So why don't we begin?

And I'm looking for my no yep.

So shall we do roll call?

Wes.

I'm here.

Chuck.

Here.

Libby.

Here.

John.

Here.

Jeff.

Eric.

Mike.

I'm here.

Okay.

And let's see.

The next thing on the agenda is our.

I don't have the agenda, but minutes from the last meeting.

Yeah.

Uh let me sorry.

Let me get the agenda pulled.

I can pull it up.

I was just rushing to get the okay.

Thomas, we're good with the agenda we have.

Um, so our agenda is to have a visit by the new town manager, who I don't see yet, but um Josh, do you know is he?

You haven't heard that he's not coming, do you?

Have you?

No.

Uh just checking.

Um let me look at my email since I came straight from another meeting to make sure I didn't receive any yes.

I think while we're discussing, I can pull up the minutes if folks have any questions about them.

Yeah.

Um, I do not have any indication that he's not coming.

So um, okay.

Um so this was from the last meeting, and Jeff went ahead and sent a note to the council explaining his uh his vote.

Um anybody have any comments on the agenda?

I mean, on the well, all right.

First of all, anybody um want to change our agenda for the day?

We have um it's gonna be a really short meeting if Ted doesn't show up.

Uh uh, we can talk about the fact that Wes is leaving us and we need a new um a new uh member, PC member, but I think that's it, but anyway, let's we will talk about that in a second.

So uh all in favor of approving the agenda?

Say yes or raise your hand.

Okay.

And um let's go to the minutes now.

Jash showed us the minutes.

Any comments?

I actually have something I may have caught um for that final vote.

Uh Chuck, did you abstain or did you abstain, Mike?

I abstained.

Okay.

I will fix that.

Let's not pass the minutes.

I've got to get that changed.

Sorry.

Finishing dinner.

Um trying to do everything all at the same time.

Okay.

Are there any uh announcements?

Okay, are there any petitions?

Now I know there's let's see who is in our in the uh I don't see him in attendees.

Okay, no, but um hey Taz.

Um okay.

So um our uh well two things that have come up that I will add to the agenda.

One is do we want to have an occasional meeting, like an end-of-the-year meeting in person?

Um we are gonna keep meeting online unless we elect to meet elsewhere, and I think what Josh said was was that the new police station is what would be open to us.

Yes, I think what we can definitely give y'all is the new police station conference room.

We can also do the library with the understanding that we've got to stick to an 8 p.m.

time limit.

Um if there are any other venues y'all would like to explore, please let me know.

Those are town venues that I know we could book um going forward.

Yeah, we've got some nice parks that we could meet at.

It might be a little chilly.

Meet in the evening in December in uh Southern Village Park or wherever.

Yeah, Jeff.

Josh, can I ask a question?

I know the council always usually sometimes holds there.

Um work sessions at the library.

Do those always end by eight?

Those do not.

Um I think council has the permission to stay past council or library closing hours.

I think council has the permission to stay past council for library closing hours.

Most other town events uh do not.

Okay.

So any um anybody want to propose anything?

Welcome, Ted.

I see that Ted is now joining us.

Let's wrap this uh up and then we can move on to our new business.

But anybody interested in an in-person December meeting.

I'd be happy to attend.

I'd be interested.

I'd be interested as well if it's the a little bit later in December.

Life has a foot surgery, so I gotta be close in the beginning of December, December 6th, which is that Friday, December 6th.

So if it's after that, a few days after that, that's possible for me for sure.

Idea.

Josh, you already we already agreed on what date we're gonna meet in December.

Yes, we have a meeting scheduled for December 2nd.

I will note this is likely to be a short agenda.

Staff only have two items for y'all that should go relatively quickly.

If y'all wanted to try the library, this might be the meeting to try it.

Okay.

That's uh and um Mike, does the second work for you?

Fantastic.

Is anybody have a problem on the second at the library?

Okay.

Uh quick show of hands if you're in favor.

Okay, opposed.

Okay.

All right.

Um Josh.

That'll be read.

Libby, were you trying to say something?

You're audio.

I think I'm on audio, right?

I may not I may not be able to attend for family reasons.

Um that shouldn't, I I like the idea of an in-person year-end meeting.

So okay.

All right.

Well, we'll do the second, and hopefully, Lim Libby, you can join us, but we'll understand if you can't.

All right, and Wes, that I think will be your last meeting.

So we will be celebrating you before you move on to the council.

