Welcome to the Finance Utilities and Rules Committee Committee meeting for Wednesday, May 13th.

We will call the meeting to order at 5 32 p.m.

We have two items on our agenda.

Both are uh vacation of right-of-way regarding the Prescinium 3 project ordinance D-28 15-26 and ordinance 28-16-26.

Today our focus will be reviewing uh the changes to the uh changes to these uh projects related to the structure of the TIFF financing and components of the project.

We have Henry uh Director Henry Mistetsky here that has a presentation to review uh the overall changes.

So uh if the committee's okay, uh we will turn it over to Henry to present.

Um thank you, uh committee chair uh Taylor Henry Mistetsky, um Carnal Redevelopment Director.

This is a uh Presidium 3.

This is the last action item related to the Persinium 3 project in front of City Council.

This was introduced on a previous Monday.

This had already been um looked at in land use committee and was voted back to council with the positive 4.0 recommendation.

So I'm hoping just to kind of quickly go through the kind of similar presentation from last time and hit some of the points that were the conversation topics and land use that I thought would be helpful here.

Um as a starting point, I do have the slide that the council had looked at when uh initially approving the bonds for this deal, and so I wanted to just very carefully go through the specific changes.

The what used to be 63,000 square feet of an office building with dedicated 15,000 square feet of retail space has become a 100,000 square foot office building with obviously a first floor plate that could become retail just the same.

There's also the same hotel that was there before with a 5,000 square foot dedicated restaurant.

The multifamily units, there are now 154 of them, where previously we discussed 150 to 160.

There are 26 H targeted units on the top floor of the project, where previously we discussed 30 to 40, and I'll get into that in just a little bit.

There are fewer parking spaces than before, and I would like to spend some time talking about the parking chart.

And generally the finances of the project change in that the TIFF bond amount is the same, but the TIFF split goes from 95-5 developer city to 100%.

So this is the view looking north on rangeline of the hotel and the office building.

There's another view with the multi-family, and I'll point this out a couple times.

The this the stair tower that also serves uh as a public observation deck over the Japanese garden is uh pretty visible here in the center.

This view, or really this view, also highlights the kind of the inarful in artful way that I initially at city council described the retail space where I said no more 15,000 square feet of retail space.

So what you actually see in this picture is a 5,000 square foot restaurant there on the left, and the right is just an office floor plate on the office building.

So in this image, there's a restaurant user there in the office building.

So to say that there's no retail is really a mistake on my part because any amount of that first floor could just as easily become retail when the market calls for it.

This is the view of the project from the veterans way side.

So this does a good job of showing how Veterans Way is the entrance to the parking garage.

When you're on the rangeline side, you come in at plaza level.

I'll have another depiction here in a second that shows that.

Um this also really shows how you can go from the garage through the covered walkway into the first floor of the hotel that also is uh looking over uh over veterans there.

There's another shot of someone going to the hotel front lobby, can also walk under the under cover of the the deck so they don't get rained on straight to the parking garage or straight to that elevator tower that also serves as the focal point of uh movement circular uh human circulation throughout that project, but also creates a that's a public viewing deck there at the top.

As discussed at uh city council previously, the parking pack fees are intended to go into essentially these public decks on top of the garage that face veterans way.

That was a heavy discussion at land use.

So what you're seeing on the left is the kind of the podium level.

So you can turn into that from range line.

You can see parking spaces around the office building.

Again, that's apartments top left, office building top right, hotel at the bottom.

So you really see at a podium level, we're maximizing the parking as much as possible.

And then you can see there on the image on the right, that's the parking level.

So you can see as much parking as we're able to fit into the garage we we have, and then you can kind of see the the walkway that's on the same kind of level as the garage that takes you straight into the lobby of the hotel.

So that's all on the same same level.

This is um might be slightly tough to see, but I thought it was a very useful conversation at land use, and if everyone's okay, I'm just gonna go through this chart.

This is the parking chart for the Presidium 3 project.

So I'll just kind of give a uh I'll go from the top down, kind of give a lay of the land.

Uh the the very top graph basically explains the kind of users uses that we have here, and uh because that gets used for essentially parking ratio calculations.

So we even though it's 154 apartment units, we are doing a count based on uh space per bed.

So we have a 221 total beds, about a hundred thousand square feet of office, about a six thousand square foot restaurant uh related to the hotel.

And you can see there's 372 spaces underground, 68 on top of the deck for 440 total.

So the the way to think about this project, big picture is look, there's a hundred thousand square foot office building.

So we know that the people parking in the office building aren't going to be there in the evening and at night, and we're always gonna have extra spaces in the evening and at night.

And the real question you got to ask yourself is what kind of parking load is happening really at the busiest time on this project, which is lunch.

So if we go to the use, this is the third table there that you can see.

You can see that we're giving uh apartments a one space per bed count, but at different times of the day, we're making assumptions about the utilization of those spaces.

I think it's most important to talk about the peak utilization from 10 a.m.

to 2 p.m.

So I'll just if everyone's okay with that, I'll just go by that line by line.

So from 10 a.m.

to 2 p.m.

We're assuming that out of 221 beds in the apartments that between 10 and 2, 35% of the residents are there.

We're assuming that between 10 and 2 in the office building, 85% of those office users are there.

Uh we're making a 75% assumption for the restaurant at that time.

We're making a 50% of the hotel keys assumption for the uh for the hotel.

And in all cases, even though this is a 80% open to the public first come first serve hotel, as far as parking spaces go.

In all cases, this garage has been upsized to have 20 extra spaces for city parking and city vehicles.

Now, those aren't going to be signed as city vehicles, but this garage and the parking calculations throughout did get upsized to account for those city vehicles.

