Good evening.

Welcome to our Draper City Planning Commission meeting.

Today's date is December 11th, 2025.

So we're dwindling down to the end of the year here.

So thanks for joining us.

Thank you to the staff for getting everything ready, putting notices up, getting the reports to us, and uh working with the applicants to get them this far.

We uh thank the commissioners up here for volunteering their time.

And then uh we also thank the applicants and then all our good neighbors for attending tonight.

So let's go ahead and get things started.

Uh first on our agenda item.

I don't see any changes to the agenda as it's been posted uh on our print out online, correct?

Good.

All right, so we'll just go as proposed.

So uh first one's an action item.

It's simply just to approve the planning commission meeting minutes for November 13th, 2025.

Will someone give us a uh motion and a second for the approval of those minutes.

I'll make a motion.

Go ahead, Gary.

We approve the planning commission meeting minutes for the November 13th, 2025 meeting.

I'll second that.

And Laura will second that.

So thank you, Gary and Laura.

Let's go ahead and put that one to a vote.

This is for approval November 13th, 2025 minutes.

Kendra, how do you oh excuse me?

Let's start with Gary.

Yes.

Laura.

Yes.

Kendra?

Yes.

And Christine.

Yes.

Awesome.

All right, those are approved.

So now we'll move on to our public hearings.

We'll have a couple of these tonight.

I'll explain how that works when we open it up for public comment.

So public hearing tonight.

The first one is the Butler Zoning Map Amendment request.

It's on the request of Lean Lenae Butler, a zoning map amendment from RA1 to R3.

It's on approximately 1.04 acres and located at approximately 283 East Tanager Lane.

This is known as application 2025-0241-MA.

And Paul Guilman's our staff contact.

So Paul, go ahead.

Good to see you again.

So we'll go ahead and start with our vicinity maps.

My apologies.

We're just west of third east and north of Brown's Pond.

We go in for a closer view.

So you can see we've got Taninger Lane and Third East there, and you can see Brown's Pond in the southwest corner.

So we are that corner lot there.

Looking at the land use, so I would like to note that the current zoning designation of RA1 is not supported by the current land use, which is residential medium density.

The proposed uh zoning of R3 is uh is conforming with the the residential medium density.

Our zoning map, we have a pocket of RA1 there.

To the east, we have R3 and to the south and slightly to the west, we do have RA2.

Um overview of the request.

So the main change uh in terms of square footage requirement for the lot size.

It goes from 40,000 square feet to 13,000 square feet.

Um so that is the minimum lot size in R3.

Um we have a couple site photos.

Uh one from where you see the the wall is from third east, and then where you see the picket fence is from Tanager Way.

If you have any questions or comments, I can answer them.

We also have Linnea Butler, the applicant, and her father, the property owner Carrie Butler, here to answer questions as well.

Great, thank you for that.

Any questions for staff before we invite the applicant up?

Okay, is the applicant here?

Hi, come on up.

You guys can both come up if you like, either way.

You're the applicant, you've got free reign.

So is there anything else you'd like to add to that presentation or or anything that they missed?

Yeah, unless you have questions.

What questions do we have?

You're getting off easy, so perfect.

That's it.

We'll invite you back up after the public hearing if we need to, okay?

All right, thank you.

All right, this is a public hearing.

So when we do this this evening, uh we'll open up uh public comment uh up to three minutes per person.

You don't have to fill the whole time.

We just ask that you don't go over the red timer over there that uh starts out with three minutes.

So with that being said, and those rules set out.

Uh who would like to address this agenda item tonight?

Come on down and then uh just some decorum on this if you'll just state your name.

That's all we need for the recording, so we know who's talking.

Jacob Goodrich, I'll say a little bit more than my name.

I'm the immediate to the West neighbor of the butlers.

Just want to say I fully support this.

Love the idea, and that's it.

Perfect, thank you.

Anyone else?

Come on down.

Sorry for the long walk from the back.

My name is Kathleen Keller.

I'm a neighbor as well.

Um, I didn't get here at the very beginning.

I the question I had is where is the access going to be?

So we'll just or have they determined that.

We'll just take your uh comments and then we'll make some notes.

It won't be open back and forth, but I'll take a note of that and hopefully answer that.

Is it gonna be off of 300 east or tanager?

Is that it?

That's my question.

Okay, thank you.

All right, anyone else?

All right, we'll go ahead and close the public hearing portion.

All right, the applicant can come on back up.

And sorry, this is kind of awkward dialogue, right?

But there's a question for you.

Maybe you can answer that.

Just on the the access.

So presently we don't know.

We've looked at both options.

There's access off 300 east, and there's also access up off of Tanager Lane.

Sure.

We haven't quite crossed that bridge.

And so this is just a the the change we're asking for tonight doesn't require that.

It's a little premature, but that answers that, but we don't know yet.

Yeah.

All right.

Any other questions?

Okay.

All right.

Thanks again.

We'll put this up to a vote and some discussion here.

Commissioners, what are your thoughts?

Seems pretty straightforward.

It does.

What would you like to do?

I can make a motion if there's no further discussion.

Yeah, please do.

I move that we forward a positive recommendation to the city council for the zoning map amendment as requested by Linnea Butler.

Application 2025-0241-MA based on the findings and criteria for approval listed in the staff report dated December 1st, 2025, and that would include the five findings for approval listed in the report.

Thanks, Kendra.

Who will second that motion?

I'll second it.

Thanks, Gary.

This is for a positive recommendation to be sent to the city council.

So Kendra, how do you vote?

Yes.

Gary.

Yes.

Laura?

Yes.

And Christine.

Yes.

Perfect.

All right.

Good luck with the city council.

Thanks for coming in tonight.

All right.

Our next item.

Also a public hearing.

This is Jim Duncan Fence Conditional Use Permit Request.

It's on the request of Jim Duncan, a conditional use permit to allow for a fence that is taller than six feet.

It's on approximately 0.16 acres, and it's located at 296 East Red Leaf Drive.

It's known as application 2025-0233-USE.

And Nick Whitaker's our staff contact.

So Nick, it's your turn.

Go ahead.

Thank you.

So yes, this is the Jim Duncan Fence Conditional Use Permit.

Oop I know.

Hold on one moment.

I have one of those mics that are.

Did you get the trick mouse?

I every time.

I think they put that in there just to keep everybody awake.

See how good you are.

Sorry.

We're gonna paint that one bright orange, okay?

We got to.

Okay.

Let me start over here.

We could ask.

Yeah.

And they deserve it.

They do.

Okay, so here's the vicinity map of the property.

Uh that red square here in the center.

An aerial map of the property.

Right here off of 800 east.

Land use map.

The land use designation is residential medium density.

And the zone is RA2.

So an overview of the request for the conditional use permit is um it's a request uh to install or the installation of an eight-foot uh fence.

And the purpose of the fence, it's not a perimeter fence, it's uh to be a barrier around a sports court.

And the fence is chain link with black vinyl coating.

Um here is uh Draper City Code regarding fence height.

Um anything over six feet and under ten feet um requires conditional use, uh conditional use permit.

Here's a site plan provided by the applicant.

The sports court will be located here.

Now this property is unique, and I talk more about this in the report, but this property is actually made up of two lots, and uh this pre uh predates um the incorporation of the city, I believe it was 1978.

However, historically it has functioned as one lot.

Um it would appear as though it is sitting in the front yard of this property.

However, it there is no there is no um residential structure on this property.

So there is no front yard because a the uh front yard plane can't be established without the residential structure.

So potential impacts would be minor impacts to visibility for pedestrians utilizing the adjacent sidewalk.

Um again, 800 east is here.

There's a residential structure here, and the sports court is behind it.

It's essentially it would appears as though it's a backyard.

So the proposed mitigation is that all requirements of the Draper City Engineering Building and Planning Divisions are satisfied throughout the construction of the fence, including permitting.

And that the applicant obtains a building permit for the fencing in the locations indicated on the approved site plan.

And there is a building application in already.

A building permit application, rather.

And here is an exterior photo of the property.

The um the property is in the rear, or the well, the subject property is in the rear.

Um so yeah, it would be again as you can see there's a residential structure here.

The actual property is behind it.

Um there is no residential structure on the property behind it.

So any questions or comments.

That permission, so we're usually getting that that request for barriers, right?

On perimeter fencing.

So this is interesting.

It's the first one I've seen of this.

So good.

Any questions for staff?

Okay.

We'll go ahead and invite the applicant up.

Is the applicant here?

Hi, come on down.

Just state your name, and you're welcome to add anything you like, and maybe it'll drum up a question or two.

But I'm assuming that you've got this is your access driveway here, right?

And you've got uh two shops, and now a sport court back on your property.

Correct, yes.

Good.

Anything else you want uh state your name to, if you would.

Jim Duncan.

We used to have a shop back there.

I I did business out of my home.

I sold that two years ago.

So now it's just a glorified man cave for my grandkids.

But we wanted to put a basketball court back there on the half an acre of asphalt uh along with the pickleball court.

So we actually painted the pickleball court on the asphalt.

Oh, cool.

That was already there.

Uh it's got a little bit of a polymer paint in it to it to give it a smoother hit.

But anyways, my wife's just tired of chasing balls.

And uh the extra two foot will help her.

Um and the grandkids, plus it'll give us a little bit of shape.

That half acre back there is uh real hot in the summer.

So we're hoping that the two feet can kind of help shade some of that in there when the sun reaches and starts to set.

So it's there's no neighbors close by you around because it's kind of in the back in the middle of that.

Uh there is a fence.

This separates those two lots, really.

Um I'm only putting three sides up around that because there's a fence already, and I don't want to have a fence and then ten feet and another fence.

Because I've got some pine trees along that back fence just before the asphalt starts.

So I'm assuming that's your residence there, correct?

It is my residence.

Okay.

Good.

Well, that makes sense.

Any questions?

All right, pretty straightforward again.