You snuck it in before the third.

That's good.

Oh, is the third one?

I thought it was January, it's the third.

Okay.

Well, you you you better show up and like pass all those final planning commission dreams that you had been working on.

I'm gonna move to approve those minutes.

Okay, all right, very good.

So um welcome, Ted.

Really appreciate you joining us tonight.

Um we just wanted to have not a particularly long conversation with you, but thought it'd be a great opportunity to um introduce ourselves and talk about some of the things we've been working on, and then would love to hear from you just a little bit about your background and um with the um all of the municipalities you've worked in over the years.

Uh imagine that you are a great font of information of how commissions such as ours can be effective.

And so we would love to hear.

I'll give you some more specific questions in a moment, and then it's uh an open discussion.

So I've alerted all the members that you're coming and that come with their comments or questions, but um if before I begin, I will just go ahead.

Uh John and I discussed the um sort of the topics, and I'm just gonna quickly run through them.

This is not gonna be a deep dive, but um uh Liz, we we have Ted, right?

Is it can Ted yours?

Uh yeah.

Yes, I can yes, I can.

Okay, great, great.

Just want to be sure.

Good.

Um, thanks, John.

All right.

So I'm gonna just um talk a little bit about what we've been doing over the last several years, and I am perfectly happy if any of the other commissioners want to um raise their hand or just take go off mic and add in things that I have forgotten along the way, but of course, afterwards everyone is uh welcome to add their two cents.

So um Ted, the as this is our full membership, uh, and until our through our next meeting, we have seven people west will be leaving us, and so we're eager to have a a new um uh a new member soon.

We were recently reduced from nine.

I think you had already started uh when we were reduced from nine to seven.

Two of the positions are um ETJ sites, so uh seats.

So um right now those are filled by Mike and Libby.

But and both of whom actually live in when there hasn't been a uh nomination from that region, then it can be filled by somebody else.

But so two of the seven are from the ETJ area.

And um, why don't we just take a moment and everyone can actually introduce themselves and say just a word or two about who they are.

I'm Elizabeth Lasis.

I uh am a biologist, and I work in environmental policy at uh Duke University, do a lot of stuff, but right now a lot of my work is on uh climate resilience and stormwater management and um also do a lot of work on um debt for nature swaps.

Chuck, do you want to uh go next?

And oh, this is my um sixth year on the commission.

Chuck.

Hi, I'm Chuck Mills.

Yeah, I've been on the planning commission for I don't know, what four years maybe?

It's been a while.

Um I've lived in Chapel Hill for like 40 years now, so I've seen the town transition.

So um it's fun having kind of hand in the future of Chapel Hill.

Um I've served on an affordable housing um board before, so that's one of the things uh my areas of concern.

And um I am a cyclist, so I get around town on a bite without a car.

Excellent.

Uh John.

And John is the vice chair.

Hi, Ted.

Uh John Mitchell.

I've been on the PC, which is what we call planning commission for maybe five years or so.

Um I'm a lawyer by trade.

I do uh regulatory consulting for banks.

And uh so I tend to take sort of uh maybe an overly technical view with certain land use things, but um I've lived in town for 10 years, moved down here uh from Washington DC and New York City before that.

And um, like Wes, I uh get around town primarily by e-bike.

Uh sorry, I meant Chuck.

I get around town by bike, e-bike in my case, and uh um also on the board of um shift, Chapel Carbo, which very much appreciated your expediting of the uh Greenway repairs post-Chantal.

So thanks for that.

Libby unmuted.

Hi, I'm thank you so much for meeting with us tonight.

First of all, um, yeah, I'm Libby Thomas, and as Liz said, I'm one of the ETJ members, but I did formerly live in the town for several years.

I'm um just in my second year on the PC.

I have a background in plant ecology, but my work was uh mostly in transportation safety research.

I spent most of my career working at the UNC Highway Safety Research Center, specializing in pedestrian and bicycle safety issues and speed management for safety.

And I even completed a couple of studies for the town of Chapel Hill and for the for the state that involved the town.

And uh currently I have uh a number of volunteer activities, including for the Triangle Connectivity Collaborative, and that's the group that sort of started the conversation in our area, I guess, about the the natural areas um mapping.

Wes.

Hi, I'm Wes.

This is my third year on the Planning Commission.

Um I kind of got into this work through being on the Parks and Rat Commission for six years, and then during that process got involved in the American Legion property task force.