So we're looking at two two most important times are well, what's going on with most of the apartment dwellers coming back after 6 p.m.

Again, there's an empty office building there, a giant empty office building.

That's how you know the next time there's a gazebo concert.

This garage is always going to have a bunch of empty spaces in the evening or on the weekends because of the giant office building.

And the real question is what kind of stress is the parking garage having during this 10 and 2 moment.

So all in it shows that we have plenty of uh utilization.

I I want to draw attention to a couple things.

Um, and we do have uh the developer here, Tony Burkla uh with us.

Um, but we we did get into this conversation for a moment at land use that I thought was helpful.

Twenty six units on the top floor are age restricted.

A majority of those are two bedroom units.

Um sorry, all of those are two bedroom units.

So for parking counts, we're counting two cars per each of those units.

We know from conversations about other uh other age-restricted um uh developments in this city and other cities that a majority of the time that age restricted unit is going to be filled by a uh a single female with one vehicle a majority of the time.

So even in these counts, there's a lot of conservative estimates going in to these counts.

Like we're counting two cars per every age targeted unit, they're probably only gonna have one car.

That that's what the data shows.

So in all, this shows that this parking garage is sufficient to park this project and provide some additional overflow parking for city vehicles.

Um the one uh two more things I wanted to show.

This might not be perfectly clear, but it's a small slide, but this is again the podium level, and so if you can kind of see my mouse, this is your entrance into the elevator tower, stair tower from the podium level that has a fully ADA accessible walkway through the loges into all the public spaces.

So obviously the quickest way for everyone to get to the public spaces is through the stair, the giant stairs, but it is also a fully ADA accessible.

Um if council is comfortable, you you have uh with with me kind of explaining what the two things for your vote in front of you today are.

So uh earlier uh last year we took this project to city council, asked for bond approval, knowing that we would be coming back to put in the city parcel as a contribution to this project.

So council approved bonds, and now we're back here for the contribution of the parcel.

So before we could contribute the city parcel, the city, the CRC needed to um protect the city.

So what you're voting on today is a vacation that essentially splits this land called city parcel land into three different things.

One of them is the northern half of this central rectangle.

Once vacated, it will join this private parcel, and the two other pieces that's uh this this box right here.

The second part is the southern half of this rectangle that will join this option parcel that's a CRC parcel.

That's this southern part right here, and then the third is this leg on the left that will that's depicted right here that will also join this option parcel.

The option parcel is owned by a city entity.

The development parcel is not.

So the city's task is is twofold.

We need to put the developer in a position where they're ready to sign a construction loan.

For them to do that, they need to have the land.

So this puts the land into the project.

At the same time, the city needs to be protected if the project ever doesn't move forward, it needs to get its land back.

The reason this took so long is that we got this land surveyed, the bottom parcels go to a city bar parcel, the top portion goes to a private parcel with the CRC's option to get it back for nothing if the project doesn't move forward.

So we're back a year later because we needed to put in place the clawbacks and the protections for the city if this project doesn't move forward, and now they're in place, and I have a memo of this option recorded on the land.

There are no mortgages, there's no other liens, I'm the first lien.

This protects the city and now allows the council, if the council is willing to support this project to take kind of the final step, which is this vacation.

Um that's uh kind of a broad summary, counselor.

Uh, and I'm happy to have um Mr.

Brooklyn come up, answer any questions.

I'm also happy to answer any questions or get into any of this with more detail.

Can I make a couple comments, please?

First of all, sorry for being late.

Um the good news is I do live in Carmel.

I live across the street, and uh I thought the meeting was at six, so my apologies for being a little late.

So I may repeat uh a couple things Henry said.

Um I've heard a couple council members say that this project is completely different than the project that was presented to you a year ago.

And I just wanted to highlight a couple things.

Uh, first and foremost, the hotel.

The hotel is a key component to this project.

Um last year we did not have a flag.

We were looking for a flag.

We now have a flag.

It's a true five-star hotel.

It's a Hilton tapestry.

125 rooms, which is exactly the same number of rooms that we had last year.

The only difference is this hotel now has a spa conference center and a restaurant.

Whereas the previous hotel, we were looking at just kind of a hotel lobby bar.

So this has a true five-star hotel feel.

On the apartment side, a year ago, we presented about 130 unrestricted residential units and about 20, 25, 30 age-restricted units.

That's exactly what we have here.

The age-restricted units was condensed a little bit because last year we had ones one bedrooms and studios, and what we learned in this market for fit five 55 and older is they want two bedrooms.

So all of our units now are two bedrooms.

The other thing that's different on this project is we put them as the penthouse units, the premium units on the project.

So that's a unique thing.

Oh, and I'm sorry, and then the biggest difference.

So we can go up to 25,000 square foot of retail as we market that space.

The building that you see here now is a much more traditional architectural done by Studio M here, local architects, that complements this building here, being so close.

And I I appreciate the architecture, and I'm proud of what we've presented here.

The other major component is we took the hotel entrance from rangeline down to veterans.

And the now the portico share on the hotel entrance, you can see right here is directly across from this beautiful Japanese pond that that we have.

And this is going to be a major uh destination for anybody coming to visit Carmel at a five-star hotel directly across from the Japanese garden.

One thing I I want to really focus on.

Most of the projects that have apartment projects, or most of the apartment projects here in the city are 200 and plus units.

We like to think that we're more boutique so that we can concentrate our efforts to a more targeted audience.

So this will be the first, and I've I've researched this, and I don't know if anybody can uh uh say that there's someone else.

