Good evening.

Welcome to the March 26, 2026 hearing of and workshop of the Frederick Historic Preservation Commission.

Before we get started, there's copies of agenda over by the door on the table by the door, as well as the sign-up sheet.

If any member of the public wishes to speak, be helpful to have your name just to make sure the record is correct.

If anybody has any problem hearing throughout the hearing tonight, just you know raise your hand or speak to Tanzy Brockenberry over here on the side.

She can uh help you out.

The uh technical qualifications of the commission and the staff are on file with the City of Frederick and are made a part of each and every case before the commission.

The Frederick City Historic Preservation Commission uses guidelines adopted by the mayor and city council and the Secretary of the Interior Standards for Rehabilitation published by the U.S.

Department of Interior National Park Service, and these guidelines are made a part of each and every case.

All cases were duly advertised in the Frederick News Post in accordance with Section 301 of the Land Management Code.

For introductions tonight, um I'm Paul Fitzgerald, Chairman, serving here tonight along with Vice Chair Ann Hart, Commissioners Eva Saller, uh Ed McMahon, Carol Kelly, uh Jerry DeYoung, and Charlie Kinsey.

For the city staff, we have Division Manager of Historic Preservation Planning, Christina Martin Koske, Historic Preservation Planners, Sarah Hoffadetz, Assistant City Attorney Iris Annan, and our administrative assistant tonight is Tansy Brockenberry.

All applicants and authorized agents and members of the public who wish to speak tonight must be sworn in.

If you would please stand as you are able if you're representing a case tonight.

Very good.

Moving on to the agenda, are there any announcements?

Yes, I have two announcements.

One, a reminder to the public that April 1st is the deadline for historic preservation tax credit applications.

If you think you might qualify or have questions, please uh reach out to the planning department uh for some more information.

Also, April 13th, the City of Frederick in partnership with Plumundan Hospitality Partners and the Maryland Room at the Cebur Arts Library will be holding our seventh annual digging local event.

This is in celebration of Maryland Archaeology Month.

Um be at 6 o'clock at the CIBAR Arts Library in the community room.

It's going to be a special evening where we'll be discussing about the archaeological uh studies that have been uh taking place at the um Frederick Hotel Conference site, which historically served as uh the Byerley Tannery, so it should be an interesting night.

That is it.

Okay, thank you.

Nothing from Sarah.

No grab announcements.

Moving on to approval of the minutes.

Commissioners, any corrections or additions.

Corrections, if I may, please.

On the meeting minutes under approval of minutes from February 26th.

Just a correction spelling of Ann Hart and with an E on all three instances.

With that modification, I move that we approve the minutes from both the hearing and workshop of March 12th.

Oh, it's on uh yeah, the workshop minutes, the third bullet down, the third third line, and the third bullet should say to make the windows full size, not full size.

What case is this?

I'm sorry.

What case?

This is uh under comments on the workshop minutes.

Third bullet down third, the last line.

It's uh HPC 267.

Okay, HPC 26-7 uh dash 26.7.

Thank you.

See it.

Yeah.

Oh and I'm getting some requests that we be mindful of our microphones.

I know they're new to us, but I don't think it's capturing everything we're saying.

Just uh restate it to include all corrections.

I will move to approve the meeting minutes for both the hearing and workshop with both sets of corrections.

Second the motion.

In favor of approving the workshop minutes and the hearing minutes for the uh March 12th meeting date.

Raise your hand.

Five, seven.

Seven to zero, not used to having a full house.

Thank you.

Seeing no HPC business consent items or continuances moving forward into the cases to be heard.

Presuming there's no other HPC business.

Right.

First case on the uh hearing HPC 26-7, 248 South Carroll Street, and that's Ms.

Hafadetz.

Thank you.

I'd like to enter the whole staff report into the record.

This as this application concerns the proposal for a new two and a half story dwelling with a detached garage located in the rear.

This application has been uh reviewed several times at workshop.

So I'm gonna go ahead and move forward to staff comments.

Um the application has been updated to reflect new product literature, updated drawings, and a scope of work.

For location, setback, and plot plan, the proposed two and a half story and garage new construction reflect similar locations, setback and plot plan as seen along Carroll Street.

The detached garage sat at the rear of the property will be accessible from a front entry asphalt driveway.

Per the guidelines, driveways must not run from the street unless it is common feature in the neighborhood.

The proposal of a front entry driveway will not be dissimilar to the surrounding neighborhood.

For footprint massing height, scale, and form, the proposed new construction will not appear dissimilar to the neighboring properties in terms of footprint massing height and scale and form facade openings and articulation.

The drawings have been updated to reflect the alteration of the south elevation windows on the dwelling and the relocation of the garage window to the north elevation.

As discussed, a workshop the commission and staff were in support of increasing the size of the windows on the south elevation and shifting the garage window.

For materials, some of the newly listed materials need to be revised so they articulate their accurately match the actual materials proposed for each part of the building.

Additionally, the applicant must submit detailed product l product information for all proposed materials to ensure clarity and compliance.

The applicant is proposing fiberglass doors on the rear and garage, while fiberglass doors may be acceptable in the rear portions and in the context of new constructions.

The applicant will need to provide the product literature for those doors.

The product literature for the rear wheeling system and front columns have been updated to reflect a composite railing and columns.

Per the guidelines, alternative material may be may be appropriate.

The proposed railing will feature a traditional profile as supported by the guidelines.

The materials listed on the drawings reflect all proposed materials rather than a limited list of what is proposed on each elevation.

This leads to confusion of what material is proposed for the front elevation compared to the back.

The applicant will need to clarify the drawings and limit the materials to what is proposed for each elevation.

Staff finds no inconsistencies with the re when referencing the design guidelines for the following materials.

A wood four light front door with transom, a light fixture of 11 inches in height, HVAC unit, wooden flat panel garage doors, and mahogany decking.

For the driveway and landscape, the plan includes a modest setback with landscaping located around the front and side of the building.

A driveway is located to the south and provide a vehicular access to the garage.

There is a modest amount of green space in the side and rear yards.

For decks, decks are not supported by the guidelines.

However, they are they are not allowed on new they are allowed on new construction projects where the work is limited to the rear of the property and not highly visible.

Staff notes that the applicant received previous approval for a deck on a new duplex construction along South Carroll Street.

Staff recommends the commission approve the application with the condition that the following items are submitted for staff level review and approval prior to any permits are issued.

Product literature for the fiberglass stores for the rear and garage doors.

An updated drawings clarifying the materials proposed for each evolution elevation.

And with that, I'll take any questions.

Any questions for staff commissioners?

I had one question.

Was there a grill option specified or presented?

I'd have to take a look, but that might be about the looks like the options are what they call full divided light, what others would call simulated divided light.

And there seem to be two or three other options for uh fibrics or Anderson 100 series, but I think we just want to clarify that on any uh approval motions.

If it matters, the scope of work does say simulated simulated different number of levels.

There we go.

So there's a number of levels on the Anderson windows, and we specified in there which one it's so it's simulated divided light, but it does have a internal spacer.

So it gives the appearance of a full divided light.

Well, they're listening that as a full divided light.

They're with their list of simulated divided light does that not have the spacer in it.

But first, if there's any other questions for staff, commissioners.

Mr.

Hambery, if we want to stay there and introduce yourself for the record.

Ron Hemby.

I represent Mr.

Troud who decided to show up tonight.

It's about time.

Do you have any questions, comments regarding the staff report?

Other than what you've already done.

Yeah, I don't think so.

Okay.

Yeah, well, I think just like a clarification, looking at their options, and they don't apply to all Series 100 windows.

What they're calling a simulated divided light, it looks to me, does not have an internal spacer.

What they call a full divided light, which I think other manufacturers would call a simulated divided light as the spacer in between.

They do have a nice it's not included the packet, but they do have a nice promotional document that outlines all the options.

Yeah, in our scope, we are saying the full divided light in the scope of work.

So I think just to be clear, we would add that to any motions.

And to me that's an issue.

It is on the composite rails.

It's kind of hard to find that.

Yeah, although uh as we noted for uh timber deck tech does have one uh style that has concealed fasteners, and there's another uh manufacturer I've used before with RDI railing uh that has a nice profile with uh hidden fasteners and uh I don't know to me we can discuss it further when we get get get back up here, but to me the the railing design is doesn't look that great with the exposed brackets, but it looks more uh like a vinyl.

I mean I think they all are similar price, so I don't mind switching to like the RDI or whatever.

Okay.

All right, if you want to have a seat temporarily, any other members of the public here tonight wish to speak on this application.

All right, seeing none, commissioners that's back with us.

Oh now you guys feel on the railing design the the data submitted doesn't really show the brackets, but if you look online you can see more of the uh the actual brackets or um that support the rail versus uh concealed bracket or concealed fasteners, which there are some manufacturers out there that provide a more of a concealed application, so they hear any comments specifically on the railing profile.

Maybe I'll go back to staff as far as hidden concealed fasteners.

I know uh even the term composite seems to be changing these days where more manufacturers are calling composite materials doesn't really have any natural wood fibers in it as it used to, and maybe that's a good thing, but it kind of defeats the purpose of simulating a uh a wood profile deck system if there's really no organic material in it.

Uh I was reading there looking at adding minerals to it, but you know what types of minerals doesn't really say.

So I think the definition of composite may be changing, and maybe it's something we address in our guidelines at some point, but um, it it is I can't think of any railing system that uh a composite that we looked at that had exposed brackets.

I I think you're right.

My my recollection is specifically on that newer development on North Bend Street and Six.

Um they have a lot of front porches, and that was a big discussion point was not to have any exposed hardware.

And also um even when you look at metal fencing, that's have been a been a point of conversation with the commission that it has it more like a traditional cast iron look rather than seeing all distracted by all the exposed hardware.

So that that is definitely a design consideration that the commission has applied before and even the other railing manufacturer I mentioned, RDI railing, they have a transform series instead of composite, they can call it composite care.

But even then it has a protective acrylic cap on top of it.

Now I'm not sure if t TimberTech has a protective acrylic cap, but I know we had discussions before about you know something that's capped is not necessarily in the guidelines either, so um but finding a nice composite railing with concealed fasteners is limiting if well commissioner approaches this discussion from the microphone question.

Isn't it on?

It's on a move.

Sorry to hear you I'm uh addressing this question in terms of uh staff and commission uh familiarity with the technical details of the items under discussion.

Um I will be frank and uh admit that I have uh limited familiarity with the distinctions which are being addressed by members of the commission and the staff regarding the character of these uh uh limitations or expectations regarding the um railing um uh my general question is at what level uh do these um uh questions uh get resolved in um conversations, discussions like the one that is uh uh uh continuing right now in the uh commission meeting.

The simplest solution is to get a consensus whether or not that the commission wants the hardware to be concealed and then just add that as a condition to the approval that product literature showing uh a composite rail system with concealed hardware submitted for staff review and final approval.

That's probably the best way to go about it.

And in terms of the best way I can understand that, but in terms of general overall direction, what does it mean in terms of interpreting further um uh presentations of this uh situation?

Where where is that resolved?

How is that how is that resolved?

At the staff level or the commissioner relevant?

Correct.

So um if you put in your language that's for staff level review and approval.

Ron's very familiar with this process where he simply submits a minor modification form, it updates the initial approval with those final details.

Staff's gonna be looking for product literature that specifically shows the installation details and that it's hidden hardware.

It's process, it's uh that minor modification approval is sent out, and so when the applicant moves forward with a permitting process, they add the original HPC approval, and then any other modifications or any other of the conditions that the staff or the commission required that all has to be lined up and submitted as part of their permit.

They miss anything, they're not going to be able to get a permit.

Where is that decision made by you?

Staff level.

Why does it come to the commission?

This this project in the whole is well beyond the administrative authority given from the commission to staff.

Why is it beyond the level?

Um the administrative authority is outlined in our rules and policies.

It can be changed.

We can always update things to make things more eligible for staff level review or less eligible for staff level review.

Um but new construction would never according to our current regulations be approved by staff.

Wouldn't the uh overall uh format of historic preservation be constructed to prevent decision making about this subject being made by somebody without the knowledge to the technical knowledge as I have do not have to participate in that decision making?