Um we did some conversations around the green track, so it really opened me up to how parks and recreation fits in with other land use questions in town.

Uh you know, part of it is being connected in the community and helping people, you know.

I really think one of the roles of us in the commission is to engage people one-on-one and in groups to the work of the town.

And so uh in my role in the community, it's been really helping people stay connected with our projects and our development, and um, like everyone else in this group, being one of those people that people ask a lot of questions about what's going where.

Um so yeah, uh, this is my third year, and I have one more meeting, and then I'll join the town council.

Uh Jeff.

Hi, uh my name is Jeff Green.

Um I've lived in Chapel Hill since 2008.

I've been on the planning commission since 2023.

Um in my day job, I'm a planning consultant, uh spend my days writing zoning codes.

And I also uh want to echo the comments have been made um as someone who bicycles around town, twiddling around on my e-bike, and who very much relies on the colour and side path.

I am incredibly appreciative of the fact that that project has moved from uh maybe reopening in 2027, but probably not, to opening next week.

So thank you for whatever you did to expedite that.

And uh our most recent member, Mike.

Yes, thank you.

So uh then I recently joined the group.

Um my background is uh that uh I will probably be M for 41 years.

Uh sales executive.

Um I have two residents actually in Chapel Hill, but lived in Raleigh, North Carolina for 20 years before uh moving to Chapel Hill 20 years ago.

Great.

And um just for the record, I also have an e-bike, and I think I'm the one that talked John into getting an e-bike uh or not talked but uh persuaded him.

Certainly inspiration.

I also have an e-bike.

Uh I have a regular bike.

So this is not the transportation uh commission.

Once you got rid of that, I guess everybody floated over to the planning commission or or biked over, as it were.

Um so just a couple minutes on on what we spend our time doing.

The first couple of items are we'll not go into much detail because I'm sure you're uh well aware that uh a big part of what we do is advise on specific projects, can additional zoning requests, et cetera.

Uh and that's always a priority if a project comes to us, that is what we do.

And uh we for the most part almost all of our decisions are uh advisory.

They we do not um we do not usually have any authority, just the ability to recommend and but we do try to often if it's a project that created a lot of conversation, we try to add notes to what we do to help convey why we've done this, and I'll I'll get back to that in a moment.

The second is we advise on reforms to the comprehensive plan, to the LUMO revision, et cetera.

New any um changes to the LUMO.

TAS has been keeping us in he'll come to us again on an advisory capacity regularly and uh feel like we've been pretty well kept up with that and we'll continue to engage on that.

But then the third activity that we do is more um uh topic related.

And if you actually look at the what our mandate is in the LUMO, it it goes on for what seems like pages.

We there's a wide breadth of activities that the LUMA says um are potentially available to the planning commission.

But what we and not required, obviously sort of reviewing certain projects is required, reviewing LUMO regulations is required.

Uh but but most of the other is not.

And so what we have for the last couple years is tried to focus on issues that directly affect planning, and that um the town council doesn't really have the time to dig into, and that we think uh there's some value in having a perspective from uh a citizen advisory board.

We have a great planning staff and other town staff that uh we hear from and we tried to help, but we are very cognizant of not trying to use resources or time of the town staff because that is um uh that is in in short supply.

So um I would say the one issue that is kind of um central to almost everything else we've done is the complete community strategy, which was passed I can't remember when, about three years ago, maybe, and uh is an initiative of the town.

It fits with the comprehensive plan, and it very much resonates with the planning commission and with a lot of uh the direction that we feel the town has committed to.

And so what we've tried to do is um tried to figure out how we can track this, both looking at individual projects, but also different policy changes that might be helpful uh when addressing it.

For example, we developed a um a matrix that we have been using.

John, do you want to just put up an example of one where we have and maybe uh this was a recent one for uh 680 Weaver Dairy Road, which is sort of a hot topic at the moment, and there are approximately I think six categories.

Uh actually, why don't John do you want to read through them?

That might be helpful.

Not just the categories.

Sure.

Uh land use efficiency, which is usually we measure as housing density per acre.

Uh second one is mix of housing unit sizes and configurations that address the town's affordability goals.

Third one is walkability and bikeability to daily needs, such as housing jobs, schools, recreation.

The fourth is mixed use, mix of uses, including residential commercial.

The fifth is access to transit, and there we're usually talking about uh proximity to bus stops.

Six is uh parking aligned with the planning commission's recommendations from a couple years ago.