There is not one project in the state of Indiana that takes an apartment project, combines it with a five-star hotel, shares all the amenities, the spa, the pool, the fitness, and combines that into one development.

This will be the first of its kind, which gives us a total um advantage both on the uh 55 and older and the residential units to share a five-star hotel with the residential component.

We're super proud of that.

That means if we have restaurant service, hotel service to the residents, to the hotels, it's the first of its kind.

We're very proud of that.

Um, I I so I developed Prescentium One.

Um I I leased up Prescentium One with the retail.

Um I developed Prescinium 2, and I've been in the process of leasing that up, and we are we are leased now, which is awesome.

Um, but the biggest kickback that we get from restaurants and retail is not the daytime traffic, it's the nighttime traffic.

So the multifamily is a major component to the overall development to bring that nighttime traffic.

As I said, I don't like telling people where I live, but I I live in the center penthouse at Overture, um, Prescentium 2.

So I look over that roundabout.

I see Prescenium One, I see Kroger, I see what we are proposing here, and we need that nighttime traffic, both for the hotel and the residential.

The uh the 100,000 square feet of res uh office, we've got multiple LOIs circular around on that, bringing both uh outside um office that we don't have here in Carmel now, and we're excited about that.

So I believe that the architecture and the design is so much better than what we did before.

Um and the project from a use perspective is only different from the perspective of the office.

We've added about 20,000 square feet of of retail and office because we see the demand.

Um we hear it, we see it, and we've hired some of the best office brokers in Indianapolis to bring that to Carmel.

So if you have any questions, I'm happy to answer those.

Committee will open it up for questions.

Council uh councillor Green.

Yeah, thanks uh uh counselor Taylor.

Um yeah, during the land use, um, we spent you know, it was about a full hour, um, and a lot of the conversation was about parking um and the impact of parking.

And uh and can you go uh Henry to the the slide about on the parking, you got the number breakdown.

There you go.

Um yeah, so that's kind of interesting point, and then um I don't know if you guys brought that up, but that was an interesting point.

Um for the age restricted, you know, increasing the size, going to two bedroom because that's what the market dig dictates.

So um, you know, and and the demographic information probably makes sense, you know, uh disproportionally probably um older female private with one car.

Um now, but one of the things I think that we were, and I can't remember the specific discussion in land use, but lots of discussion about the parking.

Um, you know, the aside from the age restricted the unage restricted um apartments, one space and one bed, so the assumption is generally one person, one car, or would it be two people on the bed, two cars?

No, no, I mean they're they're they're assuming that if a place has two bedrooms that there's a car for each bed.

Um I think anecdotally, that's not a word.

I think we can all I think we all know people that rent two bedrooms apartments with a bedroom in one and the office in the other.

Yeah, and it's still one car.

So to me, when someone is doing the ratio based on beds and not just a blanket number for just apartments, I think that's a better ratio.

Uh the other point, and I'm sorry if you were about to say this.

We also at land use discussed what it means to have hotel parking for a like a five-star hotel or a four-star, like an upscale hotel versus like an extended stay hotel.

We know that most people are gonna Uber to this uh high-end hotel.

And so the higher end of the hotel, the naturally there are um less overnight cars just by the nature of the kind of product that it is.

Councilor Minor.

I've got up on that.

Thank you so much for the presentation.

Really appreciate it.

Um couple things.

Uh the parking on veteran or the the parcel that you're vacating.

Can you show me um on a map an overview of how much of that land is being taken up by the project?

I I just can't seem to visualize it in my head, and I don't can you show me that specifically?

Yes, Counselor.

This is this is probably the this image probably does it best.

Um I counted about 45 spaces out there, but I think anytime you go out there, especially now, there's probably five or six cars.

Oh, this reminds me of another item that we discussed related to parking.

You know, this drive and the city hall parking lot was built when the city hall serviced the courts and the clerk's office.

And then the city moved the clerks and the court operations to a different building and built them their own parking garage.

So the load for the city hall is just not what it was when this was all initially designed.

Um that being said, this project is always gonna have 20 extra spaces for city vehicles within the kind of the the parking chart.

Plus, while almost every other garage we have a 75% open to the public first come, first serve, this one will be 80%.

So that gives even greater cushion.

So I will every gazebo concert, I will be parking in this garage.

It will be great.

Uh so to follow up with that, I I don't remember you giving us a reason why the parking numbers went down.

Was there a reason for that specifically?

Yep.

This this probably shows it well.

So yes, absolutely.

So the the plan that we showed a year ago.

We did not survey the property.

We did not survey utilities.

So this plan, we looked at the utilities along range line.

And to do the other plan, it would have cost us a couple million dollars just to relocate those utilities.

So we brought the eastern edge back in a little bit.

We created a much more uh efficient garage, and then more importantly on the hotel, because it has the pool, we put that on grade.

So what we're doing is we're taking the dirt and we're filling in where the hotel is so that we can put a pool and then the hotel facility on grade, and so that reduced our parking by a little bit.

Um all I do is mixed use.

This parking plan is very similar to proscenium one, where we've been very, very successful, and it's very similar to proscenium two.

Um obviously this is a very expensive garage, probably the most expensive per space because it's below grade and it's a podium, it's not a tilt-up garage, as you probably know.

Garages are ugly, but this one you will not know it's there.

All the buildings are on top with the exception of the of the hotel.

But by looking at the utilities, not wasting money to relocate utilities on an expensive garage, that's one of the major reasons why we've reduced the parking just by a slight amount.

Excuse me, I appreciate that.

And yeah, go ahead.

Sorry.

Um you wouldn't know the garage is there, except for those giant public parking signs that we'll put all over the project so people will know that it's free public parking.

