No.

It's 5 32.

And I'm Heather Washburn.

And we're gonna start off with our roll call.

I'm just gonna go down the line.

If you're here, please yell out so that we can see you or raise your hand, but I would prefer you to use your voice on this one.

Kimberly Andrews.

John Biggs.

Kelsey Brinkley.

Here.

Jim Farron.

Present.

Annie Ullman.

Yeah.

Patrick Brennan.

Here.

And as I stated, I'm Heather Washburn and I'm your chair.

Did everybody get a chance to um take a look at the agenda today?

Yes.

And I'm gonna see if I can change this view so I can see gallery.

There we go.

That's much easier.

Um and uh does anybody have any questions or can I get a motion for approval of the agenda?

I'll make a motion to approve the agenda.

I second that.

Great.

All right.

Can all use your um uh hands up for uh those that agree, approve.

All right, all approved.

Motion carries.

Um I have an announcement, but does anybody else have an announcement?

No.

Um, so it's come to um knowledge to me that my term is gonna be ending in June, uh, June 30th.

And after a lot of um soul searching and looking at uh what I have on my books coming forward, I have made the hard decision that I'm not gonna be renewing.

I'm gonna roll off um at the end of June.

Um I I feel that my practice needs me, and I've got other things that are going on that um I need to uh shift my time into other places, and so um we'll pick this up.

I think you saw all on the agenda that that's gonna be part of our new business that we're gonna be speaking to, but I want to let you guys know that and how much I have enjoyed being on the commission, and um I felt like I have had a chance to do a lot of things, and I need now I need to do more things and um and explore other opportunities.

Well Heather, as you're as your vice chair, I just want to take a moment to say thank you so much for your amazing service to the town of Chapel Hill.

Uh I have benefited uh from your expertise and your knowledge and and how you have uh uh led this commission, and we're we're uh lucky to have been associated with you.

So thank you for uh for for for this.

Whoever takes over for you will have massive shoes to fill.

So thank you.

I appreciate it.

Annie, your hand is up, but I'm not sure that that's for me.

I think that might just be from the previous vote.

But do you know that it's actually not from the previous vote?

Okay, well, please go ahead.

Um, I do not mean to seal your thunder, but if you are sharing that announcement, then I will also share that um when I took on this role, I was filling an existing vacancy and that term ends in June as well.

Um I would have loved to continue with this, but unfortunately I am moving out of state in September, so I will not be continuing.

Um likewise it's been an honor to be here, even if it's only been for a few months.

I've learned a lot.

It's been really exciting for me personally and professionally.

So thank you all for letting me share the stage with you.

Yeah, and thank you, Annie.

Um, thank you so much for your time.

And Jim, you were trying to say something.

Yes, no, I I would echo Patrick's sentiment.

And my question too, also is although you're going off the board, you have amount, uh, excellent amount of expertise.

Would you be available?

Say if I had a question on something, would I contact you?

Absolutely.

Yeah, I'll be available by email.

You guys should have that email.

Um, I'm happy to do that.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Um shall we move on and find out?

Do we have any petitions that we need to address?

No, Heather, I just want to note that um uh Kim Andrews has joined.

So for the roll caller, yeah.

She's present.

I don't I don't know why it has my name is Annie.

I guess Annie, I've morphed into you on this Zoom link, whatever reasons.

So yeah, I'm here.

I'm sorry I'm late.

Yeah, that's right.

People are always saying we look similar.

Yeah.

Thank you for turning on your camera.

Yeah.

Okay.

Thanks so much.

Um, so we move on to the consent agenda.

Um, did anybody have any questions on this?

Uh take that as a no.

Can I get a pretty straightforward?

Yeah.

Can I get a motion to approve the consent agenda?

I'll make that I make a motion to approve the consent agenda.

Can I get a second?

I second that.

Is that Annie or Jim?

I'll defer to uh the Doppelganger.

Okay.

All right.

Uh okay.

Uh for those of you that approve, please raise your hand.

All right.

Across the board.

Um, so motion carries.

All right.

We can move on to new business.

And we're starting with 701 Martin Luther King, the paces.

Um, do we have a presentation that's gonna happen?

Yes.

Okay.

Um Brian or Sean, I believe Sean's gonna give the presentation.

So uh pull that up.

Um just a uh quick intro, though.

I'm Brian Boyles with Landmark Properties.

Uh, we're here tonight to present our design on a multifamily development project located at 701 Martin Luther King Jr.

Boulevard.

Uh just as a quick background on landmark, uh, we are one of the largest residential developers in the Southeast, uh based out of Athens, Georgia, and Atlanta, Georgia.

Uh, this will be our first project in Chapel Hill, but we have built several projects on both Raleigh and Charlotte.

Uh, and our conditional zoning was approved by town council last October.

Um, so now we are um you know working through uh the rest of the process here.

So to that note, I'll turn it over to Sean to give uh presentation of our design here.

Yeah, thanks, Brian.

Um thank you for having us and uh uh letting us kind of talk about our project here.

Um yeah, as as Brian said, we have gone through um kind of several stages of the design process here.

We've met with Brian Peterson a couple times and we've gotten uh great reviews and and great feedback from him that was all very positive.

Um so as you can see here, we're at the corner of East Longview Street and Martin Luther King Boulevard.

Um kind of a as you can see, oddly shaped site.

Um, but you'll see here in a minute that I think we're doing the best we can with what what we've been given here.

Um so moving right into the design.

We have um five levels over um uh podium project.

Um we've we've worked hard to create a streetscape that is um approachable that does uh the best it can with the grading of the site.

Um you end up with um uh brick and and uh masonry and metal panel along the streetscape.

Um and then up above, you have kind of this offset condition that that helps to differentiate the streetscape from the upper portions of the building.

It break helps to break down the massing.

Um so that you know, we're not trying to build a wall here.

We're just trying to create a building that hits the yield that we want to hit and while providing uh an interesting building um that engages kind of the the community and helps to create a walkable open area for pedestrians.

Um we have employed we're kind of playing off of the topography that which there is a significant amount here um with this sort of mountain skate parapet condition.

Uh that in particular, I think Brian Peterson gave us good feedback on.

Um using these kind of vertical channels along the facades to help differentiate, kind of add a rhythm to the facade as you go.

We group windows together um to help kind of establish a verticality to it, and then we bookmark the or not bookmark, sorry, uh bookend the the massing with these raised areas of brick.

Um so moving into kind of a an aerial view here.

You see this um oddly oddly shaped building, but um you have a fire access lane that helps to divide the site up, and then now you can start to see how the land planning is is really working with the the streetscape to establish an open uh corner to just again try to make the building feel integrated into the site.

Um can see some of these views, start to zoom in on that condition.

We intentionally pulled the building back at that point to help to establish um uh uh a distinctive entryway into the site and into the building.

Um we end up with you know, you see uh plenty of space for seating and for planters um for foliage and for places for people to gather um and and move through the site organically.

Um we have what we're looking at here is the leasing entry, and then over to the right, you'll see uh we have uh a spot for retail with plenty of opportunity for seating for tables, um, things of that sort.

And then it's just another view of the same thing.

Um and then getting more specific into the actual facade design.

You see a uh general um palette of materiality.

So, like I said, you end up with masonry along the bottom and storefront and metal panel, and then fiber cement siding up above using these in the interesting parapet profiles to differentiate the building from other projects that might be nearby and kind of help to create uh an identity for this particular building.

Um it's a you know, uh for lack of a better term, it's a very four-sided building.

We definitely we designed it all the way around to be attractive, not just for the street, um, not just for MLK or Longview, but also for the residents that live that might live behind it.

Um, and then there's some courtyard elevations.

So there's our street section.

Um, so we're staying 15 feet off the property line.

There's some retaining conditions there.

You can see the parking here.

You have three-ish levels.

Um you come in off of Longview.

Um yeah, I think that's that's it, unless Brian O'Brien wants to add anything.

We can get into the site lighting.

Uh no.

Um, just as a as a heads up, you know, that that corner element there.

Um that is going to be a public plaza area that we are going to provide the town with uh an access agreement, you know, permanent access agreement there.

So you know, that is going to be uh incorporating uh or sort of complementing that bus rapid transit stop that will be located along across the street from from this property on East Longview Street.

Um and then also uh there's a 10-foot wide uh uh multi-use path along East Longview Street that will also be uh in court, or excuse me, along Martin Luther King Jr.

Boulevard, uh, as you can see, there are people walking on that.

So uh those are also uh you know public elements that we've introduced uh here to um you know really really create a sense of community here.

So just thought I'd add that and uh good job, Sean, and um turn it back to you.

Yeah, I'll I'll talk about the lighting if you like.

Yes.

Uh so I'm Wendy Ramsden, I'm a landscape architect with Thomas and Hutton.

I've been working with the larger team on this for uh over a year, I guess, at this point.

Um so we you know there's not a lot of site area, and there's not a lot of and there's no uh parking.

So that is kind of nice.

