Welcome back to this biweekly meeting of the budget and policy committee of Denver City Council.

Join us for the discussion as the budget and policy committee starts now.

Good afternoon, everyone.

I think number eight.

My name is President Amanda Sandoval.

I present District One.

Um we only have one agenda item uh this afternoon, so should be a great discussion.

But before we get started, let's go around and do some introductions and I'll start to my left.

Good afternoon, Florida Vivere's lucky district seven.

Good afternoon, Paul Care from South Member District Six.

Jamie Torres, West Emmer District Three.

Uh good afternoon, Darrell Watson, fine, district nine.

I'm in Sawyer, District Five.

Kevin Flynn, South West Denver's District Two.

Chris Irons, Demers.

Perfect time.

Great.

So we have Paul Best Value Contracting in front of us, and then I'll pass it over to our team.

And if you all just want to introduce yourselves, then the floor is yours.

Great.

Good afternoon.

Cammy Joeleam, the Director of Administration within General Services.

Nicole Sundras, Citywide Contracts Manager for General Services.

Michael Romero, Director of Purchasing General Services.

Dave Emps, Director of Contracts and Procurement for Dotti.

Nick Williams, Deputy Manager Dottie.

All right, the floor is yours.

Thank you.

I'll just kind of kick us off and appreciate your time today and the opportunity to come and talk about how our two agencies manage best value for contracting.

And I would say, as we were working through this presentation, we realized that we believe that this will be one presentation in several presentations to this body, just because there are so many individual agencies that are part of the best value contracting process.

And so we'd like to leave that just on the table of being able to revisit this in the future.

But I'll be taking lots of notes for your questions and capturing the discussion items so we can do a good job of creating that space and uh informing those next steps.

So I'll kick that over to uh to Mike.

Yeah.

So I'll go over today some specific revised municipal code sections that inform our solicitation processes.

Okay, so chapter 20, Article 4, division 2, definition section 2061.

Um we do have a definition for best value within our code.

Um basically gonna summarize the bold section, the overall combination of quality, price, and various elements of required services or performance measures that in total are optimal relative to the city's needs.

And we also have a definition definition here of request for proposal, which is different from the IFB, which basically an award is made in consideration of best value, not necessary.

Also, within our chapter 20 is uh a definition of contracts.

And basically, again, the IFP's lowest responsive bids, except for the case of request for proposals, which can be awarded to most qualified responsive and responsible proposers who also provide best value to the city as well.

So this is basically within our code.

And then one more definition, uh, chapter 28, which is in the women's small business enterprise and minority section.

Um very similar definition of request for proposal, where again an award is made a consideration of best value and not necessary lowest price.

So we do have solicitation methodologies where we're not just looking for the lowest price, we are actually looking for additional competencies and you know, experience background uh approach, a number of different factors.

Nicole will be going to have here in a moment.

Thank you, Michael.

Uh so again, as Michael stated, the RFP evaluation criteria is a little bit different than an informal bid.

Um, as informal bids, we're really looking at price specifically, but with the RFP evaluation criteria.

Uh the policy of general services expands to that the evaluation criteria, other can cost, other than cost, maybe characterize best value under the lifecycle costing.

As you'll see, there are quite a bit of different areas of where we believe that best value would come from.

A couple I'd just like to point out uh local servicing availability, cost of operation, uh financial condition of the vendor or proposer, as well as past uh performance by a vendor to the city.

On the next slide, uh, we have kind of outlined we've outlined a few solicitation and contract types for uh some more uh description and discussion as well.

You will see we have uh professional goods and services, and this really again is defined previously with the request per proposals.

Again, we're looking at price, but also we'll uh have that consideration for best value to the city.

Um, under on call uh professional agreements, we are also able to issue tax task orders.

Again, that is just a mini contract under an overarching uh executed on call agreement for professional services.

It's very specific to the service requests.

So we're just making sure that the scope is followed and what that small mini contract per se is covered under that task order.

And then we also have a mechanism which is a request for encumbrance.

Again, this could be in relation to we'll use translation services as an example.

We do have overarching translation interpretation service agreements, but the differences may be uh vary in need by agency, so it could be for a specific language or type of service request that the requester agency is looking for.

Um, also we do have our on call trade and repair maintenance service agreements.

Again, those are generally done uh under the IFB, so the invitation for bid, generally though we're looking there for a price specifically uh in those uh procurements and awards.

Um, under the on call trade agreements, we do also conduct mini bids, which is very different from our Dottie uh partners.

These are very uh specific services under again an all on call agreement.

It could be related to a specific electrical repair for a specific building at a specific time.

So again, those uh work orders, um, those mini bids are procured under this competitive process under that on call contractor group.

And with that, the mechanism to go ahead and issue those that work that is conducted under the mini-bid is the work order issuance.

Again, that's the PO that we issue based on behalf of the agency for that specific uh repair under the on call agreement.

