Call to order the government operations committee meeting for August 21st, 2025.

Let's stand for the Pledge of Allegiance.

Liberty and Justice.

Approval amendments for July 17th, 2025.

Here's our motion.

Move for approval.

Second.

The motion by Councilmember Russell, second by Councilmember Kazimczek.

All those in favor.

Motion carries three zero.

We have two items on our agenda for today.

The first item is discussion of the impact of for-profit and community nonprofit retail activities in Carroll Creek Park and on downtown businesses.

Item will be used in the first by Councilmember Kelly Russell.

Thank you, uh Vice President Shockleford.

Um want to give a brief introduction to what the what the uh topic is today, and I'll just share from my uh executive summary because it'll probably give a clearer picture of everything that we're talking about here.

So prior to we're we're going to be discussing the impacts of for-profits on our community nonprofit retail on our not nonprofits and and uh downtown businesses.

So prior to the revisions made by the city's parks and recreation uh department in the fall of 24, the park fields and court usage policy did include a mission statement that basically said that the principle of Carroll Creek Linear Park is to provide a facility to house live outdoor concerts, plays, school functions, city functions, and for use of requested nonprofit charitable groups or groups raising funds for a registered nonprofit group of the city, and that they must in writing confirm that they are supporting the fundraising effort on their behalf.

Although the mission statement did not explicitly prohibit for-profit organizations from renting areas of the Carroll Creek Linear Park, as permitted under Chapter 29's sales of food and other goods, Article II vendors and peddlers.

For example, in 2024, Sheikh events DC and Royal Events Groups rented the entire Carroll Creek or portions of it for approximately 30% of weekends to host events with vendor fees ranging from 145 to $695.

As a result, local vendors face higher costs, while nonprofit organizers may also charge modest fees to participants, these are typically much lower.

Beyond diverting foot traffic, these markets often sell goods similar to those already offered by existing shops, further impacting local revenue.

Beyond the economic implications, for-profit events also reduce the availability of weekend dates for local nonprofits to host culturally meaningful programming.

Events organized by local nonprofits aligned with the original mission of the Carroll Creek Linear Park, bringing the community together while reinvesting proceeds into Frederick's charitable and civic landscape.

In contrast, for-profit events typically channel their revenue toward private interests, offering minimal minimal tangible benefit to the broader community.

To preserve upcoming weekends during this holiday season, the downtown Frederick Partnership has reserved the creek and is utilizing it to enhance the downtown atmosphere.

Activities include live music from local community groups, entertainment, chestnut roasting by a conservation nonprofit, ULUG and marshmallow roasting with local scout troops, and holiday scavenger hunts that include stops along the creek.

This was an unplanned expense and programming effort for the partnership, which is the city's MOU partner and planner partner organization that manages the downtown Frederick Main Street program.

It's economic development program through historic preservation.

As Frederick continues to grow as a regional hum hub and vibrant diverse community, the city is likely to face an uptick in applications from outside for profit entities.

If left unaddressed, this trend could further strain the integrity and availability of Carroll Creek Linear Park as a community centered space.

So I invite you to uh reflect on some uh testimony that you'll be hearing from uh local uh businesses, nonprofit organizations, um, and contemplate whether or not we might want to make some changes to the way we currently do business.

And I would first invite uh Kara Norman, who is the executive director of the downtown Frederick Partnership to sort of set the table for us, and then we have a number of guests that I'd like you to hear from.

Thank you.

Good afternoon, City Council.

Kara Norman, I'm the director of Downtown Frederick Partnership, and I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you all today about this important issue.

Um Kelly did a great job.

City Council Member Russell did a great job of presenting um the where where we are today.

Um and I'd actually have several downtown business owners that I'd like you to hear from first.

These are the folks who brought this issue to our attention at the partnership, and we've been working with them as we've continued through this conversation.

As is already obvious, we've already been before the park and rec commission, and we're looking forward to the conversation today to continue thoughts about policy options that we could take to help this system work better for our downtown businesses as well as others who'd like to enjoy the park.

So with that, um I'm gonna have um we have a oh sorry, yes.

If we can't, I don't know if um Councilmember Putzant, you have any questions before we start.

If we may, can I have just Director Smith come just real quick and kind of okay?

I'll I'll speak.

How's that?

Is that better?

Yeah, you can start.

Is that is that better?

It may just be the acoustics.

Okay, okay.

Well, Director Smith knows the he knows the um if you can kind of give us just the if you we'll kind of give it to the backdrop as well in terms of the core mission.

I know we have this here, but in layman's term, like the core mission of the creek in terms of its intent and certainly.

Uh Bob Smith, uh Director of Parks and Recreation.

Uh, thank you.

Um good question.

Uh so it's the core mission is as Councilmember Russell has in the executive summary.

Um, I guess throughout the registration and reservation process, we never had this concern on Carroll Creek because these groups were not asking to utilize the park.

Um post-COVID, we noticed a small uptick of these types of reservation requests.

Um, and then I guess uh peaking in 2024, as Councilmember uh Russell alluded to.

Um at that time, uh Kara and I had some discussions.

Uh, and the policy that's being referred to was kind of an internal reservation user guide uh that we had.

So, based on that conversation, um, the decision was made to make some revision to that policy to create a window when reservations could come in.

That window now is November, uh, so November 1st.

The reservation process opens for the following calendar year.

Um reservations come in during the entire month of November, and then during the month of December, staff goes through those reservations and grants reservations based on an order of priority that we set forth uh that's that's in the current policy.

Um I guess you know it's through that process.

Um I don't know if then if the number of requests went down.

I can say for 2025, uh there were 101 event days that we have on Carroll Creek for nonprofits.

Uh there were 14 event days on Carroll Creek throughout the entire calendar year that are the for-profits.

Uh and then there are, I believe, eight event days that were general public, or someone might rent the trellis, or someone might rent the uh amphitheater for a private event.

Um the revision, like I said, to that internal policy was done to kind of reflect order priority kind of not control, but to be able to dictate what kind of events are on the creek uh and give the nonprofits the MOU holders, the historical events first usage.

Um I will say that the the mission language was omitted from the revision, not in any uh hostile manner.

It was more of a concern that it wasn't enforceable because the LMC currently dictates that those events can be held on the creek.

Um so that that's kind of the backdrop.

Is that what you were?

That's a good information to for us to hear in terms of kind of how we got here with this with this um particular issue.

Okay.

I I I I would also, you know, like to add the the parks and recreation commission heard uh heard this in July.

Um do you have their their recommendation?

Um you know, it uh I I think Parks and Rec, not I think Parks and Rec, the department itself uh does agree with that recommendation as well.

Uh you know, with with the goals being to uh recognize the the creek as the community asset we have.

Uh we recognize the concerns from the downtown businesses.

Um and uh, you know, we we want to find a happy medium, if you will.

Um I will say personally uh some of the concerns that we do have within the department are more procedural concerns uh and how this would be enforced moving forward.

Uh defining for-profit, nonprofit.

Uh I think that's that's a very slippery slope.

Um, you know, we want to be certain that we don't set some precedents that would affect other park rentals.

Uh I know this is a policy, you know, directly for Carroll Creek Linear Park, uh, but we do have nonprofits, for profits, you know, groups that that rent parks throughout the city.

So those are just some of the concerns.

Um, maybe not even concerns, but I I think opportunities for discussion as we as we move through this process and you know, looking forward to a resolution.

Any questions for Dr.

Smith.

So one of the things that you brought up is this um definition of for-profit slash nonprofit, right?

We all know that um the hospital is a nonprofit.

Well, Mental Health Association is a nonprofit, and yet some of the top executives make 300 to 500,000 a year.

Um to me that's not nonprofit.

Like that's just crazy.

Um I I think that definitions like that, we need to be very careful of definitions of nonprofit versus profit.

Another thing that I think that we need to be careful of is um so much of what happens on Carroll Creek is fundraising.

Um different nonprofits use Carroll Creek for fundraising.

Some was used in the past for fundraising, and that's kind of just evolved into an event that they pay somebody else to run.