Um, so basically not excessive parking.

We like to see the parking unbundled from the cost of housing.

Seven are quality design, placemaking and prioritization of the pedestrian realm.

Eight is respectful of surrounding neighborhoods.

So in this category, we generally look at transitions between existing uses and usually more dense current uses.

Umscapes, tree canopy, green space topography, including natural protected areas, just two more uh responsive to stormwater concerns and finally address sustainability.

And so we tried to be relatively systematic about going through these, identifying what we know, and then um the degree to which it sort of meets what this town is looking for, and then any recommendations.

So we have done these for I think nine different in the last couple years, nine different projects, and then we forward these on both to the staff and the um and to the town council along with whatever recommendation we voted, including any conditions that might have come out of this.

So we've also used this lens to when we don't have a lot of other town business to focus on topics that we think um can help uh move us in the generation in the direction that we're looking at.

We spent um, I guess it was over a year ago now, two years ago, we worked for quite a while on a parking policy that John mentioned the unbundling, but um probably the the biggest recommendation and one that looks like is finally uh came to fruition is the taking away a town minimum parking requirement.

Uh but we actually have a lengthy document with other recommendations and the rationale behind that and examples from other towns.

We um another example would be we brought in some of the folks who were involved with um Blue Hill District to look back at uh this has been a very um divisive and controversial development.

It's I don't think it's nearly as brings out nearly as much uh um interest now as it did several years ago, but we wanted to see what we could learn from in particular the code-based form that was used by Southern uh by Blue Hill District in the Luma reform.

So we have a nice write-up.

So we have several of these topics.

The other one that we've spent quite a bit of time on most recently was on the natural areas planning and specifically the natural areas map.

And in all of these we um I think we can find examples where the town staff or the council have picked up what we've done, for example.

Now when we get a new uh project for say a conditional zoning, it will actually list many of the same categories we do from the complete community so that one can have an overview of how at least the staff sees this uh project in front of us fitting with the complete community, and of course, the parking, we're moving forward on the parking, and one of my uh one of the things I'm really pleased at is this natural viewers map that is now available and is actually um provided with many of these new projects to see exactly where the town, the project property fits within the town's natural area and um land use possibility.

So I'm not gonna talk anymore.

We have talked about looking at small area plans and um flooding and stormwater management as other topics that we are looking to take on.

I want to now that's enough from me.

And unless there's any key things, I have left off.

I think people would like to hear you introduce yourself, and I have a few questions for you, and then we can have a discussion of, you know, if there's other topics people want to bring up.

Uh so any key things that I missed that really need to be said straight off.

Okay.

So uh let's just start by asking Ted, would you mind introducing yourself and just giving a little bit on your background?

Happy to do so.

Uh thank you so much for inviting me, and it's wonderful to uh meet everyone, albeit virtually.

Uh what a great diverse group of folks uh with different skill sets and experiences.

Uh and I appreciate all that you contribute to the success of our community.

So I'll start with that.

Um talk a little bit about myself then.

Uh so I began local government service in the late 1980s uh in Fairfax County, Virginia, which I'm sure most of you know is a large urban county uh outside of the District of Columbia.

Um you might be familiar with uh Alexandria, maybe Springfield uh and and the like.

Uh the the town of Reston is uh particularly well known in planning circles as a uh an example of a of a planned community um uh with a certain amount of attention to uh connectivity and complete community principles and built around uh some aspects of of transit, uh and that is in Fairfax County.

Um I'll uh we can talk a little bit more about my experiences there, but I'll I'll go on just to kind of give you a higher level uh I guess summary of my experiences before we get into any details.

So after four and a half years there, I my next uh position was with the town of Bowling Green, small rural uh town in Central Virginia.

I served uh sort of in all the roles, small enough that I was uh planning director, zoning administrator, um and and all of that, as well as town manager um uh a couple years there, and then I moved to North Carolina in 1995, where I was uh city manager of King outside of Winston-Salem.

Um after a couple years there, I moved to Durham and was initially assistant city manager, later deputy city manager and the planning function among nine others was was in my portfolio, and I served on the joint city county planning committee there, which is not the planning commission.

There's a joint city-county planning commission, but this planning committee consisted of uh senior staff and um uh a couple of um elected board members from both Durham City and Durham County, and their role was largely to direct the work of the joint city county planning department.

