Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.

I would love to welcome you and call the order to order our January 12th meeting of the governing body.

Madam Clerk, would you take the roll, please?

Mayor Collins.

Present.

Dr.

Emmons, present.

Mr.

Escobel.

Here.

Mr.

Laborne.

Here.

Mr.

Moody.

Here.

Dr.

Rennie.

Present.

Mr.

Seagrave.

Present.

Mr.

White.

Present.

Mr.

Wolf.

Here.

Dr.

Aldrich.

Present.

All members are present.

We do have a quorum.

Would you all join me, please, in the Pledge of Allegiance?

Pledge allegiance to the advanced states.

Consent agenda.

All agenda items listed with the designation of CA are considered to be routine items by the governing body and will be enacted by one motion.

There will be no separate discussion on these items unless a member of the governing body so requests and support by two other members is received.

Any item removed from the consent agenda will be considered in its normal sequence on the agenda.

All right.

Are there any items a member of this governing body would like to remove from the consent agenda?

Mr.

Labourne.

Mr.

Mayor number 22A.

Concur.

Concur.

Okay, we'll remove 22A from the consent agenda.

Anyone else?

Hearing nut, I would entertain a motion.

So moved.

Second.

That was Mr.

Escobel.

Second by Dr.

Aldridge.

All those in favor of the consent agenda, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Those opposed.

The consent agenda is approved with item 22A removed.

Number six, election of City Council President for 2026.

All right.

Annually, the city council elects their leaders for the uh the next year.

Um while I don't get to vote because I'm not a member of the city council.

I do uh run the meeting.

And so at this time I would open it up for nominations for the office of city council president for the year 2026.

Mr.

Mayor.

Yes, sir, Mr.

Escobel.

I nominate Councilman Tom Seagrave for President.

Second.

Seconded by Mr.

White.

Are there any other nominations?

If not, I would entertain a motion to cease nominations.

Second move by Dr.

Aldridge and seconded by Mr.

Wolf to cease nominations.

All those in favor of ceasing nominations, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Those opposed.

All right.

We have uh a vote for the president of our city council, Mr.

Tom Seagrove has been nominated.

All those in favor, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Those opposed.

Mr.

Seagrave is unanimously elected.

President.

Congratulations, sir.

Number seven, election of city council vice president.

Next election then is for vice president.

Same rules.

I would entertain a motion for the vice president of the city council.

Mr.

Mayor.

Yes, ma'am.

I've moved to uh nominate Pete Lebourne for Vice President of the Council.

Seconded by Mr.

Moody.

So it's been moved by Dr.

Emmons, seconded by Mr.

Moody.

Are there any other nominations?

I'd entertain mo a motion to cease nominations.

So move.

Second.

Aye.

Those opposed.

All right.

We're on the motion to elect Mr.

Labourne, Vice President of the City Council.

All those in favor, please signify by saying aye.

Those opposed.

Mr.

Labourne is unanimously elected vice president.

Congratulations, sir.

Number eight, a public hearing to determine whether compliance of annexation conditions required by Wyoming Statute 15 1-402 exists for the city.

Initiated annexation of 26 parcels of land totaling roughly 279.98 acres, comprise of various tracts of land situate in North Cheyenne, generally located south of Story Boulevard, east of Powder House Road, north of Del Range Boulevard, and west of Ridge Road.

All right.

Well, before we go out to the public to uh get comments, we'll do a quick staff report with Mr.

White.

Thank you, sir.

Mayor, members of council, Connor White Planning and Development Department.

The sanction is for 26 parcels of land totaling roughly 279.98 acres, generally located south of Story Boulevard, east of Powderhouse Road, north of Dell Range, and west of Ridge Road.

The city, uh this is a city initiated annexation.

Uh present to Wyoming State Statute 15 1-404.

Resolution initiating this annexation was adopted by the governing body on December 22nd, uh, 2025.

This public hearing is being held in accordance with Wyoming State Statute 15 1-402A.

And then pursuant to fulfilling the requirements of state statute, staff asks the governing body to consider the following.

The land proposed to be annexed is contiguous to city limits, specifically.

Uh the parcels are 100% contiguous.

All city services and utilities currently available to residents of the city will be provided to the residents of the annexed land.

Extending water and sewer will increase the health safety and or health and safety of the residents living in the area of the community.

The area to be annexed is considered or is inside the urban service boundary and designated with mixed use commercial and urban residential by the future land use map.

This type of development is best supported by being within city limits and connecting to city services.

Certified uh mailing was sent to all landowners and utilities within the area, uh, the annexed area, not less than 20 business days prior to the public hearing tonight.

According to the calendar, 20 business days prior to today's public hearing was December 9th, uh, 2025, and certified mailing was sent out on December 5th, and the earliest confirmed receipt was on December 8th.

And property owners within 300 feet of these areas uh were also mailed notice at that same time.

Um, this is accompanied by an assigned zoning ordinance as well.

And I know I always get the question.

Um with this pocket, there are only four property owners.

Um for this basically the land to be annexed, one being the coal family of Edwards Development, the city, and uh the school district.

Cole family is on board with the annexation, which are they're predominantly ones with section 20, and then the Edwards properties on the east or yeah, east side of Converse.

Um, they're also in favor of the annexation.

So just haven't heard from the school district or the city uh for comments, but I'm assuming the city's probably fine.

I think we're okay with it, sir.

All right, let's go out to the governing body.

Anybody having questions for staff?

Connor, thank you.

Stand by anybody in the audience here today to speak to this annexation.

Uh, this is a city council goal that we we started in 2021 to annex properties 100% surrounded by the city to clean up some regulatory issues that come with that.

And this is the ninth iteration that we're almost complete now after five years of working on this project.

Anybody in the audience?

All right.

Hearing none, the purpose of the public hearing has been met.

Next item, please.

Number 8B, public hearing for a transfer of ownership of retail liquor license application filed with the city clerk's office for ACE's range LLC, doing business as ACEs range, 1505 Pioneer Avenue, Cheyenne, Wyoming.

License currently held by F and G Corporation doing business as the green door.

All right, before us we have a public hearing.

The uh green door is no more, and uh their liquor license is available and ACEs range is asked to uh have that transferred to them.

Is there anybody here today that would like to speak to that transfer of the retail liquor license?

Do me a favor and push that button and turn on that microphone.

There you go.

Thank you.

Got it.

Mr.

Mayor, I'm Ben Troutline F and G Corporation.

And um, I'm here to uh answer any questions there might be, but I most of all I just wanted to say I fully support the sale.

I think it's gonna be a great use for the liquor license, and I think the new ownership will do a great job.

And I think the new ownership will do a great job.

Thank you, Ben.

Appreciate you being here tonight.

Good evening, Mr.

Mayor and City Council.

My name is JB Koons, and I am the operating owner manager of ACES Range.

I am here before you'd answer any questions you may have for me in our acquisition of this liquor license.

Very good.

Does anyone in the governing body have a question for the applicant?

Dr.

Aldridge.

Thank you, Mayor.

Through you.

I'm just um wondering if uh can you tell us a little bit about how you'll fully fully utilize this license that is for retail liquor license?

Yes, ma'am, Mr.

Mayor, through you to uh Dr.

Aldridge.

Uh we have the ability to take the trackmans anywhere.

Uh we can set up a uh an experience where we bring uh the trackmans to a location.

Uh so I believe that would satisfy that requirement.

Uh insofar as a liquor retail store, uh, we do have an area that we can designate in the uh on our premise that can serve as a store.

But furthermore, the idea is to uh be more of an order service for people.

Uh if they would like a fine bottle of wine or scotch, whiskey, whatever they would like, uh we can get that ordered for them uh and be uh liquor store in that sense of a word.

Uh do you have any other questions for me or does that answer?

Dr.

Albert's any follow-up?

I had one follow-up question, which is uh for our um city clerk, and that's that um my understanding of state statute is that uh those who hold a liquor license can only hold one.

So will that result in a tavern license coming back to uh the city to be relit?

I think it's a bar and grill.

Bar and grill.

Yes, Mr.

Mayor, through you to Dr.

Aldrich, I believe.

The um idea is for the um business ACES range to relinquish their bar and grill at the time of the approval of the retailer license.

Thank you.

Uh that's your understanding, also, James.

Yes, that is my intention and understanding that we will relinquish our bar and grill license in lieu of uh procuring this liquor license, full retail license.

If you wanted to double pay for licensor, we're never going to argue with that, but I think that's good business.

I think it would help the city to have another bar and grill available to entrepreneurs.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Mr.

Mayor.

Yes, sir.

Uh Mr.

Mayor, thank you.

Uh through you.

Um Mr.

Koontz, um, pardon my ignorance, but what is it that you do?

What did you bar?

And before you answer that, let me just make one very personal comment is that um I knew your father very, very well and had a tremendous regard for him.

Uh he's a very fine man.

So uh Mr.

Mayor, to you, uh Councilman Wolf, uh, appreciate that very much.

He was a devout Wyoming night uh and was very uh interested in the policy that uh shapes the state.

Uh we at Ace's Range are a golf simulator business.

We also just acquired a recent uh acquisition that is another SIM.

It's a uh full-on racing SIM that uh provides four degrees of freedom as they call it, but in the layman terms, you can um do a full donut in it and actually spin around in this contraption that we have put in Aces Range.

Uh we are a new concept of an entertainment venue that isn't necessarily a restaurant, it isn't necessarily bar and grill.

Uh we provide uh a great uh location for private parties, things like that, as well as hosting golf leagues.

We have six trackmen golf bays, uh racing bay, and then a shooting bay and uh uh open area where we host uh quite a few team building parties and holiday parties for companies in Cheyenne.

Follow up, Mr.

Wolf.

Okay.

Mr.

Mayor, Mr.

Escobel.

Um for my colleagues' edification, so uh simulating golf.

Can you let us know how many different golf courses you can actually play on those simulators?

Uh I believe the last count was 350 something.

Uh or excuse me, sorry, Mr.

Mayor, through you to Councilman Escobel.

Uh, I believe it's 300 and something.

It's always uh uh continuing uh aspect of track man's business where they send these drones to uh golf courses and then render them into uh software uh that we then utilize.

We're constantly uploading and downloading courses.

Our computers' memories are completely full of uh courses and activities that are uh related to and used by the trackman app.

Thank you.

So, Mr.

Mayor, I think we got about 299 more courses to go.

I think we do.

Mr.

Koontz, thank you.

Thank you, good luck to you, sir.

Appreciate it.

Thank you, sir.

Ms.

Koontz, welcome.

It's been a while since we've had you here.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor and City Council members.

I'm April Brimer Coons, 6210 Bremer Road, Cheyenne, Wyoming.

I am the financial part of ACES Range.

And what my son didn't tell you, Mr.

Mayor and Council is that this racing simplicates NASCAR and Formula One.

And when he very politely said, Mom, do you want to try it?

I politely said, no, thank you.

So I stand for questions.

This would help us immensely, Mr.

Mayor and Council members to have a full liquor license.

We are restricted with uh legislation that we worked so hard to pass, Mr.

Mayor.

Uh, to 40% alcohol.

And it becomes a real issue for ACES range financially because we sometimes can't have the parties we'd like to have because we don't want to violate the 40%.

Our record is clean.

I think we have shown that we know how to manage a liquor license.

And would hope sincerely that you would consider this transfer.