So really it's not so much fundraising for that particular nonprofit, but um I absolutely think that we need to be careful of use of the creek.

Um downtown businesses that choose to be downtown and pay that extra to be downtown.

We need to help ensure their um success.

I think how we do that is gonna be the issue.

We need to just be very, very careful about how we're moving forward with this.

Thank you.

I'll probably wait to hear public, I mean I'm public comment.

But I'm just thinking in terms of that.

The use of the creek is high.

It's probably used every week.

Just about with major traffic, major businesses in that on it, that trade-off um fixed downtown business overall every week, I'm sure their bottom line is affected by that every single week.

And so I don't I mean I don't I'll wait to hear a comment, but the caution of that is I don't want to speak for them in terms of were they willing to trade off or give up for that.

Or not to say or just no activities on the creek at all to help support downtown business to my colleagues' point.

I'm not saying that's an option, but maybe I think I'm really um I'm really excited to just sort of broach this conversation because it's been it's been bubbling up, and I think what I would like to see happen as we move through this and hear from our businesses is as a council.

How do we look at what we do and you know maybe make some modifications, which can look in like in any number of things, and I agree we have to be careful with it.

There are ideas such as we may even want to have blackout periods where nobody rents it, right?

Because maybe the people that just live on the creek want some quiet time.

So I think that there are a lot of options that we can discuss, but I thought it was really important to bring sort of the the people that are having the the most impact to us to so they can tell us what their stories are and and how it's impacted them.

Thank you.

Sure, thank you.

So at this time, if um you can raise your hand and we can we don't have to we can kind of do this in necessarily informal, but if you raise your hand and didn't um come forward, just please give your name and if we have if you're a resident general address for record business for the record, please.

Hi, um, my name is Mindy Collie.

I'm the owner.

Hold on, Miss three minutes, please.

Thank you.

I'm sorry.

I'm the owner of Vintage MC, uh located on Patrick Street.

I'm a downtown resident and we've been in business for over 10 years.

Thank you for giving us this opportunity to share with you the impacts uh that this is having on our businesses.

I know most of you are aware of the larger sense, but I'm gonna just give you some specific numbers about how the change in uh with Parks and Rec allowing these for-profit flea markets on the creek in the last three years has affected our sales.

We're open seven days a week, but the majority of our sales are on Saturdays and Sundays with with less than 25 percent coming the other five days of the week.

Uh during the last two years, we've seen a decrease in weekend sales averaging 15 percent year over year.

During the prime market season last year, la late spring through late fall, weekends on the creek with an event show a 30 20 to 30 percent drop in our sales revenue versus weekends without a creek event.

In the past, we had to contend with slow sales during large events like in the streets festival, the arts and pride.

We would never ask for those events to be changed because we're willing to take one for the team a few times of the year.

But please understand that those events do impact us negatively as well on our bottom line.

So when the rules changed and these for-profit market events started happening, our three or four bad weekends went to 15 or 20 or more bad weekends.

The worst of this was the holiday season of 2024.

The holiday season is our busiest and most profitable time of the year.

In 2024, the city allowed two of the four holiday weekends, our busiest by far, to be filled by a for-profit market.

We subsequently had one of our worst fourth quarter and holiday seasons.

The weekend after Thanksgiving is our best weekend of the year.

Last year we had to compete with an NL McLaughlin professional for-profit market on that weekend for the first time ever.

We saw a 14,000 dollar drop in sales on that weekend over 2023.

That amounts to a 60 percent decrease.

14,000 on our formerly best weekend of the year.

That is not something a small business can sustain.

The other two weekends, uh the the third weekend of December saw similar drops, there was a market that weekend as well.

The other two December weekends when there was no competing markets, our numbers were very close to 2023.

This shows directly the negative impact those markets have on our sales.

Those two weekends when those markets were allowed to compete directly with our downtown business.

We saw a huge decrease in sales, and because of that, our sales for the holiday season were down 23 percent from 2023.

This summer in June, three out of the four weekends had a creek event, two uh that were nonprofit and two that were for-profit markets.

We had a bad month.

In August, three weekends have creek events, including four days of for-profit markets that host vendors that compete directly with our downtown business and others.

This past weekend was a stark demonstration of the damage these markets are doing.

There was a large two-day festival on the creek.

The Carroll Creek parking garage was full by 11 o'clock, so our show shoppers had nowhere to park.

I've heard from many businesses on Patrick and Market and in Chabro that it was one of their worst weekends of the summer.

Some were down 30%.

One store had one sale on Sunday.

Our foot traffic was down 32% over both days.

Another business sent her staff home because nobody was in the store.

This is just from this one weekend.

I could go on, but my time's up.

So thank you.

I want to I want I'm trying to be fair to everyone in terms of I was rushing to try to get through the important points there.

You can also submit that for the record.

So if you want to submit that to our clerk or to us by email, that would be that would be great information.

Thank you.

Hello, my name is Ann Campbell.

I'm with Terra Moda, which is a men's boutique up on North Market.

I have something the owner and I put together.

On August 9th, our sales were 2390.

And on August 16th, the market for profit market weekend, our sales were 480 for Saturdays.

Saturdays are our best sales days, and these type of events have a clear detriment to our revenue.

Contrary to the intent of driving more spending downtown, these events give less money to our locally owned jobs, creating businesses downtown.

The idea that the September has three of these events plus in the streets is devastating because we are already experienced a downtrend in consumer spending in the DMV area.

And coupled with the increased tariffs, it's difficult to see how we continue to thrive as a downtown business when we aren't the priority of the group.

We are local residents, we work unpaid hours in our own stores to keep our costs low and hire local residents to work on our stores.

We're committed to growing a strong Frederick by inviting short-term for-profit vendors to sell week after week in our town.

It's squeezing our ability to truly be the lifeblood of our community and keep operations open.

We ask that the creek be reserved for nonprofit and heritage events, and that for-profit fairs be both highly limited and tied to big annual events like art in the park and be hosted in locations that will not discourage shoppers from coming further up Matt Market and Patrick Streets to shop local.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Um hi, my name is Amira.

I'm the owner of Chappelle and Co.

on North Market.

Um I want to start off by seconding everything that you know my colleagues have stated, but I also want to give you guys a little bit of insight on what these for-profit markets are making off of our community.

So these private vendor markets that are along the creek are hosted by for-profit organizations, most of which are out of town and out of state.

So they're able to collect or the city collects a fee from parks and rec that ranges from about a 145 dollars to 695 dollars.

So they can rent a section or the entire creek.

Um, but these organizers are able to charge their vendors 200 plus dollars for setup.

If these vendor if these organizations are advertising 100 plus vendors, that means they're walking away with over 200,000.

Let me follow my script.

20 plus thousand dollars.

Um, but meanwhile, us as local businesses are paying thousands of dollars every month in rent utilities and operating costs, and we are part of this community.

We invest in Frederick year-round, and we help create the vibrant welcoming uh atmosphere that draws people here in the first place.

An out of stout, an out of state organizer can't swoop in and pay a couple hundred dollars set up on the creek, and that directly competes with our brick and mortar mortar stores.

Oftentimes they're selling some of the same um types of goods.

That is not fair competition.

It's siphoning money away from the businesses that keep our downtown alive.

Um, yeah.

Thanks.

Thank you.

Hi everyone, can you hear me okay?

A little closer and you can pull the mic closer.

You can pull it.

Yeah, it will pull it closer to you.

There you go.

There we go.

Okay, sorry.

My name is Sumner.

I am the owner of the Muse here in downtown Frederick.

And I am in a bit of a unique position in that my business model supports local artists by offering their goods for sale in my shop.

So I have kind of unique view on the vendor markets on the creek as I can see the benefits and risks they offer to vendors while also seeing the negative impact they have on local businesses.

Considering that the current economic climate is extremely challenging for both independent vendors and brick and mortar shops, with many businesses reporting slowing sales, decreased revenue, and increased overhead costs.

My hope is that we can find a way to work collaboratively and create an environment that uplifts everyone.

Rather than continuing a system that puts vendors in direct competition with shops, I think we should focus on fostering a symbiotic relationship that protects current businesses while also helping vendors to capture success.