We've what we've done here is we've got a variety of lights placed on the site.

Um some of them are post lights on 15-foot poles.

They're sort of closer to the um to the building.

There are also some lighted ballards, which are 11 foot tall and four foot tall.

We've tried to do a variety of these lights so that we don't have a lot of you know huge changes in the amount of lighting from place to place on the plaza, but so that it's sort of a more even light and and so that the whole thing is well lit.

Um there will be wall-mounted lights on the building as well on the building facades.

And I did want to let you know, we did get approval from council during the CZ to get the lighting levels to the five-foot candle level at the right-of-way lines on both Longview and on Martin Luther King.

That public plaza on Martin Luther King is as Sean and Brian talked about is actually across the street from the New Bart BRT stop.

And so the project plaza really is intended to feel like a public space.

What with the, you know, the multi-modal trail going along on the street in front and it being close to the to the BRT stop.

We're and you know, having lots of seating and shading and plantings there, um, lots of sort of activity in the coffee shop.

We really are anticipating that that will be a somewhat public place, and uh, you know, even in the early evening when you might need some lighting there.

So we do have a variety of those uh of those different types of lights to highlight each space.

And I didn't want to let you know all the lighting is LED and all are available in that warmer 3,000 Calvin tone, and that's what we've specified for the project.

On the um when you when you look around at the at the top and the right side side, um the plans are actually north is to the right, so it's hard to call it east, west, north, south.

But the two areas where we're about 15 feet from the property line, there actually will be some surface lighting on the building.

It'll be lower down, but it'll be motion activated, just safety lighting.

And um one of the sides has an emergency egress.

So there will be lighting, obviously on that on that facade also.

Great.

Thank you all.

Um we're gonna start with some questions.

Commissioner, so how this usually runs is that um the commissioners are gonna ask questions.

We'll go one by one.

Then we're gonna ask for public comment and then we'll come back to the commissioners with uh our uh comments, and we can um have any discussions.

Um just for the commissioners, what we're looking at on this project is specifically the building elevations.

Um, if there are issues with buffers, uh alternate buffers, the site lighting fixtures.

Um that is what our lens should be as we review this.

And our actions that are going to be available are that we approve this, or we can defer this.

But just so that you folks know, um, no action is actually required by the developer or the applicant.

Um, and uh they are not required to come back to the commission for any modifications.

I just want everybody to be clear as to kind of the ground rules as we go into it.

Um, but it's our job to be able to give comment on how this affects our Chapel Hill community.

Okay.

So let's start with um uh let's start with uh Kelsey.

Kelsey, do you have questions?

Yeah.

You guys were designing I guess the elevation and specifically the setback.

Was there consideration to potential um high volume uh pedestrian traffic with uh potentially you know the movement of the Dean Dome to Chapel Hill North in the long term?

Yeah, I mean, that's part of that was we worked together with the town on.

I mean, that's why we've started, or that's why we've implemented that multimodal path there along the front.

You know, we've given up a lot of space between us and the road for you know public infrastructure there.

You're on mute.

Oh, sorry.

Yep, no, thank you so much.

Um that I don't have any other questions.

Thank you.

Okay.

Um, can I go on to Jim Farron?

Yeah, I have a couple, maybe a little wider than you know, elevation and so forth.

Who's your market?

Who are you going for?

I'm familiar with your organization starting in Athens University of Georgia with a focus on, I believe, student housing.

Who are you looking to rent your places here?

Yeah, so you know, due to fair housing laws, I mean, we can't discriminate who we rent to.

Um, this is a multi-family project.

It's will be built by, you know, it's in our PACES brand.

That's our multi-family brand.

You can go look at PACE South End.

It's a multi-family project we built in Charlotte.

Um, we are very clear with um the town that this will be a multi-family project, but given its location, there we do expect that students will will live here.

So um, you know, again, uh, this will be marketed to everybody.

And any comments about transportation and uh affordable housing relative to the project.

Yeah, we we have agreed um we've offered some affordable housing.

There will be a level of for a number of units uh available for uh uh for affordable housing.

Um there's uh as far as transportation, um you know, we are actually right below the minimum required amount of parking.

We feel like uh the proximity to downtown um will uh we don't feel like there's going to be a ton of in and out traffic every day, and the need for um the need for store, you know, car storage is not gonna be there like it would maybe a less urban project.

Um there are currently four bus routes that stop right in front of uh of our project here, and then the the bus rapid transit station will be built um just directly across the street from us on East Longview.

So there's gonna be uh just a number of public transit options here.

Appreciate your comments, Brian.

Thank you.

Yes.

Okay, can we go to Annie?

Yes, thank you so much for the great presentation.

This looks like a great property.

We really need affordable here.

Um my question is primarily about the photometrics.

Um from looking at it, it seems like the vast majority of the lighting is going to be wall mounted.

Um, I didn't really find, and maybe I just wasn't looking carefully enough for lighting that is I don't know the term, but uh independently standing, not wall-mounted.

Um, and it seems like the green space and the site plan really emphasizes the walkability of the area.

So I was just wondering if you could answer to Defen, maybe why there isn't so much standalone lighting um around the sidewalk areas.

So the there is if you go uh Sean, if you can go to the plan right before yeah, and maybe zoom in a little bit.

Yeah.

Um so uh the um on the left hand side where there's the little one, there's three three poles there.

That is uh pole lighting.

That's the stuff that's gonna be about 15 feet high to light up that corner.

And then as you get into the site, it's true.

There is wall-mounted lighting, but then right along the plaza, there's also uh four or five places there where we have the tall ballard lighting and then smaller ballard lighting closer to the entry door.

Um so there is going to be a variety.

Now we can you know, we can't go over five foot candles at the at the street.

So at the pro at the right-of-way line, and so we are having to keep the lighting inside our inside our site.

Um there are two overhead like street mounted poles, Duke lighting on the street there, one at the corner, and one that is just at the right hand side of um of our property at the service road there.

So there is some street lighting along there, and we think that with the sort of the overall wash of ambient light that there will be a good amount of uh lighting on that multi-lone trail.

Okay, excellent.

Thank you so much.

No more questions for me.

Okay, uh John Biggs.

Um I just I just got here, so uh I'm apologize if I miss part of this presentation.

Um my only question was mainly in regard to the the element the materials on the outside of the building.

Um uh did you all already cover that?

No.

Well, they went over it, but not into detail.

Oh, okay.

Um I uh I think in looking at this, I think there are some requirements in the zoning as far as a breakdown of breakdown of materials on the outside of the building as far as um percentages of materials.

Can you talk about that a little bit?

Yeah, um, Sean, do you have have that handy?

Uh I don't know.

I don't have this.

I can't sorry.

This is yeah, this is Brian.

Um I guess my own my other question.

My other question was just in the regard to the the light gray material that's about 90% of the elevation there or 80% of the elevation as far as the the solid.

Um there's also a a certain percentage of glass.

So I was just asking about that.

But um that the gray, the light gray material that is the about 80% of the solid portion of the elevation.

Is that the fiber cement?

Yeah, and yeah, to your to your note on uh zoning requirements, there are transparency um you know statutes that we and conditions that we agreed to, and we do we will meet them, obviously.

I don't have them offhand, but um yeah, we we the requirements of the the zoning conditions okay.

Um I have the information about the transparency, but I don't see anything about the uh change of materials.

So for the transparency, they've asked us to have 50% of the um main floor facing MLK to be transparent, and we are um at least meeting that actually we're exceeding that looks like we're closer to 70.

Um, and then facing long view, uh we uh need to be at 35% transparency, and we are uh exceeding that by we're at about 35%.

It's it's not much more than that.

And then for the upper floors, the transparency is 25%, and we are at 35% in general.

Okay.

Um I guess my uh the one comment I had about that about the fiber cement.

Um how is that fiber cement done?

Is that done as panels or is that done as like a lap a fiber cement lap siding?

So we have a couple different material fiber cement materials across the facade just to help break down the massing.

So you can see here wherever you see the horizontal lines, that's the fiber cement siding, and then wherever you see kind of this reveal system, that's the fiber cement panel.

Oh, okay.

All right.

Um yeah, my only comment about that, it just looks like a lot of fiber cement.

Um I do I do appreciate the fact that that the elevation is not broken up too much.

Um but um I'm a little concerned about having the whatever it is, uh, six stories or so of the fiber cement, but uh, I think in here you have it in different colors, so that that that looks fine to me.

Um, but um John, we can only that was my only question.

Okay, we'll get more into comments if you guys can keep it to questions.

We'll do comments uh uh in the couple of rounds, okay.

Oh, okay.

Thanks.

Um Kim, do you have questions?

I don't have any questions, uh, other than the fact I was just curious as to um the lightings.

Are they all going to be consistent?

Are they black?

I was trying to look at the the information that you provided.

So um is the up the standalone lighting and the ones on the wall, they'll match.

They're all be the same color, and are they a black color?

Same color.

I think that they are black or uh like a really dark bronze.

I think it was black.

Okay, I was just curious.