It is a private transfer.

Um very honored.

And I'm grateful that my parents haven't sent a bolt of lightning that it's from the green door.

I stand for questions, Mr.

Mayor.

Um we're happy to have you here tonight.

Thank you.

Anybody have any questions for the applicant?

I just have a comment, Mayor.

Thank you, Mayor.

Mayor Collins through you.

Um, I've had the opportunity to attend four or five events, um, team building and party, Christmas party, those types of things at your venue.

And um, really, I think for people in our audience tonight, really what JB really downplayed was that there is a shooting range simulation that actually is uh really uh there is a huge variety of shooting as well as golf.

So um for those that might be of that persuasion, um, there's something there for everybody.

So we wish you the best of luck.

Thank you.

Thank you, ma'am.

Appreciate your being here tonight.

Let's open it up to the public.

Is anybody here to speak to the uh transfer of this liquor license?

Anyone in the public?

All right.

Anybody on the governing body?

All right.

The purpose of the public hearing has been met, and we'll assign this item also to the public service or the finance committee.

Number 8C, public hearing for a transfer of ownership of retail liquor license application filed with the city clerk's office for Westby Edge LLC, doing business as Westby Edge Brewing, 714 West 20th Street, Cheyenne, Wyoming, license currently held by Scooters Scoreboard Bar Inc.

All right.

We'll open it up to the public again.

And one thing I maybe I could just do we have a lot of new people in the audience today, and we're excited that you're all here.

Um, when uh a liquor license is uh not being used, we call that going into a park status.

And state law allows you to park it for one year, and then if they come back to the governing body, they can park it for a second year.

If they don't reuse that license, then they relinquish it.

It comes back to the city council.

And so um we're we've had a couple liquor licenses that have been parked for a while, and uh they're now coming uh to the end of that time frame.

And so that's why we're seeing these uh this activity going on this evening for these liquor licenses.

I think the one that we're gonna talk about now, I think it's the 23rd of January.

If it's not transferred by then, uh, then the owner of that liquor license loses it and the value that goes with it.

So go ahead, Mr.

Westby.

Good evening.

Good evening, Terry Cassidy, 2814 Carrie Avenue.

Um, I'm here on behalf of the scooters folks who will be transferring this license, hopefully, um, over to Westby's Edge.

Um, the owners of West B are also here tonight to speak to the license, but I am obviously in in support of it.

Fantastic ownership.

Um, a really good track record, and I think that they'll do some really nice things with it.

Any questions for me?

Thank you very much.

Anybody?

Thanks, Ms.

Cassidy.

Mr.

Westby, welcome.

Bring that microphone up, would you, sir?

Good evening.

Good evening.

Uh, Mr.

Mayor, Council, uh, Darren Westby 714, West 20th, uh, Westby Edge Brewing.

Uh, we're just really proud to be a part of uh something very significant that's been happening downtown with the revitalization, especially on the West Edge that we're a part of.

Uh, really proud of everything that's going on.

We're bringing thousands of people um to downtown that we hadn't seen in quite a while.

Uh, it was kind of interesting the night before Thanksgiving.

Uh we had a big crowd at our place, but my wife and I decided we'd take a little walk just to see how the rest of downtown's doing.

Uh went over to uh our our friends about a block and a half to the to the east of us, and they were packed.

And we just had a moment to reflect a little bit about five years ago, the night before Thanksgiving or any night in downtown, uh at least on that edge of downtown, would have been vacant.

And now we have thousands of people down there.

And so really proud to be a part of that.

Um, really proud to have the opportunity to um hopefully get the transfer of the liquor license to help expand upon about what we have to offer uh to the downtown with that regard.

And so uh gratefully worked with uh the winklers on the on the sale and hopefully the transfer.

And I would stand for any questions.

Ms.

Westby, can you uh I know the question is going to come share how you're gonna use the license, please.

Sure.

Uh very similar to um what ACE's range is doing.

It gives us a little bit more flexibility with the 6040 split.

Umperationally, if I would just tell you right now, from nine o'clock till 11 o'clock on a Friday or Saturday, we sell maybe one pizza.

Uh having that flexibility to not have to be open every hour that we're open with the with the other business there, would give us that flexibility.

Um, we're killing our cook, and I don't want to do that.

She's awesome and amazing.

Um so the liquor store, uh, you know, something that we wanted from the beginning when we started developing uh Westby Edge was to carve out a piece of that to give an opportunity for package uh retail as well.

And so we're kind of coming full circle uh with this potential uh to be able to offer on this west edge uh another opportunity with that uh as you notice the a big structure being built just to the west of here, um yeah, west of here, uh south of here.

Um, the big apartment complex going up.

It's gonna be transformational uh for the downtown, not just the west edge, the entire downtown.

And we're proud to be a part of that in a way that we also come in full circle with the business plan that started six years ago of you know, what if you know there's a desert here of grocery as well.

So we're looking to possibly carve that out.

That has nothing to do with the liquor license, but that same space we're looking to provide another amenity for the people in the west edge of downtown and downtown in general.

So uh our daughter also to try to carve off the all three points of of this license.

Our daughter owns a uh event planning business.

Uh she does weddings, she does she does parties.

This would also allow us to be able to take this liquor license and uh help the community have events outside of our location and other locations.

And so yes, that's the kind of the trifecta that we like to see happen, kind of come in full circle with the original business plan.

Any questions from the council on the uh applicant?

Dr.

Aldridge.

America Collins for you.

I'm wondering if you have any plans for are you thinking um of a drive-thru um package liquor, or are you thinking it's going to be simply uh uh set up where they would have to come in and go into retail?

Mr.

Westby.

Mr.

Mayor, Councilman.

Um we really don't have the ability with our property lines and with our existing facilities around us to have a drive up.

Uh so we were looking at possibly a curbside uh with all the legal amenities that have to happen with that, uh, just to add some convenience, but that's something that we're talking about.

But drive drive up is not a uh option right now.

Anyone else?

Thank you, Ms.

Westby, and good luck.

Thank you.

Anybody else in the audience here today that would like to speak to this transfer of a retail liquor license?

No one.

All right.

The purpose of this public hearing hasn't met, and we'll also assign this item to the finance committee.

Number nine ordinance, third reading, defining the terms and conditions of employment for sworn officers of the Cheyenne Police Department for January 2026 until the end of fiscal year 2026.

All right.

This is our annual review of the terms and conditions for our police department.

And I think there's two major changes.

Um, a three percent cost of living allowance that was given to our employees, and then a change in a little bit in the longevity pay.

Police officers might be able to earn as they uh go through their career.

We'll open up to the public.

Is there anybody in the public that would like to speak to this ordinance on third and final reading?

All right, I hear none.

Mr.

Leborn, are you ready?

Mr.

Mayor, the recommendation of the finance committee is to approve on third and final reading.

And I so move second.

And seconded by Mr.

Moody.

Comments from members of the governing body.

Hearing none, Madam Clerk, would you take the vote?

Dr.

Aldrich.

Yes.

Mayor Collins.

Yes.

Dr.

Emmons.

Yes.

Mr.

Escobel.

Hi.

Mr.

Labourne.

Hi.

Mr.

Moody.

I.

Dr.

Rennie.

Yes.

Mr.

Seagrave.

Yes.

Mr.

White.

Yes.

Mr.

Wolf.

Aye.

This ordinance is approved on third and final reading.

Number 10 ordinance, second reading, creating chapter 1.28, administrative inspection warrants, establishing authority for their issuance and amending the municipal code of the city of Cheyenne, Wyoming to authorize certain city officials as specified to apply for administrative inspection warrants.

All right.

This ordinance would create a process for our fire chief and chief building official to receive an administrative warrant.

Um, I see a lot of new faces here today, so I thought maybe if you don't mind, I just go through how we do this.

All right.

So we have two microphones, one on each side.

You're welcome to uh come up to either one of those microphones.

We ask that you identify yourself clearly for the record, um, and then bring that microphone so it's right up in front of you.

Because if you're over like this, people can't hear you very well.

So just make sure that microphone's just a couple inches away from your face, and then we give each person three minutes.

So we'd love to have you come up and share with you your thoughts on this ordinance on second reading.

And uh, someone needs to start us off.

Mr.

Brown, before you get started, I owe you an apology, sir.

Last time you were here, we were talking about uh affordable housing and uh um well, you know, we invite people to come and speak to us, and maybe we could have been a little, I could have been a little bit more polite to you.

So I've been waiting for you to chance to come back so I could make that apology in person, but uh appreciate your coming back this evening and looking forward to your comments, sir.

Appreciate it, Ms.

Mayor.

Thank you.

And uh thank you, Mr.

Mayor, City Council, Xie Brown Ward 2.

I'm here to respectfully ask that you reject this ordinance.

This does violate the Fourth Amendment of the U.S.

Constitution and Article 1, Section 4 of the Wyoming State Constitution.

And we can twist words, we can use words like inspection versus search, we can twist the law, we can twist these things up, but at the end of the day, the overarching of this ordinance does violate the Fourth Amendment and Article 1, Section Four, and is textbook government overreach giving more power to our unelected bureaucrats.

Now I know there's going to be case law thrown out there about Camara versus San Francisco and Cs versus Seattle and how the Supreme Court ruled in those.

However, just last week, Pennsylvania Commonwealth Court ruled in Riviera versus the borough of Potstown in a unanimous NBAC opinion to decline to follow the U.S.

Supreme Court ruling in these, and I quote, so-called administrative warrants without suspicion of wrongdoing.

Now, while this ordinance may have some good intentions, good intentions do not make good policy.

The media reported uh that councilman Siegrave made the comment that there was only going to be probably about 10 of these used a year.

Well, those need to be utilized individually and separate.

We don't have to do a blanket coverage for an entire ordinance for an entire city that puts 61,000 people at risk of having their fourth amendment violated.

Fire chief even made comments during the committee meeting that most people consent.

They typically don't have a problem with people consenting to them coming in.

And that's how it's supposed to be to have consent.

The fourth amendment was set up.

To where it's supposed to be hard for government and unelected bureaucrats to come on to your private property.

Because really, how where does it stop?

Do we just start off with a ban in buildings?

Next thing you know, we have what rent control to where property owners cannot make enough money to maintain maintenance on these facilities.

We come in and do an inspection, and now we're condemning properties, city buys the properties from the property owners, and we start building more of the affordable housing scams.

I mean, where does it begin?

Do we have selective enforcement under the guise of safety?

What happens to council members or on councils five, 10, 15, 20 years down the road and the unelected bureaucrats that far down the road?

How are they going to utilize this ordinance and in what way?

This policy is stuff you see in San Francisco, Seattle, Boulder, Fort Collins, and with that new communist socialist mayor out in New York.

We are not that.

We need to stop chipping away at the constitutional rights as these ordinances kind of do, and we need to stop trying to Colorado or California or Wyoming.

And we need to stop trying to Colorado or California or Wyoming.

Again, thank you all for your time, and I appreciate it.

Thank you.

Sir.

Let's not do that, okay?

Let's not do that.

We're not gonna we're gonna listen politely.

Thank you.

Good evening, Mayor Collins, members of the council.

My name is Gary Pugh.

Again, my wife and I have lived in Cheyenne for five years.

Welcome.

I spent over 20 years in the United States Air Force, retiring as a master sergeant in charge of avionics of a fighter group.