So now I'm gonna go ahead and turn it over to David to talk about Dottie.

Good afternoon, council members.

I'm pleased to be able to talk to you today a little bit about best value procurement.

Um we have we have the same principles and charters as well to let to the lowest responsible bidder or develop an alternate system if it's in the best interest of the city.

That's known as through a competitive selection process.

On the next slide, we talk about uh the competitive selection process being alternative selection where the managing director can determine if it's in the best city's interest, if it's best served by an alternate procurement other than lowest price.

The uh deputy man, the executive director can do that.

I'd like to share with you guys a little bit about when I think of contracting, and this is all construction and professional services related to construction.

It's citywide except for the airport, as you guys all know.

We have a first step per charter to pre-qualify vendors.

I'm sure you guys all knew way back in the day in the date myself, but it used to be a date when you would blow the envelope, sit around with all the vendors, and open it up.

And that's how we would work it, but then you're concerned about qualifications.

So the city obviously way back when you institute national best practice known as contractor pre-qualification.

If you if you're gonna be on anything at a million dollars or more the city, whether it's lowest price or best value, it requires contract or pre-qualification for a million dollars.

We know, for example, we asked for their experience modification rate EMR.

Uh you all might know 1.5 means that corporation or that firm is paying one and a half times the premium of workers' compensation insurance.

That's a flag for us.

It can be safety related.

It's bonding, it's financials.

So we're confident that whenever we and we do this, we run the pre-call board uh with the support of Dennis well.

It's one group that does that within the DONA framework.

And so that's my precursor to best value, okay?

That there's a lot of criteria before you get invited to the hands that you have to go through.

On the next slide, I just want to share with you some thoughts I've had over how to best articulate best value procurement and optimizing outcomes at the first bullet, of course.

Lowest price is always a consideration.

We can take that lowest price, and we can put out an RFP, create a separate packet or envelope.

So tell me all about your qualifications.

Everything you want to.

So give me another one for price.

Price is going to go over these folks, and they're gonna look at cost later after this group looks at quality of the workmanship and the proposals, what they're offering.

And then you can judge on lots of things, qualifications and performance, improved outcomes.

Um it can be tailored to project specific work, which is quite interesting.

So it's not like an asset framework for bridge construction versus roadway repair.

It can be a different thing.

Now if you go one step further in the special services category, I'd like to have you think of just a couple things that I've worked on in my career, and that's looking for the value differentiators.

To give a proposal, I'll give you a proposal.

I'll give you one page, three pages, five pages.

Tell me this.

What's significant risk or consideration?

What didn't we ask that we should have asked?

I'd really like to know that from him.

What are your core three to five differentiators?

One page.

So I have to review every proposal if I don't want to.

What's the one thing you want me to take away?

And lastly, how you deliver these differentiators to see to achieve success on very complex projects.

And the reason that's all important, we can go ahead and we can say this has a weight of 20% in the overall mix, right?

And so everything you do in best value has an evaluation criteria established and the score or weighting of each.

And then lastly, just the types, it really applies almost everywhere, everywhere in our world.

Sometimes we might not have a definitive price at the start, but certainly implemented best buying uh all the way throughout the process.

That's what I've got on Dottie uh best value.

So very short and sweet presentation.

Thank you so much.

I have council member Sawyer in the queue.

I'll be good at New York.

Hi.

Uh Councilwoman Saiyer.

Thanks, Madam President.

Thanks, you guys.

Um, this is really, I think, interesting and helpful.

Um for many, many years, uh, I have worked with a lot of different stakeholders throughout the community, and all of them say we want best value contracting in the city of Denver.

And my answer to them is always the framework is there, you have to go to the mayor's office and get them to implement it differently.

So which is a hundred percent true based on what you have just showed us, right?

So for the things that we as council members hear, right?

We want best value contracting, we want um the the I think it is um more of a specific conversation around the support of the different kinds of workers that might be on a project, right?

That's not something that you listed um up on here at all.

So I'm curious whether um you all have considered altering the framework that we have used over the course of many, many years to um take into account some of the new and and different um desires and needs of the community that I don't see in this list.

And if so, what are they?

What are you doing to change them?

I appreciate that.

Can I take that one?

Sir, um make sure I understand the one about the workers comment.

Just can you describe that a little bit more to me?

Yeah, I think that there is so um so we want to make sure that our workers, whoever is working on a city-related project rate beyond prevailing wage, beyond minimum wage, um, that they are safe, that they are being paid appropriately, that they are you know qualified.

Um, if there is if there are two projects, one of them is using um, you know, just whatever workers they can hire, and the other one, it might be a little bit of a higher price, but is using um, you know, high quality, well-trained workforce.

Um right now, we go with the lower price, and that is um, I think the challenge that has been identified for us as council members.

You guys do you guys get these calls too, right?

