Good evening, everyone.

Welcome to the September tenth meeting of the Chapel Hill Town Council.

Um tonight is our first meeting of the fall session, so welcome back.

Um we are pleased to have you join us.

It's also the first council meeting for our new town manager, Ted Voorhees.

So welcome, Ted.

Thank you, Mayor.

Great to be here.

Um we are very pleased to have you with us tonight as well.

Um our printed agenda for this evening.

Um we have four items up for discussion.

We have a change to item number thirteen, the legislative hearing for five six four zero Old Chapel Hill Road.

Um at the applicant's request, the item will be presented on September twenty-fourth.

Um if there are members of the public here for that item, when it comes time, we will need to open the hearing and then vote to move it to the twenty-fourth.

Um there will not be a presentation or discussion this evening.

That leaves us with three items for discussion or action.

Um first up, we have a tropical storm chantal overview.

Second, we will consider adopting adoption of a funding plan for our local affordable housing program.

And third, we'll be opening a legislative hearing for a mixed use project proposed for seven zero one Martin Luther King Junior Boulevard.

Um starting off, this evening we have three proclamations to announce.

Um the first is for Patriot Day.

Uh with us tonight to receive the proclamation are members of the Chapel Hill Fire and Police Departments.

Um would you all please join Council Member Searing up front?

Uh thank you very much.

This is a real honor for me.

My grandfather, many of you may not know was a New York City firefighter.

Um this is our Patriot Day proclamation on September eleventh, two thousand and one.

Nearly three thousand innocent lives were taken in the terror attacks on our nation, including three hundred and forty-three New York City firefighters and twenty-three police officers who died in heroic service.

Many more first responders have suffered or died from related illnesses, while countless others have been inspired to serve in the military or as first responders, including right here in Chapel Hill.

Today, by proclaiming September eleventh, twenty twenty five as Patriot Day and Day of Service, we honor the victims and their families and recognize the nearly two hundred heroes who serve in our own police and fire departments.

All right, everybody on three.

One, two, three.

Thank you all for joining us here tonight.

Your courage and commitment to protecting others reflects the very spirit of heroism we remember today and tomorrow.

And every day.

Also, I want to offer a special thank you to Ms.

Cruz, Ms.

Rocca Goldberg, and Miss Ismail for joining us tonight.

Your dedication to empowering and advocating for others is deeply appreciated, and we are always very proud to work alongside you.

Tonight, the mayor and council officially proclaim September fifteenth to October fifteenth, twenty twenty five as Hispanic and Latino Heritage Month.

This is a time to honor the rich histories, cultures, and contributions of Hispanic and Latino communities, past and present.

It's a call to celebrate, but also to act.

Chapel Hill remains committed to confronting discrimination and ensuring that Hispanic and Latino individuals can thrive here.

Thank you.

All right.

Thank you.

Thank you again for joining us tonight and for your unwavering advocacy and support for our Hispanic and Latino neighbors.

Finally, we have Diaper Needs Awareness Month.

Our final proclamation will be read by Councilmember McCullough.

And we are joined in spirit by the diaper bank staff who have been working nonstop to meet community needs and could not be with us.

Oh, I could have done it from the day, excuse me.

I think you look great at that point.

From September 15th to 21st, 2025, Chapel Hill is recognizing diaper need awareness week to spotlight a critical issue affecting families across our community.

Nearly half of U.S.

families struggle to afford enough diapers, impacting children's health and limiting access to child care, education, and employment.

To address this need, the diaper bank of North Carolina, with help from a cadre of volunteers, distributes millions of diapers and other personal hygiene project products through trusted community partners.

We are grateful to them for the vital role they play in supporting local families year round.

And this year we want to express our deep appreciation for the 126,000 diapers they've distributed in the triangle area following Tropical Storm Chantal.

During this week and year round, we invite all residents to support this essential work and to help build a healthier, more compassionate Chapel Hill.

So especially if you've spent some of your life changing diapers, you know how important this is.

Up next, we have a couple of announcements.

As a reminder, Councilmember Karen Segman officially resigned her seat on June 27th following our final regular meeting of the spring session.

In accordance with town ordinance, I announced the vacancy during council's special meeting last week, and the town clerk posted notice of the vacancy today, September 10th.

This vacant position is one of the council seats that is on the November 4th ballot.

As a result, if some were one were to be appointed, they would serve until December 10th, when the newly elected council is officially seated.

Following close of the application window on October 10th, this item will come back to council on October 22nd.

Our second announcement is an invitation for members of the public to attend a welcome reception for our new town manager, Ted Voorhees next Wednesday, September 17th from 5 to 545 at the library.

Immediately following at 6 p.m.

Council will hold our first work session also at the library.

There are more of you than there is of him, so come to where he is and make sure that he gets to know you.

Council members, does anyone have something to share?

Okay.

Moving right along.

Now we invite members of the public to comment on items not on the printed agenda or to bring a petition forward.

That's a no, so we're gonna keep rolling.

Next is our consent agenda.

Council members, before we proceed, please note a small procedural change requested by the town clerk.

Going forward, rather than moving item R1 as we've done in the past, I'll simply ask for a motion to approve the consent agenda, followed by a second and a vote.

So do I have a motion?

Second.

Move by Councilmember Ryan, seconded by Councilmember Nollert.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, please say nay.

Motion is unanimous.

Okay.

Now we're moving on to item number eleven, which is a tropical storm Chantal overview.

Our presenter is Kelly Drayton, our director of emergency preparedness and risk management.

Welcome, Ms.

Drayton.

All right, Brittany, what's the password?

What?

C Oh, just CC.

Thank you.

Now I know the password too.

It's gonna be changed, I'm sure.

Yeah, it's gonna be changed immediately after this meeting.

Absolutely.

All right, good evening, Mayor and Council.

My name is Kelly Drayton.

I serve as your director of emergency preparedness and risk management.

And we are not giving it here.

The screen's not on in front of us.

Yeah, we don't see anything in front of us.

You have to sing now.

We'll take a brief moment for our we'll be right back.

Technical difficulties.

I appreciate the pause.

We have this on our control.

Although this is out of mind.

Do you want to just go ahead and we will turn our heads?

Because this seems, you know.

I think we're we're not that fragile.

It's behind you.

I was wondering if it's broadcasting.

Oh, do we know if it's on the broadcast?

I believe it's on the broadcast.

Okay, then I think we can turn our heads.

We'll we'll we'll rough it.

All right.

Uh well, good evening, Mayor Council.

My name is Kelly Drayton.

I serve as your director of emergency preparedness and risk management, and I'm here to provide you a brief overview of the town's response and recovery efforts to Tropical Storm Chantal.

This presentation will cover our immediate response, short and long-term recovery, and an overview of financial impacts.

I wanted to start by highlighting three key messages about Tropical Storm Chantal.

First, this was an unexpected and unprecedented event.

Data from the National Oceanic and Administrative and Atmospheric Administration puts this storm in the 500 to 1,000 year flood category.

And despite this, our emergency procedures and protocols served us well.

Finally, recovering from this storm for our community will be long, measured in months, not weeks.

Part of the challenges around our initial response to this event surrounded the forecast.

Initial forecasts from the National Weather Service on July 3rd and 4th identified a developing tropical system, but suggested that the primary impacts and risks for heavy rain were confined to eastern North Carolina, with only one to two inches expected for central North Carolina.

That forecast changed the morning of July 6th when a westward shift in the storm's track prompted an issuance of an update, still citing the worst case scenario being about three and a half inches of rain for our area.

That situation escalated dramatically the evening of the 6th when the National Weather Service issued an urgent update, increasing the rainfall forecast to a potential of six to nine inches overnight.

At this point, the town's emergency operations center was activated to provide overall support and coordination for townwide emergency response operations.

While this forecast was alarming, the reality of the event was even more severe.

The actual rate of precipitation was historically unprecedented, causing on the ground conditions to deteriorate far more rapidly than could be anticipated, resulting in flooding that exceeded even the most severe meteorological predictions.

Life safety.

Life safety is the primary priority during emergencies, and public safety personnel from the town, the county, and the region worked to prioritize and respond to critical life safety calls.

Orange County 911 received approximately 2300 calls during this time period, and within Chapel Hill alone, we responded to a record 72 water rescues.

As the event began to stabilize in the early hours of July 7th, town staff worked to clear the backlog of 911 calls, place equipment back in service, relieve crews that have been working overnight, and work through our joint information system to provide critical updates to the public.

As we pivoted towards short-term recovery, the tremendous impact of the storm became evident.

Staff coordinated with Orange County Emergency Management to activate a shelter for displaced residents.

And within our emergency operations center, we worked to support our affordable housing and community connections team to relocate 37 public housing units to hotels.

Simultaneously, we engaged the town's crisis team and Orange County Department of Social Services to begin individual casework and wraparound services for all displaced residents.

Our fire department and building and development services staff began completing damage assessments Monday morning so that we could provide preliminary damage estimates to the county, information that is critical to receiving a disaster declaration.

And understanding the devastation to our business community, staff worked with the Orange County Chamber to host an initial information session for impacted businesses on Wednesday, July 9th.

Through our emergency operations center, our economic development team served as a liaison between the business community and other town and county departments, providing a one-stop shop for information, resources, and support in the weeks and months to come.

Town emergency management staff also worked with county and state emergency management officials to submit our initial damage assessment information to FEMA for consideration of a disaster declaration.

To date, Orange County has received a federal disaster declaration from the small business administration, a program that provides small low interest loans.

We have received a state disaster declaration for individual assistance.

These are financial payments made directly to individuals who have been impacted by tropical storm Chantal, and we have yet to receive a disaster declaration at the state or federal level for public assistance, which would provide financial support directly to public agencies for uninsured losses.

As I mentioned at the start of this presentation, recovery from tropical storm Chantal will take many months.

With that in mind, we have established a long-term recovery group with representatives from the county, faith-based nonprofit businesses, and other organizations.

The goal of this group is to unite recovery resources with those most vulnerable in our community to ensure that everyone is able to recover from a disaster.

This work includes ongoing disaster case management, volunteer coordination, housing support, and public relations coordination.

This group will also be focusing on long-term mitigation strategies, including structural measures such as green infrastructure and non-structural measures as property buyouts for key properties like Camelot.

Finally, the long-term recovery group work also includes the management and disbursement of the community giving fund, a tropical storm Chantal specific donation fund that was set up in the days preceding the storm.

To date, this fund has approximately $84,000, and our long-term recovery group is in the final stages of establishing a structure for the disbursement of these funds.

As we look towards rebuilding, we are partnering with Orange County to hire a third-party consultant to develop a formal after action report.

This report will capture what went well, opportunities for improvement, and to find key corrective action items.

As elected officials, your feedback is important, and we are working with the consultants to develop a survey designed to capture your thoughts and input.

This survey will be distributed to you via email later this month.

With much of this after action work underway, we do anticipate the final report to be published in November.

And finally, I wanted to close by providing an overview of damages across the town.

Commercial property includes 101 businesses across Eastgate University Place and Mario Caucus Plaza.

The residential damages includes estimates from 215 properties.

The final four rows of this chart show the various categories of damages across town-owned property, most notably the damage to the greenway, which you can see is substantive.

There's also approximately a half million dollars in damages to public right-of-way infrastructure across the town.

I do want to note that the final two categories depict insured losses.

So while those damage estimates are accurate, the costs incurred to the town is much lower than what's listed in the chart.

And while these numbers are substantive, staff has been working proactively to begin addressing these items.

Parks has restored the playground at Chapel Hill Community Center and Umstead Park.

