Good evening, everyone.

Welcome to the September 24th meeting of the Chapel Hill Town Council.

We are very pleased to have you join us.

Before we get underway, I want to share with everyone that in response to resident request, we have interpreters available tonight through item six for Spanish speaking residents who may wish to speak during the public comment period and or during the public hearing for 860 Weaver Dairy Road.

For the audience, people wishing to listen in Spanish will have simultaneous translation available from our interpreters via the headsets.

And for those wishing to speak, um, when you're at the podium, the interpreters will provide consecutive translation.

This evening we have three items up for discussion.

All our legislative hearings for conditional zoning applications.

In order, we will consider proposals for 86 or 860 Weaver Dairy Road, uh 115 Chapel Hill Point Road, and 5640 Old Chapel Hill Road.

Uh Council members immediately following tonight's business meeting uh we'll move into the first floor conference room for closed session.

We do not have proclamations this evening, uh, but I do have a couple of quick announcements that I've been asked to share.

Um first up, we'd like to take a moment to recognize employee appreciation month, uh, which officially begins next Wednesday and continues through October.

Our town is supported by an incredible team of 750 full and part-time employees along with an additional 150 dedicated workers who help deliver programs year-round.

Um together they provide exceptional service and ensure our community runs smoothly every single day.

Uh, we're truly grateful to each and every one of them for their professionalism, commitment, and care.

And we look forward to having employee representatives join us mid month for a show of thanks and recognition of the Cal Horton Award.

Uh second, and keeping with the theme of appreciation, at our October 8th meeting, we will be honoring members of staff and the community have who have gone the extra mile or two or three to help those impacted by tropical storm Chantal.

Um council members, the plan is to have people arrive in council chambers at 5 45 so that we have time to say thank you before the meeting starts.

Uh then we'll have a proclamation and Jeannie and Chair will provide you all with additional details in advance.

Um and last, a reminder from our sustainability team and the new New Hope Audubon Society.

Uh, as fall migration begins, please remember to turn off unnecessary lights or close your blinds at night.

Uh artificial light can disorient migrating birds, leading them off course and into danger.

So each year, millions of birds die from collisions with buildings and other structures, often because they're drawn to or confused by bright nighttime lighting.

Um by simply dimming our lights, we can help protect these vital travelers on their journey south for the winter.

Uh council members, does anyone have something to share?

Councilmember Barry.

Thank you.

I'd like to share that September is hunger action month.

As one who relied on the services of our pantries, I want everyone to take a moment and think about how you can help your neighbors by providing them food.

You can go to your local pantries.

We have several of them that serve this community.

Thank you.

Okay.

Uh next up, we invite members of the public to comment on items not on the printed agenda or to bring a petition forward.

Uh, for members of the public in attendance and wishing to speak, please sign up with the town clerk at the table on the left side of the council chambers towards the front of the room.

If you're here to speak on a specific item, there'll be a presentation on the item followed by council questions and then public comment.

If there are individuals in the audience who wish to bring a formal petition tonight, our practice is to receive petitions and refer them to the mayor and manager.

We don't, as a rule, take action on petitions at this time.

To keep things running smoothly, Mayor Pro Tem Ryan will call two names.

We ask that the first person come to the podium and that the second person be on deck down in the front so you can take your turn.

This evening we are expecting a larger than normal number of speakers for item number six pertaining to 860 Weaver Dairy Road.

So for that item, depending on the number of people who sign up to speak, uh we may need to limit people's time to two minutes so that more people can speak in the allotted time.

For members of our Spanish speaking community, when you're at the podium, the interpreters will provide consecutive translation.

Because that takes longer, we will offer extra time.

Finally, I want to remind our audience that we want everyone to be heard and to feel comfortable when they're at the podium.

So please reflect refrain from commenting or clapping.

Okay, I just have one speaker for this part of the program.

It's Christopher Esposito.

Welcome.

Thank you.

Do I hit the green button?

No.

All right.

Um thank you for having us.

We um uh have not uh submitted a formal petition um through the process.

Uh but I I do come with uh a request and if needed, can submit a um petition for this uh separately.

So I'll I'll simply read a statement and then um address some of the contents.

So uh dear Chapel Hill Town Council, um I'm speaking on behalf of myself and other residents of the Briarcliff and Ridgefield Park neighborhoods who were affected by the flooding during Tropical Storm Chantal on July 6th of this year.

Um we are requesting some assistance from the town staff in understanding the causes of the flooding in our neighborhood.

Uh our most immediate, though not only, but our most immediate question concerns the effect of the Pinehurst Road Bridge, which if you look at maps, which I do have printed on the back here and I'd like to share.

If you look at the flood maps provided by FEMA, um you can see that that bridge forms a fairly substantial dam where it crosses the Little Creek floodplain.

Um from the FEMA maps maps, uh, it appears that that bridge reduces the width of the floodplain at that location by somewhere around 75%.

We think it's pretty likely just by looking at that that this flow constriction increased the water levels behind the dam, which of course is inside of our houses.

So we have a set of questions below that we would really like the town engineering staff to assist us in answering.

They can do this using publicly available flood models that FEMA produces along with the maps.

And we're hoping that the staff would be able to conduct some brief analysis to address those questions, uh, and then we would be able to meet and discuss the results again.

Without any specific policy requests here, we really are just looking to engage with staff and understand what the causes of the flooding are so we can sort of understand our neighborhood a little bit better.

So I have on here, I won't read them now in the interest of time.

I have three what I think are fairly specific questions that we're hoping uh the professional engineers on the staff would be able to address with um with the tools that they have available to you.

Um I'll simply say we look forward to working with you uh on this issue and hope that the analysis uh will not only be useful in itself but also provide a consistent line of communication between us and our our town.

And I, you know, I I I'm not including other names here, but this is coming out of conversation and some backing by uh uh a fairly large group of people in those two neighborhoods in uh Redfield Park and Briarcliffe who were flooded on January the 6th.

Uh excuse me.

Thank you.

July the 6th.

Thank you.

Um if you'd like to leave materials for us, you can leave them with the clerk.

And I guess my question is, would you like us to receive this as a petition or would you like to collect names and submit one by email?

Um does one of those have more weight in in sort of engagement?

I think with just my name, if if you could receive it as a petition, that would be fine, and we can follow up if needed.

And I will leave the materials and just say that there's a map with the point on the back.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Uh council, do I have a motion to receive and refer?

So moved.

Second.

Motion by uh councilmember Ryan, seconded by council member searing.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, please say nay.

Motion is unanimous.

Uh I believe that brings us to our consent agenda.

Uh council members, prior to the meeting, we received amendments to item three pertaining to the grievance policy and item five, the September 10th meeting minutes.

So I'll need a motion to approve the consent agenda, including amendments to 01 and the September minutes.

So moved.

Move by Councilmember Barry, seconded by Councilmember Miller Fushi.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, please say nay.

Motion is unanimous.

Okay.

On to item number six, um, which is to open a legislative hearing for a conditional zoning application at 860 Weaver Dairy Road.

Um and I believe our presenter is Taz Lago.

Hey, Taz.

Madam Mayor, members of council, it's good to see you all.

Um, can we just a second as I wake this computer back up?

Um I might need the clerk's help with the the password.

I don't have it's an issue.

Um, members of council, as is typical, I'll uh invite the the applicant team um to provide their presentation um before you all this evening, and then I will I'll return for a brief presentation before answering questions and then handing things over to the public for for comment.

Taz, excuse me, if we're going to have a visual the screen is not working.

This morning should be helpful.

We can turn I just want to give you a heads up.

This happened last time and it woke up eventually, so why don't you start?

We'll look there, and then if it comes on here, we'll look here.

Sounds good.

Thank you.

Good evening, everybody.

I'm gonna keep my comments as short as I possibly can.

My name is Ernie Brown, as most of you already know.

Uh I live here in Chapel Hill, and we're my partner and I were working on uh project that you've seen before called Low Water on 860 Weaver dairy.

Uh this is something that you guys had seen already before where we had kind of bubble planned the area to kind of show like the different kind of sections to the uh development and how we were going to kind of work on it.

The foresale, we're calling it mixed use.

I'm really kind of calling it a non-residential kind of center section, and then the multifamily component.

Uh this next slide I think is probably going to be the most important to everybody or most uh interesting part of the evening.

Stormwater, our site conditions.

Here you can actually see the site conditions.

So you can see the way that we we've got to be able to work within not only the power lines but also the streams that are already there.

And then obviously you can tell that we've got a lot of topo and everything that we got to work around and in.

So worked with Brian on the front end of this where we were like laying this out, trying to figure out how to make it flow to where it felt like a nice community for everyone to kind of enjoy.

And this is where we kind of came up with and how we would kind of bifurcate the uh the three sections into their own uh areas.

All right, next slide.

This is one I would actually like to spend a little bit of time with, because I'm assuming there's going to be maybe one, maybe two questions about stormwater.

Um this is showing you guys each section and how the stormwater flows.

So what you see in the fuchsia or pink is the stormwater management and how we're kind of seeing it, and you can actually see the lines, which that tells you how the topography runs.

And so this section that's in the pink where the apartments are going, that area is actually flowing back towards the interstate.

So that's why you see where the stormwater pond is where it's at.

The center section, which you see that's in yellow, that stormwater management that we're controlling and uh will be you know designing for is actually flowing back towards where you see the streams that are next to it, and then you can see the stormwater pond there.

So it's pretty kind of to let you guys know those two sections there are actually flowing back towards the interstate and not actually flowing into any of the existing uh developments that you see on Weaver Dairy.

Third section you see in the blue, same thing.

That area the way that it's going to be designed and graded, it's going to actually send most of the water runoff back into that back corner, which then it'll have a hundred-year stormwater management.

We'll be using it to actually run through filtration systems, and then it will be dispersing timely into the stream that's in the back.

The last leg, which is probably the one that most people are concerned about, is the green section.

So that there, what we have is we have the stormwater management to control that leg, and then in that leg right there, everything goes into our stormwater management and then disperses into the town's stormwater management, which is now it doesn't do, right?

Because it's natural, it just flows, flows naturally.

Way we'll have it, we'll be controlling it.

It'll roll into the stormwater pond from the stormwater pond directly into the town's stormwater management.

So I thought I would show that to you.

Another interesting little fact uh about this that I'd like to actually point out is if you see where Coventry's at, above it, that whole section is staying about 80% untouched.

So what's there now, 80% of it will stay the same.

And actually, what we are changing is just what we're putting in for the stormwater management controls.

So that's also something I'd like to kind of point out.

You know, one of the things we always kind of think about is like when we're doing, especially a high density, you know, townhome development is kind of like where's you know, places for people to kind of have green spaces and whatnot.

Uh obviously, you have the tree line buffer, or you have the buffers between all of the uh the power lines, but then also we have sections of green spaces that are kind of right there in that center section.

And I believe what I tried to tell you guys at the uh at the concept hearing is if you add up that square footage to give you an idea of size, uh, that green space that's in that little center section at the bend, that's the equivalent of the same size as what you would see at Southern Village in that green space by all their restaurants and retail from a scale perspective.

Uh for the apartments, it this one when you probably read how we were doing it.

I thought it would probably lay this out so you guys could kind of get an understanding, because we talk about temporary parking and all that kind of stuff for the phase one.

So these are actually two buildings, it's not one big building, it's two buildings, and this is what we're considering phase one, and that phase one will also include that greenway area that's in the front of it.

Uh, we're gonna do a temporary surface parking until that building is stabilized, and then once that building is stabilized, we will then start on phase phase two, which phase two will then include the structure parking to handle both buildings, and then we'll build phase two.

Uh, another interesting fact, just to kind of lay out because everybody kind of wants to know well, how much space is there for other people to do things.

If you look at the space that's in front of the building two phase two, that's about a half an acre, and then the green section that would be on the other side of the road, that's roughly three acres.

This gives you kind of like a sense of kind of scale that gives you more of like kind of where we're at on the rendering of the apartments and how that would look from the streets.

This is actually something I thought it would like to point out as well.

Is this gives you really kind of a distance of there's a hundred foot buffer, but it's the hundred foot isn't just a hundred feet from where cars are in the interstate to the building.

It's actually more like 200 feet.

It's just a hundred-foot buffer between you know the two different you know ownership groups between the state and us.

So I wanted to kind of give you this as kind of a little bit of a scale because what you see one of the variances that we are asking for is a little bit of an encroachment for the parking structure on the apartments.

So this gives you kind of a little bit of a scale to where you can see you see the multi-purpose path that I believe we're asking for it to be 10 feet.

You got the proposed road in there, you can see the park that's in front, and then you know, from scale, like how deep and everything is.

Mixed use component, you know.

This is kind of where I where I am looking to be the section to where it kind of really kind of brings everything in.

The reason why I really, as I mentioned in the concept here, and why I feel like this is probably the best section for us to do some level of small level retail, is because of the office that we have in front of this, right?

So if we're putting in, I think over 2,000 linear feet of multi-purpose paths in here, uh, having some sort of connectivity to the office users would really kind of open that up so that what you can do to make it kind of viable from a retail standpoint is you've got morning users, lunch users, and then the evenings you've got evening users between the residents living there and the office people during the day.

So that's something that I would like to really kind of work on is how do we kind of tie in to that office users to make it to where they can see it?

Because you know, if we can give it to where it's appealing for them to use it, then obviously 2,000 linear feet of multi-purpose paths would be something, and having like some sort of green space that has kiosk or smaller retail to go to would be something more interesting than versus kind of hopping in your car and going somewhere.

Uh connectivity, you know, brought this up uh at the first hearing.

We actually have two different bus routes.

We have the north-south route that is actually, I think it's 0.18 mile from where we're talking about the apartments going.

We have the T route that obviously goes to East Chapel Hill High School to downtown, and then another part is the everywhere to everywhere plan to where you can see that this is a pretty big component of actually doing that connectivity and what we're actually working on to put in all of that uh multi-purpose trail that I've already mentioned.

Again, you guys see this on every project.

I don't feel like I really need to describe it, but you can also see that it's in the sub-area D, which does call for everything that we're already working on.

Let's see your complete communities.

You know, again, I believe you guys get this in y'all's packets so you've seen everything.

We feel like we've hit a lot of these kind of spaces, you know, open space, civic space, you know, close to employment, close to retail, close to transit, um adding in multi-purpose paths for it to be more walk walkable, bikeable, and we've got a wide variety of different kinds of housing, anywhere from small studios in the apartments up to uh four-bedroom townhomes in the uh for sale.

Affordable housing plan, we're offering up uh 10% of the number of units on the multifamily up at 80% AMI.

We're adhering to the 15% of the inclusionary zone on the for sale uh product.

Uh price points.

I haven't actually let me see your pricing.

Actually, you can see on the bottom what I is basically what I just said.

And I'm trying to be fast because you guys have all told me to be quick.

Uh let's see here.

Project responses.

Folks, let's see here.