Let me let me make one more comment.

So I was at the Japanese Spring Fest, and I want to make sure that um everybody understands that the north end entrance and the south end entrance can be outside of the bollards, so that the public space for events can still be non-vehicular.

Um we have the ability to shut down the north end and allow the south end to still access while the hotel um valet area can be accessed, and you could shut down the whole northern section and still allow Carmelfest and things like we saw a couple weeks ago.

And so a couple weeks ago, we could have had 200 cars parking here in addition to percentage one, and and we saw the traffic, obviously.

So I just wanted to highlight that that this does not require us shutting down the ability to have City Hall's parking lot for major events then um I know that uh at our council meeting uh councillor Schneider had asked for uh some bond information.

Does anybody re recall exactly what he said?

He was asking for something specific.

And that we haven't received it.

I I I believe I still owe you that answer or if basically we checked with bond council Barnes and Thornberg and Bond Council said the bond amount is the same, so there are no changes to the bond documents.

Remember that uh when projects happen and we discuss a TIFF split under state law, the it is the council that passes the bond ordinance, it is the redevelopment commission that plu that passes a TIFF pledge resolution where that actual TIFF split actually is named or is actually written in.

And so long as we discuss that this is moving from 95 to 100, and that's said, then nothing further on the bonds needs to happen so long as you approve the vacation.

Um Brad's been busy with the refunding, but I need I will follow up with him because I asked him to send me that by email, but that's essentially the case.

Thank you.

Councilor Royal.

Okay, thank you, uh Mr.

Chairman.

Um can you tell me how the valet will work for the hotel, where the where the valley is, how um how is it accessed, how many spaces, and the reason I ask the question is because a five-star hotel, yes, there is um Uber, but as we know from the Carmichael, there's also a tremendous demand on valet, and it was one of those things that had to evolve over time.

So I'd like to understand that.

That's my first question.

Obviously, Japanese gardens to the to the left, and then the portage share is to the right.

From the portica share has a direct entrance into the garage.

And so that's where the valet would start.

It would start from underneath the portachare, go into the garage, and then there's spaces.

They won't be dedicated spaces for valet.

They would just be in the garage in general.

And so the garage is where the valet park would be, and then there's an exit coming out of the garage.

So that's where all the valet would be.

So I'm hearing there will not be a whole bunch of little signs with um spaces reserved for valet.

Yeah, no.

In fact, so I own a few garages.

Um reserving spaces makes it very difficult to keep the rotation of the parking.

And so there won't be valet spaces, but they will be in the garage.

Um not dedicated, but within the garage.

Okay.

I I think that's great.

That's actually a better answer than what I thought I was going to get.

Um, and then just a quick comment about um uh Director Misteski's comment about the big parking signs.

I remember that in P uh proscenium one, parking was hard to find in the beginning.

So are we doing something different, or did we learn or um you know what would how will people know that there's parking and where to find it?

Yeah, no, you you're absolutely right.

Um because we hid the parking underground, it's hard to find.

Right.

And so wayfinding is super important, especially on the plaza level.

One thing that um I don't know if Henry has a picture of this.

We did a much better job on the surface level parking, specifically for the office.

Office um guests don't want to go in the garage.

They want to be up near the front door.

And so we did a nice job, I think, on creating a much better parking scenario on the podium for those guests of the office.

And then we will do a much better job on wayfinding.

So you can see it here down the middle stretch.

That is a very unique way.

It's a one-way down, one way back, creating these these pull-in parking spaces, and we've got a much better scenario of parking on the surface level than we had at Prescenium One.

We didn't have very many parking spaces up there.

That's where all the parking um got tight.

Um, and then what we will do is a much better job on wayfinding to get people from here down and around to veterans.

It is a challenge.

I'm not gonna I'm not gonna uh lie to you on that.

We have to do a much better job on on signage and wayfinding to get people down and around.

The local traffic gets it.

The people who come once or twice, they can't figure it out.

Right.

That's the big thing.

And and if you're gonna have a restaurant, um, I know for 101, that was a challenge for them for not just a couple of months, but for a couple of years.

So maybe still is, I don't know.

Um, and then I think when you go from 95 percent TIFF to 100 percent TIFF, that's a trigger that um uh a negative trigger for some people.

I haven't really I I think I know, but I haven't heard it expressed why that change is being made.

I'd like to hear you for the record inform our community why this project now needs a hundred percent of the TIFF instead of ninety-five.

And then I just have one other comment.

No, absolutely.

Um it's pretty simple.

Um the change in the law for for residential um and creating those those values coming in to help support the TIFF is one of those those reasons.

The other thing that uh that we tried to do is to fill the gap is adding more office so that those two things, my garage costs did not go down.

When I talk about um changing the garage to not move utilities, those were just costs above and beyond.

These are spaces that are almost 40,000 of space.

And so to be able to create the number of spaces that we need, both for the the city um to fill in the gap of some of the spaces we're leaving or we're vacating, um, and to fill the gap for for the rest of the project, that's the reason um we went from 95 to 100 um is to help fill that gap of a 15, 16, 17 million dollar garage.

Uh could you put a dollar value on that?

I I don't have the other screen up.

Was that what what's that 5% worth?

I'm sorry, I don't I don't have an answer on the top of my own.

Let's uh for council when we talk about this.

I'd like to have that number.

Absolutely.

And then so um so for me, you know uh where there's a couple of things happening with this.

Oh, did you want to say something, Henry?

I'm sorry.

Yes, just because uh I don't want to confuse people that are watching or not familiar with some of these things.

The state passed a law that dropped the future taxes that multifamily is gonna pay by about 30 percent in the future.