Currently, downtown Frederick has numerous support opportunities available to local vendors, including selling their goods at shops like my own, the Muse, as well as Frederick Made, Art Collective, and other shops.

In addition, local businesses such as Attaboy Barrel House, Gravel and Grind, Give Right Studio, and Take Root also frequently host pop-up markets that offer platform for vendors without pulling shoppers away from the brick and mortar stores.

And downtown businesses have also hosted night markets in collaboration with vendors.

In fact, we're working on another one for for the fall.

To summarize, for-profit markets on Carroll Creek are not needed to provide our local vendors with opportunities to sell their wares and increase their visibility.

Opportunities already exist within current businesses.

I propose that we focus on strengthening these existing opportunities and fostering connections between shops and vendors rather than allowing whoops, I lost my spot.

Sorry.

Rather than allowing continu Carroll Creek to be used in a way that takes revenue away from local shops and puts it in the hands of for-profit organizers who are profiting at the expense of both Frederick vendors and businesses.

With that in mind, I request that Carroll Creek Park be available for rent by nonprofits or heritage events only.

Downtown Frederick recently had the honor of being crowned one of America's most beautiful main streets by Reader's Digest.

If we want to keep that designation, we must do what we can to ensure that our local businesses are supported and set up for success.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Sure.

Thank you.

Hi.

Hi, my name is Crystal Williams Palmer.

I'm the owner of Crash and Catharsis Rage Factory.

I'm not a retail store.

However, I have had interactions with the specifically the for-profit markets.

So in 2024, when the for-profit market started to come up more and more, I received a phone call from NL McLaughlin, one of the bigger for-profit markets.

They requested for me to become a sponsor of this event.

So these are the markets to piggyback off of Amira that are paying a set amount and then charging their vendors 100, 200, 300.

They then started reaching out to businesses asking them to be sponsors to get money on top of the vendor fees.

When they approached me, they said we're here to get balloon artists to get balloon people to make the signs, DJs, kids' activities.

All of these things, the people that were actually doing the activities were then sponsors and not getting paid.

And then they were in turn saying, yeah.

Then they were in turn saying to us, this is a sponsorship.

So that's what the money was going for.

So with these for-profit markets, they're not only getting the money off of the vendors, but this most recent one had six sponsors on it, several local businesses, and the sponsorship money is not directly going to Frederick.

It's going to the runners of these markets who may or not be paying the people that they're claiming are getting paid for these events.

Questions.

No questions.

Thank you.

It's insight.

Thank you.

Appreciate it.

Thank you.

Sure.

Hi, my name's Miranda Mossberg.

Um, I didn't prepare anything.

I'm the owner of Frederick Maine, but I'm gonna try and be quick.

I wanted to piggyback off of my colleagues and share a slightly different perspective from a small business owner.

Um, I know we're all small business owners.

I think a lot of times when the discussions are going around about the for-profit events and supporting these small makers, they have a certain idea in mind of what the businesses downtown are like.

I am the business that had one sale on Sunday.

I typically do 50% of my business's revenue on Sundays.

Our business is very small.

We're new.

I started out of college, no investments, no marketing budget, just handmade products and a team of really great people who helped me.

And our business relies on foot traffic and word of mouth.

And the people that are our customers go to these markets because they know that there's local artists.

When we first opened, we did pop-up markets every single weekend in our business.

Six months later, these creek events started popping up, and we completely lost that entire part of our business because no one wanted to do indoor markets when they could go on the creek and have a significant amount more foot traffic.

So we had to completely change our business model.

We uh did a whole lot to rebrand and move and shift away.

But I just wanted to share from a slightly different perspective of a small business.

Um we don't make 20,000 a month.

I make enough to pay rent, I make enough to pay my employee and pay myself, and on days like last weekend when there was a festival on the creek and we had one sale, that meant that I didn't get to pay myself last week.

So it impacts us in more ways than you can imagine.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Sure.

Yes, sir.

I didn't plan on saying anything, but I'm listening to people and your name and general.

My name is Darren Clark.

I own a local business called Clark Computer Services, and we've been servicing the city for about 23 years.

I I I'm listening to everybody talk here, and I just want to point out that you know, right now with what's happening down in DC and the federal government, it's really getting hard operating a business.

You know, I think everyone I talk to, all my clients down in downtown Frederick, you know, they're struggling right now, not just because of what's going on at Carroll Creek that I'm listening to today, but more because people aren't able to spend as much money as they were, you know, previously at this time last year.

So when you have, you know, events going on during a business's money making period, you know, like during a holiday, you know, that puts a double whammy on those businesses, making it harder for them to stay in business.

You know, most people think that a small business owner is rich, you know.

But the truth is most people most small business owners are like everyone else, and they're just getting by.

You know, the money that they're making isn't going to their large mansion, you know, it's paying their bills, and it's helping them put food on their table, and it's helping them, you know, put their kids in college, and that's just the truth.

And I think that, you know, the city really has to consider these small businesses in downtown Frederick and you know, weigh what's going on in the economy right now when they're making the decision.

And that's all I just want to say.

Thank you.

Appreciate those comments.

Anyone else?

This is a slippery slope here.

Just briefly, if I may, um, I'm here on a separate agenda item, so but if I can take my city hat off for just a moment, I am the um I serve on the board of directors for the subject.

I'm Gerard Bowens, and in this context, I am uh serve on the board of directors and the events committee chair for an organization called Soul Street.

So I believe I I wanted to offer a little bit of comment on this just because I believe that our our events and our organization fall into a little bit of a gray area where this discussion is involved, and I know the focus is on those for-profit um, you know, out-of-town events.

Um we are a registered nonprofit with the state of Maryland.

We do organize uh temporary pop-up markets on the creek.

Uh we don't necessarily make for-profit um uh revenues for those markets.

That goes back into our operating budget to continue to serve uh the businesses that we serve.

Um but we do organize those markets with for-profit companies, small businesses.

Um we we try to organize and organize those markets to provide uh access to new customer bases.

Um but I think I wanted to go on record and just say that um you know, we have a great work in relationship with CARA and the downtown Frederick Partnership, but we didn't want it to be lost on us, the impact uh for downtown Frederick business owners.

And we just I think I just wanted to, I think without uh if I can be so bold as to speak on behalf of our board that we would just welcome the opportunity to be part of the conversation on how we can continue to support the vendors that we represent and achieve our mission while mitigating the damage and the effects to downtown business owners.

So I just want to kind of publicly say that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Any uh anyone else comments want to share once twice may I offer comment questions?

Any questions?

Yeah, question my colleagues, absolutely.

Yes, please.

I I'm very uncomfortable right now.

I uh I um I believe that this was brought up and and presented by council member Russell.

I believe that it's in concert with Downtown Frederick Partnership.

I could be incorrect.

If it is, then I think we need to know that at the beginning, and that's a that's a shared presentation.

Um if it's not, then downtown Frederick Partnership has the same ability as everyone else to do public comment.

I am very uncomfortable right now.

We just had a city employee come up during city work hours to speak, and that I I'm very uncomfortable.

I'm very, very uncomfortable with that.

I like you have no idea.

My heart is beating right now.

Um I I would like to just ensure that we have very specific rules about who's speaking when, etc., to make it fair for everybody because otherwise it's not fair for everybody.

It's just not.

No.

I do have other questions for the specific issue itself.

Sure.

This this was in conversation with downtown Frederick.

I want to speak for my colleagues.

Uh councilman Russell, you can clarify that.

It's really in partnership with all the the businesses that have been sharing feedback.

The partnership has been sort of the um, I want to say the collection point of all of this information that was and I, as a member of the downtown Frederick Partnership Board, have been privy to these conversations.

So it's me bringing this issue forward based on the feedback with our MOU partner and the and the businesses they represent.

So I I don't know if that clarifies things.

I also realize that the the chair has the ability to accept to comment from whoever the chair decides to accept comment from.

That's not I concern is fairness.

That that's all that it is is fairness.

I do have a couple of of questions having to do with the issue itself, but I don't know if you're gonna allow it.

Sure.