That's yes, we are coordinating with the building with the lights on the facade and with the other materials on the building, so that it all reads.

Meshes together.

Yep.

That's all I had.

Okay.

Uh Patrick.

Yeah, thanks.

Uh I think uh Brian and Brian and Wendy, thanks so much for this presentation.

Really appreciate it.

Um, I think you touched on this a little bit, but if you could just go a little bit deeper, could you talk about um how the sort of building elevation and its surrounding area uh and sort of the choice of materials, uh uh how you guys made came to some of those decisions regarding the the elevation?

And I want a follow-up question after that.

We wanted to, I mean, having a masonry base was important, both to establish kind of a hard um but still approachable urban, you know, semi-urban pedestrian condition.

Um, and then using the change materiality going upward from there helped to establish sort of a base middle top condition by using the parapet, you know, forms that we did.

Um, and and just to help kind of establish a public and private, you know, realm vertically.

Um, and then going left to right, you know, we just uh using the the floor plate, the the actual footprints of the of the building, um, using those kind of more natural shapes, right?

An inside corner help to give us the break from one material and form to another.

Got it got it, okay.

And then does the elevation or does it is there have any impact on flood risk?

Is there any sort of flood risk associated with the elevation of this building?

Is it that you all are aware of?

No, it's not the flood zone.

No, I don't really sound like and we are mitigating to the hundred year uh storm for that.

Okay.

Okay.

And Adam, just a quick question for you.

What's the height limit in Chapel Hill?

That's a good question, Patrick.

I don't know it off the top of my head.

I think it varies by district, but um, yeah, I can do some digging on that and send it to you.

But this this one probably has a specific plan that's more than likely has heights noted in their CDD.

That may be something the applicant team has, but but it can vary.

Okay.

Like I look just a general comment for me.

I I think in and as Heather said, we have no sort of real authority on this conversation.

So I say this as a citizen.

I I think to the extent developers could sort of use materials that are more in line with the materials that have been traditionally been in Chapel Hill.

Uh the you know the the kind of the that also sort of fit within the natural environment, whether it be the red clay brick uh or or sort of colors along those lines, I think would be really helpful as a citizen.

I'm sort of concerned that we're just gonna drive down MLK and it's gonna be monstrous apartment buildings that are look like Russian prison complexes, you know.

Uh but I'm just a citizen.

Not Russian prisons.

All right, let's let's refrain from comments.

Um let's keep to questions and then we'll give public comment and then we can come back around to our comments and in summarize.

Um I have a few questions I'd like to ask.

Did you have any other questions, Patrick?

No, that was a uh so I do you guys have a site plan you can pull up and point where north is.

I know that Wendy had brought it up.

I just want to be very clear where north is because your renderings make it so north is is on this planet to the right.

To the right.

Yeah, okay.

Um we've got seven floors, yeah.

And did you guys do shadow studies to see if you're gonna be throwing shadows on the um buildings of the neighbors that are around you?

Ryan, uh remind me, do we did we do anything like that?

We not in a I mean we did, but not enough.

We don't have a formal exhibit put together that would demonstrate that.

Okay.

I I'm gonna highlight is that it's very important to your neighbors.

Um then what led you to the uh mountainscape?

Um, what what if Chapel Hill says mountain scape and how did that get applied to this?

How is this Chapel Hill appropriate?

That was more specific to this specific site and the way it sort of nestles into the topography.

Um to visit the site, that was one thing that we noticed is um, you know, we're at the base of a hill, a pretty significant hill here.

Um, and it just felt like a almost like a natural extension of what was directly around it.

And we were looking for opportunities to um create a building that wasn't just another box building, right?

We wanted to have a silhouette that was unique but still fit in with its direct surroundings.

Yeah, and um to elaborate on that a little bit more, you know, uh uh Sean hit the nail on the head.

Like we just did we wanted we didn't want to have another box, right?

And that was important for to the town council as well, like um so really helping to breaking up the massing um and having different architectural uh features uh specifically along you know Martin Luther King Jr.

Boulevard was was super important to us, and you know, but uh part of the reason we were able to really do that was because of the shape of the site, but yeah, really just trying not to just trying to have some architectural features that break up the massing, and we felt you know uh items like that really helped.

Okay, um I I'm not getting where in Chapel Hill you are getting these shapes or this size.

So any kind of comment or did did you have precedence that you were using in Chapel Hill to help inform you?

We had I mean the the the brick base and the masonry, certainly.

I mean, there yeah, you know, I I think we all know that there's plenty of um brick buildings around in within Chapel Hill, but otherwise we were responding more directly to the site itself and the footprint of of the site.

Okay.

And then how many units is this it's not we don't have the exact number yet but it should be around 190.

Okay.

And what size is the property?

About 1.9 acres give or take okay all right okay I think that's all of my questions.

I'll come back with comments later.

Thank you.

Um let's move on to public comment so we have any of the public out there that would like to make comments.

Adam we're gonna have to lean on you on this issues.

Yeah I'm not weird any other so I think we're safe for now if we have some breakthrough I'll let you know.

Okay great.

All right so now we're gonna come back to the commissioners and they're gonna make comments on this.

Okay.

Um we're gonna go in reverse order.

So Patrick you're gonna start now comment away yeah I I don't know I I just uh we obviously have no authority in this situation but um I I don't see how this facade or the materials choice fits in with the existing structures in Chapel Hill and and uh you know I don't know it's landmarks fault I you know you guys are probably trying to choose the most economical way to build this building uh but uh just wish the town council and others might uh sort of have more rigorous material standards and that we put up buildings that are going to have uh sort of a lasting quality to them and fit more within the existing townscape um also have concerns about um you know sort of what this building will do to its neighbors uh you know notably there's a a little church across the street um um that you know I think to Heather's point could get kind of overshadowed literally um and um yeah yeah I think I think this is also in an opportunity zone so I think you know it's gonna be a very profitable building and and if they do end up putting Carolina north there it's gonna be a very profitable building and I just wish we made decision materials choices along those lines so that's my comment all right uh Kim I don't have any comments at this time okay uh John I guess along the lines of what Patrick was saying um I guess one concern I have is with the the height of the building with uh I'm not sure what the the height limitation is for the building based on say the airport or the um any other height limitations there for that zone uh I didn't look at that before the meeting here um I otherwise I I kind of agree with Patrick I I would not I would not classify this the way that he did though um but having lived in eastern Europe before I would say it it does there is a similarity anyway to a housing blocks in other countries but that's all I'm gonna say Annie Yeah um I understood the explanation that y'all gave about my question for for lighting um and I was just looking at the the lumens and the the wall mounted lighting is significantly significantly um not as bright as the bollard lighting and um I just have a little bit of concern about the safety issues um with not having as much bollard lighting outside of the main uh entrance at the corner of Longview and an MLK um if I had any ability to to recommend anything I would um recommend more bollard lighting on the furthest western and eastern points um just there's so so many students and this is going to bring in so many students probably and um this is on a really high traffic corridor really high traffic um intersection so I just think that um this is a situation that could really benefit from more high powered lighting especially given the dense trees that are going to be surrounding it we can ask our um our electrical engineer to look at how we can um improve the lighting a bit and when you say the east and west I I know that this is turned do you mean left and right or up and down or do you mean left and right I'm sorry um the furthest left pointy part and the furthest right pointy part um okay it just seems like there's a lot of opportunity for some additional higher lumen lighting um on the furthest right pointy part.

Um the furthest left pointy part and the furthest right pointy part.

Um just seems like there's a lot of opportunity for some additional higher lumen lighting um on the furthest right pointy part.

So just so you know, that is not really a pedestrian area.

That is emergency access and trash collection back there.

Um, and so we we wouldn't expect um pedestrians to be going any further than halfway along there.

There is a small dog park in the in the center of that facade.

Uh, but we will take a look at the lighting and see if there's uh an opportunity to increase it a little bit for pedestrians in that space.

Thank you.

I really appreciate that um initiative.

And as much as I understand your point about that, I think that reifies my my perspective as well, given the very young population that will probably live here.

I think it is really important to have a lot of lighting in areas like emergency access, garbage areas that are usually not as that may not attract pedestrians, but could pose some safety issues, is just um something I foresee.

Um, Annie, I'm gonna jump in here just a bit uh on lighting.

Um there's been quite a bit of studies that have been done of when you have bright lights, um, it actually blinds you.

And so darker corners, things like that, that's actually where you can have people that are hiding.

And so uh there's been plenty of studies that if you have an even amount of lighting, it allows your eyes to be able to acclimate to that.

Um when you have harsh lighting, it's much harder.

And so therefore it's actually more dangerous.

So I think that how they're handling the lighting is actually really good.

Um, if we want to work out uh better lighting situations, especially the footpath lighting, um, so that you can see so you don't stumble and trip, um, and that your periphery lighting stays even so that uh you don't get blinded and therefore you can't see if there's somebody that's coming at you.

I just wanted to jump in because sometimes there's a misnomer that bright lights mean safer, and that's not always the case.