Thank you.

We'll invite you back up if we need to.

Okay.

All right.

This is again a public hearing.

Who would like to address this agenda item for up to three minutes?

I don't see any movement, so no takers on that.

We will go ahead and close the public hearing portion.

Commissioners, thoughts.

I think this is pretty straightforward.

It's not a bare, it's not a perimeter fence.

It's got setbacks from the from the property lines, and so I don't think I think the impact is going to be minimal to if any to the to the uh joining uh lots.

So I will make a motion if go ahead.

I move that we approve the conditional use permit as requested by Jim Duncan.

Application 2025-0233-USE based on the following findings for approval and subject to the conditions listed in the staff report dated December 1st, 2025.

And there is one reason on the report that uh reasonable mitigation measures are in place for the condition conditional use permit to alleviate anticipated detrimental effects.

So yeah, we should approve it.

I think great.

Who will second that motion from Gary?

I'll second it.

All right, thanks, Laura.

Okay, let's go ahead and put this then to a vote.

Gary?

Yes.

Laura?

Yes.

Christine?

Yes.

And Kendra.

Yes.

All right, congrats on that.

Looks like a good Christmas present then for the wife.

So thanks for coming in.

All right, let's go ahead and move on to our next agenda item as posted.

This one is also a public hearing.

It's the Pinnacle Towers Conditional Use Permit Amendment.

It's on behalf of Todd Dowst representing Comscapes, Crown Castle International, and Pinnacle Towers Inc.

It's a conditional use permit amendment request for 0.90 acres.

It's located approximately 16211 south, Minuteman Drive.

It's known as application 2025 0328-USE.

And Todd Draper's our staff contacts.

Go ahead, Todd.

All right, thank you.

This is a request for an amendment to an existing conditional use permit by doing another or new conditional use permit.

Here the blue line is kind of both the city and uh I believe the county boundary at the same time.

Uh and this is kind of all the gravel pits and whatnot you'll see there.

Um this is just the aerial.

You'll see it's a very small uh triangular shape piece.

Uh this is to the north, this is the south, and then you towers kind of towards the north end of it there.

Uh it is uh zone community commercial, I guess, in the area, and then it's in that M2 uh industrial zone.

Site plan here, uh pretty simple.

It is a lattice tower as opposed to uh what I think we often see as like monopoles.

Uh and that was approved approximately 25-ish years ago almost.

And so one of the uh concerns with that original approval, and I know that's in your staff report there as well, is that uh I think the original condition said something to the effect of bring it back in 25 years.

I think it got printed in that uh approval letter as expires in 25 years, but as uh we know that's not really how our conditional use permits work.

Uh and uh looking at some of the meeting minutes, it looked like it was intended to actually be reviewed uh at a 25-year interval.

So they're looking to remove that condition uh as it's been about 24 years, it'll be 25 at the end of uh towards the end of next year.

Um and then uh staff when we're looking at this as well.

Um it's just kind of a as well as long as we're doing this.

Uh there is one kind of uh condition in that original approval regarding the height uh that might be a little problematic as far as running the foul of current federal regulations.

So there's just a recommended condition in there to change that to allow it uh to go to the allowable height under those federal regulations.

So right now I believe we've actually done a either a permitted use or another conditional use uh for an extension to that tower.

It takes it from the 100 feet that was in that original conditional use permit to about 11.

Um this is just the elevation again, so you can kind of see that right there.

Uh, this was the uh antenna, and this is kind of a safety climb that's on the top.

So we usually don't look at uh lightning rods as part of the height.

Um, and this could be probably considered some of that as well.

Applicable may be a bit better able to explain that than I can.

So, like I said, just the request remove that portion for review or expiration.

Uh remain the other conditions would remain in effect, and then just adjust the condition uh regarding the tower heights better line with federal requirements.

And then here's a couple of uh aerial photos uh from the county, just because uh I was not gonna go all the way up there and try and get them myself.

Uh it's kind of up there, and these are kind of uh gated and private uh and and have a lot of regulation with the uh neighboring uh gravel uh pit.

And then just kind of a side view as well.

So that is the presentation.

Are there any other questions you might have for me?

Is um the parasailers and the paragliders, they don't land in that area or I don't believe they do.

Uh I do know that this is adjacent to the the state part uh kind of towards if we move back here.

I don't have the greatest, but um yeah, state part flight park area is kind of back in here.

I'm just worrying about safety, but this has been here for like I said, nearly 25 years.

So what's the height of it?

Uh 114, 118 feet right now.

Okay.

All right, thanks, Todd.

Is the applicant here?

Hi there.

You know the drill to state your name and then add anything you like.

Absolutely.

Good evening, Commissioners.

Um, for your record, my name is Todd Dowstone with Comscapes here on behalf of Crown Castle International and Pinnacle Towers.

I want to thank you for the opportunity to be before you tonight.

I want to thank staff for their thorough presentation and hopefully it'll make my job uh a little easier tonight.

Um here to answer any questions you might have regarding the proposal.

Any questions?

No, the diagram was very self-explanatory, and uh but you're you're you've got it a little bit easy, it's already there, right?

So you're not asking for much other than to just peacefully exist.

Exactly.

Keep on existing, so good.

Well, no, we appreciate that.

We'll open it up for public comment, and if we need to, we'll invite you back up.

Thank you.

So thank you.

All right, again, public comment is now open.

Who would like to address this agenda item?

All right.

I don't see anyone, so we'll go ahead and close the public comment.

All right, guys, what do you think?

It's a tower that I didn't know existed.

I don't think many did, so it's uh that's the way we want them, right?

We want to just have them lay low unnoticed.

So, what are your thoughts here for this uh proposal tonight?

It's another one that's straightforward, and I can make a motion if there's no other comments.

Yeah, let's do it.

Go ahead, Kendra.

I move that we approve the conditional use permit amendment as requested by Todd Dowst representing Comscapes Crown Castle International and Pinnacle Towers Inc.

application 2025-0238-USE based on the findings and criteria for approval and subject to the conditions listed in the staff report dated November 12th, 2025.

And that would include the seven findings listed there.

Thanks, Kendra.

Who will second that motion?

I'll second it.

All right, thanks, Laura.

Let's go ahead and put this one to a vote for approval.

Kendra?

Yes.

Laura?

Yes.

Christine?

Yes.

And Gary.

Yes.

All right.

Congrats on that again.

So we appreciate coming in and uh getting that taken care of.

All right, now we are moving on to our next public hearing.

This is item one E if you're following along.

Uh this is the tamed beauty LLC home occupation conditional use permit.

It's on the request of Marissa La Sanienta representing Tame Beauty.

Now you can come up and correct me on that if that's uh if that needs correction.

A conditional use permit for a home occupation that provides personal care services on approximately 0.01 acres located at 182 East Daisy Field Drive, known as application 2025-0214-USE.

And Nick Whitaker's our staff contact, so go ahead, Nick.

Thank you.

Um so yes, this is the tamed beauty L L C home occupation conditional use permit.

Here's a vicinity map of the property.

Right along here is I-15.

Aerial map.

And land use map.

Uh the land use is residential high density.

And the uh zoning is R3.

As you can see here, it is uh multifamily housing um in the form of town homes.

So the overview is uh to operate a home occupation that provides personal care services, which would be an aesthetic salon.

The overview of the business operation is that services are provided at the subject property, so customers come to the home.

Customers schedule appointments in advance.

Only one customer is scheduled per appointment.

An off-street parking stall is provided.

Appointments do not exceed 60 minutes, plus lead time in between appointments.

Between two to six appointments are anticipated per day, and the proposed hours of operation are 8 a.m.

to 8 p.m.

Monday through Saturday.

Uh for the customers coming to the home would be in the driveway.

I should note that this is a shared driveway with the unit next door.

Um each property has a one-car garage and a uh, or should say each unit rather is a one-car garage and the ability to park one vehicle on the driveway.

Um the applicant will be parking their vehicle in the garage while the uh customer parks in the driveway.

Here's the floor plan.

Um there is a spare room that the uh applicant uses to provide the services in the home.

So the impact analysis and mitigation.

Um we identify potential impacts for customers coming to the home and customer vehicles, parking, and related traffic.

Um the proposed mitigation is that all customer appointments are by appointment only.

It's limited to one customer at a time.

There will be the applicant will be providing one designated off-street parking stall for all customer vehicles.

And then an approval letter from the HOA shall be provided to Draper City staff prior to issuing a business license.

And the reason that that is listed on there is for a home occupation.

Um saying that they're okay with that essentially.

So as a condition of approval, we put that on there that before we issue the license, we would need to have that letter from the HOA.

Here's an exterior photo of the property as you can see.

Again, would be parking right there.

Questions or comments.

All right, we don't see any Nick.

Thank you.

Is the applicant here?

Hi.

If you want to come on down, and again, I'm sorry if I got your name wrong, so you're welcome to just state your name now.

It's Marissa Lock and Yenta.

All right, perfect.

Nice to meet you.

All right, anything you'd like to add to that presentation.

Um he did a pretty good job.

I'm a recently solo esthetician, so I'm hoping to run a small business out of my home.

I'll be offering lash brows and waxing services.

And it will be a fairly small business.

So, like he said, only two to six clients on a fully booked day.

And I know parking was a lot of the um some people's biggest concern, but that's why I'll offer my dedicated parking spot in the driveway to guarantee that no parking spots are taken from the neighbors.

On the street.

Perfect.

Any questions for the applicant?

All right.

We'll put it up to a public hearing just like before, and if we need to, we'll invite you back up.

Thanks for coming in.

All right.

Again, this is a public hearing.

Who would like to address this agenda item?

All right, I'm not seeing any movement, so we'll go ahead and close the public hearing portion.

Uh commissioners, we've been down this this area.

If you've been down this area in this these streets, it gets a little tight in there in the Daisy Field, Mayfield, uh Huntingfield, I think is another one there.