My first day in uniform, I raised my right hand and swore an oath to support, excuse me, to support and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Then and I take that oath seriously now.

That's why I'm here tonight.

Because chapter 1.28 asked you to create a warrant that isn't a really a warrant at all.

Our Wyoming Constitution, Article 1, Section 4 requires that warrants issue only upon, and I quote probable cause supported by affidavit.

End quote.

Requires that warrants issue only upon probable cause supported by affidavit.

That language isn't an accident.

Our founders, state and federal understood that when government can enter your home simply because it wants to check on you, you don't really own that home.

You are just borrowing it.

This ordinance allows warrants to be issued merely to determine, discover, or verify compliance.

I want you to think about what that standard actually means.

Every inspection exists to determine, discover, and verify compliance.

That's the purpose of inspections.

When the standard for getting a warrant is simply wanting to conduct an inspection, the purpose of the inspection, when the standard for getting a warrant is simply wanting to conduct an inspection, what grounds would a judge ever have to say no?

The answer is none.

When the judge can't say no, you do not have judicial oversight.

You have a rubber stamp.

I've heard it said that this is settled law, that the courts have blessed administrative warrants.

That may be true under federal law, but Wyoming's constitution uses different language and stronger language than the Fourth Amendment.

Article 1, Section 4 has repeatedly held that our state constitution provides greater protection than its federal counterpart.

And the case cited by council members on social media, Hill versus City of Laramie is about building permits and civil procedure.

It says nothing about administrative warrants, nothing about the Fourth Amendment, and nothing that authorizes what you're being asked to approve tonight.

I would encourage everyone citing legal authority to make sure they've actually read it.

But I've read the ordinance, and that limitation appears nowhere in the text.

Verbal assurances don't bind future councils or future code enforcement officers.

This once this tool exists, it will expand.

Okay.

Thank you very much.

Appreciate you being here, sir.

Thank you.

Welcome again to Cheyenne.

Yes, ma'am.

Hello, mayor and members of the city council.

My name is Kathy Sigliano, and I am a resident here in Cheyenne.

I strongly oppose this ordinance authorizing administrative inspection warrants.

You each took an oath, an oath to uphold the United States and the Wyoming constitutions.

That oath matters.

This ordinance violates it.

Calling these warrants non-criminal does not change what they are.

Government permission to enter private property without consent, and in some cases without notice.

This is exactly what our Fourth Amendment was written to prevent.

If there is no active emergency, the government has no business forcing its way onto private property.

Language in this ordinance is vague and dangerously broad.

Phrases like permission unobtainable or allowing notice to be skipped if it might interfere with an inspection, give unelected officials far too much discretion.

That is not a safeguard.

It's a violation to abuse.

Private property rights do not disappear because access is inconvenient, or an owner says no.

Emergencies are already covered under existing law.

This ordinance is unnecessary, excessive, and sets dangerous precedent.

Once government power is expanded, it is rarely rolled back.

Every resident should be concerned about where this leads.

I urge you to reject this ordinance and uphold the constitutional rights you swore to protect.

Thank you.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm gonna just take just a second here.

Um my handy pocket United States Constitution.

Article four is one sentence.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects shall against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrant shall be issued, but upon probable cause, supported by an oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.

That's United States Constitution.

The Wyoming Constitution is exactly the same word for word.

Section four, I don't have to read it again.

It is the exact same word.

So it's not stronger.

It is literally the exact same words.

Yes, ma'am.

Tell the green button.

There you go.

Thank you.

I'm Katie Bradfield.

Welcome.

I'm super nervous.

So don't be nervous.

Just tell us what you're thinking.

Um, I just am here tonight again.

And I originally emailed all of you guys last week about this, and I appreciate the responses.

Um, and I didn't want to be just a keyboard warrior, so I actually wanted to show up in person.

Um, I just wanted to ask that you vote against this.

Um, and if you do see that you want to go through with this, I just ask that you look further into it and possibly look at rewording it, really expanding on if it's gonna be just for the abandoned and vacant properties, like so many people online are saying that it is for.

Um, and really put limits to it.

Um, in one of the articles that I read online, someone was stating that you know they might go into a house and people don't want them to look in certain areas of their house.

And to me, I can agree with that.

If I have uh renovation and I'm having my home um like a bathroom remodel, and I'm having an inspector come check to see if it's proper.

I don't feel like they need to go to the basement.

And I mean, it's a mess all the time.

So to me, you should only go in the area that needs to be looked at.

Um, so but overall, I guess I just ask that you vote no on it unless you really work on the wording and restrictions in it.

Thank you.

See, there was no reason to be nervous, was there?

My leg is shaking.

Thanks for being here tonight.

Sir, welcome.

Uh to speak you regarding ordinance 1.28.

My name is John Frank.

I reside at uh 6916 Snowy River Road here in Cheyenne.

Wyoming is my adopted home state after uh living through the damage done to Colorado.

And uh it's and Colorado is the state in which I was born.

I email the message to all members of the city council this morning, and we'll not reread that message.

You should all have a copy of that.

The situation is cited as the need for this ordinance from my read of the city code and the Wyoming statutes are already addressed in law.

Since these violations are already addressed, makes me wonder as to the real motivation behind this uh this proposed ordinance.

Respect for private property undergoed so much of what makes America the great country that America is and sets the US apart from almost every other country, especially every socialist country.

I am uh restating formally and unequivocally my opposition to this proposed ordinance to authorize administrative inspection warrant and urge you to vote against proposed ordinance 1.28.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you, sir.

Appreciate you being here this evening.

Sir.

Hello, Mr.

Mayor.

Looks like we have something else.

Yeah, we're good.

Brothers.

Yeah.

Um welcome.

Thank you.

And thank you for the time.

I'm gonna be short and sweet.

I've read the ordinance as proposed.

Introduce yourself, please.

Oh, I'm sorry, I'm Dreard and uh I've been in China about five years as well.

Welcome, sir.

Um, I've read the ordinance or proposed ordinance, and I've watched the public service committee uh meeting from January 5th.

And I don't know, I don't disagree that the city needs to do something with the abandoned buildings.

They're all over the place.

It doesn't matter which part of town you go to, you can find an abandoned building, um, house, whatever it is, and they look horrible.

And some of them are um public safety concerns, and I think there needs to be something done about that.

I think there needs to be an ordinance or whatever it is that can be written to take care of that.

However, as the ordinance is written right now, it doesn't um doesn't even mention abandoned buildings in it, much less the things that it could cover, and that's what concerns me.

Uh I've heard it from several people today about it could cover anybody living in anything uh at any point in time.

And I don't think that's the intent of the ordinance.

I think the intent of the ordinance is to address and it should be to address abandoned buildings.

So I oppose the ordinance as written, but I don't oppose taking another look at it and going back and rewriting it and being more specific to what the city council is trying to accomplish here.

Um thank you for your time.

Appreciate it.

Thanks for coming this evening.

Welcome.

Mr.

Mayor, point of order.

If you would, uh I'd ask you to uh please tell the audience that we're on second reading, which means this will in fact go back to a committee for further discussion of it.

So tonight is not the last decision.

Thank you.

I don't know if you guys are not unfamiliar with our our processes.

This is an ordinance, and so we read it into the record, then it goes to a committee, and it comes here tonight on second reading, goes back to the committee, and then comes back two weeks from tonight for the final decision.

So there's lots of opportunities between now and then for amendments or uh or further work to be done on an ordinance.

Ma'am.

Councilman Moody had his hand raised.

Just a point of information.

Uh Mr.

Mayor and everybody just remember it does fail on second reading, it does fail.

Is that correct?

I believe that's correct.

Yes, ma'am.

Welcome.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor, members of the council.

My name is Patricia McCoy.

I've been a resident of Cheyenne for the last 18 years, and I'm here to avoid my strong opposition.

While I appreciate Mr.

Wolf pointing out that this is indeed the second reading, and it will go back to the committee should it pass.

Our hopes is that it would not pass.

And if it does pass, that you would send it back to the committee with appropriate recommendations for limitations.

Um, as we debate the merits of this ordinance, we should reflect on the warning from Benjamin Franklin.

Those who would give up a central liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

While this ordinance is presented under the guise of safety, we must ask at what cost by creating a path for administrative inspection warrants.

This council is asking us to surrender the essential liberty of the home for the temporary safety of an administrative checklist.

I want to remind this council that Wyoming has a proud and independent legal tradition of protecting that liberty.

In cases like state and Vasquez versus state as recently as 1999, the Wyoming Supreme Court has ruled that our state constitution, Article 1, Section 4, which thank you again, uh Patrick Collins for pulling that up and reading it for us.

Um is actually greater protection and individual privacy per Wyoming Supreme Court than the Fourth Amendment.

Our c our courts have rejected the idea that the government can engage in searches without specific individual individualized justification.

This ordinance bypasses that tradition.

It treats our private homes of Cheyenne residents as government regulated spaces.

If the council is determined to move forward, which it seems that it is, this ordinance must be specifically amended to prevent overreach.

We have seen quotes in the paper by councilman Layborn saying that this is not government overreach.

This is for safety and neighborhood cleanup.

That sounds fabulous and wonderful.

No one wants to see an abandoned building sitting empty for years on end.

However, we still have our rights and we don't want to give them to you.

I am proposing a strict limitation.

Amend this ordinance to apply strictly and exclusively to abandoned or unoccupied structures where document safety emergency already exists.

Without this narrow focus, we are left with a slippery slope where any occupied home could be subject to a court ordered entry for routine code enforcement.

We should not be giving the government a skeleton key to our private residences.

And as Franklin warned, if we trade our core liberties for this kind of administrative safety, we will eventually find that we have lost both.

I urge you to listen to the precedent of our state courts and vote no on chapter 1.28.

Let's keep the government out of the living rooms of law-abiding citizens.

Thank you.

Thank you for being here this evening.

Sir, welcome.

Honorable Mayor Collins and uh council staff Scott.

You're here today.

My name is Steve Olsen.

I've been a resident of Cheyenne Wyoming for 14 years.

One of my primary concerns about this particular ordinance is uh the fact that there are certain individuals where they have abandoned vehicles and things, and we have a wonderful lovely town with a group of people here who are very tight-knit.

And one of the biggest issues that I have is is that I have encountered uh uh a single mother, uh, two children, and she has a vehicle, for example, who that's not been abandoned.

She's been paying her uh registration fees and things like that.

This is one of the primary examples of code enforcement that would, if this were to be passed, that a code enforcement officer could go right onto her property and issue an abatement, and then how is she able to afford the additional taxes and other additional liens that may be placed on the property?

Uh, if a landlord, for example, wasn't able to meet certain criteria based on that code enforcement, and these legislations were passed.

How would our citizens be able to afford this additional 50% increase uh based on the findings that they have?

Another primary concern that I have is that I don't know if these these things have already been issued, but there have already been several citizens who've already had code enforcement placed on them already without having any form of call or search or seizure.

So this is kind of a primary concern of mine as a citizen.

So I would strongly recommend that be repealed or removed entirely.

Thank you.

Good evening, sir.

How are you tonight?

I'm doing good, Mayor.

How are you doing?

Good.

Bring that there you go.

Uh my name is Clarence Fisher, and uh I live here in Mahome since 79 when I got out of military.

I've been here on and off.

I've become a permanent resident since 2020.

