All right, like to call this meeting to order, please.

Hang on one second.

Okay.

So we're gonna start with a roll call.

Josh Gerlitz.

Here.

Laura Moore.

Here.

Brian Daniels.

Here.

I'm Don Tice.

I'm here, and Glenn Conley is not here.

So there are four of us this evening.

And this month, the month of May, is the uh Asian American and Pacific Island Heritage Month as well as Jewish American Heritage Month and National Historic Preservation Month.

So I have a um a quick read here, an acknowledgement.

Before we begin this evening's meeting, the Historic District Commission would like to recognize several important observances that take place in May.

This month is Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month, Jewish American Heritage Month, and National Historic Preservation Month.

Each offers an opportunity to reflect on the diverse stories, contributions, and places that shape our shared heritage.

Asian American and Pacific Islander communities have influenced North Carolina for more than a century through scholarship, entrepreneurship, arts, and public service.

At Chapel Hill and UNC, AAPI students and faculty have been part of the community since the late 19th century and early 20th centuries, helping build international academic connections and contributing to the cultural and civic life of our town.

Their work across research, medicine, small business, and community organizations continues to strengthen Chapel Hill today.

We also recognize Jewish American Heritage Month, honoring over 350 years of Jewish life in the United States.

Jewish communities have been present in North Carolina since the early 1800s, contributing to commerce, education, and civic leadership across the state.

In Chapel Hill institutions such as UNC Halil and local synagogues have played important roles in fostering culture, scholarship, service, and community connection.

Jewish residents and leaders have helped shape the town's academic, artistic, and social landscape.

Finally, May is National Historic Preservation Month, established to create the places, stories, and cultural traditions that help define our communities.

Here in Chapel Hill, preservation efforts have been protected, have been protected significant historic districts, landmarks, and landscapes that tell the story of the town's growth and many communities that built it.

As a commission, this month reminds us of the importance of carefully stewarding these resources so that they will continue to inform and enrich future generations.

We honor the individuals, families, and heritage traditions that have contributed to the history we are entrusted to preserve.

Okay, so Secretary, read the procedures, please.

I'll now read into the record the following.

The commission operates under NC General Statutes 160D-940, which gives local governments historic preservation authority, and the Chapel Hill Land Use Management Ordinance, including Article III, which establish the local historic districts and sets forth regulations governing them.

And the Chapel Hill Historic District's design principles and standards, which sets forth standards for changes in the historic districts and the rules of procedure adopted by the Chapel Hill Historic District Commission, as well as the significance reports from all three historic districts and photographs.

I also call to your attention each of the applications and associated materials in your agenda packet.

All of these items are hereby entered into the record.

Thank you.

Okay, thank you very much.

I'm gonna read the public charge before we get started.

The advisory body pledges its respect to the public.

The body asks the public to conduct themselves in a respectful, courteous manner, both with the body and with fellow members of the public.

Should any member of the body or any member of the public fail to observe this charge at any time?

The chair will ask the offending person to leave the meeting until that individual gains personal control.

Should decorum fail to be restored, the chair will recess the meeting until a genuine commitment to this public charge is observed.

Property owners may represent themselves or be represented by attorney.

However, professionals such as architects, engineers, designers, and others may provide factual evidence and expert opinions so far as they are qualified, but not legal arguments on behalf of the property owner.

Okay, now approval of the agenda.

So I I'd like to move that we approve the agenda with two addendums.

Consideration of the decision for 308 West Cameron, which was distributed earlier today by Kevin for discussion with the commission.

And then last on the agenda discussion of recruitment efforts for the historic district commission.

Can we also add a discussion about our summer break?

We'd also like to add a discussion about summer break.

Can I add one other item to that?

Sure.

I would like to add a brief discussion on the wording of our public charge.

Before we vote, Brian, are you intending to add the 308 West Camera Break decision as a consent agenda item or about new business for our discussion?

Consent agenda.

Yep.

Thank you very much.

So can uh someone give them motion or can I second it?

There you go.

I'll second that.

All right, we have a second.

Okay, all in favor?

Say aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Okay, all opposed.

No.

Soy street, nothing would be visible from that front street.

So this is uh aerial view.

Um the panels would be roughly approximately 420 square feet over the the ceiling or the roof.

Um, choosing matte black that would match the uh the panels of the new uh shingles, uh anti reflective technology, flush mounted and on real rear slopes.

So this is uh view of the front facing Macaulay Street where no panels would be from today or yesterday.

Uh this is a side view.

And here are the proposed solar panel locations with the um I'm gonna come over here.

And so this would be the original part of the house on the rear roof, and then this is the rear roof.

Which is in the driveway, so not visible at all from the street and also blocked by uh trees for the condo next door.