Yeah, there it is, right there.

So um in the townhomes, but that's uh with that one parking spot there.

I think that really does help mitigate that.

So and again, that's a that's a pretty low impact.

Um, you know, just having uh even on a full pack day.

But what are your thoughts?

I don't get a vote.

What are your thoughts?

I would agree with you.

So uh given using the driveway, I don't think there's any issue with street parking or causing further problems with congestion.

So yeah, it won't add to or take away from anything, just kind of net neutral, right?

And I can go ahead and make a motion.

Yeah, go ahead, Kendra.

You're on a roll.

Yep.

It's MVP.

Do we have a certificate?

I think we'll have a certificate for you at the end of the night.

Uh I move that we approve the home occupation conditional use permit as requested by Marissa Canienta, and I apologize because I know I did not get that right.

Representing tamed beauty LLC application 2025-0214-USE based on the following findings for approval and subject to the conditions listed in the staff report dated December 1st, 2025.

And the findings for approval are that the proposal complies with the standards for approval found in DCMC section 9-5-080E, and potential negative impacts are mitigated through the imposition of reasonable conditions.

Thanks, Kendra.

Who will second that motion for approval?

I'll second.

All right, thanks, Christine.

Let's put that to a vote then.

Kendra, how do you vote?

Yes.

Christine?

Yes.

Laura?

Yes.

And Gary.

Yes.

All right.

So that's approved.

Congrats on that.

Good luck with your business.

Thanks for coming in and doing it the right way.

All right.

The next one we've got is uh public hearing for granite construction yard site plan and deviation requests.

It's on the behalf of Tina Mudd representing granite construction company and stack Bangater LLC, a site plan application and associated deviation request for approximately 0.85 acres, located at approximately 134 88 South, 200 West.

It's known as application 2025-0103-sp 2025-0211-VAR and 2025 2012-VAR.

So our staff contact is Todd Draper.

Go ahead, Todd.

All right, thank you again.

So as you mentioned, this is the granite construction yard.

It's a site plan and deviation and the associated deviation requests with that.

And Bangater, and this nice new little road that they've make everybody drive around for the getting to and around the point.

And this is again the aerial map with the the entire property.

Again, there's the uh zoning.

It is sorry, I'm trying to remember if this is the land use of the zone.

This is the land use, which is uh the uh industrial there, and then the uh zoning also matching that.

So there's the little piece right there that we had rezoned earlier to match with the rest of it.

This is the proposed site plan.

Uh they will enter from kind of 138th in the south there.

This would be the access.

This is technically still right of way.

Um I don't know what the disposition of that will be in the future, but this is where where that access to the existing street will uh take place.

Uh the site would have the landscape material bins uh around kind of the perimeter, another set here in the center, and there will be a small building brought onto the site here, which would serve as the offices, restrooms, etc.

Uh, and then they would uh put a scale uh uh on this side of the building.

And then you'll see just uh requires about four stalls, so that's what they have.

Um, and then the landscaping does comply with the amounts that would need to happen for um the deviation requests, uh which in this case, so the entrance of the building is here on the north side, it's required to face the street.

Uh but under the deviation for site design, as long as they meet three criteria, you can grant a deviation from that.

The three criteria, of course, is that uh where we typically require 20% of the area to be landscape landscaping, they'll they'll be doing 30.

Um then uh excuse me, and then as we go, uh yeah, there's the landscape plan where you can actually see the plants that are gonna be in there.

Uh and then as we go to the elevations here, um, they actually do meet the uh primary materials requirement.

This will be uh concrete fiber board, and then they'll put some stone on there.

Uh it will exceed the minimum 75% by more than 10%.

Uh that that's kind of the second uh criteria there.

And uh oops, I was hoping the other one was there.

No, um so we'll just kind of jump back here to to this one.

Um, yeah, sorry, that one.

Uh another thing on the notion or staff report, there is just some minor things that are included, some conditions in there.

Uh when it came out to the plant coverage, it's not quite calculated quite right.

So I did provide some red lines to them, and they're having the landscape architect fix it.

Um the amount of area here actually is larger than what's shown here by just a fraction.

So there's just some discrepancies that they need to clean up, uh, and then I think they will will be uh pretty close.

I I figure it's at least at 71% coverage right now, needs to be 75% at maturity.

So it will probably be just a few additional plants in some areas where there's a little uh less coverage.

So the condition that I'm I've put in there is just to have them bring that back to staff uh prior to the issuance of the building permit for uh the the building to go on.

Todd, is that really the landscape plan?

Is every one of those a bush?

Uh not necessarily a bush, different perennials.

Okay, different shrubs.

Um it's gonna be draper gardens down there.

Yeah, yeah.

It is a landscape yard.

Yeah, all right.

Uh, but again, this is at this is to be shown at maturity there, so this is 10 years down the line.

So this is 10 years down the line.

All right.

Next 10 years it will not look that full.

Uh but they do comply otherwise with all other uh landscape requirements.

Again, the elevations there, north side with the entry, and then the south side.

There'll be some additional screening uh that will be on the east side for the mechanical equipment and some additional uh landscaping there as well.

Uh that is one of the issues that they also need to correct the plan is just getting the right kind of plants in for some of the screening.

Some of them are not quite tall enough.

So it will just be swapping out some species, things like that.

This again is just the floor plan, uh pretty basic couple of offices, uh restroom, and then just open office area.

So it'll also act as their scale house.

And then the fencing uh is required.

Uh they have proposed an eight-foot fence, which is kind of what we'd be looking for with a storage yard, a taller fence.

Uh also in there, as we kind of noted.

Uh the way a storage yard works, uh, in this case, they the storage yard is part of the type of use.

Uh the construction sells and service.

Uh however, it requires a 10-foot tall fence.

Uh, and to reduce that lower than 10 feet requires conditional use permit, so there's just a condition in there that they either build this exact same fence to the 10-foot level, which would be the general requirement, or get the conditional use permit, come back before you for that to reduce it.

Uh and then along the front, it will be masonry wall.

Uh it will have some uh horizontal articulation uh to it, so that's uh looks kind of nice there.

Uh we'll probably uh uh help to beautify the area even a little bit more than what then just looking at a typical block wall.

And then the sides will be uh that chain link was slat.

And then these are the site photos from earlier, because the ones I got most recently were a little bit dark.

Um so these were uh back from the uh when we looked at the zone change.

And so the other two DV, so the other deviation I missed, I totally forgot.

Like one deviation is for this uh site, the other one is just from the cross access.

Uh typically would require cross access to other commercial properties.

They've listed their justifications there and the and uh their materials that are part of the staff report for uh getting a deviation from that uh primarily looking at the fact that were there kind of a use with big trucks and things that may be incompatible with potential future uses in a different c type of commercial zone as opposed to the industrial zone here in the in the future.

So any other questions I can help answer.

Is that structure?

Is that a uh like a trailer or is that permanent?

Uh it they can probably answer that better, but the idea is yeah, it would be kind of a prefabricated building possibly on uh a trailer on on something that they would then make permanent uh while they're there in operation.

Okay.

Great.

Any questions for staff?

All right, thanks, Todd.

Is the applicant here?

You want to come on down, state your name, and then add anything you like.

Good evening, good to see you again.

Hi.

Um Tina Mud, granite construction.

We wanted to thank staff for all of their efforts on this between the zone change and the site plan review.

It's been a long haul, so we're grateful to them.

Um we're here to answer any questions, and we just wanted to say that we are in agreement with the conditions of the site plan review, and that we're just eager to get to business and be part of the business community here in Draper, and I'll answer any questions you have.

So the question I had there just on that structure is that that's also gonna be the way house, right?

So that needs to be elevated for people in their trucks to be able to kind of be on the same level with the with the person at the window.

Exactly.

It's an at co-prefabbed building, and then we'll put the um architectural design and accent on it so that it doesn't look like a break.

So it matches, yeah.

Um and then that was actually part of the reason for the deviation was because of the scale house, we had to switch the building entry in order to have to let our trucks make the full circle around it, deliver the products and then hit the scale.

So that was the reason we could not face, and then we also didn't want the door walking out into the scale where the trucks were, so it was a safety hazard.

Perfect.

And then again, you already heard my comments about the landscaping way to go.

So maybe in 10 years we'll be able to bring our grandkids over there, and you can charge a fee to walk around your your uh your your border.

Just just the the yeah, the landscape barrier.

So good job on that.

And then uh finally the any I mean, I know what's around this.

You've got a freeway on ramp and a uh on the other side you've got commercial, any dust.

I mean, it just the nature of the the product.

Is it is it is it gravel, is it stone?

Is it uh primarily stone gravel type landscape rocks that you would see in your yard, the colored rocks, the stuff that you're not gonna get at our regular quarries.

Um but I would add that part of our site design.

We did add dust suppression and emitters throughout so that if something's a little dusty, we'll be able to turn on sprinklers and spray it down.

Perfect.

Um so we'll should be handling that, and we're used to being we have aggregate quarries as well, so we're used to managing dust.

Yep, I bet.

We've seen your name before, so we know you're you're you know what you're doing.

Thank you.

All right, any other questions for for the applicant before we put it up to public comment.

Okay.

All right, we'll invite you back up if we need to.

Okay.

Thanks for coming in.

All right, this is a public hearing, so it's open for public comment.

Who would like to address this item?

All right, dust is settled, no pun intended there.

I don't see anyone, so we will go ahead and close the public hearing portion of this uh agenda item.

So, commissioners, what are your thoughts?

Kendra, you're welcome to don't be shy.

I was waiting.

See, now we've inhibited yeah, no, it's all kind of I guess I will make a motion if no one has any other comments.

We'd love feedback.

I think this is and it looks like it's gonna be several, right?

Three.

So we have I'll start.

Let's just go in order.

The building orientation deviation.