36 percent through 2031.

How many cents?

That's perfect.

That's perfect.

So the curage costs the same, but there is less money coming off the project to fill the gap.

So the developer isn't getting more money.

The the bond amount hasn't changed.

There's no extra money going to the developer.

This extra 5% is just allowing the developer to capture some of the hit from the change in the state law.

Well, yeah, you're and I would that's what I was starting to say is uh for me, you know, we use the TIF in order to incentivize the project in order to get a public parking garage near our city hall and near an entertainment area.

We are getting what I think is a pretty cool um asset in this tower, uh whatever we're gonna call the the stair tower uh overlooking a Japanese garden.

I like that a lot, that's very unique.

I think that will be an attraction that people I I think you'll start to see that on um in paintings and um as an icon for Carmel.

And maybe we should really consider that as we look at how the top is finished out just to make sure it's as unique as it can possibly be.

That would just be my comment.

Uh a hotel, but the most important thing for me, hundred thousand square feet of office space.

That is uh, you know, everywhere I go, there are not only existing, which I know Counselor Taylor brought up that concern, and I I I acknowledge that and share that with you, but um you know it this new style of office space that keeps us current and competitive and actually um attracts new as well as existing uh business taxpayers, I think is is hugely hugely important to us.

I don't know if Hugely's a word.

So I I just want to say I think this is a great project, and I do want to just uh kind of remember that we took a chance.

I don't know if Tony uh Councillor Green was on the council for proscenium one, huge risk, unknown developer to us, um crazy site, not a great site, terrible eyesore, um a lot of challenges, the Duke Energy, whole that whole fiasco.

Uh we we got proscenium one, we then went ahead and did proscinium two for the public that might be watching this as an opportunity, same developer for proscenium three.

Henry, would you mind just um you know, pass or fail?

How how is proscenium one and proscenium two gone?

And I and I didn't call you ahead of time to tell you I was gonna make that comment, so you're not prepared, but have we received what we thought we were gonna get, and has it been a benefit to our community?

Yes and yes.

But you're gonna have to do better than that.

Um you want to talk for an hour.

Yeah.

Uh all right.

I'm I'm just gonna let's just get real nerdy here because it's my favorite thing to get nerdy about.

So let's just do it.

I've shown this before to people.

This is a sys value per acre map of the city.

So proscinium one delivered vibrancy and walkability and something to do in the evening for people and created a place where that used to be a uh warehouse filled with asbestos.

Also, they sold party equipment, but before that, that was like a tool and die shop.

Um this is a map of assessed value per acre.

So what you see in yellow and red is about half a million to a million and a half of assessed value per acre.

And what you see in blue is about fifty million dollars of assessed value per acre.

And one of the reasons I love this map so much is because us Carmel people, we recognize these landmarks.

So let me just do this for you.

This is the Kroger parking lot.

This parcel is the gas station by the Kroger parking lot.

It's on its own parcel, it's got a bit more density to it.

That's why it's assessed that is slightly higher.

And then this monstrosity of tax paying right here is the proscenium with a giant office building in the corner valued at a huge amounts of money.

million dollars of assessed value per acre and one of the reasons I love this map so much is because us Carmel people we recognize these landmarks so let me just do this for you this is the Kroger parking lot this parcel is the gas station by the Kroger parking lot it's on its own parcel it's got a bit more density to it that's why it's assessed that is slightly higher and then this monstrosity of tax paying right here is the proscenium with a giant office building in the corner valued at a huge amounts of money those are the apartment buildings above it and then we can all tell that this is the condo building right here because it's a bunch of individual ownerships of these super expensive things that pay a whole bunch of money so if I'm concerned about what is the city going to be like in the future from a financial standpoint do we have taxpaying entities that support all of us this is what is delivered by the market when Kroger builds a parking lot and this is the kind of tax paying piggy bank that exists when projects like the proscinium happen.

There's the prosinium too by the way that's that's huge tax paying stuff.

So now we're talking about the next little set of and you can tell what these are this is a sorority so that's why they're valued at what they're valued right this these are the little houses that have been torn down and they're value it's tiny and so apart from vibrancy apart from daytime and nighttime activity apart from free garage parking for our citizens we're building a piggy bank that's gonna remember if you have a house on the east or the west side you share a burden in the taxes we pay and every time a giant development pops up in the middle worth 130 million dollars it reduces the burden paid by our single family residents and that is just as important as the vibrancy that you'll see when you pull up there tonight at Persinium.

Thank you thank you very much thank you Mr.

Chairman ohcinium also was the winner of a monumental award by the Indy Chamber just so everyone knows.

Thank you Mr Chair for allowing me one more one more bite at the apple here.

Just I just want to go back to the parking again because I I recognize that you said it's all going to go underneath into the parking garage but it is going to be a private parking garage and the parking spaces that are that you showed that the podium spaces you're a hundred percent sure that they're not going to as I just want to make it very clear on the record because I agree with what Jeff is saying that those parking spots at six o'clock are not going to all have signs in them that say nobody can park there whatsoever.

The developer will get to set aside 20% of the public and sign them however the developer likes and so I'm not sure today if it's going to be the top deck or at the bottom but 20% is all they get.

Okay.

And can you go back to the parking ratio?

Let me just add one thing to that sure the 20% will generally be delivered to the corporate executives they need that parking before they make a commitment so okay and then the the other thing I'd like to add just one last thing Jeff asked the question about vibrancy and what what did you bring to the city of Carmel with the proscenium one and proscenium two.

And I happen to be in St.

Louis visiting my son we were having brunch at a restaurant and a young woman beautiful young woman walks in with a Colts t-shirt on and so I I asked her I said are you a Colts fan?