I've definitely been a victim to that, Ms.

Norman right now.

Thank you.

I really want to read that actually.

Um I yield my time.

Uh Jim.

Yeah, a couple things.

Uh I personally am positive toward the project.

It's another asset to the community.

And height was interesting, the comments about height.

Again, given Chapel Hill's somewhat landlocked situation, I would say in the future that's the way things are going to go, and that's going to be higher.

And finally, I was interested in two of the commissioner's comments about exterior.

Just to educate me, what if you had to do differently, what would you do to the exterior to make it more palpable in your mind?

So I was I was just curious.

This is Patrick.

John.

Oh, yeah.

I think Jim, happy to have a conversation offline, but I think out of respect for this process and respect for Brian and Brian and Sean and Wendy's time.

But I I think you know, I think there's a historical context in Chapel Hill for sure that uh that you know I think is is interesting uh to be at least.

But happy to talk to you in another forum about that.

I'd I had hoped to.

Yeah, I'd educate me on this topic.

Jim, I have comments as well.

So once we get to me, I will comment freely.

Sure.

Did you have any other comments that you like?

Okay.

Kelsey.

Yeah, my only other comment um is in the public space.

If there's an opportunity, I I'm not sure or clear on what the awnings are.

Um, okay.

So it looks like there's actually not any real covered, truly covered spaces.

Um, as a community member with a dog and a small child, um, not having covered outdoor, like truly covered outdoor spaces will prevent me from frequenting some of maybe the tenants in the bottom.

Um, so I umbrellas only go so far.

It really doesn't help with rain.

Um, so that would be my only comment is maybe consider I'm sure it has something to do with how much you can stick out into the space, but um for for future projects potentially, um, or even at least closing that first part um to be a true covering would be my only comment.

But thank you so much for your time and um you know look forward to uh really happy to see that multinodal um you know in that public space be granted to the um to the public.

So thank you for working with the town on that and setting it back a bit to ensure we can um have a pedestrian corridor.

Okay, I'm gonna jump in.

So I I love that you have this public area that's in the front as you approach off of the corner.

I think that's really important as we try to um have a um a transition area from street to building.

And um I like that you have gotten brick that's incorporated a like the plantings, a light the lighting.

Things that I think could really use some um work is that your height is massive and it is pretty much a vertical wall and it reads as uh a monolithic boulder.

And that's where I'm not seeing how that breaks down in scale to be uh friendlier to pedestrians.

It's reading more as stadium, and you start to break that massing down with having the brick or having um uh like site lines, so in your large windows, having the band that dark banding, um that starts, but your facades are going vertical very quickly of um seven stories that as a pedestrian walking by, that's at minimum 70 feet that they're walking by.

And the trees that you've got in there are ornamental trees that are not really gonna help with um breaking that uh scaling so it doesn't feel as massive.

And we get a lot of comments from right down the street um at the corner of Estes and MLK and how that feels overwhelming, but they have actually got more materials that break down the massing.

And I'd also encourage you to look at um the South Creek homes and how they've used materials to break down massing so that the scale isn't so overwhelming.

Um the covered spaces, I agree with Kelsey, that you could actually grow from the banding that you have, that could become an awning that um would provide some coverage.

Uh there's other areas like at the very top of your buildings.

Um, I guess a question I have is did you look at stepping it back so that you start to stair step back so that um the person walking along the street instead of filling 70 feet or more that it's at five stories, which isn't so overwhelming.

That would also help with shadows, so that your um your project isn't projecting a shadow on your neighbors.

Did that come up at all?

Can uh Brian or the Brian's or Sean?

Oh uh so we um I mean, look, we we have a small site, it's challenged.

Um, doing that would have just been uh detrimental to the density we would be able to achieve.

So yeah, this is uh this is a this is the height that we worked with from with the city on.

So um now to that point, there is um there is a lot of slope on this site.

So uh when you go back to the neighboring properties, um, those are actually sitting 30 feet higher, right?

So, you know, they're not looking at an eight-story building, they're looking at a five-story building, right?

So we try to incorporate as much as we could, and as you see, we did we did uh drop the building down one story on the front along um along Martin Luther King Jr.

Boulevard, but um, you know, that was really um as much as we could give up, yeah, to be candid.

I I understand there is a balance that's but with all projects like this.

Um if you we look over on Fordham, um we've got large developments that are happening there.

Uh, they also are breaking down the materials and the colors to help with breaking down the massing.

Uh it still comes across as a large wall that um is flanking Fordham.

Um they've worked with the uh power company to get larger trees um because all of their wires went underground.

And by having larger trees, that also helps to break down the massing of the building.

Now we're not benefiting from that at the moment, but in 10 to 15 to 20 years, that is gonna break down the massing of the building.

Now we're not benefiting from that at the moment, but in 10 to 15 to 20 years, that is going to break down the massing of the building, and it also provides um shade and shelter to the pedestrians that are walking along the street.

Yeah, sorry, uh to chime in real quick and Lendy, correct me if I'm wrong, but uh, the issue that we have along this particular site is that there are a uh massive amount of utilities that are run under the ground there.

Yes, I was just getting ready to speak up about that.

So we can do bypass pipes and uh store easements and duke power easements, and we have planted a tree in every tiny space we can find.

And then this is Bridgie Ganter.

So I also work for Landmark, and we've been working with the civil engineer.

Um additionally, we've been working with the town on fire access.

So we have to provide you know, access for their aerial trucks, and that limits the trees, the size of the trees that we can plant along MLK as well as the utility underground complex.

I actually don't have any issue with your landscaping.

Um like I see where you're putting the plants in.

What I have issue with is that it is a huge, I think we can all agree it is a huge building that's very close to two public um right-of-ways where pedestrians are walking underneath.

So I'm just trying to throw out ideas of so we've we've talked through it's a seven-story building.

You have a hundred and ninety units that you have to keep that's from you guys, and there's um we're not looking at doing a setback back so that the perceived height could be less.

That that's been next.

So I'm looking, so I'm saying, okay, well, did you look at trees?

You can also look at materials and how you place your windows.

It right now, all of your windows are reading vertical.

That enhances how tall it is.

You've got some banding at the bottom, but that's only on the first two stories.

Whereas if you did a material change for your top two stories, or you started to gang your windows together so that they start to become ribbons, you also start to break down that massing.

There's many different ways that this can be done.

Um, but right, I'm just trying to give you ideas of how you can do that and the parameters that you've given to us.

Okay, thank you.

And uh the other, you know, just thing to point out, I know it's still a tall building, but the the building is not, you know, part of the building, you know, runs along the fire lane.

So it's not as big of an impact on MLK.

Um, there's you know, a property adjacent to us that's probably going to stay undeveloped.

Um, you know, just due to it's the UNC Board of Trustees and the topography um the and the utilities that are there.

So I mean, still a tall building and definitely appreciate the suggestions.

Um, but it probably won't won't appear like Fordham.

Um, it's just less of a length along the street.

Well, and then uh what's the the other corner?

Um that light view or long view.

Long view.

Yeah.

So you've got a prominent corner.

Um one last thing is that uh you could increase your um your canopy to come out or have a secondary canopy to help set that line.

It doesn't have to go all the way across because I do see that you do have some gardens, but even having a rhythm like that, that also helps to set the scale for the pedestrian that's walking around that corner.

And the benefit is is that are you gonna have retail or something on these lower floors?

Yeah, there's there's a small amount of retail on this bottom level right there at the corner.

So that's something that that's a rhythm that you could pick up for those retailers to bring people in.

So right now, the way that this is showing is that you're streamlining by now, you might not have a lot of retail, but uh if you're trying to bring people into your space, you want something that says, hey, welcome, come in.

Um, which you've got going on with your front door.

So it's like pick up that language elsewhere in the building to help um get the scale more appropriate to the pedestrians that are walking by, and which earlier in your presentation, you're trying to have less cars, all for that.

Um, so make it friendlier to the pedestrians that are walking around or biking around.

Okay.

Um so I the highlights and commissioners, feel free to jump in.

Um things that we've highlighted is the height of the building, and we've given some um comments and suggestions on how maybe that massing could be broken down to be more appropriate for pedestrians and for um uh just humans in general.

Um, we've also talked about materials and that right now this is reading very monolithic.

Um we do like that.

You have incorporated brick.

Um, we have highlighted the lighting and the vegetation, um, and that you have created a public space, but we would like to see more covered areas.

Um basically again being a friendlier to embrace the community that's um that are your neighbors.

Um and uh commissioners have I missed anything on that list.

Or would you like to ask?

Uh I'm good.

I think it was a good summation.

Thank you, Heather.

Yeah, I think you capture Eric.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Ask here is that we can approve this, or we can defer it and have them come back to us.

Now, whether they do or not, that's up to them.

Um but um do I have any commissioners that would like to make a motion?

I make a motion, it's too fair to approve the project.

I second that motion.

Who was that any?

Yes.

Okay.

Okay.