Um because it seems like, although the framework exists to be able to do to pick the higher cost with better trained um workers, we we keep going with the the lower cost one anyway.

And so it seems like the the shift that needs to happen is operational, and that's why I'm asking what like you're doing about that.

I appreciate that.

I from my perspective in DOTI contracting, I don't know that we don't consider all those angles or have they have you for best value contracting.

I don't know of a case where it purely sold the more definitive the project is, the more definitive you can say lowest price, right?

You can be a piece of furniture or chair.

So I like to ask my GS folks if that's in your realm of best value procurement.

Yeah, I mean I'll push back because I think there's there's some like we've seen trash contracts that have come through that have right been in exorbitant, but the lowest price or the only bidder or those kinds of things.

So I I don't think that DOT is exempt from this.

Okay.

I don't know if those fall in dotted or not.

Um I uh on behalf of General Services, I can uh mention that we actually are very thoughtful when we're awarding agreements based on what the service type is.

Uh for example, uh language interpretation and translation services.

We do not just provide or execute one agreement.

Uh we currently have two agreements in place right now, and they do have different pricing.

And the reason for that is first that there is capacity for anyone at any time at any agency be able to utilize that service, but also there may be one vendor that is able to uh report at 24-7 notice for maybe um a call from DPD in comparison to the second vendor, may not.

So uh especially and also in our trade service agreements as well.

We do not just uh only award one contract for HVAC.

There's just no way possible, right?

Considering all the buildings that the city maintains.

Um so we are very mindful of making sure that we have a large enough pool for vendors, but we are very we we see the pricing in the back end of what the lowest price is versus what the high price is.

So there is a variation.

Um, so that is considered as well.

Um but there are certain contracts you mentioned, the trash collection service agreement.

Um that is one contract that we've elected to just award one vendor based on the service need.

So there's a thoughtful process on where we are uh awarding multiple agreements for the same service and where we may well um do one in that particular instance.

So ahead of shot.

Yeah, again, I'm a construction guy, so I don't really know, but I have I have phone friends sitting over here, Rob Wheeler, and I don't know what's possible with X08, but it's quite common that organizations will develop best value procurement definitions and guidelines and considerations.

And it's always an evolving document.

And I don't know, I'm not an expert if it has to reside within charter or wherever that rests, but what you brought is is spot on.

Because years ago, nobody thought of sourcing equitably or sourcing environmentally, right?

Your textiles, where do you mean?

I mean, what so that might be a component we're interested in or something, but uh it can be all kinds of things.

I'm completely open to whether that works because I don't have a budget.

I want to work with my customers, my PMs and engineer leaders in the city, like you're all, and develop whatever criteria you want to establish, however you want to weigh them.

So nothing's off the table in my mind.

Mechanically, I I'm not I I know I can't touch charter.

Yeah, no, no, I really appreciate that.

I did it for Littleton in 2022.

November 8th of 2022 Littleton, we passed best value procurement, first change in 63 years.

Yeah, so I want to ask so I'm really glad you brought up X08 because I think that that is the challenge here, right?

There is an executive order that governs procurement um as city council members.

We can't rescind an executive order.

Um so how like where is the interplay between EO8 and what you're looking at here?

Because EO8 is not listed anywhere on in your slide deck, and yet it's do I need to actually governing document, right?

Yeah, just come up to the microphone and introduce yourself.

See what you get for saying Robert Wheeler from the city attorney's office.

We're working on it.

You have to speak into the mic so people can Robert Wheeler from the city attorney's office.

We're currently working on a revision to X08, and one of the changes that I think you can expect to see in that is an explicitly mentioning and encouraging best value contracting.

Um so pulling that in, acknowledging there's something not clearly addressed.

Um so that draft is not ready to be circulated, but it's getting close.

So I think in the very near future there'll be something that can be shared.

Okay, yeah, that's fantastic to hear that.

Um I've been here six years, and it's the first time I've heard that.

Yeah.

So that's really exciting.

Something we're working on.

Yeah, that's really great.

Um it was driven in part by these conversations that are going on.

Yeah, and I I think that's right.

So I guess in terms of whatever potential changes might be coming to X08 that kind of governs this, and based on all the stuff managed in the charter and DRMC, which clearly indicates we can do best value contracting without having to do a charter change, um, like Littleton did.

What is the long-term vision then for um altering or changing up what we're looking at here in order to sort of better address some of the things that we hear and have been talking about for a long time.

Again, I don't want to speak for you guys.

I'll let you guys go first if you want to touch that on general services because it's so different than construction contracting, but I got an answer for you.

Go ahead.

Um the way I see this evolving is having a best value procurement method, like evaluation where all those factors are considered.

Again, it can be uh it can be looked at from the wages our employees are paid to David Speaking Act or the prevailing wage laws that we have, but it can be more.

It can be about training for development.

It can be about uh diversity and equity goals and what percentages it can be.