We're under contract to complete the repairs at the soccer fields at Homestead, and we expect to complete that work next week.

We are in the final stages of selecting a vendor to complete the repairs to the volleyball court at Umstead.

Using staff capacity, public works has already completed numerous right-of-way projects, including repairs to sidewalks, streets, and traffic signals.

All this work is being done using federal guidelines to ensure that work is eligible for reimbursement should we receive a disaster declaration.

We continue to work across town, county, and local partners to provide support and resources for our residents, restore our community, and build overall resilience.

With that, I would be happy to take any questions.

Council questions.

Councilmember Miller Fushi, followed by Council Member Noller.

Thank you so much, Kelly, for this presentation and the group conversations that we had.

They were very informative.

I believe my question isn't necessarily directed at you.

But rather as I'm thinking about our greenways and the amount of destruction that they have incurred with Chantel.

When we have certain things happen with roads, we have like things that are triggered.

We have to, you know, give notification, provide detours, and our greenways for many people are like highways for them where they you know go to work, go to school, go to the grocery store.

And so I'm really interested in like knowing what staff has in place in terms of communication to our community members to inform them of a schedule, a potential schedule of what those repairs will look like, how we're communicating that out to them, how we're providing detours for people to continue to get around safely.

Councilmember Barry and I, we were part of the Vision Zero leadership, and we understand that when a sidewalk is closed, and in this case, our greenways are closed.

Councilmember Barry and I, we were part of the Vision Zero uh leadership, and we understand that when a sidewalk is closed, and in this case our greenways are closed, um people are still they want to, you know, uh bike and ped and get to places safely, we need to be providing the infrastructure to be able to do that.

And so in the face of not hearing about state and federal um funding uh to help you know meet our needs, our financial needs.

Um I'm really concerned that our greenways will be down for a really long time.

And so I want to know like what are we planning to do financially?

That's a question.

I know I feel like I need to ask the question.

Um what we are doing in the absence of of having the funds, um, what um staff is thinking about in terms of like quick builds that will not be as costly, but will still provide the infrastructure that our community um needs to get around.

I want to understand how we're communicating out to those community members who use our greenways as highways to get to and fro.

Um how are we providing detours for them to be able to navigate what will take a really long time?

Um and that is disruptive as we are really investing in our greenways and trying to get people out of their cars onto their bikes.

When this kind of infrastructure is damaged in this way, I want to understand what um we are doing in the immediate um future in terms of planning and communicating that out.

So I'm just interested in hearing um what staff is doing.

Absolutely.

Thank you for that question.

Uh we are continuing to have discussions about funding options again with this unknown piece of state or federal assistance.

Um we're also continuing to look at different options for uh safing up portions of the greenway for use, and um we can certainly get that to you all along with a strategic comms plan as well.

We can provide that in one of our weekly updates to council members.

Councilmember Nollert, followed by Councilmember Sharp.

Okay, then I'll come this way.

Thanks.

Uh appreciate the report.

Um I'm curious if you know if there's anything we can do to uh get information about the state individual assistance timeline.

The most recent that I've seen as of today is um messages to recipients whose case managers were telling them that uh they don't have a timeline for when money will arrive.

And I I understand it's a you know layered bureaucratic process, but if there's anything we can do to underscore the urgency of that from a town perspective, I think we would all, you know, these are these are folks who've lost a lot of stuff, and the the slower that we get them resources, the worse it is for them, and and I think the worse it looks for everyone, and I know that's not a town issue, but maybe if we can add our voice to the county or whoever else and just really reinforce that we're interested in them getting money as soon as possible.

It it seems very strange to me that it takes so long for this to happen.

Absolutely.

And we discussed that uh last week in our long-term recovery group meeting, and the state has indicated that after the disaster recovery center closes on the 12th, they expect payments to be dispersed in the next two weeks, but I can certainly provide an update in um one of our weekly council briefings.

Councilmember Sharp, followed by Councilmember Barry.

Um question, I have a couple questions, but one of them hopefully is just a quick one.

Um the 72 water rescues, were those mostly from people in cars.

Um I don't have that information at my fingertips, but we uh we can certainly track that down.

Okay.

I was just wondering what which which situations were ending up the most perilous.

Um we at some point just for our use moving forward, one of I think one of our more critical roles will be assessing how our various policies, but a lot around how things are built.

Um will we get some sort of summarized assessment of the weaknesses in our system or we you know where things went wrong and not necessarily because anybody was at fault, but just because the storms are getting stronger and stronger so that we can kind of understand better how we should move forward rather than just you know, so that we can be proactive as well as responsive.

Yeah, we can certainly talk more about that.

I think the reality of a storm of this caliber, it's very challenging to be prepared for that amount of rain.

Um we're always looking at how we can mitigate those risks and build our infrastructure better and how we can incorporate things into zoning policies and things like that.

Um but we can certainly talk a little bit more about what specific report might be helpful for the council.

Okay, yeah.

My and my my question is more um uh I I don't mean to imply that we could have anticipated this storm better, and I think that the likelihood is that we will continue to have storms that we can't anticipate, like they're just so that's why I'm hoping we can just all we can do is learn as we move forward, right?

So I just want to make sure that we have that step of the process.

Absolutely.

Councilmember Barry, followed by Councilmember Searing.

Thank you.

Thank you very much for this.

Um I'm gonna lead off um from something that Councilmember Miller Fushi helped me to remember.

There's a stretch.

There are state roads, we have many state-owned roads in Chapel Hill, and there is one, um Franklin, just as it merges with 15501.

Um I think the water may have breached Booker Creek, may have breached there.

Uh it definitely deteriorated there at that bridge and uh was damaged, and I'm curious um when they anticipate repairing it there, because I know a lot of people walk that way.

So we have bicyclists, but we also have pedestrians who will get off the bus and walk back, or they'll I walk that way, but I don't have to.

I think there are several people who have to.

So to Councilman Member Miller Fushi's point of helping people understand where else they can go to get around.

Um I hope that they don't do what I did a couple of times, which is to walk in the street, because that was the quickest way that I could figure out how to get um to the next point.

So curious about the state roads.

Um culverts.

I recall um our stormwater department coming in from public works sharing with us the replacement of culverts.

Um I imagine that what we're looking at right now is is the result of a culvert that was insufficient to handle the water.

And I am curious if these were, and it also goes back to Councilmember.

Elizabeth's I can't see there.

Thank you.

I want to rename you.

Councilmember Sharp's question of are we going to look at this and see where we need to pick up the pace and replacing things?

Because although this is unprecedented, um I am concerned, and I think everyone is concerned about what if the next storm may not be as strong, but can cause we've already had some things weakened.

Where do we need to to fix them, right?

So it doesn't have to be as strong because we've been weakened.

Then the third thing, backlog of 911 calls.

I have talked with several people who called.

One person was trapped in her home, but she was safe.

She was upstairs, she was on a second floor flat.

Um her car was submerged, and she didn't get a call back until many hours later.

So help us understand that the realities of 911 when everybody needs help.

Like you said, this is an unprecedented event, and you're talking about really complex issues with capacity that quite frankly is really challenging in a 911 system.

They're set up for staff, a staffing model for blue sky operations, quite honestly.

And while they can scale up if they know about an incident, the reality of something like this is those systems just aren't designed for that call volume.

And we continue to have conversations with Orange County as they do with all of their partners about how to flex that capacity.

Um we have disaster radio plans that we uh implement when we have the system get overwhelmed, but it is inherently chaotic.

Um, and we just continue to have those conversations about you know how can we flex capacity during high impact events like this.

Thank I think it's important for us to know that.

Um, and I'm asking you because you can articulate it so well, because this is what we're hearing from others is for us to understand the realities of what we're facing, and it was very rapid.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Uh Councilmember Shearing?

Yeah, thank you.

Um last year our voters approved a $2 million bond issue for Greenways.

Has there been any consideration among the staff of taking some or uh all of that uh bond $2 million and using it to jumpstart our greenway repairs while we wait uh for other funding?

Yes, there has been part of the design money that I discussed that we identified is from a parks bond that was for trail work.

How much was that?

We identified about $900,000.

And so that's being used right now for repairs on the greenways.

We've discussed earmarking it for the design phase of those greenway.

So this is just designing the repair.

It's not even doing the actual repair.

And it's costing nearly a million dollars.

Correct.

And that's included in that price tag of $5.9 million for the greenway repairs.

That includes the design phase.

Okay.

And so that so that $900,000 that we're using for the design phase of the repairs is coming out of the $2 million bond.

That's my understanding.

I can confirm with our budget director.

Okay.

And my second question is I would be in favor of spending the rest of the $2 million to try and get the repairs going and then hoping that we're gonna replenish that with Federal and State Disaster Declaration money.

The second question I have is that it relates to some of my colleagues have asked about temporary um uh solutions because these greenways do get so used and there are so many people using them even though they are technically closed for liability purposes, I understand.

Um I have talked about this for years, but there are other ways to build a trail.

They're not as um expensive, uh not as admittedly not as durable, but natural service trail building um can build a you know four-foot wide hard packed dirt trail surface, you know, or gravel, top-a-hole gravel um for about thirty-five thousand dollars a mile instead of two million dollars a mile.

So even if it's temporary, even if we're banking some trails that would allow people just to walk and ride their bikes and kids to you know get from one place to another, that might be an option that we could use to um to help our folks get around and um while we wait for these millions and millions of dollars of repairs.

So are you all considering any of that?

Absolutely.

Our parks department is considering every eventuality as we wait to hear about our disaster declaration, which hopefully will be in about mid-October.

I'm sorry, I I need a little more specificity in that.

If you do if you don't have it, it's fine.

I would just like to um get a report from you and the town manager and whoever else, if you are all considering that.

And I'm happy to provide, as I've had many times before examples of other communities that are using these trails.

And and I know that we've always been reluctant to use those sorts of technologies, but perhaps this is a time in which we could, you know, copy some of our fellow communities and get some of our people moving again.

So I'm happy to I would like to have a report on whether you're considering that and exactly what you're considering, and I'm happy to help you know provide examples of other communities that are doing it.

Absolutely.

We can provide additional information.

Councilmember McCullough and then back to Councilmember Barry.

Yeah.

Um I have a couple of questions.

One is whether that design phase will include engineering drawings.

I'll have to get that information for you.

I don't know off the top of my head.

Okay.

Um the after action report that the consultant is working on.

I wonder if you can give us an idea of what that's going to include.

Is it going to be purely processed?

Is it going to be evaluating infrastructure issues?

Um what?

Um it will be some of everything.

They typically don't limit those discussions, so anything that people want to discuss in those feedback sessions are fair game.

Um typically we see things focusing on communication, tactics, uh resources, and then um uh training and exercises are kind of our big pots, but there's nothing that's kind of outside of the scope, so to speak.

Okay, thank you.

Councilmember Barry?

Thank you.

You were saying you were saying in response to Councilmember Searing's question about the alternative methods.

You were starting to say that when we meet, and we're hearing from, but I didn't get to hear the rest of that statement.

So he was asking, would you consider?

Are you considering these the alternative methods of replacing a trail for temporary purposes?

Um I thought you said I thought you were about to say when we meet.

Does that jog you over?

Um FEMA told us initially that they are taking as much as three months to provide their decision on a disaster declaration.

And based on when they were on site to do the preliminary damage assessment, we would expect that to come in mid-October.

So that's what I was referencing.

Okay.

So we should have some some idea in mid-October where they stand, or they may just we should have some idea.

Great.

We'll have a better sense of if they've decided anything.