No, I prefer to take questions and we come back to Ms.

Norman after after these questions that you okay.

So I think this is probably more of our staff.

The questions are more of our staff.

So um the these terms have been brought forward.

Heritage and nonprofit events, right?

Heritage events, I'm guessing this would be things like we've had um so Pride on the Creek has been for a long time.

Uh Frederick Arts Council has um their event on on the creek every year.

Um I'm guessing now now it's probably been 20 years, the fire nights.

I'm not firing it, but first Saturdays will be going on.

It's been right around 20 years, because that was my first term that that got started.

So just to be clear, the first Saturdays are a downtown Frederick Partnership sponsored event, not a city event.

Well, Pride is not a city sponsored event either.

That's not what I'm asking what heritage events are.

Just a point of clarification.

Well, nothing that I mentioned is a city sponsored event, I don't think.

I I mean Kara might be able because that I know a lot of it, the heritage related events would fall on first Saturdays, um, Asia on the Creek.

Um again, I'm just trying to figure out the the like what's being used as a heritage event.

My concerns are things that have been mentioned, um, things like Sol Street would not be a heritage heritage event because it was not here in the past, but that doesn't mean that it's not important for us as we move forward to have we talk about equity inclusion all the time.

So I I get a little concerned when I hear heritage events.

I the the question really is of city staff.

Um but yeah if you don't know the answer to the question, a number of people brought up the term heritage events.

And and I I can't say what they're referring to or what their definition of a heritage event is, but in my opinion, those would be the events that we talk about.

The the Frederick Arts Festival, Pride.

Um, Maryland Kraft Brew Fest, uh Asia on the Creek, some other events like that.

That I think that gets into the the definition terms on on how we define the events.

So, how many years are we talking?

It needs to have been there for it to be a heritage event.

I I think they all vary based on how long, but what's the definition, correct?

I think the word heritage is being used as an alternative to the word cultural event, not that it's heritage, then it's been with us for a really long time.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

So helpful.

That is very, very helpful.

That's what I think is.

Yeah, I obviously I didn't, but I certainly appreciate it.

So I think there may be like the Thai water festival and the Indonesian festival where that I just got these bracelets and had some lamb was good.

Sure.

I I that actually makes so much more sense to me.

Thank you.

Um the nonprofit event part of this.

I can I can tell you that what will happen is these for-profit groups will just file nonprofit paperwork and do it under a nonprofit if that's how we go.

We've got if we want to do something that is going to help the businesses downtown, which I I don't know why any of us wouldn't want to do that.

Um as downtown goes, so goes the city.

As the city goes, so goes the county, blah, blah, blah, right?

So I don't I don't think any of us are trying to be difficult and not helping in some way, right?

I think the issue is anytime we put a law in place, we find what we've missed after the law is put in place, right?

And so what we need to do is ensure that we're covering everything possible ahead of time, and that we're ensuring that things like and again, uncomfortable with speaking at this point in time, but Soul Street needs to be we we need to encourage that.

Um we there there are a number of things that are maybe newer, which again that was my misunderstanding of heritage.

So there has to be a way that we do this that allows new events, because I do think that it's very important to allow new groups of people to also have a chance to do something on the creek while we protect the businesses.

How to do that is the hardest part of all of this, right?

Umprofit is not.

That's just not gonna do it.

Yeah, particularly from the aspect of because I'm looking at this 12,000 revenue, so it's not as if the city is accumulating accumulating revenue from this from these from these rentals.

Right.

So it's not as I'm sorry, go ahead.

The the primary rental fees along that section of the creek would be the amphitheater, which is 200 for city resident, 400 for non-city.

Um the larger creek area is 500 city, a thousand non-city, and then the entire creek area is one thousand city, two thousand non-city.

Um, you know, so it's not it's not a vast amount of of revenue now.

Does it even cover city services that are provided?

Yeah, it does.

It does, it does.

And then on top of that, the organizations are responsible for vendor peddler fees.

I can't speak 100% to those, but on so basically it's it's the park reservation, and then if they're having vendors or selling goods, then they have to get a vendor peddler fee, and they work with the permits office for that, and there's uh additional fees associated with that.

Okay.

Council Councilmember V.

Okay, Miss Ms.

Norman, we're gonna here's what we're gonna do.

Come on, come on, come forward.

Okay.

Go ahead.

Go ahead.

Okay.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak.

And I want to say thanks to all the businesses who came forward today.

Um, you don't intend to be this way, but this is stressful for them.

So I really really appreciate them taking care of the market.

Sorry.

This is very stressful for them to come before you.

So I really appreciate all of you showing up and doing that because it's hard.

Um I wanted to provide one little note on Bob's comment about how many vendor markets there are this year.

The partnership proactively rented nine additional dates, so that does affect that conversation.

So we intentionally came forward and paid for dates in order to ameliorate that issue.

As you all know, we survey our businesses annually.

And that's for 2024.

That doesn't include all the changes that have been alluded to to our economy in 2025.

But there are and so but the concern really is focused on these private vendor markets.

This conversation also is an anti-vendor, which we've already talked about.

The location of where the vendors are low are in downtown Frederick makes a big difference.

When the market is down on the creek, they do not.

We did look up some data for vendor markets.

It comes from Placer AI, which is a private company that does location analysis.

And we saw that there wasn't really a change in the total amount of traffic in downtown between vendor market and non-vendor market days.

But we did see a difference in where they went.

So foot traffic was higher on the creek and lower in the remainder of downtown by between five to eight percent on those dates.

This data isn't perfect.

It uses cell phones, so it's a guesstimate, but it gives you a sense.

So traffic can be down between 1,500 to 3,000 people in the remainder of downtown from what we're learning.

Um I will say that you know, we've heard and you've alluded to a little bit that sometimes people just want to go to the creek and not have it be an event.

So, in keeping with the park and rec commission recommendation, we're really interested in solutions that support that original purpose of the creek, protects the vitality of our downtown businesses, and really ensures access for nonprofits.

Um I will say that the new system that the city uses where you reserve everything in November works well for those of and in nonprofits that are established existing entities that know that they're going to do something in the year ahead.

It does not work well for those pop-up, and I think Councilmember Kazumchek was talking about what was new.

It doesn't allow well for that.

So that's a place where there could be a system that allowed for annual rentals as well as holding the remainder of the calendar to allow for as new nonprofit ideas come forward that they could have space on the creek.

Um so that's just something to consider.

And I believe council member Russell mentioned blackout dates.

All of the dates that we reserved are in the holiday season, and I don't think I need to tell you that the holiday season is important to our downtown business community.

We already have sailing through the winter solstice occurring at that same time.

So, in a way, we do have an event on the creek.

It's all those amazing boats and the thousands and thousands of people who come to see them.

I think that there's kind of a view that that could be the only event that we need in that season, and it can provide some support and kind of create a blackout for the holiday season.

So those are just some ideas to consider.

Thank you.

So obviously, staff has seen this and and had conversation about it, and um the parks and recreation commission um minutes certainly show that that they also have had conversation about this.

Um has there been discussion on a way to do this other than nonprofit versus profit.

We've not had specific conversations on what that could look like.

You know, obviously conversations have been had.

Umskara mentioned.

Um right now, the way the reservation process works, it's during that month of November, then reservations are granted, and then January 1st it opens back up, and then any open dates, people can reserve space on the creek.

So that would accommodate a new group who in April decides they want to do something, then they could get space on the creek if it was open.

Um we do our field reservation process on six month intervals.

So there's no reason we couldn't do the creek reservation on six month intervals.

Um, you know, there's a conversation we want to have to see how much leeway we would need.

Um right now we have that basically one month that it's open in November, reservations are made in December, knowing that there's not a lot of reservations that come in January, February.

Having that one month lead time for reservations in July and August wouldn't work, so we'd have to look at you know, maybe bumping that up.

But those are things that we could look at.

We'd be planning a little bit of catch up in the first year, um, you know, as far as open reservation windows, but I think that's an opportunity.

Um some other opportunities that that that we've looked at.

Um would we have explored the blackout dates?

Um, you know, so not having events on the creek.