Um, I'm gonna go down the line since those.

Um so you'll either say approved or um that you do not approve.

Okay.

Uh Annie, do you vote?

Um, Jim.

Approve Kelsey.

Um I'm gonna say do not approve.

I'd really like to see some changes with the mass um as you um suggested, but thank you.

John approve Kim.

Um, I'm gonna approve it.

Thanks.

Patrick.

Yeah, I'm I'm gonna approve it as well.

I just think was just with the commentary that I uh I don't think we have any real authority in this situation.

So just would ask the developers to listen to the comments and happy to be a collaborator in the future.

So I'll vote to approve.

Um I uh don't approve.

I feel like this needs more time to work through the elevations so that it is uh more in keeping with Chapel Hill.

I think that um there are some real pluses here, but I think it it needs another, I'd rather defer, but so not approve, but with uh four approvals.

This um uh the motion carries um and you have approval.

All done.

Thank you very much.

Thanks, guys.

Thank you for your presentation.

We will listen, we are listening.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Um we're gonna move on to 11 White Oak Drive.

Thank you, everyone from um the paces for your time.

Thank you.

Okay, do we have a um presentation for White Oak Drive?

We do.

Brian, do you want to share your screen?

We do indeed.

Yep.

My name is Ben.

Uh I work for the developer, the applicant Zom Living Brian Harris is our lead architect, and he will share the presentation.

All right.

Good evening, everyone.

Thanks for having us.

Yeah.

So I'm my name's Brian Harris.

I'm with Drill Design Studio.

We're the architect of record working with Zom Living on this project at 11 North White Oak Drive.

This is at the intersection of old Chapel Hill Road running east-west on the lower end and Northwide Oak Drive running north-south.

This project is a super exciting project for the area.

We um we've got, as you can see, four apartment buildings on the site.

Um along this portion of the project.

Um there's an ephemeral stream, the kind of the blue line you can see here that's on site.

And we're um uh incorporating that into this greenway and uh a multi-use path that is this green line going along here that connects down to this other portion of the site and to uh a dog park.

Um so um uh the buildings kind of lean into the greenway a bit.

Um you can see here this building um kind of presents its longest edge along the greenway.

Uh building three uh you know faces due south and kind of fronts it as well too and does give some street prominence.

Um so building one, two, three, and four are the apartment buildings.

This project has 400 units.

Uh we have 384 flats in the four apartment buildings, and then we have um 16 multi-story units or townhomes.

Um, you can see those this six-unit building here, this and these two five-unit buildings.

There's also a tiny little uh uh outstructure here that's gonna be where the pet spa will be located that will kind of be a nice addition to this pet park.

And this pet park will most likely be the largest one in Chapel Hill.

It's pretty massive.

Um those are some of um the outdoor spaces on that side.

You can see here um in addition, sandwich between building one and two, we're kind of creating like a giant outdoor room.

Uh we've got kind of um a passive recreational area uh on this north end of building one, and then we've got uh a really more of an active kind of outdoor space with uh a pool courtyard, you know, some grilling stations, cabanas.

Um, and so this kind of all kind of creates a nice little hub, um, you know, front kind of porch for the community.

Uh some additional points of connection.

Um, you can see from building two, there's uh a lot of the amenities are 95% of the amenities outside of the pet spa are really kind of dialed in and focused in in this building too.

Um there's a nice um opportunity, and we are providing a connection from uh the lower level of this building up to the northern uh building here, um, a nice meandering path along the greenway.

Um that then extends into a breezeway um that opens into a really kind of lush kind of uh wine garden uh courtyard space.

Um let me pull up some imagery just to kind of show what the landscaping is looking like.

I think this is going to help kind of convey it a bit better.

Um, this is how some of the landscaping is turning out.

And I'm not the landscape architect.

I'm just sharing these images, um, but uh hopefully kind of give you uh kind of a bit of a flavor of where it's headed.

This is that kind of um uh courtyard at uh passive courtyard at building one.

Let me just make one note while you do this, Brian.

The the the landscape architect has a version of the building that they've used in this model, but it's sort of muted, so I wouldn't take architectural cues from uh from the colors you see in the buildings in the background.

Go ahead, Brian.

Yeah, no, that's a great point.

But I will get to the architecture yet.

Please don't pay focus uh attention to that until uh I get to that portion.

Um but I uh, you know, so we've got the pool courtyard here.

Um this is kind of the view you experience uh around that.

Um we've also got um this is the kind of the courtyard at building three, the kind of the wine garden experience that we're creating here.

Um this is the let me share some images of the breezeway.

This is kind of the connection from that greenway up into building three.

So we're extending the lush plantings up into the building and kind of connecting that courtyard and greenway, really again, leaning leaning into that.

Here's another kind of perspective of that.

Um let me go over to the pet park, the pet park.

Uh again, kind of some more visuals for that.

You can see how large this thing is.

Um here's kind of the pet spa.

Um really kind of feels like a nice incorporation to part of the greenway.

Really kind of nice placemaking.

Um so I think that hopefully gives you an overview of much of the site.

Um, two other things to point out about the site are we've got these two tabletop decks.

Um you um off old chapel for this deck, you would enter off high.

Um, so it would be kind of flush with grade.

It would not stand above grade.

Um then uh the way the site is working is you come in um Northwest Oak Drive High, you kind of ramp down low, maybe eight to 10 feet.

Um, and that allows us to tuck up uh a basement level, as you can see here.

Um, so this is a four stories on grade, uh five stories down here.

But what that grade um that sloping of the grade does is it then allows you to enter the lower level of the deck here and then come out the lower level to a surface lot.

Same setup on the northern deck here as well.

Um, you enter north high from the street.

So very little exposure of the deck as experienced from the street, and then you're gradually sloping down, you know, 10 to 12 feet and entering at the lower level.

So the prominence of the deck really is an experience until you get uh down here.

Um so I think that hopefully, and we've got a little small trash enclosure.

Don't want to forget him.

Uh, but yeah, so that I think is the general makeup of the site.

Um just kind of uh some other things just to point out real quick.

Sorry, I meant might have meant uh missed this, but we do have some stoops along Old Chapel Hill uh at these buildings and even the townhomes to help kind of elevate the pedestrian experience along here.

There are some additional private yards along these portions of the building that again kind of allow the tenants to have direct access to the greenway and help activate those spaces a bit more.

All right, I think I covered all the site stuff.

Um I think I'll move on to the architecture.

Um here's an aerial perspective um uh three dimensional to give you a better understanding of how everything is laying out.

Um, and this is a close-up shot of the architecture.

Um so this is that building two with the amenities, and this would be um Northwed Oak Drive going to the left, and this is coming into the parking lot area.

Um so for for the architecture, we really wanted to lean into essentially two styles.

Uh, we've got kind of this gable form, uh, you can see here uh leaning into the more residential uh design architecture that we see.

Um, and we've got masonry uh at the at the bottom level to kind of uh lean into the regional materials.

Um up above this material is um uh a fiber cement product uh called seraclad that um has a wood finish and reads like vertical wood siding.

Um and then we've broken up and grouped up the windows with uh flat panels of fiber fiber cement siding in between.

Um here's uh material palette board.

Um so this is that vertical wood siding that you were seeing.

Um we've also got uh a black brick, um, and then looking at kind of a more neutral uh fiber cement siding palette of kind of an iron ore uh uh off-white and kind of a light gray.

This material that you see down here, this kind of Stockholm oak occurs at the underside of these uh large overhangs that occur at the second uh expression of architecture.

Um I will pull that up here so you can kind of understand how those languages are operating.

So this is that gable form language that I was mentioning earlier.

Uh, this is building one as you're looking on Northwind Oak Drive.

So you've got those, that expression, and then along Old Chapel Hill, you've got the other expression, which is the flat roof uh expression.

And in between, we've got this kind of connective transitional language, uh kind of a lower, kind of simpler parapet design.

Um, and so, but you know, we were trying to uh harmonize and blend these these two languages together with this transitional piece.

So tying the more flat roof modern um design with the more traditional residential uh aesthetic.

Um there's also there's a lot of material variation um and change.

You can see here we've introduced a lot of horizontal banding um to help break down the massing of the four-story and five-story portions.

Um so along Old Chapel Hill, we've got that kind of um we're picking up the uh vertical wood siding and extending that along the base, and then it's picking back up here as well, again, giving more motion rhythm to the eye as they're driving along.

We've got a horizontal band here in the middle to kind of break up that four-story portion of white panel and just some variation in between the windows of siding materials, and then at the top we've got another horizontal band too, of kind of vertical board and batten.

Um so I think that um, you know, all four buildings are predominantly designed in the same manner.

They have these two languages with the connective transition uh in the middle.

Um, and then the townhomes uh kind of uh tie into that.

You can see here they're a little simpler, but they do have the gable form roof um uh alternating between the flat roof form.

Um so picking up uh the same language from the other buildings, but kind of simplifying it.

Um and using the same materials as well.

Um I think that covers it from an architectural perspective.