If at that point not I would be interested in us uh pursuing other, you know, other methods.

Such is what councilmember Searine has said.

So I'd rather not, I want to be clear here, town manager.

Um that I would love for us to discuss what else we could do as a body.

I can't speak for this body, but I would like to express my interest.

Um I feel like we should have done this in a different order, which is that we and we jumped into QA, but I feel like the the piece that I think went unsaid is just how grateful I know we all are for kind of what you all have done for this community.

I mean, truly, it's pretty mind-boggling to imagine what you all have managed and gone through and sacrificed, and we had folks whose own homes were flooded and they were here.

Um we've had people for you know, days and days at a time um sleeping in the EOC and working around the clock.

So these are all wonderful questions, and I feel like the the thing I really want you all to hear and that I want you to share with all your staff and to make sure that they know how grateful we are.

Um this was beyond unprecedented, and everybody just jumped into action as they always do.

And then you all got a break, and then there was a tragedy at the hotel.

Um, and it just keeps coming, and you all keep showing up and doing really phenomenal work.

So I don't want it to, you know, we all are doing our job and asking you really good questions.

And I don't want that to overshadow just the gratitude.

And I will tell you, I don't often have people stop me on the street and thank me.

And in the past month, I've had so many people stopping me and thanking me, and that's because of you all because of what you've done, because of the amazing work you've done, because of all the advocacy and helping people get the support they need and getting people in hotels.

That's not that was not that was not a must do.

That was the Chapel Hill way and what the staff chose to do.

So I really do feel like amidst all the after action and all the things that we always want to do better.

I really hope you all are conveying to your staff that we know a little bit of how intense this all was and how many people you saved and helped.

So thank you.

Um I think my only question at this point is about um do you have recommendations for the future about what kind of um infrastructure or what kind of support we could set up to enable you all to kind of um have a way of working with some of the really great community organizations that were really amazing as well in jumping in and understanding that there are things that the town can't do, there are things that um volunteers should not be doing.

Um, and I'm just wondering if there are ways to think about that or ways to add capacity by kind of at least being able to tell volunteers like, hey, um, you know, there are folks over there who need help moving furniture or whatever the case may be.

And I'm sure some of that is happening, but I'm just wondering if you have kind of ideas for the future of how we can add, you know, in a safe legal way.

We can add an ability to work with volunteers so that they can do some things that um that our staff like just can't do.

Yeah, and one of the things that I can highlight after an event um of this size, part of our after action process typically ends up identifying a number of community organizations and volunteer groups that we weren't aware of because they're new to the area or have grown or for whatever reason uh aren't on our voad registry registry, which is our volunteer organizations active during disaster.

So when we have an event of this size and scope, uh the county maintains that registry and they stand up a meeting cadence with our VoAD partners where we take uh unmet community needs and try to match them with some of our VoAD organizations that are working in that space.

So after an event like this, we work to identify groups that maybe we're not leveraging as much as we could be and make sure that they're on that registry.

That way, when we stand up our EOC structures, we have that uh typically it's a weekly meeting with our VOADs, they're already plugged in and getting that information, and we're utilizing them as best we can.

That's really great to hear.

Yeah, thank you for that.

Um, uh-huh.

Councilmember Miller Fushi.

Yeah, my one last question is um I would be really interested in also knowing in within Orange County.

What are the resources that are kind of like shared amongst um towns or municipalities?

I know like with Carborough, um, they had a number of vehicles that went down, and they were able to call out and you know, bring things in.

Uh just trying to understand the scope of like the ways in which we have resources or limited resources, but also access to resources is going to be really helpful for me as well, just to get that high-level kind of like vision and understanding of what we have in terms at our um helm to be able to, you know, meet the moment when needed.

That would be helpful for me.

Yeah, more about like mutual aid and our emergency management assistance compact and things like that.

Exactly.

Yeah, that would be really helpful.

Sure.

Because I don't know all like again, the amazing work y'all do, just how um intricate the systems are.

I think I mentioned in our you know um meeting, just how you even interact with the school system.

Um, is it just really really impressive?

And so we are I'm learning, and I think the more that I know um the less I'll be like, well, can we do this?

Like it'll just, you know, because we just don't know all that you all do.

Absolutely.

Um thank you all again.

Um I did hear an interest from some council members in understanding more about what we could do going forward in terms of um less permanent trails.

I know there are ADA consider, I know there are a lot of things, but um council is there a general interest in at least learning more about what that could so unanimously if we could um figure out a way that to add that to an upcoming work session or something.

I think that it that that would be of great interest to try and figure out some ways to get people moving.

Um, because I don't think it's just the storm, although that's a good reason.

But I think um with federal funding and state funding looking the way they do, we may want to have some other options.

So thank you very much again.

Thank you all for all you do, and we will look forward to taking the survey when it comes because we just love surveys.

Thank you.

All right.

Um item number 12 is a funding plan for our local affordable housing funding program.

Emily Holt, our affordable housing manager, is here to walk us through.

Welcome, Ms.

Holt.

Thank you.

Good evening, Mayor and Council.

My name is Emily Holt, and I'm the affordable housing manager in the Department of Affordable Housing and Community Connections.

Tonight we are asking council to approve R 4, which includes a recommended funding plan for fiscal year 2026.

We're seeking council action on the affordable housing funding program that council authorized in January of 2025.

This program covers all of our local funding and requires council to approve any funding award that exceeds 100,000.

The funding available in this round includes bond funding that voters approved in two referendums as well as other local funding.

The Affordable Housing Funding Program has a unified set of priorities for all of our local funding, which council also approved last January.

These include rental housing for households earning 50% of the area median income or below, which is currently about $60,000.

High impact projects.

This is either determined by project size or a specific housing need that's being served.

Shovel readiness or projects that are ready to start quickly and will be completed within three years.

Proximity to frequent public transit, such as the planned bus rapid transit line, projects that bring in substantial outside funding to leverage town dollars, and projects with environmentally friendly and sustainable design.

The scoring methodology that staff use are based on these priorities.

We're really excited about the funding plan we're bringing to you this evening.

It will support the development of nearly 200 new affordable units and the acquisition of four.

The remaining about half a million dollars comes from our annual allocation to affordable housing from the general fund.

All house served in the recommended projects will uh will earn at or less than 60% of the area median income.

That's about $70,000.

And four will serve extremely low-income households at 30% AMI or below.

The funding plan leverages an impressive $60 million from outside sources.

The funding application process began when affordable housing staff released the application on June 26th.

June 26th.

We received four total funding requests.

Staff reviewed those requests against the approved local funding priorities and used a scoring rubric to guide our evaluation.

So the four requests we received are listed here.

We are recommending funding for two of these TAF Mills Group's Hillside Trace New Construction Project and Hope North Carolina's acquisition project.

The two projects not recommended for funding scored substantially lower than the two recommended projects and below the scoring threshold that we typically use to consider funding requests.

It will not be completed within three years, and it does not yet have zoning approval or substantial non-town funding committed.

It also requests a relatively high level of town subsidy per unit, and it's a relatively small project.

The community home test trust project serves a relatively higher income level, and it also had some lower scores on elements related to design and leverage.

A little more about the recommended projects.

Here we see TAF Mills Group's Hillside Trace Project.

They applied for $4 million to subsidize the construction of $190 units.

Council approved this project last spring.

It's the largest affordable housing project project yet approved in the town to date, and it's located along the planned BRT line and within walking distance to Franklin Street.

TAF Mills plans to apply very soon for a 4% low-income housing tax credit and tax exempt bonds from the North Carolina Housing Finance Agency to leverage town funding.

And they have committed to a 50-year affordability period.

Hope North Carolina requested town funding to purchase four units in Habitat for Humanities Weavers Grove community.

Those four units will each be rented to up to two adults with intellectual and developmental disabilities who have income levels below 30% of area median income.

The subsidized rents on those units will enable them to live independently while receiving supportive services.

Hope North Carolina hopes to eventually purchase a total of 10 units in that community.

This will be an interactive GIS-based dashboard and we'll share project characteristics and funding trends so that the community and you all can better see our work and where it's going and the status of the projects that we fund.

So keep a lookout.

And finally, uh tonight we are again asking council to consider approving our four.

And thank you very much.

A dashboard with funding tracker and totally geeking out, but okay.

That's exciting.

Council um council questions, then we'll move to members of the public, and then we'll come back for comments.

Councilmember Nollert.

Thanks, Emily.

Um I know there were some questions about whether it's feasible to split some of the recommended funding and and meet multiple project needs.

Um can you talk about why that is not what you're recommending?

Sure.

Um I mean I think it starts with scoring.

So um we typically follow the thresholds that we set and um the projects not recommended didn't meet those.

I think if they had scored higher and above that threshold, we might be talking more about you know, how do we spread the funding more um amongst the highest scoring projects that are kind of grouped together, but that was not how things came out once the scoring was done.

Uh and are the beyond the scoring, are there sort of some other substantive distinctions and what would happen if we were to do that?

So if, for example, money were taken away from the Hillside Trace project, um, we already, you know, we know what their gap is and the money that we are recommending is far below that.

There's still more money that they're needing to raise.

So it would further um extend that gap.

And um in general, the North Carolina Housing Finance Agency tends to um it catches their eye, the more local um support they get, financial support, and so you know that works in in the project's favor as well.

Got it.

Um I know that the state used to have the workforce housing loan program to help meet gap financing and that they allocated zero dollars to it and then didn't pass a budget anyway.

So I recognize that this is a really important type of project that generates a lot of units and that there are even fewer funding sources for it than there used to be.

So thank you.

Um Councilmember Miller Fishi?

Yeah, I think um Councilmember Nollert um asked um one of the questions that I had.

Um, and I'm wondering how you all are thinking about this as well.

Um we have very limited um I guess levers to pool in terms of our affordable housing partners who offer um home ownership opportunities like Habitat does, especially when Habitat is working very closely with um community members and organizations that have identified um communities that have been and continue to lose home ownership.

And the Carver Street project is one of those.

And we get a lot of rentals in terms of affordability, and we absolutely need those.

My concern is how you all are thinking about and zooming out in terms of that home ownership piece and opportunity.

Um that's really important.

And so when I think about like the progress we've also made with um folks moving out of our town-owned uh public housing, um they've been able to move into housing that we've um supported um with our bond money and so forth.

And so I'm concerned that we are cutting off that ecosystem in some in some way, and how you all are thinking about the allocation of funding in in that way.

Um to make sure that as we're thinking about complete communities, we're thinking about yes, rental, but also home ownership as it pertains to affordable housing.

So how did that factor into y'all's thinking about that networking and that system that seems to be working for us?

Um we have um dedicated a lot of funding in past years, past funding rounds um to both the Northside Neighborhood Initiative and um homeownership projects in general.

This time around we you know, the way that the applications came in, we weren't able to support two you know large commitments to two projects.

Um we have allocated funding to the Carver Street project um a little over a year ago.

Um and you know we have shown our support with that commitment.

It's just came out um this time that this was you know, at this at this juncture, this was not the year based on the amount of work still to do on that project for them to receive that funding.

So the three years out for zoning was a factor for their scoring.

Yeah.

And the not going through the zoning process yet was also made them score lower.

In terms of the four million dollar and local bond funding, is there no recourse in terms of being able to up that four million?

Is that a possibility?

Yes.

Um this round to because I'm a I'm afraid that a very good project that really speaks to a lot of um what this council values, what we know that you all value as well will potentially be scrapped and the progress made on it.

That's a real concern for me.

Um but that you know that's one three and a half of 15.

So that will come up again how much we want to approve in the next issuance and what is going to be done with that money.