I move that we approve the deviation for building orientation as requested by Tina Mudd representing granite construction company and Stack Banger LLC for application 2025-0211-VAR based on the findings for approval listed in the staff report this dated December first, 2025, and there are two findings for approval listed there.

Thanks, Kendra.

Who will second that?

I'll second it.

Thanks, Gary.

All right, so this is for the building orientation approval.

Uh we heard the explanation for that, so no further discussion.

Let's put that one to a vote.

Kendra, how do you vote?

Yes.

Gary?

Yes.

Christine?

Yes.

And Laura.

Yes.

All right.

So next one.

I'll I'll give her a break.

Okay, perfect.

I'd like to make a motion, Andrew.

Okay, go ahead, Gary.

We approve the deviation for cross access as requested by Tina Mudd, representing granite construction company and Stack Banger LLC for application 2025-0212-VAR based on the findings for approval listed in the staff report dated December 1st, 2025.

And there's two findings for the approval in the report.

Thank you, Gary.

Who will second that?

I'll second it.

All right, thanks, Laura.

This is for cross-access deviation approval.

Gary, how do you vote?

Yes.

Laura?

Yes.

Christine?

Yes.

And Kendra.

Yes.

All right, and there's one last one here.

It's for the site plan.

I can take the site plan.

All right.

I move that we approve the site plan as requested by Tina Mudd, representing granite construction company and Stack Bingot or LLC for application 2025-0103-SP based on the findings for approval and subject to the conditions listed in the staff report dated December 1, 2025.

And there are five um findings for approval listed there.

Perfect.

Thanks, Kendra.

Who'll second that motion for site plan approval?

I'll second.

Thanks, Christine.

Okay, let's put it to a vote.

Kendra.

Yes.

Christine.

Yes.

Laura?

Yes.

And Gary.

Yes.

All right.

Congrats on that.

We appreciate coming in.

Yeah, thank you.

So let's move on to our next item.

Uh it's also a public hearing.

It's the city initiated geologic hazards ordinance text amendment.

Very exciting.

It's on the request of Draper City, a text amendment to portions of the Draper City Municipal Code, titles 9, 10, 17, and 18 in order to update and move the geologic hazards ordinance, known as application number 2025-0259-TA and Todd Taylor again's our staff contacts.

Go ahead.

Uh the purpose of these amendments is really to improve the clarity for applicants, uh bring in uh make sure that we have our best engineering practices and uh really uh again provide clarity through the implementation that we've been doing for the past you know several years uh and just cleaning things up.

Uh we're also bringing in state standards that were previously referenced, uh so that it's all in one sort of document.

Uh and then uh we're also correcting an error that was found in the code.

Uh so bringing that all together.

So as mentioned, the text amendments are to titles nine, ten, seventeen, and eighteen, and this is sort of a unique case.

We're bringing this all together as a package, but the planning commission doesn't have authority over uh titles 10 and 18.

And so currently the the ordinance is in Title 9, uh it's chapter 9-19, and we're proposing to take that out completely and move it to Title 10, which is our building regulations, and it would become chapter 10-7.

Um, and then as part of the amendment, uh the proposal is to create a geotechnical engineering standards document.

Um, and this is something that would be adopted by the city council by resolution, and uh part of that is moving the current appendices that are in the ordinance uh into that standards document since they didn't really seem to fit uh as currently sort of organized.

Um this is in the staff report.

It just shows sort of a crosswalk of of how each of those sections is going to be moved, and a couple of uh some new sections for the establishment of the standards uh for some uh exemptions and then again moving the appendices to the oops.

I forgot to there's a typo here to the geotechnical engineering standards, not the manual.

Yeah, um that really concludes my presentation and available available if you have any questions.

Very nice, thank you.

Any questions?

Okay, you're the applicant, so we'll go ahead and open it up public hearing, okay.

Is there anyone that would like to address this agenda item?

All right, we'll go ahead and close the public hearing.

Commissioners, what are your thoughts?

For it forward to the city council.

I can make a motion.

Let's do it.

I move that we forward a positive recommendation to the city council for the city initiated geologic hazards ordinance text amendment as requested by Draper City Application Number 2025-0259-TA based on the following findings and the criteria for approval as listed in the staff report dated November 24th, 2025.

And that includes the five findings for approval listed there.

Perfect.

Thanks, Kendra.

Who seconds that?

I'll second that.

Thanks, Gary.

All right, let's put that a vote then as move forward to the positive recommendation of the city council.

Let's uh go ahead and start with you, Kendra.

Yes.

Gary, had you vote?

Yes.

Laura?

Yes.

And Christine.

Yes.

Perfect.

Thank you.

All right.

So that completes that agenda item.

Next on the list, it's the Peterson and Bell properties, land use and zoning map amendment request.

It's on the request of Dave Johnson representing the Peterson and Bell families to amend the land use designation for a portion of 693 east and 138 south, from residential low medium density to residential medium density, and to amend the zoning designation from RA1, which is residential agricultural 4,000 40,000 square foot minimum to R3, which is single family residential 13,000 square foot lot minimums for a portion of 693 east and 138 south.

And from RA1 to RA2 for the entire property at 703 east and 138 south.

The rezoning is being requested in order to facilitate a future boundary line adjustment between the property owners.

Yes.

That you let me rattle that all off.

This is great practice.

It's in the record now.

That was a loss.

It's good practice.

Yes.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I need you guys to consider that, right?

What's going on there, Randy?

It's so nice.

You know, it's it's thanks for being so respectful.

You didn't interrupt me.

I was on a roll there and it would have just broken my stride.

Thank you.

All right, so that's been continued.

So how exciting.

All right.

Now we've got one we've got one other item on there, and uh, I think we've got some training, correct?

We do.

And didn't I just eat into two minutes of the 20?

I you know, that was great training in humility there.

Yeah, we we have a reading practice.

It's okay.

You can state state.

State rules apply.

Go ahead.

No, you're good.

And I'm just trying to make sure we've got it all set here.

So all right.

Well, welcome to uh our last and final installment or episode of uh our training for this year.

Um I was a little bit over the all over the place when I was trying to put this together, so I apologize if it uh may seem that way a little bit, but I think I gotta pull together.

Um I wanted to kind of just go over some of the best practices was kind of the idea.

Uh, but it uh kind of morphed a little bit more into kind of the Ten Commandments of thou shalt or shall not and whatnot, but we'll try and have some fun with it here.

So uh obviously we've got to have a Simpsons uh piece here.

Um but even though this is not about the Simpsons, uh it's always important, you know, to check who your neighbors are before you move in, right?

So uh we'll see if this will allow us to go visit uh another one.

Oh, it's not gonna let me.

We'll just do this, pull it.

Close that box.

Yeah, I gotta close that bang box.

Then right click openly pull up.

Oh, the edit.

That's why.

Thank you.

Maybe it will.

Maybe it will let me.

We'll just try and pull it from here.

Some people just know they could save hundreds on home insurance by checking all state first.

First night in the new house.

Like you know to check the neighbors first before buying a house.

Yeah, checking first is smart.

So check all state first for a quote that's eight you hundreds.

You're in good hands with all state.

Oops, that did not pause.

All right, that was that was a fun video there, but uh always need to check uh who our neighbors are first uh before we move in, right?

So in kind of just doing our back best practices, we just kind of want to check in.

We've gone over a lot of things this year, and so I kind of let them kind of our 10 pitfalls to avoid.

We've gone over some of these uh through the duration of some of the different trainings that we've had, whether those are the ones Spencer's done or uh that I've done and or Tracy.

And so some of this is like your end of your test, your your quiz, your final.

So that first pitfall is applying our personal preference instead of the code.

And that kind of is the difference of looking at the standards versus our opinions.

Does anybody have an example of one that they might think of we've come across?

Yeah, I have one.

It's the uh I don't like hedge rows, but they were allowed.

So we had to we had to let it stand, and then the good news is that we've now removed hedgerows from an allowable substitute for a fence, right?

Yep.

So that's it.

So that would be that was a big eye opener for me.

You know, why in the world are we using hedgerows as fences?

Exactly what application you're talking about.

Because the code allowed for it, right?

And it was a a bit of a loophole.

And so uh and that would bring me to my next one.

How do you stay grounded in the ordinances?

Well, we listen to you guys, and we uh we also need to know what those those what the code says.

So if you don't know, we don't know, then we can't stay grounded in that, and then we leave then we fall on our opinions.

So knowing the code and listening to staff because you know the code.

What what other ways?

I've got a few others, but I'm wondering if I'm looking for a little feedback.

What other ways can uh what other things tools help you stay grounded in the ordinance?

You do this every every month.

Um staff report.

Uh when you do that, it'll kind of clue you into the different pieces, the different things you can do, uh, and what what maybe might be out of bounds.

So second one is kind of along those lines, ignoring comprehensive plan or general plan.

So what is our general plan?

Who who's got a maybe a definition or an explanation for what our general plan is?

No one didn't we just do well.

What does it do?

Well, then we just make a change of that here with the city center and town center, whatever you want to call it.

So that's our like 30-year, 50 year plan for what's gonna happen here.

But but let me ask you this, Todd.

So for example, um to bring up what what's still pending right now, and this is I think is a big deal to Draper, but right now we've got this retail section there, that delta, that triangular delta on 138th and third east and banger, right?

Just that little piece there.

So I would love to understand the general plan better and how much teeth it it actually has in any instance because did the city plan 50 years ago for that to be retail and does that have any bearing even though it's not in our I mean you can't there's nothing in the code that says this is what's gonna go here.

But but help help me understand that, like where because it seems like I think that's a a great kind of segue here to this.

So the general oh Jen wants to ask you.

I don't think we want to go into specifics on that property.

Let's rewind that I did give an address.

Let's suppose there was a property that was, you know, yeah, yeah, that was that was that was kind of uh in question on any application.

Let's take any application.

Well, and and I think you guys you guys see these applications frankly all the time.