Uh ten years there, and then moved on to become city manager of Fayetteville, uh, was there for almost four years and then moved to Virginia back to Virginia, spent a couple years, maybe three, as county administrator in Powaton County uh Virginia, which is a uh western suburb of Richmond, and then most recently five years as county administrator of Orange County, Virginia.

Uh so I moved from Orange County to Orange County.

Um and now I'm here.

So uh I have been in a uh quite a few jurisdictions uh involved in the planning uh world in many of them, and um looking forward to uh doing what I can do to help us move forward uh here in Chapel Hill.

I I will also mention that while in Durham uh we re adopted a new comprehensive plan and a new unified development ordinance uh working on both of them at the same time.

I do not recommend that to anyone.

Uh but it was done.

And uh so now here we are I guess about 13 years later, 14, 15, yeah, maybe 15, 15 to 20 years later, and we're and they're working on uh an update.

Uh but uh and it was it did receive recognition from the North Carolina chapter of APA for its uh innovative um for certain innovative components uh which include included some uh form-based elements, a differentiation between uh the urbanized and the rural uh parts of the community, um and that sort of um examples would be in the urban section.

You've got uh uh build two lines and open space uh public plaza type requirements, whereas in the rural sections you have setbacks and such and um and and stream buffers, so differ just recognizing the different types, whereas the previous ordinance had been more of that suburban form type that just didn't really fit um uh well across the entire jurisdiction.

Um so that that's just something noteworthy.

We also included our university and college zoning district, uh, which has certain relevance to Chapel Hill, I suppose.

Um this is where um Perduke and North Carolina Central, we would really just regulate the perimeter of their property to ensure compatibility with adjacent land uses but would allow uh the uh stormwater uh transportation, parking, uh pedestrian uh plans and what have you to be master plan, and then um they would sort of take down available capacity from that master plan and assign it to uh projects, but not have to redo uh all their work in those areas every time they submitted a building plans.

property to ensure compatibility with adjacent land uses uh but would allow uh the uh stormwater uh transportation parking uh um pedestrian uh plans and what have you to be master plan and then um they would sort of take down um available capacity from that master plan and assign it to uh uh projects but not have to redo uh all their um work in those areas every time they submitted a building plans uh so I think that uh was helpful to allow the universities to develop uh on their campuses in a little more expedited way and um maybe maybe that's really all overcome by events now with the University of North Carolina given the action of the General Assembly over the uh recent months where jurisdiction has been removed so um but that that was a an experience that that is I think relative to or relevant to our community um so with that maybe I'll pause and see if folks have have any questions about my overview there that you've been busy um well I I'll I'll start with the first question which I think I sort of hinted at when inviting you and that is um that's a lot of different municipalities and I assume they all had some form of planning commissions curious what you think has worked particularly well um for planning commissions that you might um provide advice to us any thoughts or suggestions um and it could be in sort of whatever context you'd like we can follow up with more specific but just so what would be helpful for us to be working on or not working on well I will tell you that um my observation as a sort of neutral party and in in these jurisdictions is that uh things went uh better when there was good alignment between the elected governing body and the appointed uh planning commission uh and so I worked in places where we have both good alignment and and then also maybe less good alignment uh and then um some effort and and uh and a couple places to try to uh work on that issue um and in one place for a little bit of a time there was a strong effort to to bypass the the planning commission and by uh I guess just initiating uh action for ordinance amendments or changes to district standards initiating initiating it at the board level and and sending a uh a resolution of direction to the planning commission saying this is what we want now you guys go do it and then um uh that you know that maybe doesn't feel uh feel great if um under certain circumstances but um uh when when there's good alignment then uh you tend to get the elected body uh caring quite a bit about the thoughts uh the comments and the recommendations of of the planning commission uh and I've also worked in places where the planning commission simply sent sent comments and other places where there were actual recommendations for voting uh an item up or down and I note that well I would say my preference is that that a that a recommendation you know up or down is is is part of the package um I acknowledge there are reasons why boards may choose not to do that um and sometimes that's really a you know a political decision but particularly if the board the the governing boards has said you know we we don't want you to give us an up or down we're gonna make a decision we just want you to give us the issues for us to consider and we'll decide up or down because we we don't want a record of of being oppositional to our planning commission you know if if that if that were to happen so we'd just like you to to give us thoughts uh but um in other places uh that doesn't seem to be a problem it's you know if the if the recommendation uh of the planning commission is um is not um uh heeded then that just uh requires in the minds of the of the governing board to you know really be clear about why they have a different position and then to articulate that and and then that often will be uh you know helpful if there are lawsuits or um inquiries from the media you know because you've you've taken that that position you're you really have to to lay it out as opposed to just you know

