Doctor Ald Dr.

Aldrich.

Mayor Collins.

Present.

Dr.

Emmons.

Mr.

Eskobel.

Here.

Mr.

Layborn.

Here.

Mr.

Moody?

Here.

Dr.

Rennie.

Mr.

Seagrave.

Mr.

White?

Present.

Mr.

Wolf?

Here.

Four members are absent.

We do have a quorum.

Thank you.

Would you join me in the Pledge of Allegiance?

Collective Labor Bargaining with Cheyenne Professional Firefighters.

Thank you.

Ms.

President, if it'd be okay, I'd like to go into executive session, take the council and maybe just go through uh the things that we've talked about since our last meeting next Monday, if that would be okay with you.

Absolutely.

Okay.

Yes.

If I could if I could just make a request.

Yes, yes, sir.

Okay, thank you.

Yes, we did.

I think I need a motion to uh go into executive session, madam clerk.

Second.

Move by Mr.

Moody, second by Mr.

Escobal.

All those in favor, please signify by saying aye.

Hi.

Those opposed.

All right.

I texted him, see if you could see you unmuted yourself, but I just couldn't hear anything, so I hear you now.

And just for the record, Constance Crave was in the meeting when you guys broke into executive session.

I just didn't notice the device he was on.

We had him included in our discussion.

Thank you.

All right, sir.

Do you want to start?

Thank you, Mayor.

Yes.

Yes, I would.

Mayor Collins, Councilmembers, City Representatives.

Before we begin discussing the issues in front of us today, I'd first like to thank Mayor Collins, Chief of Staff Ash, Chief Dyke Shorn, and the rest of the fire administration for their time and all the effort that we've committed over the past several months in the labor management meetings.

Those meetings have been productive.

A great deal of time was invested on both sides, and as a result, we are able to make meaningful progress in several areas affecting our members and the department as a whole.

We appreciate the professionalism and willingness to engage in those conversations.

However, while progress has been made in a number of areas, the number one priority right now for the International Association of Firefighters Local 279 remains firefighter wages.

For the continued progress we began during those labor management discussions to move forward, this issue must be adequately addressed during these negotiations.

With that in mind, we'd like to focus today on the structural wage gap facing Cheyenne firefighters.

We are here for one reason.

This is not about enrichment, this is about alignment.

According to the IFF wage comparison exhibits, Cheyenne firefighters are 20.6 percent behind on year one, 29.9% at year six, thirty-four point four percent behind at year eleven, thirty-four point four percent behind at year 16, 34.4 percent behind at year 21, and an average of 30 31.5 percent behind on that 20-year average.

We're also 34.4 percent behind at maximum wage maximum base salary, excuse me.

This is not a temporary dip.

This is a career-long compensation deficit.

When total compensation is examined, including longevity, holiday pay, and all standard firefighter allowances, the gap still ranges from 28 to over 32 percent behind market.

This is not solved by steps, this is not solved by colas, this is not solved by allowances.

It is a structural wage table problem.

It is not limited to firefighters.

Engineers are approximately 38 percent 38 percent behind market at entry.

Lieutenants are approximately 37 percent behind.

Battalion chiefs are over 42 percent behind market.

When promotional ranks are 30 to 40 percent behind peers, that affects morale, retention, recruitment, and long to part long-term department stability.

Now let's address the other side of the equation, ability to pay.

The city's fiscal year 24 municipal financial analysis shows a general fund balance of 55.8 million, an unreserved balance of 54.4 million, a fund balance equal to 78.9 percent of annual expenditures.

The j government Financial Officers Association recommends a minimum of 16.67 percent.

Cheyenne operates at nearly five times that benchmark.

In FY24 alone, the general fund increased by nearly 22 percent.

Revenues exceeded budget projections by over 21 percent, while expenditures came in under budget.

This is not a city in financial distress.

This is a city in strong fiscal condition.

So the issue before us is not whether Cheyenne can afford a market alignment.

The issue is whether the market alignment is a priority.