We'll kind of look at that first item on the agenda tonight, that butler's uh zoning map amendment.

They just had to request the zoning map because what they were requesting already complied with our general plan, our land use map.

Versus when we see both of those brought up.

Correct.

Um our goals always to kind of have the zoning and that land use map land use map match.

Um so when we get these requests, if it doesn't, what they want to do if it doesn't match, they also have to amend that other uh map.

Now our overall general plan document we adopted it in 2019, and there's been some um amendments for like the modern income housing section, the water element that we just did this month, the station area plans are now a part of that document.

But in 2019, we um pretty much updated like the goals and policies within the general plan as well as that map.

When we did that, we looked to add updating uh the land use designations for properties that were already developed.

A good example is Suncrest.

Our previous land use map just showed all of Suncrest is low density residential.

And if you look at that overall master plan community, because of all the open space, they have one unit per acre, but each neighborhood in each pod is not low density.

You have townhomes, you have small lot, you have large lot, you have a variety.

So having our general plan map actually reflect what is built.

Um that's one thing we did.

We did not analyze or change land uses for undeveloped properties or properties that may be subject to redevelopment, um, choosing instead to have individual property owners come in and make that request.

So it wouldn't be safe to say based on what you just explained the fact, let's say that was highly contested tonight, right?

With that first application, and and we were giving an explanation of why we were saying yes to that.

We wouldn't would would we or would we not want to say, hey, well, the general plan or land use is already in line with this if you notice, and all they're having to ask for is one instead of two uh pieces to this to be approved.

One is already right in line with that.

Would that be a valid?

It's not that it's an argument, but would that be a valid valid statement to kind of bundle up in there?

It it would.

And if you look at the um findings in our code and in the staff report, it being in compliance with the general plan, uh is it.

Yeah, you'll always point that out.

You'll point that out saying this is already compliant there.

And like you just mentioned, we we we've now just let this come full circle as as suspected or planned or hoped for, that if the applicant wants to change it, this is all they'd have to come in and do.

It's already in line with what we want.

It's not that you're saying yes to it, but you're saying this is kind of what we were hoping for.

Yes.

Okay, yeah.

And I might take it just back a little further, a little more basic.

But yes, uh, the general plan at its basis is advisory.

Uh and it is a document that's going to describe what we want it to be, what the city wants in this area versus that area.

Um not to get to the very specific one there.

There may be opportunities as we go along through things to make a change to the either the map or some of the general plan goals.

Maybe there's a goal or a principle in there that doesn't maybe align with things going forward.

And the other thing is with a lot of these applications, uh, we do ask the applicant.

It's a requirement that if you see their answers to our criteria at the end of the exhibit in the staff report, you'll see that they're they're asked to even respond.

How does this comply with the general plan?

Um so that's one of those ways we can use the general plan elements during the deliberation is to look at maybe what they've answered or look at the general plan as as well, so it's a good document to get to know.

Um so if you're looking for a justification to to say yes to something, or even maybe one to say no to something, um, you can use the general plan and those aspirations or goals in that to back that up.

So there's there's not just the map, that's probably what you'll see more often that we deal with the kind of the maybe broad brush, not really zoning, but uh land use types that go into that map, and then different zones may be uh compatible with those uh different areas on the general plan land use map, but there's also additional goals about housing, about the environment, about um I'm trying to remember a few of them off the top of my head and they're not there, but um you know, just about uh the economics and and some of the other policies and goals of the city.

So we can also look to use those and in making findings or bolst bolstering the decision.

So moving to the third one, this one's kind of a fun one because I know we sometimes do it.

Uh asking applicants to make redesigns at the meeting.

And of course, this could make things easier and efficient and work better for everyone, right?

All right.

What what what might what could possibly go wrong?

Right?

Ideas.

Well, you they could adopt what you recommend and then it's a disaster, and they come back to the city saying you recommended this.

You did just it's just a lawsuit, right?

I mean, it's basically saying, Well, we did what you said, and then it's well, can you give us an advice on how that should be worded then?

Because it happens frequently, right?

Like, well, hey, how about we just do this and how about we do that?

What's the what just help us the the decorum on how we just push that back?

So and and by the way, when we I think it's when we say, Well, let's just table it and let's just not vote on it and let's just send it back to the drawing board.

Is that what you're talking about here?

Yep.

Right there.

That's it.

Fast forwarded.

There you go.

When sorry, what?

I know there you go.

I said yeah.

That's why I said, when is a continuance appropriate?

When it's allowed.

If it's not allowed, which in in the case of a lot of ours, we've got to make decisions.

So opening it up could lead to some additional confusion, uh, could open up the final decision to some additional risk.

Um could disagree that say it wasn't noticed or that that they weren't uh planning on that, might have some some other risk of an appeal.

Todd, can I interject for a second?

Yeah, Spencer, please do.

Most of the time, staff is pretty good at finding out whether an applicant's uh request is going to be in violation of the code or is not going to meet some kind of criteria for a deviation, and most of the time staff is pretty good at talking applicants off of the ledge of let's go to planning commission and let the planning commission decide.

If we're unable to do that and they show up and they have something that violates our code or doesn't meet the deviation requirement, um I would rather take the appeal where you have evidence before you to say no than to say go back to the drawing board and come back to us with these things that we want to see.

And then if they come back and they still don't meet the code, now they say we've done exactly what you've asked, and now you're asking us to do more.

So vote no the first time and uh and then they can find out for real that staff is on their side trying to help them be compliant before they show up before this body.

And then when they show up before this body with a with an application that is non-compliant, uh they have nobody but themselves to blame for getting denied, and if they have an appeal, it's super easy for me to say, here's the staff report, here's the record, these are the things that the planning commissioners said.

That's why we have substantial evidence to uphold the planning commission's decision and appeals and variance hearing officer, you need to uphold their decision, and it wins every time.

Perfect.

So if I can get specific on something that's in the past, Mary one time just popped off with something that was absolutely the case, but not the case.

And that one was one that we struggled with for almost the whole 30 minutes talking about this should be a development agreement or something to that effect.

So you see right there, if we would have said fine, that's the reason no, very quickly, great, we hear it all out, and then we put a no instead of hey, this needs to be continued, and why don't you go back and come go work out of uh um you know some kind of an agreement development agreement outside of here?

That was that was one example right there that I'm like just kind of we were just kind of holding our heads going, are you kidding?

One thing to keep in mind, um, under our code planning commission can approve, approve with conditions or deny.

So you really don't have the authority to just continue an item.

Well, that's the thing, it wasn't yes, it wasn't even it was uh to for the positive or negative recommendation, it was legislative.

Yeah, so at that point, it's just say yeah, it's we're in a negative on this, and here's why.

Yeah, push it forward, and then the city council can hear this is why they gave us a negative recommendation, it still moves forward, not continued, not tabled, not shelved.

Got it.

Yeah, so it's not that we're trying to just ram ram things through or push things through, it's that if it gets to here that it's it's been vetted to that point, and it's either it's their decision to be here, period, right?

I mean it's never it's that applicant's decision to be there.

Administrative applications like site plan subdivisions, I would say 98% of them that come to you, they fully comply with the code.

Um there's always gonna be a uh one off where there's either something we need to condition, or we're calling the applicant to say you really need to pull the item off the agenda.

Um and we and we do have those conversations.

Yeah, uh they get one shot at that if that's for an approval, and they they actually get two if it's if it's legislative, right?

But on the on the administrative stuff, got it.

Yeah.

And tied to this, but uh, this is the so when what what might be appropriate now?

I'm not saying redesign.

Um we've had some occasions, so like uh Jennifer mentioned, approve with conditions.

We'll have some list of conditions there.

There have been a couple of instances where what the applicant is telling staff and what we've got in that report and what we've got in those conditions based on that isn't what they present over uh the podium here, and sometimes you may need to look at modifying those conditions.

It's not necessarily a redesign, it may be that request.

Does this work for you if we change this uh condition to this versus that?

Not that's not necessarily redesign of the project, trying to say, well, if you move this here, you move that there, change these setbacks.

That's more the redesign.

So just keep that in mind.

There are some appropriate times where uh because of what comes up in the meeting, it might not always fall right in line with those conditions or those findings in the staff report.

So just want to make sure you're aware you're always those are our suggested conditions, suggested findings.

If you feel the need to modify them, that's why kind of that middle suggested motion is in there to help you do that.

Other questions on that before I move on.

Hearing none.

So since we have uh good intentions and we've got a few uh uh related.

And now, great moments and unintended consequences.

Part one window wealth.

The year 1696.

The problem, Britain needs money.

The solution.

Tax windows, windows increase with relative wealth and are easily observed and verified from afar.

A perfect revenue generator is born.

Sounds like a great idea with the best of intentions.

What could possibly go wrong?

To avoid higher taxes, houses were built with fewer windows, and existing windows were bricked up.

Tenements were charged as single dwellings, putting them in a higher tax bracket, which led to rising rents or windowless apartments.

The lack of ventilation and sunlight led to greater disease, growth and one rather irate.

Charles Dickens, it took more than 150 years for politicians to see the error of their ways, perhaps because their view was blocked by bricks.

Great moments and unintended consequences.

Good intention.

There's one.

And now, great moments and unintended consequences.

Oh, that didn't do it.

There we go.

There we are.

Okay.

Making sure I've got to the next one here.

So that uh maybe number four pitfall, just inadequate findings or motion language.

Um we try and provide those for you.

You can, like I just had mentioned, go away from those.

Um I know Spencer has told us many times, but what makes a finding defensible?

Rattling off one or two or three of the uh outlined items there that you've given us.

So for example, we denied a uh home occupation, it would be based on the that it wasn't able to mitigate one of the four factors or two of the four factors or whatever was motion uh mentioned there.

Kendra, I'm gonna ask you specifically what's the burden on appeal.

I do not actually know on appeal for uh one of these.

I should know.

