Meeting come to order.

Okay, first and then second.

Okay.

Okay.

Hello.

Can you see that?

Excellent.

My name is Catherine Shore.

I'm with the planning department, and I'm here to present the staff recommendation for conditional zoning application at 701 Martin Luther King Jr.

Boulevard.

The site is located at the corner of East Longview Street and Martin Luther King Junior Boulevard.

It's in the South MLK focus area.

It's surrounded by medium density residential and office uses, and it's just south of the Bowling Creek Greenway.

We recommend this project because we believe it's an alignment with the complete community goals and the comprehensive plan.

The requested modifications to regulations serve the public purpose.

And we recommend that the council is considering the approving the project subject to the conditions of ordinance A.

I'll summarize the project, and after my presentation, the applicant will come up and share more information about their request.

They're requesting to rezone from neighborhood commercial to and residential three to the mixed use village conditional zoning district.

Their uh proposed development is a multifamily residential and ground floor retail uh project.

It would involve up to 200 units in a nine-story structure with about uh a thousand square feet of retail space.

10% of those dwelling units will be income restricted affordable housing.

And the ordinance commits the developer to uh provide a public outdoor plaza and a multi-use path that would complement the across the street NSBRT station.

So procedurally, the reason why this is in front of you is because the requested zoning district accommodates the proposed land uses and scale of development, and the conditional zoning would allow for some site specific standards to make this development possible.

Uh the applicants also requesting some modifications to LUMO, which we think are appropriate given the location and the comprehensive plan goals.

So, like I said, it aligns with the complete community framework.

They're proposing a transit-oriented mixed use development in an infill location, which could reduce overall vehicle trips and support multimodal travel options.

They're also committing to reducing parking spaces to align with this type of development.

They're proposing the small retail space in public plaza to serve surrounding residents and transit riders.

They're also committing to facade transparencies that can create a more inviting environment for pedestrians.

We reviewed this project with the natural features viewer, and we don't believe it warrants additional uh review uh because this site scored fairly low in the model.

In addition, a recent stream determination classified the streams on site as ephemeral, which would reduce the scores in the model further.

So the procedure that we are recommending for you this evening is to receive and provide comment and to consider the consistency uh with the comprehensive plan and consider the ordinance approving the application.

And I'll invite the applicant up and then after their presentation will be available for questions.

Is it um projecting?

Okay, so you can just click that which one this one?

Yeah, just two things to full screen.

Yep, but uh good evening.

I'm Brian Boyles with Landmark Properties.

Can you guys see the presentation?

Okay.

Uh so we're landmark properties.

We are one of the largest residential developers in the southeast.

Uh we have several different product lines.

We have uh multi-family, more traditional multi-family.

We have a mixed-use uh multi or excuse me, mixed use mid-rise building as close to Charlotte.

Uh, we have build to rent townhome and uh single-family rental communities from Texas to Florida, and we have student housing across the country.

Uh we still own and manage two projects that we developed in Raleigh.

Uh we are vertically integrated, so we have our own management and construction companies, so we build and manage everything in-house, and we are long-term owners of our projects.

So we uh we take community input and design very seriously on the front end because we live with the decisions that we make early.

Um as mentioned, our project is located at 701 MLK Junior Boulevard at the corner of East Longview and Martin Luther King Junior Boulevard.

It's a two parcel assemblage, slightly under two acres.

Uh it's within sub-area C of the South MLK focus area and the future land use map.

So this uh these properties have already been earmarked for uh multifamily development long term.

Uh this is just a uh our proposed site plan.

So when we presented our concept plan to uh to council back in November, the biggest feedback we got was to implement some sort of community gathering area uh to complement the both existing and future bus rapid transit uh stop located right across Longview Street.

So there'll be a there will be a uh rendering here shortly, but uh we have we will be implementing that community area right at the corner of Longview and Martin Luther King Jr.

Boulevard.

Uh we'll have some covered seating and really just invite the public and promote that use there.

We will have ground level retail with uh outdoor seating as well as a uh 12-foot wide multi-use path to really activate that street frontage along MLK Junior Boulevard.

The uh parking will be accessed from East Longview Street, and there will be a fire and service access road from Martin Luther King Jr.

Boulevard that will be not accessible to the public.

Uh and we're planning some landscaping amenities as well as a dog walk dog walk right next to that uh to that fire access lane.

Project overview be seven to eight story mixed use building, 175 to 200 residential units.

Uh, as mentioned, we are proposing 10% affordable units, those are on-site affordable units, uh, 5% at 65% AMI and 5% at 80% AMI, and those units will be indistinguishable from the other market rate units throughout the building.

Uh we are currently proposing 232 parking spaces, which is slightly lower than code minimum, but not too low to require uh parking variants, and it's about as low as we feel comfortable and having long-term viability and leasing our building.

Uh again, we'll have a multi-use path along MLK Jr.

And uh we have committed to NGBS gold standard uh for green certification, which is uh well above minimum.

So we took this concept plan to uh to council in November, and the major items that we got feedback on were one uh activating that street frontage and promoting that community plaza area, which we feel like we've done a great job there, uh reducing our parking as low as we felt comfortable, and so we've reduced our parking to you know even lower than minimum, but again, not too low where we need a variance.

Uh, and then come up with an affordable housing proposal.

Uh you know, we've worked with Maggie and her team to come up with our 10% affordable on-site uh 5% at 65% AMI, 5% at 80% AMI.

Uh and then another big item that uh council wanted us to look at was to work with Brian Peterson on the architectural massing of the building.

We had three or four meetings with him, and I think I think his feedback will be very positive on the on the design that we've implemented.

Uh, there's just some items here that we've used to really break up that massing.

We've got balconies, we've got stepbacks, uh really the shape of the building because of the shape of our site, you know, really helps break that up as well.

Uh here's a just a conceptual rendering of our plaza area as well as ground floor amenities and multi-use path, really showing how we intend to activate that space for the public.

There'll be covered seating out there, uh, really be a great complement to the both the existing bus routes, uh bus stops as well as the future bus stop located right at uh right at Longview there.

Uh this is just a conceptual rendering, again, just conceptual, just showing the building from across the street.

You can see how you know ground level storefront changes and materiality above that and balconies, stepbacks, etc.

Really, you know, help break up the massing of that building.

Here's a proposed site section.

We'll have five to six levels of uh of residential above two, and in some places three levels of below uh one level below grade parking and two levels above grade uh parking, structured parking.

Uh the topography slopes up towards the back of the site as uh it approaches the existing duplexes behind us.

So those duplexes are actually about 30 feet above our ground floor.

So uh you know, our building will appear to be five to six stories to those neighbors instead of the full seven to eight that we're proposing.

There's also uh significant uh existing tree canopy there, you know, to help really shield the building from those neighbors.

Uh here's just a conceptual view of how the building appears to the neighborhood behind us.

Again, existing tree canopy and the use of the topography building into the site will really help reduce the scale of the building to those to those neighbors behind us.

Uh environmental impact is mentioned.

Uh, there are no jurisdictional streams on site, so just wanted to preempt any um you know questions there.

Um, and uh so good to go there.

We will also be uh significantly improving the existing storm water drainage path.

Uh we will have underground detention, uh, which is obviously a significant improvement over the existing uh drainage, which there are no, it's just running on control of beat right now.

So um few notes on community consistency.

Uh first transit.

Again, there are four existing bus lines that this property services, and there's the future bus rapid transit stop that will be uh implemented right across Longview Street as well as a stop right across the street uh across MLK Junior Boulevard.

Um we will also be uh making a uh financial contribution to area transit transit improvements.

Meeting housing needs, we will have a variety of unit types between studios and four bedrooms uh to really promote this project to everyone uh to a wide variety of renters.

Uh and again, we'll have on-site affordable housing, uh, and those units will be indistinguishable to the other market rate units within the building.

Public realm, uh just a cons another conceptual rendering of our plaza area.

You'll see the covered seating area as well as the uh activated retail out front, as well as the mixed use path, really promoting the public use of that space in front of our building, uh, which will obviously complement those the use of public transit and those bus stops, both current and future.

And uh B green, uh we again have our uh committing to NGBS gold standard, which is uh well above minimum.

Um our location is within walking distance from downtown and uh university really uh to really promote the use of both public transit and discourage the use of vehicles.

Uh we will have EV charging stations on site as well as infrastructure in place to accommodate you know any increases in demand in the future.

Uh and then we'll also have uh bike storage as well.

Uh so we'll have um a bike storage area with um with stands for repairs and um outlets for for e-bikes to charge those and uh really hope to discourage the use of automobiles from our site.

So that's our that's our presentation.

Let us know what questions you have.

Thank you.

Um we'd like to start.

I just have these are let's start with clarifying questions, yeah.

Questions and then sure after questions we could we go to public comment.

Um this is a question for Catherine.

So I noticed um in Brian Peterson's comments and in the presentation tonight, there were some um comments and representations made about design elements like stepbacks and massing and um covered seating to activate the area in the front.

I also noticed that none of that is an ordinance A.

So um what's the town's approach to reducing to writing commitments made or not reducing to writing commitments made depending on the topic?

Um that's a good question.

I think it depends on the topic, like you're indicating.

Um there are some commitments that the applicant's making around just the outdoor amenity plaza in general that relate to the design of the site.

Um, and then facade transparency that relate to the massing and how the building relates to the street that we in the planning department feel really confident enforcing.

Um because we've written them in the way in an ordinance that um we feel like we can set a clear standard, um, and we have clear instruments uh laid out in our toolbox to to enforce them.

Um it gets trickier when you're um thinking about things like um creating like a form-based code for a specific site, um, which is maybe what you would be getting at when you're thinking about stepbacks and covered seating and things and of that nature.

Yeah, I guess I'm just thinking, let's say there's no cover for the seating, you know, just ends up being hard to do, more expensive when people anticipate no cover.

So then what happens?

That's not something that we're expecting of the applicant because it's not in their ordinance.

Right.

So um, if it is something that was important to you all and important to council, then it's something that the applicant would have to agree to, and then it would be in the ordinance.

But from the like design assessment perspective, those are really reflective of the conversations that they've had and of the conceptual renderings, but not something we're enforcing.

Okay, got it.

Thank you.

Catherine, while you're by have a question for you as well.

Um I believe we looked at a project on this side a year or two ago.

I think it was the Aspen Project.

Were you all doing that one too?

No.

Um, and just help jog my memory here.

I remember there was a lot of discussion about the stream bed going down, and I thought at the time there was an RCD that they were trying to um build into, and they were planning to restore the stream as part of the project.

So now there's not an RCD.

What happened in between?

That's a good question.

Um and the applicant can also speak to it.

Um, so the town has a process for stream determinations.

Um those can be submitted by um uh property owner, um, and we can accept them from the town completing a stream determination or a third party.

So that property owner completed a stream determination and found this was not in fact an intermittent stream that would require RCD.

Uh it is an ephemeral stream.

So that happened in July of 2024 after the Aspen project was reviewed.

And what is the definitional difference between it intermittent and ephemeral?

There's actually a lot that goes into that.

And if you would like that, I can follow up with you about it.

Um, in terms of how the RCD gets applied, it's whether or not that there's a buffer.

There's no buffer applied to ephemeral streams.

Got it.

Okay, thank you.

And would the applicant like to share anything more on that?

Sure.

Bridget Anter, I work for landmark, um, I live in the area.

Um, and I do love streams.

I love hiking, I love streams.

Um in this case, um, you know, we represented you know the previous um developers project, and looking at it, um I also evaluate all the easements and where the water is coming from and how it's being controlled.

Um and in this case, all of the runoff that's coming onto the site is uncontrolled drainage.

Um so it created a ditch, or there was a ditch, and that was being used to convey the stormwater, and that widened over time because MLK was developed and widened.

Um there was no increase in controls or facilities for the stormwater, so it really just got to be kind of a mess on our site.

So we have runoff coming from the west from Columbia Place, their detention pond drains down the hill into our site.

Um we have runoff coming from the south across Longview.

So there's um, you know, the highway drainage is picked up there and brought onto our site, and then we also have it coming diagonally across MLK Junior Boulevard from a great inlet that NCDOT has a 1968 drainage easement on.

So looking at it, it doesn't, there's not water sitting there.

Um so the difference between just really broad strokes, intermittent and f ephemeral is um ephemeral will only have water in the very wettest times of the year or when it's being used as a drainage conveyance.

So it's difficult to sustain you know, aquatic, biological, you know, any kind of um you know, stream-like function to it if there's not you know more of a constant supply of water.

So when it's ephemeral, we it's not really considered a stream, so that's why we don't have the stream buffers.

Um in this case in July of 24, I believe that the previous developer and the city worked together to determine that they were ephemeral.

When we went before council last November, they also asked about this.

So we went back and got environmentalists to study the study the study all the you know runoff on the site and determine whether it had any kind of aquatic function.

Um they determined it does not have aquatic function.

Um and then further they went ahead and said that they believe that controlling the stormwater on the site would help the overall watershed, the function of the watershed.

So you know, town staff said that.

I'm sorry who said that we said we it it came from an environmental firm that um they their job is to evaluate wetlands and to evaluate you know streams and stream impacts.

So it was Spangler Environmental.

They did the first study, so we wanted to use them again, so we went back to them, and then we submitted this to the town too.

Um once we found out that there was not any aquatic function.

I am happy to send both of those reports to you.

There's pictures, there's data.

Um, and then I'm happy to, I've got a diagram that shows where the runoff is coming onto our site.

And you know, you if you drive by, you can see that we've, you know, that site now has kind of a little lake in the front.

Um, it's just all the stormwater is kind of eroded into a big uh mess.

And so can you describe your stormwater control, how you will be controlling it?

Provide a little more detail on that.

Yes.

So um the current stormwater ordinance requires that we detain and could and control the pre-to-post runoff for the one year, the two-year, the 25-year, and the hundred-year storm.

So hundred-year storm runoff comes onto an undeveloped site.

There's a certain amount of runoff that that leaves the site.

We have to, once we develop it, have to match that and and decrease it.

Um so for that large storm, we will be we have we'll have an underground detention underneath the fire access that's on the northeast side of the site with a sand filter, you know, below it.

Um but that will hold the stormwater for our site and slowly release it.

Um the sand filter will do two things.

It will retain the, I believe it's the two-year storm has to stay, and actually, these guys could tell me back here, the two-year storm um has to stay on site.

You can't ever release whatever excess rainfall falls from that.

So that gets absorbed into the ground into the sand filter, and the sand filter also acts as a water quality device because I believe we have to remove up to 85% total suspended solids.

Um the runoff that's coming, you know, through our site from primarily the NC DOT right away, um, and then less or so from you know the Columbia Place apartments, we will put a you know, we have talked to NCDOT, and we will have a bypass pipe that will you know control that it'll be sized, you know, in accordance with what the current stormwater runoff is, and then we will provide an easement for that through the front of our site under the plaza.

And so that's where the stream bed is now, that's where you'll place the pipe.

That's uh it started out as a 20-foot easement from the old MLK boulevard um right-away, and since then it's hard to find out where that 20-foot easement was, but um I think the what from what we can gather, the intent in 1968 was for the first 20 feet, there was probably some sort of um swale that collected um, you know, just similar to a highway swale on either side.

Um, and now that's grossly undersized um for what's gone on development wise.

So we plan to control it.

Um I have one more question.

So, how did this site do in the big uh Chantal tropical depression last month?

Did you all go out and just how did the flooding work then?

I was in New Zealand.

I'm sorry.

But surely someone who someone went out and took a peek.

Or some of the people who live there now.

Um I think that you know, Brian and I were just out there um not that long ago, and I didn't see you know any lasting effects towards it.

Like I, you know, there are some um walls out there that probably would not have withstood um uh something uh possibly there's railroad tie, old railroad ties that are kind of holding back a bank in in one place.

Um I didn't see anything, but you know, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Okay.

Did you have to have a question related to this as well?

So your your stormwater management system, one thing that ephemeral streams do, of course, is store water during the rainfall event, but they also allow groundwater recharge and then the plants and vegetation growing there, even if it's not high quality aquatic habitat, it is the trees and such provide shade and you know some kind of what how does your system help recharge groundwater?

So I'll start with that.

Yeah, it would be well well for starting out.

This site is on rock.

Um is what it's rock.

So just a couple feet, you know, below the lowest part of our site, we're hitting rock.

Um you know, we need to do another geotech report and and find that out.

So you know, this this the sand filter will keep the the water on site as far as recharging the groundwater.

I don't think that that's gonna be possible here just because of the stone.

Um it could be that it it gets to it eventually, but this is not um I I do believe that the area that was previously developed on this site is kind of bare of trees for a reason.

And it's because there's very little this top sort of little rocky strip through there.

Is that the area when I look at the maps?

Maybe you can show us.

No, you can, yeah.

If you look at um where the garages and the house that are right down there on Longview, that whole flat area, the lowest part of the site.

That's stone, about 10 anywhere from two feet to 10 to 12 feet below.

Okay.

So it's a it's a really fun sign.

All right, thanks.

I just want to point out that how however rocky and what have you that these natural ephemeral or I know you're saying it's not even natural, but ephemeral streams provide a lot of functions that they do.

Artificial facilities can always provide.

Yeah, and you know, we plan to landscape.

Um, I think you know, Thomas Hunt's done a great job of providing a really nice landscape area in the plaza.

So it will still be green.

Um, it'll just be you know, planters that are controlled, and um, you know, it's not we're not like paving paradise.

This is not, you know, constantly, but it's not going to be wooded, and it it was not wooded before we started.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you.

Thanks uh for all that clarification.

I think those are all our questions.

So we're gonna turn to see if there are any questions or comments from the public.

Oh but Libby has some other questions.

Go ahead, Libby.

Well, and you're in the materials we received.

I don't think you mentioned that tonight, but in the materials we we received, there was something about a courtyard, and I believe you're showing that courtyard.

I'm just wondering what a six-story down courtyard looks like, and what you envision for that.

Yeah, so still very conceptual in the design, but you know, we have those outdoor amenity spaces in a lot of our projects.

I mean, we've got a we've got a mid-rise in Charlotte with outdoor amenities there as well.

So again, it's early in the design, so we have not actually designed that, but you know, we do a number of things from outdoor green space to you know, of course, there's pools and most of our projects and um outdoor amenity space for the residents.

Other questions?

No, I have comments.

Well, we'll get to comments in a moment.

Okay.

All right.

Um, I don't believe there are any questions from the public, so we will now move on to comments.

Did you want to go to your comments?

Or would you like to pass the uh sure I'll pass the pick on West?

Sure.

I did not have any questions, so I'll leave with comments.

Um you've worked well the staff on getting the affordability in there.

Uh seems like you've addressed a lot of the concerns not only from the conceptual plan, but from the previous project.