Um some other options could be uh for profit, but then we're back to the definition piece, so that gets difficult.

But if we could define a certain group who would only be allowed X number of events, um so they couldn't come every other month and have an event on the creek.

Could they have one event on the creek?

Could they have two events on the creek?

Could they have one every six months?

You know, some some stuff like that.

I I I think the difficult part gets into the defining the groups, the for-profits, and technically, if you're not a 501c3 nonprofit, you're for profit.

Um we also have the eight groups that I referenced that are low, just individuals that don't have any business affiliation and they're renting it.

Where do they fall into the process?

I think there's there's answers, and we can define all these, but but these are the conversations that have to be had.

So the question is is really so you think that there are answers, and you think that we can define these, and I disagree with you.

And I would really like for our legal department to look into that because I don't think you can define those as easily as you're saying.

So maybe I'm a for-profit business, but I offer the ability to work with a nonprofit and give them a certain percentage of my sales that day, so the nonprofit uh makes the application.

The nonprofit is having it, yet we have a bunch of vendors on the creek that are paying this other person, and maybe the nonprofits getting 10% of the sales, but they're the ones that are there are a million legal ways to get around that.

Maybe not a million, but hundreds of thousands, I'm sure.

So uh I I just want I want to be sure that we do this right.

I want to be sure that the idea here is to protect the downtown businesses, because you all have the guts, and seriously, it's hard running a business.

I'm I it it's hard.

So, first of all, I never want you to feel uh like terrible for coming speech.

I have a tendency to say things maybe that I you know it's never against specific businesses.

My respect for business owners, especially those who have a place that they have to pay for, it's just it's immense.

And I truly do believe what I said before.

As goes downtown, goes the rest of the city.

We want everybody to be successful in the city.

I cannot support a nonprofit/slash profit way of doing this because it won't work.

So if I may, and I don't think I don't think we've reached any definitions or any any defining points, and that's kind of the point of just to give you some feedback.

So if I might make a suggestion, I'm kind of envisioning this as we did with the entertainment and restaurants uh conversation, which was a big which was a big change, where we convened a working group for a short period of time that had like legal staff, the somebody from a business community, somebody from the partnership, somebody from the nonprofit.

Sit down and work through what some of these ideas might be.

Come up with a set of recommendations, then to bring back to the board to contemplate.

And I would be happy to be that liaison.

And I would be interested in that approach, because I'll just share where I uh am right now.

And I know we have business owners in the room.

I've also talked to a number of business owners who um in the downtown quarter as well.

I'm at this time currently just in favor of just cult cultural festivals only.

And the reason why I say that is because similar to the comment that was made in regards to this these the use of the creek, the good intent has been unfortunately to the detriment of our downtown businesses.

And it's and it's an easy marketing tool because there's so much foot traffic, there's so much that takes place.

Yet our downtown businesses are s are sacrificing to be downtown, yet they're sacrificing their bottom line because of all these free marketing activities that are happening.

And they're and they're giving up, they're willing to give up so much.

And now until a point they said we can't give up anymore.

They've been giving and giving and giving, and now we're at a we're at a point where we can't just give any more because we we we're not going to be able to exist anymore.

So I'm more inclined to talk, not only just those in this room, but those I've spoken with as well in Northern Russell.

I'll I would be interested if there was a working group.

But there's some I'll just I'll just share.

I'm just interested.

I I'll just think to the downtown business to our community, cultural festivals only.

Nonprofits, as my colleagues say, there are, I mean, there's there's our Baker Park, there's gonna be Westside Regional Park, there's other avenues for our nonprofits to to be involved and to raise money as well.

But this time, due to the just the complications of it and their sacrifice is is challenged because it's it's sort of like how much how much are we asking to give up?

They they you know when it was was nonprofits, we'll give that up.

Nonfor-profit, we can't give that up.

We can't give up any more.

So it's sort of like what do we draw on?

Okay, for nonprofits, but there's downtown businesses are still hurting when they're still nonprofits there.

The cultural the cultural festivals are just I won't say I want to use this word, just great for our community, great for our surrounding areas, and I think I don't want to speak for them, but I think that may be the limit to they say, you know what, we'll we'll do this because it's good for Frederick.

Please, but please ask us to do any more.

And I understand it.

So I'll just share that.

And can I I'll just go back to the the last time that the board of aldermen discussed the vendor peddler ordinance back in 20 early 2000 or no, early tens, 2010 or 11, maybe.

It's been a while.

That's all right, Rachel.

It but but we talked about this, and I I I went back and watched it.

I remember distinctly, council member, that you and I absolutely agree that there should be we should not have retail sales in city parks until I asked you a question about a lemonade stand and we kind of went off the rails there, right?

But yeah, I mean I I think the the sentiment is that that this is a park that should be used for community benefit, and you know, I'm I'm on yeah.

I I am I am glad to hear that there is some thoughtful concurrence on the idea that our businesses downtown, while you know we tout them, it's thrive downtown's thriving.

Well, yeah, but you know, they're not getting rich, and some businesses are on the verge, and if we keep diverting foot traffic away from them, maybe they won't be here, maybe they won't be thriving.

So we we need to figure out what the solution is, whatever that looks like, um, to make sure that the mission of why we created that park is met and that our businesses are sustained and that our tourists and our residents can have a great experience and we can all thrive.

Yes, I I'm full support of that.

I'm in full support of having a a group of people with one of our city attorneys involved in the discussion.

Um conversations as to how to do this and do this properly and do this so that it does benefit the downtown businesses.

I'm gonna say um there are groups that may be doing things on the creek now that might not be able to do things on the creek in the future.

Um and um that's part of the conversation also.

Um I just think we need to be pretty careful.

It sounds to me, and I would love to hear not right now because that won't work, but um, I would love to hear from the businesses themselves.

Uh it sounded to me like most of your revenue comes on the weekend.

So if we are renting the creek out on a Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, maybe a Monday, maybe that's not such a big deal.

But it's the Friday, Saturday, Sunday that's the big deal.

Or maybe it's just a Saturday, Sunday that's a big deal.

Again, love to hear from you one way or another.

If that is so, do we need to have a conversation about the creek as a whole, or do we need to have a conversation about the creek Friday, Saturday, Sunday, or just Saturday, Sunday?

Or you know, how however that might be.

Um and then I want to be very clear.

So I didn't just make up the nonprofits last profit.

That's in our backup.

That that's what was proposed.

Um good to hear that we're thinking of other things instead of just that.

I absolutely think that's what we have to do.

I don't think we're ready to go anywhere yet.

And I'm I'm sorry that this is gonna take longer than some of you want.

Um doing things right takes longer than it takes longer than we want.

And but let's do it right and not just make a mess.

Well, to that taking longer than we want, uh I I think there's also a sense of urgency, because I'm I'm hearing, and we all know in terms of the economic time climate, we're also in that we can we can wait, but we can't wait.

And so to the extent um if if the will of this body is to council member russell for for us to convene a committee to look over this, I would um like us to put a timeline on that if we could with those recommendations and come back to this body so we can kind of move forward.

And and Vice President, maybe what we maybe what we want to do is put a halt right now on additional anything until that decision comes back, until we come back with something.

Yeah.

So we're talking about through the end of the year.

Yeah, right now reservation, someone could come in and register uh an application for a reservation through December 31st.

To be honest with you, I don't know.

I I I can look at the available dates.

Um the weekends would be the prime dates that people would be interested in.

I don't know how many of those are even available.

Um speaking to the timeline.

Um right now, it would be scheduled to open November 1st.

So it would be pertinent to have some guidelines prior to that.

We could push that back, um, knowing that there's not a ton of reservations that come in for January and February.

Um, you know, I I don't know how far we want to push that back or or hold reservations.

Um but but those are conversations that we could have.

Certainly.

January 1.

I think by the um I don't want to speak by the end of the year, I think.

At least there would be some type of guidelines or some type of feedback that we would receive, have some conversation around that.

I'm not can't I mean that would be yeah, I mean I'd I'd like to get to work quickly, so I would I would ask my colleagues if you think there's groups that you want representation on this group, then then suggest that.