uh to our planning commission you know if if that if that were to happen so we'd just like you to to give us thoughts uh but um in other places uh that doesn't seem to be a problem it's you know if the if the recommendation uh of the planning commission is uh um is not um uh uh heated then that just uh requires in the minds of the of the governing board to you know really be clear about why they have a different position and then to articulate that and and then that often will be uh you know helpful if there are lawsuits or um inquiries from the media you know because you've you've taken that that position you're you really have to to lay it out as opposed to just you know that's my that's my preference so i you know i've seen seen a lot of it and in all those different ways uh i would note that uh the the the matrix that y'all use i you know i find that helpful um and i'm hearing from some members of the town council that that is an area of interest for them um and that in fact one of the big challenges for them is if um a a plan is is recommended for approval and then the staff runs through the summary saying hey this meets all our complete community goals um there's sometimes a feeling of you know uh how do you really um understand what happened qualitatively um because the summary is just a summary and so I in fact was talking with um the mayor and and and mayor pro tem today that the the sort of back and forth that happens you know can you can you give us more density well I could but then I then I have to to remove this this um this buffer area or can you you know address this parking issue I could but then I have to lose these trees you know you you there's all this back and forth that happens but then what you get is just a summary and there's this this interest in some of the council in sort of understanding the trade-offs um you know how they've already happened so that they don't um feel like uh things have been left unexplored I'm not sure how to answer that interest uh I mean that that's that's that's a lot you know to to go through kind of every iteration of discussion but I'm just sharing that with you that they do care about the complete communities framework the summary and and place a lot of interest in kind of evaluating how how that all comes together uh so the work you do in that space I think is on point highly valued and uh necessary to um uh you know uh properly evaluate projects um one other thing I'm interested in hearing about from y'all is uh the there was considerable work done on the comprehensive plan I understand uh but I think that was done sort of during COVID times and I'm not sure uh how everyone feels about kind of where everything landed then there was this extra process about complete communities which I think people feel pretty good about um how does the complete communities framework and the uh comprehensive plan work together and or should they be more fully integrated or relabeled or rearranged in some way uh to to have the full I guess legal effect of you know uh the complete communities framework really being key elements of the comprehensive plan that's just sort of a a a question or observation let me pause there because I've I think I've shared a uh no that that's terrific thank you and um so who'd like to take that I've already spoken quite a bit who would like to uh Jeff would you like to start off Jeff you are um muted well now um you know the town hasn't done a whole comprehensive plan project since uh 2012 maybe um you know this if if you know that and I don't know how much you've looked back at sort of the history of planning and everything but there's supposed to be a Lumo update in 2017 um but it was decided that there needed to be some an update to some of the focus areas.

No, um you know, the town hasn't done a whole comprehensive plan project since uh 2012, maybe.

Um, you know, this if if you know the, and I don't know how much you've looked back at sort of the history of planning and everything, but there was supposed to be a lumbo update in 2017.

Um, but it was decided that there needed to be some an update to some of the focus areas.

And so that went on for about three years.

Um, and you know, I think that's a that exercise is okay, but you know, at least and I I wasn't involved in the process.

Um, I don't think I live in any of the focus areas, but it was really just sort of looking at each focus area.

And so what you got was a focus area would come before council, people who live there would complain, and so you get some adjustments to that focus area, and then let's move on to the next one.

Um, and then you know, there was an uh desire to, you know, the complete communities framework came out of some of the dissatisfaction with um development.

And I think that's a you know, I I mean I'm supportive of the plan, and I think the town's taking good steps towards implementing it.

And I do think there's value in a real sort of holistic, thorough, comprehensive, you know, effort to prepare a comprehensive plan that looks at the town as a whole, that isn't just sort of looking at future focus areas and deciding, well, we can jam in there, but is also thinking about existing neighborhoods and really thinking about how can we, you know, gently densify some of these areas?

Where are there areas that are not focus areas where it may be appropriate to allow three family or four-family homes?

Um, I think after the LUMO update um is finished, whenever that may happen.

Um, I think it the town really needs to make it a priority to do a you know, a real comprehensive plan.