And here's a closer look at that um ceiling or the roof location here from the driveway where the chimney is just below the chimney.

This is the view from the back of the house.

Um, so showing what uh might be visible is this small amount on the new renovation, and then some of the panel locations might be peeking through from the original building.

And a current view of the back of the house.

This is the east elevation view.

And you can see from the side the panels would be located here on the original structure of the house.

Also not visible from the street.

Um we're working with yes, solar solutions.

Um, we have someone here tonight who has more information on technical details if there are any questions moving forward.

But we are focusing on rear slopes only, flush-mounted panels that would lie flush to the roof plane, um, not visible from the primary street, and fully reversible technology.

Some precedents in the neighborhood that we looked at were six Briar Ridge Lane.

This one might be the most um uh similar to what we're we're proposing in that the um the panels are not visible from the front historic street, but here you can see they're visible from the side street, which is outside the historic district overlay.

Uh another precedent from is Vance Street.

This is the image from the guidelines, the Chapel Hill guidelines from the side.

This is visible from ransom.

And this is the same house with the panels in the front viewable from Vance Street, which is still within the historic overlay.

Um, and I will say we walk by this house for years, and I never even noticed there were solar panels until we went looking for them.

Uh this is the house that's directly behind our house on um Brookside Drive.

It's not in the historic district, but it's right on the outside boundaries, um, just showing that it's um in the neighborhood.

Our neighbor has them in their their yard facing the Brookside Drive.

So some of the standards that we were looking to meet um were that they be flush mounted, low profile, um close to the existing roof surface to minimize visual impact and the protrusion protrusion of no more than four inches from the surface of the existing roof plane.

Uh color compatibility.

So we have a uh dark shingles and we have chosen black uh mat and anti-reflective finish that would closely match the roof uh existing material.

Um the setback, uh they'll all be set back from the roof edges to reduce visibility from the public right away and maintain the bus uh building's historic appearance.

And the solar ray will not extend above the roof ridge or alter the existing roof form, ensuring no disruption to the architectural character of the structure.

And the concealment of other equipment, all associated conduit and electrical components will be routed internally or along non-visible elevations that no wiring or equipment is visual visible from the street, and then the batteries placed in the driveway area.

So with this, we request that you would grant permission and the certificate of appropriateness for our solar panels on 403 Macaulay, and I open up to questions and also our technical expert.

Does anybody have any questions?

I don't have any.

Well, it's a very complete presentation.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

That is not always the case, and we we really do appreciate that.

Very thoughtful.

Appreciate that.

Are there is well, I can see there's no one from the public that I need to call if there's any public comment.

There is none.

Well, we'll close this portion of the evidentiary hearing then and have discussion.

There you go.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I appreciate it.

Okay, Josh, you want to weigh in?

Being the solar expert that you are.

Well, I will weigh in.

Um I think it's a it's a perfectly good application.

Um they have um clearly reviewed the standards and um complied with the standards.

And as an aside, I'm gonna tell you you're gonna love the Power Wall three.

It is cool.

It is really neat, and you're gonna love it.

I have one.

Um those are my comments.

So I've got to ask the Power Wall Three.

What brand is that?

Is that Tesla?

That's a Tesla.

I tell Tesla Tesla.

Excellent.

Good to know.

And it it is powerful, and it it carries you through blackouts and you know, energy blips and it's really pretty neat.

Okay.

Good to know.

Uh does anybody want to make a motion?

I will make a motion.

Kevin, should I be making the congruity motion and the COA motion at the same time?

Okay.

Uh so I moved that the application at uh 403 Macaulay Street is not incongruous with the special character of the historic district according to the application of the relevant provisions of the LUMO and HTC's design standards based upon the facts presented in the record.

I further move that we direct the attorney and town staff to prepare a proposed written decision summarizing HTC's approval of the CO application to present at the proposed written decision, which would be our next meeting date, so we can issue the COA.

So there's a second.

I second.

All in favor, say aye.

Aye.

Aye.

All opposed.

There you go.

Yeah.

Thank you very much.

Okay.

So next our discussion items is what's left for this evening.

Well, let's start with your amended item, Brian.

Uh recruitment.

Yes, recruitment.

So uh Josh, I think you are timing out of your time on the HTC, which breaks my heart, but it is the rules.

It is the rules.

So I think with with Josh timing out over the summer, that leaves us with four, which feels dangerously low.

And so I think we need to ramp up our recruitment efforts to ensure that we can uh hold meetings with confidence and that it's not impossible for Shawnee and Anna Scott to get a quorum to move to move business forward.

Um in the officer meeting a little bit earlier today.

Um we talked about sort of efforts that we could undertake to try to stimulate um interest.