And she said no I'm a Colts cheerleader.

I'm here visiting my parents and I said oh that's wonderful where do you live I live in Carmel I said I live in Carmel.

I said where do you live she says I live in the prosinium and I said fantastic what do you think about it and she literally to Jeff's point gushed about what a great place it was to live how close it was to everything so yes at least one person who does not come from Carmel and lives here now really enjoys that area so just want to add that to the conversation questions one uh the discussion not a question but more of a comment the discussion about the uh 95% going to 100% yeah um we definitely need to hear it at the full city council uh counselor taylor is a good headliner but I don't know how many people tune in to the finance meeting it would be good for the whole city council to kind of hear the reasons why it's going to 95 to 100% the legislation the impact everything else so I appreciate you asking that question and kind of going through it.

Um the previous version of this project similarly had the same notion of of public facing spaces over the garage facing veterans way, and so that was a concept that was discussed with Michael Klitzing on the previous version.

Michael Klitzing was the first person, Parks Director Klitzing was the first person to see this image before anyone else saw this image, and he has no issue with kind of the it was the same kind of deal that was there before.

And frankly, a larger part of this conversation is that parking back fees differ from town to town.

Um park impact fees differ from um in some towns, uh there's a one parking back fee for a single family home and a different park impact fee for like a studio apartment, with the thinking that the different units put a different load on our parks use, for example, right?

Like a maybe a house will have a family there versus studio apartment probably will won't.

But it's the same cost per any dwelling unit in the city for park impact fees.

So there are times like if a production home neighborhood is uh like a Lenar something is building a neighborhood, they should very much pay the park impact fees, but that's just a market kind of deal that's not being otherwise incentivized.

Here the city is putting in money to make this project happen.

So for every million dollars has to come back out and feed the parks department, then the we would be that would just be growing the gap by the same million dollars.

And so on these urban projects on these urban public private partnerships that have expensive components like a garage.

If we're not putting the parking pack fees back into the project, the project ends up failing.

Because no, there's not extra million and a half dollars somewhere.

And so this is a way to utilize the parking pack fees here in a way that still makes them accessible and gives a nice public space.

I mean, there were uh in land use, uh, some of the counselors brought up that uh maybe the space here is gonna be used uh unevenly.

Like during the um Carmel Fest, I can see these decks being packed with people, but uh other times the middle of winter might not be, and and that's okay.

But this was the park impact fee uh kind of use that was approved at BPW and has always been discussed in front of this council.

Additional questions or comments.

I just had a few.

Um could you just review from a top level the estimated total development cost, estimated TIFF collection, and review for the public in the maximum um bond amount in the ordinance that we passed?

Uh I think the maximum bond amount was about 19 million.

Um I will follow up if I say that wrong, but I believe it was 90 million.

Again, that bond amount isn't changing.

Uh all in is 123 million dollar project, so the TIFF component of that is up to 19 million, however, much the developer can monetize it essentially.

But 123 million dollar all-in investment.

And those are updated with the SEA impacts on the 2% AV multifamily We did not update some of those metrics that remains in the slide, but it pretty similar.

Okay.

Um can you review the um PRIF credit process based on our recordnance that we passed?

And um the uh yes, counselor, you you passed an ordinance that would apply to all new projects that at that moment didn't already have a BPW agreement in place, so this would fit under the previous version that already has a BPW agreement in place.

So what would happen is again there's a BPW agreement in place already.

When that uh when did that agreement was passed by BPW prior to was it prior to 24?

Yes, counselor.

It was one of those.

But it was pre-this project proposal because it was another another development proposal for which the PRIF credit was approved.

It was for this developer, it was prior to bringing the current version of the project in front of city council.

Okay, but it was part of one of those approved uh BPW agreements.

But that being said, we have discussed the use of the parking pack fees every time we've I've always led with the image that shows the use of the park impact fees every time we discussed this project.

Yep.

Then um is uh the PRIF only used for the two public spaces on the podium, or is it also used for the tower?

No, no, just the two public spaces for the podium because I we work very hard to make sure we hit our parks qualified usage.

Okay.

Yep, thank you.

Then I have a few more, but okay.

Um so we talked about this a little bit, but um also received some questions about it.

Um we have obviously the city of Carmel has a major investment in the Hotel Carmichael.

Um can you talk a little bit about the differences between this brand and how um our hopes are this will not cannibalize the success of the Hotel Carmichael, which we just approved an expansion of keys to that project.

If I could, I I would like to take maybe a kind of a broader approach to that answer.

Yes, sir.

Um City of Carmel has a lot of hotel rooms more than any other city in in the county.

And we're gonna continue to add hotel rooms, not just because of things going on in the city of Carmel.

Grand Park spins off so much travel and so many rooms that there are, as we all know, hoteliers attempting to put up hotels all over this county.

So hotels are gonna get built in Carmel either way.

We could hopefully steer the upscale flags away from kind of the transient US 31 nature where some of our uh um limited service hotels are today, and we can steer the most quality flags into our walkable downtown where these hotels add value.

And as we continue to have more as we continue to add walkable vibrancy through smart development, our downtown should be the place with multiple walkable hotels with the grandest flags to benefit.

I mean, we all benefit when people stay in hotel rooms in our Carmel hotel rooms, but man, there's a benefit when they avail themselves to the walkable staycations, and those happen in our walkable central core, not necessarily the limited service hotels and the extended stay hotels along US 31.

So I think the answer is those rooms are coming either way, and the city should do its best to put developers in the core on an equal footing to go and get those luxury and upper upscale flags because it only benefits us.