Have you all spoken with Habitat to see what their timeline potentially would be and how it aligns with the next allocation so as to not lose the momentum made and the uh investment that we've already put as a town into this project and potentially losing that?

I've talked with Habitat about um potential, you know, the timeline of our additional funding rounds and I have shared that it there, you know, it's uncertain right now when the next round of funding that will go out to partners is.

Um we've named a few projects um during the conversations about bond last year, last fall and spring, um, and additional projects um are being talked about for projects on town owned land.

But things change, we get grants, you know, we costs go down.

I don't know about that.

Um but that you know that is not absolutely set in stone until the next round comes to council.

But right now I think we are set with three and a half million in bond funding being what we're able to um allocate this evening.

When you say it's set, what does that mean?

Um I'm sorry with what I said before that.

Well, who's setting the 3.5 or the 4 million?

Well, I think um Amy Onlin brought in in June, I think there was a council resolution um that established how much of the different areas of the bond were going to be released and available.

Okay.

Um we started with three and a half.

Yeah.

Does some of that related to debt capacity?

I I don't know.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'd just be interested in like how those numbers are uh penciling out um with debt capacity and all of that stuff.

Okay.

Um but my concern is um losing the momentum.

Um we've invested in it um and if there's an opportunity to to meet the need to get the units, especially if they're um a pathway to home ownership.

Um that's really um an important interest of mine.

Thank you so much.

Councilmember Barry.

Thank you.

Thank um questions.

Oh, so it's not about the R.

Will it show which um organizations that have funded as well?

Yes.

Can't hear you very well.

Oh, oops.

Sorry.

Thank you.

Um it will show um over the years where geographically we funded, which partner agencies we funded as well.

I think that will be helpful.

Okay.

Um good.

What I also think would be helpful for us is for us to actually see, and this is getting into the weeds, but it would be helpful for us to see the um matrix of the application.

So there were only four for us to understand where the the other two fell short.

And did you have a conversation with them with the other two?

Um Habitat and Community Home Trust?

I have talked to Habitat, yes.

And um, you know, sometimes people will call us during the application process and want to talk through how their project scored, or sometimes it's a resubmission and and they're interested in where they fell and what might be movable.

Um so we we work with people and I have talked to Habitat.

Okay.

Okay.

It would be helpful for us to see having been one who actually helped to submit applications to the town.

I know that it's a challenge.

Um as the applicant side is what I'm trying to say.

There was a question that I had about your comment regarding Hope and C.

Mm-hmm.

And there are to be four units that you were supporting.

And I thought I heard you say up to two individuals with intellectual and developmental disabilities.

So can you say more about that?

Um their plan is to purchase four units and their two bedroom.

And so they're there they can put up to two people in that two bedroom unit.

Yeah.

So not two across the four.

It really could be up to eight.

Okay.

Um circumstance, you know, depending on the circumstances.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Um then there has been voice concern about future funds, and I heard my colleague talking to that, but I've also heard it separately about that.

Um there's been concern voiced about are those funds already spoken for?

And I'd like to know if they are, and maybe I missed it this evening where you were trying to respond or share.

The additional three and a half bonds, but there's still eleven and a half.

Um my understanding, and I mean he's not here, but um we're taking it in rounds.

And so until council okays the next bond issuance, there's nothing official um that's been spoken for on that.

Is that would you Okay?

But you just used a keyword there.

Okay.

Official.

But unofficially.

Oh.

Um I mean, when we were all talking and presentations were given during the bond conversations, there are projects that were under the affordable housing bubble and things like fire station redevelopment, Legion Road and possible other um like a public housing redevelopment.

They they were general at that point beyond that.

And and those are not those were not in the bond language, those have not been approved by council.

But we I think we were um it was recommended that we list specific projects, and that's at the time what we put there.

Okay.

Very helpful um to understand, but it also can be, and so I think it's incumbent upon us.

It can be very um I'll wait until my comments.

That's it for questions.

Thank you.

So, Emily, can I just make sure that I understand?

Um it sounds like the LITEC funding in order to be competitive, the four million is what's is what y'all are saying is is needed?

Um I think more is needed.

We didn't we only released four million.

So it if less is given, then you know, they're closer to being infeasible.

Okay.

Um when you talk about those other, I mean, you know, we want to do all the projects, but when you talk about the other projects that are on town own land, um are you saying that those would probably add up to the full bond amount?

Um they could.

Okay.

Yeah.

Um I do I understand what you're saying, you know, that earlier on things are less competitive that as things are really ready to come out of the ground, we want to be making sure that happens.

I guess are there other um are there other ways besides the bonds to potentially fund this project, knowing that we did already support it, we clearly like it.

Um it's not that we don't want it and that we also do want that good mix of rental and home ownership and certainly the um the LITEC project is a big deal for us.

So I guess are there other ways besides the $15 million bond that folks could be applying for the funds for this project, you know, once they're through the you know, once they're through the approval process.

Um additional town funding rounds, um, which is part of you know part of this conversation.

We've been very successful with community project funding grants.

Um another of our projects is up for uh if it is included in the federal budget next year, the Legion Road project has been selected.

Right.

Um so that so that could come out of the bond conversation is what you're saying.

I think lately they haven't, I think last year they didn't let nonprofits apply for that.

So it's um I would say that you know, I I know Habitat's gotten one of those as well.

Umpowerment has, I I think they changed it last time that it was supposed to be more municipalities that applied for those.

So things shift, and then last year they didn't have it at all.

So I don't know if I answered your question.

I mean, you just may not be able to, yes.

I think you've got to do that.

I think everybody's always looking for more funding systems.

No, no, for sure.

I'm just wondering if there are kind of directions we could give or things, you know, we we could say, you know, we don't know about the bond funding, but our penny for affordable housing, you know, that could be a place where you apply type of thing, so that we could give at least an option for a pathway, since I think it's something that you all want, we all want.

Clearly um the applicant and you know the partners want it.

So I'm just wondering if there's a way that we can say, like not this pot, but but you know, and we can't promise you anything, but try over here, because this is a way that we could make this happen.

Yeah, so I can I can speak to that.

So I think um our challenge is limited resources with many great projects that we support.

Um so we have encouraged habitat and we always encourage applicants to try again.

Um that's what happened with Hope and C's application.

You all remember they applied last year.

Similarly, they weren't as far along, they didn't have other funding secured, they got further along, they secured other funding, they worked harder on their application, they consulted with staff.

Now they are they scored better and in our better position.

So I would say for any applicant that is not successful in receiving funding, we encourage them to apply again.

And as long as council allocates local funding to what we were calling our affordable housing development reserve, now we're calling that the affordable housing funding program.

That would be a great opportunity for habitat for Carver Street next year to consider when they are further along.

Um that amount, if it's consistent with what's allocated this year, is about a million dollars.

Um so that is an option for them.

And then as Emily said, if we receive 1.5 million for Legion Road and community project funding, we would then um that could free up those resources to go towards other projects.

And on I did want to add to on the homeownership question, that continues to be a major priority for us.

Part of why it's prioritized in the criteria that we establish is that is what the market is calling for, and we know there's real need for rental housing, especially for 30% AMI and below.

So we call that out as a priority, but homeownership continues to be a priority for the town.

Um we've invested in many projects.

We shared that with you all in a council um question response.

We've invested $13 million in homeownership projects over the next five years.

We have a pretty even split of rental housing and homeownership currently in our subsidized affordable housing.

So that's something that I think uh we have done very well historically and will continue to prioritize.

So habitat has been very successful in securing funding from the town historically.

Um and I anticipate that we will continue to recommend um support for homeownership projects.

Yeah, thank you.

And thank you for the big picture, because I don't remember necessarily um the split or kind of where we are.

So that's really helpful.

Um I believe we have members of the public wishing to speak.

Um just a reminder that we very much want to hear from you if um Mayor Pro Tem Ryan will call the first name and then the second name.

So if the first person can come on up to the mic and the second person can come down and be on deck and ready to go.

Um you will have three minutes and um we also ask um for no um applause or booing or um reactions so that people feel comfortable.

Um and we are excited to hear from you.

Okay, our first speaker is Heather Farrell, followed by Kathy Atwater.

Welcome.

Hi, thanks for having me.

Um I'm here to ask you to consider Habitat's request for funding the Carver Street Project.

I'm the architect on the project, working alongside Habitat and the Northside Neighborhood Initiative.

And this is the second affordable housing project in the Northside neighborhood that this team has worked on together.

The first being the Gaddis Court on North Robertson across from Hargraves, which provides four homes to families who otherwise would not be able to afford to live in the heart of Chapel Hill.

I'm also here tonight, not just as a member of the project team, but as a resident of the Northside neighborhood.

I'm a Northside Elementary School parent, and I'm also a member of the Jackson Center's Compass Group.

I want to tell you why this project matters to the neighborhood and why it should be a priority to the town.

It is uniquely local.

The developers, engineers, and design team are all based in Chapel Hill.

The people who will actually build these homes are members of the community.

And maybe some of you all will come and help swing a hammer.

It's also an infill project.

It's located less than a thousand feet from Northside Elementary School and would provide these families direct access to the Tanyard Branch Trail, Umstead Park, public transit, and in walking distance to downtown.

Most importantly, it is rooted in the Northside community, and it reflects both the strength of this neighborhood as well as the values of the town of Chapel Hill.

The project is being developed under the direction of the Northside leaders, whose guidance has played a crucial role from the inception of the project and throughout the design process.

The Carver Street Project will contribute to leadership's vision of increasing black home ownership in the neighborhood.

And it is a valuable opportunity for the town to join this effort and show its support for the beautiful, vibrant, and resilient Northside neighborhood.

And I wanted to add that we've talked a lot about home ownership.

This is also community ownership, and that's key in making the project successful.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Kathy Atwater, followed by George Barrett.

Good evening, everyone.

My name is Kathy Atwater.

I am a fourth generation resident of the Northside community.

Proud to say that this has been home from my birth, and I've wanted to share from the Compass Group a letter.

And it may go over three minutes, so if you can give me one minute extra as I read it.

But it's to Mayor Anderson, the members of the Chapel Hill Town Council.

We, the members of the Compass Group, which directs the N and I in acquisitions to preserve these historically black neighborhoods of Chapel Hill, are requesting approval of funding for the Habitat Carver Street Project.

For over ten years, we have been the central component of the Northside Neighborhood Initiative, and we are proud to advance forward with long-term residents and allies vision of a neighborhood that is vital, family-friendly, socially cohesive, multi-generational, mixed income, and diverse.

When we directed the NNI to acquire and hold 202 and 204 Carver Street in the land bank, a process that took several years, tracking down 17 heirs, we were excited that it would result in 12 units of affordable housing, three times larger than any land bank outcome in the NNI's history.

Carver Street is an exceptional opportunity to provide affordable housing in Northside, a strategy that has been most effective in bringing black families with historic connections back into the neighborhood.

Two examples we'd like to give of the effectiveness of this strategy.

Ms.

Watson and Miss Wilson.

Miss Watson, a single mother of three, was able to purchase her home through Habitat and is now raising her family in the community where her mother and older relatives, me being one.

Miss Wilson was able to return back to Chapel Hill upon retiring from her job in the DC area and was able to acquire a habitat home in Northside where she grew up and where she was able to care for her disabled daughter.

And there are many other examples that we can give, but Tom will not allow it.

We have been working with Habitat for over two years on the creative and complicated infrastructural design and developing an equitable selection process that stewards families and homeownership, especially families who are seeking to return to the home place.

Their families have resided for generations.