We are not asking to be the highest paid.

We are asking not to be one-third behind.

We recognize the magnitude of correction required, and we are willing to discuss a structured phase market adjustment, but the data is clear.

The current wage structure is significantly below regional standards, and the city has the financial capacity to address it.

Thank you.

Okay, I know we've talked about this a little bit, but um when I look at um the pay differential between um what I consider to be our peers, um, I don't see anywhere near that number.

So why don't you walk us through who you think those peers are and who you are comparing salaries to so we can maybe have a clear understanding of that?

Absolutely.

So in our wage comparison studies, which have been uh put in each of your packets uh with our initial proposals, that includes mining departments such as Laramie Fire, Casper Fire, Rock Springs.

Who else we got?

Campbell County.

We did exclude uh Jackson Hole and Mills Fire both, as they're both extremely high or extremely low.

In addition to that, we did include departments on the front range to include Greeley, Loveland, Pooter, and other regional departments outside of the front range that are comparable in size to Cheyenne Fire, such as Rapid City, Billings, and Grand Junction.

Can you maybe just share with us how you think Billings, Montana, Rapid City, South Dakota, Grand Junction, Colorado, how those are peers to us?

Their demographics are very similar to Cheyenne Fires as far as size, call volume, et cetera, as far as a professional firefighter or fire department goes.

And do you feel like the uh, or do you know, is the uh um the way their municipalities are funded similar?

That I don't know how their municipalities are funded, off the top of my head.

No, I do not.

You know, because from my perspective, you know, when I look at this, I look at, you know, Casper, Sheridan, Rock Springs, Laramie, and Campbell County as being peers.

Um we all are in Wyoming, we all are funded similarly to uh each other.

And um, you know, I think that's a fair comparison.

Um Greeley, um, Pooder Valley, um, Loveland, Rapid City Billings, Grand Junction, they fund their communities much differently than we do.

And so, you know, the ability for them to do things um is probably a little different.

And so, you know, I'm willing to look at the the communities that you know have similar funding sources as we do.

Um quite frankly, I don't know that those other ones really are relevant.

Uh I have to disagree with you, Mr.

Mayor, especially when it comes to the front range, that is the same pool of firefighters that we draw from.

So we are in direct competition with them.

So when I look at a lot of these numbers, I think you guys helped us with as we were going through this.

Um, the difference between like a probationary firefighter or um, you know, the the firefighter ranks engineers.

Um not 38 percent or 31 percent or 30 percent behind.

You know, there might be a couple percent.

I would agree with that.

Um, honestly, I I don't I don't I don't think we're gonna be able to agree on on the peers, and if we can't agree on the peers, I don't know how we agree on the solution.

Okay.

Um that 30 percent does include the front range.

Once again, they are our geographical neighbor.

We're in direct competition with them for for the same group of firefighters, the same personnel.

That's the ones that we've in the past lost firefighters to, including one that we did lose uh during the academy uh within the past couple of years.

You know, Mr.

President, I I recognize that that's an argument you have used a lot, but we've gone back and looked for the last decade, and um we've had no trouble recruiting firefighters, and we quite frankly we just have lost very few firefighters.

We lost one to Sheridan, we lost one to be a farmer.

Um, you know, uh the wife uh moves and uh the firefighter goes with them.

But you know, when you look at our our classes, when we uh when we hire our firefighters, you know, if we were to hire five firefighters today, probably four of them, at least four of them are going to retire at Cheyenne Fire and Rescue.

Okay.

Um I would say that that is a an outstanding ability to retain firefighters.

We provide them with great facilities, uh wonderful training, great environments to work.

Um I don't think we're losing firefighters to Greley and Pooter and those types of places.

So you can make that argument, but I don't think the facts back that up.

Okay.

Um we can agree to disagree on that one.

Um I do know of firefighters who are actively looking on the front range because the wage difference is so great, and they do not have a residency requirement that they have to move down there, they can still stay here.

Yeah.

In addition, I would say as far as Wyoming departments go, we're not even at the 50th percentile for uh career departments in the State of Wyoming.