Um because there are a um abundance of applications to the planning commission, if I'm if I'm not mistaken.

I think Sharika and Anna Scott were um wondering whether or not we'd want to ask folks that are applying to the planning commission that perhaps don't get seated to consider an HTC opportunity.

So I think that's kind of one really good, really good idea.

Um Laura, I think you and Josh have both you have familiarity with other commissions the town has.

I think you've sat on the um CD on the CDC.

And I know some of those commissions have either been decommissioned or their size has been shrunk.

So I wonder if there's anybody that you know has contributed to town, like is interested in in serving in the town before that maybe somebody that would be a good somebody we could call and say, hey, would you be interested in serving again?

So just sort of trying to think a little bit open-mindedly about how we stimulate interest.

Um Josh, I think we have benefited from the fact that you live in the historic district and you have such history there, but you and Don have a lot of history in the historic district.

Um so I've reached out to a couple I know that was in the HDC, Alan and Frank Proctor.

I think it's okay to talk names.

I reached out to Ellen today, who's an awesome attorney.

So I think she would be a really nice compliment to the role I feel like Nancy has played before.

Um, and actually, as we were sitting down, Laura and I were talking a little bit about composition of the commission, having folks that have a technical background that the three of you have.

I find really useful.

I think having you know a lawyer or two in the mix is also quite helpful.

Um I think that was we just wanted to remind everybody that we're looking.

Essentially, you know.

And uh I'm gonna ask a um a realtor and uh a contractor.

Oh, that's good.

Just uh just to say love to have a good contract, particularly one that's worked in the historic district, but she probably is gonna be too busy with kids and everything, but we'll give it a shot.

Well busy people actually know how to manage their time.

Yeah, this is true in you know this is and be efficient in commission meetings, yeah.

Um the the other thing I wondered about was whether or not um it'd be appropriate for us to reach out to Elizabeth as our um liaison from the council to ask if she has any recommendations.

I know she's a business owner in town, she may know folks, like just I think getting the work out is probably the most effective way to call her.

Do you want me to call her?

Okay.

If you call her, I'll call Camille and ask the same question.

All right, very good.

All right.

I will do that.

All good ideas, all good ideas because we desperately need four is thin.

It is then.

Um, let's go to the next next amended item, Josh, that you can see.

Don't and Brian, we did talk about in our officers check-in, maybe selecting some of you all to thank you, do interviews.

Yep, thank you.

Thank you for that reminder.

So uh I think we sat Glenn on a break.

So I think she may have applied over the summer, if I'm not mistaken.

And so Nancy and I interviewed her and recommended her.

So we actually voted on her as a candidate.

Um, and she did not come in front of the full commission.

So I think that recommendation is smart, it just allows us to kind of speed speed things up because we are going to talk about a break over the summer.

So I'm I'm happy to volunteer to chair that subcommittee.

I'd also ask Glenn to join me because that was the experience that she had, and we just joked a bit that we're just gonna volunteer voluntel her that we want her to do that because she's not here tonight.

But I know she's very amenable to being helpful, so I will reach out to Glenn and ask her to help with that when we have candidates that come through.

Yeah, sounds good.

And just having two is fine, I guess.

Okay.

If you're if you all are okay with that.

Oh, anything less than four is three, two, however many you want, just not four, because then that's a public meeting.

Yeah.

And I don't know if you need a motion to create the subcommittee.

If it's a discussion item, I I think that'd be best practice.

Okay.

I would agree.

That's perhaps real quick.

You wanted to make a quick comment about the public charge.

Yeah, I think that our experience last at our um special meeting kind of interest.

And after commission may whether or not the attorney um strict role discussed this with Kevin that the attorneys were not presenting.

They didn't perceive that they were presenting evidence.

Yeah, for clarity, factual evidence is one thing.

Oh, sorry, factual evidence is one thing, and legal agreements or arguments is another.

So we're talking about factual versus legal.

So my feeling is that we should amend the public charge to make it very clear that um attorneys are giving us legal ev legal advice or legal evidence rather than factual evidence.

And I think Kevin and staff are willing to work on this.

I know Kevin is.

I haven't asked staff.

Kevin is willing to work on this to make that clear.

Yeah, and this might be supplemental that takes a little bit of nuance kind of because in theory, it is theoretically possible that uh an attorney could represent a client and could present.

You need to talk a little closer to your mic.

Thank you.

It's possible and it happens from time to time that an attorney can represent a client and testify about facts within their personal knowledge on behalf of their client.

Now, as an attorney, I would advise not to do that because then you run into the issue of you know you may then make yourself a fact witness on appeal from uh HDC decision, and and now you know run into all sorts of issues about whether you can testify on appeal or not.