And and I want to get to work and I'm I'm not one to mess around.

So I don't want this dragging out for months and months and months.

So today's um council member, so what's what's the deadline you need those um entities that want to be you would we could suggest maybe recommendate or suggesting recommendations or if in the next week that would be great.

And then I'll also need to talk.

Obviously, we could we need some staff support, so we'll need to talk with the executive's office.

I'm fine with that, Councilmember Kazimczek.

Again, I I I noted city attorney.

If the if we don't get a city attorney, an attorney, and an attorney needs to be involved in this conversation.

Well, I think the city attorney, one of the city attorneys should be involved in the case.

That's the same thing.

I don't want to speak for the city attorney, but I'm sure the city attorney can provide that support.

I feel confident that we'll have this the support that we need, yes.

I I agree with you.

I feel confident that we will also.

And in addition, if we were to make the decision that what's set in place now stays in place, and nothing else can happen, nobody else can rent until January 1 or December 31st.

Right.

Um can is that something that we have the ability to do?

And if that is the case, how would we go about that?

Because I would assume that we're this was this is something that would have to be brought to a vote.

I guess I guess the question would be also like who well, I don't know, that's probably two.

There's a legal question about whether that happens and then who who made the decision, Bob, in terms of internal policy of Number 1 being the day.

We didn't vote on that.

Right.

I mean basically we would close new reservation or new applications for Carroll Creek Lanark Park through the end of the year or until the next period opens.

I don't know the legal ramifications on that.

Well, our code says that permits will be issued on a first come first served basis, except where the deputy director finds that the public interest requires otherwise.

It doesn't specifically contemplate a situation where we just decide not to issue permits.

I think the public interest is been made clear here.

Yeah, but also it says that the Reputant Director has the has that capability.

Must be nice to be in Deputy Director, huh?

To make decisions.

Not anymore.

Cut it off.

No.

So does that does that mean, Rachel, that that we can't that that decision can be made, such as we're we're discussing here, not that it has to be, but just in terms of if that decision were to be made, does the deputy director have the authority to make that decision worth it is per view?

Well, there's not many open dates.

I'm thinking Bob and I should talk about that a little bit offline.

I can certainly speak with Rachel on that.

You know, like I like I had referenced earlier.

I don't believe there's that many open dates.

If any prime weekend dates, so it may be a rather moot point anyway, to you know to go ahead and do that because we're not closing them.

But Rachel and I can have that conversation.

That would be even better.

You can do nothing.

You gotta you gotta make a decision, Bobby cool.

There you go.

Okie dokie.

Any other questions, thoughts?

I just uh I want to appreciate all of you so much for coming and then for folks that that weren't able to come, then you're reflecting their interests as well.

Um I'm grateful to my colleagues for hearing this uh and understanding that there really truly is an impact, and I look forward to solving the problem in conjunction with a lot of people.

Thank you, um everyone.

Appreciate your courage today.

Uh no it's not uh not always easy.

Yes.

Sure.

You have the angle.

Yeah, I think that's a good idea.

Come for you come you come forward, please.

Please please feel free to come forward.

Sorry.

Um name and general address for the record, please.

Yes, sure.

Um sorry, the air conditioner was loud.

I I didn't catch when the comments ended.

Um you just put the microphone just a little bit closer to the other.

Yes, sure.

Um so my name is Michael McLaughlin, and this is my wife, not Shannon.

Uh and if anybody here was uncomfortable about being here today, imagine being on our shoes.

Um we are uh an L McLachlan.

And uh, you know, so we just wanted to come here.

Um our vendors asked us, um uh told us about the meeting and asked that we come here and and and and make our point.

Um, we we recognize that we are not considered a local business by the people in this room.

Uh but we are local business where we come from.

It's just us.

Um you know, our business is putting on events for vendors who are um who cannot or don't want to pay for retail space.

Um or or believe that uh consignment fees may be difficult or challenging to pay.

Fair or not, it's okay, right?

Um, many of our vendors live in Frederick in the city or at least the county.

Many don't.

Um to come in here and and do harm to anybody, any business in town.

Um, we're just people, just like everyone else in this room.

Uh we're not a monolithic corporation.

We don't have a high-rise building in Manhattan.

I promise.

I wish we did, it would be cool.

You'd all be invited.

Um we just live in a little rural community, right?

On the other side of the Maryland border in Pennsylvania.

We can walk to Maryland.

Um I work.

I actually work in Maryland.

My job is in Maryland, and we pay taxes in Maryland.

Um, you know, we're we're here because we enjoy doing what we do.

Um we're here today because our vendors asked us to come.

Uh and we're here today to let people know uh the businesses and and and members of this council and the city to know that we're willing and able to make concessions uh to make this less painful uh or make it not painful if we can, right?

We would like everybody to win.

Um we regularly walk along the creek and into town.

We we try um to check in on local business, some of the businesses that are closest to us.

We do have to run the events.

Um and we we we hear positive things from these businesses.

I know not everybody's with us, and I don't blame anybody for it.

Um but we're not, we just want everyone to know that we are just people.

We're not trying to take money from anybody or take it out of the city.

Uh we're doing our best to abide by the rules.

It can be very it's a very challenging thing to do to put on these events, but we enjoy doing it, and we do it for our vendors.

Uh one of whom is here today with us.

Uh we didn't prepare, we didn't prepare to come with more people.

Um, but uh we we did want to give her an opportunity to speak to if that would be okay.

Thank you.

Yeah, thank you.

Hello everyone.

Um my name is Natchanan, and I'm a part of the organizer.

Um yeah, like like he said, uh, we here to you know bring benefit to the community, and we don't want to do anything to do harm the community.

Um we respect all the negative effect that um uh some the business businesses have uh encounter and would like to do work something together.

Like I I feel like it should not be like uh all or nothing policy that blocks one out of the other, but we can work together like uh evaluate this bring crowd to the city, bring vibrant code together.

We support uh nonprofit local businesses, um micro businesses that cannot afford a brick and mortar stores, and um one um I have some suggestions that maybe we can work together with Dow Tau uh partnership, such as like uh advertising on social media, put some campaigns, um like um, you know, enjoy even on the creek and don't forget to shop downtown and put some sickness on our events.

Once we have the big crowd, we're gonna put people to walk around downtown.

So gonna be win-win situation.

Like this we're gonna have not just events from us, but other organizers too.

We would encourage other organizers to do the same thing.

Non-profit, profit.

I heard that some non-profit events also heard too, which um I feel like maybe we should all do together to bring our um help with uh Dowtow business set that feel like they have negative effect.

I think this should maybe something that we can consider to work together.

So you know, we can see Frederick as still vibrant city, bring all people from everywhere.

Uh Downtown can be busy again, and I think that's we'd be good for long term.

Yeah, and um yeah, so what we have done so far with uh from as one of the organizers, we also do um this cow for uh Dowtown businesses, um, young entrepreneurs who are under 18, free boot for uh nonprofit, um Asian American Frederick, it's one of our um organization that join us.

There are some more that I uh we can name, uh like Brunswick, school PTO, uh Animal Welfare League of Frederick, Morgan Carez and Connect Project.

These um organizations came here for free.

We provide free boot for them for the community.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Comments are noted, please.

And feel free also to put those if those comments were formalized.

You can formalize your comments and put those to us in writing as well, even with the with the clerk.

We'll be sure to enter those into the record.

So thank you.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you so much.

Appreciate it.

Sure.

Name and general address for the record, please.

My name is Yuni Sterner.

Can you turn the uh the press the button?

Uh where lights should come on.

Thank you.

My name is Yoni Sternner.

Um I'm one of the vendors.

I'm an artist, local artist here from Frederick.

I moved here seven years ago and I started small business.

I create art.

And it was hard for me to show Frederick what I do.

So I rely on in the media and start posting some of my art.

And the best thing people were telling me go to markets and show what you do.

So me trying to find markets in Frederick was very difficult because something that I didn't know, maybe everybody should know.

Once you are in the market, your emails get with them.

They keep sending that email every year to the same people.