And that's what that what our proposal would get us close to is about the 50th percentile.

So describe to me what a 50th percentile is, because again, you have made that claim before, but uh I don't think we have any sort of uh wage gaps or wage what's the word I'm looking for pay pay bans uh that I'm aware of for uh firefighters.

We have not really studied that.

And uh, you know, if I took the uh the average of the five or the six departments, Cheyenne, Casper, Sheridan, Rock Springs, Laramie, and um uh Carbon County or Campbell County, uh the the average for probation or firefighters is sixty-three thousand five hundred and eighty-one dollars.

Um and we're at sixty-one thousand two hundred ninety-four now.

So we're a little bit lower than that, you know, a couple thousand dollars, but we're not thirty percent lower.

That would be twenty thousand dollars.

Um if I look at a uh uh a probationary or the net the first level uh after you get off probation and you are a firefighter four, um, the average of all those departments is 71,595.

We're at 69,000 today, so we're about $2,000 below.

Um when I look at lieutenants, you know, we're above that by uh $5,000.

When I look at uh captains, our starting pay for a captain is eleven thousand dollars.

Um we look at the starting wages for a battalion chief, it's $8,000 higher.

Um in our firefighter ranks, our engineer is $7,000 higher than the average starting, but we're about $4,000 lower at the highest rank of an engineer.

Um a firefighter one, which is you know a career firefighter at the end of the, you know, if they don't ever promote, we're at $76,000 and it's $78,000, almost $79,000.

So we're a couple thousand dollars lower than the average of all of the Wyoming departments.

Um, sir, I can't come to I just can't do the math and get there.

And I tried.

Okay.

And and I do want to point out you're talking about the starting wage for each of those ranks.

That does not include the top-out wage for each of those ranks.

You're talking with with uh specialty pays and uh thank you.

So for example, I'm gonna pull up uh Campbell County right now in front of me.

So we may start an engineer at a uh a higher rate than what Campbell County does, but we're $10,000 behind for a topped-out engineer.

For a captain, which it look the way I'm reading this, their captains are equivalent to our lieutenants.

They don't use a captain in the way that we have recently introduced.

Their company officers are called captains.

We are ahead at the beginning, but topping out once again, we fall behind by $12,196 per year.

Yeah, we start off with $25,000 higher, and at the end, uh we're about $12,000 lower.

So we're we're we're hitting that ceiling, our guys can't break through that ceiling with that one.

Uh another Laramie fire is very similar.

We start off higher at a higher rank.

So we are about $2,925 for a step two engineer, but a topped-out step one engineer is $4,500 behind Laramie Fire.

A captain, once again, over there, they're using their captains, much like our lieutenants as a company officer.

We start off $7,462 ahead, but topping out, we're behind by $1,418.

Battalion Chiefs, we're $570 ahead annually when we first start, but when we top off, we're over $10,000, $10,471 behind them.

But that's not $30 percent.

No, the 30% includes all of the departments that I spoke about.

And we're not asking for 30 percent to clarify.

So I uh you know, I I thought I looked at what you were talking about as far as getting, you know, to the average of the of the state.

And um, you know, and I did that math, and we're pretty close.

I mean, I think we have a little room to move, but uh, we're pretty close to that average.

Um at each of those ranks.

I mean, there's there's a couple outliers on both sides, but um, but I think we're pretty dang close.

I I I don't fully agree on that.

Looking at the numbers, we're we're significantly behind, and I can't exclude the front range when many of those departments are closer than our departments.

Or Wyoming departments, excuse me.

Got a challenge if we can't even agree on our peer groups.

I I can't exclude uh geographic at a state line.

Do you accept that there is a difference in in the way that uh you know, Colorado and Montana and maybe South Dakota, you know, how they fund their cities and and how they're able to uh um you guys all know how uh Wyoming is.

Um it's pretty difficult to compare um departments when uh you know they're funded completely differently, and they have the ability to do things that quite frankly we just we just can't.