I own a business and I own a ranchette.

Uh and uh I wanted to come here, and I thank you, Councilman Wolf, for stating what you stated.

I wanted to come here to uh voice my opinion at this time.

I live in the county, and this is a city ordinance.

For now, it could advance to the county.

I'm gonna ask some questions.

I don't have enough time.

So if we could get a yes and no answer for one of y'all each question, I'll be done.

Um, this ordinance mostly is for business people who own uh business properties and buildings, am I not, right?

No, Mr.

Mayor, sir.

No, you're not correct.

Okay, it's for residents also.

Okay.

And does this cover dilapidated buildings of residents or just any resident?

Thousand circumstances.

Okay, that's uh what I needed to know, sir.

Um, I uh am opposed to this on that grounds, because if any ordinary citizen is given uh a warrant, administrative warrant to enter into anybody's property uh at any wheel of a council member or whoever, uh, because uh uh they believe that something's going on in that residence, or if they enter in that residence under the guise of inspection to make sure it's uh properly taken care of or whatever, and then they see something else uh, or they don't like something else that's going on in that resident, or or they don't like that person, then uh they'll say, oh, well, this property is okay, but privately they go and discuss something with the police or with somebody else.

Oh, we need to uh issue in a warrant for this or that because they're doing this and that in a property.

That's where this uh rule breaks down and is damaging to the citizen because we're entering in under the guise of one thing, but it becomes something else uh once they're in there.

So we need to uh rewrite this once you visit it, vote on it, come back to vote on it.

We need to revisit this and decide against it, unless it's reworded so that the citizens don't suffer uh this proposed ordinance.

Thank you, sir.

Thank you, Mayor.

Welcome, ma'am.

Good evening, Mr.

Mayor and Council.

My name is Aaron Edwards.

I'm a member of Ward One.

Um, I'm here to ask some questions, maybe rhetorical, maybe not, but some stuff for the council to consider.

Um, first one is how many instances of entry denial have occurred versus the number of times requests has been made?

If you're talking one out of every thousand, probably not warranted.

But if you're talking maybe 10 out of 10 requests are denied and there's an issue, maybe there's consideration for a conversation at that point.

But it'd really be interesting to find that out.

Some other issues are with this statute or this ordinance are some vagueness, which I know other people have brought up, but there's mentioned multiple times in here reasonableness.

So reasonable times, reasonable manner, what is reasonable?

It's not defined, and I think that that causes some vagueness that can cause some problems in the future.

Uh, if if you're talking reasonable times with city uh out the daily Monday through Friday time frames nine to five, eight to five.

Most people are at work, and if you're knocking on their doors while they're at work, that's not a good faith effort to try to make contact with them.

So, what is that reasonable time?

What is that reasonable manner?

When you're serving those warrants, that's the same question that applies.

If you're serving them, if they're at work, how are they going to be there to advocate for themselves?

And additionally, if they're not there because they're busy working, are you gonna bust down the door and just kind of break into the house?

How does that work?

You know, you haven't really defined any of that.

Furthermore, uh it doesn't include how the basis upon which the cause exists is obtained.

I think that that is important to include if you're going to move forward with this.

Um you need to support your probable cause.

You need to support your reasons for being there.

Um, additionally, in section C on page two, it says that the standards for conducting a routine periodic or area inspection.

So, what does routine mean?

Are we talking regular inspections just because you want to go in and see somebody's house, or is this because there is an issue?

So I think that there needs to be clarification on that.

Um, and additionally, with that in the same section, it says it's reasonably necessary to determine, discover, or verify the condition of the property.

Well, the words discover and determine imply that you don't have any proof of issues.

It implies that there's a fishing expedition to try to find reason to gain entry to the property.

That's at least what it appears to me.

Um, I can tell you that in my professional life, I deal with governmental liability.

And traditionally in Wyoming, the courts are not in favor of governmental entities when there is vague language, whether it's statutes or local ordinances.

And so I think that the vagueness here is a big issue, and it probably needs to be cleaned up.

At that point, you might have more support for it from the community.

I'm not sure.

I don't want to speak on behalf of them, but I can't tell you that the vagueness is a is a big issue, and that could come forward and cause some problems.

And it does cause some problems for me as a citizen.

You know, I like to live in my home free and safe and know that my city council's watching over everything.

Thank you.

Thanks for being here this evening.

Good evening.

Good evening, Mayor Collins and City Council members.

My name is Steve Millia.

I'm a Mr.

Mayor.

Sir.

Would you please ask the witness to remove his hat?

Government overreach.

Thank you, Steve.

Anyway, uh May Collins and uh city council members, thank you for this opportunity.

To be succinct, uh, everyone that has been before me has opposed this.

They have mentioned uh several different uh ordinances and uh our court cases, et cetera.

And Mayor Collins, you had uh read from the um constitution.

Constitution, and we do want to be secure in our homes.

And the idea of government to an extent is to grow and grow and grow.

And we do want to have our city council watch out for us, which would appreciate that.

And I would stand in opposition to this.

Uh Ms.

McCoy and Mr.

Brown had brought up some very excellent points.

The previous lady also brought up some very excellent points.

So not to go over all those, I'd like to reiterate everything that you've said.

I haven't seen anything that uh I disagreed with.

I do think that if it was rewritten, uh specifically only for abandoned properties that have been there for what a year, etc.

Then uh that would be good as opposed to just um annual small amount of time.

So I thank you for the opportunity to speak and uh have a good evening.

Thank you for being here.

Don't forget your hat.

Sir My name is Colin Crossman, your honor, members of council.

Uh I was not going to speak tonight.

Um, however, I will stress that I'm speaking in my personal capacity and not in my official capacity with uh with respect to my employer.

Uh I did want to correct something that I heard earlier.

And thank you, uh, mayor for reading the mayor.

Who is your employer?

Uh I am the deputy secretary of state.

You're the deputy secretary of state, yes.

Okay.

Um I'm here in my personal capacity.

Um, I do.

I live in ward one.

So I'm your constituent, sir.

Um you read from the U.S.

Constitution earlier, and you also mentioned that the Wyoming constitution was word for word identical.

That isn't correct.

The actual phrase is supported by affidavit, whereas the U.S.

Constitution says supported by oath or affirmation.

You're right.

The US, the Wyoming Supreme Court has held that that slight change has means that the Wyoming constitution is significantly stronger.

And that goes back to Hall versus State in 1996, as well as uh let me folsen v state in 2017.

So this is a long-standing uh principle under Wyoming law.

That's the only comment I wish to make.

Thanks for the correction.

I appreciate it.

I just glanced at it real quickly, and I thought it was word for word, but appreciate that.

Sir evening, uh Mayor Collins and distinguished counsel.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak.

Um, I'm John Thomas.

I live uh at the intersection there of Day and uh Pershing, so ward one.

Um I appreciate all the legal language that everybody's bringing up and the vagueness in the bill or in the ordinance.

Uh, and that's all very important, and that's that really is your job to hammer that out to make sure that the law works.

Uh, that's not what I'm talking about.

I stand in opposition to this bill because it violates the spirit of the Fourth Amendment, the Constitution of the United States.

My home is my castle.

That comes from what, 1603 in Great Britain.

They had a case, Siemens case.

It's an old law, it's an ancient law.

It's it's it is critical that the government, our elected governments, protect our rights and not look for ways to work around those rights.

I have never had a problem with the good people who it enforce building codes.

I've had them come to my house and look at work and found certain items wanting that had to be corrected.

And for that I am grateful.

And I have, and I do not believe that they are uh evil people with foul intent coming to my home looking for something.

That has nothing to do with it.

I trust those people implicitly.

What I don't trust, and it has nothing to do with the distinguished members of this council or our esteemed mayor, it is this is a violation of the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States.

And we weasel word our way around those amendments, and that's a bad idea.

I don't think there's too many people in this state that want me, we anyone weasling around the second amendment of the constitution.

The First Amendment, which is absolutely crucial to all of our liberties, is also something we don't play games with.

We shouldn't play with any of them.

So I would say I'm not here to say or to disagree with this ordinance uh that it needs to be wordsmithed and improved.

I think that it is a violation of the Fourth Amendment.

It is of at least a violation of the spirit of the Fourth Amendment.

Um the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated.

And I think if you started with that as your founding statement, uh, and then looked for a solution to the problem.

Um maybe you could come up with a different solution.

Perhaps there is a problem that needs to be addressed, but walking dangerously close to the free to the rights guaranteed in our constitution is is perhaps not the best way to go.

Thank you for your thank you for the opportunity to speak.

Thanks for being here this evening.

Thank you.

Good evening, Mayor and members of council.

Lee filer and my Lee File capacity, uh Ward one.

Um I'm here respectfully to oppose this this ordinance one point two eight.

Cheyenne has always been a city that values common sense, personal responsibility, limited government.

Hornets 1.28 moves away from these principles by expanding regulation in a way that creates more bureaucracy, more enforcement costs, and more uncertainty for residents and small businesses.

My concern is not just with the ordinance it tends to do, but with what it could do.

Once a new authority is created, it rarely shrinks.

Vague or overly broad ordinances often lead to inconsistent enforcement, unintended penalties, and decisions made or being made farther away from the people that they affect.

The city already has tools to address legitimate concerns through existing ordinances of state law.

Before creating new rules, we should ask is this truly necessary?

Is it clearly defined?

And does this and does it respect the rights and freedoms of Cheyenne residents?

Good government means solving real problems without overcorrecting.

intended penalties and decisions made or being made farther away from the people that they affect the city already has tools to address legitimate concerns through existing ordinances of state law before creating new rules we should ask is this truly necessary is it clearly defined and does this and does it respect the rights and freedoms of Cheyenne residents good government means solving real problems without overcorrecting ordinance 1.28 risks creating a solution in search of a problem while adding long term costs and restrictions that the public did not ask for I encourage the council to slow this process down seek more public input and consider whether this ordinance aligns with this with Cheyenne's values of fairness transparency and limited government for this reasons I ask you to vote no on this ordinance and I didn't want to bring up all the constitutional stuff because it's been brought up quite a bit so that's all I have to say mayor and council thank you nice having you here again tonight thank you sir did you want to speak wonderful bring that microphone right in front of you if you would you know this is you can tell this is a generational thing you know I would write this out on a piece of paper but all you guys are done all in the technology I'm impressed yeah I just lost it that's why I write it out I know if you want we can take someone else while you're looking for it anybody else want to speak somebody online we'll take that one first who do we have Jennifer Mr.

Alan Sheldon you should be able to unmute yourself Mr.

Sheldon all these people showed up you didn't what happened tonight you know I had an appointment uh that's coming up soon so I kind of had other obligations yeah but yes uh Alan Sheldon ward uh two uh Mr.

Mayor Council thank you for the opportunity to speak in uh opposition to the ordinance um I had speaking notes prepared on my laptop in this case um but uh so many people already had covered the points that I was gonna discuss um so in the interest of time I'll just ask that the council vote no on this ordinance thank you we'll just call that ditto thank you sir jennifer do you have any more welcome sir i have no other hands raised at this time oh I got one but go ahead we'll we'll let John go first welcome sir John poles Ward one Mr.