So what makes what makes it defensible is also the same burden on appeal.

It's a substantial evidence standard.

A substantial evidence standard means the quantity and quality of evidence that could allow a reasonable person similarly situated to come to the same conclusion that you did.

So it's nothing, but it's also not more likely than not.

It's just got to be enough that somebody could look at the same facts and reasonably conclude the same conclusion that you came to.

So cite those things, that makes your finding defensible.

And if they're not cited specifically, uh, because obviously the public doesn't know any of you know they they don't have that staff report in front of us.

Is that what helps with that too?

Is pointing that out, or I mean it's it really just that point between the applicant and the city.

Doesn't matter what the what the general public is thinking, right?

So we're just what what I'm asking is how's how how it how do we word that?

Is it enough to just say supported by the findings in the staff report?

I have argued that citing to the findings in the staff report meets the substantial evidence standard, and I've not been I've not lost on that on appeal before.

Okay.

So that's a great not a script, but a script.

So that's that's that's the script that we would use is we would do that.

And if we wanted to, we could get more specific, but that would suffice.

Yeah, if you want to take the uh telemarketer approach and follow the script, I'm happy with that too.

Perfect, perfect.

I I would say um, you know, the the applications I've seen that you guys have denied have been typically home occupations.

Um a lot of times it's been you know, di different uh testimony from the applicant during the hearing than maybe what they told staff, maybe what's in the staff report.

So as you're having that discussion and asking questions the applicant, if it is different than what's in the report um that's leading you to a denial, then you're gonna want to make sure you have findings that are are referencing those concerns.

So, Jennifer, we've had the the most typical change that we make is they say, Oh, yeah, I won't do that then, right?

Like because they'll see that they'll start to see the pushback and saying, Oh man, really, one car in front, you know, could you get down to zero cars?

They'll be like, fine, I won't have any cars at the property, for example.

Uh that's not in the staff report, that's not anywhere, but they're saying, hey, I'm gonna do that.

Tell us what not to step in there.

So I mean, you have the ability to add conditions.

The criteria to approve a conditional use permit is are there detrimental effects and can those detrimental effects be mitigated?

So if during your review you're finding um, you know, the proposed parking is a detrimental effect, and the mitigation is you're not going to allow that, you can condition that.

Um that does give the staff teeth to then go through code enforcement if they continue to have that parking, they're in violation.

Um, there is a provision to uh uh remove or unapprove a conditional use permit, revoke a conditional use permit.

Um if they are in violation of those uh conditions, if we've gone through a code enforcement and they continue to be in violation, we can revoke it, and then that would also result in the revocation of you know their business license that's tied to that additional use permit.

But you've seen that where they'll hear the public clamor or the comments, and then they'll say, fine, I won't do that, and I'll give up on that.

And it's possibly not very often, but possibly something that wasn't listed in there as one of the it literally was brought up at the meeting.

Yeah, and then the applicant's like, oh, I didn't that was a blind spot for me.

Great, I'm gonna take care of that.

And that's when we've had great motions put together that are adding those to the conditions.

And you want to do that.

It's not redesigning, that's just we discovered it and we've okay.

And I think the um public hearings we have with conditional use permits are really important because a lot of times the neighbors do show up and say, This is what I've been seeing on a daily basis, um, which may or may not line up with what the applicant's been saying.

All right.

Maybe it goes there.

All right, number five.

Allowing public hearings to go off the rails.

Um couple questions.

What tools are available for keeping order and relevant versus irrelevant comments, and of course, we need to go visit the citizens of Pawnee first.

I will say, Andrew, you do a wonderful job.

Get auto insurance.

What I hear when I'm being yelled at is people caring loudly at me.

Now, I have a few things I want to say about Laura Linny.

There is a disturbing lack of benches in Ramsey Park.

I want to sit more.

I found a sandwich in one of your parks, and I want to know why it didn't have mayonnaise.

What's so funny?

Oh.

What are you?

Some kind of moron?

Why don't you have hand dryers in the park bathrooms?

There's so much more sanitary than paper towels.

Anyone knows that?

Am and May.

Except for turn up.

Except for turn up.

My daughter's five.

Well, your daughter is an idiot.

Her daughter is an idiot.

Her daughter is an idiot.

Her daughter is an idiot.

No, no, she's not.

I made this in one of your pottery classes.

It's terrible.

If sugar is so bad, how come Jesus made it taste so good?

My bird is missing.

I need to commit to whole.

Let me just slip to that form.

There's no time.

He can flap.

The government shut down.

Who's gonna stop Al Qaeda?

But isn't all food bad for you?

I've been eating lasagna and muffins every day of my life for 40 years, and I feel terrible.

How do you like it?

No!

How are you like that?

You're holding coffee.

So why should the bill of rights be in the official time capsule?

But this painting of my dog is in time capsule seven.

I mean, where are my kids supposed to play?

The Rock Warry?

There's rocks in there.

There's a sign at Ramstead Park that says do not drink the sprinkler water.

So I made some tea with it, and now I have an infection.

Sir.

Sir, are are you are you are you listening to me, sir?

Sir, I'm talking to you.

Sir.

Sir, are you aware?

That was good.

That there is waste in your water system.

What's so bad about corn syrup?

It's natural.

Corn Yep, I was gonna kill about the two-minute mark.

So back to our presentation.

Oh, I got two of them up.

Um a lot of irrelevant comments in that uh clip.

How do we keep those to a minimum?

I know Andrew does a great job.

What other things might we do besides just having Andrew?

I've noticed a couple things.

So, you know, there every once in a while I'll have to tell the there's tell people there's no clapping.

So you guys can always give me a reminder.

If I don't do it, make sure you're always welcome to pop up and just say, hey, and also, you know, when we have a big group like this, sometimes there's a tendency to clap or cheer.

We won't have any of that, or we'll just shut the public hearing down.

So that's a good reminder.

Um I was here when Drew before me had to threaten that there was a magic button underneath here that he had to call the the draper PD in, right?

He goes, I'll hit the button here, you know.

And they were I I won't say who that, but if you were here, that was a long time ago.

Anyway, there's that.

And then so uh so you I'm giving you permission just to remind me to do that.

And then also there's another um awkward moment when they ask questions, right?

So when they're asking questions, so I think they're gonna be a little bit of better explanation on what this is, what public comment is.

It's like you're welcome to ask questions, we won't answer them here in a dialogue.

We'll just take notes and ask the applicant to answer the questions for you.

And so those are some of the things, but going off the rails, I don't know.

I think you do a really good job of I had a I had a crazy grandma growing up.

Oh, really?

And then I think the other thing you do really off the rails is when we know it's gonna be something that's hotly contested and everybody wants to get up and say the same thing.

You have a great way of saying, please don't get up and repeat the same concern about traffic safety, wildlife, whatever.

If we've heard it once, we understand it to be a concern, and we don't need to hear it 50 times, but you do a very good job of doing that.

Thank you.

And I think one of the things that helps mitigate that is if they're if they know we're that hopefully I'll allow it.

No clapping.

All right, Bonnie.

So one of the things that helps mitigate that though is if they know we're taking notes on that, right?

So if somebody says, hey, traffic, traffic, traffic, if they know we're taking notes on that.

So uh it's always and you're welcome to do it too, but just to to bring those questions up for the applicant afterwards to say, hey, traffic was brought up and noise was brought up and light pollution was brought up, and so that everybody and and it's I think it's really important for these for everybody to just be heard.

So sometimes I will let that just go on and let the same thing be said over and over again.

I think people get it, they're like, okay, really, you know, do the eyes start to roll even out.

You can see their eyes rolling.

And and I would always recommend let people have their time.

You know, we we have had a past uh chair that would actually interrupt people.

It just made them mad.

Yeah.

Um, I mean we've heard this.

Do you have something unique to say?

Um we want people to have their three minutes.

I think having the clock does help.

Yeah.

Um because it limits the the time to that three minutes.

Um you're a little spilledy, give it the first public hearing.

If there's a lot of people in the room, maybe every public hearing before you start it, give that spiel.

That way that gives more time for everybody to actually hear it, maybe digest that they have three minutes that you're not gonna answer questions, that kind of thing.

Yeah, just to just to make it less awkward, because that is that awkward where I'm just smiling at him blinking, you know, and they're asking me three questions.

Uh the irrelevant, do you do any of you remember the gentleman that got up?

It's only happened once, and he got up and talked about the prisoner's right to vote.

Had nothing to do with anything.

I remember that.

Yeah.

And it's like, you know what, that's totally legit, right?

Because it's a public hearing, they talk about whatever they want.

No.

Oh, okay, great.

See, so this is training, so coach me on that.

So the happen again.

The interesting thing about uh a public hearing is that the public hearing comments do need to be relevant.

Um you could theoretically cut somebody off and say, All right, now you gotta get off that train of thought about this prisoner's right to vote, because that's not relevant to anything we're discussing.

We are not a body that considers that.

So please talk about something that's relevant to the issue before us, which is this text amendment or this conditional use permit or whatever else we have a public hearing for.

Okay, Spencer, let me take it one uh let me change it.

What if it wasn't prisoners at and their right to vote?

What if it was the way that our parks are landscaped or something like that that we do I mean it's not relevant to anything on the agenda item and you notice I say it all the time anything about this agenda item who'd like to address address this?

Yeah, even if it's relevant to what you do as a planning commission, because that could be part of a planning aspect.

Uh if I come in for a C UP for uh a salon, and somebody gets up to give a public comment and starts giving a public comment on uh our cross access provision in and parking and deviations.

It has nothing to do with home occupational conditional use permit for a salon.

You can interrupt them and say, I'm sorry, that's not really relevant to our conversation.

Would you like to weigh in on Spencer's salon?

Perfect.

Okay, and this is not an open invitation to invite your cousin to come in here and punk me at the next meeting.

You can also remind people the city council does have uh general public comment before every meeting or at the beginning of every meeting.