We've heard uh issues about bufferings and all that kind of stuff.

I'm not really quite sure, like you know, really what to kind of say there.

We're not really trying to encroach too much on what we would consider to be other people's quote unquote housing.

Um the parking alignment on the phasing.

That was one thing that the planning commission really kind of wanted to you know focus on was the amount of parking that we're talking about.

But the way that we kind of do that designed as a phase one and phase two on the apartments, we'll really be able to kind of test out how much, because phase one is gonna be one of my smaller units that I see as like you know, single individuals.

And I'll actually give you able to see how how many cars are really kind of coming in and what really is that demand.

If the demand is a lot lower, then we know that we do not gonna have to build as much parking as we think.

Let's see here.

Greenway spaces again, hot highway noise to Coventry.

You know, the one thing I would probably say, you know, that was something that was was was mentioned a lot at the planning commission.

As I would said earlier in the conversation, if you look at the tree coverage that is above, right above Coventry and is the way that it sits today, nearly 80% of it is is staying.

It's not being touched.

So they really won't have any kind of effect.

The the noise that they have currently is probably gonna be the noise that they're going to have after this project is done because that buffer that they already have is staying in its current shape.

And that is it.

My timer didn't start, so I don't know how long I went, but hopefully I went in less than two minutes.

Thank you.

Is there anything?

All right, so members of council will be relatively brief this evening.

Um this is the the first of potentially two hearings on the conditional zoning request for 860 weaver dairy.

Um as y'all have seen the um sorry, the uh have a little technical difficulty here.

No, that's already.

Oh, you know, his back.

Sorry about that, guys.

Um, you know, as the the applicant mentioned with this project, you know, you have a rough estimate of where the project sits between Weaver Dairy Road and I-40.

Um staff's recommendation for you this evening is based again on our review of the project from both uh a technical perspective and kind of a long-range component, how it fits into the complete community framework.

Um we find that the project is well aligned with the complete community framework, and that the modifications to regulations that have been requested are reasonable and serve the public purposes to an equal or greater degree.

Uh and based on that review, our recommendation for you this evening is to approve the project sub to subject to the conditions of ordinance A.

Um I won't go over you know much more of the details of the project itself.

I think the the applicant mentioned everything other than maybe the the total unit counts.

Um we're looking at anywhere from 350 to 575 total multifamily units.

Um and then the town home units on the eastern portion of the site could range anywhere from 100 to 135 townhome units.

Um generally speaking, again, when we look at this project through the complete community lens, uh we find that it fits within uh kind of the general framework of complete communities.

Um as is typical with all of the conditional zoning projects that come before you.

Uh the planning commission had an opportunity to review this project.

Um they chose not to answer the two specific questions that they're typically charged with charged with answering.

Um, the question of consistency with the comprehensive plan, and other a recommendation as to whether the project should be approved or denied.

Um but they have instead shared pretty uh substantial comments that have been shared with you all as part of your packet um for this evening's uh agenda item.

And so uh with that, just uh you know brief reminder of the the procedures for this evening.

Uh with that, um both uh the applicant and I will be available for for questions.

Okay.

Council questions?

Sure.

Uh yes, Councilmember Rain.

Okay.

Um I have a question about the traffic light.

Is that part?

I I was reading through things and it was a little confusing the way the report was written.

So that because they were giving us data for with it and without it.

Is that part of the final project would be that light at the main entryway?

I think they call it XS one.

Um the traffic light is is highly unlikely to be part of the final project, um, with Weaver Dairy Road being a state-controlled road, um, kind of regardless of the recommendations that might flow out of the traffic impact analysis that the town commissions, ultimately NCDOT has the final say about what improvements are are actually built.

Um that traffic light doesn't meet NC DOT's criteria um for when a traffic light would be warranted.

Um they have very specific criteria and basically will not uh diverge from what those criteria say uh is the appropriate time to install a traffic light.

Oh, okay.

I apologize, because I thought I read at one point that it did meet some of the criteria.

So their final kind of decision-making criteria are going to be based on uh a number of factors.

The NCDOT division that that we work with prefers to use um basically the uh you take a 24-hour period, break it into one-hour periods.

They like to look at the eight highest hours of traffic and based on that criteria the traffic light wouldn't be warranted.

I believe one of the 24-hour periods would meet the level at which a uh traffic light would be required.

Okay, so they weren't looking at just peak then.

Correct.

They were looking at an eight-hour period.

Okay.

Um but it wasn't a distance issue.

Um distance is is one of the things that they think about, you know, how far would traffic they talk about queuing, right?

So at a at a red light, how far back is that that stack of cars going to extend?

And they want to be very careful to not allow that stack of cars to interfere with other intersections.

Right.

Um, because that's when you care create gridlock and other safety hazards.

Um so that was something that they they looked at.

Um and I think queuing was was kind of marginal or kind of in the problematic end of things.

Okay.

Uh one more question for you.

Um I know that Mr.

Brown said they were talking about a 10-foot multi-purpose path.

Does the town have standards for that as we're trying to develop our greenway system, or is it or don't we have standards?

Yeah, I believe we're actually looking at 14 um, not 10.

Um we we like that width.

It allows for easy access of our maintenance vehicles, um, obviously plenty of room for um kind of the diverse traffic that we're starting to see on multi-use pads.

It's it's not just um folks walking or uh writing analog bikes as we call them these days, but you're speeding along at higher speeds, and so the the more width we can give them the better.

Get it the better.

Okay, so would the 14 feet be stipulated in the resolution then?

It would be, and if it's not already, we'll we'll make sure it's included.

That yeah that would be great.

Um, 14 feet is perfect.

Um I guess I just um have a question about trees.

I know that you'll be taking some down um near Coventry and that the neighbors were concerned about that.

And we have recently had a development where some trees were not, they were on private property, but they were impacted by having their root zones cut when they were doing trenching and things over there.

Um would you be willing to use the same tree protection standards for tree that we would have for trees on your lot for trees that are off the site, so protecting 75% of the root zone if that root zone extends onto your property?

I mean we'll look into it.

Okay.

That would be that would be great.

We we actually had some trees in a neighborhood that were falling on houses because their roots had been cut right at the property line.

And uh that was I'd like to prevent that from happening again.

Um the stormwater, um, I know there's going to be a fair amount of deforestation out of those parts you're not touching, but obviously to build, you're gonna have to take the trees out.

Do we ever calculate what the impact of losing those trees is on pre- and post-development runoff?

Um we we don't calculate that impact per se.

We obviously ask the applicant to provide calculations of what pre and post-runoff would look like.

So they are required to study the site based on existing conditions, understand what the runoff looks like as is.

So again, without knowing without having the background of a of a professional stormwater engineer, I couldn't say exactly what the process of getting from pre-to post looks like.

But because they're implicitly looking at that difference, I imagine it's taken to into into account in in some way, shape, or form.

But I don't know that it's you know a kind of a discrete line item that that looks specifically at the impact or the benefit, like the ecological services of those trees.

Yeah, especially in places where we know we have downstream stormwater problems.

Um I think and clearly you will only be holding the standards that are currently in ordinance now.

But um it would be so it would be helpful for us to try to think about looking at that.

There's a really great program called iTrees that will calculate all that for you and let you know that if you deforest this much space here, it's going to lead to X amount more kiloliters of water coming off the site.

So if we're if we don't currently look at things that way, I think it would be really helpful to start if we do that's great, and I'd love to know that that we're doing that, because I think that's a really um, you know, it's not simply how much rain is falling on that square footage of land, but it's what it's falling on and how how that environment is processing it.

So and again, especially in sensitive areas like this, that's super important.

Thank you.

Councilmember Searing?

Yeah, I had a couple questions for our staff.

The first is the disturbance in the resource conservation district.

That we're giving a variance which would allow more than half of the research resource conservation district to be disturbed, is that right?

Um it's more than half, but only in the uh the outermost third of the R C D.

So the R C D is split into three zones, the streamside managed and upland zone.

Each of those different zones has different uh limitations for both impervious and land disturbance.

Um it's only in that outermost upland zone where we're considering a modification regulations that goes from 40 percent of maximum land disturbance up to uh 52 percent of land disturbing.

And how many acres would that be that would be additional acres that would be disturbed?

I don't have those numbers off the top of my head, but could certainly find them and share them with the with council.

Okay.

I just ask I have a friend who uh was trying to build a deck and the deck corner was going a foot into the resource conservation district near their house, and they were having a lot of problems with it.

And you know, then I see I just happened uh to have this conversation this week, and I'm looking at this and saying that half of the conservation district is being disturbed for this.

So is that typical to if do we treat individual homeowners differently than we do when we have a bigger development like this?

It's a matter of the process that they're they're kind of going through, right?

Um a typical homeowner is not coming before council, the legislative body that has the ability to modify rules on a case-by-case basis.

Um, we could certainly look into um building criteria or processes into our kind of generally applicable RCD rules to allow for minor shifts like that.

Um I'd also say we have um a variance process that is available to anybody, um regardless of whether they're coming before council or not.

Um so something like that may be the the easiest form of relief for um the sort of homeowner that you're you're mentioning.

Okay.

Uh just struck me, you know, when I was reading this tonight.

Um moving on to the to the buffer and the landscape buffering.

The southern property line, you know, we're we're um eliminating the landscape buffer requirement.

And I understand that there's a um power line easement there, but there is there are a couple neighborhoods, government trees one um weather stone's another, which have um you know pretty modest condominiums for sale kind of a you know, these these are folks who um are our you know missing middle who we we like to talk about a lot.

Um and I'm just wondering why we are seeing fit to not apply the same um buffering requirements here that we do for their community that we do for for others.

Yeah.

I think ultimately it's a matter of trying to balance interests.

Um we know that this site um is shaped unlike pretty much any other development um project you'll see in town.

Um we're trying to fit a lot into uh a relatively narrow stretch of land.

We know that this site um is shaped unlike pretty much any other development um project you'll see in town um we're trying to fit a lot into uh a relatively narrow stretch of land and one of the major priorities for the town is that multi-use path um and so when town staff kind of understood or or looked at the trade-offs um on our end being able to prioritize getting that that multi-use path and the connectivity and and recreational benefits that it provides um seem to be a a reasonable trade off um relative to the buffer and given that trade off I we received a letter from the head of the homeowners association of Weatherstone said no one from the town or the developer has reached out um to the head of their property association I think they're well known but is that why does that why isn't anybody um bothered especially if we're expected to have a variance a pretty substantial variance getting rid of the landscape buffer by their properties yeah um we followed kind of our our typical practices for community engagement um when it came to kind of the the general um community engagement for this project um which includes obviously the uh public engagement meeting near the the outset of staff review um and then these hearings um are uh a form of community engagement um how about the developer what why have you not reached out to the to that community I didn't know they were interested I mean uh Coventry I I knew that they were interested and I met with the lady that is the manager and the gentleman that also works there talking to them I even offered up to them that as we get further into long at a design I'd be happy to meet up with them show them what I'm doing.

Nobody's reached out to me we you know they've had opportunities between you know public hearings planning commissions concept hearings and I mean I'm hiding in plain sight you know half you guys have run into me in town so my office is on Franklin Street nobody who's reached out to me.

So anybody who has reached out to me I met with I've had coffee with a lady and her husband that live in this area and wanted to talk sat down and talked with them for about two hours.

Anybody that's ever reached out to me I've been happy to meet up with them.

Well I'd ask that you reach out to the um chair for the HOA at Weatherstone please and have that conversation and extend them courtesy that you're extending other property owners especially since you're asking for pretty major variants along their property line it would seem to me that might be something that could be worked out in advance and it would benefit you as well as the um weatherstone owners okay or no happy to do it.

Okay thank you Councilmember McCullough I wanted to kind of bounce a couple things off of there.

My understanding that a lot of the intrusion into the upland RCD is for the greenway can you tell us what percentage of that is for the greenway compared to just other purposes it's the greenway and the road that that connects the site the greenway is obviously a major town priority and then the road is is necessary to ensure adequate connectivity, fire access, other emergency access through the site.

Okay.

Thank you.

That's helpful.

And I was looking at the pictures that were provided for us very um like right before the meeting and I I'm not sure whether these are they're the pictures that are the trees and back of some of the town homes and I'm not exactly sure where they are um but but but I had a question about it looking at the the whole the whole system of existing um homes and and such and I was wondering um is that when the this is a a question for Taz um when Weatherstone, Kensington Trace, and Coventry were built um were there buffer requirements in those neighborhoods to those neighborhoods developers?

Because I noticed that the according to the pictures it looks like the lots are cleared right up to the property line.

I honestly am not certain what the the standards were at the time it you know Coventry was likely developed in the 80s and so I I I just wouldn't be able to speak to the the buffer standards at that time.

Okay.

And this is just a random question.

There is an OHP I should have asked this earlier but OHP on the on the maps that's right up against the property line that's obviously a paved area what is OHP?

Are you talking about on the on the site plan?

Um on the one that says stormwater, but I'm sure it's on others.

Um that says stormwater.

It's that the top of uh between the top of Kensington Trace and Weatherstone and the project.

Mr.

Brown just clarified OHP stands for overhead power line.

Okay.

Thank you.

So that's part that's pavement that's under the power lines.

Um again, I'm not quite sure which portion of the site plan you're referring to.

There's there's a little thing that joins up with the so the pavement, the road.

I'm on page 35.

So the road goes up and then it has some pavement that's sort of T-shaped.

How do you cast it to there?

And the Kensington Trace has a bigger area.

So I don't know.

Are you talking about right here where you can kind of see where you can see the power lines that's in gray, then the green space is staying there?

Yeah, that's the permanent surface.

That's right.

I mean the best the best way to see it is actually going behind the church.

Um then you can it lays out really well.

Because if you're behind the church, which I was there this morning because they wanted to talk to me about what was going on, and they reached out and I met with them.

Um but I actually got behind there and we I showed them how all that kind of laid out, and you could see how the power lines were running.

And so I was able to describe the project and how it was kind of incorporated and how it was built around them.

Okay.

Thank you.

Councilmember Sharp?

Um is there a slide where you could show us I'm sure this is on me, but I'm struggling to grasp a little bit where exactly the multi-use path runs.

And I know that there is a portion you said connects to Carroll Woods, and then where does it stop and where like where does it connect?

Does it connect on the other side?

Just where's the slide where I can best see the multi-use path?

So let's we'll we can start it from here if you want to.

Sure.

Um you can actually see a small uh it actually will run down Weaver Dairy Road, and then on the other side of the stormwater pond between this property and the church.

Do you know which one's the church is?

There's a church between us and the uh the housing, the town home development, the uh Luther Church, I think it is.

Uh it will split between there and then it will run behind all of the uh town homes.

And actually where we're talking about the buffer that uh council member Searing was asking about with the landscape.

We evaluated running it up or running it down below, but we actually felt like it was probably a little bit more of a community use if we ran it on the back end of the townhomes, so it tied into all the other housing projects over there, and so it'll run all the way down that.