Mayor City Council um as somebody who's been had had a lot of my time wasted dealing with administrative people who have personally threatened me and bothered me at home and in my house I feel that this ordinance is an overreach um there's too much gray area where it needs to be worded specifically um there's too many problems involved in the ordinance where there could be overreach it just needs to be re reworded as far as the abandoned house thing I a hundred percent agree I've got a problem right next door to my home that has an abandoned house where we've had several people arrested so I don't agree disagree with it 100% but the wording on it is extremely vague and needs to be reworded in several ways so that's all I have to say thanks for being here John did you find it all right I'm Sam McGuinness I'm in ward three let me tell you why administrative warrants are the pinnacle of modern governance the kind of innovation that will usher in the glorious area of privacy is just a quaint relic of the dark age like a rotary phone unmonitored thoughts picture this a world where bureaucrats those unsung heroes in ill fit suits skip the pesky judiciary and just rubber stamp their way into your house your business your very soul why bother with judges who might hit heaven forbid demand actual evidence or due process that so 24th century or 20th century so inefficient so human supportative support administrative warrants because they streamlined justice into sleek automated dystopia where your front door is basically a revolving portal for inspectors imagine waking up to the hum of drones delivering your daily compliance check did you recycle your plastic fork correctly is your thermostat set to the government approved 68 degrees to combat climate change or are they secretly plotting against the planet well administrative warrants will eliminate is the chaos of warrants requiring probable cause instead of it's all about reasonable suspicion interpretation by the algorithm that knows you better than your spouse your smart refrigerator will rat on you for buying too much cheese.

Every unwarranted search creates jobs, more paper pushers to fill reports, more surveillance tech companies to install the mandatory home cameras for your safety, of course.

And thriving black market for tin foil hats because hey, paranoid is a new patriotism in utopia will be equal, equally watched, equally compliant, equally numb.

No more messy debates about right, just blissful submission to the all-seeing state.

Who needs freedom when you have efficiency?

Sir, did you want to speak?

Please.

Mr.

Mayor, my name is Caleb Wilkins.

I have historically been a resident of the city of Cheyenne until fairly recently when I moved into the county.

Have a number of properties throughout Wards in the city, and like to provide a brief comment on the proposed ordinance before us here today.

I must disclose that I've had a number of interactions with code compliance, and I'm happy to say every single one with no exception was positive.

I have seen instances where I wished code compliance actually had more authority.

And there have been instances I've run into with clients through my work as an attorney here in town, where I have certainly wished the fire department had more authority.

However, this is not the solution.

While it was in a slightly different context, I would like to go back to Federalist 51.

Um, this is the famous if men were angels.

It may be a reflection on human nature that such devices should be necessary to control the abuses of government.

But what is government itself?

But the greatest of all reflections on human nature.

If men were angels, no government would be necessary.

And if angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary in framing a government, which is to be administered by men over men.

The great difficulty lies in this.

Um power of the city.

But unfortunately, this ordinance as written is vastly overbrought.

I'm not here to argue the Fourth Amendment or the Fourth Amendment is adopted by the Wyoming Constitution, as Mr.

Crossman pointed out.

There are some differences there, subtle as they may be.

I am here to say that this ordinance allows far too much power and far too much opportunity for overreach.

I believe that Wyoming is very different than Portland than New York or Denver.

And with our current citizenry, our current laws, and our current I've I even would say castle doctrine.

This could very easily, particularly with the no-knock language, introduce a very real danger to our code enforcement officers as written.

Um, and some of those people I would dare say are friends, and I would not want to see them in danger.

As a result, I think it would be easier and more prudent to start from scratch.

This is so overbroad.

I would be happy in my private capacity as an attorney to sit down with Mr.

Brody or other individuals within the city and donate some time pro bottom, along with the number of other attorneys I work with to try and tailor this to fit the needs of Wyoming without being overbroad, and also allowing the government officials to do their job efficiently and protect the citizenry of this great city.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Thank you.

You're in fact suing the state of the city of Cheyenne, aren't you?

On behalf.

Point of order, Mr.

Mayor.

This has nothing to do with this uh ordinance and public hearing.

I would and unfortunately, the uh representative party rules would prohibit me from commenting on that.

No, they would not.

Point of order, Mr.

Mayor.

Public, Mr.

Wolf of order.

It has nothing to do with the business at hand.

Thank you.

I second that point of order, Mayor.

Mr.

Mayor, it has everything to do with this gentleman's credibility in front of us.

Point of order, Mr.

Mayor.

Point of order.

Ladies and gentlemen, we we've we've we've got it under control.

Thank you, Mr.

Wilkins.

Thank you for being here this evening.

Mr.

Mayor, were there any other questions?

I would be happy to stand for questions.

No, sir.

Thank you.

Thank you, sir, and have a good evening.

You too.

Anybody else who would like to testify this evening?

Anyone?

Online, Jennifer.

They raise their hands and then they take him down.

Hold on just a minute.

Uh Mr.

Miller, you should be able to unmute yourself.

Mr.

Miller, welcome.

Yes, hello.

Can you hear me?

We can, sir.

Okay.

Um, let's see here.

Good evening, council members.

My name is Charles, and I'm here to address chapter 128 of the proposed ordinance.

Um, it seems like a lot of people have touched on a lot of these points, but maybe they haven't hear uh a couple of the points I got.

The main point I wanted to make tonight is simple though.

The the chapter 128 uh it violates the law specifically, it violates two critical legal frameworks Wyoming state statute and the United States Constitution, particularly the Fourth Amendment.

Um there are actually four major violations in this ordinance.

First, that's the wrong judge.

The ordinance uses a municipal judge instead of a district court judge, which directly violates Wyoming statute section 35-7-1046.

Second, there's no pre-notice.

It allows secret warrants without notifying the property owner, which violates the Supreme Court's ruling in the Patel case.

Third, no hearing.

It issues warrant ex parte.

That means secretly without the owner present to argue their case.

Fourth, wrong scope.

It uses fire code authority for non-fire issues like weeds and zoning violations.

Let me walk through each of those in detail.

Let's start with violation number one state law.

Wyoming statute section 35-7-1046 is crystal clear.

It requires that district court judge must issue these administrative warrants.

But city ordinance 1.28 uses a municipal judge instead.

A judge who is hired and fired by the city manager.

The result the city is lowering the standard set by state law.

This makes the ordinance void ab initio.

That's a legal term meaning invalid from the very start.

You cannot use a lower standard than what the state requires.

That's not how the law works.

Now, um, let's talk about violations two and three secret searches.

In 2015, the Supreme Court ruled in City of Los Angeles versus Patel that administrative searches require two things.

Pre-notic to the owner, a pre-hearing before a neutral judge, but chapter 1.28 allows the city to skip both notice and hearing if they claim it would frustrate the purpose of the inspection.

Here's the reality announcing a search for weeds doesn't make the weeds disappear.

This exception effectively allows secret searches for every code violation.

That's unconstitutional.

The fourth amendment protects us from exactly this kind of government overreach.

Violation number four, misusing the fire code.

The Wyoming fire code, title 35-9-111 is limited in scope.

It applies only to structures that are especially liable to fire.

But the city is using this fire code authority for weeds, not a fire issue.

Junk, not a fire issue.

Zoning violations, not a fire issue.

Building code violations, not a fire issue.

The result the city is exceeding the authority granted by state fire codes.

You can't take a narrow power and expand it to cover everything that's not legal.

So in conclusion, here's my request.

Vote no on chapter 1.28.

If you genuinely need enforcement powers, then draft a legal ordinance.

One that uses district judges as required by state statute, one that requires notice and hearing as required by the constitution, one that limits enforcement to actual fire hazards as required by fire uh code scope.

This isn't about preventing enforcement, it's about doing it legally.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you, sir.

I'm sorry.

Um, thank you, Ms.

Merry.

Uh, thank you, sir, for your testimony.

Could you provide a number for that uh regarding the circuit court judge versus municipal court judge?

I didn't write fast enough the uh number.

Mr.

Miller, yeah.

Uh okay, I'm sorry, what was that?

Uh thank you, sir.

Just the uh the the code, the uh Wyoming state uh law, the number for regarding the circuit judge versus municipal judge.

Uh the district, it's actually district court judge, um, but it's uh second Wyoming statute section 35-7-1046.

Thank you, sir.

Uh it requires that a district court judge must issue these administrative warrants.

Jennifer, do you have any others online?

Yes, Mr.

Jacobson.

You can unmute yourself.

Welcome, Mr.

Jacobson.

Good evening.

Thank you, Mayor.

City Council for the opportunity to speak.

Um I became aware of this through reading some articles or reading the next door, and some of you have been on there.

Including uh Councilman Wolf.

And um because of this, I went back and I went to the city council meeting on the video, read the minutes of number one of the first reading.

Also went to the public service committee meeting and looked at that video.

I've also noted that there's three sponsors on this bill, this ordinance, and I've yet to hear anybody explain to me why this is necessary.

The public service committee meeting did have, I think the assistant um fire marshal, who did a very great presentation, but it's very interesting because he said, you know, we had this problem after the fire went out.

We weren't sure what we were gonna do, and then the next thing we wanted to go back, but the fire popped up, so we got to go back anyway because we didn't need anything.

I've yet to hear one example, one example, date, time, name, dress, or anything to say this is a situation that occurred.

I've never heard anything to say that this needed to be done, and if it did need to be done, how did you resolve the issue?

Or is it an ongoing problem?

In my neighborhood, I have places that you can visually see in the city that there's a problem, and the city's done near a thing about them.

Why is that?

I don't know why you need to have a thing like this.

You need to come into somebody's house.

I'm pretty sure I don't have any problem in my house because it's been was built by questionable, and I've had two of them.

I still have the house in the city of Larry's city of Cheyenne.

So I find it interesting that I have had no one tell me why it has to be done.

And as you really look at it, says um is for administrative to reasonably and necessary under any ordinance or other law.

In other words, this is so broad that if somebody thinks that there's a violation of any ordinance or any other law that they're supposed to be able to get an administrative warrant and go into your house.

Um you look at the ordinance, the very last part of it talks about building safety and it says building safety department staff under the direction of chief building officer, perform all plan review building inspections functions, including but can you conclude for me, please?

Well, the point that I'm making it makes no sense.

And if you have a problem, write a law, an ordinance that's specific for that.

If you got abandoned buildings, do that.

If you got a problem with adds in the in the buildings downtown that are a problem, then write law so you can cover that rather than including 61,000 people in the city of Cheyenne to be dealt with.

Thank you.

Appreciate it.

Anyone else want to speak this evening?

Jennifer, another one.

I have uh Mr.

Miller with his hand raised again.

Uh, we've already heard from Mr.

Miller, so let's go on to the people here in the audience.

Ma'am, welcome.

Nice to have you back again.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Bring that microphone down a little bit for me right now.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor and Council.

Um I came here tonight because I was interested in what might be going on, and it's been really quite interesting.

Um my suggestion is that you kind of sit down and redo it and figure out what's wrong with the with the proposal, and let's see what we can do with it.

I like um kind of sort of uh things that need to be done, and let's sit down and talk about it.

Thank you very much for your your at least attention to things.

Appreciate you coming again this evening.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Thank you so much, Mr.

Mair and Council.

Can you uh repeat your name for the record, please?

Oh, yeah.

My name is Marin Stallpe, and I just bought a new house in Sun Valley.

They uh renovated it, and I live at 4505 East 13th Street.

Must be you had to thought think about that for a minute.