Um so if they have just a general comment about whatever random thing.

Oh, that's good to know.

They can go to council.

So it's after the pledge and before the meeting gets started, is that one that is?

Okay.

No, that's great to know because now they feel hurt.

Before the consent item, but yeah, yeah, after the patch.

Now they feel hurt, hey, maybe this is a better, better forum for this would be the city council meeting.

You know, in their gener general general uh comments.

On the topic of it.

I think that was just because she was upset that the neighbors were fighting and we need to all love each other because it's just love everybody, and we're like, okay.

Oh, I just let it go.

That's fine.

That's just like on the topic of relevant versus irrelevant comments.

I'll make this addition after a certain number of times hearing about the same issue that might be relevant, the repetition makes it irrelevant.

Perfect.

And and you're free to ask somebody before they start, okay, we've heard about traffic, and we've heard about uh how much you don't like your developer neighbor.

Um so can you please limit your comments to anything else that you have that's not not inclusive of that?

Yeah.

And if they have something prepared in their in their hands, like there's something that they're reading off of, they can go and they look and look down on it.

And then if they say something that's one of those two things or one of the things that you ask them not to speak about, they just end up with egg on their face, right?

And then you look professional, you look like you're trying to keep the meeting going.

Um, but they're the ones who look silly.

So if we have a big giant group of people, it's preferable to just say, okay, every once in a while, hey, you've got this, limit your comments to not this and not this, right before they give their three minutes and dare them to speak about something else.

Yeah, and I think uh again, I I think that kind of polices itself if they if they know we're taking note, and then we're because if someone's asking about traffic and they know that the applicant is going to address the questions that are brought up, I I I mean I've seen it.

People are just they're self-aware enough, some some aren't, but most are they're self-aware enough to just say, Yeah, I'm not gonna ask about that again because I know I was promised this is gonna get addressed.

And I I would encourage everyone up here just to make a small stack of just what what's been talked about.

So in case the chair misses it or something like that happens, then you can say, Oh, and by the way, there's also one more for the applicant, it was about you know light pollution.

We forgot to talk about that or the height or whatever.

So that's good.

This is all good, but thanks for giving us permission that that's when what can be cut off.

Okay.

Hey, I was also kind of wondering at some of these contentious meetings.

Like, do you guys ever have them just line up?

Because sometimes waiting for people to sit down and stand up and then come to the podium is like it's like it's a while.

Would it would it be just for for the flow of the meeting?

So like just have them come up like one after another instead of them um waiting for them to get up and they're all waiting for everyone else to go first, and yeah.

Yeah, we could.

I mean, if it gets I I the only time I've seen a line, Christine, is I was at a city council meeting and it was for the special, it was when Marcia Vaudrey was getting I I don't want to say voted in, but it's when they had an opening or they had a vacancy and people oh, you know what it was.

We had them line up in a specific we had them line up and sit in a specific seat.

That's what it was.

We planned it all so that so that they were flying for the one row would get up and stand in line, and then the next row would get up and stand in line when the when the last person speaking from the previous row got up, and they each got two minutes.

Um that was a unique meeting.

That was that was but yeah, you're right.

So that's something that if again, if we see that it's just a big it's stalling the meeting out, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, just say if you wanted to invite people to stand up and get in line to speak on a topic, so we wouldn't be playing that game where somebody's trying to go last and get the very last word.

You could say tucker them out for their three minutes.

I mean, they'll just be they'll I'll be tuckered out.

Well, what you could do is you could set a timer for three minutes and say you have three minutes to get in line if you're not in line by the done.

We'll see if we get we'll see if we get that hard.

These are my neighbors, man.

We gotta be nice to these guys, so we'll see.

We'll see.

Yeah, people can follow instructions.

Yeah, they can.

I do want to get you out of here tonight, too.

So well, what I love is all the discourses into the 20 minutes, correct?

That was the perfect six.

Number six here, of course, ex parte contact and conflict disclosure.

And then we go over this beginning of each year, and so we will go over that more uh when it comes to uh needing to fill out all your conflicted disclosure forms at the beginning of the year.

Um ex parte contact.

I know we've kind of gone over it in the past, uh, and Spencer goes over it kind of annually as well.

Um what that really we need to make sure is you know, you live here in the community, some of these people are your next door neighbors, they're gonna want to come up and talk to you and ask you about the thing they saw on the agenda or the yellow sign they saw in the yard.

Um do your best to just kind of tell them I can't talk about it.

Anyone have other things that they've done or or suggestions or ideas you've used to kind of work through those type of discussions.

Have any of you guys ever had a call from somebody about an item?

No.

I I have I have, and so the uh what worked, I actually talked to you Mike about this right years ago.

I'm like, hey, I got some dude calling me, and he wants to meet with me, right?

He wants to meet with me, talk all about it.

And uh I I called Mike and I said, Hey, well, I just told him I just directed him to Jennifer or two staff on that because I I have absolutely no input on it, and I would ill advise them.

And secondly, I said um now the city council is a little bit different there, and I uh I'm uh under the understanding that you could meet with them because they're elected.

So I checked out with Mike, and that seemed to be okay.

Any input on that on other ways to handle that?

Um this is Mike Barker we were talking about.

Yeah, um my yeah, my recommendation is to just say as a member of the commission, you're not allowed to talk about it.

Um but here's you know the contact information for staff and you can give them either my contact or Todd's contact information and we're happy to talk to anybody.

Yeah so and that that was the uh that gentleman came from Sandy and he said Sandy has uh did you guys know this?

I I knew this before he mentioned this, but Sandy, I guess they set their city council people in a in office space and have open walk in just to just yell at me hours.

Yeah, like pawny hours, right?

Yeah, so that's uh when he mentioned that I said, Yeah, that's not me.

That's not us.

We're appointed, we're not elected.

And if if that's oh, you know, if that's a thing in Draper, I don't know of it.

But the uh but direct them back to staff.

Correct.

Yeah.

And and we'll get emails too and the emails.

I mean, you can do one or two things, you just don't reply and look flaky, or you just say, I'm you know, I'm gonna have to direct it back to staff as a commissioner.

If you do get emails forward it to staff, um you know the public notices that go out have our contact information, staff planners information for the for the public to provide us the public comment so we can make sure you all of you get all of the public comment that's been submitted on an item.

So if somebody contacts you forward it to us, we'll respond um to them.

And you do a good job at this, but sometimes don't you get emails like right now?

You'll get right now in the meetings now.

I usually it's before, but I've literally gotten an email from a guy two minutes after his public comment.

So how how appropriate or inappropriate is it to say, hey, can you give us just five minutes here?

We're gonna read through these emails that just came in.

Is that appropriate?

Yeah.

To take meeting time to say give us just a minute.

Yes.

Um, that that felt uh there was one.

I think uh Siobam mentioned that there was one and he's like, Oh, there's like t like four four emails had come in between whenever and and the meeting, and they were brand new, fresh, but they were they were given to us, but then we couldn't read them real quick.

So that's appropriate to say give us just a lot of things.

That would be appropriate either before or after the public.

We did get some last minute comments that have been provided on paper and we wouldn't have to be able to do that.

You know what, we haven't been able to read those.

We're gonna take three minutes.

Can I just take a break?

Can I just excuse people and take a break and say, hey, this one I would think a break flows over.

It's a two minute break, takes ten minutes, they won't come back for ten minutes.

So we'll just let them sit here and have that awkward pause while we read.

I agree.

Um we're gonna try and send those comments out to you on email when we can ahead of the meeting, a couple hours before.

Sometimes it gets to the point we're gonna print them and bring them here, especially when we get some you know, same day late arriving ones.

Um and then just yeah, again, remember uh when you do if you do end up in a ex parte contact situation kind of thing, besides referring to us, just remain neutral, don't you know?

Uh they're probably trying to get uh fill for which way they think you're gonna decide.

Try to remain neutral as best you can.

This will help preserve kind of that due process, right?

For everyone involved.

Um and then I think uh Andrew, you brought up a great point there.

If if some ex parte contact happens, let us know.

Either staff or the attorneys.

Um we can help guide you and if there's any kind of disclosure that might need to uh occur as a result of that contact.

For the most part, probably nothing.

But sometimes maybe something hey, around this person they're a friend.

We had a conversation that came up, we we tabled it, you know.

Um and uh things like that.

The other thing is then just with the conflict disclosures.

Um do your best to look at the agenda ahead of the meeting.

If you've got a personal business interest in any of those items, uh you may need to recuse yourself.

So again, same thing.

Let us know.

Uh contact uh attorneys and we can uh help assist with that too.

So I had a weird situation with this, and this might happen to you, might not, because you guys have clients and whatever.

Um I looked at the agenda item, didn't have any conflicts.

My boss shows up that runs at the time I was running a Keller Williams and the owner of like four Keller Williams came in and I text him, I said, What are you doing?

Here he goes, nothing.

I'm just listening to listening to public comment, you know what I mean?

Because he's a developer.

So long story short, uh I didn't have to recuse him and anything.

Also, he gets up for public comment on one of the agenda items.

And I think I had to say, hey, this is this I work for this guy.

So what do you do in that situation when it's just right on the plate?

It's number nobody on the agenda, and it's not just like what we talked about tonight, a friend in the neighborhood.

Yeah.

There's nothing wrong with it, but what are we doing?

Having additional disclosure above maybe what we have to do.

Um keeping that uh keeping it kind of in the eye test, if you will.

But I don't know if you had something, Spencer.

Tell your boss this is personal time and quit bothering you when you're off the clock.

I like it.

I think some you know, somebody you know being at the podium for public comment is not uh a big deal.

I mean, you guys do live in the community.

Um we've seen applications come in where the application is in your neighborhood.

You you know half the people there giving public comment.

So just because you know somebody, that doesn't necessarily make a conflict.

Um we did have a previous commissioner um Scott, his company, uh it was an IT company, but yeah, uh, did work and had a contract uh yeah with an attorney.