And that's why we are so adamant of seeing it going forward.

Carver Street is a great place to attract families.

With it being behind, as Heather has said, the elementary school is location intersees on the homogeneous street of student housing.

The implications of not funding this project are serious.

No funding could delay the project for another year at least, especially without a clear avenue for future funding.

Force an increase in minimum income levels, which significantly disadvantages low-income homeowners of color, the priority population that the NNI serves strives to serve.

The town recognizes in your affordable housing plan and the LUMO that moderate scale projects like Carver Street are more reliant on local subsidy sources and not able to achieve the same level of leverage as large LIHTC developments.

Moderate scale projects like Carver Street, especially those built by local community focused developers like Habitat are the best way to put community responsive, affordable housing developments in historically marginalized neighborhoods like Northside that truly need them.

Let's live in a world where we do not have to choose either supporting large-scale LIHTC projects or local small-scale community development projects.

The bond money is a catalyst of funds that allows us to do more.

Let's use the funds to actually support moving forward community-driven, affordable projects like Carver Street that will make a major impact in our neighborhood of Northside.

Thank you for honoring your commitment to support affordable housing for those who need it most, in particular our Chappa Hill natives and families.

And this is signed by our COMPASS Group members.

I won't go through the list because of sake of time, but thank you for your time and for your consideration.

Thank you, Ms.

Kathy.

You know I don't like to say no to you, so you got your extra time.

Thank you, ma'am.

George Barrett, followed by Nate Broman Folks.

Good evening, Mayor and Council.

My name is George Barrett, and I'm the executive director of the Marion Cheek Jackson Center.

We are in partnership with Habitat for Humanity, and we are also guided by folks like Miss Kathy Atwater and Heather, who are part of our COMPASS group.

I just want to say here that um and kind of here as a support for what the residents have said about this project and really want to think about is there ways that this project could be funded to be able to move forward.

Um as you see, uh as the what Ms.

Kathy said, this is a major project for the Northside Neighborhood Initiative.

Um I want to make sure we're not missing an opportunity at this time to fund different types and different models of affordable housing, as folks have said, um, rental but also homeownership, especially that will make a significant impact.

And I do want to take a second to think about and talk about the impact, um, knowing that that's a major criteria of this application process, but really talk about the impact that that's that this project will have on the community and what impact means.

Um, 190 units is an amazing impact on the town level.

That's great that those will be able to come, and we want more affordable housing in our in our town.

But 12 units on the impact has a major impact on the neighborhood level within Northside.

The Carver Street, which as we said is a street behind the historic North Elementary, had previously been transformed into what some folks have maybe thought of as a student rental alley.

There are actually 11 units or so of student rental on that street.

The development of Carver Street would turn the tide on this street and making a new reality where there are now going to be more home ownership units on the street than student rentals, which is a major victory for the Northside Neighborhood Initiative and a major victory for this community in reclaiming this space and reclaiming the community and reclaiming a street that has a lot of student rentals on it as a place for homeownership for diverse families and actually as a space for black families who can grow up and be in this community and live right behind Northside Elementary.

So this project is a crucial step in the neighborhood reclaiming this place.

And to quickly also talk about you know the N and I thrives off of partnerships, not only partnerships with our affordable housing development partners, but partnerships with the town and local leaders like yourselves.

And Carver Street is an amazing example of this amazing partnership, the partnership with the Jackson Center and Self Help and Habitat to figure out how will we make this possible on this topography of the land, the partnership that we are doing with Habitat right now to figure out how can we create an equitable process so that we can actually have an equitable and amazing process for folks like the folks Ms.

Kathy had mentioned, families who have historic connections to the neighborhood to be able to be homeowners, maybe for the first time and reclaim the history and legacy of Northside.

And so as I feel like this project continues to be aligned with our goals, but also the town goals of increasing black homeownership within our town and encourage you to consider ways and how we can think about to do to look at this abundantly to make sure that this project is not stopped in its tracks for another year.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay, Nate Broman Folks, followed by Jennifer Player.

Oh well.

Okay.

I think that was my first time trying it, anyways.

Good evening, Mayor and Council.

I'm Nate Broman Folkes, Vice President of Development for Taft Mills Group, we're the developer for Hillside Trace along with our development partner and community home trust.

I just want to thank you for your continued support of affordable housing.

Chapel Hill's long been at the forefront of addressing affordable housing here in the state and uh continue to be with the passage of your new uh affordable housing plan and investment strategy.

You're poised to continue to be a leader in the state.

Um so I want to thank you for your thoughtful and strategic approach to addressing this critical need in the community.

When I was last before you in April, I was uh very excited and uh happy and grateful for the unanimous support you all gave to the rezoning of Hillside Trace.

We uh continue to be incredibly excited about the opportunity Hillside Trace uh brings to Chapel Hill.

Um it's uh truly an historic opportunity to provide that level of affordable housing in an amazing downtown location, just steps from where we are tonight.

And so uh we appreciated your support then.

We are hoping and uh looking forward to uh continued support.

Our project is uh very much aligned with the town's affordable housing plans and investment strategy, and that's why it shows that in uh its high scoring in our funding application.

Um let's see, I believe I had one more thing I wanted to hit on.

Uh while we are continuing to pursue additional funding sources to fill the gap that Emily mentioned, uh, this is a critical piece to our funding need.

And having this support from the town does make it easier uh to get additional funding, does help with the tax credit application.

Uh, and so this is truly a critical uh piece that we need to continue to move forward with the development of Hillside Trace.

So thank you all.

Thank you.

Okay.

Jennifer Player, and that is the last person I have signed up.

You ready?

Good evening, Mayor and Council.

I'm Jennifer Player, CEO of Habitat for Humanity of Orange County.

I want to start by saying that we respect and value the town staff and the need for standardized scoring system for funding decisions.

All four of the funding requests represent important affordable housing initiatives for Chapel Hill, and of course, we are thrilled about our partnership with Hope NC at Weavers Grove.

We understand that our request for infrastructure funding for Carver Street scored lower because it's because it's earlier in the development process.

That said, these homes are not theoretical.

Community engagement is well underway, and Habitat is already spending pre-development dollars.

We plan to submit our conditional zoning in the next six months.

And while we hear that this is not the year for this funding request and conversations with the staff, we've not yet been made aware of another funding opportunity in the next two years for us to apply for this particular project.

As you've heard, Habitat was asked to take on this site by the Northside Neighborhood Initiative at a time when we're also building Weavers Grove, a 76 town home development in Hillsborough, and preparing to build um homestead gardens.

The lot's physical characteristics make it especially difficult and expensive to develop, and that's why meaningful subsidy is critical to carry the project through infrastructure and into vertical construction to make it shovel ready.

Unlike rental projects, there is no LITTEC equivalent for affordable homeownership, unfortunately, and we have no alternative funding source to bridge these infrastructure costs.

The reality is the more subsidy Habitat receives, the less of the projects cost, families have to cover through their mortgages, which directly impacts who can afford a habitat home.

Northside leaders and the Jackson Center are partnering with Habitat on a pilot program to guide residents through the financial preparation needed for to be eligible for Carver Street homes.

These efforts are designed to help families with deep roots in North Side stay in their community to honor this work and the commitment residents are making, as well as private funding for this pilot program through a local church.

We need financial partnership from the town.

Without closing this funding gap, affordability and outcomes for these homes are at risk.

In fact, the current estimates show that the minimum income would be $20,000 higher per family without the town's investment.

And I should say that 190 LITEC units in our community is awesome, and I celebrate that.

And we know that these are really difficult decisions.

I want us to really think about not an either-or mindset, but a both and, as George said, a both and abundant mindset.

I truly believe with the $15 million in bond funds and the annual allocation for affordable housing, that we can find the funding to support multiple community goals for rentals and affordable homeownership.

So I respectfully ask for your support so this project can move forward and deliver on our shared commitment to provide residents of Northside a shot at the American dream of owning their own home.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Council, back to you.

Comments.

Councilmember Ryan.

Yeah, I wish that I could fund them all.

I think that our staff does an amazing job.

I know they wish that they could fund everything as well.

I was glad to hear that Hope had been told maybe it's not yearly year last year, and then this year it is.

So I know that they know how worthy these projects are, and we'll continue to work to make sure that we can fund them at some point.

So I I think staff have made a thoughtful recommendation with the resources that they have right now.

Oh, Councilmember Barry.

Um something was shared during the presentation, and I want to revisit it.

Uh and you don't have to get up, I'm just gonna make a comment about it.

That I don't think this council has decided that the firehouse plus housing will be it.

Um so I am concerned about plans being made for that.

I know it was an idea.

I don't think it's a it doesn't seem to me to be a solid idea.

Who would want to live where you've got sirens needing to go off?

So I'm just gonna I wouldn't like to park that, but I wanted I want the manager's office to take note that that is a concern for me.

Um because that plays into future funding, right?

And um it was discouraging for folks to hear that beyond this three and a half million dollars and the four million dollars, there are plans for them already.

And if we could be clearer about what the town is willing to do, and you need to hear that from other departments, I get that.

Um I would like for us to be us to be fully aware of that as well.

Um that's future funding projects.

I think it's a little murky for us, and it becomes murky for the public and our partners.

Second thing is I want to say thank you.

Thank you for holding up, and this is to the staff.

Thank you for sticking, making decisions based on the priorities that we set.

The priorities that we agree to, which makes it hard for those projects that are really good.

Um it would be helpful for us to see so that we can also underscore that.

But I know that you all took it to heart and took it seriously, not just to heart, but you took it as your charge to score that way.

And I say thank you because we don't have enough money to go around.

Um there's a gap.

I think it would be helpful for us to know if Taft is willing to share just how big that gap is so that we understand why moving a million dollars or less could be damaging to your application, your LITEC application.

But that's where I am right now.

Um I really support the fact that our staff has taken the charge that we gave them and went by those standards.

Thank you.

Uh Councilmember McCullough, followed by Councilmember Nollart.

Oh, I had my I would I would echo what Council Member Barry said.

I think that I want to make sure that everybody understands that we however this decision happens tonight.

We are not backing down on our priorities for homeownership.

We're not backing down on our values to put as many heads under roofs as we can.

That's central to what this town is about.

And we do punch above our weight.

But we unfortunately do not have the money to do everything.

We live in a zero-sum game place, and the federal government is making it more and more difficult to do our work all the time.

And our staff has to do a lot.

And I appreciate the fact that they do that.

That's not an easy task.

And I just wanted to say that and to say that I hope that as we go forward and make with the decision that we end up, however, we end up making this decision tonight that we keep looking for ways that we might be able to move things up to phase money to phase grants so that we can get things and use money effectively within timeframes and see what we can do that gets more done by timing the money if we can.

Council Miller, Councilmember Nollert, followed by Councilmember Miller Fushi.

And I think it underscores the urgency of the choices that we're going to make in our LUMO.

And I'm really sensitive to the questions about creating home ownership opportunity that we need to think about how the LUMO can accomplish that.

We also need to think about how making it possible to build more things will generate more revenue that we can then put into subsidy as well.

So I think there's a really urgent relationship between more housing in general and creating resources that we can spend on subsidized housing for low-income people.

So I I but it's when I think about the urgency of the need uh around homelessness and around people who are commuting really far distances to get to and from work in Chapel Hill.

Um it's really hard for me to make a choice that would jeopardize 190 units and going off the information that we have, it feels really important to follow the staff recommendation on that.

Councilmember Miller Fushi.

Thank you so much.

Um I want to say just how um difficult it is to sit here in this moment knowing that we are in a state where we don't have a bill, I mean uh a budget passed.