So for new people to get into that email is very difficult unless somebody gets out that maybe a space and you get in.

So it was very difficult for three years.

I was struggling trying to get in markets in Frederick, and today reach out to me.

They say, We see your staff, you should come in here.

Great opportunity for me to exhibit.

I'm in the middle of both.

I know that they're making profit and they are making profit.

And when I go to the market, it's the only time that I actually do make profit.

Thanks to the markets, I'm able to hire two high school students to help me build these things.

Also, asking for 540, 30 percent of the profit, it's not manageable for me to sustain that.

So I do rely on for my small business and markets.

If the markets get closed.

What am I going to do?

Fire those two kids, know how it's business.

I would like to find a way that they can work together for us, the local artists in here that we want to provide.

I had tried to bring my staff to the stores, and I've been saying it's very unique, very beautiful, but we want 50%.

It's impossible to survive with the 50%.

It's just like no.

But if I sell $2,000 at their store, they take $1,000 from me.

So it makes it very difficult.

I do for my heart once to work with them, being able to have this.

I posted it in Facebook and a lot of business, Derby AR came to me and say, you can display your stuff in here for free on the walls.

And gave me just a tiny space to display stuff like that.

And I was so happy that they did that.

I had done exhibitions, so I'm official on artist in Frederick, but not being able to bring my products to the stores because of that.

So I do my business for a lios and marketing.

And I would love to you guys to come up with that.

I live in Lake Lingonor, and what they do is they allow all the business to come and do a market.

It's local for the Lake Lingano.

But what I would suggest to them, instead of going against maybe markets, they can take the 10 out and be part of the market too.

There's nothing that would stop them.

Bricks and motor to come to the market with the people and open a tent and sell their stuff.

Do a clearance.

Thank you.

That's a good idea.

Thank you.

Appreciate that those comments.

Those comments are noted.

Appreciate it.

And feel free if you can if you want to submit something to us, by all means, please do so.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you to everyone for your comments and for your presence today.

Anyone else before we close this item?

Thank you, everyone.

And as I shared when you uh brother uh Jared with your arrived to the microphone, we're walking a super slope here in terms of understanding your role here today.

Because the purpose of you being in this room was not for that item.

Copy that.

So okay.

So we and I and I think it's noted for all of our city employees, the caution of the super slope in terms of the slime because there's also a way in terms of our communication within the framework of you sharing that through your personal email to us or to this to the spot.

So I understand.

I I don't want to apologize because I don't think that's appropriate, but I I will say that I am still navigating the intricacies of that procedure.

First and foremost, I am a resident of the city, and in my off time, I serve a great many organizations, and the topic today was very relevant to that organization.

So but I understand you were what you were here in this room for that reason during city time.

Okay.

This just for that to be.

So next on our agenda item is resolution to adopt changes to the small minority and women-owned business enterprise programs in the city of Frederick Produce Powers.

I'm represented by Jared Bowen's business outreach cornered for the city of Frederick.

Thank you.

All right, good afternoon.

I am Gerard Bowens.

I am the um newly certified contract compliance administrator for the City of Frederick.

Uh we do have two proposals before council today.

Um out of respect for um uh someone who's here to offer public comment, I would like if it's okay to begin with the service disabled veteran-owned small business proposal.

Um, and so you should have that uh proposal in your backup.

Essentially, the proposal is to add a two percent service disabled veteran-owned subcont subcontracting goal to the city's current MWBE program.

So currently, just a brief review of our MWBE program is it a contract-by-contract goal setting program where we assign specific goals for minority and women-owned subcontractor participation on projects, let's say, for example, like our recent uh Frederick City Police Department headquarters project.

Um this proposal would add to that, whenever we do set those contract specific goals, we would add an automatic 2% goal for service disabled veteran-owned small business subcontractors on that project.

Um the the uh request for this program did come from public outcry.

Uh, I think about a month into my role here at the city, I received a call from a uh local business owner uh asking uh if we had such a program.

Um I was new to the role, so I I said I would do some research and and get back to them.

And it turns out that we do not, we did not at the time have such a program.

Uh with the city, I did further research and found that uh at the state level there is such a program, and many municipalities have very, very similar programs.

Um backup, you'll find um a copy of the state's veteran-owned small business enterprise program.

So I modeled very closely that program.

Um the state is actually at 3% currently, so I thought that 2% was doable for us.

Um I also included data.

The the way this would work would be very, very similar.

It would it would fall right in line with our current MWBE protocol.

So, in order for the subcontractors uh participation to count towards those goals, they would have to be certified and certified through the veterans small business certification program or vet cert.

Um if you look, there's a copy of the uh vet CERT search results.

Um this was just for the Maryland area and just for Maryland.

There are 1,899 certified small business owners through Vet CERT.

Um if you look further down the list, you will see that uh the vast majority of them qualify as service disabled veteran-owned small businesses.

So um we we chose the service disabled veteran-owned small business as a way to um you know benefit that specific veteran-owned small business community, those that were disabled during their service in some way, shape, or form.

And so that was the goal there.

Um a copy of what one of those certifications that would look like is also in your backup for Clark Computer Services, they would submit that paperwork to me for review and confirmation, and then as part of their MWBE participation plan, then their um subcontract award would be counted toward that goal.

So welcome any questions on that specific proposal.

Any questions, colleagues?

No questions?

No questions?

Excited about this.

Say again, we're excited about this.

All right.

I should say thank you, yes.

Yes, we're excited about that.

Thank you.

I believe if we're open to public comment, I believe Darren would like to come forward and offer a few words if that's okay.

Sure.

Thank you.

Name and general just for the record.

Business addresses five.

My name is Darren Clark.

Um I own Clark Computer Services and another company called Clark Building Technologies, and we support about 1,200 businesses here in Frederick County with IT support and installing technology.

Uh we're a mature company, and you know, really, as I was building this business, you know, it was a struggle at the beginning, and it was a struggle getting qualified to do work for things like construction jobs.

You know, really, you know, our competition is coming from Montgomery County, from you know, DC, larger businesses that you know it was just hard to qualify against.

And you know, I'm not really advocating for Clark Computer Services because we're a mature enough organization to now, you know, win work without the additional support.

But there's many small businesses out there that are owned by disabled veterans that you know are facing the same hurdles that I faced back in 2003 when I opened up Clark Computer Services.

And really what I'm hoping for is language where the they'll be allowed to have a more even footing from you know companies that are coming from outside of Frederick County to scoop up, you know, work like installing security cameras or you know drywall, you know, it where they're qualified to do the work, it's just that they can't compete with the past performances of you know these businesses that are coming from out of county.

And so really what I you know, I it's hard for me to imagine anybody against you know supporting service disabled veteran owned businesses.

And so I really, you know, what I appreciate is Mr.

Bowen's time here in you know advocating and and putting in the effort to get this in front of you guys.

And I appreciate the consideration that you guys are giving this because it's something that I think the veteran community in its entirety will welcome.

And you know, if there's any support that I can give, you know, as far as reaching out, you know, pulling disabled veterans together to give companies uh a list to you know work off of to you know get qualified, you know, contractors that are disabled.

You know, I'm willing to do anything that's you know necessary to help out.

And so I really just want to come here and give my support to Mr.

Bowens here and and also to thank you guys for just at least considering this.

Thank you.

Appreciate your comments, and thank you for your service.

Thank you.

All right, thank you.

And so, yes, then you know, I believe we have a draft resolution ready.

Um I'm um still getting familiar with next steps, but I will work with the legal team to see where we go from here.

Okay.

Well, what yeah, next item.

Okay.

Uh the next item uh proposal is um a proposal to revise the SBR program where it concerns formal solicitations and purchases over 50,000.

So just a brief review, our small business reserve program currently the way it's written reserves any and all purchases over 10,000 for bid and award only to small businesses.

My proposal is to change the way we do that.

In summary, I think we are doing this backwards.

I'll explain.

Um currently, like I said, every purchase currently over 10,000 is forbidden award only to small business, with exceptions.

We have exceptions for things like software, vehicle purchases, industrial equipment, chemical purchases, things of that nature.