Um, I really like uh that you do own and manage and that you are long-term owners of this project.

Um I'm very aware of the property the Stanford and Raleigh.

And one of the things is the streetscape isn't very activated, and so I would encourage um this project to be to be to hold true to making that plaza and the street natural with the planters and be engaging.

In the presentation, there are a lot of pictures of Franklin Street and and some um you know umbrellas and and tree lined streets from other neighborhoods, and I feel some confidence with that because Thomas and Hutton and Dan Jewel knows Chapel Hill and has worked here a lot.

So um I would just say I I would not like it to look like the Stanford does in on Hillsburn Street in Raleigh.

I think it Chapel Hill.

Um we need we need MLK to have the housing we need, but also have this engaging street street presence.

Um the I know we talk about the the bus rapid transit, but uh the north-south route is already there, it's already heavily used.

There are bus stops there, so when we talk about putting housing on transit corridors, this is a prime location for that.

Um just to speak to Libby's what does it look like in the courtyard?

I was down at a friend's place in uh Decatur outside Atlanta, and you just came into the courtyard, and while it was tall, there was a band playing down there, and there was you know, a bar and refresh there was like life inside the courtyard.

So I've seen some of these places where they can really um make that come to life.

So uh thank you for the work you've done so far in putting this together, and I just encourage you to keep that uh streetscape engaged and um thank you for addressing all the issues so far.

Um thanks for the presentation.

Um seems like a well-conceived project.

The density is um consistent with the town's future land use map.

This is exactly a type of location that we're looking along a transit corridor and you know, walkable, bikeable, easily busable to campus where we're looking for increased housing density.

Um also consistent with the complete community vision that you're including not a large but some um amount of mixed-use commercial space below um be interested to see how you program it.

It's up to you, but um, it's nice to see that.

Um concern, this isn't so much a concern about the project itself as it is with um the town's process is that if um a developer is going to go to the um effort of meeting three or four times with Brian Peterson, and um you know the council expresses interest at the concept plan stage and the quality of the design and the at the street level and the courtyard and the activation.

Um we in the council are gonna receive presentations on certain features of that, like covered seeding and articulation of the building to break up the massing and such.

It seems like um some aspect of that at some level of specificity doesn't have to be well beyond the concept um idea.

It doesn't have to be you know specific media and dimensions, but something about the concept to me should be um put in writing, otherwise it seems like a bit of a waste of time.

Formalized, yeah.

So when we maybe we'll think about how to phrase the condition when we to the amendment A ordinance a sure and we can think about how we might want to address that at least from our perspective.

So I was just gonna ask about the tree buffer mentioned.

It seemed is that that's mostly on the adjacent properties.

Is that right?

And not is there any guarantee those buffers will be protected or somehow maintained?

I guess it's I mean I think it's part of the conditions that we agreed to, right?

That's there's certain tree buffers.

Okay.

Uh well, then uh it's your building, it seems starts 10 feet.

Did I read that right from the property line?

Uh I don't recall off the top of my head.

It should be in the materials.

Yeah.

I can speak to your question about the tree buffer of the adjacent property.

That's a required open space of Columbia Place, the adjacent neighborhood.

Um, so that would it's a separate HOA um controlled and maintained property.

Um, I don't know the requirements of their tree planting, but um that open space requirement is set aside.

Okay, okay.

Um, but so my other comment would was then just about the landscaping mention for that what seems to be a narrow buffer on your property.

I don't think 10 feet is sufficient for canopy trees.

Um I don't know what you're gonna do about that at this point, squeeze it down a little bit, but um that was my main comment, and then I could offer some alternate suggestions on one or two of the trees.

I'll talk in much more detail.

Hey, good evening.

I'm Wendy Ramston, I'm a landscape architect with Thomas and Hunton.

We've been working on this project for a few months with these people.

Um I've been working with Adam Nicholson also um about the buffers and how we can get the most buffer, the most green in between these spaces.

And it's true the spaces are pretty narrow.

I believe the building is 14 or 15 feet from the property line.

And we are looking to, it's true that you can't put like a giant oak tree into a space where you've got a building 13 feet away.

Um, but we are looking to where the areas are narrowest to put um more um columnar type canopy trees.

They're still going to be tall, even some of them are gonna be evergreen, and where the building um is sort of set further away or where we're not at a building, we'll put the bigger, wider canopy trees in those spaces.

So we we have looked to get as much as we can into into the buffers that we have.

And are these native species?

Uh yes, we are we are saying that we are planting uh is this one all native?

Uh I I believe that they are all native, and in general, we always say that we'll plant the buffers in all native, even if maybe in the courtyard there would be a few non-native items.

I saw a plant list somewhere.

I saw a plant list somewhere I would just suggest you might not want to use the um Magnolia grande flora which may suppress other the the understory trees and shrubs and you might want to substitute shortleaf pine for Virginia pine.

Okay we'll uh to get into the weeds as it were that's okay we'll take that under advisor because when we get to the next phase that's when we really have to specify every single tree so I will note that Libby sees the force for the trees thanks and thank I think this also is a good place for the density and that the height especially kind of being down in that little is it's a good place for it so thank you.

Okay.

Uh and my comments are um I also echo I was impressed as looks like a very appropriate um building for this area the last one Aspen didn't get through but this seems to be um maybe more aligned with what the town is looking for.

So I appreciate a lot of walking through the various pieces that we care about the affordable housing all the different environmental uh efforts including the EVs maybe I think you even said try to put EV in for bicycles I think I saw and uh all electric appliances I think etc.

Couple of comments that I saw are I so the massing I can only not having seen the earlier one I don't know what it was improved I do like it.

I think you could go further in trying to break it up because that is a still a very big building for that space and I've just I'm impressed with all the apartments around Blue Hill and all how those that really like in your picture actually could you just put up I think it was the first that one so on the from what I see the left there's a notch on the a cutout at the very top which really gives the impression of it being almost a separate building whereas these balconies being pushed back is kind of even though it looks like it's relief here in your other pictures and in some of the other even like our uh you know down the street it still comes across as pretty flat and just given the size of this if you can give a little more relief in there I think that would make it just more attractive um I also think that the public space kind of jumping on what some of what Wes was saying the little massing space I don't know I don't totally buy that everyone's gonna hang out at the front door of the like oh here's the front you know here's the door man or whatever let's all sit down by him it just seems to me maybe it like when I look at this it doesn't look like a very big space the perspective you gave before look like this nice park and so um not sure but maybe just think a little harder maybe more cover there or even thinking about the public space in that other area although that might not be the bus stopper is close to the um I'm not quite sure on this where the bodega is or it'll be right it'll be right in here so we took that's and so that's where like the little outdoor patio and the seeding is so maybe if that further area could be better developed that might be more attractive so I don't know I just didn't quite believe that that was going to be a great outdoor area at the front door um and then the last thing the thing that I accept what you say this was as you said on the natural viewer not right as particularly important but um I think when you look at at the stormwater retention and think this is an important spot given all the water that goes through so we're gonna have more of these really large uh I I heard I'm sorry I forgot your name who Bridget who gave very helpful uh descriptions say you know they're planning for what is what we know comes down but we know that more will be coming down uh in five years and ten years etc this flooding issue is not going to be lessened in your property so really thinking of uh scaling for not just hundred year flood conditions but more um so those are my comments anything else did you I don't know if you all want to there really isn't much to respond to that you haven't already but should we go yeah well I also was concerned about water and

So really thinking of uh scaling for not just hundred year flood conditions, but more um so those are my comments.

Anything else?

Did you I don't know if you all wanna there really isn't much to respond to that you haven't already, but should we go?

Yeah.

Well, I'll oops.

I also was concerned about water and ambient temperatures, and you you mentioned um that there'll be site design elements to address energy heat mitigation and water conservation.

But again, are those just some wish well again?

Like that's all part of the NGBS um certification.

There are different requirements that we have to meet in certain point systems.

Uh I saw that, but you know, trees are the best heat mitigator we have, as is land.

So and shade.

So yeah, to echo what Liz said about that um commercial area, bodega or whatever, if that can be greened up or sheltered by the building, the upper floors.

Um also after you mentioned the rock, that it's a hot very rocky.

I guess you've done you'll do some quarrying to determine how feasible that underground garage is going to be.

So you've done a lot of work to this point.

So I hope it works.

Thanks.

Um just one last comment that I'm making is that we typically and in the future two projects we're gonna look at.

We like to look at the um community complete community matrix, but we just thought you did it laid this out very well, and so didn't feel that we needed to go to that effort.

So thank you for all the renditions, et cetera, are very helpful.

I'll move resolution A.

Reasonable and consistent with the company.

Yeah, with the comp plan.

I'll second that.

Okay.

Uh so this is for um reasonableness with the comprehensive plan.

Any comments?

Okay.

So we'll take a vote, Wes?

Aye.

John?

Aye.

Libby, aye.

And I'm aye, so that's unanimous.

Any other motions?

John, you want to try?

Yeah, so I'll motion um to recommend that the council approve ordinance A, which is approving the council level, we're just an advisory board.

The uh the proposal um with a recommendation.

And I'm open to other additional recommendations, but the the way I might word what I was trying to describe is that we recommend um including language in ordinance A addressing the agreed design features negotiated or called out in Brian Peterson's memo as appropriate.

I have it.

Oh, I just got to um I'll second that motion.

Okay.

Any discussion or wordsmithing on this?

Okay.

Why don't we take a vote?

John.

Aye.

What?

I Libby.

Aye.

And I'm an aye, so it's unanimous.

Um okay, great.

Thank you.

Good luck.

Thank you.

All right.

Thank you.

Thank you.

All right.

So I believe we have which one are we doing next?

The 860 Weaver Dairy.

All right.

Yeah.

Uh good evening.

My name is Josh Mill with the planning department.

Uh I'll have the applicant present first on 860 Weaver Dairy, and then I'll come back with the staff presentation.

Great.

Mix it up a little this time.

Threw me off.

Thanks.

Hey everyone, I'm Ernie Brown.

Um some of you have seen and met me before on previous projects, and I'm here again to present 860 weaver dairy.

I'm presuming it's in front of you because I'm used to seeing it up there.

Um it's kind of basically what we were gonna put in as kind of what you'd say a little bit more of a bubble plan that we had is kind of more of the concept plan.

The concept and how we've got it divided, really hasn't changed.

It's still the multifamily by the multifamily uh section.

Uh then in the center behind the office buildings we still have is a mixed use component.

Basically, I keep calling it non-residential, is what I'm saying, to be something different.

And then we blend more into the for sale component of the product type so that we've got laid out as uh town homes in this section, which then brings you down into weaver dairy with how it connects through this in a slide here that you basically can see how the site is kind of laid out, and then the portion that's underneath it kind of gives you the idea of like what kind of constraints that we're kind of playing with on this property, um, not only with the power lines, but then also with the RCD, the wetlands, the the streams and whatnot, and then how we worked around those to have very little impact with how we designed and stayed away from and moved around the space.

Uh there's not too loud up there.

I mean, I can talk louder.

Let's see here.

Uh the portion that we'll start off with talking about is the townhome portion.

We this section here is roughly called about 25 acres of the 45 acres.

Uh of this section, we're looking to do between 100 to 135 townhomes uh divided up into different kind of sections.

Uh one point to kind of give you kind of sort of context of size and scale.

Uh if you can see the center green section uh that's kind of on the main line where it looks like it's boxed in and it says you know, courtyard slash playground.

If you take those two green sections right there, that's the equivalent and the same size as Southern Village, that green space that's around Allesburgers and Town Hall Grill and all that.

So from conceptually standpoint, even though it looks like two small green spaces, if you actually combine the um space there, that's the size of it equivalent to the mixed use uh non-residential component.

We don't really have anything really programmed for that.

And here's why a lot going on in there.

Uh, we've got a lot of connectivity that we have in there.

We're putting in, you know, close to I think it's 2,000 linear feet of multi-purpose path to connect both the you know east and west side together.

Um I really want to kind of work with the office buildings across the street and how we can kind of connect there from a pedestrian standpoint, and then you know, realistically see how that spaces can be utilized, you know, in the future for something that would be unique and different and kind of be attractive to kind of bring people in.

Like, you know, how do we start it off with?

Well, first we'd start off by kind of just creating it there, you know, possibly utilizing it with some you know non-permanent structures like kiosks or whatnot.

And then, like I said, what you know, once the you know, the full connectivity is is put in, then kind of like let it kind of grow and see what it wants to be when it grows up.

The multifamily we're gonna have to do in two phases because of the size of it.

Uh, phase one is what you have here that's blocked out.

Uh, that'll be the first phase uh that we'll put in the pad where the second phase apartment complex will go uh and where the parking structure will use that as surface parking.

Once the first phase is stabilized, we'll then build the parking structure and then build the second phase, which you can see there.

This gives you a little bit of the scale.

This is what the concept design of the building that we have currently look like.

So as you're going down the road or if you're driving through or walking through, it doesn't actually look like two big buildings.

It actually looks more like it's broken up into four buildings to give you a little bit of uh also understanding size and scale.

That space that you see in the in between the two that's 90 feet wide.

So, and then I believe it's about 120 feet wide and built in the first phase, and then that second little pavilion, you know, I call it like an arcade.

That there is about 40 feet wide.

So you just to get like a sense of size.

This shows you how the apartment complex will, you know, transition with the interstate.

Uh, we are intruding a little bit into the hundred-foot buffer uh with the parking structure, uh, but using the parking structure as a as a sound barrier, then the apartments there.

So you can see the transmission line, green, the 10-foot path, green road, park uh pavilion.

So it gives you a little bit of sense of depth.

Uh connectivity.

This one from a standpoint of the same thing.

We're on the north-south route uh that the previous group already discussed about.

We're also on the T route, which also will take you to Chapel Hill, uh, East Chapel Hill High School.

Uh, and then this is also a pretty big component for doing the everywhere to everywhere plan, which we're you know, working with to put in the what as I said earlier, close to 2,000 linear feet of multi-purpose path along this whole development.

Uh again, you guys all know where this page came from.

It came from the uh, you know, the future land use map.

This is in section D, which this product type and use falls uh in that.

Here's something that you guys asked earlier about the complete community, wide variety of housing.

Well, we have anywhere from small studios up to four bedroom townhomes and everything in between.

And so, you know, not only you know, is the apartment complex, you know, grabbing or the two apartment complex grabbing different unit sizes as well.

All the home builders that we're talking to about doing the townhome side, we've discussed with them that we need a variety of sizes of townhomes in there in theirs as well.

Walk walkability, we have tons of you know, pedestrian paths, vehicular crossings.

Um, we're doing improvements uh with the town has asked us to do for um on the streets.

Let's see here.

It's close to employment.

What I really like about this is what's you know, it's not only is it close to what downtown and UNC, but it's also extremely close to East Town and what is going to be there eventually over the time when they build up East Town as well.

Let's see here.

From the concept plan, you know, this is basically the responses, you know, some of the you know comments that we got back from the council and our responses that we've had on that.

Uh a lot of it, you know, that they really kind of want to, you know, address.

Yeah, that we've worked on, you know, including the retail space that we've discussed, you know, making that multi that centerpiece more the focal point where I want to do a lot of the non-residential, you know, possibly put the retail there.

We'll have retail as well in the apartment complex, compact apartment complexes as well.

Um connectivity, the three points that were of access that we have, plus again, not just car connectivity, but you know, the multi-purpose path, as I've mentioned multiple times already.

Green spaces, we have several amongst the whole area.

I mean, in fact, um of this, I believe 15 acres is I believe we're only really disturbing uh 30 out of the 45 acres.

And when this whole project is all said and done, out of the 45 acres that we're working with, only 18 acres is going to be impervious.

So that gives you a little bit of how much of the space is or how much of the property we're really not messing with.

Uh council on this project when I went through concept.

They liked the uh density of the project, they like the the flex space that I was proposing in the middle, the greenway connections, the buffers, um, the additions of the non-use and the way that I was kind of asking that I needed to encroach in intruse into the 100-foot buffer, but I was using it for more streets, parking, that thing.

I wasn't, you know, I'm not using it for any kind of housing or you know, individual use.

And that is it.

I'll stand for okay.

Clarifying questions.

Sorry.

I got to go first.

Oh, right, right.

I've already been uh skipped over at Council.

All right.

Well, good evening.

My name is Josh Mayo with the planning department.

Um, as you heard, this is a conditional zoning for 860 Weaver Day located on this parcel between I-40 uh and Vilcom and the number of townhomes to the west and the Lakeview community to the east.

Flip that around.

Uh town homes to the east, lakie community to the west.

Staff's recommendation is that this project is aligned with complete community goals and the comprehensive plan.

The modifications to regulations serve public purchases to an equal or greater degree.

And we recommend that the council approve the project subject to the conditions of ordinance A.

Um Ernie went over the project, but just for a quick summary, uh, this project would be rezoned to mixed-use village conditional zoning with the ability to build multifamily townhomes and standalone commercial, up to 575 multifamily units and up to 135 townhomes, um, with 15% of the townhomes and 10% of the multifamily being affordable.

Just a quick reminder of complete community considerations uh for the commission's consideration.

Um for the natural features viewer, uh, we did want to highlight the site and some of the features on it.

Um, we do want to highlight that this model is static.

It is just a snapshot of the data that we have now.

The model is only as good as the data that we have that feeds into it, and staff knows that there's limitations to that data.

Um, it is relatively low resolution, and we can't expect any granular detail on any one part of the site.

Um, that said, the natural features model does give us some information about what is on the site.

The model shows that there are no critical habitat indicators on or near the site.

Um, it is mostly uh indicated by the hydrology with perennial and intermittent streams and the land use being undeveloped and the significant tree canopy uh causing some of the uh lighter brown on the model.

Uh the application proposes to limit R C D impacts to road and greenway crossings and retains tree canopy uh in multiple locations and we'll meet the tree canopy standards laid out in LUMO.

Um so for the commission, we ask that you review the rezoning application.

Receive public comment and provide a written recommendation on resolution A and ordinance A.

I believe we have a number of folks here to speak.

Um I would ask that we start with folks in the front rows going from right to left, um, just to make sure that everyone has an opportunity to speak.

Uh the planning commission chair can put a limit of three minutes if you like on public comment.

Um but if that system works for folks, then I'm happy to start uh on this side.

Uh if you would like to speak.

Josh.

Yes.

We use we usually ask clarifying questions and then go to the audience.

Yes.

Because also maybe some of our questions will help answer what we do that, and then I like your the way you're ordering it.

But also thanks and thanks for adding in the natural features viewer.

That was um that was great.

Exactly.

All right.

Okay.

All right.

All right.

We'll we'll go to the um well.

Are are there any just technical not specific to that?

Any technical questions?

I I think Ernie, um, it would be great to hear the stormwater plan, what you're what you're doing for um stormwater.