So that's that's a really new house.

I had to look at uh Dr.

Aldridge, we have the same house number.

I've lived in China all my life, and all of these things that has happened, all of these things that could happen.

And it wasn't all that exciting to have to have this huge ordinance.

We're so happy you were here again tonight.

Thank you.

If you'd like to have any examples, we could do it off.

And then you're gonna go, oh my gosh.

Thank you so much.

Anyone else?

All right, last call.

All right, hearing none, we'll move on to uh Mr.

Seagrape for a motion.

Mr.

Mayor, the recommendation of the public services committee is to approve on second reading, and I so move.

Second.

Seconded by Dr.

Emmons.

All right.

Discussion for members of the governing body.

Dr.

Aldridge?

Yes, sir.

Well, thank you, Mayor Collins.

Um, and thank you to everybody who has come out tonight.

And for those of you that have given us military service, thank you for your service as well that mentioned that in your testimony.

Um, I have taken uh copious quantity of notes I've heard from many of you over the last week.

Um, I did um ask a lot of questions at the public service committee.

Um, and Andrew Dykeshorn, our fire chief, was um kind enough to answer those questions.

I've also done a lot of learning and research since that time.

And um I really believe that um if this is something that um is really felt to be needed, and I and the comment was made at public services committee that this is probably um less common than um rather than more common, that it probably needs to have some amendments made and to be reworked.

Um but um I share some of your concerns.

Um I also um know that while you know this council and our building officials and our fire department have good intentions.

Um sometimes we don't always think about the unintended consequences or the councils and the officials that are going to follow us.

And um I agree with many of you that um I think we may be putting our city employees at risk with the standard ground law and the uh you know castle law.

Um, if they would approach a door um and try and enter a property uh with an administrative warrant.

I'm going to do some more research on the three point at the 357 104.6 state statute um and some of the legal cases that were cited tonight.

Um, but the only way that I will be able to support this um piece of legislation is if it were to be amended um significantly for abandoned properties or things that are unoccupied.

Um, and over given proof of time and uh actually with more documentation.

I just think we need to raise the bar.

So for that reason, I'll be a no vote tonight.

Anyone else in the governing body?

Dr.

Emmons.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Um, I do I have a question.

First of all, the ordinance that we're talking about, we're we're really just amending the existing ordinance.

Is that correct?

The whole ordinance is new, Mr.

Brody.

Uh John Brody City Attorney.

So uh city code always allows through the adoption of the um international building codes and the international fire code uh for the authorized individual to seek an administrative warrant.

Um, however, those codes specify that they have to seek that warrant um in accordance with the procedures specified by law, effectively.

Cheyenne does not have those procedures specified by law, so there's a disconnect.

So, what the first part of the ordinance does is create a new uh section of municipal code, putting out the the process through which she would obtain a warrant, and then we amend um the chief building officials' authority to allow for uh him to apply for these types of warrants, and then we create the authority for the fire chief to apply as well.

So just to clarify, Mr.

Mayor, Dr.

Um so chapter 1.28 is brand new.

Mr.

Mayor, yes.

Okay.

Um thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

I have uh I want to make a comment.

Um first of all, and I know this is gonna be met with some different takes.

I don't believe that anyone in fire department, in building in the city council, anywhere in government at the city level has any interest in going into anybody's bathroom and looking in cupboards or anything like that.

This is specific to this was brought to us specific to a dangerous health and safety issue.

And I agree completely with um councilwoman Aldrich that obviously we need to take this back and look at the specifics.

But I also heard very clearly from several people that there is an issue.

We do have an issue with some safety of buildings that are potentially a threat, and we need to take care of that.

We can't just because people were upset about the first take on this, just scrap the whole thing.

So I'm gonna vote for this to go forward so that we can clean it up, come at it from the right perspective, so it does address the issue, the problem that has been brought forward.

So I just want to put that out there.

Mr.

Moody.

Thank you, Ms.

Mayor 3.

Wanted to thank everybody for your public comment, both online and here, because remember, you guys are our bosses, we represent you.

Um I will be a no vote because, as stated, if it applied to ban property, it'd be a different story.

It does not apply just to abandon property.

You guys correctly said it applies to all properties, and I do have an issue with that.

And again, the Wyoming Constitution is stronger.

I read some of those uh court cases that were mentioned, and I agree.

This does take it a step too far.

Okay, you cross that line the sand, and there are the reasons I'm a no vote.

If it needs to be heavily amended, then it's a poorly written ordinance.

So that's why I'd be better off just to scrap it, start from scratch, focus on abandoned buildings, and or unlawfully occupy abandoned buildings, folks on that, there wouldn't be any issues, but now there's plenty of issues.

Scrap it, and let's start from uh scratch again.

We got plenty of time, we don't have the 40-day or 20-day window like the legislature.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Ms.

Ruskabel, thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Through you since this is second reading, I'm gonna give the sponsors in the committee the opportunity to work on it.

Um there's been a lot of talk about abandoned buildings, and uh I'm gonna give you a little bit of real life experience that I had.

Uh my brother, he's a Vietnam vet, was living alone in our parents' old house.

Uh fireplace became detached from the house.

And as uh a brother, I was concerned about his well-being, as were my other brothers and my sisters.

So I went to compliance and I had my brother's uh fireplace red tag, so he couldn't use it.

Before that, the cinders that were coming out of that fireplace were not landing on his house, they were landing on your house.

And if we knew something that was wrong there, didn't do nothing about it in your house and all your worldly possessions burned down, would you come to us and ask us why we didn't do nothing about that?

I think you'd be a lot more pissed off than you are now.

No, uh temporarily, our brother is okay, but uh I think these days are numbered, and uh uh like I said, even he served in the Vietnam War.

Um I love my brother very much, and um so I have real real life experiences how this could actually save people's lives, and I stick to that triangle of uh public servant and stand between that triangle of health, welfare, and safety is for the citizens, and that's you.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

No one else in the governing body, Mr.

Wolf, Mr.

Mayor, thank you.

Through you, I've lived in the city for 51 years.

My wife's family has been here for a hundred years.

That probably I've seen plenty and know plenty about Wyoming values.

I see a lot of fear in this room.

You're afraid of government, you're afraid of each other, you're afraid of us, you're afraid of the future.

You're telling us that, gosh, what might happen with some elected official into the future?

Well, guess what?

We don't know.

We don't know what they're going to do.

All we know is what we should do.

And what you should think about.

And Councilman Escobel makes a great point, which is if you have a house next door to you, and your neighbor is not taking care of it.

What are you going to do?

You're going to call the city.

And you're going to ask the city to go and fix it.

And so when you make that phone call, what answer do you want?

Because you get one of two answers.

One answer you could get is we're fully aware of the problem.

We've been working hard on it.

We now have the right to actually go get a warrant and go and inspect the property.

Or do you want an answer that says, you know, we're really we are aware of this.

We know there's a problem.

But you know that the board of real orders don't want us to be able to go inspect that property.

There's some citizens in the town who don't want us to go to that property.

So we don't have the authority to do that.

So I'm sorry, you know, if that house catches on fire and burns yours down at the same time, don't call the city to complain about that.

So where are we from here?

There is a can I pause you for just a second.

Ladies and gentlemen, we listen very respectfully while you spoke with us.

We try to, okay.

So let's keep uh the city council.

Let's let's do the same.

Okay.

Thank you so much.

Mr.

Wolf, I apologize.

No, thank you.

There's a lot of misunderstanding about this.

Ma'am.

Ma'am.

Ma'am.

I'm gonna have to ask you to leave if you don't sit respectfully, please.

I I called it, I called him out of order.

Did I not?

Thank you.

Let's show respect.

Thank you.

Well, I'll summarize.

The law on this is actually quite clear.

Starts with the Supreme Court case in the 1960s.

Goes all the way up to today.

Courts around the country have found that administrative warrants are valid if they comply with the Fourth Amendment.

The Fourth Amendment requirements are that you get a warrant.

And that's exactly what this proposed rule does.

Now, can we improve it?

Sure.

We have a couple weeks to do that.

We have another committee meeting, and then we have another council meeting.

So if you have specific changes you want to propose to us, please come and bring them forward.

Um, but we don't need to hear more discussion about how this is government overreach.

That tells us nothing.

We know all that.

Come in and tell us exactly what you would like to see done.

I'm gonna vote in favor of moving this on to third reading.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Mr.

Moody.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

I just had a point of information.

Um, the email from the Board of Realtors, wasn't that just uh request of postponement and not for or against?

The email I got, sir, was for postponement.

Thank you.

Anyone else on the governing body?

Yeah, it's Ms.

Secret.

Very briefly, Mr.

Mayor.

Um, we've had a lot of lot of discussion on it, and a lot of it's very enlightening.

I appreciate that.

Um I don't I don't think I'm ready to give up on this.

Um, so I'm going to support it tonight.

Um, but I do hope that the committee um can find some common ground with the issues you brought up.

So um I'm gonna I'm gonna support it tonight, and uh we'll see what we can do with two weeks.

Thank you very much.

Dr.

Emmons.

Uh thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

I wanted to say one other thing.

I'm the new oncoming chair for the public service commission or committee.

So please do let us know.

Come to the meeting, let us know how you would like, you know, any improvements that you see so that we can look at building a better document.

So you're all being invited right now to have direct input into that.

So thank you.

Dr.

Rummens.

Or Hector Algies.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Happy.

Happy doctor.

Miracle, that's for you.

I would just like to remind everyone too that we also have counsel and coffee this Saturday morning from 9 to 11 at DOS Bog.

And if you have some suggestions, we would be more than happy to hear those then.

And I would uh, and I don't see, I think Caleb may have left, but um any of those of you that are attorneys that are willing to give us some ideas and um thoughts about how we can improve this and make it something that will um be able to take care of the properties that all of us are concerned about um that we know are a public safety hazard um or are abandoned or unoccupied.

Um we would love to hear that.

So and um I know we've got a big contingency of realtors tonight.

So um thanks for all that you guys do and for bringing forward your good ideas.

All right, Ms.

Label, did you want to speak?

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

We all received a uh policy brief from the fire department.

Could we have the chief come explain briefly what his concerns are laid out in this memo?

Chief.

Thank you, sir.

Uh good evening, mayor, uh members of council, Andrew Dykesorn, Fire Chief for Shine Fire Rescue.

Um, you just wanted a summary or description of the brief I shared with you, sir.

Um, through you, Mr.

Mayor.

Um, what I basically with uh city council member just for everybody's information tonight, um, was kind of the need for administrative inspection warrants in the fire service.

Um, this goes back to some U.S.

Supreme Court rulings um and where warrantless searches were actually done.

Um, and all those court cases were inadmissible.

The evidence was inadmissible.

Um so just trying to provide a clear operational policy for our folks.

Um, what these two things basically does is um provide for fire code inspections um under the International Fire Code uh 2024, which is adopted by this governing body.

Um we want to enter commercial occupancies um to do those regularly scheduled um fire inspections.

Um those are routine.

We do follow-up inspections.

Um we gain consent from the business owners to come on their property.

We work with business owners while we walk their property.

Um that's a pretty uh typical uh interaction for our fire service folks.

Um there are some times though, where we are denied entry to certain parts of a building for for whatever reason.

They're they're worried about security or proprietary information, things like that.

And um we continue to work through those conflicts with the business owners as we as we can.