And then if you can see we're basically just run the bottom line all the way across.

Stays there, um, and then just runs and connects all the way into basically the Harris Teeter uh development on the end where you've got uh old University Station and a Dare Drive.

Yeah, it's hard to visualize.

I don't have it one that's identifying that per se.

I mean I can maybe color code it on the next one if you guys wanted.

Um but on this one you can see like where it says path and it's on the other side of the apartments there.

And then this one's pretty good.

I mean, it can actually show you where they you know where what I'm calling the non-residential piece is across.

You can see where we have three pedestrian islands, you know, connecting across, but the uh the multi-purpose path will be on the other side of that.

So it runs behind everything.

It actually doesn't run it across any of the streets because the one thing I didn't want is I didn't want any kind of conflicts between people on bikes, kids on bikes.

I mean, one of my neighbor's kids came flying out on a scooter and wasn't paying attention, you know, and you know, so I was trying to avoid those kind of conflicts with kids on that.

So that's why we ran it to where it wouldn't be near any of the cars or streets.

So if you go, let's see what page am I on?

Page 37.

I don't have the same page numbers that you have.

Well, it's the one that shows phase one and phase two of the multifamily.

Yeah.

So is the multi-use path the thing down at the bottom with the little like uh it is.

It's that's right.

Oval shape.

That's right.

You can see how that kind of all you know kind of connects right there.

So ultimately the multi-use path will connect all the way from Carroll Woods to the Harris Teeter complex.

That's right.

And we're actually running it up on the back end of it to connect if they wanted to continue the connecting to where it could go down even further to where even UB Reavers Grove could bring it all together.

So it's it's going to all the way up to the tip of our property line and running it all the way.

And in what um will the multi multi-use path be constructed in along with the corresponding phases?

That's correct.

So it'll go in in chunks.

And that's right.

And so typically just the process that'll happen is I'll bring in a home builder who will do that side.

And then we'll bring in the infrastructure on the apartment side.

And so all the infrastructure will go in pretty much fairly soon.

So you'll have the multi-purpose path, the streets will be coming in, the utilities will be coming in, all that'll be done, you know, early on.

But only in chunks along with each of the proposed uh phases of buildings.

I don't believe so.

I believe it will go in when we're doing all the all the rest of the infrastructure when we're putting in the streets.

Okay.

Because to make this happen, the apartment side will and the multi mix the non-residential piece will actually have to work in tandem with the townhome side because of the cut fill, the way we're doing it, the civil engineering, the stormwater, the infrastructure with the road, everything.

And just to be crystal clear, the multi-use path is fully open to public.

100%.

Okay.

Okay.

Thank you.

Councilmember Barry?

Thank you.

Okay.

You said that the water would on the third piece would join the town stormwater management system.

Could someone from the town help us understand?

Because I've taken a walk about three years ago through there to see where the water flows.

So I I find that problematic.

From my recollection, I could be wrong.

Yeah, so the um the town operates an MS-4 system kind of municipal stormwater management.

Um my understanding is that there are kind of public stormwater lines that run alongside Weaver Dairy.

Um and so the green section of the site roughly slopes uh you know in order for this water to ultimately end up in the stormwater pond that's shown on the site plan and then in the town system, um, the grade of the the site, you know, it starts at Weaver Dairy and then slopes upward as you move away from Weaver Dairy.

Um so that allows for that, again, that kind of gravity feed um towards weaver dairy and then ultimately it goes under weaver dairy, correct?

I I don't have the the details on that, um, but that's that's not unlikely.

Um I believe it does.

And then it travels it daylights into yards.

Yards that have been flooded.

And that's what I find problematic.

It may not impact your direct neighbors, but it will impact others.

Um second question.

We talked about the multi-use path, but when will the green spaces be developed?

So the townhome section will come in while they're doing those phases.

Um the center space, that'll be graded cleared, and basically just green space if you want to say without any kind of actually you know small retail kiosks that we're thinking about starting it off with, that'll be you know part of that first phase because the way that we're looking at the site from an engineering standpoint is basically the whole thing is one, and so we're we're taking from the east portion and we're giving it to the west portion, so all that grading will take place at once.

So it'll be, I mean, usually clear cut is in one of your original or one of the first phases.

Okay.

Um we've received several emails about this, this project.

And this one is for staff.

How many um egresses and ingresses?

These are new words for me, but I am adopting.

How many entrances and exits would a project like this be required to have?

Because there's been a request that we have just an entrance only on Weaver Dairy.

Is that possible from the staff point of view?

Um We always prefer uh full access, so ingress and egress, uh if possible.

Um kind of limited access is usually something we we reserve for situations in which there are you know really problematic interactions with other intersections further west on Weaver Dairy, for example.

You have a lot of examples of those limited access driveways where uh you can only make uh uh you know a left turn or a right turn depending on which direction you're headed in.

Um they they serve a purpose, you know, that close to MLK and C DOT thought it was really important to control the flow of traffic because of safety concerns.

Um they can also make just kind of intuitive travel very difficult.

Um they they lead to more U-turns and and other kind of you know odd behavior.

That option could cause problems.

Okay.

This, I'm sorry, I just learned this tidbit today, that the folks at Carrolwoods actually paid for their traffic light.

And I would be cute, I'm curious to know how that went into played into the state's determination that a traffic light could go there.

Yeah, so um the whether or not an applicant or a you know development is going to pay for a traffic light is not a part of the state's determination about whether a traffic light is warranted.

Um we have a practice that it you know is pretty standard that whenever a particular development is kind of tied to the the need for a traffic improvement, whether it's traffic lights or turn lanes, whatever it may be, that the development that the cause that you know kind of triggers the need for the improvement is the one that pays for it.

Um it's it's rare that the town is gonna kind of proactive you know put up the money if we're able to um have a private developer pay for it.

Um the weaver or in the Carol Woods case, I believe that there were you know accidents and other triggering events that um rose to the occasion of NCDOT recognizing that a traffic light was warranted there and then Carol Woods was asked to pay for it.

Uh but it doesn't flow in the opposite direction that a developer offering to pay for an improvement then triggers NC DOT being willing to approve it.

Say that last bit again, please.

Yeah, so the the it's it's a one-way street that NCDOT determines whether or not an improvement is warranted, and then we figure out who pays for it.

Um but somebody offering to pay for an improvement um will not trigger DOT saying yes you can put it in.

Okay.

And with the size of this proposed development, that was not enough.

It it wasn't based on NCDOT's kind of preferred way of of deciding whether um traffic lights are warranted.

Um again, our NCDOT district that we work with prefers to look at kind of an eight-hour period.

Um based on that, it wasn't.

And I appreciate the repetition.

Um another thing is.

Anything's possible.

I mean, we I mean I would tell you that from a standpoint of I mean from stormwater control.

It's probably better where it's at.

But I mean we can evaluate it.

Ma'am.

Why is that?

Uh I mean you get a lot of topography there.

I mean, the site does slope.

I mean, so what we're doing is if you look at the way the water is kind of running, we're trying to catch it with some underground stormwater um along the side that would have the multi-purpose path and the way that it's feeding into the uh stormwater pond.

So it would be a little bit of a redesign on the uh stormwater management for that leg.

You want to add um that's it.

Thank you.

Councilmember Ryan?

Yes, I just have a quick follow-up to one of um Councilmember Barry's questions.

So in terms of the stormwater, I had made an assumption when you said it was going into the tent system that it was getting piped away, but it's getting piped under the road and then put into the creek.

Is that correct?

I admittedly don't know the extent of the stormwater system in that area.

So I I couldn't really verify or then I I think we're going to need for you when you come back.

We're going to need to really understand that because we already have a water system in a creek that floods routinely.

So and I know you're required to hold a hundred-year storm on your site and do that, but we're getting a lot of bigger storms, and I just want to know where that bigger water is going to be going.

Because we already have folks that get flooded at down there.

So if you can come back with that information, that would be helpful.

Thank you.

Councilmember Searing?

Is the So where you're joining up to the um to the shopping center and the apartments?

The how will that connection be made?

I know the apartments own the land with those existing, you know, to cement or um uh paved paths that are on it just right at the corner of your property.

But how is the how can you just explain to me again?

I I keep looking at it, but I just don't understand exactly how it's going to be.

Are you asking about the apartment side section or are you talking about the the section that you were asking about earlier?

Yeah.

So where does it just where does it come in and how would the these are the apartments, right?

Right here.

That's right.

That's right.

So you're gonna go on to their property?

Is that no?

We will connect uh with what we have, we'll connect to the existing one and then basically run it and then run it as a straight line down the property line using the uh using the overhead power lines to you know for what because it's a use that we can do under the under underhead uh uh the overhead power lines.

And so it'll just basically run like as a straight line.

Okay.

And this is this is your property as well.

Correct.

Okay.

All right, thanks.

Councilmember Nollard?

Um at what phase of construction do the retention and stormwater facilities begin operating?

That's a great question.

I would probably have to pull Dan up for that one.

Um I do know that we have different ones we have to do.

We have a resident control and all that, but when it actually kicks in.

Evening everyone.

Dan Jewell, Thomas and Hutton.

Um landscape architect, not an engineer, but I work with about 30 of them, so I'll I'll take a stab at that.

Uh they need to come on immediately.

So most of those ponds will function as temporary sediment basins while construction is going on.

And then as each phase is uh paved and grassed and all that sort of thing, they will be turned into permanent uh stormwater management facilities.

And the town staff is really good at making sure that those protections are in place uh from day one when paving goes down and that sort of thing.

Hope that helps with your question.

Thank you.

Um yeah, could you um I think this is for you, Taz.

Uh have we looked at this kind of how the traffic works over here through our vision zero initiative lens.

Um I think it's hard to say when you say like through the vision zero lens, we're we're always going to push for prioritizing pedestrian safety um wherever we can.

Um that's a continuous kind of tension between ourselves and NCDOT.

We have different mandates, right?

And C DOT is all about throughput.

Um town staff really come in and are kind of the hammer when it comes to pedestrian safety.

So I think vision zero, uh a great part of what it's meant for the town is that it kind of permeates all of town staff's review.

Um so for example, um when NCDOT said that a uh traffic light wouldn't be warranted at the Weaver Dairy um entrance to this site, um our fallback is to push really hard for pedestrian improvements, whether that's um creating a new pedestrian crossing across Weaver Dairy uh that would have an uh RRFB, you know, the rapid rectangular, rectangular rapid flashing beacons.

Um or um improving existing pedestrian crosswalks.

Um Coventry, for example, has um an existing crosswalk across Weaver Dairy.

Um one option would be rather than putting in place a new crosswalk, um, just making the existing crosswalk even better.

Um so I think that's a a good example of you know, vision zero isn't a particular kind of metric or rubric against which we review these sorts of projects.

It just permeates all of how we look at the kind of transportation element of a site.

Okay, so then I guess how um would there be things after construction is completed that you could imagine would rise to the level of of vision zero concern or something that would need to be remediated later or something that was creating a conflict.

It's hard to speculate at this point.

I think one of the great things that our our OMG team does is kind of constant monitoring of hot spots.

Um if we start to receive concerns, um, we're we're deploying um both people and technology to to monitor areas of concern.

Um we're looking at ways to deploy really quickly um kind of short-term improvements that can then lead to or prove the need for uh or make the business case for more long-term um improvements in an area.

Um so we do have the capacity and and we're are continuously building it out to watch and make sure we're being responsive to to any sorts of concerns around pedestrian safety.

Okay.

Um I also had a question about flipping the orientation of the townhomes and the internal street.

Um, Mr.

Brown, are there what I heard you say so far is that that would do something potentially negative to the stormwater program?

When you say internal, are you talking about the leg that's in the green or are you talking about the internal section that's in yellow?

Because we looked at both.

What's that?

Yeah.

In green.

I mean, we did.

I mean, it it just can't really come around as a way that probably, to be honest, I mean, it was like the best way to kind of run it.

And again, we led with that being on that side because again, I believe when I'm when the other previous project went, it was the opposite.

And it was the opposite kind of comments that they were getting.

So then that's why I kind of led with that way.

And then through design, it's just the way that we've kind of got it going.

You know, it just kind of worked because if you can kind of see that the way that the water naturally kind of wants to go.

And by having it that way, we're able to have those kind of catch basins that are underneath, which then leads down, you know, you have then the stormwater pond that'll be on the front, the kind of controls that that we've talked about, then goes into the city's plan.

Okay.

But I guess in terms of um I hear you that you watched the other video, which is the homelessness in America just actually a really good video, by the way.

Are you listening to yourself?

Unfortunately.

Okay.

Um I guess I guess my question is I don't remember what my question is.

Um, you asked me, you said that I watched the other video and then uh Theo's YouTube video uh popped up.

Okay.

I'm really trying hard.

Um, so my question is uh in terms of the experience, um, and I know this is subjective, but I guess in terms of the experience of the those neighbors, um is it is it more privacy or is it kind of a better experience to have the road or to have the houses?

And maybe that's too subjective to answer, but I guess what I'm trying to get at is which is kind of a better orientation to provide some of the things that we have to do.

Yeah, I mean the other thing what I was really trying to accomplish on here was as we were talking about the multi-purpose path was trying to limit the amount of conflicts, right?

I don't know what net zero is that you guys were talking about, but it I picked up on that it was basically how do you kind of you know make it safer for pedestrian walking, biking, and everything.

And that was a main reason why I felt like if we put it put it on the other way, you're you're just creating cross sections between people having to walk past.

Because at one time we had looked at m running the multi-purpose path and then running it through the neighborhood, putting it on the other side by the interstate, so that we could have the landscape buffer that we had been talking about with a Kensington neighborhood.

Um, but realistically it just kind of took away, and then I just felt like we were just gonna have more conflicts.

And so as you guys all know, you've heard of me, I got a 10-year-old, eight-year-old, and a six-year-old, they don't pay attention to nothing.

Um, so if you live in this one of these neighborhoods or anywhere around here and you're accessing it, you really have almost two thousand linear feet of just letting the kids just rip, right?

I mean, they don't have to stop, they can just kind of go, and you don't have any kind of conflicts with cars.

So that's another reason why we kind of looked at the way we did, and we thought it was a kind of twofold.

One, we thought we were satisfying what was one of the issues from the previous one, and then two, we were kind of being able to create a multipurpose path that gave people a lot of ways to just be able to walk and not have to worry about any kind of car conflict.

That's helpful, thank you.

Um I think my last question um is for our attorney.

Um I'm just wondering if some of the some of the things maybe we've learned or we've experienced through um previous developments that council member Ryan was, I think it was Council Member Ryan was referencing about um kind of some of the construction phase and some struggles that have happened with clearing and tree protection.

I'm wondering if those um if construction management can be put into the ordinance or the final agreement, or is that something that really has to be left for later?

A little different.

Difficult to to answer.