My dream would be to turn that evaluation criteria.

I'm gonna evaluate you constructing this building, and I'm gonna pick a vendor.

That actually becomes the contractor performance review.

So I see I see an opportunity for contractor performance reviews.

I know that's probably gonna take me another 20 years to do, but um, I like working.

But that's that's the alignment.

Okay.

Because then you say, why do you guys let me?

You never did anything with that way.

Why'd you give the bill another time?

It was only one rated performer higher, and we published that dashboard.

Got it.

Okay, that's great.

And what about for services contracts?

For uh general services, we're kind of living in a really what I think is an exciting time right now because um we actually have had leadership over these last couple of years that they're really encouraging us to think about contract consolidation.

So you may have heard about some of this.

Um, and that started when we uh pulled some uh procurement folks over to our contracting team to make that a more seamless process so we could contract services a lot quicker and a little more efficiently.

So we're really looking at how do we build this model of general services kind of being one of the major players we consider Dottie and Den, the other major players, but how do we create general services is kind of being this contracting hub, right?

And this this kind of builds into your point of kind of creating that larger vision of then how do we implement some of those things that we want to see a little more standardized across the city?

Um so another exciting thing that uh we've done here recently, Nicole was uh a big part of this is to create uh a resource hub for contracting.

So this is kind of all those best practices of contracting.

The X08 um revisions will feed nicely into that, but it's really trying to get folks on the same page about what we're doing from a contracting services perspective.

Um so we're slowly starting to get there.

Um, as you all know, uh Adrena Gibson is uh gonna be before you at some point to be appointed to our ED, uh our executive director position.

And so we're excited that she's kind of taking the reins and leading us through some of what uh Al Gardner had us working on previously.

And then we also had a very um new development, and uh maybe ask Nicole to speak on this if she wants to, but um the division of small business uh opportunity, their compliance team, which is roughly 15, 16 folks, I believe, uh they're transitioning over to general services as well.

So we're really looking for a lot of opportunities right now to um really make the model that we're building very efficient, um, but also to standardize some of those things.

Okay, so hopefully that that helps.

We're trying to put all the pieces together, but I I know it's gonna take us a little bit of time to get there.

Yeah, no, I really appreciate it.

And I will just, if I could just have one more.

Um, I will just say I I have been a huge proponent of us creating a procurement agency as opposed to just every single agency doing different procurements for us on our end where we see it as you guys know because I complain to you about this all the time, and is the um it are the on-call contracts, right?

Where we approve them and then we never know how much is spent, why it is spent, where it is spent, with whom it is sent, et cetera.

Um, so I do I think that this is the start of a really great shift that is only gonna benefit our city and allow us to streamline um things moving forward.

Um I just want to make sure that we're having the conversations about if we're going to move in this direction, then what are the new criteria that we are gonna put in place and what are the percentages of value that are going to be assigned to those when we get responses to an RFP so that we can ensure that we're contracting, not just for the lowest dollar amount, although sometimes we will, right?

But for all of these other things that we have said as a city are our priorities.

Well, really great question.

Um, or a comment.

It makes me think of we're trying to be more transparent too.

So you can go do business with Dottie right now, and you can see an on-call holder as a five million dollar contract, 25% MWB diversity goal.

So when we meet with bagels and business with small businesses or diversified businesses, call those contractors.

Here's the opportunity.

We want to do more of that.

Yeah, so there's more presence out there.

So that's one thing we've done tying to what you guys said about diversity.

Really appreciate that.

Thank you.

Thanks.

And thank you.

Councilmember Abbey just thought of.

Thank you so much.

Thank you all for that.

And thank you, Councilwoman, for your uh thoughts as well.

Um one of the questions I have, um, where did the union concerns from page 19 come from the Dominic maybe knows?

I got it from Dominic.

Good afternoon, uh Dominic Moreno, mayor's office.

Uh thank you, Councilman, for the question.

Uh, those are uh all concerns that were brought forward by some of our labor partners of things that they don't think are completely incorporated within our uh process for contracting and some of the issues that they uh uh would like to work with us to address.

Great.

And um we've been talking, thank you so much, Dominic.

And so I just want to compare our list to make sure that we're all talking to the same people, or if there's people left out what that looks like.

Um and then my other question, you mentioned the pre-call process, and I know we're looking at maybe getting rid of that right now.

Are you part of that conversation?

Or I that's what I was told by someone in the mayor's.

Well, just we did it April 23rd of this year.

April 23rd, okay.

Okay.

I think one of my concerns with that process is just maybe you haven't done a million dollars, but you've done 999,000, and so it's really could be pushing out, and it could be really cumbersome for some small businesses.

I think the same thing about the EMR rate, which you mentioned, when it comes to those, if you're a smaller business and you have one big accident, that isn't really your fault, it could really affect your EMR.