Why does it literally come to me as a commissioner?

So you do meet certain technical qualifications beyond this commission in general, and then you get further training, we're planning one up in April.

Um and then this commission, this board gets to decide what that staff level review is or not.

It hasn't been updated since I think 2015.

It's been a while, so it it is something that I've been looking at as something that could be refreshed.

You've got you've got an Ashanou in your on your commission.

You have me.

And and I am personally uncomfortable with making decisions that require the technical expertise, not only of the staff, but of fellow commissioners who have the qualifications to make those evaluations and decisions.

And are you talking specifically of the railing?

Yes.

Well, the railing is the subject has brought it to my attention.

The railing, I mean we all have master's degrees and are very comfortable with you know interpreting um drawings and product literature and making sure that the hardware is interior rather than on the exterior of the the railing.

And why do you bring this to the commission?

I I I asked that in a fairly assertive mode, obviously.

Yeah.

Why do I have to have help you make that decision?

You're reviewing the level one, level two application and any other details that aren't quite complete or clear.

You can either deny the application, continue it, or if there's small details like a railing that you feel comfortable that staff can process, you make that a condition for staff level review.

But doesn't that seem uncomfortable to the people who are presenting this application to the commission that somebody without any expertise represented by me would be involved in that decision?

Your only decision is whether or not you want the hardware inside or outside.

Inside or outside.

Do you want it exposed or not exposed?

That's that yeah, that is simpler.

Yeah.

And and it's your it's your um charge to make that distinction clear to me.

You won't have to see it again.

If you can if if the determination is the commission that you trust us to review the product literature, then we review it administratively.

Application comes in, we look at it, we process it, it goes in and out fairly quickly.

So it's a major project, it's new construction, which is the primary reason why it's coming to us.

Um this is a small detail of a major project.

So we need to decide whether we want interior fasteners or exterior fasteners.

And is it that small a decision for us as commissioners?

Absolutely.

Yes.

It's pretty easy.

Okay, I understand.

In general, I mean the guidelines talked about railing and material appropriate materials.

There's other uh areas of the guidelines talks about materials itself.

Yeah in general.

Wood is good.

If it was wood it's you know, except if it's an inappropriate profile, you know, of course there's maintenance as you advocate with the introduction of more modern contemporary materials these days, of course, more synthetic materials are being introduced.

And on the other end of the spectrum is vinyl or PVC, which we specifically do not allow in almost or in all instances.

So then there's this middle ground, a composite material, which is probably 70 percent, 80 percent vinyl PVC, but then they put in enough wood fibers or other organic material, so the call it's a composite.

They press it together.

So that has the look and feel and the shape profile of a traditional wood railing.

But obviously, as presented here tonight, some of those composite railing systems have concealed fasteners, and some of those composite railing systems have exposed or external fasteners, which you know part of our debate here is determined if either one is appropriate or something more akin to a concealed fashioner system, like you would see in a traditional wood railing is appropriate.

And is this a very ingenue statement to make, but is the evaluation, the decision making in that process that you've described dependent upon me, or can I get the direction that I need for that decision from the staff?

So if the condition is such that you're just saying with product literature to be submitted for review and approval by staff.

It's not brought up to the commission again.

It's just reviewed and approved by staff.

And we have a special form for us to document that we are approving the small detail of a much bigger project.

Okay.

I think I understand.

And I hope that my fellow commissioners understand not only my confusion, but my point in discussing that confusion.

Well, I'll just note that a lot of us have different experience and different levels of understanding.

And I think part of the benefit of the commission that there's so many of us is that we can discuss these details and help each other understand something that isn't clear.

Um just to back up Commissioner Fitzgerald's point, there is it is very obvious when the fasteners are obvious on the railing that it's not a real wood railing, that it's a, you know, I think we can all agree to that statement.

So I think it makes sense to add that condition to the to the motion, but I don't think that it's something out of the ordinary for us to discuss as part of the decision making.

No, no, I'm I'm not really questioning the um importance of discussing it, particularly because as you describe it, it's relevant to the appearance of the uh of the historic structure, but uh it is a question of where it's decided by staff or by commission.

And there's areas where it's helpful for us to give staff direction, saying, well, this is a composite railing.

Well, it happens to have you know exposed fasteners, and that isn't clear in the uh product data that was submitted, uh, unless you look real closely or looked online and zoomed in or did additional research from the manufacturer to see the actual installation details.

And again, the composite material is something we generally only look at for new construction.

If it was renovation, we would almost always uh go toward a more traditional wood.

But since this is a new construction, we do allow uh different more modern materials to a point.

And my point is concealed or exposed fashioners on on the in this case.

So I would like to speak to them you know, from my role as a commissioner, which is I am sensitive to the uh both the developer and the owner and the applicant's uh interest in doing whatever he or she feels is appropriate for the construction of this new facility, and um this question of whether exposure or non-exposure is to be decided one way or the other, um, is relevant to that person, I assume, because the application includes the choice between an ex you know an obvious or a non-obvious uh uh feature of the of the construction and the construction is what we are evaluating here.

Um if we are evaluating it in such precise and and specific terms, I would assume it matters to the person who is making the application who didn't just say as he or she evaluated what they would present that it would be uh uh obvious or non-obvious uh railing uh exposure.

Um is that clear?

I'm sorry, I'm not making it all that clear in my language.

And if you are uncomfortable or feel like you are or lacking the information, you can abstain from the vote.

But I but to pursue my point, I I question and hopeful uh hope for a response from the the applicant about why we as the commission are considering this choice, the choice between an obvious and a non-obvious feature.

Well, uh Mr.

Hold on.

Uh this is commissioners discussion here now, and I don't want to continue this discussion really and for any further.

Sure, the the owner has you know the right to present whenever they want to present.

Uh part of our goal here provision is to also represent you know the public citizens as a whole, and we do that through this commission and trying to follow the guidelines and staff's uh recommendations.

So I mean certainly you know there's applicants of all sorts, and you know, some will you know choose only wood, and some will you know in this case a composite material, but in my view the the composite material fastening system is a uh point of concern and you know the applicants seem to express a uh openness to consider other railing options, and you know if it's not a big concern to us, then uh we can stay that if it is a big concern, and you know it's a minor detail, but it makes a big difference, particularly on a railing system.

Uh when you see those exposed fasteners, you know it's not a real um wood railing system or even a composite system that's you know made to look like a more traditional railing system, but I think you know without going back and forth just need to stay here with the commission, but I think that's just uh the basis for a discussion here.

Anybody else have any microphone's not working here?

It's not a good idea.

Do you have another microphone, Tancy?

It's not working.

I are you ready to entertain a motion, Mr.

Chairman?

I have another comment to make if I may.

So in addition to the railing, I just want to be clear about the windows.

Um looking at the product literature.

If I'm looking at the 100 series that matches the scope of work, the full divided light option appears to be what we're looking for, right?

It has the energy spacer bar in between the grills.

You are correct.

Yes, you are correct.

Yes, ma'am.

Okay, so I just wanted to go back to that in addition to the railing.

So uh I'm sorry you brought that up because uh you know, to me, full divided light is old wooden sash, individual panes, and the it's like we were talking about with composite uh railings, that it's a marketing thing where they're changing the nomenclature.

I have uh in my dining room, Anderson 400 series.

What I bought, you know, the very fine windows that at that point in time it was called simulated divided light with spacers.

And so um I guess they're now marketing the 100 series as full divided light, even though 400 series are listed both as full divided and simulated divided.

That's why I brought that attention.

That 100 series, we would be looking for full divided light.

Right.

But traditionally full divided light was separate panes of glass.

Understand that, but not as Anderson product literature.

Yeah.

So uh no, but I I agree with you.

We're looking at something that two separate full panes of glass with muttons on the inside and the outside and with spacers inside.

Yeah, I think you know any uh motion if if we were to approve that should include the definite as defined by Anderson windows, a f full divided light as defined by Anderson windows since it's not truly uh full divided light.

And I think any uh questions on the railing should always include wood as an option if we approve the composite, but wood would also be an option as well.

Is there any other comments, discussion?

Motion I'm prepared to make a motion.

Which I don't normally do.

Mr.

Chairman, familiar with the property at uh what is our property?

248 South Carroll.

248 South Carroll.

I'm familiar with uh HPC 26.7.

26-7.

Uh I find the project is compatible with the character of the district.

It's consistent with the Frederick Town District Town Historic District design guidelines with respect to all elements including um railing with concealed fasteners and uh windows with uh full divided light uh design by Anderson uh 100 series.

And therefore I move to approve the application.

Did you want staff to review the details of the windows and the railing system?

Uh all conditioned upon staff approval of the windows and the railing systems.

Would you add to if you agree the other two statements if you could add those that are in the staff recommendation for product ledger and drawings?

Yes.

Uh further provided that uh incorporating uh staff level review and approval for product literature for the fiberglass doors for the rear or rear of the structure and the garage doors, updated drawings, clarifying the materials proposed for each elevation.

And I think that would be it.

Okay, is there a second?

Second the motion.

Thank you.

Okay, a motion made and seconded to approve the application with uh conditions.

Uh for additional discussion, you know.

We don't like to put out project names.

We did mention TimberTech.

I believe their series is either a classic composite series or something similar.

The other railing system, I mentioned RDI railing, the system called transform as a profile with hidden fasteners that the applicant may investigate further.

And you know, certainly there's only two.

There may be others that the applicant would want to explore and present to staff for review.

Any other discussion.

All in favor of the motion to approve with conditions, please raise your hand.

Motion carries seven to zero.

Thank you.

And thank you for the lively discussion.

Thank you, Mr.

Henby and Mr.

Tratt, good to see you.

Thank you.

If I may say one thing, this was a really nice wedding present for Mr.

Trot.

Sunday.

Nice.

Congratulations, Tom.

Good thing you didn't lead with that.

And that is Ms.

Hoffident's again.

It's a hoff at its party tonight.

Uh I'd like to enter the whole staff report into the record.

This application concerns the proposal to remove the fiberglass window alterations to the square tower on the and Queen Anne style dwelling and replacing materials.

This application was previously workshop, so I'm going to move forward to some staff comments.

The applicant is now proposing to remove the fiberglass windows from the square tower featured on the Queen Anne South Dwelling and reinstate with siding trim windows and architectural features.

Updated photographs directing the location of where the replacement would flap siding, diamond feature, and wooden windows will be located.

As discussed in the previous workshop, the commission were in support of keeping the single pane window or replacing it with a one over one double hung wood window.

The applicant has altered the application from for the two wood windows proposed for the third floor.

The windows on the south and east elevations are to be 32 by 36 single hung wood windows.

The applicant states that this is the original size of the window.

As previously discussed at workshop, the commission and staff were in support of the original size window being reinstated and with the open and and was open to the window being a double hung or single hung window.

The applicant states that the half timbers are to be reinstated.

However, it's unclear the material that is being proposed per the guidelines.

The most appropriate material would be a true wood half timber.

General comments, staff does not know any inconsistencies with the proposed materials when reviewing the guidelines.

Cedar single lab siding, cedar or mahogany wood wood window trim, mahogany and cedar wood sills and pillow traditional wood single hung windows.

Staff recommends the commission approve the application with the condition that the half timbers are a non-pressure treated wood and that the final tower design replicates the 2021 National Register Photograph, which documents the historic design of the property before any alterations took place.

And with that, I'll take any questions.

And I would like to make a note that the uh 2021 national photograph that I have in here decided to be very blurry.

You have to pay a subscription fee to see it, okay?

Um but I will enter that into the record whenever with my approval documentation.

And the clear image was previously submitted and is already on the record.

So I just want to make sure that that's not new information that nobody has.

It's it's already out there.

Ms.

Hoffman, it's for the um for the record.

You read uh the south and east elevations are to be 32 by 36, but it's written 32 by 68.

So I just want to be clear that it's okay.

Thank you.

And regarding that uh 2021 National Register image, it does show on that second floor the two larger double-hung windows.

And I believe your report said it the uh the applicant would like to keep the 32 by 34 or 32 by 36 fixed window.

Uh whereas last uh workshop we discussed keeping that, but then we kind of at the end, at least I uh had moved more towards replacing those with what's shown more in the 2021 National Register.