And it's not like if we don't put up these hotels here, the rooms will come anyways, they'll just come in um less upscale hotels along US 31 and and those will still come no matter what.

I mean, Westfield's approving them often.

I I think actually the Hotel Carmichael helped prove the concept so that a developer like Tony can attract a hotel tapestry without having us taking a complicated ownership or P3 model to make it happen besides TIFF for the garage.

So I I just wanted to make sure to get that on record and have that explained.

The um and I like the commitment to Tony to have an outside user for the commercial office.

I think it's very important for us to continue to attract new headquarters and new companies uh to our central core where we have the highest demand office space really in the state of Indiana, uh, maybe rivaled by um the um uh Coke bottling plant uh project down in near Mass Avenue.

Um I just uh looks a hit hit on a few other items.

Um I did want to talk about um you know when I look at the parking when we look at multifamily, I mean we typically look at one and a half, so I'll I'm I'm comfortable with the parking related to the um multifamily in this project.

Um I usually we typically look at about four per thousand square feet on commercial office, so you're about there.

Um Jeffari addressed my question with the valet.

Um many times we're using public street parking that the community has paid for um to do the valet, so I appreciate how you're addressing the valet on uh in this project.

Um please make sure you follow through with that commitment.

Um I understand why the multifamilies needed I I appreciate how you've limited it to 154 um 154 units.

It's a necessary evil, I think, to make the units work.

I'm little concerned about the future, which I talked about this.

This is something the city's gonna have to address is uh the amount of traffic that's gonna be placed on veterans way.

Um I think we're gonna have to continue to look at that at how that's addressed through our core, particularly now.

I agree with putting the frontage of the hotel facing um the Japanese garden, etc.

Um, it's just gonna drive a lot more traffic right by.

I mean, almost get hit sometimes people flying down Veteran Way walking into a council meeting.

So we'll have to maybe look with work with engineering to look at some calming measures through there.

So, Henry, if you know if we could talk to Brad about that in the future, doesn't keep this project from happening.

It's just something we're gonna have to address due to our own success.

Um, we've debated and debated the parking, and the very thing that solve well, let me ask the question first.

Is Studio M using a uh parking consultant?

They're great architects, um, but they're not um they're not typical garage designers or engineers.

Are you guys using had have they engaged a parking consultant when you guys reevaluated the garage and the efficiency of the garage?

Um no, they haven't.

Okay.

Um I think they've used rules of thumbs that they've used in the past, but we really focused a lot on what we did on Prescanium One.

Prescentium One has similar components, multifamily, office, retail, and then we also obviously had uh for sell.

So in Prescentium One, the 24 units that we sold each came with two parking spaces, so that took 48 spaces out of parking component.

Um the only thing it did not have was the hotel.

Yeah, so we used those ratios and come up with the ratios we've seen here, and we we had good success there.

So I think I'm gonna I'm gonna recommend something, Henry, and um we do this often and consult with other communities doing this, and so the problem it's not that people don't trust the developer.

Well, sometimes they don't, right?

Because you have a financial motive, right?

And um you want to develop a great project that's very successful, but obviously want to make money.

And this the parking has been a big sticking point for many people.

Uh, a number of people on the council keep continue to bring it up, right?

Because that's a presentation from uh the developer saying that the parking works.

One thing that was um an important process of getting the um parking garage uh next to um Carmel uh PD, right over just to the north of us approved, was the redevelopment commission and I believe it was Janelle who brought them in, uh brought in L VR, or you brought them in.

No, it was me.

Yeah, you brought them in to do a to do uh Lisa Reyes L VR, or there's others out there, there's well you know, a number of them out there to do a to do a parking garage study.

Um when we're gonna continue to see we have a couple other projects in the central core that are that may be be come forward with that will have parking garages in it.

And we have you know, we just did the larger area parking study, but for a nominal cost, you could have a third-party unbiased consultant come in and help validate these numbers and make this conversation for us for the novices on the council to you know.

I understand I I get this, I understand this, but for certain people, it's sometimes hard to wrap your head around.

You have 154 units, but you don't have uh uh an X number of beds and how many how many parking spaces are right per unit, how many parking spaces are right per bed, how many parking spaces are right per thousand square feet of office and number of keys per hotel, right?

And it was maybe just a suggestion to provide clarity in the future for projects related around parking.

Is it worth 10, 15,000 for a stu uh a study to be formed or the developer to uh to bring in a third party to do that?

I think it helps clarify this nebulous conversation around parking by an outside third-party consultant.

So the that was just a uh uh suggestion I was gonna make.

Um the other thing I think it's important is to um review for the public the um how we approach the ownership structure and long-term term maintenance and public use of these garages.

Could you just hit on that for a moment?

Because future property tax dollars are being used to pay for the garage.

Yes.

Uh it's really the the best possible scenario.

I mean, honestly, we have our neighbors today building garages that they will own and manage and maintain.

Our neighbors in Hamlin County are doing that as we speak.

This is a developer bond.

We're not on the hook in any way for the obligation to build this garage.

Oh, after it is built, there's going to be a public easement that's gonna get recorded on this garage.

A version of a document I just sent to uh another developer yesterday.

It makes the parking spaces open to the public on a first come, first serve, subject to CRC rules in perpetuity.

As long as this garage stands, even after the bonds are paid off, if the garage still exists, it's gonna be open for public use forever.

And it's going to be maintained and managed by not our money, which is incredibly important.

Yes.

I will I will just say I respect Leah Reyes a lot, she's a wonderful parking consultant.

I've used her many, many times.

We've used her uh to study City Center, we've used her to study uh Midtown.