Yeah, uh, so we're adhering to what I don't believe it's uh part of the code yet, but what will be when we're adhering to the hundred year storm.

The lady previous me described it beautifully.

I I can't outdo that the way she did, but it would use in the same system, Thompson Hutton and their civil engineering team and landscape architect team is the same as ours.

So, but I can lay out if you'd like, I think the best way to kind of look at it is to look at this site and see the constraints.

Um, and I think it would also be helpful to kind of understand like how the water runs is probably the best way to look at it.

So one of the things I would like is I wish that this cursor and mouse would show up there because it'd make a lot more sense when we move my hand around.

It does.

It does.

Oh, perfect.

All right, great.

Um, so back here is where we're gonna have the stormwater mana uh stormwater detention for the apartments.

Reason why it flows that way.

So if you ever walk that property, you would see that it flows back towards the interstate.

So you catch it there and the way that it's runs.

Um same thing with these streams here, also runs to it, except for this portion here, and you can see in the center.

If I could zoom in, which I can't, uh, we're putting a storm water to catch there, which would be the equivalent of this section here, which runs down, I believe that is Kensington.

Is that right, Kenzie?

Kensington trace development.

Pull it up.

Uh Kingberry.

Oh, that is yeah.

No, Kingberry is the next one.

No, that's but not.

So it goes into there, and then you can see how the natural flood zone that's down in that section already.

If you move over this back section here where the townhomes are at, well, that's because that that eastern quadrant also the same, it flows back towards the interstate.

So that's where we got it, you know, catching for the most part.

And then you've got the streams here that run down because you can see the buffer that's already in there.

You can see that runs through coventry, uh, coventry, I believe that is, and runs down into Weaver Dairy.

Uh, this little section here that's their leg, believe it's roughly about four acres.

That one in that section, we've got a stormwater pond that'll be a retention pond.

And then we also have uh some you know underground stormwater detention as well to kind of you know mitigate the amount of rain uh runoff.

And um, so there's one place where a road is going over the stream and other places where it's going just over the R C D.

Where show where the roads are going over the R C D.

Uh, where they're going over on the R C D that would be your thing said two or three places.

Yeah.

CP quote is here where we're doing the connectivity road.

You can see there from the difference of the buffers, right?

I mean you can see where the streams are.

You can see how those are kind of running back.

Then you have the 50 foot, then you have the 150 foot buffer.

So you can see where the the that section right there where we're doing that road connecting, and then to bring it up, because what you didn't want is you didn't want one long strip, right?

You wanted to be able to kind of break up that road in that away.

You know, it's also why we put the pedestrian islands kind of in that road to kind of just you know mix it up a little bit to slow you down naturally.

It's the same reason why we did the turns that we did the way that we did was to kind of break up that natural if somebody's driving, keep them from a long straight road.

And so you have to kind of cross it.

So that would be where we're crossing the R C D there.

And is that over the stream or not?

I haven't dug that far into it, but we've got we've hired SMNG, uh, a civil engineering group that that focus on that, and they're working on that plan and and how to actually attack that.

Okay.

So the gray line at the bot, yeah, at the bottom of that group of units over on the right side.

Is that a road, an internal road?

Are you in?

I'm assuming you can see the hand you're talking about.

This not that one, but the one below is this one?

Yes.

That's the multi-purpose path.

Oh, that's the path.

Yeah, so I mean, what I like about this project uh the most is if you lived over here, uh you could actually hop up here and be on this multi-purpose path and run it all the way down.

And um the way that it's designed is you don't have any conflicts with cars.

So you're not worried about driveways, you're not worrying about stoplights, you're not worried about cross sections or anything.

So yeah, that's the multi-purpose path that we've been seeing.

What does that connect to?

Uh it connects to the Harris Heater grocery store section.

So if once you leave your property, how far is it on that path to Harris T or to the Well, if so again, I'm assuming that you can see my cursor, this is Union, this is uh university old university station road.

Yeah.

That comes out.

So there's already a path that starts right there, and that's where the apartments are.

And there's already, I believe, some medical office and whatnot.

So exact distance, I don't know.

I mean, but you're how far a walk to get groceries from the end of your property.

From the end of their property, it's just yeah, it's the neighboring property over is the shopping center.

Yep, somewhere between six to eight minutes.

And how long does it take to walk the property?

It depends on the your shape and condition, I guess.

I mean, I'm 6'3 and my son's five's six.

I mean, or my son's four-six, so I mean, I don't know.

So, how long does it take you to go from one end to the other?

I walk fast.

I'm you know, um five minutes.

I've walked the property in its current condition.

Yeah.

I mean, I've walked the sewer line from here all the way into the center space.

I mean, it takes me I mean 10 minutes, maybe.

And that's with us me walking with the fact that the my only path is a sewer line.

Any other technical questions?

Okay.

Why don't we have to just wonder what what is the total acreage of this property?

Total acres is 45 acres.

45.

45.

Okay.

All right.

Why don't we hear from the public?

Yeah, we're gonna try to be uh Curtius said the three-minute mark.

Cool.

All right.

Um so starting from the right and in the front.

Um if you would uh like to comment, ma'am.

Okay, strategies I went up there.

Uh if not, then I went up there.

Yes.

No, what I couldn't even really tell the difference back in there.

So I'll see you all kind of.

Yeah, it's not green.

Good evening, uh my name is Hank Elkins.

I'm retired from the School of Public Health, the Columbia University in New York.

And uh I speak about the concerns of health.

Because there's all of us in Chapel Hill are going our way toward death, but when the green reaper swings its signs prematurely, and we lose too soon, those who are working productively, those who may be in the process of giving birth, those who have not yet started school, we all in Chapel Hill lose.

And it's in this sense that for those who live close to the source of pollution in I-40, we'll have a disproportionate loss of life and loss of ability.

And these are facts that are undisputed from data all around the world.

The American Heart Association calls air pollution the world's leading environmental health hazard.

And the mechanism for health effects are now well understood that the alter fine particles.

Seeep from the lungs into the bloodstream and affect multiple organs.

So that for air pollution near I-40, we will have a dis and we do have already a disproportionate number of heart attacks and strokes of reduced lung capacity and dementia.

Cancer is another problem.

The level now which is updated threshold for the World Health Organization, it was disproportionately high for those who had suffered from air pollution.

The I-40 pollution from ultra-fine particles and nitrogen dioxide is not going away in spite of electric vehicles.

It would be honest for an agent or a salesman for this property to say to prospective inhabitants look, before you leap.

Here the risk of death and disability are higher than if you lived elsewhere.

But the amenities are great and the price is right.

But I suggest that the committee not wait for an agent to talk realistically about risks, because now there's a time for the planning committee.

Now the town council to say no.

The health of our citizens is more precious than whatever coins we might collect from taxes.

This is not an appropriate place for residential building.

Thank you.

I think Josh is doing the timing, so keep an eye out for his hand.

Just to get good people.

Two, upland conservation land.

The applicant requests approval to disturb 52% of the upland conservation land, the RCD.

The regulation is 40% maximum.

Land is designated conservation land for a reason.

We should respect that.

Three, recreation space.

The applicant requests approval to allow an unspecified amount of recreation space on conservation land.

The regulation is that all recreation space must be outside the conservation land.

Four, plantings under the power easement.

The applicant requests approval to eliminate the plantings in the 136-foot-wide power easement.

Why?

I don't know.

Are these several acres going to be bare compact soil?

Impermeable pavement.

And number five, the I-40 buffer.

The applicant requests intrusion of up to 50 feet in the I-40 100-foot buffer in multiple places, they say in their application.

That would mean cutting down a lot of trees in the buffer.

Even at a hundred feet, you can easily hear and see I-40 through those trees.

I have been there.

Two more quick things.

Neighbor's interest.

There is in the statement of papers tonight saying there has been little interest from the neighbors.

Few telephone calls.

I think you can tell by the number of people here tonight, the numbers that were here last February, that we are interested.

And we have made phone calls.

And I am sorry to say that they were often unreturned.

And I was sorry about that, but finally we got the documentation.

And traffic management, more work needs to be done.

The traffic management study does not include issues to related to Essex Drive, our road into Coventry with 50 houses, and there's a street on the other side of Weaver Dairy from us Cross Creek with another 20 to 25 houses.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Hello, I'm Lois Hallett.

I'm a retired uh science teacher and a resident of Carroll Woods.

And I live in the Coventry, that little part that's near the green leg that comes in from Weaver Dairy.

I will talk about that southeast section of this proposed development.

It has the densest canopy of trees.

I believe in the whole, the holes thing, you know.

That narrow leg that runs from Weaver Dairy to the main part of the proposed development.

The South Lake has slopes of varying steepness.

Some are the maximum allowed for development way beyond the maximum allowed for development.

The slopes on the side of the hill that runs from south and east.

It runs towards Coventry, so that runoff would go toward Coventry and then Carroll Woods, and eventually right into the center of Chapel Hill.

This land, this little leg of land is covered with mixed forest of tall trees, uh 50 years old with an understory of younger trees and shrubs.

And as you are aware, our weather has shown a climate trend of warming.

Warm air holds much more water, of course.

And some recent rain events have resulted in record uh runoff and flooding.

So what helps mitigate that flooding in Coventry and beyond?

Well, forest, in my opinion, especially forest on hillsides, those steep slopes, especially the forest really close to us.

Now, how does that forest help?

In many ways, the forest is a huge sponge.

It's expert at slowing down and absorbing rain.

First, the rain has to penetrate through that dense upper canopy, and we really do have a beautiful canopy.

The branches and leaves and it has to go through all that and the understory and uh through several inches of leaf mulch that's down there on the ground and into that permeable earth below.

The roots hold on to the soil and eventually absorb the water.

The forest floor is uh filled with nooks and crannies on that slope.

It is very ups and downs, vernal pools, pits, all of that holds the water back.

If development on the land goes forward, this superpermeable land turns into concrete, roads, and roofs.

I mean, I don't really see any much green space in there.

There is this pond or retention pond, and I don't believe that will be enough.

So what's left will be about 100% in my opinion, impermeable.

Our beautiful forest also provides a cooling effect in the summer.

So important habitat for many species, carbon sequestration, and of course, oxygen that we all have to breathe.

So we want a strong.

We all want to build a strong and resilient community.

That's one more sentence.

I believe these communities that work that are strong and resilient, work with nature and not against it.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I'm gonna take more than three minutes, thank you.

I served on the planning board for six years here.

I live at 101 Essex Drive in Coventry.

I've lived there about nine months.

Want to point out that I was the director of facilities at UNC Chapel Hill for 23 years, 92 to 2015.

State entities are required to bring their projects before local municipalities.

That's very unusual.

So I was the university rep during what was called the dynamic decade from 2000 to 2010 when we put over two billion dollars worth of facilities into place or six million square feet.

I served as the applicant's rep, i.e.

UNC, for over 100 projects, and I'm familiar therefore with the process here in Chapel Hill.

I have masters in civil engineering and management, and also I'm a PE Professional Engine in uh North Carolina.

So I took a few minutes to give you a little background that I'm not necessarily a quack, okay.

Uh the property that's uh in question uh is a very difficult site.

If we look at the property in Chapel Hill that's left to develop, there is no good property left candidly, and so they have a very difficult requirement, and I would like to add that the town's project manager up until recently was uh not a very good representative of Chapel Hill.

He didn't return calls, and he was very inattentive to our requirements.

There's some uh fundamental problems with this uh development as put together and as submitted.

First is and foremost in my mind is access to Weaver Dairy Road.

They have the applicant has thank you.

I know it's three minutes.

You can put it down now.

First is the uh access onto Weaver Dairy Road, which hasn't been adequately addressed.

There is going to be a real problem with access, particularly on the east end, the east entry.

And as an example, and I won't take any more time of your time.

We really appreciate your time that you devote to the process.

But if you just take that small parcel of the overall parcel that goes north-south and has access on the east end, uh, it exists between Coventry and the church that's uh available next door to the West.

If you just look at that, they've put the road to the east on that segment, whereas if they shifted it to the west and then move their townhouses over to the east, it makes for a better neighborhood for Coventry, but they haven't done that.

And you can go through their application, and you know that they're cramming as much onto that property as is possible with lots of exceptions.

So I won't take any more of your time.

You can put your hand down, sir.

And uh appreciate all that you do.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yes, I didn't want to make sure the left side of the frame doesn't get a chance to have me to go on bark back.

My name is Charles Hennage, and I have been a homeowner in Chapel Hill for 50 years.

And I live uh 120 Silo Drive, which is in Cedar Hills.

That's um uh uh south of the east end of this development project.

Uh one of the things that I did before I moved into my current neighborhood is I lived in Lake Forest.

Lake Forest has Eastwood Lake, and I do the water testing for Eastwood Lake.

Now, when I first bought my first home in Chapel Hill, um the university uh managed all of the utilities and they managed the town.

The town, despite the fact that this town has been occupied since 1754, it was incorporated in 1975, and in the first five years after it was incorporated, we created Owasa and we created a water plan for the community, and we created a protected watershed for University Lake, which was the final reservoir for the city.

Now I lived uh, like I said, in Lake Forest before I moved to the neighborhood I live in now in Eastwood Lake, which is a lake that is owned by that community but was actually developed by the CCC in the 1930s, um, happens to have water quality that's very comparable to University Lake.

That's extremely rare in the whole United States.

There's not very many places where you have an urban lake that has water quality that is a reservoir quality.

So that's something that happens there.

Now, University Lake and Eastwood Lake basically are you know at the bottom of a watershed, and all of University Lake's watershed is protected.

It changed farming in the western part of Orange County to do that.

But in terms of Eastwood Lake, it's a private neighborhood lake.

It's watershed includes two streams, primarily two surface streams, uh, one of which is Cedar Fork Creek.

This is the top of that watershed.

This project and the strip that's been being discussed right now, which is that little area adjacent to Coventry, between Coventry and uh St.

Benedict, the church, um actually the top end of the watershed for Cedar Fork Creek.

Cedar Fork Creek is one of the two tributaries to Eastwood Lake.

Eastward Lake, by the way, feeds into Booker Creek, which is the main contributor to the Blue Hill District and the flooding that went on in Eastgate.

So this is the top of the watershed at which Blue Hill is the bottom of.

So this watershed area needs to be protected, and anything that increases the imperviousness and the discussion that we've had of that little strip is a good example of the impervious problem that we have there, is that this increases the likelihood of flooding.

I've been the personal victim of this, and the town has not been responsible or responsive to my requests on that, but I've I've been flooded twice since they widened Weaver Dairy Road in 2015.

Um both of those come from that particular runoff that runs from that area, uh runs through a retention pond that is now on Carroll Woods property, comes down along Cedar Hills Drive.

And uh I and several of my neighbors have had increased problems with flooding.

I've had two devastating floods that have done major damage.

So this is not just a hypothetical situation.

This is something we don't need.

This is the wrong thing for us to be doing.

One of the reasons I moved here 50 years ago was because I felt that this was a community that was committed to sustainability.

This is not consistent with constainable development.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Hello.

I'm Tommy Best.

I'm the vice president of operations for Carroll Woods.

And based on what I'm going to talk about, my credentials, I'm an arborist, landscape contractor, building contractor, and have experience building stormwater devices and maintaining them.

First of all, Carroll Woods, you know, we want to balance being a good corporate citizen and a good neighbor, and but still advocate for our best interest.

And what I'm advocating for is protecting the stormwater basin.

And we have a ephemeral stream that runs between Coventry and Carroll Woods.

And I'm I've been worried in the past about the amount of the volume of water and this velocity that it travels through there and the erosion, and there's big trees along this stream.

And you mentioned tropical depression Chantal, and that was certainly eye-opening.

We had significant flooding from Chantal.

And the amount of water that went through that ephemeral stream, there was erosion, undercutting.

We had a large tulip poplar fall on one of our cottages.

Fortunately, it fell very slowly, so it was not catastrophic damage.

But it'll still significant financial damage.

Yeah, I guess that's what I'm asking for analysis and design, make sure it's we can come up with something that protects our drainage basin.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Good evening.

I live in Coventry at 118 Essex Drive along the intermittent stream.

I want to just restate some things that probably are pretty obvious.

But if you have a 12-inch rainfall, and you have an acre that's 300 and 325,000 uh gallons, 851 gallons per acre foot.

I don't know how many how many uh acres this development in Coventry and north of us by the includes in this drainage area.

I was thinking maybe a hundred feet, a hundred acres, but maybe it's more like 50 feet that come into the intermittent stream through in part through Coventry from the West.

Uh that amount would amount to 16 million gallons of water.

Now we talk about installing uh underground uh storm water storage.

I would like to know what what the capacity for these really are.

I mean, chances are you're gonna have water standing in this, you know, not just stormwater, just rain run water runoff that will be in these uh underground storage devices.

So the capacity, whatever they might say it is, what is it really?

Same way with the ponds.

Okay, the there's gonna be water in the ponds just from normal runoff.

So what's the capacity really for uh storm when storms uh hit?

So that's basically uh what I'm trying to say is that how are they gonna really be able to maintain um control that uh runoff from uh big storms that we will we will be having, and are we going to be creating another um camelot apartment situation in Coventry?

Thank you.

Good evening, planning board, okay permission members.

I'm Chris Burnt.

And wait a minute.

Oh well, Bob's gonna do that next.

Okay.

Thank you.

Um I'm Chris Burn, and I live at 104 Essex Drive.

Um, a little bit down further from the previous speaker, and we live immediately uh downstream of the stream that's shown on the map on the very eastern side in uh Carroll Woods.

Wanted to talk about two different areas tonight.

One that transitional area, it's called the leg, where um it immediately adjoins Coventry.

Um we've now lived there about a year and a half in Carroll Woods, so we're still learning the area.

But the um main thing I wanted to point out, among other things is that the future land use plan map shows the area, this leg as a um transitional area, and I think the applicant hasn't sufficiently uh talked about what that means on the future land use plan map.

Um is designated that way because the the area is supposed to have harmonious transitions to existing residential, and it's supposed to mitigate undesirable impacts of that development on the adjoining property.

And I think that the planning commission really needs to consider that very carefully that hasn't been sufficiently uh taken into account, and I think more work needs to be done with the neighborhood on this point.

Uh in particular, I think it's been mentioned, I think by Bruce Romberg, I think moving the road location to the west side uh not uh would enable first of all the church property to be served by a future development, so you wouldn't have two adjoining uh um properties with their own access in the future.

Um and that would also help with harmonious transitions to Coventry.

Also, the applicant has not provided any elevations for the townhomes that would go there, so we have no way of knowing how the architectural forms uh of those buildings would be compatible with Coventry, but I think a lot needs to be done, and these stipulations in ordinance A actually say that the Community Design Commission cannot review these elevations, and that was very disturbing to me personally, having served on the Community Design Commission for many years.