Without me looking at exactly how they fund their their departments, I I can't agree at this time on that.

Um I do know that like I've said before, that there these are geographical neighbors.

Um I'm looking at similar demographics.

These are departments that are actively looking for lateral transfers and and would be willing to uh use Cheyenne Fire as a training ground, which is what we're in danger of becoming again.

So how many fires are in Pooter Valley?

How many how many firefighters do they have?

I don't know what the top the number off the top of my head.

How about Greeley?

Not off the top of my head.

Rapid City, Billings, Loveland.

No.

Do you do you know those numbers, sir?

No, I don't consider them to be my peers, so I have no I have no interest in knowing that.

Okay.

But if they're gonna be the peers, I think we should know more about where they come from, how they are funded, uh, because quite frankly, I don't believe that there are peers.

Okay.

I I'll come back with some more of that that data for you then.

Okay.

No, quite frankly, I'm not sure how to proceed from here.

If we can't agree on the peers, I don't know how we talk about how to bridge a gap that maybe I think we both see, but um the breadth of that, I don't know how we do that.

Okay, pulling some numbers um as far as Wyoming firefighter pay ranking with Jackson removed from that as well, and Mills also removed.

We ranked number six with here's the order that's showing Casper, Rock Springs, Sheridan, Campbell County, Laramie, and then Cheyenne.

Casper is approximately $92,000 top firefighter pay, Rock Springs is $90,000, Sheridan is $88,000, Campbell County is $87,000, and Laramie is $86,000, and we're sitting at $74,198.

I think those are the numbers before the 3% call that went into effect in January, right?

That may be.

I would have to double check that, but that's definitely 3% would not remotely make up close to that.

And that number that you gave us for Casper, you know, because what I see here for firefighter one is they get paid $80,679, and you came up with a number in the 90s.

How did you come up with that?

Is that total compensation for those guys?

Stand by their contract.

That was per their contract.

The number that you gave me at our last meeting was firefighter one makes $80,679, a five four thousand dollars, five point two percent difference.

Stand by, we're pulling it right now.

The Sheridan number for Firefighter One is um 75,917.

We're at 76,633.

Um right, Rock Springs is a little higher, third eighty-three, and we're at that seventy-six number.

Um Laramie is at 79,920, and we're at 7663, so we're $300, $290 difference.

Um Campbell County, which is a little different because you have the county and the city, you know, collaborating.

So we have much larger um government to be able to pay for that, but they're at 798 36, and we're at 7663.

Um for what rank is this again instead of firefighter one step one.

Jackson, you're right, they're 116,000.

Um with the cost of benefiting them.

Exactly.

But to be fair, that that that's a number.

They're they're 40,000, $50,000 higher.

Um but those are the numbers that that you guys shared with us at our last meeting.

Um it could be that the numbers you have that you're talking about might be the total compensation when you add um everything as far as like longevity and specialty pays, EMT pay, and that kind of stuff.

We could go back and do that same thing, and I think you're gonna find we're probably at the same place.

Um when we look at longevity, um, when I looked at it, it was like one and a half or two percent of of pay, same thing with specialty pays.

Um it's a couple thousand dollars a year for EMT.

Um so you might be conflating those things.

It's about twelve hundred dollars a year for EMT approximately give or take.

Did you get it?

Yeah, I don't know what.

All right.

Disregard our earlier statement on the the Casper.

I think I think it was calculating something wrong for us.

Okay.

So I do withdraw that.

Okay.

So I think our numbers are not that far apart, and I don't know that we're in a position where we can't figure out a way to uh to come close to that.

I mean when I'm when I look at what we need to do to to get where we're at the average, you know, I think we're we're about three percent different um between our numbers and the average in the state of Casper shared in Rock Springs, Laramie, and Campbell County.

We're we're we're right there.

With the exception of Lieutenant.

That seems to be one that that we're a little bit higher on.

Um for that lieutenant rank, though, most of the other departments in the state are are calling them captains.

So we utilize captains in a new way that we haven't used before.