Um, but the the fact remains and and it happens in in other jurisdictions from time to time.

Um, and I suppose it could happen here.

So I think that what we ought to do is make uh you know um amendments both to the the speaker's guidelines for our hearings.

Um we can make some amendments to the uh the kind of the the preamble the secretary's statement uh at the beginning of our meetings that kind of goes over what you know how our our evidentiary hearings function, and we might also make um some edits to the the commission's rules of procedure.

Um and maybe this Don this would be you know something that kind of gets added to the the chair's duties if if an attorney um is presenting on behalf of an applicant, that you know, when you kind of do your oaths and and all that sort of thing, that would be one of kind of your leadoff questions is you know Mr.

or Mr.

U Mr.

or Mrs.

Lawyer, are you intending to provide fact testimony on behalf of your client?

If so, you know, we need to administer the oath to you as well.

If not, you know, we don't need to administer an oath, but then please understand that's a great way to do it, right?

Because I'm sure all of us noticed in the uh the special meeting that we had that both lawyers were trying to convince us of an architectural argument.

And there was there was an architect there that should have been making that presentation.

So that's a great way to do it is to ask if they're gonna be presenting factual evidence or legal argument.

Right.

And and one of the things you can look out for or listen for is often you will see you you'll hear an attorney say if it's at the beginning of the hearing before they put on witnesses, they'll say something to the effect of you know the evidence will show X, Y, and Z, or and I think this is kind of what happened here at the conclusion when they're making their closing statements.

You'll hear them say, you know, you heard evidence of X, Y, and Z this evening.

You know, they'll try to kind of and you know that's their job is to kind of try to summarize and explain how the the testimony or the documentary evidence that you all received fit kind of within your uh approval criteria or or not.

Um but it is tricky, and it's something that we've have not really talked a whole lot about in the past in our quasi-judicial hearing trainings, just because it's so rare that we have an attorney here on behalf of an applicant, much less two uh attempting making to make competing arguments.

And so that's um in addition to kind of these revisions and kind of procedural changes or updates that I think we ought to make.

That's also something that we'll we'll focus a little bit more on next time we do a board training.

Well, that'd be great because uh I think with uh new uh LUMO overlays, um we're gonna have more lawyers in front of us.

Okay, thank you, Josh.

Appreciate that.

Excellent discussion.

Um next, the running list of changes and HTC standards levels of review.

I reviewed it uh when Shernik has sent it out.

Thank you very much.

And it looked great to me.

Um I don't know if anybody else has any comments on it at this point.

That's that's um a work in progress.

There's no decision or motion to be made this evening.

Uh just everybody look at it.

And I think it's great, uh, Sharnika that uh you and Anna Scott are looking at it because it helps fulfill one of the missions that I'd like this HTC to do, which is making what we do more user-friendly to the public, because you know, in the past, several years ago that was not the case.

Uh HTC was a hurdle to jump over.

We don't want to be a hurdle.

And uh and so levels of review is pretty important.

We appreciate that.

So um Anna Scott and I have been working on um revising the levels of review.

Um it's like a a big table in the design principles and standards.

So we shared a draft of that with Don and Brian and Anna Scott Um handed out some copies of it for um y'all to review there there are two versions.

There's a clean version that doesn't have any of the markups.

Um, and then the markup version has like struck through text and bold and underlined text so you can see where we made changes, um, and there are some uh questions.

Um in some of the comments that staff would like some some clarity um from the commission.

But we can talk about that information at our our next meeting.

Um we'll make sure uh put this these documents um attach them to this agenda and include them in in next month's agenda.

Um we're also working on um revising the design standards so it fits more with the town, the new town brand.

Um so and we've made some changes um to that and some suggestions for changes, and we can also share that with um y'all next month.

Um I think we can talk about it, but we also need to um we'll reach out to our comms team about engagement for the community and and um having a public hearing for you all to get feedback um before you adopt any changes to the design standards.

Okay, and real quick, right?

When I said I have no discussion and I agreed with everything on here, I do have a question for you.

Uh because you have a question for us.

Um you say when it's dealing with installation of new storm windows and doors.

Uh there are standards for storm windows and doors.

Is the commission comfortable with staff approving a COA for this?

I'm just curious, is the commission okay with that?

Storm windows and doors can be pretty tricky.

And pretty horrendous.

Yeah.

Um that would be the only one that next time we can add to that discussion, you guys can think about.

Yeah, and you don't have to accept all of these changes or any of them.

You can pick and choose the ones that feel appropriate with some discussion.

Yeah.

So if the consent is on the commission, is that you think uh new storm doors or windows need to be reviewed by the commission, then we'll make that change in the levels of the case.