Then the other area I wanted to mention was the level of service F.

If you look in the traffic impact statement, so far nobody has mentioned that the access off of the site, the area one, which is uh immediately adjoining Coventry.

The traffic impact analysis says that it will be a level of service F.

So that means um traffic coming in and out onto Weaver Dairy is gonna serve, it's gonna flunk.

It will not work.

And the only way it does work is with a signal.

And the stipulations in ordinance A say that um you don't have to get NCDOT approval until I believe the um 115th unit.

Well, by then it's too late.

If you don't get DOT's approval, uh, and there's no signal, then the traffic flunks.

It's just not acceptable.

So I think that needs to be looked at very carefully, and the signal should be approved before the council uh lets the project go ahead.

Also, we don't know about the westbound Weaver Dairy Road right turn lane.

Um there's a significant buffer right now that Coventry has, and there's no way to know how that turn lane in 100 feet is going to affect uh the current berm and buffer.

So what's the plan?

Where's we how can you see what's being done?

Finally, I'd suggest construction provisions to add it to ordinance A to mitigate construction impacts like noise, dust, hours of construction, all those nothing's mentioned.

I have four general comments that I'll just quickly talk about.

Um I support those people who have said the I-40 buffer needs to be protected as is.

It's a key part of our entranceway beauty in Chapel Hill.

It's very important.

This is not really a mixed-use project.

Uh the commercial may never be built.

The council may never require that it be built.

Uh I thought that was very disturbing that these two modifications to the regulations, uh, the I-40 buffer and for the mixed use should not be allowed as presently uh presented.

And I think the site needs another access point somewhere in the middle.

It would have to be negotiated to take off the impacts on our end of the property.

And finally, stormwater.

Um, in light of the recent storms, uh designing the project to serve a hundred-year storm, just simply I don't think we'll cut it in the future.

We're gonna have to think about 500 or even 1000.

I support all the comments that have been made about needing to really study stormwater in the area uh as it affects Coventry and Carroll Woods.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Hi.

My name's Bob Burnt, and I'm a resident of Carroll Woods, and I live in at 106 104 Essex Drive in Coventry.

I have my comments relate to the relationship between and the buffer between Coventry and the proposed project on those at this site access one.

First, as far as the tree canopy, I recommend that the proposed project be revised to preserve more of the existing tree canopy between Coventry, the Coventry neighborhood, and the project.

The staff report for the project says that the project maintains significant amounts of existing tree canopy along its eastern boundary.

Between the Coventry and the proposed project, there's a 10-foot buffer proposed on the east side of the project along the road.

And is too narrow and should be increased to provide adequate buffer for Coventry residents.

The road noise and the view of the traffic will adversely affect the homeowners in Coventry.

An overhead power line is located along the east side of the buffer.

And no plantings are allowed in the easement for that power line.

Therefore, the space for planting the proposed canopy trees, uh understory trees and shrubs that are shown on the plans will be less than 10 feet.

The trees will be serious severely trimmed by Duke Energy, which will adversely affect the appearance of the buffer vegetation.

Based on the site plans, the buffer could be increased by eliminating the extra parking spaces, parallel parking in front of the townhomes and along the access road.

The width of the greenway is now 14 feet, and it seems to me it doesn't need to be more than 10 feet.

And finally, the simplest and the best way to increase the buffer is to reduce the number of townhomes in this section of the project and to provide more space for buffer.

Provided, and I think that some trees should be planted there and um to provide screening for those three units of Coventry that uh are not shown to receive any buffer.

Thank you.

Do we have a do we have any folks who wish to speak after this gentleman?

All right.

I'm Scott Barrows.

I live at 110 Cedar Hills Drive.

Um across the street from Chuck.

Uh every drop of water that comes off of this property goes on to my property.

And it comes through Coventry down to me, and it c or it comes through the um uh storm drains on Weaver Dairy that it would dump into when it goes down the roads that they uh build and drains into weaver dairy down the storm drains, that comes right to me.

Obviously with Chantel, we had some issues, and it was a uh uh significant situation in uh our property and many adjacent all the way down to uh Eastwood Lake and beyond.

Um it is a shame to make that worse.

I mentioned to Ernie that you know anything he does that isn't doesn't solve the Chantel like problems for that property is making my property less valuable and worse.

And so I want you to think about how the negative impact to existing people is a significant issue, even if they aren't adjacent, but also to the ones that are adjacent and have been there for a while.

I do think as everybody said, uh little strip there tends to be most of what you got the comments on, and reducing density and reducing impervious surface, making sure that that stormwater plan for whatever comes off that property is Chantel proof would do a whole lot to um making a lot of what's been said here tonight more um reasonable.

Uh and um yeah, I think that could be done without having a totally negative opinion on uh or impact on the total development.

Thank you.

Sorry, I had one thing.

I forgot that I had the present slide presentation and uh um can I go to full screen?

Uh it is full screen.

Well, yeah, but I would just go through the slides.

Yeah, and they should be full screen for the folks who are uh seeing it.

This is just the oh god, I'm sorry.

Okay.

Um, let me find my mouse.

Is it is this mouse work?

No.

Okay.

All right.

All right.

The first slide is um showing um the proposed 10-foot buffer area from Weaver Dare um from Weaver Dairy Road, and you can see the power pole in there, and there's also a clear significant clearing, but the um the site under the just to the right of the yellow line is is a group of homes that are gonna that are right, um have very little buffer behind them.

Uh the lots are very small.

This next slide, um the next slide is the front view of the um those units, and all the trees you see in the background, the tall trees, the dark green ones are gonna be gone, um, taken out.

Um the same is true.

Um, this is the other end of that, and the trees in the foreground.

The Coventry is a very has a very good trees tree protection, and right now it's um protected on the west side by the existing undeveloped land.

Um, and this is the um backyard of those homes, the power line you can see right here.

All the trees on the other side of the power line are going to be cut down.

Um this is a close-up of that area.

It's a and um this is the upper part of the site.

Again, we have significant tree canopy, very tall trees.

Um, and then the last slide is the back area there with uh very nice um shade shade plantings, but um everything between these two trees is gonna be cut down as part of the um existing tree canopy that is going to be removed as a result of the project.

So thank you for the patience with thanks for the slideshow.

That's excellent.

I went and visited the property, but definitely it was too big to see the whole thing.

So before we bring it back to the planning commission, I'm just curious if the developers would like to respond to anything they heard, not required.

Just give me the opportunity.

I mean, I'm happy to discuss any comments that you want me to respond to.

Well, we'll we'll have our own.

I'm just saying if there's anything you heard that because they brought up a lot of points that you feel like you want to say you don't have to.

This is just I'll hold off and wait for yours.

The only thing I would say is like uh where it was said that nobody's responding to them.

Uh I've gotten I've gotten zero emails and zero.

I think they said the town staff.

Okay.

I was about to say I've gotten one person that reached out to me.

Yeah, and it was a threw another person that said it.

I called them within 30 minutes.

That's the only comment on that.

Okay.

All right.

Um, do you want to put up is that still helpful?

Yeah.

Oh, well, it's right there.

Uh-huh.

So for those of you who haven't uh been to a planning commission meeting when we've done this, we've talked a lot about the complete community, which the town passed this strategy, and it it's this idea that when we develop an area, it should uh be livable, walkable, green, uh close to transit to try and really um uh develop more consciously, and we have pulled out a series of these.

I think in the presentation we saw many of these, and we found that it's instead of just randomly asking questions and discussing that we would try to focus down on these topics that the town is identified as important, some of which um require trade-offs, they're not all uh they don't all work together always.

So um John has started this just to help us move along.

The idea is we want to go through each of these categories and then think about what what we've learned and what we might recommend for each.

Do you want to leave this?

Sure, and maybe we could um bring in some of the um substance of the public comments and questions as where they belong in the analysis.

We try to make this most of the categories um we will convey this to the town council with whatever recommendation that we end up voting on, reasonably distinct most of the categories, and we try to make it um also reasonably comprehensive.

So I think there is a place to slot in most everything that was discussed.

So the first um categories land use efficiency.

And um, so I just pre-populated some of the facts earlier today, so reading through the materials.

Um it's 14 to 16 units an acre, depending on exactly how many units within the range are built, but it's um it's an odd shaped lot, multiple RCDs.

If the project disturbs 30, let's say that was Ernie's uh estimate, then we're talking 21, 24 units per disturbed anchor acre.

Um frame of reference, Coker Place, Somerset North Estes.

That's about 14 an acre, or is it about 27 an acre?

So in the middle.

So these are gonna be sort of comments and questions.

Exactly what of the 45 acres, how much is in are you building on?

Well, there's disturbed and there's you know impervious, right?

So there's disturbed that we're putting in, and what I said was 30 acres would be disturbed, and roughly 18 acres would be impervious.

And right now, how much is impervious?

It's it's all woods.

Yeah, okay.

Um, I'm sorry, yeah.

Sorry about that.

Given the shape of the site, challenges presented.

They just went off I would say there's at least sufficient density, which is the point of this.

Is there sufficient density?

There's I don't think there's a problem on the that this is on the low end.

I think it's oh at least sufficient.

Okay.

Okay, next category.

Mix of housing unit sizes configurations that address the town's affordability goals.

Um just to review the facts real quick.

10% affordable rentals, 80% AMI for 30 years, 15% of the townhomes designated affordable split evenly between 65 and 8% for 99 years.

Multi, as Ernie said, tonight multifamily component includes studios through three bedroom units, town homes or three or four bedroom units.

I didn't catch what the square footage is were on the town homes, assuming it's you know, in mostly in the 2000s.

No, the way it's laid out now, the range that we had was around uh low end would be up 1200, high and 2200.

The larger larger larger units are on the on the end caps, smaller units on the uh in the interior and students studios, one bedroom, two bedroom, three.

You've got a range of the city.

No, but you're talking about town homes.

Town homes.

The townhomes are uh three and free and four bedrooms.

Yeah.

And are the the town homes a rental or for purchase?

For sale.

For sale.

Yep, the monthly multifamily of the rentals.

And are you all going to uh for the rentals?

Are you are you building this and then handing it off?

No, I'm not a merchant developer.

That's not what we'd plan on doing.

Okay.

So what do you do?

I've yet to figure that out.

Are they are they gonna manage it once they build them?

We basically we we work as the developer, right?

We find the site, we look at the conditions of the site, we lay it out, master plan it, and then from that process we go through the process with with the town, and then previously, you know, we we break ground and then sorry, uh we break ground, build it, lease it up, and own it.

Okay.

I would just interject real quick.

Thank you for putting up with our microphone issues.

We're we're your COVID planning commission folks.

We've had very few meetings in here, so we're we're getting used to it.

Okay.

Um, do you want me do you want to type and I'll keep going or go ahead.

So um category number two, mix of units.

I mean, it seems to me that it's a pretty good mix.

In the multifamily, it's a good mix, and actually I've a surprisingly small average square footage of the townhomes for townhomes.

It's about as small as you can make it.

Um they are.

Uh you know, everybody, I mean, candidly, most of the home builders I'm talking to, everybody's trying to figure out how to grab that you know, buyer pool that everybody's trying to grab.

And right, you know, with construction costs, it's you know, making things smaller.

Right.

Normally we hope you don't say of 3,000 square foot townhomes.

That actually happened a couple years ago.

So that's good.

Um other questions from I'm sorry, comments from other commissioners on that topic before we go on to the next one.

Yeah.

Okay.

Category three, walkability and bikeability to daily needs, such as housing jobs, schools, recreation.

So there's a greenway proposed around along the frontage on the south side property, connecting to Carroll Woods, um on the east all the way to Chapel Hill North shot apartment shopping center on the uh west side.

The properties usually walkable to Chapel North, Timberline, East Chapel Hill High, Cedar Falls Park.

So I thought, yes, it is walkable and bikeable.

It is walkable.

I um someone pointed out it's very nice to have this greenway that will connect, and this is obviously important, but perhaps given the issue with impervious and also it going through RCD, maybe we should request a smaller greenway, not a 14-foot one.

10 versus 14.

Yeah.

I'll say the 14 was at the request of town staff.

Is that is the standard that we are looking to meet for all future greenways?

Um if you request it, we would need to ask the developer to modify the town's design manual so to lower the standard.

But can't we ask that the town waive this given the trade-off with impervious surface and how important this uh that can be part of your recommendation?

That would just be uh another thing that the developer would need to ask for an exemption on the town rules on.

Okay.

And just to add too, that's it's a very long section of greenway.

And if the town were to try to build that much greenway on our own, it would not be funded for many, many years.

Like it's uh it's a really good feature of this project.

Um and I think if we're talking about um one of the comments about the the incursion in the R C D.

Greenways are if I'm not mistaken, allowable in the R C D.

So I think it would be helpful for um the the package to to council clearly separating out roads and greenways, um, because road incursions into the RCD, unless I'm mistaken, are are technically a little different than greenways in the upland portion of the RCD.

I don't know if Josh you can speak to that, but uh putting them together to me is is not clear.

Yeah, uh I can talk to Taz, who's the case planner on this and and see if we can clarify before council.

Okay.

Um any other comments on number three.

Um for um the town encourages mixed use development on in large developments such as this.

So um, as far as I'm aware, the cent um Ernie is set aside as central area, about seven acres reserved for future commercial development, no commitments made there.

And I think Ernie also mentioned uh I should call you Mr.

Brown, I'm sorry.

Uh possibility that multifamily buildings could have ground level retail.

I wondered uh if you could elaborate on what you're thinking is there, what's likely to happen and when for the multifamily portion, I mean that's a little bit easier to kind of amenitize that ground floor that both you know the area could use and the multifamily.

Uh the space where I've kind of been not trying to be coy or vague, it's just that I got a lot of ideas for it.

Where it's at, it's really gonna depend on like how often is how often are people really using that multi-purpose path there, how little we really connect to the office buildings there.

I really don't want to park it.

I prefer to kind of have more of like a park-like feel than to feel like a small little outparcel shopping center that's you know, technically, I mean, most retail would make the most fence would be to put it down there on Weaver Dairy where it re you know the traffic is, but I didn't want a car-centric type retail use.

I wanted something that felt a little bit more unique and different.

So that's why we're kind of really wanted to see how that kind of shapes out and see what ideas we get.

I it's just a lot of people to not have any.

Now they could walk to Hare's Teeter or the Pizzeria there, Pops, or so it's not far, but it does seem like if this is built to scale, this is a whole community that you're you're putting in there, and to have no commercial does seem like most people hop in the car every time they want to even go get a cup of coffee.

So it does seem to be missing in my opinion.

I wonder if what's the minimum that you think you could commit to without spending a lot of money to put in a fancy, you know, retail component on the flex space.

Is there some sort of in-between that's like, well, there could be a space for something useful that's not that's not terribly expensive and that's isn't necessarily um permanent?

I would think from a feasibility standpoint of you know it working, you would probably want to start off with something more kind of in the apartments, and then how well that's being utilized, and then work your way towards that centerpiece, right?

Because it's kind of in a way, it's gonna have to be townhomes done, phase one of the apartments done, and then that kind of as the second phase is going on there.

Because you're right, you need enough of a population for something to be viable, right?

It's not just me putting something there, but can somebody actually operate out of it and you know make a living off of it?

So there's just a lot of components to it that are gonna have to be a little bit of an orchestra to kind of play into.

And then, like I said, a lot of it, I think the center piece, the reason why I'd put it there was because I thought, okay, if I can get a clear pedestrian connection standpoint with the office users, well, I've got morning people that are probably gonna want to use the multi-purpose path to get out and walk around or whatever if they're stuck in their office.

And so that gives you that kind of the daytime traffic, and then you've got the obviously the evening people with both those sets, not only with the housing we're building, but the housing that's already there, especially when it starts as the multi-purpose path connects and the everywhere to everywhere plan really comes together, you know, you can go you can be at Weaver's Grove and make your way over here.

So that's that's kind of the idea.

It's kind of like see how it kind of works.

Let's see how people are utilizing it.

You know, and really the telltale will be like how often I see people on the on the on the bike lanes and the pike paths and all that kind of stuff, and let it organically kind of happen versus me trying to program it.

How much retrofitting if it doesn't happen for five years?

I mean, how hard is that gonna be to bring in commercial if you've already sort of committed these areas to residential uh you mean if I would want to multifamily buildings, like the first floor?

Yeah, I mean the multifamily buildings wouldn't take hardly any at all.

I mean, you usually use that as amenity spaces anyways, and so using it like the previous group, you know, as well, they're on MLK, and so them talking about having bodegas and all that stuff makes a ton of sense because they're right there facing a main road and on the BRT.

This is a little bit different in that I'm not so obvious to go to it, right?

So it's in that's why it's I'm saying it's gotta be kind of organic.

How often are people actually using it before we just try to throw up a building and hope they come kind of thing?

Okay.

Okay.

Um category five, access to transit.

So from the materials were within 10 minute walk of the NS bus and five minutes of the T bus.

I saw in the pro proposed ordinance, uh, ordinance A requires um the developer to improve the existing bus stop or an existing bus stop.

So I think yes, there is access to transit is pretty good.

Category six.

Um we have an obsession with parking.

Where should we talk about the road placement that came up many times?

I would say number eight, respect for surrounding neighborhoods.

Okay.

All right.

Um we're really interested in parking.

Um because it drives a lot of behavior.

Um so I think the facts here are that I was just looking at the what's called the district plan, which seen this show 950 to 1100 multifamily parking spaces um in the west side, and then so that translates for for the multifamily to 1.81.9 spaces per unit.

Um and then it looked like 30 or 40 surface parking spaces in addition to some small lots and street side um parallel parking um for the townhomes.

And I don't know what the ratio is there.

But um for a frame of reference, the lumo minimum for one bedroom, two, three, four bedroom is one, one point four, one point seven five two, respectively.

So this is on the high end.

Um recall that the first project we heard this evening, they were like one point two, which is really low.

I mean, that's really close to campus, so I wouldn't expect the ratio to be that low here.

But this this is pretty high, pretty pretty far above the minimums.

Is that an accurate reflection of parking?

All I can say is the parking structure hasn't been designed as of right now, so it's a more of a range kind of thing.

And then really what's gonna come down to is the type of units that we use.

I mean, what I typically do on one that it's you know that's not in a true urban urban setting is I try to aim for one parking space per bed, and then call it like 10 to 15 percent of extra fluff.

That's usually my just my rule of thumb that I try to go by is is if you know if a couple is living in a one bedroom or a studio, well, I still count it as one parking space.

I don't count it as two, versus like a lot of times that you see that would be considered not urban, you know, until people started reducing parking or whatnot, it used to be two cars per unit was the re usually rule of thumb.

So anything really less than two cars per unit is actually less than what we used to do previously.