And I know like the airport does owner uh certified insurance programs does the city do OSIP programs as well.

Well, we have other programs I tell you, I can tell you about time to that.

Um, so I wouldn't want those things to necessarily totally disqualify, which goes back to what councilman's way you're saying is like we need to really look at what they are and again a workforce and what I think about a lot is how are we making sure that we are reinvesting in our local small businesses?

I know, and I know we have like a disvocole, but I what I would like to see is that maybe the goal is 10% or 20%, but maybe a contractor comes through and everyone's women-owned, and they're like, well, we can do 100%.

So, how do we factor that in um instead of just making sure that they hit this really low minimum goal, which is in my opinion, really low many times?

Um what current constraints do you experience when you're looking at a contract?

Like, is there some is there a particular, for example, you have all of these contractors, and this one appears to be the best.

However, we know that they have um wage theft happening, or they have not paid their subcontractors habitually.

Is that something that we can take into account as it is right now?

Absolutely.

And do we?

We do in DOTI for sure.

You do how do you find out if like subs aren't getting paid?

Through we hear about it, our contract administrators will hear about it, we'll get get complaints about the timing that it's taking to getting paid.

Um in the pre-call process you mentioned, we've gone from 34 to 17 pages.

It's now every two years rather than annual.

Small businesses don't have to get a certified audited financial statement until they're at the 15 million dollar level.

So no more of that expense up front.

Uh very reasonable to get a million dollars in today's world, so I don't see that as being a hurdle.

Your question about, I loved it, about um the small business that's been for performing really well.

When do they get to step up and be the prime?

I think that ties back to performance.

And again, if somebody built something and they've got score of A as a subcontract on these various projects, they're not certified at a higher level.

It's not it's not the size of the business that we certify, it's their performance and capability.

So if somebody we had a performance system right now and we had a small business that had A's across the board on a certain topic, by all means you'd stretch them to the next financial level.

And they'd be prime.

One thing that I didn't see in this presentation was is it a certain dollar amount that these kick in, or is this just practice for even a one-dollar contract and not?

I'm sorry, construction is for one million dollars or more.

Okay.

And ours is recently approved by CDOT, FHWA, FAA has a requirement as well.

And that's for pre-crawl, but all of the best.

And then as far as general services, one of my questions.

That was for pre-qualification only, sorry.

Oh, okay.

Um, one of my questions for general services, something that I've been thinking about a lot is how does this because my understanding is you all do procurement for host and oversee their contracting.

Is that correct?

No.

Okay.

So will host be a separate presentation later, then is someone from host here that could speak to that.

Uh good afternoon, Jeff Kazitzki with deputy director at host.

Um we currently incorporate uh best value contracting principles into the work that we do.

We'd be happy to give a separate presentation on our procurement, and I believe we're in communication with your office to try to set up uh a meeting uh right now.

Our our focus is actually on um performance-based moving to a performance-based contracting model, um, which is a little bit different from uh what we're talking about today, but we'll also you know, I think have an impact on the quality of the contracts and being able to better track outcomes.

Great, awesome.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Um great, that's all I have for now.

Thank you.

Councilmember Hang.

Thank you, Madam President.

Thank you for the presentation.

Um and uh and for your work to make sure that we are giving the best contracts that will um affect the uh you know the the finished product in the way that makes the most sense uh for Denver.

Um I I was just I want to start high level just for a moment.

Is it um is it reasonable to say that uh just because I I hear you're already implementing all or most of the um the things that we had talked about um in the last week week before?

Um is it reasonable to say that uh at least the people here at the table believe that we should consider some of um uh the values that are important to the city before considering um how much um a vendor might want to charge uh to achieve that.

Is that a is that is that a fair statement?

Again, from my perspective, yes.

Yeah, it's up to the entity, I think, to decide what they believe in.

You know, do you will you will you mine battery lithium or whatever it is using childhood labor if it's called low price or not?

Yeah.

So these are that's a very strategic high-level decision that was then funneled down to what we do.

Yeah, and that's not meant to be a true question.

I've just it's a question based lines, you know.

So um I enjoy not writing the rules.

I like you guys writing those.

Yeah, well, uh thanks.

Um is that a fair statement from GS's perspective?

General service.

So when we do uh conduct IFBs, right?

Invitation for bids, there are times that um price is something that we are considering.

However, is the example with the on-call trades, we do multiple and also other solicitations where we would award multiple vendors.

So sometimes price isn't the only consideration.

It's the uh being able to provide the service um for multiple agencies at any given time.

So that's that's kind of where we're standing at this point.

Okay.

Um we uh we I don't think we've necessarily discussed the different kinds of contracts here.

I think we've alerted alert, alluded to it.

Um, and so one might be construction contract, the uh water bottle that you're building and your example.

Um there are also goods contracts, there's services contracts.

So are those the three big buckets of um uh contracts that we have in the city?