Yeah, I want to think about that one.

Because it's a technical thing, but there it can be done poorly, or it can be done almost in an almost invisible fashion.

It depends on the type of the the original window and and how the storm window is being applied to that window.

So we'll we'll just decide next time if we're gonna let that be um HTC or staff.

Yeah.

Um there is one uh uh there are a couple comments where um we ask whether staff can approve um certain things um in the marked up version for under porches entrances and balconies for stairs or steps.

It limits staff review to those of that of no more than three steps.

And so we're wondering if um there's a way to increase that number.

I wouldn't have a problem with that.

Yeah, not at all.

Yeah, the the number seems a little arbitrary.

Yeah, right.

Well, it's twenty it's uh 21 seven inches per riser.

Um so the number of uh risers and treads um hits against the code requirement for the lack of handrails.

Right.

So it's three to once you get to four risers, you're high enough off the ground so that you require a handrail, which would bump this into something that we would review or thing.

But at three, um, you may not require a handrail.

So does the less than seven inches.

Our question would be if there are like steps um like the steps you all reviewed at, I think it was two a week land at last month's meeting.

Um if the commission feels comfortable giving staff the ability to approve steps, including any rails required up to a certain height, provided that they meet whatever the design standard is.

Um if you think the commission needs to review like all railings, then that's fine, and we'll leave it at the the three steps.

But that would be uh a decision that we'd look to you all to make.

And you can also suggest new edits that we haven't thought of.

So if last month's example, if you wanted to change it so that staff could approve four or more steps that aren't attached to a building, um you like you could make that change.

You can get creative if you want um on what changes get made.

Okay.

Thank you.

Can I ask a related question?

So from a budget standpoint, do you all have budget to print new ones of these or make adjustments?

I just I'm wondering, like in the in the budget cycle for the town, do you actually submit a budget on behalf of the HDC?

So you've got some flexibility to print things, change things, and then it's you know, um I'm not sure if the HTC has its own budget.

I mean, we have like a supplies budget, but um our comms team is like handling a lot of like materials, so I don't know if they would um want to weigh in on like the printing and like where or if they prefer like it to be a digital copy.

Um I think certainly we if we revise the standards, we could find it to print some copies for for the commission.

Well, just it's I I mean I bring this with me because I find it really valuable to actually be able to flip it open and ask questions.

Just if I I find it really helpful, and I suspect I like my paper copy.

Yeah, paper copy is helpful.

And I suspect that we're gonna move into a period of time we're gonna make want to make some additional revisions given the environment that we're moving into.

And so just I asked the question of budget of like how much is it reasonable for you all to have at your disposal so that we can use it together, and or how much would have to require us going and looking for grants or especially, you know, just understanding kind of what the budget parameters are.

I think we can keep talking about it and and maybe also have a conversation about the um how it's printed um so that it's easy to replace certain pages that get updated, maybe like a three-ring binder where you can pull out page two through 15 and replace whatever it is that gets amended.

Um so we aren't reprinting.

I know that the nice bound ones are really keeps me from losing anything, but I I could be responsible with a three-ring binder.

Exactly.

So we can look into that, and especially if it's a three-ring binder and it's printing a couple pages here and there when they get updated.

That's certainly something that would fit into our supply budget, I think.

That would be good.

And I have Nancy's and Brian has one, but Laura needs one.

Oh, I have some ones.

I have Polly's.

Oh, you did?

We're dealing with hand me downs, which is good for the good point.

But we're gonna need to when we bring in the new people that we're inevitably gonna bring in, it'd be nice if they were handed one.

Yeah, yes.

Here you go.

This is your your Bible.

Yeah, I think Josh doesn't need one calls.

He's abandoning us.

That's all in his head anyway.

I can donate my yeah.

I think if that happens, we could definitely like print them out because I think we have binders laying around.

So it might not be a bound book, but we could give them a printed copy.

If we could start doing that, that would be awesome.

For also with the levels of review, there's a running list of changes in the design standards.

I think this Anne probably started this maybe sometime in 2021.

Um that was I think the running list is attached in to the agenda.

Um some of the stuff.

I'm not entirely sure I remember what the discussion was about.

Um like one of the items is dormers, but what about dormers?

Um, does the commission want to revisit railing design is one of them?

Um flexibility in backyard designs.

Um there's uh it points to a specific standard.

I don't know what 4.8.2 um is, but it says and side editions.

So we'd look to y'all to look through that um running list, and if there are changes to the standards, um y'all work through those.

Um yeah.

Yeah, backflow preventers are a real problem because they're specified by Owassa.

And there's not a lot of flexibility.

On the other hand, um Bob Epting may still be the attorney for awasa.