But we are pushing to limit that, and I guess one of the places is not in the parking garage, but um given the focus on impervious surface.

Um would you be amenable to significantly reducing the surface parking?

Or do you feel that's necessary to have a so we have very minimal uh surface parking in the apartments?

Most of it is funneling into the garage.

Uh the majority of where we have, and we've always kind of tried to pull back on that too, is is the fact that it's like, okay, well, what do you we do not for you that are that's living there, but what do we do about like people that are having visitors over?

That's usually the comments that we usually get when we're starting to talk with the home builders who are actually going to be building the homes and selling the homes.

Is the majority of them we're seeing is like, okay, I get it.

I got we have one car, but what about when we have somebody over or other people have other people over?

Where are they parking?

You know, and the majority of the answer is the street, and which is fine, but then you have those kind of issues.

Um I can't remember what the townhouses look like, but you have garages, but then also driveways.

So they have a drive out, yes.

Um they're mixed between a uh front and a rear load.

I don't have a home builder in tow with me, so I don't have any elevations to really show.

What we what we have there is a generic, I believe it's 25 by 50 footprint, and it's just to kind of represent a footprint of a building.

That's why the range is 100 five to 135.

And um have you considered unbundling the parking so that people pay for at least the people in the garage?

On the apartments?

Yeah.

That's perfectly fine with me.

Which part of the purpose of that is to help people who don't have cars not have to pay extra, but also it um just encourages people to have less, and you can actually probably build less under that.

The uh the reason why I like the phasing plan is the first one.

We're basically gonna have a a temporary parking lot, and we can see how building one is utilizing.

Are we underparked?

Are we overparked?

And how close we are gonna do the north-south route.

I believe that in the apartment complex itself is I think I measured that one I did measure was point one eight of a mile.

So that's that was the measurement that I took from the apartment complex.

I would just say that the parking ratios are pretty high compared to the average project that we see, and maybe we could note that for the council.

And that they're minimal to unbundling.

Yeah, yeah, I got that.

Okay.

So the next category is uh quality design place making prioritization of the pedestrian realm.

Um so looking through Brian Peterson's comments as a town's urban designer for those in the audience.

Um he said the green space south of the multifamily buildings, so that's on the southwest side of the property has the potential to become a gathering space.

And uh Mr.

Brown said here tonight that um he doesn't have a specific vision for how the space is going to be used right now, so to see um how people are moving around it and then adjust, right?

Okay.

Um and then uh Mr.

Brown also pointed out some uh green spaces um central within the townhome cluster on the east side of the property.

Um a couple of questions that Brian had that I wanted to follow up on and his comments were um about shade plantings along the greenway and also um the possibility of informal walking trails in the preserved natural area in the east end.

So I believe and uh on that we actually had gone through that multiple times trying to figure out how to landscape that sections, and I'm not mistaken we had issues, and I might have to I'm looking at Wendy because she's also doing by landscape architect, and I was trying not to uh you know drag them into this, but I believe that was the issue that we had on the landscaping and the in the trails where it's it just didn't work.

Were there overhead power lines?

Is that the issue?

Sorry?

Are there overhead power lines along with the greenways?

Actually, we're a fair ways from the overhead power lines, but the problem is that it's the speaking of the mic.

Uh Wendy Ramsden, I'm a landscape architect with uh Thomas Nutton.

So um the real problem is that the Duke power easement is so wide and they don't allow us to put trees in that easement.

We are trying right at the edge of it to put some large shrubs and maybe some understory trees if they're gonna allow that.

Uh we are also adding what we can of plantings between the trail and the and the townhomes.

But there is a there is a stretch where the easement comes so far into our property, and it's where the where the property narrows at such a pinch point that there isn't really space to get any planting in because we can't get out of the easement.

We can't get out of the power easement.

When we get further east, we can put the trees on the side of the side of the trail.

Um, but we can't do it right in the central area, and it's because of the easements.

Those are those cross-country lines with the huge town.

Can you can you uh put them underground?

Those power lines?

Yeah.

Oh goodness, no, they're uh they're the cross-country lines on those enormous highways.

I think they can put them underground.

Eiffel Tower types of towns.

I mean, it'd be very expensive, but then you wouldn't have to do all the other things.

They would still have their power, even even if somebody put them underground, they would still have the 136-foot-wide power easement and they wouldn't allow you to plant in it.

Or not not canopy trees.

As I say, we will put we will put as much as we can into there.

We would also like to have some some more plantings in there, but we're limited by what they'll allow.

Yeah.

Was that where the the image you put up had the little red striped line?

Was that the power line going across the highway?

I think it was my presentation that you used to do.

Oh, that was yours?

Yeah, the different conditions.

And I said, here's the condition that we're trying to work around.

And then going over the highway you had.

Correct.

Okay.

Okay.

So I mean on this element.

It's hard to say because we don't know what it is.

Well, we haven't seen elevations those aren't required by the town anymore at this stage.

Just talking about this.

And um, I mean, the the greenway is a big deal.

Um that is probably the most conspicuous pedestrian-oriented bike oriented feature, which is great.

Um, and there's quite a bit of green space in the property.

We're not sure how it's gonna be programmed, but that's good.

Um, so I don't have a particular problem with this dimension.

It's just sort of um a bit indeterminate, and that's just the way it's gonna be.

I mean, just real quick too, when I when I first saw this thinking about activating under the high line, I thought of Briar Chapel and the trails they have down there and the mountain biking they have done down there, and then also um Johnston Mill Preserve is a great wildflower sanctuary under the High Line there.

So there's there's a number of examples in the area of how you can really activate those those spaces under the high line.

And Briar Chapel and Johnston Mill Preserve really stick out as places I've enjoyed.

Uh I think I'd just add one more thing is that the applicant was willing to consider moving the greenway to provide more shade trees.

Um ultimately staff requested that they place it near the power lines to make the most use of that easement since structures cannot go in that easement.

Um only the green way really could.

Um so ultimately that that was something they did at the request of staff.

Okay.

That makes sense.

Thanks for that.

Okay, other comments should go into the next.

Yep.

Okay, category eight.

Um this may be of interest to people in the room.

Respect of surrounding or for surrounding neighborhoods.

Respect for surrounding neighborhoods is our next category.

Um so I just noted in here for factual uh clarity that the town hose townhouses proposed to border Weatherstone Drive, Coventry, Kensington Trace neighborhoods.

Um those are townhouses.

So looking at it from a 20,000 foot level, it's a compatible use, townhouses next to townhouses.

And then you have the Lakeview Mobile Home Community, which is a bit on the western side of property.

There's a large um 136 foot power easement between them.

So that's not um what I would consider uh compatibility problem.

Um and there's a new road between those two things as well.

That's all I noted.

That's 20,000 feet.

So I think uh this would be a good time to bring in some of the public comments and maybe get Mr.

Brown's reaction to some of them.

Okay, so uh one idea raised was why is on the the leg of the property toward the east that goes down um to Weaver Dairy, why is the internal road on the east side adjacent to Coventry instead of the west side?

Uh the majority of that was basically you know from the previous applicant that came through before me on low water, it was the opposite reaction that the uh the neighbors were saying.

They didn't want the houses right next to them.

They wanted, you know, they wanted a street between them.

So in a way, what I had done was I was reacting to previous ones and trying to design with previous comments from other projects, like the Low Water Project is what I'm discussing.

So that's why we kind of put that there and then kind of created a buffered, you know, separating the two.

Right.

So on the other hand, you have weatherstone drive, I think it's called.

I'd have to look it up on a map and not get it.

I wonder, I mean, is this just kind of like zero sum?

If you move it to the other side, you're gonna presumably get the same comments from them.

No.

W why not?

Okay, so let me ask you this.

Um Mr.

Brown, does it matter to you uh if if the road is on the east side or west side?

Does it create a problem to it?

I mean, the one of the things I was really trying to accomplish was the ability for somebody to turn in on that multi-purpose path and not have any conflicts with cars along the hallway.

So they literally could leave here and go all the way to the end of the property and wouldn't have any conflict with a car until they got to old university station.

Oh, I see.

Yeah.

So I've got three kids, 10, 8, and six.

Yeah.

They get on scooters and bikes, they're gone, they're not paying attention to driveways, they're not paying attention to anything, they're going.

So that was another reason why I wanted that.

I wanted that no conflicts with cars for as long of a stretch as possible.

And that's why on the north side too, you've got the greenway south and the the road north.

Correct.

Same same same thing.

We looked at it both ways.

And if we had ran it across and you know, with that, I was like, okay, you know, you're hitting driveway after driveway after driveway, or you're starting to have more conflicts, and so you know, with the way that it's laid out there and also moving it back, as Josh mentioned, we tried flip-flopping it in a way, and that way it's just the way to again if you're on the multi-purpose path, you're not really having any conflicts with any cars and any or anything.

Right.

Yeah.

Right.

Right.

That's what you're doing.

And just jumping back for commercial, did you think of putting something in that that leg anything in that leg would be car-centric and car focused and drive-through focused?

And that wasn't what I was wanting.

It just it felt that it just it I did I did small retail development before you know getting into this, and you do something there, and you're just calling for somebody to put in a Dunce Brothers coffee or something that's just going to do nothing but add more issues.

So that's not what I was trying to go for here.

Okay, there were also some uh public comments raised about tree buffers and um and also drainage.

We're gonna get we're gonna get to stormwater separate category, but in terms of trees are we on to nine now?

No, no, we're still on uh eight.

I was just wondering if my colleagues have anything they want to say.

Just respect to the neighborhood.

Well um where would this go?

The I guess actually going back to seven, just the issue of it being so close to the highway.

Uh we first person we heard about pollution.

We haven't heard about noise, but I'm curious.

Have you all run what are the pollution levels?

How far down is the highway from where you are?

I mean, I know it's significantly below, but how there's only one little small portion of the townhome portion that the back end of it is is creeping into the hundred foot buffer.

So we're not creeping all the way up to 50 feet.

It's it's just an encroachment on that 51 to 100 feet that we're hitting it a little bit on one of the townhomes.

On the apartment side, we're encroaching it on the on the parking structure.

We're not actually encroaching on it on the building.

Well, I guess the question is more about the effects of you know, I've just saw UC Davis report that shows people living within 600 feet of a highway suffer from uh pollute the pollutants and and internal air quality can be affected.

So I'm just wondering maybe there should be some further study and consider some mitigation.

I don't know if a wall might be needed because a hundred foot buffer of this is mostly deciduous, a mix of probably deciduous and evergreen trees.

I think it's mostly evergreen.

It's not it's not really enough to filter out the pollutants and the noise at that distance 100 feet.

So and we do the town, we seem to be kind of ignoring that aspect of the comp plan, but noise is protecting neighborhoods from noise as mentioned under B green and build housing.

So I'm just thinking if that's something we need to add to our matrix, or um maybe have a future discussion about how the town thinks about this and our process or when when it should be um brought up.

I'm not sure how to sort that out, or that this board is the correct body to do it.

Um in terms of air quality, I'm not even sure that's within the purview of the town's zoning authority.

Um it may or may not be, but we don't have any measurements uh and nor are I think are we prepared to litigate a regulatory taking with a landowner that's near near a highway that we say you can't build anything on it.

Like that that's not how private property rights work.

The tower gets sued for that, and we'd have to you know defend ourselves.

So I triggered the lawyer.

Um it's just a concern.

I think the buffer used to address a lot of without saying we're addressing pollution directly, uh having this buffer near the highway, sort of address those all of those things, um, including I I'm also hearing from the neighbors about their concerns about um flooding, downstream flooding.

We'll get to that.

Yeah, that's um all right.

Let's keep moving.

Okay.

The next category?

Yep.

Okay.

Maintain uh natural landscapes, tree canopy, green space topography, including protected natural areas.

So I I think this uh and 10 in this case come together very closely.

And I think you might point out that there's 17% of the land is new in Pervious.

Um how much is the tree cover once this has all been developed?

It's well above what the what the ordinance requires.

And the ordinance requires 40 percent.

40 percent.

Um so I mean, we've talked a little bit about the tree canopy around just shade trees.

To me, the big issue is how that affects the stormwater issue and the steep slopes, the development in the steep slopes.

Have you all so you're affecting 75% of the steep slopes?

I did see in the materials that the steep slopes are artificial, like this this land was graded a few decades ago.

But it that doesn't mean that it's not still protective.

I mean, okay I'm thinking of the stormwater issues right here.

I see, okay.

I'm not thinking of this as so maybe I should wait until we get to the next one.

We'll wait till the 10.

But um I guess well, so back to the tree cover.

You're um given that this is a big forested area, and just help me out here because we don't have as many maps diagrams to understand what you're doing.

So I'm still trying to wrap my head around this, but would it be helpful if I pulled up these big greens?

Would it be helpful if I pulled up my map?

Yeah, I think that would be helpful.

Is it so is it pulled up now?

Yeah.

So I feel like you're asking about this section over here.

Actually, no, I'm going to the middle.

Go back.

Right there.

What is that green sorry?

Yeah.

What is the green trapezoid?

They're right above the road and above the greenway.

Right in the middle.

That's the flex space, seven acres.

That's just us, that's just highlighting this.

For now, you're gonna just leave that under canopy.

You're not gonna touch it for now, or you're gonna clear it.

For now, it I haven't looked, studied our grading.

We haven't gotten far enough in our grading plan and to understand, but it the presumption would be that we would use this and we would actually clear it to give it some level of like pad ready to give to start giving a sense of place in a way.

Yeah.

And all of those green, that same green color elsewhere are sort of open open fields open.

Correct.

I mean, the majority of what you see right here is you know, if we you guys want to meet up and I'm I don't live far from here, but we could walk it in literally when you walk it, and if you get this picture in your head, you'll know where everything's at, and you can see how it's gonna where it's gonna stay and how it's gonna stay.

Okay.

Um so I guess what I'm just thinking about tree tree cover over the whole.

This is just a very sensitive area being at the top of this watershed.

It's not the very top, but sort of, I mean, I don't have a watershed map here, but I um appreciate what um I think Chris said earlier about this is really what goes down through we talked about going through Cow Woods and the basin down to uh Cedar Forks into Eastwood down Booker Creek, etc.

And so I'm looking at is this really most efficiently using this land and not disturbing the hydrology while still being able to develop a large robust uh dense population.

And so I'd like to know have you tried to avoid the steep areas?

Are you thinking about it?

Uh although we don't know what's happening in each of these, but there's also have you been cognizant of how you've developed it within the topography within the natural setting.

You said if I walked it, maybe it would be clear.

But could you explain what that is?

For example, actually, you know, honestly, if you wanted to go see it, the best place to look at the quadrant that it has the majority of the townhomes is going behind the church.

That's where you can actually see the power line coming in, you can see the power line going across, and you can get a sense and feel for it.

We put the townhomes on this side, not only did you just basically blend in, but that section of this whole entire property is flatter than the rest of it.

And when you look at the back portion over here where we put the apartments, we're working with a slope on how we're we're building that in there.

And so it just works really well with the way we have it laid out and setting out to and work within the topography that we currently are using, or the currently we we were given, I guess you would say.

It would have taken a lot of time to figure out where I was on that.

So I did try.

And I I entered along a gravel road right below where would that have been.

If you came in on the apartment side, is that where you came in at?

I came in below the streets uh standish or something, the next street to the to the east side.

Which are you on the west side or the east side?

It was uh to the east side.

Oh uh so towards Coventry and all that.

That's how you came in?

Yeah, oh not through Coventry, though.

There was just a gravel road off of Weaver Dairy.

Uh, the only uh I don't know all the roads well enough to be able to tell you, but the church does have kind of like a little bit of a gravel road in his back there.

Well, maybe that's what it was.

And the parking lot is grass.

So then it goes if I'm not mistaken, it goes to the townhomes and then over there, then you start getting into the office.

Okay.

All right.

Well, we don't why don't we keep going?

There's really not much left in in this.

And there's stormwater and then there's uh address sustainability.

Yeah.

There's some um all the townhome garages are EV ready, at least five percent of multifamily parking spaces, we'll have EV chargers, all electric buildings, um, etc.

etc.

Yeah.

So I guess the issue that came up more than anything was the stormwater.

And do you want to talk about people seem very concerned?

Yeah, um happy to, right?

Uh it seemed like the majority of the people that came up, we were taking notes, you know, want to understand where everybody kind of lives.

Um I did meet with a couple earlier that the husband came up here and spoke, had met them for coffee, and we walked through this map and I kind of told them on like how we're doing it and what what we're doing.

Um I mean, I don't think there's any real point in discussing the apartment side or the central green space side in too much detail because that wasn't seem to be where any of the comments really came from.

The majority of the comments seem to come from over on this side, right?

Um as you can see, we're not really if we were to be behind uh Coventry or Colony Woods and looking back, nothing's gonna change.

It's gonna be the way that it is.

Uh what you'll see there if is where Coventry is coming down is the stream is there.

Um driven through Coventry, I don't think they have any stormwater management.

So I can put stormwater management in to try to control everything to a hundred year storm on my property and what's happening on our property and have it engineered.

But if the neighboring properties that it's coming down to have no such systems, then I'm only slowing down the inevitable, right?

I mean, if they don't have any way that they're controlling their stormwater, then they're still not going to have any way to control their stormwater.

Right.

Right.

We're not worrying about their problem, but we're worried about if you're adding to the problem, right?

So I'm not a civil engineer, but I believe the way that the stormwater management calculations is ran and us saying that we're doing a hundred-year storm means that we will meet and what the property is currently able to collect if a hundred-year storm were to happen.

And we are not going to make it worse.

Okay.

And uh are you um open to going beyond a hundred-year storm given the critical location of this?

I don't uh I would have to ask a civil engineer if that even exists.

Oh, it does.

There are thousands of things.

I mean, we're we're we'll look it out.

I mean, obviously we're meeting with Dan's group tomorrow.

Yeah we can this can be a part of our discussions about ways that we can do it, but you know that's I mean, we're happy to explore it, and we are committed to you know using the 100-year storm and measurement.

And Josh, do you have the um town engineers looked at this and made any determinations?

I think we're still at the early stage where the buildings have not been engineered, and we just generally know the locations of the SCM so that we know it'll flow downhill.

Um we have not examined the details of the SCMs that would come when Ernie has a builder and is ready to construct.

Got it.

Okay.

Okay.

Are we done?

Do we want to sum up instead of putting these as a group?

Or each per okay.

West you've got to do that.

Well, I just say we have one more presentation that I know I know folks um would like to go home.

Um so yeah, we should figure out how we want to uh proceed um with general comments and then perhaps why don't you give your general comments if you're ready?

Sure.

Um thank you all for coming and speaking and staying late.

I know this is um important to the neighbors to everyone downstream for the stormwater, for those of us way downstream for the stormwater.

Um I'm always continually trying to figure out what our job is here and what our role is here.