They're almost like a um uh yeah.

Uh second hand to for the battalion chief, so we do have to compare captains to our lieutenants at other departments.

And our top out is is far behind on that.

So Cheyenne Fire, our lieutenant max base wage is $91,000.

Campbell County is $112,000, $678 for captain.

Casper is $100,000 per year.

Um Jackson Hull, I'm gonna leave them out, like we've talked about.

Laramie is $96,687 per year.

And Bill's is kind of an oddball one that we've been excluding as well.

They're low end, much like Jackson is the high end, and Rock Springs is $102,556 compared to once again for Cheyenne Fire Lieutenant, $91,000.

There's more than a three percent gap in the U.S.

It's interesting because that's what they pay their BC also.

So I'm wondering if they can they're conflating some of those $102,000 or $800 is which department for BC, I'm sorry.

Rock Springs, they pay their BC.

So a starting battalion chief starts at the same wage as a topped-out company officer.

Um I would do believe that uh with their step system that they have in place, uh they have a lot more steps, and when there's a promotion, you're supposed to jump to the step that's at least five percent higher than what your current current uh step wage is at.

So topped out.

Um we can talk about battalion chiefs as well.

Cheyenne is at $103,609.

Campbell County is $123,965.

Casper, $109,192.

But you're you're talking about the the topped-out number for battalion chiefs.

Correct.

And you you gave our entry-level battalion chief salary.

Did I?

If I did, I'm I'm sorry about that.

$103,609, sorry about that.

R BC is $10709, right?

No, I've got 103609 for a BC.

Can we pull that up?

Actually, where's that spreadsheet?

With sorry, those these numbers did not have our three percent call up from the study, so you are correct.

10718.

Okay.

I will concede that one.

But for Campbell County still 123.

Casper is 109.

Laramie is 11.

Rock Springs is 122,000.

Sheridan is 69,000.

98,000.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Yeah.

Sorry, my yes, thank you.

And the average of all the departments is 113.

Yeah.

And again, we're I mean, with where there's definitely a little bit of a difference there, but again, you know, it's not a 42 percent difference from my perspective.

When you're only including the Wyoming departments, that is correct.

But if you're including the departments that I mentioned before, yes, we are.

So when you talk about Rock Springs and Billings, how are they competitors of ours?

They're similar in size.

Well, they're not really similar in size, but let's Rock Springs is smaller than us, correct?

Rapid City.

You said Rock Springs.

I apologize.

Rapid City and Billings.

You know, your argument for the front range is that, but how how do you uh look at billings and uh and rapid city as being our peer group?

Uh once again, and we look for departments that were similar in demographics and size to ours with those departments.

I don't know their exact numbers of firefighters.

I can come back with that data for you.

Because billings is what, a hundred and twenty-five thousand people.

I would have to check.

I'd like we need to know tax base.

Oh, absolutely.

I'm just curious how how they came up with these.

Okay.

117.

So Rapid City Fire is approximately 150 firefighters, whereas we're approximately 100.

Um they serve a population base of 79,000, we're approximately 65-ish.

Correct?

So they are a slightly larger department.

And not geographically close.

Billings is 117,000 people.

Um we were trying to stay away from large municipality departments such as or metropolitan departments.

So, I think that's a good idea.

I I guess at this point I would be interested in what proposal you guys would have for wages.

Well, until we can come up with a agree on a peer group, I don't know how we do that.

Okay.

I mean, we have to understand what the gap is to understand how to fix that, right?

Correct.

So at this point I don't have one.

Okay.

I've I've told you kind of our stance and why we pulled from the front range as well as Wyoming departments.

Okay.

So I honestly don't know how we move forward if we can't agree on that.

So I mean, I think our point is that to be fair, we need to compare departments that have similar uh tax bases and similar structures.

And in Wyoming, we have the the numbers that you agree to, and actually I kept Mills and um Jackson out also because I I think the high and the low would would skew things.

Uh Casper Sheridan, Rock Springs, Laramie, and Campbell County.