I mean the you you can negotiate conditions, you know, um within your authority, and I think there's it's possible to craft something like that within your authority, but the devil would be in the details.

Um so I think that probably is something that maybe would be for the next hearing.

Sure.

Um but um it's it's it would be a challenging uh thing to enforce it.

Well, that's my question.

I know we can say anything, but can we enforce it?

Yeah.

Um depends.

Um some things yes and some things no.

But I think that that you know it depends on what's proposed.

Okay.

Yeah.

Well, I guess I'd be curious then to hear from staff next time if there are things that we should be, if there are places where we think there might be something that we'd like to make sure happens in a construction phase.

Yeah.

Just I would say as a guiding principle, anything, any off site work is um difficult to take through an enforcement action.

Yeah, I I think that we'd be talking about on-site for them.

The tree might be off-site, but its roots are on so they share it.

So I know that in the past you have counseled us about trying to make changes to resolutions the night of a vote.

So since that probably will happen at the next hearing, just to figure out how we can how we can get that done so that if there is a solution, it would come back to us, and we're not trying to negotiate it from the day as well.

Yeah, exactly.

Ideally what you're gonna be looking for is for there to be a solid um solidly worded condition negotiated amongst the planners and the developer before you see it, uh, which is not always easy, and of course it's up to the applicant to uh to agree to that, even after you vote on the uh the conditional zoning next time.

Understood.

Well, if you if I I heard the applicant was willing to look at it.

So if y'all could do that, I think that would be appreciated.

Um, yeah.

County Yep.

Sorry, I just had one last question that I wanted to um bring up.

Um we've been contacted by some residents about concern, and this is something we've just never addressed anywhere, and I'd kind of like to hear what your response is to it about concerns for the people who would ultimately live in these apartments and townhomes because of the um various kinds of pollutions they'd be exposed to because of the proximity to I-40.

And I'm wondering what your internal conversations have been about that and if it's gone into your design plans at all about how to mitigate any of that exposure to noise and uh you know air pollution, light pollution, et cetera.

Just sort of just wondering how because those I've only I've only heard that addressed in in residents coming to us and not in our other discussion, so I'd just love to hear what your response to that is.

Have we actually studied the actually no no the noise pollution as it is and what the impact of this will be?

Um I guess I would given the stream might be too strong of a word for you, but um proximity to a major highway.

Um one can kind of assume that there will be noise and levels of um noise and air pollution that are suboptimal.

And I'm wondering if that's something you all have talked about or concerned yourselves with in any way.

We have you know, and funny enough, I mean when we were first looking in the Chapel Hill area, I mean I had looked at houses that were on this section, and actually one of them was actually a house that was butted up right next to it that we evaluated, and not buying it was not the reason why we didn't buy it was not because of where it was located.

And not buying it was not the reason why we didn't buy it was not because of where it was located.

So I don't think that's the one.

But you didn't buy it.

We didn't buy it because we were still in a rental house and we had another 18 months left on the rule on the lease.

So it was a little premature.

Um but we were still looking.

Uh but anyways.

The houses that we're talking about here uh aren't going to be any any closer than what you're already seeing along that interstate highway, right?

And we have the 50-foot buffer that in the NCDOT requires, and then we have the other 50-foot buffer that the town requires.

And so that gives a pretty good separation from there on it.

As I, you know.

And that's another reason why I laid this one out, you know, on there.

So you could kind of see that cut sheet to really kind of get a scale and a sense of what it is that the actual distance is that we're talking about that'll be between those and how much of it will really kind of be left in its own.

Um, a great one.

I mean, I think they I think the Habitat for Humanity and the East West Partners did a phenomenal job on Weavers Grove.

And I use that as kind of like it's as a litness test for what this will feel like because they're dealing with the same conditions there that they worked around that we're gonna have on this one.

So that's a great one for you to kind of get a sense of well, how does this sense and the houses feel?

I mean, I will tell you, you know, being able to buffer out the entire interstate from this, you're not gonna be able to.

As I said earlier, the church call me, they want to talk about this project and how uh how it's going to incorporate into their church facility.

And we were in their back parking lot, and you can hear the interstate from there.

So it's not there's no way to like cancel that noise out.

Okay.

So in other words, you you feel like it's far enough away from the interstate that that's not something you need to worry about.

That's right.

I mean, you you know, I always kind of say it's you know, it's it's a noise that you're gonna kind of hear, but it's not uh it's not like being at Talladega, right, to where the cars are zipping around and it's like all of a sudden it's loud.

It's it's a kind of a constant buzz, if you will.

So it doesn't bother me, but you know, I'm also a different person.

Okay.

Okay.

That uh brings us to public comment for this item.

Um I want to begin by thanking everyone who's come out tonight and also acknowledge those who sent in your thoughts and questions in advance.

Um we do value hearing from you.

Uh tonight, due to the larger than number usual of number of people signed up to speak, we'll be handling things a little bit differently.

Um, we ask that each speaker keep your remarks to two minutes or under instead of three.

Uh we do this so that we can hear from as many people as possible during the 45 minutes we've allotted for public comment.

Staff will assist with the timer.

Um when it goes off, please complete your sentence to wrap up and send additional comments or questions to us via email before the second public hearing.

Uh second, to make sure we hear input from the various neighborhoods adjacent to this property.

We have asked everyone to indicate your neighborhood when you signed up to speak.

Using that information, we will try to make sure we have called folks from the various neighborhoods rather than going strictly in order.

And third, for members of our Spanish speaking community, when you're at the podium, um the interpreters will provide consecutive translation.

Um because that takes longer, we will offer four minutes instead of two.

Uh to keep things running smoothly.

Mayor Pro Tem Ryan will call two people at a time.

Again, if the first person can come to the podium and the second one can uh come down to the front to be on deck.

So you're in the seat that is in the middle of a row or the back of the chambers, please come toward the front of the room so that it's easy for you to come forward when it's your turn.

With all that shared, Mayor Pro Tem Ryan, please take it away.

Okay.

So we have Wes McMahon first, followed by Anna Williamson.

Uh good evening, Council.

I am here to deliver comments uh from your planning commission.

So I'm representing the planning commission this evening.

Um we uh review 11 items that we send you.

There's a lot of information there.

So we feel like it's important to come and give a little context and highlight some items.

There was a lot to like about this project with the variety of housing and the greenway proposed.

Um but we had um concerns from the community and questions we could not answer about stormwater.

And I think that was confirmed tonight with questions from Councilmember Barry about where does this water going and not having a clear understanding?

At our meeting, Taz was not there, so maybe if he was there we would have got more information.

But we didn't feel comfortable voting on this because we didn't have information from staff to help explain um the issues with stormwater.

So uh we did not vote for the ordinance for that reason.

Another thing was traffic.

Uh folks brought a lot of comments about the traffic, and again, we had questions about the traffic patterns, but we did not feel that we had sufficient um information from staff to answer those questions.

So uh we mentioned the parking, making sure that we get less parking in the multifamily if we can and unbundle it.

feel comfortable voting on this because we didn't have information from staff to help explain um the issues with stormwater so uh we did not vote for the ordinance for that reason another thing was traffic uh folks brought a lot of comments about the traffic and again we had questions about the traffic patterns but we did not feel that we had sufficient um information from staff to answer those questions so uh we mentioned the parking making sure that we get less parking in the multifamily if we can and unbundle it something you'll hear from the planning commission every time uh but I think we're in the same boat with you where uh we did not vote on this because we did not feel like we had sufficient information on stormwater where it's gonna go and then also the traffic so that is your recommendation from the planning commission that we find answers to those and that is why we did not vote um that evening thank you Ms Williamson decided not to speak so we have Luis Rodriguez and then I have a Lake Forest resident who has a lovely signature but I can't read it never mind Santiago Rodriguez Vengo de los parqueos y quiero decir that we agree for escucharnos you la municipalidad y atraves de Kathleen Robalino nosotros nos reunimos ellos informados de la construction que se va a cabo excuse me sorry in segmentos cortos para que you put se puede empezar otra vez cortos nuevamente a la concejalnos Luis Santiago Rodriguez Vengo de los parqueos Legbuks uh good evening uh my name is Luz Santiago Rodriguez I came from the uh uh parking lots uh legbuks and um thank you for your having me here council uh men and women rovalino in communication conduct atrás de nuestro parqueo and through catalyu we will be in keeping in touch you know uh regarding this new construction that's gonna be built uh on the back of our lotamos cuenta de que la company que va a construir una entrada asia nuestro parqueo and we noticed that uh the construction company that is gonna build there wants to build an entrance through our lot isn't the hard central y nosotros como community estamos pensando que los que van a construir and we as a community uh we're a little concerned especially for those that are gonna be constructing that entrance to the mass que ellos van que nosotros no tenemos ningún acceso donde va a ser la construction uh I think it's gonna be an additional expense and that is a necessary especially because we're not gonna have access to the additional uh construction that's gonna be built yo tengo 22 años de vivir in Los Parqueos Legbuks you quiero decirle de que nunca hemos tenido ninguna clase de problemas siempre felicement and I've been living in the parking lot uh for about twenty two years there and to be honest uh we never had any issues there and we've been living harmoniously classes of como pueden ser buenos pero no sabemos y la verdad que nosotros no queremos ser o problema para ellos ni que ellos se han ocasioned para nosotros and we notice that the construction that's gonna be built it's gonna be an apartment complex and we're real concerned we're not sure what type of neighbors we're gonna have it could be good neighbors bad neighbors uh but uh to be honest we don't want to be uh causing problems for anybody and vice versa we don't want to be uh we don't want uh anyone to cause problems

And we notice that the construction that's going to be built, it's going to be an apartment complex.

And we're real concerned we're not sure what type of neighbors we want to have.

It could be good neighbors, bad neighbors.

But to be honest, we don't want to be causing problems for anybody and vice versa.

We don't want to be we don't want anyone to cause problems to our community.

Well my form of pensar and look or qué se yo not beneficiaria that existir so what I suggest since there's gonna be kids in our in our lot and animals and there's gonna be the entrance there I believe that maybe instead of building that entrance we should build like some type of fence or something that blocks for people from coming into our lot.

I think that would be the best way to go by this community because much for our community very grateful for everything that you do I you're very considerate and thank you for taking the time to listen to us and on behalf of the parking lot or lot and lake view.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Okay we have a Lake Forest resident followed by Bob Burt Hi I'm Jim Pratzman Lake Forest back when I was on the council I remember a parade of developers coming through the chamber everyone full of promises and assurances about what would happen.

Some of it happened much of it didn't the project is this project is coming with promises that will be almost impossible to fulfill specifically you've heard a lot about stormwater management and even using the very best practices that we know about there is no way that the amount of land that's being disturbed will allow us to not have challenges of impervious surfaces, creek scouring sedimentation runoff and downstream flooding such as what we've seen at Eastgate Crossing.

Twenty years ago we spent more than a million dollars in my neighborhood to clean the lake up after it was flooded by a sedimentation from a construction spree of developers the the DOT and the town of Chapel Hill itself.

We don't want to go through that again.

If you do decide to approve this project do it based not on the developers promises but on certainty the town should require the developer to establish a five million dollar escrow fund to be used in the event that Eastwood Lake experiences accelerating amount of sedimentation build up both during construction and for the next ten years.

This thing isn't going away just because the construction stops you can be sure that when our lake fills to capacity with sediment from this project flooding businesses and homes near Eastgate people will wonder who the town council has been working for them or the developers thank you.

Okay and we have Bob Burt followed by Hank Elkins and this is a little bit different than the way you signed up but we're trying to go between different parts of the area.

My name is Albert Howlett I live at 105 Essex Drive in Coventry I have serious objections to the developers proposed modifications to the regulations.

Steep slopes.

The applicant requests approval to disturb 76% of the steep slopes.

The regulation is up to 25%.

The developer justifies building on the steep slopes, claiming the land was disturbed by a previous developer.

I find no evidence on the ground of any such earlier attempt at development.

There is a remote, this is a remote and awkward parcel that has been languishing for decades.

And I oppose the proposed slope modification to regulations because it will greatly exacerbate stormwater runoffs.

Number two, upland conservation land.

The applicant requests approval of to disturb 52 percent of the upland conservation land.

As someone said, the regulation is 40 maximum.

Designated conservation land should remain undisturbed, not turned into greenway or something else.

Recreation space.

The applicant requests approval to allow an unspecified amount of recreation space on conservation land.

The regulation is that all recreation space must be outside the conservation land.

The I-40 buffer, the applicant requests intrusion of up to 50 feet into the I-40, 100-foot buffer in multiple places.

Even at 100 feet, you can easily hear and see through those trees, the I-40.

And five, plantings under the power easement.

The applicant requests approval to eliminate the plantings in the 136-foot-wide power easement.

This runs from Carroll Woods all the way to Harris Teeter.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay.

We have no clapping, please.

No clapping, please.

My name is Bob Burnt.

I'm a resident of Carroll Woods and also live in Coventry.

I sent the photos to the council, and I just want to describe the Coventry entrance to Coventry as Essex Drives and Essex Drive and on either side of the road.

There are townhomes on the west side of Coventry and townhomes on the east.

The ones most impacted by the proposed project are the ones on the west side.

And they are the ones that were shown in my slide.

And they will be impacted by the proposed road.

My two comments are about the impacts on those in terms of the existing tree canopy.

I recommend that the proposed project be revised to preserve some of the existing tree canopy between the Coventry neighborhood and the project.

The project, I believe, is not responsible to the environmental features that are located on the site, and is also not reasonable in the public interest because all of the existing trees along the eastern boundary with Coventry will be removed.

The other concern I have is the 10-foot buffer on the east side of the proposed project adjacent to Coventry is also is too narrow and should be increased to provide adequate buffer for between the proposed project and Coventry develop residents.

The road noise and the view of traffic will adversely affect the homeowners in Coventry.

An overhead power line is located on the east side of the buffer adjacent to Coventry, and no plantings are allowed in the utility easement for the power line.

Therefore, the trees will be trimmed and will the buffer width is 10 foot, and the trees will the power line will impact the space for the trees that the applicant proposes to plant uh plant in the buffer.

So I also included my comments in writing to the council.

So thank you very much.

Hank Elkins, followed by Chris Bart.

Hank Elkins and Imagine Bob and Mary.

A few years from now, they have just leashed an apartment at 860.

Wonderful school, says Mary.

The bus lines of the T and NS accessible to us.

And Bob says, yes, Mary.

And the price is right.

But unknown.

So Bob and Mary is that all over the world.

Studies have shown that living close to a highly trafficked highway results in air pollution that is disproportionately deadly.

And results in higher rates of cancer, reduced lung capacity, strokes, and heart attacks.

The American Heart Association says that air pollution is the world's greatest source of environmental disaster.

And so the Harvard School of Public Health last year published a study that showed even with rates of pollution below the recently lowered standards.

Cancer of multiple types is disproportionately prevalent for those who breathe pollution.