Um I don't know if there's anything else we want to cover, uh, but I think I think that's everything that I had to add.

Appreciate your guys' time.

Quick question, and it might be for Adam.

I didn't see anything uh in the materials that address site lighting.

And I'm not sure if we're supposed to be looking at that now, or that's something to come down the line.

We do have lighting later in the packet, yeah.

Oh you do have lighting.

Yeah, touch on just a little bit just so that we make sure we cover our bases.

Well, uh, I'm not the landscape arctic, but I believe the way this is set up is that we have mostly pole mounted lighting.

Um I'll go to the fixture spec.

It's similar to the project we were just looking at earlier, pole mounted.

Um, so we have to be dark sky compliant here.

So there's no uplighting whatsoever on the site.

So it's it's a mixture of um this um kind of uh surface uh lot lighting and pedestrian scale lighting.

Um so you can see here that's what's occurring outside of these kind of these black dots, those are those pole-mounted lights, and then there's some additional pole mounted lights.

Um there should be some pedestrian one showing along here.

This might be um slightly outdated, but I do know that there are some along the green way as well, and there will be some along this path.

Um so that so a lot of the so a lot of the site lighting is pole mounted fixtures.

Um, there's a there's a little building mounting lighting, but it's mostly accent building lighting.

Great.

Um that don't know what dark skies is.

Can you do just a quick summary of what that is so that we make sure everybody's in the same pandemic?

Are you asking me?

Yeah, you brought it up.

I can speak to it if you would like to, but um, I better you can see that can't you're probably more the expert.

I mean, I'm not I'm not a learning expert, but I do know that like I yeah, why don't you speak if you know you probably see more of it?

Well, so the idea behind dark skies is that you can be able to see the stars, and so you try to have as little uh ambient lighting as possible, like high-level lighting that um uh disrupts your view of the stars, and so by using low-level lighting, it's kind of like what I was saying earlier.

Um, that allows your eyes to get used to your surroundings.

You can actually see more um Chapel Hill prides itself on being able to see the stars.

So as big projects come in, um, we've been trying to be very cognizant of light pollution.

That's that's my and that's like yes, that's like stars like Michael Jordan, or I'm kidding, I'm joking.

I'm just jumping.

Sorry, sorry.

Yeah, nice tree.

Nice trade, Patrick.

We saw an opportunity here to have a building that was much more um nestled into nature than some of the properties that you know you could find in a very short distance from us.

We thought that that would be a great benefit.

So all of our amenities are leaning toward and into those things.

Uh the dog park amenity, the the pathway that goes into building three from uh from the the stream area.

We've really tried to say this is an advantage for our site and for the resident experience.

And so um you we don't have pictures of our gym, but our gym is all oriented toward that area.

It's it's sort of um heavy wood look, and so to the greatest extent possible, we've uh we wanted it to have a modern feel.

So that's where some of the flat roof came in.

Uh, but trying to lean into that nature component, which dark sky is an important uh component of any any time we can.

Great.

Why don't we get to some questions?

Um Kim, would you like to start us off?

Uh no, I would just like to say that I really appreciate the um details that you guys put into the site design.

This seems really well done with a lot of um thoughts like you said, and how to work it into the existing site and keep it within nature.

It it's a really nice um development, and it's refreshing to see this sort of detail put into a design.

Um, as you guys am probably aware, we we don't get a lot of that lately.

And so um this is I'm very impressed with this.

So thank you very much for sharing this with us.

Great to hear.

Uh John, do you have questions?

I don't I don't really have questions at this time.

Uh no.

I have comments, but I don't I don't have questions.

I appreciate that, John.

Thank you for holding on.

Oh Kelsey.

Yeah, sorry.

My question is, is the greenway existing?

Are you we are working within an existing one?

I was I was trying to pull it up at Google Maps and Greenway.

We're using Greenway in a in a lowercase uh sense, not an uppercase sense, but um and to Brian's point, we probably should have had landscape join as well.

Brian, do you recall if there is a plan for um the extent?

So we're we're showing the the stub there on the west, and there's a new sort of cowan boulevard there, but I can't recall um what plan, you know, immediately to our west, you'll see there's two retention ponds there.

I I suppose it may be a plan to snake through it.

Um but uh I I regret that I don't I can't recall.

A year ago I would have been able to tell you, but I can't recall what the broader plan is.

But we've certainly is it a town?

Would it be a town managed, like a part of the official greenway system or a light greenway that conveniently connects these two things, which you know, I'll call it.

I believe it's I believe it's a public easement on a private greenway.

Okay, great.

I believe I I'm I'll I'll go back and check.

But um, it's certainly something that we wanted to build for our own sake.

Um, and to the extent that someone else can get use out of it, all the better.

Okay, great.

And then my other question, um it looked like there was quite a bit of you know, fencing as particularly, and I understand you know, public-private space, there's a delineation, but can you talk through like the selection of um the fencing to kind of cordon off the difference between the you know the greenway area and maybe where you had the the dog park and the the beautiful wine lounge, outdoor wine lounge that I won't be able to uh partake in unless I move there?

No.

You can absolutely partake in it.

Um we so on the dog park area.

Can you flip back to that, Brian?

Yeah, uh, I don't know what slide that is.

Yeah, so it's a bit tricky.

We you know, we've got this uh this really cool hangout, this this building where it's a pet spa, but we thought, well, you're you know, you're all that there needs to be a place to, as a recent dog owner, be nice to have the place to sit down and talk.

So we we put that area, which Brian, can you flip to yeah, you can sort of see it there.

So that was also an area that uh seemed like you know, if people are gonna be sitting here, they're going to have their dogs.

And uh so this is probably you know, I think you can see there, we're we're trying to ensure that the uh the sidewalk remains something that you can you know use outside of this park.

It does get a little I'd have to pull up the plan to refresh my memory, but we were trying to maximize the size of this area, different areas, different dogs socializing, but um is is that answering your question asking about it?

Yeah, I guess um no, I appreciate the um that the fence is transparent, um, and that there's still visibility between you know the the spaces.

Um I just wanted to make sure it wasn't like a fence didn't necessarily prevent egress on that greenway.

I just wasn't able to be clear.

I wasn't able to see that on the site.

No, and actually, this is a different path.

If you'll flip back to the uh Brian, if you'll flip back, uh so there's sort of two, so there's a sidewalk, if you'll see there, where it says greenway.

Greenway is north of it, and the sidewalk is south.

So we're sort of and this is an this is an early uh an early plan, but this is sort of what we've uh carried through.

Um that uh so those are two slightly different um two slightly different things.

And then the trees along the stream um that are like less defined in this plan.

Are those the existing vegetation?

It is great.

We have just uh a couple which uh we're not gonna uh by building two, which um I think just for constructibility reasons, but uh the the overwhelming majority of the trees in that buffer are staying.

Okay, great.

Thank you so much.

Uh Jen.

I was just curious.

Uh I I was drawn to the stream coursing through your project.

Was that an asset or liability?

And how did that impact your uh planning?

The stream.

Oh, we we started with that, and it sort of uh it led to the design that you see here.

That's not all I mean, it worked out really well here.

Sometimes it's you know, in a position in a position that's uh not as accommodating, but uh you know, the team did a great job in finding a way to design with it as the centerpiece and not as a not as a nuisance.

It's very nice.

We we um this path has has been modified just a little bit.

So you zoom in there, Brian, you see number 12.

So when we drew this, we weren't quite sure, you know, what path that would take.

And we went out there with the surveyor and our horticulturalist and basically said what would be the nicest way to walk from this exact spot to that spot and plotted that out.

So on the site plan, it's tailored to you know what's the nicest walk given the existing trees and plants and all that sort of thing.

So um it's something that we have let leaned into more and more over the course of the project.

This is not the Nile River, I should say, so it's uh it's uh it's a modest stream, but it's it's nice.

No, that's good.

No, you did a nice job.

I think it brings the outdoors to a project.

All right, Jim, you good?

Um, I just want to echo everyone else.

This is beautiful.

Um, thank you so much for your presentation.

Um, I just have one question on not even about community design, but looking at the first page of the site plan, it seems like White Oak Drive is planned to connect to an unnamed street A.

So currently White Oak Drive doesn't connect to anything.

So are you operating under the assumption that maybe in the future that White Oak Drive will connect to a future road?

Or yeah.

So um uh what we've got grayed out here.

So on the southwest is Ernie Brown's um East Lake View project.

On the east is their Chapel Hill Crossing project, and the northwest is a project called Meridian Lakeview, which broke ground, I think two months ago.

And so they have that street A is not public, but there is a uh public, it's not built to public standard, but there's a public easement over it.

And if you go west on Street A and you turn right at that intersection, I don't have a I can't annotate, but if you turn right at that intersection, that takes you right out to 15501.

So that is uh a way that if you're on 15501, you could turn left basically at the north uh eastern northwestern corner of this plan you see here, and then turn left onto Street A and then come down White Oak.