Just how absolutely frustrating it is because on the local level, again, we are on the front lines of our values.

And what I've heard in this chamber tonight are our values and just how difficult it is to really lean into them and um bring them to fruition when we don't have the kind of leadership at the state level to not only allocate and invest in affordable housing in a way that we need but to really um support our communities.

And that's what we're faced with tonight.

We have an amazing staff who do amazing work.

We have amazing affordable housing partners who are we can't um execute our values without them.

But here we are with limited finite resources and unable to really um execute in a way that we want to.

And that makes me angry.

The TAF Mills um project is so exciting, and I am very happy to continue to support that.

I've been in conversations with them since I sat on council.

And so for them to be able to get the units that they need for community members who are on the margins and very vulnerable when it comes to housing.

I'm so excited to support that as well.

So staff didn't do anything wrong.

They did everything right.

They leaned into the values that we as a community state.

The issue is funding and our ability to meet all of the needs.

Having said that, I'm really, really concerned about what it means for the Carver Street project.

And I hope that it will not be a killer of that project.

And I'm hoping that we can find a way to very soon get them the funding that they need.

As Councilmember McCullough was stating, you know, the phasing of things, like where we are, if a project's going to be coming before us in six months potentially, versus something that is further down the road, and we can reallocate and phase in.

Y'all know what to do.

Y'all are really good at what you do.

And so that's my interest, and what I hope you can hear so that this Carver Street project is not going to be scrapped.

And I also want to continue to elevate the fact that we have already invested into this project, and we don't want to lose that investment.

So thank you so thank you so much for uh community members who came out, um, eloquently spoke, and thank you, staff, for the work that you all continue to do.

Um I will just say briefly.

Um thank you, staff for um your continued recommendations.

I I don't feel prepared to go against staff recommendation based on um the time and the scoring and the and the reasons, and I really hope uh that um our N and I and um habitat partners are not um are not giving up.

I hope we see you back here.

Um I would love to have the opportunity um to consider this project when it's a little further along and when it'll score better.

So I really do hope that we um that we're able to um to celebrate with you um very soon.

Um and I think we all do recognize the challenge that faces us and the incredible amount of work we do as a community to try and do the best thing among not great options.

So um thank you to our partners.

Thank you for coming to advocate for this important project, and um and please don't give up.

Um so with that um I need someone to move R4.

So moved.

Uh moved by Councilmember Ryan, seconded by councilmember searing.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, please say nay.

Motion is unanimous.

Thank you.

Um last but not least, item number 13 is to open a legislative hearing for a conditional zoning application at 5640 Old Chapel Hill Road.

Um for audience members who may have missed my earlier announcement.

At the applicant's request, we will be postponing this item until September 24th.

Um council members to comply with town ordinance and our standard process.

We will need to open the legislative hearing and then continue it to September 24th.

So I'm sorry, this is not last, but certainly not least.

This is almost last and not least.

Um may I have a motion to open the public hearing and then another motion to continue the hearing to September 24th, 2025.

So move to open.

Move by Councilmember Barry, seconded by councilor member Miller Fushi to open the public hearing.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, please say nay.

Motion is unanimous.

I need a motion to continue.

So moved.

Second.

Move by Councilmember Barry, seconded by Councilmember Miller Fushi to continue the hearing to September 24th, 2025.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, please say nay.

Motion is unanimous now.

Item 14 is to open the legislative hearing for a conditional zoning application at 701 Martin Luther King Jr.

Boulevard.

Catherine Shore, our senior planner is here to walk us through.

Welcome.

Thank you.

So my name is Catherine Shore.

I am the case planner for this project.

I'll welcome the applicant team to make a presentation.

And I will come up and do a presentation and share staff's recommendation, and then we'll both be available for questions.

Good evening.

Brian Boyles with Landmark Properties.

So Landmark Properties is one of the largest developers and multifamily developers in the Southeast.

We have several different product types that we that we do.

We do multifamily.

We have a mid-rise building as close as Charlotte.

We have build to rent townhome and uh single family rental communities across the Southeast and Texas.

And then we have student housing properties across the country.

Two properties that we still own and manage in in Raleigh.

We are vertically integrated.

We have our own construction and management companies, so we build and manage everything in-house.

And we are long-term owners of our projects.

So managing the design and operations in the early stages, like right now, is it is extremely important to us because we have to live with our decisions long term.

Oh this one, all right.

Our site is located at 701 MLK Jr.

Boulevard.

It's at the intersection of MLK Junior Boulevard and East Longview Street.

It's two properties.

It's an assemblage of two properties.

It's slightly under two acres.

And as you'll see, there's some challenging topography and the shape of the site, which we are using to our advantage, which we'll get to here in a minute.

This is our proposed site plan at the corner of East Longview Street and Martin Luther King Jr.

Boulevard will be a public plaza community gathering area.

This will greatly complement the future bus rapid transit stop, which is uh planned for uh right across East Longview Street as well as another stop right across Martin Luther King Jr.

Boulevard.

Uh we will have ground level retail with outdoor seating, and we've worked with staff to uh to propose a 12-foot wide multi-use path along the along the front, along MLK Junior Boulevard.

Uh so all these elements will really activate that street frontage there.

Uh there will be a fire access lane off of Martin Luther King Jr.

Boulevard.

Uh that is not accessible by the public.

Um, and we will be installing some landscaping as well as a dog park uh to help amenitize that area a little bit for the residents.

Uh and then uh the entrance to the parking garage will be along East Longview Street here.

Just a conceptual rendering of our entrance, that corner at East Longview Street and Martin Luther King Jr.

Boulevard.

Again, just conceptual, so um you know the colors aren't set in stone or anything like that, but um you'll see the covered covered pat the plaza which has a some covered seating, landscaping, etc.

The activated storefront with retail, outdoor seating, and the multi-use pass.

I just wanted to show just a conceptual rendering what you know what we're intending for that to look like.

A proposed site section of our building.

We will have five to six levels of residential units above two levels of uh structured parking.

Uh as you can see, the site slopes up to the back towards the two existing townhomes located right behind us.

Uh those townhomes actually sit about 30 feet higher than us, so they will be looking at a five to six-story building.

Um and then there is also some significant uh existing tree canopy in between uh in between those properties as well that to provide some natural shading there.

I can't do that right.

Um we came in November and presented our conceptual plan, and the main takeaways that we that we received were one to implement a public plaza area.

So again, you know, we've got that public area on the corner that you will really help uh promote the use of that future bus rapid transit stop that will be going across the street.

Um parking, we've reduced our parking down to right below code minimum, but still not too low where we need a variance.

Um and also affordable housing.

We've worked uh closely with staff and we'll be proposing 10% of our units as affordables.

Those will be on site.

Uh half of those will be at 60% AMI, half of those at 80% AMI, and they will be throughout the whole project.

So indistinguishable from other units within the building.

Uh another big item of the feedback was to work with Brian Peterson uh on our proposed massing.

Uh we've met with Brian three or four times and feel like we have uh positive feedback from him on that on the architectural elements that we've used to try and really break up the massing, uh building setbacks and balconies, change in architectural features, you know, ground level store, ground level storefront.

Uh, and the actually the shape of our site really helps us out to try really break up the building in those long you know building runs.

Um our site is located within sub-area C of the South MLK focus area in the 2020 future land use map.

Uh so these properties are already earmarked for um for multifamily high high density development in the long term.

Oops.

Uh a few notes on community consistency.

First, regarding transit.

Um this site is already served by four existing Chapel Hill transit routes.

Uh and again, the future bus rapid transit stop, the Longview stop will be located right at the corner, uh, you know, right next to our building.

Uh we will also be providing a dedicated financial contribution toward area and transit improvements as well.

Being green, uh we have worked with staff and we will be proposing NGBS gold certification, which is uh well above code.

Um we will also have EV chargers and future or infrastructure in place for future EV charging demand as it as it increases.

We will have a dedicated bike storage area within our uh within our parking structure.

Uh that will also include e-bike chargers, um so really promoting the use of bicycles.

And you know, just this project's location and proximity to both uh downtown retail, uh employment centers, and the university will really uh help promote the use of public transit and uh discourage the use of vehicles.

Meeting housing needs, we'll have a wide variety of units between studios and four bedrooms to really uh mark it to a wide variety of renter types.

Uh and again, we've uh we'll be offering 10% of our units as affordable there.

Public realm, um implementation of that of that public plaza area and that retail will will really help promote this area for the public use as it as it sits next to that public transit stop that's forthcoming at Longview.

Housing needs in Chapel Hill.

Uh Chapel Hill continues to grow, so the demand for housing continues to grow.

Uh and then the 2021 housing report specifically noted uh multifamily housing need to help provide um units to a wide variety of unit of renter types.

Environmental impact.

The town has determined there is no there are no jurisdictional streams on site.

Um we have invited our uh environmental consultant here.

He's here to answer any questions if you guys need to ask any further questions about that.

But we are confident that uh we will be improving the existing uh on-site conditions through underground attention and piping of the stormwater.

So, really in summary, you know, the the properties are already designated long-term for multifamily development.

It's located location right on the bus transit, the future bus rapid transit line, you know, will really help promote the use of public transit.

So we really feel like this is an ideal location for a you know multifamily mixed use development.

Um we feel like we've done we are offering, you know, we've tried to incorporate as much of staff and council and planning commission's feedback and offered as much as we could while still trying to maintain you know the the density we need to make a project feasible here.

So uh myself and our team are here to answer any questions that you might have.

Thank you.

Hello again.

Good evening, Mayor and Council.

My name is Catherine Shore.

I'm here to present staff's recommendation for the conditional zoning application at 701 Martin Luther King Jr.

Boulevard.

The site is located in the South MLK focus area at the intersection of East Longview Street and Martin Luther King Jr.

Boulevard.

It's surrounded by medium density residential and office uses, and it's just south of Bowling Creek Greenway.

We recommend this project because we believe it's in alignment with the complete community goals and the comprehensive plan.

We believe that the requested modifications to regulations serve the public purpose, and we recommend that council consider approving the project subject to the conditions of ordinance A.

So as the applicant mentioned, they are requesting uh to rezone to the from the neighborhood commercial and residential three zoning districts to the mixed-use village, CCD.

They want they are requesting permission to build up to 200 units in a nine-story structure, and 10% of those units are proposed as affordable housing.

The developers committed to constructing an outdoor plaza and a multi-use path to complement the planned N SBRT station on Martin Luther King Junior Boulevard.

For some procedural context, the requested zoning district accommodates the proposed land use and scale of development.

Conditional zoning also allows the applicant to have site-specific standards and to request modifications to LUMO standards.

We believe that this project aligns with the goals of the complete community framework.

The applicant's proposing a transit-oriented mixed-use development in an infill location, which could reduce overall vehicle trips and support multimodal travel options.

They also commit to reduced parking spaces to align with that type of development.

The proposed retail space and plaza area could serve surrounding residents and transit riders.

The applicant is committed to facade transparencies, which could create a more inviting environment for pedestrians.

We also reviewed this project with the natural features viewer and found that the site has a low score based on our model.

In addition, a recent stream determination classified the streams on site as ephemeral, which would reduce the score in the model even further.

The planning commission reviewed this application at their August 19th meeting and found it to be consistent with the comprehensive plan and recommended approval with the condition that uh the applicant incorporate urban design elements as applicable.

Our recommended procedure for you this evening is to open the public hearing, receive public comment, provide feedback to the applicant, and continue the hearing to October eighth.

And I'm here and the applicant team is here to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you.

Council questions.