So anytime that attorney came representing an applicant, he recused himself because he had a financial connection to that um applicant's attorney that was representing that application.

Is there any conflict in commissioners going to a city council meeting and giving public comment?

If it's gone to the planning commission, I would not recommend doing that.

Interesting.

I will say no because you're still members of the community and you're still able to weigh in.

So you are able to.

You can you can weigh in in this meeting as planning commissioners, but you have you can wear a different hat when you go to city council to give the public comment.

And you would never make the folly of saying as a Draper City Planning Commissioner, I say this.

Don't do that.

Yeah.

You're just saying as Joe Schmoe that lives over here, has lived here for 20 years.

I really would love this or hate this.

That said, you have a unique opportunity to get more than three minutes on the record in this meeting.

Yeah.

So don't waste your shot in this meeting just to have to go to city council and say what you think as a as a private citizen there.

Well, the the the reason what I'm thinking of, Spencer here is that I would actually say something completely different different.

Uh uh, my comment would be very different in that meeting.

That's what we're doing.

And you're and you're welcome to make those those comments that are different and maybe even contradicting because you might feel obligated to to you might feel one way as a as a good idea.

Yeah, I wanted to stay obligated to say a different thing as a plan.

I want to stay more neutral here, and then I mean it's my town too.

I I if I feel strongly about something, you're saying that's okay to go there, but as Joe Citizen and nothing more.

Yes.

Got it.

Now, Andrew, to go back to your hypothetical issue about well, you're not so hypothetical issue of your boss showing up.

Your boss is a citizen, potentially, or property owner in the city is welcome to make a comment before this body.

Um the decisions that you make as a planning commissioner cannot be based on public clamor.

And if the input that your boss had was valuable input to consider on the record for to make a decision, we should hear that and we should take that into consideration, even though you work for that person.

Now, that said, uh there are some ethical guidelines that are in effect, one of them being that you if you're if your boss was here on behalf of an applicant, at that point you have to recuse yourself.

Yeah.

No, it was it was literally what are you doing?

I was driving looking at one of my properties and thought I'd stop in.

That was it.

And then he liked something that one of the applications, you're like, Oh, yeah, I'll talk about this for three minutes.

So that was that.

But anyway, we got that all settled.

So all right, number seven, number eight.

Yeah, number seven here.

Uh pitfall to avoid.

Failing to read the staff report or review the packet.

Um we already went over a bunch of these, so I'm not gonna go into a lot of detail here.

Just uh the way the staff report's organized, you're gonna have some background info, some information on the general plan, uh the zone and its purpose.

Uh then there'll be the more detailed analysis about the ordinance requirements uh and what the criteria for review or approval are.

We'll have those suggest conditions in there, suggest motions, and then uh also make make sure to look at the exhibits.

We we tack them on to the end, but uh and I know if you're printing it out and looking at it, they might not look great, but hopefully as a PDF, you're looking at digitally, you should be able to get in and see uh some of the details on some of those larger plans.

So um and then if you have questions on things, come prepared.

Um more than happy to answer those at the meeting.

Number eight, not understanding different application types and processes.

So we go over this a lot, the legislative versus administrative, um, where we have zoning land use map amendments that you're making recommendations on uh to the council.

Uh you're not making that final decision.

I think you're all pretty good at that.

You understand that.

Uh, but sometimes uh, you know, we'll have the zoning text amendments, those you want to make recommendations on as well.

But then we've got kind of the two I see a lot, we got conditional use permits and site plan review, and sometimes that gets a little fuzzy, especially if they're coming in together.

What part's the conditional use, what parts the site plan.

So if you have a question on it, or or maybe we haven't explained something well in the presentation, do ask.

Um, because if there's confusion on why we have conditions at the end, we can we there may be some conditions of an approval for a site plan, but that's not the same as mitigating factors for conditional use permit.

So trying to keep those two uh a little separated a little bit will help.

Of course, subdivisions have very specific state law standards.

You have to approve them if they meet ordinance.

So sometimes it's kind of more of just going through the motions here with those, uh, with the exception of a subdivision amendment, where you do have to have a finding of that there's good cause for the amendment.

So same thing, even just similar applications can have different uh level of review and standards for approval.

Then of course, I put the last one in there, deviations.

We have them in our ordinance.

Almost every deviation has completely different standards for what you need to approve it.

Um so keep keep track of those.

We did have a couple of those with the the storage yard tonight.

One of them kind of actually was in both courts, the other was just in one.

And then number nine, and we kind of went over this a little bit with the citizens upon any debating with the public, make sure we're maintaining the decorum.

When should staff answer instead?

Ideas on that.

No, no, no, no ideas.

When hey, whenever we don't know.

Whenever you don't know, as much as possible, I guess.

So I I think when you mentioned earlier, uh, again, if they're asking questions and they're looking to you to make answers, refer them over to staff.

We can answer them after, or I think we do a good job of this.

Hey, that's that's a question we don't have an answer to.

You we'll ask the applicant.

We'll keep it listed, these um, but uh yeah, when to ask staff if if they're especially this goes back to the they're making changes on the fly, trying to get you trying to wheel in deal and ask you to try and improve something different than what came in with the staff report.

That might be a good uh occasion as well to ask staff.

Or I'll I'll add to that.

Um we and this was you know the rezon earlier tonight.

We had a resident who was had questions on access and things like that, and it's too soon to answer those questions because we're at the rezone stage, not the design stage.

Um a response besides just saying we we don't have that information, it's too soon, could be that she could get with staff to find out what the standards are.

If we were giving a response during public comment, right?

But for that one after that, right?

Afterwards saying, hey, that was a question that was posed.

Uh that's too early for that, but you're welcome to ask staff after the meeting.

Correct.

About what the standards would be.

Yeah, and our number 10.

We talked a little bit about it with the ex parte uh kind of uh contact, but talking outside the hearing, emails, text side conversations, what is okay, what is not.

Um for the most part, if it's discussing an item that has not yet been presented on the agenda, it's not okay.

Um, and then like Jen mentioned a little bit earlier uh tonight as well.

If we have one that has come to you and maybe hasn't gone all the way through the council process, might not be a good idea to talk too much about that either.

Um, unless there may be some procedural questions, you're always welcome to talk with us as staff or or with the attorneys.

Um reason for that again, risk of undermining the process.

Something could come up on a pill.

Uh it gets pushed back, and then it's got to come before you, and then maybe we've there's been other conversations outside of there that run the risk of uh violating some due process.

So try and uh keep that to a minimum.

I know.

We we occasionally will uh talk about things or or ask questions about how something procedurally happened during the meeting um after the meeting, but uh just be aware of that as well.

And of course, uh I'm not gonna go clear clear through the end.

We'll we'll cut it here, but of course, just some more of the best intentions with unintended consequences.

And now, great moments and unintended consequences.

Part one housing costs, the year 2021.

The problem rent is expensive in St.

Paul, Minnesota.

The solution limit residential rent increases to three percent a year, even if there's a change in occupancy.

Sounds like a great idea with the best of intentions.

What could possibly go wrong?

The initiative did not account for inflation, which, you know, is kind of a thing.

And unlike most rent control initiatives, the new law also applies to new apartment buildings, discouraging housing construction and investment, which is why multifamily building permits are down over 80% in St.

Paul while ramping up in the rest of the state, which explains why St.

Paul is the patron saint of tent makers.

Great moments and unintended consequences.

And now I'm trying to cut that one.

And now so we'll cut cut it on this last one.

I didn't get to all of it, but now one more.

The year 2005.

The problem fossil fuel consumption is too high, and biodiesel consumption is too low.

The solution create a generous tax credit for companies who blend fossil fuel with environmentally friendly biofuel.

Sounds like a great idea with the best of intentions.

What could possibly go wrong?

Turns out paper companies were already using a pure biofuel known as black liquor, which is extracted from wood during the paper making process.

It's a super convenient energy source to run paper plants and mills, but only blended fuels were eligible for the tax credit.

So paper companies bought fossil fuel they didn't need, added it to the biofuel they were already using, and instantly qualified for very generous blended alternative fuel credits.

Exactly the opposite of the tax credits intent, but sometimes it all boils down to paper.

Part two billboard bans.

The year 1968.

The problem?

Billboards cluttering the scenic vistas of Vermont.

The solution?

Ban billboards.

Sounds like a great idea.

With the best of intentions.

What could possibly go wrong?

As the billboards came down, something new popped up.

A 12-foot gorilla holding up a Volkswagen, a giant squirrel in a striped bathing suit, a 19-foot genie holding a carpet, a veritable zoo of gargantuan concrete sculptures, all in the name of public art.

It might seem cute until a development dispute with a local bureaucracy results in a 700-pound middle finger on a 16-foot pole.

Enjoy the view, Vermont.

Alright.

Thank you.

We'll cut it there.

I know I've kept you longer than we needed to for this towards 2026 credits, correct?

Uh we're almost there.

Okay.

Um but again, just to to kind of end this for the year as well.

Thank you so much for all you do for the city for your service.

Uh we really do appreciate it.

The last little bit with this is um we as staff are gonna try and bring what we think is going to work uh with some of the best intentions and some of our best practices, but uh it is kind of up to you to point out if there might be an unintended consequence and and make a good recommendation to the council on on things like text amendments and things like that as we bring them through.

So appreciate you for that, and uh thank you.

I know there are a few of you that still have a little bit of training to do.

I'll try and get some new emails out uh because some of you probably met your training at this point um for the year, and thank you to everyone who has already completed uh that.

Any other questions or things I need to go over?

Great job, Todd.

Thank you.

I was just gonna remind everybody our last meeting for the year is next week.

Perfect.

Great.

Well, I see no other business on our agenda, so that means I move we adjourn.

Alright.

Adjourned.

See you next time, guys.

Most of us don't know how to do that without Mary.