It would be nice to think that the buffer that is proposed would reduce that pollution.

But studies have shown that up to 600 feet away, air pollution of nitrogen dioxide still persists at at least half the level from the source of the road.

The time is now to say no to the disastrous levels of health, death, and disparity.

Thank you.

Okay, we have Chris Burt, followed by Scott from Cedar Hills.

Good even good evening, Council.

Mayor, Mayor and Council.

Tonight I'm also speaking as a Coventry resident.

I'd like to talk about the points about the comprehensive plan that were raised in our petition on September 7th.

So the part of the project we're specifically concerned about is this the southern leg that is immediately adjacent to Coventry.

And if you look on the future land use plan map, that's shown as a transitional area.

And this designation means that there should be harmonious transitions between adjoining properties.

And we do not believe the 10-foot buffer meets the intent of the future land use map.

In addition, the map narrative says it is important to mitigate undesirable impacts that a development might have on an adjoining site.

The use of the 10-foot buffer, the placement of the collector road on the east side that will operate at level of service F, and the loss of tree cover are undesirable impacts that need mitigation.

Also, the developer has not provided architectural elevations of the proposed townhomes to help the council or the public assess whether there is compatibility.

In fact, stipulation number 36 uh forbids review of the elevations by the community as a design commission.

The map narrative suggests that there are appropriate transitional techniques such as landscaping or changing land uses or altering architectural and building forms.

I don't believe that simply saying townhomes are sited next to townhomes is a sufficient criterion to meet the intent of the transitional area designation on the land use plan map, which is part of the comprehensive plan.

So I think it would be desirable for the council to ask the developer to redesign the transitional area to address the concerns of citizens.

Only then can council make the finding that the project would be consistent with and conform to the comprehensive plan.

Thank you.

Okay, we have Scott from Cedar Hills, followed by Linda from Coventry.

So I was gonna answer Ms.

Barry's uh question and and uh count uh staff's when the stormwater leaves this development, it comes to me.

All of it drains right into my yard, and then it goes to my neighbor's basement, and so anything that you do to put more water in the system.

The town doesn't have a stormwater system here.

They are just letting it rip.

And it's not doing well.

So most of what you hear today is about problems with the little green area, and uh that's the transitional area that was just proposed, and that is where the stormwater will be made worse, even though it's great to see that the design is improving from actually putting things in there.

But we all see in the previous uh things that have been built in the town that the design to what actually happens varies a lot.

The best way to understand that is there's a nice beautiful stormwater basin right at the bottom of Vilcom, which is also on these maps, and could be used, except that it sits there and no water goes in.

I went up after Chantel.

No water in it.

So that means they built a nice basin and never connected the outflows.

And that doesn't cut it.

That doesn't help me when the storm comes and my property is flooded with all the water from the Weaver Dairy Basin.

Come out and look at the place.

Everybody should be out and look at it.

Ernie's offered to show people around, and you can see the hill, the highness it's going to be, how it's going to tower over Coventry.

You can see how the water flows, and I all recommend to staff as well as to the council to come have a look at what is going on and get your own opinions and on what works and isn't going to work.

Thank you.

Excuse me.

Could you spell your last name for us just for the record?

Thank you.

Good evening, Council and Mayor.

My name is Linda Eide, and I Lynn Coventry, one of the units that backs onto Weaver Dairy.

I used to have a berm and a lot of bushes, but they disappeared in part when the Weaver Dairy Road was widened.

An entry into this project so close would probably mean a turn lane that would take away what little I have left.

But I'm going to talk more about another issue.

Some of the things that Hank had mentioned.

Fine particles are sent up into the air by traffic on freeways, like I 40 by road and tire wear, by brake pad wear, as well as by exhaust.

The particles are so small that they can embed in the lungs to severely compromise lung function.

They travel across the blood brain barrier.

They can damage our DNA.

They can promote mutations, give rise to tumors and to cancer.

One of the more devastating dementias.

The point is that we know so much more now.

And fine particulate pollution is a big topic because it's something that wildfires are putting into the environment a lot.

So we know a lot more.

And we know that the nature of the buffer is that it's a passive effect.

It's a function of all of the leaf surfaces collecting onto themselves particulates coming from the freeway.

The width of the point is knowing this, we need to pay attention to possible future legal liability for adverse health effects.

Thank you.

Okay, we have Bruce Rundberg next, followed by Charles Henich.

Good evening.

Mayor, council members.

My name is Bruce Rundberg.

I live uh I've been living in Coventry for nine months.

And uh I respectfully request my 180 seconds.

I've lived in Chapel Hill 33 years.

I haven't been before the council for 10 years, so I would think I could at least have three minutes, which I prepared for.

So thank you for consideration, Mayor.

Uh everybody gets two minutes.

Thank you.

Thank you.

On uh September 7th, several of us from Coventry prepared a summary of complaints, really, and had uh over a hundred people that signed it in two days.

And we submitted each one to you by email uh separately, and I'll give this copy the original to the clerk.

I would just add that I'm uh until last year a professional engineer.

Between 1992 and 1995 or 2015.

We regularly met with neighbors in advance to gain their support on a project.

This developer has not met with Coventry residents, period.

Some points for your consideration.

The developer plans are sketchy with numerous unclear details and solutions.

They are cramming in as many square feet of townhouses as possible, especially on the leg of the property that touches Weaver Dairy.

They are asking for numerous exceptions to the regulations.

Stormwater protection regulations are already inadequate.

Thank you, Mr.

Ryan.

Are going to be inadequate.

Please feel free to email your comments.

We will read them.

We've received those, Mr.

Rumberg.

And we have some of us have read them.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Charles Henry, followed by Mike Gilliam?

Sorry.

Charles Hennage, followed by Mike Gilliam.

My name is Charles Hennage, and I live across the street from Scott.

I'm the uh guy with the flood in the basement.

We just started construction uh to repair my basement today from the flood of Chantel.

Now I would have to say that watching the development of this project uh that the project is far improved from the original lull water concept.

It has been improved in many ways, and it's quite obvious that the area of greatest concern at the top of the watershed, which drains into Eastwood Lake, which Mr.

Pratzman lives at, and from there to Eastgate and the Blue Hill District, uh, is that little strip of land that's in the green box that you saw in the diagrams today at the east end of the new proposed development.

I would propose that there are only 25 townhomes there, and that that be abandoned is it is an inconsequential size to the project, and it has a devastating effect on the drainage.

I think that there's nothing to do when you talk about remediating uh the removal of trees.

The trouble is that it's not just the impervious surface.

The trees are actually taking the water up and turning it into oxygen and filtering the water that's in the ground.

So there's a loss that we can't repeat or replace, and I think that one of the things that I would like to call everybody's attention to is all of the all of the um uh displays that everybody has had, all the elevations that you're seeing for the project, uh, kind of just don't include the power lines or the interstate, which is right very close to that.

And when they're saying that this is anything like uh the uh um uh the development that's over uh in Weaver's Grove, uh there's no comparison.

There's a room for a buffer and a berm there, and there's not even room for a barrier wall on this project.

This is pretty much an awful idea.

It does not really contribute anything to the community, but I think that if we eliminate that one little green area, we probably will have a uh uh a sustainable solution that won't exacerbate the already overdone problems.

Thank you.

Okay, we have Mike Gilliam followed by Lois Howlett.

Mayor and council, thank you very much.

Um I live at 113 Steeplechase Road, and my wife Bonnie and I, on the night of Chantal, walked across the street to 118 Steeplechase and saw a river in in our neighbor's front yard.

It's normally a creek that goes under their driveway.

It was a raging river that destroyed fences, destroyed their car, and they were standing in their garage trying to rescue personal property as best they could.

I got a U.S.

government map and found that much of that water was coming from this project site.

Uh last Saturday, my wife and I walked the property line along the power lines and along the top of Kensington Trace apartments to see where the water would come.

And in fact, we saw a four-foot pipe going under Weaver Dairy.

That was a question tonight, and another pipe near the uh Duke Medicine site at the end of the that that same area.

We met a woman who lives now on Timberline Road, but who lived for eight years in Kensington Trace.

She said that today water, if it rains hard, will flood in the apartment where she had lived, in spite of a $50,000 project that was built to manage water flow.

She says she pleads with you guys to really consider what you're doing to those people and to the rest of us.

So my opinion is that unless we can manage water the size of a Chantel storm and worse, our neighborhood is really in jeopardy, and we urge you to consider the details of what their proposal says for stormwater management.

Thank you.

Thank you.

We have Lois Howlett, followed by Brian Grimwood.

Yes.

Good evening, I'm Lois.

And I will talk about the forest land that's next to Coventry, that lake that drops down.

It's covered with a mixed forest of tall trees around 50 years old.

I mean, we're not talking just, you know, small trees.

They're huge.

But they have an understory of younger trees and shrubs.

The South the South Lake has slopes of varying steepnesses, and some are beyond the maximum allowed for development.

I've been talking about the flooding.

Well, what can we mitigate that?

It's um, and of course, that goes into Carroll Woods.

It goes further downstream, as we've heard.

But forest, especially forced on hillsides, especially that forest near us.

And how there's so many ways, it's like a huge sponge.

You probably know all the layers the rain has to go through, and then it is put into the ground and held by the roots.

It's amazing, actually.

It's nature uh working at its best.

But if a development of this forest land goes forward, that super permeable land turns into concrete, roads, and roofs.

Almost 100 percent, in my opinion, impermeable.

There's a big growing concern about loss of urban forest and campaigns to protect those like our diverse forest.

And I I just got this magazine.

Another magazine.

Audubon just a couple of days ago.

There's a big article about loss of urban forest, and it really is just about North Carolina.

It's about thousands and thousands of acres being stripped right now in our state.

And then it focused on the triangle, and then the first sentence is a resident of Chapel Hill, and it's also about us, you know.

So it's really coming home.

And this is one quote from that.

The trend of losing forest development is especially troubling as climate change accelerates.

Along with their scenic appeal, trees provide shade, soak up rainfall, absorb carbon dioxide.

So it's time we work with nature and not against it.

Thank you.

We have Brian Grimwood and then Marianne Ratcliffe, and that is the last person I have signed up.

Good evening.

Uh Brian Grimwood.

I live at 118 Essex Drive in the Coventry townhouses.

And uh Chantel, a comment.

We we live on the east side of uh Coventry, and we have that little intermediate stream that we can see out our back windows.

And I think we lost probably about six inches of the main channel due to uh scouring in from Chantel.

And of course, there was a uh a lot of the water rose pretty high, but it didn't get close to our bill our building.

But uh we did get some water down in a uh a lower uh crawl space.

Um on the August Planning Commission meeting, I heard uh uh Mr.

Brown, I believe, uh say that 18 acres of the development would be impervious surface.

Big rain like Chantel or more, say 12 inches of rain would result in nearly six million gallons of water that would need to be handled by ponds and underground stormwater detention tanks, so that the proposed development would not add to the damage in Chapel Hill caused by a few uh future Chantel.

I was encouraged at the Planning Commission meeting that Mr.

Brown said he had walked Coventry and found that the 45-year-old uh development had 1980 standards for stormwater control, which is just typical of uh of that age.

And uh so I'm glad he had taken a look at it, and I'm sure he had seen the elevation just to the west of Coventry for that strip of land, how Coventry kind of sits in a little bit of a bowl for that.

So that's uh that's my talk.

Thank you.

Hi and Ms.

Radcliffe and then that would be our last speaker.

Good evening Mayor and council members.

My name is Mary Ann Ratcliffe.

I'm a resident of Chapel Hill and I also work at Carroll Woods.

Carol Woods has previously conveyed interest in the stormwater elements and traffic impact of this development.

You have taken that feedback seriously as evidenced by your questions and comments this evening.

Thank you.

My comment this evening is informational for benefit of Mr.

Brown and the council.

Carol Woods recently completed a master planning process and have a has a plan for our next 20 years or so and unfortunately that plan does not support a greenway to be connected from the 860 property.

This is not a statement of opposition to the developments greenway.

We appreciate the town's goals of everywhere to everywhere and Mr.

Brown's inclusion of this element in his plan I just wanted to make you aware and thank you.

Thank you.

Council lightning round we can just start uh Councilmember Nollart I think we've gotten a lot of questions about um many of the issues that were raised tonight and one of the things that's very clear to me is that um town investments to manage water are going to be a really critical issue.

The standards that are in place for this development and the impression that I've gotten from talking to several stormwater engineers about it are, you know, we're going to have a hundred water hundred year stormwater component of this which is significantly more than what the state requires and is more than what Chapel Hill used to require we used to require 25 year storm.

It's more than what our neighbors require in other towns the key issue that we're running into is that water problems have to be solved at a watershed level and we're going to need to do analyses watershed by watershed and figure out interventions that the town can undertake as a whole in order to address these successfully.

What I see in this project that I like is that it's providing a type of homes in a place that makes sense that we desperately need 73% of our population growth is 65 plus we are 1,300 children short in the school district because nobody can find if they're my age a place to buy and live here.

The town homes that are to be added here are the only types of places somebody like me could conceivably find and buy on an income of under 1000 a year which we have a very high median income in this area.

We're an extremely wealthy town in an extremely wealthy county that is occasionally number one in per capita income in the state on a regular basis.

So I think the inclusion of these units in this place these homes that would make this into a place are good.

I think that we have to take very seriously the concerns about how we're going to manage water across town but one thing that has stuck out to me listening as well is that places are already flooding and that preventing this is not going to protect the places that are flooding which is precisely why the town has to figure out how to address the flooding that is happening now and plan for additional flooding that may happen over time as climate change intensifies but that blocking new homes will contribute only to make things more expensive and even less diverse than they already are it's not an effective solution to people who are currently being flooded.

There's going to be more active intervention required in order to address that and and operating on a single property at a time is something that I think we can look into.

I know Carborough has looked at how to provide technical expertise for that there's even cost sharing concepts but um preventing a development of this sort I I have I have not seen engineering analyses to suggest that that is going to improve flooding for anybody or meaningfully mitigate it in cases less severe than a Chantal level event which is uh the most rainfall that we've recorded in such a period Councilmember Ryan followed by Councilmember McCullough okay um so I think that the housing on this project is good.

I think the use is good.

I'm fine with all of that I do I have serious concerns about the stormwater um I agree with my colleague Mr.

Nullard that the town does need to pursue watershed level stormwater solutions.

I think that's going to be a really important part of our work for the next several years.

I do disagree though that building new houses that are going to increase flooding downstream doesn't matter.

I think that that does matter I think we have a duty of care to people who live downstream.

That's the big stormwater issue here, and that the rest of the site you've figured out ways to manage stormwater in the area really well.

So I think we need to go back and look.

That little leg is giving you the problems.

It's also the problems with the buffers with Coventry.

It's problems with taking down those mature stands of trees in their backyards.

So I know that you're a very creative developer, and I'm hoping that you can go back and take another look.