Do you know if he is?

I know that at least as of recently as of a couple a couple of years ago he was.

I don't know that he still is, but he's uh he is an HDC stalwart.

I mean, he's a he's definitely on our side of the table.

So I think we should talk to him about getting um backflow preventers out there.

Enclosure, it's not the backflow preventer, it's actually the enclosure that is so horrible.

Well, big plastic.

Yeah, WASA allows the backflow preventers to be in a vault in the ground for residential.

That's what our standards need to say.

If it's in a vault in the ground, then yeah, they can be in a if we find out that a wasp will allow us to do that.

That's what we should sit out for, just an in-ground vault for all backflow preventers in the historic district.

Right.

That would be a simple way to solve that problem as opposed to having fake rocks cover them.

And yeah.

We can plant a bush around it.

Plant bushes around it.

So Ivy.

Yeah, Ivy, something to grow over and around it.

But I know that they allowed um one nineteen battle.

When I did that house, they allowed an in-ground vault.

Right there in battle.

So that was nice.

Yeah.

Well, they allow in ground vaults.

They they don't mind that.

I just know sometimes in commercial they want they haven't allowed us to do in ground.

They have to be above ground.

I just want to make sure a WASA doesn't start.

I think draining the vault is the thing.

And if there's in ground, and if you're in a low situation, there's almost no way of draining it.

Okay.

Sorry, Kevin.

Yeah.

Kevin's.

Can I make one comment based on this?

Please.

I I don't I don't particularly want to add anything to this or even to our running list, but I just want to point out that uh when Jay Fulkerson was making his presentation the other night to us, the second one, I thought he did an excellent job explaining how the new LUMO was sort of knitted together into what we can look at and comment on.

And that's I believe is gonna be coming to us more and more often.

So I'm gonna review his presentation again because he did explain it to me about the sizes and the separations and that kind of thing in a way that is new to me and maybe to all of us.

Um and then one thing that did come up, and Don, you and I mentioned this just a minute, is in order to get those four parking spaces out of the front of the house, like we asked him to, he had to cut down two trees.

I don't know if they were beautiful or not beautiful, but one was, one was.

As we get into this, what is essentially gonna be infill situation, those trees are gonna start to disappear in the historic district.

I don't know that they're protected.

And I just I feel like we need to say something, even though we're not supposed to talk about landscaping.

Part of the character of the historic district is those trees, whether they're right up at the street in the in the right-of-way as part of the streetscape or on the lot.

And maybe y'all can tell me why there's no landscaping in this Kevin.

Can uh historic district commission's rule on trees, specimen trees of a certain size or something like that, or can we put that in the standards?

So landscaping is under the LUMO, not something that we that falls with in our purview, but the town has like a tree protection coordinate as part of what the general tree regulations has tree protection ordinances that are.

Mike, sorry, sorry about that.

The the town's uh the LUMO does have and and I'm not the expert on this, but the LUMO does have a tree protection ordinance uh under kind of the general zoning regulations, and so keep in mind that just because we can't regulate that here doesn't mean that it's not regulated uh elsewhere.

You know, elsewhere in the in the ordinance.

Yeah.

Um so like Kevin mentioned, um, like tree requirements are outside of your purview.

It's in the LUMO.

Um there aren't any tree canopy requirements for single family houses.

Um they do have to provide like a landscape protection plan if they're like removing trees and it has a certain amount of um land disturbance, then we'll review a plan, but um I don't think we'll tell them you can't, like if it's a single family project, you can't remove this tree.

Um there are tree canopy coverage requirements for two unit um buildings uh properties with um two dwelling units on it.

Um otherwise uh it's tie it to like if uh council approves a project, then we could uh implement like a tree canopy coverage and require that the tree canopy coverage requirement is not to require trees remain necessarily, it is that at the end of the project there will be enough tree canopy coverage.

Right.

So it's different.

Right.

I I have a question regarding that, which I would love some direction on.

We cannot um determine landscape issues on a site, and I get it.

Um I don't like it, but I can Yeah.

The spaces between in between the buildings is as important as the buildings themselves in the historic district, and really irritates me that we can't.

Well, I have a but here's my question.

Um in our character descriptions of the historic districts.

And there is um discussion about general character in each area in each of the districts.

So while it's not in the standards, it is in the character essays.

And if taking one, you know, I don't know if taking one tree or taking lots of trees changes the character.

Is that a landscape decision or is it a character of the district decision in terms of um the way we we think about it?

I mean it I agree you know it's not a landscape decision then, it's a character of the district decision.

Well, we can have the discussion when we're in front of the applicant towards that end, but I don't think we could use that as a reason for it to be incongruous.