We know her Excel, we know her counts.

At a certain point, the the the parking assumptions get pretty standardized.

And this is something my team spends lots of time putting together.

So all this is vetted by us before anyone else.

So it's just a question of uh I can see it some uh I can see this as like a case-by-case basis, but the question is um how much money do you want to spend on a consultant before knowing a project is approved?

Right.

It's it's just it just provides clarity when it's a when it's and I'm not promoting one individual firm.

There's multiple firms across the country that Haas, Tem Haas, you know, etc.

There are many good firms.

Yep.

I'm just you know that could be something that provides additional clarity for people who and a because this is an important project.

This project has to happen.

And if if a project like if we weren't able to attract 100,000 square foot office users in a tapestry hotel because people are not able to wrap their head around parking and feel like we're we're not properly parking the project, that would be that would be unfortunate.

So I was just making that recommendation.

I I could say I think it's fair to say that these counts and this review of this project, while L VR was not involved, these assumptions have been vetted by L VR because they're the assumptions that we have used for a long time, including when we have retained L VR to assist us in our counts.

So this is like industry standard stuff.

But I can see on a case-by-case basis needing that at times.

And um, and then you know, I know you guys will do a great job, but as we move forward with the project, um, luckily people in our community are starting, and people come to our community are starting to uh utilize garages more, right?

Because we've done such a great job at hiding our garages, and the psychology is weird about whether or not people will use a garage.

They will walk three blocks sometimes if they're not used to using a garage versus pulling right underneath the development and using the garage, right?

So the wayfinding is being very important on this project, particularly because we have public spaces that the public uses for this facility right across the street, and we don't want all these spaces being consumed by users of this development when they have needs for staff and city functions at this at this building.

Just my guess once this project is built, we're probably signing the city hall parking lot, but that's for someone else to determine.

Yep, yep.

Those those are um those are my questions and comments.

Councillor Minor.

Sorry, I have to take another bite at the apple.

Um, just two other things.

Uh you mentioned uh it just came to my mind.

You said there's gonna be a conference space within the um uh hotel.

How big is that going to be?

Um we haven't determined how big it's gonna be yet.

Um we're working with the flag to determine how big that space is gonna be.

But it will be a small conference space um for guests generally.

We're also gonna open that up for the office.

So sometimes the office um users want to get out of their building and utilize the conference space as well.

I'm thinking five to six thousand square feet.

Okay, so it's not gonna be overly large.

Great, that's great.

And then um one of my biggest complaints about percentage, and it's really not even a complaint, as so much as it is the park impact fees that were designed to to put the green space there.

Um let's just call what it is.

It's a it's a bathroom space for animals.

Um, which is fine.

I'm I'm not bagging on that, but I just want to be sure with this project that it doesn't become that that that same thing.

So are there ways to mark that property so that people know that it's a park space or it's it's meant for public use?

I mean, I know you can't keep animals off the grass.

I understand that, but just so people know it's used for public consumption.

No, absolutely.

Um one of the flaws in proscenium one was that there wasn't a programming of that space.

What we're doing now, um, and it's come before Henry, we're getting ready to build a new building out in that space that was always originally designed that will have a wine and coffee bar and additional office space.

So that will take up some of it, which will reactimate that space.

Um, but clearly um in multifamily, there's a lot of dogs.

And trying to find and with the um the the new detention pond.

Um we always believed that that was where um pets and and things would go, but that's been a long time coming.

So um they ended up going to that space.

But it's just an observation, and you know, in the middle of the summer, it's 100%.

I I would assume that that green space is probably one of the top reasons that the pet lovers move into the proscenium.

It's quite an amenity for that.

Henry, I'm not gonna argue with you about this.

We could talk about that also.

Um I just had one uh one last comment.

I wanted to clarify my statements from the city council meeting uh related to two percent assessed value.

When I mean when I say two percent assessed value under um what has been uh ratified in the new estate constitution that property taxes are capped at 2% of the assessed value for multifamily.

Senate enrolled act one provided deductions to the assessed value to reduce the property tax burden of multifamily uh up to as I stated around I believe 36% through 2031.

This is as you stated, this is driving the re the reduction of tax increment that is achieved on the project for the multifamily component, which is driving the need to change the TIFF split.

I wanted to make that um make that clear.

And my comment was is that we're for communities who do multifamily development, they're receiving less tax revenue from that multifamily development.

And I don't know if any multifamily developer that's not going to charge the highest market rents that they can achieve.

This isn't about this developer, this is about multifamily developers.

The highest per square foot rents they can achieve in a multifamily development, regardless of a reduction of an operating expense, such as property taxes.

So I wanted to make that very clear uh uh my position on this.

I understand property tax reform to uh for homesteads for people who um live in homes, particularly those around fixed income, seniors, etc.

I just it just boggles my mind why during property tax reform they gave a deduction of property taxes to multifamily developers and and um anyhow I just wanted to clarify that.

Um seeing no other comments, we need a motion to uh got another comment.

No, see no other comments, we need a motion to uh for a decision on um how we want to send this back to uh the common council.

Uh Mr.

President, I'd like to move uh that we send uh ordinance D dash 2815-26 and ordinance ordinance D 2816 26 back to the full council with a positive recommendation.

I will second that.

We have a motion and a second.

We'll vote.

We already got it up.

Just just for the record, uh the reason why there's uh motion passes unanimously the uh the reason why there's only three votes is Jeff Warrell had another commitment he had to make, so he had to step out.

So motion passes unanimously to send this back to the council with a positive recommendation, seeing no other business before the finance committee on this agenda, we will adjourn at 6 42 p.m.

Thank you.