Uh Councilmember Miller Fushi, followed by Councilmember McCullough.

Thank you, Mayor.

Um I have a couple of questions.

One question is how many how much retail are we looking at?

Retail space?

Right now we're looking about 1200 square feet of ground level retail.

So that could accommodate how many potential lake.

So probably targeting like a smaller coffee shop, like small sort of like light restaurant.

Okay.

That's what we would be targeting.

Awesome.

Thank you.

My next question is in regards to your affordable housing.

Um is there a reason why you couldn't get to the 15% versus the 10?

It's we're we're only at 175 to 200 units.

We just don't have the economies of scale to be able to really boost our offer that much higher.

We we're that was as as best we could get to.

Um what would you be able to do at the lower AMI?

Like we keep saying 80 percent.

That's really not affordable for folks.

We know that.

Um so if making them all at the 60 five percent AMI, um, would you all be um willing to consider that?

And also are you all accepting Section 8 vouchers?

Well we do accept vouchers.

Okay.

And we do that in other locations as well.

So we have experience with that.

Okay.

I I don't think I have the answer for your first question yet until I go back and review it.

Please, when you come back, I would really like to know where you are with that at the 10%, 65% AMI, please.

Thank you.

Councilmember McCullough, followed by Councilmember Barry.

Yes.

I'm glad you have your environmental person here because I had two hydrological questions.

And one of them you had answered when we spoke.

And I'll verify that one and then ask the other one.

And will remain a hydrological feature whether there's a building in the way or not.

So I assume that you are will be running that ephemeral hydrological function under the building.

And you've taken into account that.

Storm flows are going to be conveyed to the best of my knowledge through a pipe system.

And speaking of the I'm Ward Morati was Spangler, environmental director of natural resources, by the way.

With regard to speaking to the hydrologic permanence of the feature, it the there's actually two features on the site, and they're both ephemeral, which as most of you know, I'm sure means that they are flow only in direct response to precipitation events.

They are not connected to the water table at any time during the year and don't flow except in response to precipitation events.

And to that end, again, as far as I understand it, based on the design that I've seen, the um the storm flows are going to be conf conveyed through a piping system and the storm uh the precipitation received on site will be treated in a stormwater treatment uh stormwater control measures in the substrate, but the flows coming in from off site are going to be can conveyed through a pipe system.

And just to comment after having visited the site now, uh my the initial evaluation was done by my staff, but I've now visited the site myself.

And looking at the um the channels and the erosion, that's very obvious there that is the result direct result of response to precipitation events.

My opinion, my professional opinion is the downstream water quality in Bowling Creek, which is now and has been for many years impaired, primarily for Benthit Bank grown vertebrates, the water quality or the the contributions to the detriment of water quality are going to be reduced as a result of eliminating those channels and eliminating that slumping and sediment loading and stormwater or sediment conveyance, total suspended solid conveyance in response to stormwater events into Bowling Creek will be at least not eliminated entirely because there's plenty of channel between this site and where it confluences with Bowling Creek, but based on the contributions from this site, they're going to be eliminated in there by the total load going into Bowling Creek from this catchment is going to be reduced, which is a net water quality improvement.

Yeah, that's a good thing.

The other thing that I was wondering about was that the forested area to the northwest.

There's plenty of uh forested slope, so that should hold those slopes real well, but there's not as much forested slope behind those two, there's not as much distance, there's not as much forest behind those two duplexes that the building will be very close to.

And I wanted to um I guess I just wanted assurance that the that the integrity of that slope is going to be okay.

We don't want that slumping.

Uh yeah, I I've not studied the grading plan in detail.

I don't know that we've even gotten to a grading plan yet, have we?

Yeah.

Sorry?

I can talk about that.

Please do.

So there I'm Wendy Ramsden, I'm a landscape architect with Thomson Hutton.

I've been working on this project for the last year.

Um I'm not a PE, but I have been working with the PEs in our office to look at the slopes and what we're doing to stabilize and and set this up.

We are setting the building into the hill, so the bottom couple floors of the building, the parking structure portion of it, will be basically a retaining wall.

Outside, there will be another retaining wall between the building and the property line.

And in that space currently, the slope is three to one.

It is quite steep.

Um but when you get beyond the property line onto the property where the duplexes are, that slope is about 12 percent.

So it's it's very steep getting up to the property line, but then it levels off a little bit.

Um and we are not removing any trees on the other properties.

We will also be having a structural engineer do the design of the retaining walls and of that area.

We don't want it slumping either.

Councilmember Barry, followed by council member Ryan.

I forgot I was on deck.

Okay.

So thank you for listening to my colleague about uncoupling the parking.

But if you remember that what I'm not a fan of that.

So I'd like to know how you will handle those who are obtaining affordable housing.

How will if they need parking, how will you address that?

That's a good question, and I don't I don't think we've considered that yet.

So I don't know that we've actually sorry, Eric Leith landmark properties as well.

And I don't know that we've actually fully figured that out for this site, but in other municipalities where we have affordable housing, we generally look at the total cost for that individual as we factor into what we deem as affordable.

So that would include utility load and parking, and we're happy to commit to that here as well.

Okay.

So you will consider the parking in that as well.

Yes, this is a part of the total cost of care housing.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Oh, wait, I'm sorry.

Oops.

That was good.

Second thing is I think so.

I think it was inferred, but I just want to make sure implied, I inferred it.

That you are committed to not, and Michael Parker would be so proud of me.

You're committed to not providing alternative private transit for your for your folks.

Correct.

That you're okay.

Excellent.

That is it.

Thank you.

Councilmember Ryan, followed by Councilmember Sharp.

Okay.

So I is it true that you're gonna have 250 parking spaces.

I believe it's about 230 right now.

Okay, so it's come down a little bit.

Um, 265 before we're down to 230, if I recall.

Yeah, if we can, that still feels high to me for a it's more than one per unit, right?

And we're we're within walking distance of campus, we're gonna be on our bus rapid transit line.

We're so I would really love to see that that coming down.

Um I think uncoupling parking in this place actually makes sense, just given there's going to be people who we're will have legitimate car-free options in the area.

Uh my second question is so council has expressed an interest in housing for a wide range of people.

So your four bedroom units are essentially sort of student um student suite housing.

So given the location where we are, uh we expect that a number of our rnors will be students per fair housing laws, we can't discriminate on who we lease to.

So if you can qualify and you want to.

I understand it's it this is more of a design question.

Um would those four bedrooms be four bedrooms with four bathrooms?

Yes.

Okay.

So that's often that attracts kind of a student suite housing population.

So and I know you've also talked about having studios through three bedrooms, which will appeal to a wider variety of folks.

Do you have any idea what that percentage breakdown would be for the four bedrooms?

We do not have that breakdown now.

We have not designed that far ahead yet.

Okay, because that's really for me, that's not simply a design issue, that's really a use issue, and who's going to be able to live here.

And I am completely fine having students living here.

I think it's a great place for them, but I also want to make sure that folks who work downtown can be within that that walkable area or seniors who don't want to drive anymore.

There's just a lot of people that would really benefit from living in a place like this.

So I'm going to be looking when you come back to us to see what that percentage is going to be.

And and hopefully that you would be able to commit to that in the final resolution, that it would be say a maximum of X.

I'll just advise the staff that we don't typically ask applicants to commit to certain bedroom counts.

Sorry, I'm having a little bit of a brain rush to be too fast.

Um we don't ask applicants to um commit to certain bedroom uh arrangements per percentage.

It's something that we in zoning are not able to regulate, and so then we don't put it in the ordinance.

Okay, and I I guess I would defer to, I know there are things that on a conditional zoning, things that we can negotiate into ordinance, and I would defer to the town attorney whether this would be one of those things or not.

Um I think it's just really important as part of understanding what exactly this property is and who it's going to serve.

I think that's a really that's gonna be a really key factor.

You know, is it gonna be another lark?

Is it going to be a place where there's gonna be a wide range of folks that are going to be attracted to the property?

That latter would be my interest.

So um, and just uh if we and if it is possible then to say for you to commit to what it's going to be, then I know that the project that I approve is the project that gets delivered.

So I can just add Catherine's correct.

We can't regulate that, and even if he then the applicant did commit to it, I think your thought of commitment would be something that would go in writing and be in the ordinance, and it wouldn't be allowed to do that.

Even if they say that verbally, we couldn't memorialize it in the ordinance because the town can't regulate that.

So we can provide you with they could, of course, I'm looking at Ann.

They could provide you with the information so that you know what they intend to do at the next hearing, but we could not allow that to be part of the vote and in the motion to go into the actual ordinance itself.

Okay.

And so if it when they come back and they actually build, say they said 25% is going to be at four bedrooms and they come back at 100, staff would just say, okay, right.

I mean, you would would you have no, I'm just I I need to know how this works.

So would would staff would staff be able, would they say that was not the intent we heard from council or that doesn't matter?

That's not a thing we regulate, so you have the right to do that.

I think our attorney looking at the microphone eyes.

I'm not sure I understood the question entirely, but um could we the question is can planning enforce um an agreement with the applicant about the the percentage of certain types, certain bedrooms?

If if a municipality is prohibited by state law regulating and um including it as a condition, some subject area, and then we include it as a condition, we can't enforce it.

It's not a force.

So I yeah, so I think that you know, as you're considering the project, you might want to consider other ways of you know sort of assessing your desire for the project to be there.

But I can also talk to you more extensively offline if that's helpful.

Sure.

Thanks.

Uh that was all my questions.

Thanks.

Councilmember Sharp.

Um can you help me understand why and what makes this particular massing shape the appropriate choice for this project and this site?

In essence, a donut.

I mean I a donut.

I think our design team has done a great job working with the town to achieve the density that we need to be able to offer you know affordable housing and you know all and incorporate all the feedback that we've gotten while still being able to still being able to develop a feasible project.

And the shape of our site is is what it is.

What percentage of your site is been given to that hole in the middle of the building?

So the courtyard in the building is not a function of creating the courtyard.

It's a function of maximizing the amount of double-loaded corridor to maximize the number of physical apartments we can fit.

I mean, it's just like a nature of the U.S.

building code that the most efficient way to build multi-family housing is via double-loaded corridors so that you have light access into every bedroom and living space and then still meet egress requirements for safety and ADA compliance.

And so it kind of has this unfortunate effect where the most efficient way to do that, particularly on a site that's constrained like this, is by making that donut to maximize the amount of double-loaded corridor.

Um where are my other questions go?

Um when you're talking about the well, going back to your last presentation, the leasing office used to take up part of that corner space, correct?

That public plaza space.

And is the leasing office still down there and then just 1200 square feet of it has become retail?

We'll we'll have amenities, management, and then lease or uh retail.

Okay.

And in that 12 feet.

Um are you all planning to build in the infrastructure that would be needed for a cafe or small restaurant like a grease trap and hood venting?

Yep.

Okay.

Okay.

Um I think there had been a council question about comparing this proposed building to uh somewhere else in town or something else that we can understand conceptually.

Yes, would you like me to restate the question?

Sure.

Sure.

I mean, probably.

Yeah.

So good idea.

My understanding of the question that was received before the council meeting was can this site be compared to a uh apartment building that we might see in the Blue Hill district of town, so we can understand the scale and the height.

Um so we did some research.

Uh and I think a good way to think about how this building compares is most of the buildings in Blue Hill are podium wrapped um uh apartment buildings where they're on larger sites than this one.

Um this site is about two acres.

Um so they're doing stacked parking and then um units on top.

Um they're able to go a little bit taller, um, and they have to go a little bit taller because of the constrained site.