So what I'll say is under the LUMO, your review criteria.

Kevin, will you speak into the mic?

Boy, I I am I'm on a roll here.

What I'll say is under the LUMO, and this is in it's section 3.6 E.

Uh let's see 3.6 point 2 E.

Now I lost it.

Uh three, the re your your review of COA applications, and the here's the quote, shall not consider plantings and other vegetation.

So as part of your decision making process, planting and plantings and other vegetation should not factor into your consideration at all.

Now, yeah, I think I think Don's point is well taken that you might mention during your deliberation that you know gee, the the existing tree coverage on on this lot is significant insofar as it affects kind of the scale and mass in, you know, and the relationship of stri you know the the structure on this lot to the adjacent uh the adjacent structures.

Um but I I think y'all will need to make clear and and and you will need to make sure that the record reflects that you did not consider you know the existence of those trees when you were making your decision.

Yeah, it's just that at 308 as an example that we just went through.

That's gonna be the saddest part about that.

There are two major specimen trees that when they come down, it's gonna change the whole character of how you turn off Cameron and to Mallette.

I mean, it's gonna completely change it forever.

I mean, those trees are a hundred years old.

Yeah, um, and it just hurts my heart.

Yeah, and and I mean I think your alternative would be to uh see if if if we can persuade the town council and and staff for that matter during you know one of the next LUMO amendment cycles to reconsider that provision of a LUMO.

You know, I think that there's probably a reason that it's included in there, and and I I'm not gonna do it on the record here during our meeting.

I I have some thoughts about what that reasoning might be.

Um but you know, I think that's your alternative is to try to persuade the powers that be to revise the LUMO and to remove that from I think that's the direction.

So I lived in a community in California for 10 years that had a ordinance about not removing mature trees above a certain width.

And I think it was kind of the width of your arm.

Now, some of that was it was a it was a desert climate, and there had been investment in those trees a long time ago.

So I think you know, I wonder whether or not that is actually a issue that's kind of trips outside the HTC, and it's more of an issue for the town more holistically about trying to protect tree canopy, you know.

I I know the town does have ordinances, all kinds of them about trees and protection and permits to cut them down and all that, but it it doesn't talk about the character, it talks about that tree and the root protection zone of that tree.

And I just think what we're gonna see is more and more trees cut down or dying in three years because of we're putting more density into that neighborhood.

And if it comes from LUMO, okay, I get that.

But it it would be good if we could somehow acknowledge that.

I don't think it would change an applicant once they've already got their layout and stuff.

Okay.

That's uh the last education and outreach.

You guys had something to say about that.

So I I think we had this is a continuation from a prior meeting, if I'm not mistaken, and I think it was in the context of a discussion that Nancy was a part of, and sort of what is our charter beyond the business that we did here tonight.

And I think the document that Cherne can Anna Scott attached is a renewed historic preservation plan from the state department of natural and cultural resources that sort of sets out the next decade of what their priorities are essentially.

And I think this is a source document for things that we could consider to be part of our charter.

That's that's what I recall as as the conversation.

I think given that we our numbers are dwindling, and you know, we are expecting there to be new members of this group.

I think once we have new members sat, we probably should revisit this document and determine if there is volunteer capacity to pick up a charter beyond the business we do during a town meeting.

And I and I think you know, in a prior prior time with uh a different composition of more people on the commission, there were efforts to increase outreach to other organizations in town that are dedicated to historic preservation.

Um were more successful than others, but I think it is worthwhile for us to consider that at a time when we're back closer to full capacity.

And how many people do we want?

What's full capacity?

I think it's seven.

It was nine, but it was to seven.

So it's seven minutes.

So we would need three people after Josh's term ends.

Um we also talked about like uh uh I think for education, and we talked about you all talked about like a look book.

Um, and so we were Anna Scott and I were thinking of a project that the commission could do um to create like an applicant resource.

Um which could be like taking trips around the historic districts and taking photos of what you think um sort of shows the character of the district, and we could like uh package that up as a resource for for applicants.

Um I I think that's a great idea.

I think when we talked about that sometime early last year, it went down the path of um look books that referenced um uh there's a historical context for that language, which I think may have been a time when there were more templatized.

I I don't exactly recall, Josh, you and um Don may have more context for that, but I think we just kind of using that as a handle for the idea that as um new development is encouraged in the historic districts, trying to provide a little bit more precise guidance around what would be complementary to character so that it's not so vague for folks or for outside developers that are not necessarily invested in the town's character, that they've got a starting place that's going to encourage them to bring forward applications that are gonna more easily get approved.

Well versus it being Wild Wild West.

Yeah, more um more specific than a lookbook would be historic precedent or historical precedent.