Um in your recommendation, you you talk about uh the final tower design replicates the 2021 National Register photograph.

So I guess if we'd either do that or have to make a condition to approve keeping the fixed window as it is.

Correct.

Any other questions for staff, commissioners?

I have a comment for uh maybe Mr.

Weinstein uh with the appropriate time.

All right.

The applicant would come forward, please to the podium.

And introduce yourself for the record.

Make sure the microphone is on.

And I believe he needs to be sworn in.

If that's okay.

I should know this by heart.

But you solemnly swear or affirm that responses given and statements made in this hearing for the historic preservation commission with the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

So answer I do.

I do.

State your name.

Ryan Weinstein.

Do you have any comments on the staff report?

Um I would just probably state that I think there was some confusion around the half timbers, and I would just be uh moved to suggest either mahogany or cedar for those.

Or whatever the commission would prefer.

And on the second floor windows, we got the fixed windows there now.

We had discussed changing them back to what the original more to the original photograph with the double-hung windows.

Do you kind of as we talked about in workshop?

Could kind of uh could certainly go either way.

I just was more inclined because the we we actually had the the original sash that was part of the historic fabric.

So kind of almost preferred that it is the way it sits now too, conveniently.

But any other questions for the applicant, commissioners.

Uh just the one uh apologies, Mr.

Weinstein.

Um totally not apropos of historic preservation, but uh looking at that tall tower, it just struck me that that could be a great uh passive uh ventilation system in the summertime, you know, with it channel up uh hot air.

Uh I don't maybe there's not easy way to accomplish that.

I was just curious.

It's uh that's a good point.

Um actually we have plans at some near future date to do some work in the the attic that's currently far below the the insulation codes of today and and obviously in tightening the house up, we want to think about indoor air quality and and ventilation.

So that's something that um could come at some future things.

We're actually already having an application submitted for workshop for an addition on the back of it too.

So there's some things going, hopefully all good that the commission is.

Like I said, has not much to do with historic preservation, but sure.

Thought it might be another point feature to take advantage of.

Yep.

Thanks.

Um my question would be as it was at the previous workshop.

Uh to what extent is the design and the product of the of the tower the result of a uh an artistic design um motivation?

Um I'm not quite sure uh how to answer the question uh in terms of how is it how is it used?

How how was it um uh viewed?

How was it um what was the um what was the artistic uh motivation for designing that tower as it now is sitting on the top of that building?

Uh I mean I I I re I really can't speak to that more than just it was a thought to fix the tower at the time.

It was not a creative design.

It was not, correct?

In no way.

Um I guess it I guess in some way it was, but that was not the the idea behind it.

Are you aware that and I speak for my own visualization of it?

It has a design impact.

Um I yeah, I mean I I would agree with that statement.

And and we are talking about that design impact in the framework of historic preservation.

Yep.

But we are also talking about it in the framework of a commission which is already espoused, at least in the terms of some of us on the commission of the need for change.

Well, let me interrupt you, Commissioner Kelly.

This uh application came to us uh mostly because of previous work that was performed without approval by this commission or a building permit.

So we're kind of coming back to restore it back to what it was originally and disregarding the current conditions, but I understand that, but I have no um reservation about questioning the motivation behind the uh uh change.

Thank you.

Sure.

Certainly we've hashed this out for uh uh seems like probably a couple of years now, and I'm sure you have had some uh extensive conversations with the city.

Uh do you have a time frame for moving forward on this if we approve it or immediately immediately?

Everything's lined up as long as I suppose you're just the ordering of windows essentially.

Yeah, yep.

You wouldn't need to file for a building permit.

Okay.

Yep.

Any other uh questions for the applicant, commissioners.

I'm sorry I wasn't here earlier, but for clarification, we are voting on sorry, we're voting on returning the um appearance to the prior or the okay the historic appearance, yes.

Okay.

Thank you.

And one uh item of discussion, you know, uh if you recall these windows, that's what's installed there now on the second level.

And we had some discussion at the previous workshop about restoring instead of a single fixed window going back to these double-hung windows that are were there previously.

And I think the only comment I have with that is I I recall also at the workshop, I feel like we were kind of both up in the air.

It could either stay to your point, sir, that it is the original lower half of the window.

Um but if you're not opposed, I think all of the windows being replaced with wood would be the right answer.

Then that would truly bring it back to that 2021 photograph.

Any other questions for the applicant?

All right, Mr.

Weinstein, do you want to have a seat momentarily?

The other members of the public here tonight wish to speak on this application.

All right, commissioners will bring it back up to us.

I do think the double hung windows on the second floor really add a nice scale proportion to the overall design of the tower versus keeping the uh fixed window that's there now.

Well, I'm not opposed to that.

I would note that uh I have to also agree with the applicant that there is some value to the fact that the windows that are in there now are part of the original structure.

And I would know does previously stated you know this case is a case that came for us because of a citation that was issued.

It's been a couple years now, um, but it was for work that was this these changes that were made without previous approval.

So we're now either trying to correct what was previously done.

And on that note, I'm familiar with HPC 26-16 located at 113 East 7th Street.

I move to approve the application with the conditions that the half timbers are a non-pressure treated wood of mahogany or cedar, and that the final tower design that replicates the 2021 National Register Photograph, including double hung windows at the second floor east and south elevations, which documents the historic design of the property before any alterations took place.

Second the motion motion made and seconded to approve the application with conditions.

Any further discussion?

All in favor of the motion, please raise your hand.

Motion carries seven to zero.

Thank you for your efforts, Mr.

Weinstein, and uh good luck on the project.

We look forward to the changes, getting it back to it's uh former appearance.

So good luck to you that concludes the cases to be heard this evening.

Uh next item is for citizen comment.

Are there any members of the public here tonight?

Wish this comment on anything regarding in general historic preservation.

All right, seeing uh um, you can have uh comment on the individual workshop uh both of them or if you want to all have well sometimes we take comment at workshop.

I generally tried to discourage that, at least me personally.

Um if you had something you wanted to comment on publicly, uh now would probably be as good as time.

Um I wanted to comment on HPC 25-369.

Oh, and I'm David Hunter, I live at 109 East 7th Street.

Um the proposal as I read it, um, has uh you know offers more questions than answers.

There are dozens of questions, but I only want to bring up a few tonight.

Um the stoop that is being proposed on the west side of the building seems to preclude there being a driveway on that side of the building, which is where the current driveway is from 7th Street into the property.

And so that makes me wonder if the primary access would be from Herm Alley.

And before that, it was there's a berm.

There was a difference in elevation between the alley and the and the and the yard and the back of the yard of the property.

And it did not appear that there was a axe that there was a right of way there.

And I'm pretty sure that I don't have a right of way to Herm Alley from my property.

It's okay to just start using those access points, but that seems to be the way that I see it.

And it will be obvious from the street.

That means of addressing housing challenges was dismissed well over 20 years ago.

We don't see SROs even in big cities anymore.

They do not meet the basic human needs of their occupants, and they are not not considered humane anymore.

The design looks more like an Airbnb for temporary residents or a group home.

And I'm not sure that it meets the criteria for those uses, nor do I nor do I see if that's even allowed on the in the on the property that is zoned R8.

Staff states that two units should be allowed on the property.

The existing structure already has two units, and I'm not sure how six bedrooms and three baths and a kitchen would be considered, wouldn't be considered an additional unit.

We've had condemned properties.

We've been watching our neighbors get put out on the street illegally.

We have a time limit that's expired.

If you want to make a closing comment.

Okay.

I think that's true everywhere in the historic district.

In preserving the historic nature of the downtown, make it difficult for people to maintain their properties.

But most of us have followed the law and done what we were supposed to do.

And really it's been well, it's been what it's been.

Um to approve such a project that is approved or that is proposed by a large firm from outside of our county and will clearly change the character of our neighborhood.

Umly after a few kind of meaningless compromises.

Um it's it's unconscionable, um, even after the extraordinary efforts that that the people who have lived there for decades have made in trying to preserve the uh historic character of the city by maintaining their properties properly.

Okay.

Uh before you sit down, Mr.

Hunter, I I know your religious faith.

Uh you you don't generally take an oath you weren't sworn in previously, right?

I was not.

I I came a little bit late.

Yep.

If I may do a test that your comments are to the truth, to the best of your knowledge.

Yes.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And I would say uh I believe the city council is reviewing the land management code, and part of that is looking at uh single room occupancies.

Mr.

Hunter, that you know if if you aren't already following it, maybe it's something you want to follow as well as any other member of the public.

Any other public comments?

Sure.

Just restate your name again, please.

Yep, Ryan Weinstein, umer of one thirteen East 7 Street.

Um just wanted to.

We do have a three minute limit, so I want to keep it to three minutes this time.

Okay, thanks.

There's just uh th three main points that I want to point out that I'm sure you guys are uh already aware of uh that I still take issue with this project.

Uh the first and foremost being the size and scale of it.

It just doesn't fit uh amongst the um in in the neighborhood.

The the proposed plan is still wider than the house block with the entry porch um and it's still taller than the back block, even though it doesn't go higher than the the the height of the total block of the house, that back block, it's still taller than that.

Um I don't think two stories is appropriate.

Um the kind of the third point uh other than sizing and scale um that you guys have before you in review tonight is just in is just the green space.

Uh so if you look at the aerial of those four houses, which is the neighborhood fabric, none of the houses, including my s my own that has an AD unit behind it, takes up more than 20 to 25% of the green space.

This proposal, while her calculation is absolutely incorrect and doesn't even account yet yet for the walkway that's gonna be needed.

There's gonna need to be some sort of uh pavement stepping stones or uh whatnot.

Um it's the green space is just there, you know, is is a big problem.

Um and and lastly, it kind of ties to that is the landscaping plan.

The only landscaping plan we have proposed is for Holly Bushes.

It's just not acceptable.

And and I hope that you guys review this and and uh give a lot of scrutiny to this project.

Thank you.

Okay, thanks.

Anyone else with public comment?

Considering the time, uh I think we should have a brief recess before going into workshop instead of moving it me to workshop.

So uh it's a little bit after 705, we'll reconvene at 7.15 for a brief recession.

Oh, no, no.

Yeah, so I'm not seeing this came on the same.

So they have to do that.

I don't think uh busy street.

So here we have one thirty.

She's done she's done waiting for it.

All right.

I don't know the answer.

So I don't think we're not.

I haven't called it as well.

I know my wife is on the one script.

Yeah.

Oh, really?

Oh, yeah.

And now it's in well they even shut it.

Yeah, for the perspective.

That's crazy.

It's so steep on that.

You know, on that one side, so it's crazy.

Everyone is every direction.

And the road is on the whether I just want to know.

Yeah.

So sometimes we've kind of driven these.

Okay.

Right.

So maybe we'll have the other side.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do we expect four and I think it's right.

Thank you.

Because we have to like fifteen years if we're on the four.

But up in behind there on the other side of the hill.

Storing one of those.

Yeah, it's true.

Yeah, it's a little bit more.

It was funny when we first moved down from New England.

We were just running the Bowers Road.

And there was nobody else.

I know where it's probably like that's what I'm saying.

I can just actually write um really uh every little piece of the orange four.

There's only one.

We ran out of a woman who's maybe had that herb reference.

Well she just left this work, you know.

Oh, yeah.

I mean one of the things that I think about is that for the bar and it's pretty much really hard.

It's a very interesting thing.

I know and when it's just like you kind of say that like that.

I mean, we can find it.

I just now recently came out.

It's a key polynomial accessory.

Let's see what it would tell us for the side.

And then whatever.

It's been empty one year.

Yeah, is that the HPC?

Yeah, yes, what happens?

Oh, we've been using it, so it's NTS long.

Oh, yeah.

So that's what you are interested in.

Yeah, the last two articles.

And I told the beginning of that.

So that's what we want to stop or more.

No, we just want to talk to you.

I don't know where this is.

Oh, I heard about this then.

That's a complete famous.

Oh, I just black how would you see what you're doing?

It's not the next one.

Right.

Civil War pension.

I love that freeze around it with all the civil wars around it.

Yeah, I've been doing that.