So that street will exist uh by the time we break ground here in a bit, that street will have at least been formed.

So it's it's definitely coming.

Wow, that's really interesting.

I'm a transportation planner, so that was my initial thought.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

It's uh it's a critical connection.

No more questions for me.

Patrick, do you have any questions?

No, no questions.

Actually, I do.

What is the what I'll save my uh comments for the comment period, but what is the facade of the uh parking deck, the non-community parking deck?

What is a facade of that?

Well, so it's uh and you may have already showed us it.

Sure, I beg your pardon if you did.

We haven't uh if I think uh so as and Brian, maybe you could mention this.

It at certain places there is no facade, it sort of blends into the hill where you know the site basically does this.

So from building one, Old Chapel Hill is the high point, and it slopes down toward the uh stream, and then it goes up from there.

And so at different points there is no facade, it's almost flush.

In the in the places where it's not flush, we're doing a heavy landscaping barrier.

And I think Brian, we're still sort of talking about maybe a light treatment or a uh a paint color that will uh help us de-emphasize it.

But at certain points there is no facade, and the other points it's heavily landscaped.

Okay.

Okay, I'll say my comments for the contrary, but a beautiful job on this.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Um I think uh my commissioner said I actually did um so uh we'll go to public comment.

Did we lose Adam?

Marquise, can you see anything on your end?

Okay, if there's public out there and you would like to uh comment or ask questions, if you can put it in the chat, that would be great.

Um Adams texting for several let's roll into comments and Patrick Valentine.

Sorry, was that for me?

It was for Patrick, but Kelsey, you can go ahead.

Can you guys hear me?

Uh we can now, Patrick, go for it.

Oh, I was just saying, beautiful project.

Thank you so much for the way you've thoughtfully designed this and love the green spaces, love the dog spa.

Don't know the permissibility of bringing my dog over there, but it's uh, you know, it's some a place I'd want to live.

So nice job.

Thank you.

Uh Kelsey, you want to go.

Um, yeah, comments just uh echo what other folks said.

I think it's a really nice job.

So thank you for bringing it.

Thank you for maintaining the vegetation um and really considering canopy um throughout this project as well as scale.

So thank you so much.

Great.

And can I make one more comment?

Sorry, I got um we've been big on public art, and so this this project's already a home home run.

It would be a grand slam if you guys would consider some public art, but that's uh obviously to your discretion, but uh, but just public art would be uh a uh a great I agree.

Yeah, we should get that on the agenda.

Uh Brian, I agree that would be the exclamation point.

Uh Annie, do you have comment?

Yeah, I just like to echo Patrick.

I completely agree.

And I love the the stream and greenway or stream light, greenway light.

I think it's uh it's a great way to achieve the goals of this commission.

Wonderful.

Jim.

No, no, I don't have much more to add.

We did a nice job.

The exterior try to mitigate height that was a big part of our discussion on the last project and uh another asset to the community of Chapel Hill.

John I'm gonna I I just have uh one comment.

I I really appreciate the the way the the massing of the building and the elevations and the um uh yeah, just especially the massing of the building, how you brought the gables into it, and then you have some areas next to the gables that drop down slightly.

There's a lot of nice detail with the architecture itself, sort of has some ins and outs and reveals and stuff.

So I I appreciate the massing, but I'm I'm just gonna make one comment, which is usually Patrick's comment.

So I'm just gonna say um uh and the I'm asking this is kind of a question just for my own education because I'm not familiar with this in North Carolina too much.

But so you have this uh black brick, and so um what I'm familiar with in North Carolina, um, and it specifically in this area, and it's all has to do with iron rich clay that is here.

This area is famous for red brick.

So um, I mean, that's just that's actually part of the soil here.

Um so but I'm not sure, you know, maybe there's a historic precedent for black brick.

I'm not sure.

I know that you know that's popular in urban areas now, and it's not you know, if you just burn the brick more, you've got black brick.

But uh I was just curious about that black brick, and my my main comment would be um I'd rather see it be red brick, and I know that that may be uh some people may think that's boring, or it's just too similar to everything else.

Um yada yada, but that's actually the regional color.

So I would rather see red brick.

Then uh John calls me Patrick Red Brick Brennan.

Uh like a red brick comment I've heard tonight.

Yeah, yeah.

I love red brick.

Um, and I I hear you.

We when we started designing the project, we um we were coming off designing a project in Carrie, and I said this is not Carrie, and I want to sort of understand what's what's in the water here, and uh and and I think it was more the the nature setting than the Chapel Hill setting, maybe that sort of won the day, and so we ended up sort of with some Scandinavian precedence that we were looking at.

Uh, and I think that's probably where the um where the black brick came in.

I hear you on the red brick.

I love uh red brick as well.

It's it's each side is its context.

We have a building that we finished in Durham recently.

It's actually mostly white brick, and that's because it was facing north, and we said this thing is not gonna have a lot of direct sunlight, so we don't want it to go dark.

We want it to we want to brighten it up as much as we can, so we want the white brick.

Um and so I uh I hear you though.

I I love I love red brick.

Um I don't know if I have the perfect answer for that.

I I think it was mostly um the precedence that the design team had and this specific setting.

Um is is what tipped us in the direction of the darker brick, which I suspect is also gonna be local.

Um just given the cost of shipping bricks, but um I'm sure the triangle brick makes oh, there's I think there's actually two brick companies in this area.

I'm sure a triangle brick makes a black brick, and I know that that's very trendy now, especially for commercial projects, right?

Um, but that's that's just my comment.

We have another we have another Chapel Hill project where uh I'm gonna try to take this red brick comment to heart and bring something back that's that's uh that's the loop on that comment.

If you did, you'd be our hero.

That would be like speaking you're speaking our language, man.

Those are goals, those are things to strive for, Patrick.

Yeah, uh Kim, do you have comment?

No, just what I said earlier.

I just think this is really well thought out and um project, and it's refreshing to see.

So thank you.

Yeah, ditto Ditto.

Um, so I will my comments are um first of all, I really appreciate appreciate your use of language.

Um, I can see like through the um roofs, how you have taken the vernacular of our area, and that that is reflected in your buildings, and you just have done a great job with breaking down the massing of these buildings.

We can look at your building three that um is kind of in line with what the first um project was, but you've really taken to heart how to break that down so it doesn't feel massive.

Um your use of material materials is beautiful, and um and it really uh highlights how you can use scale so that um it brings a human communication connection together um with nature.

I love that you are leaning into that, and that was part of what um was the catalyst for your design, and it shows in all of your buildings and how the landscaping is coming together.

Um and it really shows how much thought and um uh that you were just very considerate of all the different aspects.

It's I mean, this has a lot of moving parts, um, and it really shows how with um you've got uh very defined framework that each building is relating back to and therefore the whole development development holds as a community and fits within our community, it's just wonderful.

Um on the brick comment, I would say um at triangle brick, our local brick folks.

There are bricks that aren't black, but are on the darker shade.

So if you're looking to pull like from the bark or the trees, right?

Um that also would probably be less trendy, and yet give a little bit of a nod to that red brick and make a couple of these people in the commission really happy.

Right, but your use of um colors, it's um it's very purposeful, and um and I think that goes a long way.

And um and I think that goes a long way.

I think we're ready to um ask for a motion um I'd like to motion for approval.

A second motion to approve okay yeah everybody go down the list real quick Patrick.

Aye.

Annie I approve Jim yes Kelsey approve John approve.

Aye.

And I approve as well.

Thank you so much for bringing such a beautiful project to us.

Oh we appreciate the feedback and uh look forward to bringing a red brick dream next time for our next project thanks so much guys thank you guys great thank you so much.

Bye.

Okay I feel like a new business item vacant seats um Adam I I need you to uh run us through this one yeah sure um so we've got two applicants that are um that we've provided applications for those are the ones that just come in through our normal course of intake um we need to get recommendations to council like ASAP so um we obviously with the announcements tonight we're gonna have two commissioners who are rolling off at the end of June that will leave us five um which is enough for quorum so if the two applicants that are presented tonight do not um check boxes for the for our current commissioners and you don't want to recommend anybody you certainly don't have to um but if you want to we wanted to make sure to get those into council as quickly as we could so that we could uh get them processed and when we have our uh the two commit when we have the two commissioners who spoke earlier tonight roll off at the end of June in August we'll be ready to sort of hit the ground running and won't have to go through that council process process so the recommendation will come from the CDC to council and then they'll they'll take that recommendation and determine how they feel about those two applicants as well so you've got two in front of you tonight we're asking you to just if you have discussion about them that's fine um if you feel good about them and want to just say we motion to approve both of them that's fine if you want to motion to nah that's fine or heather my here's my opinion on this I think anybody who raises their hand to serve we should we should motion to approve I think to me it's an easy discussion.