Professional services also and and council councilman Hines, you bring up a fantastic point.

I question, I just want to I almost want to suggest this.

When you think of goods in today's world and best value procurement, there's a lot less applicability if I'm buying a piece of furniture or I need an iPhone, right?

So I would and I'm not that's not my cup of tea, that's my partner's cup of tea.

But I think that's one that you know talks back to the sustainability ethically sourced, right?

Tariffs may come into play, but that's one that I think the opportunity is outside of goods, if you really I mean true best.

That's just a point or observation.

Did you yeah, I I agree with David.

I mean for the most parts procurements is the core is like what we're trying to buy is so that agency can meet their operational needs.

So if we're being a vehicle, office supplies, computers, what have you, right?

I mean, there have been times where we will look at factors and maybe actually we have done RFPs for goods where we look at uh total cost of ownership factors where it's like we're gonna go buy a truck, we're not necessarily going to buy the the lowest price truck, we're actually gonna look at like, well, we're gonna look at the cost of that truck, we're gonna also look at parts and service of other considerations that we need to factor in for the total life cycle of that truck and all the support so it can last 10 years.

And what is that cost point look like going out five, 10 years?

So there have been times, even in the goods space, we'll look at factors like that on total cost of ownership.

Well, and I just um left uh uh precedent this morning where we unveiled uh the um the city's first electric uh trash trap.

So speaking of you know, vehicles and trucks, um, that might be a value statement that we'd make is that we want it to be electric as opposed to uh fossil fuels.

Um obviously there'd be a cost difference there, but um so is it uh perhaps again I'm looking for broad broad you know statements.

Perhaps it makes sense for us to think about um goods contracts maybe in a little different way than um than construction and uh and services.

Is that yeah?

And Councilman Hines I might just focus on raw uh Mike's really good point.

I think of goods as disposable, usable goods versus capital assets like it like a truck.

So we're I'm talking about the more of the core things we use every day.

Yeah, and some and you mentioned uh you know, a big good point, you'd rather us create the um well the the words on paper.

Um obviously that would be in collaboration, that's the reason why we of course Councilman Hines by your consideration and and what you might suggest.

Um so you guys have a great robust framework.

It's the best value procurement model you're really happy with.

It's an XO8.

We can do it.

What happens if I get a customer that's I think of general services in us that it's all about price, I would have this budget.

So what time what at what point does price come into your do we do we always go with this regardless of price?

Do we do we select vendors that are within a certain range of togetherness on bid?

So it's reasonable.

That's just an open-ended question.

I don't have the answer to you.

Yeah, absolutely.

Um the upfront price and the total cost of ownership aren't always the same, right?

Absolutely.

Um Melissa Mata, who I don't think is here right now, she did is she um she did uh a white paper for us and um and found another entity that their um change orders once they implemented best value contracting went from about 20% of the cost to less than one percent of the cost.

And so speaking of total cost of ownership, um, there's a pretty dramatic difference in um Adams County and this entity uh name I don't uh I forget exactly which entity that uh Miss Mata found, but um uh they both report that the um the cost uh for their contracts went down in the end as well uh once they implemented best value contracts.

Yes.

So um uh so I hear that there are opportunities to use best value contracting.

Um you were you know you went asked to what if um I also asked a what if, and that is um you know, we heard from posts that maybe they're moving to a slightly different model, but um we have it in uh we have an administration that has said that this was a first hundred day priority best value contracting, and um there might be a future administration that may not want that, or I've the the nature of the question I thought you were about to ask was what if we have a vendor that says we don't care, we're we're gonna bid on price, and that's just the way it is, and we are the only vendor in the space that can do it because it's uh a contract for the airport, and um there are only a few vendors that can tackle something of that size.

What do we do then?

Um and so those two questions about what if we have a new administration that isn't as excited about best value contracting, best value contracting, or we have a vendor that um for whatever reason um uh urges or shoehorns the city into a price bid as opposed to a value bid.

Um the reason why I bring up you said you wish we would do it, uh you know, do the the paperwork.

I mean, no, we could as a as a legislative body say this is the minimum floor that we want.

So if there is a vendor that says no, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna ask the mayor to do something else.

Uh the mayor or you or you know, general services could say this is the law.

This these are the standards, the the laws are based on the values that we believe um uh are our Denver values, and you know, we represent the people of Denver, and we believe that these are the values of the people of Denver want.

So that's kind of my thought process behind um being a co-sponsor of the best value contract.

Thank you for sharing that.

I think of the best way of contracting model for construction, is we'd still by law have to comply with our search pre-qualification process.

If it's outside of precurement, I mean outside of construction, excuse me.

And there's one vendor that really only has that niche.

Um you can still put out the bid, you might only get one response bid if it's general services.

And part two is these guys will work, I'm sure on a sole source justification.

Sometimes that's warranted for hazardous work, whatever it might be.