I think it will be really important to reach out to the Coventry folks and have some discussions and see what kind of solutions we can come up with.

So I would like the applicant and staff to look if you can if there are any places where there's significant trees on across the property lines that you can work with staff to see if there's a way that we can make sure those get the same protection as significant trees on your lots.

And my only comment on the housing mix is just a four-bedroom townhome is enormous.

And we're really, because we're trying so hard to get more affordable, more missing middle, generally we would rather have more smaller units than very big units.

So I if you can consider that, that would be great.

Thank you.

Councilmember McCullough.

Just to bounce off a few previous things.

Even if you don't know what it is.

And for generations, Chapel Hill has been saying no to density and saying yes without really realizing it to sprawl and high cost high cost housing.

When we look at the existing developments, the Weatherstone, the Kensington, the Coventry, they were built without stormwater, probably any stormwater management at all.

They are contributing to their own problems.

And the description of Coventry as being in a bowl is really kind of horrifying in and of itself with some with a creek going underneath a driveway.

It's like the people were surprised when Crabtree Valley Mall flooded.

There were some places that should have been avoided 30 or 40 years ago, and they were not.

It would not be practical, and it wouldn't be the kind of choice that one would make if one had to make that kind of construction on your own property just with your own house.

So I just want to say that, you know, the fact is that we are going to have to look at stormwater holistically for all of our town and all of our watersheds.

Looking at existing properties as well as new properties.

But you know, sometimes you have to realize what's fair and what's practical and pragmatic to expect for what that's worth.

Councilmember Barry, followed by Councilmember Searing.

Thank you.

I'm going to follow right after Councilmember McCullough about controlling the water where it falls.

We heard from the applicant where the water is going to be controlled for two-thirds, and that the most problematic part in the green is going to go into our system.

Which I pointed out is problematic already.

That's where I'm having deep concerns.

I have a picture of Mr.

Scott's front yard flooded, and I have another picture.

One flooded from Chantal, but another one flooded before this.

So we didn't have to wait for Chantal for them to be flooded.

So I can't in good conscience say that we should move forward with development in that area if we're going to have stormwater join the rest of it.

So I can appreciate that.

But your your 40 years, but my four years of watching this, I couldn't support that.

Shantal was a huge wake-up call for us.

Do we expect it to happen again anytime soon?

We hope not.

We don't know.

We hope not.

But it was wake-up call for us that we have to, as a town, address our stormwater system.

We must pick it back up in earnest.

Second thing about this project, um, and I'm going to go from your comments.

Thank you.

Parking unbundled.

I know my colleagues, some of them really want to not burden those who are car-free with subsidizing parking for those who do use cars.

If we do if the applicant were to do that, I would want assurance from the applicant that they would take into account parking for those who are affordable housed who need to be housed affordably, that that would be factored in.

If they needed a car, then that would be factored into their cost.

Is that a does that it's calculated in their total amount that they can pay, which includes utilities as well?

Okay.

You're not on mic, Mr.

Brown.

I got a lot of something.

It doesn't help the people who are listening.

So if you could come to the mic if you wanted to make that comment.

The way the rental works for the affordable is it includes everything.

So even if I did charge them for the parking, it would actually reduce the same dollar amount from the rental rate.

So it's it's a capped amount that they can that they're that you can charge them for rent.

So they would be entitled to the parking.

Correct.

Okay.

Thank you.

Sometimes it helps just to be explicit.

Um then I would want to see the buffer between the properties.

Um not clear-cutting, uh not clear, I shouldn't say that, not cutting as many trees as proposed between Coventry and your property.

Um, and also looking at a fence.

Um, and I'm not sure where I stand with that, but I am concerned about the neighbor who spoke to us about um where you will have your um recreational area.

I don't need a response now.

I'm just telling you what I am concerned about.

Um I'm gonna close with what I started with, and that is the stormwater treatment.

It's the project is a no for me right now because of that strip, that green strip and what it will do to the rest of our community.

And we do have to be responsible to our community when we make those decisions.

Thank you.

Councilmember McCullough quickly, and then Councilmember Searing.

I don't in any way want to insinuate that I felt like we should ignore any contribution to the problem of that green box.

I am just saying this is a whole lot more complicated than people seem to realize.

Councilmember Searing.

Yeah, so I always think you know, when we see these these uh developments the and on you know property that is a good place to put you know some more density.

Um we obviously have to wait to see who um comes forward to develop the property.

Um but and then we evaluate what the project is as we're doing tonight.

But that doesn't mean that the choice is between doing nothing and you know just doing what the project is is before us.

And I really like this area of town.

I think it has some of the you know nicer um more kind of affordable um places for folks to live in live in our community.

Um I mean we talked about Weatherstone before, but I think that's true of of um of uh coven Kesentrice especially and um and then down farther as well.

And I think the you know, I suspect we would be having a lot less um debate about this if the proposal was for a um something that looked a development that looked a lot more like the Weatherstone or Kensington Trace or Coventry back in there.

Um but that's not what we have before us.

So um what I will say is that um in response to what you were talking about, some of these older developments, the folks at Weatherstone have actually spent quite a bit of money recently to to try and address stormwater on their property.

So they're you know that and that and they are not a you know a community that can just afford to spend millions of dollars.

So I think our communities are stepping up, and so I think we just should ask when we build these new communities that they step up too.

So I would like to echo uh Councilmember Ryan's request that we see a analysis of how much water is going to be coming off of here and going to these um other properties over Weaver Dairy Road and elsewhere downstream, like we've been requested to um multiple times.

So that's the first thing.

Second thing I cannot uh um stress enough that I think there's goodwill um among the uh folks at Weatherstone.

I would just would ask that we you know when we're either the staff, if if if people at Weatherstone don't have the time to come out to a public hearing because they're all working very hard, um perhaps we should reach out to them.

And in fact, I would ask that the staff and the developer both reach out to them specifically to f to address their concerns, especially when we're changing buffers and that's and all that sort of thing.

So I I have multiple reservations about this project.

I look forward to seeing how it changes when we come back and what more information we can get.

Thanks.

Um Councilmember Sharp.

Similarly to Councilmember Searing, I'm really interested to see uh the answers to the things that have been raised tonight that you'll come back with to us next time and just to see sort of some um meaningful consideration of the concerns that have been raised.

Um for me, one of those that I'm really gonna be curious to find the answer to is how you propose to deal with the fact that we've just heard that you aren't going to be able to connect the multi-use path through Carroll Woods.

Um seems like it cuts the multi-use path off at the knees.

So I'm curious to find how that will develop.

Hopefully you have another plan in store.

Um yeah, so I'm just I think everybody's kind of said all of the lots of positives, lots of negatives, and I'm just curious to see how you incorporate those going forward.

Any other comments?

Okay.

Um I like the use.

Um I like the neighborhood retail.

I think we are desperately in need of those townhomes.

Um so I very much appreciate that component.

Um greenways are a critical part of our vision for this town.

Um and I am I'm disappointed to hear that Carol Woods uh stance on the greenway connection.

I don't understand where that's coming from, and I would like um if staff could explore more why um why a nonprofit and a community partner would not be engaged on our everywhere to everywhere greenway network.

Um I agree with the smaller first sale request.

Um I also think um less parking and unbundled makes a lot of sense for this site given that um it's being billed as being a quarter mile away from transit, so let's treat it like transit-oriented.

Um too would like to just make sure that any necessary construction management that isn't covered in our somewhat outdated process um can be looked at just to make sure that we're not missing opportunities.

Um I think my my biggest concern is the stormwater.

I don't think it's this property owner's responsibility to fix stormwater in the subwatershed.

However, I would like to understand what it looks like when this is piped into a system that doesn't seem to be working very well at the moment.

So I would like to understand what those impacts will look like.

And I would be very open to if that green strip is the piece where we could get better buffers and get better stormwater management and not be at such risk, then I would be happy to have you do stack townhomes or something else to uh have those units come over into the main area so as not to lose the units that that you've proposed.

I um I will say that uh I would like for you to proactively speak to the neighbors.

Um I hope you won't wait for them to come to you.

I think um we get better outcomes and I think we come into these hearings better prepared when you know you've had a chance to hear from folks.

Um I think I'll say finally that um I really appreciate coming uh folks coming out to speak.

Um I do have a really hard time when there's a question asked.

Um if we vote for this project, who do we work for?

The people up here work for very little pay and we take time away from our families.

And in 2025, I would really appreciate it if we don't give public servants a hard time just because we may not agree.

We are doing this for the benefit of the community as a whole, and we can't take into account the needs of everybody, and that's hard.

And it doesn't mean that we don't care about all you in the room, it just means that there are other people out there too.

So please continue to come speak to us.

Please come and be respectful and understand that we work hard and we make hard choices and somebody is not going to be happy with our choices.

But it doesn't mean that we work for developers or that we take money or that we're on the take.

So please come and engage with us in ways that we try to be respectful to you all as well.

Okay.

Next.

Mary Anderson, do you mind if I make just a quick clarification around um some of the stormwater issues that were raised?

Please do.

Um I I apologize if it was um because of how I may have mischaracterized what it means for some of the stormwater to kind of um discharge into the town's I would say quote unquote system in the area.

Um the so the the green square, the dog leg um was the the area that discharges into um town uh sanitary sewers or stormwater sewers, excuse me.

Um it is not untreated stormwater that would discharge into this the town's stormwater conveyance.

Um because the town system in that area is not designed to treat or in any other way, you know, control the the rate or volume of stormwater.

Uh those things, right?

Treating for water quality, for volume, for the rate of flow have to be done on site.

Um and that's what that southern stormwater control measure, the pond closest to Weaver Dairy would be responsible for doing.

Um the only thing that's discharged into the town system is the controlled discharge from that stormwater control measure.

Um the way all of these measures work is that they hold water for a certain amount of time and then discharge it more slowly after a uh a rainfall event.

And so it's that the controlled discharge that would be um again, kind of routed into the store uh the town system in that area.

Right.

But but the we only control it to a certain level of storm, correct?

And we don't control, we control the rate that it flows off, but if there's a big event but that more water can go into the system, right?

Eventually all the water that comes in there goes out if we have changed the hydrology so that there's more water coming off the site, more water will flow off.

We just control it to a certain level.

Exactly.

Yeah.

We control it up to the 100-year storm, um, which is kind of a dynamic standard that NOAA updates from time to time.

And we can make it such that we don't have a repeat of what is happening at Philcom.

Um at the time, we had um Scott Burroughs to share with us that there is a retention pond there, but it does not capture.

It doesn't retain anything.

So what I'm curious about is how do we not make that mistake again with our with the developer?

This developer didn't do that, but how do we ensure that that doesn't happen again?

Yeah.

Um we can we can ensure that you know the we can ensure outcomes.

We can ensure the review that the development goes through.

Right.

Um the the pond closest to Weaver area and all the other ponds on this site will get a very thorough review in addition to the review that's already happened about their kind of proposed um performance, um, and then making sure that they're designed to meet our very stringent standards in that area.

Right.

So can we can we will you all be able to look at the stormwater basin in Vilcom to see what went wrong there?

That's what I'm asking is can we make sure that we don't I'm not saying you can't you will avoid everything, but can we not repeat that mistake?

Yeah, it's it it's difficult.

That's a different site, different project.

Um we can follow up with Stonewater staff about that.

Um I will I don't want to give you an idea that it's going to be.

We will make sure that this site is based off of the grading and the topography and what would works best on this site, and we can give you more information on the stormwater analysis when we come back to the next hearing.

That's probably the best I could do tonight.

Um I don't want to make tie this too much to uh a totally separate project.

That wouldn't be appropriate.

But we can we can do some reject research and get back to you on that.

Is that helpful?

Fair enough.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Ready for a motion.

You ready for a motion?

Uh Councilmember Nollert had something quick.

I'll be very brief because uh some of you in here know me personally and and know my character, and and so does Councilmember Ryan and we're we're friends, but I wanted to respond to the comment about um not caring about flooding downstream with an anecdote.

Um after Chantal hit, I spent most of every day that week helping people move things out of their flooded residences.

Um I don't cry very often, but I cried every every day that day.

Um is pretty emotionally overwhelming.

I want to be clear to you that I do care about anybody who's getting flooded, I care about the potential of anybody getting flooded.

As the mayor said, I'm trying to figure out how to make the right decision for the whole community.

And and again, I know my colleague knows that, but some of us have never met, so I do want to be clear to you that uh I do care about those things, and I have direct personal experience uh with that um just so that it's clear.

And I did not mean to cast dispersions on that.

So Councilmember Ryan.

Yeah, uh I'd like to move that we continue the hearing until October 22nd.

Move by Councilmember Ryan, seconded by Councilmember Miller Fushi.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, please say nay.

Motion is unanimous.

Okay.

Um item number seven is to open a legislative hearing for a conditional zoning application at 115 Chapel Point Road, and Charmika Harrell is here to walk us through.

Or wait, what is it?

C C laptop.

I'm gonna ask that folks take their conversations out to the lobby so we can continue our meeting.

Thank you.

Good evening, uh, Mayor and Council.

I'm Sharonika Harrell with the planning department.

Um the applicant for the 115 Chapel Point Road Conditional Zoning Application will give their presentation first, and then I will follow up with staff's presentation.

Uh could you hold for one second?

Can we please vacate council chambers if you're not here for this item?

Thank you.

Welcome, Mr.

Jewell.

And thank you.

Good evening again, Mayor, members of the council, um, Mr.

Manager and Ms.

Attorney.

Again, I'm Dan Jewell with Thomas and Hutton.

Um here assisting uh client Adam Golden with Northwood Raven with what we're calling the Caraway 3 residential.

To be clear, this was not part of the original Garaway uh village project, but it is a site that has been back and forth in ownership for many years.

Um and uh Northwood Raven now has control of this, and they'd very much like to do uh sort of uh an extension of Caraway Village and add some housing types that aren't currently allowed or provided in Caraway Village.

Quickly, this is a an older aerial image looking from the southeast, sort of from uh Eubanks Road over toward uh Martin Luther King Jr.

Boulevard.

It shows the existing apartments.

This the site is actually fairly large.

You can see this outlined area here, mostly all wooded now, a lot of R C D and floodplain.

And we are concentrating this proposal on this lighter green portion of the site, and that is it.

Looking at it from the above, you can see it's a it's an interesting shape, clipped a little bit, mostly along Interstate 40, uh, abuts the existing Caraway Village on the south and also property mostly controlled by the Caraway Village ownership on the western side.

Uh I think what's interesting is this this image actually shows some newer things that have been added to Caraway Village or being added that weren't on this photo when it was taken.

That includes a uh uh a very nice park in the center, a gathering area, there's a uh a bank that's under construction right now, uh, there's a medical office building that's going to be uh going up in the Wendy's that was recently completed.

This shows the proposed new residential uh units in the context of Caraway Village.