Okay, welcome back to the workshop portion of the Historic Preservation Commission hearing and workshop for March 26, 2026.

Our first item on the agenda for the workshop, HPC 25-369, 11 East 7th Street.

And that's Miss Hofdits.

Okay.

Okay, thanks.

Did you bought the other back in?

Okay.

All right.

So this application obviously has been reviewed multiple times at workshop.

Um I think the biggest concern we're going to address first is the the addition in its scale.

Um would you like to discuss a couple of the alterations that you made, at least to the sizing and pos I want to say shifting of the building.

Certainly.

So before you get started, let me just make a comment.

I know some of our previous uh workshops we had discussions led into you know single room occupancy SROs, which is really not our purview.

And for the commissioners here tonight, I would we're really like to uh limit our discussion to you know the things under the guidelines.

Uh and not so much as the use of the building or SROs in particular, but um so on that note if you want to proceed.

Certainly.

Um can you pull the microphone just a little bit closer?

I know it's a little short.

Yeah, I I don't know.

Um I know this is my fourth workshop here, so I don't know how much background you want me to give or respond to the neighbors, or if we want to just go straight into kind of just go straight into the um updates that you have provided.

Okay.

So we took the feedback from our last um session with the commissioners, and the overview is as follows.

There's currently a 50% green space with the new modifications.

The length was reduced by close to nine feet.

The width was reduced by three feet.

Um we decreased the number of bedrooms, we reduce the pitch of the slope roof from 712 to 612.

We moved the um entry to the west elevation.

We shifted the entirety of the building directly behind the existing structure.

So the only thing visible from the street is that um west side porch.

And the roof peak was also lowered by close to two feet.

So I can show you a this is uh before and after.

Sorry, just give me one second here.

Um just you know just to comment briefly, you know, we built over 30 houses exclusively or homes exclusively in downtown Frederick.

Um we won Builder of the Year, almost all of our projects have won some sort of award, either best design or best project, and on each of the projects, you know, there's always um neighbor opposition, unfortunately, which of course we we respect um the neighbors' viewpoint, and when possible we try to accommodate as best we can, but we can't please everyone.

So I would just respectfully note that for all 30 of the homes we built downtown.

Um you know, if we weren't able to build every time a neighbor objected, then that would there would that would result in no homes built.

So we are again in compliance with all the HBC guidelines.

We have 50% green space, the requirement is 30%.

Um we are smaller than the existing structure.

And of course, we're open to any feedback the the commission has I just have a question.

The 50%, does that include the new six parking spaces?

Yes.

And that number um was prepared by our architect, it's not prepared by me.

So um I'm not sure about the comment that it's inaccurate, but um those are numbers directly from him and stamped by him.

So first of all, uh I think kudos for your efforts here.

Um not only reducing the size, but shifting it more behind the existing building.

I think those were two of at least my primary concerns.

Uh and even though the the size was not so much smaller than the overall size of the existing building, you have reduced it.

Uh as well as shifting the the addition behind the uh existing building, which I think uh is uh very important.

And yeah, I think that little uh link uh between the the new and the old uh helps further separate distinguish the the old and the new uh and the overall height, you know uh wasn't so concerned about it before, but any efforts you made to lower it, you know.

I think the mean height of the roof, which is you know, the half the distance between the Eve and the peak is right in line with the the higher portion of that rear ill of the existing building.

So I don't think the height is a concern.

You've made the effort to um shorten the building, and I think shifting it behind the existing building is an improvement.

Uh any other commercials want to talk about uh mass scale height, kind of limited to those elements I have to say I'm too far off.

Right, I have to say I agree.

It has definitely reduced in size and has moved itself in line, so I appreciate that.

Probably my only question with that and that movement and where we're putting everything.

I'm looking at drawing A1.1 where the mechanical equipment is now tucked in that little space there.

It just seems out of place to me that there's a porch on that first and second floor of the original building.

It just seems like that would be uncomfortable to me that we could whoever's living there wouldn't be able to use that outdoor space.

So I'm wondering if those mechanical units can move I don't know to the fur to the further rear.

I just don't know if that's a possibility, but it just seemed like that space was incredibly tight there.

Okay.

This is also um this is an entry to the basement right here, so uh this little niche is pretty unusable as it is, and that's uh that was the thought behind tucking the units in there.

Well, I understand that.

I'm just saying that when they're on, right and they're blowing hot air that it would make it uncomfortable for those sitting on the porch or the balcony of the original building.

So just a thought.

Got it.

Um, but I have to agree with uh the chairman that I absolutely agree with the modifications you've made.

Yeah, we would we would just respectfully ask, you know, as this is our fourth hearing and we've spent quite a lot of money making architectural changes at the commission's suggestions.

You know, if there are commissioners who are against the project or do not want it to move forward, we would just welcome those comments now.

So for our own planning purposes.

Uh just for the record, I'm not eligible to vote on this because I'm gonna there are several prior workshops that I was not involved in.

You're welcome to go back and review them.

They're very thorough and wide-ranging.

Just a question, thank you uh really for making those changes.

I I also think that it looks a lot better.

Um we heard from uh one of the neighbors a concern about having the porch on the the side now and uh a driveway being able to manage through there.

I think that driveway is leaving though, at least in part.

That is the intention, yeah.

So we will access um through the alley, and um, in response to comments about the alley, um that's under the purview of the city.

So it's our understanding that there's no problem accessing in and out of the alley, and I think the issue before was um Mr.

Weinstein was parking his vehicles on the back of that lot, and there were some citations, and that was the prior issue I think that he was referring to, but as far as I'm aware, there's no issues with us um using that back alley.

And then um one other question from your parking lot.

Are you going to have a a sidewalk stepping stones or something to that side door?

Um at this point we do not have that drawn in, but if that changed, we would get that approved through the staff and the commission with any modifications.

Um I will not speak to uh as a commissioner to whether this project should be moved forward or not as a um a social uh uh initiative, which it obviously is.

Um that's not my role as a commissioner, and that's not how we're addressing the um uh the issues that you present to us here as the um uh structural and preservation initiative.

Um but I do want to say that I feel a commitment as a commissioner to represent the public interest, and I recognize the extent with the public interest is a broad-based uh matter, and uh uh I would like to share my uh familiarity with that um uh my understanding of that as my role as a commissioner without making a specific recommendation to what you do or don't do regarding your initiative with this uh SRO or whatever it is being described as.

Okay, and I I just want to just remind the commission that we did submit a submit a letter from the county indicating support for this project.

And uh we have one on the way from the city as well, so there is support from both the county and the city to see this project built.

Could we look at drawing A2?

2.2?

It's cut off, so I can't tell you that's my only clue.

Um it's a 2.1.

Showing the it shows the rear elevation.

And I think my I've really too line.

Yeah.

Okay, it's cut up online.

Um so with the rear elevation, it's very blank, and whoever does see the this addition is probably gonna be from the alleyway.

You do have two paired windows, and I'm wondering if one of them could just be a singular window on the side elevation and then another one shifted over to the rear, just so it's not a big blind wall.

On the second floor.

Do you have a choice?

But just something to kind of add uh a little piece of administration on that the elevation.

And if it's one or two windows, uh you you you have a couple options to to move around.

I mean a double window for such a small space is more than enough light.

You know, if you took the uh Ms.

Martin Koskey's uh suggestion, you know, maybe make the w west windows just a single double hung and then uh a single double hung on the uh north side one on the window.

You run into the issues of bed walls and all that such such, but so if you look on the side elevation, there are paired windows.

Maybe just make it a singular window and then drag the other one.

So there's still two windows in that bedroom.

Got it.

Any further discussion, at least because the biggest concern was the scale of the building and the height.

Any further discussion on that matter?

Yeah, I'd just like to add some of the uh previous comments, you know.

Uh as an addition to a two-family dwelling unit, now we're still essentially a two-family dwelling unit, but that well.

You know, generally you look for an addition to be smaller, much smaller in scale.

And even though this has been reduced from the previous size, it is still low relatively large.

Um as an addition.

Um it meets I think our city guidelines that aren't real uh uh descriptive other than being smaller uh in height and size.

Uh the national standards, interior design, interior department standards do talk about scale and uh proportion to existing building.

But as I stated earlier, I think you know the reduction in the uh the overall size of the footprint and shifting this to behind the uh building uh makes it more uh acceptable to me.

Is there any other commissioners talking about the size and the height of the building?

I would I would just say I I think this is uh this iteration is an improvement over the last one.

I appreciate the effort you've made here.

I also I do think it's too big still.

Uh I think uh adding a six-bedroom addition to a four-bedroom house is just too much uh and it's out of scale with the other houses in the neighborhood, particularly the houses on each side of it.

So my my take would be uh I would take another shot at reducing it uh a little bit more.

So this is gonna be the crux.

We've been here many times before, and we need to give the applicant some clear directions.

Uh I would like to hear from all the commissioners on the size and the scale and the height of the addition.

Pro collin are in different I'll I'll add since I haven't I missed the last two workshops on this, um, I'll also agree that this iteration is definitely much better than the the other two.

This is um much more appropriate.

Um I'm gonna also agree that I just looking at it irrespective of what the future use of the property is, just looking at the size of the addition in comparison to the original house, it does feel out of scale.

If this came as a property just by a single uh family, I think the commission would probably be swayed that it was too big still.

Um, and that given with the size of the parking area, um I just still think that it's too much.

Um but I'll reiterate again that the moves in this one are much more appropriate than anything we've seen previously.

Yeah, so thank you for the top feedback.

The the issue is just you know, it's it's subjective.

We are under the guidelines, one of the sides of this property is not even historic.

It's facing a non-historic alley.

There have been other projects approved throughout downtown on market street, far bigger as additions.

So we've already modified this four times.

So just saying you would like to see it smaller, how how much smaller, because at this point it is your personal preference.

So are we talking five feet?

Are we talking about let's look at this one for a second?

Because you can see the pattern of development of some of the other buildings.

And even for instance, this one that has some sort of other structure on the property, like this just the scale of the accessory structures or the additions to some of these other buildings in the neighborhood are just significantly smaller than what this footprint is showing.

Right.

So it's just very startling to see this you know, huge block that's the same size, it looks the same size visually at this scale as all the other buildings.

It's just really big in comparison to the historic structure.

I understand, but with all due respect, this is a 200-foot deep lot and it's underutilized.

So you could also make that argument with any of the other houses we built downtown that you know they're always larger than the existing houses because that's how we have to build in order to that's just how we have to build.

Are you talking about new construction versus an addition?

So I mean, under that argument, we would not be able to put any addition here.

We would not be able to build that.

So are you saying that you would not approve any addition here because the rest of the houses are not that deep?

I personally would approve an addition, just not one that's as large as this one.

And it seems like there's kind of a consensus that everyone on the commission feels like it's too large.

So what would not be too large, I guess, is what I'm trying to understand.

Well, what what was the question?

What would not be too large?

Unfortunately, probably half that depth.

If you had 53, 54 feet, it'd be 27.

26 feet, but in my view.

Um I don't agree with that.

Um since I have been on the commission, I have watched expansions um into the air.

I resisted one that was an additional floor to a building on Market Street.

Um you are expanding our uh scale in terms of approval for uh increases to the size of historic additions.

Um I have no problem with that in terms of this particular building and setting.

And in reference to what is the uh the pattern in historic preservation changes in Frederick at this point.

I agree.

And I I could also bring precedent to the council's attention that there's a building that was an addition on South Market that's far far longer than the existing building.

So there is precedent downtown for this for sure.

Um, particularly because this is on the fringe of the historic district.

Um there are examples that are right on market stream.

So if I could ask a question of my fellow commissioners, particularly as we're looking at the property next door with the ADU.

All right, the accessory derailing unit.

That looks of substantial size to me.

So are we opposing this because it's an addition as opposed to it's not an ADU?

I mean, if it were an ADU, would it be okay?

No.

Well, I can say the one next door is very.

I'm not considering the use, but I think it's just out of scale in terms of its massing with the other houses on the street.

And I think it will be uh you know, we we get into fine-grained detail all the time, but we're proposing a uh a six-bedroom addition to a four-bedroom house.

I just think that's too big.