Yeah, and sorry to do that.

Yeah, no, he's correct.

I think there are times where you have sole source contracting.

So as I mentioned in our um in our briefing, um, I had some heartburn about the on-call contracts because they tend to um city council, the legislative branch has three major purviews, legislation, uh, land use and the budget, and um these uncall contracts uh kind of uh limit the by the uh a budget oversight that the legislative branch has.

So I recognize that you're talking about on-call contracts.

Um they frustrate me.

So I think if I could just put in a plug, councilman.

So we will be, I think we're starting briefings this month for a new round of on-call contracts.

I think councilman Sawyer, you're first up on there.

I've heard we only had so far.

Uh and I would strongly encourage you to to please take us up on that offer.

I think really being able to explain how we use on-call contracts, why we use on-call contracts, some of the transparency that we're implementing and are looking to implement on that.

I think it's uh uh uh uh a good opportunity.

So I it is a very challenging subject, and yeah, we want to spend as much time with you all on it uh as we can.

So just put that plug in there.

And I do appreciate that, Nick, for Councilman Hines.

Um the federal government calls it something different, definite delivery and definite quantity.

About 70% of their construction is all constructed that way.

It's called on contracts, Midwest mostly, and bench contracts on the West Coast.

So I've I have the slides ready to go whenever you guys were ready to talk about it.

There's nothing we're doing uniquely.

I do just like to share the reasons why and the overarching theme so you can decide how it might fit into the budget questions and all that stuff.

Yeah, and uh Nick, uh sorry, Mr.

Williams, as you were talking about uh um you know transparency, that is part burn with best value.

All right, sorry, not with uh the on-call contracts is you know, November 2021, uh the people said yes, the two C the transportation funding, which included seven million dollars for um the first fully realized uh segment of the 5280 trail, nothing happened for 18 months, and then suddenly $7 million were awarded to an on-call vendor for expediency.

Like we could have in 18 months, we could have done a uh a proper RFP as opposed to awarding um you know the entire bid to an on-called contractor.

Thank you.

Thank you, Madam President.

Thank you.

Thanks that we have Councilman Gonzalez Gutiérrez followed by Councilman Haredy.

Thank you, um, Madam President.

Um I don't know if this is a Dominic question, so I'm sorry to drag you back up here.

But I was just wondering, because I thank you, Councilman Alvides, for for bringing up the slide 20, because I had questions along that same line.

Um, just wanting to better understand what this slide is telling us, and if we can actually have it pulled up, that would be great, just so that this one correct.

Yes.

Okay.

Yes, I just want to better understand.

So you have union concern, city assessment.

I just want to like can you walk through what this all means?

I can, and that's me too.

Okay.

So yeah, Dominic gave us a letter and it talked uh union concerns.

This document did not have a word best or value in it.

So it's somewhat of a different topic.

So they came up with a concern that um the concern is not using low bidder procurement.

In other words, they're saying why can't we use best value?

And uh that's also a concern to us, but we we do this now on contracting.

And I believe this applied mainly to contracting and construction rather than a general services type of license.

Uh the union note, and this is actually bulletizing in the union letter, it might have been one or two pages.

They had a bullet on bidder qualifications not used.

Um totally incorrect.

We we quote life of the pre-qual policy, it's a law.

We have to do prevailing wage not enforced, absolutely enforced.

We have our own ordinance and we have other federal acts.

We get federal money, we have to be.

Uh client-specific labor recommendations.

We comply with OSHA standards, we get their scores.

We ask for any willful or serious violations to report that the last three years.

And councilwoman, I forgot your last name.

I apologize.

EMOR, EMR, we score over the four years, the current year plus the last three.

So if one small business had one hiccup, it wouldn't be wedded hour.

You'd have to have a demonstrative nearly four-year 1.5 to be in trouble.

I think I've seen instances where when it does go over one, they've struggled more.

But yeah, we can have a longer conversation about that, yeah.

Yeah, I like to think well, I like I understand what your point, right?

One can unfairly heard of small business there.

Climate standards is kind of interesting.

They had they wanted they asked for shade and hydration stations.

Now we we don't have that formally in our policy, that specific thing, but we ought to have with federal dollars, state dollars, our own environmental and uh safety measures, we care about our workforce and it's established.

It has to be again to get federal funding.

Um past SAP your workers violations.

The unions concerned about that, right?

Because they're big on safety and they're good.

Less injuries.

Um, but but again, I just said that we we definitely have that as well.

And they say label labor harmony, not required.

Councilman Hines kind of what we talked about just a few weeks ago.

You I'm thinking that union memor saying making are we saying are they saying making union workforce a requirement?

In whatever thing you might come up with.

And we made the intentional decision, I think, as a city way before I start that the answer was no.

Because again, we want to have 7% participation of employees in construction market in Denver that union that represent your work.

So but is labor harmony, does that mean it is required, or is it a it's more of a it's just an option, I guess.