Um and I would also suggest next time that when you do comprehensive plan, set the end date more than eight years out so that you know you're not referencing Chapel Hill 2020 and 2025.

Understood.

Anybody else want to um weigh in on that, John?

Yeah, I I think I would just second um pretty much everything that Jeff just said.

Um when so complete community grew out of a study that was done by a consultant named Rod Stevens, who was asked to look by by the town and by the university at um the town's housing needs through 2040, which was a 20-year horizon at the time.

And um that was intended to address some debate in the community about whether we needed more housing.

And uh Rod came back and said, yes, you you do need to um increase the rate of housing production your town um in order to do your part to satisfy um you know population growth to address population growth in the region, and um, you know, to avoid in his words becoming Palo Alto.

And um, so then the the next question was how how do we grow?

Okay, that's just a quantity thing.

Qualitatively, how do we go about growing like where exactly in town and what what form should it take?

And that gave rise to this uh second project with Jennifer Keysmat for who was former city planner in Toronto.

And um that took uh over, I think about a year to do that project.

And and we came out with this fairly high-level vision of you know, walkable neighborhoods connected by greenways and mixed use pedestrian-oriented, et cetera, all this stuff in our matrix.

And um I think the the thinking at the time was that um this the complete community vision would just kind of hover above the rest of the um comprehensive plan as it existed at that point in time.

It would be sort of like an umbrella framework.

Um and you know, some people thought, well, most of the work we've done since 2010 on planning is compatible with this.

It just sort of expresses it using different words.

I I I've never been so sure about that, but it's certainly a lot of elements in the comprehensive plan and the future land use map that Jeff uh referenced around 2020 does sort of cohere with this.

Um but as Jeff said, you know, that effort around 2020 uh for the the future land use map, what we call the Flume was about focus areas mainly and complete community, it was broader than that.

It was a town wide thing.

And um I do think, you know, we we have like over a thousand pages of comprehensive plan documents, and at some point it would be good because it's fairly unwieldy and not entirely internally coherent.

It would be good to take a look across everything and rationalize um what we have and um maybe get rid of the some of the stuff that seems not not so useful anymore.

Um, and if we need to add something, so be it.

But um I think it would be a good idea to look town wide and and see like what is it, the whole the corpus of it.

What what do we have and how does it fit together?

Understood.

Yep.

Yeah, I don't mean to dominate, so I'll be quick.

Um I think based on what I've seen over my 18 years in town, um, we currently, and I think will even more so um on December 3rd, have a um town council that largely sort of rose in the same direction, which is something that we did not have back in 2011-2012, um, when the um Chapel Hill 2020 was being developed.

Um so I think there's a real opportunity, and I I think that has I mean, I think the reason that the LUMO has taken eight years in counting um since you know it was originally, you know, identified as a priority in 2017, is because you had sort of different council members with different priorities who would you know try to try to sort of adjust what the town was, you know, what that lumo looked like and what the priorities were.

I mean, I think that's why they you know did that um the focus areas um Flume update um back in the late 2010s.

Um but I think that with you know uh a newly constituted town council that you know has a lot of members who generally agree with the direction of the town, I think there's an opportunity for the town to do a really thorough comprehensive plan update.

Doesn't need to be a you know, I I agree with John that we have you know all this thousand pages of comprehensive plan is a bit much, but it can be something that engages the whole town, um, that takes a comprehensive look at our land use, um, includes specific um and actionable implementation recommendations over different periods of time.

And I think we have a really good staff now that can take that direction from this town council and move forward um in an efficient and effective manner.

So I think that's something again, once uh the LUMO update moves forward that I think really needs to be a priority um for the town.

Well, thanks for that.

I I will make a a point here as we get to the top of the hour, um, that you know, a lot of this I hope gets sorted out as the new town council spend some time working together on a on a strategic plan.

Uh, you know, they're the ones who are gonna be the deciders as to whether or not they think um uh a a comp plan rewrite is is a priority.

Um and um and maybe express some uh a vision of what that looks like that aligns with what you're saying, perhaps.

Uh when you when you speak to to uh you know a comp plan in a in a community of our size being a thousand pages, that sort of arguers toward the phrase I like to use with um uh strategic planning exercises is that you know when everything's a priority, nothing's a priority.

And so you know, if you have a thousand pages, so nobody reads any of them.

Did you really provide any guidance?