Because the the guidelines specify what that means as far as massing and scaling, and it specifically indicates in the guidelines that as long as it's lower, what less wide and less deep than the existing building, it's fine.

That's what the guidelines specify.

So you're talking from your guidelines also talk about massing and scale, and I think the massing and scale is out of the way.

It defines what that means in the guidelines.

It doesn't, it's not whatever you think it means.

Otherwise, there would be no everything would be subjective that came before the council.

That's why the guidelines specifies what that means for you to follow.

It's not whatever you think it is.

And and for clarification, were you saying if this was an ADU, would we have the same concerns?

Or separate units.

A separate unit.

Correct.

Because if I look at the one next door just on this drawing or on this aerial photograph, it appears that the ADU next door, again, completely separate from the original house, looks just as large as this addition to me.

But because it's separated.

Correct.

But there is a zoning limitation, I think that Ms.

Underwood is is working on for an ADU uh uh the owner has to live in the property to have an ADU.

So they're trying to get that changed right now.

The the council is trying to change that, I believe.

But I understand that.

And and we certainly none of that is under our purview.

So to the point of there is specific instruction in the guidelines about what mass and scale equals.

It's not just opinion.

And I would offer, I don't know, because I've not gone out and measured the neighbor's ADU.

I would offer that this may be even smaller than the ADU.

So that it's too large for this property.

It that may be subjective, given that it does fall within the criteria defined in the guidelines.

Yeah, I I don't know how we can build in the city if you know everything is just whatever the commission thinks.

We have to be able to follow the guidelines.

Otherwise, there's no consistency in law.

Well, we have the advantage of um some vagueness to our guidance, uh, which might be uh captured in the terms massing and scale.

I appreciate the commissioner's comment that she didn't go out and message uh measure the building next door, but that's the kind of thing that we may be moving ourselves towards not to get too far afield smack mode in hand.

And maybe you know, maybe you don't know, but uh this is an R8 zone, is that correct?

Uh you know what some of what's allowed in an R8 zone versus uh I guess a lower density residential would seem to be a little bit higher, at least a moderate density level of residential.

I don't know off the top of my head what the zoning is.

Okay, you know, it's kind of going to your point, you know.

Certainly the city is growing, evolving, developing.

Uh certainly there's uh a few remaining lots, and you know, you could say this is uh underutilized, you could say that an addition of this scale doesn't fit within the context of the neighbors.

Um you could also say that the neighbors have the same potential to expand on their properties as well.

So that's kind of uh that's the debate we're having.

So if I may draw attention to page 107 of the guidelines, additions shall be limited to in size, scale, and relationship to the historic building.

Additions should generally not be higher, longer, or wider than the existing building.

And I think Ms.

Underwood has proved that it is not in any of those dimensions longer, higher, or wider.

Also, we've we've just been chasing an invisible bird at this point.

At our last hearing, you told us to move it behind the house to make it smaller.

This is the first we're hearing now that you want it to be half the size.

And this is our fourth workshop.

I think you're calling us on our opinions regarding this change.

And I would suggest that in a term that uh possibly the chairman would does not like to hear me reference.

These are broader issues than we certainly I have had to deal with as a historic preservation commissioner.

The community is growing, the city is growing, it's under tremendous development pressure.

The community, the state, the national, and the country is under pressure in terms of housing.

I mean, these are these are realities, and we are not living in a bubble despite the fact that we have been relegated out of the uh uh city council office middling.

We have these things to consider.

Well, and I've tried to present that need, but it the commission does not seem to care.

Um my frustration is just again in the in the moving goalpost.

Um, well, I think yeah, that's we've gone back and forth.

I mean, we started out with vinyl sizing, so now we've moved away from that.

We talked about size and scale.

You know, to me, it's one of naming.

We're saying this is an addition to a two-family dwelling unit.

So we're putting uh an addition now, it's a slightly smaller in footprint, but it's still a two-family dwelling unit, even though we're in essence doubling the size.

And again, that's outside of your scope.

And I believe the city attorney would tell you the same.

Yeah.

That's that's wildly out of the way.

An addition is not maximum amount that's allowed, it's something that's fits appropriate to scale.

The use is outscape.

Scale and mass of the addition is not.

So even I mean, going beyond to the Secretary of Interior standards, does get more and talking about you know the appropriate size and scale.

Uh can I insist, however, that those terms, massing in scale and appropriate, are subject to subjective interpretation.

And that's my point is that I don't believe they are.

I believe they are defined in the guidelines, and that certain commissioners present are making this a subjective evaluation of it's whatever they think it should be based on their personal opinion, which is not fair to applicants, it's not fair to property owners, and it makes it impossible to build in the city based on building whatever Joe Smith thinks happens to be seen.

That that's the issue.

It's the Again and that evidence is that you're stating your personal opinion because what's fair to the neighborhood has nothing to do with a property owner's right, and it has nothing to do with what the guidelines specify that you have to follow.

I would respectfully disagree with that.

The guidelines don't okay.

Can we read the first part of that statement that you already read?

Not where Because it goes on to say in general additions should be smaller and additions should that's the second sentence, generally not be higher.

No, no, no.

So before that, the sentence before that.

What was it?

Additions shall be limited in size, scale, and relationship to the historic building.

And then it goes on, additions should generally not be higher, longer or wider, and in this case it is not than the existing building.

On a case-by-case basis, the commission may approve a taller or wider addition at the rear of the building, provided that the historic resource and setting will not be negatively impacted.

So I just I mean, I just I'm against the idea that just because something is on the fringes of the historic district, it doesn't deserve to be looked at with the same sort of attention that we look at something that is on Market Street.

And a lot of the other, even though we look at this on a case by case basis, a lot of the other projects that have been in under discussion tonight that we've referenced as part of this case are commercial buildings that are in a commercial setting on arguably the most important commercial street that Frederick has.

And I know that it's a little more industrial, but it was included in the historic district because it was felt that this street embodied the character of the district and the period of significance.

So I'm I don't want to just look at it less harshly because it has a you know it's a cause that I personally agree with, or because it's on the fringes or because it has an alley.

Um I think it deserves the same amount of scrutiny as these other projects.

It's it's not that it's that the guidelines specifically direct that if it's not visible from the stri from the street, there's a lesser degree of scrutiny required.

And so that's where that's where it comes in, and that's where it's relevant.

The fact that two neighbors can see this is relevant versus uh a building on market street that's visible from the street.

Look, I I agree with that, and I fully think that this iteration of this project is a marked huge improvement from what was first presented.

Um and it has much more character and much more detail and is a much more appropriate addition to any structure.

But I still think that just looking at it visually, it just feels really massive.

If you're standing in the backyard looking at it, but if you cannot see it from the street.

Um I'm not gonna I I think that we have everybody here has kind of expressed their opinion on the massing.

So um I don't know if we're gonna reach a consensus and maybe the commission will just have to vote on it and and decide because there are seven of us, so it's not just one opinion.

There is a another, I think, important aspect to the setting that we haven't touched base upon, and I think it it it's important that we we cover everything.

The parking area in the back did extend um a couple spaces.

The parking area in the rear, and if you wouldn't mind showing the the site plan.

Um the parking area in the rear has exp extended a little bit in the rear.

And I would like to have a a conversation with the commission about parking.

Um there is language in the guidelines and it's included in the the staff report.

Let me just find the section of the guidelines.

Uh parking areas and driveways near alleys can be asphalt, brick, or concrete.

I don't think we know the material yet, is that correct?

Uh the updated asphalt asphalt stone.

Um those visible from the public street must be consistent with the surrounding streets and sidewalks.

Parking lots must be located behind the buildings.

I I think we're good there, and not visible from the streets.

The commission may require screening to block the view of parking lots from streets and alleys.

Screenings requirements may involve vegetarian uh vegetation, fencing, walls, or a combination.

Drawings for parking parking lots submitted to the commission should include a delineation of spaces which it does, and a description of the appearance and placements of stops.

The parking area has grown.

And to a degree where I do feel that something should be added in this residential neighborhood to soften the appearance of that.

Here, here I think closer to the alleyways and the side the side lot lines is probably the most important would be my argument, but I don't disagree.

I would tell you my greater concern is about the stepping stones or the the means of egress from that parking area into the building.

Um right, and how large they are to appropriately support an individual carrying bags or what have you, they may be shopping, and how much of the green space will wind up being taken because now that six parking spot of asphalt as opposed to stone or some other umpervious material, it just seems to me that it it could cause problems.

And then all the way to the entrance to the stoop to the stoop on the side.

Correct.

If that's the entrance, I mean if there's going to be an entrance at the back of the right.

Well, the this is uh okay.

And I do know that we discussed this at believe at a couple of different workshops about lighting back there.

I know you said there's a at least a street lamp.

Um still seems like a very large area for one lamp to cover.

I don't know which way is projecting as well.

I would say that would be my worry, particularly for the neighbors that too much lighting is a bother as well, right?

Because now their lives are just disturbed by the light.

There's a I mean, there's a a light pole right here.

So just oh sorry, just for clarification.

Uh is it seven rooms or six in six?

How come you've got seven parking spots in the back?

Um I think the architect maybe just added an extra one.

But it was originally we originally had seven rooms in with the uh with the reduction at six now.

I mean, we can take one of them off if you prefer, but there is one parking spot in the front.

Is that correct?

Yes.

So it's is it seven and then one, so eight?

Yes.

Okay.

Of course, we've talked about it a number of times off-street parking, so that we're not disturbing the neighbors who also need parking.

So yeah.

So I'm sensitive to the applicants uh concern that um been a number of workshops that I haven't attended.

Uh I get the sense from the applicant's point of view that it's been kind of a moving target.

Um can't speak to that, but if it's true, that's that's a that's a reason to be worried.

Um but because of that, I'm not prepared, not don't view myself as eligible, but um if we it might be good if we could get a sense of I think I got a sense of almost everybody, but if we could get a sense of uh clarification of everybody's preliminary views, so I can figure out if I need to go back and be prepared to vote on it.

And we can't do a a s a straw vote at workshops, but oh we can't?

No.

Well, we've sort of gotten it a little bit more.

We get clues in and strong indications, but we can't do primary boots.

All right.

Um if I were you, I'd go ahead and listen to the recordings.

It's it's worth understanding for that frame of reference.

Uh Commissioner DeYong.

Uh do you have any sort of general uh observations?

Uh I'm sympathetic to the developer.

I do understand that.

But I'm also very sympathetic to the neighbors who find this very huge.

Yeah.

And um, of course, if it were me, I would I mean, I would like it smaller, but it's within the design guidelines.

I mean, how does the developer feel?

I mean, what about good neighbor?

I mean, that's what I say.

My company is 10 years old, and as I said, we built 30 homes downtown.

Um last year we built five units on Muse on Maxwell, and with that project, we probably had 15 to 20 neighbors who are vehemently against the project.

Um after every project that we build, the neighbors always come up to me afterwards and absolutely love the project.

So it's always a battle, and there are always neighbors who are against our projects, and if there was a commission like this, um 30 people in downtown Frederick would not have homes as a result of it.

So I mean, our view is we are the property owner, we deserve to be able to build what we want as long as it's in compliance with the laws.

And um, you know, I'm sure you would also feel quite um unfairly treated if you were following the laws and um a commissioner was stating that they didn't think you should be able to build something on your property that you're entitled to build under the guidelines and the laws.

I live in this neighborhood.

And so at the invitation of fellow commissioners, I will speak as someone who lives in the neighborhood.

Um there is a diversity and a growing diversity of people who live in this neighborhood.

I'm not a an expert, but I would speculate that the growth of the historic district is happening.

The historic district as a commercial initially and very successful commercial enterprise is expanding to seventh street.

Um the buildings on this block.

Whether the residents of that block are happy with that or not, it's happening.

And there is nothing disturbing in it to me.

However, uh I think uh a more enhanced site plan might be beneficial.

There are several large trees out there, and I believe at least a few of them are on your property.

Uh I don't know if two to the west or even more are on your property, and I think one on the east side between the parking lot and the rear of the addition.

Uh I mean if you could add those to your site plan, maybe uh moderately to to scale, I think the trees themselves would will dwarf the addition.

Maybe some additional landscape plantings that help uh soften the edge between at least your neighbor uh to the west.