I don't know what the grammar should be in the but you just came sorry.

Kevin's disease.

Um, I think it's it's historical precedent.

That's what it is.

That's uh a technical term.

But you just came up with a great name.

You said uh now forgotten within what you just said, complimentary to the characters what you if that was one of the words.

That would be a great name for it.

Complimentary to the character.

Um just leave it at that.

Sounds like a country song.

Um but yeah, we can come up with a a good name.

But when you said that, I was like, that's what it's about.

It's about not telling people what they can and can't do.

It's what's complimentary to the character of our historic districts.

Well, and and Sharnika, I I really love the idea that you just mentioned about um using what's already what already exists and saying like we think this is a great example of what the council is trying to encourage as far as NPIL development, and I think there are some nooks and crannies in the historic districts that sometimes get overlooked.

But if you went and took a hard look, you probably could find some examples of things that we think are more successful than others.

Maybe some of the folks on this council commission built some of those things somewhere along the line, so that might maybe you have some ideas.

I know uh I know Catherine Cop, um she's over on North Street.

She moved the old historic pony barn into their backyard and renovated it, and that's really well done.

And that was a tricky situation.

She we had uh the preservation chapel had to move the pony barn because the house was gonna knock it down.

So we should get that barn.

Mm-hmm.

Wow.

And turned it into a fantastic little apartment.

Very neat is really cool.

I love the idea.

Finding those examples and selling elevating them and celebrating them and encouraging others to find that example.

Rosemary.

Okay.

Sorry.

Because I think she ain't been so there's gonna be more examples of that.

So that's that's good.

But you need to go check that out, Josh.

It's cool.

They did a good job.

I will.

But that's a good example.

We can take photos up.

So sure, and you could sorry, just on on that, because it sounds like you and Anna Scott have got a great idea.

Um, how can we help with that?

Or is it time for us to help, or do you need more time to kind of develop your idea into something we can help with?

Um well, I think we'll lean on y'all to like um help with the content and we can put it together so we could find some times to do walks around the historic districts and um we can bring equipment to take photos.

Um y'all just point us to what you want a picture of, and we could give you some um notebooks and y'all can write thoughts down and we can package all of that information.

Like a field trip, which is different than a site visit.

Yes.

But to not trigger the public meeting.

Yeah, not in the context of a specific application.

Right, right.

We could go in groups of three.

Yeah, yeah.

I think that's a great idea.

I think that's a great idea.

Okay.

I mean, I I think we could go as a whole commission on a field trip, it just has to be noticed properly and not about a specific project that's a COA.

Yeah.

So if we can have more than three people come, we just need to then have 48 hours notice so we can put it on the website so that any member of the public could come too.

That's right.

So maybe we we put that on the next agenda also just to make sure that we're being helpful.

So again, I think it's a great idea.

Okay.

I was already forgetting.

Okay, who did I say I was gonna call?

Um, so I think that uh that's all the discussion for this evening.

So are you guys summer break?

Ah, summer break.

We were talking about July because you guys are gonna be on vacations, correct?

Yeah.

Um Laura, the commission usually takes a month off in the summer.

Um Anascott and I have uh time off in July.

So we're thinking July might be a good month.

We also have um three or four applications um on the June agenda.

So we might want to consider if we can um find a time to do like a virtual meeting just to vote on those written decisions, um, or just uh push them to the August meeting.

Yeah.

How quickly after the June meeting could we do the virtual just to make sure that you've got the you can kind of keep things moving so it doesn't delay applicants?

Uh Kevin would need time to do all of the written decisions.

Yeah, I mean I I think I think we could probably get the written decisions done within a week after the evidentiary hearings after your decisions are made.

Um and then I suppose there's no reason why we couldn't do like a special call virtual meeting just for the purpose of uh you know administratively approving the written decisions.

Um that should be any any time of day as long as we can get quorum and you can sort of administratively move through.

Yep.

And would that be before if we did it in June, would that be before Josh time's out?

It could be.

Okay.

So just I that's what we need to do.

Yeah.

Done.

Okay.

So we can um look at our calendars and we'll post some times for a special virtual meeting.

Great in June.

Super.

Do you need a motion for the July recess?

Uh I don't think that we technically need a motion for that, that we we just would not hold a meeting in July.

Just don't show up.

Um, by not make taking a mo making a motion and taking a vote, we don't lock ourselves into you know if circumstances change and we need to hold a July meeting and maybe take a break in August or something to that effect.

Gotcha.

Leaves us a little bit of flexibility to do that.

Hopefully that doesn't happen.

I'd love for you all to be able to take your uh your your planned vacations, but you never know.

All right.

Well, if that's it, we will adjourn the meeting.

Thank you.