Although I almost want to throw Campbell County out too because they don't really they share two governing bodies.

They have one of the richest counties in the uh in the state and and a city that uh um that benefits from coal, oil, and gas.

So um from a funding perspective, I think that's a little tough, but I left them in uh because they are the high end to help with the average.

Um, to me, if we could agree that that's our peer group, then I think we could figure out a way to move forward.

And if you want to go talk, I I'd be fine.

I don't know if I can limit it just to Wyoming departments.

Um firefighters are looking for careers, they're not necessarily looking at what the municipalities tax base is.

They're looking at where can they get paid, compensated accordingly, what the benefits are, what the long-term benefits of that department are, and if it's a community they want to live.

And I think that's a fair statement.

You know, and I think if we were struggling to hire firefighters, we had problems with turnover, we had uh we had retention problems.

You know, I might be more open to you know having a broader view of that.

But um we just hired six firefighters, and uh we had a very a great group.

Um we found six great candidates that were happy to take the job.

Um in the last six years that I've been the mayor, we have not had the turnover or people leaving.

Um I think there's more to it than just that.

I mean, if you look at our six penny sales tax, our last one, the majority of the projects on there were fire fire related.

This one and um a very large percentage of uh this ballot is for firefighters.

Um we're spending a lot of our money to create an environment that keeps firefighters safe, that keeps them active.

Um I think that has a lot to do with uh the satisfaction in a job.

And I think when you look at the the complete package, um this is a great place to work and live.

And uh I I'd be curious to know how many applicants we're getting each year now when we test, which now we're testing, I believe, annually instead of biannually.

I know when I tested 23 years ago, there were 350 plus applicants at that time.

We're not getting near those numbers anymore.

We're typically ending up with lists of 20 to 30 candidates in that time frame, nowhere near the depth that we had.

And I I think that's a nationwide situation, right?

I mean, uh I don't think it's quite that necessarily that that shallow at at some other departments, but I don't have the data to to pull to tell you at this time.

So I don't know that it as many people are looking at lives in in community services, maybe they used to be, but uh um but I think the facts show that um we've been able to find firefighters that they uh when they come to this department, the the vast majority of them stay to retirement.

Um I think having to look outside of of this area I don't see the relevance of that.

I I would say that um I can speak from my academy.

There are four hired in my academy, and now there's only two of us.

So it's about 50 percent attrition rate of those that are in 20 some years.

Uh 22 years, yes.

Thank you for that.

Thank you.

Yeah.

One class, but I mean, honestly, um we just haven't had it just has not been a uh a struggle.

So can't buy it.

That that's your opinion, sir.

I understand, but I do know of classes where there are that are less than that, uh, have had less time here excuse me than I have, and there are none of them left, or um there's definitely been the majority of them or where some have left that have have not stayed here to retirement.

How many of those were uh injuries and other things that you know are unavoidable in a department you're gonna have some of that?

Um I don't know of any of the do you know of any of that medical doubt?

I can think of one or two.

We've had one recent medical out.

We'll have another one here in a couple weeks or months, or sounds like it.

Perhaps, yeah.

Yep, maybe.

So don't know what to do, guys.

Okay.

Maybe we need to call it a night and let you guys think about it some more.

As well.

I I'd be open to to what proposals you you would be interested in bringing forward, even if we can't agree on the the base of what demographics we're reviewing.

Um I wouldn't have to do that.

I think that's a waste of time.

And if we can't agree on what what what we're comparing to, then I don't know how we solve for the problem.

Okay.

And I think that that's the the challenge that we face tonight is we can't agree on what the problem is, and I don't know how you solve for problem you can't agree on.

Agreed.

Um I would be interested, like I said, for any proposals you have to bring forward, even if we don't agree on the get uh on the demographic that we're comparing to.

But uh we've explained where where the pool is that we're comparing to and what our reasoning is and come forward with a proposal for it.

So is there anything else we need to say tonight?

I I don't believe so.

Thank you all for your time.

Thank you.