Yeah um well my question is is that um have we been given these um applications because I haven't seen anything come across there was um uh information bios on all the people both people okay somehow I did I don't think I I didn't see the I didn't get that myself um those of you that were able to see them can you guys vouch for them or give the rest of us kind of a quick synopsis and um because I I don't feel confident in being able to um vote or not vote when I don't know what I'm voting for that doesn't doesn't seem like a smart thing to do and Adam if you are able to resend quickly that's an option as well because I I hear you yeah I think um Annie also provided a tab uh a link if you click on that link and then that'll take you to like a town page and you'll see CDC applications in blue on the left if you click on that that will take you to the PDF sorry for the background noise but that'll take you to that PDF.

Adam is there not a way for you to pull up that PDF and just share it do a share screen with with us on the application I'm sorry.

Hold on buddy hold on hold time yes hold on one second I can do that just give me a second thank you thank you thank you thanks for working with us I appreciate it you're welcome I don't think I'm the one who needs I think I'm the one who needs to be thankful here so just hang tight uh applications okay are you seeing my screen by chance there we go we're seeing it now yum okay so we have Kelly Mills yes we have kill I can maybe do a high level here and I'm that would be great yeah sorry Kelly um and then each of these applications most of you are probably familiar like it's sort of asked about your history what information you have um and and how you sort of feel like you will fit within the commission um I don't think either of these applicants have what I would classify as direct experience in the in like a design field um and well actually that says that here at the bottom

Yeah, sorry.

Kelly, um, and then each of these applications, most of you are probably familiar, like it's sort of asked about your history, what information you have, um, and and how you sort of feel like you will fit within the commission.

Um I don't think either of these applicants have what I would classify as direct experience in like a design field.

Um, and well, actually, that says that here at the bottom for this one.

Um, maybe it's best if I just leave, I'll leave this up on the page for like 15 seconds, maybe let you skim as opposed to me doing a reading, you can pick out the pieces that jump out to you, and then we'll move to the next person's name, and then we'll go to their page that talks about their interests.

So maybe I'll just be quiet for a second.

Hey, Adam, let me just quick question.

Do we have any other applicants?

We only have two.

And if these two aren't nominated, we don't have quorum, right?

With the two people who no, we have four quorum is four.

So if nobody is recommended, um, or council doesn't accept your recommendation, you will still have five starting in August, and that still makes forum.

Okay, okay.

What's the second candidate?

Uh so this is uh Rachel's second one.

I will just um if I can get my screen to work, I'll scroll down to her sort of scroll down to her bio page.

Which doesn't look like there was a lot included there.

You can see like what she wrote at the bottom that talks about um relevant qualifications or applications sort of uh desires.

So um that's what we've got for her.

Uh let me just skip, make sure I'm not missing, but that's it.

I would just move that we I'd make a motion to you know, accept both of these applicants and propose and and uh endorse them to town council.

Um not so fast.

Can we talk about these real quick?

Um so we've got Kelly Mills who has uh background in nonprofits, residents does not have um design background, but is interested in being on the commission, and then we have Rachel, who is a primary care physician, um, and hears concerns and what affects their health and loves the outdoors.

Um and loves Chapel Hill and finds that it's one of the most beautiful towns we have lived in.

Um I guess my question, Adam, is what is the likelihood of other candidates coming forward.

For me to put a percentage on that, I would say relatively low.

We haven't had a ton of applicants over the last three or four years, at least not in a sort of flooded format.

So if you ask me to bet, I would say relatively low.

Okay.

So we have two candidates in front of us that would like to do their civic duty.

Um it's unlikely that we're gonna have a flood of people coming in.

And um, I'm actually gonna recuse myself from um voting in this, being that I'm one of the ones that's rolling off.

Um, but I uh would like to hear from uh the commissioners how they feel.

Like, do they want to fill these two spots?

Annie, please go ahead.

Um, I will also be recusing myself for the same reasons, Heather.

Um, but I do have some thoughts because I did read through these, and I overall agree with if anybody wants to their civic duty and they are able, then I think that they should.

Um my only concern is that very apparently um of all the people who are presently on this board, I have the least amount of experience, but I would still identify as being in this field and being um fluent enough to be able to participate.

And I still struggle a lot.

Um, it's a huge growth experience.

There's a big gap.

This is a very technical commission in my opinion.

Um, and that's someone coming from somebody who works adjacently to this, looks at site plans relatively often.

And so my one anxiety is I'm looking at people who seem like they have even less uh experience and knowledge than I do, and um more out of concern uh for them is I just worry that um yeah, just I just worry that it might be almost too much of an experience to maybe contribute effectively is my only qualm.

Does anybody else have comment or would like to my comment?

My comment is kind of like I said earlier.

I think if anybody's willing to raise their hand and serve that we should very sympathetically take that application and uh I look forward to supporting both these uh applicants.

Great.

Um is the is there a certain period when people have to apply, or then there's a limitation, or we we put out sort of regular um emails of interest for lack of a better term, social media, email blasts, talent talk, those types of things.

I think we do do a push every year at some point in time, though I can't tell you exactly when that is.

So for me, it feels like more of a just a consistent um a consistent effort across the board, and then those are just fed to me.

I don't know like actually how or when these came in.

Um those are given to us by our admin staff.

Yeah.

Um, and then those go to y'all, and then when you send me the recommendation, I send it back to that person who then sends it to council.

So a little bit of a runaround, but um yeah, it's sort of a consistent effort across the year.

Um I guess second question is who are the people that need to vote on this?

All of us can vote, Jim.

Um, but Annie, we need to have at least four.

We have four if Annie and I recuse ourselves from it.

We have five members right now that are that would be voting.

Okay, are are you and Annie leaving or I thought Annie just came with me?

You you miss the beginning announcements.

So um my tenure is coming to a close June 30th, and I'm gonna be rolling off.

Um, and Annie is moving out of state, and so she is also um rolling off.

So we have two seats on the commission that um if we would like to fill, um we can.

We've got two candidates that are in front of us.

Um, and if we would what the next step would be is uh we can vote on either one or both together to send as a recommendation to the council, or we can say um uh we don't want either one of these and send that recommendation to the council.

Well, I guess my only concern um just expanding on what you guys have already said.

Uh my only concern is that um this particular commission uh involves requires the ability to look at drawings and understand drawings and have some kind of understanding at least about the tech some technic technical issues.

Um so that would be my only concern uh is having people that don't really have any background in looking at that stuff.

Um which is which you've already said um but on the other hand, I do appreciate what Patrick said.

I mean, if people want to participate, they shouldn't be allowed to participate.

Um yeah, I guess I would and I I apologize.

I'm I'm trying to kind of push the meeting to a close selfishly because my anniversary, so my wife is sitting at the table in there, but yeah, I I have to I have to leave in like five minutes.

I would make a motion that we approve both these candidates and recommended council.

Do we have a second?

Okay, I'll second.

I have did not have me chance to make a comment.

I think I would go back.

Uh I would echo Patrick's comment earlier in this session or the years, we were going to have an educational system.

I think if uh Adam, you know, would never came to pass.

I think if we put some effort into doing a little in-service education with the staff uh the commission members, that would go a long way in bringing people up to speed according to the design commission requirements.

That's my lot of sense, Jim.

Jim, apologies for not giving you a chance to to make comments.

Apologies about that.

Okay.

So right now on the floor, we had a motion by Patrick.

It was seconded by John.

And now we're gonna um vote for approval for expediency.

If you approve, please put your um give us a hands up.

I've got three yes.

Um sorry, I I'm on the phone here.

I can't I can't put my I'm not sure how to put the hand up, but I vote.

Yes.

I yeah.

Okay, that carries uh Kelsey had deferred to the majority.

So um I with that, um, the commission is recommending both of the candidates be taken to the council for approval.

And with that, I would like to adjourn this meeting.

Second.

All right, thank you so much.

Appreciate your service.

Heather, do we have to we I guess we'll vote later on the other matter, huh?

Uh uh, yes.

That would so um, but that is a good um uh segue uh for next month.

Um when we come back, we will need to um vote on who will be taking over as chair and co-chair.

So be thinking through that, please.

You know, um, can I just make one comment?

Yeah, this is not total, this is off the record comment.

You know, I think that uh that first applicant that I saw that had the monumental building, you know that I think they kind of missed a design opportunity.

Because I think if they had taken if they had simply, I mean uh you all probably will not like this.

But if they had taken their entire facade of the whole building and done this really vibrant, um really vibrant like mural on the whole thing, uh some kind of crazy abstract pattern with all kinds of colors all over it.

I think that actually would be a cool looking building.

I think they missed their missed an opportunity, just make the whole thing gray.

It's it's kind of a they really missed an opportunity.

Well, I would encourage you guys that as you move forward, don't hold back on those comments.

These developers or anybody that's coming in front of us, the reason why we're here is to be able to give those comments, and we don't know which ones are gonna stick and which ones are they're just gonna let go in one ear and out the other.

Um, so I would encourage you, like you have thoughts like that.

That's what our comment period is for.

Just always be respectful.

That's it.

Um, I also have to go.

So I um I will see you guys next month, and I appreciate you all and all of your time.

Yeah, thanks, Heather.

Thank you.