Uh I'm not sure how much room on the east side you would have for screening beyond the fence that's already there.

I think you know, landscaping and particularly showing the existing trees.

I and I would want to see the trees as hopefully existing to remain.

I presume you're not intending to remove them or are you it's actually funny you mentioned that.

Um the storm actually um there was a tree on Mr.

Weinstein's property right here.

The storm blew it over, it actually crushed the garage over the last two weeks.

And Mr.

Weinstein cut the tree off and then asked me if I wanted to quote as landscaping company to remove it from my yard.

So this tree is no longer in existence.

There are yeah, several trees throughout the neighborhood, uh certainly neighbors extended beyond, have large backyards with large trees in them, and kind of the whole garden landscape, uh if you will.

We're happy to plant trees all along here as well.

If I wouldn't, well, yeah, wouldn't necessarily recommend just for screening purposes, but some enhancement uh to landscape that make it homey.

I guess homey soften the edges a little bit.

Uh something located in some of the blank areas on the building to just kind of soften the edge, I guess.

Not so much to screen it.

I think sometimes screening just points a big flag says there's something different over there.

Because there's screening to try to hide it.

I don't know if there's a way to enhance that whole kind of garden feel of all those neighboring backyards with the large trees and the large open spaces.

Like I say, I think some of those trees are would dwarf, you know, reduce the feel of the additions.

These trees are massive.

Yeah.

And that's an incredibly uh appropriate uh suggestion at this point in my uh in my life, literally.

Um last evening uh I watched from this apartment building, which is definitely a modern construct of you know, five years age uh around the corner from where we are discussing this site.

dwarf you know reduce uh the feel of the additions these trees are massive yeah and and that's an incredibly uh appropriate uh suggestion at this point in my uh in my life literally uh last evening uh I watched from this apartment building which is definitely a modern construct of you know five years age uh around the corner from where we are discussing this site um uh I watched hundreds of crows nest in a large scale evergreen tree uh just across another building from me so the setting you are in right now remains very much a setting that is not threatened I don't think for people who are in the neighborhood and concerned that it will you we will lose its residential character its comfortable scenic natural character that will come I think because you know downtown is moving outtown um but right now it is not relevant to your building and it's it's construction and what the chairman is saying in terms of enhancing its position in that already in continuing comfortable natural environment um is an excellent idea I just want to address quickly the issue of the moving goal posts because I think that um part of what's tricky about being on the commission is understanding that line between what someone who owns private property wants to do and what the commission is charged on with on behalf of the city.

And I think that the improvements that we've seen with this plan over the course of the four workshops um really are a testament to the fact that the commission is working as intended because this is much better than it already was and with the improvements with any potential landscaping or anything else the commission is improving the development in the historic district and um I do want to commend you for all the changes that you've made and how receptive you've been to everything that we've said because this is definitely miles ahead of what was first presented.

So thank you for that and I might also in addition to landscaping I think even though it's not a purview I will say that on color um I think color can help enhance this addition reduce the scale instead of you know matching the white the that's the existing building which just expands it changing the color even if it's just a more darker gray or making a a nice color that make it really stand out.

I mean as as a feature uh I think a color on that addition could uh be beneficial enhanced landscaping could be beneficial you've already m uh uh addressed the size and and the height uh I don't know that we're ever get to the perfect solution but at the same time you know you do have your uh rights as the owner we're trying to weigh those against the benefit of the neighbors and the surrounding community as well um may I and I don't know I'm I don't want to say we need another workshop but I would like to see maybe a color rendering showing perhaps a color there maybe showing more enhanced landscaping I don't I'm not sure if we solve something new at the next meeting we could make a decision necessarily maybe we could I don't know color does make a big difference I think that's a a very simple doesn't cost anything you're using cement board siding right a hardy um and that you're not painting that I'm assuming or no we were going to paint in a dark gray but I didn't think HPC was doing colors anymore so we didn't really include that as part of the scope.

Well so we review embedded colors and if you're it was going to be unprimed or just primed and we were just gonna paint it after the fact.

Okay.

So we're happy to do dark rides it will help.

I think that was the intents um that was the intent it's just we didn't include it again because I wasn't sure that HPC was doing quite color paint we don't you're right um but if it um a lot of times Hardy board comes with that embedded color so you don't have to paint in and you don't have to maintain it ever and then in that case we do review color and that would just be an opportunity to just put in a color sheet just say this is what we're looking at and it will adjust that point.

But so kind of like a synopsis synopsis of the tonight so the next resubmission deadline is March 30th.

Some things to just to address just from general and for staff comments is noting what the trim material is around the windows.

If you're gonna be proposing fencing, any sort of uh screening out there, just making note of that either both both on the drawings and on the scope of work.

Um issues with the rehabilitation of the rear uh second story porch, just making sure we do have that foot little photograph of the railing.

I don't have that just yet.

I mean also comment Sarah on the exterior lighting.

I now I'm getting real down into it, but uh the exterior lighting proposed.

I mean, it doesn't really relate to an architectural feature or an entry point or a stair landing or something.

It's more kind of just general lighting.

Uh I would almost like to see it removed and just have lighting at the entry points and the porch and maybe on the path from the parking area, put some uh pathway lights there versus mounting something on the building that's gonna perhaps further uh detract or distract the neighbors.

Just went with the pathway lighting.

If that's a consideration.

So I'm not sure the lights on the building themselves really add anything.

And it would probably call more attention to the building if they're lighted, particularly all through the night, or if they're on the motion sensor coming off and on versus a low voltage pathway light.

I I think the recommendation would um uh assist with the um creating the image or retaining the image of a of the property as a residence rather than a what you um I hesitate to put it on the table or possibly setting up as an institution, an organization, a facility.

And I think also uh to an extent, you know, the the parking in the rear, I guess helps alleviate some of the parking that's now essentially backing out in the street, which I think we've had comments from the public before is a hazard uh uh potential, and certainly probably the neighbors have unless they have ability to turn around or backing into the street as well.

So you know the part the parking in the rear, I think helps alleviate a lot of that.

And I presume since the alley has a name, it's not a private alley.

So if you can if you have access there.

Um see any other comments commissioners are we come back for a hearing, do you think, Sarah Zonderwood?

Don't want to do another workshop.

I will say if you are projecting to be on hearing that since you had that continuance, it wouldn't be heard till what May 14th, which is the first hearing in May.

Um so I would anticipate if anything is resubmitted, it's probably for a workshop.

The March 30th is a deadline at 11 a.m.

Is that for that's for the next one, but not for the May?

That that would be for like a workshop.

Um for May hearing that would be May 4th.

I guess there is option if you do go to a hearing and we can't resolve anything, we could continue it at that point.

Uh continue the hearing.

But that's kind of six and one-half dozen and another as far as a risk for you, but okay.

Yeah, carefully consider, I guess our comments tonight.

I think they can make an improvement, I guess.

If it comes down to the the overall size and uh any enhancements you might make on landscaping or color and lighting, even though not they don't all fall under our purview.

I think it could be an enhancement, whether it's enough that's the uh that's the risk, but okay.

Thank you very much.

Thank you for your help.

All right, commissioners are you prepared to continue or do we need another brief recess moving forward.

Next case, HPC 25-382, located at 331 North Market Street.

And who can guess?

Ms.

Havidence.

Very nice to start as people.

Um would the applicants like to come up and introduce themselves?

And I believe you were sworn in correct.

Yes, sir.

Okay.

Good evening.

Um my name is Sehem, last name Ben Salah.

Um we lived here in Frederick for 15 years.

My husband.

Hi, I'm Sal.

First, I would like to thank you for taking the time to review our application.

Uh I would like to start off.

So the application concerns the proposal to install new TPO and asphalt shingle roofing, gutter replacement, rooftop H back units, installation of new composite wood trim board, gooseneck lighting, masonry repairs, masonry painting, and window repairs with that with blackout film.

A little bit about the property.

The commercial building at 331 North Market Street was constructed in 1959 and historically served as the Carmack Day supermarket.

The original structure was a one-story concrete block and stone contr construction with a concrete block tower positioned along West 4th Street.

The property went through significant alterations by 2008 and it now features a brick facade with storefront windows and an addition of a second story.

The property at 331 North Market Street is identified as a non-contributing resource in the 2021 National Register update.

The applicant is proposing several areas of rehabilitation and alterations to the building.

However, the scope of work in drawings provided have conflicting information that will need to be clarified.

Moving to windows.

Per the guidelines, window film may be approved by the commission when installed in the context of window signage or any energy conservation.

How however it is also noted that the guidelines that mirrored or tinted glass will not be approved.

Oh my goodness.

So sorry.

The purpose of the blackout film is for energy efficiency.

You want to speak a little bit on that?

The blackout is uh mostly for energy as well as some privacy because we are going to have uh wellness placed there.

So it's even privacy as well as energy, but okay.

Uh in that packet.

Is the blackout film on certain windows, all the windows?

Are you talking about the storefront or are you talking about the uh Yeah?

So like you have the second row of on the second story, you have some windows up there.

Is there proposed blackout film up there or just on the store?

I just on the storefront.

Upstairs is gonna stay as it is, it's just gonna change the frame from white to probably a black trick.

Black trim.

Yeah.

And on the ground floor level, you're looking at film on all the windows, all the storefront on the ground level.

Uh because uh there would be some uh darkness because of I guess uh not on the fourth street side, but on the market street side.

Okay.

All blackout film.

Yes.

Even on the storefront uh uh doors, because I think they're glass.

Are they gonna have blackout film or is that just gonna be clear?

Okay.

So just out of my curiosity, because I think I read you're gonna put the film on, but you're also putting something else behind it, correct?

So you're almost closing the windows off without making them go away.

Correct.

Okay, thank you.

I I just want to comment.

I'm very happy you're bringing new life back to this long vacant building.

Yeah, I didn't have you.

I forgot that part.

So true.

And it's a beautiful um uh wood house is uh it's a luxury spa wellness that exists in uh northern Virginia as well as uh Montgomery County.

So I thought it would be we deserve one too in Frederick.

So I had to bring corporate all the way here and um explain why we wanted to have it in Frederick because they wanted us to go to Tyson's corner for it.

And um, so I brought them from Denver and I said come and visit downtown Frederick and so and they gave us the approval.

Because they have to approve us first before we even come to you.

Yeah.

I guess one concern I have about the film if it's applied to the windows directly if it makes it too reflective.

I think the mirror transition.

I do know this is gonna be opaque.

Yes, okay, exactly.

Um I I don't know to what like percentage or what that really looks like, because I need that product literature, so that would be just something you'll need in resubmission.

Sure.

Well, uh there was also a talk between us that we might even just put curtains and maybe the windows may not maybe the way it is.

If we put the curtains, it might stay that way too.

So there's also films, uh I don't know what might be called a fretted appearance with like just small dots and various sizes that uh may not have as much reflective mirror-like quality as something that's solid black, but something that's kind of that's a little bit light transmit through just uh uh make it not soaque, I guess, or or potentially a mirror-like.

So explore those finishes or uh explore the idea of just curtains if that's enough, or I mean yeah, okay.

Yeah, we will have curtains definitely.

Um side it's gonna be the relaxation room, and the other side is gonna be the salt room, and next to it it's gonna be the the spa for nails and pedicure.

So anything that has to do with change in or it's gonna be inside.

Um so but this is what's gonna be at the front.

I'll um just to add that anything that's smeared and and I've seen it on the sheriff's building, birds will run into it.

Yes, and do it in our problems therapeutic.

It's not yeah, it's not anyway.

Yeah, anyway, thank yeah.

I do also note that you're proposing some repairs on, I believe, all of the upper windows.

Um is that just you know, minor repairs, such as like replacement of sills?

Is it just repainting?

What what does the extent of repairs?

If they're broken, we're gonna replace it the same kind.

If they're not, we're just going to color it uh different color of the only the trims.

Only only the trims.

So you is that mean just for the trims for replacement or the whole window is replacement?

Just the trim.

Just the trims.

Okay.

Yeah.

Just mean by mindful is once you get in the project and you find out that gosh, this window's in terrible shape, and you find out that maybe replacement is needed, then come back to us.