So yeah, I mean, I think rethinking all that and uh uh if the council's um um so inclined and um they're they're they know that they that uh we don't really have the capacity to work in that space yet, but they're optimistic that we'll we'll get the lummo done and then uh we'll have returned capacity to staff and that that's what they want to do, then uh that that could be something uh very valuable and and should have that a better time horizon on it.

Uh now that we've um I guess demonstrated uh on the ground uh uh a real uh difference in the type of uh development that uh the council's um supporting and willing to approve.

So okay, we don't want to take too much of your time.

So let me just ask if Chuck or Wes or Mike or Libby had either any comments or questions.

It looks or Mike, you just took yourself off.

I did.

I I was just wanted to understand Ted's vision in terms of um how does he balance the growth versus the infrastructure that is being built in town?

Well, uh I mean that that's sort of the the art and science of this work.

Uh I mean, I don't know that I have a magic formula uh to share with you, but I I will say that uh a big part of what I tried to do when I was in Durham when I was in Fayeville is uh to uh help the uh governing board recognized uh the value of doing our core services well, and that when you do them well, then the uh residents give you permission to do more creative or bolder projects.

If you uh don't do the core services well, uh then um they tend to to rein you back in.

So um I will be focusing considerably on uh some of the shortcomings in our uh municipal infrastructure, uh including uh you know facilities and and and our fleet and uh trying to really understand how we can get those in a better place for uh being you know sustainable.

Um I haven't been through a budget cycle yet, uh, but I have a sense of of how challenging the last one was.

Um and once I kind of get through that, that'll that'll give me some uh better insights into um into that sort of fundamental question of what what what is our infrastructure look like?

Is it in a you know a place that's uh capable of sustaining the type of um densification uh missing middle projects that we're intent on bringing forward, or uh is it not?

And we have to kind of recalibrate.

Um don't know yet, um, but I'll be paying a lot of attention to that.

Um so I'll hopefully that gives you some uh some insight into my thinking.

It does.

Thank you.

Wes.

Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna have more time to to work with you, Ted, but I I would just like to take this moment to say it's very encouraging to see you here, taking the time.

Um our planning commission in Chapel Hill has some of the most dedicated informed and hardworking volunteers.

And I think that um going forward, we're all we're all narrowing down on what our challenges are and working out the solutions to get um our community moving in the right direction.

I just uh I think it's encouraging to see you engaging the planning commission.

And you know, as I get on the town council, I hope to continue to find ways to utilize this group to really help inform the work we do.

And uh again, just thank you for being here.

It it sends a great message, and um, I'm really appreciative for all the work that these planning commission members have done, but also in the past that it this has been one of the highest level uh community groups we have in town, and um uh I'm just appreciative of the work and you being here and taking interest.

Thank you.

Happy to do it.

I appreciate your work too.

Uh Libby or Chuck, any follow that all right.

Um, well, Ted, just echoing what Wes said, thank you.

Uh and assuming nobody has any final comments, we will see everybody in person in the library, hopefully, including Libby, uh on December 2nd.

So thank you again.

Yeah, just a little bit of logistics before we head out.

Uh thank you, Ted.

You're welcome to get off.

Thank you.

Y'all have a happy Thanksgiving.

Yes, you as well.

Uh just last little bit of logistics.

Uh, we should be able to get library room D for uh Tuesday, December 2nd, starting at six.

Um if that sounds good with folks, I'll go ahead and just post it publicly.

Um we'll be a little bit of a smaller room, but should be able to fit folks uh just fine.

Um and then uh just a reminder for next agenda we'll have uh new member recommendation.

If you know folks who would like to apply, please ask them to do so.

We'll pull folks who apply by the end of this weekend for your agenda packet.

If there are other folks who apply later, we'll we'll try to add them in for consideration, but definitely good to apply before the end of this weekend.

Um and we'll also need to elect a new chair.

Um I think I have I may have missed our timing.

I think it was September.

Um, but I believe we are looking at new chair and vice chair.

Liz, I believe you have served the two-year maximum.

Um, I didn't even know there was a maximum.

Yes, uh I will pull those details up, but I think we'll we'll need to do that at the next meeting.

So okay, wow.

I'm like a renegade.

All right.

Great.

Um anybody have anything else?

Is the address 100 library drive?

Just want to make sure.

Yes.

Yeah, thank you.

It's all which is off Estes.

Okay.

Yeah.

Right.

You know, there's a Walgreens at Estes and uh Franklin and it's just up from that.

Thank you.

All right.

All right.

We see everybody then.