And I think what's uh important here is to see we have these red, two red circles, which are walking times, a two-minute walk and a five-minute walk, and you can see that the uh the commercial portions of Karaou Village, the new parks that have been built, the dog park, uh there's an area where there's actually a food truck program there now on a regular basis.

Those are all within a five-minute walk of this new part of the project.

On top of that, we're going to be connecting it all with trails and greenways and things of that nature, uh, including building uh a continuation of the Greenway Trail along I-40 that would connect into this uh direct sidewalk access up to the commercial, and of course a sidewalk that would connect over to the existing parking line ride lot on the west side of Caraway Village, and we hope the future uh UNC hockey facility.

Uh won't belabor this, but it is in one of the uh the focus areas on the complex comp plan update that was done a few years ago, and we're providing the density and the mix of units that are called for in that update.

Uh I want to take you back to uh earlier this year when you reviewed the concept plan here.

It was fairly well received.

A couple of comments we heard were can you make it denser?

Don't hear that very often in Chapel Hill, so thank you for that.

Uh can we modify the stormwater facility so not as much of it is impacting the outer zone of the resource conservation district?

And can you be a little more uh deliberate in creating a community gathering space within here?

And uh we'll talk about how we've done that in a minute.

So, what you see on this slide now is where we've ended up.

One of the main things that we're able to do to increase the density is we got rid of those single family houses.

Uh that just seemed a product type that uh folks weren't quite as enamored with.

So instead, we've been able to put more apartments and more townhouses.

Uh I would like to add that these these apartments are going to be very small.

They're gonna be, I'm I'm not sure what the definition of micro apartments are, but you know, they're gonna be in the 500, 600 square foot range, maybe even smaller, something like that.

As I said, we're connecting that multi-use path.

We were able to increase the density by about over 30 percent by getting rid of the uh the single-family homes with actually a very similar impact footprint within the land area.

Uh we are uh managing the stormwater to a hundred-year storm event.

Um, and just to be clear, uh this stormwater drainage all goes to the north and underneath Interstate 40.

I think it's uh old the Old Field Creek uh, so there's no there are no neighborhoods uh downstream of this stormwater management, which was an issue on the last one, as we know.

Uh we do have the good connectivity to public transportation.

Uh and then very much this wanted to be uh feel like it's part of the Caraway Village community and be able to enjoy all those amenities there, the parks, the commercial spaces, things of that nature, and bring the bring the uh uh the community together.

Uh and we we are creating, I'm not sure if you're you can see my uh cursor here, but we have created a very purposeful uh gathering space in this area, and you'll feel notice the way that this lines up between the townhomes there, between the town homes there.

We very much wanted to bring the feeling of the natural areas of the site up into the uh developed portion of the site, and we very much are going to treat the stormwater uh pond as an amenity with trees and overlook a gazebo, something like that, vegetation, things of that nature, not just a uh a big mud puddle as the old term was for the for the BMPs.

Uh we always go over the complete community stuff.

Uh we can uh you can ask questions about that later, but we we think we hit all of the buttons for complete communities in terms of the housing types, uh strong affordable housing proffer at uh 10 percent of the market rate units at 60 and 80 percent AMI green strategies, placemaking, and walkability.

Again, to reiterate what we heard at the concept plan was make it denser.

We increase the density 33 percent, support for smaller unit sizes, so again, those those are going to be small apartments.

Uh move the pond out of the RCD.

We've been able to shrink the footprint of the pond within the RCD by about 15 percent, but still we were able to increase the density by 35 percent.

We hope that's a uh uh a uh acceptable trade-off to you, the uh in the community open space.

I would like to touch on parking.

Our parking ratio is very low for the apartments.

Um we actually have slightly fewer parking spaces than there are units.

Again, the accessibility to public transportation, the park and ride lot, and we hope that you know many of the folks that live in these units uh choose to live here because it's connected by the Greenway Trail to the rest of Chapel Hill, and they're gonna be biking and using public transportation and that sort of thing.

And the uh the parking for the townhouses will actually be underneath the townhouses.

So the only surface parking will be some uh on-street parking spaces uh within the community design.

And I think you're all familiar with this, but the architectural context will be very much in keeping with the rest of Caraway Village.

And here are some images of uh, you know, not pretty projects elsewhere in the universe.

This is actually what uh Northwood Raven has been uh building at Caraway Village.

So that uh concludes our presentation, and uh we'll hang around to uh answer any questions that you and the public might have.

So thank you for your time.

Okay.

Uh hello again.

Um so I will give uh brief staff presentation for this application.

Um this slide just gives you its narrow image of where the site is.

It's located between I-40 and Ubanks north of the existing Caraway Village development.

Um staff have reviewed the application, and our recommendation is for council to consider approving um the project subject to the conditions and ordinance A.

Um again the application is to rezone the property from community commercial uh conditional zoning district and office institutional one conditional zoning district to residential six conditional zoning district.

It is a multifamily residential development of up to 170 units.

Um of the total number of market rate units will be affordable and the affordable units will be located in the apartment buildings.

Um residential six accommodates the proposed land uses for this development and all site specific standards and modifications to regulations are detailed in the ordinance.

Um we think the project has a lot of elements that meet the complete community considerations.

Um it's located on an invil site near a transit corridor, and it's um next to the Ubanks Park and Ride lot.

Multifamily use is consistent with the use for that area shown on the future land use map.

Um the applicant plans to continue the multi-use path on that starts on Cara Waste project throughout this development.

The development is also concentrated on the land south of the stream which minimizes impacts to the stream and the forested land on the north north of the stream and the applicant has also made sustainability and climate action commitments in the ordinance.

Planning commission reviewed the application and they found that it's consistent with the comprehensive plan and they voted to recommend approval.

And so tonight you're asked to review the application open the hearing and continue the hearing to October 22nd.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Council questions?

Councilmember's hearing followed by council member sharp?

I went for the applicant I know we've we've talked about this previously and you know you the property between the um northern um limit of where you're building and the and the um freeway is um you know it contains a stream and steep slopes and and is actually I think it's one of the most and then part of it it joins up to the town um property as well and um through Oldfield Creek and it's um quite something back there.

I know it's in the RCD it's difficult to build.

Could you just talk about future plans for that property as it you know given the restraints on it and everything.

What's the I'll introduce Adam Golden again.

Yes Adam Golden Mayor Council members uh nice to see you again um so right now we have no plans to develop that property um as Dan pointed out the the stream that flows through it's a perennial stream it's actually as physically beautiful as you pointed out serves as a perfect natural buffer between I know there's a lot of concern we are this property is close to I-40 thankfully we sit much further back than I think some of the other projects that have been looked at um tonight but um you know noise those are all real concerns and I think keeping that buffer if you look at the property there's a small piece of property on the very kind of northern northwestern um let me see if I can get to it um I don't like the whole the area so the kind of the far north it's really the northwestern tip we have that big power easement there's a tiny bit of property that is actually outside of the R C D but sits between I-40 there's no way to access it so I think realistically there's no plans to develop this property we we had a just a follow up for a second they um there was a our South Creek development had sort of similar it's much bigger but it has a similar situation where they concentrated which I really like the um you know the development nearer the um the top part of the property but they put a conservation easement on the um the other part of the property since they couldn't they but we're not going to be able to develop it is very difficult would you all be willing to consider doing something like that I think it's something we could consider uh we've looked at that I think we'd have to consider it there we've looked at it at times and it's not as straightforward and simple as as actually I thought when we looked at it it has to be you have to find a group that accepts the easement and will maintain it.

There are some costs and things associated with it.

I think we could evaluate it.

We'd be willing to consider it okay.

I think it's tough to develop I know I would be more than willing to talk with you I think there are some groups who would be who would be willing to you know make those sorts of commitments and you know I can't speak for them but um I think it would be great.

And it would be a great amenity for folks who are living there because it's you know it's just so beautiful back there.

All right thanks.

I I'll look forward to um I'm you know I don't know if I can help at all but I'll try uh council member sharp followed by councilmember Barry.

Um you alluded to the space that your project has um relative to the one book that came before it between you know in that buffer can you just let us know how big that buffer is in the kind of I guess it's sort of like the southeast portion that gets closest to 40 sort of like how close does it get yeah I think good question.

I don't have a scale on this but I would think that the closest proposed new unit is at least a hundred and fifty feet from I40 wouldn't you say Adam I think I think at least and then um there will be a because the land all drops off to the north the um the area of these new units will be fairly substantially lower than the existing uh caraway village backside up there.

Um the um the area of these new units will be fairly substantially lower than the existing uh Caraway village backside up there.

So whether it'll be a slope or a wall or whatever, so there'll be sort of a natural separation uh between that.

Although we don't want to make it feel like it's two different communities.

We want them to talk to each other.

So there might be like a retaining wall or something between the existing portion and this.

Quite quite probably.

Okay.

All right.

Thank you.

Councilmember Barry.

Followed by Councilmember Ryan.

I can't remember if I asked you this when I met with you.

The you have fewer parking spaces than units.

Um for the affordable units will how are you treating that for those who have vehicles?

So the the the question, did you hear the response that uh Ernie gave and also I think we gave the same response on the other one.

The uh you could speak in the mic, please.

Yeah, yes, I'm sorry.

Um whether the are we unbundling the parking on this one?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So go go go go from there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the parking here I mean our market here for a project that does not have a private garage is that it's unbundled.

So parking is part of the rent.

So anyone who rents here will have a parking space.

Um one clarify clarifying thing, and I think this maybe stemmed from when we actually encourage.

I'm sorry.

Mr.

Golden.

I thought Mr.

Jewel told us that there would be fewer parking spaces than units.

That's where I'm gonna clarify that next.

So I think that actually stemmed from the success we had in increasing the density on this project.

We uh the the market requirement um that really any apartment project needs today is one space per bedroom.

And uh that's right in line with what the LUMO kind of ordinance is.

Um so we we actually will be we'll need at least one per unit.

Um a lot of our units are gonna be smaller one bedrooms, so they inherently will be one per unit.

But one per bedroom is really what we need.

That also actually accounts for a little bit of extra parking for visitors, uh like on the weekends.

Okay.

So you're actually going to have more parking spaces than units.

Technically, yes.

Um the one, the piece that Dan mentioned that I think is worthy of note, I think for the entire council, because I know that um the goal is less surface parking, is that we have 48 townhomes now.

Um the townhomes are parked.

The first level of the townhome has uh parking enclosed within it.

And then there is uh living and dining above that, and there's a bedroom above that.

So it's kind of stacked, but the parking is internal.

So it's uh the most efficient way to to apply it.

Okay.

And then that walking path that you have around, it says two-minute and five-minute walk.

Are you saying to access that pathway as opposed to to walk that pathway, correct?

I think it's to reach.

It's it's uh it's a two-minute or five-minute walk to reach the things that are within that radius.

Maybe I didn't understand the question.

No, that's correct.

Yeah.

You you answered it for me because I looked at this with someone else.

Um then thought, wait, okay.

They're talking about accessing it.

I just wanted to make sure.

Sure.

I hate to assume.

That's it.

Thank you.

Councilmember Ryan.

Um I appreciate that you're doing the smaller apartment size, because we're very much trying to get smaller units.

Um what kind what size are you looking at for the townhomes?

Townhomes are likely three bedroom units.

Um again, a very efficient floor plan to get this much density on.

It's our most efficient townhome plan currently.

So we eighteen hundred, twenty four hundred.

Uh look at my colleague.

It's very deep in our architecture.

Um probably the 18.

You'll need to come to the mic so the people, all the masses of people watching on television can hear you.

Yeah, just m just if you can give me an idea of the square footage.

Um probably about 17.

It's it's probably in a 17 to 1800.

17 to 1800 foot range.

That's great.

Yeah, that that's small-ish.

We have people coming in at 28, and that's not small.

Um, I just to clarify your detail on the affordability, there will be no affordable units in the town homes.

Correct.

And 10 percent in the apartments split somehow between 65 and 80.

50-50.

Okay.

This is the uh this is yeah, this is a uh a program that we've done on previous projects, and we work very closely with um uh Sarah, Emily, and Maggie on staff to come up with us.

Okay, and your town homes are for sale, correct?

Yeah.

There you go.

All everything at the project is a rental.

Okay, thank you.

I just wanted to follow up when you said that each unit has um a parking space.

How is that unbundled?

Or what's the unbundled component?

So it it's effectively if you live at the community, there we have allocated uh space for that unit.

So um there's no extra fee for it.

I think if you I think the I get confused by bundling and unbundling, but we are we are not charging extra for parking space.

That would be bundled.

So it's so that's bundled.

It's it's it's effectively.

Because unbundled would mean that some people could choose not to have a space and pay less.

Then I guess it is it's that.

Great.

Just making sure I understand.

Thank you.

Um there members of the public wishing to speak.

Do not have anyone.

Great.

Uh council, back to you.

Um Councilmember McCullough, followed by Councilmember Barry.

Followed by Councilmember Ryan.

Um thanks for putting in more density.

I'm very excited about that, although I don't really consider 1700 square feet to be a small three bedroom units, uh uh like some of the other things, it would be nice to see some smaller, smaller units.

Um I understand that the stormwater pond sort of needs to unpinge on the RCD.

I want to make sure that it's got very good habitat and then there's extreme care taken with the sedimentation, that it's densely revegetated and that the trees there are uh put plenty of trees along the edges to help um to help make sure that there isn't sedimentation.

Since there is a creek right at the bottom of that slope, we want very much to protect that.

Um please make sure there's plugs in the garages so that people can uh charge their e-bikes.

Um I'd like to see more trees if possible in the interior green spaces and along the sidewalks.

I'm a little uh a little sad for that that far right apartment building because it doesn't have a nice meuse uh next to it.

So it would be nice if they had a few extra trees to to look at out their windows.

Umservation easement.

Um that's all.

Thank you.

Councilmember Barry, followed by Councilmember Ryan.

I'm not sure how I missed it.

Um that the affordable housing would only be offered, and it's written right here in black and white, and the multifamily buildings.

Those multifamily buildings are the small, small apartments, right?

Um I would like to see how many townhomes are you providing.

We have 48.

I would like to see some offered to affordable housing.

Think about a single mom with three children trying to share a three-bedroom apartment.

Who could use that who would love to be in that area?

Um the only people who could afford to live the only affordable housing that you're offering are for singles or couples.

You're not offering any for families.

What I can say is uh is I think every developer on the planet knows we are at an incredibly difficult time right now to move any project forward.

Uh construction costs, then I'm sure this is things everyone has heard, but construction costs have not come down.

Um the offer we've done here, we are stretching as far as we can to make it.

And I I say that with all respect is that I wish we could do more, but we are straining our financial pro forma as it is.

Um in the Caraway village, um where else do you have affordable housing?

So at Caraway, the original, we we still have there is a parcel of the land.

You can actually see it on here.

It's the the undeveloped parcel of land just.

Correct.

Yeah, we have I could give you the long history.

I've been working on Caraway for more than a decade now.

But uh Yeah.