Um, if we can't work through that conflict, um, basically we're stuck and we can't fulfill the need of our fire code, um, what state statute tells us as far as what we need to do to inspect those buildings.

Um, just for everybody's information, we do not inspect residential properties unless we are invited to do a home safety inspection, but that is not enforceable by our fire code either.

It's just guidance um for somebody's home.

Um the second aspect of this is our fire investigations.

Uh those are very complex uh things that we have to to work through.

Sometimes we don't know where the property owner is.

We can't find them to finish out some of these uh investigations.

So um often when the property owners are there and they show up, they want us to investigate the fire.

Um, we get um consent to investigation forms signed and work with the property owners continually for sometimes weeks and months to try to determine what caused a fire, work with insurance companies, everything.

So um, but sometimes we can't find property owners.

Um, and so at that point we're also kind of stuck.

Once the emergency uh ends and we leave that property, uh we can no longer go back to said property um without some type of tool, such as this administration inspection warrant to complete that out if we if we can't find the person if we can't gain their consent.

So um that's just the the few things I provided there.

Obviously, this has to go before a judge if we're going to request this.

We have to have a purpose um administrative probable cause.

Um it's just if we find something criminal in nature with a fire investigation, we already pause back up and let law enforcement be involved.

That's already our standing operating procedure.

So um hopefully that was a good summary for you all and kind of the information I uh had provided and stand for any more questions, sir.

Follow up.

Do you have a follow-up, Mr.

Labor?

Yes, I do.

Uh Chief, could you explain a little bit about uh the recent certification that our department received through the process that you uh work through to uh demonstrate that we have one of the finest fire departments uh in the country?

Uh through you, Mr.

Mayor.

Yes, that would be the uh accreditation process we work through.

Is that what you're referring to, sir?

Yes from the centers for public safety excellence.

Um, so yes, we uh we obtained and were awarded that um back April 1st of uh 2025.

Um pretty major milestone for our fire department to um ensure we're continually improving our operations, what we do, how we respond in the community.

Um most of it is community driven as far as uh gaining information of the services we need to provide for the community.

Um we do a complete full self-assessment of our uh fire department.

It's 475 pages if you at all would like to read it.

Um, I can provide that as well.

Um, we did a uh community-driven strategic plan uh back in 2023 to really listen to our community and get feedback on um where we should really uh dig into and enforce some of the the resources we provide and the services we provide for the community.

Um and then lastly, the last other piece is that we look at uh risk in our community, uh full spectrum of risk and and and where we're seeing the problems in our community and how we respond to those problems.

We make recommendations, we track um call times, response times, number of inspections, all those all those things, and how we're actually affecting that risk is what we need to show.

And for the audience sake, there was at that time just over 300 fire departments in the world that had reached that kind of accreditation.

So there might be what, 340 now in the world, something like that.

So it's uh it was literally 40,000 hours worth of uh work by our fire department to achieve that accreditation, and then they have to uh continue that every five years, they get re-evaluated to uh to maintain that was something we're really proud of.

Mr.

Leborn.

Uh thank you, Chief.

I'm wondering if uh the chief building official could step up and explain how uh he works with and interprets the uh international property maintenance code, which we have adopted and is online if anyone's interested.

This is a very complete and complex uh code that really lays out all the specific reasons why and how the chief building inspector has the ability to evaluate problems.

Could you uh help us with that?

Tono, can you let kind of share maybe how you would see this working for your department?

Uh, Mr.

Mayor, uh members of the council to um Councilman Labourne's questions.

Um my name is Tony Palmer.

I'm the chief building official for the city of Cheyenne.

I've served in the position for coming up on five years now with this jurisdiction address 21010.

Um the council, uh the city uh, through adoption and ordinance has adopted the international codes, and they stem they range from the building code to the fire code to the property maintenance code to plumbing HVAC, all of that is what's adopted.

Every one of these model codes has the language within it that gives either the fire code official or the chief building official the authority to gain entrance to structures where it is and there is probable cause that a life safety, health, and welfare issue exists.

The property maintenance code, uh again, another adopted code takes that to another level where we are dealing with abandoned structures, structures that have been left or are dilapidated to such an extent that they do pose a life safety risk to the public or to the inhabitants of that structure.

Um the codes clearly lay out when the building official or the fire code official can request that warrant.

They would clearly lay out what is required, and it clearly lays out that there needs to be a path through the city's uh official channels or or through the legal processes that make that possible for these officials.

Um Mr.

Labor is that answering the question that you had asked, sir.

Uh Mr.

Mayor, follow-up.

Um can you tell me uh, Tono, how many uh of these health and safety inspections you do, and uh how often you resolve the issue, and how often you expect to ever ask for a warrant.

Um, Mr.

Mayor, through you to uh Councilman Laborne.

Um a building official in any jurisdiction deals with this hundreds and thousands of times over their career.

That is our job.

That is the nature of what we do.

The instances that arise where a warrant is required would come down to a building permit is issued, a uh the work that's being performed is not code compliant, therefore, a stop work order has to be issued, and we cannot gain compliance.

That would be one instance where this would come up.

In my career of doing this, I have done it again five years here.

I've done it approximately five to six years in another jurisdiction, 11 years.

I have had to do this one time, or I've needed the avenue one time for a red tag scenario.

Um, my time with the city is uh enforcement of the property maintenance code.

This has come up maybe three to five times where we could not address the issue and gain access to the structure.

It was not, and it never has been because I was denied access.

I have always been able to have discussion with homeowners and be able to do that.

It has always come up to properties that are um vacant, not been able to get in there, and we are getting calls from the public in the opinion, or well, not even in the opinion, sir.

In the intention of the code is to be able to allow the building official who is answerable to the citizens and to this council to be able to gain access to address those life safety issues to protect them.

We are always dealing with the neighbor.

We are always dealing with the neighborhood and the people in this room, myself included.

If it's my neighbor, we all need an avenue to be able to get these problems addressed so that life safety, health welfare can be taken care of.

Thank you.

Ms.

Liberty Follow.

Um, yes, Mr.

Mayor, I have a few other comments to make.

Please.

This is something that I've dealt with uh personally, uh, as a citizen, as a gadfly, as a council person, and as an individual who has many times been not on the site of abandoned buildings and dangerous structures with the guidance of these professionals.

So I can tell you that unfortunately the reality that we live in today means that as unbelievable as it might seem, people are abandoning more property.

There are old buildings that are pretty much added.

And so, how how do you deal with them?

And I want to remind everybody here, and I'm sorry so many people left that property rights come with property responsibilities.

Very, very much so.

And the responsibility is to deal with these individuals who we've heard testimony tonight, seem to be doing a pretty good job.

This fear seems to come from some unidentified source, whether it's Boulder or San Francisco or Pennsylvania.

Right here in Cheyenne, Wyoming, these individuals that just spoke to you are not unelected bureaucrats.

And that term has been in my emails practically without exception.

Unelected bureaucrats.

So the conclusion that I reach is evidently there are individuals that want us, the elected officials, to be interpreting these codes.

And I'm calling them people who are trained extensively and have put in a lot of time and work on these issues, and it is something that uh might not be something that everybody has to deal with.

But I was just looking at the house earlier this afternoon.

It's been abandoned for a year and a half.

And I suggest to you that the property rights of the children that live across the alley from that house need to be taken into consideration.

Their mother called me.

Um, back.

And that is just one example.

There are examples that the compliance department can tell you about properties that we've been working on literally for years, four years, five years to get that dealt with.

Now that mortgage might have been sold and sold again until we don't know where it went.

That property owner might live far away and not care very much about our properties and our city.

So I want to emphasize this.

No one should have to have that kind of experience.

And many times, many times these individuals who are alleged to be unelected bureaucrats work through a problem and get that house flipped and people back in it, or buildings that are half burnt.

I mean, these are serious problems.

Um just really isn't the type of there is a big difference, and I appreciate the efforts of our city attorney's office here.

There's a big difference between the plain meaning of the language that we use and legal terms, and how those legal terms go up the ladder to the Constitution.

And I want to close with this.

When I raised my hand and took an oath here, that's for me to interpret.

And I take it very seriously, and I assume everyone else does.

And so I really don't think others should be saying that I'm violating the oath, my oath, because I'm not.

This is about property values.

But we have mansions that are abandoned.

We have structures that no one's lived in for quite a while that are falling down that need to go.

And we have homes in every ward and neighborhood that amazingly unbelievably have been turned into something that clearly falls outside the law.

So I just want to emphasize this.

But I do truly believe that we have to get away from individuals' interpretations of legal terms and the constitution, because I can tell you I take that oath very seriously and believe that what I have heard and seen in regard to this process very clearly comes from the Constitution of the United States to the Constitution of Wyoming to our city code in an absolutely legal manner.

So I appreciate you listening to me, and I'd be glad to uh take you out and show you some of these problems, because when we talk property rights, we've got to talk property responsibilities that go along with it.

And I'm sure that everyone that came here tonight exercises their property responsibilities as I do.

But there are people that don't, and we got to deal with them.

Thank you.

Mr.

Wolf, did you have a comment, sir?

Yes, thank you, Mayor.

Through you, um, I'd like to just uh support and amplify a bit on uh Councilman Labourne's uh comments, which I think are very well taken.

Um first of all, we have a I've been on the council not even two months now.

I'm in fact the only unelected bureaucrat up here.

Everybody else has been elected.

Um I don't consider myself much of a bureaucrat.

But what I've learned in that time and watching the city for as long as I've lived here, is that we have a very highly professional set of uh departments and department leaders.

I credit the mayor for uh a lot of that, but we have a tremendously professional fire department and police department.

We have a superb city engineer who's sitting in front here quietly, and uh and a city attorney and a treasurer, and it goes on and on.

And the degree to which you express all of this great fear about them and about what they're gonna do, these are not people who act irrational.

They're not people who act without a lot of thought and study and concern and consideration.

Uh and and so I'd ask you, as you consider your own remarks to us, and as you consider what we may do with this in the next couple of weeks, that you give them the credit that they're due.

And that probably applies to people in the future as well.

Um, so I want to I want to thank the mayor.

I apologize for being a bit out of order, uh, Mr.

Mayor.

Um, I want to thank Mr.

Laborne, who has the first time I met Pete Lebourne, he was over boarding up a uh an abandoned house, came and did just to do that.

Uh, that was decades ago.

And he's been a friend of mine for a long time.

So thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Thank you for this.

Thank you, all of you for coming here.

We encourage you to continue to meet with us and talk with us about this.

But uh, I think you have a fear about this that is uh I think exaggerated uh and largely unwarranted, but nothing's perfect.

And I've spent more than 40 years practicing law, and we can fix just about any kind of proposed ordinance um if we have uh uh the right uh comments, the right suggestions, and people acting for the right motives.

Thank you.

Yes.

Um two points of information I'd like to have clarified for the uh public who may be here in person are watching.

Where would they obtain the policy brief that was provided for the governing body um if they that was provided by the uh fire department if they would like to see what uh Chief Dykshorn was referring to?

If if we gave you a copy of that, could we put that on as an exhibit?

Mr.

Mayor, if that is your wish, can you put that on there?

We'll do that.

Thank you.

And my second point of information, um, I was just wanting, and really it's clarification from our uh building inspector.

When he was citing the UDC and the uh international property maintenance code, he talked about health safety and welfare.