Dominic, I haven't talked to uh the union folks that you spoke with, maybe, but on my end, I believe it's their request to use utilize more union workforce, have our primes and our subcontractors engage with local unions.

So for people can't see or anything or hear, um Dominic Moreno just gave a thumbs up.

Uh I'll narrate that.

Dominic Moreno, mayor's office.

Uh thank you, Councilwoman Gonzalez Cutares for the question.

Uh so all of the what you just saw on that slide was derived from um a uh memo that was shared by SCIU, uh, which what they are de uh dubbing high road contracting, not best value, but high road.

Um, and happy to share that uh with you if that's helpful.

Um I'll send it to the entire um city council.

Uh but that's essentially where that was derived from, and that's correct on labor harmony.

Um there are some things that we have done in order to just make sure there is collaboration with labor.

Uh you you'll see that obviously in the um national western um some of the project agreement uh language does require me, uh does require that there is collaboration with labor, but not specifically utilizing a labor workforce.

Um one other quick question.

So you mentioned that this was based out of a letter from SCIU.

Has there been any other conversations with any other any of the labor unions that you know do business with the city or have are there they have um members who are you know are part of the workforce that are part of you know with the contractors and everything like that.

Yeah, thank you for the question.

There's been discussions with um really the entire labor community, so the building trades, um IBW is here in the audience as well.

We've had discussions with them.

Um part of what will be challenging to get this policy right is as what has been stated, there are contracts that run the gamut of different services that are provided.

It's professional services, it's goods, um, it's construction, and so getting the policy exactly right will be challenging, and there are different labor interests tied to each of those things as well.

So um this is really to provide background and then to you know work very closely with Councilman Hines and Councilmember Albidrez to try to get that policy correct.

So because it says this is specific to construction contracts, but we know like our security, for instance, they um are unionized, and um and just wondering if there's going to be more conversation on those other types of contracts.

Uh thank you for the question.

Yes.

Um and I'm in regular touch with SCIU about uh contracts as it relates to janitorial services to security services, those are both part of this as well.

And Dominic, and great question, thank you.

I got that letter and I provided kind of a detailed response we can include, but my focus was on addressing problem construction, not what you just thought of.

Okay, great.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Madam President.

Thank you.

Council Carrie.

Yeah, I I really appreciate this.

First of all, thank you to the council members for bringing everybody here and the agencies for coming all together.

I'm sure you did not fail to notice that you had all kinds of council members asking you about this from all kinds of different angles.

That was probably a little, I mean, we had some meetings where I was like, Oh, I don't even know how to ask about this because it's so new to me.

Um, but you've brought me a very long way from there.

Um and I think my global comment about this is just that um it it's absolutely true that what we have right now is not simply price-based contracting.

Like that, that's really really clear.

We take it into account a lot of very important city values, um, and those happen at sort of different layers of these policies that you've shown us.

Um, it has been a learning curve, at least for me, to even just sort of like get my arms around what different agencies already are accounting for and what stage of the process they're doing it at.

Um and so maybe using the term best value isn't that meaningful.

You know, I hear labor has another term, you know.

Um so there are a million ways to do this.

Um and so my personal ask would just be like when you're telling us about um some of the really complex ways that you go about kind of scoring and waiting um contractors, the more of that that we can see, the more helpful that is um so that we know what we're waiting into, because I think there will there will be continued interest, um, just speaking for myself, but I think for others too.

And and not to step on those who are already leading on this, but you know, we can all read lots of documents, I assume.

So that's really it.

I'm not a question.

I just wanted to say thank you.

This is very helpful.

We need to follow up on that.

And like I said, we do a lot of stuff that we should be really proud of in terms of how we evaluate people.

So it's nice to hear that.

Thank you.

And thanks to the sponsors, and thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you.

I mean, just tag on that comment.

The best models for best value procurement means it's post-it.

If you're interested about doing work with City and County Demor, it's just construction related.

Here's our typical matrix of what you'd be evaluated on.

You propose why start thinking your polical that way.

We're not gonna change it.

It's pretty if it's a bridge replacement, whatever it might be.

Might be different for surfacing a runway.

Of course, in FAS, that might be different.

There's no reason why we don't publish those main categories you described.

So yeah, thank you for that.

Okay, thanks, Councilmember Lewis.

You just have one quick question for Dominic.

If we could get a copy of that letter from the unions.

Thank you.

Is that it?

Yep.

All right.

See you know there are questions in the queue.

Thank you all for a great conversation.

For next steps, would are the sponsors just gonna keep the city council members uh informed?

Or well, we would love to hear anything that you all want to see in these policies for one, and then I think we have some more presentations still coming as well.

Okay.

Um, and then we'll start circulating a draft once we feel like we know what everyone's wanting to see out of this.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you all.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for coming to my birthday party.

I appreciate it.