchez crosses 9th and into his yard, hits that berm, which was constructed to divert the water.

We had a very intense rain event, and it jumped the berm.

The picture on the right, that's also in this, you can see it's an expansion of the one on the far left.

Now, there at the back end of the property where you see the flagpole, that that's a floodplain.

So that one I I expect to see standing water back there during certain events because that is actually in that floodplain boundary.

This picture, this picture is earlier.

Let's see, in let me get 2021, um, the city with a in conjunction with the uh drainage advisory committee did a case for the riprap.

This was out of the city's off of the city's culvert across 9th Street, Lynn Lane, 9th Street.

So this is the same culvert that came out.

The riprap didn't go too far, and it was causing some erosion issues.

And we went before the drainage advisory committee, secured funds, and the construction happened in 21.

That is what you're seeing here, but it is a good picture to show what is not when it's not flooded.

That that's that's what this picture is to show.

You got a couple of videos here.

The first one, as we look on it on the left, this is Natchez Street, and it'll pan towards the east.

And this is what I was saying and referring to, and I said the street is the conveyance.

Now I remember I said about 17 acres from the golf course and from the upstream subdivisions that were built in 1980 and 84 respectively.

This you're looking at the golf course right here from best from what I could tell, and as it's panning through, this is Natchez Street.

That's quite a volume of water.

So what we're looking at, staff was going to recommend to the committee for the expenditure of design funds for looking at let's see, get there we go, for looking at capturing water there along eighth, or not eighth, ninth and Natchez, and trying to help alleviate and get that into the creek prior to crossing the road.

Um you have a term that we use for event like that is called a micro burst.

When you have a micro burst and jump two and a half inches in 45 minutes, m almost all of our systems in this area were overwhelmed and looked like those pictures.

So that that's there, but if we can help mitigate on the majority of the events, that's what we would do.

And then the other thing that the uh design funds would be for is to analyze the outlet structure and to help on that to make sure that it is correctly handling the flow as it's coming through that channel and as a protection to our sanitary sewer system.

Okay.

Any questions of me at this time?

Just how are you gonna do that?

Great question.

Um I'm I mean, I'm looking at a hard right turn for all of that flow off of Natchez onto 9th.

How are you gonna make that happen?

So what we would look at doing, and I'm going to come is and that's why we're also hiring a design engineer.

We're gonna look at it, but some of the ideas staff has uh looked at is trying to make a collection point on the west side of 9th Street, and then maybe pipe it to there's a concrete line channel.

Um, there's a couple different options.

So for the audience, collect it on the west side and pipe it to the there's a concrete line channel here.

Now I have in the past, I have spoke with this landowner here, and I will this landowner here.

Point on the west side of 9th Street and then may pipe it to there's a concrete line channel there's a couple different options so for the audience collect it on the west side and pipe it to the there's a concrete line channel here now I have in the past I have spoke with this landowner here and I will this landowner here so that that way I've spoken with her as well and it's been a few years but again with this was private property there was some other concerns and at that time she was willing to work with the city as well so there's different things that we can do in the city right away maybe into her property to help get as much captured as possible also putting maybe an inlet in you know maybe one on in the grass to help pick up any in the ditch that there's a I'm using that term loosely along ninth street and also an inlet in the street to pick it up we've done other projects where we've done greats across the street actually there's a drainage advisory committee project um about 2001 2002 that we actually did something very similar we put a grate across the street and it has worked really well to this day so there's different solutions out there and it's just going to take some time and some engineering to figure out the best solution to help mitigate this problem again we're not gonna be able to solve the problem but we could we'll be able to mitigate this as much as possible that during normal rain events that it this won't happen now during the heavier rain events the anticipation would be that the it would be less of an issue okay thank you and with that I think that's all we have Jerry is Mr.

Will no you're right this year Mr.

Wilkins please come forward if you'd like to speak I I think you did a I think you did a wonderful job situation we spent a lot of time together um I think we're all on the same page I just would appreciate anything that the committee would look at as it relates to obviously I I've got a home a nice home that I built here and I'm beautiful protect that for for me and my family there's been some sleepless nights when some of the big rains come and come out in front of our door so I think we're we I think we I think we have talked about some solutions that hopefully we'll be able to um allow us to sleep a little better at night and uh I appreciate uh both these gentlemen here that they've done great thank you um keep me in the loop on everything so great well I appreciate you being here again we apologize for not having quorum and being unable to take action on any of these items but we will um do our best to get the meeting of this board rescheduled um very quickly so we can move forward before we get into the holiday season and if I may you may so our intent would be to look at our schedules and see if we meet once a quarter on the last Monday of the month or that quarter.

So we will try to find another Monday night as quickly as we can before Thanksgiving if we can't do Monday we'll we'll look at our schedules we will make sure that we coordinate with with you Mr.

Hall and then you can uh coordinate with the property owners perfect Jerry will coordinate with you as well um and we'll get something set up just as soon as we can we do apologize something unforeseen but um still through the presentations I think there's a a lot of information here that we can move forward as soon as we get a another date set and it'll be a special meeting so yes yes sir ask a question yeah um would it would there be any benefit to documenting at least the property owners that are here in case that there's any part of the committee that we'll we can do a sign in sheet if you'd like sure yeah yeah we have no problem with that any benefit to that sure sure just gonna make me feel better about it there's a piece of paper so after we're done here I'll have this paper up here and you guys can uh put your name and if you would an email address and then I can get out the information to have a record of the absolutely great thank you thank you and we'll just include that in the presentation we'll include that as uh who all was present at the first one that's why I wanted to go ahead and give you guys an opportunity to to be heard and um that way you know we are recording this the missing members would have the opportunity if you can't make the next meeting that's why I wanted you to have an opportunity to be heard tonight even though it's an informal meeting we can't take action I didn't want you to make a wasted trip and then not be able to appear at the next meeting so the more information we have the better decisions that we can make so that's really what we wanted to do tonight so with that we can't take any action so we are adjourned.

We can close informal meeting we're closing the informal meeting thank thank you very much I'll say it's kind of hard