Um so it is a little bit taller, or maybe a floor taller than um some of the buildings in Blue Hill.

The Atlas Blue Hill at the corner of uh Ephesus Church Road and Um and Fordham will be about seven stories uh when it's f fully constructed.

But when you're thinking about scale of like mixed use on excuse me, retail on the bottom and residential up top, I was thinking of the Berkshire as a good example.

Um obviously that's a way more lively district than what we're gonna be proposed here.

Um but in terms of the scale of a single story building next to a taller building.

I thought that might be a helpful visual.

Thank you.

Um I don't think we have any members of the public wishing to speak, but could be wrong.

Um pretty quiet out there.

Uh Council, back to you.

Um with just a reminder that this will come back on October 8th.

Councilmember Barry, followed by Councilmember Miller Fushi.

Okay.

You know, I have to jump in here and say, I love the third place.

Uh the retail.

Thank you.

Um and then the donut.

So we had that conversation when we got to meet together.

And it's I just want to dig into that a little bit more with councilmember sharp.

So that double corridor, the people who are living on either side have ample window space.

You know, one otherwise they'd just be you couldn't have an apartment without that, without the windows, without the light, the natural lighting.

So I appreciate that explanation that you all had given us.

And I didn't hear quite as much.

I hope that that makes sense to my colleague.

Um I once rented an apartment just down the way here on MLK, and it was a studio, but build as a faux one bedroom, and it I had a partition.

Anyway, um I had two of those adjoining for me and my kids.

And I will say that as much light as an apartment can get is wonderful.

So thank you for being creative, and we end up with it with a courtyard.

Councilmember Miller Fushi.

Thank you.

Um this is a very difficult site to build on.

And I, you know, I've seen the other iterations of attempts to build on this site.

And so um, one, I'm glad that you all did the environmental studies that you did.

Um I thought you gave an excellent um response.

I can't remember the gentleman's name in response to my colleagues' inquiries.

Um I drive by this, like this lives in the Northside community.

I drive by this site, and I've been wanting something there for a long time.

Um, and so I'm excited that this is come back before us and that it does have the retail there.

Um I see the number of bicyclists, uh people walking, people coming to the bus stop on that corner.

It's a lively corner, and the retail, the potential of a coffee shop or something there, um, I think it will get the kind of traffic that will that it will need in addition to the residents that live there, but also people within that space to come and support the the kind of retail that goes there.

Um I like the density of this.

Um I feel like it's pushing down what we want in terms of our downtown uh to go further down MLK, and so I'm welcoming the the building of this as well.

Um I would love for you to all to really consider what it means to be inclusive of families um student, but everybody to be able to have uh um a unit um that meets their needs because of what we're trying to do with the MLK in extending our downtown into that area.

Um I echo the reduction in parking if possible.

Um I'd rather house people than cars.

Um and I'm looking forward to see where we land with the affordable housing, if you could come back with that.

Thank you.

Uh Councilmember Ryan followed by Councilmember Miller uh Barry, sorry for one more.

Okay.

Um yeah, so thank you for the presentation.

Um I agree with my colleague.

The density density is you're not on my sorry.

The density and the housing are both appropriate here.

They help meet our complete community goals.

Um also I'm glad that you brought up the growth of downtown.

That because we have such a constrained linear downtown, we really do want to be pushing to grow it up Martin Luther King.

So I so that will be helpful as always.

Um I also agree that we do want to have families or options for other folks here.

Even if we can't enforce it, I would love if you could come back and tell us what your thinking is on that when you come back next time.

So um so that I you know we can have an idea of what exactly it is that we're voting for.

Um I was disappointed not to see a step back against the neighborhood.

Um I know that you're you're not gonna be eight stories next to them because you're building in a hole, but you're still gonna be two or three stories, and it's it's a very close separation.

So that's really gonna loom over the neighbors.

Uh when we did the hotel over at the corner of Rosemary and Columbia Street, we went back and forth a lot, but they finally pulled back next to the Northside neighborhood to be better neighbors there.

So um I'd also like you to consider doing that.

Um I agree that we would love to see you do better on affordable housing or come back and say what your number at 60 percent would be for that.

Um you said that you want a variance for signs above the parapet.

This is gonna be a really tall building.

So I would much prefer you to stick to the sign ordinance and you can have it at the you can have a crown sign, which is allowed in ordinance, but to have it sticking up over the top.

Um and I don't know if you're planning on it being lighted or not, but I think that's uh that's a little vagus for us.

So if we could we could have if you could stick to a crown sign, that would be great.

And uh my last comment is this is the third or fourth time in the last six months when we've had a really substantial development come to us asking for really big, and this isn't your issue, this is a town issue, asking for really big uh very modifications to our trees and our impervious surface regulations.

So we need to recognize that while housing is an important community interest, environmental concerns are an important community interest as well, and especially stormwater is a really important community interest.

So again, I'd just like to make the call to figure out if we're when we we want to build densely, it will mean that we can't put as many trees.

It will mean that our impervious is going up, right?

And we know that, and so now we need to figure out how we are going to not have that happen bit by bit by bit through the whole town that we're gonna take some stance and say, okay, we're gonna figure out ways to offset this negative that we're doing here with a positive somewhere else.

So um whether we need to consider stronger stormwater requirements if you're really exceeding the impervious limits.

Um I we've talked about getting a more workable payment in lieu for tree canopy.

So I still again we're we keep we keep seeing these over and over and over again.

So I think we need to really sit down and plan out what is what a good strategy is for us.

Thank you.

Councilmember Barry.

Thank you.

There was something that I noticed when we met, and I forgot to put it in my notes, and I'm looking at this rendering, your conceptual rendering on page 13.

That strip of grass, this question this comment really is for the staff.

I think it's something that we require, the strip of grass next to the sidewalk.

And I'd love for us.

I'd love to know what it would take for us not to have to require that.

Why do we require that?

Uh would this be uh a strip between the multi-use path and the street?

Correct.

Could we come up with something else there, like bricks or you know?

Yeah.

Um we can check with the operating.

Yeah, uh I'm not as aware of what design conversations have happened around that frontage, but we can look into that, um, talk with our transportation staff and uh and see what opportunities there are there.

I don't know that that's um driven by any particular requirement, just trying to settle on a design that meets the most interests.

And we my own don't know if there's utility easements or something going on there.

So there might be a reason why that needs to be um can't be impervious.

So we'd have to look at the curiosity, but I wanted to I appreciate the mayor's indulgence.

Um I wanted to bring it up here and not wait until October.

Thank you.

Councilmember Sharp.

Um Councilmember Bray, do you mind clarifying for me what your opposition is to the strip of grass?

Yeah, if you drive around town, those are often unsightly because they're very ill-maintained, and I'd like for us to consider as a town moving away from that unless it serves a particular purpose.

I'd like to make it easier for our projects moving forward to have something else that signals the separation between the road and the sidewalk that's easy to maintain and is also aesthetically pleasing.

Okay.

So then may I follow up with a quick question is then I would like to know what other than grass we could have that would provide some imp some pervious surface and greenery.

Question for whoever wants to think about that one.

I I'm not sure we're going to figure it out tonight.

Um I am hearing an interest in figuring out some way to have greenery and something that doesn't just fall into disrepair.

Um council member Nollert.

Just wanted to say that I'm support the project and excited to see you come back.

Um want to remind colleagues of a couple things.

One is the UNC has stated a goal of adding 500 students per year, and we know that they're already don't have enough beds.

We we uh we don't have to be enthusiastic supporters of that goal, but I I do just want to, particularly someone who has been a student renting in town recently, you want to say like we cannot and should not segregate student housing.

And I recognize that that students are not always good neighbors, but that should be a matter of um community building as a resolution, more so than I think um uh a matter of regulating the housing types that we provide.

Um and I also want to encourage colleagues to be mindful of the debt service coverage ratio, which is I such a hard thing to remind people about because it's so arcane, but um the cost that we impose on the project are going to then determine whether or not these projects are eligible for the loans required to construct them.

I I have deep philosophical disagreements with the results of capitalism and and commodified home building, and I wish our state would tax corporations more and that our nation would in general tax wealth more effectively.

But I think when we when we try to accomplish that here on the Dais, what we have seen happen over and over again in communities across America is that housing gets slowed down, scarcity drives prices up faster, uh people get pushed further and further away from where they want to live.

Um and and those things I think really outweigh frequently the benefits that we get by trying to extract all these different types of concessions that that are I think really well intended, but um I just really urge real sensitivity and caution to to what's really within our power and and when we're trying to accomplish things that that we just really can't meaningfully accomplish.

So I appreciate your indulgence on on sharing that um reflection.

Councilmember McCullough?

Did I make that up?

Yeah, no, I I didn't have a lot to add.

I just wanted to echo a few things.

Um one would be a council what council Councilmember Nollard just said, um, and another one is the if there's any way we can decrease parking.

Um that would that would be an economic benefit, I would think to y'all as well, because you can use it more productively, that square footage more productively.

Um and um and support the um mixing in of different housing types, especially as we look at demographic uh needs and and the needs for um not just students but new professors and international students and all those other kinds of people who who um married students who need more than just uh a a party place near campus.

But again, I'm also incredibly happy about having density on this site so close to campus, right on a um right on uh uh the future BRT line and we we need more TOD, we need transit-oriented development, and this is a very good example of it, and I'm glad that you're back in front of us for it.

Um thank you for being so responsive to um the feedback you've gotten.

Um I too am excited to have this so close to downtown.

Um I would agree any reductions in parking that you can pull off would be great given the location and all the multimodal transit options there.

Um yeah, I think um it wouldn't be a town council meeting if we didn't go from a green strip of grass to capitalism, so that's just how we roll.

Um love them both.

Um I uh I do agree I and I am well aware that we cannot um enforce or regulate more than the shell of this building.

So please take my comments as just imploring that we we ensure there's a good mix.

And I agree, it's it's really not about I I would love students to live there.

I just know that other people won't if there's not options beyond the four bedrooms with the four baths, that those are um and so I um without any way to enforce it.

I would um respectfully ask that if you can please make sure that um students do great living in three bedrooms and two bedrooms and studios as well, and I think the more we can lean into those, um I know that this is gonna be a very sought-after project.

I know you won't have any trouble renting it out.

So um and I really can't tell you what to do on that.

So um uh I appreciate you all uh waiting for our final item with you.

Um I hope that um you'll come back with the information that folks have requested about the um about the affordable housing, the 65% is I heard, um, as well as some parking and um we will uh assume that we'll see you on October 8th.

So um council?

I move that we continue the hearing to October 8th.

Um move by council member Barry, seconded by council member Miller Fushi.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, please say nay.

Motion is unanimous.

Um thank you all.

Um thank you, staff.

Um great job, council.

And we meet again next week for a work session.

Did I make that up?

And a party before, that's right.

It's current currently scheduled, Mayor, and I just wondered whether you would um entertain going into closed session for just to just a very short time.

Okay.

So do we have I missed.

Do we have language?

Um we have not adjourned at all.

Oh, you haven't adjourned.

I'm sorry.

And even if we did, we would leave the trigger date.

They would like to adjourn, but we are still here.

Do you have a basis, Mr.

Manager?

I I do.

It's said to discuss personnel matters about two specific personnel.

Um one in the manager's office and one in the attorney's office.

Okay.

We have a we have language for a motion?

Second.

Move for personnel.

Uh move by council member sharp, seconded by Councilmember Barry.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, please say nay.

Motion is unanimous.

We will meet across the hall.

And then mayor on our way there.

Could we just pose right here real quickly for a quick photo?