Um we are also permitted through the purchasing policy to review every um uh purchase and where it either provides an undue fiscal burden for the city or where we suspect that there's not enough uh small business participation, we are able to exempt those purchases from the program.

Um I believe that we have a great program.

It's built on a solid foundation.

I believe where it concerns our formal solicitations, I would like to change the way we do that.

And instead of starting with every purchase included and then exempting the vast majority of them as we are currently doing, I would like to review each one of those formal solicitations beforehand to determine the small business availability and then include them in the program.

And I believe that this will produce a far greater outcome.

So where it concerns our purchases 10 to 50,000, we have a three quotes program that's working very well.

I don't want to touch that.

I think that's working well.

Um but you will see in your backup, um, and I put together a full color-coded spreadsheet.

This is every purchase over $50,000 that has come before council since I started here in my role up until about June 5th when I had to start pulling all of this data.

Um I I provided a breakdown or summary of this.

There have been 78 formal solicitations brought before City Council since September of 2023.

Fifty-eight of those required exemptions.

Fourteen of those were automatic exemptions, like I talked about, eleven were piggybacks.

So um that's a informal term that we use to describe writing on another municipality's contract.

Eight of those um piggyback contracts did end up with SBEs.

Thirty-five due to lack of qualified SBE bids.

Ten of those were also awarded to SBEs.

Eleven were part of our MWBE program.

So as I'm sorry, can you come back and explain that?

Yes.

So 35 were due to lack of qualified SBE bids, but of that 35, 10 were SBE?

I don't understand that.

Currently, the way the the way it's written is if we don't get three SBE bids, they have to apply for an exemption, which exempts them from the policy, and I think that's the part I'm trying to really address.

And I think that's the part I'm trying to really address.

Because even if we get one or two, and then I sign off on an exemption, we've exempted that purchase from the program, and it technically doesn't count.

I really should not be counting that towards our small business reserve spend when I report to council.

But as you can see, a great number of these exemptions are still going to qualified small businesses, right?

And so the way that I propose that we do this is instead of again signing off on countless exemptions that you see here, 78 or 58 exemptions.

Um that I review each one of those purchases, and if I see even one or two small businesses that we know will bid on these items, we include them and tag it for a small business reserve, and then we will not accept or score non-SBE proposals.

And we know that going in, we will tag that RFP in the title line.

I have uh representatives from our purchasing department here.

They've been part of the team uh that we've been reviewing and talking about these items for uh quite a while now.

Um, and so we would put that right in the tagline.

We've started doing that already with our MWBE RFPs so that bidders know ahead of time.

This RFP has MWE goals attached to it.

We would do the same thing with our SBR program.

We would tag those in the title line.

We would also um uh you know put the language in the RFPs.

I've included a couple examples of that from like you know, Depart uh District of Columbia, uh some of the Emma solicitations that you can see right up front, it says this purchase is reserved for small business entities only.

And then we know that going in, and that that stops um that lets large companies know that this proposal is not for you.

We we are not gonna score your proposal, we're not gonna count it, we're not gonna review it.

Um, and again, like I said, I think right now what we're doing is we're signing off on these exemptions, but we are still accomplishing the goal, right?

A lot of these solicitations are going to small businesses, but we've exempted them from the program just given the way that the program is currently written.

So far, only seven solicitations have met the actual criteria the way the program is currently written.

Only seven in two years.

I I just I don't think that's follows the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish.

So I think this review process will allow me to review, which I'm I'm already really doing.

I'm just doing it backwards.

If I can review up front, make a recommendation to our committee.

We have a committee that includes myself, our manager of equity inclusion, our manager of budget and finance, and our purchasing team, the project manager or the or the city staff member who's you know attempting the purchase, say, look, this I feel like this meets the criteria.

I feel like there's enough small businesses that can do this work.

If they all agree on that, then we formally tag it as SBR, and and hopefully I think that will really improve the numbers here on this page.

I hope to be able to come back to you next year with far greater SBER participation numbers.

Questions?

Thank you.

Any questions?

So I think I get the idea.

I think I agree with the idea.

Um the only issue that I'm trying to figure out is so you're talking about a group of you making the decision as to whether or not there are enough SBEs to even work on the job at all, right?

Correct.

Um and how do you make that decision?

Research.

It's the the same research I'm doing now.

For example, there's one item on here that was the um pool maintenance or pool services contract, right?

So when um you know uh Mr.

Poolin was here earlier um from Parks and Rec, he called me ahead of time.

He said, I'm getting ready to put this RFP out.

Uh I know that there's a small business requirement.

I called about nine pool companies in the in the regional area.

There aren't that many.

Um I asked for their vendor information sheets.

I asked we determined the size of the company based on the small business administration size standards for their particular NAICS code.

Um, and so we made the determination that there were no small businesses, there were no pool companies that could handle the scope of work.

The main the main problem with that one was staffing, right?

For the various pools.

There were there were small companies that could come out and do the lab testing or the pH level or you know, some of the smaller maintenance requests, but the staffing for the lifeguards was the big issue, and that was the determining factor of the capacity of a small pool company versus a large one.

And so that was a determination I made that we really didn't have the right number of small business entities that could handle that scope of work for that particular purchase.

And so I signed off on the exemption after I did that work to exempt that purchase from the small business reserve program and allow him to move forward with a large company.

But might might it not have been better in that particular case to divide that up into a pool cleaning company and a pool providing support company.

That's that's that's that's another idea that I plan to bring before council, which is the idea of unbundling some of our larger contracts.

You will you will see that in my annual report.

Uh that's a whole separate and larger conversation.

Fabulous because again, that'll be part of my review process, right?

Is looking at that purchase ahead of time, seeing whether it's something that we can uh accomplish with you know by unbundling or breaking that contract up, or if it's again the wastewater treatment plant centrifuge bowl, right?

That's a very highly specific and large piece of equipment that we cannot just buy from a small business down the street, right?

And so when I take a look at that, uh I'll know right away based on the availability whether or not you know we can include it in the program.

Yeah, I I love the idea of ensuring that we're counting everything that should be counted.

Um it's actually good to see your numbers here.

Um I I want to ensure that we are not this is a way for us to get better at ensuring that small minority out like that we're providing contracts to the businesses we want to provide or giving them an uh a benefit at least.

Um so I just want to be careful how we do this.

Of course.

Um, but the information that you've provided is really really interesting.

I would not have thought any of that.

So thank you for that background.

Absolutely.

I think this is going to be a way too, especially if we are able to separate out those MWBE projects.

We we will still be able to do our capacity building programs to ensure that our small businesses are able to act as prime contractors.

I think that's in the spirit of the program.

We want to see those small business owners act as prime contractors on these larger construction jobs.

Uh, once we assign MWBE goals, they're going to be responsible to hit those numbers and make sure they're participating.

But when we look at a project like FPD uh or some of these other large projects, I think the way the policy is written right now, we would have to completely cut ties with any vendor in our registration system that is not a small business.

And I don't know that that's how we move forward with the work of the city, right?

But the current way the policy is written, that's what that means is that we technically should not be accepting or scoring any bids from businesses that are not small.

And so I I don't know that that's a good way forward.

I think this revision allows us the flexibility to decide which jobs we're going to involve our large business partners and vendors on and which jobs uh have enough SBE availability that we can we can reserve those specifically for those companies.

You you you're coming back with your annual report in October, November?

Yes, that's what I'm shooting for.

I'm shooting for a very in-depth annual report um in October.

Um, and I I plan to cover the last three fiscal years to show growth of the program.

Thank you.

Any other questions?

Any other questions?

Um I think there's been a motion made for us to move this item to a public hearing.

Is there a motion?

So moved.

Second.

Motion by council member Kazimczek, seconded by councilmember Russell.

All those in favor.

Motion carries scheduled to a um for scheduled to a public hearing near you very soon.

Thank you, sir, for your work.

Appreciate your report today.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you as well.

Thank you.

As well.

Uh Council Member Commons.

Councilmember Russell.

Councilmember Kazimchak.

No comments from the chair.

The government operations committees is an adjournment to the same meeting.

Let's call it.