Um let's start with the stormwater first.

I want to separate out what this project is required to do by our current ordinance from how we need to look at our stormwater plan as a town, and particularly in this area, the Cedar Fork area.

Um it took us a long time to get from 25 year storage requirements to a hundred year storage uh stormwater requirements.

That was not an easy uh change for us to make, and we recently made it, and we should be um very pleased as a town that we've got the 100-year stormwater requirement because it it didn't happen overnight.

So we're making progress there.

Um this project appears to me that it's meeting the current requirements as far as uh capturing the stormwater for a hundred-year event.

Um I believe the ordinance has language in it that even though it hasn't been designed yet, that if we supported this ordinance at this time, the council would have guarantees in there that it would meet the current requirements.

Now, if we want to have a conversation about changing the requirements, that's a very different thing from looking at this specific project.

Um with stormwater, it I'm trying to find some way that the applicant is not meeting requirements, and I just don't see it.

I see that they're meeting requirements.

Um, like I said, I would love to have it specified out whether it's greenway or whether it's roadway.

Um gentlemen talked when we're talking about the R C D on the north, the buffer to I-40, looking at the map.

Um I'm fine with the parking lot.

I think you know, the small incursion for the parking lot in order to get the units that we need, the housing that we need there is important.

And then on the other side with the town home is okay.

The section in the middle where the trade-off is to keep the greenway without any car intrusion or interaction with cars.

And the road goes into the 100 feet along I-40.

So I think a question would be which is more important to town staff and to the project as far as maintaining the integrity of the greenway, not interacting with cars versus if the greenway was north, the impact on the R C D would be less than a road is one way I'm thinking about it.

But that's a trade-off we'd have to make because having the continuous greenway without interaction with cars is also a benefit.

So a question I have is looking at concerns about the RCD to the north, the buffer.

Um that road section in the middle to me would be the main area where concerns about intrusion into the buffer would would have the most part.

I'm not too worried about the parking lot or the townhomes.

There's a lot of concern about the section um what did what did Chris call it?

The the handle down there in the neighborhood.

Uh again, there are folks who are going to point out that the these folks are putting in stormwater facilities.

Now, whether we know it's going to capture the all the water it needs to capture or not, we have a very good stormwater staff.

And um they should be involved in this project.

I mean, they're they're there to do this work to figure out, you know, if our plan is working.

Right now, the plan is on hold.

We need a community conversation on, you know, what are we going to do about the water that comes down into this neighborhood, your neighborhood, our neighborhoods.

That is part of a community plan that we haven't really discussed yet.

And I'm sure council will pick up first thing in the fall.

Um I don't know what we do about um the buffers.

Where in that section, what specific variance is they're asking for, and if staff have done a thorough analysis of the trade-offs.

And in the document that the staff gave us, we don't have staff evaluation comments.

So I would love to see the staff response to the issues on the reduction in the buffers, how staff feels about it.

I don't see that in the materials.

Let me go back here to see.

The traffic study.

Making sure that Essex Drive is particularly addressed in the traffic study.

That's something that folks mentioned.

Access to Weaver Dairy Road.

Again, helping people understand where in the traffic study these things have been or have not been addressed would be clarifying for the community.

What was the other one?

The westbound turn lane was the other one I heard there.

And then construction provisions.

So I think those are things we could highlight that are concerns from the community on this project.

Okay.

Thanks, Wes.

John, do you have comments?

Sure.

A few comments.

So the project as a whole, I think reasonably addresses the town's um housing goals on a tough site.

I think the parking ratio could be lower.

That would be a recommendation that I would support making to the council.

I came in wondering if we should recommend to the council that they push a little harder and getting some minimum commitment to commercial, but hearing Mr.

Brown speak, I'm just not sure this is the right site.

Um, given it doesn't front on Weaver Dairy Um to require um some sort of commercial component that may just sit vacant.

I'm not sure it would succeed.

So the fact that Mr.

Brown is proposing to have some flex space, um, wait and see space where it could, you know, if the commercial proves to be um feasible there, it could be built out.

I think that's maybe the best we can reasonably ask for on the commercial.

Um we've heard a lot tonight, and I think um we should give the council a heads up in our write-up that they're gonna hear about um a couple issues from the community.

One is the interface um with Coventry in particular.

And I think the issues that I heard there were about um actually I think Chris put it pretty well under the rubric of a transition zone that's shown in the flume.

Um in general, when you have town homes next to town homes, that's broadly compatible, but we have some more nuanced questions about exactly the location of a road, exactly what tree um buffer distance, how many trees are kept and separately um some questions about whether the stormwater um measures that are proposed here are adequate.

Um as Wes said, so that the town has a hundred year stormwater standard.

That's actually a new standard within the last one or two years.

Umbe it's not sufficient.

Maybe it needs to be multiple hundreds of years.

I don't really know.

But given that the town just put in place this standard is something that's supposed to be forward looking.

I'm I'm loath to do a project by project, like pick a number every project.

It's very hard to administer, and I'm not sure it's fair.

Different developers say this property needs to be 200, this property 100.

I think if the town, if it's time for the town to reevaluate that again after one or two years, so be it.

But that has to be a more um formal process than project by project, in my opinion.

Um that's not to minimize the concerns from the community at all.

It's just I think there's a time, place, and manner to re-evaluate that standard, and maybe it's not at this particular meeting.

Um in terms of the nuances of uh whether the tree buffer is sufficient, whether the road location is on the correct side.

Um I would be concerned about having a a bike pedestrian conflict between the road coming in on the west side, let's say, of the property and the um greenway having to cross it.

Um that's that's a trade-off.

I'm not saying it's a reasonable or unreasonable trade-off, it's just a trade-off.

So it's not as simple as just moving the road to the other side.

Um that's a a question we can flag for the council for their consideration.

Um in terms of the trees, I'm not really sure what to say.

There's not a standardized distance in the town code about, oh, you get 20.

Uh if you're in an existing development, you're entitled to 20 feet, 50 feet of trees on land that you don't own.

Um you could have a standard like that.

I'm not saying it would be unreasonable, but we don't have such a standard.

So we're talking about how many trees does a private landowner need to retain on his property that's not owned by the neighbors who want the trees to stay there.

Really tricky issue.

Um I don't know what's what's reasonable.

I I haven't heard any specific standards proposed from the community on that.

So I would say when you go to the council, um, if you want to say it's inadequate, the tree, the tree uh buffer, you gotta have a number of feet that you think is adequate, and then you have to have some precedent elsewhere in town to say, here's what they did here, here's what they did here, and we're within reasonableness because at a certain point, it just becomes like neighbors coming out saying, I don't want trees cut down, but but they don't own the property.

So if you're gonna grow the town and respond to the housing crisis that we're in in this region, we we have to be willing to have trees taken down on on private land that's next to something that already exists.

Um that's just some some feedback and maybe ways to be effective in arguing this to the council.

We're just a volunteer citizen advisory board.

We give recommendations, a lot of them are ignored.

Um, but I think we could be useful here and at least flagging for the council what what the main issues are from the community, what the issues are as we see them and give them, you know, some analysis, and then they're gonna do with it what they will.

I'd like to clarify one thing.

Earlier I I made a statement that I said, oh, the stormwater staff is good.

What I meant to say was we have a professional staff.

That's what I meant to say.

So we apparently have professionals who are on staff who can answer some of these questions that were wondering, is it enough?

Is what we're doing gonna work?

And we need to engage our staff in providing more assurance, more information, and more understanding of this.

So I'm in no position to evaluate whether the work we're doing is good or not, but we do have professional stormwater people that should be involved in this conversation.

And that's what that's what I mean to say.

Libby I don't I don't have anything to add really to Wes and John's very thorough discussions of the project.

Um I'm still a little bit confused about whether I must not have been listening carefully, the preservation of that designated future public space, but if that can whatever, um that turns into we have been looking at how treed space can become passive recreation area if it never becomes suitable to build some commercial space there.

But perhaps when the Greenway gets lots of use, it will uh attract people to some commercial establishments there.

Um anyway, so um that's all good luck with the project.

I would just like to encourage you to consider the parking and other impervious service if there are ways to tweak designs to minimize um to minimize that.

Thank you, Libby.

Um I concur with my fellow PC members.

I will just um and I do think that developing this property is um will offer a lot of housing.

And it's in an area very close to the what is it, North Chapel Hill Mall.

So does have access.

And it is not in, it has a lot of tree cover, but it's not a particularly biologically rich uh area.

And so um that isn't an area that we necessarily need to focus on for that, but I I just in my mind, the one thing that I don't agree with you completely, John, is on stormwater.

I think we are uh yes, it's true the town has a hundred-year standard, which is good, which is what um most towns now are have moved to.

We pretty much know that that isn't gonna be enough.

I mean, that's already uh anyone who studies this, all you had to do was look at Chantal to know that the hundred that the 500 to thousand year uh storms are what we're going to have to be dealing with, not the hundred year.

But that said, what my point is that they're asking for some waivers for things like disturbing 75% of slope, doing various things that will exacerbate a place that is, I believe, but the stormwater professionals on our staff need to concur, is a very sensitive area.

So really everything that can be done to build this out in a productive way, but also to the extent possible, not just build retention ponds, but try to maintain as much of it.

And that may mean fewer green spaces and more kind of forested recreational area.

Maybe we don't need that big green in the middle.

Um maybe keep these two separate entities and not try to make it one sort of continuous, uh, which might allow and various areas, just look very carefully, reduce the size of the greenway, reduce the surface parking, uh, don't put extra driveways in all the townhouses if you can just if they're gonna park inside the garage, etc.

So really being very cognizant of that aspect of this property.

Okay.

So how do we want to um deal with this?

We can write this up and pass it along with our recommendation.

But should we start?

We can start with the um uh the first we can vote on.

Does anyone want to make a motion?

Honestly, I'd be happy to vote on passing along the matrix, which is our analysis and putting a cover note on it if we feel it's um helpful to do so.

Josh, is that okay?

Can we do that instead of voting on the ordinances?

Uh yes, I would say that we would treat that as Planning Commission did not make a recommendation of approval or denial.

Yeah, we've done it before.

Okay.

I think we can say we don't really have enough information at this point to approve or deny it.

I mean, it's not really at a stage that we would have enough answers.

I agree.

Yeah.

Okay.

So what we could do, we we have a matrix.

I've been taking notes on our discussion, so I can clean those up, and then you know, has some facts, some analysis, and we had some um areas of recommendations that we talked about.

For example, perhaps decrease the mandatory width of the greenway in order to preserve some pervious space, some additional buffer for uh tree canopy and whatnot.

Um we talked about maybe decreasing park parking ratios, uh unbundling parking for the multifamily, and you had some um good things to look into.

I would say, Liz, about um mitigating stormwater effects, and we can just put those there, and we can also put in the um somewhere in here, maybe under the analysis like areas where uh neighbors or members of the community were um particularly focused, and and uh just the gist of some of the points made.

Okay, can we clearly recommend that we need more participation from stormwater staff in in this like we need more um analysis on this particular project given its location?

Yeah, and that we need more information and an analysis from them in this project.

Can Jash, can we vote and then clean it up, or do you need us to clean it up and then vote?

Um I I think you can vote.

I will uh just say staff recommendation is to make a motion on the resolution and ordinance.

Uh you don't have to, but we do just want to point out that is our recommendation.

Um if you do want to continue with just the complete community matrix, um I would make sure that any statements that you want in that are clearly captured in the matrix.

I think the motion would just be to send the matrix to council.

Um any additional comments would likely not be attached unless you completely word them right now.

Right.

Understood.

But the whole matrix would be passed along.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Uh is there a motion to pass along the matrix?

Well, I can't see very well right now.

So clean up.

I could see everything in the main.

We have a chance to clean it up outside of this meeting, or then well, that's what we've done in the past.

Uh you know, based on the meeting notes, and if somebody needs to go back to the tape and clarify what was said, try to accurately capture the substance of the discussion of the matrix, and it can be circulated to planning commission members via email, and people can send in if they have a correction.

And it can be circulated to planning commission members via email, and people can send in if they have a correction.

Great.

And that's just a vote.

We could vote on Sunday.

We can get this.

No, I think we can vote now.

We help with this.

Strongly recommend against voting on Sunday.

I think we have noted that we do not expect any votes of the retreat, even though there will be a quorum.

One other thing.

I move that we have John Mitchell incorporate our recommendations and comments that include feedback from uh public comment with our recommendations on everything he listed previously with uh impervious surface.

Uh we were talking about tree canopy, steep slopes, and stormwater.

Green, yeah.

So everything that was included there.

John will write that up, send the matrix to council.

Um, to Liz and Liz will send that on a council.

And can John distribute and people send comments back to John.

Usually they don't, but I'm happy to give them the opportunity.

All right.

Would you like to second that?

I second that.

Uh all approve.

Hi.

Okay.

All right.

Um thanks for the comments.

Uh we uh we appreciate the time from the community.

Okay.

Last but not least.

Did you send my matrix to him too?

Thanks.

It's gonna take them a minute to much smaller uh it's uh it puts us on the classwork.

It's probably more here with project by project by once issues by actual record.

And then council we can do.

Are we taking a break or will Libby be back?

Let's just get it.

Okay, we just need Libby to um quick bio break quick break.

Our quorum.

Yeah, I just think you do the analysis.

And I I don't have any question.

So I can't I don't have a staff that's gonna come through the answers to things in the council.

So give me the information.

Yeah, well, also I mean the first one that you know the mount tags.

We've got a nice petable explication ahead of time.

You can see all of it.

This was just too nuanced, and there's a lot of details that are really important.

Right.

I think the best way just to handle the system.

So let's do the same here on this one.

Looks like you all aren't gonna quite have the neighbors uh that's gonna be boring.

We're gonna be easy.

Well, we hope.

I'll text them.

We'll be right back.

There are no neighbors for this property.

That's right.

Truckers robot.

Not that renters don't count.

Hey, is um Starbucks gone and replaced by Caraway coffee?

No.

Starbucks is still there?

Yeah, coffee options.

No, well, so caraway coffee is kind of us.

Yeah, it's it's if you live at Caraway.

It's like our resonance.

Yes, you actually get free coffee in the morning.

We have a bird.

Oh, well.

Um I'll be there.

Yeah.

No, you can't have so it's it's kind of like uh we run it as a matter to uh pick me.

And what so there's Chick-fil-A.

Chick-fil-A in the UNC health office, right?

Wendy's just open.

Wendy's open, yeah.

Uh Chase Bank is under construction.

Okay.

Um then uh Chick-fil-A actually expanded and they closed for about a month, two months, and expansion.

Um next one.

Got it.

There you go.

All right.

So Sharne Gaharo at the planning department.

Um I'll let the applicant present first and then I will follow up.

Is this the new you all are gonna flip it from now on?

This is uh this is how we do it at council.

It's been a while since I've just sent it to people.

Uh like to flip it the other way.

All right.

So uh I would do I make this a full screen or anything.

We can see the full thing.

So they can see the full screen.

So they're seeing the first one, and then as I go this way, they get the next one.

Okay.

All right.

Um I need to introduce myself again.

Okay.

Uh good evening.

Uh so uh Thomas and Hutton, we've been working with the developer and who is here tonight, um, and also with the architect in the design of this uh third phase of Caraway, or the third residential phase of Caraway, I should say.

And if you take a look at uh the sort of the bird's eye view that we have here, you can see where the existing uh first phase of the multifamily was built, and then over here at the bottom of the slide is where the Chick-fil-A, the Wendy's, the medical offices such are down there.

Um the tall building right under where it says site, that is the second phase of the multifamily residential that was built.

And then we're this third phase is is being tucked in behind there.

So um this is sort of a uh we've zoomed out here a little bit, um, so that you can see how this site is wooded.

It's located on the north side of the rest of the caraway village development.

Um the two pink circles I thought would be helpful.

Basically, the center of those circles is what is going to be the center of the new community.

And what I did was looked at like a 500-foot walking, which is two to three minutes, and a thousand-foot walking, which is about five minutes, uh, so that you can see sort of how close everything is for the for people who live in this community.

And so you can see that within a couple minutes you are already into some of the amenities, the coffee shop area, and uh the pool, and and within five minutes you're at, you know, you're pretty close to the to the commercial uses.

You're within walking distance of the new pickleball court and the dog park, and uh just uh there's a lot of amenities in the rest of the village that have already been constructed, and and this location is gonna be very close to those.

If you look over on the west side, you're seeing that roundabout, and what you see near there is the park and ride lot, and at that roundabout just south of that roundabout is where the bus stops are.

So you can see that within five minutes of everybody who would be in this new community, they would be able to get to a public transit stop.

So the park parking ride is over to the left.

Right.

Can you see my cursor?

Uh move it a little bit.

I I am.

Oh no, that's that wasn't good.

How do I make it show?

For our left side, yeah, I think that's a good idea.

Yeah, okay, just it now showing?

Yes.

Okay, great.

Uh so it's it's these three walks.

And then uh this is the roundabout where there are the bus stops on each side, just at the south side of that.

All right.

Um currently there are two segments of Greenway Trail that kind of dead end at our at our parcel.

The one coming from the west is a multimodal trail, and it it comes up through the new road system here.

Um recently Caraway has constructed a greenway trail in the other portion, and so over on the southeast corner, you can see where that trail comes in here.

So uh this slide we've sort of gone a little higher, and you get to see the whole site, and then the pink and yellow and blue you can see is our proposed development.

So one of the big things I really wanted to show about this is first of all, you can see the connectivity with the road network that already exists around us, the parking lots and the roads and the greenway trails.

But also that we are keeping our development to the south side of the creek, the creek.

Uh the the stream flows through here.

Um including that hundred foot buffer against I-40 that will remain not just a hundred foot landscape buffer, but an undisturbed buffer.

The slide is showing the images from the town's future land use map, which show um how our plans align with the town goals.

The site is in the north MLK focus area, sub-area B.

And when you look at the chart of what uses are promoted, uh multifamily residential is promoted as a primary use, and town home residential is promoted as a secondary use.

And here is our layout plan.

So the um sort of darker pink buildings are the multifamily buildings.

They are um you know, spaced enough that we have some nice green space in between them.

They're brought right up to the sidewalk area along the connector.

Um the yellow buildings are the townhomes that sort of overlook the pond, and then they're also clustered on the on the east side.

Um we will uh pick up the multimodal trail on the west side.

It will come through our site.

Are you still seeing the the cursor?

No.

No.

Do I have to jiggle it?

I'm moving it.

Can you see now?

Okay.

So the the multimodal trail, we're picking it up where it ends on our west side.

We're bringing it through the site.

It's um it at this sort of community space, we're bringing it up and and kind of taking it away from being more of a sidewalk to being more of a greenway trail.