So this is really troubling for me.

And I'll I will listen to my colleagues, but that really concerns me.

And I'm sorry that I'm just now catching that detail.

Thank you.

Councilmember Ryan.

Um just to say in general, yay, thank you for the increased density and for the thoughtful changes you made.

Um I just have that as an example of concept plans that work.

So I know that we're gonna be debating that and talking about what their status is.

But I think for for applicants that want to go through that, I think it can be really beneficial and help a project early in the phase stages before it gets set.

So just a little editorializing there.

Um but yes, I like the changes that you have made.

I share concerns about the affordable housing.

It would be useful.

I understand about proformas, and we're trying to get some more education about how things have changed and where costs really are.

It would be helpful if you could just put your heads together with your finance people and see if there are options where maybe maybe there's fewer units or there's fewer units at this, so that we can have a townhome unit or two.

So if you could if you could see come back with some options uh that would work for you, that would be very helpful.

And um anything you can do to minimize those R C D impacts with the pond would be great.

Thank you.

Okay.

Um I need a well I I think I agree with the comments, and I'm not gonna belabor.

So I need a motion to continue the legislative hearing to October 22nd.

So moved.

Moved by Councilmember Ryan, seconded by council member Barry.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, please say nay.

Motion is unanimous.

Thank you.

Um item eight uh is to open the legislative hearing for a conditional zoning application at 5640 Old Chapel Hill Road.

And Josh Mayo is our presenter.

All right, good evening, Mayor and Council.

Uh I will hand it first to the developer to present, um, and then I'll come back with the staff presentation.

Just one moment here.

Welcome back, Mr.

It's been a long time.

It's been hours.

It's been hours.

Uh Ernie Brown, as you guys know, this isn't uh one of the smaller little project that we're working on that's on Old Chapel Hill Road.

Um I can show you in the future how it kind of all ties in.

It's really kind of like the last piece.

I believe it was back in June.

You guys heard Zom come through that has the pieces that are next to Chapel Hill Crossings, which is the Hugh Street side, 5500.

Then Zom is coming in on White Oak Road, and then kind of connecting.

So Zom is tying in to me on the apartments, which I'll show you guys later, and we're tying into their project that you guys approved back in September or no, not September, sorry, um in June.

This right now we've got it laid out um very simplistic as a you know think of these as just kind of you know triangle boxes that we're drawing out right now.

I don't have a home builder yet in tow, so I can't speak to square footages or sizes or elevations.

Um it's basically just a small little town home project.

What you're seeing from there, the reason why the range is so big is because we want the flexibility if if stacked town homes become an option.

Uh currently there are only two home builders in this region that are actually doing stack town homes.

Um but if more start tying into it, you know, we wanted the ability to have that as of some flexibility for if stacked homes work.

That's why the range is as wide as it is.

Um these are the way that most of them are doing, uh most of the individu home builders that I've talked to, every town home does have under underneath parking as well.

Uh we've got this design to where you see that you'll see uh a green courtyard space that's actually working as underground stormwater uh management, and then you see a uh retention pond that is also uh sized at 100 years storm as well.

Let's see here.

So this way as well, what we did is we worked with a town uh on doing the connection points.

As you guys know, this the two sides that I have under contract currently has a uh an old street that was actually a Cowan Boulevard that kind of bifurcated it.

Uh we met with Josh and C D OT to discuss like you know if we could continue that road to tie into Old Chapel Hill Road there.

Uh because of the close proximity to East Lakeview, uh they weren't amenable to that.

So we moved it to the other side of the project, which then would butt up to where uh Zom, if you guys can remember, we're doing the uh townhomes on that side.

This is a little bit of a grayscale to kind of like give you guys you know, so you can see how all the projects are kind of tying in together.

You got DR's project that went through back in 23 uh with me that's at the north side, I believe they were calling it gateway at the time.

You had the two projects that I um worked on, the Hugh Street side, which is on the south side of Old Chapel Hill Road, 5500, which is the apartments.

You can see where the stream is kind of going in there, and then we laid in Zom's footprint that they have to show you how you know our apartments that we have at 5500, their apartments that they have on the uh side of White Oak Road, and then where they're proposing four rent townhomes, we're tying in with four uh for sale townhomes as well in this last little leg.

And I believe that's it.

Uh short and sweet.

All right, good evening, Mayor and Council.

I'll present for staff on this project located at 4645 640 Old Chapel Hill Road, also known as the East Lakeview Town Homes.

This project is proposed on a number of parcels at the corner of Lakeview Drive and Old Chapel Hill slash old Durham Road.

The name changes at the county line.

Uh but this project is primarily proposed in Durham County.

This project does fit within the park line east village framework that council has seen before.

Um for context, the projects and buildings shown in solid colors have already been approved by town council and are under construction.

Um this project is located within the red box.

Uh zooming in a little bit more, you can see it connects to TAS learned uh PowerPoint animations.

It's like Jazz Cans.

Very impressive.

Uh zooming in a little bit more, you can see that it connects to the project proposed by Zom at 11 White Oak to both the east and the north uh with road connections uh and it is currently adjacent to Lakeview Drive and several parcels to the north that are currently uh farm ponds.

Staff's recommendation uh is that this project meets the comprehensive plan in the ordinance and is aligned with council's values around the complete community framework.

Uh the project summary is that the applicant is requesting to rezone from the existing R1 zoning to an R6 C C D zoning uh with up to 76 per units of townhomes and or stack townhomes, as they mentioned with the flexibility.

Uh they are proposing 15% affordable with half at the 65% AMI and half at the 80% AMI meeting the inclusionary zoning ordinance.

Uh this project does have a number of connections, both pedestrian and road, to the adjacent development proposals and is located in the north U.S.

15501 focus area.

As a reminder about conditional zoning, it allows for modifications uh and site-specific standards.

The requested zoning district accommodates the uses and density while the development scale uh includes some modifications to LUMO standards in the draft ordinance.

Uh viewed through the holistic lens of the complete community strategy.

This project meets the town's strategy for growth.

Uh no single issue should be considered in isolation.

The planning commission reviewed this project and found that it was consistent with the comprehensive plan.

Uh and they recommended approval without the applicant's requested tree cover modification as they reviewed the landscape plans and believe this project can meet the LUMA standard of 30%.

Uh so tonight we'd ask that you open the hearing, receive public comment, uh provide feedback to the applicant and continue the hearing to November 12th, 2025.

Thank you.

Uh council questions.

Councilmember McCullough, maybe.

Okay.

Um the graphic shows that there's a 10-foot buffer all the way around, but the text says that two of the sides have only a five foot buffer and the fence.

Um the wall, and I'm not sure which is correct.

The the graphic that shows 10 feet all around is on page 389.

I don't have page 389, so I can't pull that up.

Uh you know, we don't have a fence.

We do have a we do have a retention wall.

That's what I meant.

The wall.

Okay.

And a lot of that has to do with we're tying in with Zom, right?

So Zom is meeting me at 5500 because we were much further along and that one's already at C C P.

So now that they're working on their site plan, they're tying into me at 5500.

We're trying now to tie into them on this site.

And so where they're at on their elevation on their road and where we're tying in, or where if we didn't have it, if we weren't builting it up, we'd have about a six-foot drop from their street to our street.

And that doesn't work real well on cars.

So it doesn't.

We had to we had to build that up a little bit.

And so that is what's kind of causing that kind of retention wall, which is then you know adding into the buffer.

The retaining wall.

The retaining wall on the roads is what's the same.

Can you point point to it on the so it's on the north side?

Yes, it's your east-west connection.

It's your east-west connection that's coming off of uh old Chapel Hill Road, and then it's also that north-south connection that's going down.

And if you remember, and I can pull up, I can show you Zom's project, which would give a little uh it's not colored in.

What they have currently right here is basically just a parking lot.

And so, yeah, we're not I mean, we're buffering for a parking lot.

And then up here, you know, that's where they have their dog park and all that stuff.

So we're I mean we're kind of we're not buffering into anybody.

So that's kind of the way we kind of have it done there.

A lot of it has to just to do with with road infrastructure.

Oh, okay.

Um I just suggest that you correct the the graphic on page 389.

Thanks.

I had a question, I think about the same area.

Um we we got an email with concerns from an adjacent neighbor who um wrote about the proposal to reduce the buffer next to their home to five feet and build the retaining wall, um, and noting that their home is close to the property line, so this would feel imposing.

So can you um talk to us about that modification and maybe other possible solutions to ease the transition there?

So I don't know whose home that would really be because if you again if you look at it, what's what's going on if you look at my north-south road, which is the the one that ties in old Chapel Hill Road, that's Zom as the neighbor, right?

And so the east-west, that's also Zom.

That's where they're putting in their dog park.

That's where they're talking about moving the uh the old gas station or the barbecue place and then moving up there.

So I don't know whose house I'm really encroaching on.

Because I mean, because I looked at it because I I got that comment back too, and I kind of stared at it and I'm I'm I was like kind of confused because it all of this property kind of basically is the north of it and to the east of it is Zom.

So if it was Zom that was complaining about me, then we're gonna have to have a conversation.

I don't think it was Zom.

Um Josh, do you know what that could be?

Uh yes, let me pull up, let's see.

So Zom does control uh every parcel to the east of this right-of-way called Cowan Boulevard.

Uh there's only the one single family home here.

My understanding um is that for this portion uh the applicant is keeping the 10-foot buffer, the modification is for the northern portion over here where they do need to tie into the road and build a retaining wall.

I will double check and make sure we have that uh fully clarified when we come back.

Yeah, I think if yeah, when you come back, could if you could just make sure that we're we're making sure there's a good transition there to the single family home.

But I don't know what it is.

Um can you can you explain the parking umber?

Yeah, so there's there's a little bit of double counting, right?

So it the way that it was counted, is it's being counted is that you're getting a parking spaces that are tucked under, and because of the driveway up into it is 18 feet, they're also counting that as parking as well.

And then there's the overflow uh guest parking.

That's what's adding up all the numbers.

So you got the car, you got the car garages that are underneath the townhomes, and then the driveway.

So it's it's counting four parking spaces for one town home.

I see.

So this isn't really over parking.

No, I mean, because I looked at the I again uh Josh sent me the comments that he he had received and I looked into it and we actually I reached out to the engineer that was there that because I was kind of confused too why that number was looking so high.

And then that's when he responded back to me that it was a little bit of double counting because it's driveway.

Okay, thank you.

Are there members of the public wishing to speak?

Uh back to you, council.

Councilmember McCullough, I'm happy to see that you're planning to use grass papers for the driveways.

I'm happy to see that you're good planning to use grass papers for the driveways.

Oh and um I would like to see 30 percent tree canopy.

Um also with the 30 percent tree canopy.

Thank you for providing missing middle housing.

It's something that's gonna be very useless.

This is a perfect place for it.

I do want to just make sure that that neighbor is uh something terrible is not happening right next to his house.

So if you can come back and clarify that, that would be great.

Apparently it's 95 East Lakes Lakes View Drive.

Um Councilmember Barry.

I also want to add that I support the Planning Commission's recommendation to keep the 30.

I would also like to keep the the 30 percent tree canopy.

Um really simple, actually.

Uh so we were at basically 40 percent with our original site plan, and then when the infrastructure was asked upon us by the staff to add that additional leg and the way that we were tying in versus having a driveway, that's what pushed us in.

We're actually at 30 percent now with the current way that it's set.

However, to get to the 30 percent, we're gonna have to put trees along the uh the retaining wall.

And as we all know, tree roots grow out, and so what it'll do is and eventually it'll end up putting pressure on the retaining wall, and then the retaining wall will fail.

So that's what we're basically the reason why we're not there.

It was we were exceeding the tree cover.

We then met the staff, met with staff and changed the site plan to fit in the infrastructure that they wanted, which brought us to where we were very tight.

Then when we had to put in the retaining wall where we would have had trees, or like, do you really want to put trees up against the retaining wall?

That's why we're asking for that reduction.

Thank you.

Can we not put more still on the we can explore it?

I know that we're we are designing it to be a retention pond that will actually you know hold water and you know have furniture, but I would have to ask, I would have to look in that to see if that would actually work.

Yeah, because local water so could you bring that back next time?

I will absolutely do that.

Thank you.

Um I need a motion to continue the hearing to November 12th.

So moved.

Second.

Uh moved by Councilmember Miller Fushi, seconded by Oh, really?

You can have it?

I'm not sure.

Sorry.

So moved.

Who was it?

Let's just take it all.

Oh, was it uh do you want to say move?

I heard it, I heard somebody.

Uh motioned by council member sharp.

Second.

Seconded by council member Barry.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, please say nay.

Motion is unanimous.

Before you go anywhere, council.

Don't go anywhere.

Don't well no, I have more.

Uh before you go to close session, our attorney has asked for a quick moment to get us to approve something about an opioid settlement.

And yes, so this will be familiar to you because you've done this before for me.

So thank you at the last minute.

Over the summer, we got a request another request from Josh Stein's office, the attorney general's office to help the state properly join another um phase of the opioid settlements this time with uh Purdue Pharma and the Sackler family and some other secondary manufacturers of opioids.

Um there's a deadline coming up for the look for the local governments to join so that the state can properly join so we can get all that money.

And so Orange County would would stand to get a few hundred thousand dollars from this if we if we cooperate.

So I'm asking for the council to vote vote to authorize the manager to join this, and I have to read the resolution to you.

Um and then we'll get it to the mayor to sign if you vote yes, and um so indulge me for just a moment, and then I will just need a motion to approve the resolution and we can be done with it.

Is that okay?

All right.

So be it resolved that the town of Chapel Hill Town Council hereby authorizes the town manager or town attorney to execute on behalf of the town the necessary documents to enter into opioid settlement agreements with the secondary opioid manufacturer defendants to execute the supplemental agreement for additional funds number three, um, and to approve the bankruptcy plan and settlement agreements related to Purdue Pharma LP and the Sackler family, and to provide such documents to rubris, the implementation man administrator, subject to a pre-audit by uh uh the town's finance officer who's right across the the way from us over there, and if applicable, um approval as to form and legality by the town's attorney.

Uh so uh if I could ask for a motion.

Thank you.

Second.

Moved by council.

Moved by councilmember Barry, seconded by councilmember Miller Fushi.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, please say nay.

Motion is unanimous.

I'll get that resolution to the man.

Thank you.

We would that resolution to the mayor's desk, and then the manager will um execute the uh actual agreement to um join the settlement.

Great.

Thank you for that.

Thank you.

Mayor Pro Tem Ryan, will you meet read us into closed session, please?

I will.

I move the council go into closed session as authorized by North Carolina General Statutes GS 143-318.11A3, 143-318.11A6, and 143-318.11A5 to discuss topics related to personnel, attorney privilege, and real estate acquisition.

Second.

Move by Council Member Ryan, seconded by councilmember Barry.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, please say nay.

Motion is unanimous.

Let's head over across and meeting adjourned.