And I just want to clarify does that read health safety and welfare, all three uh parameters have to be met, or is it health safety or welfare?

Just one of those three parameters has to be met, because I think that's a pretty significant difference and raises the bar or lowers the bar, depending upon how that is how that reads.

Can you articulate that, please?

Alridge the mandate from the codes is life safety health and welfare so all of those parameters have to be met or is or seek to be or sought to be met based on that code not just one like not just health or not just safety or not just welfare but all those parameters in totality Mr.

Mayor through you ma'am the uh Dr.

Albert sorry the codes as a whole are created to promote all of those through minimum standards as adopted.

Thank you any other comments from members of the governing body Mr White do you want to speak?

You've been so quiet tonight.

Yes Mr.

Mayor thank you uh a lot of information yes sir um I appreciate everybody who uh spoke to us during public comment both in person and online I also appreciate the uh presentations made by our fire chief and chief building official as well as the um articulate comments made by my colleagues um I am a sponsor of this ordinance full disclosure um based on what I've heard tonight um I I'm still gonna support moving this forward I do think um we'll be putting forward some amended amendments to uh perhaps clarify uh some of the language uh based on the suggestions uh that were made by some of the folks here tonight um but I will be move I will be supporting it tonight I do think and I and I think um this is really important the the proposed ordinance and granted perhaps it does need to be a a bit more narrowly tailored but when we talked about that uh city uh the Hale versus City Alarmy that the uh Wyoming Supreme Court just decided last month we utilized that for this ordinance because that decision said any type of administrative warrant has to be supported by evidence and it has to be reviewed by a court and it can't be rubber stamped and I heard some comments earlier that if by by engaging in this it's just gonna anybody can go in anywhere it it'll be rubber stamped and that's just not the case it's not so I think the ordinance intent is to protect both public safety and constitutional rights.

I'm not an attorney I appreciate the um code that was cited earlier saying it can't be a municipal court judge it has to be a district court judge I want to I want to uh air that out and see if that is in fact the case if it is we'll change the language in the ordinance to comply with that um but I will be supporting it moving forward all right last comments I see none all right the motion is before us is to approve the ordinance on second reading all those in favor please signify by saying aye aye aye those opposed no doctor aldry mr moody and doctor renew are nose the ordinance is approved on second reading we need to take a five minute break Mr.

Escobel we're gonna take a five minute break and and we'll come back what about Mr.

Mr.

Moody, I'm calling the meeting back to order, sir.

Madam Clerk, read the next item, please.

Number eleven, ordinance, first reading, annexing to the city of Cheyenne, Wyoming, various tracts of land completely surrounded by current city limits situate in eastern Cheyenne, generally located south of Story Boulevard, east of Powder House Road, north of Del Range Boulevard, and west of Ridge Road.

Number thirteen, ordinance first reading, amending five point seven point three accessory dwelling units of the Cheyenne Unified Development Code to remove owner occupancy and adjust parking requirements for accessory dwellings and making conforming amendments to the definitions of an accessory dwelling and semi-attached dwelling under one point four point four descriptions of uses of land and buildings.

Could you look into the problems of private equity firms buying up now with single family homes, residential areas?

I know uh President Trump has actually come out uh to make a federal ban of doing that bipartisanly as well.

Could you guys look into that as well, too?

Because that is a major issue now with housing affordability across the country.

Mr.

Moody, in this case, I think you're conflating the issue.

Um, the company that we're dealing with uh has many divisions.

One of those divisions is a private equity company, but the division that we're working with to build the homes, both Wasatch and I apologize.

I can't remember that the uh portable housing group there, they're not owned, managed, and they don't hold uh housing in an uh uh a private equity firm.

It just happens to be one of the divisions of that company.

Pause is looking at the problem.

Turn your microphone on, sir.

Oh, thank you, Mr.

Murray.

I was looking at from a whole perspective, uh, just making sure it doesn't happen even outside of that.

That's all.

Understood.

Anybody else on the governing body?

Hearing none, all those in favor, please signify by saying aye.

Aye, aye, and those opposed?

No.

The uh resolution is adopted with Mr.

Moody.

No.

Next next item is number 22A on page four.

Agreement between the city of Cheyenne and Ring Central LLC for providing cloud-based enterprise telecom services for all city departments and divisions.

You know, we had to take this off of the consent agenda.

Um, our aging telephone system is no longer supported, and uh, we found a company that would support our our software.

Oh, Tyler's here.

I don't need to tell the story.

You tell it.

Turn that microphone on, Tyler.

All right.

Um, good evening, Mayor and members of council.

My name is Tyler Nelson.

I'm with City IT.

Um, Mr.

Mayor, through you, the request for approval you have before you is concerning the agreement between the city of Cheyenne and Ring Central LLC.

Um, the city's current on premise phone system has reached end of life as support for the software is expired and no longer being developed.

Um we wanted to remove this item from the consent agenda due to the $65,000 amount that was approved in finance committee last Tuesday on the 6th.

The amount, the amount is the total to satisfy the quote on page two that was provided, and the amount IT looks to spend the amount that amount is the amount it looks to spend out of the current fiscal year budget to get the project started, but the amount did not represent the amount of the 36 month term of the agreement.

Um all city council members have been supplied with the supplementary cost breakdown page.

Um, this breakdown page includes monthly reoccurring costs, hardware costs, one-time costs, as well as free months of service, which reflect as discounts or savings.

Um, that can come with the subscription over the term of the agreement.

Um I'm here to field any questions if there are any.

I can answer those best I can.

Is anybody in the government body have a question for staff, Dr.

Aldridge?

Uh Mayor Collins through you.

I am wondering um so um used to be in the telecom business myself and working for ATT, and I'm just curious about um this is for um is this for just landlines, or does this include cellular and uh the phones that our employees carry along as well as the desk phones?

Ms.

Nelson Nelson, Mr.

Mayor, through you uh to councilwoman Aldrich.

Um this service includes the uh telephone system the city uses back end.

It does not include cell service like Verizon Service, does not include uh landline service that would be provided through a landline provider.

It's basically our on-prem telephone service that we we provide and we manage.

Basically our desk phone is a good idea.

You could say it that way.

Um, desk phones, um anything like that.

It is a cloud service, so we're we're migrating from an on-prem installation to a cloud-based service.

Thank you.

Anyone else?

Thank you, Todd.

Appreciate it.

Anyone in the audience would like to speak to the agreement?

Hearing none, Mr.

Leiborn on 22a.

Mr.

Mayor, the recommendation would you turn your microphone?

Excuse me.

Mr.

Mayor, I move to amend the total dollar amount.

Can I get a motion first and then we'll okay, Mr.

Mayor?

The recommendation of the finance committee is to approve an amount not to exceed $65,000.

And I so move.

Second.

Seconded by Mr.

Moody.

Mr.

Liborne.

Mr.

Mayor, I move to amend the total dollar amount of the contract to 324,750 and 58 cents over 36 months.

Second.

Seconded by Mr.

Moody.

All right, we'll go back out to the audience.

Where we have a change in the price, and it's not just for the rest of this fiscal year, but it's actually for 36 months.

Anybody in the audience want to speak to the amendment?

Jennifer, you have one.

Yep, I have a Mr.

Miller with his hand raised.

All right.

Yes, I would I was just wondering is this actually Google Corporation that you guys are contracting with?

Mr.

Nelson, is Ring Central Google.

Tyler Nelson, uh City IT, Mr.

Mayor, through you.

Um Ring Central is not affiliated with Google.

Thank you.

Did that answer your question, Mr.

Miller?

Yes, sir.

Anyone else in the audience?

All right.

How about from the governing body on the amendment?

Anyone?

Hearing none, all those in favor, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Those opposed.

We're back on the main motion.

And I would like to note that we have 58 cents.

Makes me think of Mr.

Royble.

Thank you.

Any comments from members of the governing body?

Hearing none, all those in favor, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Those opposed.

Uh the agreement is approved as amended.

Next item is number 24A on page five.

Voucher report.

Is there anybody in the governing body or in the audience that would like to speak to the vouchers this evening?

Next item, please.

24B announcement that due to the Martin Luther King Jr.

holiday on Monday, January 19th, 2026.

The regularly scheduled city council committee meetings will instead be held in City Council Chambers 2101 O'Neill Avenue, Cheyenne, Wyoming, and via electronic conference meeting as follows.

Public Services Committee will meet Tuesday, January 20th, 2026 at noon.

And finance committee will meet Wednesday, January 21st, 2026 at noon.

Announcement of a special meeting to be held January 23rd, 2026 at 12 o'clock p.m.

in city council chambers, 2101 O'Neill Avenue, Cheyenne, Wyoming, and via electronic conference meeting to consider the transfer of ownership of Retailer license application filed with the city clerk's office for Westby Edge LLC doing business as West B Edge Brewing, 714 West 20th Street, Cheyenne, Wyoming.

License currently held by Scooter Scoreboard Inc.

Announcement that a committee of the whole meeting will be will be held Wednesday, January 14th, 2026 at 6 o'clock p.m.

in city council chambers, 2101 O'Neill Avenue, Cheyenne, Wyoming, and via electronic conference meeting, other business.

All right.

We'll go out to the audience.

Is there anybody in the audience this evening who would like to speak to the governing body under other business?

All right, hearing none.

How about from the governing body?

Dr.

Aldridge.

Mayor Collins through you.

I would just like to again remind everyone about council and coffee in Ward 3 on January 17th this Saturday at Dosbog on the east side of town from 9 to 11.

Um and kudos to my ward one um colleagues who held a very successful council and coffee for their first one.

Um welcome to the council and coffee club.

Um we also wanted to remind everyone that there is a chili cook-off that the city council will be participating in this Friday night that will be held at the Archer um event center from 5 to 8 p.m.

that will benefit the boys and girls club.

So we encourage everyone to come out and vote for uh councilman Escabel's green chili and councilman award-winning green chili.

We he won't he'll never let us forget that.

And councilman Lebourne's red chili.

Make it red chili.

Oh ladies and gentlemen, I've witnessed and eaten both.

They're delicious.

Very, very good.

Mr.

Moody, did you have something?

Uh yes, sir.

Uh thing, Mr.

Mayor, through you.

Uh, just a reminder of the public, we do have a we do have a uh this Wednesday can council the whole for six pennies.

So please come to make your public comments.

Great.

You know, public comments there.

Please like to have a lot of people give their input.

I will not be able to make counsel and coffee on Saturday.

We have to meet with uh constituent, another issue, and also just to pray for the protesters in Iran and because of the uh hopefully they'll end that uh theocratic regime.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Mr.

Wolf, did you have comments, sir?

I'm sorry.

Okay.

All right.

Well, if we have no other comments, um Mr.

Seagrave.

Mr.

Mayor, pursuant to Wyoming statute.

Just turn on your microphone.

Microphones, Mr.

Mayor, pursuant to Wyoming statute section 1644 7.

I move that the governing body meet an executive session to consider or receive any information classified as confidential by law.

Is there a second?

Second, seconded by Mr.

Labourne.

All those in favor of going into executive session, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

And those opposed.

Ladies and gentlemen, um, we're gonna go into executive session.

When we come out, we're just going to adjourn the meeting.

There'll be no other business of the governing body.

We wish you well and thank you all for coming this evening.

It was entertaining.

We loved having everyone here.