It's a non-historic building and replacement in kind can be reviewed administratively.

Our idea coming here today is uh to make sure they give us the permit so we can at least do something.

I don't want to go another winter.

Uh because last winter was terrible when uh the place is uh water was terrible.

Yeah, we have to seal the building that that way it doesn't get totally damaged.

Because right now all the water is inside.

May I believe so almost coming to a year, and uh we haven't been able to do anything.

So I'm just curious about all the greenery that was growing inside.

We'll make vegetable soup.

Yeah.

Any questions on windows?

Any more concern?

All right.

Doors on the east elevation of the building, the applicant is proposing to convert one store window into a double doorway per the guidelines.

It's not appropriate to damage original walls with new entrances and such modifications will only be approved on a case-by-case basis.

But since this is section is part of the 2008 renovations of the of the building, this alteration may be appropriate.

The scope of work doesn't detail the new door proposal, and no product literature was provided for the door.

This work will need to be clarified, and product literature will need to be provided for it.

Okay.

Yeah, the door is a it's um because it's side on the east side.

Oh okay.

We don't know what when we'll get back to you because I have no idea what the architect provided.

So um I know the main door is gonna be double.

It's based on what corporate look.

We have to go by their look.

Gotcha.

Yes.

And I have all the specs for that if you want what type, the height, the type of wood, and all of that.

Let's see if I can get this right on the first five.

Okay.

Oh, look at here.

So this is the new doorway on top of the door.

Yes.

Oh, okay.

That's a single one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a single door.

Facing Market Street closest to 4 street.

Yeah.

We want to be able to match, but I'm not sure this is for future uh use.

We know but uh if it requires to be a single door, we can do a single door, that's not a problem.

Okay.

I this is a non-historic building.

I think that this commission is probably gonna be very flexible.

Okay, as long as I think it's just we're required to know what the product literature is, just so we can finish our review.

But we're winding, yeah.

Okay, yeah, okay.

Moving on to masonry.

The applicant is proposing masonry pairs on the buildings, such as tuck pointing, washing with mild detergent, repair expansion joints, and repairing the stone caps.

Um, it is noted on the drawings of the areas of the stone cap repairs, however, it's unclear where the remaining masonry pairs are proposed.

Um the applicant will need to clarify uh clearly identify all areas of repair in the drawings.

Um any masonry work completed should match the color and mortar profile of the non-historic brick, given that the new facade was constructed in 2008 and out of historic brick and out of non-historic brick.

The mortar does not necessarily need to be a line-based mortar.

The applicant is proposing to paint the non-historic masonry with a Sherman Williams paint, color the shaitake.

Uh per the guidelines, structures or sections thereof that are identified as non-historic may be painted for stabilization or aesthetic reasonings.

Okay.

Any concerns about the paint?

No.

No.

The trim, all wood trim is proposed to be replaced with gelled when composite trim with a smooth finish.

The trim is to replicate the design and location of the existing wood trim per the guidelines.

The most appropriate replacement of wood trim would be an in-kind replacement.

However, the commission may approve an alternative material for the non-historic building.

Any concerns with not using wood on the site?

Okay.

Well, we might or me.

Yeah.

We might use composite material.

Yeah, it's all perfect.

Um the roof, a new roof hatch opening is proposed to be installed near the um new HVAC equipment.

Staff identified no concerns or conflicts with the guidelines.

There are three gooseneck lights proposed to be installed at North Market Street facade.

Product literature is needed.

I have no comments on the gutters.

For general commons, staff finds no inconsistency with the proposed rehabilitation work when referencing the guidelines.

Weather sealing windows, installation of the rooftop H back units, TPO and asphalt roof roofing replacement, cricket installation to mitigate water.

Um signage is mentioned in the scope of work and is noted on the site plan.

I think the overall site plan showing the park the parking.

However, the applicant, I believe, at the time is not proposing sign installation at the moment.

Um this item just needs to be removed out from when you resubmit.

Okay.

Could you show us on the drawing where the gooseneck lighting would go?

Oh, I think you got them.

One, two, three, second story windows.

Yeah, one two three.

Oh, right, right there.

Okay.

I believe I believe it's for in the future for when there is signage, it's just to light up the signs.

Okay.

Okay.

Is that it?

That is it.

Any concerns from the commission?

So it's really about just cleaning things up so it's a nice clear package.

And get this on to the commission for a hearing for final vote.

Um that will be a March, so next Monday, March 30th at 11 a.m.

I would need to see a full uh resubmission packet submitted via the OpenGov portal.

Um that will be for was April 9th hearing.

Okay.

And I'm going to tell my wife she doesn't have to go on cruises anymore to get a little box.

She doesn't.

Um, I'm happy that no woman should travel all the way to Northern Virginia.

Montgomery.

We need to spend the money here.

Keep it here.

All right.

Kind of the uh the albatross.

No one could figure out what to do with it.

We have lots of ideas, but grocery store.

Well, they got a microprofit, so there wasn't going to be a grocery store going in there, and anything else just didn't seem to work out.

So it's been uh someone's been trying to figure it out for a long time.

So uh kudos for you to uh take that attempt and kudos for I don't know if you took all these photos on the rooftop of all the neighboring roos and uh facades at a higher elevation, but maybe we should enter those into the records for future references.

But appreciated all looking at all the neighbors' houses and rooftops as well.

And uh certainly the extent of the repairs involved uh just getting the building dried in be a major improvement.

So uh good luck.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

And everybody in the city that's lived here more than 10 years will be coming praising your your graces.

We have been here for so long that you know we always drive by that property, and like you know, something needs to be done.

So that's a lot of people have said that.

So everybody has said that.

All right.

Thank you.

Thank you.

All right.

Next case is HPC 26-30 at 151 North Market Street.

If you guys want to come forward, last but not least, Leon.

Oh thank you for having me.

You were here at the beginning, sworn in.

Yes.

Just want to state your name and association with the project for the record.

Yeah, Liam Fax.

I'm the project manager for Zavus Architecture and Design, representing the owner of 151.

Okay, last one.

All right.

This application concerns the proposal to remove the wood shingle pent roof and restore the fire damage non-historic first story exterior to its historic to a historic design.

The property at 151, 153 North Market Street was first depicted on the 1887 sandboard fire insurance map as a two-story brick building with shingle roofing.

By 1922, the building expanded to its current footprint and incorporated a third story edition.

The building served as a commercial unit on the first floor and residential apartments on the remaining floors.

The first floor has evolved with uh window alterations and a pent roof.

The non-historic storefront is a first documented around 1977.

And in 1920, uh the property was severely damaged by a fire.

The property has been previously reviewed by the commission only for the upper portion of the building under HPC 23850.

Staff is unable to make a full assessment due to missing product literature and current photographs.

The applicant will need to update their application to clarify.

Um the scope of work is lacking details.

The description provided does not capture all work proposed on the drawings, and the drawings lack notes outlighting changes in proposed materials.

With the reinstallation of the storefront windows and doors, replacement of side doors and removal of the shingle pent roof feature and installing a new opening at the rear.

Drawing Cero Zero One indicates areas of the storefront entries will be recessed, replicating the historic design on the northeast corner and east elevation facing market street.

The drawings indicate that the bay is on the north elevation fronting second street will not be projecting from the facade as documented on the historic images.

Staff encourages exploring this detail to in the final design.

Could you show on the table there?

So it's uh shown on your base screen drawing C001.

Okay.

Sure, we have do we have pictures?

Do you have pictures?

All I got was a number of photos.

Uh I got seven pages of fine photo, stand more.

That's not good enough.

We um I do apologize for that.

In the PDF form, they before they got processed, they looked perfectly clear.

Um did I don't know if we we had an issue with another property with blurry images.

Tansy, were you aware of this one?

Of this was the one that we were aware of, the one that for um Ryan's case was the one that we weren't aware of.

Okay.

Um, but I do know some commission members picked up the packet before we could rectify the change, but we rectified it online.

I think I was number one.

Oh so I I think maybe what we'll do is we'll go ahead and reissue that with the next for the next meeting, just so it's publicly available and in your packets.

Does anybody else need a uh copy from Tansy?

She has an extra image.

Yeah, go oh, you have multiple, go ahead and pass those around, thank you.

Christina, remind me what year the sort of team was that one.

I think sixty-eight.

Sixty-eight?

Yes, it was one of the first ones.

Well, then how did we get this uh roof edition?

How did we get approved at 77?

Don't talk to me.

I I wasn't even born.

I think I can see how they log open.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was the 70s, right?

Yeah.

Once again, this is a building that will be great to see come back to life.

A very important location, and uh I've been watching your progress as you're going along over there.

So I'm really excited to see this facade update that you're presenting.

So that one needs to be acknowledged.

Yes.

Um so we see here on C001.

Um, Liam, could you show us that recess entry on North Market Street?

This one perfect.

And um on historic photos, Sarah on the north elevation.

The historic photos show that they punch out.

Yeah, they're like more of a bay window.

Yeah.

There's a bay window here on the historic pictures.

It doesn't exist now.

Doesn't exist now.

Right now, your proposal does not include is it's not the proposal isn't a a full restoration.

Restoration, yeah.

It's more of back to the style of windows that was previously there.

Okay.

Gotcha.

When we say previously there, previously when.

Before 1977.

Then after 1897.

And we do have some pictures in here that give you they're not the best documentary evidence, but they do give you some good clues of what it was like.

Are there any cars in the I I will say the unknown date photograph that you have on page six?

Do not quote me on this.

I'm not a car expert, but that looks like a Ford Galaxy.

And it might that was in production in 1962.

So between this.

Two questions for Sarah or Liam, whoever knows the answer to this.

Were there uh first question is was that Carrera glass below there the black on the at the bottom of the historic photos?

That's my first question.

Oh, I don't know if I could tell.

And the second question was there one storefront there or two?

I believe historically two, because you do have two awnings represented.

There is, yeah, there is another window behind that awning, which you can actually see from the inside of the space.

So that was just one space though inside there.

There are so it's a wall addresses.

There's a was there a wall dividing.

There's a wall dividing.

Okay.

So it is two commercial spaces.

Okay.

151 and 153.

So I I just want to go back to Christianity to your comment.

So if we're looking at image five, the undated one or the date unknown.

Is that what you're intending to give us back?

As far as that overhang of the, I don't know, whatever you're calling that above the window.

The cornice.

Yes.

Would you like the cornice?

Oh yes.

Is a good question.

Yes.

The answer is yes.

Always give us a cornice.

That's a good one.

That's a very good one.

And there's a uh something similar across the street.

Um trying to think the candy floor.

The clay and a garden store.

Uh yeah.

The cornice was deep enough and we allowed for recessed down lights inside the cornice, which generally not typical.

It does look sharp it'll give you an option to put lighting along the storefront where you may not ha otherwise have a lot of options.

So I do know it's not in this, but there will be commercial or tenant signage eventually on that.

So we'd probably look at that at that juncture.

I'm just gonna go back because I again I've asked about that on the front or on that angled door.

But we're talking about that full length across the front of both those buildings, those addresses.

But how about here on the side?

Is that are you planning on duplicating that again or replicating that?

So on the side we are not gonna judge it out as a bay, like currently, I don't think we're taking up the sidewalk space again.

It's kind of a tight sidewalk right there.

Yeah.

And then it chances for commercial tenants to actually have space outside.

Um that's fair.

What's the material that you're proposing kind of underneath the window area?

Is it consistent throughout the whole thing?

Yeah, so I would think that we would it's a panelized something fibers vent, metal haven probably metal.

Like you want.

Bless your heart.

Um so this wood wood panels would probably be my first thought.

It it does look like it's in most masonry in some sections, except I see paneling um on the projecting windows, which make me think like a paneled wood would look good.

I I do think that's would you be up for a composite just given the wear and tear of it being on the street?

I'm like worried about road salt and everything else.

I mean, I remember before they put it that panel.

I do I do appreciate that concern.

I don't think we've ever approved this the cement board siding on that base.

Yeah, no, it's just yeah.

I do get the wearing pointer and then I mean the commercial tenant that's going in is like a dog cafe.

So I'm just thinking about all that.

Um what we'll we'll get into that at the later meeting.