And that's coming down back through the woods behind the townhomes and hooking up to the greenway trail as it ends at the rest of the Caraway village.

So the central green space is um it's gonna be a real community gathering space.

There's gonna be picnic shelter and some you know, grilling facilities, some gathering seating areas, green space, and a playground.

And and it's right alongside um, it's right alongside the multimodal trail.

There will also be some nature trails that that spur off from there and go down toward the creek and go around the storm pond and you know, that makes the pond and the and the woods there a real recreational amenity for the for the people who live here.

And one thing to keep in mind is that the recreation space, like the trail and the playground and all that kind of stuff, that will be available for people who already live in Karaway to use, as will be the recreation amenities that are already in Caraway Village.

These people in the third phase will be able to use them.

This is this looks like a separate project when you see it on a parcel on paper, but when you're on the ground when it's built, it won't feel like it's separated, it will feel like it's just a natural expansion of the village that's already there right now.

Wendy, can I can I ask the hiking, the the trail system that you're talking about through the woods, is that how do you build that?

Is it just a it'll be nature trails?

It'll be nature trails.

So we normally lay this out in the field.

Um we don't cut down trees.

I mean, we might cut down something just to get our trail in place.

But we'd be going along and laying it out, it would be a mulch trail.

And so when it's first put down, you know, if there's mulch, people start using it, and as people use it more, it becomes a footpath.

Um if for some reason, and I can't imagine here that this will happen, but if nobody ever uses it, it just disintegrates and goes back to the hiking.

It's a hiking trail.

Right.

Uh, but they're already, if you've been up to this site, there's already a lot of trails through here, hiking and biking.

Um, and so I just can't imagine that whatever trail gets put in here that they're not going to be well used because it is a even without anybody living here, um, it is a well-used area.

So the project um, oh, so I guess I should talk about some numbers here.

Uh, we're looking at having um 155 to 170 units.

Right now, what you're seeing is 169 units, and this is really what we're looking for.

We're just asking for a range in case during the final design we get told that we have to pull something back.

We don't want to have to change density and go back through council.

But we're you know, we're looking at something close to the 170 units on the site.

Um we have parking for the multi-family, which is a little bit under one per unit.

Uh we do have some street spaces for visitors and overflow, but we would expect here given how close we are to the um to the public transit to the hubs and to the the trails and everything that um that there will be less car use than you would find in other developments.

Not to mention a massive parking lot that it's right next to right.

It is um, I don't know, is that usually full?

No, the it the exit, well, not just the park and ride, but the existing parking on in the village.

Yeah, the our existing parking full.

It's pretty full.

But in the night time, it's full in the night time.

The parking lot.

Are you talking about for a ride?

Or is it our no, no, the park parking ride is a bit would be available.

Yeah.

My understanding is that use I don't think you're allowed to park there overnight.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

The the town issues permits for the park and ride.

It is typically not used during the night because it's used for bus service.

Okay, we we'll come back to that.

Okay.

Uh so that that is the numbers.

Um, one thing we started to put together here was just sort of a comparison of some of the goals, some of the complete communities elements, and how we believe our project is meeting those goals.

So diverse housing, there is already on site, you know, all the multi-family.

This would be um additional multi-family, but they'd be skewed toward smaller units.

That's the current plan.

And there would also be townhomes and they will be rental town homes.

There won't be any for sale product here.

Uh, the mixed use.

So previous phases include retail and commercial and multiple recreation amenities.

So that as I said, when it's built, it will all act and function as a single mixed-use village.

The walkability and transit, well, public transit is available within a couple minutes walk of almost everybody who lives here, and certainly within five-minute walk of anyone who lives here.

Residents can walk to restaurants and recreational offerings, and uh there will be some new, you know, there's some new services coming on board, like additional like banking and medical offices.

So it is expanding.

Green strategies, we are looking, of course, at LED lighting and all electric appliances for meeting those portions of the of the um sustainability policy, um, energy star rated appliances.

We are looking at um installation of EV charging stations for the multifamily, and then I should also point out that recently Caraway has right at the corner at the where okay, once again, I don't know if you're seeing my cursor, but right in this corner at the South Driveway, they've installed a couple of level three chargers, which are the really super rapid chargers, right?

They can do a car, a whole battery in half an hour.

Um, and so these will be very accessible to the residents who are moving into this third phase.

The ones that we are proposing putting in as part of this project are additional level two chargers.

Um see, we um are obviously supporting public transit and greenway, is we're building a portion of the of the uh greenway trail here to do the connection, and we are doing the stormwater treatment for 100 year event.

So, as far as placemaking and public realm, we do have that central gathering space with the playground and picnic shelter, which is available to all residents and will be very visible from the um from the existing phases as you look up the driveway, it will be sort of the focus at the end of the driveway.

And we did present this concept, not this concept.

We presented a concept to council um last fall, and that plan included some single family homes, uh town homes, and two smaller multifamily buildings.

What we really heard from that, oh, and we and it also included a storm pond that was well well into the RCD.

So what we heard, the biggest comments we heard from council were they wanted way more density here, and they didn't think that single family homes were an appropriate land use for something that was so close to the um to the public transit.

They also wanted us to get the pond out of the RCD.

So those two things are kind of at odds with each other.

Um we we in ended up uh increasing so we took got rid of the single family homes, we added more multi-family, we probably have about the same number of townhomes, and the result is that we've actually increased the density by a third.

We went from 126 units to 169, so that was a pretty significant jump.

Um and although we weren't able to take the pond completely out of the RCD, we were able to take it out of the managed zone and and now it's only in the upland zone.

Um and even at that, the um the pond is uh the portion of the pond in the R C D upland zone has been decreased by 73%.

So we significantly decreased how much of our stormwater mitigation was in the RCD.

We significantly decreased how much of the RCD was disturbed, um, and and we have increased the density.

So we feel like we have done what we can to satisfy the concerns of council as far as the the concept plan.

So as far as support for smaller unit sizes, the mix isn't finalized yet, but the multifamily certainly will skew toward the smaller unit sizes.

What we had before, we really didn't have any recreation on our on the in this phase.

And so what we have done is we've increased the recreation area to include that central gathering space, the gazebo, the playground.

There's also a small sort of gathering spot that overlooks the pond from between the town homes in here.

It makes the pond more of an amenity.

So the things that they supported at the time were the greenway connector, the small unit size, and the multifamily, the pond is an amenity, and the unit types, which varied from uh the current offerings at Caraway, which was the addition of the townhomes.

And these items are still included in the project.

So we do not have proposed building renderings at this point.

We're still really in schematic, but um, but you can expect the architecture to be complementary with the existing buildings in Caraway, and and these are a few images from what's there right now.

So you can see the you know sidewalks with trees on the streets and the um articulation and the green spaces between the the wings of of uh the multifamily buildings, you know, corner um and entry area um definition and articulation in the in the building facades.

Um the buildings will not be quite as high as what you're seeing here as you see in the bottom right corner, and then also some green.

Why not?

Sorry, why not?

Why not go on?

Uh it's it's mostly a function of um how much space we have for parking.

So they'll probably do structured parking bases.

We're looking at like uh no, and I think we're looking at three four-story buildings at this point.

Yeah.

Three.

So decent density.

Um, anyway, that is all of my presentation, and I will leave it at that.

I'm gonna leave this on the screen for you so you can you need to point things out, you can.

Um, you know, the new development and then the existing stuff around with the uh labels on some of the non-residential uses over on the right-hand side.

Thank you.

Okay, um, I will try to go through this quickly.

Um again, Sharney Carroll with the planning department.

Um this slide just uh shows you where the site is located.

It's between like Ubanks and I-40 north of the existing Caraway Village.

Um staff's recommendation.

We will recommend that council approve the project subject to all of the conditions and ordinance A.

Um, I think we find that it aligns with complete community goals and the comprehensive plan, and we've reviewed their um the requested modifications to regulations.

So they're requesting to rezone the property from community commercial conditional zoning district and office institutional one conditional zoning district to residential six um conditional zoning district.

So multifamily residential development with three-story apartment buildings and three-story townhouse units.

Um of the total market rate units will be affordable, and the affordable units will be located in the apartment buildings.

Um this slide just gives you some context for conditional zoning districts.

Um this slide just reiterates the complete community considerations.

Um that you can keep in mind as you review the application.

So this is an image of the site from the natural features viewer.

Um dark green there and light green.

And uh this table sort of explains what those colors mean.

And so the model does show that there are possible habitat fragments throughout the site and habitat corridors north of the stream.

There's a perennial stream that sort of bisects the property, and um for land use, the site is undeveloped and has significant tree canopy.

And um the applicant is proposing no disturbance of tree canopy on the land north of the stream.

There won't be any vehicular or pedestrian stream crossings and limited R C D disturbance that's associated with the their stormwater control measure.

Um so you'll review the application, receive public comment, and then provide a recommendation to council on resolution eight and ordinance.

Um I can bring up the last slide of the application.

Could you actually first bring up your first image?

Uh yeah, that was one.

Can I ask um were you done?

Yeah.

So what are those?

I went and visited the site over the weekend to the left of the site, or I guess the west.

What are I know there's an Awasa like treatment station, but there's some big fields and cleared area.

What are those?

Um, I'm not sure.

Is that like the Duke East?

Yeah, which I can't leave.

So you see the you see the yellow triangle to the left of it.

I think that's yeah.

So is that that might be the storage place right there?

The white yes.

That so what are the so first of all, what is that like?

Is that an e a uh ride-away or easement or is that a that's power but there's like a big field here?

It's there or maybe before all of those.

What is that all Chapel Hill owned?

Does that have to do with utilities or is this field part of your entitlement?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So um, so I can Adam Golden.

I've been doing Caraway for 11 years now.

So um so the that um so that's part of the original caraway.

The white that you see is the storage building, that's complete.

Um that's part of Caraway?

That is part of Caraway phase one, or when I the original caraway, that is part of it.

Yeah.

So the land to the left of that.

Um actually I think Wendy has it on her slide.

So that is the proposed, you probably heard about the UNC Ice hockey arena.

So we're with them about them on Friday.

Um it uh it's part of Caraway, it's the most challenged part of the site.

The same hundred, I think it's there's two massive, there's a Duke and a Piedmont power easement that is it's the big high tension line, same that you were talking about with the previous project.

Um so that that all of that's the vacant land you see, and fingers crossed the the hockey arena.

Fingers crossed the the hockey arena or um performance.

And is that uh above that is that a pond or is that vacant land?

That is that is one there are three, there's a regional stormwater system for Caraway, the original phase, that's part of it.

There are three ponds, that's one of them.

Okay, all right.

So it's about three acres, the total and in front of the um below to the south of the the storage.

What is that?

So south of the storage or one-acre parcel that is an affordable housing parcel that we've been working on developing.

It's been very challenging.

Um to the left of that, there's a little triangular pie shape that is parking for the affordable housing parcel, possibly could be parking for the ice hockey arena.

It's kind of undefined land right now, and then south of that is the park ride facility.

Yeah.

Um then the park and ride is owned by the town.

It's actually town and FTA.

I think there's federal money involved in it.

We when we reconfigured the you may remember the original park ride had the loading up on Ubanks, and then when we did our phase one, we wanted Main Street to to kind of tie into the loading area for the buses.

So we move that, and that required, I think, federal the FTA is involved in it, and it it complicates what happens on that park ride facility.

I think it is owned by the town, but Josh, you would know better than me.

So there was talk in downtown Chapel Hill about trying to um look at sharing parking because some parking lots are full in the day, some are in the night.

It's a very inefficient use.

I mean, there's a parking lot empty in the night.

A lot of these people of cars are gonna move them in the day to go somewhere.

So have you all ever tried to engage in some shared arrangement?

It's a great question.

Um I think the short well the ice hockey facility is doing exactly that.

They would need every single space and probably some multiple of that to enable, I mean, they're talking about if we have a two to three thousand person arena.

So if there's an event, you may have 1,500 cars.

So and I think that holds 500 cars-ish.

So um I think the the biggest challenge with our projects, because we're, you know, we we're we're have rental apartments, we have to have parking available, and it had the the current market, we we can't have it not be available at a certain time, like during the day if someone was parking to use the bus and that space wasn't available to the person who ran there, they wouldn't rent there.

So um, and I think the FTA involvement really I think it would be when we looked at it, it was incre it was so complicated it wasn't like it kind of and it was very hard.

And on the parking theme, um have you do you do unbundled parking?

Have you ever considered unbundled parking?

Um again, our the rental market in our experience is not quite to that point.

Um even uh, you know, so the existing the original phase of caraway is 403 units, the phase two building is 207, so we've got 610 units.

Um as much as I would love to say with our access to the park and ride, people live there without a car.

I would bet nobody has like unless you're living with someone who has a car, I bet every single resident has a car.

Yeah, they just do most or a uh a scooter or something, yeah.

Um it's unfortunate, but I think in our market it's it's required.

Can I ask a related question?

Yep.

Um so Caraway doesn't have any structured parking, it's all service parking, right?

And uh that was if you go back and look at uh the original hearings, um that was absolutely we we structured parking is I'm sure you know is incredibly expensive.

And at the even at you know, we built care phase one we finished in 2019.

So this I think the rezoning, the SUP was in 2015.

Um we we knew at this location, you know, being pretty far from town, uh, we knew most people are gonna have to have a car.

Um the the rental rate we would have to charge to justify structured parking would have been 30, 40 percent higher than the market would stand.

So we were trying to also it kind of hit a more affordable rate, you know, rental sweet spot.

So that would that was actually a very deliberate part of caraways that we did not we it economically didn't work.

Right.

I guess Ernie's just having a different calculus down it's very weird, it's more central part of town, it's not right near the highway, and you probably would have to charge a higher rental rate.

He's looking at 500 units.

You you all are only looking at 170, so yeah, for this if you're talking about like kind of our new phase added all up.

Yeah, right.

Now right, yeah, right, right.

Yeah, and this and it, you know, Caraway is I I've said this to every uh public hearing.

I think I've said Caraway is the most complicated project I've ever worked on.

There's a lot of push and pull.

You may remember Eubanks Road used to be two lanes, and so part of the original Caraway project was the massive expansion that we did, which was adding lanes in each direction, turn lanes on our side of the road, two traffic signals, modifying the MLK Ubanks thing, and that took a year of pre-planning, and the better part of I think it was like 20 months of construction, and it was it was significant off-site improvements um that were required just to get the infrastructure in place for phase one.

The good thing is that our phase now is benefiting is that all the traffic infrastructure is fully in place.

So Adam, is there any you you mentioned that you've been talking to UNC about they're potentially looking at hockey arena there that would need 1500 spots and there's only 500 in the park and rides.

So UNC is gonna have to build structured parking up there, no?

How else would we do that?

Um there would have to be some form of structured parking for that facility.

I uh unless I do but that has nothing to do with this project.

You're not thinking that somehow you gotta have a couple floors and they're um uh you were involved, but more as the landowner and trying to help facilitate it, but they're they're the ones championing it.

So um, but I know parking obviously is a key component to that.

And I think they're they have an ice hockey team.

Apparently, for 20 years, apparently.

Do they I've looked at this in Hills?

25 years, and I didn't know that, but they're they're apparently and they're they're pretty good.

So I think they play in Hillsborough, and it's uh the the sportsplex up in Hillsborough.

And they have share ice time, and I think it's um and they're pretty good, huh?

Okay.

Ice all right.

Um West questions?

No questions.

John.

One other question.

Um so it in my experience, which is limited, it's kind of unusual to have uh a proposal for any RCD incursion for a stormwater retention pond.

Um what's the deal with that?

Well, the the can how do we get to um I mean the the single I mean the it's it's really exactly what Wendy said, probably couldn't say it any better.

Is at when we presented our initial, I'm trying to get to our to our slide.

Just shows the plan because what I can kind of explain it.

Um at the council when we presented the concept, it it was very clear to council that or to us from council that everyone wanted more density on the site, given our access to transit and everything we've got at Caraway already.

Um we originally kind of on the piece that's right behind phase two, that L-shaped building.

We had I think 10 or 12 single family, they were gonna be single family for rent.

Um, but it's it's a newer product.

We're doing it at our Helmont project.

Um we really wanted to do it here, but it was very clear that council wanted density.

So to get the density, it it's there's a push pull.

You've we couldn't maximize den if we if we maximize the density there and pulled the pond in the site, we would probably be a hundred and we'd be at the same unit count.

How how many feet of incursion is it?

It's on the the north edge of the pond.

It's uh I I don't know the exact amount on this this is very tiny, but it it's just the n it's just the north edge.

And that you know, it's such an odd shape.

Um, but we if we tried to take it more to the right, we would be hitting the R C D in a different spot.

And and there are a number of places in town where the stormwater pond has been allowed to be put in the upper and the managed zones of the RCD.

So the fact that we have been able to pull it out of almost all of the RCD, except for you know, just a small amount in the in the upper upper zone in the upland zone.

Um feels like a good compromise.

So you could go higher.

I mean, the request is for three stories.

You said three or four, but if you went four or more, you can't park it without structured parking.

So the roots queue we have is the building footprint and bringing everything down.

Well, we right, but then you would lose units in the in the multifamily building, and if we just move the pond altogether out, we would lose those 20 townhomes that were that are on the north side.

We have we did try, we did a number of actually we've been working with um Brian Peterson too, and and also with Josh and with Taz with town staff.

And we did try a few different scenarios where we where we didn't put the pond in the R C D at all, and we were losing like an average of 28, 30 units.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Even by taking the multifamily hire, it's just you know, there's no stacking the townhouses.

The it's we we have kind of a there's an yeah, there's an economic piece that we're trying to solve for here.

Um Wendy mentioned it, but I think it's important to to kind of reiterate.

So we 610 units in one place is a I mean, that's a lot of units.

That's a big, I mean, Caraway is a big project.

We've been working on it multi-phase.

Um it was very important to us that what we do here is a product that we haven't done yet.

Like find, you know, we we have row houses, the one, two, three, fours.

I think there are six buildings at front on Ubanks that are a little lower scale.

Those are row houses, they're not actually town, they're not two story, they're single-story row houses, they have garages on the ground level.

The these are going to be true townhouses that you know, you go your unit and they'll be three stories.

We're actually gonna have a roof deck, which would be really cool.

Um, so that the townhouse doesn't exist at Caraway, and so that was important.

The multifamily buildings are like Wendy mentioned, they're gonna be the smallest units we've done at Caraway.

And the idea is really it's a more affordable way for someone to get all of the amenities and the Caraway experience, and just because the unit is smaller, the rent will naturally be more affordable.

So and it's something we don't.

I think our smallest unit at Caraway now is like 700 square feet around.

These may be in the you know, four to five hundred, six hundred feet range.

So um like studios?

Yeah, kind of studio efficiency.

Um we we've as a company we're we're always kind of looking at, you know, there are trends, there's micro units, there's a couple of projects that have tried very, very small units, and uh we're we're that's kind of our thesis here is to kind of do something that doesn't exist at Caraway already, uh have a smaller unit.

Um, you know, for part of it, the townhomes actually, you know, are gonna be, you know, they'll be our tallest units because inside you'll have three stories.

So um we haven't had anybody come to us before with the micro units.

We've brought it up, but nobody's thought that the market was ready for it.

So just getting back to the parking lot.

To the you want to talk about the micro units.

Um for the micro units, well, it just feels like I look at this and see a lot of surface parking and not a lot of buildings.

And I'm just wondering, are you tracking how much of your current parking is using?

You have a really pretty good sense that what you've got here is the amount you need.

Absolutely.

Yeah, in fact, I can tell you that the surface parking we have for the existing phases, if you go there at night is all used.

In fact, we during the day we've had problems where at times, I mean, at day we have people go to work or go to school or go to um, you know, the hospital.

Um, you know, then the parking lots are available, but we actually have uh I wouldn't say we have too little parking, but we are our sweet spot.

I think Mr.

Brown previously, one per bedroom actually is a market sweet spot.

That is do you think with the micro that's gonna be there more or less?

I think it'll be exactly the same.

Because again, in our market, my experience in our market um is I I I don't know anyone who doesn't have a car or a need for a space.

They may have a motorcycle or a scooter.

Yeah.

Um, but it's just but again, particularly with our site.

We Caraway pulls a lot from we have people that you know say Duke, but you know, we're we're kind of right on the freeway.

We have RTP, Chapel Hill, a lot of people who have one foot in one place and a foot in another.

I mean, we have people that that come from Duke University or Durham that just want to live in Chapel Hill and want easy access.

So you know, hop on Irwin Road and Whitfield and and you can get there.

So unfortunately, the the parking we have, we we need one per bedroom.

We really do.

No, no.

Um can we go back to the does anyone know the answer to this question of I don't know how deep this pond will be.

But again, this is kind of a stormwater issue that I wish I had a better understanding of that how much more water will this pond retain compared to the forest that it's replacing.

Do we know the answer to that?

Um I'm not an engineer, I can't answer that.

Sure.

It's 400 feet deep.

So it's for scuba diving.

There's a shipwreck now.

And I think it's it I think it's fair to say we have not got to the engineering details of the pond, so I don't think anyone could tell you how deep it is yet.

What we do know is that it will retain the same amount of water that the existing trees on the developed part of the site uh retain today.

It's to make up for the tree loss on the developed part, you're saying.

Okay.

It it's to make up for the added impervious.

Yes.

And how much is the added impervious?

Oof.

I would have to look that up.

Any other questions?

Any questions from the public?

Okay.

Jash, can you put up the other matrix we have?

Sorry, I can answer that question.

23% of the site will be impervious.

Okay, and by code, we would be allowed to go to 70.

And that was from zero.

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

So we did the same thing for yours.

Good.

Uh that we did for the others.

So and again, these may not be exactly correct because we took it from the literature, so feel free to fix it.

But it looked like it was 19 acres.

And a little more than half will not will remain.

And you just says uh list the mic.

You just said 17% impervious, which I'm writing down to 23%.

And the rest of the property, are you can that be developed later, all the rest of the forest, or you all are by not developing it, you're essentially putting it into an easement, or is the idea you might come back later?

It wouldn't be put into an easement.

Uh currently there is no way to get cars, vehicles up there, so there would be no emergency access.

Yep.

Um it would be difficult to develop right now.

But uh, but we wouldn't want to preclude any development from ever happening there.

And so there would not be an easement put on it.

But if this if the north side were to be developed, it would have to come back for another conditional zoning or special use permit, because this conditional zoning would only allow the amount of development that you're seeing and the amount of disturbance that you're seeing and the amount of impervious that you're seeing.

So any further development would have to come through as a new application.

Okay.

Yeah, to clarify, that land is included in this conditional zoning district.

So if they want to develop it, they just need to modify the conditional zoning district.

So as far as land use efficiency, I roughly estimate it's something like 19 units per the acre that you actually use, not the acre above the the stream.

That's probably about right.

That's right.

Oh, pretty good.

Um, which is pretty similar to the project the the other project is more like 24.

So this is below, and I think that was of the whole property, not just the usable property.

It'd be half that be less than half of that if you but big chunk.

There's a much bigger piece of forested land left undisturbed on this.

So have we no, sorry.

So land use efficiency.

I mean, that's what we've been talking about.

Is there any way to pull it in more and get the same dense?

So essentially make the density higher, but use less land so that you don't have to go into the incursion and you all just don't see any way.

No, no, we we've done a number of studies and been working with planning, and and we are not seeing a way to make it to get any more density on the site.

Okay.

Sounds like if you were to build south of the street.

You know, a high rise of structured party is a totally different product.

Totally different market.

Yeah.

Okay, so mix of housing units, it's all rental.

Uh the unit sizes range from studio, so it's actually micro, maybe 400 square foot, to three bedrooms.

And uh it will be three stories, probably.

They might they might be taller.

Maybe four, three to four.

Uh and ten percent affordable housing split between sixty-five and eighty m.

Correct.

Which is uh I think a good mix, a nice, particularly when adding to the rest of Caraway.

So I don't think we have anything to add on that.

Uh walkability, bikeability to daily needs.

So it's very close to the park and ride.

The project includes sidewalks throughout with shade trees, correct?

Yes.

Uh and there'll be multiple smaller green spaces.

Correct.

Um the greenway segment will be added to the site connecting the multimodal chapel point road with the end of the greenway trail within Caraway.

But it will not go past that, right?

Like past in the direction of the ice, it'll end there.

The multimodal.

As part of this project, yes.

Yeah.

Yes, it will connect to the existing multimodal trail that was built as part of the self-storage units.

Yeah, it connects the loop.

Yeah.

Now it ends here.

And um is there any town, like if you look at the town greenway vision, does it go anywhere, or that's pretty much the end?

The mobility plan does include some facilities connecting up to the Chapel Hill Transit and Chapel Hill Public Works facilities.

Uh those would not be on this property, and they would be part of future development or future town projects.

But would they link to this multimodal if it were to ever happen?

Yes, you would have a continuous link using the facilities on Myrica and then Chapel Plan.

Okay.

Um let's see.

Can you ask that?

You can ask people.

Go ahead.

So how will people get from this?

Well, this is a question for the staff, whether there are plans to get people across Martin Luther King Boulevard.

To Chapel North to like Carr's Theater.

Oh, they would have to walk down to Eubanks.

Yeah or take the trail down to Eubanks.

And and there's a sidewalk there that they could take.

I've done it.

It's unpleasant.

Yeah.

But you can do it.

Yes.

It's a crosswalk.

I I would I would also note that NCDOT is currently pursuing uh a project on that stretch of road that is currently funded that would super street Eubanks.

Um so that crossing may change for better or worse.

Um and there will as part of that project, um, I believe they will be building a sidewalk to Perkins, but I would need to double check that okay.

So the walkability, bikeability, I think it is what it is for Caraway.

I mean, you're never gonna have a school out there, a Harris Teeter.

You don't have plans for anything besides fast food like fancy restaurant or well, I mean we it is what it is.

Unfortunately, at this point, I mean, phase the phase two building we tried for six years with the help of two different mayors to get a grocery store, and we couldn't.

Um so uh that was when we uh decided to do phase two, which is the seven-story building that we finished uh, I guess two years ago.

Um so I think we do have so we've got the medical office building that actually can't.

I don't know if you need to stay on this, but I don't know if I can't.

I didn't pull this up.

We do have a new medical office building that's in the works that's up, that'll be next to Wendy's that just opened.

You got Wendy's Starbucks, um, Chick-fil-A, uh Chase Bank, which is under construction.

We have one pad that is unspoken for right now across from the chase.

Um it's about a one-acre pad.

Um we would love that to be a restaurant or some kind of active um amenity type thing for the residents.

The perfect world would be if the hockey arena comes together that maybe this that feeds off of that.

Um the uh we did just add a pretty significant amenity addition.

Um if you have if I think you said you've been out there recently, you saw our new two pickleball courts, our volleyball court.

Oh, I didn't see this.

Um yeah, go if you go in the traffic light entry on UBanks, look to your left.

We just installed uh two brand new.

I think it went to the second entry.

Yeah, go that kind of went straight down.

Yeah, that one if you look to your left, right as you're coming in, you may you may not have uh I yeah, didn't notice it.

Uh but if you look to your left or even make a left at the end of the entry road, you'll see a brand new one-acre dog park.

Um Jake Dinnerman designed all that, so he uh gets full credit for that.

Um and then we did a large green, it was an open space green in front of phase two.

Technically, those are commercial pads.

Uh someday could those be developed as commercial, perhaps.

Um, but we're actually really we just invested a lot of money in what's there now, and we're very, very happy with how the whole community is coming together.

This is really kind of the the final phase, if you will, of Caraway.

Um plus the affordable housing.

Yes, plus the affordable housing, plus the hockey arena, fingers crossed.

Um, and then maybe a restaurant or two.

I will say I was very disappointed when the putt putt disappeared.

I was all ready for that.

Someday when BRT is built.

You could hop on e-bike, Ubanks Road.

Yeah, get down to, you know.

Really isn't that hard.

Um so let's see, six surface bike spaces, kiosk, a lot of little things.

If you go down to um can you all just scroll about okay, sure.

Yeah, yeah.

So mixed use is whether you're gonna be adding mixed use, and it sounds like uh you've got what you've got, and you're not gonna be adding much with this.

Yeah, we really can't.

I mean, that's the the grocery store example was one that with mixed use, the biggest challenge, and this is I I uh the original Caraway project, uh this goes back to 2015.

If you may recall, the council really, really wanted commercial development here.

In fact, they they would rather have had more commercial than residential density.

Um, we are residential developers and mixed use developers, but the thing with mixed use that makes development so hard is we can't control what Harris Teeter or Publix or Foodline or whoever they they make their own decisions, and uh I can tell you that we courted uh multiple grocery stores because that that grocery store at Caraway was was really the original vision.

That's what we wanted.

Um and six years of trying to do it of rolling out the red carpet, and it just it just wasn't the the project doesn't sit right on the traffic light, it's kind of you know the weird S curve of coming onto Ubanks, you know.

What we heard is you know, grocery stores want to be right on a traffic light.

Yeah, you know, and if they're not they're you do have that hair's teeter so close.

Yeah, I mean I shop at that Harris tier all the time, and um uh it's actually a very hard center to get in and out of.

It's a horrible, horrible traffic uh uh there it it what we've learned is that if if you're not up on the front of the project, um commercial users can't it it doesn't work for them, and this is behind the original phase, so the visibility will be hard.

There's a big buffer between I-40, so you're not gonna see it from the freeway.

Um, which is a good thing in residential, but is a for commercial is a bad thing.

So it's just it's not viable for commercial.

Yeah.

Um I don't think we have anything to say on commercial beyond that.

I think we've already talked about parking.

Do we want to add any?

I don't know what the ratios were, but it it's not even really one unit.

It's not even really one space per unit, barely one space per space.

Yeah, yeah.

Wow, but this is mostly one bedrooms.

We've we've got a hundred and ten spaces for 125 units.

Oh, okay.

It's less than one.

There is some street parking for overflow, which I suspect will be used overnight by the town home unit also has it's a it's a it's a pretty cool unit.

Um the it has a garage space on the ground level, it's actually structured that you could actually fit two cars in the garage.

We made it their longer units, so um the the townhomes are self-parking, so we're not looking for any surface parking for the but for the multifamilies, yeah.

Pretty close a one-to-one.

Okay.

Um quality design, placemaking and prioritization of the pedestrian realm.

Um we are we are adding um a playground and a picnic gazebo shelter.

Okay.

I'm not sure I saw that in the I do have the gazebo in there.

And the playground is right next to it.

Okay.

Yeah, playground plus.

So it's right where the the uh greenway trail and the basically where the multimodal trail turns up in toward that green space.

Yeah, that's where the playground is too.

So all of that community spaces in in one central area.

I will say on this that this project is tuck, way tucked way back there.

And I think what's being proposed here, there's a the greenway, sort of a local greenway connection and the Mews.

I mean it seems like pretty reasonable effort given that this is like pretty much out of sight for 99% of the town.

I mean, they're not gonna nobody's going back there unless you live there.

Oh, you mean of Chapel Hill?

Yeah, nothing.

I mean it's not like uh we're talking about in the um MLK site where it's you know we're trying to activate a space for the town.

This is like way back there.

Right, but we're still activated for the thing.

There's no thread.

But it seems like a reasonable effort has been made.

All right.

Um respect for surrounding neighborhood, you're clearly trying to make it look like the rest of Careway.

That seems pretty straightforward.

Uh and you showed us those pictures, let's see.

Um maintain natural landscape.

So the majorities in forests, open space would above the uh stream.

The buildings aren't in the R C D.

New trees will be planted.

Where are the new trees planted?

In the buffers, in the buffers between the existing um residential and the and this new development.

Okay.

Well, and there will be trees, you know, along the sidewalks and in the park, and so there will be trees added to and you will be taking invasives out.

Yes.

From the forested area or no, from it from the uh buffer zones.

Got it.

And uh you're asking for the waiver for the both the greenway and mostly for the storm storm ponds.

Yes.

Yes.

Um, I mean, that's the the thing that I'd like to point out is this is that's the thing that concerns me the most, unlike that last one where stormwater is clearly the sort of most important issue.

I don't think it's as critical here just because of the location, but you are in probably one of the premier spots located to the rest of the forest.

You know, the natural viewers showed that uh you're in the highest darkest green area, and you want to mention the connection to the rest of the uh do you want to mention that?

Right.

Well, this habitat is adjacent to an important corridor that connects even under I-40 to across the way.

This old field creek area is a really important wildlife corridor.

Um but even before that, I just wanted to get a clarification on the um amount of RCD encroachment.

You're asking for a variance from 40 percent, which is allowed to 49%.

You're encroaching on 49%.

It's not just for the pond though.

It's it's for the um it's for the green space on the greenway trail.

And it's disturbance.

We're not we're not putting buildings in there.

It's for grading.

In it during construction.

It's for grading and then it would be revegetated.

It's for what?

Grading, grade and then it would be revegetated.

And what?

Replanted.

Revegetated.

Yeah.

And uh will it be planted back in a similar assortment of trees that were there before?

Yeah, and and for the most part they would be native.

For the show, I mean, this is this seems to be the issue that that at least a couple of us most noted of concern.

Could you just show the map again so we could see where I don't know if I can.

I I think while we're we're pulling it up.

Um, I would note that this is one of the first developments where we've really used the the natural features viewer to uh help provide feedback to the applicant.

They have done uh some significant work from their early proposals um in moving the stormwater pond back and really focusing on keeping that habitat corridor um with the least encroachment.

I think some of their encroachment for the greenway is closer to I-40, where there is less habitat uh shown in our model.

Um and that was something that they worked with staff to to do.

I think they've really demonstrated a good faith effort there.

It's good, and and you could see several places where they've clearly been very responsive to the the last round in multiple ways.

So yeah, I appreciate the density and bringing it all together or pulling it to the south, yeah.

And not disturbing not putting anything above the stream, right?

Or or even anything in you know, most of those buffer zones, there's a a tiny bit of encroachment in the um managed buffer, but that's because that's where the existing greenway trail is.

We have to meet the edge of that trail.

So it just so happens that on our side of the property line, that is the managed zone.

But you can see that can you see my cursor?

Unfortunately we of course you can't.

I can't.

And I was hoping you would point to where Greenway is actually going.

You can see that as we cross the property line, and we swing way over yet out of the RCD as much as we'd like to get the most upper point of the R C D that we can for the trail, so that we're not so close to end.

But this is the uh this is the RCD line too.

So this the dashed line, this is the streamside zone.

This is the and so this is the outcome zone.

So over here in planting and that one zone.

I just really don't need this portion on the RCD.

Okay.

All right.

Well, um, you know, this will probably change once you talk with the the uh engineers and all about storm water a bit, but keeping this in mind that this really is an important patch, appreciate that and appreciate your efforts.

Um we lost the thing, but I think the sustainability, it sounds like you all are um I think try and lead certification if I recall and no, it's um green road a program called Green Globes.

Green Globes Globes, which I don't know that one, but um it sounded like you all are making a good effort uh on that attempt.

Anyone want to add anything to the either of those last two?

Are we okay with that?

I'm okay for now.

So I guess I'm just concerned about the long term prospects for that little patch of habitat, both for the humans and the and the critters.

Right now we're the they're not asking to do anything, so they can't do it without coming back and so we ask for an easement of this one.

That sounds like recommend that.

Uh isn't message shifting.

Okay, okay.

Well, I mean, you know, they've done a great job of you know using the thing to coordinate where the best place is to keep the R C D.

I think at this point, I think we're okay.

Yeah, I think we're good right now.

Okay.

Anything else?

Any motions?

Well, um I actually would be um comfortable going beyond just conveying the matrix for this one.

I feel like maybe doing both.

Oh, sure.

We have it.

We should convey it.

But um I think this is um for the council an approvable project and one that we I would be comfortable recommending that they approve without any major changes.

It seems like um it's about as dense as you can get it without going to structured parking, which is different price point for the units.

Um I think uh I applaud the developer for um proposing micro units.

I I think we haven't seen anybody propose that before, and I think um what do I know?

But I th I think the market could actually support it given with the prices in the region right now and the population pressures.

It would be really interesting um to see this succeed.

It could set a good example.

Um reasonable configuration of green space under the circumstances.

Um parking ratios fairly low.

So there's not any red flags in terms of oh, this is just sort of like uh suburban sprawl sort of throwaway development.

I mean, I think some thought has been put into it, and um they've been responsive to the council's um request for as much density as you could practically put in there.

Um and it seems like they've made a real effort to stay away from the RCD, you know.

And preserve the space and preserve all that forest that high value have wildlife habitat forest above there.

So t to me this seems like a why wouldn't the town approve this so I would motion to for us to uh for Liz to clean up her excellent matrix um and um to attach to it maybe at the top uh an explanation of the planning commission you know to took a vote to well and Josh does that work for you I'm sorry I think we would want uh motion on the resolution of consensus yeah yeah so I'm getting there so that's where he's going to typically we at the top of the matrix we would say that we took that vote just so it's all in one place.

But uh I I am motioning um that we um recommend the council's approval of resolution A regarding consistency with the comprehensive plan as well as ordinance a regarding approval of the actual development where we provide the matrix as an addendum to that.

Okay.

I will second that motion.

Any comments okay we'll take a vote John yes yes Libby yes and I'm a yes so it's unanimous who any other business thank you very much for staying so late and meeting adjourned