I'll I'll let the commission do that because that that would certainly be a deviation.

Yeah.

And and from staff's perspective, you know Sarah, she's very staff perspective.

We're always going to be the most conservative, so we're gonna we're gonna be able to do that.

I totally it's my night.

Um but to get some feedback from the commission about the material underneath the windows, uh, what that should be.

I think Liam's looking for a deviation to use some cement board that that might be a little bit hardier than a traditional wood.

Yeah, I'm just wondering about wood given that it's a busy sidewalk next to a busy street, you know, wear and tear.

Do you have room for stone or brick there?

Or that would be nice.

Or I'm sorry, it was that material can't remember.

Career glass?

Career glass.

Well, they don't make that anymore, I don't think.

I'll look into it.

Something similar.

Um yeah, I'd be kind of averse to um uh cement tissue material for this type of uh building.

Yeah, I don't yeah, you're right, I don't think wood is gonna be durable enough.

Or even the seedmentitious siding, but um even a real thin brick veneer or stone, real stone, something that's real stone or real brick.

And then I think even if it's a thin material.

Okay.

Yeah.

So we'll definitely want product information on whatever that material is.

Yeah, have to find out what that is.

Not all veneers and stones are created created with the colour.

How hard would it be to get the uh brick that matched the brick on the rest of the building?

Um bricks you can match, but they do look different given when you install age mortar color, it's not an exact science.

So would it be that noticeable that far apart, right?

We we've got quite a distance from the upper brick.

I I think you'd be more concerned about the brick next to it, right?

There is brick on the uh side elevation.

Right.

Yeah.

So that's where most concerned is on that north elevation on a 2010.

I think given the design of the storefronts with the paneling, I'm personally okay with the fiber cement option.

I think a little the little recess panels, I think that makes sense.

I don't think it makes sense to do something else on the side and then an infill of brick right there.

You you had um could prior to the fire.

Sorry.

I know I'm sorry.

You had prior to the fire, some paneling.

Was that already wood?

Do you know?

I think I can still see it when I drive by it going home.

So little peaks of it.

Are we talking about the pink or purple?

The purple.

Yeah.

Really?

It was even uh an MDO or even uh high density HDO plywood panel would I think hold up well.

Okay.

Uh so if you look at it, what's that called, Paul?

MDO, medium density, uh HDOs, high density, uh usually on boats and and such.

Signage.

It's used on a lot of signs.

Signage.

It's just a more durable plywood with a nice smooth surface.

But but if water gets into it though, it's it's well HDO would be waterproof glues.

Yeah.

Like marine grade.

Okay.

So if we look at image four on page five and image five or page six.

Hey Charles, can you uh Charlie, can you turn your mic on?

Thank you.

So if we look at image four on page five and image five on page six, you can see uh it's I've seen this before.

It's more of a that dark band along the sidewalk.

It's uh kind of a glass-like uh um you sort of you see it in old storefronts.

I think that's the top glass that I was talking about.

Yeah, and it's got vents.

Um seems like there ought to be some sort of substitute for that.

It's more like that.

Um would be there's there's another building down further and across the street.

It's got it above.

Oh, it's definitely in in downtown.

I mean that's a short.

I don't know what the modern equivalent for it though is.

It's classy looking is what it is.

Yeah.

I'm not sure brick were the brick that we if we chose brick, it would it's not gonna match.

Um anyway, I'm gonna do that.

But this is a really good image.

If you choose brick, you and a b and uh um abandon this possibility.

You um eliminate a period, uh uh historic period.

I mean this this treatment that we're recognizing as classy um represents uh right.

The intention is to kind of pay homage to this and bring it up too.

I mean it was a was there it's it's uh I mean to to the extent that this will create variety in the the you know the streetscape of what sometimes looks like a monochromatic or a mono historic street escape.

Um this would be essential.

I mean this is this is 20th century.

I mean to to the extent that this will create variety in the the you know the streetscape of of what sometimes looks like a monochromatic or a mono historic street escape um this would be essential I mean this is this is 20th century this is uh this is an equally um attractive historic architectural period which is captured in large part because of that that trim um and uh it's very distinctive from right the 19th century look that we have in many of the other buildings right it's uh post dates I mean all of that those are renovate those are renovations I mean the the house the building itself is a lot older than those storefronts that was something that was done in the twenties or the 30s but but it gives the variety to the um I agree do you have enough guidance or inspiration for that more information cornice and some panel yeah okay for that um so there is a proposal to remove that pent roof nobody's gonna argue that one right well I don't wait against that just double checking I I think Christina cried with joy when we thought we take it on yeah that was private sorry off the racket so at one point that corner was called the s the sweetest corner in town because there was um uh some sort of spray machine that's actually sprayed perfume out of there when you walk by yeah yeah then the candy store across the street yeah well let's let's recommend that no no let's not do let's not do that that was from the pent roof era that might have caused the pent roof caused the pent roof it it was it came with the pit roof yeah and the and the smaller windows may help cover the wet dog smell but yeah they're not gonna be red they'll get dried that's right okay um speaking of walls and some masonry um I it's noted somewhere that there's gonna be some infill um but it's not exactly clear I do know that there's gonna be a new opening potentially on the rear of the building there are doors that are needing to go in just for egress okay uh and then those would just be hollow metal doors in the alley and where's the infill that can you show that elevation sorry I inherited this job so I'm not entirely I saw it so backfill as needed I believe it's a note four oh four and that is noted here for where we're making new door openings in the back.

And that's a very narrow it is area.

Yeah.

And very difficult to see from the street right even when you're on the I don't think you can if you're really unless you're really looking at you can when you're looking at if you're trying like that right okay last um on the doors um we're proposing replacement of the storefront doorways and the doorways along West Second Street no product literature was provided per the guidelines it's recommended that the replacement doors matches the historic in terms of design and materials if the design and materials of the original doors unknown then it must be compatible to the period and style of the building um it looks like full light wood wind wood doors is that something yeah it would be that or um aluminum to match the rest of those doorprint system but we can do wood I'm sorry I've gotten lost now are we on second street or are we on market street?

Believe she's talking about this door.

Ooh I thought she was talking about the corner I totally was talking about the corner sorry.

Then yes that would be a full light storefront to match the rest of the system.

Aluminum or wood I think that's the question for the reminiscing the storefront okay yeah kind of well from the photo back on page six image five looks more like a full light door with a general you would probably need a uh taller um rail bottom rail and seems to have a wider profile around the styles and top rail so not a real thin storefront door but something with wider styles and rails right so which you would propose or some somewhere or like a full light door we are proposing a full light door.

So not a real thin storefront door, but something with wider styles and rails.

Right.

Is that what you would propose or something somewhere?

Or like a full light door.

We are proposing a full light door.

Yeah, okay.

But something like this in this image would be good.

And because of that, that's why I was thinking wood.

Right.

So you want more of a half-light door with wood and like what's currently there?

Not a half light.

Three quarters.

Three quarters.

Okay.

Just with like a nice thick panel on the bottom.

All right.

And then or I'm sorry, do you have storefront right adjacent to that in that corner?

I mean correct.

Why wouldn't the door just be aluminum storefront, Christina?

Or you just want well, I am just looking at this historic photo.

I mean so close.

Sorry, I didn't provide a floor plan, but given that we have these alcoves, like that these are glazed, and that's where the door is.

So it's all part of the same thing.

And then the other door is here as part of this glazing.

It looks like that door has some sort of thick surround, like it's not part of the door.

It's the framing.

Right.

I don't know what that is.

To be honest.

I I'd have to go back out to look at it.

It's not there though right now, right?

It's that's a gone feature.

That's uh yeah.

I'll let the commission talk more about what doors they think are appropriate.

Given they're two different addresses, I think they can be different depending on what you've got going on there.

Okay.

I know those doors are proposed for replacement.

Is that a replacement in kind?

I think one's uh I think one is gone from the fire, and you're turning to a half-light.

We are talking about these two yes, so replacement in kind, and then that door is still there.

That's what you're just keeping it.

That's as far as I know.

Okay.

And we'll update you if that changes.

And the half-light, is that also is that a wood door?

I believe that's just existing to remain.

I don't call it out.

Oh, I thought I saw it was gone.

I might be flywood over at the moment.

I will I will look at that just to make sure.

What is the material of the sign boards between the lower and upper windows on the first on those door front?

Uh if we're going with the plywood method for the bottom panels, I would match that around and paint it.

I think just to bent plate metal to match the storefront or so.

That's yeah, it was either going to be kind of storefront adjacent, the metal bent um we're talking about like these.

Yeah.

I think I I definitely wanted some more detail of what that what that is.

Materials and molding.

As well as the main storefront I presume would be clear glass.

Then you have the sign band.

The transom above that.

Are you proposing clear glass?

Is that open to the interior or would it be a it's open to the interior?

Currently it would be clear glass as well.

Clear on the upper transit on both the side.

Yeah, it's it's a pretty tall space in there and it will be nice to get all the light in.

It appears on I don't know, on these photos if they're filled in or if there's a textured or pattern glass there.

I don't know if I would object to changing the glass type there just to give some variety, but on the front, but the side here.

I don't believe they are currently.

Okay.

Because I they have money, you know, for for that.

I'll I'll let the owner know.

Good point.

That was over, but we need to submit that you didn't know.

I think they get I I'd hate to speak.

Yeah.

I don't know if it sometimes these older storefronts have very thin profile and the glasses right, you know, even with the mullions.

I don't know if you know enough yet if the glass would be kind of at the front or the middle or the rear of the frame, aluminum frame, or uh it looked like some of your elevations on the storefront.

Yeah, yeah, the frame but a thinner vertical mullion at the midpoint, or do you know yet kind of I think it would so we we were playing on the conner system and I would say it's probably closer to the front, but still has like a jam that comes out a little bit past the actual glazing.

Yeah, I think that would be a nice feature instead of seeing more storefront, you're seeing just a very thin profile of the storefront.

Right with the glass very close to that front edge would be nice.

I agree.

So when we have I'm sorry, you had comments about signage either taking it off.

It's kind of generic the way it's shown, but I don't know if you want no I I think they're just a placeholder for right now.

So yes, we're not planning on putting signage on the building.

I'll just remove it.

But it says signage.

Um we have a last few couple comments.

I know that you're installing vents on the uh about two exhaust vents on the rear of the building.

Um the guidelines, they can be round, rectangular, or square.

They should be installed in non-visible locations, color mattress to the wall or trim unless clear.

Um and you just need to provide me with that product clutter for it.

I'll get you that.

I do have a question of uh will you be installing any new lighting fixtures for the uh storefront?

Nothing currently.

Okay.

So that yeah.

Okay.

And then just you know, for clarification and with your resubmission, so that would be March 30th at 11 a.m.

for the April 9th hearing.

I think you might need a little bit more time.

Yeah, I was about to say what's the one after that.

Let me check.

Because I'm out Monday and I already know my day is like a half day tomorrow after this, so um because I do think if you just submit one strong clear package, we just go straight to hearing.

That's my hope.

Yeah.

So for the April 23rd hearing, I would need a resubmission by April 13th.

Understood.

Okay.

11 o'clock.

Yep.

Okay.

I would add maybe uh talking about the lighting in in general, but uh when you do have signage there, you're probably gonna want some light on the signage.

There's guidelines as far as you know, lighted signs versus I don't know what to call what the no externally lit signs.

Yeah, no internally lit signs.

Right.

So you even if you're not showing these signings, you might anticipate what you might be providing for lighting for future signage, but even if you don't install it right away, but just really exciting proposal though, so thank you.

Okay, thank you.

Yeah, we'll see.

Lament sometimes the historic uh elements we lose, but uh this time we're gaining some back, so that's great.

Yes.

And thank you, Sarah, for finding all those great photos.

That was with the help of Jody from Heritage Frederick.

Wonderful.

He's a doll.

Wow.

Thank you again.

All right, thank you.

And nobody has anything else.

We are adjourned.

Oh I told you.

Change the chair.

Well you're very popular.

I know I'm I Paul is generous and now Ed is generous.

Um they know my driving record, maybe No, I'm not sure.

But you do always miss you're always wanting to turn left on seven.

Every single time it's like the first time she said,